Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. Third Session. Second Assembly. 15th April, 1970 to 3rd June, 1970
115 52
English Pages [374] Year 1970
Polecaj historie
Table of contents :
Front Cover
Suspension
Consultation with Transkei Government to precede
MOSHESH, the Hon Chief J D (Minister of the Interior)
Establishment of Factories in the Transkei
Application of Wage Regulations to Transkei
Citation preview
Govt.
Publs.
Dept.
TRANSKEI
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY DEBATES
THIRD SESSION
SECOND ASSEMBLY
15 APRIL TO 3 JUNE 1970
GOVT PUBLS DEPT
GPP J 707
T3 · T732
1970
PUBLS DEPT
A
Republic
of South
Africa
Government
Transkei ,
a
nyam
yama
Debates ,
of the
Transkei Legislative Assembly
Third
Session
Second Assembly
April ,
1970
to
3rd June ,
1970
Indiana University JUL 1 6 1971 Library
XXXXXXX ********** *
15th
Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly
by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty . ) Ltd. , Umtata
No. of Copies Printed : Price per Copy
1,000
: R1.00
INDEX A
Page Absence , Chief C. Mditshwa
....
....
....
....
Address , Opening by the hon. the Commissioner General for the Xhosa National Unit W Mr. Hans Abraham .... .... .... .... Adjournment of Assembly .... .... .... .... Administration of Oath ... .... .... .... Amendment , Notice of ....
.... ....
Appointment of Committee
....
....
1 342 4, 134 190
.... .... ....
.... ....
Amendment of Republican Proclamation controlling Irri.... .... .... .... .... .... gation .... Announcements .... ....
190
....
.... 7 , 17 ,
.... 30 ,
275 ,
299
86 ,
95 ,
53 ,
116 , 147 , 190 , 201 , 248 , 260 , 281 , 295 , 329 , 342 7 .... ....
....
Appointment of Committee of Inquiry to enquire into .... .... soil conservation complaints
Appointment of Inspection team to investigate conditions .... .... .... of roads and bridges ... ....
....
321 , 326 ,
333
293 ,
301
17 , 134, 235 , 270 ,
281
.... 71.
30 80
....
B
Bills , Notices of
....
....
Bills : Appropriation
.... ....
(First Reading) (Second Reading) (Committee of Supply)
95 , 106 , 116 , 123 , 135 , 148 , 156 , 163 , 169 , 178 , 190 , 201 , 212 , 225 .... 235 ....
....
(Third Reading) Transkeian Finance
....
.... ....
.... ....
.... ....
.... ....
....
....
....
.... .... .... .... (Third Reading) Transkeian Government Service Pensions
.... ....
....
.... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... (Third Reading) Transkeian Government Service Amendment
.... ....
(First Reading) (Second Reading) (Committee Stage)
.... ....
....
.... ....
(Third Reading) Transkeian Immovable Property Tax .... (First Reading) (Second Reading) (Committee Stage)
(First Reading)
(Second Reading) (Committee Stage)
(First Reading) (Second Reading) (Committee Stage) (Third Reading)
.... ....
....
.... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... .... .... .... 320 , 329 ,
147 227
235 249 260 295 308 329 285 297 315
342 295
.... .... .... ....
.... .... ....
.... .... ....
318 329
.... ....
342
C
Committee of Ways and Means .... .... Consultation with Transkei Government to precede repatriation of Transkei citizens .... .... Consultation with Republican Government re- lifting of influx control regulations .... .... .... ....
....
....
.... ....
....
229 ,
249
240 251
Creation of New Chieftainship : Matyengqina Tribal Au.... .... .... .... .... .... thority
....
.... 134, 147,
228
D
....
Documents , Tabling of....
8, 295 ,
17 ,
53 , 106 , 147 , 260 ,
E
Establishment of Factories in Transkei
259,
....
260
I Introduction of cattle into the Transkei
....
....
....
....
.... ....
.... ....
.... ....
....
....
....
275
....
L
Leave of Absence : Chief C. Mditshwa
190
....
M Misconduct .... Motion, Notices of
....
.... ....
....
.... ....
.... ....
8,
281 , 17,
285 134
4,
134
30 ,
41 ,
N
New Members , Administration of Oath to No Confidence .... .... .... .... Notice of Amendment .... Notices of Bills .... Notices of Motion ....
.... .... ....
.... .... ....
....
....
....
....
.... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... 9, 8, 53, 66 , ....
19 , 74 ....
23,
190
....
17 , 134 , 235 , 270 , 8, 17, ....
281 134
O
Oath, Administration of .... Obituary .... Opening Address
.... ....
Orthopaedic Doctor to visit Umtata monthly
Questions
....
....
....
.... .... .... ....
....
4,
134
6 , 122 ,
162 1 267
....
86, 134 , 169 , 224 ,
282
.... 280 , 303 , 243 , ....
330 250
R
Raising stipends of headmen and paying sub-headmen Reduction of Penalties under Road Transportation Act Report of Sessional Committee on Public Accounts , .... .... .... .... .... Tabling of Request to add nutritious ingredients to mealie meal Request for a resident doctor at Emjanyana Leper and .... .... .... .... .... T.B. Hospital
....
.... ....
295
....
.... ....
276
....
....
276
....
Request to have districts of Elliot , Maclear , Matatiele , Mt. Currie , Umzimkulu and Port St. John's incorpo.... .... .... rated in Transkei .... ....
....
....
89
Request to Umtata Town Council to allow people to have .... .... fresh produce hawkers ' Licences Roll Call .... .... .... .... ....
.... ....
.... ....
287 5
S
Sale of Former Bantu Trust Civil Servants ' Houses .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Suspension
....
.... ....
....
.... 281 ,
261
285
T
Tabling of Documents ....
....
....
Title Deeds for Municipal Site Owners
....
....
....
....
....
....
8, 295
17 ,
53 , 106 , 147 , 260 , ....
268,
270
U
Unrest of Shawbury Institution
....
260
..... W
Writing off of Ploughing Aid debts for 1968 .... Workmen's Compensation to be paid as Recipient desires .... .... .... .... ....
.... ....
....
....
....
321
....
267
INDEX TO MINISTERS ' SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE POLICY SPEECHES . MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance ) . Appropriation Bills 71 , 80 .... .... .... .... (Second Reading) 95 .... .... .... (Committee of Supply) Transkeian Finance 227 .... .... (Second Reading) 235 .... .... .... (Committee Stage ) Transkeian Immovable Property Tax .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage) Transkei Government Service Amendment .... .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage) Budget Speech : 71 74 95 - 100 : Policy Speech
Supply Vote 1
:
....
.... ....
.... ....
.... ....
295 308
....
....
....
....
318 329
....
....
297 315
100 - 116
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G.M.M. (Minister of Justice ) . Policy Speech Supply Vote 2
: :
140 - 142 142 - 162
NDAMSE, the Honourable Mr. C.M. (Minister of Education) . Policy Speech : 116 - 120 : 120-140 Supply Vote 3
MOSHESH, the Hon. Chief J.D. ( Minister of the Interior) . Transkeian Government Service Pensions .... .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage) : 163 - 166 Policy Speech
Supply Vote 4
:
.... ....
166 - 178
BULUBE , the Honourable Mr. N.P. (Minister of Agriculture ) . : 179 - 182 Policy Speech : 182 - 206 Supply Vote 5
SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S.N. ( Minister of Roads and Works ) . : 206 - 210 Policy Speech : 210 - 227 Supply Vote 6
INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH DURING 1970 ASSEMBLY. Motion No.
1
Subject Matter
No Confidence
....
....
Pages
8,
9,
19.
23, 53,
30 , 66 ,
41 , 74
3
Raising the stipends of headmen and paying sub-headmen .... .... .... .... .... .... 280 , 303,
330
4
Request to Umtata Town Council to allow people to .... .... have fresh produce hawkers ' licences Book Fees and Distribution of School Books .... .... .... .... (withdrawn)
5
....
....
....
287 293
.... 6
7
Appointment of Inspection team to investigate the condition of roads and bridges in the Transkei .... Reduction of Penalties under Road Transportation Act.... .... .... .... .... ....
293 ,
301
243 ,
250
8
Request to add nutritious ingredients to mealie meal to be sold in the Transkei .... .... .... ....
276
9
Request for a resident doctor at Emjanyana Leper and T.B. Hospital .... .... .... .... ....
276
11
Request to Republican Government to incorporate districts of Elliot, Maclear , Matatiele , Mt. Currie , Umzimkulu and Port St. John's in the Transkei ....
89
18
Consultation with Transkei Government to precede repartiation into the Transkei .... .... .... .... Orthopaedic Doctor to visit Umtata monthly Sale of Former Bantu Trust Civil Servants ' Houses ·· Introduction of cattle into the Transkei .... .... Establishment of Factories in the Transkei ....
19 33 36 38 42
43 44 45
48
49
50 51
52
229 ,
240 267 261 275
259,
260
Appointment of Committee of Inquiry to enquire into .... 321 , 326 , soil conservation complaints .... .... Writing off of Ploughing aid debts for 1968 ....
333 321
Consultation with Republican Government re - lifting .... of influx control regulations .... ....
251
Application of Wage Regulations to Transkei .... .... .... .... (withdrawn) Workmen's Compensation to be paid as recipient desires .... .... .... .... ....
....
276
....
267
Amendment of Republicant Proclamation controlling .... .... .... .... .... Irrigation .... Title deeds to all municipal areas site owners Request to put Transkeian proffessional and medical
275 , 268,
staff, nurses teachers etc at par salaries with .... .... other racial groups (withdrawn) .... Tribal : Matyengqina Creation of New Chieftainship .... 134, 147 , .... .... .... Authority : Umtata ...
299 270
268
228
DRUG TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION
die nuwe Republikeinse wetgewing, vir ' n verbeterde basis van belasting , insluitende ' n regverdiger verspreiding van die belastingslas , ' n lopende betaalstelsel en algemeen verbeterde belastingsmatreëls , voorsiening maak, is verder ook prysenswaardig.
1970
The third session of the second Transkeian Legislative Assembly opened in the Assembly Hall at 10.30 a.m. on bod
Waar ' n mens ookal gan word die vraagstuk van ekonomiese ontwikkeling in die Transkei bespreek. Wat hierdie onderwerp betref kan ek bloot net konstateer dat van al die onderontwikkelde lande in Afrika die Transkei die grootste kans op ekonomiese sukses het. Daar is baie redes ter ondersteuning van hierdie standpunt maar dit is voldoende om te sê dat die Transkei aangrensend aan die moderne en snel-ontwikkelende ekonomie van die Republiek is.
WEDNESDAY, 15TH APRIL, 1970 with the Chairman, Mr. M.H. Canca , in the Chair .
Prayers were read. The Government Notice summoning the Assembly was read. The Chairman announced the Honourable the Commissioner-General for the Xhosa National Unit, Mr. J.H. Abraham.
Soos te verwagte is in ' n ontwikkelende Tuisland, het die totale getal poste op die vaste diensstaat van die Regeringsdiens (uitgeslote onderwysers , polisiemanne en arbeiders ) ook in 1969 geleidelik toegeneem - in werklikheid met 3.4% van 3460 tot 3576. Nieteenstaande hierdie uitbreiding was dit tog nog moontlik om die aantal poste wat deur gesekondeerde Republikeinse beamptes gevul word te verminder met 'n verdere 1 % van 377 (10.8% van die diensstaat) na 349 ( 9.8% van die diensstaat) waaruit die opkoms van opgeleide Transkeise toesighoudende- en beheereenhede in alle departemente duidelik blyk.
TOESPRAAK GELEWER DEUR SY EDELE J.H. ABRAHAM , KOMMISSARIS-GENERAAL VIR DIE XHOSA VOLKSEENHEID . Mnr. die Voorsitter en agbare lede van die Wetgewende Vergadering . Dit is met groot dankbaarheid dat ek kan aankondig dat die afgelope jaar weereens ' n jaar van vrede en vooruitgang vir die Transkei en sy mense was . Stabiele regering onder leiding van ' n verantwoordelike Kabinet was gedurende die afgelope 7 jaar , die waarmerk van hierdie jong staat. Aangesien jong state gewoonlik met allerlei moeilikhede wat eie is aan die wordingsproses te kampe kry is dit van belang om daarop te let dat hierdie staat baie min sulke moeilikhede ondervind het en dat hy jaar na jaar kon terugkyk op sukses en die bevrediging van selfbeskikking kon smaak.
In-diens opleiding asook akademiese opleiding het soos in die verlede ook in 1969 die aandag van die Regeringsdienskommissie geniet. Netsoos in vorige jare het beurse vir voltydse studie uitstekende resultate opgelewer. Die basis waarop toekomstige beurse toegeken sal word is heelwat meer selektief gemaak en dit word vertrou dat die moontlike minder in getal maar meer begaafde studente wat van nou af aan op hierdie wyse bygestaan gaan word, 'n beter slaagsyfer sal lewer .
By die opening van byna elke sitting van hierdie Vergadering het die hoogwaardigheidsbekleërs wat die openingsredes gelewer het , dit goedgevind om te let op en selfs verbaas te staan oor die verantwoordelike wyse waarop finansies in die Transkei beheer word. Vanaf sy totstandkoming was ek ' n waarnemer ter plaatse van selfregering in werking in die Transkei en gedurende hierdie tydperk het ek eerstehandse kennis opgedoen wat my instaat stel om te bevestig dat finansies , wat die grondslag van enige regering is , om die minste te sê, fundamenteel gesond in die Transkei is .
In ' n poging om die doeltreffendheid van plaaslike- en streeksbestuur te bevorder is daar verlede jaar kursusse vir die hoofde van owerhede aangebied. Die proefneming was so geslaagd dat u regering besluit het om soortgelyke kursusse vir die hele negehonderd negeen-veertig kapteins en hoofmanne in die Transkei aan te bied in ' n poging om die stam- en streeksowerhede nog meer te aktiveer en om die bekwaamheid van die betrokke persone te verbeter .
Inkomste uit plaaslike bronne het, byvoorbeeld, met ongeveer 76% in sewe begrotingsjare gestyg vanaf R3.1 miljoen na 'n geraamde R5 miljoen vir die huidige jaar. Dit bewys vir my dat u Regering nie daarmee tevrede is om vir sy groei net op skenkings van die Republiek aangewese te wees nie en dit is prysenswaardig dat hierdie Vergadering die beginsel dat, as eiendom wat aan lede van ander rasse behoort , belas moet word , Transkeise burgers ook dieselfde belasting behoort te betaal aanvaar het.
Meer as die helfte van die totale aantal stamowerhede het alreeds hulle eie hofgeboue en kantore en dit word vertrou dat daar hierdie jaar heelwat by hierdie getal gevoeg sal word. Die volgende wetgewing word vir die huidige sitting beoog : -
(a) 'n Begroting; (b) ' n Transkeise Wet op Regeringsdienspensioene ; (c) ' n Belasting Wysigingswet; (d) ' n Wet op Belasting op Vaste Eeiendom ; (e) 'n Wysigingswet op Transkeise Owerhede.
U Transkeise Belastingwet , wat gedurende sy laaste afgelope sitting deur hierdie Vergadering aanvaar is en wat, in ooreenstemming met 1.
eers nadat hulle universiteitsopleiding geniet het.
Omdat 'n groot behoefte by verskillende departemente ontstaan het om hulle eie rekeninge afdelings daargestel te kry , is daar besluit om 'n begin te maak met die desentralisasie van die Afdeling Rekening om sodoende mettertyd aan die departemente Landbou en Bosbou , Onderwys en Paaie en Werke hulle eie rekenmeester te gee. Alhoewel daar nog nie beamptes is wat tot die range bevorder kan word nie , is die poste reeds geskep sodat daar niks sal wees om hulle op hulle pad na bevordering te strem nie.
Die Departement beplan en oorweeg alle moontlikhede om meer fasiliteite te skep vir hoërskole. Dit sal die aantal matrikulante opstoot, maar nog nie die probleem oplos nie . Ek moet daarop wys dat dit nie die taak van die Onderwys-departement is om mense vir bepaalde beroepe op te lei nie. As 'n matrikulant die skool verlaat en by die Staatsdiens aansluit, moet hy opleiding ontvang om sy werk te kan doen. As sy maat deur die bank in diens geneem word, is dit hul taak om hom voor te berei vir sy werk . Dit geld ook vir ander beroepe . Slegs in die geval van onderwysersopleiding word die student vir 'n bepaalde beroep Selfs in die handels- , beroep- en opgelei . tegniese skole word die studente maar net voorberei vir ' n bepaalde beroep. Die afronding geskied nadat hulle die skool verlaat het.
Die sentrale Rekenings van die Transkeise Regering het as gevolg van die geweldige uitbreidings in alle sfere van staatsadministrasie , die stadium bereik waar ' n reken-outomaat (of komper soos dit nou bekend staan) van die heel modernste ontwerp in gebruik geneem moes word. Die Departement van Onderwys vind dit moeilik om finansieel tred te hou met die geweldige tempo waarmee die skool -bevolking aangroei en die gevolglike uitbreidings wat nodig is.
Die onderwyskursusse en leerplanne van ons skole is bedoel vir die algemene vorming van die leerling. Die klem val op opvoeding, karaktervorming , persoonlikheidsontwikkeling , m.a.w. die kind word gehelp in sy ontwikkeling van Die man, die kindstadium na volwassenheid. vrou, wat op die lande , in die huis , op die paaie , in die myne , in fabrieke of waar ook al , gaan werk, het net soveel reg en aanspraak op die algemeen vormende onderwys as die bevoorregte student wat na matriek universiteit toe gaan.
Op primêre skoolvlak styg die inskrywing jaarliks met 25,000 nuwe leerlinge . Dit beteken dat die aantal onderwysers en klaskamers jaarliks met 500 moet styg. Die aantal St. 6-kandidate het aan die einde van 1969 van 13,000 na 16,000 gestyg. Van hulle het ongeveer 9,600 gekwalifiseer vir toelating tot sekondêre skole. Daar was ongeveer 3,600 Juniorsertifikaatkandidate , sodat die aanwas in die sekondêre skole 6,000 aan die begin van hierdie jaar was . Bereken teen 40 studente per onderwyser beteken dit 'n verdere 150 addisionele leerkragte en net soveel klaskamers .
Almal moet in die geleentheid gestel word om 'n bepaalde peil in die onderwys te bereik, noem dit die afskryf van ' n volkseksamen. Daarna moet daar gedifferensieer word tussen hulle wat kwalifiseer vir verdere opleiding in akademiese rigting en die ander wat handels- , tegniese en vakmansrigtings wil en moet volg.
In die hoërskole het 320 kandidate die finale eksamens afgelê. Van hulle het 63% geslaag; 2% beter as die vorige jaar.
Daar is gedurende die afgelope jaar besonder goeie vordering gemaak met die opleiding van Transkeise burgers in die Department van Justisie . Reeds is daar Transkeise burgers aangestel as magistrate in drie Transkeise Gedurende die afgelope jaar is agt distrikte. gesekondeerde amptenare vervang deur Transkeise burgers . Daar was aan die einde van verlede jaar 354 poste op die diensstaat van die Departement van Justisie en hiervan was 286 of 82% beklee deur Transkeise burgers . Daar is 10 beamptes van hierdie Departement wat aan die Universiteit van Fort Hare studeer met beurse wat vir die doel beskikbaar gestel word. Hierbenewens is daar twee amptenare van die Departement wat spesiaal afgesonder is vir opleidingsdoeleindes. Die tien beamptes wat aan die Universiteit van Fort Hare studeer , met Departementele beurse , het besonder goed presteer gedurende die afgelope jaar. Die huidige beursstelsel , waarvolgens studente vir 50 % van hul studiekoste gesubsidieer word , word vervang en in die toekoms sal studente 'n 100% subsidie kan ontvang , afhangende van hul prestasies .
Dit word verwag dat die inskrywing in die hoërskole vanjaar sal styg van 1,100 tot 1,500 , wat meebring dat voorsiening gemaak moet word vir 'n addisionele 10-tal onderwysers en dieselfde hoeveelheid klaskamers . Geen Regering kan egter toelaat dat die inkomstebesteding en -verspreiding tussen die verskillende departemente buite verhouding raak nie , omdat so iets die algemene ontwikkeling van die land as geheel baie nadelig kan tref, en daarom moet die departement van Onderwys berus by ' n uitbreiding van 5% . 'n Baie aktuele probleem in die Transkei is die opleiding van mannekrag veral van studente wat in die Juniorsertifikaat - eksamen geslaag het. Die antwoord skyn, meer hoërskole te wees . Op die oomblik slaag ongeveer 200 kandidate jaarliks in die matriek-eksamen. Uit hierdie getal moet die vakante klerikale , onderwys en professionele poste gevul word . In baie gevalle
Die stelsel van stamhowe funksioneer bevredigend en speel ' n baie belangrike rol in die lewe van die plattelandse bevolking. Die kapteins 2.
Continued drought until the present moment has , however, shattered these prospects .
en hoofmanne besleg ' n menigte geskille . Weens gebrek aan gekwalifiseerde personeel is die pligte van die distriksmagistrate nog steeds veeleisend. Hul probleme het aansienlik vermeerder vanweë die langdurige droogte wat die gebied gedurende die afgelope jare geteister het . Nietemin moet daar lof toegeswaai word aan die magistrate wat hul pligte met groot toewyding vervul het.
Special attention is being given to soil conservation and especially good progress is being made in the catchment area of the Lubisi dam so as to counteract the silting up of the dam.
Good progress is being made in the field of stock-breeding. Besides the supply of improved sires to them on a subsidised basis , farmers are becoming still more knowledgeable In this as to the correct handling of wool. connection the sharing sheds play an important role.
Waar die Transkei , na ons hoop , op die vooraand staan van verdere ekonomiese ontwikkelings is die Departement van Justisie en die Transkeise Regering bewus van sy verantwoordelikheid om wet en orde te handhaaf en ander funksies uit te oefen, wat bevorderlik is vir sodanige ekonomiese ontwikkeling .
The Veterinary Service is carrying out an important task in so far as it is still succeeding in controlling stock diseases. The Transkei has commenced training its own stock inspectors and the first students will qualify this year.
Benewens al hierdie bedrywighede en pligte van die Departement van Justisie was daar nog die Transkei Polisie aan wie se opleiding aandag geskenk moes word, dranklisensies wat moes uitgereik word en Padveiligheid, waaroor ' n wakende oog gehou moes word .
The forestry industry still reflects sound growth. The area under afforestation is increasing annually. The production of creosotetreated poles has been greatly increased since a new pressure cylinder was brought into service . More and more sawn timber is being produced and revenue for the Transkei from the timber industry is slowly but surely increasing . This industry is also an important source of employment for the population of the Transkei . The administration of the forestry industry has been considerably simplified with the coming into operation of the Transkeian Forestry Act.
The past year has again placed heavy demands on the Department of Agriculture which has since its inception always been handicapped by a shortage of personnel. As a result ofthe severe drought that was experienced during the 1968/69 season development work was greatly curtailed . Besides the unfavourable climatic conditions officials had to devote a great deal of their time to relief schemes in an attempt to relieve the effects of the drought.
Your Government has spent a considerable amount during the past financial year on the relief of distress in those districts of the Transkei which have been seriously stricken by unprecedented drought conditions . Approximately R650,000 was paid to labourers under the relief of distress scheme. In 1968 this amount was R370,000 and in addition an amount of R230,000 was spent on a feeding scheme for pre- school children and primary school pupils in 13 districts in the Transkei. Over and above this , considerable amounts have been spent on the purchase of fodder for cattle and loans to farmers to enable them to plough their lands mechanically .
Approximately 60,000 head of breeding stock was fed for almost 6 months at a cost of almost R7 per beast. An estimated 12% of the cattle died as a result of the drought and to enable farmers to plough their lands during the past season the Government once again made credit facilities available for the ploughing of lands by means of tractors . Furthermore a great deal of time was devoted to the organisation and supervision of work under the emergency relief scheme of the Department of Interior so as to enable the population to buy food as the maize crop was only one third of the normal crop.
The effects of the drought conditions during 1969 were also noticable in the labour sector. Labour supplied reached the record total of 174,223 units which represents an increase of about 19,000 over the previous year . Local labour bureaux contributed handsomely by recruiting 16,500 more workers than they did in 1968.
Progress was nevertheless made in various spheres. The co -operative movement reflects good progress . The total membership exceeds 10,000. During the current year approximately 1,000 probationary lessees will be established on the Qamata irrigation scheme and further irrigation possiblities are being intensively investigated.
The number of social pensioners increased by 9.7% during 1969 and over R3,000,000 was expended under this subhead during the past year .
With the advent of the new growing season the first Transkeian tea factory is expected to produce on a fairly large scale and further tea plantations are being developed.
It is expected that the new town of Maluti in the Ramohlakoana Administrative Area , Matatiele District, will be proclaimed in the near future and the marked interest thus far shown by prospective buyers bodes well for the development of Maluti as the cultural and commercial
The season up till two months ago was reasonably favourable and there were expectations that the maize crop would be much better this year than that of the past few years . 3.
centre of the Transkei in the Matatiele District. It is gratifying to state that the citizens of the Transkei have entered the commercial field with great fervour and that of the 314 Whiteowned trading stations taken over by the Xhosa Development Corporation during the past few years, 61 have thus far been purchased by Transkei entrepreneurs whilst 229 are managed by Transkei citizens with a view to eventual take-over.
new era with the completion of the Government Garage at Umtata, which provides parking for 100 vehicles .
The Department provides employment at present for 5,500 Transkei citizens in all grades from labourer to principal clerk and is to be regarded as one of the largest employers in the With the advent of the Technical Transkei. will be made with the training a start College of apprentices in the various trades .
The Department of Roads and Works has continued to provide essential services to the community and to the Government in the form of roads , bridges , buildings and transport.
To complete the picture of steady progress and development the activities of the Xhosa Development Corporation have been accelerated during the past year. The multi-million rand grain bag factory at Butterworth is under construction and the whole industrial complex at Butterworth is steadily developing into a major industrial concern .
During the past year the Department's Road Branch once again managed to maintain the network of Government roads , some 5,700 miles in extent. In addition new roads were provided for afforestation and agricultural projects inthe Lambasi area of Lusikisiki district and the Qamata irrigation scheme .
It is the wish and prayer of the South African Government that the cordial relations existing between itself and the Transkei should continue . Self-government in the Transkei has manifested itself as a boon to the citizens , launching the young state on the road to ever greater responsibilities and self-determination.
The increase in traffic resulted in increased expenditure on roads which rose from R682,093 for the 1964/65 financial year to R1,218,376 for the 1969/70 financial year. It is pleasing to report that the Road Branch's on-the-job training programme of road personnel has had good results and that twelve Transkei citizens have been appointed to posts of senior road foreman, road foreman and assistant road foreman .
It is my fervent prayer that the blessing of God Almighty descend upon this Assembly, guiding its members with wisdom and prudence .
It is now my pleasure to declare this , the third Session of the Second Legislative Assembly of the Transkei , formally opened.
The Department's Works Branch continued its building activities and provided office accommodation, school classrooms and hostels , agricultural project buildings and afforestation buildings , including large sawmill buildings. It may be of interest to note that over the period 1st April , 1964, to 31st March , 1970 , 441 permanent school classrooms have been provided.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 16th April, 1970.
THURSDAY, 16th APRIL , 1970 During the 1969/70 financial year contracts were awarded for the erection of two Teachers ' Training Colleges and hostels and for the administrative complex at Umtata which will provide office accommodation for 3 departments at present housed in temporary or prefabricated buildings.
Prayers were read.
ADMINISTRATION OF OATH TO NEW MEMBERS
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the following new members will subscribe to the oath in terms of rule 4. Each member shall be brought to the table by two members after his name has been read out: -
In Umtata the first Technical College for the Transkei was completed as well as a Vocational Training School at Lusikisiki . The expenditure on building activities , including erection and maintenance , increased from R127,350 for the 1964 financial year to R1,246,000 for the 1969 financial year.
Mr. Babini Langa Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Mr. Ntintise Lameck Madubela
The Works Branch's in- service training programme has also had good results and shortly eleven Transkei citizens will be considered for promotion to posts of works foreman and senior workman. The training programme also embraces the training of Transkei building contractors .
The new members took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
The Department's Transport Branch, which now controls 550 vehicles , has entered upon a
The roll was called.
4.
MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE BIZANA :
MOUNT FLETCHER :
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela
Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Nasiu Osias Khatali Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi
BUTTERWORTH :
MOUNT FRERE : Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube
Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Mr. Hobden Martin Canca Mr. Colly Dabula
ELLIOTDALE :
MQANDULI :
Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana
Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane
ENGCOBO: Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija
NGQELENI : FLAGSTAFF :
Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Mr. Babini Langa
Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula
IDUTYWA :
NQAMAKWE :
Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala
Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Hamilton Masiko PORT ST. JOHN'S :
KENTANI :
Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase
Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa
QUMBU:
Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata
Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta
LUSIKISIKI :
ST. MARK'S :
Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Mr. Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo
Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Chief Velile Z. Ndarala Chief George M. Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch kaTshunungwa
LIBODE :
MATATIELE : TABANKULU: Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana
Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani
TSOLO : MOUNT AYLIFF : Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Godgrey Mafu Mabandla Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla
Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse
5.
TSOMO:
Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane
Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila
UM TATA: WILLOWVALE : Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Ntintise Lameck Madubela Mr. Bangani Mnyani
Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
UMZIMKULU : XALANGA : Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Msudukeni Dlamini
Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
OBITUARIES
to this House and to the tribes of these chiefs the sympathies of the Transkei Government first, and then I wish on behalf of this House to move that the sympathies of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly should be conveyed to the families of the deceased. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I have no announcement to make , except that I rise to deal with obituaries . I have no doubt that all the members of this House know that during the recess stretching from July, 1969 , to March, 1970 , this House has , through deaths , lost several of its members . The first of these is the late Mr. Albert Madangatye Raziya, a well -known businessman of Umtata. After a short illness he died on the 21st July, 1969. Mr. Raziya was a member of this House for a period of six years and during the early sessions of the Assembly he made a valuable contribution tothe debates on all controversial issues. We shall miss him , particularly as a man with a very jovial mood. On the 14th August, 1969 , Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo of the Amagcina tribe in the Xalanga district died. He had been ill for a considerable period . He was a member of this House since its inception. Although not a debater , he contributed to the debates at their conclusion by showing which side was always correct. I have no doubt that this House will You will remember vividly also miss him. Chief Mzauteti Diko of Tabankulu, a man who ruled his tribe for almost thirty years . He He was a died on the 23rd January , 1970. member of the former United Transkeian Territories General Council and subsequently the Transkeian Territorial Authority, and from the beginning of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly up to his death he was a member of this House. He was a man who was always ill and at times missed a whole session of the Assembly. Though he was also not a speaker he was a man of integrity. The House will also miss him. The late Chief Hlomendlini Magadla of the Hlubi tribe , Matatiele district, died on the 7th March, 1970. He was a member of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly since 1963. He , too , endured with exemplary fortitude a protracted period of illness and on many occasions during the sessions of this Assembly he was confined to hospital . A very quiet, restrained old man, beloved of all those who came to know him, Chief Magadla reflected the dignity of the Hlubi tribe at all times. Finally, I come to the sudden death of the late Chief Magida Zenzile of Idutywa district. He passed away on the 28th March, 1970 , from a sting of an insect which followed an injection that became fatal. I wish to convey
Mr. Chairman and MR. K.M. GUZANA : hon. members , I stand up to second the motion of sympathy moved by the hon. the Chief Minister, and to say on behalf of the Opposition how much we feel sad when Death, the reaper , seems to take toll of members of this House after every session of the Assembly. It grieves us to know that men who have agreed to serve the people of the Transkei in a legislative sphere have to find that they have got to lay down the reins because of a higher call. I cannot claim personal intimacy with some of the men who have departed, but let me say how much I am touched by the death of Chief Hlomendlini Magadla. He was a man who walked into this Assembly assisted, because he was blind. I can remember him sitting here right through every session of this Assembly, whenever he was in good health. We never heard a word from him but Is this not an he was an attentive listener. indication that even those who are handicapped can come and serve their own people in distinguished spheres ? Indeed , we can say of him he was amongst those who also serve , who only stand and wait. Chief Mzauteti Diko was a man whose presence was known in this Assembly. Political affiliations did not affect his frindship which he extended to all members of this Assembly, and we shall miss his frindship , his warm -heartedness and his ready smile . Then I want to speak shortly about the late Mr. Raziya. He was a man who started from rock bottom and reached the highest pinnacle open to He was no more than a garden the African. boy, a petrol attendant hardly twenty to twentyfive years ago , but he graduated right up to become a member of the first Legislative He distingushed Assembly of the Transkei . himself in business and his work is visibly seen throughout the Transkei . In fact, he was the pioneer of the transport business for Africans He differed with you as a in the Transkei . gentleman would . He held no grievance against anybody. He was a peace - loving man and if you had hurt him he was willing to forget very quickly. We miss his short stature and ready smile as we assemble here today. We say to
6.
all the tribes who have lost their chiefs and the familes who have lost their husbands that we sympathize with them in that loss and hope that time will heal the fatal wound that death inflicts and is ready to inflict on us one by one in our allotted time . Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
looking at him from a distance , but his face blazoned into brilliance as he stretched out his hand to welcome you. I have in my house a glass ashtray which he gave to me . I have never used it as an ashtray . It seemed as if ash would tarnish so great a man as Mr. Grabe , and I regard it as a souvenir from a man who was an official and a friend and a dedicated servant of the people of the Transkei . I was very grieved indeed when I could not attend the funeral in East London , but my heart went out to his family in the loss of so great a man as Mr. Grabe . He is indeed silent now but he has spoken to us in many ways . He has taught us to hurry slowly; he has taught us to be tolerant of other men's point of view; he has taught us to consider the other man may well be right; he has shown us the humility of a Christian . May his family be comforted in the knowledge that if he was their father and husband , to us he was an intimate friend. If we cannot see him with our eyes we can at least see him in our minds and feel warmly in our souls .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before we rise to pay tribute to these gentlemen I rise to speak on another sad note, namely the death of our beloved friend and high official of the Transkei Government , Mr. W.A.R.K. Grabe . Mr. Grabe is well known to all of us in this House. He was the Secretary of the Department of Roads and Works . Born in March, 1912 , at Ficksburg , Mr. Grabe joined the service of the Union of South Africa after completing his degree at the Witwatersrand University in 1934. In 1963 he was promoted to the post of Secretary to the Transkei Department of Roads and Works which post he held until his untimely death occurred in East London Frere Hospital on the 5th October , 1969. During his illness I had occasion to visit Mr. Grabe's house and to see him under very saddening pains , but as a man who was so attached to me he was able to give me a little token of appreciation as a friend - a tray made out of Transkeian wood by him. A few days after that I received the news that he had passed away . The whole Cabinet of the Transkei attended the funeral in East London. Mr. Grabe was a very quiet and dignified official. At Cabinet meetings we were not happy as Ministers until Mr. Grabe made his contribution to matters under discussion. We always regarded him as a senior in
The motion was carried , the members standing in silence as a mark of respect to the deceased .
ANNOUNCEMENTS
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I have the following announcements to make :I wish to inform the House that notices of motion may be submitted today until Monday , 20th April , 1970. Thereafter no notices of motion will be accepted except with the leave of the House . Will members please note that replies to questions will begin on Tuesday. Notices of question may be delivered to the Secretary not later than five clear days before the Tuesday on which a reply is required .
age amongst his colleagues. He was in charge of a very big department - the Department of Roads and Works - but because of his education in engineering he was able to deal with all the intricate problems of that department with ease . He was loved by all who worked with him . With those few words I move that this House should convey its condolence to the family of the late Mr. Grabe.
Again, I have a message in front of me , namely, that the deliberations of Parliament should bear fruitful results . It comes from S. Ningiza of Willowvale .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support warmly the motion of condolence which has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister to be conveyed to Mr. Grabe's family. I think one of the most outstanding men who has been seconded to the Transkei Government has really distinguished himself in the service of the people of the Transkei as Secretary to the Department of Roads and Works , and now we miss him when we raise our eyes from this side of the House . We knew that what he passed on to the Minister of Roads and Works was intended to build and to show the way. What was it in Mr. Grabe that made him a friend? What made him great amongst
APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that this Assembly appoint the following committees :(1) Committee of Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements : - The Minister of Justice (Chairman) ; The Minister of the Interior ; Chief Botha M. Dumalisile ; Mr. K.M.N. Guzana ; Mr. H.H. Zibi.
· his equals ? I am not able to say so , but I think he was a Christian. Many a time have I met
(2) Committee on Public Accounts : - Messrs . R. B. Msengana (Chairman) ; L. Chemane , V.N. Reve ; Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Mr. R. Madikizela .
him outside the Assembly and have felt overwhelmed by a warm heart that flowed over to made me part of himself. I remember going to his office one time at his invitation when he was willing to spend one and a half hours chatting, not as an official, but as a friend who sought to guide and to instruct , to teach and to advise . He had a very ready and indulgent smile. You may have thought him formidable
(3) Business Committee : - The Chief Minister (Chairman) ; the Minister of Roads and Works ; the Minister of Education ; the Chairman of the House ; Messrs . T.E. ka - Tshunungwa and K.M.N. Guzana .
7.
Government should consider the advisability of:
I move accordingly . MR. second.
K.M.
GUZANA:
Mr.
Chairman,
I
(a) raising
(b) paying sub-headmen as employees or administrators of the Government. "
Agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTION
4. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Umtata Town Council to allow people to have fresh produce hawkers ' licences . "
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move this motion:" That this House has no confidence in the Government. "
5. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move :- " That the Department of Education appoints a Commission of Inquiry to investigate the question of book fees in Transkei schools as well as the distribution of the books concerned. "
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : I second the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, in order to enable the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to proceed with his motion without having to follow the rules of this House I move that regulations 67 and 70 of the Rules of this House be suspended so that the Leader of the Opposition may proceed forthwith with his motion of no confidence in the Government. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
the stipends of headmen; and
6. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :- " That the Department of Roads and Works should consider the advisability of appointing an inspection team to investigate the condition of roads and bridges in the Transkei , and further the said Department should consider legislation to declare all roads in the Transkei Government Roads . "
I second.
Agreed to .
7. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move : - " That in view of the severe penalities imposed on persons contravening the provisions of the Transportation Act on convictions involving inter alia, a fine of R1,000.00 or 12 months imprisonment and the confiscation of a motor vehicle involved in the offence , in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of making representations to the Republican Government for leniency in the imposition of such sentences . "
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I am grateful to the House for this indulgence . My only difficulty is that this motion of no confidence has not appeared on the order paper and I will rule myself out of order if I start with this motion today. I shall just request the committee to put it down for tomorrow.
Agreed to.
8. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking all mealie meal milling firms to add nutritious ingredients to mealie meal to be sold in the Transkei with a view to reducing diseases common among Africans in the Transkei . "
The Chairman called for notices of motion. THE CHAIRMAN : As it would appear that the members are not ready with their notices , I shall adjourn the House until tomorrow. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 17th April, 1970.
g . Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of having a resident doctor at the Mjanyana Leper and T.B. Hospital instead of having a doctor once a month as it is now. "
FRIDAY , 17th APRIL, 1970 .
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
10. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of giving a privilege to all the work- seekers of the Transkei to get a permit to seek for work anywhere without contracting for work. "
TABLING OF REPORTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General • on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1968/1969 . In terms of rule 147 (b) it stands referred to the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts .
11. Mr. R.B. Msengana gave notice to move :" That whereas the Transkeian Territories , formerly known as Kaffraria including the districts of Elliot, Maclear , Matatiele , Mt. Currie , Umzimkulu and Port St. Johns , and whereas the Transkeian Territorial Recess Committee appointed to consider the constitutional proposals for self-government proposed that these districts be wholly included in the Transkei , in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should
NOTICES OF MOTION 3. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the 8.
21. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the adivisability of erecting hostels at day Secondary and High schools for the use of students as dormitories . "
consider the advisability of having the aforesaid districts included in the Transkei and of approaching the Government of the Republic to declare the districts named above as a whole as falling within the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. "
NO CONFIDENCE 12. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :- " That the Government should grant licences for possession of firearms to all owners and managers of trading stations in the Transkei . "
Mr. Chairman , hon. MR . K.M. GUZANA : paramount chiefs and hon. members , I rise to speak to the motion standing to my name :" That this House has no confidence in the Government . "
13. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of granting full subsidy on all books to African school going children up to Std. VIII. "
I am happy to be able to do so at this time before the general election which will involve the Republic of South Africa on the 22nd April , for neither can I say that separate development will be rejected at the polls , nor can I say it will be accepted , but we can speak strongly to the Transkei Government and tell them that we have no confidence in them because they are dedicated to the policy of separate development. For the last seven years we have been seeking to implement this vision and bring it down to earth . This Government has sought to make practicable the ideas of separate development. They have sought to bring this mirage of the desert to reality, but to every right-thinking person in South Africa it seems that there is no possibility whatsoever either in the near or distant future that this policy will ever be realised. No amount of effort on the part of those dedicated to this policy can result in the separation of the races socially , economically and politically. The very fact that this Government has to be subsidized by the Republican Government is a factor that negates even the concept of separate development and eventual separation of the Transkei from the rest of the Republic , and this Government must now know that independence is something for the never , never-to-come world. Those of the Republican Government who are sponsoring the policy of separate development have indicated that whatever independence comes to a Bantustan will be a conditioned independence , and that even that independence will only be attained after consultation with the Republican Government. I would like to see how this baby can consult with its father over its independence , because the Republican Government is much stronger than the Transkei Government, and it will dictate the conditions for independence to this Government. It is certainly on the cards that this Government will not be able to send ambassadors to countries outside the Republic unless and until the Republican Government gives its approval . So those who drafted the Constitution of the Transkei - the Transkei National Independence Party - must again sit down and redraft that Constitution, and my first suggestion to them is to delete the word " Independence " from the name of the party. What do you think is the psychological reaction of the Republican Government to the failure in Basutoland ? What do you think is the reaction of the Republican Government to the invitation of Botswana to the Communists ? Are you contemplating that in that context the South African Government can give you independence ? To what extent is it sure of
14. Mr. V.N. Reve gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow Transkeian citizens who wish to seek employment to go to any town in the Republic with the intention of seeking employment. " 15. Mr. V.N. Reve gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow stock owners in the Transkei to purchase fire - arms for the purpose of protecting their stock from thieves who come armed when they raid a kraal . " 16. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of making provision for Transkeian Civil Servants ' accommodation in all Transkeian towns and villages at reduced rentals and on a rebate basis and inside such municipal and V.M.B. areas . " 17. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of relaxing and/or abolishing the strict " means test " applied in cases of applications for Old Age and Disability Grants to increase these by at least 20% and these to be paid monthly to such incuments instead of being paid bimonthly as is the case at present . " 18. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability that when Africans are repatriated into the Transkei consultation with the Transkei Government must precede such repatriation to enable the latter to accommodate the repatriates in gainful employment in the Transkei." 19. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Health Department to send an orthopaedic Doctor to visit Umtata monthly or so as was done before to attend to those in need." 20. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of building Old Age homes at strategic points in the Transkei . "
9.
the 2,000 jobs available in all the homelands , so these Africans , some of them coming from the Transkei , must find their jobs in the White areas. Between the years 1965 and 1968 an additional 105,900 Africans went into the manufacturing and construction section of South Africa's economy outside the homelands , and in all the homelands put together 35,000 Africans become available for employment yearly. Now you must take these 35,000 Africans and put them into 2,000 industrial jobs . Is this a practical possibility in terms of the policy of separate development? Speaking of the Xhosa - speaking people , in 1968 156,000 Africans left the homelands for work in White areas. In 1967 139,000 Africans left the Transkei under contract to seek work outside the Transkei. To that figure you must add 118,000 Transkei Africans working permanently outside the Transkei . Now , I have seen people getting a model ship into a bottle. It requires a lot of magic . I have not seen any display of magic in this Government to make it possible for all these people to get into these jobs which are now available in the homelands. Speaking of the Transkei in particular , what do When this National Unit was estawe find? deceive yourselves that you have don't blished, partial self-government . There were two industrial enterprises in the Transkei - namely, the Vulindlela Furniture Factory and the handspinning and weaving factory, both in Umtata. In 1966 the Xhosa Development Corporation embarked on industrial enterprises in the Transkei and now, up to November, 1969 , we have a phormium tenax decorticating factory employing 120 Africans ; we have the Bantu brewery (curse it!) - 144 Africans employed there ; factory employcold-drink a have we
your political convictions in this regard? Are you not Communists ? (Laughter) Are you not likely to be a danger to yourselves and to the Republic ? And isn't it a fact that this Government has repudiated separate development ? Isn't it a fact that we hear it said today that the policy of separate development is transitory? It will be followed for a time and then be abandoned. I submit the Transkei Government had better find its own policy, for national and international influences are against this thought A few days ago we of separating the races . had the distinguished pleasure of listening to someone from overseas and this is what he said: "I could have my coffee in New York and breadfast in London. I could have my lunch in London today and lunch in East London the following days . " And so the world is becoming smaller and smaller because travel - means of travel , means of communication are bringing the different racial groups more and more together and making them more and more interdependent , and we shall cease to think of South Africa , Africa, America, India. We shall soon think of the world and this thought of separation is a complex against the thinking of the whole world. How can you move back when the world is moving forward ? How can you continue to seek to live alone , separately from the rest of the racial groups in South Africa , when those races are becoming more and more interdependent economically? It cannot be suggested that men of your calibre can continue to subscribe to such a policy in spite of your educational qualifications . I am going to put before you certain figures to show that separate development is failing in South Africa and in the Transkei . It has been claimed that the population in the Bantustans is increasing and that this is an indication of the success of the Government's policy in sending people back to the homeland. My submission is that the increase in population in the Bantustans is the natural increase of the people already in the Bantustans , and here I must pause to congratulate the hon. the Chief Minister and Mrs. Matanzima on the birth of a baby girl born on Wednesday morning, and this is the natural increase that is taking place in the Transkei . ( Laughter) There is no way of solving the ratio of population in the Republic between the different racial groups . Even at the end of this century the non-White group will be accounting for 70 to 75 per cent of the population of the Republic, and so we are going to continue to have the African as the underdog because the implementation of separate development results in restrictions which must be imposed on this majority so that separate development should succeed , because this majority must be kept down and only restricting legislation can do that. If there were not restricting legislation the African would realise himself in a multi- racial state , and so I want to deal with the labour question as it affects the African in the Transkei . According to authorities , during the last ten years 2,000 industrial jobs have been created for the Africans in the homelands , and in the same period 400,600 Africans have found employment in White areas in secondary industries . Now, ordinary arithmetic will result in this answer : That you cannot take the 400,000 - odd Africans and put them into
ing 33 Africans ; a sweet factory employing 26; metal works employing 19 people ; roller mills employing 28 people ; and in brickyard employing 150 people . So with the effort of the XDC over the last four years the Transkei has opened up 520 industrial jobs for the Transkeian African. Now, add to this the employees at the furniture factory numbering 197, the hand- spinning and weaving factory which employs 143 Africans , and you have a total of 860 people employed in industry in the Transkei . Relate that to the number of Africans who become available for employment from the Transkei and you see again that this is failing from the practical point of view. The Xhosa Development Corporation seeks to establish or to have available 2,000 jobs in the near future for Transkeian Africans . How small that number is when compared with the estimated number of industrial jobs being between 300,000 and 500,000 . And these figures indicate that at no forseeable future will the Transkei become viable to even absorb the employees that become available for industrial work in the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who told you that? Who said the policy prevents Africans from seeking jobs in the Republic ? MR. GUZANA : You have no doubt full knowledge that influx control is keeping Transkeians out of the Republic . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Influx control stops people who have no jobs in the Republic.
10 .
MR. GUZANA : Even those who have jobs are being thrown out of their white - collar jobs by an edict of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development .
ed by fear so that you must continue to say it is right, even if you are forced into it. Our conception is in the ordinary evolution of the African, not in any society based on a minority group which would become more and more privileged.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That would be the same position even in the Transkei if we had no government of our own. MR. GUZANA :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : theories .
That is a lot of
What would be the position?
MR . GUZANA : These theories have been proved practicable in England .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The White towns would remain under the Republican Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The English people are ejecting our own people from England.
MR. GUZANA : The position is that you are relying on the White officials at the present moment. Why don't you issue an edict now to say that from the end of this month all White officials must get back to the Republic? ( Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER :
MR. GUZANA : They have proved practicable in the United States but what is moral and humane and just cannot be reconciled with separate development.
We can't do that.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Negroes in America want separate development.
MR. GUZANA : At least if you do that it will be tit for tat , butter for fat, but you haven't the power to do it.
MR. GUZANA : If they are thinking of separate development they might probably be echoing the hon. the Chief Minister. They never spoke of that until you came into power , and probably if they were to come to South Africa and see what is happening in the Transkei they might speak another story. Now, separate development seeks to justify itself by saying it is establishing border industries to solve the problem of migrant labour , and in order to make industrial jobs readily available to the Africans who will be living in the homelands .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Would you accept it? MR. GUZANA : You know I would not accept it because I am not wedded to separate development. THE CHIEF MINISTER:
Then why suggest
it? MR. GUZANA : The fact of the matter is that the African who is holding a white - collar job in the Republic of South Africa is finding that his position is untenable .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you happy about migrant labour? MR. GUZANA : I shall never be happy over migrant labour , and that is why I say the border industries should have been here in Umtata , over there in Qumbu , still over there in Idutywa .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How would you stop it, because the parliament of the Republic is White ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Whose industries ? You want Whites to come into the Transkei and take over the industries ?
MR. GUZANA : He is ceasing to hold his job as of right. He is ceasing to hold the job because he is competent to do so . He is going to lose his job because he is Black.
MR . GUZANA : "Whose industries ?" , the Chief Minister asks . Even the Rode Bantu Trading Company and associates would be included . (Laughter) I would include also the Vulindlela Furniture Factory which is owned by this Government. I would include Lloyd's Clothing Factory ; I would include the Good Hope Textile Factory because I am not obsessed with the colour of the man who brings money into the Transkei . I would like somebody to come here to inject some life into the economy of the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Put forward a positive policy . Don't be negative . He is going to come back MR. GUZANA : to the Transkei and you are going to let him sweep the streets and cease to occupy the job he is at present occupying in White South Africa , and so how can we justify separate development ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to put a question to you. Suppose the policy of separate · development had not been put into force , what would be the position? You know the Parliament of South Africa under the South Africa Act is White.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And again you will be thrown out of the white - collar jobs because the Transkei would belong to the White parliament in Cape Town.
MR . GUZANA : Yes , the condemnation is in his very words - that it has been put into force so that the African has not had a say in it. He has been forced into it and having been forced into it you are given a platform in order to say what you feel about it, but your mind is paralys-
MR . GUZANA : Yes , you will be thrown out of your white- collar job because it will no longer be your job to implement separate development it will become a White man's job. You would have to go back to Qamata and become a sub11 .
come back nearer home and deal with some of the issues that face us in this failing Bantustan, and to show how even the protagonists of separate development are unable to implement any section of their policy. We have been told that White trading stations have been taken over by the XDC whilst the ownership vests in the South African Bantu Trust, and we were told that there are 61 trading stations which have been purchased by Africans . I would like that proved. Is it in fact correct that there are 61 originally White -owned trading stations which Or is it being are now owned by Africans ?
headman
(Laughter) because the Government would have no use for you because it would be implementing separate development. I want to speak on the border industries . Now, border industries have opened up industrial jobs numbering 60,000 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : What have border industries to do with this Government?
MR. GUZANA : Now, I think, Mr. Chairman, we will have to do something about the hon. the Chief Minister. I think he is grumbling a bit too much. Whenever a child does not go to sleep we usually give it teething powders . If you have laid in a stock for your child, please bring some this afternoon. ( Laughter) I said there are 60,000 industrial jobs which have been created by border industries over the last ten years . Apart from the figures I have given you of permanently employed Africans outside the Transkei , apart from the people who are recruited by this Government at a profit of R1 per person to go into the Republic , you get 83,000 Africans becoming available for employment every year, and what do these border industries really do for the African? They still take the African worker away from his family. He still spends half his income where he is employed. He has no property rights at the place of employment still , and if the Transkeian is working in East London and loses his job he is told to cross the Kei and return to the Transkei. In other words , the border industrial areas do not give a greater tolerance to the African seeking jobs there than the industries in the Witwatersrand , in the Western Cape and other areas . THE CHIEF MINISTER : talking?
suggested that they are in the process of being bought over by the African? Because the impression created is that the African already owns these 61 trading stations and that the African has no liability to anybody relating to these 61 stations . My own investigations have given me to understand that there are about two or three Africans who own trading stations and that these Africans have been able to do so because they have realised their assets in a township to pay out the South African Bantu Trust. My impression is that the XDC is trading in the Transkei and trading successfully to the detriment of the African in the Transkei . Let us take the 229 trading stations which are managed by Africans for and on behalf of the XDC . Let us say each shop has a turnover of R500 per month so that 229 stations at R500 per month turnover may bring us to the million rand mark per month. Let us say the profit is 20% gross per month. That means R200,000 per month. That is the clear profit which goes to the XDC . Multiply that by 12 and you have R2,400,000 clear profit. I want to ask : Where does that money go to? Where is it invested? Who finally gets the benefit out of that profit? Is it not correct that whatever funds are available , whatever money is available in the Transkei is being siphoned out of the Transkei through the XDC ? There are African managers who
To whom are you
MR. GUZANA : And here is a picture of the future according to Professor Rudi of Pretoria University: Investment in the Bantu homelands must be at the rate of R500 million per year for the next 30 years , and this will provide industrial jobs that will absorb the man-power increase of the homelands . Dr. Ben Piek of
are earning a salary of R60 per month. Many of these Africans have asked for loans to buy over the stock in these shops - loans sought from the XDC . I know of a case where a man applied and he has had to wait for over six months before he has received authorization of the loan. In the meantime he is an employee
the Rand Afrikaans University says there should be 85,000 new jobs a year opening up in the homelands , and assuming that that takes place these jobs will only take up 9.7 million Africans , and that 15.6 million Africans will still be working in the Republic of South Africa and migrant labour will still be constituting 3.7 million Africans by the end of the century. Now, I have been dealing with the economic aspect and showing how impossible it is economically to separate the races one from the other. The Transkei has not jobs enough to take up all the people in the Transkei . The Transkei cannot hope either in the immediate future or in the distant future to achieve that goal . As job opportunities increase , so will the population be increasing and that gap will continue for all time, and therefore we cannot get to a stage when the homelands can employ all their inhabitants . I must say that in this purposeless effort or programme to realise separate development as a fact there must be this restrictive legislation which is carried by the African. Probably I should now
of the XDC and earning money for the XDC . I want to know how this Government can relate this situation to the African in the Transkei . I feel that this Government should reconsider the operation of the XDC in the Transkei . We have asked that the reports of the XDC be tabled in this House so that we may be given all the facts . We are kept in the dark and we have got to fish for this information and because this Government hides this information and keeps it to itself, we are bound to be suspicious . Now, I want to deal with another matter which is of concern to the Opposition . Between the rising of this parliament at its last session and now, we read in the newspapers that there had been a Cabenit reshuffle , and this reshuffle concerned three Ministers - that is the Minister of the Department of the Interior , the Minister of the Department of Justice and the Minister of the Department of Education . Now , whenever anything of that nature happens then it means there is something wrong somewhere.
12.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : that?
Where do you get
public property . (Laughter) If this hopping and jumping is going to go on in the Cabinet then we have reason to lose our confidence in such a government.
MR. GUZANA: It may well be that an apportionment of the Ministers to the respective departments was unjustified. It is possible that one of the Ministers does not deserve to hold a Cabinet post and must be shifted from one department to the other. It may be possible that this reshuffle has been made in order to secure greater efficiency , but when we go back to the last session of this Assembly we may well find the reason why there has been this reshuffle . Then we gave warning to the Department of Education that at this session we would speak out on the work that is done in the Department of Education, ( Interjections ) and so there has been this reshuffle in order to move the target of our present criticism from the department which gave us a lot of concern. But the most sinister reaction is this : That the hon. the Chief Minister may well be making these reshuffles to continue to keep a man in the Cabinet when he ought not to be in the Cabinet. We have no quarrel with the change of portfolios amongst the Ministers . In fact , we would say it is just as well that they should be changed for greater efficiency.....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You get reshuffles in the Cabinet in any country . It is nothing new.
MR. GUZANA : Yes, it is nothing new but when we think we know the reason why they are being moved.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : You don't know the reason.
MR. GUZANA : ....then we are going to ask the hon. the Chief Minister of this Government to explain the reshuffle. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not necessary. The team is mine . MR. GUZANA : If it is not necessary then we are entitled to draw our own conclusions and comment adversely on such a reshuffle . The impression is that all the other Cabinet Ministers can be moved for the convenience of this particular Cabinet Minister , and were we not aware of the wrongs that were going on in the Department of Education? Didn't the servants of that department complain that they had insecurity of employment?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you speculating? MR. GUZANA: ....but when a man is moved from the Department of Justice to Education , from the Department of Education back to Justice , we want to ask: Does this man fit in anywhere? (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is your insinuation?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : that?
MR. GUZANA : That there was an arbitrary transfer of teachers ? We certainly don't get it from the Department of Education nor from the Cabinet. We get it from the people we represent and they are the people who feel the pinch when a department is improperly managed. We call upon the hon. the Chief Minister who is responsible for these reshuffles to give us an explanation as to why there was such a reshuffle.
MR. GUZANA : And isn't this reshuffle a vote of no confidence in that particular individual? If a Minister becomes an embarrassment to the Government he is dropped and we challenge this Government to justify these changes which have involved a certain Minister. Was the hon. the Minister of Justice in 1964 not fit and proper to hold the portfolio of Justice when he was changed to the Department of Education?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Could you bring an alternative government ? We have had a byeelection and you have failed .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : 1966 . MR. GUZANA : Justice in 1964.
1964. You were Minister of
MR. GUZANA : You are still riding the horse and you must saddle it properly. We cannot allow you to ride it tailwise . ( Laughter) So when you begin to carry out these extraordinary manipulations of Cabinet Ministers who are responsible for policy , we are going to ask why and we are entitled to an explanation . We are not far from the truth when we remember that this Government jettisoned two former Ministers in spite of the fact that they had come back to this House . Are we getting what our erstwhile member used to call "nepotism"? We feel we are entitled to an explanation on this matter and , whilst we have the new Minister of Education before us and in the context ofmy discussion of this matter of Cabinet reshuffles , we must say from this side of the House that we shall not accept any limitation in the direction of education in the Transkei . If you accept limitation in the development and facilities for education in the Transkei we ask you the question : Why educate the African at all? We want Africans to be educated fully to become the universal student.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I was transferred in 1966 .
MR. GUZANA : You were in the Department of Justice in 1964 up to 1966 . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is right.
MR. GUZANA :
Where do you get
Now, he has been in the
Department of Education from the Department of Justice and he has been transferred back to the Department of Justice . THE CHIEF MINISTER: It shows he is very efficient. MR. GUZANA : He is so efficient that he cannot keep any department going for any length of time, and somebody else must come along and sweep the dirt out so that it does not become
13.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: fully .
explained to him or were misrepresented to him. Others repeated the same story. Now if this Government takes into account the miserable state in which the crops are; if you will take into account that these people who are making this cry are poverty- stricken; if you will take into account the fact that these people cannot easily get to centres of employment in order to get the money to pay this Government; if you will take into account the fact that some of the debtors are widows , I think this Government should consider wiping out the whole debt.
They are educated
MR. GUZANA : We want him to fit into any society in which he finds himself. He must be on an intellectual par with the White man , with the Coloured , with the Indian, American , Frenchman or with the German, and since the Department of Education at the present moment has not sufficient facilities to cater for the demand for education in the Transkei we shall certainly take it amiss if the hon. the Minister of Education takes it into his head that there will be a curtailment of facilities and there will be a relation of development in the Department of Education to the development in other departments . You want people to take over from White seconded officials , and you curtail education !
THE CHIEF irresponsible .
MINISTER :
You are very
MR. GUZANA : It is being responsible to put this to the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is the curtailment of education?
Where have you THE CHIEF MINISTER: ever seen such a thing? This is public money.
MR . GUZANA : One would think you are cutting off your noses to spite your faces , because if you haven't the personnel to take over because education is sought to be curtailed , then how do you hope to make the Transkei wholly African controlled? The emancipation of an individual depends on his education that he may be able to think liberally and freely and in a wide context, and not be hidebound by a limiting political thought such as underlies the policy of separate development. Now, when the drought was visited upon the Transkei by the good Lord because we had a government supporting separate development (Laughter) we found that stock died , people had no trek- oxen with which to plough and the Government graciously arranged for credit ploughing to assit the Transkeian in his ploughing operations . I do not know why the hon. the Chief Minister does not interject on this point. Now, the complaint of the tribal peasant is this - that because the Transkei has become drought- stricken from year to year he has not been able to reap anything from his lands . The result is that he is not able to recoup himself to pay for his debt to the Government and he is becoming more and more financially obliged to the Government as the drought continues from year to year . During March this year different magistracies sent out notices calling upon these people to pay to the Government what they owe. Some are owing upwards of R60 and R80 . One claimed to owe R160 , but I had no sight of his letter of notice so I cannot vouch for that. Now, these notices have been issued with a warning that execution will be levied to recover these moneys and the cry of these people is : Where do we Where are the crops get the money from ? to sell in order to have the money to pay the Government? They are now overcome by frustration and I was out in Zimbane during the byeelection on the 30th March and one man complained to me in the following terms : I was not told that I was signing as surety for this woman - I was told that I was being asked to sign so that I should help trace this widow when the officials come to collect from her. So that this man had been duped into accepting liability because the terms were not properly
MR. GUZANA: It is irresponsible to expect these people to pay when you know they have not got the money. The undertaking was that when you reap you shall pay , and when you don't reap what do you do ? Isn't that then the corollary of "when you reap you shall pay; when you don't reap you shall not pay" ? Hon. member, I would THE CHAIRMAN : like to remind you to abide by the motion. MR. GUZANA : put right?
Mr. Chairman, may I be
I do not feel you are THE CHAIRMAN : discussing your motion of no confidence . MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I move an adjournment of this debate until 2.15 p.m. ? It is already ten to 1 . MR. R. MADIKIZELA: I second .
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , and so I continue to submit strongly that a government that is going to sue its subjects on a debt such as that incurred in these extraordinary circumstances is a government that nobody can have confidence in. Circumstances beyond the control of the peasant farmer have left him destitute . I pass on to the next point. It has been brought to our notice that this Government has changed its banking centre from the Standard Bank to Volkskas . If I am correctly informed , this Government paid no commission in respect of financial transactions through the Standard Bank ; that the Standard Bank had no reason to complain and that this Government had no reason to complain in the inter-services between itself and the Govern14 .
ment. If I am correctly informed , Volkskas has only one branch in the Transkei and that branch is situated in Umtata . On the other hand , the Standard Bank has branches along the main national route through the Transkei at all the towns situated along that route . It further has mobile agencies serving the outside towns and villages . In effect, therefore , the Standard Bank could render more efficient and greater service with its branches and agencies than Volkskas could. This side of the House would like to know why there was this transfer . Is it because there is a political motive behind that transfer, or is it contemplated that Volkskas will give a better service than the Standard Bank ? To us this seems to have been an arbitrary decision which is not justified , and we can have no confidence in a Government which will transfer its funds from a long- established , wellestablished bank which rendered service to this Government running this account as a prestige account. Right from the times of the Bunga to the TTA and to the present moment this bank has rendered service to these government institutions which have grown from infancy, and when the funds handled by this Government are increased it has to get a slap in the face . In our view the Government has been very petty and small about the whole matter and we would like to hear a justification from the Government as to this move .
shall now deal with two points and this will relieve my friends of this criticism which has been levelled against them . I think if any government is going to be a successful government it must make a success of the two main objectives to which the Prime Minister made reference in Port Elizabeth the other day . Mr. Vorster said that a government must make certain that every able-bodied man is in employment; that a government should encourage , propagate and nurture good race relations . I have shown this morning that this government is unable to employ its own citizens . I have shown that there are not sufficient industrial jobs to absorb the working African in the Transkei ; that if the Africans have to have some sort of subsistence they have to get out of the Transkei into the Republic , and So we come to the conclusion that since this Government has failed to establish this qualification of a responsible government, then no -one can have any confidence in it. Secondly, I submit that this Government has failed to promote good race relations amongst the different races of South Africa ; that in effect it is undermining the very good race relations that existed before it came into existence . Utterances of the members of the Government have shown to what extent they have little regard for race relations. The Europeans in the Transkei have been described as bugs sucking the lifeblood of the Africans - and that comes from the Government of the Transkei . This Government has said that the Democratic Party is carrying white lice which feed upon the body of the African and all these utterances are not intended to promote good race relations Other announcements , statements and comments made by the governing party have tended to excavate race relations and the policy of the Government seeks to encourage the African to take over, rather than to share responsibility. They argue that the White man must get out because there is a Black man; that no White has a right to hold a job if there is a Black man available . They have embarked on a policy whereby Europeans are going to be eliminated out of Government departments and out of the Transkei as a whole . They have ridden roughshod over the sentiments of families of three or four generations who have lived in the Transkei and have told them to pack their bags and get out. Are these threats , are these boasts caculated to encourage the development of good human relationships between the different races that live together in South Africa ? The Russians say Russia for the Russians . The Russians say individual for the state ; that nobody except the the Russian must realise himself in Russia. Aren't we moving in that direction with this government : Aren't you saying : The Transkei for the African in the Transkei ? Aren't you saying the Transkeian is the only person to realise himself in the Transkei ? And aren't you saying the Transkei must be loyal to the Government , otherwise he is subversive ? How are we going to live with other people whom God has placed in this country and in the Transkei and in the world as a whole , if we
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Who are your personal bankers ? Are you an agent for the Standard Bank? MR. GUZANA : I have no call to tell the hon. member who my bankers are . If you want to know who my bankers are I will employ you as a tea-boy and pay you by cheque , then you will know who my personal bankers are . ( Laughter) Another reason which is worrying us and causing us to lose confidence in this Government is the fact that this Government does not seem to realise the importance of the magistrate of the district who is also a Bantu Affairs Commissioner . The magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner is the administrative head of a district. He is responsible to this Government for whatever happens within his district. He is the link between the Government and the people of the district. He is also the link between the Security Branch on the one hand and the people in his district, but the general complaint with magistrates who are Bantu Affairs Commissioners is that they are being ignored by this Government; that officers of this Government, and particularly those who come from the Department of Agriculture and Forestry, go into the districts without going through the magistrate . To say the least, this is undermining the authority of the magistrate over his district. Schemes may be put to the residents of a district without the magistrate knowing that officials of the Government are operating in his district. I ask why this Government should undermine the authority of the magistrate who is also a Bantu Affairs Commissioner in the district. After all , he is an official of this Government and he may well find himself saddled with a problem that is not of his own making because officials have gone behind his back into his district . I
are going to have sentiments like that? Why can't we concede that a man can be sentimentally attached to a plot of ground in the Transkei even if he is not an African ? How
15.
the non-White employees R41 a month that is one-fifth. A recent CSIR report shows that 80% of the African employees in industry are dissatisfied with their wages , whilst one -third complain of inadequate wages . Using the figures of Mr. Wally Langschmidt of Market Research of South Africa, whilst Africans make up 67.9% of the country's 13 million population their share of the nation's personal cash income is only 18.8%. Using his figures we find that all Whites earn something like R95 per month per person, whilst the African earns R7 per month. These figures are an indictment of the policy of separate development and there is no promise of an improvement in that situation so long as we have a government which accepts separate development, because this Government accepts the privileges which are entrenched by legislation to the detriment of the non- White.
can we by pressure seek to move these men out who have realised their lives here ? (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
MR . GUZANA : You should have come into the Umtata constituency during the bye -elections , then you would have served as a good megaphone. So this Government again is failing in the second qualification to promote good relationships amongst the different races in South Africa, and this House therefore can have no confidence in such a government. Just the last point now - the others will be kept until my reply. MR. R.B. MSENGANA : bye -elections.
Tell us about the
MR. GUZANA : The hon. member for Cala is requesting me, imploring me - nay, begging me to speak about the bye -elections. (Laughter) I think you are keen to talk about the results of the bye -elections . I do not think I should spoil your pie by tasting it first. You have the first spoonful , I will have the rest when I reply and then I shall have the last word and probably you will be sorry you challenged me. My last point: I have before me an extract from the Financial Mail published on the 18th April, 1969. I wonder how many of you do read the Financial Mail?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And if you came into power, what would you do? MR. GUZANA : To ask what we would do is to adopt a negative attitude and an attitude of an acceptance of an intolerable situation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am asking you to tell us what you would do. Suppose you form a government, what would you do?
MR. GUZANA : Our policy would encourage good human relations in South Africa. Our policy would encourage good race relations and co-operation amongst the races.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You should have read it last year. Who gave it to you?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Will you admit you would still be under the policy of separate development?
MR. GUZANA : I did not want to read it last year because you were not sufficiently receptive at that stage , but now that I have softened you down will you listen to this ? This article deals with African workers who are receiving the hardest budget blows. In the economic sector this is what this paper has to say: "The latest Bureau of Statistics figures reveal that in Manufacturing, average White earnings including overtime , commission and bonuses , are R256 a month. The figure for the Africans is R49 per month, which is five times less . In Mining the figures are respectively R304 a month for Whites and R17 a month for Africans - 18 times less . In Construction Work Whites get R273 a month and the African R46 per month six times less. "
MR. GUZANA : Our policy would accept the position that the White man would have to lead the African for a considerable time , but this is not on the basis of a "baasskap" mentality which is typical of separate development. It would be on a basis of co-operation and friendship in which the White will realise that it is his duty to uplift the African to his status. Yes , I say : What price separate development ?when it relegates us to what one of the Ministers described as a " waste- paper bucket " (not basket) . The African is not prepared to accept that position. They seek to find a place in the sun - nay , a place in the moon. And how do we get there when we close ourselves up in the Transkei ? Your mentality and your feelings are limited to the sufferings and pains and aches of only a Transkei African . I would say you are not telling the truth if you say you shared the anxiety of the whole world in relation to the return of the astronauts of Apollo 13. You are incapable of doing so because you have got your nose buried in the Transkei . ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I am not frightened by what the hon. the Minister of Justice has just whispered , but I think enough has been said to show that this House cannot and does not have any confidence in this Government. If you think I have said everything, let me warn you that I have reserved ammunition for my reply and any irresponsible statements will be flung back at you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you speaking to the Republican Government? MR. GUZANA: You might be mistaking yourself for the Republican Government, but if you cut yourself down to size you will know I am speaking to the Transkei Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What has the Transkei Government to do with that? MR . GUZANA: These are Transkeian holding these jobs . Now , in Public Administration and Local Authorities White employees earn R210 a month and Africans R36 a month , six times less . In the South African Railways and Harbours Administration during 1967/1968 financial year the White employees got R217 per month and
16.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : I second the motion, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I lay upon the table the Estimates of Expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkeian Revenue Fund during the year ending 31st March , 1971 , and the Estimates of Revenue to be received during the year ending 31st March, 1971 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that a reply to the accusations levelled at the Government by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will take more than 60 minutes , I move the adjournement of the House .
NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Tuesday , 21st April , 1970 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a sum not exceeding R26,261,000 towards the services of the Transkei for the financial year ending 31st March, 1971 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to.
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday , 20th April , 1970 .
NOTICES OF MOTIONS
MONDAY , 20th APRIL , 1970
22. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of emplɔying pensioners or old men who are suitable to deal with Labour Bureau contracts in all centres in the Transkei . "
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
23. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move : - " That the Government should pay the salaries of Chiefs in accordance with their academic qualifications viz.:
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I regret to announce that the hon. the Minister of the Interior has been advised by the doctor to be in bed for ten days because of having suffered from ceaseless headache .
Up to Std. VI Up to J.C. Up to Matric & Beyond -
The Business Committee of this House will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 3.45 p.m. today.
R2400.00 ; R3600.00 : R4800.00. "
24. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move:" That in the opinion on this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of establishing a hospital at Lutubeni in Mqanduli district. "
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , there is an announcement which I shall ask the Secretary to read .
25. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of constructing dams , not only in soil conservation scheme areas but also in administrative areas which have no soil conservation schemes ."
THE SECRETARY: Mr. D.H. Spring on behalf of Messrs . Mobil Oil Southern Africa (Pty. ) Ltd. cordially extends an invitation to the Chief Minister , his Cabinet and all members of the Transkei Legislative Assembly to attend a film presentation of agricultural and educational films which have been produced in the Transkei and sponsored by their company. By kind permission of the honourable the Commissioner - General , Mr. J.H. Abraham , the presentation will take place at Abrahamskraal on Tuesday, 28th April , commencing at 4.30 p.m. Immediately following the presentation by the inviation of the Managing Director of Mobil Oil , all are invited to attend a braaivleis at Abrhamskraal as guests of the Mobil Company. For all those requiring transport this will be provided in the form of buses which will leave the front of the building at appropriate times .
26. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move : " That the Department of Railways and Harbours be requested to revise their train time table so as to provide a passenger train from Amabhele Junction to Umtata to avoid the present delay at Amabhele Station of Transkei passengers from urban Working Centres such as Cape Town and Johannesburg . " 27. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move : "In view ofthe high enrolment in Primary schools which is altogether out of proportion to the number of teachers in these schools , the Department of Education , as a matter of urgency , should employ married women with the necessary qualifications. "
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 I lay upon the table the Annual Report of the Transkei Public Service Commission , 1969.
28. Mr. P.N. NKosiyane gave notice to move : "That this Government should immediately undertake as a matter of urgency , the establishment of teacher - training schools in the Transkei , regard being had to the great need for teachers and to the very high ratio of pupils per teacher . "
17.
result of the implementation of that legislation aimed at reserving such jobs for the white people in the Republic. "
29. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move: " That the Department of Agriculture and Forestry should have a proper check on its extension work demonstrators as to whether they execute their functions efficiently or not. "
39. Chief D.D. P. Ndama se gave notice to move : "That this Assembly appoints a Recess Committee to investigate all matters relating to labour in the Transkei and in the Republic and to report next session . "
30. Chief T.N. Ndamase gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of abolishing the levy paid for slaughtered stock to the Meat Industries Control Board by Bantu Butchers in the rural areas of the Transkei. "
40. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase gave notice to move : "That the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development be requested to appoint Bantu Inspectors in the Transkei in terms of section 17 of Act 67 of 1964. "
31. Chief T.N. Ndamase gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to decrease the Quitrent paid by Bantu Traders in the rural areas of the Transkei from R24.00 per annum to R2.00 . "
41. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government to erect a Mental Hospital in the Transkei . "
32. Chief T.N. Ndamase gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of inviting any person or company to establish a Leather Tanning and a Shoe -making Factory in Umtata or any suitable place in the Transkei . "
42. Mr. H. Mafukula gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a recess committee to enquire into soil conservation complaints in all rehabilitated areas and report the findings thereof next session. "
33. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of selling all former Bantu Trust Civil Servants ' Houses now owned by the Transkeian Government which are situate miles away from Transkeian Villages and Towns and in remote African areas to aspirant African buyers who have the funds to buy such unoccupied houses for their families ."
43. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move :"That the Transkei Government should write- off ploughing-aid debts for 1968 in deserving cases in all drought stricken areas . " 44. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move : " That this Assembly should appoint a joint deputation consisting of members from both sides of the house to have consultation with the Republican Government in regard to the lifting of influx control Regulations . "
34. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of paying Paramount Chiefs ' representatives monthly allowances. "1
45. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move :"That this Assembly should request the Republican Government to apply all its wage Regulations in the Transkei. "
35. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of the establishment of additional wool centres in the Transkei . "
46. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move : " That this Assembly should request the Republican Government to relax job reservation laws . "
36. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of facilitating the easy introduction of cattle into the Transkei to replace the heavy stock losses due to the drought. "
47. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move :" That this Assembly should request the Republican Government to except the Transkei from the law that deprives African rate payers from being voters in Town Councils and Village Boards. "
37. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of building bridges on the Mgwali River between Mjanyana and Ngcacu Locations and on the Gqumrana stream between Quluqu and Mjanyana Location . "
48. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government to amend the Workmen's Compensation Act so as to provide for the receipient to be given all his compensation if he so requires . "
38. Chieftainess A.N. Sigcau gave notice to move :- "That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of expediting the establishment of factories throughout the territory wherever it is practicable in order to accommodate thousands of our people who are now going to be thrown out of work as clerks , shop assistants , etc. , as a
49. Chief B.M. Matanzima gave notice to move : "That the Republican Proclamation controlling irrigation schemes should be amended in the Transkei to suit the conditions and certain land regulations applicable in the area . " 18 .
50. Mr. L.N. Madubela gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of issuing title deeds to all municipal areas site owners . "
elequent evidence of the fact that the people of the Transkei have no more confidence in the Democratic Party? During the 1968 session of the Legislative Assembly , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, replying to a question by myself, gave this reply (and I quote) : - " The Opposition is certainly larger than Sinaba's party. In fact, it is so large it is keeping you uncomfortable and your only sense of security is because you have many chiefs . I would challenge you on a referendum and you will see the results . " To which I replied (and I quote ) : "The referendum is coming , don't worry. " Did the referendum by way of the general election not come?
51. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of putting all Transkeian professional and medical staff, nurses , teachers , public servants , technicians and labourers at par salaries with all other racial groups in the Republic . " NO CONFIDENCE
CHIEF MAJEKE : used.
The debate was resumed . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I, before going on with the descussion of the motion, move the following amendment : -
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Those are the ones you used in Qumbu. Did the voters of the Transkei not give a verdict? Was the whole front bench of the Opposition not completely wiped out and the ranks of the Opposition cut to size ? The Democratic Party is such a disorganized party that they even failed to hold meetings .
To delete the words after " has " and substitute therefor the phrase "full confidence in the Government" .
Mr. Chairman, when an Opposition moves a motion of no confidence in the Government, it offers itself as an alternative government to the government it seeks to chastise . It becomes , therefore , necessary for this side of the House to make a careful analysis of such Opposition and to give a critical exposition of the abilities and capabilities of the leader of that Opposition , together with the personnel of that Opposition. For instance , such an Opposition usually has a shadow Cabinet - that is , a shadow Chief Minister and shadow ministers of that particular government. I shall therefore start by viewing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . May I state from the very onset that this House is very much intrigued and disappointed and dismayed at the absence of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and giving no apologies to this House for his absence after having moved a motion of no confidence which we have to discuss today. In the absence of any explanation this side of the House takes it as an extreme irresponsibility on the part of that hon. Leader. I therefore shudder to think of what would happen to the Transkei under the leadership of such a leader. I am sure the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland , Paramount Chief Victor Poto , will go to his grave a broken man and a disappointed man to find that after he had so painstakingly and laboriously formed a very strong Opposition , it has now dwindled down to the shambles it has become as a result of the mismanagement of the present leader . Here is a man who inherited from the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland a strong party with more than 30 elected members , only to find that today this party has less than 15 elected members. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : reason.
We know the tricks you
CHIEF MAJEKE : Which meetings? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Your meetWait, I am going to tell you . In fact , ings. the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is so scared of being unseated that he will not even hold congresses of the Democratic Party , and he finds himself today leading that party of disorganized people in the style of Chief Jonathan Leabua, (Laughter) for when a man takes upon himself powers when he fears an election or the results of an election, that is tantamount We read in the Daily to a " coup d'état ". of the Democratic leader Dispatch after the Party and his deputy had lost a seat under their very noses that he made an announcement that the party congress would be held after the Was it not Legislative Assembly session . because they were scared of facing the congress where they would be questioned as to why people in their own area had rejected the Democratic Party?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Never ever. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I must, however, congratulate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for possessing a skin of the thickness of that of a rhinoceros , the stubbornness of a pig and the courage of a hornless bull for having been courageous enough to move this motion of no confidence hardly a week after the people When a of Umtata had rejected his party. leader loses the confidence of the people the best and the wisest way to act is to resign. This hon. leader has so lost the confidence of the people that when canvassing for the elections for the Dalindyebo and Flagstaff bye -elections and at a meeting at East London his meeting was broken up by his own followers . (Interjections )
We will tell you the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This reduction of membership of the Opposition happened during the general election of 1968 and was not this
THE CHAIRMAN : please.
19.
Behave , hon. member,
comic relief I shall continue from where I stopped. ( Laughter) The people of the Transkei are interested in how they will be ruled and what benefits they shall achieve . I remember reading in a paper about the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland when, before the election of the first Cabinet of the Transkei , he was interviewed by certain journalists . He was asked this question: If you get into power what policy will you apply in the Transkei ? His reply was this : I shall apply the same policy of separate development until the Transkei gains full independence .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In a court of law an objection in limine should have been moved on the ground that this leader has no standing in judicio to bring a motion of this nature before this House . It is a duty incumbent on this side of the House to warn the hon . members of the Opposition of the dangers that would beset a one-party state to which the incapacity and incapability of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is driving us , for so long as he is still Leader of the Opposition , so long shall we take all the seats at elections and also at bye - elections , but the most intriguing aspect of this hon . Leader of the Opposition is the way he is always so ready to champion the cause of the White people either in this House or outside this House . Can this House have confidence in a leader who will leave his people destitute and defend the cause of people who have their own people to look after them ? (Interjections) Some time ago he gave a warning to the White people about the impending danger of the Black nationalists . " The Leader of the Transkei Opposition , Mr. K.M.N. Guzana , warned this week that the Government's new Fish/Kat line racially dividing the Fish River from the Kat could become a dagger turned against the Whites themselves. Mr. Guzana said this was obviously in accord with the dream of the Transkei Chief Minister , Chief K.D. Matanzima , of amalgamating the Transkei with the Ciskei as one Bantustan. Mr. Guzana regards Chief Matanzima's dream for unification of the Ciskei and Transkei as a kind of territorial demand which is inevitable for Black nationalism. Mr. Guzana said it was unrealistic to believe that Chief Matanzima's aim of amalgamation was motivated by altruism or that what amounted to a territorial demand would end in the Ciskei. The pattern of Black nationalism indicates that there will be more territorial demands and once the Ciskei has been gained , further territorial demands would have to be aimed at the White dominated areas west of the Fish/Kat line . " Here is a gentleman criticizing territorial claims on behalf of people who have no land. For the last six years we have been calling upon the hon. gentlemen across the floor to explain to us what they mean by their multi - racial policy . Multi-racialism is a most ubiquitous term . It is capable of being given many interpretations and I submit it was designed to suit the political acrobatics of the members across the floor . It was by sheer uncanny plans of the members across the floor that they accepted this word , but most unfortunately their mentors forgot to tell them what the meaning of the word is . They knew full well that their policy is a vacillating policy and they had to find a word that would suit their policy whichever way they turned it. The phrase "multi - racialism " means nothing except a description of the racial set - up in South Africa and which is a heterogeneous set- up. The people of the Transkei are not interested in your political somersaults .
OPPOSITION MEMBER: ing?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have quoted it several times before and you were here . I cannot help your thickheadedness . I am quoting it as it appeared in the paper. Now, that is most inconsistent with the policy of that side of the House as enunciated by their leader. Their leader said , when addressing a meeting of the Race Relations that he would like to see the Transkei progressing to no more than a Now, the question may be provincial status . asked: How can you reconcile the statement of the hon. the then Leader of the Opposition about full independence for the Transkei and the later statement of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he said the Transkei would not proceed further than a provincial status ? May I put this question to everyone who will stand up to speak on this motion of no confidence . We want to know as to whether the rest of you hon. members across the floor subscribe to the policy enunciated by your leader to the effect that you want the Transkei to be only a province of the Republic of South Africa and never to be independent. That is a catergorical question to which you will have to reply.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: reply.
We are going to
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, last July the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was asked to give an exposition of their policy of multi-racialism and this is what he said. He failed to give an exposition of multi -racialism but merely gave what his party would wish to see . He gave , in fact, the wishes that are the aspirations of all the African people , including those on this side of the House . He said : " One of the most important principles for which the Democratic Party stands is the freedom of movement of the individual . The African should be able to move to any part of South Africa without let or hindrance . He must not be stopped at the Kei Bridge and asked for a pass from the Government . He must be able to stay in Langa or Kimberley as long as he desires to do so . He must have passport as of right , not as a privilege so that he can move freely to Australia if he wishes to. " Now, may you be told for the hundredth time that these disabilities were made by the Republican Government in their own parliament in Cape Town.
May I ask you a MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Isn't what you have just said now , question? hon. Minister, a piously hypocritical statement of good intent on your part? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE:
Who are you quot-
for
After this 20 .
OPPOSITION MEMBER : You have been there seven years and what have you done ?
which casts a lot of cobwebs in their eyes. They speak of a qualified franchise and a careful study of that qualified franchise has revealed that the White people would have over 80% of the voting strength in their parliament , while you would merely be 8%.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May you be asked how you could achieve this sitting in this House merely as an Opposition ? May you be told that this is precisely why this side of the House would like to see the Transkei being an independent state and formulating its own laws .
OPPOSITION MEMBER : That is better than nil.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : able to do that.
You will never be
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : achieve that?
And how will you
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Under such circumstances , how do you ever hope to be voted That is why you , Mr. B.S. into parliament? Mnyani , come along with a motion this morning to the effect that you want the Africans to be removed from the operation of a certain law within the municipality . You have long been in this town of Umtata and have never even once
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Hon. Mr. Madikizela , you are an educationist and I am very sorry to hear you ask such a question. I am going to reply to you. Independence of any state does not mean that they will be closed within the precincts of that state and never move out. (Interjections ) Lesotho is an independent state but the Lesotho people work in the Republic. You will ever be Black; you will ever be a Native.
put up your name as a candidate because you knew you and your people would be overwhelmed by the voting strength of this town. You want to believe that in that qualified franchise of the Progressive Party you would ever be voted into that parliament ! (Interjections ) I have accepted the policy of separate development because it is a policy that at least gives me a place under the sun. Fortunately, the people of the Transkei are gradually seeing through that bluff and fallacy of you people promising them the moon and the stars . The Republic of South Africa is under the law made by the White people in Cape Town, and you heard the Leader of the Opposition in the White man's parliament saying that if you people think you will ever get to the White man's parliament in Cape Town you will do so over their dead bodies.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: And we will always be discriminated against by your policy . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Swaziland is an independent state but the people work inside the Republic . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: And they are discriminated against by the policy you worship. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Botswana is an independent state but the people work inside the Republic . May you be told once again that the policy of multi - racialism means racial integration in society , in politics and in economics. (Interjections) Yes , you will have to tell this House as to whether the sickness you suffered form in Johannesburg with the Paramount Chief has affected your mind . It is clear what we have always told the hon. members across the floor, that they should know that with regard to a Black man being admitted into the White man's parliament in Cape Town that is a never - never pipe dream . (Interjections ) This is part of the policy of the United Party. I am doing this to show you that all the White people in the Republic of South Africa are united on one thing, and that is White leadership and White supremacy . (Interjections) May you be advised further that the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition admitted on Friday that the White man will have to lead the Black man for a considerable time in the Transkei. You cannot eat your cake and have it, my dear friends . You cannot say on the one hand you do not accept White supremacy and on the other hand that you do accept it, if indeed you agree with your leader's views . (Interjections) This is what the United Party believes in - social and residential separation of the Bantu. OPPOSITION MEMBER : sives?
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : natural course of history.
That means in the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now the only thing, hon. Mr. Madikizela, is to tell you people that when you want to go to Cape Town you must prepare for war. The Leader of the Opposition , Sir de Villiers Graaff, has told you in no uncertain terms that before you get to parliament in Cape Town you will have to defeat them on the battlefield . (Interjections ) Why don't tell your people that they must get their rusty assegais ready? (Laughter) That they must get their stolen revolvers in order ? You should start off by doing that and not bluff the people . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: arms licences?
Where are the fire-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In 1968 during the session the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition had this to say about chiefs : "I pass on to the manner in which chiefs and the institution of chieftainship is being degraded by this GovernThe Constitution does involve these ment. chiefs in the politics of the Transkei by making them members of the Legislative Assembly, but this side of the House regrets the day when they were included in this particular body, which is divided up into political parties , for what is the position of a chief vis- à-vis his subjects ? He belongs to the TNIP , his subjects support the Democratic Party - and that is the general trend of political conviction in the Transkei . How is this chief going to administer the law over
And the Progres-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The policy of the Progressive Party is nothing but a policy
21 .
subjects who are politically at variance with him? Is it not a fact that at the moment chiefs have allowed themselves to be used as political tools by the TNIP ? That chiefs have
this whether they are being called to an administrative or a political meeting. On the one hand you criticize and say the Transkei National Independence Party supporters call ambiguous meetings and you do exactly the same thing. This shows beyond any shadow of doubt that you people are deceivers . (Majija , don't look at the time there is still enough time to chastise you .) Anybody who preaches what he does not practise is a deceiver and an imposter. (Interjections)
been agents to call political meetings for the TNIP ? Happy are the chiefs who are supporting the Democratic Party, for they think the same way as their subjects . " Hon. members , can the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say that today of Chief Zulu from Butterworth, whose subject is a member of the Cabinet on the side of the Government? (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition whether…....
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Can the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say that today of Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula , whose subjects elected the hon. Mr. Canca and the hon. Mr. Colly Dabula who are TNIP supporters ? Can the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say that today of Chief Nomtsheketshe ? Yea , can the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say that of the Paramount Chief of the Tembus , whose subjects have recently elected the hon. Mr. Lameck Madubela? I submit that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , together with his supporters , will have to advise these hon . chiefs to follow their people across the floor .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: other people's money?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I should have been arrested if I had taken anyone's money. You are going to cause a bye -election because you are too thin from so much drinking. Your leader stands for nothing else than the perpetuation of British imperialism and British capiThis was clearly talism in the Transkei. evinced by your leader yesterday when he criticized the XDC , a body which has been established to assist the African business and industrial entrepreneurs in the Transkei . He gave this House a most misleading statement. He quoted from the address by the honourable the Commissioner- General when he said that 61 shops had been handed over to the African people. He said only two or three shops had been bought over by the African people in the Transkei and even those , he said , were because these business entrepreneurs came with money from the Republic of South Africa . A legal man should know that once a contract of purchase and sale has been entered into and concluded , the assets , the profits of that shop accrue to the buyer. There are shops not included in the 61 shops which are merely managed by persons under the employ of the XDC , thus , obviously the profits must accrue to the XDC because they have not been bought, but the 61 shops that have been bought and sold to the African entrepreneurs have their profits accruing to those business entrepreneurs . Now, I am intrigued to find that out of the 61 shops , three have been subtracted and of the remainder the profits were added to the shops that have not He been bought by business entrepreneurs. further alleged that the XDC had not placed a report of its workings before this House . He should surely have known that the XDC is not under the Transkei Government and there is no obligation upon the XDC legally or otherwise to submit a report of its workings before this House , but an interested person should have taken the trouble to read the full report by the XDC of its workings which was published in the Daily Dispatch . To prove that the XDC is there for the promotion of the progress of business amongst our people , when once these business managers have been proved competent they are in turn given shops to run on their own account, without paying a cent as a deposit , the contract being that they shall pay the purchase price in agreed instalments between the
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear , hear. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition further chastises the Government on the grounds that the Government were using the chiefs as tools for calling their meetings . Didn't the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, together with his henchman, the hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani, call upon the paramount chiefs to call meetings when they saw that things were bad for them in the Dalindyebo area? (Interjections ) Yes , that is the lie you went and told to the paramount chief. You told the paramount chief that he had been sworn at by the hon. Mr. Madubela . You are the person who is pledged to cause disruption and dissension in Tembuland . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have here before me a copy of a record of meetings which were called by the paramount chief. OPPOSITION MEMBER:
Why did you take
Where did you get
it? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The people of Umtata hand these things to me. "To all chiefs and sub-headmen Ah Jonguhlanga ! I invite you to a meeting which will be held at the Great Place on 26th March , 1970. The headmen and residents of the administrative areas ofMputi , Baziya Mission , Sigubudu , Tabase , Upper Tabase , Tabase Mission , Mbolompo , Upper Ncise and Xongora must attend - J.S. Dalindyebo , Great Place , Sitebe . " Now , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition alleges that the chiefs and headmen are made by the TNIP to write ambiguous letters which they cannot decipher whether they be administrative or political. This is a most ambiguous letter. People cannot tell from
22.
who were members across the floor from Qaukeni. We have further evidence of a booklet read in a case of the State versus Roley Ahrenstein , who is known to be either a communist or a fellow-traveller of communism . This booklet was written by Roley Ahrenstein. Amongst other things he says :.... (Interjections )
XDC and the buyer. The XDC is starting , or in the process of starting, industries in the Transkei. Some of them were listed here by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition but it is erroneous and sheer stupidity for anybody to think that industries just spring up like mushrooms after a rainstorm . Many considerations have got to be gone into before any industry can be established . For instance , at Lusikisiki six years had to go by before the processing of tea was provided for , because tea takes that period to ripen and to be ready for processing. Likewise , it has taken as long a time before a phormium tenax decorticating plant could be established . How, how can any person fail to believe that you stand for White British capitalism in this country? They were the people who first came and flooded this , our mother- country. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on Friday accused this side of the House of being communists . It was on Friday that the dictum - namely, the best method of defence is attack was exhibited. A party which harbours near- communists , communist fellow- travellers , dares to label another party as communistic .
Hon. members , please , THE CHAIRMAN : while a member is speaking, be silent and do not make unseemly interruptions . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I quote : " The Democratic Opposition Party in the Transkei is doing a lot of work in the Transkei for the Communist Party. " Now , that is a direct statement involving the Democratic Opposition Party that they are doing very across the floor important work for the Communist Party in the Transkei . In any event, I do not see how people who believe in African nationalism can ever be communists . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, referring to the independence of the Transkei , had this to say: " Even if independence for the Transkei did come it would be a conditioned independence and would only be obtained after consultation with the Republican Government. The Republican Government would dictate the conditions of independence and it was on the cards that the Transkei would not be able to send ambassadors outside the Republic unless the Republican Government gave its approval . Those who drafted the Constitution , the Transkei National Independence Party, must again sit down and delete the word " Independence" from their Constitution . " For the benefit ofthe doubting Thomases with regard to the independence of the Transkei , I would like to quote a speech made by a very important Cabinet Minister in the Republic of South Africa . I refer to Dr. Hilgard Muller , the Minister of External Affairs . Dr. Hilgard Muller, Minister of Foreign Affairs , told an audience at a Pretorial election rally last night that if and when a state becomes independent there is no ceiling , no limits to their independence . Independent states have the right to enter into diplomatic relations with other countries , so this report knocks the bottom out of the argument and contention of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . (Interjections ) It was alleged that independence so far as the Transkei is concerned is a never- never world. This never- never world I remember well was used even in connection with the zoning of the towns in the Transkei. It was said no zoning would ever be done for the purpose of having some of the plots in the towns open for occupation and ownership by the African people . Everybody knows what has happened ; everybody knows that as a result of the zoning of the towns the Transkei has broken through the legislation which formerly debarred the Africans from owning land in municipal areas . (Interjections ) Likewise , everybody knows that as a result of zoning our people have been able to participate in businesses right inside the urban areas , not in the urban locations . I see the hon. chief from Butterworth looking at me. It is because right in the centre of Butterworth we have Mr. Mayekiso who has , in fact, rebuilt and improved a business concern which was existing before . He would never have been able to take over
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before the lunch adjournment I was still dealing with the allegations by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that this side of the House is composed of communists . I pointed out that I believe that the hon. member had taken advantage of a saying that the best method of defence is attack. I cannot understand how this side of the House can be called communists for we have evidence that some of the erstwhile members of that side, who have not ceased to be members , were either communists or fellow- travellers of communists . We have the case of the State versus Nogcantsi and Nkosiyane ; we have the tape recorder recordings of the discussion between those gentlemen and a certain Mr. Dunne ; we have evidence that some of the members who are sitting here were cited as communist friends , and that in any event the actions of those gentlemen who are today languishing in gaol have never been repudiated by any of the members across the floor . We had expected that statements repudiating the actions of those men, and even so far as dismissing them from the party for their actions , would have been done by the hon. members across the floor. We have a recent case involving one of the staunch supporters of the party to which the gentlemen across the floor belong. I am referring here to the case of the State versus Joyi and others which was tried in Pietermaritzburg , where he was convicted of subversive activities . Apart from that, we have been informed that during 1963 election deposits of some of the candidates in Eastern Pondoland came from communists in Durban. I refer here to some seven men
23 .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
that property if zoning had not taken place . (Interjections) You don't know that because you live in Ndabakazi . If you go to Idutywa you will find Sobuza having built a big supermarket right inside Idutywa. Would these things have happened if there had been no zoning? There is a hotel in Idutywa which is presently run by a trading company. To come back home here , there is the big Kadimah Store which has been purchased by Sobuza right inside the town. There is a Swalala café; there is also a big prestige hotel which would never have been built were it not for zoning. If you go with your eyes closed I am not going to try to become your sixth eye because you already have two pairs of eyes . If you go to Mount Frere you will find a big hotel which has already been handed over to a Transkei African. There is a hotel in Flagstaff which is being run by a certain Mr. Mgudlwa and one in Mount Ayliff which is being run by a Mr. Ludidi . How could these things have happened if zoning had not taken place ? The side across the floor always claims that we do not want the Transkei , we want the rest of the Republic . (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have already referred to the fact that thousands of people from as far as Zambia and Nyassaland still come to work in the Republic. Nobody ever knew that in the Transkei could be grown the commodities which today are grown in the Transkei. That is a sign that the Transkei is being developed industrially. I have already shown you that before 1963 there was no development whatsoever. (Interjections ) Yes , there is a lot of industrial development at Butterworth; there are factories which are being put up at Butterworth and the hon. chief would make us understand that there is nothing being done in Butterworth. That is why I feel he spends most of his time at the station and does not go out of the station to see what is happeining in his own area. I feel , therefore , that this side of the House is doing its utmost to improve the conditions in the Transkei. MR. L.L. MGUDWLA : Cabinet reshuffle .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
Tell us about the
Of course , THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : this cannot be done overnight. I have already told you to compare what you have today with what you had over 300 years ago. I feel that the development in the Transkei in many ways would have gone further were it not for the fact that the Opposition Party is a puncture in the wheel of progress in the Transkei . In those words , therefore , I have already moved that this House has full confidence in the Government.
We are THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : accused of making fantastic claims , but what is more fantastic - a person who makes claims that are genuine and based on law, or a person who makes claims which are baseless and not in accordance with any provisions of the law? In any case , neither your ancestors nor your greatgrandfathers , nor your grandfathers , nor your fathers ever owned any land outside the TransYou would not assist us when we were kei. making genuine claims on land which originally was part of the Transkei and you think you can In any event, get the rest of the Republic . there is legal provision for persons other than you to claim areas which formerly belonged to them . The Ciskeians in the Ciskei can claim their land. There is nothing to stop them. The nothing Zulus in Natal can claim their land to stop them ; so can Sothos , Vendas , Tswanas claim their land - nothing to stop them. What basis have you to say you want the rest of the Republic when you know you will never get it? Don't say I am claiming it, (Interjections ) because I am claiming what belonged to the I belong to the Transkei and the Transkei . So there you are , Transkei belongs to me. those people who say they want to claim land outside the Transkei . There are people there who are entitled to claim that land , and not you. It has been claimed that the (Interjections) Transkei will never be economically viable . It will be interesting to compare the progress of the Transkei more than 300 years ago up to 1963 with the progress of the Transkei from • 1963 to 1970. There are people , or there are private business people who today want to come to the Transkei and establish industries . Where were these people for more than 300 years ? Why couldn't they come to the Transkei to Why this sudden establish their industries ? interest in the Transkei? I have already said that I cannot understand the argument that because the Transkei becomes independent then the people of the Transkei cannot go and work outside the Transkei in the Republic . (Interjections)
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
MR. C. K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second the motion . MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak in support of the motion expressing a lack of confidence in the Government. I will not follow the decoy of the hon. the Minister of Justice in trying to shift the platform of this debate to lesser ground, neither am I going to attempt to defend the hon. the Leader of the Opposition against his vicious attacks . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition will be very well able to do that at the end of the debate when his turn comes . However , I have this to say : It is characteristic of the hon. the Minister of Justice and his party men to condemn a man out of hand and without a hearing and upon no evidence whatsoever . He does not know the reasons why the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was not here this morning, but he concludes that he intended to embarrass the House. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is a courteous man and when called upon to explain his absence he will satisfy I then revert to the remarks of the House . the hon. member as against the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland · that he will die heart-broken and disappointed because of temporary setbacks to his party....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They are permanent . 24.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He was criticizing the Republican Government and not our Government .
MR. MADIKIZELA : ……..caused by the ups and downs of politics . I wish to tell him that the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland is a great statesman with broad ideas . He will die honoured; he will die respected and his memory will be highly cherished. He knows that the policy for which he stands will eventually triumph. Remember - his stone they disdained , future generations will use for their cornerstone.
MR. MADIKIZELA: I thought he was a champion of the Whites . How can he criticize the Republican Government? THE CHIEF MINISTER; He is assisting Sir de Villiers Graaff.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear .
MR. MADIKIZELA: You are assisting Mr. Vorster, if not Mr. Hertzog . (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , if the hon. the Minister of
MR. MADIKIZELA : When the House adjournen on Friday afternoon the hon. the Chief Minister had stood up to say something superlative in regard to the address of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He choked and faltered and finally gave up the attempt. (Laughter) He then proceeded to request the adjournment adjournment to go home and try to recover his lost balance . I fear he has not quite done so . As a shattered man he has had to give the
Justice is going to portray before us the benefits of separate development he is not going to tell us about Swalala ; he is not going to tell us about Sobuza; he is not going to argue that because the Transkei has six departments therefore separate development is a success . He is not going to argue that because the Transkei has a treasury of its own, managed by Black officials dispensing its own revenue from the Transkei , that therefore separate development is a success . He is not going to tell us that because the Transkei has three Black magistrates dispensing justice to Natives exclusively , therefore separate development is a success . Those are trappings to an advertisement of a very cheap commodity. He is not going to argue that because the Transkei Government has built schools and the enrolment in those schools is phenomenal , therefore separate development is a success . He is not going to report to us that because the numbers of soicial beneficiaries have increased astronomically, therefore separate development is a success . He is not going to tell us about the bridges built and the roads constructed as trappings ; he is not going to tell us that in the Department of Agriculture nearly all the agricultural officers are Black . He is going to tell us much more than that. He is going to tell us that seven years ago and because of separate development a citizen of the Transkei is a better Native than any other Native in the Republic who is a citizen of no particular area.
leadership of his party to the hon. the Minister of Justice . I am going to supply those epithets that seem so elusive to him . The address of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was an admirable one and his study of the subject of separate development a superb example of an analysis of the principles involved.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He was completely out of subject .
MR. MADIKIZELA : I wish to congratulate him on the admirable manner in which he conducted the offensive against the Government. I also wish to commend the hon. the Minister of Justice in his vain attempt to defend the indefensible . ( Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MADIKIZELA : His greatest exultation was over the statement by the Leader of the Opposition about White leadership. As usual , and not surprisingly either, he completely misconstrued the statement of the hon. the Leader What the Leader of the of the Opposition . Opposition meant to say was a fair acknowledgement of an obvious fact. Long before even the hon. the Minister of Justice has thought of doing so , the White man has set his foot upon the surface of the moon that is the implication
THE CHIEF MINISTER: belongs to him.
He is.
The land
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He said nothing about that.
MR. MADIKIZELA: He is going to tell us that when the Native of the Transkei walks into the Republic he is respected as a citizen of a country; that he is not subject to the irritating indignities that ordinarily attach to the African in the Republic . He is going to tell us that seven years ago humiliation became a thing of the past for the people of the Transkei . He is going to tell us that because of the citizenship of the Transkei frustration is a thing of history for the Native of the Transkei . He is going to tell us that the Native of the Transkei can now stand up like the Roman of old and say: Civis Romanus sum, with meaning. He is going to tell us that he has now succeeded in bridging the gap between the salaries of the White man and the Black in the same job with the same qualifications.
MR. MADIKIZELA: He spoke about White leadership and that is what I am talking about.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where ? We have no White civil servants in the Transkei .
of the statement by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. We so often have to go overseas to to America, to Great further our studies Britain and even to Russia , but seldom if ever Here is a more apt to Malawi or Nigeria. illustration of what I have to say: For a long time to come , and especially under the present government of the Transkei , the White secretaries and the other loaned officials will continue to give guidance and service to the Transkei . That was the implication contained in the pronouncement of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
25 .
MR. MADIKIZELA : You have them. THE CHIEF MINISTER : belong to the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : on since you were born.
But they don't ....and that is a very MR. MADIKIZELA : prifitable thing for the Government of the There is a fee to every recruited Transkei. labourer. But I submit that the interest of the Transkei Government in its labour is only in so far as that fee is concerned . I am going to refer this House to some happenings in the dam construction areas . There the African complains that he is subjected to very harsh treatment. He complains in a loud voice that assault is the common inducement to work ; that if a man dies there because of the nature of the work the others are told that there are many more Natives in the Transkei to come and take his place . And that is quite correct too . If you go to the districts on labour days you see the hundreds of Africans queuing up for work. So harsh is the treatment there that some of the labourers have in their turn deserted . Braving the dangers of the way, they walk all the way from the Karoo, from the Orange River area, not caring for fatigue , hunger , imminent arrest They walk all the way through for trespass . land in these parts. What finally Maluti and has the Government done about these people ? Have they ever cared to investigate ? Have they intervened on behalf of the citizens of the Transkei' And the poor Native of the Transkei is open to a criminal charge for desertion , prosecuted under a law he had no hand in making, nor even his Government , and we are called upon to be inspired by this Government ! Mr. Chairman and hon. members , you will remember that some time last year ....
MR. MADIKIZELA : He is going to tell us that his civil service staff is a contented lot. He is going to tell us of that school where the White official trains in order to serve in the Transkei better than the African. He is going to tell us that in so far as the citizen of the Transkei is concerned , discrimination is a thing of the past before he can get away with separate development. He is going to tell us that the citizen of the Transkei can now, with a feeling of satisfaction , look up to the White man as equal and that that feeling is reciprocated. THE CHIEF MINISTER : happening in the Transkei . one who feels inferior.
That is what is You are the only
MR. MADIKIZELA : He is going to tell us that the citizen of the Transkei , going to the Republic .... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Stick to the Transkei.
MR . MADIKIZELA : A citizen of the Transkei , wherever he may be , has his citizenship guarded . A national has his citizenship guarded wherever he is . We have an empty vote to bring you into this House to support separate development. THE CHIEF MINISTER : to this House?
Why do you come
THE CHIEF MINISTER : viate the position?
MR. MADIKIZELA : To tell you these truths . THE CHIEF MINISTER: here .
You should not be
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Under what constitution would you take over?
I what government MR. MADIKIZELA: Two senior members of the Cabinet took a romantic excursion to the Republic , allegedly to go and explore labour possibilities for the citizens of the Transkei . They went out in style ; they came back in shame . (Laughter) So shamefaced were they that when they came back they did not report to this House . What they did was to make a report of presents given to the Government of the Transkei by certain bodies. I think it was a tractor of some kind, and I don't know what else . ( Laughter) That reflected ill on the Government of the Transkei . I asked a question in this House as regards that trip and as soon as he had seen my question the hon. the Chief Minister passed on a magazine to me and directed my attention to a picture of his person in that magazine . I must admit he looked very nice in a white coat, lithe and athletic , and very dapper. On the opposite page was the then hon. Minister of the Interior .
MR. MADIKIZELA : ....and we take our cue from the Republican Government. Since seven years ago the hon. the Chief Minister has shouted himself hoarse , clamouring for three extra departments to be given to the Transkei . He is going round the Transkei promising everybody that those departments are coming.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : -- don't worry.
Would you alle-
MR. MADIKIZELA : Is that an admission on your part that you cannot? A confession that you cannot? Resign and let us take over the government.
MR. MADIKIZELA : We on this side of the House can never have confidence in this Government .... THE CHIEF MINISTER : can you have confidence ?
That has been going
They are coming
MR. MADIKIZELA: ....but the promise is never fulfilled . He has not been able to account for his stewardship satisfactorily to the RepubUnfaithful in little things , lican Government. how can you aspire to greater ? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition touched broadly on the question of labour . I am going to touch further on a few of these points . Very largely the labour of the Transkei moves into the Republic , and that by recruitment....
MR. C. DABULA : 26.
Mr. Chairman and hon.
have been built and many pupils enrolled. The Government has employed Transkei children. Formerly there was one clerk in the magistrate's office and the rest of the clerks were White. Today the streets are full of Transkei children who are employed by this Government. The Transkei Government has created opportunities for its people . Today people own shops and trading stations. Formerly our people used to do their shopping miles away, but today they find the shops close by. They can buy their groceries close by. The Transkei Government should be congratulated on the creation of posts of Black magistrate for the Transkei , as well as African lawyers and attorneys and African prosecutors. Since I was born I am seeing for the first time the Black figure of a prosecutor and that is due to the Transkei Government, because it is something that is happening to our people who are being employed by the Transkei . I congratulate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for attaining a position that was never occupied by a Black man, but I have always been surprised whenever I have come across members of the Opposition party and tried to find out what their ultimate policy will be. Their only trouble is their failure to understand that they are dragging us into slavery . I will be very glad if any Opposition member will tell me for the information of the people at home what policy they will follow when they get into power. The Israelites were put out of Egypt and returned into Egypt. You are doing the same thing. If you go to the country and tell the people that this Government should be done away with they will burn down your houses because the people have confidence in this Government. You will see wonderful progress of the Government in the factories. Employment is now offered in the Transkei and our children are now employed here, some in Lusikisiki , others at Butterworth and still others in Umtata. There was formerly no employment in the Transkei for Transkeians , except beyond the borders of the Transkei , barring domestic employment. (Interjections) I congratulate the Government on its success in progress . They do not hurry like Hitler did, and they are top- notch. The Transkei Government is offering bursaries for your children. The financial report also indicates that your moneys are in good hands and that expenditure is worthwhile. The six departments of the Transkei have served the people of the Transkei faithfully. We have butchers ; we have traders . Several towns have been zoned Black and some people hold title deeds in the towns . All these things were formerly unknown. We were looked down upon as people who were not fit to come into urban areas . People are satisfied with their leader the leader of the governing party. People, as mentioned by the hon. the Minister of Justice, elected their representatives freely on their own, because they realised that the ruling party is ruling well , and I promise you they will continue that course because they This cow is a good have seen the benefits . milker and poor widows are being looked after now. They are happy because the Government considers them . I therefore say that the Government is top - notch and , as a matter of fact, even the jesting party has confidence in the Government.
members, I associate myself with the amendment which seeks to delete the word "no" and insert "full " . This week this House resolved to go back to the house of bondage. MR. K.M. GUZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, if I am correct there is no amendment which says " no" must be substituted by the word "full " before you and therefore I submit that the hon. member from Mount Frere is out of order. The amendment says ' to delete the words after "has " and substitute therefor the words "full confidence in the Government " . ' THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are wasting the time of the House . MR. DABULA: I have already said that if we go back to Egypt and accept the United Party policy.... MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I have raised a point of order. MR. DABULA: ... during which we have been under different forms of government , we know that in those days a teacher would receive a salary of R8 a month. It is a pity to have to dispute a joke which was made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. When I listened to him he was merely joking . (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the hon. member says the amendment seeks to insert the word " full " and delete "no" , whereas in effect the amendment is to delete all the words after "has " and substitute therefor "full confidence in the Government ". MR. DABULA: Mr. Chairman, I support the amendment. As I have already said, the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition was merely cracking jokes as if at a debating society. In his opening address , the honourable the CommissionerGeneral mentioned that the Transkei Government had achieved great success . Many countries congratulate the Transkei.
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Name them.
MR. DABULA: If my memory is correct, during World War II Hitler made the mistake of using bombs , paratroops and so on to destroy other countries , but he only succeeded in destroying his own country. Any government must see to the development of the people and that there is order among the people and employment and industries for the people . All these things the Transkei Government has fulfilled one hundred per cent . The people of the Transkei have • confidence in their Government. There is a saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Umtata has proved this and has proved that the present Government is a great Government. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned something that will mislead the people . He spoke on the reshuffle in the Cabinet. The important thing to remember is that even the Almighty had a change of ideas . He first decided that water should be on one side of the world and earth on the other . A large number of schools
27.
the split is because of the disagreement of the two leaders . As a matter of fact , I do not know which of the two leaders you support today Mr. Vorster or Dr. Hertzog .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if gold rusteth, what shall iron do ? I am not surpirsed at the tripe we listened to from the last speaker because , as I say, if the hon. the Minister of Justice rusteth.... (Laughter) It was a question of personalities with him and the usual thing is : If you take over the government what will you do ? We are concerned with policy - the policy of their Government. THE yours?
MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We don't support any leader . MR. ZIBI : You have allowed the masses of the Transkei to be used , shall I say, as a labour pool where anybody from any firm comes and dishes up a few Transkeians and returns to his firm or his farm , and gives them work for a few months . You have allowed that to happen. (Interjections) We told you that the border industries will still subject our people to influx control. Instead of allowing private enterprise intor the Transkei for industries you have allowed the XDC to come and do what it is doing in the Transkei today . When you speak of achievements you will keep on telling us about the Qamata irrigation scheme , the tea fields at Lambasi , that slum you want to put up in Matatiele , and that is all you tell us about. One would like to know from the hon. the Chief Minister where the marble deposits are today that were alleged to be in the Port St. John's area , and the coal in Indwe and the nickel deposits there were supposed to be . They have always boasted about the success of the TNIP in the last elections. They are aware of what happened that government cars were used for the purpose of organising meetings for their party.
And with
MR. ZIBI : I am talking about policy. And what a pity it is that during the space age when man is on the moon, we are busy discussing "apartheid" in this House - a retrogressive Before I go policy in this civilized world. further, let me make it clear to the Government that they inherited this policy from the Republican Government so that whatever evils are found in the Republic are to be found in their government.
And you THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : inherited yours from the United Party. MR. ZIBI : In fact, the Transkei Government has no confidence in itself. Proof of that is that they retain continuously the notorious Proclamation R400 just because they have no confindence in themselves . We have repeatedly ased them, to make it easy for the electorate of the Transkei , to introduce the use of symbols in the Transkei to avoid trickery and chicanery and they have refused because they have no confidence in themselves . As I say, man is on the moon already and what could be wrong in having an African, an Indian and a European in the team that went up to the moon? (Laughter) Now, let us look at the policy. There is the East and the West. On the western side they claim to be democratically inclined and in the East is Communism . Now, which side are we getting to in the Transkei ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We used our private cars .
MR. ZIBI : Maluti region .
That is not true.
I saw government cars in the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : cars.
We used private
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Nobody can deny that in those MR. ZIBI : cars there was liquor and the people of the Transkei assume that this was bought with government money , and perhaps until the contrary is proved I will say the same myself.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Democracy . MR. ZIBI : Can you quote one country in the western world where the composition of an assembly could be two-thirds ex officio members and only a third elected members ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is ridiculous . THE CHIEF MINISTER : England. English parliament has lots of lords.
The MR . ZIBI : In so far as the general election is concerned , there is no reason for anyone to boast because we know how it happened .
MR. ZIBI : Only yesterday, after we had rejected this policy of separate development, the Coloured Council was rejected just because of this same policy. We claim we are a parliament and they are a council , but what are the rates of pay? They are definitely better than ours . We are trying to impress it upon the Government. Last year I pointed out to you that there was a crack right at the top and that is why there are these "verkramptes " and "verligtes" and I am sure the crack is coming right into the Transkei because we are not satisfied with the Government. People in the Transkei are starving; they are experiencing terrible disabilities as a result of this policy. The policy you have inherited and the cause of
THE CHIEF election?
MINISTER:
And the bye-
MR . ZIBI : Now, this policy has caused a lot of difficulty in that these poor Africans have got to be moved from place to place , even right from their own areas , because of rehabilitation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you opposed to rehabilitation? MR. ZIBI : The position is that you get these people out of the cities and they get to their areas (what you call the homelands , but in fact
28.
I do not know whose land it is ) and when you get to the homelands you are still moved from one end to the other and the people have no means of putting up homes in these homelands .
MR. ZIBI : They would never have hammered for their language if that was their decision . All I know is we were supposed to have sent to them to get their opinion.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Let me ask you a fair question. The Republican Government sends these people away and they have no places , and they invoke certain provisions of an Act which the Republican Government has passed and we have no control over that. What must we do with the Transkeian citizens finding themselves in the most awkward position when they come back to the Transkei ? What must we do with those people?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you know that the hon. the Minister of the Interior , myself and the then Secretary for Education went to Maluti tc interview the people? MR. ZIBI : You met a few people at Matatiele , a few Government "good boys" , (Laughter) but here is a child using Xhosa at home and the parents using Xhosa and the parents taught Xhosa, and he is suddenly taught Zulu , despite your ethnic grouping . What will happen? Now we return to sport. The hon. the Chief Minister happened to be a sportsman - he did kick a football occasionally. He is aware that as a result of that policy of separate development South Africans , White , Black or otherwise , are not wanted anywhere in the world.
MR. ZIBI : This is the policy you are accepting. What I am getting at is this - that after you have moved them to one place , the next year you move them away again. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I would not like to go on with this free bioscope , Mr. Chairman. All we are interested in is to save the people belonging to the Transkei when they are thrown out, and we have to do the best we can. As to what happens after that, that must depend on the usual arrangements that are made for everybody.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come back to the motion. You are discussing South Africa now.
MR. ZIBI : I am discussing it and you are aware that a Transkei team was supposed to meet a team in Swaziland and the match was cancelled because of this policy . Ifthe Ministers would hold meetings , go round and find the sufferings and disabilities that the Transkeians are undergoing ....
MR. ZIBI : The Tomlinson Report Recommended that an area must be developed so that at least a certain percentage of the people can get jobs . Now, development in the Transkei has been so slow in that our Government refuses , despite the fact that we have tried year in, year out to get them to get money from the Republican Government, so rich though the Republican Government is that it is able to give loans to other countries. All they tell us is " hasting steadily" and meanwhile the Republican Government is sending people away to the Transkei and you have this practice of ethnic grouping in the Transkei - Pondos one way and Mpondomisis the other way. Where have you ever found that in the Republic ? There you find Afrikaners , Portuguese , Spanish all mixed up together.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: How many meetings did you address before you came here ? MR. ZIBI : Ten. (Laughter) If you look at the condition of the roads in the Transkei you will realise they are very bad . The people in the Transkei believe that there are certain regions on which you are concentrating , certain regions which are getting on, and there are others that are totally neglected . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Because you are staying in Johannesburg . MR. ZIBI : Time and again we hear from the throne something from Qamata and the next thing is at Lusikisiki . (Laughter) This year we heard of a vocational school that to to be opened in Lusikisiki ,
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you find ethnic grouping in the Transkei ? MR. ZIBI: Now let us get down to facts in the Transkei since the inception of this Government and see what the position is . Before I do so, you say school -children have got to be taught in their mother tongue. What is the position today of the Basutos in the Maluti region? What language are they being taught? THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is open already . MR. ZIBI : Where is the sense in sending that school to Lusikisiki ? Don't you consider convenience and the state of the roads ? Mount Ayliff is in that region and is on the national road. It could have been put in Mount Ayliff instead of Lusikisiki . Cotton fields , tea fields , coffee and what not, and all sorts of things in Qamata .
Mother tongue.
MR. ZIBI : Can you imagine , if we take a son of the hon. the Minister of Justice who is Xhosa -speaking and teach him Zulu inthe Transkei ? That is what is happening in Maluti . You are teaching Northern Sotho instead of Southern Sotho.
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , what is his complaint? In your area you have Ramahlokoana being established for you.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I put a question? Do you happen to know that this was the decision of the Maluti people themselves ?
MR. ZIBI : 29.
The township referred to by the
Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkei Appropriation Bill , 1970. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Appropriation Bill , 1970 , and I move that the bill be now read a first time .
hon. paramount chief I regard as a slum because there is no catchment area there . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Wait and see . MR . ZIBI : Because of this policy of yours you cannot move along with the times and make sure that even if there should be sufficient
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second , Mr. Chairman.
water in the township we have waterborne sewerage , but there is no catchment area there . In any event we are waiting to see this slum come to life. If you look around all the other regions Maluti , Dalindyebo - what has this Government done for them?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression that the hon. the Chief Minister would apply for leave to introduce this bill and have it read a first time , in view of the fact that it does not appear on the agenda, and I thought he did indicate that he would make such application.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the time allotted to each speaker is 30 minutes , I move the adjournment of the House until 11 a.m. tomorrow.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is quite correct . I thought the Chairman had allowed me to move the first reading . I hope the House has no objection to the action which I have taken.
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21st April , 1970 .
THE CHAIRMAN:
Does the House agree ?
Agreed to.
TUESDAY , 21st APRIL , 1970
Prayers were read.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The second reading of the bill will be on Friday 24th April, at 2.15 p.m. That is the Budget Speech, which
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
is the most important in any parliament. You must listen carefully.
ANNOUNCEMENTS The bill was read a first time . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have to announce to the House that the hon. the Minister of Justice is indisposed and will not be able to attend the session today. I also have to inform the House that in the absence of the hon. the Minister of the Interior , the hon. the Minister of Education will attend to all his matters . Should anyone have to make inquiries in connection with that department he will have to approach the Minister of Education . With regard to Justice matters , which may be for a day or two , I will attend to those matters .
NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to prove in no uncertain terms that the Government enjoys the full confidence of the House. In a very much revealing statement, an Opposition member made "Don't you know that White the interjection : children are carried on the backs of Black servants ?" It is therefore clear , Mr. Chairman , that their aim in this multi- racialism is to go and carry on their backs White children. I am rather anxious because they are going to be half Black. Anyway, those are some of the tragedies of life . A follow-up of South African history reveals the following - that starting way back in 1652 up to the present moment the Whites in South Africa , though they may differ in opinion, are unanimous in one thing - that there is no place near them for the Black man. If moments of truth had not come to such men as the late J.G. Strydom ( I want to quote the words he "The Bantu is a human used in parliament : being and we cannot continue to sit on his head indefinitely"; and such a moment of truth also came to the late Dr. Verwoerd. He realised that the African deserves a place in the sun, a if such place in which to prove himself. ) moments of truth had not come to the two men I have just mentioned , we would be worse off than we are . We would still be a frustrated , grumbling and confused people. Some of you would have us not use such an opportunity. Some
Mr. Chairman, I notice that the order paper for today is not what it should have been in terms of the notice of motion tabled by me yesterday. After the Notices of Bills ( Item No. 6 ) I will make application to this House to allow me to move my bill. ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHAIRMAN THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the leaders of both the Government Party and the Opposition Party and the · Chairman have agreed to allow a television company to televise the proceedings ofthe Assembly on Wednesday morning, 22nd April , at 10 o'clock. All the members of the Assembly are requested to be in their seats by 9.45 a.m. on the abovementioned date . APPROPRIATION BILL , 1970
FIRST READING
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in terms of section 53 of the 30.
based on multi- racialism but on separate develCan't you realise that your cry for opment. multi - racialism never travels beyond the walls of this hall? In 1963 we put forward our policy and you came up with yours . Why is it that you have failed to reach the hearts of those other South Africans whom you offered to share the Transkei with? I shudder to think that it is only the Opposition of the Transkei who , in a world of dreams , will share South Africa with the Whites. I must say that some of you have since realised that Cape Town parliament is in the land of Never-never . However , a dream has to be realised and in order to realise the dream all you do is to close your eyes . Imagine that you are the Republican Government and you go ahead with your criticism of the Repiblican Government. You will say , I know, that it is a question of the sins of the father being visited on the son. I label it as nothing else but confusion. We have not come here to indulge in fantasy . It was interesting to note that when the hon. member for Ngqeleni stood up to speak he spent a good 15 minutes praising the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . We have not come here to sing praises ; we have come to deal with methods of state . It is interesting also to note that he decided to adopt a negative approach towards some of our achievements. He only succeeded in really pointing out what things have been achieved. I would warn him that next time he should try not to anticipate us at every turn. It is said that three men of different nationalities were once asked to state their wish. One said: I wish to have power over the world through my language . The other one said: I wish to become a very good businessman; and when the last one was asked he merely said: Oh no, I was merely accompanying these other gentlemen . A man who denies himself a chance of self- realisation is no different from the last man. In a multi - racial society you will never have any say but will only be there to keep the other gentlemen company. In fact, it is what you have been doing even now. We are pleased to have you here . One sometimes fails to understand what manner of man you are. You claim that what we aspire for is a thing of the never- never . You keep on shouting that the ship is sinking and you never dissociate yourselves from the sinking ship .
of you would deny their sons and daughters a place in the sun, and it is most astonishing and not only astonishing , but astounding that it is in pursuit of a dream . A certain famous writer once said : " There is a tide in the affairs of men which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune . " I am thankful to realise that the responsible members of this House did not let such an opportunity for the Transkei go by. I am sorry that some of the members who are now members of the Opposition who, for one moment, saw the light and then reverted to the general confusion. Prior to the advent of selfdevelopment the Africans in all corners of Africa had a cry and that cry was against oppression - oppression due to the fact that the Africans stayed with the Whites who at the same time denied them the right to exercise what trade or profession they were capable of so exercising. Such a cry resounded even in the corners of the Transkei , but I am glad to note it is gradually dying down. It can only be heard in a few isolated places from a few isolated cases . I will tell you what has led to its dying down. It is because through the advent of separate development the African can in his own territory, according to his capability, rise to any level . It is because the African, as I have also said before, now has a place in the sun , developing which he will not only do so with a great sense of pride , but will move heaven and earth to attain what is best for him . It has died down because those of us endowed with a sense of responsibility have seen that with true separate development they now have a chance to manage their own affairs . They have come out of a world of shadows where it was " John, John " all the time . At this stage I am reminded of a certain poem which begins thus : "Breathes there a man with soul so dead who never to himself has said: This is my own, my native land. " We have amongst the members of the Opposition many such men. They take no pride in their land, the Transkei . They laugh when we try to get more land for the Transkei , something in which we are going to succeed . Who can trust them when they cannot appreciate their very own and say: No , we will be able to live better with our own people - when they cannot appreciate their own, own land. They would rather see it reduced to a provincial status and not a government in its own right. A man content with mere provincial status men of wisdom - are they endowed with sane minds? Do they ever think in broad terms of the future of their children? I am sorry that at this stage I will touch on a subject which is taboo. It is rewarding to note that some of their erstwhile followers , especially in Umtata, have had the cobwebs removed. They are In the last byebeginning to see the light. election they showed in no uncertain terms that they can no longer allow the blind man to lead them . They see multi- racialism for what it is - a mere dream , a dream in which the people who fear responsibility wish to lose themselves . If one follows the trend of events in South Africa pertaining to other national units , one comes to but one conclusion that other African national units in South Africa realise that the only solution to their problems is true self-development. Their systems of government are not
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Resign ! THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : You say we will never reach nationhood and yet you do not leave the sinking ship. MR. R. MADIKIZELA : the ship .
We want to steer
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : You know it has a good captain who will see it safely home and you are waiting patiently for what will be reaped at the end of the voyage . You are always ready to share in the fruits of our labour. Let us take the question of zoning. Didn't you at one stage say it was a thing of the nevernever? And I will remind you , especially with Umzimkulu , do you still say so? Maybe your "never" is not "never" but "ncam , ncam". (Laughter) Some of your supporters are at this 31 .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the motion of no confidence in the Government.
very moment enjoying the fruits of our labour . As usual , I mention Lusikisiki because that is One of your the constituency I represent . supporters who ran a shop of sorts in the country for a number of years is now running a prosperous business in Lusikisiki , a town which has been zoned black through the efforts of our government. The Government has not said we are going to isolate you in a town. Instead, the Government , because it has the interests of the people at heart, is helping that man to run his business in all the ways it can. The very man I am talking about enjoys the privilege of having that is , meat contwo government contracts tracts in two of its colleges . When it comes to his purse he sees the good in us . While he sees the good in us and enjoys some of the privileges , he does not at the same time want other people to get their fair share . (Interjections )
This is an important motion which brings out the truth as it stands . I am going to follow up the speeches made yesterday and today . One of the speakers on the governing side said we on the Opposition side number only 15, and alleged that we are gradually losing ground . Let me make it clear to him that even if we have fewer members, what we say clearly speaks the truth and we are firm on our ground. The policy of separate development was planned a long time ago by people who had long foresight. The hon. the Minister of Roads and Works said it was Mr. Strydom and Dr. Verwoerd who prophesied about this . Yes, there is a certain amount of truth in what she said , but they followed what was said long before their time . This is what those people discerned as they had a vision. They saw a crowd, thousands of Bantu children attending school , attending institutions , and this is what they thought: What is going to happen to those increasing numbers of children in 20 or 30 years' time ? Those who were shortsighted said: You need not worry yourselves about them . These people will not make any progress . Yet they saw thousands and thousands of Bantu in the distance approaching, and because these people had intelligence and clear foresight they decided that they could not just sit and do nothing in connection with this matter and they sat down for years planning, up to the time of the late Prime Minister, Dr. Verwoerd , and he decided to implement this scheme . You must realise clearly and I have already stated that it was due to the foresight of some people . These people who had this foresight saw to it that they should create some small plot where they could keep these people so that even if these people grew and demanded some rights they would be told that their forefathers had refused to accept what they were given, or had accepted what they had been given. As you see us here today , we follow up that question. Remember that there was at one time a certain council which had its offices in Pretoria. That council had to advise the Government. Paramount Chief Poto was one of the members of that council, and other members were Molema , Thema and others. What was the reason for closing down that council? It was because they spoke out their minds that they did not want separate development. (Interjections ) They thought that separation of the people was most unhealthy for the people . One speaker yesterday kept on howling that we on this side speak on behalf of the White people , but it is not the case . That speaker only wanted to bluff those people with small minds. This is what we stand for - that all people , irrespective of their race , should be represented as they are all human beings. MR. C. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know from the hon. member whether he means that Indians , Russians , Chinese must come to the Transkei.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: It is not a privilege . THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I will call such a man nothing else but an opportunist. Anyway , we welcome many such opportunists because our policy is to work for the general good of the people of the Transkei . Much has been said of this policy, that the Government is hastening slowly. I shudder to think what would happen were you to be allowed to govern for just a month. I can imagine the industrial empires which would sprout up overnight , standing on shaky legs and managed by some of my friends across there , and I wonder how the two hon. members from Engcobo would do. ( Laughter) We know what we want to do , and when we establish any business inthe Transkei , as we have already made a start in Lusikisiki and Butterworth , we shall always make sure that what business we have established is on firm ground and is working well . We cannot afford, when we are responsible for the people , to be trying this , trying that and never succeeding in anything. The two schools (that is , the technical college at Umtata and the vocational school at Lusikisiki ) show clearly that the Government is aiming far . We have realised that academic education on its own can never set a country on a proper economic basis . I need not remind you of how the Government has embarked on a bursary scheme so that we might have as many of our children fitted for the posts that are fast becoming vacant in the Transkei Government. You hope we will take somebody who does not even know that particular job and just fit him in there . We are shaping our youth and they will run the Transkei the way we would like to see it run. Now I must say: Stop crying yourselves hoarse seeking for something which is well beyond your reach. You can imagine all the other national groups know what is good for them. It is only a dwindling Opposition in the Transkei which does not know. I am sorry but I will give you some homework in the next year. Think deeply of the Transkei ; think deeply of the future of your own children; think deeply of a love of one's country which you must teach your children, and, for goodness ' sake , realise
MR. JAFTA: There is nothing to reply to in that question. I am going to continue with my speech. He also stated that (Laughter) they want Port St. John's , Umzimkulu , Matatlele ,
when it is no time for dreaming, especially an elusive dream . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 32.
etc.
It is true that a few people have got some If only a few get such privileges privileges . and millions of people do not achieve such privileges , what will be the use of it? Today we are suffering and getting things which do not tend to help us. Through this system the little children who grow up in the Transkei do not see their fathers and they never enjoy the discipline of their fathers . There is not a single nation which can become a nation without its young receiving sound training . To get such training it must be through the mother and father living in one place . It is our experience that the majority of children are born during That lowers the the absence of the father.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Answer the question. It is relevant. He alleged that we on this MR. JAFTA: That is not side did not want those areas. true . What we want is not only those areas , but others as well, because here we represent the whole of South Africa . Many people think we dream when we speak in this manner. As I have already stated , those White rulers foresaw something which was undiscernible to a great number of people , as the paramount chief and other members of that Natives ' Representative Council saw something which was not good for the people . Truth will remain the truth and no amount of lies can keep the truth covered . Quite a lot has been said about stores belonging to people who came from Johannesburg and other places to the Transkei.
prestige of the people.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR . JAFTA : All children should be corrected by being punished both by the father and the mother, and the fact that this is not so is owing to the fact that people have been debarred from getting employment beyond the borders of the Transkei. Reference was made to the zoning of the towns. As far as that is concerned , there is a certain privilege . You will find that only a few enjoy this privilege , while the majority are those people who are oppressed . A government will not make a good government if they do not take consideration of the wants of the people. I have stated that our hon. paramount chief is a man of vision . He saw that this policy was no good because it will bring oppression on the people . The people of the Transkei all suffer under this situation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They are Transkei citizens . MR. JAFTA: I admit that, but they accumulated money in those centres and today you are driving those people away. They are uncertain when they come to this area whether they will find fortune or misfortune , because they come to a poor country and poverty tends to creep over to other people . We fear that many people who come from those centres will suffer when they come here.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: to Johannesburg?
Why don't you go
MR. JAFTA : It has been said that the hon. Paramount Chief Poto and Mr. Guzana wanted this country to become a province . Even if they said such a thing their aims were too high to be understood by the majority of these people . Their aim was that this country should be joined up with the whole of South Africa . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Assembly?
(Interjections )
MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment that this House has full confidence in the present (and will ever be present) Government , because we do not mind the Opposition barking at the Government . A dog will never bark at a shepherd. It is only when it starts barking at the moon that it shows it is a dog . This recalls to my mind what was said by the hon. member for Maluti when he visualised a time when Indians , Americans , Chinese and perhaps Russians will fly to the moon simultaneously, but I wonder where he will leave his wards at that time , because I understand that he was chief "induna" of Crown Mines , and of course he is just barking at the moon. Now I shall come to those people who bark at the substance of the Government. I was surprised at the attitude taken by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who is known to be a devout Chirstian . My frind here says he is a good precentor , but I do not know because I have never attended his church , but his personal attack on the hon. the Minister of Justice was rather below his calibre . I wonder whether the hon. the Minister of Justice inherited this from the portfolio that he previously had the portfolio of education, because it is traditional for the Opposition to bark at the education vote and to claim a misfit is rather below him . From what I know , the hon. Minister concerned fits in every sphere. In fact, he is a uility man and the time when he was Minister of Education is a time we shall never forget. It was really the time when education in the Transkei went up by leaps and
And dissolve this
MR. JAFTA: Their aim was that we should not be crowded together in this " pondokkie " . He spoke at length saying we are joined hand in glove with the United Party. That is a false allegation, as we have nothing to do with the United Party. There could be certain talks between us which are common to such bodies , such as when you speak with another body you have things in common, but the spirit is different. The hon. the Minister of Roads and Works stated that we on this side wish to carry the children of the Whites for ever. It is good for one to carry a White child on his back when there is need to do so , as much as for a White to carry a Black child when it is necessary, (Laughter) because all are human beings . Again , the hon. Minister stated that we have got a place in the sun where we could have a rest. This is not departing from what was practised - that is , staying in a " pondokkie " , which we refuse to accept. Under separate development a Bantu suffers quite a lot because a Black man is debarred from the chances to go and seek employment beyond the Transkei boundaries . Millions upon millions of Bantu suffer from this .
33.
bounds. In fact, if you go to any part of the Transkei you will see imposing buildings that he has helped to put up. Many primary schools have been opened , to say nothing of secondary and high schools . Could you call such a man a misfit, unless you are grinding an axe? He has successfully acted for his brother , the hon. the Chief Minister , and he left no stone unturned in performing those duties . But I will go further now. I just mentioned that in passing and I wish the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will at some time see his fault and apologize . After all , this Government is the only government of the Transkei within its boundaries . Now, all the criticism which has been levelled against the Government seems to have been a misfit because , after all , all these matters they refer to are matters which pertain to the Republican Government , such as influx control and the lot of them - R400 and other such as repatriation. It reminds me of a hymn he always presents , in which case we suppose he wants us to carry the sins of the Republican Government. The hon. member from Maluti says we are heirs to the Republican Government and so we should carry its sins , but he forgets that an heir is not responsible for the sins of omission or commission of the father until the father is dead , because the Government of the Republic is still there and will be there for the next two decades .
mean attack was made on the XDC by people who do not study the conditions and I hope that when they make such mean attacks they should first inquire and find out the truth of the conditions of the loan. For the hon . the Leader of the Opposition to style the XDC as siphoning the treasure of the Transkei into the Republic the very word " Xhosa " Development Corporation earmarks all those funds for the Xhosa- speaking unit and has nothing to do with Pretoria . Now, the XDC , for all I know, went out of its way to the cities and there was even a commission about the prospects in the Transkei , while you sat here comfortably and did not explain these provisions to the Transkei . A few people from the Republic , from Cape Town , Port Elizabeth and Johannesburg who are citizens ofthe Transkei took advantage of this offer and none of them contemplates returning to Cape Town or to any Instances have been quoted of those cities . which I do not care to repeat. Now , to help you gentlemen on the other side who pretend not to see these developments , the way to the XDC is simple, particularly for the younger man. Tell them when you hold meetings that they can apply to the XDC for loans , but the conditions that they lay down are simple too , because the men must be competent to do the job. He must be trained in order to safeguard that money which he is going to be lent. After a period in which he serves as a manager , if he makes
OPPOSITION MEMBER : that?
a success of the business then he is given an option to buy the shop and if he does not want that particular shop he can apply for another. Now, supposing there is a man who is perhaps too old to be trained , like myself, he has got to deposit a certain amount of money to show what he has been doing all these years , because he has not many, many years to go. Now, is that very difficult, gentlemen? What can you say against the XDC ? What do you think the XDC officials are going to think when you style them as you do? I can assure you that they are very helpful. In fact, I have dealt with them and they wonder why more of you do not approach them for help. Now , coming to the hon. member for Maluti who is at the same time an "induna " for Crown Mines , when he is not in parliament . He hardly has time to hold meetings . He said he had ten meetings , but I think he only had three . He makes no distinction between the White officials and the general White public who should leave the Transkei some time or When the Leader of the Opposition in other. the Republican Government said that the White man will ever, for the foreseeable future , be in charge of affairs in the Republic , he says : But you do the same , you are keeping your White seconded officials . I am sorry that hon. gentleman is interfering with the men I want to listen, because I want to educate him to the fact that these White officials are distinct from the White people we want to leave the Transkei after they have trained us in industry. He refers to ministers going round the Republic begging for funds , and how they were given certain presents such as tractors , but that is not the aim of ministers going round . In fact , I do not know whether that came from the Republican Government, but what they go there for is to see Republican officials and discuss matters at top level , not only to go and account
How do you know
MR . MADIKIZELA : I know the Opposition are composed of such people who act like Lord Nelson at the Battle of Trafalgar, I think it was , when he pretended he did not see the signal that was put there by his senior because he could not see it because his eye was blind. You do not see these developments ; you do not see that the Republican Government has another span of 20 or 30 years to go and you do not see your fate although your members are dwindling so rapidly. Although we would not like to see you eliminated altogether out of the House , because then we would have a one- party state which we do not like , because as I said earlier, We do not mind what you you have to bark . do, we go on. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Till you fall , because you will fall . MR. MADIKIZELA : Now, a lot was said by the Opposition about development in the Transkei and that certain regions are being favoured for In fact, two such regions were development. quoted, but they forget that industries have got to be established where the raw material is easily available . Who would ever dream , besides you, of establishing a tea plantation in the Maluti mountains , and who would think of irrigation in a part of the country where the terrain is rough and steep? So you must consider those things which have to be taken into account before these industries are sited . The conditions are such at Qamata and Lambasi that these projects could succeed . I hope you will appreciate that point, but nobody is stopped from suggesting to the Government any projects which he thinks could be undertaken. Now, a serious and very
34.
afternoon .
for their stewardship because they are not responsible to the Republican Government. I have had the privilege of accompanying these ministers at some time or other and have heard with my own ears when the hon. the Chief Minister or any other Minister responsible for his department discussing matters at top level with officials of the Republican Government. I remember at one time the hon. the Minister of the Interior discussing employment matters with officials of the department and opening up avenues for which the Opposition now complains that people are working too hard. That is no matter for the Government , and we are not going to take up matters which have not been reported, but if they were reported then the Government, of course , would take up matters easily with the Republican Government. I wonder how far true that is , because on one of our tours with the hon. the Chief Minister we found there were certain allegations made by people that they were chased away from industries and told to return to Matanzima in the Transkei . That was in Natal - in Durban and 'Maritzburg and other places . Now at the audience we asked just one man to stand up and say that was done to him, and you will be surprised that not one stood up. At the same time the hon. the Chief Minister took the matter up with the authorities. ( Interjections ) The assurance that was given by the officers there was that any employee who says such a thing should be reported immediately , and that serious action would be taken against him , but that is about two or three years ago and we have never had any complaints made to us . So you should take these complaints with a pinch of salt before you bring them to the Assembly. Now, the hon. member from Maluti again spoke of ethnic grouping in the Transkei . I do not understand just what he means because we are all here supposed to be Xhosa - speaking. Perhaps what he is obsessed with is the position in the Transvaal where there are really ethnic groups in a location , and if he does not know his group it is not for me to direct him where his group is . Just to show how he takes matters so easily when he spoke of the mother tongue instruction in the Maluti region , which he did not investigate , and how it was proved beyond doubt that this was recommended by the people themselves in his absence in the Transvaal. Now, to show that this hon. member from Crown Mines has no appreciation of whatever is done by this Government or any other government, the Government has embarked on a very ambitious policy in establishing Ramahlokoana township six miles from Matatiele . He says it is the wrong site because there is no water, no catchment area (I don't know what he means by that) , and I happen to have been connected with that scheme for some time , and I know that there is plenty of water at Ramahlokoana and that the town is being planned on modern lines . Big flats are going to rise there and he can go and acquire a plot there so that he can build with no limit and be in charge of affairs there in that town and have no reference to the people in Matatiele . But do you know what he calls it , Mr. Chairman? He says it is a slum even before it is put up , Sir .
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . In a thought-provoking , clear -minded , foresighted, well - reasoned and all -embracing speech I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has indicted the Transkei Government in that he has indicted the Government of its wicked weakness , ineptitude and general shabbiness . Why? Because · that is , of the policy that they are following the policy of separate development . Because of this policy of separte development this queerly isolated nook called the Transkei stinks in the nostrils of the world like a skunk or like rancid fat. (Laughter) In fact, I do not foresee any day when the Transkei will ever set its foot on the threshold of the hall of fame , because for ever it is doomed to the hall of shame . There are three things you get (Laughter) the registration of your birth , the registration of your marriage and then, finally, the registration of your death . In all these registrations there is a certificate that is issued . A child is born and baptized and named once throughout its life . I will have to refer now and again to history because without history citizenship has no root, and without citizenship history has no fruit. How many times has this sick child called "separate development " been baptized and named and renamed? If one goes back to history we shall find that there was a famous speech that was made about 50 years ago - that was at the start of this present Nationalist Party. It was silent on the question of the separation of races for all time , only it was a valid attempt to find a home for the Afrikaner group, which it did . Some psuedo history students have told that the late Mr. Strydom and Dr. Verwoerd were the protagonists of this policy of separate development. With due respect, Mr. Chairman, I submit to the House that that is a historical inaccuracy which further makes this policy of separate development a damnable anachronism . (Laughter) The originator of this policy of separate development , if I think I remember wel :, is the late Professor In a series of lectures that he Hoernle . delivered at the University of Cape Town before he died, he called it the " partitioning of races " . Then shortly after World War II there cropped up an election programme that was called the "swart gevaar " . (Laughter ) Then the late Dr. Malan found himself in a dangerous quagmire . He had to come out with an ideology in order to combat the " swart gevaar" . However , he was soon rescued by the late Dr. Verwoerd from this position of embarrassment. Firstly this thing called separate development was called "apartheid"; then they re -baptized this child and named it afresh , but it was in dirty bath -water when it was re - baptized . ( Laughter ) It was
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 this
35.
elected him . In fact, when the odds are high against you they always favour you . Once when I visited that section I found some of these big black wild turkeys carrying their big kerries behind the people . (Laughter ) Even when these campaigns are being done you find these turkeys . Where is the confidence in a Government like that? I think, in fact, by putting an amendment to the motion of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition it is tantamount to the last kicks of a dying horse. For example , I remember during the last session, on Wednesday , 14 May , an announcement was made in this very House by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and he was lauded by each and every member of this House in connection with the ploughing scheme. Dismay or disdain , whatever one may call it, when I got to Engcobo I found in a quarterly meeting an announcement was made that no people who have not accepted rehabilitation will get any credit facilities for ploughing. Only those who have accepted will get credit. It was specifically laid down that, in fact, in the whole of the Engcobo district which is a district of about 64 administrative areas , only part of Qumanco (the farm that has been rehabilitated) and Cwecweni administrative area would get it. At Cwecweni you will find the in- laws of the hon. the Minister of Justice . (Laughter ) That is tantamount to a rape of the rights of the people , because if drought sets in famine sets in. It is immaterial My whether you have rehabilitated or not. poor electorate in Engcobo, when it came to this sad announcement it was just like children when they are expecting to see Father Christmas and on Christmas Day they see a bald - headed and clean- shaven Father Christmas . Where is the confidence there ? The second speaker - in fact , the hon. member for Mount Frere who spoke delivered what is tantamount to a damp squib. (Laughter ) In fact , it was no more than a civic lecture . I have never seen a dead speaker delivering a dead civic lecture to a dead legislative Assembly. I really thought he was certifiable . ( Laughter) Now we come to the need for the economic development of the Transkei . Why? The population of the Transkei increases day by day but the land shrinks day by day and then it is said that agriculture is our mainstay. Who has access to the lands ? Old men, women and children , because the ablebodied have to leave the Transkei and go to the Republic as migrant labourers . To substantiate my submission , Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I quote from the General Agricultural Journal where it is pointed out that the average Transkeian could earn for himself and his family the princely sum of R174 per annum by working under the best conditions available in the Transkei , and also taking on a period of work on the mines. I quote again : Mrs. G.P. Hart of Rhodes University points out that in 1960 the total income from all forms of subsistence in the homelands was R40-10 , while the migrant labourer sent R44-40 home. The total , therefore , was R84-10 for a family. (Interjections) Where is the confidence there? Now I will touch on the Transkei Civil Service . You find that in the top management figures are nil for Transkeian citizens . How many Transkei citizens or understudies are sitting just behind you ?
then named " segregation" . Again it was rebaptized and renamed with this name of " separate development " . There is yet another name they call it "separate freedoms " . THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, with all due respect , I wish to draw the attention of this House that members should stick to the motion before the House . Now, it would appear that the members across the floor are challenging the establishment of this House which was established in 1963. The motion before the House is that of no confidence in the Government on matters falling within their purview . Now, I want to draw the attention of the House to rule 35. Mr. Chairman , I do not think here we have come to discuss the question of whether the policy that the Government follows it should be allowed to follow. The question is the administration of the Transkei under the present Government should be challenged. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : In its policy . This regulation THE CHIEF MINISTER: reads as follows : "A member shall restrict his observations to the subject under discussion and shall not introduce matters irrelevant to that subject. " In the last two days we have been listening to a lot of irrelevancy coming from the members of the Opposition and I submit that you must draw the hon . members across the floor to the question of matters which are under the control of the Government of the Transkei. MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am sorry that in fact the small gun who kicked the Government case was going to soar higher than the highest above . To my dismay he kicked rock -bottom. I have to make analogies . THE CHIEF MINISTER : to order all the time .
I will bring you
MR. MGUDLWA : Yes , if you wish to waste important time irrelevantly. I will refer to a request that was made by the hon. member for Xalanga when he requested the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that he must say something about the recent bye -elections. I have no confidence in this Government. What a naive way of approach by an hon. member . Do you know that we on this side of the House are statesmen? We are not bigoted , opportunistic politicians , as is the case with the Government members . Do you know the difference between a statesman and a bigoted politician? A bigoted , opportunistic politician thinks about the next or the recent general election (Laughter) but a statesman things about the next generation. I will just by the way , to please you, make a few remarks about the recent bye - elections to show that the electorate has no confidence in the Government of the Transkei . Despite the hazardous odds that were made by the Government against one of the candidates from Qaukeni , the people of their own elected the son of Langa and they said they found no fault with him . We will not allow ourselves to be led , they said but they used their correct votes when they
36 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : the civil service?
Villiers Graaff refers . It does not come to tuppence . We are now proud in the Transkei because at least we have a country to boast of. We have accpted the policy of separate development because here it is now. We claim the Transkei as our fatherland and indeed it is . Listen to a better politician than de Villiers Graaff - the honourable the Prime Minister of He says : "National unity can the Republic. only be built on the recognition of equal language rights , and I call upon you to have regard and respect for one another's rights and to demonstrate it in practice . " Isn't that sincerity unAre we not in the challenged , gentlemen? Transkei for the first time enjoying our language . Xhosa, as an official language ? Isn't that right? You must not come into this House with puerile We have to consider things that are ideas. You can bluff some of the people important. some of the time , but you cannot bluff all the people all the time . This has been evinced by what happened in the bye - election in Umtata Because you are double - dealers , district . when you go to the Transkei people you say you are for chieftainship , hence a poor Chief Mtirara was brought into the fore -ground by you and actually the last speaker said : Here is a son of a chief belonging to the royal blood , please put him in. But the people of Umtata district could not be deceived by that. They know who of their chiefs are pro-Government and who are against the Government . It is all right for a chief on a multi - racial side to sit next to the kraal - side and enjoy his beer there and not come to create confusion in this House . We are on a nation- building programme here and we want the people of these territories to be proud of their national identity . (InterjecThe hon. the Leader of the Opposition tions) has cast a slur on this side of the House by asking us whether we are communists or not. I was surprised when he asked this question because he is such a leader. I will put it this way: He either wittingly or unwittingly is creating a very good seedbed for communism in I want to refer to one of the South Africa.
Why did you leave
MR. MGUDLWA : It was not a good occupation. (Laughter) There are no understudies in the Secretariat. How many principal clerks among the Transkein citizens are there ? You can count them on the fingers of my one hand . How many of the senior clerks are there who should be promoted to these higher posts , because they have talent? I do not see why these senior civil servants should not be promoted and taken on merit. The reason is not far to seek. Some of them in this quaint sextet are unqualified . If from the highest there is something that is incorrect.... THE CHIEF qualification?
MINISTER :
What is your
MR. MGUDLWA: My qualification is Std. 6; J.C. , 1st grade ; P.H .; matriculation . I am not Senior Certificated but matriculated , issued by the J.M.B. Are you not satisfied? (Laughter ) MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to identify myself with the amendment from the Government side , that this House , and not only this House but the whole Transkei , has implicit confidence in this Government. I am not going to waste my time by referring to some of the statements that have been made by the last member who is best suited to be a performer in the circus . (Laughter) It is all right for some of us to come here to entertain the gallery after lunch. We are very much concerned with matters of state. I have always wondered why we in this House have ever allowed an opposition on a multi - racial ground which is positively outside the framework of the Constitution of the Transkei . I have just consoled myself by one answer and the answer is deep regret that at the present moment we have no legislation as is the case with the Republican Government which, when they found that the communists were very serious in South Africa, aiming at the overthrow of the Government, then there was legislation to ban them . I think the time is not far distant to have a piece of legislation to ban these multi-racialists across the floor , because all you are up to, hon. gentlemen, is to create chaos , confusion and turmoil in the Transkei . I want to refer you to today's paper and those of you who have some brians to analyse the political set-up will appreciate what is referred to here when they have to canvass what Sir de Villiers Graaff said and what Mr. Vorster said . Here is Sir de Villiers Graaff's last election message : " Our policy for national stability gives the guarantee to every South African that his country but what I am conwill be preserved intact " fining myself to is the second paragraph of his electioneering campaign: "It will not be broken up into a series of small , inadequately governed states , but will remain forever under the control of a single strong central parliament . " Who does not know that all the time Sir de Villiers Graaff was always against the creation of our homelands ? And you people on your multi-
figures he quoted and I want to show you how he is creating good soil for the breeding of He says that in 1967 139,000 communism . Africans left the Transkei under contract to seek work. All right , we are happy that 139,000 people were employed by the Republic , but now let us assume that of these 139,000 men , 39.000 were married men. Would he favour a situation whereby 39,000 wives would follow these people to the Western Province ? MR. K.M. GUZANA : Yes , I would , because I would not leave them to the hon. member from Mount Frere who might think they are widows . (Laughter) MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Now, here is a situation that is going to create a very good seedbed for communism . 39,000 wives go to the Western Province and they become victims to the hunger of the sexual maniacs of the Western Province , irrespective of race . How many cases of immorality have we read about in the papers ? Do you now want to take our daughters to the urban areas where they will Instead they will be not get employment?
racialism platform will not be included under the strong central parliament to which Sir de
37.
Of course , walking up and down the streets . the Devil always finds work for idle hands . These women are going to mix with the liberals , the communists and some of the people with your ideas . Is that not a step towards the creation of a classless society , a classless culture ? We can never support multi - racialism in South Africa . Our culture is different from that of the White man. Our customs and traditions are not the same. We would rather remain as African nationalists as we are and let the White nationalists remain as they are . The hon. member for Maluti talked of ethnic grouping . Well, the hon. member on the Government side has replied to a portion of what he said as regards ethnic grouping. I am going to give a reply to the latter portion. He boasts that he comes from Johannesburg in the Transvaal , and it has been very clear that indeed he comes from the compounds. He is the " induna" of Crown Mines , but I wonder if he has ever gone to the residential areas of the White people in Johannesburg ? I have been there and I am going to tell you what the set-up is on the Reef. There used to be old Sophiatown which was demolished and the people were sent to Meadowlands , and now all the immigrants - those people from outside who have come to be South Africans citizens - are settled in old Sophiatown . Parktown and Lower Houghton are predominanly Jewish ; Greenside , Landmeyer , Florida are English- speaking; Westdene , predominantly Mayfair , Roodepoort and Crosby are mainly Afrikaans - speaking. You come all the way here to preach confusion because you are ignorant of these matters . You come and cause confusion here . There is no ethnic grouping in the Transkei other than that it is the creation of the Almighty God. The Pondos will remain in their province of Pondoland , Eastern or Western ; the Gcalekas in their area; the Tembus in their area through the blessings and creation of God the Almighty. Where is ethnic grouping then within the Transkei ? People must not come and talk , talking nonsense . (Laughter ) Now, before I have to sit down, because I just wanted a few points explained , you have said a lot of tosh. If I was a member of the Opposition , after all the good speeches that have been given by the Government side members and if indeed I was honest to my hon. leader , I would say "Come, come , my mate , let us cross over" , because the Government side has given you a very good political analysis of what is happenYou have eyes but you ing in the Transkei . do not see; you have ears but you do not listen . But there is only one thing an African man believes in and here is the stick. All that is going to happen is what has happened recently in Engcobo when your very people whom you thought were following you assaulted you and told you you must go away because they could not see what you were doing for them . There was a meeting held at Engcobo just before parliament, and the people said they were sick and tired of you. ( Laughter) OPPOSITION MEMBER : lies .
you because of your trickery , chicanery and your aims which are to overthrow a very strong and solid government of the Transkei . I have no qualms about what I have said because the Transkeian people have proved their honesty and their confidence in the Government. In 1968 you were all nearly wiped out , and during these byeelections the people of the Transkei have proved what they have appreciated of the Government. Because you don't know politics , you ask what happened in Flagstaff. I will tell you what happened in Flagstaff. The people of the Transkei are solid behind chieftainship and that son of Langa is a direct descendant of the royal tree of Pondoland. ( Interjections) Because they know he is a strong supporter of the Paramount Chief and belongs to the royal family, the whole of Eastern Pondoland voted him back into power . In all fairness to him, he never said to those people that he stood for the DP; instead he said he stood for the TNIP and the ordinary rank and file does not understand independence and they voted him back. You must go there and preach multi- racialism in Eastern Pondoland and you will be assaulted . With these few words I strongly support the Government for the good work it has done for these territories. If you gentlemen do not appreciate what the Government has done , your dear wives understand what the Government has done . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I speak I want to show that side this picture in the paper. I think you see a gentleman standing in the picture who resembles Mr. Vorster , and the other figure is Tom Swartz . He is sitting on top of that thing on which you sit. It is by that means that he has been cheated. He has a big horn next to the mouth of the man standing up. As he sits there he says : "When in Rome we does as the Romans does. " That person there found himself Chairman of the Coloured Council after their elections when he had lost his seat because the Coloureds rejected what they were given. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Come to the point. This has nothing to do with the Coloureds. CHIEF MAJEKE : He is sitting there with his hands folded and he says : " I will do what I am asked to do . " ( Laughter ) I shall begin now with the election to which hon. members have made reference . They say that the numbers of the Opposition are decreasing , while their numbers are increasing. From the very onset, when this debate began, I have been telling them that a time will come when we will give the reason for that. Firstly, the election was not carried out in a correct manner. It is for that reason we do not have any confidence in the Government. The majority of the voters in the Transkei are illiterate . The officers who go out in connection with these elections are appointed by this Government and in appointing such people this Government chooses those people who it is known will make a mess of things there . In the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister about teachers he makes reference to teachers in the Qumbu area. The Government first satisfies itself that people who are pro-Government are appointed.
You are telling
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : I never tell lies . The people of the Transkei are going to assault 38 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER ; It is not the Government that appoints them. They are appointed by the magistrate of the district , if you don't know that.
not fair. They fear the introduction of symbols because they would rather encourage the illiterate Native to use an X mark. The hon. the Chief Minister visits our place . He was doing some work which I believe lowered his dignity in Qumbu area . He went in full force for the resuscitation of his people , but the Qumbu people could not understand what he was doing because as far as they are concerned this separate development has gone right into their veins and they do not know where they should apply it. It will not surprise me if one day they say even their own children in one and the same family should be kept apart. (Laughter) When he got up to Qumbu he counted the Hlubis , Halas and Mpondomises as tribes and he was looking up to that sub- chief who has recently been installed . It is for that reason that that sub-chief is now objecting. (Interjections ) He believed that that sub- chiefwas pro - Government and he believed , therefore , that the Mpondomises would follow suit. When the hon. the Chief Minister tried to divide the people , telling them that the Hlubis and the Halas were not Mpondomises , he introduced a spirit that died a long time ago in Qumbu. We have not that spirit of racialism in Qumbu.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Listen! I am going to tell you something which you will understand. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Don't deceive the people. You are telling lies . CHIEF MAJEKE : During the year , when the hon. the Chief Minister went to Qumbu area, he went there because he had challenged me in this very House , stating he would get at me . He then went, but as we feared he started having meetings which he alleged were for administrative purposes , but in those meetings he discussed politics in full. He went on attacking me but when he had to attend a meeting to be held at my place , he feared to come . Instead , he sent his brother to represent him. The hon. the Minister of Education and the ex- Minister of Roads and Works came . They were accompanied by two teachers from Tsolo. It was during school term. The meeting was held. There was some disturbance caused by the teachers on that day who went about handling the women. (Interjections) At length those teachers were sent away from there . Listen, because I am coming back to the election. This is what I heard personally. One of the teachers said the people of Qumbu were fools because in Tsolo they were going to be presiding officers and polling officers where they would make X marks against TNIP members for those who could not write . (Interjections ) What I am stating is the truth, and those teachers were appointed as presiding officers.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : lies?
CHIEF MAJEKE : I was present at those meetings and the people nearly fought. When he realised that the Mpondomises and the Hlubis were not supporting him he wrote a letter in his capacity as Chief Minister , writing this letter to the chief of the Qumbu area. Did you not write it? Here is the letter : " Inquiries : Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima . The Office of the Chief Minister , 2nd October , 1968. I find that Majeke and Jafta and others are telling a lot of lies in connection with me. If that be
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : May I ask a question? Never mind what those teachers said, but how could it happen?
the case, show your authority. Go round your location holding meetings with headmen and counsellors and (mark this word) they must fight against Majeke and the women be influenced to leave him to vote for one Siwahla and Ngilana . If you fail to do so he will say your subjects are his subjects . I try to assist you. Take your subjects away from Majeke . Your subjects should listen to you and must not listen to what Majeke says . " (Laughter) Listen to the sentence in the last paragraph : "That affair of Lower Tyira in connection with fencing - the fence that fences in the land . I have dealt with that matter . I advised the headman that that fence (Laughter) Then is going to be removed. " he attached his signature .
These teachers were CHIEF MAJEKE : appointed as presiding officers as well as polling officers . Now listen - in Qumbu and throughout the whole of the Transkei , teachers were appointed as presiddng as well as polling officers , but this is what happened in Qumbu - because these teachers were found going along with me they were changed two days after they were appointed and in their place Europeans were appointed and there were genuine results in Qumbu because voting was carried out properly. CHIEF I. MATIWANE : a point of order....
Mr. Chairman, on
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, he is wasting my time. It is not a point of order. • He is discussing. THE CHAIRMAN : member.
Why do you tell
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is wrong with that? This is what I want to CHIEF MAJEKE : bring to your notice . When you are a chief at a place like that , what can you do if he writes to you in his capacity as Chief Minister , when you are an ordinary chief and he convasses his followers as being the Chief Minister ?
Sit down, please, hon.
CHIEF MAJEKE :
Mr. Chairman, my time has been taken up. I am going to give a second example to indicate that the number which they are boasting is the correct one , in fact is not So. Another method should be invoked in the next elections because the present scheme is
MR . S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , did the hon. member not go to Pretoria in connection with this Constitution?
39.
that were independent the Xhosa people occupied the Ciskei and the Transkei. Th White people so feared the Black person when they met round the Fish River that there were wars called the Kaffir wars . There was never any multi - racialism when they met. On the contrary, the British imperialists , when they arrived, were so rude as to cause these wars . Their intention was to snatch away the land of the Bantu people . That is why the King of the Xhosa people , Hintsa , was killed like a dog Now , and a commoner in his own country. ever since we were overtrodden by these people we have never had any say amongst ourselves. They snatched away every right and every piece of land of ours , but the Black people consistently claimed that they should be returned their independence . However , because of their military power that was very futile. A gradual process was done towards attaining independence. That resulted in a toy that was granted to the Bantu people of the Transkei called the Bunga, but the Bantu people were not satisfied with that toy. He craved that he be granted independence , and these British people that arrived here were very wily. Their propaganda was to the effect that the Dutch person was a very cruel person.
My second question is : Was the letter you have just read addressed to you?
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, let me pass on. I am not going to worry myself about these puppies . We need the.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think , Mr. Chairman , that is an insult to the hon. member , to say he is a little dog, and I think he should withdraw that. THE CHAIRMAN : remark you made ?
Will you withdraw the
CHIEF MAJEKE : All right , I withdraw. We need a government to plan an unavoidable racial community, a government that will strive to make peace and harmony for all the racial groups irrespective of colour , so that all the citizens will be allowed and helped to contribute their best in the economic and political spheres . This Government refused to withdraw Proclamation R400 which was promulgated during 1960. I do not see the purpose of that Proclamation because it is not observed . I do not know why the police do not follow up the terms of that proclamation . When you look at the definitions , the interpretation of the word " meeting" is : "meeting, gathering or assembly at which more than ten Natives are present at any one time . " That means even if the women go to draw water , if they number more than ten they should be arrested . I say our people, the subjects , are gaoled and this present Government has done nothing to see that people are not so arrested . If anyone has forgotten his reference book, that person is locked up in gaol . THE CHIEF MINISTER : figures .
OPPOSITION MEMBER : You don't even know history. MR . NDZUMO: That spirit has always been persistent among the Bantu people , but when the Afrikaner people took over they gradually opened the door towards self- determination , a.s a result of which self-government was granted. From there the leaders of the Transkei came together and formed the present Constitution . Among those leaders were the leaders of the Opposition Party and their signatures are in the Constitution that was formulated . In 1963 there were general elections for the Transkei . Both sides wanted to hold the reins in this Assembly and under this Constitution. When the leader of the Government , the hon . the Chief Minister , came to power they turned about and said they had nothing to do with this present Constitution, hence they formed this present Opposition. They say they have no confidence in this Government. At the same time they claim that if they come to power they will use the same Constitution. They say they do not want the Transkei to be independent , and to be excluded from the Republic of South Africa , but the Transkeian were never part and parcel of the peoples of South Africa . These people maintain that they do not want independence for the Transkei . My suspicion is that they do want it, because they say we will not get independence because it will be controlled by the Republican Government. They say we may not attain independence because we may not have ambassadors to other countries . In other words , if anybody could clear their brains and make them believe that we will attain independence they will turn round and accept this Constitution. They criticize the Government because they say it is nationalist in attitude . What people cannot have nationalist tendencies in the whole globe ? In Great Britain is there any "apartheid" ? In Great Britain the Welsh people , the Irish and
Quote ! Give us the
Teachers and headmen CHIEF MAJEKE : - even that sub - chief had to run because he had no reference book. ( Laughter) One weekend the teachers were all locked up in gaol because they failed to produce reference books . That very man was present on that occasion. This Government has not taken any action to protect the interests of the man who goes out to work. In this regard the Government has not stipulated how much a person should be paid. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Should the Government of the Transkei employ people for the industries ? CHIEF MAJEKE : The people from the Transkei compose the labour force for the Republic . MR. S.K. NDZUMO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the amendment from the Government side . I have always been mystified in this House when we talk of multi- racialism. It would appear that some of us do not know the history of South Africa. Some individuals opposite fear independence. It is common cause that before the White people came here the Bantu people were independent , and independence was snatched away from the Bantu people by the White people . When the White people arrived here in South Africa, the Bantu people had their kings and
40.
from Qumbu has done this or done the other thing. What he has come here to do is to uplift his people , the Transkeian people . In fact, the very chief I may not mention, when he went to Pretoria, after signing this thing came back a chief. During the Bunga times he was one of the deputation sent to Dr. Verwoerd to go and kick against Bantu education . When he returned he came back preaching Bandu education . (Laughter) That is a very narrow-minded attitude for a leader. They create the impression that the reference book was initiated by the Transkei Government. Last session this House condmened this type of reference book , wanting identity cards . (Interjections ) At the same time they maintain that this Government is responsible for the ill- treatment of the Bantu people through reference books . This Government is also against the reference book as it is for the Bantu people . All the things that are being levelled against this Government by the Opposition are the things that are being perpetrated by the Republican Government. How they maintain they can reach Cape Town parliament , I don't know, because it is clear and an open matter that they will never do it unless over the dead bodies of the White people. I can assure them one thing , that now we shall attain independence through the brain , not by foolishness . That is why all the reasonable candidates that came in here crossed over to the Government. (Interjections) During 1963 they felt big when they were the only people who had educated individuals here , but the people saw through their chicanery and they are leaving them destitute of intellectuals , bar just one individual in the Opposition - the Leader of the Opposition - and I don't think there is any hope for the rest of them . In fact, I believe that this no- confidence debate is going to take a shorter time because there are no accusations levelled against the Government which have substance , hence there is no need for us to waste time belabouring points that have been repeated time and again since the beginning of this no- confidence debate . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
the Scots people are demanding self- realisation of their races . Are they wrong? Are the Negroes in America who demand self- realisation of their race wrong? I do not think so. In fact, I was surprised to learn when the governing body of the Transkei claims the original territory of the Transkei , they were not co- operative . On the contrary, they say we should be a province belonging to the Republican Government. They want the Transkei people to retrace the steps they have taken and go back to under- dog status . The Transkei people will never accept that. In fact, that is why , as it has been so repeatedly said , they will always lose all the seats that are being fought for in the Transkei . To my mind the criticism that should be levelled by the Opposition is how this parliament should be run according to this Constitution. Before we attained this self-government we were the football of the White people . It was common knowledge, and common cause too , to see every Black man walking about the streets and being kicked by every Tom, Dick and Harry, but because , through the leader of the present Government we have attained this degree of self- independence , they have realised now that we are also a race to be respected . During the Bunga time here there was one , or perhaps two or three clerks in the whole building we are in now. MR .
K.M.
GUZANA :
That is not true .
MR. NDZUMO: Now the present interpreter who is before me now used to be a tea- boy after Having (Interjections) passing his matric. passed his matric he was not realised as a human being who could attain his self in a What has taken place now clerical position. is that we have attained this independence . All these public buildings are being managed by our boys .
MR. GUZANA:
Are these boys ? (Laughter)
MR. NDZUMO: There are graders that are being operated by our boys ; there are police stations that are being headed by the Bantu police ; there are magistrates that are Black in the Transkei now. During that time that was a dream . Does the Opposition Party think we will retrace our steps and want that trodden attitude by the White people ?
THE CHEIF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , seeing we have only 20 minutes left , I move the adjournment of the House .
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned .
MR. GUZANA : But separate development means going back to tribalism .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 22nd April , 1970.
MR. NDZUMO : Could anyone ever imagine that a gaol could be managed entirely by a Black staff? As a result of our endeavours to attain independence we have attained this degree of maturity, and the policy of the alternative party is just dilly- dallying in order to show that they have no confidence in this Government. There are certain individuals on the Opposition side who are very personal when they criticize the Government. We are here in this Assembly on a national basis , not on an individual basis . Certain of the chiefs here seem to have come here to this House in order to eulogize themselves . This Assembly has not come here to see that a certain chief
WEDNESDAY , 22nd APRIL , 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed . MR . B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I associate myself with the motion by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the 41 .
effect that this House has no confidence in the We on this side of the House Government. were amazed to find that the reply to the remarks by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was not made by the hon. the Chief Minister , but by the hon. the Minister of Justice . We are under the impression that it was because an attack had been made upon him and he thought he should revenge himself. However , after a while I was able to realise the reason for all this . I think the hon. the Chief Minister was not sure of himself and felt that if he made any statement it might not be approved of by his chiefs in the Republican Government. In support of this he made mention that he was going to apply for certain towns in the Transkei but in the newspaper he denied having made such a statement. The hon. the Chief Minister, as he is also responsible for finance , has neglected that aspect, in particular the economic developHe has shifted that ment of the Transkei.
you say is failing, what would you do with the Republic? MR. MNYANI : If we were in the shoes of the Government and had consulted with the Republican Government, and the Republican Government had refused to accept our request , we would return to you and tell you so and not keep beating about the bush. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . The hon. members down there must keep quiet. MR. MNYANI : The present Government did not see to the needs of the people who are starving. People go up and down starving , unclothed and having no employment. At the same time the Government boasts that teachers have been given an increment , clerks have been given an increment, and also we members of the House have been given an increment. On that side of the House they are interested in history, but they forget that during the early 1930s the late General Hertzog saw to the needs of those who were in want. This is what was stated by the Secretary for Finance during the installation in Qamata of Chief Mtet'uvumile : "The greatest task facing the Transkeian leaders was to fight poverty." In the Daily Dispatch there is a report that the hon. the Chief Minister stated that the people of the Transkei are not starving. The report is contained in the Daily Dispatch of the 23rd Febrary , 1970. During this scarcity of rain people have not all had the opportunity of finding employment. The magistrates were allowed to employ a certain number of people in relief work. People who are paid old age pensions were not employed. I do not see the reason why the Government should refuse that those people who are recipients of old age pensions should not be paid monthly. By allowing them to be paid R5 monthly the Government admits that that is the least amount which should be paid to those people and those who are receipients of the old age pension should be paid similarly. This side of the House has no confidence in the Government. There was a certain motion which sought that people should be allowed stalls at which to sell their produce at the market , and also at the Jubilee Hall. That was accepted . The reason why that motion was unanimously accepted was because it was realised under what circumstances the women who were carrying on that trade were working. Those people were ill-treated by the cruel police . A person who is a policeman is a cruel person. (Interjections ) The police will never give me any protection. I have not done wrong against anyone . People are doing this sort of work, not because they do not want employment, but because there is no employment for them . These women cannot work under contract. They have children, and others have illegitimate children by members of this House . (Laughter)
responsibility to the XDC , which body is not Even the attempts under his supervision. which were made in connection with the deboning factory and Vulindlela Factory have been handed over to the XDC , while at the same time you will find people going up and down the streets of the Transkei without employment. We on this side have no confidence whatsoever in the Government, because the Government has failed utterly to do anything in connection with influx control. We have been told repeatedly during the last six years that this matter is receiving the attention of the Government, but nothing substantial has been placed before us . To show they are just sitting down and doing nothing, some other new legislation in the meantime has been added to this influx control law. There is the introduction of the system whereby when one has been out in the labour centres for a period of ten months , he is required to come home again in order that he This has may again pay the amount of R1 . caused the labourers to have a complaint in this respect, that they are required to come home in order to pay this R1 and then return to Their complaint is simply this : Why work. are they not allowed to have the amount remitted instead? How can a government that can recruit people at the rate of R1 per person be able to A remark was bring contracts to an end? made that I was given in increment, but I think I would rather do without it than have people made to pay this R1 . To show that these people are merely cheating us , they say they are negotiating with the Republican Government because the Government is now prepared to abolish section 10. This section 10 allows people to remain at the labour centres if they have worked continuously for a period of fifteen years. Doctors and attorneys who are stationed in those cities are threatened because it is stated that they should return to their homeCan you believe that this Government lands . can hold negotiations with the Republican Government? ( Interjections) It is further stated that people who are doing some clerical work and typing there are being told they must return to the Transkei . ( Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : You must withdraw that remark , hon. member. MR. MNYANI : I withdraw , Mr. Chairman. To show we are surprised at the remarks made by the hon. the Chief Minister in stating that the people of the Transkei are not starving, the honourable the Commissioner - General stated that the people of the Transkei are starving. On one occasion when we were at his
MR. A. XELO : Supposing you were in the position of the hon. the Chief Minister, who 42 .
residence and were eating meat , the Commissioner-General told us that though we were filling up our stomachs we should tell the people he was in sympathy with them , but the hon. the Chief Minister denies that they are starving. Again, the Commissioner - General stated that T.B. is threatening the Transkei . T.B. walks Last year, in hand in hand with starvation. this very House there was a motion to the effect that there should be certain centres even in the rural locations for the sale of milk. Though this motion was agreed to , this Government has taken no steps . It is quite evident that in South Africa there is plenty of milk. In the Farmers ' Weekly of the 23rd April , 1969 , it is stated that surplus milk which has not been consumed is converted for industrial use . This Government has not made any attempt that such surplus milk should be brought to the Transkei .
outbreak, but if people have not fenced those people should die. Again, women were used to work on the roads and dams. These women were forced to accept fencing while their husbands were away at work. CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a pity that I have to stand up This hon. after such a short- statured man. member says the police are cruel , but the first thing anyone does when his house is broken into This makes me is to run for a policeman. think he does not live in a house but in a hole. I will pass on, but it is a pity that when I look round I see the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is not in the House . In the first instance , whenever there is a report of a death in any house , that person's colleagues go to the family to condole . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has suffered a certain loss . (Laughter) The Opposition has been hit and I condole with them . The discussion in which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was engaged for more than three hours made me close my ears and not listen. I then thought of a silly little boy such as the last speaker who would enter a house and kick an empty bucket to frighten everyone in the House , because an empty bucket makes the most noise . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition spoke thus and caused such a commotion by throwing some allegations against the members of the Cabinet, and he was only interested in the members of the Cabinet and laying allegations against the hon. the Minister of Justice . Thus he played this merry-go- round of his , talking about one member of this House , and this was without substance to the motion that there is no confidence in this Government. He cannot even now tell us when we ask him if he is put into power what he can do for the people. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is a well educated man , but he did not speak the truth in everything .
But you are a THE CHIEF MINISTER : farmer. Where is your milk? MR. MNYANI : The milk I produce is only sufficient for my own domestic use . This Government had advised that our stock should be reduced.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : that?
Where do you get
MR. MNYANI : I will therefore have no milk for my own use because the Government says we cannot have bulls . THE CHIEF MINISTER : You can buy them .
That is not true .
MR. MNYANI : This Government wants to introduce artificial insemination. Again, the Government is against a farmers ' organisation here in Umtata , but I am not dealing with them at present. What is most hurtful is that when there was a drought the Government seems to have been pleased. When people want a windmill in their locality the Government tells them they should first accept rehabilitation or fencing.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Just a question , please , May I have from the hon. Mr. Chairman. member for Umzimkulu on what matters I did not speak the truth ?
MR. N.L. MADUBELA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I would like to ask only two questions from the hon. gentleman across the floor. MR. MNYANI : point of order.
CHIEF JOZANA : You have disturbed me . I was coming to that. You spoke more about preaching all over the shop the fact that this House has no confidence in this Government. In that you were not speaking the truth.
Mr. Chairman, that is not a
MR. GUZANA : Well , when I say I have no confidence in the Government, am I not speaking the truth ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Ask your questions . What exactly have you MR. MADUBELA : yourself done for the people who elected you two years ago here in Umtata . Didn't you discourage the issue of title deeds to site- owners in Umtata? (Interjections )
has
But now the Opposition CHIEF JOZANA : seen there is no truth in what you say
because the Opposition has dwindled . I thought I would not have much to say about you, but now I will speak about you . You want the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland to be overthrown.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , the hon. member is still thinking about the election campaign. (Laughter) If people make applications for boreholes they are just told to fence their areas . We realise that last year there was an outbreak of typhoid and there is nothing to stop another
MR. GUZANA : the truth.
Now you are not speaking
CHIEF JOZANA : You have spoilt your whole business because this chief was very well trusted .
43.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : to be Chairman? (Laughter)
In this whole organisation that you have set up, your members have dwindled and this has led to the downfall of your party. I will now talk about the hon. member for Matatiele , the member who attacked the Department of Roads and Works . It was evident that he did not even stay in Mount Fletcher while resident in that area. He has forgotten the fact that the Department of Roads is a department which has been worthy of praise throughout the Transkei . He has forgotten that the roads in the Transkei have been in a very bad state . People who are going to hear what he has alleged in here will not vote for him again because some people now own buses , cars and every type of vehicle . Inspectors of schools now use cars to visit the schools. There is not one school that is not visited by a person travelling in a car. The roads leading to the chiefs ' places have been reconditioned . Why is it that he is criticizing what this Government is doing now? If one looks at the beauty of the school one would wonder where this hon. member stays. He must forget what he had in mind because he was dreaming. He was dreaming about
Do you still want
CHIEF JOZANA: I am not like you on that side , and I appeal to you hon. chiefs that you must be aware of the fact that the people have seen what is going on and you will be left alone on the opposition side. If you look at the hon. members like the hon. Mr. Majija, are they fit people to go about preaching to the people ? (Laughter) MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : here.
Yes , that is why I am
CHIEF JOZANA : People of today have intelligence . We can forget about the people at home. They cannot be cheated by fools like that. With all my strength I declare that this House has confidence in the Government. MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have listened carefully to what has been delivered by hon. members on both sides. It would appear that a person who stands up to speak will not finish his speech without making remarks about certain people. I will try not to follow suit but circumstances will force me to do so (Laughter) because a person generally eulogizes . I will even go so far as to make remarks about certain great people who have earned respect in their homes and in the country, and I will even go further to say something about the Republic. If I do so, please forgive me. I may not do so intentionally , but circumstances may force me to do so. I will first say something about the motion in hand. The motion states that there is no confidence in this Government. The person who says this Government is trustworthy is merely wasting his time. If it is stated that this Government is no good, be sure that that government has some incurable warts and we will try to give a remedy to clear these . How can we have trust in this Government which has no confidence in itself? - a Government that creates certain laws but at the same time the Republican Government promulgates laws to govern this country and yet this Government tries to sidestep the issue . Let me retrace and go back to where I started . There was a general election in the Transkei in connection with the present members of this House . In Tsomo there were six people who
Jabulani in Johannesburg. A lot has been said to the effect that this Government is only a dummy. I will now come to zoning. Mr. Chairman, I would MR. G.G. KUTU: like to put a question to the speaker. Is it correct that the TNIP says you speak quite (Laughter) a lot and you think very little ? CHIEF JOZANA : Iwill not reply to a question from a man who comes from the bottle - store. I am talking of zoning. It was alleged that all the towns will never be zoned, but this GovernAs I say , ment has put that into practice. some of you were in the hotel having meat and advocating that there would never be any zoning. What a disgrace to hear people like you advocating that Umzimkulu would never be zoned , whereas even before the zoning people owned property in Umzimkulu. We told them boldly at Umzimkulu that the town would be zoned. Even the little bit of land we have left over for them we will take in future . It is just in zoning matters that we put down your hopes when you said zoning would never be put into practice . I will return to the hon. member from Qumbu, Chief Majeke . He is a most untruthful man and we were together in Pretoria. We drew the Constitution now existing in his presence . I was a chief and he was a headman. (Laughter) The Republican Government favoured us by giving us the government we have today. I do not know what position you expected to hold in this Assembly which caused you to join that party. Did you want to be Chief Minister ? (Laughter) It is a pity that not all the members with whom I drew this present Constitution have Icrossed over to this side . I am referring now to the veterans in this House . May I sound a word of advice to my hon. chiefs , Chief Majeke , Chief Tutor and the other chiefs , that if a child goes back home and asks for forgiveness he will always be forgiven. Chiefs , this is a word of advice now. You must be aware that you are
supported the Government and those people wanted to come in here , but that could not be achieved because only one person was required . It was evident that these people should go to the people of the district to convene meetings and they asked the people at those meetings who they preferred . If I am not mistaken the meetings that were held were more than eight. During all those more than eight meetings , there was not one document from the magistrate stating they were allowed to hold meetings . In that regard they disregarded the law which states that no group of people in excess of ten should hold a meeting. Were they correct , Mr. Chairman? Were they not trying to overturn their Government, the Government which today is being criticized? Will it not be correct when this Government tries to stick to the regulations ? Again, Mr. Chairman, we must not be tired of
going to be left alone on this opposition side because your people are crossing over. If ever you wish to cross over we will be pleased to see you .
44.
talking with one another. We are not fighting, we are trying to correct the Government we have . Look at the people in the Tsomo district struggling and labouring hard under the control of the Department of Agriculture . I am not prepared to go and point out mistakes of this Government to show that all these departments have faults , because I am an old man and have reached the stage where respect is necessary. In the area from which I come, no person may speak in a meeting even if that quarterly meeting has been convened, except a person who is a headman. In my area, which is Tsomo , there is some ill-feeling caused by the fact that where a location has been rehabilitated or fenced anyone coming from an unrehabilitated location is not allowed to have stock grazing in a rehabilitated location. Those people who have their location unfenced are prohibited from taking their stock If you ask the people into the fenced area.
goes to show that the Government we have in the Transkei lacks respect. If the name " Mtirara " has been issued from the Great Place at Sitebe , saying people should vote for Mtirara , even if I went up and said: Don't vote for that Mtirara , vote for me instead; I would never do such a thing out of respect for the chiefs . Would you rejoice if you bumped against a paramount chief? I have already asked pardon if I touch the feelings of any individual . In my mind I have a vision that because we have this parliament we have thrown away our heritage as Bantu. We have heard the honourable the Commissioner - General telling us about those who have received education through this Government, and matters which have been performed by this Government to assist the Black people .
what they are doing when they have been taken out of the land of Egypt, and now they wish to return to Egypt , they will tell you it is because in the fenced area the devil dwells . That has been brought to the notice of the people in Tsomo, but that matter has not been attended to.
MR . MNYILA: But this Government has forgotten the rank and file , the people who gave birth to us , the people who elected us . Machinery is being introduced for those who have attained high education, forgetting those at the back suffering from starvation. Why does this Government not uplift both these sections ? Why do you close the door to those people instead of giving them the opportunity to earn a liveliLook at the drought in this country. hood? The country has forgotten the rank and file but we have chiefs who are paid , and because they sit down here they receive payment . Let me give a pinch to those who are in authority who may feel the pinch , to show that the Government of the Transkei has lost all human feelings . Even this Government has acually lost their very bodies . We have heard the honourable the Commissioner - General who has been given to us by the Republican Government. I am sure that as I give you my opinion , one or two others may also share my opinion. We have the paramount chiefs here who are respected by all Black people . These paramount chiefs usually install the chiefs who have to rule over a different location. Look , today there is this official who is known as CommissionerGeneral , who goes to install the chiefs . Where are your paramount chiefs ? You as a Government must rule over your own people . The Commissioner - General must be a link between you and the Republican Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Hear , hear.
MR. S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman , I have a question to ask. In Tsomo where you have accepted this, have you put up fences ? You have been in this House for six years and by now you should have put up fences. MR. MNYILA: This is my reply. There are more fenced locations in Tsomo district than You are wasting my time , because unfenced. I have a lot to say in this House . (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
MR. MNYILA : He could consult me outside the House where I will advise him . We have a Transkei treasurer who is known as the Secretary for Finance and he enjoys the respect of a infant born yesterday . Even those who are old, you see them bowing the knee because he is the treasurer. He issued a circular to all the magistrates. That circular stated that all paramount chiefs, chiefs and headmen should not publicly interfere in politics , but he himself should know which side he chooses. It is not Two headmen were so in the Tsomo area. written to and were told they should assist a candidate for the Government. One was sent to Cape Town and others to East London, Port Elizabeth and other towns to the effect that they should go and canvass for a TNIP candidate and forget about the man now standing . The person who was standing was not worried about that because he knew he was going to consult his own people . Look, those headmen who went away to Cape Town - are they not fighting against the instructions of the Secretary One man came to me , saying for Finance? his chief was assaulting him. Remember that headmen there are known as chiefs . I personally made a request about this and it was accepted. I will always give due respect at all times . However, I will say something about that at a later stage . It is not surprising that a paramount chief should be subdued by an ordinary commoner and you should be pleased to hear that . That
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , in terms of the rules of the House the name of the Commissioner -General may not be brought into the debates of the House. I will call upon the hon. member to withdraw his remarks. Before I withdraw , Mr. MR. MNYILA: Chairman, I do not read a lot out of these books which you read. I am going to withdraw , Mr. Chairman. I hope the Commissioner- General will not be hurt by what I have said. I had already, before starting to speak, asked this House to forgive me if I hurt anyone. I withdraw the remark in connection with the CommissionerGeneral , but I must not forget what I have been saying. I must refer to the Black membership of this House . We must not leave our customs . Money should not come first. 45.
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the amendment before the House . We on this side have confidence in the Government. You members of the Opposition are just people to be laughed at by the people , because multiracialism is something which can never happen in the Transkei . One of the speakers across the floor said most of the people ofthe Transkei are not educated. I agree with those remarks , but what will those people who are in the majority say about the Transkei ? What do they say about multi-racialism in the Transkei ? It is something they do not know of because it is only known by very few of you here . More especially you have been brought to the Assembly by very vew people who support your side . Let me say this , before the state of emergency was declared in Lesotho I paid a short visit there and I discovered that the Moshesh people in Basutoland who enjoyed respect are no longer there today . What is the reason? You will find that Indians marry the Bantu people . What then is going to happen to Moshesh's people ? There will be none left at all. I want to refer to certain remarks made on the Opposition side. One of the speakers made mention of women who are arrested for selling food near the Jubilee Hall. When anyone goes past there he looks at the produce and feels he cannot buy anything . The place is dirty and even the sellers are not clean. Is that not one of the causes of T.B. ? The speaker went on to say they have no confidence in this Government because people who were in employment are being paid very small wages. I am referring to the people employed on relief work. What would those people say in reply if you went to them and told them to discontinue working, because they are starving? Even if you are like Oliver Twist , but whenever he wanted more he had something in hand. I want to refer to the remarks made by one speaker from across the floor. If people object to their areas being rehabilitated and want cattle removed from the unrehabilitated areas to those which have been rehabilitated , you have referred to rehabilitated areas as places where the devil dwells , so is it reasonable for someone to go from heaven to the place where the devil dwells? Please do not interfere with the people who have accepted rehabilitation and they in turn will not interfere with you where you feel you are comfortable. Let me refer to the question of the Sotho language which was mentioned by the hon. member from Maluti. There is nothing wrong with the present Sotho terminology. Ican say so with full confidence because I am a Basuto. The point is that the Sotho language was first recorded by the French in Lesotho and that position was acceptable at the time . It was only the question of spelling, as I am going to indicate . In those former days "yena " , which means " him " , was spelt " eena " . Today it is spelt "yena ". That same spelling applies in the Xhosa language . "Ihashi " was not spelt as it is today. Here is another word "wena" in the old orthography was spelt "uena " and today it is " wena " , and even in the Xhosa language it is spelt the same way . I want to stress the point that there is nothing to show that there is no confidence in this Government. This arrangement is a well accepted one in order to enable our children
to study it in order to get their degrees . We therefore have confidence in this Government and we shall continue to enjoy this confidence from 1973 onwards . Let us accept what we have been given by the Republican Government – that is, our present self-government, because we all realise that we have no place in the Republic. Today we see people coming from as far away as Johannesburg and Cape Town to carry on business in the Transkei . You on the Opposition side are in the minority, therefore let us have confidence in our present Government.
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly
adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the motion by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, and I wish to make some remarks in this connection. Firstly, we were given a policy by the Nationalists and we have got a good blanket, and because this blanket belonged to a great man and was given to a little boy it was so big that it swept the ground. Clothing that is befitting an elderly person looks awkward when worn by a little baby. Because this policy comes from a hardhearted Republican Government and because that Government wanted this policy to be given also to a hard-hearted person, as a result the hon. the Chief Minister is similar in his actions to the Son of God who, when God wanted a person to go and relieve sin on earth his Son said he would go. Similarly, the hon. the Chief Minister said he would accept his cloak. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. MAJIJA : But the difference is that the hon. the Chief Minister has not accepted this condition in order to save people but, on the other hand, to put pressure upon the people . The first Nongqause was brought to the people bythe daughter of Mhlakaza; the second Nongqause has been brought by the present Chief Minister . First of all , let us investigate the people who have given us this policy and find out what they were at the beginning. When they first arrived in this country there was only one man amongst them who had brought his wife . Others had no wives and they found them in this country, and there was inter-marriage . The people who resided around Cape Town were the Hottentots and the Bushmen. When the English arrived in this country they found that these people had lost their language , Dutch , and a new language which was a mixture of a language used by the Hottentots and their own language was formulated . As they stayed with the Hottentots they lost the prestige which they had in Holland , hence Ordinance 50 which classes them with the Hottentots . It is those people who have given us this policy. Today they say they love us and want us to have our own self-government according to our nationality - the Zulus to have
-
46 .
Much has been said about MR. MAJIJA : the goodness of the XDC by that side , stating that the XDC made these achievements which they claim to be good. We see that the XDC is a crocodile - a crocodile which has snatched the rights of the Black people and taken those rights to the Republic. These people who have been given these shops to look after are receiving ill -treatment. It has happened that whilst one man is being ejected from one store , another man is introduced at the same time into that store. Secondly, these managers are only paid R60 a month.
their own self-government and the Xhosas to have their own, and that we should have our separate parliaments, but in the Republic I have not heard it said there is an Englishstan, a Dutchstan , Frenchstan and a Germanstan. They have one common parliament. They live in one and the same town. They do not do with them what they do with us - namely, that when we are in these cities they tell us to go and live away from them. I want to tell you what was said by a minister who taught other parsons at Stellenbosch. He is a Dutchman to whom God revealed that separate development was no good. It was never granted to people by God. We regard anything that has been said by a parson as being good, particularly if that parson is a Dutchman and belongs to the Nationalists. (Laughter) Again, in Holland there was a conference for parsons of Dutch descent where the late Dr. Verwoerd was born. In that
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Just tell us what you , as a government , would do. Tell us your policy.
us
MR. MAJIJA : Hand over the government to and we will show you what we will do .
(Interjections)
conference it was clearly stated that they did That not agree with separate development. statement was made where the late Dr. Verwoerd was born. All the more we become convinced when such statements are made by the Dutch people where the late Dr. Verwoerd was born, that separate development is no good at all , just as we consider it to be bad. The Dutch have never liked Black people and I am surprised that anyone should compare them with the English. When the Dutch were the rulers of this country they did not encourage a Black child to attend school , but the Black child could only attend church services . I will not now refer
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MAJIJA : His White counterpart is paid twice as much. How can such a person not be tempted to misappropriate the moneys which he handles ? You must pay a Black man in the Transkei so that he realises his salary will be equal to that of a White man. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come to the Transkei .
We have no shops .
MR. MAJIJA: You must persuade those XDC people to pay them properly and if they are not prepared to do so , tell them you will not allow your people to be employed by the XDC . It is your duty to see how the people in your state are cared for.
to other evils that have been committed by them , as I made reference to such last year. Anyone who wants to know what evils they committed should read last year's Hansard . With the arrival of the English, the English then introduced education. When the Dutch came to power in 1948 they decided that they should make the Black man fit in his own position and then Bantu education was introduced in order to stop the Black man from making any progress . Some regulation was then introduced whereby a teacher could be dismissed from school without his case being heard . There were many teachers who were fired from their positions. Before these Dutch people made these regulations , teachers would not be expelled from their posts without a hearing of their case . How ever much these members praise the Nationalists they will not be in a position to dispute what I am going to state.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : your servants?
How do you pay
MR. MAJIJA: Some people received information that these stores are being sold and such people usually leave the centres where they are and come to the Transkei to buy the stores. Though that particular indivudual has cash to "Oh, no, you purchase a store , he is told : are going to become a manager. " (Interjections ) I will give you an example . What I said has actually happened in Engcobo. Someone came from Cape Town where he had a store which he conducted , and where he had made a lot of money. He wanted to buy Emjanyana store which was for sale . (Interjections ) You are living in Qamata so you are not in a poisition to know what has happened. He was told he was not allowed to purchase that store but must first be a manager, and he decided to return to where he came from .
Hon. member , are you THE CHAIRMAN : attacking the Government side in this motion, or are you just making up stories about the Dutch people ? I think you should direct your attack to the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
MR. MAJIJA: They have made certain allegations and I am now replying to them. During the time of the English, no incidents happened such as Sharpeville and Ngqusa Hill. We on this side say we have no confidence in this Government because the Government support our oppressors .
That is not true.
Because of your law our MR. MAJIJA : people who were in the cities of Cape Town and Johannesburg have been repatriated , and when they arrive in this country they do not get any employment in the Transkei , but only get a little money, insufficient for their needs , yet the hon. the Chief Minister stated that people who have not paid taxes would be arrested . (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are completely out of order .
47.
How can they get the money to pay taxes ? Because of such laws people go to labour centres under contract, and on arrival in these labour centres the clerks charge them fees . People pay quite a lot of fees to the clerks here at home before they even go to the labour centres and they are placed in that position by you. Please speak for the people. Last year we moved that people should be allowed to go to work and if they work in the labour centres they should not be compelled to return home . If the hon. the Chief Minister demands that such labourer should pay the sum of R1 he should do so by way of the post .
to a baboon which takes out of the throat of the baby anything that he is chewing . The baby wants to live while the mother does not worry whether it dies. At school we used the same songs which pointed out the oppression of the people and now it is up to us to work for the betterment of their lot. Here we have a Transkei government and it is up to us to come together and work for good conditions . The people at home have nothing to do with your policy of multi-racialism . All they want is to keep the Transkei as their own. It is you people of small minds who want other nations to come into the Transkei . Our children used to work in the Republic , but as it is now the towns in the Transkei have been zoned and there is room for development even here in Umtata . Even Umzimkulu town, which it was said we would never have , we have now got.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is paid by the employer, not by the employee . MR. MAJIJA : It is the employee who pays the fee. When you go to Johannesburg you travel by air, but we walk on foot.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am more in contact with the people than you are .
CHIEFTAINESS SIGCAU : I shall not deal at great length with the matter of the reshuffle in the Cabinet. Any wise farmer practises crop rotation . The harships suffered by our people at labour centres are receiving the attention of the Government. If you are poor and have nothing you have to humble yourself. While we have no factories it is only right and proper that we should go and beg from the When you have nothing you must Republic . humble yourself until you receive what you want. That is the method of the Government, because we have no weapons or means of defence . I will just pass lightly over what was said by the Opposition member from Qumbu. He states that a certain resident of the location visited me and this person said he was very sorry he supported the candidates in Qumbu. At the time I was busy with my report back. He further said he would go and apoligise to the candidates and that he would never again go to the Qumbu district. Another person said when General Hertzog was in power he saw to it that every Afrikaner was placed in employment. Is there one child in the Transkei who is a matriculant and who has no job? In any state there should be provision for the higher positions , then the lower positions will be considered later. Even in regard to the threat to arrest tax defaulters , the idea is really that these people should go and report their circumstances to the magistrate so that it can be decided what to do with them . Anybody who listened to the speaker who opened the Assembly will remember that he mentioned there were no disturbances or disorder in the Transkei . Let us therefore think deeply about the Transkei and our children , and consider what we should do . We must not make ourselves a laughing- stock of other people . We are hoping to have ambassadors in order that there should be smooth administration of the country . With those words I am trying to say that our Government has the confidence of the people. You say that people have no confidence in the Government, but they have no confidence in you, the minority. You should consider what is best to be done .
MR. MAJIJA : We have not had a report of that motion we moved last year . When the hon. the Chief Minister visited Cape Town we had hopes that on his return he would tell us that people are free now to go to the labour centres , but now I do not entertain any hopes that he will give us anything tangible because even the hon. the Minister of the Interior went to the Rand and on their return they brought iron and Instead of finding fencing wire. (Laughter) employment for the people they brought fences in order to fence in the people and have them locked up in the Transkei because they are obsessed with the Transkei . They do not want to hear anything about other countries . CHIEFTAINESS N.A. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the amendment by the hon. the Chief Minister to the effect that we have full confidence in the Transkei Government. It is a pity that the hon. members of the Opposition should lay allegations against the present Government. It is also to be regretted that it has been said we have been given this policy by the Republican Government The to oppress the people of the Transkei. Transkei Constitution was discussed during the TTA times before it was submitted for approval . Even the regulations made it quite clear that the Chief Minister should be elected by the people . There we have the Chief Minister whom we elected and who would guide us under the regulations of the Republic . It is now seven years that he has been in power and there has been nothing amiss in the administration. The responsibility of the Government is your own responsibility across the floor. After we had been given self-government it would have been proper for all of us to come together to see what good we could do for the Transkei . If you are given a kraal site , you don't expect him to come and prepare the ground for you and to remove the stones . You yourself should do it. Similarly, we should come together and see that we get something for the benefit of the Transkeian citizens . Our aim is to work for the betterment of the lot of the Transkei people . We liken you
MR. H. MAFUKULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to associate myself with the
48.
confidence in the Government? Again , these people met a certain agricultural officer and they requested that their fence should have eight strands . At my place only six strands of wire are used for fencing - three of plain wire and three of barbed wire . That is not an efficient fence . These people are close to the town of Ngqeleni and the VMB has fenced in this manner. The VMB fence is constructed
motion moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, namely , that we have no confidence in the Government. Firstly, I must say I do not intend replying to anything said by the hon. member who has just sat down. I must testify to what has been repeatedly said by the Opposition - that all the truthful things said by this side have been disputed by the Government side . Before I go deeply into what I am going to say, I will ask the hon. the Chief Minister to listen carefully . If he has left the House , those who work with him will pass on what I am going to say . In the Ngqeleni district where I reside , it is an old complaint in connection with the survey of land . In other words they say it is re-settlement. I was called by some of the residents of a location to listen to their comWhen their location was planned , a plaint. committee was convened and also the person who was responsible for the resettlement and every portion of the location which had to be resettled was indicated . Arable sites were laid out in one area, grazing in another and residential allotments in another . A government officer said that a decision would definitely be arrived at but that did not come about. What happened before a decision was finally made was that an officer responsible for the resettlement came to the people and showed them a map and told them which were the areas made available for grazing, arable and residential plots. What the people wanted to know was why he did not come with a map before the decision was arrived at. He replied that he knew, and the people wanted to go to higher authority but they received no reply. They came to Umtata to
of eight strands and a jackal cannot get in there . The agricultural officer accepted their request, but instead of having the eight strands the fence has only six strands . Can the people not say, therefore , they have no confidence in this Government, because all the officers with whom they discuss these matters are sent out to them by the Government? Again, Sir , where surveys have been carried out, in some places no gates have been put up. In other places there are gates , and it is now said the people should put up their own gates . There is an old complaint where stock on the road is impounded. The Government says they have fenced in stock and that the stock goes out through the gate . but the stock gets through those three strands When this matter is brought of plain wire . to the attention of the agricultural officers the people are told in reply to make provision for themselves . Can we not therefore say we have no confidence in the Government? Again , Sir . stock dies in the location. (Interjections ) The hon. member says there are medicines , and I agree , but the people to encourage such matters are the Government. The reason why the stock dies in the location is lack of water . There are no dams in the locations . Last session application was made for windmills . If this side were in power I would see to it that a number of tractors should be sent out so that dams could be constructed , because the stock is dying. This Government has assisted the oppression that is felt by the people . As far as the White people are concerned , when there is an outbreak of a certain disease stock inspectors are sent out to go and assist the fight against the disease . If I were the Government I would do likewise . It is for that reason we say we have no confidence in the Government. Again , Sir, we meet another difficulty. Certain people have two wives , and I think that you, being a chief, know that . ( Laughter) As far as we can see , however , where we live the people are not given their due rights . When a man has two wives he pays tax for both his wives , but where a survey takes place you will find that the rights are only apportioned to one wife. We do not know who gets this right, but the agricultural officer says that there is no regulation to allow for the allocation of land to the second wife , and she should also belong to the great house , but the people in reply say the righthand wife is in accordance with Native custom and she should get her full rights . Those are matters which make us say we have no confidence in the Government. Again, Sir , there are other matters which cause ill - feeling. At the same location which I have mentioned there are certain areas which should be made available and the people have not as yet been removed . When these portions of land have been applied for , the agricultural officers should see to it. There is a certain agricultural officer with whom they
interview the officer dealing with lands , but they were not satisfied and the people were in a difficulty. They sent me to bring their Those are complaints here . (Interjections) matters which indicate there can be no confidence in this Government. Another matter in regard to the same matter of resettlement in another location , when the person responsible for planning comes, he does not give an opportunity to the people to discuss the matter or to lodge their complaints . That is another factor which causes us not to trust this Government. As this matter has been surveyed by this officer , there are some people who have not acquired Xhosa. When the people referred this matter to the authorities , they received no reply. As nothing is being done in these locations , some of the existing lands have been divided by fences . One portion of the land falls inside the fence and the other outside , and people are granted kraal sites to the extent of 70 x 70. That means that a kraal site is now no longer measuring 70 x 70. Again, those are such matters which cause us not to have any confidence in the Government. Now, certain people are given kraal • sites in damp areas . I actually inspected one area and there was a duck swimming there, and when the duck walked away water was found. ( Laughter ) There was a spring there . You will realise that people in these locations have not sufficient means to put up good foundations , and again these people approach the Government , but no- one cares for them . What is worse than when people spend money to come to this place and no -one takes any notice of them . Can the people not say they have no 49.
MR. DYARVANE : As a matter of fact , if I were to give an indictment against the Opposition, I would find them not guilty of levelling any accusations against this Government. As a matter of fact, I would liken them to an army that was carrying guns and stood in front of the guns , and the hon. the Chief Minister allowed them to shoot at the target. It looks as if they were carrying their guns on their shoulders , pointing backwards. They themselves are facing the target, the Transkei Government, and now they are allowed to fire and the bullets go to Cape Town and there is no mark on the target whatsoever. What is the result of that? You get them even quoting Professor Hoernle , Mrs. Hart and so on.
work and when these people approach this certain officer to be given these available allotments , he says : All right, give me some sweets . When he refers to sweets , he generally means that they bring a bribe . Those are other matters which make us not have any confidence in the Government. It sometimes happens that people are given sites by the magistrate without the knowledge of the headman of the location, because our people realise that everything is done by the magistrate and so they approach him in order that they may be given these kraal sites . The magistrate then refuses to take any hand in this argument after he had promised to give a certain site to a person. This action places the people in a dilemma so that they do not know whether to follow what the magistrate says or go to the agricultural officer. Those are matters which make us have no confidence in the If I were a member of the Government. Government, together with this side , there would be only one person who would have the rule of the location. Lastly, Sir, these people who have been employed by the XDC are still young.
MR. GUZANA : twelve months .
Confine yourself to the last
MR. DYARVANE : You find people going to what Professor Hoernle and others said, and all the time they are criticizing this Government. All those things they quoted happened in 1945 and 1948 , before the advent of this Government. I presume , and I think I am correct in the conclusion, that the hon. members are not quite serious in their no- confidence motion. You will note this from the fact that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned that it was because of the policy of this Government that God had withhled His rain from the Transkei. Now , could it be seriously said that God had withheld rain because he is dissatisfied with the That is why I Government of the Transkei ? say they are not serious .
THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to ask hon. members not to read newspapers in here . The hon. member down there is making too much noise. CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman , I wish to ask a question . Now that you have levelled these complaints from your location, have you ever approached your chief so that he should lead you to the right channels ? Have you come to expose the fact that you have no chief or paramount chief in your location?
MR. GUZANA : Because since 1964 we have had this aggravating drought which is getting worse and worse .
MR. MAFUKULA : I shall not reply to those remarks , Mr. Chairman.
MR. DYARVANE : If it is getting worse and worse , it should get worse and worse in Cape Town where this Constitution was formed . ( Interjections) It became an Act in Cape Town.
MR. M.E. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment by the hon. the Chief Minister .
MR. GUZANA : And you accepted it.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : The Chief Minister did not move an amendment .
MR. DYARVANE : How can you say the man who has accepted is more guilty than the man who has caused? So I want to say the Opposition is not serious in these criticisms . You must know there is a Chinese proverb which says : Who has choice has torture . The Government of the Transkei has the choice . It has to find a way to help its people.
It is really most em-MR. DYARVANE : barrassing that we have to listen to the same speeches dating from donkeys years ago , instead of confining ourselves to the no confidence debate within the last twelve months . We hear people remarking about this Government inheriting from the Republican Government. We have heard this time and time again before . It is my wish that the no- confidence motion should be confined to the activities of the Government within the period of the last twelve months , because it shows an unnecessary repetition of what has been siad in the criticisms Now, it is unnecessary to waste my before . strength and breath to any length or breadth in replying to the speeches of the Opposition because they are mostly, if not all , beside the They are not criticisms against this point. Government, they are criticisms against the Republican Government.
MR. GUZANA : It has a choice - it has to bear the torture . Quite right! It does try to bear its MR. DYARVANE : people on its back and it is most embarrassing and annoying to find people who say they have no confidence in this Government. I have listened to someone comparing this young Transkei Government with a mature Republican Government. They even wished the Africans to be in Apollo 13. They have not finished with the Transkei but they want to go all over the world and even into the moon, and that leads them to have no confedence in the Government of the Transkei . Do you take such people as being serious ? It has
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE: Aren't you representing the Republican Government on that side ? 50 .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
been said over and over again this week and last week that their numbers are gradually diminishing. The citizens of the Transkei are becoming more and more inclined to have more confidence in the Government of the Transkei . (Interjections ) Now, the Government is trying its best to make them see the light and just now the Opposition will find it is being deserted by the people . I do not want to go years back, but just want to refer to the remarks by the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Mr. Mafukula . He states that that side of the House has no confidence in this Government because it does not give more rights to people who have more wives . That means if a man with two wives gets more rights , then one with four wives will demand more , and then the man with one wife will be left with no land at all. If the hon. members on that side of the House have no confidence in the Government, why do they want to bring any requests and applications to the Government? I think they should not have turned up here because they have no confidence in the Government. ( Laughter) Now, Mr. Chairman , we get to the next point where the Opposition has jumped to the conclusion of having no confidence in the Government. The Opposition say they do not know why the Transkei Government has transferred its banking from one bank to another , but before they have known why, they pass a judgment of no confidence in the Government. Would it not have been proper for the Opposition to find out why, and then come to criticize what has been done ? (Interjections ) Now the Opposition say they have no confidence in the Government because it transfers its banking . MR. GUZANA : MR. DYARVANE : before .
MR. DYARVANE : We have had some figures quoted here of employment opportunities in the Republic compared with those in the Transkei . That comparison is improper. The Republic developed long before the existence of the Transkei Government. There are gold mines there , diamond mines , copper and coal. In the Transkei those things are yet to be developed , if ever . MR. GUZANA : Where is the gold? MR. DYARVANE : If ever, I said. Gold might still be found in the Transkei . No-one can just forecast the future . MR. GUZANA : Gold depends on the rock formation. Are you just going to find the proper rock formation in the Transkei? MR. DYARVANE : What surprised me about the criticisms of the Opposition was that they made no mention of increments in the old-age pensions . MR. GUZANA : the increment? MR. DYARVANE : ments .
You should have asked
MR. GUZANA: Give us the figures . MR. DYARVANE : The Opposition must tell the truth . There is no harm in telling the truth that they have confidence in the Government. That is why they are here to criticise the Government. If they have no confidence in this Government they would not even bother to criticize it. They are criticizing the Government because they have confidence in it. The Government is sensitive . (Laughter ) They are sensitive and they feel the criticisms . Therefore you have confidence in the Government, so it is no use standing up and saying you have no confidence in the Government. You are collecting all the stones of ages long gone by and hurling them against the Government. That does not help. You will miss the target, as you have done. As I have siad , we expect the Opposition to give advice to the Government in the proper manner to improve on what it has done.
MR. GUZANA : On what it has done. On what it should have
MR. GUZANA : And what they have done that is wrong. MR. DYARVANE : They should advise the Government what it should do. Now, that is a constructive opposition. MR . GUZANA : All right, will you transfer the banking account back to where it was. (Laughter) I am advising you now.
MR. GUZANA : We will give advice to the Government during the policy speeches , but at present we are criticizing .
MR. DYARVANE : Not before you know why it was transferred . Not after you have already passed judgment on the Government. So my
There have been incre-
MR. DYARVANE : There have been improvements in other spheres during the last twelve months . All that time the Opposition are not ashamed to say they have no confidence in the Government, because the Government has done nothing.
Yes, why did it do that?
MR. DYARVANE : Now, I don't think that is the proper way the Opposition should serve the people . I think the purpose of the Opposition is to criticize the Government on what....
MR. GUZANA : correct?
What is
MR. GUZANA : In the last twelve months what is the increment?
MR. GUZANA: We are asking now. Will you give the reason?
MR. DYARVANE : done .
There are none .
MR. DYARVANE : I have heard complaints about agricultural officers in certain isolated places , and the Opposition jumps to the conclusion
conclusions are
51 .
to Butterworth they tell the people this particular location will have its own secondary school , and that one will also have its own secondary school . Now we have found ourselves in this difficulty · that there was a secondary school site which had to be allocated to Pakati area , but now it is being established in Zazulwana location instead of Tanga , and the people do not understand how this came about in connection with the secondary site. There was a certain officer who had been instructed to go and see about these sites , but instead he proceeded to Tanga instead of to Zazulwana . At the same time there was a letter written to the department.
that they have no confidence in the Government. That means those agricultural officers are the government , according to the interpretation of agricultural officers . MR. GUZANA : How can I put you right ? The servants of the Government implement government policy . MR. DYARVANE : There is nothing to stop anyone from going to the department concerned with the activities of that officer , to find out if that officer had authority to do what he did. If he has been found to have overreached himself, then it is for the department itself to come and stand on it here in this House , because that man is only a servant of the Government, and the Government is trying its best to do the correct thing. The Government feels frustration if, after all those endeavours to do the correct thing, you find there are still people who still say they have no confidence . I believe the Opposition will have to adopt a fresh attitude now and confine their criticisms within the twelve months past. They have told us about the previous years .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : mental matter .
That is a depart-
CHIEF ZULU: And because of this disturbance the people in Butterworth do not now have confidence in this Government. MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, I have a question to ask. I would like to know if Tanga is not in Butterworth district, in the speaker's area.
MR. GUZANA : May I put a question to this hon. member? I wonder , since you speak on behalf of the Government, whether you can explain to us why a report of the Public Service Commission for the past year should have been the subject of an article in " Imvo" on the 11th April this year. Now, that is within the last twelve months .
CHIEF ZULU: As ex-Minister of Agriculture you ought to know that. Much has been said about the zoning of these towns . One portion of the town should be zoned for the Black and another for the Whites . An example has been given of Mr. Mayekiso in Butterworth, but when they went round to the people they told the people that if any Black man had means enough he could buy any store owned by a White person. I do not know whether the Government is aware of the fact that when a White storekeeper leaves his store it is only another White man who will take over that store . That happens in Butterworth and I think it happens in other towns. People are beginning to believe that this Government cannot speak the truth as a result.
MR. DYARVANE : You may find out from the officer concerned, and not here . So I request the Opposition please to be constructive ....
MR. GUZANA: Answer the question. MR . DYARVANE : ....and not to tell us that the people in the country have no confidence in this Government, whereas the people are drawing benefits which they never enjoyed before now, and those benefits are increasing daily.
CHIEF P. JOZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is a chief. Does he not know that zoning has been effected in Butterworth?
THE CHAIRMAN : Iwill ask the hon. members at the back of the hall please to keep silent.
CHIEF ZULU: I do not know why you say there should be zoning. I thought you said the White people should leave this country and that is one of the reasons why the people have no confidence in you, because you told them the Now people are White people were leaving. coming from the large centres and when they get home they find one storekeeper goes away , but instead another White person is given the chance to take over . Another thing which happens in Butterworth and other places is that this Government has allowed the establishment of Jabulani , and as a result of this Jabulani people have died. I do not know why the Government allows it. (Interjections )
CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the motion to the effect that there is no confidence in the Government of the Transkei . The last speaker has explained how this Government is not trusted. After we had heard that this policy was obtained from Pretoria , now the last speaker tells us they get it from Cape Town. What is of great importance is that this Government realises that no-one has any confidence in it. What is known of this Government by the people at large is · that this Government is creating dissatisfaction among the people . You will find that in Butterworth there is such a disturbance caused by this Government that the Butterworth people do not know what to do . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture will support what I say. There is some disturbance in connection with the schools in Butterworth and the district has been divided into four groups . In these groups it was essential that a secondary school be established , but when government officials come
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEF ZULU: What do you think of a government which, instead of giving people money, only gives them Jabulani . How can we have confidence in such a government? Again, in Butterworth this Government sent officers
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new avenues of employment have been opened up, we have got a legislative assembly and so on. If we agree that all these have actually happened....
to Butterworth to tell the people to stop bearing children. (Laughter ) The people in Butterworth now have no confidence in this Government. What will happen if people stop bearing children? This Government is also responsible for this Jabulani and if people use Jabulani then they become barren. (Interjections)
MR. K.M. GUZANA : We don't agree. Don't you agree that we have MR . VIKA : a legislative assembly? if we agree that these are new developments , we admit that they are achievements of the Transkei Government within the framework of separate develoment. Is this what we call a mirage ? Independence is something for the Never- never , it has been claimed. A frog once said to boys who were throwing stones into a pool which was the frog's home : What is a game to you is death to us . Some people seem to be taking lightly what the citizens of the Transkei are very serious about: The return of the administration of their own affairs We admit that this target by themselves. of independence has not yet been achieved , but we are seriously working towards it. Of course , we cannot run away from the fact that independence will come through consultation between our Government and the Republican Government, with conditions laid down in consultation between the two . I hope you will underline the word "consultation "....
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . I will ask the members not to make so much noise . CHIEF ZULU: People also have a fear now that certain tablets are going to be issued so that the people will become barren and not be able to bear any more children. Now, tell us how we can have confidence in the Government? (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF ZULU: People want to know whether you have been sent to cause barrenness or whether the idea behind it is to give some sort of aid to the people. There is one question from the people in one of the locations. They ask it of a certain member of this Assembly. They ask what the Government has done for them . Is there a hope that the Government will do anything for them? That hon. member was unable to reply to that question.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Hear , hear.
The debate was adjourned . MR. VIKA: .... because it is through consultation, amicable consultation , that the Transkei state is in existence today. Yes , I admit means of travel are bringing the world closer and closer , but I do not agree that this will mean we will not think of countries , but only of the world, however wishfully we may think. A human being is a very peculiar creature . Wherever he is placed , he never forgets his identity. A jet plane can make it possible for a South African to have his breakfast in New York and his supper at home in Johannesburg , but this does not make him closer to his White friend who is in America than a Negro neighbour of that country, and yet what has the distance done to the residents of that country , at least between the Blacks and the Whites ? I submit that it is not distance that matters but it is the change of heart. I am not ruling out the possibility of Whites changing their hearts in this country towards the Africans .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 23rd April , 1970. THURSDAY, 23rd APRIL , 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have to announce that the Business Committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 3.45 this afternoon. TABLING OF REPORTS THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have the honour to lay down the Report of the Department of Education for the period 1st January to 31st December , 1968.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Hear , hear. MR. VIKA: Yet we should not be presumptuous. They have power and we have none . If they emancipate us in the Transkei , let us take advantage of this opportunity. It has been claimed that the races in this country are interdependent economically, but I ask a question: Do the "haves " acknowledge that? Do they take you as human beings or do they take you just as labourers ? Again , I submit that it is not until the hearts of people have been changed that you can be taken as a citizen by someone outside the Transkei . What you are here in the Transkei today, you call yourselves members of the Legislative Assembly but the honour you get here in the Transkei you do not get outside . (Interjection) Some of us who have been outside the Transkei know what it is to be a Kaffir . You
NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. MR. G.T. VIKA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the amendment. Separate development has been termed as a mirage by someone in this House , yet a mirage is an optical illusion , an illusive appearance of a sheet of water in the desert. Now I submit, Mr. Chairman, that since 1963 a humber of permanently visible improvements have taken place in the Transkei . Roads have been improved, better schools have been built,
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than the educated Africans , because you associate a White face with leadership . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the African has been subjected to repression for a long time and I think we must accept this as a fact - our Whites in this country do not trust us . They do not think we are capable of managing our Own affairs . They do not trust that we could efficiently work with them in their own parliament. This is why they have struck this compromise of giving us our own self-government. Now I think they have given us a chance and we must make use of it. You see , the Transkei so far still wants to get some rights from the Republican Government . We want more departments and we cannot get these if we are divided ourselves . I personally feel that we divided ourselves into parties prematurely instead of coming together and making our demands , and then after we have got the whole thing we could have divided ourselves . At the present moment we are working under separate development whether you like it or not.
speak of sharing. I submit that before we can be content with anything in the Transkei we must have something first. When we have independence then let us think about inviting other people to come and share it. We have been humiliated for the past 300 years . Now when we are being given a chance we are unwilling. It is typical of human nature to associate the hazards of the time with somebody. The Africans will always associate delinquency with the youth of the day. We say this about our children and tomorrow our children will be saying the same thing to our grandchildren. This is how I sometimes console myself about the way our Opposition behaves . It is because this Government is in power and they do not see anything that can be criticized . The only thing they do is to look outside at the Republican Government and speak about influx control. They know it is not the making of this Government. It has been ridiculously alleged that the drought is due to government policy. However , a lot has been said about this . We certainly cannot overnight hope to absorb all the labour of the Transkeian inhabitants economically, but this cannot be ruled out forever. It is not only the Transkei Government that cannot absorb its labour . Several countries , even overseas countries , are feeding the industries of the Republic with labour they themselves cannot absorb. The Transkei Government is doing all in its power to provide employment for its citizens . You all know that. They also allege that the Transkei Government wants to chase away the Whites. The same hon. member who said this had just implored the hon. the Minister of Education not to curtail the education of Transkeian citizens because the Transkeian citizens should fill the administrative posts . Now, how do you reconcile these two statements ? Someone wishing that the administrative posts should be filled by Transkeian citizens and atthe same time wanting the White officials to remain in these posts .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : So why shouldn't we divide into parties if we are under separate development ? MR. VIKA : It is because if we divide into parties now we are wasting time . We have wasted a whole week trying to say that separate development is nothing, whereas we are here only because of separate development. We are wasting time instead of coming together and making our demands to the South African Government. Before I sit down , Mr. Chairman , I would like hon. members to give us instances where they can say if the Transkei Government was not under separate development it would have done this or that successfully. Where has it failed because of separate development? I would also be interested to know if any of the members have been restricted in movement within the Transkei by the Transkei Government.
MR . K.M. GUZANA : You have got the wrong end of the stick now.
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the motion to the effect that the present Government is untrustworthy . I think as we are two parties in this House who contradict one another , there is no person appointed to act as a judge who will then say that one side has overpowered the other side . We would like to read from the papers and also to hear over the radio comments indicating who spoke well . It surprises me that people who collect news and hand it over to the radio for broadcasting are prejudiced . Listening to the radio the day before yesterday I was surprised to hear an announcer saying that the Government side is thrashing the Opposition completely. (Laughter ) Now , I believe that seeing I have made this remark the person responsible will in future send out correct reports to the radio . Mr. Chairman , we have no confidence in this Government. It is most important and well known that there is no confidence in this Government in the Transkei . The very fact that this Government is being supervised by another Government shows the only correct method by which this country can be settled is that all the people of this country
MR. VIKA: However, we want to assure you that the Republic has enough posts for our White The hon. member must not worry brothers . himself unduly over that. Figures were given comparing White and African income . Naturally that of the African is insignificant compared with that of the Whites . (Interjections ) OPPOSITION MEMBER: That shows a slave mentality. MR . VIKA : That is your mentality , the slave mentality, but what I want to submit is that this is exactly what should drive us to make us determined to get independence , so that we can have our own wealth and employ our own labour. A terrible admission was made , that the Democratic Party would expect the Whites to lead for a considerable time . Can we not call this a slave mentality? Why necessarily a White man when we have thousands of better educate Africans even outside the Transkei ? Why necessarily a White man? (Interjections ) It seems to me even the better educated or so- called leaders in South African circles are not better
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should stay together. It is our desire that , irrespective of any colour , we should all enjoy equal rights in this country. Separate development only amounts to death as far as the people are concerned. Imagine the oppression that has been broght upon people by the introduction of separate development ! Their policy of separate development has brought about a disease which prohibits people from obtaining employment beyond the borders of the Transkei , but before the acceptance of separate development people were at liberty to go and find employment elsewhere . We on this side desire that those people who are disciples of separate development should be converted to our side so that they should live a communal life . I was surprised today to hear a person advocating separate development, whereas one of the hymns in church goes thus : "Black and White should stay together. " (Laughter) We have also found out that the cause of divorce is due to separate development, because if a man goes to work under contract he is compelled when he returns home to stay two or three months and then he leaves his home for work again. If a labourer only stays at his home just for a period of two or three months , what work can he do for his If this man had a wife , would he be family? in a position to make his wife bear children within that period ? ( Laughter) I wish these people to be aware of the dangers that are brought about by separate development. This is not a laughing matter. Just imagine a man who left his home and remained away at the labour centre for two years , and when he returns home he is only allowed to remain for a period of two weeks. Would he be able to attend to his domestic affairs? We should realise that separate development is the most dangerous thing that a man can enter into . You know these people who have introduced separate development do not stay separately . In 1652 only one person arrived in this country with a wife . It was van Riebeeck , and all the other people who came with him obtained wives by marrying Hottentot women and they were mixed up together . When we say all the races should stay together we do not imply that we wanter intermarriage . THE CHIEF MINISTER : policy.
of the Republic when will your laws be put into effect? You follow the Republic because your brains have been imprisoned by that Government, so that you do not see what is taking place in the country. You say you want to be locked up in the Transkei . (Interjections ) As far as I am concerned it is a pity to find that great people want their brains to be locked up in gaoi. It has been said over and over again that in the Transkei the people want separate development and don't like multi - racialism because of their success in a bye - election in the Dalindyebo region. We know the reason for all that. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. KUTU: We know that the Government side neglected their work and instead they went round from door to door giving the people a bottle of brandy . (Laughter) The Pondos of Flagstaff showed you that they would not accept such bribery . Mr. Chairman, this separate development has damaged our people . People outside are starving. They cannot entrain to seek employment. All the towns in the Transkei are full of people and all those people want to go to work. People on the Rand have a complaint through this Government. They say we should be given the Transkei government in order to release people . The White employers want people to go to work for them . They say that on account of Matanzima's regulations they find it difficult to get employees. (Interjections ) What is usually said by the members of the governing side when canvassing for votes is that if people do not vote for this Government they will not get employment . That is amazing, for the Ministers and the Chief Minister to go round to people in the location. Those officers should be voted for on their own to go and consult the electorate so that the voters should just use their own discretion to vote and not be threatened with losing certain rights . I can tell this Government that the Tembus of Engcobo district have placed a challenge to this Government that before any election or voting is carried out they should be invited to come here . We are thankful to Dr. Verwoerd for giving us a platform where we can voice our opinion……….
Then you have no
MR. KUTU: We do not want the White people to marry our daughters. I do not know if one mates a pig and a goat what the outcome will be and what you would call the result. ( Laughter) It is quite clear that we on this side are trusted by the people and the Government side which is untrustworthy has shown in no uncertain manner that the people have no confidence in them. Can you say this is a government that can be trusted when it can arrest a chief and have that chief imprisoned ? The same Government will We represent you. Chief say to that chief: Sigidi was imprisoned without any cause . Chief Babini Langa was handcuffed and locked up in gaol and he came out of gaol having been found not guilty. (Interjections ) They were imprisoned by the Transkei Government. I am surprised to hear that those people were imprisoned by the Republican Government. Are you still using the laws of the Republic ? If you use the laws
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. KUTU: ....because we are going to voice our opinions as we like . Even if he has given us that horse to ride , separate development , we know it is a dead horse. If you want to cross a flooded river you can use even the trunk of a tree. MR. M. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the Government of the Transkei . Only a blind person will fail to see the present achievements of the Transkei . Imagine the statement of the hon. member who has just sat down, who says that a Black child can ever be carried on the back of a White child. I think that is unthinkable these days . Imagine when he says these contracts are a result of the Transkei Government. That is an untruth . This contract system was
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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
in operation in 1945 , long before the present government. (Interjections ) I was about amongst my own people and reminding them of that on the Reef. Look at things as they are today. I am talking to you people who still want to live cheek by jowl with the Whites . I went to Butterworth and watched Mr. Mayekiso walk about in his place . He has a large business there which did not exist during the time of the Whites , showing that the country now belongs to him . Let us seize the opportunities and rights which have been placed before us in the Transkei. Across here is a technical school where children are being taught and will reap the fruits of this country . During the tea interval just walk down and see Mr. Sobuza's business and come back and tell us whether or not you are surprised. The Bantu are very, very glad to enjoy the rights given to them bythe Transkei Government. Come out of gaol and enjoy the rights as well. (Laughter) When you move about the Transkei and see your sons occupying posts formerly held by the Whites you cannot help but be glad and say we are enjoying the rights . Yesterday I listened to an hon. member here who brought in a farfetched matter of pills . What has this Government got to do with pills ? Are you going to lay the responsibility on the Government for the failure of these business people ? You tell us about the need for people to use these pills . Is that the fault of the Government? What Government has forced pills down the throats of people ? Open your eyes and enjoy yourselves . You are like boys who go to milk the cows and never bring the milk home. What happens to such a boy? When milking time comes , take the can and bring the milk home. Don't spill the milk that is being given to you. You are like a mother with a cloth on her back to protect herself against the death of her baby. One of the members ofthe Opposition spoke about Jabulani beer. I think it would have been more proper for this member to have spoken about foreign liquor and advised us to refrain from taking it. I am an abstainer. (Laughter ) Don't mark time . Let us go forward . There are many things to go for . The Government has seen to it that your people are employed on the roads and get 25 cents a day for nothing. The Government has not placed any distinction but has merely voted money for people to live. Was there such money in the days of the Whites ? This same Government has in-
MR. MASIKO: I cannot remember any location that rears baboons or monkeys . These are days of civilization. Now the Government is appealing to those who are short of fodder to approach it so that they can remove their stock to better grazing. Those who have no confidence in the Government should not appeal to it for assistance . MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have started the year 1970 with this ding -dong of politics inherited by the Government of the Transkei . It will be remembered that once you sleep with dogs you It is very rise up with fleas. (Laughter) difficult to try to piece together all the nonsense that has been spoken here , especially by the Government party. When we say we have no confidence in the Transkei Government, we also refer the Transkei Government to convey to the Republican Government that we have no The Republican confidence in them either. Government has promised the Transkei people independence and that will be achieved through separate development . I want to give some light to this House as to what the Honourable Mr. Vorster said on the 21st of this month , on the eve of the elections . This was in connection with the homelands. I will just take the part that will suit the discussion . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You must quote him in full. MR. DUMALISILE : I am not going to read the whole column. He said : " Nobody can dispute the fact that in the process , White leadership , guidance , help and advice by attainment and achievement will be needed for very many years to come ." That is a sine qua non. You will remember that when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition spoke he said that even if you get independence it will be a conditioned independence , hence this honourable gentleman is out to tell you that for very many years you will be needing his guidance . THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is wrong with that? South Africa had the guidance of Great Britain for many years . MR. DUMALISILE : That is why we do not believe there will ever be any independence in the Transkei . ( Interjections ) I will go further and what I am going to read now will make even the governing everybody embarrassed , party. Here is a statement made by the hon. the Minister of Justice during the time he was intervieweing industrialists in the labour centres . He said : "Please don't send our sons to the waste -paper bucket, the homelands . "
creased the money for old- age pensioners so that the poor of the Transkei should live in the same way as the poor of other countries . What have you to say to that? When you say the people have no confidence in this Government , are you suggesting we should now go back and deprive these old women of their livelihood? If you go out when these pensions are paid you will find • our old women walking about in tennis shoes . In the Transkei the present Government has lent an ear to every person. There is a motion from a member for the improvement of salaries for headmen. How can you make such a request to a government you oppose ? If you have no confidence in the Government, why approach that Government for the benefit of the poor? Even in these areas stricken by the drought the Government has taken steps to see that there is fodder. ( Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is wrong with that statement? MR. DUMALISILE : Is the Transkei a wastepaper bucket? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , you don't know what he was referring to. (Interjections)
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been avoided, but that man has left the country now. One farmer had his servant bitten by a cobra and the nearest hospital ( I won't call it a White hospital) , but when the farmer took his servant there the man was near death and he Those are some of was refused admittance. the evils of separate development. A man can be subject to death because of his colour , but he cannot be admitted to a European hospital , if you want to call it that.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Don't drive away our MR. DUMALISILE : sons to the Transkei , the waste - paper bucket. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He never said that, he said the homelands. MR. DUMALISILE : I think in this case he was even including the Transkei , the Ciskei and all the homelands . Here is a man in the Government, holding a top position, who has described the Transkei more than we usually do. We have never used such terms . We knew that the Transkei is our home , but not the waste - paper bucket. One can draw the conclusion that even the Secretaries , the Commissioner- General are in this bucket. The Cabinet Minister , the chiefs and the hon. members are in this waste- paper bucket.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame ! MR. DUMALISILE: This reminds me of an insult once offered to our hon. Chief Minister in Queenstown because of his black colour . He was coming from the hospital , if not going into the hospital to visit some patients . A young European constable met him at the gate and This our hon. Chief Minister did not stop. young man just jumped out of the van and questioned him as to why he did not stop at the The Chief Minister introduced himself gate . as the Chief Minister of the Transkei and the constable said : "I don't care , you are still a bloody Kaffir. " Even if you are Chief Minister of the Transkei you still remain a Kaffir in this country. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And what do you say? Do you corroborate that statement? MR. DUMALISILE : I said I never thought the Transkei was a waste-paper bucket.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you corroborate that statement?
THE CHIEF That is fiction.
....and I would never MR. DUMALISILE : accept independence to be in a waste- paper bucket. We come now to the hon. member for Many times hon. members have Cofimvaba. said the Opposition Party is not an official Opposition and is not recognised officially. I think in any political set -up, when forming a constitution there has never been any provision for an opposition, but it is well known that in the multiplicity of peoples there is always diversity of opinion which will cause one man to think otherwise and will campaign for his views . THE CHIEF MINISTER : volutionary views.
MINISTER :
That is a lie .
MR. DUMALISILE : You know very well it happened. Now we come to education. I would like to take the departments as they are. During the war Sir Winston Churchill , describing the Spitfires , said they are faster than sound . We have now a new Minister of Education but it seems the sound of the former Minister is still echoing over the Education Department by his deeds . I think if the Department of Education would be fair enough and correct, it would observe the finances and have the hon. the Minister of Finance to check upon them . One instance has taken place in Willowvale . In spite of the fact that teachers are so very scarce in the Transkei , it is easy to find the Education Department taking a teacher from here to there , and there to here , just running between two schools , say, from Nqabara to Jalamba , from Jalamba to Nqabara and back again . That is costing the department money and when we vote for these funds we do not vote for them to be extravagantly spent. The department has education planners and we hope we have better men in the administration , but why do things so inefficiently? Many of our sons and daughters are loitering about after Those who aspire their Junior Certificate . to take teaching cannot apply to the institutions on their own. A list of training schools is sent to them . Circuit inspectors or inspectors are instructed to pick those who are fit for the training schools . Say , therefore , a form is sent to Blythswood and the principal is supposed either to admit or refuse the applicant. The delay happens because if there is no vacancy for that student it means the principal is either negligent or too busy to return it . Eventually the school opens and the child has not had any reply , whereas during our time I , as a parent, am entitled to apply for my child . As a result of that dilly -dallying many of our children are just
Campaign for re-
MR. DUMALISILE: In your opinion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , because you are outside the Constitution . MR. DUMALISILE : To make it clear that the Opposition party is an official opposition, I will quote from an examination paper for Std. 6 last year - the subject, history. This is from Question 49 : "In the Transkei there are two parties. One is the Democratic Party , which is the other ?" Now, when we teach we know we always have to start from the known to the unknown. (Laughter) To prove that the TNIP has not been known all the time , it was only • the Democratic Party that was mentioned and the Democratic Party is known all over the world. Coming to some of the points which have been raised by the governing party, praising their separate development , what an embarrassment has always been felt through separate development, even in hospitals . A White man was stung by bees and he turned black and eventually he was sent to a non- European hospital. (Laughter) During investigations it was discovered he was a White man. All this fuss could have
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others , to make reference to van Riebeeck - a matter which has nothing to do with the question in hand . We are proud of the Transkei Government because we promulgate our own laws . I do not believe that any man will allow anyone else to make regulations for him at his own kraal . Many of the members in the House spoke at length, criticizing this Government and succeeding in saying nothing . Even when they were questioned as to what action they would adopt if they became the ruling side they gave no reply . This Government has achieved great work by constructing schools for our children and those people who are interested in trades have been given ample opportunity . Roads have been constructed , labourers are paid and given increments , and old-age pensions have been increased. I saw one of the notices of motion in which one hon. member wishes to move that the aged should have homes constructed on their behalf.
going about unemployed. We hope the Department of Education will see to it that instead of making these restrictions or instructions which are a burden to anybody , they must allow the parents to make application to the institution because some of them do go to the institutions carrying money in their purses . I have touched on the shortage of teachers . Now, during the days of the Cape Education Department .... THE CHIEF MINISTER : You talk about things you don't know. It is imagination . MR. DUMALISILE : I know them. I have children. How should I not know it? During the Cape Education Department days those who had written their final examinations and had supplementaries to write were eligible for appointment, hence it was possible for any teacher with a supplementary to write to sit for his supplementary examination even if he was already in the classroom, but under this Government there is no child who is accepted as a teacher if she still has a supplementary subject.
THE CHAIRMAN : motion later, not now.
MR. BALENI : Mr. Chairman , one hon. member made reference to Apollo 13 , saying that a White , a Coloured and a Black should have gone into that spaceship, and I was not surprised at that because that particular gentleman lives on the Rand. He is used to staying at the kitchens and eating the remains of food that has been served to the masters . Even now he labours
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If there are qualified teachers , why accept one who has not completed the course ? MR. DUMALISILE : Ifthere are enough qualified teachers there would be no empty classrooms , as I stand now. THE CHIEF MINISTER :
You will discuss that
That is not true.
under the impression that in the Apollo there is a kitchen and in the kitchen a maid , and there he will enjoy a nice cup of tea . (Laughter) It surprises me , Mr. Chairman, that members of the Opposition stand up and criticize this Government and yet at the same time they have been elected by the people. Instead of these members joining hands with us and working together they sit down holding their pencils and do nothing. That is the reason for their failure at the polls , because they do not represent people. They are just watching the Transkei Government. When they go to the electorate they say they want to represent people and they do not say they are going to watch the Government. I am thankful to say that the Transkei has seen that these people are loafers . They do not care for anything . They want to create a disturbance in this very House . They want to be praised by the White people . I believe that some of them consult with them , or are being bribed by the White people . I say so because I cannot understand why you stand for the rights of the White people when you are as black as myself. (Laughter) In Cape Town parliament the White man has no time for the Black man. Even the Leader of the Opposition , Sir de Villiers Graaff , says if he wins only eight White people will represent the Black people , and no Black people will represent their own people . I support what has been said by the hon. members on the Government side , that there are certain dreamers . I wonder why they do not make reference to Vasco da Gama , but always talk about van Riebeeck?
MR . DUMALISILE : I am going to mention some and I do not see why the hon. the Chief Minister is so worried about education when the hon. Minister himself is quiet. (Interjections) Is it because he knows these things are happening? You are responsible because you hold the money back. There has been quite a lot of talk about our sons getting positions in the Transkei . As I have come in here during the session I have always seen new faces and the old ones have disappeared . THE CHIEF MINISTER : There are posts all over the Republic requiring efficient men. MR . DUMALISILE : They are always taking fresh new matriculants from the schools and paying them R20 a month.
MR . L. BALENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the motion which says the Government is trustworthy. This Government has the confidence not only of this House but also of the people outside the House . Firstly, I must attack the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . On Friday I .discovered that the Opposition has not enough members , because he said he was thankful to put his motion before the general election in the Republic . That caused his followers to be embarrassed and that embarrassment was similar to a flock of sheep who will follow their leader into anything. Just fancy if you are told to write about the health of your own family, and you write instead about the health of a city. The illiterate can only make an X mark. That has caused the hon. members , Mr. Majija and
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in order to give the hon. member time to flog the Opposition , I move the adjournment of the House .
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were all made as a result of this policy to protect good living among the White people . Certain jobs have been reserved only for them and not one Black person, no matter how welleducated he may be , can get such employment . in so much that recently authority has been granted to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development so that he has debarred certain Black employees from being employed in certain jobs . When you take your child to school your intention is to have him obtain a certain qualification with a view to your child having some specific employment. On account of separate development our people cannot get employment in certain industries . All people of all races derive a livelihood from industry.
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. L. BALENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was saying that separate development is responsible for agreement in South Africa even among the different races. Before the advent of separate development you will remember there were quite a lot of disturbances . The people were dissatisfied with policies and they had no opportunities and no say in their own country. I remember in the old days when they went to work in Durban among the Indians , and they used to say " Ja , baas " to the Indians because the Indians enjoyed more opportunities , and that was why we had to address them as "baas " . When the Nationalist Government took over it Decame clear to the Indians that they themselves were as black as we are and they then tried to harmonize with us . Mr. Chairman , let truth prevail. The policy of separate development has now led to the position where we have Cabinet Ministers , and not only Cabinet Ministers but responsible , fair and understanding Ministers . Today in our law courts we have Black magistrates , a thing which was inconceivable formerly. I am surprised , therefore , that when we have been given the policy of separate development some of the members should insist that they want multi- racialism . I know what they have seen formerly in this policy of multi -racialism . We are proud of our sons who are at university studying law. They know that on leaving university they will have opportunities . Formerly a matriculant used to be a tea boy or messenger. (Interjections ) Even people in the urban areas today realise that separate development is best. Buses today carrying passengers to urban locations are driven by Blacks , a thing that never happened in the days of the Smuts Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : this Constitution?
Why did you make
CHIEF NDAMASE : If these people meet ill -treatment in the places where they work for the livelihood of their families .... THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I want to put a question to the hon. member. He is now speaking against what he created . I would like to ask this question : Why did you make this Constitution? You were a member of the Transkeian Territorial Authority - why did you sign this Constitution ? CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Chief Minister asked this question shortly after I began to speak. He will realise that as I am explaining , his question is being answered . Then this separate development has brought about ethnic grouping. This ethnic grouping only affects the Black people and other races are not affected by it. If I am correct, ethnic grouping is in accordance with the language used by those people . If a certain section of the people use a certain language , those people will stay by themselves , and similarly with others. It surprises us that as there are two different races speaking different languages , ethnic grouping is not applied in their case . If ethnic grouping is right, why is it not applicable to the White races ? On account of this separate development there is an Act known as the Bantu Labour Act. This Act only affects the Black person and all other races are unaffected by it. Let me point out just one little matter in that Act. In this Labour Act there is a provision to the effect that if a Black man is drunk or found under the influence while at work he is arrested . He is going to be arrested just because he is found drunk whilst on duty, and yet besides being found drunk on duty he is also liable to arrest when he is found drunk . That is made so that the police may arrest the person and charge him with two counts of drunkenness . Then there are certain regulations affecting employers . There is no provision in the same Act to the effect that if an employer is drunk and he obstructs his employee because of his drunknness he will be arrested . He cannot be arrested because there are many White employers . This is the outcome of separate development. Again, there is something in this There used to be one separate development. common Junior Certificate but I believe , be-
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to lay stress on the fact that there is no confidence in this Government. I shall first make an attack on the Government's policy , namely the policy of separate development which is being followed by the present Government. This did not originate with our own government which has been created by the Republican Government with the aim of certain things being solely the right of the White people . What has come out of separate development? Where does separate development come from ? It comes from racialism which causes hatred amongst the races staying together . In fact, this separate development is not the creation of this Government. What is wrong with this Government is that it supports separate development, a policy which does not aim at assisting the Black people . Some time they accepted this thing. thinking they would get something out of it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you sign the Constitution ? You made the Constitution. CHIEF NDAMASE: The following regulations 59.
office of this present Government, they have made no attempt to stop migratory labour.
cause of the brilliance of certain Black students , education for the Black became Bantu education. One White Member of Parliament spoke , not in parliament, but addressing his party in Durban, and he stated that Bantu education was introduced so that not a single Black man should ever say he is equal to a White man as far as education is concerned. This is a result of separate development. Has separate development made provision for any rights to be enjoyed by a Black person? As we are now speaking, in an issue of the Daily Dispatch there is a report of an industrialist being put on the carpet by the Government, who asked him whether the intention was that Black and White should be brought together in industry so that they should do the same work. Does that not imply that the Black people should do inferior jobs though they have power and knowledge like the White labourer ? What is the mother of that idea? The mother is separate development. Coming to administration by the Transkei Government....
THE CHIEF MINISTER : that?
How can we stop
CHIEF NDAMASE : The result of this migratory labour is that if a married man takes a contract he has to remain away from his home for a period of nine months . That is not right, because when a man marries he should remain with his wife so that together they can bring up the children. There would be no difficulty if they made such arrangements that the wives could go to the labour centres and live with their husbands , just as other races do , so that the wives and husbands are given accommodation where they can stay. Now we have been given the seconded officials and when they come here they bring their wives and children, though at some later stage they will have to return. (Interjections) My hon. chief has asked how we can stop migratory labour . This is a rhetorical question . I think he knows that if industries and factories are started in the Transkei that would be the solution . Capital should be allowed to be introduced into the Transkei and not just come through the XDC . Turning to education, all along we have been told that our tribal authority will be given ten classrooms or five classrooms in each school. What we now learn is that one district is entitled to only one school. How will education be a success? Is this Government not supporting the retardation of the progress of the children's education? In one of our schools there are 400 to 500 pupils and there are only six teachers . This Government says there are no teachers . This Government has taken the training school to Cicira instead of leaving it in Umtata and building another training school at Cicira . There are large areas such as Gcalekaland region with not a single training school in that area, and yet it is said there is a shortage of teachers . There is what is called the "new approach" . For example , that teacher who has 400 or 500 pupils under him has to mark papers in one subject and at the same time has to study this new approach in science . Does the Government sympathize with those teachers ? These teachers are your children and ours . Turning to labour , this Government has been given authority to make laws except in respect of certain items which this Government may not touch.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Have you answered my question? CHIEF NDAMASE : It is surprising to hear that there has been a circular from the Government instructing rangers and demonstrators to investigate whether the chiefs and headmen have not granted sites without first obtaining permission. It would have been better if that circular also had an instruction to those officers that they should go first to the headmen and chiefs and go with them to find if there were any sites occupied without such permission. Is it right when you are working with a person not just to tell him that a thing is not right, but the other thing is correct, instead of sending someone to spy on him? It is the practice that the chief first grants the sites to the applicant and thereafter approaches the magistrate who will certify that this grant is in order , but instead a policeman is sent out . Will that policeman not have the chief or headman arrested ? (Interjections) During the time of the Bunga this matter was brought up, that there should be certain officers to demarcate the lands . The Bunga of that time objected . Then this was introduced by this Government, that these field officers should do this . Today the homes of the rangers and demonstrators are great places wherever rehabilitation has been accepted. (Interjections ) The hon. the Chief Minister says I should send a list to the magistrate's office , but at the same time he is the very person who says these matters should be referred to the tribal authority . This is another thing which surprises us. There are certain seconded officials in our government Among those seconded from the Republic . officials there are certain employees who leave school and are employed straight away in the Transkei Government , and they are taught how to do their respective work by officers as black How has that happened , as it is as myself. stated that the seconded officials have come to How can a student teach the Black people ? who has just left school come and teach? This makes us doubt very much, because it appears that as a person grows there is also a tendency to curb such growth. During the seven years '
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment. In my doing so I would like to make the following remarks . It is my contention that those who will succeed us one day will make a record of what has been happening in these few History is very strict. It is an irony days. that whilst the results ofthe four political parties in the Republic of South Africa are streaming in, all these parties wanting the confidence of the people on the issues involved , we are busy talking the sort of thing some of us are busy doing this afternoon . Not one of those political parties ever said one thing , and that is that they would be keen to have us next to them - not one. Therefore it is on record that whilst the proverbial Rome is burning the sons and daugh-
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Constitution of the Transkei. I must admit that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition fell short on one important specific item of his debate . He failed to see the clear division between separation and discrimination . In separation, if I have to use the author and sponsor of this policy , we are entitled to self- determination and self-assertion , and that is why we are appealing to you not to play marbles in the street while Rome is burning , because there is so much work to be done . This discrimination , on the other hand , is based on the history of South Africa, it is confirmed by social conventions and it is cemented by legislation over which we have no control. It is under these conditions and circumstances that my good friends make their voices hoarse talking about nebulous , tailless , headless multi- racialism . Fortunately , nobody must give us the dictionary definition of the term " multi - racialism " . We know the definition but, my good griends , in terms of human affairs and indeed in the social , economic and political structure of South Africa , how do you propose to implement the policy of multiracialism ? The fact that the Black man has no place in the body politic of South Africa is entrenched in the Constitution of South Africa . It is , as I have said , cemented by legislation . It is the blueprint of all political parties in South Africa. What a motley crowd , including the big-headed member from Umtata , to enable you to change all these things ! Mr. Chairman , it is , as I say , as a result of this confused
ters of the Transkei are busy playing marbles in the streets . The issue before us is simple. Do we have confidence in ourselves ? Do we believe that we are by the decree of the Lord Almighty destined to have a place under the sun? Or do we, or are there some in our midst , who still believe that we are a third- grade nation destined for all times to be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water? To this side of the House the answer is clear . At the seventh year we have come of age . Perhaps the Opposition might be clearer if I tell some of my hon. friends that seven years ago a state was ushered into the troublesome and stormy seas of human affairs . Six men , untried , inexperienced, unseasoned, distrusted , launched the ship . Prophets of doom wetted their lips and dippied their pens . One heard the voices of political lackeys preaching inevitable doom , chaos and destruction. Epithets of scorn, derision and hate were exhausted . In 1968 these men had to report on their stewardship. The voice of the people was heard in clear terms . Indeed, there had been teething problems and there are still problems today, yet the people showed a wider assessment of issues and saner judgment than some of us could ever hope to . In eloquent terms , Mr. Chairman , they expressed full confidence in the Government of the Transkei . Mr. Chairman , we are in the 1970s , a decade of hope and confidence . This is as contrasted to the despair and diffidence of my friends on the This side of the House is seeing other side . a decade of vision and ambition . ( Interjections )
thinking whilst Rome is burning that we have to come and waste four to five days when people are starving. It becomes necessary at times that nations have to agree on being separated from one another. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made reference and allusions to the situation in America. Indeed , Mr. Chairman, the position of the Negro , to be part of the body politic in America , is entrenched in the Constitution , but what does an amendment mean when it comes to the unfolding of human What does it mean? The fact of the values?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is contrasted to the self- pity , wound - licking and uneasy comfort which is derived in stolen letters . We are confident of ourselves . It is with this background and under these circumstances , Mr. Chairman . that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition dares move the vote of no confidence in the Government. but I must admit , and I am saying this from the bottom of my heart, that I am short of adjectives to congratulate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on his performance . He was clear , deliberate and suave and gentlemanly. He made an analysis , an impressive analysis , of the figures which , in fact , were perfectly correct but unfortunately his scholastic approach , his language , his gentlemanly decorum confused his henchmen who did not understand what he was talking about. ( Laughter ) It is a scholar, a gentleman, a leader of an Opposition , a nationalist , a lover of his own people who could spend sleepless nights making a study of such figures as he did , instead of reading stolen letters the whole night. (Laughter ) The unfortunate thing is that his henchmen did not distinguish between the vote of no confidence on the administration of the Government or the vote of no confidence on the estblishment of the Constitution and operation of that Government. The poor " Harrys " came and listened but were not following the man. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition castigates the Government, proving that he would be a better Chief Minister of the Transkei . He therefore accepts the position as it is in the Transkei . The poor " Jims " come here to say there is no such thing as a
matter is that the Negroes in America have realised that the Whites are not prepared to admit them into their society . Are you really dull of soul? Aren't you aware of the creation of the state of Israel ? Aren't you aware that the Jews had to leave so many places in the world, but were prepared to die in diseaseinfested places all over the world in order that they should have a place under the sun? Are you dull of soul ? Don't you know that after the Indians had fought and expelled the English rajah they had to agree to be in India and Pakistan? Are you dull of soul ? Don't you know that even the Whites of Northern Ireland have divided themselves between Protestants and Catholics in order to have their own rights . Are The political you dull of soul? (Laughter) parties in South Africa have made themselves very clear. The much vaunted reference to the Progressive Party - my word, how cut short ! The Progressive Party never said if the Government of South Africa refused to admit Africans And then they would defy the Government . what happened when the Government of South Africa made it clear that in fact all political parties that made it possible for them to come in would be banned? In fact , the Liberal Party
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his restaurant or into his hotel , but I will own those places one day. Whether it comes slowly or not, I am going that way. I shall see to it that if you do not succeed yourself in getting there , your son will get to it. Yes , we admit it is a hazardous road. It is indeed fraught with quite a lot of difficulties but we are moving on, building our own state , evolving our own systems even for your children. Indeed , it is clear that some of you are so much happy to remain watching the fatty pots of Egypt but the political parties in South Africa and the Government of South Africa have made it so abundantly clear that you will not have a share in the parliament of the Republic , yet you are now the unsuspecting stupid lackeys of some of the stupid political reactionaries in the Republic. The reactionary forces have no chance to say some of the things they would like to say in our Legislative Assembly. They have some unsuspecting lackeys , such as indeed you are , to do that for them. (Interjections)
was banned that very afternoon. Are you dull of soul? (Laughter) What about the clear achievements? If you hon. gentlemen are not prepared to admit that for the first time in the history of South Africa the Blacks themselves are occupying high positions in the civil service , tarry there while the wagons of progress move on. (Interjections) I would like to remind the hon. member from Umtata that I know the effects of sour milk if you have taken too much of it. (Laughter) If the medical practitioners and the easy handing over of the Health Department is being given over to the Blacks in the Transkei, if you are not aware of that, tarry here whilst the wagons of progress go on. If the advent of businessmen into the urban areas of the Transkei means nothing to you , if a Sobuza comes and passes you like a mirage , if that means nothing to you for goodness ' sake tarry here while we pass on. (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to point out to those people in the gallery that they should realise it is a privilege for them to come here and they are not part and parcel of this House , so they must not laugh aloud.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I would not spoil the good words I have given describing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because the rest do not deserve them, but I must admit it was a pathetic sight to see the hon. member for Ngqeleni standing up . Clearly the man has a lie in his soul and he does not believe a word he says . Well , what about the (Laughter ) shadow Minister of Education ? I must honestly say the country shudders at the possibility , no matter how remote . (Laughter ) Let me leave it at that. The poor gentleman stood up and made a vain attempt to show some knowledge of what happens in the Department of Education . He was trying to fiddle with the affairs of the establishment and running of training schools . All he did was to expose utter dismal ignorance as to what happens there . The fact of the matter is that there are so many applicants for P.H. 1 in the Transkei that even at the best of circumstances no department could have coped with them . For instance , we had over 7,000 applicants to go to P.H. 1. In the meantime our own Junior Certificate schools had only 3,600 candidates . In the meantime the department has to make it clear to the Transkei and to all and sundry that the days of third grades · that is , when those who passed third grade were channelled to the training schools - those days are over. The old saying that if you cannot do anything , at least you can teach - those days are over. Now, here is a form of application for admission Amongst many other to the training school . things there is a part for the parent to sign and show preference for a school .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the trouble is that some of our friends are not prepared to appreciate their own people running the businesses they are running. certain honourable gentleman had the audacity to tell the country and the world that the money spent in the building of the Transkei Hotel was a tragic waste of money . Of course , we can understand the poor " Jim " had expected thousands to go to his café , for what has been pleasing the poor "Jim" is that the Africans in the Transkei must be the sons and daughters of a backdoor nation. If you go to a hotel, separate facilities must be made for you at the back. If you want to sip beer then you must go to the toilet. That would please the hon. gentleman and those of his ilk. The Government of the Transkei , with the support of the people , is moving on with or without or, in fact, in spite of you. After all , we shall be doing what is done in history - we shall kick you, drag you, pull you by the ears and put you like some queer laggage into the wagons of progress. Mr. Chairman, we are looking for a solution. We are not going to Cape Town and wa are not interested in Cape Town any more . We are only interested in our own cause and we have confidence in ourselves , and even in spite of ourselves we are looking for a solution. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition will catch me there . It will please the hon. member for Engcobo that I do admit the Minister of Education may not go into some restaurants in Umtata for the simple reason that special arrangements must be made. In the restaurant there must be certain cups , especially those with cracks in them, set aside for the convenience of the Minister of Education and the member for Engcobo. I will not go there. I will also admit, the hon. member will note, that sometimes the Town Hall of Umtata will be barred to our use . I do admit that. We are prepared to look for a solution in spite of ourselves , for the truth is simply that time and history and everything are on our side. It is the other man who refuses admission to him at
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : And where do they end?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What happens is that there is sometimes a delay in a certain school. (Interjections ) As far as that is concerned I want to assure the hon. member that the matter is being dealt with . MR. DUMALISILE : 62.
They are out now.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I want to say that the hon. member has made his point and it is clear. An hon. member believing in the cobwebby ideas (because there is only one person with an idea on that side - the rest have cobwebs ) - one of them spoke against homelands . I asked him where his home is. He tells me his home is in Johannesburg. I ask you - the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You didn't only sign the Constitution, it was your request.
The reason why we CHIEF NDAMASE : signed was because we wanted a platform . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
You never said
So. tall buildings in Johannesburg are his home ! Eloff Street and Commissioner Street are streets in front of his father's house. At night the glare of the lights of Johannesburg are the stars shining outside his home. I told him that the gulf between him and me was too deep. I told him : You tarry here whilst go back to the Transkei to see that these people have employment. He went further and said that the homelands of the Transkei are where people are vermin- stricken and flea- infested . I said : Brother , with those of your equal stay here and I will go back to the vermin- infested Transkei because some of the people there are my brothers and sisters and they can always use DDT .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEF NDAMASE : We could do no otherwise because we would not have got the platform . You were satisfied with the bone without meat, whereas on the other hand you should have used the platform given to you to achieve something better. (Interjections) The hon . the Chief Minister says we praised this policy, together with Dr. Verwoerd. Do you want to be praised by Mr. Vorster ? In so far as separate development is concerned , what puzzles you is the fact that there is also a phrase that arose and that is parallel development. You don't look at the rails of parallel development to see how these rails are constructed. Yes , there are two rails and one of them seems to be of iron and it is quite strong. The other rail appears as though it is iron and yet it is made of wood. You are travelling on wood which will rot soon. Don't be so pleased when you are told it is parallel development when you have not made it yourself. For that reason we support the contention that there is no confidence in this Government. Let us take the construction of schools . Previously, the people used to pay for this and the Government paid on a pound-for - pound basis , and this Government suggested that if the people paid R1 the Government would pay R1 . This pleased the people , but it has never been carried out. Fortunately for me I come from a region which pays a heavy levy to put up schools . All the schools in the Nyanda region pay a certain levy towards the construction of school buildings but if you take account of the schools put up by this Government it is a disgrace that there are so few of them. How can we have confidence in this Government? It is a government that promises but never fulfils its promises. The only achievement I have seen on the part of this Government is this : It is like an incubator for hatching chickens but this incubator does not produce chickens . It produces cheap labour for the Republic . What satisfies the hon. the Chief Minister, together with his followers , is to see that R1 is collected per capita for the people recruited. They rejoice at sending out cheap labour to build up the Republic . They generally pay visits to the Republic to find out how the employees are being treated, but there have been no tangible results indicating that there are certain steps being taken in connection with the labourers in the Republic . It would appear they are just having "jolly time " visits to the Republic, using these black cars , and then they are supplied with fencing material which they bring to the Transkei. The dignity of the Transkei is being lowered by actions of the Government. They go to see things that are done by the authorities in the Ciskei . When they visit the Ciskei they cannot voice their full opinion amongst the Ciskei authorities ,
MR. K.M. GUZANA : You know, of course , that DDT is now considered a dangerous pesticide . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I know , but it may still kill some fleas . Gentlemen, I made an appeal last year and I make it again now. You are delaying the fruition of some of the ideas you treasure . How on earth we can ever disagree on our country, the Transkei , when it is being brought to us - how we can disagree on that, I don't know. Therefore we are saying to you , for goodness ' sake as far as this issue is concerned don't waste our time and the time of your own children, and if the Transkei is vermin- infested , if the people ofthe Transkei are unemployed , if, in fact, the Transkei is a veritable hell , we choose to rule there with Mephistopheles and leave you to sweep the streets in Heaven. (Interjections ) Therefore , gentlemen, we are moving on and in this road we have chosen we have nothing to fear but fear itself. Thank you , Mr. Chairman . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after the speech which has been made by the last speaker I want to draw your attention to this : If his father , Vorster, was not busily occupied in the Republic with elections , and his brothers , the Nationalists , were present in this hall they would have been very pleased today because they would realise they had done their work in earnest. You have been told long ago that the policy you are following is not your policy . (Interjections) It is your road. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You chose it.
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am not going to reply to that . The Nationalists gave you this separate development in the Transkei so that the Black man should concentrate his mind on one spot , whereas on the other hand they will be grabbing away the whole of South Africa. There is a lot of talk about signing the Transkei Constitution. Now I want to attack that very point so that it is clear and we can find out....
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For those reasons I CHIEF NDAMASE : associate myself completely with the motion of no confidence in the Government.
and not only the Ciskei , but all the authorities in the Republic. Remember , you have a right to say anything you want and not just leave things as though you are women. I shall now deal with the labour question , because the livelihood of the people depends upon bread. The labourers have a complaint and this has been repeatedly said in this House , that out in the labour centres the labourers are told to return to the homelands under the supervision of Matanzima . You heard it said last week that the Republican Government is driving away all the labourers from employment in the shops and offices . If they are repatriated, what kind of work will they obtain when they get home? No attempt seems to have been made to introduce industries into the Transkei except perhaps those which are conducted by the XDC . Will that not cause the people to have no confidence in this Government? The labourers also have a complaint
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret that once more I have got to indict certain members on the Opposition benches with dishonesty , untruthfulness and unreliability. I will do this before I take up the cudgels in my determination to chastise the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, because the whole approach to the motion of no confidence was irrelevant. I will first of all deal with certain hon. gentlemen across the floor who are the architects of the policy of separate development which is now the subject of attack. As long as they take part in the debates in this House and take up the policy of separate development as their target, so long shall I have to quote their utterances to show this House that they are Judases . In doing so I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that they changed their minds because of the persuasion which was made on them by the Ahrensteins and Doubts . In doing so I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that the policy which we have embarked upon is the policy of these hon. gentlemen. Now , in 1957 , as far back as 1957 , the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland in proposing a vote of thanks to the Minister of Native Affairs at the time , Dr. Verwoerd , said these words : "We still have great confidence in your officials (meaning the officials of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development) . We are sure we shall still require their guidance and their assistance for many years to come in the development of the present body, the Transkeian Territorial Authority , so our Native Commissioners should not feel they are set aside because today they are sitting at the side of the House and not at the horseshoe as previously. It is a piece of work of which they too should be proud because they can see the fruits of their own labours . What is most important in our minds today is your address which was founded on two chief points . The first point was that of separate development, which means that the Bantu should have their own activities and the European people their own activities , separate from the Bantu. You gave a very good example of a tree that has been planted by the Government and which it is incumbent upon us to look after . I can say that the Bantu Authorities in which we find ourselves today is that tree . "
that they are regarded as slaves being sold at the rate of R1 per person. That causes people in the Transkei to have no faith in the Government. What we find is that the Nationalists are pleased to see that we live as we now do , yet other parties in the Republic have something to say against these Bantustans . As we now speak you will realise that certain seats have been lost by the Nationalists in the Republic . Why must we be satisfied with this " pondokkie " in which we live ? We must make some attempt as men and not behave as women. The hon. the Minister of Education made reference to the wagon of progress . I see he is one of the drivers of this wagon. There is the one who is sitting in front, the Chief Minister , who is watching this wagon, but he did not succeed in telling us the destination of this wagon. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . CHIEF NDAMASE : What is being carried by this wagon? Yes , he is right not to have told us , because we see this wagon is going in circles . In it there are only a few people. I can count them and tell you it is six Ministers and a few Black people coming from the labour centres who are already rich. What is the distance between these few people in this wagon and the hordes of Black people who are suffering? This wagon is leaving behind the people who should be on it. Those people are the labourers . How can we have confidence in such a government? The hon. members across the floor have been saying they want independence . That is their sing- song. You speak of independence but how will you acquire wealth? As far as agriculture is concerned the Transkei is not up to the mark. In the Transkei there are no mines where we can dig out wealth. There are no minerals in
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Read further . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now , Mr. Chairman, that was the inspiration which was given to the late Dr. Verwoerd in order to proceed with the policy of separate development. Now, in 1961 a motion came from Western Pondoland , the area of the Paramount Chief whom I have just quoted now. I have got to make these quotations year after year in order to show the country that you are a dishonest conglomera tion of people who form what is so called an Opposition . Now, this is the motion moved by Mr. Lingham Maninjwa and I will show later on that it was seconded by the Paramount Chief of Tembuland. To show that I am an honest person I will give you my own utterances on that occasion. You
the Transkei and it would probably be difficult to get minerals because we are near to the coast. ( Interjections ) Order , please . I shall THE CHAIRMAN : ask the hon. member to go out before long. CHIEF NDAMASE : If there are no minerals how can the Transkei become an independent state ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: land and Botswana?
What about Swazi-
64.
ment, being a kind chief to us , we must first sit down and consider ways and means of approaching the Government, especially as the beast which we are going to ask from the
try to show the people you have always been opposed to the policy of separate development when you are pleasing certain people who are urging you to bring forward these ideas. (Interjections) Now, this is the motion : "That in order to ease the present situation of uneasiness in the Union of South Africa and in view of the Government's policy of separate development and the fact that the Bantu people in the Union have no representation in the Union Legislature (a) this Territorial Authority in session respectfully requests the Government to declare the Transkeian Territories as a whole a self-governing state under the control of the Bantu people ; (b) that arrangements for the drawing up of the relative Constitution be made by the authorities in consultation with the leaders of the Bantu people in the Transkeian Territories; and (c ) that this item be given priority in order to take advantage of the presence of To Government officials from head office . " this an amendment was moved by the hon. member for Ngqeleni . I am going to read his amendment , because he was so eloquent in condemnation of the policy , and I want to prove that the indictment by the hon. the Minister of Education that he was uttering an inward lie was correct. Now, this is the amendment by the hon. member for Ngqeleni associating himself with the motion which sought a Constitution to implement the policy of separate development. He says : "I move an amendment that whereas it is the stated policy of the Government that the Bantu Territories shall be developed to the status of self- government.... "
Government has been promised to us time and again. " Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, before indicting this side of the House , should first of all have analysed the individuals forming up a group of unmanageable individuals who are his henchmen. ( Interjections ) I am coming to you. Listen to what the Paramount Chief of Tembuland said on that occaYou know, in a sion. He was so eloquent. spirited mood he says : "Why should we be afraid to control and administer our own affairs when those in authority are handing that authority to us ? We accepted the system but it would appear that the authorities we are now enjoying are restricted . If the Government would encourage us to take up self-government, why cannot we accept that willingly and with open arms ? I do not know why it has been suggested that we should take time over the matter. " Look These honest people ! at that. Now, I am coming to you, Chief Sandy Majeke . I wish to quote the hon. gentleman from Qumbu who always makes himself a saint and a person who can Chief Majeke - this is what he be believed . said on the occasion, referring to this motion. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . Listen, you so THE CHIEF MINISTER : criticize this Government on separate development, when you were the architect of that body. Why did you drop this Constitution for the Transkei? This is what the hon. member said : "I think that this motion is the most important one of all the motions on the agenda. I think it meets all the desires and wishes of this I could quote at large and show Authority. " how anxious these hon. gentlemen were that Dr. Verwoerd should grant the Transkei self-government. Now they were the leaders of the Transkei at the time , and I was amongst their followers . Listen to what I said on that occasion : " This is a very important item on the agenda and as far as I could listen to the debate it appeared In to be a very highly contentious subject. the circumstances , would it not be wise to take this matter back to our constituencies , address meetings and bring the attention of the people to this motion?" But the hon. members across the floor were so hot and so anxious to im-
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , please . There is an hon. member there who is continually talking.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : "....and whereas this Authority has now been in existence for about five years , and whereas this Authority considering the supreme importance of the Government's policy does not doubt the sincerity of the Government in this respect, and considering that Motion No. 101 (that is this motion by Lingham Maninjwa ) pertains to this policy, this Authority accepts the motion in principle and resolves to appoint a recess committee of 27 members to consider the financial implications of the granting of self-government , bearing in mind inter alia all taxes direct and indirect payable by Bantu in these Territories ; to consider, in the event of such self-government being granted and established , it shall not in any way tamper with the present set-up of chieftainship in these Territories . " Look at what he says when referring to the Republican Government, calling them his father and saying that he was to ask for a beast from his father . " I • think this amendment is self-explanatory " , he says . "I think if a person will look through our Blue Books he will find that this Authority, even before it became a Territorial Authority and while it was still the UTTGC , always asked for what is contained in this motion. I think it is because of those requests that the Government has allowed the establishment of Bantu Authorities and created a law whereby people would develop on their own lines in the Union. We are being given an opportunity. The Govern-
plement the policy of separate development that they could just not listen to that, and now the big Judases come forward before this House , washing their dirty hands full of blood, after stabbing their own colleague in the back because this colleague of theirs happened to suceed in the leadership of this country and had the confidence of the country that he should lead the Transkei . Mr. Chairman, and hon. members , I will continue to chastise the hon. members across the floor tomorrow morning. I move the adjournment of this House . Agreed to .
The debate was adjourned . 65.
would like to see this House filled with White representatives . He should have liked to see the retention of proprietary rights by Whites over their properties to the entire exclusion of Transkeian citizens , and those entrenched discriminatory laws that were passed since preUnion days . Now, Mr. Chairman, the history of South Africa is well-known to the hon. members across the floor. They know that since 1806 the Cape Colony was a British domain and had representative government with a legislative assembly , an assembly such as we have . Certain powers were reserved for control by the British Government. This position continued for 94 years , up to the Union of South Africa which was established in 1910. After Union the Government of South Africa did not attain a sovereign status until the year 1934. Now, I am giving these facts to a historian and he cannot deny them , but he makes a hue and cry over the question of independence of a government that has been in existence for only seven years .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 24th April , 1970 . FRIDAY , 24th APRIL, 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , yesterday in my preliminary counter-attacks on the Opposition side I successfully, by documentary evidence , proved to this House that the question of a vote of no confidence based on the policies followed by this Government was completely irrelevant and that it was a misdirection of the issues that should be discussed in a motion of no confidence in the Government. These issues were thoroughly considered in 1963 when the Constitution of the Transkei was drawn up. This House had the consternation of listening to the most irrelevant and completely out- of- subject speech by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on his motion of no confidence in the Government. Instead of attacking the Government on matters falling within the purview of its jurisdiction , he went out of his way to support the United Party candidates in the Republican election campaign. I wonder if those gentlemen really required his assistance , for the hon . member well knows that the policy on which the Transkeian Government was established is the policy of White South Africa as a whole , and it is the policy that is based on a Constitution which was framed by some of the hon. members across the floor who were the leaders of the Transkei at the time. It is misleading to tell the country that the Republican Government imposed a Constitution on the Transkei . Had the hon. members whom I attacked yesterday not made this request to the Republican Government, the Republican Government should never have passed this piece of legislation and you would still be a Bunga , frustrated in all respects . In 1964 the hon . members across the floor who were the remnants of the first Legislative Assembly arrogated to themselves a policy that was not provided for in the Constitution - a policy which demanded the integration of all the races in South Africa . I cannot be wrong if I say that they acted at the instigation of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, but later on this hon. Leader of the Opposition soft- pedalled and aligned himself, to the disgust and discomfort of most of his colleagues , with the United Party policy of White .supremacy with justice , and accepted a provincial status for the Transkei . Now this session, to the amazement of everybody in the country, the hon. member has come out and unequivocally stated that he accepts White leadership of the Transkei . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Republic . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
MR . GUZANA : I am not making a hue and cry. You are making a hue and cry. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has asserted that the question of the Transkei attaining independence is to him a matter that belongs to a never - never world. To this I shall reply and advise him and all those who think like him that the matter of the integration of the races in South Africa is a matter that belongs to a never - never world . He further asserted that when independence is granted to the Transkei it will be conditional and that the Republican Government will determine the conditions on which such independence should be granted , but this is nothing new. When South Africa was given sovereignty as a responsible government in 1934 , such sovereignty was conditional . Even when South Africa became a republic in 1961 there were still such questions as the Simonstown Agreement. Now, whether the granting of independence to the Transkei shall be conditional or not , I want to assure the hon. members of this House that such independence will be attained . This has been confirmed by a statement which has recently been made by a Minister of the Republic - the Minister of Economic Affairs , Mr. Haak . Mr. Haak has assured the country that the Republican Government will put no ceiling. on any self-governing African states in South Africa that want to attain independence , even if such South African states have got communists in their midst , such as some of the fellowtravellers of communists among yourselves . this is what Mr. Haak says : Now listen "Bantustans can become fully independent states with their own communist parties , " he told a Nationalist Party meeting at Winberg . MR. GUZANA : statement?
What was the date of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : April the 8th , 1970 . He was answering a question as to whether Bantustans would be granted independence . Replying, he said : " They can develop and ultimately they can become sovereign independent states . They would first have to showthey had developed
Of the whole of the
In other words , he 66 .
of multi- racialism that he forgets to think about the practical issues that face the Government. Of course , this was phenomenal because the Transkei Government has proved so successful in its administration that the eys of the world are now focussed on the Transkei . Development in the Transkei is unparalleled if it is to be compared with the independent states of the rest of Africa. The administration of our government departments has been in the hands of efficient officials and these officials are headed by the most efficient loaned secretaries . The organisation of our civil service as is revealed in the yearly reports of the Public Service Commission is so formidable that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has just nothing to criticize . In 1963 there were 1,252 civil servants in prescribed and non-prescribed posts of the Transkei Government. In 1969 there were 2,788 of these servants. Now, I am referring to the Transkeian citizens who are on the establishment of the government departments of the Transkei. Many of these civil servants have filled high posts in the ranks of our civil service . The number of teachers in 1964 was 4,955 ; in 1969 it was 6,887 . Suppose we did not attain selfgovernment, would it have been possible for these sons and daughteres of our land to obtain employment at home ? Even if the hon. member for Mount Fletcher had applied for a job in our Transkeian establishment, instead of remaining on the Reef, we should have employed him. Before 1964 the Transkeian citizens did not know how much was spent on their services , but in 1964 they knew that a specific amount had been voted towards their services and this amount was R16,568,583 . This figure rose in 1969 to R23 million plus. This year a record amount
sufficiently, but their development will not be limited. Mr. Haak said that even after independence Bantustans would remain closely tied economically to South Africa . " Now , this statement negates the conception of the Opposition that if a country is self-governing and independent it cannot be tied up economically with another country. " Mr. Haak further says that their best defence against Communism was economic viability and he said there is no such state and we are not prepared to consider hypothetical questions for that future state. He believed that the Government would be competent to deal with such a problem when it arises. " Now, in a specific interview after the meeting, Mr. Haak continued. When asked about autonomous Bantustans being allowed to have Communist parties , this is what he said: "If they are independent then they can decide for themselves. " But I want to make it clear to the hon. members across the floor that my Government will not act recklessly and will always act in the best interests of the Transkei . We know that the communists and their fellowtravellers who are across the floor are watching the day when we become independent in order to infiltrate into our country, hence they are always poking the Opposition from the back to instigate our Government to claim independence , even though we feel that the time is not ripe. I want to assure you that they and you will suffer frustration because you are dealing with a responsible Government. Now, reverting to the question of Transkeians seeking work in the Republic, I want to ask what has this to do with the Transkei self-government? The hon. members across the floor know very well that all the independent states of Africa have their major labour force employed in the Republic of South Africa . These countries are Malawi , Tanzania , Zambia, Lesotho , Swaziland , Botswana and what not. The attainment of independence in these countries has never been conditional on their capability to provide work for their citizens . This would be a ridiculous and impracticable condition. I want to show that this has been a stupid reasoning by all people who have shown opposition to the Transkei self-government. The Transkeian Government will always fulfil its duty and will always assist workseekers , assist inthe promotion of labour opportunities for the Transkeian citizens in the Transkei and outside the Transkei . In 1963 the Transkeian citizens on contract labour in the Republic numbered 99,523 while in 1969 this number increased to 174,223. Is this not a negation of the assertions put forward by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition that self-government should be attained only when a country is able to provide labour for all its citizens ? The labour position in the Transkei itself has , since self-government, im· proved. Today our Department of Agriculture and Forestry employs 8,740 labourers and the Department of Roads and Works employs 4,200 labourers . But in all countries the labour question is always a thorn to any government, but it is not anything that can militate against the establishment of a self-governing state . (Interjections ) Now, in his speech the hon . the Leader of the Opposition did not impeach the Government on its control of matters falling within its jurisdiction. He is so obsessed about this policy
of R26 million plus has been voted towards the services of the country . Before 1964 practically no schools were built by the Union Government or the Republican Government inthe Transkei , but since the establishment of the Transkeian Government several primary , secondary, vocational , high and training schools have been erected and stand as a monument to the commendable credit of my Government. But the hon. members across the floor are very ungrateful and cannot even appreciate the gesture that has been made by the Republican Government in voting these amounts . The salaries of the Transkei employees have been increased considerably from year to year, as will be shown in The very my budget speech this afternoon. salaries of the Legislative Assembly members many of whom fail to perform their duties as they should, have been increased considerably. (Interjections) Yes, you are big loafers , you merely come here to earn your money and go and sit on your laurels at home , doing nothing. Much financial assistance has been given to the farmers of the Transkei in terms ofthe farmers ' co-operative and ploughing credit schemes , but have the hon. members across the floor shown any appreciation? Have they ever thanked the Department of Agriculture or the Xhosa Development Corporation for all these schemes ? (Interjections ) Now , land formerly controlled by the South African Bantu Trust, twenty towns and villages of the Transkei have been transferred to and made open for occupation by Transkeian citizens respectively . The better
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have thrown mud at their faces . But what is intriguing this side of the House is to find that many of the hon. members across the floor have tried and have actually received assistance from this corporation , and I quote the hon. chief from Ngqeleni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , who was granted a loan by this corporation to open a shop ; and through the policy which has brought about this corporation, some of the members across the floor have actually taken advantage of purchasing properties in the towns . It is interesting to inform this House that in order to assist the fast taking over of Norwood, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition scrambled with the poor people to purchase several erven in that area. But the question to ask is: Suppose the policy had not been applied , could it have been possible for the hon. member to purchase these properties? Nay, all the hon. members across the floor are enjoying the fruits of the policy of separate development. These hypocrites are taking part in the activation of the policy of separate development. Mr. Chairman, they go to the people and say to the people : Here is honey - we are robbing the bees , but the bees sting so don't get too close . What cheats they are! The same hon. members have occasionally shown indignation to the Road Transportation Board for continuing to allow non- Transkeian citizens to run buses in the territory , claiming that this should be the monopoly of the Transkeian citizens . One of their lot attacked the Government for issuing a licence to a Coloured businessman in Flagstaff, claiming that Coloureds in terms of the policy should not be issued with licences. You know that man , he was formerly a member of this House and an outspoken protagonist of the policy of multiracialism . I need not tell this House that many of you are fellow- travelllers of the capitalists in this country. It is only when your businesses are hardpressed that you start thinking of the policy of separate development. (Interjections)
construction of roads has received no appreciation from the hon. members across the floor, but all reasonable people , excluding these frustrated 24 in front of us , appreciate what the Government is doing for them. The withdrawal of the Republican civil servants from the Transkeian administration has been proceeding steadily without disrupting the smooth running ofour departments. Now, these are matters we expect the Opposition to impeach the Government on, instead of claiming the moon. They could have attacked the Government when they found fault with its activities on these matters . When they did not find fault with the Government they found shelter behind wild attacks on the Republican Government, but unfortunately that Government could not defend itself in this Chamber . You have deliberately made this Chamber a forum of propagation of communist ideologies . You are agitating against the Republican Government on matters which have been handed over to you (Interjections) and, of course , we cannot blame you because you are carrying out the instructions of your instructor - a certain Mr. Ahrenstein, who said that the Transkeian Opposition would be the body to propagate communist ideas in South Africa. Several questions have been put by this House to the Opposition, and this is one of the specific questions that has been put to Now, I would like the hon. the Leader them . of the Opposition, instead of talking on platitudes , using all the flowery language on matters that are really irrelevant, to answer this question: Suppose you were the alternative Government, under what Constitution would you fall? Would you decide to repeal the present Constitution How would you and revert to Bunga days ? achieve your integration concept of life in South Africa? Please do reply to these questions , because you have made no reply. Now, reverting to the economic development of the Transkei , much criticism has been levelled against the Government for the alleged slow development Now, the of these territories economically. question to ask, hon. members across the floor , is : What are you doing to activate the Transkeian citizens to develop themselves economically? These people elected you with confidence , with the hope that you would try to raise their standard of living , but it is most amazing to notice that when you think of the economic development of the Transkei you think of....
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , hon. members , we would like that side of the House to tell us exactly what they would do if they were to take over the government . What we know is that these hon. gentlemen are desperate to take over power and apply the Transkei Constitution themselves , for if they were true in their convictions they should never have asserted themselves by being members of this House and actually implementing a policy with which they do not agree. Year after year they take all the trouble to spend moneys , some of them , and have their tyres almost out of action trying to win seats in order to come to this House , the pretext , of course , being that they want to criticize the Republican Government, but the people they represent want them to attend to their affairs . They waste their breath criticizing the Republican Government and for this at the end of the month they get a fat cheque of R100 . Is this not the worst kind of dishonesty that has ever been found in any community? None of these hon. members worry themselves about the affairs of their constituencies , but they will grumble that preference is given to other regions and not to theirs .
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Buying hotels . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
...you think of the
Transkei being developed by White capital . You are clamouring for the so - called White capital to come to the Transkei for development purposes . Have you ever analysed the Transkei proposition from the investor's point of view? · If the natural resources are not developed , thus creating raw material for labour , intensive industrial concerns and private investors will be shy to come to the Transkei. The investment field for private enterprise in the Transkei is open, but this will only be done under certain agency conditions . We have made this clear to your thick skulls . I have already said that the hon. members , instead of showing appreciation to the Xhosa Development Corporation in assisting African businessmen in the Transkei , 68.
to light that control is vested in this bank laregly in foreign shareholders . In other words , the profits that are made out of these investments are being exported to foreign countries . Now, I will give you figures in order to prove my case . These are the figures : The authorized capital of the Standard Bank as at 31st March , 1969 , was R50 million. Now, the issued capital was as follows : - 29,160,000 ordinary shares
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . There are two members talking at the back. They must please keep quiet. THE CHIEF MINISTER : But I want to ask the hon. members : Do you ever worry yourselves by approaching the various departments in order to get services that are required by the people to be rendered?
of R1 each, the issued capital was R29,160,000 ; there were 8 million 16 % cumulative preference shares which brought in R8 million. Now , that makes a total of R37,160,000 . Now , this is the share distribution : The Standard Bank Ltd. , London (take note of that) - R33,190,000 ; The Standard Bank Nominees (Pty) Ltd. in Johannesburg - R1,269,148 ; 2,652 individuals or bodies , not necessarily in South Africa , each holding less than 1 % of issued shares - R2,700,852 . Now, until the end of 1967 when 3 million shares were offered to the South African public , virtually all dividends were sent overseas. This amounted to R4,780,000 in 1966. Now as Volkskas has eminently suitable facilities in Umtata and its share capital is entirely South African , the Cabinet's choice fell on this bank after it was ascertained that all the cheques could be cashed in any bank in the Transkei or the Republic . Then an important statement was made by the Managing Director of this bank and the statement was to this effect - that it was the intention of Dr. Verwoerd to have this bank in the Transkei in order that it becomes a national bank of the Transkei . Now, I think I have replied sufficiently to the queries raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in so far as this question is concerned. Now, reverting to an allegation from an hon. member across the floor that economic development was centred around Emigrant Tembuland and Eastern Pondoland , I wish to refute the allegation with the contempt it deserves . On the 5th September , 1969 , an important announcement was made by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry for the development of Western Pondoland , contained in a white paper, that would cost R4,500,000 . These schemes would change the traditional way of life of the Pondo in that area , as this scheme was under way and was known as the Umgazi Irrigation Scheme . Now, it must be understood that development can never be carried out in a day. It takes several years because even the period of planning may take several years . As regards the question of credit ploughing which was launched by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry, I wonder if anybody took the hon. the Leader of the Opposition seriously when he said that the money spent by the Government on this scheme should not be recovered. This shows clearly that the hon. members across the floor would squander all the money that has been paid by the taxpayers in order that their services should be performed . It was made clear from the beginning that the ploughing for these Transkeian citizens could not be free, as money that has been collected from the taxpayers has got to be spent on public works . Now , reverting to the complaint of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition about the magistrates ' authority in the districts being undermined , before making this allegation I submit the hon. member should have studied the departmental organisation since
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Yes. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It will be interesting to tell this House that none of them have ever come to my department. Instead, they delight in obstructing the Government when the Government on its own wants to perform services for the people . For example , in Engcobo and Mqanduli the members representing those constituencies have advised the people to oppose the services that are rendered by the Government by way of soil reclamation and building of dams . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Name them. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is you. You go round the country telling them not to accept soil reclamation measures . That is what you do , but did the people elect you in order to preach such propaganda amongst them? I think you will have to learn what the duty of a representative of the people is in parliament. Now, coming to the reshuffle of my Cabinet , I wish to be understood that it is the duty , the prerogative of the Chief Minister or the Prime Minister to allocate responsibility for the control of the departments to his colleagues in the Cabinet. He never consults the Leader of the Opposition when he has to do so. However anxious my hon. friend is to be consulted on this matter , he must just forget about it. No government has ever consulted a leader of the Opposition before allocating portfolios to Cabinet Ministers . To say that the Minister of Justice is unfit to be in the Cabinet is the biggest joke of the year, and nobody can take those ridiculous assertions seriously. However, it exposes the hatred and contempt which the hon. members across the floor have on the Matanzima brothers . We are proud pecause it shows we are a power to Let me advise (Interjections) reckon with. Don't try to resort to witchcraft to get you : rid of us because Doubt failed. I want to assure the hon. members that as long as this Government is composed of its present members and also the predecessors of the former Government, so long shall the Opposition side of the Government suffer reduction at the polls . Now , coming to the attack of the hon. members on the decision of the Cabinet to bank its moneys with Volkskas, I would like to ask this question : Whether it is equitable for one banker to claim that it should have the monopoly of business indefinitely. Admittedly the Standard Bank is an efficient banker , but my Government considered this question carefully and decided that the Standard Bank had after all these years had its sufficient share of the business , and it was equitable to transfer the business to another bank, even though the services rendered by the Standard Bank were efficient. But I want to give the main reason for this . An investigation brought 69.
i the establishment of the Transkei Government. Under the Union of South Africa , and subsequently the Republican Government, the magistrates or Bantu Affairs Commissioners , as they were called, assumed the position of authority in all government matters in the districts. Since 1964 the post of Bantu Affairs Commissioner was abolished in the Transkei and the magistrates became the officers of the Department of Justice , but were used by the other departments as agents to perform services which could not be directly performed by those departments in the districts .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I know what time you are going to allow me to answer the voluminous questions which have been put to me and to reply to this debate , characterized by wisdom mixed with stupidity?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: May I put a question? Mr. Chairman, I would like to know who tries civil matters between African and African in the Transkei ?
THE CHAIRMAN : have sufficient time .
THE CHAIRMAN: Ithink you should carry on, hon. member, and reply. MR. GUZANA: My trouble is this - that I may leave some of the points , hoping I am still going to have more time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is anything to postpone the debate till next week if it is possible to do so , but I have to go on with the budget speech this afternoon, in order to give the hon. the Leader of the Opposition sufficient time to reply. I could not cut my address because I had to rub it in to their thick skulls .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : All the courts in the Transkei fall under the Department of Justice and the magistrates of the Transkei try those cases between African and African. MR. MGUDLWA :
I will see to it that you
Under what designation ?
( Laughter) Never mind the THE CHIEF MINISTER : designation. Whether they are chiefs or Bantu Affairs Commissioners is immaterial . I am dealing now with administration, not with the question of the courts . Now, in this departmental organisation all matters in the districts that could be performed by the officials of a particular department were handed over to that department, and these officials have the assistance of regional and tribal authorities . Now, I take it that the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition is so attached to the Republican Government that he would like us to follow everything which is being done in the Republic . Now, in conclusion I would like the hon. member to answer these questions which we have always put to him. The first one is : Does your party claim the whole of South Africa for the Black man? Now I know that your reply is going to be "No " , but I want you to give a specific reply. You claim this for both White and Black. Now, has the hon. member across the floor ever consulted the other racial groups on this question of the integration of races ? Does the hon. member want that this integrated society in South Africa should have one man, one vote ? If so, how will he go about it in order to implement his ideas ? And in your consultation, if any, with the other racial groups what is the modus operandi ? I want a reply to these questions because they are very, very important. Mr. Chairman, hon. members , finally I would request that this question of a multi- racial society in the Transkei should be discussed for the last time at this session, because it has nothing to do with our An Opposition is necessary in Constitution. order to impeach the Government on its failures on matters that fall within the scope of their jurisdiction. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, Ithink the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated to me that it is necessary for me to be given time to bury him.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are just playing with words now, both of you. MR. GUZANA : If I am to be given that time , may I have time to prepare my reply and adjourn now? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can carry on now. THE CHAIRMAN: hon. member.
I did not mean that.
You may carry on now,
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am finding it most difficult to understand the thinking of the Government side , particularly when I consider the fact that they talk at cross-purposes . I am surprised that today the hon. the Chief Minister seeks to throw criticism at the Leader of the Opposition and tries fainly to contradict the submissions made when this debate began, when only yesterday the hon. the Minister of Education told him what he thought of what had been said by the Opposition in this no confidence debate . Probably it is because the hon. the Chief Minister has no confidence in his members of the Cabinet. I think it is out of decorum that the hon. the Chief Minister should stand up to contradict another Minister of his Cabinet in public. Probably these are some of the finer things in democracy where there is no written word to guide the Chief Minister , where we can only say these things are not done that is all . It will be necessary, probably, at some stage in the future that our hon. Chief Minister should get a lecture on what the relationship should be between himself and the members of his Cabinet. But I must deal with his submission before I deal with the submissions of the other members of his party . The hon. the Chief
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear . THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to reply.
70.
of the people . And when you ask for independence , whom will you be representing ? Will you be representing the chiefs or the people ? Will you be expressing your own ideas or the ideas of the people ? This side of the House has a majority of elected members amongst its supporters so that the prevailing view on this side of the House is that of the people who have elected the members who support the Opposition , and they speak therefore with the voice of the people when they say your idea of independence is one of Never - never .
Minister has indicated that he was speaking to me specifically because I happened to be a historian. I grant you that. May I also remind you that you were also speaking to a constitutionalist. You have traced, Sir, the development of self-government for what is now the Republic of South Africa from probably one hundred years back, and you have indicated that in that development certain powers were constantly vested in the controlling government , and that governing bodies in the Colony graduated from the one stage into the next stage , into the next stage , until sovereign independence was granted to the Republic. Now, let us ask the question : Why was that possible ? The fundamental principle which has underlined the constitution of all governing bodies in a constitutionally developing state which is developing on democratic lines is that the members of those bodies are elected members. So you had the Volksraad which had elected members ; so you had the Cape Legislative Assembly which was made up wholly of elected members , so that the basic principle was that the governing body, if it is going to grow and develop until it has sovereign powers , is wholly elected. How are you going to equate what you consider will be the future development of this body with the development of those bodies whose members were wholly elected ? You have a body here, Sir , of 64 nominated members and 45 elected members , and are you going to equate the possible development of this body with the Are development of a wholly elected body? you going to equate a democratically constituted body with a body that is not democratically Is it not true that here we have constituted? the entrenchment of conservatism which is not going to allow for the development of a democratic system of government ? And chiefs will continue to be conservative and will not allow for a democratic development . I now ask where is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , as I want to be present during all the time that the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition is speaking, I will move the adjournment of the House until 2.15 p.m. when I will deliver the budget speech. I now move that this debate be adjourned until Monday morning. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION :
MR. GUZANA : May I make mention of this, Mr. Chairman , that there will have to be consultation as to the time when the debate will begin on Monday and I will consult with the hon. the Chief Minister . The debate on the motion of no confidence was adjourned . The Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION APPROPRIATION
BILL , 1970 READING
SECOND
BUDGET SPEECH - 1970 Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of this House : -
independence in that context? I ask how can this body speak on behalf of the people of the Transkei when its majority is nominated? How can this body, with a predominance of nominated members, say it is speaking with the voice of the people who send here only 45 elected members ? Can this Government, counting the heads amongst those who support it, say that the elected members are greater in number than the nominated members? I doubt very much if, on this basis ,
The Appropriation Bill for 1970 , which was read a first time some days ago , provides for a sum not exceeding R26,261,000 to be applied towards the services of the Transkei for the year. current financial This amount is R2,691,000 or 11.4% more than the sum voted last year and in delivering my budget statement I shall concentrate mainly on the reasons for this substantial increase .
there is a future for an ultimately democratic body in this House . THE CHIEF MINISTER : concept of democracy?
I second .
Now what is your
If we analyse the printed Estimates of Expenditure which I tabled a few days ago we find that an amount of R16,840,000 or 64% of the total estimated expenditure is required for the payment of salaries , wages , allowances , bonuses , social benefits etc. This figure represents an increase of R2,392,000 or 16.5% on the amount required for this purpose last year .
MR. GUZANA : I gave you the opportunity to speak . Please give me the opportunity to reply. My submission, and I submit this very strongly, is this : Are you going to say when We speak you say you want independence : for the people of the Transkei ? Are you going to say that because you are entrenched in your position by a constitutional entrenchment you can represent the views of the people of the Transkei? Can you say that you are obliged to the electorate ? Whatever the electorate thinks you will still come back to this House as chiefs , including the hon. the Chief Minister , and because you will enjoy that majority because of being chiefs you can legislate against the wishes
As you are aware , Mr. Chairman , I announced in February, 1970 , that the Cabinet had approved the upward revision of the remuneration of officers holding prescribed and non- prescribed posts on the fixed establishment of the Transkeian Government Service ( including the Transkeian Police Force ) and teachers , with effect from the 1st April , 1970 .
71 .
Provision for these concessions has accordingly been made in the Estimates for 1970/71 and a recurrent additional annual appropriation of approximately R878,000 will be required for this purpose . This figure is arrived at as follows : -
to time , in consultation with the Minister of Finance .
In the Republic the maximum pension payable to a beneficiary has been increased to R60 per annum as from 1st April, 1970 , and my colleague the Minister of Interior and I accordingly decided to bring benefits in the Transkei into line with those paid in the rest of the Republic.
(a) The key salary scale for officers and employees has been revised to provide for more favourable incremental progression and an amount of approximately R250,000 is required to ensure that all officers and employees holding prescribed and non-prescribed posts on the fixed establishment gain at least one full increment when their salaries are adjusted to notches on the new scale.
As from the 1st April , 1970 , the 78,000 registered pensioners in the Transkei will receive a bonus of R48 in addition to their maximum basic pension of R12 per annum , i.e. R60 per annum or R10 bi -monthly. The provision under sub-head F of Vote 4 has accordingly been increased by R1,047,000 to an all time record of R4,237,100 or nearly 200% more than the provision for our first year of self-government.
(b) Improvements in the salaries payable to teachers provide for an increase of approximately 15% to those teachers whose qualifactions are at least Std. VIII plus three years or Std . X plus one year recognised teacher training whilst for those teachers will lower qualifications the increase is approximately 10 %. This concession to teachers will cost the Government an additional sum of + R600,000 per annum .
Mr. Chairman , the additional sum of R1,925,000 which will come into circulation as a direct result of the increased salaries and pensions referred to above , together with the nearly R15 million which are to be paid out by way of normal salaries , allowances , bonuses , pensions etc. during the current financial year , should contribute towards improving the economic position of our community . Whether this aim can be achieved depends on how we handle the money which we have earned . If our people are going to waste their earnings and in particular the unexpected windfall which has befallen many of them with effect from 1st April , 1970 , on useless items , such as liquor , expensive cigarettes , luxuries etc. , then we can foreget about a community with a high economic position. So far there have been but few indications that our people with fairly good incomes are prepared to save some of their money and to invest profitably . There are , of course , exceptions but exceptions do not help to improve the general position.
(c) In the light of the increases granted to officers and teachers and as the salary for a Head of Department is now fixed at R4,500 p.a. (which is higher than the salary paid to a Cabinet Minister prior to 1st April , 1970 ) , the Cabinet decided that salaries for ministers and others in high public offices should also be increased with effect from 1st April, 1970 .
A recurrent amount of R28,000 is accordingly required to give effect to the Cabinet's resolution to increase :Ministers ' salaries by R800 per annum each; Paramount Chiefs ' salaries by R400 per annum each; Salaries of the members of the Legislative Assembly, chairman and other members of the Public Service Commission by R200 per annum each ; and the allowance payable to paramount Chiefs ' representatives by R34 each.
Thus I would like to advise our people and in particular our teachers and Government officials to set a good example and, if at all possible , to save part of their salaries regularly and to invest the money in the Bantu Investment Corporation , Post Office , Building Society or Menander spoke the truth when he a bank . said: "Blessed is the man who has both mind and money, for he employs the latter well " .
In addition to the aforementioned concessions I have pleasure in announcing that the allowances and bonuses payable to Social pensioners will also be increased considerably with effect from 1st April , 1970 .
Mr. Chairman , the estimates will of course be dealt with and discussed in detail in Committee of Supply and I shall therefore only refer briefly to some of the other sub-heads in respect of which the amounts requested this year differ appreciably from those voted last year and to new subheads which have been created this year .
At the end of March , 1969 , Transkeian pensioners were entitled to a maximum pension of R12 plus a bonus of R32.40 per annum , i.e. R44.40 p.a. or R7.40 every second month. Owing to a pension increase in the Republic this House , during its previous session , passed the Transkeian Pension Amendment Act which Act not only increased the bonus payable to a pensioner to a minimum of R35.40 per annum but also empowered the Minister of Interior to grant further increases , as required from time
Vote 1. As indicated in the footnote on page 4 of the Estimates , provision for the planning and development of new townships has been transferred to Vote 4. My Department will however still be responsible for assisting townships boards (when established ) financially in 72.
erection of the new administration building, in respect of which a tender for R1,439,000 has been accepted, is under way.
order to enable them to provide municipal services to the ratepayers and a new subhead has accordingly been created for this service . Amounts equal to the proceeds of erven sold in the Ibisi and Maluti townships will for example be paid over to the town boards concerned . 917 kee Votes 2 and 3 are self- explanatory and
Apart from the R131,000 required under item 1 of subhead K for the erection of primary school classrooms the Department of Roads and Works requires a further amount of R967,000 under subhead J for erecting twenty-eight primary, secondary, high and training schools , teachers ' training and other colleges etc. , for the Department of Education.
require no further elucidation at this stage . Subheads F and O under Vote 4 have already been referred to above . Members will observe that the provision under subhead J - Repatriation of Transkeian citizens - has been increased by R145,000 to R150,000 .
If the aforementioned two amounts are added to the sum of R7,783,000 to be voted under Vote 3 we find that a sum of R8,881,000 or 34% of the total estimated expenditure for 1970/71 will be applied towards the education of our sons and daughters .
This Assembly will be interested , Mr. Chairman, to know that new housing schemes are to be developed on the commonages around eleven towns in the Transkei . Houses will be erected with funds from the S.A. Bantu Trust and will be sold or leased to citizens . This scheme is mainly to provide accommodation for citizens wishing to be repatriated to the Transkei and who cannot be settled in the rural areas . It is hoped that in this way useful people will be drawn back to their Homeland and for this purpose R150,000 is requested on the Estimates from which to pay transport , maintenance and other expenses involved .
I come now, Mr. Chairman, to the revenue side and in this regard I wish to draw the attention of members to page 52 of the printed Estimates . The anticipated revenue of R2,000,000 from General tax is a rough estimate as the new scales of taxation and the P.A.Y.E. system provided for in the Transkei Taxation Act, 1969 , became effective only on the 1st March , 1970 , with the result that figures are not yet available for comparative purposes . Revenue from this source may even be more than the estimated figure as deduction orders for current and arrear tax consisting of a fixed amount may , in terms of section 15 ( 1 ) of the Act , be served on employers .
The amount provided under subhead M Relief of Distress - has been reduced to R250,000 as a good harvest was expected this year . Various districts have in the meantime reported that the position is deteriorating as a result of the drought conditions and heat waves experienced over the last month or two. Should the sum applied for prove to be inadequate I shall not hesitate to make further funds available by means of a Special Warrant and , if necessary, from the Development and Reserve Fund also .
Although revenue from our own sources is increasing steadily from year to year we are to a large extent still financially dependent upon the Republic . Apart from the normal annual grant the Republican Parliament has record additional appropriated a sum of
The nett increase of R1,004,000 under Vote 5 is mainly due to the fact that R1,200,000 of the amount required under subhead J.1 is earmarked for the planning and development of the Ncora Flats irrigation project. In this connection the attention of members is invited to the White Papaer which was tabled in this House in June last year and which provides inter alia for a 62,000 morgen feet dam on the Tsomo River, a smaller dam on the Qumanco River, main canal systems , a distribution system and access roads . The R15 million scheme which will be given out on contract , is expected to be completed by about 1978. The increase under item 2 of the same subhead is due to the fact that the rate at which domestic water points are supplied in rehabilitated areas is to be stepped up in order to promote reclamation · services .
R7,900,000 in terms of section 52(1 )(d) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , towards the services of the Transkei , which means that the total revenue to be received during the current financial year will be nearly R24 million or R3,600,000 more than last year . As mentioned before , the total estimated expenditure for 1970/71 amounts to the sum of R26,261,000 which means that expenditure will exceed revenue by approximately R2,317,000 . However , the actual balance of R3,500,000 in the Exchequer as at 31st March, 1969 , was R233,000 more than the estimated figure quoted in my budget statement last year . This increase together with an estimated saving on expenditure of R2,070,000 during the past financial year plus an estimated increase of R616,000 in revenue from own sources for the same year , means that the balance in the Transkeian Revenue Fund as at 31st March , 1970 , will be approximately R2,960,000 .
Vote 6 reflects a nett decrease of R12,000 and although the various services for which provision has been made require no elucidation at this stage I wish to point out that good progress is being made with the building programme . In Umtata the Technical College , which has already been opened , as well as the Transkei Government Garage will be completed within the near future whilst work in connection with the
If we
add to this the estimated revenue amounting to R23,944,000 we find that there should be an amount of R26,904,000 available in the Exchequer from which to meet the es73.
a democratic system of government, not a government which is loaded with nominated membership in its legislative body, and we must warn this Government that it is building up stresses and strains which resulted in the French Revolution in France , where we had the privileged class ignoring the wishes of the people; where a few fed on the fat of the land and ignored the majority , just as we have here a few feeding on the fat of separate development and ignoring the masses . Finally , the people made their wishes known in rather a drastic fashion and woe betide the government which asks for something which has not been asked for by the people it governs .
I am timated expenditure of R26,261,000 . therefore not only able to balance the budget comfortably for the current financial year but also able to allow for a surplus of approximately R643,000 to be carried forward to 1971/72 financial year . Mr. Chairman, I feel that this budget statement would, in the light of the once more very generous grants from the Republic, be incomplete without a word of sincere thanks to our friend and benefactor , the Government of the Republic. Since self-government was granted to the Transkei sufficient funds have yearly been made available to us by the Republican Government and I again wish to assure those responsible for this assistance that our funds will continue to be appropriated in the same responsible manner as in the past. Without this assistance the rapid progress which we see everywhere around us would never have been possible .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you not raise this matter in your election campaign?
MR. GUZANA: You will have to go to the people for a referendum on independence and when you go to the people you will have to leave the brandy bottles behind. (Laughter) You will have to keep your palm money in your pockets . You will have to stop telling the people that if they do not vote for independence they will not benefit from relief measures . You will have to stop driving away possible voters just because they are going to cast their vote for the Opposition.
I trust that the proposals for expenditure as contained in the printed Estimates for 1970/71 will meet with the approval of this Assembly. I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members for your attention and I now move that the Appropriation Bill for 1970 be read a second time . MR . Z.M. Chairman.
MABANDLA :
I
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has insulted this side of the House by saying they go to the people with bottles of brandy . He should withdraw that remark .
second, Mr.
The debate was adjourned .
THE CHAIRMAN: withdraw the remark?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 27th April , 1970.
Will the hon. member
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if that should not be said, then I shall withdraw. And thus we will then have an intelligent vote and even then you will have to allow the people to use symbols and not allow them to go into the ballot box without a knowledge of what they should do to complete their vote . The hon. the Chief Minister sought to criticize members of the Opposition who were allegedly supporters of separate development at some time or another. He addressed himself to several members of the Opposition who , he alleged, supported separate development some time or another in the distant past. We had verbatim reports read out to us of their utterances . Now , what does the Opposition have to do about something to which a reply was given as early as 1964 ? The hon. the Chief Minister sought to rehash the whole situation once again, and a quotation out of context can mean the very opposite to what was intended. May I point out to this House that the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland indicated in his speech from which the hon. the Chief Minister quoted that this tree would have to be pruned by us....
MONDAY, 27th APRIL, 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , at the last adjournment of this debate I was canvassing the fact that this Government can never speak and say it is speaking on behalf of the people of the Transkei , for we had shown how they have a majority of a nominated support in this House .... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And the elected? MR. GUZANA : .... and this nominated majority overwhelms their elected support. I think it is that majority which determines Government policy, unless the Government is going to tell us that that majority is a majority of ignorance, and we are assured , therefore , that they cannot speak on behalf of the people of the Transkei When we on the question of independence . contemplate a state that is going to be independent, we have in mind a country that will have
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What tree was that? Explain what the tree was. MR. GUZANA : ....and we are free to graft onto this tree . That is , that on a quince stem we can graft an orange branch , and the circum74.
stances surrounding the passing of this Constitution are well known both to the governing side and to the Opposition. There were alternative Constitutions in the hands of many members of this House who were then interested in the constitutional development, and we can quote members of the governing side who had constitutions or who were responsible for drafting those constitutions which were at variance with separate development. But this side of the House does not want to rehash these things because we do not want to dig in the garbage tin that stands outside the back door . We want to go through the front door . We look to the future which has promise , and so not look to the past which may have odious smells .
he instigated them to accept White leadership and accept White supremacy in South Africa . What an unfortunate statement from the hon. the Chief Minister , because when you point a finger at a man , the other three fingers are pointing at you. And thus you have White leadership leading you by the nose . Your own utterances stem from White leadership; your Estimates of Expenditure stem from White leadership. You and I agree that the White man will lead in South Africa for a long time to come.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : you.
MR. GUZANA : .... but I am honest enough to admit it and you are dishonest enough to You have seconded officials here to deny it. give you leadership.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you defending the hon. member for Ngqeleni ? MR. GUZANA : And what do you do if you sought the one thing and got the other? For the motivating factor was to secure a realisation of the African in the complex society of South Africa . Hon. members of the Government have said on previous occasions that they are going through Umtata to Cape Town. Why should we have those utterances if this is the end and Aren't we the goal of the governing side ? justified in accusing you of deception?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are officials and not Cabinet Ministers . The leaders are the Government. MR. GUZANA : Because they are your officials who are seconded to your Government they advise you, they direct you and thank God they are there to stop your excesses. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They are officials That is the same position in the Government. in the Republic .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : A federation of South African states could lead us to Cape Town.
MR. GUZANA: Unfortunately, sometimes you become obstreperous and do Cabinet reshuffles without regard to efficiency in the various departments affected , without regard to the Secretaries who are in those departments .
MR. GUZANA : So you still want to go to Cape Town? You still want representation in the Cape Town Parliament? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I say a federation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: leading.
MR. GUZANA : Will you please come over? Are you honest enough to say we are facing the road to Cape Town; that we have got the platform here to say how we would like South Africa to be governed ; that this Government has decided that this is the be -all and end -all of African aspiration in South Africa? And in the shadow of darkness and behind closed doors and round corners they will say, in effect: We want to get to Cape Town. And what do we have amongst the Government members who are allegedly supporting separate development today? I can count the names of men in this House on the governing side who came to this parliament in 1964 under the ticket of Paramount Chief Victor Poto's mandate. THE CHIEF MINISTER : separate development.
I don't agree with
It is because I am
MR. GUZANA: These officials who are trying to make the African a better man than they have been in the past are frustrated by your excesses . THE CHIEF MINISTER : leading.
That shows I am
MR. GUZANA : I think if I were in their position I would say when I get to my house: "Damn it, I don't know what is wrong with Kaizer these days . " (Laughter) So White leadership is a fact which we must accept. It is something that will go on for a considerable time in the future , and that leadership is intended to civilize and advance the Black man until he can share equally in the political and economic life of South Africa. Yours is a queer form of separate development and I ought to ask you whether you backed the Herstigte Nasionale Party or the Nasionale Party in the Republican elections . If you backed the Herstigtes the writing is on the wall .
The mandate was
MR. GUZANA : I can name the people who were with us at Corana . (Laughter) I can name the people who slinked away because they wanted to climb on the band -wagon and we know that whilst they are there in body they are with us in spirit and conviction. Can you claim that you have behind you a convinced majority that separate development is the right thing for the people in the Transkei ? It has been suggested here that the Leader of the Opposition misled the members of the Democratic Party and that
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I backed nothing. I have nothing to do with the South African elections . MR. GUZANA : If you backed the Nationalist Party the South African electorate has indicated
75.
Suddenly, on Friday, we are disabused of this idea. We are told that the XDC is an agent of separate development; that a Transkei citizen , irrespective of his political convictions , cannot go to the XDC and get a loan. Now we know that the XDC is a political organization which is financed by the Republican Government to implement economically the policy of separate development. Now we know that if we are opposed to the policy of separate development we should not go to the XDC to raise loans from it; that the shops which have been bought are bought in the name of separate development , not in the name of the Transkei citizen so that he should develop economically . If that were not so, why are members of the Opposition being castigated for raising loans with the XDC ? So now we can tell the electorate what the XDC stands for politically. Probably we shall not subscribe to your interpretation of the functions of the XDC and that the Transkei citizen will be encouraged by us to take advantage of the XDC .
how it is beginning to think. If you are accepting separate development you owe this House a duty to explain what type of separate development you are sponsoring. Two types of separate development have come out clearly in the general election of the Republic , and you cannot ride two horses at one and the same time .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I have my own type . It is time you told your MR. GUZANA : Do I back the Herstigtes or do I followers : Which is it? back the Nationalist Party? THE CHIEF MINISTER : have made it clear.
I back nobody.
I
MR. GUZANA : If you have made it clear then come and describe your own brand of separate development, because we have not had it. Let us know what your goal is . THE CHIEF MINISTER : I have told you - it is independence.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is wrong with you this morning ?
MR. GUZANA : Is it back to the days of tribalism ? Is it back to the Three Wise Men? Is it back to the " Ntlombe" and " Ntonjane"? You had better explain to these people what you Now, I was are aiming at. (Interjections) dealing with the question of White leadership and seeking to make you understand that once White leadership is withdrawn you will have chaos in the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER : leadership in the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA: If you regard it as a political organization which is financed by the Republican Government, probably you may have to revise your concept of what the XDC stands for. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not a political organization.
There is no White
MR . GUZANA : And remember that the XDC is a child of the BIC which was established long before 1964, and don't besmirch this commercial institution for political ends . To deal with zoning, our position has always been clear on the question of zoning . We have always contended that towns should be declared open to all racial groups , and I think there is an idiom that there are many ways of killing a cat. You make portions of towns available for purchase by Africans through zoning; we would have made them available by declaring the towns open .
You are ostensibly at the MR. GUZANA : head of the Transkei Government.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , that is Black leadership . There is no White leadership in the Transkei. MR. GUZANA : A moment of truth does sometimes come upon you. I need not discuss the matter further when you agree that you are ostensibly at the head . It has been suggested that separate development has brought advantages to the people of the Transkei , andthe Opposition is accused of reaping the fruits of separate development whilst castigating it. ( Interjections ) First of all , as I have said recently, we do not know what your brand of separate development is , but let me deal with the XDC benefits and zoning, because it has been suggested that we oppose separate development and yet get loans from the XDC ; it has been suggested that we oppose zoning and we buy in zoned areas . Now, let us begin with the XDC . I am afraid that the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How would you do Declare Johannesburg and Cape Town that? open?
MR . GUZANA : And incidentally, it is not your Government which does that. It is the Republican Government and you have told this House in your interjections that you do not deal with the Republican Government, you do not follow its policies at all. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Since there was a personal reference on this question of zoning directed to the Leader of the Opposition, may I comment just on that. It was suggested that I had elbowed out less able men to buy property in Norwood. It will please this House to know that this person who was less able than I am was none other than the hon. the Chief Minister . (Laughter) Probably he still feels aggrived because I beat him to the post. However, may I say that I deplore these personal attacks and I would like us to discuss the broader issues rather than single out individuals when we are dealing with
1 Opposition has always been labouring under an erroneous impression that the XDC is a body objectively intending to develop the economic state of the Transkei . The image has been created that the XDC is not politically aligned ; that it would have engaged in economic revival in the Transkei irrespective of the policy of the party in power; that its main objective was , since Native Reserves have been in the background of economic development in the Republic , they should be brought in in this development. 76.
Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Chief Minister took up cudgels on behalf of Volkskas Limited in order to justify the transfer of this Government's funds from the Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. to Volkskas . I only hope that the discussion of this matter is not going to be regarded as canvassing for the respective banks . If my information is correct, the Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. is a South African company with headquarters in Johannesburg, and that it has a South African board and therefore to regard it as a foreign company is to run away from the truth. It is a registered company , registered in South Africa with the Registrar of Companies .
a question of policy . It has been suggested that independence will bring full self-determination with complete sovereignty, and the hon. the Chief Minister quoted the hon. Mr. Haak as having stated that these independent Bantustan states could have Communism flourishing within their borders , and this was given as justification for independence - namely, that communists will flourish in these states or, to be fair to the hon. the Chief Minister , it may flourish without interference from the Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I merely quoted the statement to show that we shall be granted independence - that is all.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : shareholders .
MR. GUZANA : When I moved the motion of no confidence I asked the question: Are you not communists? And later on I said you are running the Transkei on the same pattern that Russia is being run. Now, the hon. the Chief Minister quotes to this House a statement which gives hope to the communists for ultimate control in Bantustans , and that is his reason for believing that independence will come to these Bantustans . Was it not reported in the newspapers that the Minister of Defence had indicated that if there should be any trouble or subversion in any Bantustans which have attained , or will be , independent, he would not hesitate to march in and quell that disturbance? THE CHIEF MINISTER :
But has foreign
MR. GUZANA : Now, the hon. the Chief Minister says it has foreign shareholders . The Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. is a subsidiary of the Standard Bank, Ltd. , London, and the shares of the Standard Bank Ltd. are quoted in the South African Stock Exchange , and these shares are available to South African citizens , South African investment companies , so that its shareholders constitute South Africans and investing bodies in South Africa as well as overseas . Volkskas Ltd. has its shares quoted in the Stock Exchange of South Africa and its shares are available both to South African and to overseas investors , so that it is incorrect to say that the Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. is a foreign bank.
Yes, that is right.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: quoted you figures .
MR. GUZANA : He does not say he would wait for an invitation from that Bantustan government. He would on his own decision march into it. The honourable Mr. Haak further said this is a hypothetical issue. He put an "if" to the statement - "if they are independent" - and that "if" is the operative word. The hon. the Chief Minister has quoted you figures of people who have been contracted in labour to go into the Republic to work, and he says the increased number of people who have had to go into labour contracts is a justification of his claim that the Transkei is advancing. In other words , the more the Transkei sends people out to work, the greater is the development economically of the Transkei . In other words , the more this Government is less able to provide employment in the Transkei , the more we can chalk up on the board that this wagon is moving on. My own view is that after seven years we still have to send more and more and more Transkeians out of the Transkei into the Republic .
Quote figures .
I
MR. GUZANA : As regards immovable property, the Standard Bank of South Africa has more immovable property situated within municipal areas than is owned by Volkskas Ltd. and therefore supports local authorities by way of rates and taxes much more than Volkskas does. In the Transkei in particular , where you have one Volkskas branch and several Standard Bank branches , the Standard Bank is going to contribute by way of rates and taxes to your Black towns much more than Volkskas will do. Furthermore , the Standard Bank is offering employment opportunities to Africans in the Transkei much more than are open at the present moment Now, the hon. the Chief under Volkskas . Minister asked me to quote figures . I will say that my figures are several years behind , but they are more or less indicative of the trend. Under the head " Capital and Unimpaired Reserve Fund" , inside the Republic and South West Africa the Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. has tied up R38 million and Volkskas has R19,730,126 . And to show you that the Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. is a South African company we find that it has no investments of that nature outside the Republic and outside South West Africa. The same applies in respect of Volkskas Ltd.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You said the Transkeians are not being employed . I was replying to your allegation. MR. GUZANA : This is a very telling comment on the inadequacy ofeconomic development in the Transkei , and that indeed , instead of alleviating the position of the African in the Transkei , conditions are becoming worse and worse as long as we have this undefined policy of separate development imposed upon us by this I just want to advise the hon. Government. the Chief Minister to keep away from figures if he is not able to interpret them correctly.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is the share distribution in respect of the Standard Bank ? Give us the share distribution. MR. GUZANA :
77 .
Now, investments in South
South African population of many racial groups . We have been asked whether we have consulted other racial groups on the question of integration. I shall substitute the word " multi - racialism " . We are not interested in integration , we are interested in multi- racialism which is a fact in South Africa.
African stock and Treasury bills by the Standard Bank were R96,473,906, and Volkskas R31,715,269. The value of bank premises between the two : For the Standard Bank it was over R27 million; for Volkskas just over R9 million. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Give us the figures as regards the distribution of shares.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : what is the position?
MR. GUZANA: The Standard Bank of South Africa Ltd. pays income tax on its dividends and , incidentally, it was President Paul Kruger's bank when in 1900 he deposited 40,000 pounds with the Standard Bank. In 1958 Mr. J.F.T. Naude , Minister of Finance , repudiated the implications which we are now having repeated to us, that the Standard Bank of South Africa is a foreign bank , so that the argument that this is a foreign bank controlled overseas is fallacious , because time may change the controlling interest to be in the hands of South African investing companies. I suggest, and I hold strongly, that this Government has transferred its account out of political reasons , and that has been done by a Government which has been nursed by the Standard Bank from time immemorial. The hon. the Chief Minister gave here an injunction that this should be the last time he hears of multiracialism , and I found that more than mentioning multi - racialism when he participated in this debate , his tongue constantly slipped into the word " integration" . Obviously after seven years of education from the Opposition he is not able to distinguish between multi- racialism and integration. This side of the House concedes the right of a race to keep its identity pure ; that any political philosophy which threatens that basic human right cannot find support; that at the present moment, while we are all raceconscious , integration is just a dream . Integration will be for the future for those who will have changed their attitude towards race . And so we say we want a multi - racial state and not an integrated state , where the identity of the racial group will be kept intact , but this shall not be used as an excuse for privilege for any particular race . Then the hon. the Chief Minister put a few questions to me . One was : Does your party claim the whole of South Africa for the Blacks ? You have the African in South Africa; you have the Coloured in South Africa; you have the Indian in South Africa ; you have the Chinese in South Africa; you have the Jews in South Africa; you have the English in South Africa ; you have the Afrikaner in South Africa . How can any one racial group claim exclusive possession of the Republic of South Africa to the exclusion of the other racial groups? THE CHIEF MINISTER : the whole of the Republic.
And in America
MR. GUZANA : I am speaking about South Africa. That is where you asked your question. You wanted it purely in regard to South Africa . THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want to know what is happening in America. MR. GUZANA : Well, you go to America and live there . Do I have to go to Mr. John Smith to find out what his ideas of multiracialism are when his child is growing up on the back of an African nanny? Why is it that the Whites of South Africa are positively seeking to have Xhosa or a Bantu language as part of the curriculum in their schools ? Why is it that Whites in the Transkei tell the nursemaids of their children to teach their children Xhosa? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Answer the question. Have you consulted them and what did they say? MR. GUZANA : Is there any need for consultation when the realities of the situation prove that South Africa will continue to be a multiracial country? He asks me : Have you consulted them ? I suppose he is not aware of the existence of legislation dealing with the interference in politics of the one race by a member of another race . I thought when this Government put up residences for our Cabinet Ministers that at least the hon. the Chief Minister would disabuse himself of the very localism which characterized his thinking when he was living in Qamata, but you don't seem to know what is happening next-door in South Africa . Hasn't the youth of South Africa given the Progressive Party a big vote? So we need not pick up our bags and travel in big black cars across the Kei River to seek consultation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Consult these who Just consult the local are in the Transkei. . views their us give Whites and MR . GUZANA : I need not consult them because they are with you now. We were asked whether the Opposition stands for one man , one vote. The trouble is that those who ask us these questions are afraid to say what their conviction is on the questions they ask . They are too cowardly to say what they feel because they have their eye on the chiefs . I reply to this question by stating that the hon . the Chief Minister is dishonest because if he thought there is need for a statement on the one man,
You say you want
MR. GUZANA: No amount of wishful thinking will drive the other racial groups out of South Africa, and we are here to stay, and we have as much right as any other racial group, just as the other racial groups have as much right to South Africa as we have . To ask the Opposition whether it wants the whole of South Africa for the Blacks is to ask a nonsensical question which does not apply to the realities of the
one vote principle , I should have had his statement and then he should have asked me what I say . But this side of the House is not afraid of shadows . I could very well challenge you to a political platform on this subject and we could discuss it in the presence of the voters on 78.
condition that the hall will not be the Qamata hall. (Laughter ) This side of the House sees one man, one vote as a thing of the future . It sees it as an ideal when everybody has a stake in the country in which , he lives. It is seen as something which can be realised only when we cease to have educated barbarians ; when man has moved away from the concept of tribalism and from the concept of.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are tribal people barbarians ? You are insulting the people. MR. GUZANA: ....when his concern is more for his neighbour than for himself; when he can exercise his vote intelligently without regard to self-benefit, then you will have one man, one vote . What do we have in the Transkei at the present moment with one man, one vote? An unintelligent vote , an uneducated vote , a vote which is cast for immediate benefits , a vote which is used with the prospect of filling the stomach immediately , and the greater issues of what the end will be are obliterated in the mind of the voter because we have not moved into that stage of development and civilization when we can enjoy one man, one vote, Now , Sir , many people have said the wagon of "apartheid " is rolling along with the Mayekisos on the wagon, with the Sobuzas on the wagon , but he forgot to say that the Cabinet Ministers are also on the wagon. (Laughter ) You cannot load this wagon too much, Sir , and this wagon cannot carry the whole of the population of the Transkei . Is it really advancement for the people of the Transkei if only a few are on this bandwagon and others have to shuffle and sit in the shade because the economic sun is burning them ? Is it the ultimate goal of this Government to benefit the few and not the majority ? I fear you are going to fail in the main and fundamental objectives which should be the aim of a government, and so we have a summer introduced by a single swallow. Now, Sir , it is still winter and the one swallow has not brought us the spring. I have speculated on the future and wondered whether the XDC will not one day tell Mayekiso to get off the bandwagon and tell Sobuza to get down too , and even tell the Rode Trading
AYES .
Company and Associates to get off the bandwagon. (Laughter ). Let me tell you something : The future is dark for the African in the Transkei so long as we have this Government. The Transkei citizen is hungry; the man in the street is begging for food; the able - bodied man wants to work but does not get work in the Transkei . The people are beginning to ask the question : What are we getting from this Government? They argue that things are getting worse rather than better; that the legislation which is restrictive receives prominence in spite of the existence of this Government, and why go and cast a vote because , as you cast a vote you perpetuate the circumstances that are making your life less and less bearable ? Mr. Chairman, I think I should stop at half- past and I cannot deal with all the wild statements which were made by members of the governing party , but I must tell this Government that when the people cry out and say " We are oppressed" , we shall indict them . When the people feel there is no more realisation in the Transkei they will have this Government to thank for it. Indeed they will say that whilst Rome was burning this Government was fiddling. You know that your Government is negating the very things which the people want. You know that as you raise your hands you are saying " No " to the demands of your tribesmen. I challenge your consciences to direct your voting and , remember , your responsibility is not only to the African in the Transkei but to all the racial groups living in South Africa . Thank you , Mr. Chairman. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear .
THE CHAIRMAN : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana , the member for Mqanduli , that this House has no confidence in the Government , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the member for Cofimvaba , Mr. G.M. Matanzima . I put the question that the words proposed in the amendment should be deleted . The words sought to be deleted were deleted by 61 votes to 25 after a division as follows : NOES.
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondomibini Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Babini Langa Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta
79 .
Mr. Sikake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Chief George M. Matanzima Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
Chief Godfrey Mafu Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
TOTAL : 25 . TELLERS : 1. L.L. MGUDLWA. 2. L.I. CEMANE.
TOTAL : 61 . TELLERS : 1. R.B. MSENGANA . 2. G.G. KUTU . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
The subtitution of the words proposed in the amendment was agreet to.
I second.
Agreed to . The motion, as amended , " That this House has full confidence in the Government" was put and carried . The
Assembly
adjourned
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I, right at the outset, throw a bouquet round the neck of the hon. the Chief Minister in that for probably the first time he has avoided using the budget speech as a vehicle for political propaganda . Implicitly, of course, the financial practices of a government seek to realise the political philosophy of that government, but I am glad to say that the hon. the Chief Minister has consciously avoided doing so in this particular speech . We shall deal with some of the principles which are involved in his budget speech seriatim. We welcome the improvement of salary scales for those employed by the Government and we hope that this improvement is going to be accompanied by a degree of dedication, honesty and integrity on the part of the civil servants employed by this Government. I mention this because if a government is going to succeed , its civil servants must be dedicated personnel . There is one matter which
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION APPROPRIATION BILL
: SECOND READING
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on Friday afternoon I moved the second reading of this bill and it was seconded. The moment I stood up to propose the adjournment of the House the Chairman said he had not yet put the motion to the House and he actually put it and I submit that that was irregular . He put it to the House as to whether the House agreed , and the House agreed . In view of that , Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now consider the second reading of the Chief Minister's Appropriation Bill .
80.
I would like to raise under this head and this relates to the abolition of the post of interpreter in the Transkei . My concern is over the fact that clerks employed in the various districts find themselves drawn in to do the work of an interpreter , work which is a full-time commitment, and this is an added item on their duty sheet to the ordinary normal work that the clerk has to perform daily in his office . Probably the motivating factor for the abolition of this post was that Xhosa being an official language in the Transkei , there would be no need for interpreters . At the present moment, however , and for some time in the future the services of an interpreter will always be required in our respective offices , especially when our lower courts are taken on appeal to the Supreme
to say whether there has been a 20%, 5% or 15% increase because the figures are arbitrary. One would have thought that the Government would have worked on a percentage basis so that the benefit is proportionate to the salary previously received. Then at last there has been an improvement in the pensions that are going to be paid to Transkeian pensioners . This has been a political cry since 1968: We are going to raise pensions . We are happy that this matter now is going to be put away in cold storage for a considerable time , but we ask: What is R10 in two months at this time of the century? Isn't that really pocket money? We urge this Government to further revise these pension grants in order to make the life of those who can no longer earn a living from their personal exertions a little less irksome. We would like to see our old people enjoy the evening of their lives because the Government makes it worth while. I was agreeably taken aback to find that a pensioner in the Republic was receiving something like R120 per month. He had six children to support. This was a specific case , however. May our Government seek to attain the financial strength to make it possible to increase grants to pensioners. If the injunction to become thrifty and to stop smoking and stop buying liquor is intended for the civil servants , why should we not have a rehabilitation officer to lecture these young boys who join the civil service? I think it should be the Government's responsibility to see that these young men who begin in the civil service should have someone to guide them as to what to do with their money. You see, up to matriculation class the parent has been allowing this young fellow R1 per month at the most as pocket money. He finds himself receiving about R60 and says : Good Lord, I am I say it is the responsibility of a rich man! the Government to look into this matter. Again, we have here mention of an increased amount of money made available to the Transkei Government by way of an additional grant of R7,900,000. Now, I think we should correctly say that over last year's additional grant there has been an increase of R3,150,000 . The impression created is that the Government of the Republic has not been progressively increasing its additional grant to this Government, and this side of the House adds its thanks to that of the hon. the Chief Minister to the Government ofthe Republic for these sums of money made available to get the African moving forward. You have indicated , Sir, that you have set aside an amount of R150,000 to assist repatriates by paying for their transport, maintenance and incidental expenses involved when they are returned to the Transkei from the Republic. We would be happy if this Government would help those who want to return not those who are forced to to this Transkei return to the Transkei , because that is the responsibility of the Republican Government and the Republican Government ought to meet the transport expenses , maintenance expenses and incidental expenses to move a man from Cape I submit it Town right into the Transkei . is not this Government's responsibility . You intend developing commonages and cutting them up into erven around eleven towns in the Transkei. You hope to get funds from the South African Bantu Trust to build houses for hire
Court or to the Native Appeal Court , where English is used as the language for recording proceedings. With the abolition of the post of interpreter we find that this Government has a number of civil servants who do not hold a matriculation certificate or an equivalent. These civil servants were interpreter- clerks , but now they are styled Clerks , Grade 2. They can progress in salary into the scale applicable to Grade 1 clerks , but they stop at the maximum of that grade and cannot move into the senior grade category. Now, this causes a lot of frustration for these men who were essential employees before the present set -up came into being, and they mark time for twelve , fourteen, sixteen years before retirement at the top notch grade of a senior clerk, and yet in the Republic Civil Service these men, although they do not hold the matric certificate , can move on to the salary scale of a senior grade clerk. These are the two points which I would like to commend to the Government for consideration. This will affect a very small number inthe civil service but I think it would be right and proper on principle to give them that financial benefit which would be theirs if they were allowed to proceed to the rank of a senior grade clerk. May I also suggest that the overlapping of salary scales should be a matter of concern for this Government, and that this Government should exercise its mind on reducing this overlap . Instead of being 50% it should be reduced to about 20 or 25%. Your civil servants , Sir , will receive these increments with both hands and as they say " Thank you" they will ask the question: Why not retrospective to the 1st April, 1969 , when the Republic civil servants began enjoying these scales ? Probably half a loaf of bread is better than no bread at all , and the hon. members of this House are grateful for the increased salaries which will be payable to them . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is not half a loaf it is a full loaf. -
MR. GUZANA: I have often wondered why the Government raises people's salaries shortly after it has brought in an income tax act. The Government gives you with one hand and takes away with the other. One gets the impression with these increases that the Government has not applied a principle but rather has made an arbitrary decision as to what to add on to the salaries of the people concerned . I am unable
81 .
the Transkei . I must ask the Government to be careful about one thing under this head. I know of a case where , when these poor people have come to receive their pay on the 20th or 21st, they have to leave behind for the headman and his henchmen each a sixpence . We want some supervision over this matter.
or for sale to African citizens . Now, I want to sound this warning bell before there has been any expenditure under this head. We do not want a Kwa Mashu in the Transkei . We are not enamoured with the monotony of structure which is typical of municipal locations in urban areas . There must be avariety of planning, a variety of structure in the buldings and also a variety of amenities made available . They should not all face north , or all face east, or all face west , or all face south . They should be planned artistically to make variety and to make the places attractive , as otherwise they will be regarded as ghettoes . In this regard, I think the first responsibility of this Government is to its civil servants . It has been brought to my notice that some of the clerks in Matatiele are living in tin shanties put up temporarily to meet a situation which could not be solved immediately. To my mind , that is inexcusable altogether, and the duty of this Government is to provide adequate and comfortable accommodation for its civil servants in every town or urban area. Then, Sir , we have seen an increase in the amount available for work to be done by this Government in the Transkei and there has been a progressive increase in the amount which the Government has had to divide up amongst the different departments . There is one point which worries me. This House votes certain sums of money for specific purposes , and these votes are submitted on estimates submitted to this House by the Government. At the end of the financial year one finds that that money has not been used for the purposes for which it was intended , and my question is : Are these estimates arbitrary? In the complete programme is this Government not aware of its limitations as regards the availability of artisans to do the job? In my view , I think we must vote money that can possibly be used within the period of twelve months from the time when it was voted. If we look at the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General for the year 1968/1969 , page 18 , we see this situation : This House voted an amount of R869,400 for major works Of on behalf of the Department of Education . that amount R590,620 was used and the excess amount left over and put back in the Treasury is R289,796 - we could almost say about a third to a quarter of the amount voted by this House for expenditure in respect of specific buildings to be put up. Why can we not estimate realistically, regard being had to our ability to put up buildings for which we estimate ? And this money is just kept there when it could have been used for other services . For instance , we voted an amount of R105,000 for the Nqamakwe
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Speak to that side .
MR. GUZANA : Don't say "this side " because I will name the man and you will know it is This is what is happening your supporter . these headmen are misappropriating the money in spite of the fact that these people have earned this money in order to have something to cook for themselves and their children. Then again, we would like the relief a little more realistic . What can you do with 25 cents a day? When I look at the liberally proportioned Government supporters , physically.... ( Laughter) If we were to buy meat for 25 cents I do not think even a dog would pick up a bone . Now, I suggest that we review this relief work and try to set aside more money for these people who do a job of work. They are not on the dole . They work on the roads , construct small dams , close up dongas , help to save our soil and to dam up water for our stock , and can't the Government be more sympathetic and increase the 25 cents to , let us say , 35 cents or 40 cents a day? As we put it in Xhosa , when you put your hand into the Treasury to make more funds available may your hand be warm , not cold, so that the people may say they are getting relief. We have not blamed this Government for the drought. Were we to do so we would be crediting them with supernatural powers . All we say is that it should positively meet the situation. I close with just a little incident which I want to relate in connection with relief work, to show you how many more do not find this help reaching them and have to resort to subterfuge and cunning in order to get a little bread . Last week my wife and I were in the car when someone came up to the window and said: "I have just come out of hospital . Will you give me 20 cents so that I can get home on the bus? I am too weak to travel on foot. " He was given 15 cents , but two minutes later I saw him making the same approach to a car behind me . ( Laughter) An hour later I saw him walking down York Road . Now, this is absolutely disgraceful , but what can a man do when he knows he has to go home and face a starving wife and starving children? Necessity is the soul of invention and his device worked admirably. Let us seek to eliminate such practices . This is not meant to lull the various Ministers of the Cabinet as to what the attitude of the Opposition will be when we deal with their respective votes . We have got our barbed wire whips to crack over their backs as soon as we deal with the different departments. By and large we can say we are grateful for the indications of a sense of responsibility
Blythswood School in the second stage of develWhy did opment, and not a cent was used. you estimate for that work if you did not have the men to effect the job? I think there are quite a number of other quite major financial commitments which require these moneys which are held up in exaggerated estimates . After all , if we have under- estimated , the Minister of Finance has powers to make calls on the Treasury. Let us not tie up moneys unless it is for things we know we can do within the next twelve months . I am glad the Government has decided to appropriate more funds than is shown in the Estimates for famine relief in
by this Government towards the people and that this Government is listening to the Opposition. (Laughter) If you carry on in that way you will find you have realised the objectives of the Opposition. 82.
MR. R.B. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to say we are happy with the Estimates placed before us . The budget has obviously been planned reasonably and it is a budget that shows the Government is not retreating, but progressing . We are pleased to note from the speech of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that they now recognize the Government and that they now realise there is no such thing as no confidence in the Government and that the Government is working well .
budget speech of the hon. the Chief Minister , which has been explained . We are thankful for the amount which is to be appropriated , namely R26,261,000 . In thanking the Government for this amount, it comes to us when we do nothing. I am thankful but I must say that though the amount is there for the services of the Transkei it is not real y sufficient to construct one single dam in the Republic. It shows an increase , but as people who have nothing we cannot do more than express thanks. Mention has been made of the saving of money by civil servants. That is a very , very important thing where a man saves part of his earnings for days when he is unable to do anything for himself, but one of the points to be remembered in regard to public servants (I am referring to teachers , clerks and the like ) is that they have a certain responsibility resting on their shoulder. Almost every public servant has a duty to a parent , a sister or brother who has to be sent to school and the money must come from his salary . His salary goes on the responsibilities I have mentioned , which he dare not forget lest the nation is destroyed, because people at home depend upon them while their wages are low. Mention has been made of irrigation schemes at Ncora and Qumanco . These things are important and we welcome them gladly. However , I want to give this advice to the Government : These streams in the Transkei , numerous as they are, must be made use of because these streams never dry up under any conditions , and agriculture as we know it today indicates that without irrigation it is a useless undertaking. This season crops originally promised to be quite fair , but in February and March an unprecedented drought prevailed, destroying all the crops which looked promising and this reduced us tothe same condition that existed last year the condition of famine. We shall ask the hon. the Chief Minister to give serious consideration to the question of the relief fund. He spoke of salary increases in respect of teachers and the police . We hope now that these increments will satisfy these people who have been complaining that here in the Transkei their salaries or wages are low. We also thank the Government for the rise in salaries of members of the Assembly and Cabinet Ministers , but the responsibility that rests upon the shoulders of these people must not be overlooked , especially we who live in the rural areas where it becomes necessary for us to go from place to place reporting back , and it sometimes happens that this amount is just sufficient to cover the expenses involved . Mention has been made of the construction of I can fearlessly state that primary schools . the position is very, very bad in regard to primary school buildings . They are a disgrace . It seems that the policy is to erect one school building in a district and leave a number of dilapidated buildings , and this is a complaint especially because people have been left with the impression that the Government is going to put up buildings and not the people themselves. That makes the position worse and worse in regard to schools . We ask the hon. the Chief Minister to look into this matter. There is also the question of school buildings that are merely half built and then abandoned . It should be the policy to see that these buildings are completed.
MR. GUZANA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to explain that the Opposition refrained from making any comments which could easily be interpreted as relating to the budget speech when we concluded the debate of no confidence today, and our reticence in this regard should not be regarded by the speaker as commendation from this side of the House to the Government. MR. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman , in regard to salary increments and income tax it must be clear to everyone that the Transkei state must have revenue for its services . Inthe main such revenue must come from those who receive I am taken aback by what the high salaries . hon. the Leader of the Opposition said when he claimed that amounts have to be left behind by social beneficiaries for the headmen. My experience is that these people go to receive these amounts themselves , not accompanied by the headman . MR. GUZANA :
No, I said for relief work.
MR. MSENGANA : Those are the people who go by themselves to receive payment. The ones who are accompanied by the headman are social beneficiaries . (Laughter ) We thank our Government for allowing these concessions to old age pensioners. It is quite obvious that as the Government grows older, so will these increments become bigger. Mr. Chairman , I do not think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has any idea of the wonderful benefits people have drawn from the relief fund and when, during this last month, they were disbanded they went in tears to the magistrate complaining of their plight. The people of the Transkei have seen a great difference in the last seven years between what they formerlygot and what they get today. Drought is caused by God and not by the Government. Much has been said in favour of these salary increments and I do not want to repeat what has been said. In perusing the Report of the Public Service Commission which has been tabled , we we see a great deal of money has been misappropriated by the clerks in the magistrates ' offices . Apart from greed , we may attribute this in some cases to hunger and that is why we hope the rises will decrease the number of these misappropriations. We thank the Government for its outward look in considering the plight of the under-paid, and we hope that the vote in the Department of Justice will progressively increase annually because a lot has to be done in that department .
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a few remarks on the 83.
as it has been said, it has been increased . I hope that in the amount to be appropriated he is not including the refunds for pensions , because the Transkei Government ordered that people should be members of the pension fund , which amounts would be refunded on discharge or resignation. My view is that whenever a man claims a refund of his pension contributions it takes anything up to six months , which means that anyone who left the service in January this year has not had that money refunded to him . In any case , we find that this appropriation is not sufficient, considering the lot of those teachers who should have been paid last year , but because the Government has evaded giving them what should be back pay, some of these have cause for complaint because their colleagues have had this amount refunded when they themselves have not. Let us go on to look at how the Government administers the relief fund. My experience shows that it is possible for a pensioner who is in receipt of a pension to go and benefit from the relief fund, and sometimes an entire such family goes out for this relief fund, something which was discovered recently by our magistrate. We urge the Government to see to it that this fund is for the benefit of deserving people. In regard to those who are social beneficiaries there is something which is practised, if not by the headmen themselves , then by the subheadmen. I am thinking of the case of an applicant for the old age pension who goes to the sub-headman to make application, but before the application even gets to the tribal authority this old woman is required to pay something. If she should succeed in giving this bribe to the sub-headman he just finishes what he is doing in the magistrate's office and goes out through doors unknown to the applicant. Because of the bribe the applicant is afraid of going to the magistrate and postpones his application for a pension to another date. I am also anxious about something which was mentioned by the hon. the Minister of Finance . I am speaking
These are the points I wished to raise and I wish to refer them to the Chief Minister . MR. Z.M. MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy to be able to speak today, particularly when I discover that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has withdrawn the heat from us . We had intended to train our guns on them and obliterate the Opposition in every move, but since the leader has been so cooperative we have decided to use only tear -gas . One important thing, Mr. Chairman , is that we must express our thanks to the Republican Government for being so generous in giving us the assistance it has given. There is a lot of ground that has been covered and progress is evident everywhere . Nobody can deny that since the inception of this Government a lot of improvements have been made throughout the Transkei. We have schools built and now we have the big sum of money which has been voted to education, which is the fundamental Now we can be sure thing for our children. that the Department of Education will be able to meet all its commitments. There are ever so many things that have been mentioned by the hon. the Minister of Finance in his speech, but the most important thing , to which I attach the greatest importance , is the vote for education. There is also the improvement in salary scales for teachers and civil servants and for all that we are very grateful. Also the pension fund - I must say something about the pension fund for It has come as a great gift to our people. the people indeed. I think most of the people will be glad and, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has said, they will accept it with both hands . There is also the question of erecting houses on commonages in the eleven towns That also is going to be of in the Transkei . great help to the people because many people have no place in the rural areas. Also , what the hon. the Chief Minister said concerning the advice to our young people to save their money is advice which they should take to heart. We know , of course , that it is insufficient to meet all the commitments of their families , but considering that money is very hard to come by, one who wants to save must start saving even a little every month. There is not much to say on this speech, particularly in view of the fact that everybody seems to have been agreed and he has been very generous indeed.
of economy which depends on starving other people. I mean the practice of getting rid of people who were about to receive promotion and then employing youngsters who must be started at the bottom of the ladder . The hon. the Minister of Finance then comes with a story that he has a substantial surplus. I have not many points to raise but I hope the ones I have mentioned will receive the consideration of the House and particularly of the Minister of Finance . I am reserving points on moneys squandered by these various departments and will not indict him for that, as there are others responsible for that and I will deal with them when we deal with the various departmental votes .
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am glad the hon. the Chief Minister has woken up so that he can listen to what I am saying . The hon. member who has just sat down is thankful for this short budget speech. He even made it clear that they had their guns ready, but because of the rise in • their salaries he is happy, especially because he was used to greater moneys. (Laughter) Now they will be able , from a small piece of cloth, to make a waistcoat. Coming now to the rise in salaries of the members of the Assembly and the Cabinet Ministers , we find here the old Bantu custom of those who were in charge of dividing the meat leaving the greater part of it for themselves . Whenyou compare the increases in the salaries of members and of the Cabinet Ministers , you will find a great disparity, but
CHIEF M. B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are merely playing marbles now because this speech is clear . It is only necessary to shake hands with the hon. the Minister of Finance over this year's record budget. That is seen from the mere fact that today we are shown how these moneys are appropriated in the Transkei - a thing which was formerly unknown. People who were in power before this Government never explained to us how these moneys were used . We just saw things happening. We would take into account those 84.
to drink ? Instead of putting up factories they put up Jabulani rondavels and hotels where drinking takes place . (Interjections ) Even those who have a lot of money inside this Assembly decide to put up hotels where liquor will be sold. instead of putting up something beneficial to the nation. On the one hand they say people must
small minds who want to criticize even when they can see the benefits . When we look at the Estimates of this Government since its inception we find that the moneys are being increased . In 1964 the expenditure was R12,465,000 ; the following year it rose to R15 million ; in 1966 it was R16 million. In 1967 the Government increased this amount to R17 million; in 1968 it rose to R18 million and in 1969 it was R21 million. Today it is just over R26 million. We are happy that we receive this amount from the Republican Government and not from overseas countries , because those powerful countries outside South Africa would attack this country because that is the habit of all sharks . They first want spheres of influence and yet their ultimate goal is imperialism . It is obvious , therefore , that the hon. the Minister of Finance is not prepared to sell this country .
stop drinking and on the other they put up advertisements for people to go to certain hotels to drink. We are thankful that repatriates from other parts of the country will have places established for them , but the Transkei Government should remember that these people will not live on air. They are not bicycles . ( Laughter) Employment opportunities must be offered . Another point which was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was the surplus moneys . He made it quite clear that this money should be put to some other use. I say this amount should have been earned by people who had been given work, if this had been provided . Able-
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if the hon. chief who has just sat down belonged to this side of the House I would say I am merely rising to polish his words , but as it is he belongs to the other side of the House and our views on the budget speech now before the House differ. I thought as a child of royalty he would be able to see what has not been done for the people in spite of this windfall . As I see it, the people who are doing the spadework for this Government have got nothing. It is true that before the last general election , merely to canvass votes the people were told they were going to get a rise of 5 cents a day, but that rise went to pay the indirect tax imposed by the Government. I would like the Government to see to the closing of the gap between the wages of the skilled workers and the labourers. Experts say that the reason why communism cannot thrive in Britain is because the gap between the skilled and unskilled labourer is not very great. Other people who are also employees of this Government are the chiefs who are not in this House , as well as headmen. To pass on, I want to say we are glad that after talking inside here for a long time about social benefits , these have at last been improved . (Interjections ) We are thankful to the Republican Government who heard our cry , and then gave a lead to the Transkei Government. The hon. the Chief Minister himself said in his speech that they were given the lead by the Republican Government whom they followed . The only other point which I again hope the Republican Government will see to is that these people should be given this amount monthly, because it very often happens that when these people go to receive these amounts and they have already incurred debts , they are told their cards have disappeared and they cannot be paid , which means such a person has two or four months to wait before he can get something to eat. A warning has been issued to the Transkei civil servants that they should not squander their salary on liquor. It is easy to speak, but to act is a different matter because it is difficult for us to warn these youngsters when some of the hon. members of this House encourage this drunkenness . (Interjections ) What is more , how can these youngsters escape drunkenness when the XDC encourages them to drink and tells them that the only way to improve a nation is
bodied people are going up and down the country wanting work, and they cannot get work, while money which was voted for a certain purpose is lying idle , doing nothing. A department which should have been given to a man of substance , dealing with tractors and other machinery has been given to a woman and they keep on changing portfolios . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I I wonder how the House feels about this debate , because it seems nothing new is being said? I think we should give the Minister an opportunity to reply. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not feel I am called upon to reply to the remarks by the hon. members of this House in connection with my second reading speech. I only want to reply to the observations made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in connection with the interpreter- clerks who have not matriculated . These clerks were transferred from the Republican Government to the Transkeian Government in 1963 and as a matter of concession , when the post of interpreter -clerk was abolished , they were given the rank of Grade 2 , in some cases with a personal salary equivalent to that of clerk , Grade 1 , in spite of the fact that they were not matriculated . I wish the hon. member could have given examples of these matriculated clerks who , in the Republic , have attained the post of senior grade . As far as I know, very few first grade clerks in the Republic have been promoted to the ranks of senior grade , and as far as I am aware there are no principal grades in the Republic who are Africans . Men who are supposed to be doing the work of assistant magistrate are clerks in the rank of senior grade. In any event , the Public Service Com-mission has got an open mind in so far as this matter is concerned , and they look forward to the department concerned to bring up this matter for consideration and they will be in a position to consider any reasonable proposals which can be put forward to that particular department. Now, coming to the criticism that has been levelled against the department under my charge by the hon. member for Willowvale , relative to funds that should have been made
85 .
available to pensioners . When a budget is prepared, it is prepared with the amount which is left over at the end of the financial year, and the amounts which are due to certain pensioners are not considered when that is being made, but those amounts are usually paid irrespective of the fact that they were not included in the budget. As I have said , Mr. Chairman, I do not feel constrained to reply to certain of the criticisms which were raised by the Opposition because it was all priase to the Minister of Finance . I hope that this second reading stage of the budget will be passed without any vote . In other words , I hope it will be unanimous , or the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will not be able to get his salary at the end of the month. ( Laughter)
ters were to be made I was not in a position to make this announcement, and I crave your indulgence to allow me to make an announcement. THE CHAIRMAN: Very well . Thank you, Mr. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Chairman. I have to inform the House that Chief Makosonke Sigcau has not been able to attend the sessions of this Assembly because of his illness . He is under doctor's observation and treatment here in Umtata . Also the hon. member for St. Mark's district , Mr. T.E. Tshunungwa, is indisposed .
QUESTIONS
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I now put the question that the bill be read a second time .
QUESTION NO. 1 : Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of Justice : "(a) How many Transkeian citizens possessed fire -arms in the Transkei before the Transkei Government took over ?
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What date for the committee of supply?
(b) Since the Government took over how many fire -arm licences were granted to Transkeian citizens by the Republican Government?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the committee stage will be on Wednesday , 29th April, 1970 .
(c) How been zens ment
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 28th April , 1970 .
many unlicenced fire -arms have confiscated from Transkeian citisince the advent of self governin the Transkei ?"
TUESDAY, 28th APRIL , 1970
REPLY : Prayers were read.
(a) I am unable to furnish the required information because it is not on record.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
(b) 147 fire-arms licences have been granted to Transkeian citizens since December , 1963 ,
ANNOUNCEMENTS
(c) 1,526 unlicensed firearms have been confiscated from Transkeian citizens since the Transkei attained self-government.
THE SECRETARY : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , at the moment an officer of the Accounts Branch sells meal tickets in the restaurant every day between 12.30 and 2.15 p.m. The Accountant would like to reduce the time spent on this work because of pressure of work in his branch. The matter was placed before the Committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements which agreed to the reduction of the time spent on this service . The officer made available by the Accounts Branch will now sell meal tickets from 12.45 to 1.15 p.m. The change will come into operation immediately.
MR . J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister , may he please also tell us how many people have been compensated in the event of their firearms being confiscated? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , arising from the arising question ( Laughter) I have to ask the hon. member to put his question in writing .
Members of the Assembly are reminded of the invitation by Mobil to attend a viewing and a presentation of agricultural and educational films at Abrahamskraal this afternoon. When the Assembly rises , buses will be available at the front entrance of the building to transport members who wish to proceed to Abrahamskraal .
QUESTION NO. 2 : Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Justice :"(a) How many bottle store and bar licences have been granted by the Government to Transkeian citizens since the 11th December, 1963 to date ?
THE CHAIRMAN : In connection with the time, it has been intimated to me that the buses will leave at 4 o'clock.
(b) How many applications for bottle store/ bar licences have been refused Transkeian citizens since the advent of the Transkei Government?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I regret that at the time announcements by Minis-
86 .
(d) What is the modus operandi in granting these licences ?"
QUESTION NO. 3: Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"What are the educational qualifications of the Principal Agricultural Officer , Mr. McGregor, of Engcobo?"
REPLY :(a) (i) In terms of Proclamation 117/1962 2 bottle store licences and 6 hotel licences were granted to citizens of the Transkei by the Minister of Bantu Administration since 11 December , 1963.
REPLY :If the member wishes to satisfy his personal curiosity, he can do so privately. The important point which he and the Assembly is entitled to know, is that the officer is suitably qualified otherwise he would not have been employed in that position.
(ii) In terms of the Transkei Liquor Act (Act No. 7 of 1967) the Transkeian Minister of Justice has authorised the issue of 6 bottle store licences .
QUESTION NO. 4 : Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education:"(a) What is the official pupil teacher ratio in primary schools in the Transkei ?
(c) If any such applications have been refused what were the grounds for such refusal in each case in (b) above ?
(b)
(i) In terms of Proclamation 117/1962 8 applications for bottle store licences and 5 for Bar licences were refused .
(b) What is the pupil teacher ratio in primary schools to date ? (c) If this pupil teacher ratio is over the official ratio what is the Department doing to remedy it?"
(ii) In terms of the Transkei Liquor Act 8 applications were refused.
REPLY : (a) The Official ratio is -
(and (c) & (d) (i) Applications in terms of the TransDu kei Liquor Act are considered by a statutory board consisting of three members and all meetings of such board are open to the public and are only held after due notice in the press and the Official Gazette .
Sub A to Std . IV - 50 : 1 . Std. V to Std. VI 44 : 1 . (b) The overall ratio is 58.04 : 1 . (c) The Department is alleviating the position by creating extra teaching posts annually. In 1963 the ratio was 69 : 1 .
(ii) Each case is considered on its own merits and factors such as the following are taken into consideration:-
The only means whereby the matter could be adjusted overnight would be to limit admissions .
The character of the applicant ; The situation ofthe premises concerned The situation of existing liquor distribution points in the area; and Whether public demand justifies the establishment of an additional liquor distribution point.
QUESTION NO. 5: Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Chief Minister : "(a) How many motions that were unanimously passed by this Assembly during the last session have been approved by the Republican Government? (b) Why are honourable members of the Assembly not apprised of such approved motions as is the case with the Acts of this Assembly that have been assented to by the State President?"
(iii) It would be a formidable task to furnish reasons as to why each of these applications were refused but it will , with hardly any exception, be found to have been due to one of the following reasons :-
REPLY : (a) None . Motions adopted by this Assembly do not need to be approved by the Republican Government at all.
insufficient public demand ; not in the public interest ; too close to other hotels or bottle stores ; or that the situation of the site was not acceptable .
(b) It is apparent that the honourable member's mind is completely confused . There is a vast difference between
(i) motions introduced by private mem-bers and which are in terms of our rules "not mandatory but merely a recommendation for consideration by the (Transkeian) Government " , and
(iv) Although I have nothing to do with the granting of licences in terms of Proclamation 117/1962 I think I can safely say that the provisions of paragraphs (ii) and (iii ) above similarly apply to such applications . 87 .
REPLY :(a) (i) Three. (ii) No such course is offered in the training schools . (iii ) Falls away .
(ii) an Act of the Legislative Assembly which in terms of our Constitution requires the assent of the State President before such an Act becomes law. (c) For the information of the honourable member I may add , however , that where the Cabinet in appropriate cases refers a motion to the Republican Government this House is apprised of the outcome thereof once such a matter is finalized . In this connection please see page 185 of the Hansard for 1969.
(b)
QUESTION NO. 8 : Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Justice : "What progress can the Minister report on the motion indexed as No. 4 in last year's proceedings and which was unanimously carried , viz. , Replacement of reference books with identity cards ?"
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. the Chief Minister , I would ask the hon. Minister to withdraw the words he used to the effect that I was confused.
REPLY : No further action was taken as the Cabinet felt that in view of the fact that legislation in this connection was being considered by the Republican Government no good purpose would be served by such action.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think the information supplied to the House by the hon. the Chief Minister is altogether correct. If his answer to Question 5 (a ) is " None " , then there is a question mark to that because a motion by the hon. member for Lusikisiki , dealing with firearms to chiefs and headmen and approved law-abiding citizens of the Transkei was passed unanimously by the Chamber. I wish he would revise his reply.
QUESTION NO. 9 : Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) How many Trading Stations , shops , Eating Houses , Hawkers ' licences were there in Qumbu District in 1964?
QUESTION NO. 6: Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of the Interior:"Why is the Transkei Government not subsidising the purchase price of the imported maize for the Transkei ?"
(b) How many Trading stations , shops , Eatare ing Houses , Hawkers ' licences there to date ? (c) How many such licences are on the Application list to date?
REPLY : Maize subsidisation is not considered a selective relief measure and the Government is satisfied that under present circumstances the existing relief schemes in the Transkei are more equitable .
(d) What is the government doing to prevent over -trading in the District? (e) If not, why not?"
REPLY : (a ) (i) (ii) (iii ) (iv)
QUESTION NO. 7: Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Education :"(a) (i) How many teacher-training schools for both male and female student teachers are there in the Transkei regions?
(b)
(ii ) Are there any African teachers responsible for the teaching of school method and organization in these schools ?
(i) (ii) (iii) (iv)
Trading Stations - 14 Shops (on residential sites) - 3 Eating Houses - 5 Hawkers NIL . Trading Stations - 16 Shops (on residential sites) - 7 Eating Houses - 11 Hawker's licences - 1.
(c) One Trading Site only. (d) Every application for a licence is considered on its merits having regard to the fact whether or not there is scope for another business of that kind. In determining whether there is cope my department takes into account such factors as:
(iii ) What percentage do they make of the teachers responsible for this subject?
(b)
( i ) This is a matter for the Department of Roads and Works . (ii) As in (b) ( i) above .
(i ) Are there any new secondary schools under construction this year?
(i ) the population that will support the new business ;
(ii ) If there be any, in what region or secondary such are regions schools ?"
(ii) the distance between the business applied for and other businesses in that area ;
88 .
(iii) the topography of the area concerned etc.
The Transkei , in order to progress and develop , must have additional land so that there will be more agricultural produce. When these
(e) Falls away.
districts were taken away some land remained over in localities such as Maxongo and Mzwazwa . By about 1954 these people were turned out of Maxongo as a result of a proclamation, and the Secretary of the Assembly is one of the people in that movement . Recently , about three years ago, those who remained in Mzwazwa were turned out and the farms taken over. I wish to remind the hon. members that in 1936 when legislation was being considered to see that the Native people were removed from the voters ' roll , a meeting of the All - Africa Convention was held in Queenstown and delegates were elected to interview General Hertzog in connection with this matter. The delegates were given instructions to oppose any move striking the Native people off the common roll , but General Hertzog posed this question: "Are you going to eat or live on the vote ? Forget about the vote - I am going to give you 7 million morgen of land on which you will live . " The Transkei has not enjoyed any fulfilment of this promise . There is a tendency on the part of some of the hon. members to think that when a motion is brought into this House in connection with some part of the country it is just a dream , but it is necessary for people to read the records before they criticize .
INCLUSION OF CERTAIN DISTRICTS IN THE TRANSKEI MR . R.B. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving this motion I wish to make a small amendment in the first line by adding the word " Proper" after the word " Kaffraria" . I move accordingly: - " That whereas the Transkeian Territories , formerly known as Kaffraria proper , including the districts of Elliot, Maclear , Matatiele , Mt. Currie , Umzimkulu and Port St. Johns , and whereas the Transkeian Territorial Recess Committee appointed to consider the constitutional proposals for self-governement proposed that these districts be wholly included in the Transkei , in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of having the aforesaid districts included in the Transkei and of approaching the Government of the Republic to declare the districts named above as a whole as falling within the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. " Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this motion demands additional land for the Transkei. It seeks to claim the land which was part of the Transkei formerly and was taken away by force by the White people . If you peruse the Blue Book for 1885 you will find there that there is no doubt that these districts were part of the Transkei . To confirm to the members and assure them there was quite a lot of land which the Transkei was robbed of, I will quote from this Blue Book: "The Chief Magistracy of Tembuland covers an area of about 4,055 square miles. It is an irregularly shaped block of ground, half encircling the Transkeian Chief Magistracy, and extending from the Drankensberg to the sea. It occupies the space between the Transkeian Chief Magistracy, the Divisions of Queenstown, Wodehouse and Barkly, GriquaMr. Chairman, land East and Pondoland. " there is overcrowding in the Transkei and there has been a complaint in this Assembly in connection with labourers who are sent away to labour centres such as Cape Town , Johannesburg and the farms . One of the causes of that position If we is the overcrowding in our country. consider Umtata , Engcobo , Nqamakwe , Cala , we find in some cases that people have been given sites which have no land. (Interjections)
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, will the speaker tell us what reply the delegates made to General Hertzog .
MR. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman , the delegates accepted the offer of additional land. It is necessary to read the records in these matters . I do not wish to speak disparagingly about any member , but I am certain there are hon. members who do not even know there is a map of Kaffraria Proper which was changed, and I wish to make it known that I have such a map, and here it is . One hon. member remarks it is an old map and that is why it is not known, but it should be old because it is dated 1885. I would like hon. members to note that we are not claiming land which never belonged to us . We are claiming land that was once ours . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members must please keep quiet whilst the hon. member is speaking. MR. MSENGANA : The Republican Government has given us self-government and in the Transkei that government should see what difficulties we are facing in the Transkei . A selfsupporting nation can easily gain independence . I will be surprised if any member opposes any move which seeks to give people food. I will liken anyone who opposes this motion to a person who enjoys honey and while he is robbing the hives he tells other people not to get close because the bees will sting him.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MSENGANA : This has come about as · a result of survey . Now, if you consider that position you will find it will be difficult for the Transkei to support itself economically on what it produces because we find in those districts that those who have sites but no arable allotments are greater in number than those vith arable allotments . They are thus placed in a position where they cannot support themselves except by sharing the land belonging to the arable allotment holders . That means that agricultural produce is reduced in the Transkei.
CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman , I second the motion . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to move that the 89 .
less in number occupy a far larger portion of the country . As it is, it is expected that the next population census will pass the previous total by about 22% . It is stated that the African labourers receive small wages because they have the right to the use of the land .
motion be amended by the deletion of all the words after " advisability of" and the substitution therefor of the words : "extending property rights of Africans to the districts of Elliot , Maclear , Matatiele , Mount Currie , Umzimkulu , Port St. John's and other districts of the Republic and in so doing approach the Republican Government with a view to having it recognize these rights . "
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you accept the policy of separate development today? In rehabilitated areas CHIEF NDAMASE : particularly, however , people are given small lands. The hon. the Chief Minister will say I am in agreement with their policy , but what I do admit is that the Black people have been given insufficient land and they are not satisfied . Even when these people go to the urban areas they are told to go back to the rural areas so as to come and be placed in these small areas . Sir, we want more land ....
Mr. Chairman, it is quite evident that the land apportioned to the Black people is insufficient, so much so that the Government made arrangements as early as 1936 that land should be bought for the Black people . As the mover of this motion has already stated , the Government was prepared to have a portion of about 7 million morgen of land given to them . What the mover of this motion has stated was brought before this House the year before last and during the session of this House last year there was a reply. Amongst other things in that reply it was stated : "It must be realised that continued representation to have these districts of Elliot, Maclear , Mount Currie , and certain portions of the districts of Port St. John's and Matatiele included in the Transkei as defined in the Transkei Constitution will only tend to disturb good existing relations and to give rise to political campaigns over matters which have been settled over many years by history. "
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Come over.
Hear, hear .
CHIEF NDAMASE : .... but not as this motion stands , as it applies for only a small portion of land. We say people should be entitled to be given land even in places occupied by the White people . MR. G.G. KUTU: the amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I second
CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the speaker who has just spoken is a descendant of Faku and I wonder what the reactions of his grandfather would be if he could hear him now, because he is now running away from practical issues and hiding behind a vague political jungle . He is not a fit and proper person to say what he has said today because the reason why we are asking for this additional land is because of his own action in going up to Pretoria. He went to Pretoria to go and twist and distort matters there and he returned via Queenstown. He has mentioned good relations and I do not know what point he is driving at because I think his idea is to sell us , because we are being denied this land because of a few votes . He told us of Faku's land stretching from Umzimkulu to where he is at present, and we are not here to help Pondos if they are cowards who are running away from the Zulus or Bacas . (Laughter) Don't take a wrong attitude in this matter because people in the Transkei want more land. You have long been howling and saying the land is too small and you have even gone so far as to say there will be a population explosion, but you yourselves have now forgotten what you said only yesterday. The hon. member for Emigrant Tembuland, Mr. Msengana , was right because it is a long time since we have been promised this land , but we can never get this land because those in authority understand that we are divided in this House on this issue. That is why the Minister of Bantu Administration last year , the day after this discussion, declared that we would never get this land. He is a man like you. Think, the members are Black and will never turn White and become Europeans . They value land and these things naturally go together.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, may I put a question? I would like to know whether the hon. member agrees with that reply. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, when the hon. member stood up I told him I was going to put matters right for him. I was still saying that it caused one to wonder why we should have received such a reply when a person makes a request, and that it should have been said it will infringe on good relationships among the people when people were asking for what was their right. It will be noted that according to my amendment we are trying to make this request on broader lines in order that the Government should have the alternative ofgiving us other districts if any difficulties arise in regard to these particular districts asked for in the motion. To give an example , the land which belonged to Faku extended to the Umzimkulu area but we note now that it extends only as far as Umtamvuna. In so far as the land between Umzimkulu and Umtamvuna is concerned, probably the Government will give us some extension if we are refused the districts which are claimed. That is the truth. Even the present Government will admit that the Black people have not enough land in South Africa. At some other time it was well known that the Black people owned only 13% of the land in South Africa , although I do not know what present statistics indicate . How can people make a living in such a small area ? Mr. Chairman, the White population in the urban and rural areas of South Africa is smaller than the total population of the Black people in the The Transkei covers only 16,000 Transkei . square miles and yet the Europeans who are 90.
generation to come will build on it? Why must we entertain any fears of saying one word with one breath and asking for all we want?
The dogs must stop barking at the light. ( Laughter) There is plenty of land in the Republic and we are greater in numbers than the White people. The land adjoining the Transkei could be given to us by the Republican Government. I do not think that would do any harm to those in authority, because in any case it would be assisting what we have met about in this Assembly. Don't start barking at us when we are claiming back land belonging to Ngqungqushe and Faku , because if you look at the map shown to you by the hon. Mr. Msengana you will see it is dated 1885. To me, a person who has been to these places while you have not , I know there are not even boundaries here dividing these lands . You think this is impossible , but it has happened in the case of our area where You will never some land was given to us . remedy the selfishness of the Whites , because as we proceed in the Umzimkulu district towards Durban you will find it was only greed on the part of the people who were in power then. This land we should be given was made part of Natal , where you see businesses belonging to such people as Mahomed. What reasonable person will say he does not want land ? Let me give you a warning before I sit down. You are in danger. A member from Maluti who moved a similar amendment in this House is no longer a member of this House because he rejected the motion and the people said : Why does he talk like this when the Tembus want to get more land for us ? That shows how eager people are to get more land. I do not know what nonsense the next speaker is going to say. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : the words instead of adding?
Why delete
MR. KUTU : We want to have the right to own land even if it goes as far as the Vaal River. We know that the graves of our fathers are where these towns and cities are situated . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. KUTU: It is for that reason we cannot say we don't want this , but we even want more land. We can go even as far as the Limpopo River. Those are the lands we want. ( Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are not serious . You are wasting time .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman , the hon . the Chief Minister says that I am only giving trouble , but what I have stated is only intended to ask for land. This is what I say in support of the amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 p.m. The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the amendment. We shall be very sorry if people do not understand what the Opposition is driving at. There is not a single reasonable person, whether he be a member of the House or someone in the street, who does not want land . We know well that land is something towards the maintenance of people. What we say is that we should be given additional land to that mentioned in the motion. We do not object to the granting of the six districts mentioned , but we want more than that. Usually when you send a child to ask for sugar from some other kraal you tell him to ask for a teaspoonful of sugar , and yet you don't mean the exact teaspoon you use when you put sugar into your teacup . You ask so that all the inmates of your home should have enough sugar . Even the Bible says : Ask and it shall be given to you " and when you do ask you expect to get more . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : ment does not say that.
INCLUSION OF CERTAIN DISTRICTS IN THE TRANSKEI The debate was resumed .
MR . A. XELO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up in support of the motion that we be given these districts and that they should form part of the Transkei which has been given to us by the Republic . Land is a means of livelihood and that is why the Xhosas fought in nine wars . Then the land was taken away from the races of South Africa by the White man, but through God's mercy the Republic was born which today has given us our own land and parliament . We have a grievance as a result of British imperialism because our people have nowhere to live and they are poor. That is why we are moving this motion , so that our people may be saved from the plight of dying from starvation. Now we have a government founded on chieftainship which was given to us by the Almighty. We will not rest because no matter how rich you may be . if you are landless you are nothing. I am calling on the Government and I hope the Government will not be long in asking for the 72 million morgen of land which was promised to us. I am not surprised that there is opposition because the people even opposed Moses . We should be unanimous when we consider our poor people who are wandering and landless . If there is anything we should get together over it is land , so that we may work for the benefit of these
The amend-
MR. KUTU: We ask that we should be given more land in South Africa. We do not press just for land on the borders of the Transkei . The last speaker , the small chief from Qamata who has recently been installed , toid the truth when he said our land was taken away from us. How can we object to the granting of those lands? Who will ask for such land if we do not press for it ? Did I not hear it said once in this House that this is merely a foundation and the
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poor people who are landless . lengthy , Mr. Chairman .
I will not be
OPPOSITION MEMBER : He did not say that. CHIEF JOZANA : I thank you . If he did not say so then he should withdraw his amendment. Mr. Chairman, we want these lands . Our forefathers fought for these lands . What a disgrace to see us sitting together , and we are chiefs ! In those areas you find one White person with a large area of land, and yet he has not fought a single battle . We are full of wounds and there should not be only one White man who has a land bigger than mine and larger than the land occupied by these Pondos . Ican almost understand how my chief thinks about this , but he knows the large farms occupied by White farmers . They are not even ten in number , the men who own such large lands . I think we should agree on this issue and let the Republican Government not hear that there has been some disagreement . I do not see anything further to be said, but I think now that I have spoken we will come to an agreement over this.
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. B. LANGA: members , I do not know what this contention is about, because the motion that has been moved by the hon. Mr. Msengana is quite clear. I would say that the hon. member for Ngqeleni just reacted hastily in putting forward this amendment which is unnecessary. I will therefore ask all present to listen carefully to what The districts to which I am going to say. reference has been made are districts in the Transkei . My hon. chief, Mtet'uvumile , is just a child, and he said that the Pondos fled before the armies of Tshaka and Dingaan. He has never gone up with his army from Tembuland to Pondoland to assist the Pondos . What we press for is the increase of land according to the motion moved by the hon. Mr. Msengana. (Interjections) we are here to represent the people and I would not listen to these irresponsible children . I will say what I want to say. As far as I am concerned I think
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are here considering a motion which has been brought before the House by a member of the governing side , a motion which requires that we should be granted the districts of Elliot, Maclear , Matatiele , Mount Currie , Umzimkulu and Port St. John's . We discussed this motion in 1968 and we held to one question to which we still hold. An amendment was proposed which sought to acquire these particular districts and also lands in the Republic, and the same rights to be enjoyed by White and Black alike . We have a claim to each square foot of land occupied by the Republic. There is a misleading statement which has often been made by the governing side , which says the reason why we are not granted our request is because we are not unanimous . That statement misleads people who are ignorant of what is going on. It misleads people because they say if it is said the motion will not be successful if we cannot agree among ourselves , how is it that the paramount chieftainship of Emigrant Tembuland received consideration? It is for the same reason I say this motion cannot be unsuccessful only because there are a few people who oppose it. This is all done in order to confuse people so that they do not understand what is being done. I see no reason why we should continue discussing this except that people should know our stand , and that is , that we want the lands you have claimed as well as the other land .
we should first acquire the land which we are given before claiming other land, because when we have been sent by people to represent them we must be thoughtful . I am not in any way saying anything against the hon. member who moved an amendment because that is how he sees matters , but I think we are all agreed with what the mover of the motion said. Why should an amendment be introduced before we acquire what we are asking for?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear .
MR. LANGA : We must first get these lands and after we have been granted these lands then we can claim other lands . I will not speak just wanted to give a warnat length because ing to you that you are no longer babies , but grown-up people . I address this both to the Government side and to the Opposition. I support the motion, because this motion aims at getting something which can be asked for by anyone . I would like to tell the hon. Mr. Xelo not to tell us about the installation of chiefs because that is not to be done here . We know that the chiefs have been given to us by God and nothing can go right without the chiefs . CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when a matter of this nature is being discussed , only the senior members should stand up. I am very pleased to stand up after the last speaker and I think after I have spoken we will all be agreed on this matter. What will the world say about the Opposition if we bring this matter to a vote ? In all parliaments there is an Opposition , but when a matter of common interest is introduced we should agree in such matters as we did in matters pertaining to education. I would suggest that my hon. friend should withdraw his amendment because he is a chief who is trusted by his own people . It would have been much better if the amendment was moved by a commoner. When we are trying to reclaim our own country a chief stands up and says No.
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , firstly I am pleased to know that the Opposition has no objection to what we want, but they are merely talking for the sake of talking . One of the speakers on the Opposition side stated that they only realised late that some of the Pondo land had been taken away from them . I support his complaint because Jumba's grave is in Elliot. They are just talking in the air, knowing that what they want is just the same as we do. If you ask where they get mealies from as they are now starving, they will tell you from the Free State and the Transvaal . Why should we not get the land which we claim and make it
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horse by the halter? Let us agree with the statement made that we should proceed in order to acquire our freedom . When a child is given food the child usually asks for more and is not satisfied with just a spoonful of that food . If you cut half a slice of bread for a child he will demand more . You are only requesting to be given half a loaf of bread , instead of asking for the whole loaf. As we are here
our Transvaal and Free State , and there place some of our farmers . Don't make a mistake about the words I have used - Free State and Transvaal. I merely mean we should produce our maize in these areas . There are areas bought by the Bantu Trust. Where did the Trust get this land? The land bought by the Bantu Trust in the Ciskei is Zwelitsha and Mdantsane . Does he say then that these lands we refer to should be bought by the Trust? Why should he object to our claim for these districts , and then if he wants more land he can make further claims, What about Umzimkulu? Some people said it belonged to the Never - never world , and we would never acquire it, but today we have acquired it and the Whites who are left in occupation at Umzimkulu are ready any day to move out. The Opposition should be prepared to withdraw its amendment.
representing the people we should be aware of what we ask for them . We do not want to be given just a bite; we want to be given the whole loaf. There is the Republic as at one time there was the Union. It is not as if we are pleased about being given this small area . We should ask for much more . If you get a small place you must expand that place . Even those who joined up in that war did not think much of it. They forgot the sayings of an old man, that after the two wars it would be up Why don't you to you to increase the land. ask for it? You must ask for the full loaf. We have done our work helping the White people. It does not matter because we are going to fight , we are not going to look for money . You fight for freedom, you don't fight to get money .
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I support the statement made by the hon. Chief Ndamase . I have heard what has been said in this House and this is what I wish to state . We are in the Transkei , a place that was joined up with other colonies in 1910 , and we have lived together amicably. Instead of us claiming what we enjoyed then, we now just want these lands that are here . What can we do with the small area here where we cannot get any gold or other minerals ? Nothing can give us any progress here . We are like a tethered horse. You claim now we should be given another boundary , instead of asking the Government to treat our country so that it is like other lands. People have said they want independence. We have done everything just as the other four provinces have done . You will remember the first and second World Wars. We were not put aside then. Why must you separate yourselves today ? What are your aims ? Follow what has been said by the hon. Chief Ndamase , who said to you that we want to go and stay in the land where the White people stay and stay there together . What are we running away for? We are trying to run away from this land that was given to us , which is just enough to keep a tethered horse in. It is just that which enslaved us . Our sons cannot go out to get employment anymore . This acquisition of small peices of land will not give us any improvement in our standard of living. After these two World Wars we expected freedom because of the assistance we gave. The Africans suffered with the others and their blood still seeps to this day . The second World War was fought and any country which gives assistance during the wars is given its freedom . I ask you to use your brain and not to just quibble . We should ask for something substantial . We should follow what is written in the Bible - Ask and it shall · be given to you. I ask this House to ask that we should be given land because we want to gain our freedom , just as other Africans have been given their freedom. We do not blame them, but at the same time we don't exempt from blame other people who went to Pretoria and gave away what was given to us. (Interjections) As Africans we now have our educated people . Why must we get a rope to tie round our necks like a halter , just like a horse so that when the owner wishes to he leads his
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am surprised and disappointed that we should spend so much time over a small matter , and all because of the DP . It is a matter that is quite clear - namely , that we require more land. It has become a habit with them to waste our time over a matter that is quite clear . Please stop this habit. What is the matter with you? Why all this dispute over a clearcut matter? It is a waste of time . You have been elected by the people so that you may come here with clear matters . This is one clear matter , so why do you oppose it? Just concentrate on the areas we are claiming and leave all else to the Government . In other words , drop your amendment. It is going to spoil our chances of the request being granted by the Government. Didn't you consider yourselves cleverer than all these people? Now there are only 25 of you against this whole lot of us . (Laughter ) You are making us crack our heads over this matter. As a matter of fact, I don't see why there should be this opposition, because the matter is quite clear. Some of you have already suggested to me that this Opposition should be done away with . A great number of you on that side have suggested that to me. You are now engaged in deceiving one another. Cross over to us and think afresh . We are now wasting time and the Government is not going to listen to our representations . Cross over to our side . I want to say we should be unanimous in this motion and it should be passed. I ask the hon. Chief Ndamase to withdraw his amendment because I know he is in full agreement with our point of view, as well as others on that side . I appeal to you to allow this motion to pass so that we can get this land , after which we can clamour for more . We want the Port St. John's district because it is a fertile area and our fathers died for it. We want the Umzimkulu district and the Matatiele district. We also want Mount Currie district. I hope after these few words the
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stands of South African history is the land question. The frontier policy and the land wars were fought to decide who was to possess the lands of this country . The answer is selfevident to anybody. You know who possesses the land of this country . Now the battle is between the " haves" and " have - nots " , and we must not be accused on this side of the House of being the " haves" because we are the " havenots" . So we require the land but we must not approach this matter in a naive way. (Laughter) We must approach it with an all - embracing and a well- reasoned attitude . I am sure this debate on this motion is an occasion that will be talked about when politicians gather together many years from today . Without history citizenship has no root and without citizenship history has no fruit, so definitely we must be unanimous on this amendment which seeks to gather more land, not to confine us . We must not constrict ourselves with unwarranted controls or limitations as that will be a blatant and flagrant rape of the rights of the people who elected us.
hon. Chief Ndamase will withdraw his amendment and that we will now be unanimous over We are here representing the this motion. people at home and they have elected you because they have trust in you. Well , let us do everything we can for them . If they have elected you , tell them the truth. Some of the members don't tell the truth to the electorate. The people are still illiterate and they don't understand , but we should not take advantage of them . You will be found out. I support the motion by the hon. Mr. Msengana.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to endorse the encomium of the members on this side of the House , and more especially to associate myself closely with the amendment which has been put by the hon. member for Ngqeleni . I have listened attentively to the arguments of all the previous speakers , and I think there is one point only that transcends their speeches . It is , in fact , that we are all agreed on the motion but with the amendment . The amendment seeks to extend · not only that we should be housed in a "pondokkie " . It reminds me of an article that appeared in the Daily Dispatch of Friday, 30th January , 1970. The heading is : " So we acquired a tribal terrier" . Three questions were posed therein: Was this terrier a Pondoland Pomeranian; was this terrier a Tembuland Truffle -hound; or was it a Bomvana Beagle? But I can draw reasonable conclusion from that. This must have been a mongrel . (Laughter) Now, there is a belief on the part of this terrier that a chop in the mouth is worth twenty future developments . The objection to this motion is that it seeks a chop in the mouth. We are not interested in one chop in the mouth. If one has to study the history of those districts which are sought to be acquired for the Transkei in the motion, one has to go as far back as the Tembu rebellion, you know. ( Laughter) Now, you got the district of Elliot and then after that Slang River Settlement - in fact, if there are students of history, which I doubt , especially on that side of the House , ( Laughter) but I am an authority on history, and you find that the district of Elliot was acquired and I know that Jumba's grave is there . In fact it is in a place called Mncwasa near Isitoleni. The hon. member for Umtata, Chief Jumba , said he would never like to see foxes jumping over the grave of his fathers and I could help him if he wanted to exhume that grave . What we want on the Opposition side is that among the Xhosas there is a special blanket and after the initiation ceremony a young man is clothed in that blanket instead of a sheepskin because a grown man is clothed in that. After he has worn this a long time this blanket wears out and it becomes old and tattered . We do not want such tattered rags on this side . These rags are given to the boys and because they are rough they break the skin off the boys. We have moved this amendment because there is sufficient , thinking of one man's stomach , but we are thinking of all the people. They have only asked for that one small area . We have not asked for one chop in the mouth because we are not tribalistic terriers . I have heard all the speeches made and came to the decision that land is required . In fact, one of the major
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now give a chance to the mover of the motion to reply. MR. R.B. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret that what appears to me to be national necessity should be taken as a joke. This motion seeks to benefit the Transkeian citizens . This motion speaks about the Transkei and claims the return of land formerly belonging to the Transkei. The Opposition is dragging into this motion their policy of wanting They are to go to Cape Town parliament. dragging their policy into this motion - their policy of wanting the whole of the Republic . They see nothing wrong with the amendment they have moved . They do not understand that the amendment is out of the way in that it wants us to go on to Republican soil. The land we are claiming is part of the Republic but we know that in history if formerly formed part of the Transkei. We come here as representatives of the people and we should think of the people . When this motion was moved in 1968 , a member who moved a similar amendment was not returned to this House in the last general election, but now the Opposition has been clever enough to give a nominated member the task of moving this amendment because they realise that otherwise it would do a great deal of harm to their Even as it is , people of intellect on cause . the Opposition side did not speak on this motion. (Laughter ) Mr. Chairman, I move the motion as it stands . THE CHAIRMAN : The question is a motion by the hon. member , Mr. R.B. Msengana , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . I now put the question to delete the words proposed in the amendment .
The amendment was lost and the proposed words retained . The original motion was put and carried. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 29th April , 1970. 94.
WEDNESDAY, 29th APRIL , 1970
and that we may perhaps make a worthy contribution to this very complicated problem.
Prayers were read. Mr. Chairman, if public assurances and good intentions alone were sufficient to generate economic development then I am convinced that the Transkei would already have been well on its way towards economic prosperity. I think you and I have time and again been assured of the high potential of the Transkei . We know that all the political parties in the Republic of South Africa are unanimous on the need to develop the potential of the Bantu Homelands and particularly the Transkei to its maximum possibilities within the shortest possible time . Economic development of the Homelands has become a household word in South African
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon, members , I wish to inform the House that Chief Zwelibanzi Ndarala and Chief Sigixana Langa are not able to attend these sessions . They are both ill. I would move that this House should pardon all these chiefs whose names have been mentioned by me if they fail to attend the whole session. The Constitution says that if a member fails to attend the whole session without being pardoned by this House he loses his membership. It is highly improbable that Chief Sigixana Langa will attend and the same may be the position in regard to Chief Makosonke Sigcau.
politics . Many symposiums and conferences have been convened and even corporations established to further this objective . We have been assured time and again even as recently as at the opening of this Legislative Assembly - that of all the under- developed territories in Africa the Transkei has the greatest chance of economic success . ·
MR. R.B. MSENGANA : I second, Mr. Chairman.
And it is a fact, Mr. Chairman, that the Transkei has a tremendous agricultural potential. Of its 4,507,155 morgen, 941,000 are cultivated . A further 203,343 morgen are used for forestry purposes and nearly 100,000 for purposes other than for farming by Bantu farmers . That leaves 3,263,000 morgen which are used by Bantu farmers for grazing purposes .
Agreed to. APIROPRIATION BILL SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should now sit in committee of supply.
The potential of the area is determined mainly by the climatic conditions and the quality of the soils . Nearly 86 per cent of the area has an average annual rainfall of 28 inches and more, and 67 per cent has an average of 32 inches and more . The area has a high relative humidity , a high incidence of cloudiness and a low average temperature , all of which are particularly favourable for the moisture -use - pattern of plants . It is estimated that with the application of the present techniques practised in South Africa the Transkei has the soil and the climate to produce 50,000,000 bags of maize per season - in other words nearly enough to meet the whole of the Republic's demand. A large variety of other crops can be grown in the Transkei with good results . Of these tea , coffee , sisal , nuts , cotton, sugar, vegetables and fruit are the most important. Apart from this the grazing in the Transkei is eminently suitable for cattle and sheep farming.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee POLICY SPEECH OF THE CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE : 1970 Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members It gives me great pleasure today to deliver my sixth policy speech to this Legislative Assembly. Apart from yearly reviews on the activities and administration of the department under my control it has also become more or less customary for me to give an exposition yearly to this House on various political issues and more especially on the policy of self- realisation with particular reference to its application in the Transkei . Although I realise very well that
It is also a fact that much has already been done , especially by our own Agricultural Department and before it by the South African Bantu Trust to develop the Transkei agriculturally. I do not wish to enumerate all our achievements in this regard, e.g. the fact that approximately 45% of the Transkei has been planned , that large irrigation schemes are being established and planned , that a tea industry has been established , that 59,972 morgen of land have been afforested , etc .: Add thereto the efforts of the Xhosa Development Corporation during recent years to establish and expand industrial and commercial activities in the Transkei and it becomes clear that a great effort has already been made to develop the potential of the Transkei .
the opposition party across the floor will sadly miss this yearly lecture which is mainly intended for their edification and consumption I have nevertheless decided this year to refrain from doing so and rather to deal with another issue today which I regard as being of paramount importance to the Transkei in its present stage of development. Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I intend today to devote my entire policy speech to the question of the economic development of the Transkei and I sincerely hope that this House will rise to the occasion and give this topic the serious thought which it deserves ,
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We must after all be willing and prepared to take a major part in shaping our own destiny, and I firmly believe that any plan or campaign to develop the Transkei economically should for maximum results be based in and be co - ordinated and activated from the Transkei itself, so as to ensure also the active participation and support of the Transkeian people as a whole .
Yet, Mr. Chairman, in spite of all the genuine and praiseworthy efforts of our own Departments , the Xhosa Development Corporation and the Bantu Investment Corporation, and in spite of quite a substantial injection of funds into the Transkei during recent years it is a fact that the country as a whole is still poor and agriculturally backward . Thousands of able -bodied citizens have to leave the Transkei yearly to earn a living elsewhere . The agricultural production of the Transkei has barely increased if it has increased at all - during the last 30 years and we seem to be making little head-way towards a more viable economy.
This does not mean at all that the Transkei should try to go it alone as far as our economical development is concerned - by no means so. We are only too conscious of our heavy reliance on the Republican Government and bodies such as the Bantu Investment Corporation, the Xhosa Development Corporation , the I.D.C. and the Permanent Committee for the Location of Industry - and we look forward to the closest co-operation with and assistance and guidance from these expert bodies and persons in our struggle to rise.
This is no doubt a serious situation that calls for realistic thinking and - rethinking . This is certainly not a matter about which we should be pointing fingers at one another and I believe only a fool could think that he has a ready-made solution for this very involved situation. I believe that the problem of developing an underdeveloped country is perhaps one of the most vexed problems to be faced - especially in the economic sphere . It is a problem that has occupied the minds of the best economic experts in many parts of the world - without any ready-made solution having been found .
It is in this spirit of wanting to do our share towards solving our problems in the economic field that I want to plead today for a more realistic and dynamic approach towards speeding up the industrial and economic development of the Transkei . A new approach is called for and to my mind we should now embark on a broad seven-pronged development plan along the following lines : -
The following passage from the book Problems of the Capital Formation in Underdeveloped Countries by Ragnar Nurkse on this subject is so apposite to the Transkei that I shall read it to you:-
(a) Better planning and co -ordination of the efforts of the different development bodies in the Transkei .
" In discussions of the problem of economic development, a phrase that crops up frequently is 'the vicious circle of poverty ' . It is generally treated as something obvious , too obvious to be worth examining . I hope I may be forgiven if I begin by taking a look at this obvious concept.
(b) Formulating plans to ensure greater agricultural production in the Transkei . (c) Planning a sound infra - structure for economic development in the Transkei .
"It implies a circular constellation of forces tending to act and react upon one another in such a way as to keep a poor country in a state of poverty. Particular instances of such circular constellations are not difficult to imagine . For example , a poor man may not have enough to eat; being under-fed , his health may be weak; being physically weak, his working capacity is low , which means that he is poor , which in turn means that he will not have enough to eat; and so on. A situation of this sort, relating to a country as a whole , can be summed up in the trite proposition: 'a country is poor because it is poor '.
(d) Formulating plans and creating that political climate which will attract private industries to the Transkei on the Agency basis . (e) Exploiting the tourist potential of the Transkei and the crafts and skills of our people . ( f) The adjustment and adaptation of our educational system to foster economic development. (g) The activation of our people towards greater initiative and productivity.
In the case of the Transkei we have our own peculiar vicious circle , namely that of our migratory workers who, because of the low agricultural production cannot live off the land; consequently the able-bodied men go as migratory workers to the industrial areas; because they are away in the industrial centres they do not work the lands and because they do not work the lands the production remains low, etc.
Mr. Chairman I will now elaborate on each of these points : (a) Better planning and co - ordination :
It is a fact that up to the present there has been very little correlation and co-ordination of plans for the economic development of the Transkei between the Transkeian Administration and bodies such as the Xhosa Development Corporation, the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Permanent Committee for the Location of Industries - all bodies which
Nevertheless , Mr. Chairman , it surely does not behove us as leaders of the Transkeian people to throw up our hands in despair. It is for us to recognise and to identify our problems and to do our share towards finding solutions.
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to a larger or lesser extent can and should make a very real contribution to economic development in the Transkei .
more fully when that Department's vote is discussed in this House. There is, however, one aspect of agriculture in the Transkei which gives cause for serious concern and that is the question of agricultural production . In spite of all our extension services and our preaching and propagating of improved agricultural methods over many years it is a fact that the people of the Transkei have not yet risen above a subsistence economy. Apart from statecontrolled undertakings such as our forestry development , our Phormium Tenax development and our Tea development schemes , agricultural production has hardly shown any increase over the last 30 years or more.
I have particularly felt the need for much closer co - operation and co -ordination of activities between this administration and the Xhosa Development Corporation - a body specifically formed to stimulate economic development in the Transkei and the Ciskei - and have already towards this end suggested that the Transkei Government be represented on the Board of Directors of the Xhosa Development Corporation but so far this has not yet been accomplished . But apart from the necessity for closer liaison with the Xhosa Development Corporation I am convinced that what is most urgently needed in the Transkei at the moment is -
This is a matter that should receive serious consideration by us all in this House as well as by all Transkeian Citizens . Resoluteness and perhaps even drastic remedies might be necessary to break through this barrier to our future progress . This is where our fight against poverty and backwardness must start for I am convinced that there can be no progress in the Transkei without increased agricultural production.
(i) a planning board or commission to be established in the Transkei to advise on the broad lines of economic development; (ii) an effective statistical office at Umtata to assemble all relevant information on which to base future plans for development; and
In this connection I wish to quote the following extract from a speech which Prof. D. Hobart Houghton delivered at Fort Hare on 14th August , 1969 : -
(iii ) an office to liaise with the various bodies mentioned above ; to initiate economic research where necessary and to advise would -be entrepreneurs in the Transkei .
" The ' vicious circle of poverty ' has been breeched in many countries by the discovery of rich mineral deposits whose exploitation attracted foreign capital and provided the finance necessary for developing the infra- structure . As these mines developed they generated sufficient income to transform the whole country and to enable it to ' take off ' into a higher level of economic activity. This is what diamonds and gold have done for the Republic . No such mineral deposits have yet been revealed in the Transkei and although detailed prospecting has not been carried out in most parts of the territory it would be unrealistic to rely on a windfall of this nature . Development must , therefore , be based primarily upon the transformation of farming within the Transkei , and on the gradual development of secondary and tertiary activities relative to this agricultural advance . "
The Transkeian Cabinet has consequently already decided in principle to establish a separate Branch for economic development within the Transkeian Department of Finance and has requested the Transkeian Public Service Commission to investigate the establishment of such a Branch on the lines indicated above and to determine the staff requirements . I do not wish to elaborate any further on this matter at the moment apart from indicating that the proposed commission to advise on economic development should consist of senior officials of the Transkeian Public Service , economic experts from outside , whilst bodies such as the X.D.C. will also be invited to take a seat on the Commission . It is also hoped that through the kind co -operation of one of our well-disposed universities it would be possible to man the control post of the Branch as well as the statistical post with well-qualified economic experts , perhaps on a contract basis , for at least the first few formative years .
It is also interesting to note that the primary importance of agricultural development as a sine qua non for economic development is being appreciated more and more wherever battle is joined to develop an under - developed country . The following remarks in a recent report of the World Bank are very relevant : -
(b) Greater Agricultural Production: I have already referred to the achievements of our Department of Agriculture and Forestry in the Transkei and this matter will , no doubt , also be discussed
"Bank operations in Latin America in the field of agriculture are likely to increase sharply in the coming years , not
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a solid infra- structure should be developed such as well-planned industrial areas and sites , special roads , water, electricity, special rail facilities , etc. This Government commits itselfto assist by all possible means at its disposal and within its financial means to establish and build up such an infra- structure at certain pre- selected towns in the Transkei .
only because we are placing greater emphasis upon this field, but because the countries themselves are coming to appreciate the importance of agriculture for their economic strength and development. " If we all agree that agricultural production is to be the base or launching pad for accelerated economic deceloment in the Transkei then a number of very pertinent questions come to mind - questions which we shall have to face sooner or later, such as the following for instance :-
A matter that I must, however , again moot here is the dire necessity for establishing a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad - a distance of approximately 100 miles. Such a link will not only open up for development a now more or less dormant area in the Transkei but will bring us so much closer and make us more accessible to the vigorously developing industrial areas of Natal to our north and will furthermore also establish a much shorter direct rail link between Cape Town and Durban.
Can we still afford the luxury of dishing out valuable agricultural land to people who in many cases are too old, lazy or lethargic to word such lands profitably or should lands be given only to those who are physically able and willing to work such lands properly?
I therefore again appeal to our good friend , the Minister of Transport in the Republic , to consider favourably this request of ours which has now been reverberating against closed doors for wellnigh 50 years in fact ever since the railway line was brought to Umtata in 1916.
If individual farming is not suitable to our temperament and aptitudes should we not go over to corporate or communal farming and working of our lands ?
If diversification is necessary in our farming should we not compel farmers to diversify as is done in many countries ? If mechanization is essential to step up production should we not consider ways and means to foster mechanizations ?
(d) Private Industries and the Agency basis : I trust that by this time members are well aware of the announcements by the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development in connection with the establishment of industries by White entrepreneurs within the Bantu Homelands on the agency basis .
Our schemes and attitudes up to the present seem to have shown little results as far as increased production is concerned. If we acknowledge this to be the case then we should not be dogmatic but should be prepared to re -examine our agricultural policies , priorities and methods of the past in order to change this stagnant - and sometimes even deteriorating - situation . The wealth ofthe Transkei lies in agriculture but this wealth must be exploited and we cannot allow it to lie dormant for ever.
I welcome the fact that a formula has now been found to allow White initiative to help with the industrial development of the Homelands. Members will recall that I already pleaded that such a formula should be evolved as far back as 1964 when I introduced the Transkeian Reserve Fund and Development Bill . According to this formula all the concessions available to industrialists in the border areas are now also available to industrialists going to the Bantu Homelands , the only real restrictive condition being that White industrialists are not entitled to acquire vested rights in fixed property in Homelands such as the TransIn other words would-be White kei. entrepreneurs will have to enter into longterm lease agreements in respect of the land they wish to occupy .
(c) Infra- structure : I believe the Transkei has certain advantages over most other underdeveloped areas which makes it perhaps more attractive for investment and industrialisation. The Transkei for instance is interspersed with a number of well - controlled sizable towns which can easily be extended; where electricity and water are readily available ; which either lie on a railway line or are linked with other towns and the railway line by a good road network; where certain raw materials are at hand and where an abundance of labour is on the doorstep. In addition the territory lies approximately midway between the harbours of East London and Durban.
I have great hopes that a valuable contribution to the development of the Transkei can be made by industrialists coming to the Transkei in terms of the agency basis , especially in view of the declared policy of the Republican Government in connection with the decentralisation of industries. I sincerely hope that
It is , however, appreciated that in order to attract industries on any scale 98.
In our efforts to industrialise we should not neglect the small man or individual entrepreneur . He should be encouraged and assisted to use his initiative and prowess to establish small inundertakings e.g. dependent saddle makers , stone cutters , knitting establishments , small carpentry shops , basket makers , cane furniture makers , cement brick makers , etc. I sincerely hope a body such as the Xhosa Development Corpration will create a special branch to organize and stimulate this sort of development which I believe will in the long run make a great impact on and contribution to our economic develoment .
through the good offices of the Permanent Committee for the Location of Industries domy a steady stream of would -be entrepreneurs could be channelized to the Transkei. It is incumbent on us , Mr. Chairman, as the Government of this territory to let such industrialists know that they would be welcome in the Transkei . It is also incumbent on us to create a political climate in the Transkei that would attract industries to the Transkei . The Transkei must be known as a country with a stable government, with a well -disposed populace and as a place where law, order and goodwill are maintained. By doing that we will create a solid base and the right climate for investment and development.
( f) Adaptation
of our educational system :
Mr. Chairman, the first schools for our children in the Transkei were established more than 100 years ago. From a small beginning then education has
(e) Tourist potential and arts and crafts : It is a well-known fact that the Transkei embraces some of the finest scenery in the world, being particularly renowned for its undulating green hills , beautiful waterfalls , rare indigenous forests and scenic seaside resorts all along what is generally known as the Wild Coast which is famed for its sea and estuary fishing.
grown to where we have today 1,600 primary, 57 secondary , 13 high and 7 teacher-training schools with 350,000 12,500 and 13,000 scholars respectively and about 6,600 teachers of all grades . Apart from this we have had agricultural schools in this area since 1913 as well as certain trade and occupational schools .
The greatest contribution to the national income of many countries is made by its tourist trade yet the tourist potential of the Transkei has hardly been developed at all and the contribution to the Transkei's national income from this source is negligible.
During this century and more many thousands of our Transkeian people have passed through the corridors of our primary, high and training schools as well as our schools of agriculture , and many qualified as teachers and agricultural demostrators , etc.
The Cabinet has consequently decided in principle -
What sort of an impression have these educational institutions and the services of our own qualified people made on the Have we Transkeian Xhosa society? succeeded in changing to any marked extent the visions or mental attitudes ofthe avarage Transkeian man and woman?
(i) to create a departmental section in our administration to organize and promote tourism in the Transkei and has referred this matter for further investigation and a report to the Public Service Commission;
(ii) to embark on a program of developing caravan parks with the necessary faciclities required for camping at certain selected seaside resorts ; and
Has our educational system succeeded in teaching the average man and woman to change his attitude of conservatism and inertia, to accept better and modern farming methods , to be receptive to ideas of organized marketing , co-operative movements , business management , health education , community service and a higher standard of living ? Are the young Transkeians being imbued with a pride in their country, the culture of their people and their citizenship of their own state? Is a sense of urgency instilled in them as far as the rehabilitation of their land and the economic development of their country is concerned? Are they being taught the dignity of labour ?
(iii) to start during this year with the development of a tourist centre at Umtata which will , inter alia, embrace a Transkei Xhosa museum, a cinema , a Xhosa Arts and Crafts centre , etc. I hope the arts and crafts centre will also stimulate the development of a handcraft industry in the Transkei - because our people seem to have a natural flair for making ornamental articles from clay, wood, stone, ox-horns , beads , etc. , by hand . Should we not exploit that which is readily at our disposal? It may sound phoney - but if all the hippies in the world today could be moved to ' meditate ' with the famed and unique Xhosa- pipes ·
Do our schools exercise any marked influence on the advancment of the surrounding adult society?
quite an industry could be established in the Transkei to produce such pipes.
If the answers to these questions are in the negative then we have no reason to 99.
AFTERNNON SESSION DATERT
be self-stafisfied . We must be prepared to adapt our educational system to the needs of our country. Our educational system must, above all , not breed a small selected society of snobs who stand aloof to the aspirations of their own people and the needs of their country .
The debate on the Appropriation Bill ( Vote 1 ) was resumed. MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I feel that this side of the House is justified in saying that this statement has been well received by all members of the Assembly. It is characteristic of the Englishman to use an understatement in expressing his appreciation and may I plead guilty to being typically English in my expression. I want to assure the hon. the Minister of Finance that we have gladly missed the political angle in this speech and we welcome this down-to-earth tackling of the problems facing the Transkei . We would like everybody to feel assured that everybody is concerned over the stagnation which seems to have caught up with us and that this type of positive thinking and planning is something which gives us a promise for the future . Let me say that the Opposition has always held these views and expressed them in titbits in this House , but we shall not take credit for this comprehensive summary of the essentials which face the Transkei at the present moment. We do feel that agriculture is the basis of our economy in the Transkei and the more we can take out of the land the greater will be the prosperity of the peasant tribesman of the Transkei ; and the greater the production, the greater will be the favourable location factors for industry in the Transkei . It is a sad commentary on the African that in spite of the fact that he has the best portion of South Africa agriculturally and pastorally, he should be producing the least in this regard . I am feeling very sorry for the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry because the remarks which we have heard this morning are going to load him with a colossal responsibility, for we have in effect heard it said today (and we endorse it) that agriculture is the basis of development in the Transkei and we are looking forward to the establishment of an agricultural advisory department independent of political affiliations to apply itself practically to the agricultural problems of the Transkei . In the old feudal days it was the landlords , the rich , who owned most of the land and the landless were serfs on the land. The position is reversed in the Transkei in that the most poor are the ones who are on the land , and we have got to re-organize our land tenure in the Transkei so that the man who can use the land is on the land , the man who cannot use the land is off the land , and that the acreage given to the peasant farmer should be one that he can economically use and exploit and those who can handle a bigger acreage should do so , because the all- round result will be increased productivity. It would be a good thing if we were able to tie our able- bodied men down to the land. Those men who move out of the Transkei to the rest of the Republic do so because they cannot fill their stomachs in the Transkei , and if we would make it possible for them to use their land to produce sufficient for them to maintain themselves and their families and educate their children , and have a little comfort , we shall have done something positive to solve this problem of migratory labour . In this
(g) The activation of our people :
Mr. Chairman, I have already parrially covered this aspect and I could have deleted this point were it not that I wanted to call on the members of this Assembly, each and everyone of you , to help us to activate our people to shake off their bonds of apathy and inertia and to take up the challenge of developing the Transkei. Earlier in my speech I referred to the Transkei as an underdeveloped country . I agree with those economists who say that an underdeveloped country is the result of an underdeveloped or backward people. These two ideas go hand in hand. The upliftment and activation of our people is therefore a prerequisite for the real and sound economic development of our country . The demand for an immediate and definite break-through against opposition to progress and development is very urgent, and I call on you , the members of this Assembly the leaders of the AmaXhosa- speaking people of the Transkei to take a lead in this forward movement. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , I think I have done some straight talking in this policy speech today and I trust it will not be taken amiss . We must however learn to be pragmatic , to face facts as they are , for nothing could be more damaging to us at this stage of our development than to bury our heads in the sand like ostriches . I hope my speech today will lead to a fruitful discussion on a very high note. Let us forget party politics in this debate and have a meaningful interchange of ideas on the great needs of our country and our people . In conclusion , Mr. Chairman , I will not today discuss the various items or sub- items on Vote 1. I have already discussed any abnormal features of the estmates in my budget speech, and the report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral as well as the report of the Public Service Commission have already been tabled in the Assembly, so that members should really be well-versed by this time on the administration of my department. Any questions on the administration of my department will be gladly answered as usual . Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , I ask you to approve of the policy of my Department and that Vote 1 be now considered by this Committee of the Legislative Assembly.
The Assembly adjourned . 100 .
Sir, quite clearly on infra - structure proportion for industry and I think there are , and I agree with you that there are many location factors which are favourable to the development of industry in some of the growth points of the Transkei. Whilst we may be concerned with the establishment of these industries we must not lose sight of the fact that we can only rise by pulling ourselves up by our bootlaces , and there again we go back to agriculture which is the backbone of any nation. The world is complaining that sooner or later there will not be sufficient food to feed its population . We have that situation in the Transkei on a small scale , and unless we change our attitude to work and labour with our own hands , we shall not get anywhere . I think it is more honourable to produce a prize cabbage than to sit and eat it, but we may have all these plans for agriculture yet if our local authorities , if our chiefs , if our headmen , if our sub-headmen, if our members of the Legislative Assembly do not apply themselves , everything will be in vain and therefore the call of the hon. the Chief Minister and my call on behalf of the Opposition is directed to each and every man who has a piece of land at his kraal site or a piece of land amongst the agricultural allotments of his community : That the land be used profitably; that if you cannot use the land profitably hand it over to someone else who can use it profitably; that if you cannot use your land profitably get another man to help you use it profitably. If each one of ten of us has one ox with which to plough and we come together with our ten oxen to plough our lands ..... I want to ask this question of us all : How much money have we paid to tractor owners to plough our lands during the past two years ? Is it not true that in a given administrative area the amount of money paid to hire a tractor is sufficient to have been a deposit in the purcahse of a tractor for that administrative area ? When we count the number of districts which have been assisted in ploughing we would say we would have a tractor almost in each of these districts and in each of the administrative areas that have taken advantage of the ploughing scheme sponsored by the Government. But again, we are faced here with the conservatism of the man on the land, the older generation which refuses to change and probably we may have to deal with them with some tolerance , but our investment must be in the youth who shall be on the land tomorrow. Mr. Chairman, I could go on commenting on some of the major points raised by the hon. the Chief Minister in his speech, but I feel that my time has already expired . Once again I want to say how much pleased we are with the direction of that and the direction of planning which has been shown in this memorable and epoch-making speech by the hon. the Minister of Finance . This side of the House has forgotten that it is an Opposition because your problem is our problem over this issue .
way we shall therefore be reducing or combatting those situations which tend to perpetuate a system of labour that impoverishes the Transkei. May I also throw this idea out for what it is worth - that the Transkei should be content to seek to elevate the people living in the Transkei and those who are in the urban areas should not be forced to return to the Transkei , because the small bread now has to be shared amongst a greater number than before . Those who come to the Transkei should be allowed to do so only if they are going to give a boost to our economic development, and our future should be based on investments not for prestige , but bread- and-butter investments. You have our whole-hearded support, Sir, in inviting such bodies as the XDC , BIC , IDC and the PCLI to look at the Transkei as their concern . Some of the men in these bodies are economic experts who should apply their wisdom positively to ways and means of developing the Transkei. One does not want to ask why were the Tomlinson recommendations not implemented because , as I said during the no-confidence debate , we do not want to go through the kitchen and look through the garbage box. We would like to see , however , a five-year programme or a ten-year programme of agriculture particularly, and see if we achieve our objectives at the end of that period. Then we shall be engaged in hard work, not theory, and these experts shall have planned the future for the next five years or for the next ten years . You have also indicated , Sir , that there should be White capital coming into the Transkei in order to develop industries . Sir, this is a very good idea and we have constantly repeated this request that there should be freedom of investment for White entrepreneurs in the Transkei . Decentralisation of industry is the objective of the Republican Government and we feel that this decentralisation should not end along the borders of the Bantustans , but should extend into the Transkei and other homelands . You have seen border industries established , and these entrepreneurs have had all the rights that are enjoyed by other entrepreneurs in the highly industrialised areas of the Republic . We have , however, one drawback relating to the conditions applicable to these White entrepreneurs when they contemplate establishing industries in the Transkei and this is that they are not allowed to own property in the Transkei , and yet we allow the South African Bantu Trust, the XDC , to own property in these Territories , and if these White entrepreneurs were to invest in industry in the Transkei their properties would yield revenue to municipalities by way of rates and taxes , and these men would be encouraged to invest more because they know their future is assured than when they are allowed in here on an agency basis , and those industries are going to help alleviate the poverty in the Transkei . You have indicated , Sir , that they would hold property here under long-term lease agreements. I wonder if you would not consider giving them perpetual leases , which is short of ownership . The more capital we have involved in the Transkei , the better is the economic position of the Transkei , and how much land will they have taken away from the Transkei citizens if they are allowed to come in to inject economic progress here ? You have commented ,
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. GUZANA : Now, having said all that, our hands to the plough. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am glad to stand
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up after the very welcome speech that has been made by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition in support of the policy speech that has been made by the hon. the Chief Minister. Indeed , the Leader of the Opposition's attitude towards the side of agriculture makes me feel very hopeful that we will get co - operation . Everybody realises that the economy of the country depends primarily on agriculture , especially so with reference to our particular part of the country. We have soil as well as a reasonable climate in most areas , but it has been pointed out that we do not produce enough even to support ourselves . A wide variety of crops as well as animals can be developed in the country . It is not because no attempts have been made on the part of the leading people or the governing people even in former days , right up to now. Quite useful attempts have been made , as has been mentioned , in regard to education , with the start of the Agricultural School as far back as 1913 , followed by agricultural demonstrators extension officers, and quite a lot of propaganda has been carried out even by radio at the present day to try to get the people to produce more and more , as far as possible . However, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned, there has been practically no development, but stagnation . The problem is : How can we move the people ? Suggestions have been thrown out by the hon. the Chief Minister, perhaps leading us to some thoughts about these things . For instance , there is the question he mentioned about communal agriculture . Such problems , of course , need a great deal of thought as well as co-operation. He has also mentioned , just as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition also hinted , the question of the people who are capable to work the land leaving it to those who That is a who are incapable of working it. problem that has always been in our minds. In fact, I could go further and mention the other point that the hon. Leader has hinted at - that of giving more land to those people who show capability to make use of it. May I mention , Sir, that I had a problem, especially on that last point, even with the hon. members of this House in general : The question of cutting up the present land for more people to occupy and farm . It is a problem that we have to solve because , as I mentioned , only those people who can farm profitably should be left on the land, but our leaders again in general insist that we should cut up the land more and more so that everbody who is there should get a piece of land to cultivate. MR. GUZANA :
Well, I have not asked for
a plot of land from the Chief Minister. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , you are perhaps one of the few exceptions . What I am striving to show is that we are in agreement on this point that it should be only those people who can profitably farm who should be placed on the farms . More and more of the coming generation will still ask for these lands (that has been my point ) and what will they get at the end of it? That is a problem that we as leaders in this House should face squarely and decide on. There is the problem again, as I mentioned, of individual as against collective
farming. It has been very difficult to get our people to join even ordinary farmers ' associations . We also have the co- operative system that has been introduced in recent years - a system that would be of great help to the people if only they could apply themselves to work co-operatively . Take that question of the purchase of a tractor which could be undertaken quite readily if only the people would be prepared to work co-operatively . Many schemes have been introduced to the people to try to get them to move forward in the progress of production, even with reference to the stock-farming side Better producing animals , of our activities. males especially, have been placed before the people but we find that they hardly bring about improvement. It is up to us , therefore , as members of this House to exercise our thoughts as well as exercise our leadership with these people to bring about some of these things to be accepted by them. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned the question of having a certain programme , such as a fiveyear or ten-year programme in agriculture . A very good proposition it is indeed , and has worked very well with some countries such as the little state of Israel , for instance , a country that has no greater difficulties with reference to climate and, I suppose , also to soil than ourselves , but again that will depend on the co-operation of the people. We need these able -bodied people to remain in the Transkei and to work throughout the year, and if only we could work together and see that the people start in their progressive efforts then they would see that this country can produce enough for its inhabitants . I am sorry I have spoken only about agriculture , but let me refer to a few more things before I pass on from this question of agriculture , which will be in connection with this five -year programme . We still have difficulty even in the ordinary planning or fencing in the administrative areas as the people still refuse to accept that, so we need all the help we can get, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has said. The colossal responsibility that rests on the shoulders of the agricultural officials shows that we need every possible help . Industrial development primarily depends on agriculture , as everybody knows. Attempts have been made to develop certain crops which would assist that aspect, such as afforestation, phormium tenax or New Zealand hemp, tea and other crops that could be used industrially , such as cotton. All those again would be of great help to the people in giving them employment as well as bringing cash to them within the country . I am glad that the hon. Leader has also referred to the co-operation that we should try to exercise with the bodies which have knowledge and experience of other ventures in industrial development. The hon. the Chief Minister mentioned certain methods by which we could try to develop our country , for instance the closer co-ordination of the different planning and development organisations in the Transkei , in addition to the formulation of plans to ensure greater agricultural production, exploitation of the tourist industry , etc. Now, in connection with the last one I have mentioned, there again we will find it will need a great deal of mental effort and leadership from all of us to provide these amenities for
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Now it is the XDC and they refuse . At first the XDC invoked a better scheme by allowing a small deposit and giving a long period in which to pay the balance. A person was allowed to pay about R60 a month, but now they are given only 24 months at the rate of R80 per month . People who paid deposits for tractors during this drought will have their tractors taken away from them because they are unable to pay . One thing that should be attended to as far as agriculture is concerned is that they allow people to speculate in cattle and when I go out to the location I usually see fine animals , not scrub. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture states that they encourage us to create co- operative societies but he refused to allow us to have such an association in Umtata . He gave as an excuse that there is no White man to supervise that co-operative society . We went as a delegation of three men but our request has not been acceded to up to this date . Reference has been made to White tourists . Sure enough , the tourists would bring revenue into the Transkei , but they have a very bad habit whilst travelling on the national roads of parking their cars and calling upon little boys and girls to dance for them in their nude state . We would rather have no tourists because they will turn us into a zoo. (Laughter) Lastly, I would suggest that even in the rural locations an attempt should be made to establish industries . Why can't we use our own products such as skins and hides ? Even illiterate women have got their own skills and they could make such articles as lumber jackets out of skins , because these are sold for 5 cents . That would greatly assist the people because there is drought and starvation at present. It is useless to build dams when there is no rain. ( Laughter)
the tourists . Natural beauty places occur in our country as, for instance , along the sea coast and also along the mountainsides . There again it would mean that it becomes our duty to see that these natural resources are preserved and to try to prevent the people from destroying them . If we were to make a start and teach them these things , to preserve them for themselves as well as to develop them as attractions to the tourist industry , it would be a very great step towards the provision of more revenue . Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to go further than that, but I wish again to appeal to all the hon. members that we should start being the teachers and the leaders of the people to show them what they can produce , to apply themselves diligently and consistently to their own improvement, and in that improvement, of course , the whole country will greatly benefit. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been long waiting for such a speech. As has already been stated by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition we are not going to make a claim and say some of the matters revealed in this statement are matters that we made reference to earlier , but we are very pleased that it has now dawned on the ruling side . It has always been stressed that the advancement of a people depends on agriculture . I would say that when we are tackling the problem of agriculture we should do so in a truthful manner. If people are going to be persuaded to follow up methods in connection with agricultural problems these people should not be cheated. They should not be threatened and they should not be oppressed. Some people should not be picked up because they have not accepted suggestions from the Government. Time should be taken in teaching people about what they are required to do. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What about the people who disturb that education? MR. MNYANI : If there are people who disturb such education it is usually because the education has been left to the women during the absence of the men and the women have been cheated into such education. (Laughter) If I have a wife, must she refer to you? Yesterday we were given a certain lesson. In that gathering there were no women and the men accepted what they had learned . Another thing I wish to touch on is in connection with land which has been used for ploughing purposes being sold. Usually that land is taken and given for the purposes of industry and where there was a farm you will find that gaol buildings are constructed. (Laughter) A prison can be built even on rocky ground. · Another thing I wish to mention is that tractors should be put to use for ploughing, but I am sorry to say that the Black people who want to buy tractors do not receive any assistance from the XDC to which reference has been made . I do not know whether this is caused by the fact that the XDC bought its own tractors and whether it then became jealous of other people owning tractors . When this system began, if one had property to place as security then one received assistance from the BIC to purchase a tractor.
MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of Finance is very important . The Transkei depends largely on animal husbandry and farming. It would afford me much pleasure if the House would be agreed on this policy speech. I have noted that all the speakers who have spoken have largely spoken on the agricultural aspect. In my experience we in the Transkei believe that agriculture is the only thing in which the people can be engaged. We think we know so much about farming that we refuse to accept any education in connection with it, but, as the hon. the Chief Minister pointed out, there are various ways of making money in the Transkei . I think it would be a good thing if we would humble ourselves and accept education. Different speakers have mentioned that we shall have to establish industries in order that there should be intensive farming. Our trouble at this stage is that there is dissension amongst ourselves . I think we as a House should attempt to get people to go and educate them so that they will understand co - operation . The hon. the Chief Minister mentioned various crops but we find in touring the Transkei that there is only one standing crop and that is maize . I think it is our duty here to educate people so that those who are interested in horticulture should see that it is a success , and those interested in vegetable-growing should see that farming in that respect is a success , and those who are 103.
interested in maize should see that that is a success . People at home are undernourished although in appearance they seem to be well fed on maize . I think it is our responsibility as members of this House to educate people to try various crops . The hon. the Chief Minister also mentioned arts and crafts which he said could be developed. We have our natural artists , but these people have not been assisted by education in improving their art. There are those at home who can make pipes , but they cannot develop this into a means of livelihood. I am sure the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will not interfere with them if they go into the forests to get wood to make these pipes . In his speech the hon. the Minister of Finance mentioned many things which are important to a state , but the important thing is how the people are going to use this policy speech . The people at home have sent their representatives to the House and they are going to sit and fold their arms and look up to them. It is up to us to make them follow our lead by action and not by words . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition said we must hold on to the plough, and that is the only way to lead some people - to show them that you are practical and not theoretical. I have already said I hope there will be no dissension in the House here on a matter which is of such importance to the people , but the important thing is that individual farming is not going to lead us anyWe should co- operate . There is yet where . another problem and I am thinking of a situation where a man is given an arable allotment and he has no means with which to cultivate that allotment. According to my view those people who can farm properly are those who are in employment and can afford to buy proper implements which means that if we are going to encourage individual farming we shall have to assist people with implements . If we are not prepared to do that we shall be like the man in the film yesterday who just scratched the top of the soil and then went home. This question of agriculture is so important that we should all be agreed on it. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make some comments in connection with the remarks by the hon. the Chief Minister . He has delivered an able statement which touched upon a great many matters which we were anxious should be dealt with. I will try to be as brief as possible as much has been said already on this matter. Thirty years is a very long period when people have been oppressed by drought. It is therefore of great importance to find the reason for such a prolonged period of drought. Some ofyou here will remember when last year I suggested that a committee be appointed to find out the reason for these conditions but because the suggestion was made by a small man it was not taken up , as is usual in a case where a poor man makes suggestions to a group of rich men and they do not listen to him. (Laughter) Day in, day out I have suggested that some investigation should be made as far as drought conditions in these Territories are concerned . May aim would not incline more to the drought than to the fact that even if there is plenty of rain,
conditions in the Transkei do not encourage us to produce as much food as we require . In his policy speech the hon . Minister stated that 50 million bags of maize which would be sufficient for the needs of the whole country could be produced in the Transkei , and yet we cannot produce even a quarter of that amount. What is the source of the difficulty? I find there is some misunderstanding as far as the working of the land is concerned . You will remember that at the Tsolo School of Agriculture a piece of land was set aside for a certain demonstrator . That demonstrator was provided with implements for ploughing the land , as well as with stock, and that experiment was a success. It showed how much that demonstrator could make out of his farming and he even made a surplus . That only lasted as long as he was at school. When a student leaves the school things no longer work so well because of certain conditions he meets with when he returns home to his own location . He has the same extent of land , but the conditions in community do not assist him as he meets certain difficulties which do not permit him to do what he did at the school . These are clear reasons why agriculture is not successful in the Transkei. The land does not belong to the individual. The chiefs or headmen largely have control over the use of the land. A man wants to plough his land but he cannot do so because of certain conditions prevailing in the location . We held a most important meeting in Qumbu attended by over 200 people . We invited agricultural officers to speak about agriculture to the people because of the drought and starvation which occurred last year. There was a little winter rain and the soil was damp , and the agricultural officers advised us to sow wheat. Their advice was accepted by the people when the demonstrators showed them what to do. The difficulty was that after the meeting was over there were no people who followed the advice of the agricultural officers . I tried to encourage one widow who was interested and could plough the land and had the means to cultivate it. Her difficulty was that if she ploughed and sowed wheat, when the wheat had grown the stock would trespass and destroy her crops - stock belonging to people in authority. She said there are certain gentlemen who own horses and who have certain powers which are not defined , and they are feared by people who wish to make progress . The Department of Africulture should take note of this factor and note that it constitutes a difficulty. Such people do not want to work and when work is not being performed they derive some advantage . The people who are interested in ploughing are not in a position to go and turn over their soil when they wish to do so because of this power which is held by certain people who discourage them . There is also this difficulty with com munity ploughing . When they wish to go and plough and the men in authority have not yet taken their stock out of the allotments they will be just wasting their time . They will only find themselves re - sowing their mealies when they should have done so only once . I realised that this widow spoke the truth and that touched me. Steps should be taken to stop this authority which tends to interfere with the proper use of the land by these people. The hon. the Minister
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you only too freely. Do you not remember the good old days of the farmers ' associations in the Transkei ? I am not in the least saying no attempt is being made today, but they hardly ever reach the standard of those days . Now, Soul erosion. what is the cause for all this ? Mr. Chairman , I said that this was a matter of conscience . The hon. the Chief Minister referred to a wonderful immortal statement by Nurkse , and he also quoted freely from what has been said by Professor Hobart Houghton. I would
of Agriculture stated that progress had been made in the cultivation of tea and phormium tenax. That is correct, and there should be progress in those commodities because once those crops have been sown there is no interference by any other authority , but if I plant my own land I have no protection from those authorities. Those are some of the difficulties which should be considered. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I must honestly admit that the contention of this debate is a matter of the exercise of the democratic process . It is rare that such a scholarly factual statement is produced at the bar of political differences at times . The policy statement of the hon. the Chief Minister has been so duly endorsed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I am saying this , Mr. Chairman, because if the two had spoken and we had had to listen, perhaps we would have been better off still. Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be put in a brief way and I shall call this statement a matter of conscience - a matter of consceience for the members of this Assembly; a matter of conscience for the headmen in the Transkei ; a matter of conscience for the chiefs and paramount chiefs of the Transkei; a matter of conscience for all from the sundry to the great, the jester to the paramount chief. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition decided to leave any allusion to the commissions on this matter that were formed in the past, but , Mr. Chairman, you will allow me to make reference to the fact that, having read this statement, one would not be able to help but compare it favourably with the findings of the 1932/1933 Socio-economic Commission, and the hon. the Chief Minister has been an heir to those findings . Allow me again, M. Chairman, to make allusions to the findings of the inter-departmental committee of 1935/1936 , and how the hon. the Chief Minister, in a better way in the circumstances , has been an heir to the findings of that committee . Again, Mr. Chairman, I find that the hon. the Chief Minister has been an heir , and in a better way under very much improved circumstances , to the findings of the Gluckman Commission. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition may therefore perhaps be justified in saying these findings have been made in the past, and it is to be hoped that now we have had to come in on our own , perhaps something will be done. I have said that the statement is a matter of conscience . We have been talking about soil erosion and apparently soil erosion is working hand in hand with soul erosion . How timeous is the statement this morning. Do you not remember the days when almost every humble village school in the Transkei and all over South Africa was , in fact, decorated by a wonderful garden worked by the small boys and small girls ? A good vegetable garden was the pride of every school . What has happened to those gardens ? Soul erosion. Do you not remember the much- awaited days of agricultural exhibitions all over the small towns and villages of the Transkei ? These have disappeared. What is the cause for all this ? No amount of pricking the conscience of leaders will help. The tendency has been to stretch both hands and to expect someone else somewhere to give
like to add to these two he quoted a statement that came out only a few days ago from none other than the Secretary-General of the United Nations , U Thant. He had listened to complaints from the under-developed nations , especially those in Africa , and he said to the delegates who went to his office : "I will just tell you one This question was asked of a great thing. thinker and philosopher : ' What place would you advise me to visit now? ' asked the little prince . 'The planet Earth ' , replied the thinking geographer. The earth, the mother of nations , the haven of individuals , the place for the realisation of ambitious people , and therefore , gentlemen, if you could only go back to the earth of your nations , perhaps if you come back to me you might have a different story . " A matter of conscience - to those who come from Emboland I make this As you drive past Qumbu and you challenge : see that land where people have been scratching it for almost all these years for nothing - land that apparently was never suitable for maizegrowing - gentlemen, as a matter of conscience just tell them to try something else . You will be better representatives . You pass Mount Frere and you move all along that place that is becoming over-populated day in , day out, where soil erosion is the order of the day, where there is no more grazing land, no land even where you can have fields . As you go back, gentlemen, please , you will be better representatives if you can tell them that economic development of the Transkei is a matter of conscience these days . Only a few miles from Umtata is the wonderful land of Libode and Ngqeleni , in particular , so favourably suited for cattle ranching - and what waste of land ! I put this challenge to the hon. representatives as a matter of conscience : Just to bold enough as a member of this Assembly to tell the people over there that that land is so much suited for cattle ranching. All the way as you move around Pondoland , East and West , it is fertile land indeed, but all scratched on all those slopes , and what happens is that the good humus soil is washed down the rivers into the sea - and this happens almost every day. You will be better representatives , even more so that the people who represent that area happen to be people of royal blood and therefore there is no fear that an agitator will be talking. What about the fast- running rivers of the Transkei ? What we must talk about now is how to make In people feed themselves in the Transkei . essence , Mr. Chairman, development is a process of change , a forward movement that implies that man can realise what he is and what he is capable of being and doing. It enables man, the political , the economic , the social , the religious being, to carve a place for himself. Economic development includes the question of man's values and involves his ideas of the good life . 105.
TABLING OF REPORTS
The question of happiness is involved too , and what a day then ( if that day should dawn) when members , in particular from Engcobo, should go back and tell the people that all the efforts of the Government are for the people of Engcobo , so that not all the efforts of the Government must be thwarted . The a representative of the people must be bold enough to say the people are starving . I know, Mr. Chairman, that development is change , and one thing that is always difficult is to change - especially the change of attitudes · but change, although difficult , is essential . Policy statements , economists and social planners will do their work, but unless the people themselves do start we have hardly moved forward. To use the expression of the hon. member for Ngqeleni , we shall be moving in a vicious circle . Without the total participation of the people in the process , little progress can be made. We need political will
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the report of the transactions of the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund for the financial year 1968/1969. APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
I second.
Agreed to . House in Committee
for the progress of the Transkei . Mr. Chairman , it is there for our taking , and it was most pleasing this morning and this afternoon to find there are so many points on which we agree , and so little on which we differ . Now, in addition to political will there must be a willingness to change on the part of the people themselves , for with development cultural changes tend to come up and where through ignorance or indifference these are rejected the whole process is frustrated . That is why we are making an appeal to the hon. members of the Legislative Assembly in particular that as they go back they must know we were dealing with a matter of conscience . We know that drawbacks to acceptance of scientific methods and ideas are the age-old heritage of attitudes , habits and customs . Now, Mr. Chairman, let me end on this note . Economic development is higher and wider than our queueing up for our cheques at the end of this week, and let me make this challenge as we shall be queueing up getting paid for the efforts we have made for the last two weeks : Let us remember there are hundreds and hundreds of people who have not even a morsel for one meal . Economic development is indeed higher and greater than our attaché cases , no matter what they may contain . If indeed , gentlemen, the much repeated phrase "You are the representatives of the people " has to have a meaning, then we must know that people are starving and they can be helped . Whatever help may come for these people , let us remember that much of it is in the ten fingers of our hands. I am thus making an appeal to those at least who still have a conscience : This is a matter of conscience . Thank you, M. Chairman.
The debate on Vote 1 of the Estimates was resumed. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in associating myself with the remarks from this side of the House in connection with the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister , I have to say that in fact this side of the House is of the opinion that the policy speech as tabled before the Assembly is definitely to the benefit of the Transkeian Territories. We have a bright ray of consolation to cling to in the seven-point programme . This reminds me of what we read in the Revelations where it says there was a Holy Covenant of God which had seven seals . Whoever was the draughtsman of the policy speech made a mistake in not consulting me, because they left it at an uneven number and that was " seven" . They could have added three points to that and it could have been a ten-point programme which puts it at an even number of ten. For the people of these parts , in fact, I feel that three things are prerequisite. We have to play our part in society; we have to meet our commitments ; and we have to accept responsibility. It is what remains of the past, working in the present to shape the future , and the backbone of that is sound economic principles . Admittedly the economic future of the Transkei still remains black and nebulous . It depends now on the practical implementation and the whole -hearted implementation of the seven-point programme , as has been defined in the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister. Failure to do that will mean that ours is a generation of broken promises and legislative harassment, and this envisages consultation , extension and whole- hearted participation. I have to refer to the remarks of the hon. the Minister of Education . He made an appeal to the hon. members and that was appealing to their consciences. I only wish, in fact, that he was genuine and whole- hearted in his appeal , because sacrificing conscience for earthly and ephemeral gains is just tantamount to ruining the engine in order to gain speed and the results thereof are as useless as a stone vanishing into a deep pool . What again this seven-point programme envisages I feel , in fact, as has been outlined by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , is sound economic development.
The debate was adjourned. House Resumed
The
COMMITTEE OF
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 30th April, 1970. THURSDAY, 30th APRIL , 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
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use of our land – you find that the hon . members during an election campaign mention nothing about rehabilitation of the soil whatsoever . (Interjections) I am sorry I have to add an unpleasant note , but I am afraid some of the hon. members opposite are responsible for that state of affairs . As I have appealed to you before , I do appeal at this stage that we should transfer to better men who are prepared to leave the Transkei for better fields of pasture . There has been talk of the Transkei taking its place among the foremost agricultural nations . That could not be stressed too strongly, but let us examine some of the drawbacks that accompany this project. It will be for research students to find out why there has always been opposition to these ventures . For instance , in rehabilitation or resettlement you find that people have to shift from their age- old residences to pastures new, and they believe that that is against their custom and tradition , irrespective of what the agricultural officers advise , because they have to abandon the graves of their fathers and fore-fathers and these sometimes have to be ploughed up and made into arable land which, of course, is nothing short of sacrilege in so far as our African minds are concerned . It is you who have got to appeal to the people and explain to them that these ideas are obsolete . Now, coming to the point again where everybody has got to be a farmer in the Transkei , in some way or other we do not find any comparison with that state of affairs anywhere else in the world because in civilized countries , Western countries, the reverse is always the case , where there are fewer farmers than industrialists and other categories . Until we adjust that way of life we shall never come to the goal for which we aim . The hon. the Chief Minister mentioned a very important point in regard to land tenure and even in that you will have to fight against certain traditions , because an African thinks that if he is dispossessed of land then he is nowhere . No matter whether he does not use it for ten or fifteen years , but the system under which we have been brought up is such that every man is entitled to a piece of land once he gets married. We have tried before to influence people to abandon their land , particularly if they are not able to use it properly. We have encouraged settlements such as those near our afforestation schemes where people could get regular employment and certainly have no time to work their land, but we have met with very poor success in that connection too, because the people are of opinion that they must work for a certain time even in our forests , and then return to the Reserves . Iam appealing to hon. members of the Assembly again to put this point before them , that where there is regular employment in the vicinity of any reserve or administrative area some of the people should work in the projects and abandon their land. Of course , there is no legislation which can force people to abandon their land , but laws come from you and as you say you are an important part of the government, please take this very, very seriously before the next election campaign.
The mainstay of a country's economy is agriculture . Agriculture is our economic mainstay and I see nothing outside that ark but a deluge and a cascade of water . In the seven- point programme is included this vicious circle of poverty . Surely poverty- stricken people can never stand the brute facts or the naked truths of the realities of life . That is why it behoves every member of this House to apply himself assiduously to the task. History gives cold comfort to those who believe that despair and grievances will forever be subdued by force . This side of the House is of the opinion that in fact you on that side must accept criticism . Our criticisms are always constructive . They are constructive and they will remain for all time constructive . A fortunate state of affairs for the Transkei to have such an Opposition! (Laughter) We are not engaged in acts of damaging irresponsibility. With those words , Mr. Chairman , I associate myself whole-heartedly with the contentions of this side of the House . MR . C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this is a unique occasion where the lion and the goat stay together , and I think it is an occasion worthy of praise and will be preserved in our memories . I think the Opposition has qualified for an opposition , because it was the first time I have heard the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say he agrees wholeheartedly with our policy. MR. K.M. GUZANA : been closed .
Your ears must have
MR. MADIKIZELA: So much for that, and we are very pleased. I must thank the hon. the Chief Minister for bringing such a debate on his policy . It was a very healthy sign of the progress of his Government. With his look at future planning we shall be so eloquent as to win our errant brothers to our side . (Laughter) At the same time , Mr. Chairman, I think it is time for us to think more deeply and to delve into the barriers which mar our progress . The Transkei happens to be a valuable territory of exteme beauty , bristling with unique and beautiful scenery , interesting both to the explorer and the student of anthropology as well , and the hon. the Chief Minister's appeal to our universities to conduct certain researches into the difficulties faced by the Transkei is a very sound idea , because it is only there where we have students who can conduct researches into the economic prospects of the Transkei. Of course, that is a long-term policy and certainly very , very expensive , but we shall expect the findings of those researches in the future . In the meantime we can do something also , particularly the · hon. members of this Legislative Assembly, if they would apply themselves with the same zeal which they apply to an election compaign and appeal to the people to break the superstitious barriers that exist so that we should have a common cause towards the advancement of the Transkei. Now , just taking a few points , Mr. Chairman - for instance , the conservativeness and apathy of the people towards our rehabilitation and other betterment schemes which, of course , would lead to more and more economic
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with one spirit we accept the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance . He 107 .
acted wisely because what counts first, as far as the people are concerned, is that they get enough . Through all these years there is this one important thing and that is what he has brought before us today. When he encourages agriculture he encourages that people should be able to produce food and eat. They always say that public health knows no colour bar. All people must be happy in order to produce a people that has wisdom. Professor Jabavu , when opening a farmers ' congress , once said: We are made of earth, we derive our living from the earth , and we shall return to earth. That meant we are closely related to the earth and we should look after it in order to get a living from it. I was pleased when I understood that the production of vegetables was being encouraged because of the scarcity of milk these days . I want to say that the Government should make certain provisions for marketing the produce to encourage the people to use their land, so that they will know they can get some income . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture should see to it that the officers dealing with lands do their work conscientiously. Some of them wait until the allotments which have been ploughed have to be inspected, instead of contacting people during the period when people are ploughing their allotments . We are very grateful for the assistance given to people by the Government during this drought, and when I left home people said as this assistance has come to an end , please when I return home would I bring more assistance from the Government. This Government has no control over the weather , but the Government could have control over water and lead water to the lands . If that is done by the Government, we will then plough whenever we want to plough and not wait until the rain comes. People want bulls and rams . This is the complaint made by the people - that in rehabilitated areas they can buy stock at subsidized prices , while those who have not accepted rehabilitation have got to buy at the full price . THE CHIEF MINISTER : correct.
discussion on this epoch-making and memorable policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister , I would like to implore the hon. members not to misconstrue any repetitions we may make as being emanating from people who have not outgrown our scholastic days , when in debating societies we used to stand up and say: "Mr. Chairman, I wish to corroborate the corroborative statement ofthe corroborator who has corroborated the statement. " ( Laughter) Such repetitions will be made purely and simply for stress and emphasis . I would therefore like , from the very outset , to repeat what has been said with regard to the fact that the hon. members of this House have decided for a change to lift the discussion of this policy speech above party politics , thereby echoing the clarion call of the hon. the Chief Minister to go down into the realities which beset our young state today . The greatest appreciation goes to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who set the pace for his colleagues in this respect, and contributed a most constructive appreciation of the facts contained in this policy speech . I have been sitting here listening to the various speakers and have noted that there has been so much stress laid on agriculture that some of the members might likely suffer from mental indigestion at this stage , which is likely to result in intellectual constipation. However , we (Laughter) cannot run away from the fact that agriculture is the basis for the develoment economically of the Transkei . This policy speech can be described as a challenge to you and me , and to all of us in this House , and a challenge which calls for self- analysis on the part of each and every one of us in this House , and a challenge which requires each and every one of us to ask ourselves the question as to whether we are true The hon. the representatives of the people. Chief Minister has thrown the gauntlet at us and it is for us, as representatives of the people , to see and know what we have to do about it. That is the responsibility of each and every one of us . There are several aspects of this speech which might , when put into practice , lead to several controversies . In the words of the hon. the Minister of Education yesterday, it will be for the paramount chiefs , it will be for the chiefs , it will be for the headmen , it will be for the members of this Legislative Assembly, to see to it that they give all they are worth in assisting while this is being put into practice . I know there are times when some of us will find ourselves in a position where we shall have to shirk our responsibilities in order to gain a few votes here and there. I may quote an instance where there was a suggestion to the effect that land will have to be expropriated from the too old, the lazy and lethargic people. I know if that were to be put into practice there will be some political charlatans to say: Look at the Government - they have taken away your land because you are too old and now you have nothing to live on because your land has been taken away by this Government. ( Interjections ) I am glad the hon. member for Umtata is endorsing just what I am saying , and I am glad that yesterday when he stood up to speak he never uttered a word in this respect which was put and posed to this House as a question. Instead, he left a most important part of this
No, that is not
If they were available at MR. MAJIJA : subsidized prices I would buy them. As the hon. the Chief Minister has said this stock can be bought at subsidized prices I will tell the people so when I get home. We are very thankful to the hon. the Chief Minister who tells us we can obtain rams . I will promise the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock I will visit his office . I remember that in 1962 I wanted to buy a bull and there was a certain White man dealing with that transaction. He told me I would never get such a bull because I did not live in a rehabilitated That man was Mr. Bosman of Umtata. area. We are no pleased to hear we can buy bulls . We would also be pleased to get good milking cows at subsidized rates so that we could have milk for our children, and when we show you a photograph of starving children you should not say these children come from Biafra. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I hope I shall be the last speaker in this debate . In contributing to the 108.
lead to a bone factory in the Transkei as you have in Midway near Sinawane in Johannesburg. These animals also have horns and hooves from which gelatine can be manufactured as is done in Krugersdorp. There is also a tannery just near Bizana , in Redoubt. This could be done also in the Transkei . Now , the hon. the Chief Minister also advised on the tourism industry which we really do not understand . That is an industry which is there for the taking . We do not need to build big factories for it. We merely have to make certain arrangements as suggested in this policy speech. Surely the question of whether our naked children will be photographed or not does not come into the question because whether we have tourism as an industry or not these travellers who travel on the main road between East London and Durban will continue taking photographs of our naked children, unless we preach to our people that they must clothe their children . (Interjections ) I think the hon. member for Umtata should not take a prejudiced attitude in this matter because I have seen these people taking photographs of children on the Mtentu and on the cuttings near Idutywa , where the children go about naked herding the stock. We were happy that the question of the natural ability of our people to make certain commodities was also considered in this policy speech. I think many hon. members here will know that there is a gentleman in Umtata who is able to make such things as basket chairs and I think his products are equal to any in the country. He could be assisted to develop that little factory. I am sure we have seen the beautiful and artistic work of people who make ornaments out of cattle horns displayed just next to this garage , and also walking- sticks out of wood. I think such people should be assisted to develop their arts further. We were so amused yesterday when the question of Xhosa pipes was mentioned. I think it was precisely because it was mentioned along with the question of the "hippies " , but I feel if such an industry could be developed it would assist our people a lot.
and went on to give us a joke about nude children. This is a very important aspect of this speech , to which I had hoped most of the hon. members across the floor would have contributed so that we should know their views in this respect. This was posed as a question, as I have said, and it needed comment from the hon. members . Mr. Chairman, I shall come to a very important part because these things have got to be said, and they have got to be said here . The hon. the Chief Minister has given us an outline of what he thinks will have to be followed in the Transkei in the future , in order to expedite the economic viability of the Transkei . All day yesterday and today we appeared to be ad idem as far as the matters contained herein are concerned, but most unfortunately I think it is not like that as far as some other aspects are concerned. It is a pity that we are closing the debate now and we shall not have other comments on this matter from some of the hon. members across the floor , like the hon. member for Umtata, Mr. Mnyani . We must congratulate the hon. the Chief Minister on his suggestion with regard to the representation of the Transkei Government on the Board of Controllers of the XDC . That body, as you know, was constituted to step up the industrial development of the Transkei and the Ciskei , and it is only equitable that we should have members on the Board of Directors who shall advise as far as the development of the Transkei economically is concerned. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Would you accept that such representation should be a non- political one, his appointment based on merit only, so that he should continue whether the government changes or otherwise ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It would, I think, be a most sober attitude to take . For instance , in this policy speech the hon. the Chief Minister made points with regard to the establishment of industries as follows : - The question of the availability of raw material ; accessibility to the railway; availability of water and electricity; the question of labour . We are always looking at certain points where we feel that industries could be established . We are looking
MR. K.M. GUZANA : And the smoke is very cool , you know, because it comes from far away. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes. Also we are always said to see how much money is lost to our people who buy old cars , and these cars just break down and are dumped at their places of residence and remain there for years. I have seen lorryloads of scrap iron being removed from the Transkei at a very minimum charge . I think it is about 50c . a load . There is a place in Krugersdorp which devotes itself to the foundry industry - that is , melting old iron and producing fresh iron for use in industry. I think if at all some company could be formed (I don't think all these should be the responsibility of the Government , otherwise we shall be called a socialistic state ) there could be such an industry melting this iron and I think with all these scrap cars around here that could be a very good industry because , so long as we still have our people who are not able to buy new cars and are cheated by the garages who sell them scrap cars which break down almost at once , we shall continue to have tons and tons
for a time when the peasants on the flats of Qamata and St. Mark's , ( I hope I won't be taken as partisan when I mention that) where there is irrigation already in operation , could all grow cotton, where a textile factory could be established at Qamata which is the railhead , where there could be electricity easily available from Escom in Queenstown , where there is plenty of water from the Lubisi Dam , where there is abundance of labour . In fact, even without cotton being grown first as a raw material I believe that such a factory could be established in view of the fact that there is a Good Hope Factory in Zwelitsha where no cotton is grown, and Cyril Lord's in East London when no cotton is grown around there. Further, this corporation could be advised on the establishment of many other industries. I have always seen children and women collecting bones and putting them in bags and selling them to the traders . We have so many cattle and horses which die every year either of starvation or drought, and these bones could
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of scrap iron in the Transkei . However , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , that is all I have to say and I think the hon. the Chief Minister will not have much to say because by and large the consensus of opinion is just the same as far as this policy speech is concerned . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
another went to the Republic some time last year, allegedly to explore work avenues for the citizens of the Transkei . On their return they failed to make a report to this Chamber. They shilly-shallied and , in fact, were so reluctant to make that statement that when finally the then Minister of the Interior stood up to make a reply, his utterances that day were not characterized by sound and fury signifying nothing, even if accompanied by popular applause . On this occasion he came forward with a curt statement that in fact they had had fruitful discussions , and sat down. What was that intended to mean? I wonder what the hon. members who are Government supporters went home to report to their constituents after we adjourned the session? We on this side of the House reported nothing because there was nothing to report. I further want to charge the hon. the Minister of Finance with (shall I call it ?) selfconsciousness on his part. I hate to use the word. In his endeavour to narrow the gap between the different colour groups in South Africa those in the know have detected that he has put himself up to the equivalent of the Chairman of the Coloured Council , and there he stopped short.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : As the House will notice , there is an amendment by the hon. Mr. R. Madikizela to this Vote and I call upon him to move. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance has been praised so much over his policy speech this morning that I feel I must now pull him down a peg or two in case he should have exalted ideas about himself. The amendment appearing in my name seeks to reduce his salary by an amount of R4000 . He cannot get away with so much money when he has failed so lamentably to account for his stewardship. It is his especial duty to exercise strict and proper surveillance over his Cabinet Ministers and in this respect I charge him with failure . I wish to draw the attention of this House to the picnic set-up in the Cabinet. It is a never-ending source of amazement to me that whenever there is an installation of a chief all the Cabinet Ministers tend to converge on that point . One has to ask oneself what the attraction is. Is it the feast perhaps ? Is it the prospect of a social mix-up? One assumes that they should be busy in their offices and they cannot afford to attend all the functions that come their way. There are two aspects to an invitation : You can either accept or
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
MR. MADIKIZELA : Less than you do? That is a revelation. He has often been heard to say that the Government of the Transkei pays better than ever the Bunga did; that where the Bunga paid a minimum of 25c . he pays something like 50c. THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , the minimum is 60c. , not 50c.
decline , and proper etiquette will accept. Perhaps the idea is to go and escort the newly appointed chief as a political associate. In this Chamber only two members are required to escort a new member for the ceremony of
MR. MADIKIZELA: Well , in 1940 the purchasing power of 25c . was much more than 60c. today. He no doubt remembers the time when he could have walked into a shop and bought a suit to order for five guineas. Today he cannot do so under R50 , so that in fairness to his labourers he should be paying them five times 60c.
swearing in, and just to complete the picnic spirit for the hon. Minister , the hon. the Minister of Finance stressed the need for saving , and I would suggest in this regard that he should set the pace . A single Kombi would satisfy the requirements of conveyance for his Cabinet Ministers instead of the use of six heavy
THE CHIEF MINISTER : to pay the tax I will do that.
vehicles (Laughter) the purchase price of which would do well as an additional grant to the social pensioners . The hon. the Minister of Finance gave us the figure of R60 per annum payable bi-monthly to a social pensioner a plausible sum if you look at the figure " R60 " , but if you reduce that to a daily allowance you find it works out at something like 16c. , a mere pittance and just enough to enable the man to buy a loaf of bread and a single cup of tea for the day, while his other helpings will have to be washed down with water.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : does not work for that.
It is a gift.
No, he gets less .
If you are willing
MR. MADIKIZELA: I am not going to take seriously his suggestion that we should economize by not buying liquor . On occasion he has been known to entertain lavishly in that respect, and I am sure he is not going to begrudge us a sundowner on the strength of the windfall he has thought fit to give us . His recommendation to us that we should smoke cheap cigarettes cannot be taken seriously either. That is in pursuit of the interests of separate development only.
He MR. K.M. GUZANA : I second the amendment. MR . G.T. VIKA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , one would have hoped that a reasonable person after receiving the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister would have withdrawn this amendment. In trying to listen to the reasons for his amendment I find I cannot waste my time
MR. MADIKIZELA : So it is a gift - I grant you that, but it is your duty to keep those people as far removed from the cemetery as possible. I further charge the hon. the Minister of Finance with connivance at the acts of irresponsibility on the part of his Cabinet Ministers . He and 110.
in explaining or refuting any of them, and it seems to me he just wanted the salary reduced. To mention just his last point - the increase in the wages of the labourers . He has stated that the increase has been from 25c . to 50c. and he further states that the value of money has deAt the same time he would like the clined. salary of the hon. the Chief Minister to be cut down. It is only a brave man who could remain only a in the position of Chief Minister dedicated man, a man who is dedicated to the cause of his people . Here at home people are doubting his leadership because they were used to the leadership of the White man. If you go outside the Transkei the enemies of the Territories deny our people work and say they must go back to the Transkei because our Chief Minister has work for them . In other words , sometimes you will find that he has no supporter either at home or outside the Transkei , but because of the cause of his people he has stayed and he is dedicated to lead them . Since 1964 we have been informed that the Republican Government has steadily increased its financial assistance to the Transkei. I hope we should realise that this does not just happen automatically. People who give their money always want to see that it is handled properly before they can give again. The fact that the Republican Government has continually given this financial assistance to the Transkei (and not only given it continually, but has increased it over the years) shows that they are satisfied with the leadership or that our hon. Chief Minister is handling his funds well. We all know that the hon. the Chief Minister is also in charge of Secondly, before these moneys the finances . can be given , representations to the Republican Government showing the need for them and why these moneys should be given must be made. Someone here is howling and (Interjections) saying this money is ours . Since when have you known it is yours ? In other words , Mr. Chairman, it shows the trouble the hon. the Chief Minister has taken and it shows that he knows and worries himself about the requirements of the Transkei and its people. Only yesterday we were given his policy speech and for the first time we have agreed in this House and even those outside have praised it. In this policy speech we have been given a survey of the Transkei at the present time and suggestions have been made for the steps to be taken to change the present situation for the better. Now, it is only a person who has the interests of the Transkei people at heart who can spend so much time in thinking about the progress of the Transkei , and is it in appreciation of all these efforts that the hon. member from the Opposi-
should have followed the speeches he made and I submit it is because of his going out, stating what is taking place in the Transkei and explaining the needs of the Transkei , that we have this increased grant from the Repuhlican Government. I think it has shown us the reason for the amendment when the hon. member spoke about the Ministers ' cars , suggesting they should be give a single Kombi . It is not because he sees any waste in the buying of the other cars , it is because of jealousy. ( Laughter) I think he must, before he puts himself in this position, go back to his people and show them there is some leadership in him, because if the people would be convinced that he is a leader they may one day buy him a big car. (Laughter) We have been told that the hon. the Chief Minister has connived at the actions of Cabinet Ministers and even this , Mr. Chairman, is not a reason for curtailing his salary. If the Ministers have got the option to say Yes or No when they have been invited to these functions (and , in fact, I think the installation of a chief in these Territories is not an ordinary event) I do not think anyone can say they have done anything wrong if they attend the functions . Mr. Chairman, I have said that after this policy speech I never expected anyone to have the guts to ask for the curtailing of the Minister's salary . With these few words I oppose the amendment.
-
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 1 of the Estimates was resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall continue with the discussion on the amendment and I shall allow one more speaker and then the hon. Minister can reply. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, on this point of the number of speakers , it has been indicated to us that in order to canvass a Vote for a particular department we need only introduce one amendment and that is an amendment relating to the Minister's salary. Under that head we can canvass any point upon which we require comment or explanation , or on which we would like to make critical observation. This eliminates the necessity of putting an amendment to every item in that Vote and therefor it is a bit harsh on us to say one speaker will now have an opportunity to speak when we could have put in a hundred amendments .
tion is suggesting that his salary should be reduced? One would have expected that instead of an amendment that the salary should be reduced he would move that it should be increased.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : speakers don't even refer to the Vote .
But the
MR. K.M. GUZANA: You would be out of order if you introduced that.
MR. GUZANA: So we crave your indulgence , Mr. Chairman, in regard to the wide scope that has been given to this one amendment.
MR. VIKA: Now and again we have been told that the Chief Minister has gone outside the Transkei to the Republic to make representations for our people to get work. Those of you who have been interested enough in his movements
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, while I agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on his observations I would appeal to him to appeal to his flock of sheep (Laughter) to please be relevant and deal with
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to. I also read the Report of the Public Service Commission as well as those who are employed . Turning to page 14 , after reading a report appearing on page 12 Employees who have been dismissed . This is very surprising . On that page we read: "Discharged; discharged; discharged " . I wonder who will see to the domestic affairs of those who have been dismissed? If these people have misappropriated money it is a different matter, but this is what we find : " Robbery ; abscondment; drunkenness ; driving XG vehicles under influence of liquor ; negligent in discharge of duties " etc. Now, these people require training in their duties and it would seem to me that there is some negligence there , and that it is never taken into account that such people being dismissed , it is the wives and children of those people who are the sufferers. Should those people not be warned first?
the Vote in question , instead of talking about all sorts of things which have no bearing on this financial issue . I appeal also to the hon. members to please be relevant and to the point.
·
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , we have been asked by the hon. the Chief Minister to deal with relevant questions and I shall try to keep to the point. Mr. Chairman and hon . members , we received this speech in which is included certain duties which we have to perform after leaving the House . His department, the Department of Finance , should establish certain committees and investigations connected with this policy speech should be carried out. All these things have to be attended to , and others which I have not made mention of, and they all require expenditure of money. When I look at his Vote I find nothing to indicate that there is any provision for this in the coming financial year. Looking at page 2 , under Miscellaneous , and on page 6 also under Miscellaneous , to find out if appropriate estimates have been provided , Ifind nothing has been allocated in connection with what is embodied in his policy speech. It is likely that I have overlooked some provision to meet these points mentioned in his speech. If we look at the Controller and AuditorGeneral's Report for 1968/1969 , on page 4, paragraph 15 , we read: "Up to the time of writing the control over rents had not reached a stage sufficiently satisfactory for audit purposes. " This is under " Rent paid in connection with Government buildings" , and the Auditor says there is nothing satisfactory in this regard and there is no column to show satisfactorily that there are buildings as well as rentals which have been paid by people occupying that property . There is a fear that some ofthe moneys collected under this head may be lost, or that no satisfactory explanation has been given showing that those moneys have been placed under the wrong headings . This matter is stated to have been sent to the Secretary of the Chief Minister as well as the Secretary of the Public Service Commission. The Auditor complains that he has no means of inspecting such moneys . This statement was made in connection with the finanAnother financial year cial year 1968/1969 . has commenced and we are now in the second financial year. We require an explanation as to whether this matter has been put right and the money so paid is accounted for. There is a complete list of the buildings involved. Turning to page 2 , Lower Authorities , you will recall that we spoke about this matter last year and the Auditor- General's Report stated that he would audit the books of these lower authorities although there is no provision in law for him to do so. This is his condition : If there be an amendment during the 1970 session of the Republican Parliament to the Transkei Constitution Act with retrospective effect so as to legalize the auditing of the books of the bodies concerned . Have you such a provision as far as the bills are concerned which have not yet been placed before us , or is there a notice of motion so that this matter may be remedied by the Republican Government? The Auditor states this should be put into effect during 1970. The Republican Parliament will sit in July and we hope , therefore , that this matter will be attended
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE :
They are .
MR. GUZANA : There are circumstances which require the dismissal of the person concerned , but what we see reflected here shows that people are just summarily dismissed . Mr. Chairman and MR. R.E. MAPASSA : hon. members , I will bypass the main amendment and will deal at length with the last point in connection with the families of the people who are dismissed for misconduct. It is not something new , but it is traditional with any government that when an employee has misappropriated money he should get into trouble. As regards his wife and children , he should see that he provides for them before he gets into trouble . There is a saying that a commoner's child will only benefit when a royal son is being That is why those who are still in scolded . employment should learn from those who suffer in his presence . An adult should not be carried He should learn to walk for to any extent . himself and each employee , therefore , should learn to look after his own bread . We cannot do anything about this situation . An employee must care for himself because in being given employment the idea is that he should keep that employment. If one is employed as a herdboy one cannot hope to be retained if one allows the stock to trespass on other people's land , neither can anyone expect to be retained if he does not do his job . If there is any suggestion that anyone who fails to do what he is employed for should be kept on , let us co - operate and see that our sons are taught to keep their jobs . It should not be the responsibility of one individual - I mean the hon. the Chief Minister , who is our treasurer . I want to say that as far as this matter is concerned I can suggest no remedy except that each employee must try to keep his job. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if we follow what has been said by the hon. member for Kentani , that we should just summarily discharge these employees , we could say of him that the day he was born his mother made a mistake by not strangling him . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : withdraw that.
112 .
You should
MR. GUZANA: .... and deductions should be made from his salary at the end of the month.
MR. GUZANA: There is nothing wrong with that. He does not realise that we are protecting the interests of our children when we speak in We are giving them a training this strain. when we ask the Government to treat them mercifully.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : incorrigible cases?
MR. GUZANA : You will always find those people. When we say you should not dismiss them summarily we do not suggest that people who are worthless should be retained , but we do complain against the frequent expulsion of employees. On page 19 it is stated that the employees will be taught by the Government as far as financial matters are concerned , and they will be given 100% subsidies . When you look at page 16 you will find there is a Public Service Law Certificate mentioned . With regard to those people who receive this 100% subsidy, are there any conditions laid down that they should work for the Government for a certain period afterwards? Some of them who qualify for this Public Service Law Certificate and who may be left with only one subject to write may turn to something else and we would lose such a person. If there are no such conditions , will the Government consider making it a condition that they work for a certain number of years for the Under Miscellaneous on page 6 Government? of the Estimates, item E.13, you will find "Reimbursement of Lower Authorities ' funds misappropriated by government officials " . We have often brought a suggestion in connection with this. I am pleased that the item has been
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: But that has been done. Look at the cases which have been reprimanded. There are many of them .
MR. GUZANA: There are only eight repremands reflected on this page. Look at page 13. 56 were discharged and only 8 reprimanded. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What about these people who just leave their work and go? These absconders? What would you do about them ?
MR. GUZANA: I saw the number of those who have absconded, but probably when the employee found out their conditions of service they had no alternative . That is why we speak in this manner. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But those absconders are included in the 56 who were discharged in the non-prescribed posts. MR. GUZANA: What we want to find out is whether those people are given an opportunity to explain. Let us take this one paragraph of people who have not turned up to work. There are circumstances which may prevent them. Sometimes their homes are far away and in that case they are not in a position to let the authorities know immediately, and then they are just told to take their jackets and go when they do turn up to work. Who is responsible for firing you in your job? (Laughter) If we followed your system we would have fired you long ago, because when we go to your offices all we find there are newspapers scattered all over and nothing on your desks in connection with your work. (Laughter) I am not going to say such things, but whenever I say anything you know it is the truth. I know you are frightened that I might mention your names. Now, let us turn to page 14 where it speaks of drunkenness . When these children are at work, when do they have time to go and have a drink? Is it because they have such an easy time that they can walk down York Road during office hours and have a tot? Are working hours strictly kept? When they leave the office do they ask permission and give a reasonable excuse for leaving the office ? In many of the offices which I have visited during the tea- break I find it is not tea that is being taken, but some other liquid . This is the reason why the output of work does not correspond with the number of hours worked. I will say outright that if we want the work to be done by the employees the Government should be stricter , but strictness does not mean dismissal. We want a person to be punished whilst that person is retained in employment . He should not be given any increment if he is entitled to one at the end of the year , or he should be demoted .... THE MINISTER cases that is done.
OF FINANCE :
What about
reduced, but now and again we have suggested that this does not reflect well on our chiefs. I think the trouble is that the chiefs allow the secretaries to deal with this money and the secretaries just misuse the funds. I see they are nodding their heads. I am challenging them (Laughter) because this secretary is the person who seems to be the shield for all their sins . The chiefs should take more interest in these funds so that it should not be necessary for us to refund these amounts. On page 2 of the Controller and Auditor - General's Report you will find that losses written off amount to R709. This amount was misappropriated during the financial year 1966/1967. That is not a good reflection on us. I request the hon. the Chief Minister to impose certain conditions as far as the chiefs are concerned . I say they are his people because they are under his department , and he should try to stop these losses so that we will not be regarded as idiots who try to fill up leaking buckets . In this regard, too , I would say that the tribal authorities should be taught how to prepare estimates . Some of the authorities merely say the Government does not give them any money and yet they never make application to the Government. I would again ask you, Mr. Minister of Finance , to send out a circular to all the tribal authorities and in that circular indicate what things require financial assistance so that they may be in a position to prepare their estimates. CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up here on a matter which has been discussed for many, many days. We on this side of the House came to an agreement when a motion of no confidence was discussed. Now we are discussing a policy speech
In most
113 .
delivered by the hon. the Chief Minister. On that matter this side of the House as well as the hon. members across the floor arrived at an agreement. One of the Opposition members moved a motion that the Chief Minister's salary should be reduced and he mentioned very many facts. He mentioned the case of a chief being installed and the Chief Minister goes with his Cabinet to attend that instal.ation . He also mentioned the hon. the Chief Minister going He to the Republic to discuss employment. also spoke of the increase in the salary of the Chief Minister . One of the hon. members said if you point a finger at someone you must remember that the other three fingers are pointing at yourself. I do not know where the hon. member of the Opposition got his information from because the increments have been given all over. It has been proved in this House that
submitted during September are left lying in the secretary's office . There is a tendency for the clerks to remain in one district for so long that they choose sides like other people . I do not say these clerks should be transferred , but I am merely stating for the information of the hon. Minister that the clerks remain for such lengthy periods in these districts that they neglect to do their work. Another matter which I would like the hon. the Minister of Finance to note is in connection with members of the tribal authorities who are not paid sufficiently, though they spend time over administrative duties in their home districts . The part played by these people is of great importance in keeping the peace and in dealing with administrative matters , and they go to the chiefs ' or headmens's places to deal with matters affecting the people . I think he has noted that we also believe that the fee of R1 for labour recruits should be paid to the tribal authority. The national road runs through Qumbu and it is the main road through Qumbu. A great many accidents occur along that road because of the heavy traffic . Many vehicles travel along that street and there are three garages there. We have asked that lights be erected in that street because of the danger of accidents. I also wish to mention Item C.2 of the Estimates , on page 6. Last year the vote was R2,500 and this year it has been increased to R3,500 . The request I wish to make is that telephones should be installed at the homes of the chiefs , because the chiefs keep the peace in this country . Whenever there are disturbances in the locations the chiefs have to contact the police and if telephones are installed they will be able to do so easily, as well as being able to contact all government offices . This is a matter of urgency and I ask that it be attended to as soon as possible .
the hon. the Chief Minister efficiently carries out his duties and it is justifiable that his salary should be increased. Recently we moved a motion that the Transkeian Territories should acquire more land , but the Opposition opposed it. MR. GUZANA : What has that to do with this discussion ?
CHIEF MOSHESH : I am trying to suggest that the salaries of the Opposition members should be decreased and that our salaries should be increased. The hon. member on the Opposition side has asked what this has to do with the matter in hand. I want to make it clear to him that people whose salaries should be increased are of one type . He has referred us to books which have been audited by the Transkei Government. He has been given the opportunity to increase the Opposition side so that he can overtake the Government side , if and when he succeeds . At all times they remark on this and refer to matters which are of importance to the Transkei Government. I do not think if the Opposition comes into power our salaries would have been increased as has been the case .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in order to allow members to approach the agents of the insurance companies with regard to their third- party insurance this afternoon, I hope to propose the adjournment of the House at 3.45 , and I would remind them that they need not go to their homes. All the insurance companies have agents in Umtata . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have not much of a task in replying to the observations of the hon. members on my Vote . I will first reply to the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Mr. Ramsay Madikizela . His contention in asking the House to reduce the salary of the Chief Minister is that the Chief Minister has no control over the Ministers . In reply to that I can assure him that the Ministers of my Cabinet need no control . It is very rarely that the Ministers of the Transkei Cabinet all attend the installation of chiefs but it sometimes becomes necessary for one Minister to represent the Chief Minister in the installation of those important people in our administration and at times it happens that one Minister belongs to that particular region . I wish to assure the House that the Ministers of the Cabinet are responsible people -· people who are conscious of the fact that public funds hould not be misused. Now, replying shortly to my friend , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , in his observations about the amount of money which should have
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will associate myself with the remarks of the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition and will start where he left off when he was speaking about the tribal authorities . He stated it would be a great saving of work if they were only taught how to submit their estimates. I want to say to the hon. the Minister of Finance that there are certain bureau clerks in the districts and those clerks are a link between the Department of Finance and the tribal authorities. I would like the hon. the Minister of Finance to listen to what I am going to say about certain clerks . I think at some other time he stated that it was the duty of the bureau clerks to teach the secretaries and the tribal authorities . From my own experience I do not say that this affects all the districts. From what I have seen, these clerks take the position occupied by the magistrate and they receive complaints instead of teaching. The tribal authorities submit their estimates of revenue to these bureau clerks so that in turn they can transmit them to Umtata . We find through experience that in some of the districts the estimates which should have been
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been voted to meet the expenditure on committees which may be appointed to go into the future of the Transkei financially, I have to assure him that any expenditure to be met by the Government on any matter which comes up all of a sudden is usually met from the reserve fund , so there should be no fear if these funds are not provided for in the Estimates. The expenditure from this fund is usually tabled in this House in order that members should see it. As regards the hon. member's observations on the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral , page 4, this is a matter for when the Vote of the Department of Roads and Works is being discussed , but I wish to assure the hon. member that the Cabinet has thoroughly gone into this matter because the Department of Roads and Works submitted that they were not in a position to value all the government buildings in the Transkei and the Cabinet has decided to amend the regulation with regard to payment of rent by the officers of the government, in order that the officers should pay according to their salaries instead of according to the value of the building except in cases where the buildI am just making ings are of inferior type . The matter will be an observation on that. dealt with by the Minister of Roads and Works .
MR. GUZANA : Even matters with constitutional consequences ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes, if we find we are in a corner , and that it is not going to prejudice the House. MR. GUZANA: It should have been motivated by this Assembly and I think the Government should explain that. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Coming to the summary dismissal of officers , I regret that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should have adopted this negative attitude , knowing as I do that he is a very responsible person. If I understood him correctly , he wants officers who have offended the Government seriously in the most disgraceful manner to be retained in the establishment. If the hon. members will look at page 11 of the Transkei Public Service Commission's Report, this is the page that refers to officers holding prescribed posts . Most of the officers that have been disciplined have been fined and reprimanded , but I am unable to understand how the Government can retain an officer who has absconded . In any event it is rare that officers holding prescribed or non-prescribed posts are discharged without having been reprimanded in cases involving drunkenness . They are usually reprimanded , fined and only when they persist in the offence does the Public Service Commission or the department concerned decide to discharge them . Now, it is always in the interests of the Government that the Public Service Commission decides to dispense with the services of an officer, and I am sure you are all aware of the damage which is being done to the vehicles of the department as a result of this excessive habit of drinking on the part of your sons. I hope the Opposition will support the Government in taking drastic action against these people.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : May I just ask a question on that? Mr. Chairman, I raised the matter because there was this observation to the effect that the rent register would be submitted to the Secretary of the Public Service Commission and the Secretary of the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance for consideration, and that certain accounting difficulties had been eliminated. I just wanted to get a comment on that, whether it had been done and whether it was still necessary if there had been a change . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , that is right.
MR. GUZANA : MR. GUZANA : Well, why refer me to the Minister of Roads and Works ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They are not only a danger to the vehicles of this Government , but also to the lives of the passengers , and the punishment usually meted out by the courts is usually very , very severe in these cases. Now, coming to the question of bursaries which the hon. member raised , bursary holders at the University of Fort Hare are bound contractually to serve the state for a period which is generally equal to the period which they spend at a university at the Government's expense . Coming to the question of misappropriation of lower authorities ' funds , which was also raised by the hon. member for Qumbu, Chief Majeke, it is indeed regrettable that this sort of behaviour should occur almost every year and everywhere , but it should be appreciated that, like all other nations , we have our teething troubles . Unfortunately the clerks who have been put at the disposal of these lower authorities have been under no proper control or supervision until my department decided to transfer these officers to the Department of Justice so that they should be controlled by the magistrates . Now, in future all bureau clerks who are attached to the magistrates ' offices will be transferred
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Because it comes up under her Vote. Now, the question of auditing the accounts of lower authorities : I am happy to inform you that at the last session of the Republican Parliament the Transkei Constitution Act was amended. We are now in a position to introduce a finance bill this session to rectify the position, so you will find this in the bill that is coming before the House this session. MR. GUZANA : Do I understand that the Transkei Constitution Act has already been amended? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : amended during the last session.
We warn them regularly.
Yes , it was
MR. GUZANA : You see, I was ignorant of that because I did not see any motivation for that amendment from this Assembly - that is why. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , we deal with these matters departmentally sometimes. 115 .
to the Department of Justice and they will be directly under the supervision of the magistrate of the district. It is only the regional authority clerks that will not be transferred . They will fall under the region . Now, as regards the misappropriation of funds by secretaries of tribal authorities , I wish to join you , Sir , in your appeal to the tribal heads to see that they exercise strict control over these officers and I would also appeal to the tribal authority heads to see Many of that they appoint educated people . these authorities take old men who have been pensioned or have become useless in the teachNow, as regards allowances ing profession. to members of tribal authorities , a point raised by the hon. member for Qumbu, I regret to have to inform him that the Treasury does not find its way clear towards voting money to this service , in that all the funds of the tribal authority go towards the tribal fund and these funds are usually built up from fees and fines which have been imposed in the chief's court. However, there is nothing to stop the tribal authority from submitting the estimates to the magistrate and motivating whatever requests they make on any Every case is usually dealt with on its vote.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I have this announcement to make : The members are asked to be seated in the Assembly Hall at 1.45 this afternoon in order to be paid their sessional allowances. APPROPRIATION BILL SUPPLY
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House should now convert itself into committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in terms of procedure we should now proceed to Vote 2 , but as the Assistant Secretary for Education, Mr. Byleveldt , will be away on official duties in Pretoria next week, in consultation with the hon. Ministers of Justice and Education we have decided that we go on with Vote 3.
own merits , but in practice we do not subsidize tribal authorities in order to pay subsistence and travelling allowances for councillors. As regards telephone applications , these are usually made to the Postmaster-General , and if any tribal authority wishes to obtain the assistance of my department we are always willing to assist that particular tribal authority - not financially, but in making the application. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have no doubt that we shall not be divided on this Vote and I move that Vote 1 be adopted and passed by this House .
POLICY STATEMENT : MINISTER OF EDUCATION Mr. Chairman , Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly :
Education is the foundation of every nation's existence , its survival and future development. Consequently, the salvation, the vitality and the ideals for the future of a nation must be revealed in its educational system and philosophy. Education is the factor which binds a people irrevocably to its country, constituting as it does the the nerve centre regulating the necessary growth and development; it provides resilience to conserve those things which identify a people ; it is the source of inspiration for a nation's hope and expectations for the future . Education keeps a nation conscious of its history upon which the present is founded and from which it must derive its inspiration for the future .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, you need not put the amendment. The hon. the Chief Minister's explanation is satisfactory and I think he is beginning to learn to do his work now. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , since the mover of the amendment has indicated his intention to withdraw, and has so withdrawn, I agree to the withdrawal .
In short, the education and training of a nation must be distinctive and national in character.
The sum of R885,000 under Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , was passed unanimously to stand part of the schedule.
I therefore believe , Mr. Chairman , that a nation will only have achieved true adulthood once it has an education system with an own philosophy which has sprung from the soul of the Transkeian people and which meets the demands and ideals expected of it.
House Resumed.
The
COMMITTEE OF
Deputy Chairman reported progress.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday , 1st May, 1970 .
Education must weld the nation into a single unit and inspire it to greater industriousness and set it on a definite course . Then, and only then, will there be a chance that the hopes for the future will be crowned with success .
FRIDAY , 1st MAY , 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed, ANNOUNCEMENTS
For a developing country it is therefore of cardinal importance that education must be singled out for special attention.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just wish to report that the hon. the Minister of Justice has had to go back to bed again .
The leaders in the educational field and each
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individual constituting part of the educational pyramid must, it follows , carry a deep awareness of the heavy responsibility resting on their shoulders . The future of the youth is , it must be realised , in their hands .
being so, no teacher can give of his best and discharge his duties in an atmosphere of cheerfulness . Contentment is a prerequisite for good work. The premise will always be high appreciation for work well done and promotion for the teacher who furnishes proof that he possesses the necessary qualifications and experience and especially if he has displayed diligence in the execution of his duties . There are signs that the demands made on the teaching profession are appreciated, and accepted, by its members . The greater majority in the teaching profession consequently execute their duties in a responsible manner.
I am therefore not exaggerating, Mr. Chairman, when I say that to a large extent the future of the Transkei rests in the hands of our teachers and the education department. If these people wish to be able to live with their conscience they must tackle and execute their responsibility with zeal and enthusiasm. It is and will remain the task of those concerned with education to prepare and develop available human material , the youth of the nation and, where necessary, also the adults to be useful so that manpower demands can be met in every sphere . This sense of responsibility must and will determine the policy which my Department will follow.
It is the policy of my Department , Mr. Chairman, to provide school facilities wherever these are merited and atthe primary level the progress can be described as satisfactory .
I believe therefore , Mr. Chairman, that progress and success will only be possible if integrity, honesty, orderliness , hard work, zeal and contentedness form the pillars of the administration and organisation of my Department.
However , although good progress has been made , the position in regard to post-primary education cannot be regarded as being entirely satisfactory . In comparison with the 68 postprimary schools in existence in 1965 , there are at present 77 with a student enrolment of approximately 22,000 as against 9,000 in 1965. Of the present 77 schools 53 schools are secondary, 14 high, 7 teacher- training and 3 vocational. The enrolment in these various classes is as follows : -
Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware of my great responsibility towards the Government and the people of the Transkei and I have every intention of facing up to this responsibility . My Department is not prepared to tolerate evils such as dishonesty , corruption , drunkenness , dereliction of duty and similar malpractices . I will endeavour to set the example and expect of my officials and teachers to do likewise not only amongst themselves but also towards the public , the parents and especially the pupils and students in the schools.
Secondary and high schools : -
Form Form Form Form Form
Should constant attention not be given to those problems which tend to impede the progress of education and should there be a lack of thorough and constant planning , with a view to progress , it would be tantamount to a dereliction of duty on the part of my Department . Therefore , with a view to giving effect to its task and function, my Department is presently engaged in: -
1 7,346 11 6,431 111 - 4,741 1V - 1,070 479 V -
Total
18,491
Total
1,549
Total
1,394
Total
43
20,040
Training schools : -
H.P. 1 H.P. 11 H.P. 111 J.S.T.C.
-
778 616 14 29
1,437
Vocational schools :(1) investigating causes as to why so many primary pupils leave school at such a tender age ; (2) establishing the reason for the fact that at a given age the enrolment of female pupils far exceeds that of males; (3) finding ways and means of making available more facilities and accommodation for all those who wish to attend school at the primary level ; (4) countering schools ;
irregularities
occurring in
(5) investigating the reasons for what would appear to be a feeling of frustration amongst some members of the teaching profession. My Department believes that every teacher should enjoy a sense of security in his profession for , this not
Boys Girls
345 155
500 Grand Total
21,977
Although the total number of students in Forms 1V and V has increased from 654 in 1965 to 1,549 in 1970 , the increase is still too • slight if it is borne in mind that at the end of 1969 , 2,309 candidates passed the Junior Certificate examination. To meet the demands of these successful candidates , the 1969 Form 1V failures and those students seeking admission from outside the Transkei , there were facilities for only 1,070 Form 1V students . It is true that a number of successful Junior Certificate candidates were admitted to the teacher-training schools , but there are still too many who have been denied the opportunity of proceeding further. When one considers that ofthe 1,616 success-
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Certificate examination in that particular area.
ful candidates in the 1967 Junior Certificate examination only 214 were able to complete the Senior certificate with success in 1969 , it is obvious that there is an urgent need to increase and improve facilities so as to permit the admission of a greater number of students to the high school level .
This does not mean that all the normal high schools will disappear. At Umtata , for instance , St. Johns College will become a pure high school whilst the Ngangelizwe High School will continue to offer tuition from Form 1 to Form V My Department will continue with its normal programme in regard to the establishment of high schools. The conversion of some schools to pure high schools is an emergency measure .
There is a very real demand for workers with senior certificate and university qualifications and my Department is investigating ways and means of meeting this demand . It naturally follows , Mr. Chairman , that the establishment of more high schools will involve considerable expenditure on classrooms , laboratories , hostels , etc. and it will take some time before plans for such additional facilities are realised . In addition, the services of suitably qualified teachers will have to be obtained. At present , my Department has at its disposal the services of only 111 teachers with the B.A. degree and 20 with the B.Sc. degree · these are insufficient to staff existing high schools . The teaching personnel of all post-primary schools consists further of 397 teachers with the Senior Certificate as highest academic qualification, 72 with Junior Certificate and 9 with trade qualifications . These figures exclude seconded Republican teachers .
Such a scheme would have the following advantages : (a) The number of matriculants can be increased considerably in a relatively short period. (b) Use can be made of existing buildings for the purpose .
(c) The available suitably qualified teaching corps can be utilized to the greatest advantage . At present there are well -qualified teachers working with small groups of students . In those schools offering only high school tuition such teachers will be responsible for much larger classes by virtue of the increased enrolment. This will naturally result in a conservation of man-power.
Mr. Chairman, to overcome the problem of inadequate accommodation and the shortage of suitably qualified teachers , my Department is , for instance , considering the establishment of high schools offering only Form 1V and Form V classes. Such a scheme could well be introduced , for example , at Blythswood which is admirably suited for the purpose . As you know, the training school section at this school is to be transferred to Butterworth when the new training school becomes available at that centre . All accommodation at Blythswood will then be released for high school purposes which, under present circumstances , would mean Forms 1 to Should the new scheme be introduced at V. Blythswood, it would be necessary to plan as follows :-
The following problems will arise from the proposed scheme :(a) Provision will have to be made for alternative accommodation for those Junior Certificate students who , as a result of this scheme , will have no classroom accommodation. This problem could be overcome by extending existing secondary schools and the establishment of new ones. However, this should not prove insuperable as there will be a transition period during which the alternate accommodation could be provided and sight should not be lost of the fact that accommodation for secondary schools is less costly than that for high schools .
(a) No Form 1 students would be admitted in 1971 - their place being taken by Form 1V students .
(b) It is feasible that there will be a measure of criticism towards the conversion of some existing high schools to pure high schools on the grounds that the general level of students ' work might suffer. To this , Mr. Chairman, the answer is and will be that it is expected of every teacher in every school to do his duty in the fullest sense of the word. If this is done the level will most certainly be maintained . I am convinced that the advantages inherent in the scheme outweigh any disadvantages . The matter undoubtedly merits serious consideration and a fair trial.
(b) No Form 11 students would be admitted in their place being taken by Form 1V 1972 students. (c) No Form 111 students would be admitted in 1973 their place being taken by Form 1V and V students .
By so doing, Blythswood would then provide for some 220 Form 1V students and 200 Form V students in 1973 as against 100 at present. By following a similar pattern at Rhoda , St. Johns College and other old- established postprimary schools , my Department will be in a position to increase tenfold the facilities for Form 1V and Form V students i.e. from some Of these it is anticipated that 400 to 4,000 . there will be in the vicinity of 2,000 Form V students . The idea is to establish such schools in each Regional Authority area to provide for those students who have passed the Junior
Mr. Chairman, another aspect of my Department's functions and responsibilities which receives constant and special attention is teacher training. In 1965 the total student enrolment in all training schools was 880. The enrolment this year is 1,437 . This enrolment is determined by the number of additional teaching posts which may be created annually as well as the availability of accommodation. The attitude of 118.
my Department is that every trained man or woman is an asset to the Transkei and no training facility or possibility is wasted. As a consequence of the drastic shortage of teachers for the secondary schools , my Department has instituted a special teachers ' course at Cicira for the training of teachers to meet the demand. The course, which is of two years duration, is divided into two specialist sections , one which provides for the teacher who wishes to teach languages and social studies and the other for those wishing to offer arithAs metic , mathematics or general science . from 1971 a third course will be added for commercial subjects . Students wishing to enter for one of the courses must possess a senior certificate . Matriculation exemption is not compulsory. Although provision was made to start this year with 50 trainees only 29 students applied for admission and were admitted . Nevertheless , my Department has high expectations for this new development . It may well still develop into something worthwhile. I might add , Mr. Chairman , that informal discussions have already been held with the Rector of the University of Fort Hare from which it would seem that the possibility of introducing degree courses in the future under the supervision and guidance of a university is not an idle dream .
singing is a natural gift of our people which may not be neglected and , with this in view, the possibility is being investigated of instituting a specialist course in music in order that student teachers may enjoy expert tuition in this subject. Instrumental music and the formation of orchestras are also being investigated.
The training of kindergarten teachers for beginners ' classes is also enjoying the attention of my Department as it is apparent that the need for such teachers is increasing . Mr. Chairman, my Department believes that the conditions of service of its officers should compare favourably in all respects with those of other education departments . It is for this reason that I feel specially concerned about the retirement age of these officers . My Department will do everything in its power to set this matter to rights . It just cannot be tolerated that teachers and members of the field staff are lured across the borders of the Transkei by reason of the fact that service conditions are better there than in the Transkei . The considerable shortage of well qualified teachers makes it imperative that we retain the services of those at our disposal for as long as possible . The specialisation of services , Mr. Chairman, has as a consequence that in the very near future promotion posts will have to be created for female teachers as supervisors . The woman has already proved for some considerable time that as an organiser and administrator in the lower primary school she is far superior to the man. As they are experts in the field of training and teaching of the young pupils , they are in the very nature of things the obvious choice to provide guidance and supervision to those who are resposible for the junior classes . In due course representations will be made to the proper quarters for the creation of such posts .
Apart from the introduction of the specialist courses at Cicira my Department is anxious to do everything in its power to improve the qualifications of its teachers . With this in mind, 30 bursaries have again this year been awarded to students desiring to qualify as teachers at the University of Fort Hare . Mr. Chairman, my Department is also engaged in investigating the possibility of establishing an Education Advisory Board. The functions , duties , etc. of such a Board must be thoroughly gone into and defined . The creation and institution of this Board will undoubtedly meet a very real need.
Mr. Chairman, another matter which I wish to bring to the notice of hon. members is that it has been decided to make general science a compulsory subject in Forms 1 to 111 in all new secondary and high schools as from this Schools which are at present offering year. biology in Forms 11 and 111 may continue to do so up to 1974 but thereafter general science will be compulsory in all schools in Forms 1 to 111 . This step has been decided upon because general science is a prerequisite for biology in Form 1V. General science is also a requirement for students taking domestic science and for those who wish to enter the nursing profession.
Another matter which is causing me considerable concern is the lack of proficiency in the English language amongst our people in the Transkei . It has become apparent that the standard of English is deteriorating at an alarming rate and, unless something positive is done to arrest this , the effects could be far- reaching. In saying this , Mr. Chairman, I have in mind the fact that English is the medium of instruction in our schools from Standard 111 and is therefore the language in which all our students are required to reflect their knowledge and A moment's reflection will comprehension. make it obvious that if the standard of proficiency is low, the teacher is not in a position to conduct his classes in a satisfactory manner and the pupil is unable to absorb the material This creates a vicious being put to him . Mr. Chairman, we are well aware of circle. the seriousness of the situation and I can assure Hon. Members that my Department is doing everything within its power to rectify matters .
It will be recalled , Mr. Chairman , that, in delivering his policy speech during the last session of this Assembly, my predecessor made mention of a new bursary scheme for prematriculation students which had as its object the eventual filling of professional and technical posts in the Transkei Government Service . The scheme , which consists of 50 bursaries and which was introduced at the beginning of this year, was made available to students who had obtained a first class pass in the Junior
My Department is also giving its attention to music , singing and choir singing. Music and
119.
Certificate examination and had taken either mathematics or general science or physics as subjects . It is with regret that I now have to inform you that, although 249 candidates obtained a first class pass in the 1969 Junior Certificate examination, my Department was able to award only 30 bursaries as a considerable number of these students had not taken mathematics or science and could not therefore be considered . I might add that every candidate who obtained a first class pass with one or more of these subjects to his credit was awarded a bursary, irrespective of the symbol achieved for these The fact that general compulsory subjects . science is now to become a compulsory subject in Forms 1 to 111 should ensure that available bursaries will in future be fully taken up .
Expenditure on postage is now provided for under Vote I C. 3 and the provision under Subhead C has been reduced accordingly. Provision under Sub- head D is in accordance with the requirements of my Department for the current year and requires no further explanation . Sub- head E requires no comment. Provision under Sub- head F was increased considerably in the previous financial year to cover the costs of science equipment for postprimary schools as well as furniture and equipment for the technical college at Umtata and the vocational training school at Lusikisiki . This equipment has now been purchased and it is possible therefore , to reduce the provision to a figure which allows for normal requirements and expansion .
Mr. Chairman, I will now turn to the estimates of expenditure for my Department for the financial year ending 31st March, 1971 . It will be noted from the printed estimates before you that increases under six of the subheads of Vote 3 amount to R1,187,200 whilst decreases totalling R31,200 are reflected under The four of the remaining five sub- heads . amount of R7,783,000 requested this year is therefore R1,156,000 or 17.44% more than the sum voted last year.
The increase of R3,800 reflected under Subhead G makes provision for the granting of new bursaries on the approved basis , including the new prematriculation bursaries , less the value of those bursaries payable to bursars completing their courses .
Sub-heads H , K and L do not require specific attention.
The lion's share of this increase is , as you will see , reflected under sub-head A where the increase is R1,171,600 or 19.72% over that provided in the previous financial year . Of this amount, no less that R638,000 is required to meet increases in salaries brought about by the introduction, as from April of this year, of improved salary scales for teachers , administrative , professional and other staff. In this connection it will be of interest to honourable members, Mr. Chairman , to learn that teachers whose qualifications are equal to or higher than Std. V111 plus three years , or Std. X plus one year recognised teacher training , receive increases of approximately 15% in comparison with approximately 10% granted to those teachers with lower qualifications . This should , in my opinion, act as an incentive to teachers to improve their qualifications and, by so doing , raise the standard of teaching in our schools . Far too many teachers are content to rest on their laurels after obtaining the minimum qualifications for appointment in the teaching profession and it is distressing to reveal that the bulk of our teachers fall within this category.
It was not possible to proceed with the erection of the two rooms for Handwork and Physiotherapy at the Ikwezi Lokusa School for Cerebral Palsied Children for which funds were voted in 1969/70 . It is necessary therefore to repeat this provision under Sub-head J for the current financial year. Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I thank you for your attention and I now move that Vote 3 be approved by this Committee. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman, I second .
Mr.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think in the time at my disposal I will have to finish everything that has to be said in connection with this policy speech. We must not forget that with the new Minister of Education and Secretary for Education we cannot expect the house to be clean immediately . Was it a dirty THE CHIEF MINISTER : house? What is the implication?
The balance of R533,600 is required for the payment of annual increments as well as the annual increase in teaching posts.
The policy itself, esMR. DUMALISILE : pecially with its proliferation of promises , does offer some hope for the future , more especially when we understand that most of the things which have been stated by this side of the House would seem to have been admitted and have been corrected . It is however to be hoped that the hon. the Minister of Education is not inclined to bring into his policy this separate development. We have always maintained that the matter of education should be above politics . Since , however , this side has already assisted the Government party in agricultural phenomena , now I do hope that education will be married
The teaching establishment has been increased by 340 to 7,139 posts and provision has been made for a further 357 posts during the current financial year . Sub-head B has been increased by R9,200 to meet additional expenditure resulting from the introduction of improved subsistence rates and to cover the costs of an anticipated increase in the use of motor and general transport. 120 .
once before referred this matter to the former Minister of Education when he attended a meeting somewhere in the district. I have never seen a fire brigade sent out unless there is a fire in that place. It is most unfortunate for this school to have such a staff. Definitely, if I were to mention the school which has been given all the rejects of the Transkei they are a problem to the committee , a problem to the regional authority , a problem to the community and they are a problem to themselves . (LaughIt has been mentioned that many pupils ter) leave school in the lower classes . This is true but I think the trouble with this lies in the lack of book-buying power. It must be remembered that the people have many expenses and they do not regard education as the most important, so that when they are required to buy books for their children they would rather dispense with education. Touching again on the question of classes which have become the problem themselves , I think I heard correctly when the hon. the Minister of Education said it is going to be worked in such a way that there would be no more admissions . He said that during the no confidence debate. If I am correct, then I think some way somehow must be devised. It has been maintained that all people are in dire need of education and desire their children to be educated . In the meantime accommodation is not available . Would it not then be advisable for the hon. Minister to acquire some accommodation in the surrounding kraals ? It is impossible for a teacher to turn children away from school because it exposes him or her to criticism from the local people , and once illiterate people have their children driven away from school they will think that nothing is to be derived from education. In this policy speech we are given the number of post-primary, secondary and high schools and my only comment on that is that they are quite insufficient. It has been said by the hon. the Minister of Education that some of the children who passed their Junior Certificate should not be admitted to the training schools . I am glad he has pointed this out because in my participation in the no confidence debate there was some mystery. When I touched on the training schools and the applications , and the way they should be submitted, I was misinterpreted. I must stress that while we have seven training schools in the Transkei the system which has been followed in submitting applications is one which is confusing to an applicant. A child of a parent is sent a form where all the training schools are listed, which would give an indication of the school or schools to which he would prefer to go. This form is sent to the first school where the principal of that school has either to admit the child or refuse its application. My complaint is in regard to the period taken between the first school and the last. In view of the drunkenness which is mentioned here in the policy speech , it is possible that that form can reach the school and find the teacher not in his normal senses . It might find the teacher in his residence and not in his normality and when he goes to the school he forgets he ever received a form . The whole process , therefore , will have to be gone through again. Further , some of the teachers do not live at the training
with agriculture . No- one would like to see a man ploughing without a wheel , as we saw in the film at Abrahamskraal . To avoid that we must have to start a man with education. The hon. the Minister of Education has hammered much on the shortage of teachers. One has to question what are the reasons behind all this . Looking through the past, the shortage of teachers can be attributed to the following points , one of which has already been given by the hon. Minister and which I am not going to repeat. We find teachers resigning from the profession and some being dismissed for insubordination. Let us follow the resignation part of it. The hon. the Minister of Education must remember that he has a neighbour next to him, the XDC , and some other friends who offer high salaries for their employees and some of them do even issue new cars when a man Further , thinks he will never Own a car . teachers have felt the teaching profession has become a clerical job in so far as the daily preparation is concerned . I do not quarrel with the idea of daily preparation but I think it was brought in for a teacher who must face one class , not those with more than one . In those with more than one class it is virtually impossible for any teacher to make daily preparation for each and every subject in each and every class. It is my view that the hon. the Minister of Education left the inspectorship because he could not stomach the lies contained in the record books. This , however , is also a defect in so far as teaching is concerned, but in any event if at all daily preparation is required then the Department of Education must see to it that more teachers are employed in the profession, so that the teacher is not compelled to face more than one class . Another aspect is the salary adjustment which is obtained in the Republic. It should be remembered that we have one journal in the Republic and in the Transkei and if a teacher sees any item today with an announcement that the salaries of the teachers are being adjusted in the Republic and not in the Transkei that teacher is sure to leave the Transkei . The saying that a new broom sweeps clean should be demonstrated by payment of salary arrears . There is that cry, Sir. However, if your finances cannot achieve it we are not blaming you. Again , we have to consider the growth of the population in the Transkei . It has always been maintained that ever since self-government was introduced in the Transkei the numbers have increased considerably. This , however, can be countered by employing more teachers because as long as people produce three , four or five children, these children will require to be sent to school . Remember, too , there are also those children whose appearance is always questionable . Those children have to • be included in the coming census , but then it is no good thinking that the population has not increased because there are those children who are not supposed to be existing. The hon. Minister mentioned some steps to be taken against corruption, drunkenness , dishonesty, etc. This has been in existence for quite a long time. I hope what is contained here in so far as these promises are concerned will bear some fruit. While I am on that point I want to make mention of some certain scheme . We have 121 .
in this House at the moment , one wonders whether it will not be advisable for us to adjourn as I do not even know if we make a quorum . In consultation with the hon. the Minister of Education I move that we adjourn till Monday.
schools because they have their homes somewhere else , and when the schools break up the principal is on leave and the form in the meantime comes in by post and until the school is open the child does not know where to go. That is my contention. There is one thing which the hon. the Minister of Education has not made clear to this House . Although it is not contained in the policy speech we have to question him about it. It is in the air that from 1972 students at Fort Hare will be taught in Afrikaans . Fort Hare is the only university where we can send our children from the Transkei . If that is the case , we would like to know what will be the
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : I second. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I feel that way myself. I think there is a quorum because our number is more than 25 , but this is an important Vote and I think it is unfair of these men who have absented themselves deliberately as cogent comments still have to be made on the policy speech .
position for the children coming from the Transkei to the Ciskei when they are confronted with this Afrikaans medium of instruction. The hon. the Minister of Education will probably realise that gossip does not pay. We on this side must congratulate the hon. Minister for the intention to introduce the Educational Advisory Board. We have always maintained that it is a most important step towards co- ordination between the department and educational experts . He also mentioned that with the shortage of teachers it will be necessary to retain those at our disposal for as long as possible . I do not know why he is not more direct on this point because it has been the desire of the older teachers to continue up to 65 years as a retiring age.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I wonder if we should not apply rule 64 in this matter and ring the bells to bring them back. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, that is not the procedure in this case because rule 64 says that if the attention of the Chairman is drawn to the fact that a quorum of 25 is not present they shall be summoned by ringing the bell . The quorum is there but our contention is that there is not sufficient attendance to justify a debate on this policy speech continuing, regard being had to the large number of members absent. So that rules does not apply. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Was this motion seconded?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There must be consultation with other departments .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : It has been seconded by the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. DUMALISILE : We urge you to expedite that consultation . In fact, all those who have been scheduled for retirement last year have applied for an extension of their service , but they have been refused . These men are not very much older . Mr. Chairman, one other item to comment on is the disparity between the increments of 15% and 10% according to qualifications . The hon. the Minister of Education has said that those with a lower primary certificate will have their increments at the rate of 10% and I do not see why this has been allowed to continue . In my view it would have been better for every teacher in the professional field to be on an equal level with others , because the scale of salary is determined by his or her qualifications. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: explain that.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?
Agreed to. House Resumed The
Deputy Chairman reported progress.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 4th May , 1970 . MONDAY , 4th MAY, 1970
Prayers were read .
I will
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
OBITUARY
MR. DUMALISILE : I will leave that point for the meantime if the hon. Minister has promised to explain it. This beast has not been slaughtered for my own personal consumption. What I am doing is just pricking it so that it will bellow. We are not going to eat bones because we want the mincemeat. The bones we will leave for the young men.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is with deep sorrow that I have to announce this morning the sudden death of Chief Zwelibanzi V. Ndarala of the Amandungwana clan of the Emigrant Tembus . He died at his home in St. Mark's district on the 3rd May , 1970 , at 3 a.m. Although there is no provision , Sir , on the order paper for obituaries I crave your indulgence that this House be given this opportunity to pay tribute to this member of the Assembly. Chief Ndarala was suddenly attacked by his usual chest trouble during the weekend of the 25th April , while he was still here in Umtata and he had to be rushed home immedi-
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , due to the importance of this Vote we are now dealing with and the scarcity of the members
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MRS. Z.A. MZOZOYANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand in support of the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Education. Even though a member of the Opposition tried to find fault with the policy speech , he took up the position that the hon. Minister was new in his post, as well as the Secretary and therefore they could show no appreciable activity. There is a proverb which runs thus : A new broom sweeps clean . He tried to criticize the hon. Minister as having run away from the position of teacher and inspector. It is by God's grace that he now occupies the position of Minister of Education . We learn by experience . Education is more important than any other aspect of life. A few days ago we spoke of the importance of agriculture but although we may have droughts in the Transkei so that we cannot grow crops , we can still derive help from other sources . We cannot rely on getting education from another state . Education is important and is the mainstay of everything in life. The reason why the White people are able to face any situation is because of their education. Another speaker said a few days ago that they had aspirations to get to the moon , but according to the remarks of the hon. Minister we can even get to the moon by adopting those points he mentioned in his speech . Inthe policy speech we have been told of the progress made in the number of schools which have been built and bursaries have been awarded in various areas to assist Transkei children. The hon. Minister mentioned a point which touched me as one of the womenfolk of the Transkei - that there is a possibility of female teachers being promoted to the position of supervisor. I felt very proud at this and I felt like making a request at this stage . If the time should come when these female teachers are promoted to supervisor is it not possible that an increase in salary , smilar to that of male supervisor , could be given to them ?
ately. A member of this Legislative Assembly since its inception in 1963 , Chief Ndarala was a loyal subject of the Transkei . The 40 -year- old young chief was a brave man and was ready to meet any situation which threatened his loyalty to the Transkei Government. A sincere , truthful and straight-forward son of the Transkeian soil , he was always unswerving in his determination to face any attack on his integrity. Zwelibanzi , the grandson of Siyabalala Ndarala , will ever be remembered by his colleagues in this House and in particular by those Government benchers at the corner across the floor as they were constantly shaken by his amusing interjections to laughter . He leaves a widow and several minor children. I am sure I am expressing the feelings of this House when I say: May his sould rest in peace. A letter of condolence should be addressed by the Secretary of this Assembly to his wife and family. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to support the motion of condolence moved by the hon. the Chief Minister and to express our sympathy with the family of the late chief. I remember him as a truthful man. I remember an occasion when a certain group came from Queenstown with the intention of destroying life. He escaped with his life by hiding in a herd of cattle. He did not fear personal threats but clung to his firm beliefs . It is always our wish that men of his calibre should remain amongst us , but we know, as the Xhosa idiom says , that a beautiful dish will not be used for a long time. We are thankful that he was amongst us as a member of this House . I know he will be greatly missed by his colleagues who sat with him in the corner of this Chamber because he was a jovial man, but well-disposed who made his interjections without hurting anyone . I am sure that Chief Kaulele , though he may laugh today , will at the same time shed tears at the loss of his friend. We sympa-
MR. B. LANGA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, there is one point which disturbs me. The hon. member in addressing the House
thize with the Amandungwana clan over which he supervised. We say in Xhosa that a man must sleep on the wonded side so that the earth should absorb the blood, then later we will be thankful that the blood of a hero has enriched the soil. May he rest in peace and may all his friends be of a peaceful mind.
states that she represents the women of the Transkei. Should she not make it clear that she is representing all the people in the Mount Fletcher district? MRS. MZOZOYANA : Another point which I wish to raise is that these female teachers are very often the sole supporters of their parents . In his speech the hon. Minister mentioned teachers who drink beer and get drunk. In the meantime could the female teachers not be given an additional salary because they are the people on whom we rely?
The motion was carried , the members standing in silence as a mark of respect to the deceased chief.
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPFLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sits in Committee of supply .
MR. LANGA : Mr. Chairman, the speaker has not answered my question and I would like a reply.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not a point of order. The hon. member is just deliberately disturbing the speaker. He can speak later on when he has a chance . I don't think you should allow him to disturb the speaker , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to.
House in Committee The debate on Vote 3 , Department of Education, was resumed .
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MRS. MZOZOYANA : Another point raised by the hon. the Minister of Education was in connection with young children who are not encouraged to school . Those children are a source of worry in every location because they become "tsotsis" . An hon. member across the floor spoke in favour of those people . He says that was because those children had no schoolbooks . I say the fault lies with the parents because anything which we adults want to purchase we do purchase . If the hon. member wishes to buy an expensive bottle , he does so. I myself will not go to bed without having a good cup of tea, yet we allow our children to become delinquents . Let us not always rely on the Government in connection with those things which we can do for the benefit of ourselves. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
prevented. A situation of that nature cannot be found existing in any other country. Let me repeat myself and say that each child has a right to go to school , and that child should not be debarred from going. (Interjections) You have heard it stated now and again in this House that compulsory education should be introduced and the reason given against it was that some people do not want compulsory education. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point. of explanation , Mr. Chairman , I listened to the hon. member and it was clear to me that he had taken the wrong view , or did not understand the answer by the Minister of Education at the time it was given. When he made the casual remark I thought I would be in a position to explain at the end of the debate , but unfortunately he seems to be persisting and is giving a very wrong impression to the House . In addition to what was said under (a) , this is what I said : An overnight remedy would mean refusal of admission. That is not the intention of the Government.
Order , please .
MRS . MZOZOYANA : The rise or fall of the Transkeian people will depend largely on education. Education starts in the home ; education should be fortified in the home and we must not take up the attitude that our children who become delinquents at home should be corrected by the teachers . I say "Well done " to the hon. Minister . Please do not shirk your responsibilities .
MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , I follow the hon. Minister's explanation and I am replying exactly on that head. At a later stage the hon. Minister may give an explanation to indicate that a Black child has a right and is allowed to attend school . (Interjections)
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in connection with the policy of education which has been placed before us in order that we should go into its details . If I take it as it is , I notice the hon. Minister has a made a number of promises in this House great number of promises which require financial expenditure . His department has been given the greatest share of the Estimates and that indicates that all the people inthis House realise that his department requires money . That is so, as a matter of fact, because there are so many items which are required , particularly in his department, that the budget has risen to R26 million . That budget appears to be very large , but even if that total budget were granted to this Department of Education alone it would more or less cover the requirements and promises made in the policy speech. As we had nothing, we should be thankful for the budget , but we should take note that though this budget amounts to more than R26 million , it is not enough to construct even one dam. What is most painful as far as the Black people are concerned is the fact that we have thousands and thousands of children who do not have the chance to acquire education. The hon. Minister himself confirms this . When he replied to my question about the ratio of children to a teacher he said the average is about 60 children to one teacher and that is evidence of the fact that there is a shortage of teachers and it implies that our children are not given what they should get as far as education is concerned . His other suggestion in his reply was that we should attempt to curtail the number of children attending school . That is another thing that the people suffer from , when a child is anxious to go to school and he is refused admission. I think it is right for each and every child to attend school , because if a child desires education he should not be
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will request the hon. member from Umzimkulu to keep quiet , please. MR. JAFTA: That hinges upon the fact that more money is needed by this department. There are few school buildings established and many of the existing buildings are derelict. Right throughout the Transkei the Government cannot afford to put up two school buildings in each district because more money would be required by this department . One wonders now why , after the budget has been drawn up and the estimates prepared , there is always a report of a surplus which has not been used. I will not dwell too
-
long on that point, but perhaps some other speaker will elucidate it further. Now, we have this complaint -- that a large amount of money is required as far as education is concerned but things of minor value are dealt with though we all agree that education is the most important thing. For example , take the Jabulani buildings and hotels where large sums of money have been spent. Turning to the salaries of teachers (and our teachers should concentrate on their salaries because of the importance of education) a teacher is an important person in any community and his very attire should indicate that he is a teacher . His behaviour should also indicate his profession. A teacher is responsible for the children he teaches and he has under him about 500 children. A teacher should therefore be an example to such children . MR. R.B. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have here before us a document in regard to the policy on education in the Transkei , and education is the backbone of the development of a state . Such a backbone must be handled by people of integrity and people who 124.
know their responsibility to that state, because it looks forward to the future and to the success of that state. This document shows it has high intentions in regard to education in the Transkei and it further shows that the share that has been given by the hon. the Minister of Finance will be used properly. The department has done a wonderful job in attending to the rapidly increasing numbers of school -going children . We see on page 2 that the enrolment in 1965 was 9,000 children and it is 22,000 at present, which shows a phenomenal increase . This shows that our Government is not marking time in regard to our education, although we have yet to consider that there are quite a number of children who are not yet enrolled . The Government, in its education section, has shown it is not prepared to go back. Among the points raised by the hon. Minister in his speech, we appreciate his intimation in regard to the methods of combating the shortage of teachers in the schools and we are very thankful to him in regard to the proposed courses which are going to combat this situation. In regard to his promise that they are going to investigate the causes of children leaving primary school at an early age , it is true that in some areas the schools are controlled by people who have no clear idea of education and also by parents who have no foresight as far as education is concerned. When such people feel the burden of things , such as the high cost of school books , they feel their children might just as well leave school. We recommend that this matter should receive the consideration of the Minister. We also recommend for his consideration the shortage of teacher-training schools for boys because there are very few at the moment. Mr. Chairman, nothing much can be said against the policy speech of the hon. Minister as it merely bears out his efforts on behalf of education, but I wish to comment on the statement of the last speaker when he said a great deal of money is wasted by the XDC . I wish to remind the speaker that the XDC is an independent body, not under this Legislative Assembly.
file dealing with a particular matter is missing. There are such cases , Mr. Minister. Now, there is the question of teachers getting their salaries late , especially lady teachers , and most of the married women who act for certain periods . Just now, Mr. Chairman, I am aware of about two or three of them who, up to the time we came to parliament, had not received their salaries from last December. I put the matter to the hon. Minister please to see to this. There is also the question of appointments of teachers again. The process now obtaining is very slow. You get to the district clerk and he tells you he has to refer to the circuit inspector who in turn, after consulting with the regional authority, must advise the central office . This takes a few months and during that period the children are without a teacher. Wouldn't it be better, I would like to know from the Minister, if the circuit inspector , who knows that particular circuit, after , of course , consultation with the school committee , makes recommendations to the head office so that teachers are found sooner than they are found now? That would perhaps make that particular community find the right teacher for that school , because there may be cases where a region gets a teacher , say, from the Ciskei right to Mount Ayliff and he is employed there . Perhaps that way again the bribery and corruption that goes on all along the line might be remedied. On the question of books , we actually have a motion to ask the Government to subsidize school books . It is because of the expense that we find on the reports that the children do not learn. Now your department, we hear , is thinking of introducing a single system of uniform in the Transkei with the aim of reducing the expense of uniforms . That is the information I have. Wouldn't it be more healthy to have the reduction on the books , rather than on the cloth? In fact, it is the parent and the teacher who have the sole choice . That is what happens in all civilized society - that the parents and teachers have the choice of uniform and that you should rather subsidize the cost of books . On the question of books again, Mr. Chairman, we actually have a motion on this because here is a child at school and this child pays the full amount for the book fees and he does not get the books . He goes without the books , and the money is paid in and sometimes in certain cases , right up to the end of the season, the books are not delivered. The position now is that the parent suspects that the teachers concerned are agents for a particular firm or have shares somewhere , and there are cases where a teacher quotes about R25 , say, for books when in actual fact the bookseller sells them for about R20. Is it not possible that the bookseller could deal directly with the children via, of course , the principal teacher? He could go to the school and the books are paid for and are given straight away to the children. At times the poor teacher has to collect this money in dribs and drabs and at times he makes it imperative that he uses this money as soon as he gets it, and sometimes he finds himself in great debt. There is one other thing, Mr. Chairman, that I regard as very unhealthy. You will recall that in 1968 , supervisors of education went round the schools recommending
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is honestly gratifying to note a change of tone in the policy statements this year. The stress all along has been on policy more than the healthy atmosphere we are pleased to find today, envisaging improvements in these departments. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make comments first of all on discipline in your department. I understand there is machinery for disciplining teachers but I am now worried about the type of officials , the field staff. What machinery have you got providing disciplinary measures for those officials ? My information is that some of them are not unguilty of insobriety and immorality. What do you do in the event of a field official becoming drunk, when this man is found tipsy time and again and reported at times to confront young high- school girls? I would like to know from the hon. Minister of the machinery provided, please . Again on discipline , it has been common practice with the Department of Education people coming all the way from their areas to the office for the settling up of certain matters and when they get to the office they find the 125 .
in their areas .
If it is introduced it would be necessary to have sufficient trained people and money and all that . I ask hon. members not to be irrelevant but to concentrate on the suggestions and the investigations suggested on page 2 of the policy speech. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
what books had to be bought because they were trying to improve on the knowledge of Afrikaans . As it was a new language they were learning, some of those books were written by the insThey were the authors pectors themselves. and naturally a teacher had to oblige the inspector by recommending that the schools buy his books . Mr. Chairman, I will canvass this further under my motion.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, it is sad that the last speaker has entirely misrepresented what we say and I will not waste my time in commenting on it. The tone of his speech was that nobody can criticize anything on any point, but we are constructively criticizing. I was on the subject of books when I was cut off, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps the solution would be that the booksellers go to the schools and with the assistance of the principal teacher sell directly, not that the children should pay for books that are not available at the time , because the teacher keeps this money and uses it and sometimes the order does not even come , but
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. G.T. VIKA: members , I rise up in support of the speech by With the hon. the Minister of Education. anything which we have placed in the hands of a person, it is a source of happiness to see that that person uses his brains. For that reason we are not going to try to hit back at the hon. Minister . I hope you are not going to say we want more money because it is his intention to do something else . On page 2 of his speech , although the hon. Minister concedes there are certain things that have to be done , he has however stated that he is going to undertake investigations and it is futile for one or two members of the Opposition to be marking time or repeating these criticisms , at the same time making no suggestions for improvement. (Interjections) At the present moment I am not going to go beyond those mentioned in the speech because we must do one thing at a time and get I have already said I will only to the next. rise to endorse the speech, but I will go further and comment on those statements which seek to bypass the hon. Minister's speech. We are all agreed that what is most important in the Transkei is education , and we must concede that we have reached certain achievements with the funds at our disposal. The achievements I have noted indicate that we have no proper opposition in the Transkei. We are told there of certain malpractices by certain teachers in certain areas - things which should really have been brought to the notice of the hon. Minister , instead of being brought to this House . We have been told of moneys paid for books which are never received. There is not a single one of us who does not know that anybody who does not give you due credit for your money is a thief. We have a department for thieves · the Department of Beyond that, Mr. Justice which fights theft. Chairman, I do not think it is fair to expect the child to go into the region to buy books when there are teachers and parents to this. I thought the idea was that the teachers were helping us If anybody by accepting the money for us. appoints a good principal , that principal should not be attacked. The individual should be pursued and dealt with accordingly. In any case, it is not fair for hon. members of this House to try to curry favour with people who are not in this House by trying to represent them improperly. 'We all know that anybody employed by the Government should get proper remuneration but it cannot be said that teachers ' characters are bad merely because they do not get sufficient remuneration. As far as I know, the reason why we do not enjoy compulsory education is because it was said that if compulsory education is introduced more money would have to be made Some of the members do not reavailable . Imember this. Some of the members say they
the money is paid at the time of placing the order. We also recommend a series of books to be used (instead of one being used one year and another the following year) as used to be done in our time . With history books , for instance , the books were the same year after year so that if a child had a brother or sister in the class below him he could pass that book on. Then, as I said , inspectors should allow the teachers to get text books of their own choice and not so that he must buy a particular book We also pray , just to bribe that inspector. Sir, because I believe we are no all satisfied that the regional authorities as they are at present in the Transkei know nothing about education at all . I don't blame them because they haven't the training to deal with education at all. We therefore pray for a change , Sir. We also say you must please leave uniforms to the teachers and the parents . We do really appreciate that there are reading books that are supplied to some of the children in primary schools . We would welcome more of these gestures . Again, with the improvement in the Department of Education , Mr. Chairman, I saw that the hon. the Minister of Education was quoted by "Imvo" once as saying that the system of Bantu Education is better than the Transkei system . I would he would comment when he replies on this report, please . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
MR. ZIBI : I will say no more about this , but I will probably canvass more about books when my motion comes up . Finally, the hon. Minister did mention that they would keep their teaching staff for as long as it was reasonable , or he considered consulting the other Ministers in so far as the retiring age is concerned . What is the feeling of the Minister with regard to employing suitably qualified married women in view of the shortage of teachers ? I would like the hon. Minister to canvass this point. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I see some of the members are already smiling. They think I am canvassing for a bye - election. Mr. Chairman , I have noted with pleasure the manner in which
were allowed to introduce compulsory education
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the House as a whole has handled the two policy speeches - that is , the one by the hon. the Chief Minister and the other by the hon. the Minister of Education . It is clear that when it comes to the future of our children we really agree because we want theirs to be a bright future. It has been pleasing that even if they have been criticizing, theirs has been a constructive kind of criticism. After all, we learn through our mistakes . When I turn to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education I am pleased to know that investigations are going to be made as to why so many primary pupils leave school at such a tender age . We all know that the first four years in a child's school life are the formative years. It is during those first four years wherein a child will either go ahead with his education or will leave school altogether. I have made this observation on the sideline (let me put it that way) that something has to be done to make the children be keen to go to school , especially during those first four years of their school lives. Some provinces have overcome this factor in that they have instituted infant schools , although those will touch on my department as far as accommodation is concerned. I however feel that it is high time that the Transkei had as many infant schools as possible . It is also pleasing to note that the Department of Education has decided to concern itself not only with student welfare but with the welfare of the teachers as well. Imust commend especially its plan which has already been instituted the institution of specialist courses at Cicira. Nothing is as bad as when a school will be short of, say, a mathematics teacher and then when the people of that particular school try to find a teacher they will not be able to get a mathematics teacher, but will get one who is good at languages . You will find that in the classroom now that teacher will be learning mathematics at the same time as the students . The scheme which the Department of Education has embarked upon, therefore , is one which will ensure better quality teacher material . It is pleasing to know too that the people of the Transkei and, in particular , the Department of Education, have been given to realise that a female can play a leading part in society.
quoted lump sum despite the fact that those books are available . I would that were to be noted. Coming now to the conversion of some of the secondary schools into high schools , again I would say that is something which is pleasing in that there is nothing as good for the children as being taught by a teacher having high qualifications. I remember at one stage when I was still at school , one of the teachers had very inferior qualifications and for most of the time he would scold us this way: "If you make a noise I am going to teach you. " and then if you kept quiet it was just the other way around probably: " I am not going to teach you. " (Laughter) of course, in those days he was reading a few chapters a night, just keeping ahead of us.
Who could doubt that?
The debate on Vote 3, Department of Education, was resumed.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : If I could help it I would that those female supervisors would start next month. They have a better understanding of children and I think they can even correct better some of the teachers who are adults . The way women carry themselves with
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I wish to draw your attention to the fact that it was said that these amendments are made to be umbrella amendments to open discussion to cover every aspect of the Vote , and therefore I would suggest that the mover moves his amendment so that we can get on.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: How do you know? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : We were intelligent enough to know that. Such an innovation will therefore remedy such a state of affairs. I wish, Mr. Chairman, that the Department of Education will continue to be as far- seeing in connection with the education of our children in the Transkei . At this stage I have this plea that when it comes to the education of the children in the Transkei let us compare notes with our neighbours , and whenever we feel we are falling short there are people whom I am sure will always be willing to come over to help us. In fact, I am referring those remarks when it comes to the new approach and I am sure the hon. Minister will agree with me that we still have a lot to do in order to reach the same level of standard as places like Natal . Concerning this drive towards science , it is pleasing to know that now we are changing from the same type of subjects and we are beginning to feel we must spread our wings . I would , however , that when it comes to bursaries let us not give all of them to science students. Let us give about ten of them to those taking other subjects in order to encourage them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION
dignity would bring about a change in the general run of things . Coming to the question of books , I think I am in agreement with the last speaker. There is something I would the Department were to check upon, The secondary schools have a tendency of quoting a lump sum which has to be paid by way of book fees . Let us say the child in question is in Form 2 and has a brother in Form 4 who was using more or less the same type of books as are expected of this other child to buy . When a parent puts forward a plea that he be allowed not to buy the books which the child has , the reply is always that it is the
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think the discussion up to now has mainly been on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education and, without anticipating the reaction of the hon. Minister, I think the comments have been to the point and, I think, constructively critical. I would request that we be given time to talk further on the policy statement itself and if Mr. Chairman is worried about the time , the more we talk on the policy speech the less will be the comments under the amendment, and in terms of 127 .
our accepted principle of one amendment to the Minister's salary most of the others will fall away and their points will be taken up under the one amendment to the Minister's salary . If I were the Minister of Education I would certainly welcome a continuation of this discussion, and I crave your indulgence and assure you that no more time will be spent on this debate inclusive of the time that will be spent on the amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on a point of clarification, what would be the difference if at all the debate on the policy speech is stopped now and we go on with the amendment? My difficulty is : How shall we know whether we have given much time to the discussion on the amendment or not? I thought it would be to the effect that the members had already started repeating themselves in the comments on the policy speech and that the mover would move his amendment and then we would carry on with that. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , when we deal with the amendment to the Minister's salary I think discussion is related to specific matters and financial provisions as they appear under his Vote , and questions of principle will not be canvassed at that stage , but my main point is that the discussion seems to have still be fruitful. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Very well , I am waiting for speakers. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to participate in this policy discussion. Hon. members of the House have commented on specific sins of commission and omission and I would like to make some suggestions and also comment particularly on what the hon. the Minister of Education has indicated to be the objects of the educational policy of his department . The Report of the Department of Education , as tabled before this House for the year ending 31st December, 1968 , makes reference to the paucity of English and other subjects in the Transkei , and it has been indicated in that report that the department has not yet appointed a librarian to be attached to that department. May I stress the need for a librarian to co- ordinate library services in the schools in the Transkei . More often than not, teachers are told to establish a library for the school and they bring in their old text books , Shakespeare , Milton and other irrelevant books . A librarian would be able to draw up a list of books which should be found in every school library in the Transkei , and would pay particular attention to these language subjects and add other books of fiction, travel , etc. , which will widen the horizon of the pupil. I think here we need co -ordination throughout our schools and the principal teachers should not be allowed to ramble in their own direction and make what choices please them , rather than choices which conform with the standards laid down and the objectives sought to be achieved in our educational system. Under this head, Sir, I would like to see a development from the establishment of the Transkei Teachers ' Association. Teachers ' associations tend to be concerned with salaries , conditions of
payment, pensions , transfers and things like that, but I think in the nature of a teachers ' association you have a literary personnel living together as members in that organisation. Can the teachers not be called upon to form a literary association ? They could be addressed quite regularly on literary subjects and they could be encouraged to have a love of reading in that literary association . It would be most fascinative for lectures to be given these teachers on expeditions to the North Pole , the flight of Apollo to the moon, the life of Dr. Aggrey subjects which will elevate their thinking out of the morass of: How much do I get at the end of the month? (Laughter) And our teachers , I think, would be compelled to be efficient in speaking the various languages of the Republic, including Xhosa and Sesotho. How fascinating would it be to a man who does not know Afrikaans to have the story of Rip van Winkle told to him by an Afrikaner in English, so that he could understand it. I cannot stress this point too strongly if we seek to achieve some proficiency in the languages used in the Transkei . My view of education is that it is an agent of change and an agent of relationship and an agent of co-ordinating information for the benefit of the individual and the society in which he lives , so that the individual becomes full developed intellectually and emotionally and alsophysically. Because we start in education from the known to the unknown, the lower classes will certainly begin to concentrate on those things known to the pupils and therefore our education in the lower classes will tend to have a local bias , but this local bias should gradually give way to the national outlook and then from the national to the international ; for the educated individual from any other part of the world. The man who has passed his matriculation examination in the Transkei must be able to square up with a man who has passed an equal standard in the Republic , in the United States or Great Britain, or anywhere else. To seek to make education a vehicle for developing the nation of a geographical area is to circumscribe the purposes for which education is intended and to curtail its objectives of creating a citizen of the world, rather than a citizen of the Transkei. An educational policy which seeks to develop the distinctiveness of an ethnic group or infuse a national character in an individual falls far short of the purpose of education , which is to civilize a man and to give him that intellectual expansion which makes him an intellectual amongst the intellectuals of the world. We cannot have our own philosophy of education, for education is based on a philosophy that satisfies these aspirations that we want to cultivate in everybody . MR. C. DABULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , supporting the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of education , I have the following comments : In the first place I agree with the remarks of the hon. Mr. Guzana who made suggestions for the development of the state , but the fact remains that nations do not grow up on one and the same thing, or simultaneously . You will note that the Chinese have only recently launched rockets , and that after copying the example of another country. If we
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hear stories that the children of Umtata are being given something to eat at school and they hear that something very beautiful is being done at the school in Umtata. We have not got such good things in our district. Another thing is the failure to put up schools and children at Lutubeni were prevented from attending school because of lack of accommodation. They saw no useful purpose in attending school when there were no classrooms . We were promised that the primary schools would have buildings provided and the Government would also put up buildings , but this promise was never fulfilled . Even at Upper Ncora I think the children exceed 500 and they have no accommodation in which to pursue their studies . This is another suggestion I would like to bring to the notice of the authorities : If there is a lack of teachers in some districts , why is it that some of the teachers in primary schools should not be taken away to get higher education and be given bursaries? If they have to pay for their own education their wives and families would be deprived of bread. If we have no people waiting to take up employment then we will not have any teachers in our high schools at all . I wish also to warn the education authorities that several teachers hear their salaries should be on the same scale as those in the Ciskei. I say this because if a person finds out that his equals in the Ciskei are getting a higher salary then his only alternative is to resign and go to the Ciskei and that leaves us without teachers in the Transkei . There are certain teachers in the Education Department who start work as early as 8 a.m. because it is their desire to see that the children pass their examinations. Some of the other teachers say it does not matter when they go to school , as long as they get their salaries. Usually when a teacher takes that attitude you find only two Std. 6 candidates manage to pass their examinations . Can the Government not encourage those keen teachers ? Such people could be encouraged by being given back- pay and they should be given promotion. When a person gets encouragement he will work harder. Even if a man has already been given employment, he should be encouraged because without encouragement that person will simply say he is working for his bread at the end of the month . If the Education Department takes note of this and encourages the keen worker, those who loaf and take the chance to have a drink will not get bonuses , and when they find the children have failed they do nothing because a teacher cannot be dismissed just because the children have failed. At one place three girls were sent to a certain place and they stated they could not remain in a locality of backward redblanketed people . The school committee was making representations on behalf of a married woman and their request was turned down by the Government, who wanted to employ these girls. The girls stated clearly that it was a backward red-blanketed area and they could never stay there. Even the hon. member who comes from that locality knows the truth of what I am saying. The place is Ncolora in the Libode district. If work is being done by people , the people will never be alike . There are those who are keen on their work and others who neglect it and attend beer-drinks . It is for
go back to the year 1804 , when Sir George Grey's intentions were to do away with witchcraft, you find that today such is not the position. Today the aim is to civilize our children. We rejoice with those parents who have educated our present-day leaders . Formerly it was enough for a child to go through a teacher's course , but today the doors are open. If a student today fails in a teaching course she can take up domestic science , dress -making and so on. The doors are open to them, but there remains one gap yet in the Transkei which I think will be filled in ten years ' time - that is , to get to the moon. (Laughter) Otherwise , in all other In this policy aspects the doors are open. statement it has been stated that to overcome the problems of inadequate accommodation and suitably qualified teachers this Government is considering the establishment of high schools , training schools and special teachers ' courses. By so doing, Blythswood, Butterworth and Cicira will then provide accommodation for Form IV and Form V students . In addition to that the quota of accommodation is increasing in training schools. Revision of salaries in this department, and of wages and allowances , has taken place so that our Government is in keeping with the needs of the people and fully aware of the rising cost of living. The Department of Education has taken steps to plan its programme . If there is no planning then the results at the end of the year are hopeless . If the Government had not planned this programme it would show no achievement at the end of the year . We congratulate the hon. the Minister of Education , nor do we forget the loaned officials who have given assistance . We begin now to see the green pastures and the horizons of the mountains , for it is necessary for a man to have a vision . If a man has no vision he will not progress . Mr. Chairman, in concluding with my comments , I would congratulate the hon. the Minister of Education in planning this work and I say: God so loved the Transkei people that he gave us the present Minister of Education and the present Leader of the Transkei Government, (Laughter) and who does not believe in their policy shall perish. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Sit down. MR. DABULA: My dear friends , before I sit down, in order that you may reap the fruits of this policy the hon. Minister should heed neither the fables nor the endless questions from anybody . Take you share and serve the Transkei people . MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand in support of what has been said in this House . We have heard stories about education going round and that all nations succeed through education. In Egypt during the war, Nasser was trying to uplift his nation through education after he took over from General Naguib. Education means freedom to a people and success depends on education. I want also to give my advice as some others have done . In my area I see the numbers of the children attending school are decreasing. It appears that these children suspect something because on the borders of Umtata children easily 129.
that reason that we ask that the Government should encourage the enthusiastic teachers . In the regional authorities pensioned teachers and others with experience should be made members , and the same with school boards. Matters appertaining to education should not be taken lightly. Even in your time education was never carried out by the chiefs . The duty of the chiefs is to give instructions to the people to send their children to school , and that is all. I make that request to the Education Department. What has been said by the school committee should be adhered to.
language into one or more of the languages mentioned above if the Chairman or Deputy Chairman so directs . " Now, the hon. member used a word that I do not know.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is all right. Carry on, hon. member . MR. BALENI : I want to say that the matter before the House is very important for the development of our state. I am taking no account of those who just want to be known as members of this Assembly . Mention has been made of music in the speech and this is a very important thing. I do not know whether some of the members of this House realise this . Music is natural to the people and we refer to it as food for the ear. We who do not patronise shebeens go to places where we can listen to music. Mention has also been made of the training of nurses. This is important training . Gone are the days when herbs were used in confinement cases . The food that was taken by our greatgrandmothers is different from the food we take today and that is why herbs which were used in confinement cases are no longer used today. The services of trained nurses are required to see to the health of the baby so that such nurses will decide whether to send the mother to the hospital if there are difficulties in confinement. The days have gone when old women used to look at mats in order to facilitate confinements . If there are any members who still use mats for confinements I must inform them that those days are past. I must thank the hon. Minister for what he has said in his policy speech. I will not take into account the hon. members of this House who want to encourage tribal dances . That is why they don't worry about education because they want to see tribal dances.
MR. L. BALENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up in support of the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. I am thankful in reading the speech to see provision for the establishment of training and vocational schools , so that things should not only be confined to teaching. There are people who are born mechanics and people who are born for handwork. If you are a parent you will observe your children at play and see what their talents are and how they do different things . Mention has been made here of lads who leave school at an early age . The majority of such lads are those who want to work with their hands . You will see them cutting up paper and making shields . The days of the shield have gone and the children should not be encouraged to carry shields which will not benefit them in any way , except to send them to gaol . One hon. member asks how they are going to fight. The days of fighting with assegais are gone . (Interjections ) One thing I have not seen in the speech is the encouragement of health education. The establishment of health education in the schools is very important. If a person enjoys ill-health he does not succeed. Many diseases among the people are caused by ignorance of health rules . You will have noticed how a dead beast is eaten and the people who eat such a beast know nothing about health. I am thankful to note in the speech that children will start learning English in Std. 3. There is no language more important that English in South Africa . Anyone who knows English can go and visit Holland , Germany, anywhere in the world. I am sorry that while we are discussing important things some of the members are making a noise , which shows the people in the gallery that they do not care for education. Another important thing to consider is that these people who leave school early (I am speaking of adults) should be catered for at night schools . There is something I have noticed in connection with school committees . Any person of note , however illiterate , is appointed as a member of a school committee . I recommend to the hon. the Minister of Education that communities see to it that not anybody is elected to these school committees .
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MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I also wish to say a few words on this subject. I will give the hon. Minister some idea of things which have not been attended to. It has already been stated that the building of schools is not being carried out and those which do exist are in a bad state . When people have collected money to put up school buildings they are usually told when canvassing for elections is taking place that they need not proceed with the building of that school because the Government will do it for them . (Interjections) I know of a certain location where money had already been collected and the people were told to refund the contributions. You said at Rasmeni that if the people did not vote for you they would not get a Std . 5 school . Those promises are made by the hon. members of the governing side . There is a great shortage of teachers in the Transkei . When Bantu education was introduced teachers were dismissed from the department without their cases being heard , and the teachers we now have are those who have been taught Bantu education . We introduced the Cape European syllabus and the teachers who were taught under Bantu education now meet with difficulties . These teachers should be given certain courses in order to improve their standard so that they should be in a position to cope with education as implemented nowadays . You also are to blame , because if a teacher at school
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I have to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the hon. member has used a word which I do not think he should According to the rules , Rule 51 - Languages to be Used reads : " Speeches shall be delivered either in Afrikaans , English , Xhosa or Sesotho and speeches shall be interpreted from one
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policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Education. It is obvious that we are all agreed that the work done by the hon. Minister has been excellent and that he will continue to do a good job. That being so , it only remains for us to make requests in connection with matters which perhaps he has overlooked or omitted . Before I make any suggestions I wish to comment briefly on statements made by hon. members across the floor. One hon. member stated that the teachers are leaving the Transkei , possibly because of inadequate salaries . I want to remind the hon. member that this is a young government and it gets funds from the Republican Government. Such teachers are not national- minded because they should realise that they should help in the establishment of their own state , irrespective of money . Even as it is , since the inception of our government there have been increases in salary and we hope this will continue to take place as long as we get assistance from the Republican Government. Another hon. member suggested the removal of chiefs or headmen from the regional authorities because they know nothing about education. I do not know whether the idea is to come and expose the chiefs on the regional authorities , because some of the regional authorities are doing very well.
was a married woman and you dispensed with her services you did not know who to replace her with. When the schools reopen you find a situation where there is no teacher at all because even the teacher who is appointed in her place does not turn up. In Engcobo there is a school where a married woman taught. At the end of the year, in December, she was told that her services were being terminated . She was a single teacher. On the 13th January, at the opening of the school , there was no teacher. A teacher was appointed and assumed duty at that school on the 14th Febrauary. Some of the Chirstian pupils of that school went to attend Nkondlo school and the parents who had no interest in education at all told their children to herd stock and the girls to attend to the pots . That female teacher whose services were terminated was re-employed and assumed duty on the 14th February . At Qutubeni school a principal expected to be given two female teachers and one of them assumed duties on the 13th January this year and the other failed to turn up. On the same date as the arrival of that female teacher, a telegram was received from head office transferring her to Ngqwaru school . It became apparent that this teacher could not go and teach at a school in the mountains and that she must teach at a school where the area is flat. One teacher was transferred to three different schools during the course of one month. At Sinqumeni school the teacher remained for one week; at Lower Gqaga one remained for two weeks , and she was then transferred to Cefane school. My question is : What is being done about education for Black people by the Black people? You all know that a school teacher is not like a clerk in an office . A teacher has to teach pupils whereas a clerk has to deal with documents. At first the children must learn to understand the teacher , and the teacher the children. If the teacher is not kept in one place , when will he have the opportunity to get to know the pupils ? Another important matter is the Std. 6 examination. The names ofthe examiners and moderators of those examination papers are not reflected on the papers. That is very important, as the teachers desire to know the name of the examiner. The teachers wish that that matter should be rectified .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I said that education must be taken away from the regional authorities , not that the chiefs must be removed. CHIEFTAINESS SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman , the remark did not come from the hon. member who has just spoken. Possibly he was out at the time . I wish to tell that hon. member that it is right that the chiefs and headmen should be on the regional authorities because they know the conditions in the areas and they can encourage the parents to send their children to school. It is regrettable to see that some of the hon. members dislike the chiefs . (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please .
CHIEFTAINESS SIGCAU: Another hon. member says whenever a bye -election approaches the members of the Government tell the people they should not worry and that the Government will establish schools . If there was any truth in that statement, notices would not appear to the effect that the people are going to levy taxes on themselves in order to build schools . We want to remind hon. members that the Government is only the people. We should try to see to it that we help ourselves when we notice a little failure on the part of the Government. We are also thankful to notice that sooner or later high schools will be built in accordance with regions and we request that that method be employed in the establishment of training schools to meet the demands of many children. We want our children to get their education in the Transkei . Another request we make is that the department should take steps to discourage the habit of some of the female teachers who only join the profession to leave for some other profession such as nursing . This results in the fact that for long lapses of time the children have no teachers . We would like domestic science to be taught in Std. 4 and in all primary
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA : Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask a question. Why didn't this hon. member go and find out from the authorities concerned when this teacher was first transferred? Another point is the large MR. MAJIJA : number of children they have to cope with. Please will those in authority employ more teachers . I think if a teacher has to deal with a class of 25 to 30 children that would be quite reasonable. When I was up- country I saw a class of 20 White children taught by two teachers . I think there should be more than seven training schools, and if that cannot be accomplished the number of students to be admitted should be increased. I just wanted to give that advice , thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEFTAINESS N. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the 131 .
Minister. Looking at the figures supplied by him I see the Junior Certificate candidates number 4,714 . He went on to say that the childdren who have been admitted to Form IV and PH.1 are 1,848 in number. Adding the numbers given I find there were 2,867 writing JC.3 and it is apparent that those children are no longer at school .
schools because it happens that some of the parents are unable to send their children to secondary schools . It may happen that a young man wants to marry a girl with Std. 6 education and he finds she cannot even boil an egg properly for him . If this provision could be made , such women could be useful to the state even though they may not have attained a high standard of education . Another request is that radios should be provided at all schools so that the ten o'clock programme could be enjoyed by all children. I have not many requests , Mr. Chairman, except those I have made. I have already said it is obvious we are unanimous on this policy.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about those who have gone for PH? MR. JAFTA : He further said that the number of children who had entered for JC.1 was 7,346 and those who took up Senior Certificate were 479. As a result I formed the opinion that there were some children who were doing absolutely nothing because they were not given the opportunity to take up further studies. (Interjections ) Considering the number who entered for Senior Certificate , which is such a small number, the indication is that the standard of education is very low. It lies with the hon. Minister now to give a satisfactory explanation as to how this occurs . I believe he will do so. He also made reference to boys attending school being fewer in number than girls , and wished to find out the reason for this . There might be many reasons , but one is that the female can usually withstand more than the male . There are certain things which women can endure which men cannot. I say there is something wrong with the department which causes women to be able to endure and the men not so able. The truth is in the sub- standards , where girls and boys are apparently equal , but as they go on with their studies you find that the number of boys becomes less . Those boys who cannot endure drop out and this all requires a thorough investigation as far as the department is concerned. Once more , money is the question in order that such matters can be thoroughly investigated, and the hon. Minister and his Cabinet should therefore proceed to Pretoria to ask for funds more suitable in connection with this particular department.
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. A.D. JOYI : members , I do not think there is anyone who can say that education is not important. We are all agreed that it is the support of a nation. It is no use putting a golden ring onto the nose of a pig because the pig will fall into the mud and the golden ring will be soiled. A bad habit has infected the teachers in regard to drunkenness and that is a very bad thing as far as the children are concerned . One question is asked daily, and the question is : Which day is better than all the others ? The answer is: Tomorrow is a better day because all people expect payment tomorrow. If education is at this level , what is the work that has been performed by the teachers? What work are they performing and what payment do they expect tomorrow? If the hon. the Minister of Education was not an obstinate man I would say he should take this as an example. I am going to speak about a certain the best teacher. It is said there was teacher -
a certain farmer who kept fowls and one of his hens laid some eggs , but among the eggs was one belonging to an eagle . After the eggs had hatched the eaglet was among the chickens . This is what Your life is not on the chicken was taught : Spread your wings and fly to the this earth. skies . Though the farmer threw the eaglet up into the skies it returned to earth until at the last attempt the eaglet flew into the skies . I say that is a true teacher. I wish the hon. the Minister of Education would follow that example. Uplift and uplift the Black nation and tell the Black nation that the life of the nation is not confined to earth.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Isecond the amendment, Mr. Chairman. MR. N.L. MADUBELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very thankful I have to commence with the hon. member for Qumbu district. He takes up the attitude of not putting the most important things before the House because he mentions that pupils who sit for the Junior Certificate did not continue to matric . The House will be unable to deal with a situation where no investigation has been made into the reasons why these children did not go to school. The important thing according to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education is that married women cannot be employed as teachers . This is where I wish to lay emphasis in connection with this matter. Innumerable applications are received from teachers who are about to complete their courses so that the department is forced to stick to a certain number which it considers adequate for the Transkei as a whole , and it does happen that these people fail to turn up after their applications have been accepted while others , as mentioned by the hon .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I think the Chairman will have to do something about what is happening in this House . Since we came in after tea there have been very few members present. On Friday the House had to adjourn just because there were far too few members inside the House after the break. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If there are no further speakers , we have an amendment here standing in the name of the hon. Mr. N. Jafta and I think he should move his amendment. MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move my amendment that Vote 3 in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R3,800 . Mr. Chairman , I have introduced this amendment because I noticed certain things in the policy speech of the hon.
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member for Qumbu, take up other professions such as nursing and yet others fail their examinations . We cannot stand in the way of our children who are at school for the sake of those people who are married but qualified . This forces the department to take these married women on a temporary basis . I am happy that both sides of the House recognize the fact that education is very important for the state. It has been mentioned that the seven existing training schools are inadequate to meet the requirements of the Transkei . Here again I want to point out that the number of people who have been trained as teachers is greater than the number of existing posts and this results in these people not being able to fill the posts when the time comes for them to do so. The Government is anxious to see that people develop educationally. The foundation has already been laid for a school in Butterworth, according to what we heard from the hon. member for Willowvale. This will result in those who want to be trained as teachers going to Butterworth, leaving accommodation at Blythswood for high school students . That means that we on this side of the House are eager to raise the standard of education. The hon. members of the Opposition party have not appreciated what the Government has done in making possible salary increases for teachers . Nobody has suggested that the surplus must be used to further education. I have noted that we are unanimous although there are slight differences here and there. I will not be lengthy, Mr. Chairman, but I want to say that the policy speech of the hon. Minister should be accepted as it is.
The hon. Minister used to note that matter. be a school teacher and he became an inspector. I wonder if he is surprised not to find a position for a chief inspector in the Transkei , because other places have senior inspectors and chief inspectors and one wonders who performs the duties of chief inspector in the Transkei . I will now turn to Std. 6 certificates . Would the hon. Minister tell us who signs those certificates? Amongst other things I would have expected the chief inspector to have the duty of signing those certificates . We are not pleased on this side of the House to learn that those certificates are signed by a clerk , a person with no professional certificate . When we influence children to aspire for higher education we should also be able to tell them about the post of chief inspector . I think even before the time of this new government the certificates were signed by the Superintendent- General of Education. Still on the subject of Std. 6 results , it was brought to light that one pupil was failed , whereas that child's work merited a pass , while another pupil passed the examination but should have failed . It happened in this manner that when the marks obtained by the children were being entered there was some carelessness and the marks for Y were entered to X and viceversa . When this was discovered it was decided
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary. I wish to touch upon certain matters which , wisely, he omitted. If you look at the Report of the Department of Education , on the first page it is stated that in 1966 parents and committees erected 370 classrooms without departmental assistance , but it is not stated what assistance was given by the department and to what number of schools , so that one might suspect that the Government has not given assistance to any school. I would like to hear from the hon. Minister how many schools were granted assistance by the Department of Education. This is what we find - that the parents and the committee seek assistance from the department, and the department files that request away and will play hide - and- seek trying to find this and that. In the meantime the inspectors tell the people to put up buldings. If you wait for the Department of Education you will never have schools erected. In fact, 317 classrooms have been erected by the people . It is a serious
On a PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: point of order , Mr. Chairman, does the hon. member say he wants the post of chief inspector What about the circuit inspectors revived? doing that job? The chief inspector's post is an old institution.
that both the pupils should be allowed to pass. That happened in one particular school , but if it happens in all schools it would be a very bad practice . We wish this to be noted by the hon. the Minister of Education , that children who should have passed have been failed and those who should have failed were passed.
I will reply to that. MR . MADIKIZELA : The certificates are issued by the office in Umtata and I thought the hon. paramount chief would tell me it was not necessary to have the post of chief inspector . If the certificates are signed by the inspectors , say there are six inspectorates it would amount to the fact that in the Transkei we would have six different signatures for these certificates , instead of one Lastly, let me comment common signature . on school books for Transkei children. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Let me put this question: Can you give an example of certificates having been signed by the chief Inspector? · As far as I know that has never happened.
state of affairs if the Department of Education has found a way of shirking its duties , because the department knows that if it does not take it upon itself to erect school buildings the people will do so. I want to remind the hon. Minister that when people have put up a school of their own accord and it is brought to the notice of the department that it should construct a school in the same vicinity, as people are anxious to put up a building, it is because they want to obtain the grant . I wish the hon. Minister to
MR. MADIKIZELA: And you consider that is correct? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, my Std. 6 certificate was signed by the principal of the school, Mr. Wesley Caley, and the inspector , Mr. Houghton, not by the authorities in Cape Town. MR. MADIKIZELA : Even so, Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether the hon. the Chief Minister
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contends that it is in order that the certificates should be signed by a person unknown to us. He told us that his certificate was signed by the principal ....
rity in the Umtata district and that Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mtirara be designated chief thereof; (2) AND WHEREAS this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei ; 4
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, and what you mention has never happened . It is a new suggestion.
(3) NOW THEREFORE in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub- section ( 2 ) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability -
MR. MADIKIZELA : Coming now to school books , these books are ordered through people like Shuter and Shooter , Via Afrika and so on, and likely that teacher is allowed a 5% discount. Similarly with all the teachers in the Transkei . Why should the Department of Education not establish a depot for these books in Umtata ? It is likely that if they did so they would get 20% discount and a book which costs 25c. would cost them only 20c. Incidentally, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Caley was a professional man.
(a) of creating a new chieftainship in Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority in the Umtata district, and (b) of recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mtirara as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief.
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Wednesday, 6th May , 1970 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to abolish the tax on sales by auction, to repeal the Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , to amend the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , and the Transkei Taxation Act, 1969, and to provide for the payment of certain revenues to administrative authorities established in terms of Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5th May, 1970. TUESDAY, 5th MAY , 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ADMINISTRATION OF OATH
QUESTIONS
Chief George Ndabankulu took the oath before the Chairman of the House .
QUESTION NO. 10 . Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior: " (1) Is it correct that during the past two years drilling operations were conducted in the Transkei for oil and allied substances ?
NOTICE OF MOTION THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to invite the attention of the House to item 5 of the Votes and Proceedings of Thursday, 16th April , 1970 , wherein it was ruled that notices of motion would be submitted until Monday, 20th April , 1970 , after which no notices of motion would be accepted without the leave of the House . I now beg the leave of this House to give notice of the following motion which I propose to move tomorrow, the 6th day of May, 1970 , if such leave be forthcoming, namely:-
(2) Where were these operations conducted ?
(3) What were the results?
(4) If the results were negative , will the operations continue ?"
REPLY :(1) It is correct that drilling operations were conducted in the Transkei during the past two years . The Southern Oil Exploration Corporation ( Proprietary) Ltd. (SOEKOR) drilled trial holes in various magisterial districts of the Transkei to establish whether it was worthwhile to do prospecting for oil and gas .
No. 52. CREATION OF A NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP : TEMBU TRIBE : MATYENGQINA TRIBAL AUTHORITY : UMTATA : HEADMAN ALBERT BAM BILANGA NXEKO DALINDYEBO MTIRARA
The Chief Minister gave notice to move : (1 ) THAT WHEREAS the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has , in terms of sub- section ( 1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963 ) , resolved
(2) SOEKOR was granted permission to drill trial holes throughout the Transkei . As far as this Department is aware , drilling was done in the districts of Matatiele ,
that a new chieftainship be created in respect of the Tembu tribe resident in the area of jurisidiction of the Matyengqina Tribal Autho134 .
Mount Cletcher, Lusikisiki , Libode , Qumbu, Tsolo and Cala.
(e) During January , 1970 the matter was raised by my Department and the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development was requested to amend Proclamation R.177/1962 so as to permit liquor sales for consumption off the premises to Europeans . Subsequent to this and its annual meeting the Transkei Liquor Board endorsed this action and the matter was again referred to the Republican authorities , where it is still receiving attention.
(3) In terms of the 5 years ' Prospecting Lease (with the Transkei as prospecting area) which was entered into subsequent to the operations mentioned in paragraph 1 above , any information obtained by the Government or any of its officials in terms of the lease (which includes results ) shall remain confidential for the currency of the lease .
QUESTION NO. 13. Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Roads and Works : "(a) Are there any Primary and Secondary Schools under construction this year?
(4) This question falls away. QUESTION NO. 11 . Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Justice :"What progress can the Minister report on Motion 45 unanimously carried by the House on Thursday, 5th June , 1969 ?-
(b) If there be any, in what region or regions?
REPLY: The motion was referred to the Republican authorities who felt that it would not be advisable to depart from existing policy and that each application for the possession of a fire -arm should be considered on its own merits.
(c) What are the names of such Primary and Secondary Schools , if any?"
REPLY : (a) Yes .
QUESTION NO. 12. MR. S.K. Ndzumo asked the Minister of Justice :-
(b) and (c ) For the convenience of the honourable member , sections (b ) and (c ) of the question are dealt with simultaneously .
" (a) Is it correct that Europeans and other non- Bantu cannot buy liquor at Bantuowned Bottle stores in the Transkei? (b) Is this also the case in towns where there are no White -owned Bottle stores , such as Flagstaff for instance ?
(b) Region
(c) Name of School
Туре
Dalindyebo
Cefana
Primary
Emboland
Mt. Frere Mditshwa Esidwadweni
Secondary Secondary Primary
Matanzima Cala Village Lower Ncora
Secondary Primary Primary
Fingoland
Tanga Duduma she Cegcuana Mankihlana Ceru
Secondary Primary Primary Primary Primary
Gcaleka
Fort Malan
Primary
Maluti
Paballong
Primary
Qaukeni
Marelane Mt. Ayliff Emdiki sweni
Secondary Primary Primary
Umzimkulu
Deepdale
Primary
(c) If so, what is the reason for such restriction?
Emigrant Tembuland
(d) Is there also a similar restriction on Bantu and other non- Europeans to buy liquor at White -owned Bottle stores ? (e ) Has the Minister taken any steps to rectify this anomaly and , if so , what steps ?"
REPLY : (a) Bantu-owned bottle stores as well as Bantu-owned hotels sell liquor by virtue of a special authority granted in terms of the provisions of Proclamation No. R.177/1962 which authorises the sale of liquor to prohibited persons only and not to Europeans .
(b) Yes. (c) It is difficult to say what the reason for such a restriction is , except that the position now prevailing in the Transkei was probably not foreseen when proclamation No. R.177 was drafted.
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should now sit in committee.
(d) No , not in so far as purchases for consumption off the premises are concerned .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second .
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become national and international and , as I say, his position has never been challenged and even we in the Transkei still drink from the fountain of wisdom of Plato. So I would like to assure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that we dare not shirk that goal . We could not take the Roman philosophy of education holusbolus . It was intended to gear its philosophy
Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , we shall continue with our Education Vote and I believe we have canvassed this Vote sufficiently. It now remains only to call upon the hon. Minister to make his comments on the debate .
for the building up of the Roman Empire . The same applies to the British system of education from which we have taken so much , but you were never a pure Englishman until you had darkened the corridors of Eton and Harrow, so therefore even the British had their own philosophy and to a certain extent they had their own local idea of the philosophy of education. I could make many, many instances , Mr. Chairman, including the fact that the American system of education was so much influenced by the English, including the Pilgrim Fathers who Now, another imlanded in the Mayflower . portant point and which will comfort the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is this : One of the finest scholars the world has ever known Quite a lot of was Branislow Malinovsky. students from all over the world , including Black and White students from South Africa, During those days the studied at his feet. term "native" was regarded as derogatory but whenever he met students , especially students from South Africa , one of whom was Professor Z.K. Matthews , he said : "It does not matter what I say to you or how I treat you , you remain a native. " Now, students from Africa, including those from South Africa , used to object because they regarded the idea as insulting, but after some years all the students of Malinovsky agreed he was quite correct. Whatever Malinovsky said or whatever he taught you , that was not meant to change you from being a son of the honourable grand old man of the Transkei . You had new horizons and new ideas , but you were not changed. So the point is this, hon. members , that when we formulate our own philosophy to which we are entitled , we shall take the best from the British, the American, from anybody , and we shall take the best from our own and have our own philosophy of education. We must therefore never be charged by posterity with having thrown out the dirty water with the baby. Therefore , hon. members , we are local in order to be national ; we are national in order to be international ; we are international so as to be divine . Hon. members from Willowvale , Mount Fletcher , Qumbu, Engcobo and all over succeeded in their non-political approach to the policy statement to prove we are all interested in the welfare of our children in the Transkei . They all , in fact , reiterated some of the points already referred to in the policy statement . They emphasized the problem of the shortage of teachers , resignations , conditions of service , lack of accommodation in schools , and one hon. member even referred to the complaint of too much time spent on preparation and record books. I would that at least I should make one explanation as far As a circuit inas this item is concerned . spector we had an interesting experience with Teachers who always some of my colleagues . complain and are not keen to prepare are usually The teachers who are the useless teachers . afraid and are not keen to make any recording
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my remarks in reply to what has been said by both sides of the House will, I hope , be precise and concise . My first duty is to express the gratitude of my department and the officials of the department for the help, the encouragement and the constructive criticism that came from both sides of the House . It is rare that in a debate of this nature it should be on record that there was not one word that was untoward and no expression whatsoever put against any member by another member. Apparently we are all agreed that in the Department of Education , with the help of everybody, we are busy with human investment and therefore in this Herculean task we are agreed there is no price too great and no effort too strenuous . This , Mr. Chairman, has naturally humbled me and indeed it has also humbled my officials , and we are spurred to harder work and, indeed , to wider horizons . The hon. members of the House could not have used a more telling whip than the one they used in trying to help us to do the best we can. After all , we are aware that May, 1971 , is just tomorrow, when we shall be called upon to account for what we said in May, 1970. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, as would have been expected , directed his welcome remarks to the first part of the policy statement dealing with the abstract notions of educational philosophy . I would that the hon. members believe that we share the remarks he gave when he spoke , except that he did not go as far as we have gone without, perhaps , at times mentioning every term that he had in mind. He did say we have to move in education from the known to the unknown , and the philosophy, therefore , must be geared to that understanding. He went further to say we must move from the concrete to the abstract and therefore the philosophy of that particular system of education in that particular area must be geared likewise . He said we have to move from the local to the national , from the national to the international , and we would have added , but we decided not to, but now I do so - we have to move from the international to the divine . MR. K.M. GUZANA : infra- structure .
You can put it as the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That's right. That is why Neil Armstrong, when he landed on the moon, said: One step for man; one giant leap for mankind . Hon. members will agree that the man whose place has never been taken by anyone , as far as educational philosophy is concerned , is Plato , but Plato in his unchallenged philosophy did accept slavery as a result of the fact that geographically Greece was divided into small islands , but because he had a local idea he was able to 136 .
to the tardy manner in which the teachers are appointed. At present, Mr. Chairman, the school committees, the regional authorities , the office of the circuit inspector - all of them , according to the standing rules and regulations and the provisions of the Act , have to be consulted .
as to what work they are going to do, or what work they have done , are usually the useless teachers . At least I would like to make it clear to the hon. members that inspectors usually go to these schools not to find fault really, but to guide . But you can only guide a teacher who is working; you cannot guide a man who does not prepare and who does not do his work. It is always interesting to find a man wandering all over when he is supposed to be doing his work, and when the inspector asks what he has prepared that morning he finds he has not prepared any work at all. Let us take it very seriously - to lose twelve months in your life is tragic. I am referring to the poor pupils who are put into a situation over which they have no control , when they have to fail because the teacher did not do his work. We have to do our best, therefore , to see that the teachers do their work. How do they do it? They must prepare work for the following day and they must record that it is done. There was a reference to the increasing use of Afrikaans as medium of instruction at Fort Hare . I would that we leave that without comment at this stage. It would be most irresponsible for the Minister of Education in the Transkei Government to make reference and allusions to matters like that without being briefed as to what the truth of the position is. There were references to the problems in connection with books the buying of books and the distribution of books to the pupils . Mr. Chairman, I am not going to play the ostrich as far as this is concerned. This is the headache of the Department of Education and let me go further and say this is an unfortunate indictment on the part of the people who are given very, very high posts , representing our people . We have some irresponsible people who indeed squander the money that has been paid by poor peasants of the Transkei . All I can say at this stage is that we are leaving no stone unturned and no turn unstoned to trace and chase the culprits . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made reference to the necessity for a library, and therefore a librarian. I must admit he put the Minister of Education together with his officials in a tight corner, because that has no laternative if we are serious in the remarks we have made in the policy statement. Perhaps the hon. members will be comforted to know and will not be so harsh towards the Department of Education if they know that the Department of Education has in the past made application to the Public Service Commission that this must be fulfilled . At the time the Public Service Commission did not see its way clear. We have made another application. The hon. the Minister of Roads and Works made reference to the 50 bursaries that are offered by the Transkei Government. The 50 bursaries are given to those who are going to do science subjects , as you know. The plea from the hon. Minister is that at least about ten should be given to those who do subjects other than science , All I can say at this stage is that this was the decision of the Cabinet, of course advised by the Department of Education , and it will have to go back to the Department of Education and the Cabinet will be advised accordingly, and then we shall await a decision. Now, there was a reference made
MR. GUZANA :
That is too many.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Anyway , the department is very much aware , and the department is happy that this is not satisfactory, according to the remarks you have made . We are happy that you have said so , and we are studying the position and indeed we hope to come out with another scheme which will make it possible that the schools and children are well There was looked after in minimum time . reference to the Afrikaans text-books and there was something implied that certain teachers are being, or have been, forced to buy certain books Mr. Chairman, this has by certain authors . come up in the past and the department has not always been able to pinpoint it, because when people have made such statements they are not really prepared , when asked , to be specific. But this I should say - whatever mistakes might have been made as far as the bringing in and strengthening of Afrikaans in the Transkei is concerned , it is on record that the standard of Afrikaans and the attainment of pupils from primary schools to matriculation level has taken such strides that it is incredible that Afrikaans is now outstripping English. I am saying that whatever mistakes might have been made There was reference to that is for a fact. married women teachers. The department employs these people as much as possible and let me put it quite plainly to the hon . members of the Assembly - it is interesting to find that the pillars of education in the Transkei are married women.
-
MEMBERS : Hear, hear. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, there was also reference to the examination papers , that they do not show who the examiner is and who the moderator is . Mr. Chairman, that is the modern trend, right up to the universities and beyond. They usually do not put the names of the examiners and moderators . Then there was a reference to the nursing probationers these single girls who complete their examinations and are appointed to certain schools , and then at the time they are due to assume duty they leave and go off to train as nurses . Well , we are studying the position, but with this new development there is not going to be much exodus of these young girls. The nursing profession has moved that those who go for nursing must have passed senior certificate . In addition to that there is a requirement for the so- called "integrated " course for nurses , and they are required to have done general science at least, in order to qualify. We are therefore not going to have so many attempting to go for nursing, you can rest assured . All over the world science has been proved to be necessary in almost every subject. You won't do geography without elementary knowledge of physics ; you won't do physiology and hygiene unless you have
137 .
general science ; you won't do domestic science and so on, and we dare not , and I am sure the hon. member from Umtata would not dare , advocate that the Transkei must be left behind . The hon. member , Chieftainess Sigcau, advocated for more establishments for domestic science in schools which , of course , of late is referred to as "home economics " . The department is handling that matter. After all , you will agree with me , hon. members , it is funny that the girls , instead of learning how to look after a baby, learning nutrition about and all that goes with it, should be wasting their time in the garden wielding spades . Then the department , as I say, is handling that matter . She went further to make reference to the need for radio services in schools an excellent point. I sometimes wonder if people are aware of the free lessons almost in every subject for the adults , for the inspectors , for the ordinary public , which are given free on the radio, In fact, in post-primary schools the department has gone out of its way to give this thing freely, but even in the post-primary schools it is on record that they are not utilized in the manner the department had hoped for. Then there was a question about the position of chief inspector of education in the Transkei . That position would be redundant in the nature of things . It is for the days of yesterday; there is the Secretary for Education ; there are two Assistant Secretaries , one professional and another administrative ; there are two senior planners and then it goes on right through the different sections of the department. There was also some report about some carelessness as regards certain circuit inspectors ' offices , where a child who has passed an examination is reported to have failed , and a child who has failed is reported to have passed . This , I must admit , is to be regretted , and there was a case where , fortunately, there was not much disparity between the marks and therefore it was possible for the department to give a pass to the child who was supposed to have failed . In fact, the one who had failed had to be given the benefit of the doubt in the circumstances . These mistakes and this carelessness , hon. members , will always be possible , and it is not unknown that even at university level you do get such mistakes . I do not think I need go further into the question of who signs the certificates for Std. 6. That was canvassed yesterday and the hon. member gave me the impression that he understood . What we call "night schools " (actually continuation schools ) are being encouraged by the department and perhaps sooner or later you will know what the department is planning as far as these continuation classes are concerned . Here is another point, Mr. Chairman. It was interesting to hear a few hon. members giving the impression that something was worrying them . The question of the uniform I hope I shall make myself very , very clear. The first thing is this : Pupils should wear uniform ; secondly, uniform is usually cheaper for the parents and thirdly, uniform gives psychological satisfaction to all the pupils in the school , because there is no differentiation between a child who comes from a " pondokkie " and a child who comes from the palatial building of Mr. So-and-so. Uniform, therefore , is neat and gives
a good appreciable neatness in a school . Now, Mr. Chairman , I have been fortunate enough to move around , especially during the election and bye -election. It is most pathetic to come across little girls running down from some hill to a school , wearing the type of dress which must have been cut from mother's pinafore , or the boy is wearing some old shirt taken from the grandfather . Now, surely if we have to move on there must be a change somewhere , but if the Department of Education therefore is insisting that there should be uniform in schools then the department must do the best it can to see that the parents will not be called upon to buy something which would be expensive , because we would be defeating our own ends. There might be a way out, for instance , if we make an arrangement with a firm or firms , and these could be bought at cheaper prices. Why should we not do so? Another point is this , and for the information of many · in fact this is the trend in all White schools .
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MR . R.S. MADIKIZELA : the same colour ?
Will they all be
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No, they can be any colour - green, blue and so on. Here is another point - say you are working in Umtata and your son is at Ngangelizwe High School , and he wears that uniform and the blazer alone costs you between R10 and R15. Next month you are transferred to Rode and your child must go to that school and the principal insists he must wear the blazer of that school. That blazer alone might cost you R32 . Surely you agree something must be done ? I want to assure hon. members that the matter is being investigated . There might be two , three , four or five , but all that is happening is that the department is investigating the matter. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Do you want one motto for the whole Transkei? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , that will never be . Even if there is one uniform , each school will have its own motto . Hon. members , I thought it was very simple. I say the matter is being investigated and I cannot go further than that. Now, I think this matter of the uniform has been sufficiently canvassed . Let me come now to a point raised by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher . I am sure the reporters of " Imvo " must have had hearty smiles because they were given credit that did not belong to them . My references to Bantu Education were not, in fact, made to " Imvo" ; they are contained in your Hansard , page 162 , and I made these remarks during the Vote of the then Minister of Education at the time , and I hope the position will be made even clearer this morning. Now, there has been some worry as far as certain members are concerned , about Bantu Education. Perhaps to start with, you must always know that the difference comes in as far as the primary schools in the Transkei are concerned . Post-primary schools are connected with the Department of Bantu Education and when I made these remarks , if I can put it that way, Mr. Chairman , I was in my moment of truth and honesty. Mr. Chairman, even if you study you study the syllabus of the Transkei primary schools and you compare it with others . 138 .
An educationist worth his salt will have to use a pair of spectacles multiplied by a hundred small threads of difference . to see the talking I am as an educationist not a We need not go back to what politician. happened in 1963 , 1964 or 1965. We are tying to be sober and I must admit I will go down in your hearts if I do not mislead you on certain issues . The position is this , that the Department of Bantu Education is far ahead of us on the following items : Firstly, manpower. That building in Pretoria is filled with all the experts in certain sections of the department dealing with specific issues of those particular sections . Secondly, the planning section of the Department of Bantu Education which formulates certain things and advises the Government, is far ahead of us because there are so many people in that section and our planning section here is composed of a few who cannot cope with all the aspects of education. You take the refresher courses - the Department of Bantu Education, as a result of its manpower , wisely extended
but even there we have to watch our steps . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Just a question , Mr. Chairman - isn't that because education is in the hands of the regional authorities ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : All those matters are contained in the rules and regulations and the provisions of the Act, and it is cerntainly not the Minister of Education who can change that. It is the Cabinet. Now, some of our children who go to the Ciskei have examinations set for them for Stds . 3 and 4 , and we have very disturbing information that they fail hopelessly. My own reply to that is that it may be from a certain area only. I would like to believe it is not true of the whole of the Transkei . Perhaps that child came from a certain school or a certain area, but I can tell you that reports are sometimes disturbing. The last point is : Let us forget about the term " Bantu " . After all , what is in a name ? MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Are you aware of the analysis by Dr. W.G. McConkey , former Director of Education in Natal , about all you have said about Bantu Education?
the planning section and the money they have at their disposal enables them to hold more frequent refresher courses . Go further to the material that has to be read and referred to. You get to their library in the Department of Bantu Education and you find booklets , magazines and publications from all over Africa , from overseas , with special people set aside to study those and advise the planning section, and also advise the Secretariat. For your information, some of the best people we have known have been employed there , even from the Transkei . To give an example , Miss Glemis , who was principal of Mount Arthur near Lady Frere and who had excellent results , was taken away by the department for the planning section. Now, you can imagine the position of Mr. Hathorn , principal of Kilnerton Institution , Miss Glemis , a certain Mr. Clarke and many, many others. those are It does not matter what you say
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I happen to know those figures and I happen to know the man personally . If you followed the thing you will know that someone rebutted all he said and said that the man had a lie in his soul . He made these digures for personal reasons. Now , the next points are dereliction of duty , insubordination, immorality and to that I would like to add falsification of records . Hon. members , it was a pleasure to see and to know that you are worried and , to quote the hon. member from Engcobo, one of the main reasons for the ultimate decline of the Dutch East India Company, and of the French Revolution was corruption. I am worried; the officials of the department What pleasure to see that you, are worried. too, are worried because this morning I must put the onus squarely on everybody who is a discerning man in the Transkei . Is it not common that when a teacher has done something immoral the first people to defend that teacher are members of the school committee , or some group from that area coming all the way to Umtata to say: No, he is human after all. Is it not common that when a man is charged with bribery , on investigation it is proved that the chairman or secretary of the school committee , or a highranking man of substance in that area was also concerned? Is it not common that lady teachers who are pregnant will not be reported by the school committee members or the people who ought to, and they expect the department to soil its hands and they will be the first people to hide that woman? Let us all go in in this all - in war to cut out this cancer . Mr. Chairman , I must come to an end , and as I end I shall take the opportunity to say on behalf of the department and myself: We are thankful to my predecessor and to the officials who laboured before us in
well known , accepted educationists in South Africa. They are there , and I will tell you another thing , that the Department of Bantu Education has made it possible for quite a lot of people , Black and White , who are employed by the Department of Bantu Education to go overseas for refresher courses. For instance , Mr. Nabe has been overseas to get new ideas three times . They can afford this , but naturally we cannot run as they are running. I am trying to prove to you that it is along those lines that these people are more advanced , and if we are serious we have to accept true facts . That is the position. I can go further , Mr. Chairman , and tell you that in the Republic it is interesting to find that in many places the standard of education in primary and secondary schools is more advanced . Quite a lot of students passed matriculation in the Republic , but somehow our fellows here do not seem to be moving forward like that. I will tell you another thing as far as Bantu education is concerned . Let us not fool ourselves , our results in Std . 6 are not encouraging. Our results in the Junior Certificate examinations are not encouraging either and, comparatively speaking , as far as Std. 6 and Junior Certificate are concerned the Republic is forging ahead of us . (Interjections ) It is only in Matric where at least we are making an effort,
this department. If we move on a red carpet as a result of your attitude today , it is indeed because they took out the stones to make the position easier and more pleasant for us . I am aware that you had this attitude towards the Department of Education , not because the position was unassailable , but because you were 139 .
prepared to build . Those who worked before us worked hard. We emulate their victories ; we eschew their mistakes and pitfalls . Therefore , Mr. Chairman , I move that the House approve this Vote , and in all humility and pleasure and satisfaction I call upon the hon. mover of the amendment to withdraw his amendment so that this Vote is approved without a division . Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
already nine Transkeian citizens who hold appointments as judicial officers." What is the position in 1970 ? Three citizens of the Transkei have already been appointed as heads of magistrate's offices . One of the three has since his appointment as such , been promoted from magistrate to senior magistrate . The nine officials who held judicial appointments in 1966 have grown to the present impressive total of twenty-two .
Amendment put and lost. The sum of R7,783,000 under Vote 3 , Department of Education , was passed to stand part of the schedule.
I think this is indeed something to be proud of. In the field of the judicature there is great scope for civil servants , not only to earn a good living but also , to render noble services to their own people. Some of our capable and promising men already find themselves on that course , and others are due to follow.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that the address of the hon. the Minister of Justice on his policy speech will certainly take more than 20 minutes I move the adjournment of the House.
In 1966 I told you that progress was being made with the substitution of seconded officers by officials of the Transkeian Government Service . At that time 77% of the posts on the fixed establishment were occupied by Transkeian At the end of 1969 it was 82% , the citizens . actual number of seconded officials having been reduced from 82 at the end of 1966 to 63 at the end of 1969, and yet the Department is coping with ever-increasing responsibilities ; machines function as in years gone by and the needs of the public are being attended to as before . More and more citizens of the Transkei are coming forward to show that , with an adequate measure of training and experience they can, with confidence , fill more senior posts in Another the field of public administration . achievement to be justly proud of.
The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE CHIEF G.M.M. MATANZIMA (MINISTER OF JUSTICE ) Mr. Chairman, Allow me to start by paying tribute to the services of my able predecessor and colleague the Honourable the Minister of Interior. He had the privilege of being entrusted with the responsibilities of the Department of Justice for some time and although he had not been with that Department for a long period, he can be proud of what he has achieved whilst there . I am particularly glad that he has had that valuable experience for I know that , should the occasion ever arise , he would willingly assist me in advising you on the functioning of the machinery of the Department of Justice.
In 1966 I stressed the importance of an intensive training programme to equip officers for their task. I referred to financial assistance for students of law; I made mention of the fact that officers are allowed to attend the vacation school of the University of South Africa and added that the possibility of extending the training scheme was being investigated .
Now, Mr. Chairman, this will not be my first policy speech as Minister of Justice . Those of you who have been here for some time will recall that I addressed you in that capacity That was four years ago. during May, 1966. Within recent months I have been entrusted with the responsibility of that Department for the second time and I think it will be most fitting if, at this stage , and in regard to certain matters of policy, of development and of progress, we draw a parallel between the position as we find it today and the position that prevailed in May , 1966. We all know that time does not stand still and that it is quite normal for things to change as the clock moves on but, in drawing such a comparison, I want to show that the policy of the Transkei Government as reflected in the progress of the Department of Justice , is by no means stagnant but, on the contrary , is as viable and as progressive as the best from other self-governing states. In
1966
What do we find today? During 1967 the Department introduced a bursary scheme in collaboration with the Public Service Commission in terms of which selected officers are allowed to study law at the University of Fort Hare on a full-time basis . Whilst so studying officers receive full salaries and also retain all other privileges as members of the Transkeian Public Service . This scheme proved to be a tremendous success . During 1967 , 5 officers studied at Fore Hare ; in 1968 there were 10 , in 1969 there were 10 , and at the moment there are 9. These men have done remarkably well and several of them have , as a result of this particular scheme , already acquired the minimum legal qualifications reThe previous quired for judicial officers . students part-time which under , bursary scheme were subsidised to the extent of 50% of thei: study fees , has been replaced by a new schem which provides for a subsidy of 100%. Th scheme is obviously very popular and for th
I said to honourable members :-
"I hope to announce the appointment of the first Transkeian citizens as heads of magistrate's offices in the near future . There are
140 .
current year 18 officers have availed themselves of the benefits thereof.
(iv) 25,381 births , 3,341 marriages and 13,798 deaths were registered .
In this respect the policy of my Department is the same as that of my colleague the Minister of Agriculture . If you want to reap , you must cultivate. If you cultivate properly you can expect a good crop. In 1966 three of our officials were legally qualified; today there are nine and further increases are expected before the end of this year.
(v) Under the social benefit schemes , 49,272 old age , 1,802 blind and 18,225 disability applications were dealt with.
Mr. Chairman , I do not want to dwell on matters that concern other Departments but , just to complete this little picture and to show how a great policy is gradually shaping into proper form , I would like to mention that, whereas all prisons in the Transkei still fell under command of white officials in 1966 , six of them are today in the charge of citizens of the Transkei . Whereas only two Bantu station commanders were in charge of Police stations in 1966 there are at present eleven such stations where our own men are in charge . Mr. Chairman, these signposts are not only a clear indication of the direction in which the department is moving but it also defines policy in these respects , not only on paper and in print, but in such a form that it must be observed not only by inhabitants but also by those who merely pass through the Transkei . Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members :-
It is a known fact that my Department is responsible for the administration of justice . We are fortunate in having capable men at the helm for such a gigantic task . I want to quote a few figures to show what was done by the 26 magistrate's offices during the twelve months that ended on 31st March, 1969. Figures for the financial year that ended 31st March , 1970 , are not yet available. (i) 17,144 criminal cases and 8,677 civil cases were recorded;
(vi) Voters were registered; revenue was collected lands work received attention ,
and so I can keep on but on these and other matters you will receive full information from the Departments concerned . I merely wanted to indicate that the Department of Justice is concerned with very much more than mere judicial work. Mr. Chairman , I now want to deal with a few matters by referring to the estimates of expenditure as provided for in the document already in your possession. It will be observed that there is an increase of R126,000 in so far as anticipated expenditure by my Department is concerned. This is mainly due to an overall staff increase of 42 as well as to improved salaries. This staff increase is not as abnormal as it may appear to be , as one has to bear in mind that thirty local bureaux clerks , previously on the establishment of the Dpeartment of Finance , have now been transferred to my Department . As these clerks have all along been posted at the different magistrates ' offices , where they are working under supervision of the magistrates , this arrangement is of practical significance . The provision in respect of home guards has been brought down from R9,000 to R4,200 more than 50%. I think my friends on the opposite side will be very happy about this especially in view of the fact that in respect of the 1968/69 financial year R14,000 was provided for under this item. Under item B there is a slight increase mainly due to higher subsistence rates now paid to staff members . Under item D1 there is an increased provision of R5,000 due to the fact that the Department itself now has to print certain forms and registers that were previously obtained from the Government Printer , Pretoria.
(ii ) in addition to this , admission of guilt was accepted in 13,664 cases ; (iii) there were 653 preparatory examinations ; and
(iv) there were 55 civil and 135 criminal appeals . Apart from this , the Department of Justice also renders a tremendous volume of agency services to other Departments . The following statistics in that connection are also in respect of the period that I have just referred to:(i) Number of workseekers recruited and placed in employment: 46,374 . (ii) Number of labourers recruited by labour agents : 88,375.
The amount under item E9 has been stepped The South African Road Safety up by R4,000. Council is doing a lot to propagate the cautious use of our roads and the careful handling of all types of vehicles . Yet much more can be done to reduce the accident and accident severity The intention is to increase the staff rate. establishment for the Transkei and to post a senior member of the Council at Umtata. Every cent that goes towards propagating road safety is well spent and the Transkei Government can be proud of its contribution to this deserving cause . Under heading H provision is made for the amount of R1,000 in connection with the establishment of regional courts . The Regional Authority Courts bill was put on the statute
(iii) 56,322 applications for new reference books and 17,611 applications for duplicate reference books were dealt with. 141 .
• book during 1969. The State President has since approved thereof. The administrative mechanism is now receiving the attention of the Department and, as costs will have to be incurred in establishing such a court, this provision has been made .
used in this House to give us notice in order that we may get an interpreter. In any event, these interpreters have got to be employed and as Minister of Finance I do not think the taxpayers money should be wasted. MR . MGUDLWA : (Interpreted from Afrikaans) Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to say I am going to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in connection with the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice . (In English) I come to this policy speech now.
The Transkei Police also fall under the control of the Department of Justice . Much is being done to train and equip them for their task and during 1969 : -
6 members attended a course in the driving of motor vehicles ; 36 members course ;
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of rder , Mr. Chairman, I knew that the hon . member across the floor was clowning. This is not a place where a man can come and show how he can clown. He must continue his address in Afrikaans . We took all the trouble to get an interpreter in Afrikaans for him and I appeal to you to make him continue in Afrikaans. (Interjections)
attended a ceremonial drill
3 members attended a musicial course for four months at Orlando , Johannesburg ;
3 members attended a two months prosecutors ' course at Ga- Rankuwa , and
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I rule that the hon. member should continue in Afrikaans or cease .
6 members attended a six months typing course at St. John's College .
MR. MGUDLWA : Why? Under what rule and regulation? I can speak in Xhosa or in any language . Mr. Chairman, in connection with the policy speech made by the hon. the Minister of Justice....
Mr. Chairman , the year under review is marked by peace and quiet and for that I want to thank , in the first place , the people of the Transkei who, by their behaviour , have set a fine example to other young states. In the second place I wish to express my thanks and appreciation to the South African Police . It was their duty to deal with those who showed no respect for the life or the property of others , and by doing so they contributed successfully towards maintaining law and order in the Transkei . Very often we are apt to criticize the Police but may I remind you of the figures I quoted earlier on and in terms of which almost 31,000 criminal cases were actually brought before our courts during a period of 12 months . It must further be remembered that that was done despite manifold other duties .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you that the hon. member should obey your ruling. He should turn to rule 51 on page 10.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : ruling.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , the hon. member cannot fool about as he is doing. Rule 51 says that speeches shall be delivered either in Afrikaans , English, Xhosa or Sesuto and so on. We have taken the trouble of going to look for an interpreter . (Interjections)
Mr. Chairman , it is the duty of my Department to render an efficient service to the people of the Transkei. It is our policy to do that to the best of our ability, and in doing so to develop in such a way that more and more is done for our own people ; according to our own custom and in a Transkei that is our own.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
MADIKIZELA :
I second,
Order, please.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I therefore say you have made your ruling and he should abide by it. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I submit there is nothing to bar the hon. member from switching from the one language to the other .
I think that sums up a sound policy; it leads towards a positive goal and I think, Mr. Chairman, we have proved to be so successful on this course that I do not hesitate in recommending that Vote No. 2 be approved by this Committee .
MR . C.K. Chairman.
I have given my
Will the hon. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Mgudlwa please sit down. I have ruled. He can either proceed in Afrikaans or I shall call upon the next speaker.
Mr.
MR. MGUDLWA : If this House is going to be steamrolled , that is a reflection on this House.
Meneer die VoorMR . L.L. MGUDLWA: sitter, agbare lede van die Transkeise Wetgewende Vergadering.... ( Interjections ) Daar is drie offisiële tale - die eerste is Engels , die tweede is Afrikaans en die derde is Xhosa.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a reflection on the Chairman and he should withdraw that. MR. MGUDLWA : I withdraw.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think it is only right for hon. members , if they are going to speak a language that is not usually
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : next speaker .
142 .
I call upon the
MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is my pleasant duty to have to speak in support of this clearcut policy statement. Fortunately, my mind has not been put astray by the supposed deputy Leader of the Opposition . I cannot comment on his behaviour but I think it casts a very bad slur on the Opposition. A member takes the House to such trouble as to start speaking in one language , only to switch off. That cannot be too seriously deplored. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have had the pleasure during this session of listening to very satisfactory debates and I think one of the main reasons why the last speaker chose to speak Afrikaans and then switched to English was because he had nothing to say against the Vote. At the same time , Mr. Chairman, I must congratulate the hon. Minister very much on the progress that has been made Although some of you, by his department. particularly on the opposite side , perhaps regret there have been so many criminal cases I know that some of you might have been involved in them and perhaps it has given the hon. the Leader of the Opposition some job to do. MR. GUZANA : sensible to say. MR. ment is pected. was in
out a magistrate . We can dispense with lawyers and attorneys and all other people , but we must have magistrates and really it is a source of great pride to us that these young officers have done their best and have notably taken over from Without casting any the White magistrates. reflections on any White officials , Mr. Chairman, I think our African magistrates compare very, very favourably indeed. Well , that goes , of course, to prove that the language barrier was the chief source of misunderstanding beWe are tween the officials and the people. very thankful again, Mr. Chairman , for the provision for the training of our law students , because that is one of the most difficult parts in their careers - having to find funds to further their education. However , one wonders why these figures remain so constantly low in spite of very generous provision made for students who are studying full time at university. Sometimes we make provision for 100 % of their educational expenses . Now , Mr. Chairman, again I think the department is to be congratulated for the peace and prosperity that abides in the Transkei. I think during the past few years since the Transkei Government took over there have been very few disturbances of the nature that used to occur before .
Sit down if you have nothing
MADIKIZELA: Obviously forging ahead even more In comparison with what 1966 great progress has
this departthan we exthe position been made .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have listened attentively to the policy statement by the hon. the Minister of Justice , and wish to mention certain aspects of the policy which should be rectified. Turning to page 3 of the policy speech, the hon. Minister stated that Transkeian citizens have been appointed to the post of magistrate and one has been promoted to senior magistrate . On page 9 of the Estimates there is nothing to indicate that there is a Transkeian citizen who has been promoted to the post of senior magistrate . If that were so an item would be included in the I am Estimates reflecting this promotion. surprised because I know of a suitable officer who could be promoted to senior magistrate . In fact, he has had the qualifications for a long time . He is one of the few magistrates who has the Civil Service Higher Law qualification . That is a mistake on the part of your department, that the officer concerned was not appointed long ago. I think the chiefs ' courts also fall under your department, Sir , but in your speech there is no indication of the number of cases dealt with by the chiefs ' courts. Even if those records are very poor there should have been some report of them in your policy speech . Another fault we find in your speech is in regard to the money paid to chiefs , although the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance indicated some estimate as far as the chiefs are concerned . Looking at the Report of the Controller and Auditor -General for 1969 it mentions that the saving in this respect was due to the fact that only a few districts applied for rations , but only the magistrates can apply on behalf of the chiefs .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member for Butterworth please keep quiet. MR. MADIKIZELA : Iremember in 1966 when the hon. Minister announced he had plans for the appointment of three African magistrates , it was only those exceptionally far- sighted people who believed him. Most of us , myself included , thought it was too good to be true. He has now increased the numbers of these officers so much that we can only praise his department. One thing that gives us pleasure in our policy is that these magistrates have proved beyond reasonable doubt that they know their work....
MR. GUZANA: Don't speak about things you know nothing about. MR. MADIKIZELA : ....in spite of the high qualifications demanded and in view of the administrative duties they have to perform . I will just give figures , Mr. Chairman, to show how successful our judicial officers are . It is recorded that there were 17,144 criminal cases and only 135 of those noted appeals from the judicial officers , and it does not say, of course , how many appeals were successful and how many •·were dismissed. Of the 8,677 civil cases only 55 appeals were noted, and perhaps 40 were dismissed. Well , that casts no slur on anybody. It just shows our judicial officers are doing The ratio of retheir duty and they know it. placement of seconded officials is also very satisfactory . The figures are given there and I do not propose to saddle you with statistics , but if you look at paragraph 4 you will find that the ratio of replacements is very, very high. One cannot imagine a magisterial district with-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And have the chiefs applied to the magistrate at any time? CHIEF NDAMASE : I am not in a position to know whether the chiefs have made application to the magistrates . 143 .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : of them .
You are one
applications are first put through the headmen to the authorities and then to the magistrates . Another difficulty we meet with in the tribal authorities is in connection with stationery.
CHIEF NDAMASE : I never told the magistrate to make any application because I thought the magistrate knew it was his duty to do so. In Libode applications for rations were made to the magistrate , but he never took any steps . There are some other moneys which have been put aside for chiefs and headmen who take matters to the magistrate . If a headman takes a case to the police station on that day he receives no allowance until the date when the case is heard in court, and only then is he paid . We request that when chiefs and headmen and subheadmen take cases to the police station they should be paid some allowance in respect of that. Another thing which brings trouble into the location is stock theft, and theft of cattle in particular , because of the strange behaviour on the part of the police who come out at the request of the people to search for the stolen These people usually carry weapons cattle . of a sort and when the police arrive they arrest them. This happened at our place when people were assaulted by the thieves , and when the men went to look for their stolen stock they were arrested for carrying weapons and were subsequently convicted. In our area the thieves are bold in stealing because they know they will receive protection from the police . One man from my part of the country told me he was not prepared to report his stolen stock to the local police . He preferred to come to Umtata so that the mobile police could be sent out. His fear was that if he should report to the local police they would inform the thieves . You spoke about people seeking employment and the number of labourers recruited in the Transkei. There is definitely a great number of people in the Transkei who want employment but you did not tell us in your statistics the number of people who have not obtained work. Those are the people we should worry about. I see the hon. the Minister of Justice pointing to the Minister of the Interior , but it is the labour bureaux which maintain such records and the labour bureaux fall within your jurisdiction . I believe these statistics were obtained from your department. You have also furnished statistics in regard to the number of old- age pensions paid.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are getting mixed up with the departments . CHIEF NDAMASE : Yes, it may be under the Chief Minister's department but they make application through the magistrate . MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is with pleasure that I rise in support of the able policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice. It is quite obvious that development in the Transkei is making big strides . Some people a few years ago believed that this Transkei set-up was a mere dummy, but it is quite clear today that these critics have fallen into the background, because we see daily achievements in the Transkei . What we should concentrate on and fix our minds upon is educating our people. It is obvious , judging from the many posts which have been created for our sons today, that even the high education they enjoy will not enable them to fill all the posts which are being created. Instead of the Opposition trying to find fault, sometimes a policy speech should be taken for its principle . Even if it is like a person it is only fair to pay tribute to him or to admire him if he has made obvious achievements . If anybody was powerful and should overthrow the whole world , it was the Devil , but what I like about the activities of the Devel is that he is able to put people together and make them do things according to his wish. That is what I term organisational ability. (Laughter) I want to say : Praise the Devil if he manages. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. The hon. member from Butterworth has a loud sonorous voice and is making a lot of noise . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Some people have a habit of finding fault with a person just because they dislike him, even if that person has done something good. From the outset the hon. Minister stated in 1966 that there would be Bantu magistrates in the Transkei and that has actually happened , but merely because some people have lost the opportunity of becoming magistrates or can no longer be magistrates they just want to sling mud. Why don't you go back home and teach your children and your grandchildren about the very beautiful things that have been done in the Transkei ? Imagine today what the position is going to be when we already have prosecutors and there are going to be more prosecutors something unknown formerly. You cannot have experienced the difficulty if you have not stood in a court of law, prosecuted by someone whose language you did not understand and misinterpreted by a court interpreter. You can imagine the day when the presiding officer is a Black man, the prosecutor a Black man and everybody is speaking the same language so there will be no necessity for you to engage the services of an attorney. But that does not mean that law is going to be forgotten. Whether
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I think in my policy speech I mentioned that certain services are carried out by my department on an agency basis but for his own sake the speaker might as well leave these remarks for the discussion on the Department of the Interior. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Then why give these figures in your policy speech?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It was just as a matter of interest , to show some of the duties of my department. CHIEF NDAMASE : They do come under your department. They are paid out by your department. You should also see that bribery is not practised in your department. The 144 .
shown the Black people can manage police stations and that supports what we say · that Black and White are equal even mentally. We say that the Transkei Government must also take over those stations which are under the supervision of the White people and they must be under our Department of Justice ....
the magistrate is Black or the prosecutor is Black, the law remains the same . Who is there who is so ungrateful as not to appreciate such a statement? Look at the police stations which are going to be manned by our own people. You have eyes - why can't you see these things ? We should also be thankful to the hon. Minister and his department in connection with the establishment of these regional courts because we discussed this matter only last year and it is going to show the power of chieftainship in these territories . The habit of appeals lying to the magistrates ' offices and bypassing the paramount chief will cease . Why should we not be thankful for that step which has been sanctioned by the State President of the Republic? It means that the paramount chiefs will resume their former place. There is just this one point about which I would like to make a recommendation to the hon. Minister. The police are reluctant to go into matters that take place in the rural areas . That is a complaint which comes from the people . Something serious happens and the police dilly-dally a long time before they go out. Another matter we would like you to look into is the use of the police vehicles . It has happened in our area that when something happens and the vehicle is needed , it cannot be found, the excuse being that the vehicle cannot be driven by Bantu drivers. Finally, Mr. Chairman, a recommendation in regard to the rondavels which are used by the police - I think the use of these should be discontinued . I think your department should endeavour to see to it that our police are better housed .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you supporting separate development? MR. MNYANI : ....even if there is a White Minister. There are many things which cause one to complain , which are done by the police in town. One would think the police are neglecting their duties because we have been given selfgovernment and so that people should do one another harm . At the bus-stop the crowd of "tsotsis" practise their pranks by pickpocketing the school fees given to children and the police just stand there watching. The police are dressed in mufti and they are only interested in arresting the women who sell fruit. That is what is done by a policeman - a cruel action. Another wrong perpetrated by the police , and even the White police do this , is to confiscate the baskets of good peaches and other produce , which these women carry on their heads , before these women can sell it, and the women are told they are being arrested. When they arrive at the charge office they are told they are forgiven but they must not do it again. All the time the police just wanted to get hold of these peaches and bottle them . (Laughter) You see the police taking the oranges and peaches from these women and throwing them on the street. These women are trying to raise money in order to support their children. They carry what they are going to sell in clean containers . Now, after these articles have been thrown to the ground they become dirty, but the women collect them and replace them in their containers to be sold and eaten. Those matters should be noted and our people should not be so oppressed now that we are under self-government. Although we have been given freedom of movement, still here in Umtata the pass regulations are being enforced .
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to be able to speak in connection with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice . The first important point which I noticed in his speech was in regard to the peaceful conditions prevailing in the Transkei , and I confirm that statement. I take it that he also feels that the retention of Proclamation R400 is unjustified. This proclamation is simply retained so that the people of the Transkei cannot enjoy any freedom because ten people cannot gather anywhere in one place to discuss any matters affecting the Transkei in case they may be arrested. They have also taught their father, the Republican Government, in this respect · that if you have to maintain order as far as the people are concerned you must make similar regulations to Proclamation R400 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : When did we pass that law?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What pass do you mean? MR . MNYANI : It is something similar to a pass - I mean the pass to the location. Something bad happens in that location - a location which came into existence through Chief Ngangelizwe . A person comes into town to consult a doctor and this person misses the bus home . She goes to the location and asks for a place to sleep and then the police , the cruel people , raid the houses and even if these police belong to the council the Government should consult with the council so that these people are not ill-treated. I have already said I support the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa with regard to the construction of suitable houses for the police . The hon . Minister also said his department is an agent of other departments with regard to certain matters connected with agriculture . This is what I want to say about that : In some instances when people in a rural location have accepted rehabilitation the magistrate does not go to that
Just a question :
MR. MNYANI : I will not even worry to listen to you . Do what you want to do. (Laughter) I say so because the Republican Government has now introduced the BOSS law. As far as accommodation is concerned in connection with the police , I support the statement made by the last speaker, in particular with regard to the Transkei police. As they had a complaint that they were not provided with accommodation I believe they have been stopped from occupying those rondavels and as a result they have had to go and stay in the rural locations and travel long distances . We are also grateful that he has 145 .
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make a few remarks in connection with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice . It is expected of all the Ministers to bring a certain report in connection with their different departments , and after they have read their policy speeches it is our duty to make certain comments on matters contained therein . The hon. Minister said that when he was Minister of this department on a previous occasion he intimated that there would be certain appointments and his promise has now been fulfilled because he mentioned that nine such appointments have been made . He also mentioned the opportunities available for education in law at Fort Hare . These bursaries are of great importance and if there were more funds the number The hon. of bursaries could be increased . Minister spoke about certain police stations which are managed by Black people . We know of some which are today managed by Africans . The police are friends of the community and they should be so , because they are of great help to people . There are certain matters which should be taken into account, in particular where stations were managed by White officers and have now been taken over by Africans . The tendency with these police is to try to instil fear into people. Let me give you an example of one station which is supervised by an African policeman. When the police go out to search for a certain person in the location and they find him attending a religious service , even if the parson is giving Communion to the people the policeman steps into the church, walks up to the wanted person and takes him out without saying a word, and then puts him into the van. That disturbs the service of Holy Communion. because all the people look round to see what is happening and some of them go out of the church . Such an action is a great distrubance , in particular when religious services are being carried on. The reason why policemen act in such a manner is because they want to appear powerful and instil fear into people . We appeal to the Department of Justice to take note of such actions and to stop the occurrence of this sort of thing . We have always requested , and we shall continue to request again and
location in person, but it is only the headman or chief accompanied by two councillors. If people want rehabilitation and the magistrate does go out personally and speak to the people , the people will have nothing to say because they applied for rehabilitation. I am also pleased to note from the hon. Minister's statement that the population is increasing . ( Laughter ) I was displeased to hear that there are certain people who go around saying we should practice birth control , yet one person said if a White man has a great number of children he will be given a bonus for that. (Laughter) PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the policy speech of the hon. Chief Matanzima is quite in order. Everything is clear and it is clear to anyone who is reasonable. I admire it and I notice a great deal of improvement reflected in the policy speech. You will see that in connection with the police quite a lot is being done for them. Some are taught drill and others driving and so on. That is admirable . You will also note the number of social beneficiaries , which is something done for the benefit of the people by this department. That shows there , is development in this department . As you see , much has been done by this department, according to the policy speech, and I hope you will not agree to the proposed reduction of his salary. Some people like the hon. member who has just sat down have spoken about Proclamation R400 . Let that proclamation be retained, as it will not worry anyone who is not troublesome . If you try to be a clever one only then will that proclamation follow you. I want to say you must leave it alone. I am referring to members across the floor. They should not speak about this proclamation. The hon. Mr. Mnyani has just done so . I think it will please you to hear that the number of home guards has been decreased and I think that money will now be used for people who cannot do anything for themselves . There are only a few home guards now to look after the chiefs . I know the hon. Mr. Majija is going to suggest that the chiefs should be guarded by counsellors . You had better get rid of that idea and allow the chiefs to be guarded by the home guards. I will be brief, Mr. Chairman , but I want to say there is nothing wrong with the policy speech. It is quite good and its standard is quite high. The policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister was also good , as well as that of the hon. the Minister of Education . Even this speech is of the same standard. Unless you are a jealous man or a troublemaker you will agree that so far these policy speeches are excellent , if you will allow me to say so , and that is quite veracious . (Laughter) I can see that the hon. members are not quite attentive because they simply say what they like. Let us not do that, because to do that is abominable and awkward . (Laughter) Hon. members , agree with the policy speech today and forget trouble . I see quite a lot has been done through this policy speech and I am thankful for it and I pay tribute to it. I thank the hon. the Minister of Justice . Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to say a few We on this side of the House agree words . with the policy speech .
again, that the wives of these policemen should receive free medical attention. That is one thing which is fitting because the wives are in the same position as others who receive this assistance . In his statement the hon. the Minister of Finance stated that there were increments in the salaries of all public servants , including the police . We would be very grateful if that is so because a policeman who was engaged far from home refused to return home on the grounds that his salary was better there . Mention has been made of the registration of births and deaths . The figures have been quoted but I am sure they are not correct because in the locations there is a great number of people who should have been registered but who were not registered. I know you cannot do otherwise because you accept the numbers given to you, but we who live in the locations know there are some people who have not been registered. We request that a proper investigation should be undertaken . You mentioned traffic officers , and these officers are also very necessary in 146 .
CREATION OF NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP TRIBE
the locations on all the roads because accidents cause a great many deaths on the roads and in this regard people should have some training . I know it is unpopular with the people but under these conditions it is necessary for some step to be taken. We also appeal to you as Minister of Justice to tell these people to be sympathetic in cases where it is obvious that the offence has been committed through ignorance. There are those people who commit offences through sheer carelessness and those people should be treated accordingly. The law is broad and it lies in the hands of the man who is entrusted with the law to use his discretion. These regulations
TEM BU
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the fact that this House has been dealing with the Appropriation Bill, I feel this motion should be held over until the completion of the Appropriation Bill and I move that item 8 be held over until the Appropriation Bill has been completed . What I will do in the meantime is just to move the motion in order to get it on the order paper, and I will move that the discussion on the motion be held over. I move accordingly:-
should be taught even in the schools . CREATION OF A NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP : TEMBU TRIBE : MATYENGQINA TRIBAL AUTHORITY : UMTATA : HEADMAN ALBERT BAM BILANGA NXEKO DALINDYEBOMTIRARA .
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Chief Minister moves : -
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 6th May, 1970.
(1 ) THAT WHEREAS the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has , in terms of sub- section (1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963 ) , resolved –
WEDNESDAY, 6th MAY , 1970
Prayers were read. that a new chieftainship be created in respect of the Tembu tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority in the Umtata district and that Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mtirara be designated Chief thereof;
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in consultation with my colleagues it has been decided that the House should not sit on Friday this week and should adjourn this afternoon until Monday next week.
(2) AND WHEREAS this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei ; (3) NOW THEREFORE in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub- section ( 2 ) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability -
TABLING OF REPORTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a return reflecting particulars of all persons appointed to positions higher than the entry grades of the Government Service since the commencement of the preceding ordinary session of the Transkei Legislative Assembly.
(a) of creating a new chieftainship in Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority in the Umtata district, and (b) of recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mtirara as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief.
TRANSKEI FINANCE BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963, I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the appropriations and remissions contemplated in the Transkeian Finance Bill , 1970 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Finance Bill , 1970 and I move that the bill be now read a first time .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in seconding this motion by the hon. the Chief Minister I wish to amend the surnames . These two surnames should not both be used . " Mtirara " should be cancelled , leaving "Dalindyebo" as the surname . I brought this matter forward and the person who is going to be installed as chief is my younger brother and I will carry out his installation.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I find myself in a difficulty as to how to change these names because that is how they were
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the bill will be read a second time on Monday, 11th May , 1970 , or so soon thereafter .
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but accidents occur with those vans as with any other vehicle on the road . We appeal to the Government to see to it that these vans should not be away from the station , it being alleged that they are broken. Provision should be made for other vehicles to be available when one of the vans from that particular station is undergoing repairs in the garage . One other matter is the question which was raised by the hon. member for Umtata in connection with the selling of foodstuffs at the bus - stop in Umtata. You will find many people at the bus terminal who want to take a bus to get to their various destinations , and I agree with him that this does take place . In fact, I have also had to buy food there when I was hungry , but the police do come on the scene and do just what has been desThere is a big cribed by the hon. member. business carried on there and that is the sale of Jabulani , but Jabulani is sold inside a building and I thought the hon. member would suggest to the department that the sellers of fresh produce should also have a building in which to sell their wares so that that business will not interfere with the passengers . If the hon. member does not say so I would suggest that that idea be adopted . I therefore appeal to the Government to close an eye to those people because they are supplying food to their own people. Those people should be protected and things should be carried on in accordance with the law. One other matter is the stray stock sold in the pounds and I appeal to the Government to see to it that the Bantu people are given preference in the purchase of such stray stock. That is all I wish to say , Mr. Chairman .
presented to my office . It was the magistrate's office which presented these names to the Chief Minister's office and we cannot change them without delaying this matter again. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, this matter is not going to be discussed now and I suggest that there should be consultation on that name and I think this House can leave it to the hon. the Chief Minister and the hon. Paramount Chief of Tembuland and perhaps the magistrate and officials concerned , and probably the man himself. That is my suggestion , Sir . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the debate on this motion be held over.
Agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House converts itself into committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second .
Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 2 , Department of Justice, was resumed. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the remarks made in regard to the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice , and I endorse all the remarks that have been made . The Department of Justice is not popular with some people who are opposed to law, more especially those people who are opposed to Proclamation R400 , which is the basis of peace in the Transkei. Year in, year out we have before this House a motion asking for the repeal of this proclamation. This department is popular with the chiefs as head of the tribes and they always get assistance from the police in order to do away with disturbances and bring peace among the tribes . One of the important remarks made by the hon. the Minister of Justice is that he told us that African magistrates have been appointed in the Transkei , as well as African Those posts were prosecutors in our courts . formerly not in existence but what he said yesterday was that he told us in 1966 that these posts would be created . He also mentioned that bursaries have been awarded for those students who wish to take up law at the University , which would also support the Department of Justice in the Transkei. All this will encourage development in our country. In congratulating the hon. Minister we also wish to express appreciation for the fact that very many police stations are managed by Bantu. We ask the hon . Minister to give instructions to those people to attend to these matters which affect the people in the locations immediately. We are aware ofthe fact that those officers have been given vans in order to attend immediately to whatever is required,
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , let me assure the hon. the Minister of Justice that there are no fireworks today. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are always ready for fireworks , the two of us. MR. GUZANA: My own view is that having shot a bird down, there is no need to fire another shot when it is dropping in front of you. (Laughter) Sir, you have made reference to police stations manned by Transkei citizens and you have indicated that responsibility is given to these men to run the station and to maintain law and order in their area of jurisdiction . I wonder if at some of these stations a rather difficult situation has been created where you have a Transkeian African appointed as station commander and at the same time a European member of the South African Police is stationed at the same police station . I concede that this may be practical policy in order to guide these men, that your intention is not to make an abrupt change which might result in a failure of the administration of justice , but my worry is over the fact that the European individual placed at these stations is sometimes of a lower rank than the Transkeian African who is at that station. This results in disciplinary complications and also situations where the station commander has to receive instructions from a member of the South African Police Force of a rank lower than that held by the station commander. I have noticed that these Transkeian police who are at the head of these stations are quite
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willing to consult with the members of the SAP at the stations , but would it not be better , Sir, if a European member of the SAP is to be at a station manned by an African station commander, that the European member of the SAP be of a senior rank than the station commander? May I also suggest that these African station commanders should be aware of their position of seniority over other African members of the Transkei Police Force . There seems to be at these stations a spirit of Hail fellow, well met, slap-on-the -shoulder comradeship and what have you between the African station commander and his subordinates. In the police force we expect something approximating military discipline and this sort of thing is certainly not going to result in efficient and immediate compliance with instructions . You have made reference to certain personnel trained legally at Fort Hare and I think your department is concerned mainly with providing judicial officers. I wonder if your department has considered training public prosecutors independent of the police force ? You see, the policeman goes out to investigate a case , comes back and now prosecutes in the same case that he has investigated. It cannot be said that he can become altogether impartial or unbiassed in the presentation of a case which he himself has investigated. Is it not therefore a wiser policy, so that justice is seen to be done , that your department earmarks some of the people who are trained legally to become public prosecutors ? You have mentioned that three members have attended a two-months ' prosecutors ' course at Ga- Rankuwa. I presume that they have had legal training before that two months ' course? If that is not so then I think it is a waste of time to expect results from a two-months ' prosecutors course In unless it is merely a refreshers ' course . view of your statement relating to a musical course for four months , what about these men giving us a tune ? ( Laughter) Let us draw a favourable comparison between them and the band that comes down from Johannesburg. You have mentioned, Sir , that your intention is to run an efficient service for the people of the Transkei and that this is a matter to which you are committed according to our custom and in a Transkei which is our own. I think this question The soil of ownership is over-emphasized . does not belong to us; we belong to the soil : "Out of the dust you came ; unto the dust wilt thou return. " (Laughter) This becomes an obsession that militates against objectivity and what is this service according to our custom ? Which custom ? Are you implying the development of the Department of Justice according to traditional lines and that this efficient service is going to be geared to what grandfather and great-grandfather did , for instance , when he meted out justice to a witch? (Laughter) Let us accept the fact that efficient service requires certain qualities which are common to all nations and let us disabuse ourselves of this magnificent obsession about customary tendencies . What is best for the people ? - that is the question. Let us do what is best for them whether it be customary or otherwise . Then I come , Sir, to your favourable comment on the appointment of magistrates . You have referred to your prophecy in 1966. How proud you must be
that that prophecy has been fulfilled ! But you had somebody who went before you - the hon. member for Tsomo who had this dream right back, I think, in 1947. I did participate in the installation of one of these officers and you will agree that we struck the right note there . I am worried over the nomenclature which is applied to so-called assistant magistrates . These men are said to be assistant magistreates and they are not legally qualified . They do not draw the salary of an assistant magistrate because they are either senior clerks or clerks , Grade 1. Is it not really misleading that they should be described as assistant magistrates when first of all they are not legally qualified , they do not receive the salary of an assistant magistrate ? The result of this misplaced nomenclature is that these men may rest on their laurels and never qualify . I am reminded of a man who in 1950 or 1951 was writing exams and he is still where he was today, and the appellation " assistant magistrate " seems to be a misnomer . These men must know that they must qualify before they can carry the designation, and because they are not qualified some merely come to the bench to remand cases and no more . Now , Sir, this is not right and I suggest that you look into this matter , and in this regard I would like you department to see to it that these men who are assistant magistrates have accommodation to live with their families and have adequate accommodation in the offices where they are working . You take what impression is created to the ordinary peasant who comes to see the assistant magistrate and finds him leaning over the counter with clerks around him , and that is the only place where he can This is a matter for your be interviewed . attention , Sir. Now, I am also worried about the plight of the Transkeian police . I am informed that they have members who are of a high rank, who are supposed to handle matters of discipline and transfer relating to these men. The complaint is that the functions of these men are not performed , nor is their advice required when any matter relating to the Transkei police comes up for discussion or for The Transkei police complain , deliberation . therefore , that they are handled in a rather shoddy manner . They will be transferred without regard as to whether or not there is accommodation in the new station for themselves and their families , and when they raise the question of accommodation they are told to put up houses at their expense . There is no reimbursement either if they again should be transferred, and the incoming policeman may well refuse to buy over the house. Now, this is a matter of administration and I think, having said the word, something will be done so as to remove real and imaginary grievances which we may find amongst the Transkei police . I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Justice a pointed question : Why is it that a judicial officer appointed by his department on a recommendation of the Civil Service Commission has not up to now taken up his appointment ? I think the hon. the Minister of Justice knows about this and I do not want to canvass it. I would rather give him an opportunity to make a statement on the matter . As the hon. the Chief Minister has always said : Why don't you ask - why
149.
1966 and the time that you joined the department, because , to throw a compliment, you have laid the foundations since 1963. Through you to the ex- Minister of Justice may we express thanks to him for holding the fort but putting up a higher floor whilst he was in charge . What sins shall we visit on you which are his responsibility? If we cannot do that then I think we are justified in giving him credit for what he did during that period . Sir , I have noticed that there are fewer and fewer bottle - store licences and special authorities to deal in liquor being issued recently. I am of a very simple mind and this is my conclusion - that
jump to conclusions ? I don't jump to concluI would like a statement . Sir , I refer sions . to page 3 of the Transkeian Public Service Commission's Report. I am worried over the fact that you have 15 vacant posts in your department. What is being done about that? Isn't it possible that administration in your department is handicapped by lack of staff for which posts have been provided ? You see , that is quite unnecessary , regard being had to note 6 under that head , when the Public Service Commission indicates that it may well be necessary to have seconded officials coming in to take up some of these vacant posts which we find in the other department also, though I am speaking particularly of your department. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Transkeian or Republican.
Rode Trading Company and Associates is interested in the hotel business and that company is beginning to create a preserve and a monopoly by not recommending special authorities or by not granting bottle - store licences lest these should compete with the expanding monopoly of the hotel business in the Transkei under the Rode Trading Company and Associates . (Laughter) Now, I do not want to jump to conclusions again, but you know the direction of a slight breeze by the direction of the light feathers that float in the breeze . We are not able to say what velocity this wind will develop but we see the direction. It is over to you , Sir , on this point. I want to thank the hon. the Minister of Justice, together with his staff and personnel , for making an effort to make life safe in the Transkei . I must record my appreciation to the police department for following up some of the criticisms which were levelled against that departWe are not ment last year in this House . ungrateful for services done and if your department takes note of our criticisms and finds proof of our criticisms , then we are gratified to know that something is done to remedy those irregularities. When I feel particularly loving towards my grandchild I usually ruffle her hair and she laughs joyously. Now, I don't know what to do about you , Sir. ( Laughter)
It says
MR. GUZANA : Yes, the Commission goes on to say that of the 257 vacant prescribed posts 43 are for the foreseeable future likely to have to be filled by Republican officers . What I would like to know is whether or not your department has motivated a request to have some of the 15 posts filled by possible Republican officers , and with what results . I would like the hon. the Minister of Justice to explain what he means by having officers out of adjustNote 3 seems to indicate that certain ment. people are held against these posts even though they are not qualified. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Not necessarily. They may be more qualified and holding a post which is below their qualification. That's right , either way. MR. GUZANA: Now, the man who holds a higher qualification than the post he holds why is he not designated to the higher grade ? The one who has a lower grade than the post against which is is held , is he getting the salary of the post and the work he is doing ? He is a grade 2 clerk and he is doing the work of a grade 1 clerk and is held against that post, is he getting the salary of a grade 1 clerk although still graded as a grade 2 clerk in view of the fact that he is doing the work of a grade 1 clerk? I am speaking specifically in relation to your department as this comment could well go through all the departments, but to you I look for a reply. I would rather this policy speech did not give the impression that nothing has happened in this department since you left until you came back to it. (Laughter) I hope that impression in my mind is erroneous . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : erroneous · very.
CHIEF M.A.B. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in speaking to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice , I can find no fault but I have two recommendations to make . A hardship is suffered by our people who have to go to police stations where they find no shelter under which they can wait while their business is being considered . We would like some sort of accommodation , such as that provided in magistrates ' offices . There is another new development, Mr. Chairman. Formerly, if anyone was injured the police went with the district surgeon to the scene of the accident to hold a post-mortem . Today the practice is for the members of the police force to go to the scene of the accident to take the body to the police station, where the postmortem is held. We request that the old practice be reverted to whereby dead bodies were attended to at their homes . The majority of the people dislike the idea of dead bodies being moved about in police vans . Formerly the district surgeon went into the law court to give his report, but today there is a new practice and a written report is submitted by the district surgeon to the court so that sometimes when the prosecutor is not able to read the writing of the doctor there is some difficulty. If it is
It is very
MR. GUZANA : But you have said , Sir "I left in May, 1966 and since then..." THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : what happened?
Since then
MR. GUZANA: As if all that has happened between 1966 and now is all of no consquence . (Laughter) Let me suggest that all that has happened to the good has happened between
150 .
I was also a victim to pickpocketing there and because I placed my complaint with the magistrate the police went to my home quickly . Another matter I wish to mention is when someone has sustained an injury or a woman meets difficulty in childbirth and there is no telephone available . Usually the storekeeper will say that if you haven't 5c. for the telephone call he is not prepared to allow you to use the ' phone. Once no- one present had 5c . and people were running hither and thither as this woman was in danger of losing her life through childbirth . When we referred this matter to the magistrate he said we should pay out of our own pockets We were and then get refunded afterwards .
at all possible we would like the district surgeon to appear in court and give the report personally: Again, Mr. Chairman , this department is the department associated with the people in their activities and we request that if vacancies occur they should be filled without delay, so that the people should not suffer any hardship because of shortage of staff. The transfer of officers from one department to another results in moneys voted for the use of that department not being utilized . We request that before an officer is transferred his successor should be known. Again, Mr. Chairman , if you look at the roll of cases coming before the chiefs ' courts one notices that a great number of those cases are those over which the chiefs have no jurisdiction . We request, therefore , that certain types of cases be heard in the chiefs ' courts . We also request that the policy of the magistrates should be uniform, to avoid a change of policy from one magistrate to that of the one who succeeds him . I mention a hardship that is sometimes suffered by widows . Take the case of a widow whose husband dies at the labour centre , and at his death he is in arrear with his local tax for ten years . One magistrate ruled that the widow must pay the arrear tax while another magistrate is sympathetic and orders the payment of local tax from the date of death of her husband so that she can enjoy the land rights . We request uniformity in the decisions of the magistrate in these matters. Those are the recommendations I put before you , Sir.
thankful when you told us about the training in drill and music . I would be pleased if you would also see to it that Black people should be trained in the use of arms , because this is going to be a state which will require an army. One incident happened at our place when a policeman had gone to arrest a person after someone had been injured . He pulled out a revolver and fired , and the person accompanying the policeman was killed. This indicates that these police are being given weapons without being taught how to use them. These are points I wished to mention. I was pleased with your policy speech because you included in it all the things which are needed by the people . Lastly I am going to refer to the law relating to thieves . At my place I arrested a certain thief on three occasions . This thief told me I would do him no harm because he went far away to steal the sheep. I spoke to the magistrate and to the prosecutor , asking that this person should be arrested because he had been thieving for a very long time . He was convicted by the magistrate and when the documents were returned from Grahamstown this person was acquitted and he came past my place to tell me he was out of trouble . I believe the fault lies with the man who makes up the indictment . This man was apparently only indicted for theft and not for receiving stolen property. Sometimes the fault is laid on the investigating officers and yet the truth is that the charge has not been properly recorded . Lastly, I am going to speak about a head constable who is known as a dog-master. At my place a shop has been broken into on eight occasions . When this man came along with the dog he went to the window and smeared something on it and did not let the dog loose. At one time we nearly fought because I had collected residents from the location so that the dog should be allowed to find out the culprit and that particular officer did not pay any attention to such a Kaffir as myself. When my father was chief in that locality I know that when these dogs were brought they were let loose after the people had been gathered . Even if I do not know the correct channels I place this matter before you , because that storekeeper who is a White man stayed with us in the location and he may suspect I am also collaborating with the thieves . ( Laughter)
MR. W.C. SINGATA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to stand up after the last speaker who said something sensible , in particular in regard to the dead bodies . According to Native custom the Black people do not desire that corpses should be taken to their kraals when a person has met death through accident . The hon. the Minister of Justice is not a slave to law and he knows the wants of the people . Even if we should explain many things that are not in order , we know he can put them right. Here in Umtata at the bottom end of town is a place where they sell Jabulani . This Jabulani beerhaal has been situated in the wrong place as a result of which many people have been robbed of their money . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Iwonder how that is connected with the Vote in question? MR. SINGATA : I am coming to my point , because this is connected with the police . In the Daily Dispatch of the 2nd April there is a statement made by a certain person and this is what he said: "We are getting tired of this as we have no response from the authorities after complaints . We are seriously considering taking the law into our hands to rid the town of this menace . " This is the reply given by the police: " A police statement said yesterday that the police had not received any complaint concerning the gangs but that the matter would be investigated and a complaint be made . " What we suggest is that where this beerhaal is situated there should be people appointed as civil guards or reservists. These people know how to arrest a person without inflicting injury.
The debate was adjourned .
The 151 .
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
is customary that when one leaves the Great Place another takes his place . Any chief can appoint his own counsellors , but it should be seen to that they are paid . I want to know from the chiefs who are for the reduction of the Vote how these people are going to be paid. 109 CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the speaker the difference between a counsellor and an employed constable , because there are these home guards who are guarding the chiefs and they are not counsellors. I want to know the difference .
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 2 , Department of Justice , was resumed. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to give my full support to the speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice and my speech will be brief because it is clear that the Opposition has now joined us in our effort to develop. Their co-operation shows we should decide on what matters we should develop . It is not necessary to point out the achievements and things which have not been done , because all the previous speakers have mentioned these , but allow me to bring forth the results of recommendations from people to show that good work can be done by this department. I want to go back to the words of the last speaker and dwell on them before I forget them , because what he said is general outside . I am thinking of terrorists who are trained in communist countries and who come and practise terrorism in our country , and they want to extend this terrorism into the Transkei . We are thankful to the Republican Government for their efforts to stop this infiltration . No man worthy of the name of man will be happy if he has always to rely for his defence on another man. As the Republic has given us self-
MR. SIHELE : I have no time to waste on any old women and I bypass the question. I will now touch on a request from Elliotdale . Reports from Elliotdale indicate that that district is very backward. A request comes from the village of Elliotdale that there should be lights at night so that burglars can be spotted. This is another matter which, if it comes under your department, should be seen to so that if lights are requested by any district they can be supplied. It is important that we see to it that this country is a fine country , but we cannot do that if we are a young state. That is why we wish that every time we should be helped to develop . Another matter you should consider is that people who go to police stations should be treated as human beings , because in doing so they are going to their fathers and they should not be subject to assault. It has become the order of the day for assaults at charge offices - so much so that recently a woman was assaulted . Another important person was ill-treated at a police station. How can that happen when one runs to one's parents and one is ill- treated? With those few words , Mr. Chairman, we know there will be no better department than yours because your department is our own father.
government it should also witness our own efforts in that direction. It should also encourage this country of ours to stand up for itself and fight for itself. There is no other way of doing this except by training our people and our police officers methods of defence . The Republican Government should be aware that we do not intend to rise against them but we are intending to help them fight against those people who come into this country. ( Interjections) One hon. member asks me how I am going to be armed. I am not going to arm myself with an assegai or a knife . The Republican police should be trained in machine - gun work which will enable them to protect this country. I will now revert to a point which I know is distasteful to the Opposition. I refer to home guards . I want to refer to them as counsellors . They were there when this set-up first started and the home guards are there really just to look after the chiefs . This is what led to the paying of home guards . I continually use the wrong word " home guards " . They are really counsellors and the chiefs were deprived of money which they used to pay for counsellors who used to be at the Great Place. These counsellors who used to be at the Great Place were not actually paid money but they used to be there and their families were looked after and they were given a beast at the Great Place . They were messengers of the court and when they brought any cattle to be attached some of those cattle were given to them . Now, those cattle which used to belong to the counsellors are now paid to the tribal How are the chiefs going to pay authorities . these counsellors , because in any case they must be at the Great Place ? That is why we
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I think we have now reached the stage when we should consider these two amendments . The first amendment is by the hon. Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa and I now call upon him to move. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move this amendment : That the salary of the Minister should be reduced in Vote 2 by R3,800 . If you compare his salary which is reflected in this Vote , the hon. Minister will receive the very same amount that is received by the members of the House . What do we eat? Are we like bicycles ? If you pump air into a bicycle tyre it will be able to go for a great distance . ( Laughter) I very much regret the sins of the hon. Minister which, in fact, were not committed by him , will have to be answered for by him. He will have to bear the sins of other people although in fact he is no sinner . There are a few points I wish to touch on. First of all, the magistrates and their promotions - if you turn to page 33 of the Transkei 1970 year book you will find a list and when you look at the list showing the magistrates of the districts you will find it is only about seven magistrates who have the qualification of Civil Service Senior Law. I
suggest they should be paid so that these people who live at the Great Place should get something. I want to say that I disagree with the reduction in the Vote for home guards . It
152.
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is pleasing to note that my cousin knows one swallow does not make a summer ,
will not say much about the others because they have nothing . Nobody will dispute the fact that there are some magistrates who are still hindered very much. Although a lot has been said about certain Black magistrates the hon. Minister stated in his speech that there is one magistrate who has been promoted to the grade of senior magistrate. What summer is brought by only one swallow? I do not think there is any other vacancy except that of principal magistrate . The reason why there are no principal magistrates is because there are no people qualified to become principal magistrates . There are certain magistrates who are qualified in law but I do not see them. If you look at page 9 of the Estimates you will see a scale of pay of the principal magistrate , which is R3,126x120-4,206 . I also look at the post of senior magistrate which is R2,886x120-3,966. From what I know in the Republic the principal magistrate had a fixed salary and I think that even the senior magistrate had a fixed scale . Why should this not prevail with us ? Please take note of that. I will now turn to the residences occupied by the assistant magistrates . Buildings to accommodate these people should be erected. Just fancy meeting a magistrate in the location commonly known as the "back" location, occupying a rondavel nextdoor to a place usually occupied by a law- breaker . The magistrate one day has to pass sentence against this man and if he is a friend of mine I know where the magistrate stays and I may wish to avenge myself on him for what he has done to my friend . I will now go on to the treatment meted out to the Black people on the road by the police who show no respect. While travelling along the road you will find barricades erected and you have to stop. You find a car driven by a White man is allowed to pass and you are stopped and your belongings are searched in a most disgraceful manner. If you start questioning the police , knowing you are not carrying any dagga with you, the next thing you will get a blow from a clenched fist or a knock with a baton, or you will be kicked. If you are going along with your wife and children you receive the same ill- treatment. That is done in the What about your presence of your family. self-respect? They can find nothing wrong and then you are told you are a free man. When a person is being chased in a car , why is it that the driver is shot at and not the car? Once it happer d that the passenger was shot. There is another thing which should be noted. If there is a fight between a Black man and a White man you will find the result of that fight is that the Black man will be arrested and locked up and you don't know what happens to the White man, but ultimately you will find he is a witness for the State. ( Laughter) I don't like these happenings because they create illfeeling among the people . Another thing you will find is that these magistrates who have been appointed and are fully qualified are occupied only with the remanding of cases , and their colleague , who is a White man and who is not fully qualified, sits on the bench and takes cases.
MR. L. Z. MAJIJA :
but is he aware that this swallow is going to lay eggs which will result in chickens and then many swallows? I am very pleased that what he complains of is ill-treatment at the hands of the police and dissension between Black and White has happened at his place . Where does this policy of multi-racialism come in then? He seems to support me . Does he not support our policy of separate development when he quotes the case of two people , one White and the other Black, being arrested and the White man being made a witness? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I want to remind the hon. member that we are discussing the amendment now, we are not discussing the different policies . CHIEF JUMBA: I thought I was in order, Mr. Chairman. I say that the hon. Minister's salary should remain as it is because all that has been complained about here is what appears in his speech . MR . R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment. R3,800 is quite a sizeable sum to slice off a man's salary . However, the hon. Minister must deserve to earn so much money. It is my painful duty to have to charge my hon. friend with duplicity in his policy speech . He told us that there is peace and quiet in the Transkei and with the same breath he gave us statistics of the crime rate in the Transkei. 31,000 criminal prosecutions in the course of twelve months ! - Surely an alarming state of affairs . More people charged criminally than there are registered voters in Nqamakwe. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : rison!
What a compa-
MR. MADIKIZELA: It is a fair comparison. And when we break that figure down we find that roughly 1,200 people are prosecuted per district per year - another disturbing feature of our justice . I submit that that is an uneasy The hon. peace and quiet in the Transkei . Minister has also told us about the appointment of three citizens of the Transkei as magistrates in their own right, a matter of which we are all of us fully appreciative , but he omitted to tell us of the limited jurisdiction which these officers enjoy. They can only hear cases in which the citizens of the Transkei are involved. White persons within the districts are beyond their ordinary jurisdiction. It is a principle of law that law is a respecter of no How can the hon. the Minister of persons . Justice justify this state of affairs ? This must surely cause hurt to the ego of the particular These White persons magistrate concerned. come to the offices to pay their taxes ; they come to the offices for this permit and that, but when it comes to matters of justice they are a little beyond the reach of the magistrate . It is also a principle of law that an alien in a strange country is also subject to the laws of We on this side of the House that country.
I second the amendment.
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to use that knowledge .
In so far as I could gather from the last speaker's speech there is neither knowledge nor power. ( Laughter) I was still harping on the string of the promotions of magistrates and I would like the hon. the Minister of Justice , in fact, to make a statement in regard to the question I am going to put to him now. Why was an acting assistant magistrate appointed in a certain district with limited jurisdiction to try cases ? It was an acting appointment although he was a fully qualified man , and there was no assistant magistrate . For whom was he acting? Maybe , perhaps, in frustration and despondency that man decided to leave the service . I will now come to the question of congestion in the magistrate's office . If you turn to page 8 of the Estimates of Expenditure under Administration you will find there is only one post for Departmental Inspector. Now, there are 26 districts in the Transkei and however exceptionally efficient or proficient that man is , do you think he can cope and do justice to that work? Can he inspect these offices satisfactorily? I put that to you , Sir. Now I come to the question of public prosecutors. Our courts , in fact, are courts of law, not of morality . In our courts justice must be done and be seen to be done , then the dignity and decorum of the court must be kept . You find that some of the White prosecutors do not want to prosecute where an African magistrate is sitting on the bench. When it comes to the legal profession the African attorney is at liberty to defend a White client; an African is at liberty to cross - examine any type of witness in the court, be he Black , yellow or brown, and that redounds to the credit of the decorum of our courts . Why then should this type of thing be allowed to happen? You find that from attorney to prosecutor and magistrate all those are members of the court . Why should there be this discrimination in our courts ? I put that to you, hon. Mr. Minister of Justice. With those few remarks I stand down , Mr. Chairman.
have never doubted the capability of the citizens of the Transkei to perform any type of duty they are set. Not only is that citizen capable of serving his own colour , he can also serve the members of every colour group . It is commonly said that thieves commune among themselves ; that they will render service to one another and feel gratified for the act, but that does not bring them anywhere near the Kingdom of Heaven. I am sure I have the support of my hon. friend , the Rev. Vika , when I say that. I want to touch on the matter raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in respect of bottle - store licences and licences to sell liquor. The capitalist is as much to be feared as the communist. They can both of them be treacherous , especially to the lesser man. It is the duty of the Department of Justice to guard the interests of the citizens of the Transkei , to see that the small man does not lose his licence for a bottle - store upon circumstances that might border on victimization. A crack in the wall in the premises of the proprietor might quite easily be magnified beyond all proportion, just because the idea is to get rid of the smaller man. The hon. member for Ngqeleni , Chief Ndamase , also mentioned the matter of protection to these people who follow up their lost stock. It is very well known that thieves tend to arm themselves to the teeth and, if you follow the spoor of your stock unarmed, you will be in very great danger . The citizen of the Transkei is in the unfortunate position that he will apply for a licence for a firearm and it will not be granted , nor does he get protection from his traditional weapon , the assegai . If the police are in difficulty they tell the locality to arm and follow them up, but when it is convenient to them they arrest the people for carrying dangerous weapons . I would recommend to the Department of Justice the protection of the citizen of the Transkei . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR . N.L. MADUBELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to oppose the amendment seeking the reduction of the Minister's salary. It would not be justifiable for anyone in his position to get a lower salary. In all government institutions the idea is that no- one should complain that he is starving because we know that if you put your hand in your pocket and find it empty you will be tempted to do something which will place you in jeopardy . I wish to suggest to those who have asked for the reduction of this salary that they try to see what has been done for them and I am sure that they wish that more should be added to what has been received . I cannot see why they should advocate this reduction because I know that they themselves would like an increase. There was no discussion or complaint on the increases in our salaries . Everyone just pocketed what he got. Why should there be a move for a reduction in the salary of the hon. the Minister of Justice ? I will end by saying I see no reason for any reduction. Instead the salary should be increased .
MR . S. DOKOLWANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up as a tug to put the mail steamer across the floor on the right path. (Laughter ) I think the mover of the amendment was confused and could not understand what is contained in the policy speech of the hon. Minister. There is no reason why this reduction of R3,800 should be made in the hon. Minister's salary . I maintain that the salary should be retained as it is. All the speakers are agreed that the Government has seen to it that at least there is order. I see no reason now why there should be a suggestion for the reduction of the hon. Minister's salary. The Opposition suggested certain improvements and they lost themselves while we were listening to their suggestions . It is a difficult thing to examine a personality and not look at the children of that person. I want to say we shall never give in as suggested by the terrorists . All the time my hon. friends are thinking of multiracialism which they do not seem to want, much has been done by the department of Justice since 1963. We no longer have corpses in Elliotdale and battle -axes are a thing of the past. Why then should there be a reduction in the Minister's salary? Along the coast where
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the greatness of man is not in the power of knowledge , but in the power of how
154 .
This money guard the wives of the chiefs . should be done away with and the services of These these home guards dispensed with. people are paid more than the salary of the chief whom they guard. When you make your reply, Mr. Minister, we would appreciate it if you would touch upon and explain what these people are who disturb the sleep of the women when they go to the kraals .
many wrong things are done , and I think some of the hon. members of the Opposition are involved (Interjections ) we get a lot of assistance from the Department of Justice . I am a tug trying to assist the ship to find the right route, and I suggest we leave the salary as it is. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that the MinisIn ter's salary should remain undisturbed. other words , we should not try to interfere with his livelihood. This is his livelihood beYou say the cause he lives on this money. Minister's salary should be reduced and you are the very people who suggested that witness fees be paid to you, but at the same time you are clamouring for the reduction of the Minister's salary. You will never actually be understood by people like me , because as it is I have not understood what my hon. friend was I know he is a man who always tries saying . for his own benefit. I am asking you and your colleagues to withdraw the amendment. Let us view this matter properly. We depend on livelihood and when you spoke of theft you were referring to this same question. What reason is there for the reduction of the salary? You will not be able to suggest any reason right up to the end of the discussion. Let us agree on the withdrawal of the amendment and the retention of the Minister's salary as it is . I have put everything in order that was not in order on the ship. (Laughter)
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the hon. member is able to prove his statement that the home guards sleep with the wives or render them pregnant. MR. KUTU : Hon. paramount chief, I will reply to your question next week. Please put it in writing. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : No, it shall not be written down. I want a reply. MR. KUTU: There are other people in the location known as home guards and they are under the provisions of Proclamation R.400. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, I insist that the hon. member withdraw his remarks about the home guards. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN ; draw that remark?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the hon. Mr. G.G. Kutu to move his amendment.
Will you with-
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, I have said that the hon. paramount chief should write down his question and I will reply to it on Tuesday next week.
MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the amendment : " That Vote 2 , sub-head A (a) Home Guards , be deleted. " We do not know the useful purpose of this money and all moneys should be used on matters of importance. We do not know these people who are called home guards . I do not know what kind of homes are being guarded. There are many hungry people who could be given food with this money . We should do away with these home guards because they were introduced when Proclamation R.400 was promulagated at a time when there were disturbances . You also say there is peace in the Transkei , therefore why should there be home guards? This is another point I wish to draw your attention to: There are certain members of the police , both White and Black, who go into locations during the night time. On the 10th Febrary, 1970 , these police came to our place . They were travelling in about 30 vans . When the police get to a certain place they do not knock at a door . They simply force open the door and flash torches around and remove weapons and sticks. Sticks are broken and any other weapons are taken away. According to Tembu custom, when one wants to slaughter a beast an assegai is used. When these weapons belonging tothe home are taken away....
PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : order. What he says is wrong.
He is out of
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Hon. member, what is required is whether you can prove that the home guards go about doing the things you mention. CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA : On a point of explanation, Mr. Chairman, I think there is something to the effect that you should not mention anyone's name . If you say it is so, then tell us that the names of people may be mentioned in the House . PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: Idemand that the hon. member should withdraw if he cannot prove what he says. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. Mr. Kutu is in order because whilst you are talking here and asking a question it is usually said you must submit your question in writing .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , with all due respect I think the hon. member has gone off his motion.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I think the House will have to follow the directive of the Chairman. The Chairman has already given his directive to the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Kutu.
MR. KUTU: These home guards are responsible for Our wives becoming pregnant. (Laughter ) They stop guarding the chiefs , but
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member withdraw those words alleging misconduct against the home guards ? 155.
MR. KUTU: I was wrong.
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
Mr. Chairman, hon. members ,
CHIEF MABANDLA : tion, Mr. Chairman....
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that this House converts itself into committee of supply.
On a point of explana-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think if a member stands up on a certain point he must follow up that point, but the hon. member stood up on a point of explanation and now he is asking a question.
CHIEF MABANDLA: being asked to explain.
CHIEF J. NTOLA: I second. House in Committee The debate on Vote 2, Department of Justice , was resumed.
Mr. Chairman, I am
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I think we had dealt with the amendments by Mr. Mgudlwa and Mr. Kutu and I think we have sufficiently dealt with the discussions , so I shall now ask the hon. Minister to reply.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Sit down , please , hon. member.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, it would appear that the amendment by the hon. Mr. Kutu was not seconded . Would you not give us further opportunity for discussion , Sir ?
Mr. Chairman, the people I MR. KUTU: have already spoken about and asked that they be done away with . are not good. They have certain unbearable habits . ( Laughter) These habits are not approved of by the people either by the chiefs , the headmen or the ordiNo-one wants the mixing up of nary people. his own clan. There should be no money allocated for such people.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , though we have had so much to say on this policy speech, if we have to follow procedure I do feel that there is substance in what the hon. member for Ngqeleni says because the seconder to the amendment by the hon. Mr. Kutu did not get an opportunity of speaking to the amendment . Unless they felt it was not necessary for the seconder to contribute to the discussion, I feel they should be given an opportunity.
PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO: Mr. Chairman, as Paramount Chief of the Tembus I move the adjournment of the House because now the members have nothing to discuss . (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall then deal with this amendment by the hon. Mr. Kutu. Who is the seconder?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, it is unfortunate that the hon. paramount chief does not happen to be one of the Ministers on this side of the House . With due respect, the hon. paramount chief cannot move an adjournment but I would only move an adjournment for tea and then we will come back at the stipulated time and we can see whether to proceed or not. It is quiet true that the hon. members seem to have reached a saturation vapour point and now they have started wool -gathering .
CHIEF H. ZULU: I am seconding, Mr. Chairman. Luckily for me , I stand up after the hon. When he spoke he Mr. Sihele has spoken. attempted to draw our attention to the custom prevailing with chiefs. He said that the counsellors were taken away from the chiefs but he gave no reason for such an action. He went further to say that the home guards were counsellors of the chiefs and that the counsellors used to get cattle and other things as gifts. Now he wants us to understand that that custom was done away with. Today we are speaking about the payment to these home guards and we say they should not be paid and that it is not necessary that there should be any home guards. A counsellor does not receive payment from the Government, but he only gets anything that is given to him at the chief's place for the work performed by him. I support the mover of this motion in that this money should not be used for payment of home guards but it should be used on some other necessary matter . Though we sympathize greatly with the chiefs who are provided with home guards , the fact is that the people now fear to go to the Great Place because they fear these so- called police . You will find that the position is that the chief leads the life of a chicken which always has a fear. He is always guarded even when he has to do anything that is quite private to himself. There must always be someone watching him, whatever he
The debate was adjourned . AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that you report progress in order that I can move the adjournment of the House .
Agreed to. House Resumed
The
COMMITTEE OF
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until Monday , 11th May, 1970 , at 11 a.m. MONDAY, 11th MAY , 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
156 .
(Laughter) I am saying this because on various matters he was trying to hammer at my department and all his guns were completely misdirected . Firstly, he dealt with the question of rations to chiefs and headmen. That appears in the Vote of the Chief Minister and Finance . That is where he should have directed his remarks. The magistrates of the districts act on the instructions of the department where the Vote has been allocated , and they can do no more nor less than what they have been instructed by that particular department to do. It was the same thing with regard to the workThat is the responsibility of the seekers . Department of the Interior , albeit I hope the hon. the Minister of the Interior has been very much pleased at these remarks because it has made him well aware of what may be coming to him when he delivers his policy speech . He made remarks also in connection with the chiefs ' courts and the cases which are tried by such courts , and that some of those cases are not known in the magistrates ' courts , or that the number of cases that were quoted in my policy speech did not include the number of cases which were tried by the chiefs ' courts . My policy speech dealt with and was concerned with the number of cases recorded , and those tried in the magistrates ' courts , not in the chiefs ' courts . May I also touch on the question of stock thieves and also people who arm themselves while either tracing stock thieves or It was alleged that following up the spoors . the police, instead of following up the stock thieves, turn round and arrest the people who are either following stock thieves or following the spoors , for being in possession of dangerous weapons . In that respect I wish to assure this House that such is not the attitude of the department towards the people who arm them-selves while following stock thieves or searching for lost property. It is a known fact that stock thieves are in the same position as housebreakers and thieves and they make sure that they arm themselves to the teeth whilst on such an errand , and that it would be ridiculous for people who are in search of their lost stock to be unarmed while so searching.
does. As far as the people are concerned this is most unbecoming because it is evident that there is always something that is feared and because of that the chief must always be under gaurd. A person who is guarded does We saw one not enjoy any freedom of life. chief disposing of the guards hanging round him . After the home guard had been dispersed then people attended the Great Place because the people who always have firearms had been dispensed with. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : guards have no firearms .
The home
CHIEF ZULU: The home guards are always armed. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : no firearms .
They have
CHIEF ZULU: Mr. Chairman, I say we should do away with the home guards . CHIEF J.M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is a difference between home guards and bodyguards. Possibly some of the hon. members are not aware of this policy. They never fear the guards of the paramount chiefs. These are different times we are living in. Formerly counsellors used to be given cattle for looking after the chief and when we are in parliament this man goes in the van to take part in the opening of the Assembly. If you have trouble in your rural area in connection with thieves you summon the help of the South African Police , not the counsellors . Through ignorance on your part you rose against your own chiefs which has now given rise to the institution of home guards. How can we leave our chiefs unguarded ? Was there no attack on chiefs in the Engcobo district and did he not encourage those people for no reason? The home guards should remain undisturbed because they do a good job. It is necessary that we should have homeguards who know their job. On that day when people will rise against the hon. Mr. Majija he will then require home guards . (Laughter) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. Minister to reply.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Do you know that some of these men were actually arrested and convicted in the Ngqeleni magistrate's court?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , once again I have to say how profoundly appreciative I am of the manner in which some of the hon. members of the Opposition contributed to the discussion on the Vote of the Department of Justice . It is pleasing to notice that the hon. members across the floor are at last realising what their duty is in this House . May I start off by replying to some of the points raised by some of the hon. members across the floor. I shall start off by referring to the remarks made by the hon. member for Nyanda, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . He reminded me of the beginning of World War No. 2 when the French had the Maginot Line facing the German side of France . All the guns were constructed in such a way as to face Germany and never to face backwards . The Germans pounded the northern part of the Maginot Line and got behind the line , and the guns of the French could not turn back and face the Germans .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am coming to that. I can assure you further that if specific cases are reported to the department they will be investigated and appropriate action taken. So if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would, a few days from now, furnish my department with such concrete information I can assure him that investigations will be made. Mr. Chairman , MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : may I ask if the attitude of the department is transmitted to the police ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If I say the department is not aware of such practices the department would surely not be expected to transmit any information of which it knows nothing. The hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani as usual touched on the question of Proclamation R.400 157 .
of 1960 and wished to know how peace and quiet in the Transkei could be reconciled with the retention of Proclamation R.400 of 1960. Ithink of the many, many times that we have told the hon. members that Proclamation R.400 does not interfere with anybody who does not bump against it. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
the amount voted was R14,000 , and during the financial year under review this ffigure has dropped to R4,200 , and if you compare that with the R14,000 for the financial year 1968/1969 you will really appreciate that these home guards are being brought down very, very appreciably. The hon. Mr. Mnyani also referred to the police arresting people while they are selling produce down near the bus rank. In this respect I would invite him .... Look, to show you are not serious I am just replying to what you said and you are talking to other people. (Interjections)
Order, please .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The former Minister of Justice , Mr. B. B. Mdledle , once put it this way . MR. B.S. MNYANI : May I put a question , Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Justice whether the Cabinet Ministers are exempted from this proclamation . Has it no effect on them? Can the hon. the Minister of Justice attend a concert and whilst at the concert address people and amuse them ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I will invite the hon. member to bring to me specific cases of people being arrested . If he can bring such specific cases I can assure him they will be investigated . For instance , I can quote cases like Queenstown where people sell their produce freely without intereference. The hon. Mr. Jafta referred to the question of free medical treatment for the wives and families of policemen. This , if done , would not be without difficulties and complications . I can cite the following: The regulations under which the Transkeian police serve make no provision for free medical treatment for wives and families of members of the police , but these members did not enjoy this privilege while serving with the South African Police , nor do members of the South African Police have such privileges. Administrative work involved in such a scheme would be considerable , as for instance the Department of Health which does not fall under the Transkeian Government would have to be consulted and interviewed. The consent of the district surgeon would have to be obtained . Not all marriages of the members of the police force are legal and some of them have up to three , four or five wives . Some of them may have many children who are not theirs , but their brothers ' or sisters ' or deceased relatives ' , and control in such circumstances would be nearly impossible . A further complication would be that invariably the members of the force do not live with their families and that there would be difficulties of having to identify in some other district that this is the wife of a policeman, perhaps in Ngqeleni , whilst the husband is serving in Umzimkulu . Another difficulty would be this , as far as the Government of the Transkei is concerned : If such a scheme would be evolved for the Transkei police , the officials of the other departments would make a claim that their wives and families too should receive free medical treatment. Now, those are practical difficulties which would be inherent in such a scheme . There is one other thing I left out while dealing with the hon. member for Umtata , Mr. Mnyani , where he alleged that in cases dealing with the rehabilitation scheme magistrates should go out to have meetings with the people who are allegedly said to have accepted the scheme . Now, there is an Act of the Transkeian Government dealing with soil improvement, and the procedure there is well set out and I hope the hon. member will deal with that matter when he deals with the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, because that is
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If this world did not have jesters it would really be a weary world. (Interjections ) Proclamation R.400 is like this , as the former Minister of Justice , Mr. Mdledle , once said. He has a shotgun at his place and he is keeping it there so that if there should be a need to use it he will not hesitate to use it. It is the same thing as Proclamation R.400 . It is kept so that if there should be a need to use it the Department of Justice will not hesitate to use it. I am always intrigued that it is always the Opposition which is always quarrelling against the existence of Proclamation R.400 . (Interjections) I am always intrigued that it is always the Opposition which is always against the retention of home guards for the chiefs. I at the same time , while dealing with Proclamation R.400 , would like to deal simultaneously with the retention of bodyguards to the chiefs . ( Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please .
Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The hon. member from Butterworth said that the people are even afraid to go to the chiefs ' homes because of the presence of home guards . He even alleged that they are afraid of being arrested . Now, I think that statement bordered a little on ignorance . The home guards have no powers of arrest. Nobody has ever been arrested by home guards . In any event it is not a new innovation to have important people and high dignitaries being guarded . (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Will the hon. member in the corner please keep silent.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think the hon. member, Mr. Mnyani , will save me the trouble of saying something directly to you. You are disturbing me . When you people speak we make it a point to keep quiet and listen to you. Now, I wish to assure the hon. members that the department is on the way to reducing home guards to the chiefs considerably. For instance , during the financial year 1968/1969
158 .
MR. K.M. GUZANA :
the department which gives instructions to the magistrate with regard to such a scheme . The hon. member for Qumbu , Mr. Jafta , referred to the question of road safety and the extension of such a scheme . I do not think I should dwell much on that matter because it is not a controversial one. It is not the intention of the Council for Road Safety to concentrate only on a few roads. Everything depends on the availability of staff and also on funds , and the scheme will be extended to more roads in the Transkei . With regard to the remarks by the hon. member for Mqanduli, the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. K.M. Guzana , he referred to the question of police stations where the stations are given to the charge of African station commanders , and where White policemen of lesser qualifications give instructions to these African station commanders . I wish to assure the hon. member that such White incumbents at such stations are not supposed to give instructions to the station commanders . All they do is to give advice wherever needed.
How many of each?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are just grouped as such as 15. At the time there were no matriculants available to fill these vacancies , but I am happy to say all those vacancies have since been filled by the young personnel who passed matric at the end of 1969. Now , there was another allegation with regard to the carrying of certain incumbents out of adjustment. As I have remarked, there is a shortage of legally qualified persons. This is not only in the Transkei , but also it is to be found in the Republic but the work of the magistrate's court or magistrates ' office must be carried out. It happens , therefore , that a lesser qualified incumbent is placed temorarily in a post which is not of his own grading. Sometimes an incumbent holding a certain position becomes ill and there is nobody to take his position and an incumbent of lesser qualifications is placed in his position. There is provision in the regulations of the Public Service Commission for the payment to such incumbent who is carried out of adjustment for the services which he performs in that position. Now, this is also of advantage to the incumbent himself, because when he qualifies for consideration for promotion, the fact that he has acted in a higher post which is not of his grading is taken into consideration when promotions are being considered .
MR. GUZANA: Even in that context, don't you think it should be a man of senior rank? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I feel so, too; that is quite correct. Now, with regard to prosecutors , it is the policy of the department to have fully qualified personnel as prosecutors - that is, legally qualified - but it will be appreciated that at the present moment the department is struggling with the shortage of legally qualified personnel right through the department. We have had members of the Transkei police as well as our own officials at prosecutors ' courses . These people do not all have legal backgrounds but the training is done in the course of building up. To get to the top one has to get to the first step. It is also true that some of the assistant magistrates are not legally qualified . That is the very reason why the department is on this scheme of sending men to the University of Fort Hare to be legally qualified. The hon . the Leader of the Opposition referred to the nomenclature of these men and even went so far as to say that the appellation of assistant magistrate was a misnomer, referring to the fact that these men are employed in certain grades and are at the same time known as assistant magistrates . Now, it should be quite clear (and I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows about this ) that before these men can act as assistant magistrates they are appointed as such specially and specifically. It is true the shortage of legally qualified personnel has caused the department to appoint as assistant magistrates even those personnel who are not fully legally qualified , and while so appointed as assistant magistrates they are referred to as such. Now, with regard to the allegation by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition in connection with the 15 vacant posts that appeared in the Report of the Public Service Commission , I wish to report that that Report was for the period to the 31st December, 1969. At that stage the 15 posts were vacant because of the following reasons , which are normal reasons in the course of the running of any department : There were dismissals , there were resignations , there were deaths .
MR. GUZANA : Is this an administrative regulation, or where does one find it which provides for this? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is in the regulations of the Public Service Commission. MR . GUZANA : Where can I find it? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think if you approach the Public Service Commission you will find it. Now, with regard to the question of bottlestore licences , I hope the hon . members are aware that in the villages licences are granted in terms of Proclamation No. 177 of 1962 and that , although the Liquor Board is in the Transkei and the Chairman is in the Department of Justice , the final say rests with the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development with regard only to the hotels and bottle -stores in the villages and towns . I heard somebody asking Why? The reason is simply because the towns and villages are not yet under the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. Now, with regard to the liquor licences for hotels and bottle - stores outside the towns and villages , I can only say that the Liquor Board has hardly met since I took over responsibility of the Department of Justice and that, as you know , the Liquor Board conveys its recommendations to the Minister for his approval. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Which Minister? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Minister of Justice in the Transkei . So these licences were granted before I took over charge of the Department of Justice and I cannot say why, because I do not know what discretion was used 159.
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : May I pose a question, please , Mr. Chairman ? The hon. Minister says the towns and villages are not under the direct control of the Transkei Government. I wish to ask whether those towns and villages which have been totally zoned Black are not under the Transkei Government .
ment is very keen to have as many legally qualified people as possible in the Department of Justice in the Transkei . Now, there was another allegation to the effect that there are magistrates and assistant magistrates who have limited jurisdiction in the Transkei . Now, I think that was a great mistake . The magistrates who are fully qualified , as well as the assistant magistrates who are fully qualified , have as much jurisdiction as any district magistrate in the Transkei , except that the African magistrates may not try cases involving White persons .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The reply is No - and do you want the reason ?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: You are admitting that.
by my honourable predecessor . Also , I cannot make any remarks with regard to the Rode Trading Company because I am not involved in its activities .
That is a limitation.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It must be noted that the Transkei is still part of the Republic of South Africa.... (Interjections)
MR . MAJIJA : Yes , I would be pleased. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The reason is because the land which belongs to the municipalities has not yet been transferred by the Provincial Administration to the Transkei Government. Now, on the question of the use of firearms by members of the police , I wish to advise the hon. members that when the police are employed they are trained in the use of firearms . In fact , the erstwhile Minister of Justice , Mr. Mdledle , donated a cup for competition in the art of the use of firearms by members of the police force and that cup is called the Mdledle Cup and it is competed for yearly. Now, there was another question posed to me by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to a certain official who was recommended by the Public Service Commission and not employed.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : MR . L.Z. MAJIJA :
Order , please .
And it will remain so.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Those howlers We across the floor are really disturbing. cannot at this stage branch from the policy of the Republican Government with regard to matters affecting their citizens in the Transkei. I say " at this stage" advisedly because if and when we gain full independence then we can evolve our own policy with regard to such citizens of the Republic who may be in the Transkei. I think that position is clear. There was also an allegation with regard to there being only one departmental inspector in the Transkei . The reason for this is because the offices in the Transkei are now inspected once every two years , and it is therefore considered that one departmental inspector is sufficient.
MR. GUZANA : The question was: Was he employed on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, though I do not know to which official he refers , the official that I know of did not assume duties after he had been employed , and therefore his employment was withdrawn. That is all I can tell you.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : On page 7 of the Public Service Commission's Report it says five inspections were conducted in the Department of Justice . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : period?
MR. GUZANA : Would you mind if I made my question more explicit, Sir ? Mr. Chairman , I refer to Mr. Louis Mtshizana .
MR. GUZANA :
During what
I take it for the year 1969.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , that might be , because the other offices might be inspected during the following year.
referred to THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : him too , fortunately. Now , there was a question as to why we do not send more men to Fort Hare . The only reply I can give is that these officials who are sent to Fort Hare are employees of the Department of Justice in the Transkei and while they are at Fort Hare they are being paid , and they enjoy all the amenities which are enjoyed by the employed personnel in the Department of Justice in the Transkei . While they are at Fort Hare the work at the home offices has got to go on, so it would be difficult to drain the offices at home of all the officers and send them to Fort Hare and leave nobody to occupy the offices at home . That is the sole reason why not more can be sent to Also , that would mean more exFort Hare . penditure because there would have to be more bursaries and more salaries paid to people at Fort Hare . I think that is clear. The depart-
MR. GUZANA : years ?
I thought you said every two
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , that is correct . Now, with regard to another query.... MR . GUZANA : I am sorry , Mr. Chairman, may I put this clearly? Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Justice has indicated that there is one inspection every two On page 7 of the Transkei Public years . Service Commission's Report , 1969 , we see there were five inspections in the Department of Justice for the year 1969. Is the hon. Minister's statement to the effect that there is one inspection every two years relating to the future as from now, or to the past?
160.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : whose inspections those are ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am not bound to reply to your question if you don't want a reply. I cannot have you asking for a reply to a question and while I am replying you throw out another question. I am saying that an official may be employed in January , 1970 , and perhaps go as far as the end of the year, and next year he gets a bursary to Fort Hare before he has gained sufficient experience in clerical work. He gets to Fort Hare and qualifies in law but though he is qualified in law he has not gained that knowledge which he should have as far as office work is concerned - that is, the office of a magistrate . Fortunately, I am explaining this to an hon. member who was himself a clerk and who knows the diversity of the work in the magistrate's office. Now, what I was trying to tell you is that these men are not being trained as magistrates , but I was telling you they are being trained in the other small departments of the magistrate's office in order to equip themselves for the higher responsibility which they will have as assistant magistrates and magistrates . Now, that is why I say these men , although they are now acting as judicial officers , are still being trained in the workings of the general work of the magistrate's office .
May I know
MR. GUZANA : It just says " Number of inspections · ad hoc inspections " . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Carried out by whom ? MR. GUZANA : I will read what it says : "These inspections usually relate to particular departmental problems or pressure points on a relatively small scale not warranting general inspections. Whilst not infrequently leading to nothing more than minor adjustments in organisations and/or establishments , these inspections are nonetheless important, have often to be undertaken contemporaneously one with the other, and indeed account for a major portion of the inspector's time . Details are as follows :...." And we get this table . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I referred to the departmental inspector . Those are inspections by the Public Service Commission , not by the departmental inspector. Is that now clear , hon. member? MR. GUZANA :
I accept it at its face value .
MR. MGUDLWA: I am very glad you have touched on this point. I am going to ask you another question now. Are you aware of the fact that a man who is employed as interpreter/ clerk will only interpret in court? Are you aware of the fact that there is no provision in an office...
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I shall now go to the question posed with regard to office accommodation for African assistant magistrates . These persons are in the particular offices on training. It must be well understood that some of these officials are employed as clerks and get bursaries and go to Fort Hare and then come back legally qualified .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am talking about assistant magistrates now and their training .
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: May Ipose a question, Mr. Chairman ? Are you aware of the fact that people are not, in fact, trained as magistrates ? I have never seen a magistrate being trained. There is no school of magistrates . Is there such a school in the Republic ? Are you aware of the fact that a clerk starts from his clerkship and then he rises and gets promoted and then he becomes an assistant magistrate ? He is never trained as a magistrate . Is this a Department of Justice now or is it a school for magistrates ?
MR. MGUDLWA : Are you aware that a man will interpret in the court all the time? You talk about every other department in the magistrate's office , but he will spend all his time interpreting in court only. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think the hon. member is completely out of order . He is now talking about interpreters when he asked me about assistant magistrates . Now, there was a question touched upon with regard to the magistrate of Flagstaff, Mr. Mbuli , and I was even asked to rectify my policy speech in that it was wrong in so far as there was no Bantu magistrate who had been promoted to the position of senior magistrate . I was even referred to the Estimates as far as this matter is concerned . The position is this , and it is very simple : There are posts only for five senior magistrates in the Transkei and those posts are all filled .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If you were not in a hurry to ask your question before you knew what I was going to say, you would not have asked all you asked just now. The position is that in the past clerks were employed and they went through various stages in their employment. MR. MGUDLWA:
As it is today , in fact.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : During the course of that gaining of experience they studied law, qualified, became assistant magistrates and then became magistrates , but today, because of the shortage of judicial officers an incumbent may be employed in January , 1970 ....
MR. MGUDLWA: holding these posts .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I will appeal to you , Mr. Chairman, I don't think it is appropriate for the hon. member to talk like that while sitting down and asking a lot of
MR. MGUDLWA: Out of adjustment . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
There are pensioners
Order , please . 161 .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This apparently I have got to correct. This is my mistake and that R2,640 is the old scale. The new scale is now R2,886. Hon. members , I think I have now said enough in my reply and that gives us exactly enough time to have the hon. members approve this Vote for the Department of Justice . I accordingly ask this House without dissension, without difference , but with unanimity to pass this Vote for the Department of Justice for the protection of us all . Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
questions. I am trying to explain things to hon. members who may be very keen to know about this. I was saying there are only five posts existing for senior magistrates in the Transkei and that those already have incumbents . That is , there are five White personnel occupying them and they had them at the time Mr. Mbuli was promoted, so at the time Mr. Mbuli was promoted these five posts were already filled SO that he had to remain in his post out of adjustment. That is , though he is a senior magistrate he is in a station which is lower than his rank and he will only get to his position when one of these five is transferred , but with regard to salaries and other things he is getting his rightful salary as a senior magistrate . In that respect I would like to read you a letter dated 25th May , 1969 , which was addressed to Mr. Mbuli . I want to read it so that you can see it is true and there is no mistake in my speech. "Mr. L.H.D. Mbuli , C/o Magistrate , Flagstaff. I have please in informing you that the hon. the Minister of Justice has , on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission, approve your promotion to the position of senior magistrate at a salary of R2,640 per annum on the salary scale R2,640 x 120 -
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second . Amendment by Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa put and lost. Amendment by Mr. G.G. Kutu put and lost. The sum of R695,000 under Vote 2 , Department of Justice , was passed to stand part of . the schedule .
The
Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION
R3,600. "
OBITUARY
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE :
Not R2,886 ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would request that the House should give me leave to make a very important announcement, an announcement which should have been made to the House when it resumed this morning , but for certain procedural omissions I failed to make it.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , the position is, even with the existing magistrates of the Transkei their scale is decided upon by the Public Service Commision of the Transkei , not by us . CHIEF NDAMASE :
But the scale is R2,886 .
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is for employees of the Republican Government, for the White personnel . You don't receive the same allowance as a Member of Parliament in the Republican Parliament.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is with deep sorrow that I have to announce to the House this afternoon the sudden death of an important member of the Transkei Government Service , namely , Mr. J.D. Moshesh, a member of the Public Service Commission. Normally such announcements should not concern members of this Assembly, but I feel Mr. Moshesh was part and parcel of this Legislative Assembly in that on several occasions we have had to deal with reports which were tabled here by his commission. Mr. Moshesh became a member of the Public Service Commission in 1964.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : Why? MR. K.M. GUZANA : Now, don't argue like that because you are arguing against separate development. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am just telling you that what we do in the Transkei we do irrespective of what is done for the Republican officials. MR.
GUZANA :
THE CHIEF MINISTER: if you want to pay the taxes . MR. GUZANA:
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , it looks to me as if this announcement should have been made in full House , but the House is now in committee .
Irrespective , but lower. It can be higher
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I agree , Mr. Chairman. I move that the Chairman of the House should take his seat for the purpose of this important announcement.
It has never been higher.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : the position. Satisfied ?
Now, that is
House Resumed CHIEF NDAMASE : Not quite . I wanted to know wether the column " Scale of Salaries " only refers to seconded officials and not to Bantu officials . On page 9 of the Justice Vote under " Senior Magistrate " . Does this column refer both to seconded officials and to Bantu officials ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the resumption of your seat, Mr. Chairman , has been necessitated by the bringing forward of a very important motion, a motion of condolence resulting from the sudden death of Mr. J.D. Moshesh, a member of the Public 162 .
Service Commission. Mr. Moshesh died in his house in Nangelizwe Location on Wednesday night last week. That day he felt feverish and unwell and interviewed a local doctor . I am made to understand that the said doctor referred him to the hospital . Probably he thought that the attack was not as dangerous as it was , and decided to sleep in his house that night. The following morning he was found by his relatives , dead. I have known Mr. Moshesh for over 40 years now. He was for a long time a teacher at St. John's College and I am sure that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, who taught with him in that institution, will be in a position to tell more about him to this House . As a member of the Public Service Commission I knew Mr. Moshesh as a man with an independent He mind, an honest servant of his people . was just, diligent and a man with a sober mind . There were times when certain matters were placed before the Commission which needed the attention of those who were charged with that duty , and Mr. Moshesh never failed to strike the course which he thought was a just one . I am sure that I am expressing the feelings of this House when I say that the Transkeian administration has lost a great man. I wish on behalf of this House to convey the sympathies of the Transkei people , the Transkeian departments of administration and the members of the Legislative Assembly and the Cabinet to his family. May his soul rest in peace.
many a time would I spend an afternoon with him , entertained by him from his stock of classical records and from the voluminous and knowledgeable comment he made on composers like Beethoven and Weber. He set the example for all of us as teachers in that he never allowed us to vent our tempers in an uncontrolled manner and if he was present on the occasion when you got out of control , he got you by the arm , led you away and said : Let us go and talk On most of these over this matter quietly. occasions you found that his action was the wisest one . He sought order and concord and was against dissension and strife . He never wore his sorrow on his sleeve and carried his burdens quietly to himself. To show how loyal he was to those who were above him, I wish to refer to his position in the Public Service Commission. One would have thought that Mr. Moshesh would have laid claim to the position of Chairman of the Public Service Commission when the then Chairman retired from the Commission , but he was not that type of man. He was willing to continue to serve under the new man with dedication and loyalty and I think his services to the Public Service Commission and to the employees of the Government at large were more dedicated after he had missed the opportunity to be Chairman than before. In his humility , indeed , this We mourn his loss with his man was great. May they be consoled family and children. by the thought that we share their grief and seek to make it lighter for them.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman hon. members , I want to support the motion of condolence moved by the hon. the Chief Minister on the death of Mr. Jeremiah Moshesh. I think this is a great loss to all of us and I think its suddenness is a bit shocking to us all. On Tuesday last week I met him in town and we chatted, and he was looking very well indeed . Nothing at that time indicated that we would be saying words of condolence to his family on his death today. Mr. Moshesh was an old "young" man. Whilst he , at his death , was at the age of 68 years , no- one could have said from his appearance and demeanour that he was of that age . I was associated with him in the teaching profession at St. John's College from 1945 to 1952 and during that period of close association I found him to be a man with a heart of gold. He took me under his wing, he being an old member of the teaching staff, and showed me the ropes with fatherly tenderness , and he did this without offending me at all. He was a loyal and dedicated servant of the Cape Education Department and was faithful to his principal and his colleagues . He never saved himself any pains in preparing lessons for his pupils at St. John's who came under his care and was always careful never to set the wrong example to the students at St. John's . You would think him hesitant and ill-fitted for his job , but he had a wealth of knowledge which showed itself cleraly when he stood before his class and began to teach and to guide . His deportment and inherent dignity carried conviction in what he said. He was keenly interested in teacher affairs and was a member of the Teachers ' Association in the district of Umtata. He was a great lover of classical music ; he had an eye for the antique and the artistic , and
The motion was carried , the members standing as a mark of respect to the late Mr. Moshesh . APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House converts itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to.
House in Committee POLICY
STATEMENT : MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR
Mr. Chairman and honourable members , once again I am pleased to discuss in this Assembly the general policy and administration of the department falling under my care , namely, the Department of the Interior . I say once again, because of the fact that with the exception of last year the interior portfolio has been my responsibility since the inception of the Transkei Government in December, 1963. Here , Mr. Chairman , I feel I must thank my colleague , the Minister of Education , for having so ably administered the affairs of the Department of the Interior during my period in the Department of Justice .
Before proceeding to discuss the more important of the many and varied matters entrusted to my care , I wish to reiterate what has already been said by the hon. the Chief Minister in his budget speech as regards the provision made for drought relief in the Transkei . 163 .
Due to poor crop yields the Transkei will again be very much dependent upon the importation of substantial supplies of maize from the Republic . It is considered essential , at this early stage of the season , to appeal to all concerned , and in particular to the Xhosa Development Corportion with its extensive trading responsibilities in the Transkei , both retail and wholesale , to ensure adequate stockpiling and the systematic replenishment of supplies at all points .
When the estimates of expenditure for the 1970/1971 financial year were complied , crop expectations were so good that the question as to whether only a nominal amount should be provided for drought relief was seriously considered. Prudence prevailed , however , and the fairly substantial sum of R250,000 was placed on the estimates . We all know that the situation has since changed dramatically and that the Transkei is again faced with a serious drought, the alleviation of which will not improve the crop yield at this late stage of the season. Since it is clear at this stage that the R250,000 under sub-head M will be insufficient to meet the present drought situation , I move as a matter of national importance that rule 142 of the rules of this House be suspended and that this amount be increased by R250,000 to R500,000 .
MR. K.M. R250,000 ?
GUZANA:
Coming now to the other facets of my departmental vote I will endeavour to give the House as complete a picture as is possible within the confines of a policy speech such as this . I trust that honourable members will bear with me as I seem to recollect that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition made some reference during the last session of the Assembly as to the briefness of the policy speech delivered by my predecessor .
In addition to the
New heights were reached on the labour front and a total of 174,223 workseekers were placed in employment outside the Transkei during 1969. This is 19,000 more than during the previous year and reflects in the main to the credit of our District Labour Bureaux and the Republican Department of Bantu Administration and Development. I feel it incumbent upon myself to laud the sterling efforts made by the latter department to divert more requisitions for labour to the Transkei to offset to some extent, the hardships experienced by the populace in the drought- stricken districts in our territory.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Yes , in addition to that sum . I want to assure this House and the people of the Transkei that I will not hesitate to call for additional funds from the sources mentioned by the hon. the Chief Minister in his budget speech should circumstances necessitate such action being taken. Whilst I am on the subject of drought relief it will no doubt be of interest to honourable members to learn that a daily average of 10,000 persons were employed on relief works during the last eight months of the previous financial year and that over 300,000 pre - school children and primary school scholars received a daily helping of vitamin-fortified food during the period May to December , 1969 .
The average earnings of unskilled migratory workers showed an upward trend during 1969 and the minimum wage rates , excluding free quarters and/or rations , are now in the region of R1.00 per day whilst in the building trade and the construction industries they are as high as R2.88 per day . Wages in the Gold Mines were increased during the latter half of 1969 and unskilled experienced workers now earn an average of R2.00 per shift.
Though the feeding scheme placed an appreciable burden on my department , on magistrates, on the school staffs of the Department of Education and on the Transportation Section of the Department of Roads and Works , I am happy to state that according to reports received from the thirteen districts in which the scheme was introduced , the fortified food assisted materially in combatting malnutrition during the lean winter and spring months of 1969.
Every effort is being made to cultivate good relations with employers in the Republic and to secure the most favourable wages and working conditions for Transkeian workers . The marked decrease in the number of complaints received bears eloquent testimony to the success in this respect.
My department was again called upon on various occasions during the past year to intercede when the reserve stock of maize in a number of areas dropped to such a low level that the distributors could not satisfy the demands of the traders. More often than not the South African Railways Administration was solely blamed for the deterioration of the situation , whereas enquiries showed clearly that in many instances the blame rested either with the distributors for allowing stocks to dwindle alarmingly before ordering additional supplies or with the various Maize Co - operatives for delays in the loading of trucks .
Transkeian workers have earned for themselves a high regard in the Republic and I feel that it will not be amiss , at this juncture , to warn workseekers not to embarrass the Transkeian Government by proceeding to work centres outside the Transkei without first having been registered and contracted for employment. Failure on their part to comply with the existing influx control regulations may very well militate against the esteem in which they are held in the Republic and could jeopardise the cordial relations which exist between the Labour Division of my department and the Director of Bantu Labour.
Situations such as this , Mr. Chairman, can very easily get out of hand with disastrous consequences . 164.
being issued indiscriminately. I have given the assurance time and again that all applications for trading licences are carefully considered and that due cognisance is taken of objections received from any source whatsoever . The
Before passing on to another topic of discussion I want to inform the House that notwithstanding the sterling efforts of the district labour bureaux , I am nevertheless aware that there is still cause for complaint, particularly as regards bribery and corruption. For this reason a thorough investigation is at present being carried out with a view to the possible introduction of a procedure whereby registered workseekers will be offered employment in accordance with their dates of registration.
incidence of bankruptcy amongst traders of long standing is very rare indeed and whilst it may be possible , although I have no knowledge of this, that the profits of some of these concerns may have been pruned somewhat, I am confident that any trader with the necessary business acumen will be able to hold his own against a reasonable number of licenced competitors .
Honourable members will have noticed that in respect of social benefits an amount of R4,237,100 has been budgeted for under sub-head F of my departmental vote. This represents an increase of R1,047,100 over the previous year and the increased benefits will be payable with retrospective effect from 1st April, 1970 .
From complaints received of late , it is evident, however , that quite a number ofpersons are trading illegally and this , of course , gives rise to the evils of over -trading; a situation which cannot be allowed to continue if economic progress is to be maintained . But, and I want to stress the fact, the remedy lies with the licenced traders and the community as a whole whose responsibility it is to bring the culprits to book by reporting malpractices to the Police .
It is of interest to note that during October , 1969 , social benefits were increased by 9.2% with retrospective effect from 1st April, 1969 , and the latest windfall announced by the Honourable the Chief Minister in his budget speech of a few days ago represents a further increase of 26.5%. This , Mr. Chairman, is indeed indicative of the Government's sincere endeavour to provide adequately, within the confines of fiscal limitations , for the aged, the blind and the infirm .
Another salient feature of my departmental vote is the appreciable additional amount earmarked for the resettlement in the Transkei of Transkeian citizens at present resident in the Republic particularly those in the urban areas .
The Children's Home at Cala which was established during 1967 , was officially opened during February, 1970. Admissions tothe Home, which can accommodate 120 children in need of care, were disappointingly slow during the first eighteen months of its existence , but I am pleased to state that there are 83 children in the Home at present and I have no doubt, whatsoever, that the full complement will be reached within the next year or two . I can assure honourable members that a visit to the institution will engender pride in achievement and stimulate a lasting interest in child welfare work .
I know that quite a lot has already been said on the subject of resettlement and I have no doubt that the protagonists of multi-racialism will have more to say on the matter , but the fact remains that resettlement or repartiation, call it what you will , is an integral constituent of the policy of separate development. It goes hand in hand with the concept of the granting of self-realisation to the peoples in the different homelands . With this realisation , Mr. Chairman, the Transkeian Government is fully aware of its responsibilities towards those of its citizens who will have to readjust themselves to a different environment . Apart from schemes which are afoot for the provision of the necessary housing and services , it will be the task of my department with the assistance of magistrates , to ensure that resettlement is effected with the least possible disruption and financial hardship to all concerned.
As far as the aged are concerned I wish to inform the House that negotiations between my department and the trustees of the Douglas Murray Trust, Cape Town, have paved the way for the erection of an Old Age Home in Umtata . As the matter has not been finalised I cannot furnish any further particulars at this stage except to state that the Transkei Council of Churches has graciously accepted the responsibility of managing the proposed Old Age Home .
Honourable Members will also have noticed that a new sub-head , Subhead O, has been included in my Vote for purposes of planning and developing new townships. This was done to co- ordinate within the framework of one department all the professional and technical functions peculiar to the establishment of new townships , such as townplanning, surveying , the provision of water reticulation schemes and roads , the registration and issue of title deeds , etc. The amount of R50,000 under this sub-head is earmarked for the development of the new township of Maluti in the Ramahlokoana Administrative Area in the district of Matatiele .
Before passing to another matter, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to say that the full complement of departmental Welfare Officers stationed in Regional Authority areas has nearly been enrolled and it is hoped that the one remaining vacant post will be filled in the near future . A post of Senior Welfare Officer has been created and the incumbent thereof will co -ordinate welfare work in the Transkei and assist management in the planning and control of welfare services .
In the commercial field steady progress has been maintained despite the unwarranted criticism levelled at me that trading licences are
Maluti will shortly be proclaimed a town and present indications are that it will rapidly 165 .
develop into the administrative , economic and cultural hub of the Transkei in the Matatiele district.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer briefly to the recent by-elections and to the increasing lack of concern on the part of the populance to register births , marriages and deaths .
From observation made on polling day it was evident, however, that many Transkeian citizens were unable to vote because they were either not registered as voters or neglected to reregister on a district basis during 1968. I do feel that it is incumbent upon all of us , as representatives of the people , to leave no stone unturned to ensure that all eligible persons are registered voters in the Transkei.
Once again the election machinery functioned smoothly and without a hitch during the byeelections which were held in the districts of Umtata and Flagstaff. That this should be so is to be expected but I nevertheless pray the indulgence of the House to thank all concerned , particularly the officials of my own department, the magistrates concerned and the various Republican authorities for their valued services rendered.
As far as the registration of births , marriages and deaths is concerned, it is unfortunately true that notwithstanding the efforts which have been made by my department, with the assistance of magistrates throughout the Transkei , to stress the legal obligations and the real need for such registration, the following figures clearly indicate that, particularly as regards births , mass education is necessary, by all the means at our disposal , to remedy the situation:-
Births Registered Deaths Registered Marriages Registered
1965. 27726 13070 4256
1966. 26400 11969 3393
1967. 24193 11247 3381
1968. 24235 13731 3747
1969. 20259 13965 3436
Interior to increase this Vote by R250,000 , in addition to the extra amount asked for. Originally the amount proposed in the estimates was R250,000 and now he is proposing to increase that amount by another R250,000 . I plead with the hon . Minister to increase this amount by another R250,000 . Let us now turn to the population figures . At our homes there is a complaint , in particular with the assistant registrar . These assistant registrars generally state they do not get a sufficient supply of forms from the magistrates and we are usually told the supply of forms is finished. I therefore come to the conclusion that care is not being exercised as far as these registrations are concerned. If you turn to page 15 of the policy speech you will note that 27,726 births were registered during 1965. The following years have shown a decrease , so much so that in 1969 only 20,259 births were registered . In principle , however , it is the number of deaths which should decrease . I do not think the number of births registered should show a decrease . Rather, there should be an increase , and this proves that the complaint made about the registrars in connection with the registration of births is correct. Another complaint by the members ofthe Legislative Assembly is that the Hansard arrives very late . After the last session ofthe Assembly it was a very long time before copies were available , whereas in the past the matter was attended to promptly. This delay results in members of this House not being in a position to report to the people. Another matter I wish to touch on is that application forms for the aged and indigent are generally not available . We request that the magistrates should be instructed to issue these application forms so that they can be obtained by those people who are indigent. Turning to the welfare section , you have said that eight posts have been filled , and there is only one vacant post. Whilst this post is still vacant, is it not possible for the present officers to take turns in order to afford all the regional authorities an opportunity to attend to welfare
If we accept that the population is increasing year by year, and this is the trend throughout the world, then we must accept that the aforesaid figures are completely valueless . Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , for the sake of brevity I had perforce to exclude many aspects worthy of mention in this speech , but these will be dealt with in the bi-ennial report of my department which will be tabled during the next session or by myself during the discussion of my Vote. In thanking you for your attentive hearing I now move that Vote No. 4 be approved by this Committee as printed in the Schedule but that Subhead M be increased by R250,000 to R500,000. First of all , Mr. Chairman, I move that rule 142 be waived in order to allow me to move this amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have heard the short policy speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of the Interior and he embellished his statement by adding the additional amount he requires to meet the drought conditions , but I think what he has asked for is too little . Last year the estimates in connection with this drought relief amounted to R850,000 . The reason why I say the increase asked for is too small is because when there is starvation the people usually eat green mealies and this means that even if we had had a good season this year we would still face starvation. Whilst people nursed high hopes of a good year for crops , it turned out to be a bad year as far as the drought is concerned , and that is why I 'say there will be no difference in conditions between the previous year and this year . I will again ask the hon . the Minister of the
166 .
labourer returns home and wishes to return to work he is not given permission to do so until such time as he pays the amount of R1 , and yet it has been stated that the R1 is payable by the employer . Is it not true , therefore , that although it is said that we do not ask those poor people to pay taxes , a person who seeks employment is , in fact, a poor person? It must be noted that this person seeking employment has no money but it is a requirement that he should first pay out money, Consider this poor worker when he leaves home to try to earn some money, yet the first thing he is required to do is to pay out money. Are these people receiving fair treatment? There is a common complaint with workers employed at the dams . I do not know where these dams are situated , but one man was run over by a lorry and he never received any compensation. Without any doubt there are other people who were never compensated for injury . I say your department should investigate those complaints . In the Transkei Constitution Act it is laid down that your department may make laws and regulations except that it may not interfere with the Workmen's Compensation Act. It would appear that your department has neglected for a long time to attend to this question . It could make regulations which would protect the interests of the people. There are garages and small factories in the Transkei , hotels , dry- cleaners , a tea factory, and the worker there is just the same as those employed in factories in the Republic . The worker in the Republic has the Bantu Labour Act to protect him. Though we are still under the Republicant Government in the Transkei , the rights enjoyed by the labourer in the Republic are not enjoyed by the labourer in the Transkei . At one time I was speaking to a labourer in the Ciskei at a garage , and he told me that at times an inspector comes and questions them as to what treatment they receive and what wages they are paid, in that way attending to the needs of the labourers . Should a labourer have this inspector asking me how much he receives and the inspector is satisfied he is not paid according to the wage Determination Board in the Ciskei , the inspector approaches the employer and questions him. When I asked about that in the Transkei , the Transkei labourers told me that nothing of this sort is done in the Transkei . Sir, we beseech you to sympathize with the labourer of the Transkei and introduce protective provisions for your labourers in the Transkei . One person asked me , in connection with a certain motion, what these inspectors were . I have now made all that clear . Sir , we request your department to do all we have asked.
matters? I believe that the Department of the Interior forms a link between the Transkei Government and the Republican Government in matters connected with health. The hon . Minister should therefore be in a position to make representations to the Republican Government in so far as any health matters are concerned . If you would listen to what I am saying , Mr. Minister , I wish to refer this matter to you. In one of the hospitals , on account of the shortage of beds in the maternity wards , some of the patients have to sleep on the floor. These conditions obtain in the Umtata hospital and in some of the other hospitals , and some patients even have to be turned away because of the lack of beds. In other hospitals patients are told they can be admitted on condition that they are willing to be transferred to some other hospital , whereas a particular patient might have faith only in that one hospital. This gives rise to unhappiness as far as the patient is concerned because sometimes that patient is a resident of Umtata and might have to be transferred to Matatiele . Let me now turn to the most important question the question of labourers . This is a difficult matter because all over the world people depend upon the labourers - the men who wield the spade. We thank you for giving us information about the people employed by you, but it is a fact that although there are those who are employed , there is still a great number of others who have not found employment in spite of being registered as work-seekers . We accept your statistics but we are not altogether happy as you have not revealed to us those people who are in dire need but who have not yet obtained employment. You mentioned in your policy statement that the average unskilled worker is paid R2 on the mines. In the 1970 diary R2 was given as the maximum amount paid, and the minimum was 34c . I do not know if you have ever gone underground in the mines. If you were ever underground I think you would realise that this money is insufficient for people who work below the surface and who are liable to miners ' phthisis . It would be a very good thing if you could made representations that they should get a minimum of 60c . If these people were non-existent the gold which we say is a means of livelihood to the whole world would not be obtained. Another complaint from the African mineworkers is that their children do not get the same treatment as those of the White mineworkers . The White children are assisted with bursaries from the Chamber of Mines if their fathers become victims of miners ' phthisis and they do not see any reason why their children should not receive the same treatment if their fathers are stricken . I see no reason why the Transkei Government should be afraid to make representations on behalf of the workers , because the lowest-paid labourer under the Transkei Government receives 60c. Referring now to labourers from the Transkei in general , the general labourer complains that when he is in the labour centre and his contract comes to an end, even if he should obtain a further appointment with his employer he is debarred from continuing work. He must first return to his home and there renew his contract, although his employer is in agreement as far as his continuing work is concerned . When this -
CHIEF M.E. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of the Interior . All these years the Government has given assistance during times of famine . It was not known how people would manage to live in view of the drought, but the Transkei Government has seen to it that people get employment. The work on dams has assisted people to a great extent but I must also appeal to the hon. Minister to ask the magistrates to see that the people get social benefits when they have applied for 167 .
them . This is a hardship on the people but it is not a criticism , however , because the Government is doing well . I support the Government which has done a great deal for us . Again I have this request - that moneys paid as compensation should be paid in bulk because there will be no loss even if a beneficiary is given this amount in a lump sum. I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
in Butterworth , another in Mount Frere and yet another in Bizana , but I think a matter of urgency is creating this central depot in Umtata so that there is no shortage even if there is a drought. I am happy to note that the Department of Bantu Administration and Development is allotting more job opportunities to the Transkei than elsewhere . It is as it should be because there are so many people living in the Transkei who cannot find jobs in the Transkei , and charity begins at home . I therefore think the Republican Government should feel obliged to find work for the non-White in South Africa before it looks beyond its borders to recruit its employees . I am disturbed by the fact that a non- South African African is given a permit for two years to remain within the Republic in order to work or find employment . After the expiration of the two years he goes home to come back again for another spell of two years in the Republic, and during that period of two years he is able to change his employer and his employment and he will not be sent home because he has lost his job. Now, you will agree that the restrictions imposed on the South African African are greater and more stringent, and uneconomically sound . The Transkeian citizen serves his contract, comes back home to be recruited to serve another term, to come back at the expiration of that contract ; nor is he allowed to take up other employment when his contract has expired in the Republic. Now, we would like this Government to see to it that advantageous conditions are extended to the African in the Transkei when he goes into the Republic to work. Now here we get a type of worker who is described as the unskilled experienced worker . He is an unskilled worker , and yet he is experienced . I take it that this type of worker is concerned mainly with the use of the pickaxe and shovel . Well , you are not going to get an improved wage scale for these men if they have to come home every time their contract expires because the man who has served his contract of nine months , comes home and goes back again will be taken on as a new employee . Obviously it may well happen that six months expire between his return home and the time when he goes back or is able to win another contract, and even if he goes back to his original employer the latter is entitled to take him on as a new recruit. This man cannot bargain for a higher wage because he has had to accept the wage laid down in the contract which he signs in Umtata or any one of the towns of the Transkei . I wonder if it ever happens that your department refuses to have people signed up on contract if it considers the wage offer too low? I feel that the Department of the Interior has a strong bargaining ticket over this matter as it supplies labour to the Republic , and if the Department of Bantu Administration and Development were to co - operate on this principle of first providing jobs for the South African African before importing Africans from other countries , then the employer will find himself compelled to offer an attractive wage which will be to the benefit of the African who comes , for instance , from the Transkei. We
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been warned by the hon. the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni to be brief and to the point. How can I be that brief and that short when I complained last year over the brevity of the speech from the then hon. Minister of the Interior? I am glad that we have the original Minister of the Interior back in the saddle because we can now remind him of certain undertakings and certain criticisms which we levelled at his department before he moved into the Department of Justice . Sir, no-one will gainsay the fact that the feeding of pre- school children and those children at school was a very good scheme undertaken by that department, but there is this point about the scheme , Sir , that those who were not afforded an opportunity to participate are still crying aloud and asking : Why are we the forgotten children? A scheme like this should be applied extensively , rather than restrictively, and, if need be , the feeding can be staggered rather than daily so that all the children get some of this nutritive food which is required for their body-building and for their intellect. You will be surprised how many children do not receive nutrition in spite of the fact that they come from apparently good homes. They eat samp, they eat rice , they eat potatoes , they eat white bread which is not nutritive at all , so that whilst they do not hunger as far as the stomach capacity is concerned , they hunger because they do not get nutritive food . The tendency for the parents in the districts where school -feeding was not introduced is for them to ask why they have been left out of the picture and here , Sir, your department may undertake something which is in great need in the Transkei . Every child is receiving with open arms the food supplied at the school and every parent would be keen to get food for the family, but the choice has been taken away from the parent as to the type of food which she will prepare for the children and here the Government has an opportunity to create an appetite in the adult for nutritive food, so that instead of mealies and mealie-meal the Government could assist by giving Kaffircorn and Maltabella and it would be a great day for our children if we would only change over from mealies to Kaffir- corn . The scarcity of mealies now gives this Government an opportunity to put into practice what it preaches to the people . Here , Sir, again we have another scheme which I think should be embarked upon in order to offset the scarcity of foodstuffs in the Transkei . Could not this Government negotiate with the Mealie Industry Control Board the erection of a Kaffir - corn elevator ( I won't say a grain elevator ) in Umtata so that this essential commodity is kept in bulk in the Transkei , and if there should be a shortage anywhere shopkeepers can draw from the central pool in Umtata ? Later on we may have a pool
have time and again requested the Transkei Government, and we again request your department, Sir , to make representations on this 168.
question of influx control. Why cannot your department, for instance , make a request for selected persons to be given a permit to go and seek employment for , let us say, a period of three weeks , and if they do not find a job to You have a large return to the Transkei ? number of young folk who have passed the Junior Certificate , who cannot find clerical employment here but who might well find clerical employment in the departmental stores in the This is the decent type of young Republic. man who should be able to be employed gainfully and who might well be able to find a job in the Republic under that system . We are glad that you comment very strongly against bribery and corruption, but the position will continue to lend itself to bribery and corruption so long as every able- bodied man who seeks to go to the Republic to seek work has to go through these labour bureau clerks . You see, the labour bureau clerk is the man between starvation and employment. He feels he is an important man in the economic life of this labourer who wants work and he does not even need to ask for a bribe to have if offered , because this man knows that every wagon requires grease in its wheels to run. (Laughter) But of course these clerks have this grease all over the face , and then you find them out as having been bribed . I would be glad if a system of transfer of these clerks be introduced so that they do not stay in any one office for longer than two or three months , and if you haven't an inspector of labour at least have an official who will make spot visits and One will discourage the check these books . keeping of registration books in the office under the counter , in the drawers for two or three months while this poor man is wandering about This makes our hearts bleed hoping for work. bleeding a man who wants people find we when to go to work, and this man has to sell his last sheep or goat in order to be signed up for a contract. For this poor labourer or worker to report this matter requires the utmost courage because the clerk becomes vindictive and says : I have marked you , and never again ! These people are exploited by their own ilk, at a very sad state , with the wife and children crying for food at home . The man is delayed for a week after he has given the sop to Cerberus and then he slinks away with his tail between his legs to report to his wife that he has not been recruited ❤ a soul -killing experience for this man. No wonder some of them resort to theft. I shall crave your indulgence , Mr. Chairman , to continue in the morning .
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 14. Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Education :"How many classrooms were erected by parents and committees in 1968 without departmental assistance ?" REPLY : The hon. member's attention is drawn to the Annual Report for 1968 of the Department of Education, which was tabled in this House onthe 23rd April , 1970. Page 1 , item 7 , of the Report reads : " In 1968 parents and committees erected 370 classrooms without departmental assistance .... " I would add , Mr. Chairman , that in one of the questions put by the hon. member for Willowvale , this was also sandwiched in and the answer given did reveal that there were 370 classrooms built without assistance . MR. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I believe I will have to recast the question because I am fairly certain the question read "with departmental assistance ". The mistake might perhaps be on the part of the printers , but the intention was with departmental assistance . APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House converts itself into committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to . House in Committee The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was resumed. MR . J.M. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of the Interior , showing several achievements by this department, even though there is nothing contentious in it because even the hon. members of the Opposition who have spoken on the Vote have had no criticisms to offer. However , everyone is prompted to send in requests to this particular department, especially in regard to Transkeian work- seekers who wish to work in the Republic . I do not think it is necessary
The debate was adjourned .
for me to add to similar requests from this House asking for the abolition of the contract system . My request is that although there appears to be an increase in the number of workseekers finding employment in the Republic , further representations should be made by this department to the Republic because it is a general complaint that work- seekers do not benefit from these labour requisitions and when we go to the country the people complain to us . Their hardship does not end in their seeking for employment, but it goes on even when they are in the Republic because when they get to the Republic the South African Police demand the payment of tax and others are arrested merely because
House Resumed
The
COMMITTEE OF
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 12th May , 1970 . TUESDAY, 12th MAY , 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. 169.
should be set aside to cover funeral expenses for these people , because it very often happens that these people have no-one to see to their funeral expenses . There is another hardship
they have forgotten their reference books at home . There are even members of the South African Police who are accompanied by police dogs which chase people and tear them to pieces . We therefore appeal to the hon. Minister and his officials in the department to see that these things are noted . However , we cannot lay the blame at the door of the Transkei Government. We also appeal to the hon. Minister to see that the number of people seeking work in the Republic is reduced, because there is no reason why there should not be employment opportunities in the Transkei .
which is experienced by applicants for these oldage grants in the rural areas , where they are made to queue up and take off their headgear. It has happened that after the magistrate has passed certain applicants , those applicants were found to be not really deserving cases but were passed simply because of their grey hairs . I suggest that the magistrates be instructed so that a particular man can be appointed to determine the real age of an applicant, and not to judge him merely by the colour of the hair. You will note that not far from me here there is a young person who has white hair, but he is still young. (Laughter) We are also thankful for the provision for people who are repatriated from the Republic .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
MR. DINIZULU: I would suggest that there should be a jam factory established in the Idutywa district because that district is well suited to the growing of watermelons. There should also be a wool industry in that district because it is well suited to sheep breeding . I am making these suggestions as a matter of urgency as far as Idutywa district is concerned. I do not know what the position in other districts is . I am also thankful to hear from the hon. Minister that there is an additional amount required for labourers on dam construction and other relief work, which is evidenced by his suggestion that there should be an additional amount of R250,000 . In reply to the request from the hon. member, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , for an additional R250,000 I can see no reason for it, except that that amount could be treated as a surplus and put to some other use . It has been a very good thing and a credit to your department to see that a great number of children were fed during the last season. As far as we are concerned in our area we would like to see the scheme continued because it has resulted in an increased number of children going to school . We appeal to you that this feeding scheme may be continued , because if it is continued then it may result in these preschool children going to school. We are grateful too for your efforts in seeing that imported maize is available in the Transkei at all times. In certain instances it was difficult to transport the maize but your department overcame this difficulty . We are also thankful for the increased amount from the Republic for the benefit We of the Transkei , which you mentioned.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I continue where I left offyesterday, and make a comment on the Childrens ' Home at Cala. You seem to express disappointment over the fact that this home has not had all its accommodation taken up . I was under the impression that children sent to this home were those who were declared by the children's court to be in need of care . I am the last person to say there are very few children in the Transkei who are not in need of care , but I think your disappointment may be alleviated by the fact that the African by nature is a generous person who will accommodate in his family even distant relatives , and that may be the reason why that home has not received the number you expected . There are many children who are developing along their own lines in the Transkei , but they never lack a home . One would ask the members of this House who the fathers are . ( Laughter) You have stated , Sir , that there is a post for a senior welfare officer in your department . I do hope that the person appointed to that post has been drawn from your welfare officers who have been working in your department and have the local experience . I pass on to this question of trading in the Transkei . You have indicated that you exercise your discretion , regard being had to the economic possibilities of an area when an application for a trading licence is submitted. You know, Sir, that there was no need for you to exercise a discretion in this matter so long as the two- mile radius was a legal provision in the Transkei . The danger arising from giving a Minister discretion in a matter of this nature is that his discretion may be used for purposes other than protecting the already existing traders , so that your discretion , exercised probably objectively, may be interpreted as having been exercised from motives other than those which protect the traders in a given area. There is , you will agree , very little political maturity in the Transkei and if your discretion is exercised in favour of an application other than from one of your own political views , the tendency will be to say that the discretion was exercised on other grounds than political grounds . I would therefore suggest that the hon. the Minister of the Interior should consider legislation which will solve this
always appeal to your department to see that good relations are maintained between your department and the Republican Government so that these increased amounts are continued . We are also thankful to hear that your department is taking steps to do away with bribery and corruption in the magistrates ' offices. I know personally, and I was backed up by an hon. member of the Opposition, that quite a lot was done to combat this malpractice in Idutywa. As regards the Cala Childrens ' Home for children who are in need of care , we feel that institution is a necessity although we regret to hear that the complement is not full . We do feel that where necessary old- age homes should be established because there are certain people who have no - one to look after them , but who are · a burden. As a matter of fact , if provision had not already been made for the establishment of these homes I would suggest that an amount
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GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : We agree there .
problem and make it possible for the applicant to disqualify himself if he does not comply with a provision limiting the distance between traders . You have mentioned in your speech
MR. GUZANA : Now, the hon. Ministers on either side of you have said they agree. I would like to receive this from the middle Minister. (Laughter) This is an important factor which leaves in our minds a tinge of uneasiness if we do not have a witness to watch the marking of the voting papers . Why, I had an educated African come out and say : "I don't know why my ballot paper was marked for me. The officer just asked me who I wanted to vote for, marked it and folded it , and I had no participation in the whole action. " (Laughter ) Probably there is over - enthusiasm on the part of the polling officers , but this is a matter we would like to be looked into so that polling officers give the prospective voter the right to mark his paper if he is able to do so . May we make this request - that the statute books of the Transkei should be immediately available up to the preceding year . I think the only statutes available in book form are up to 1967. The hon. the ex-Minister of the Interior knows I did make a request for these statute books last year, and they were not available . One last point , Mr. Chairman, before I overstrain your indulgence : You will see hon. members in this House are (Laughter ) There is hardly getting ancient. anyone amongst them who is not carrying bifocals on his nose. Most of them do not have
that repatriation or resettlement or whatever you call it is part and parcel of the policy of separate development. Have you, however , realised that a man repatriated from the urban areas may have his social position and his economic standing undermined by the fact that he is compelled to come to a homeland? We are concerned over this obsession over repatriation because there are Limehills , there are Mngqeshas outside the Transkei , and these places have become places of sorrow, misery, hunger and frustration. I hope this TNIP tail will lie on the ground and not constantly raise dust. (Laughter) You may have to receive a number of people who were labourers and workers in the urban areas , sent over here without alternative employment in the Transkei. The amount you have put aside to assist them may justify rations being given to people who otherwise were able to earn their own livelihood in the urban areas , and this question of rations is a soul-destroying and a humiliating experience for anybody who is able - bodied and able to earn a living by the sweat of his brow, and was doing so in the urban areas . The misery that has attended persons repatriated is no compliment to the policy of separate development. In fact , it offends our moral obligation to our people who should be made to earn a living for themselves where there is a job available . It has been
electricity at their homes and the small type in Hansard is discouraging to the intending reader of Hansard . Is it not possible to set a bigger print so that our Hansard may be easily readable ? You need only look to your right to see these bi-focals almost falling on to the ground . ( Laughter) I note I am not popular with the elderly folk here , but I think this is something for which they will be thankful , if you will give us bigger print.
suggested that it is the riff- raff, the ne'er- dowells who are being repatriated . You will not condone any act which makes the Transkei a dumping ground , but apart from this class of persons you have the self- respecting individual who is forced to return home - "home" in inverted commas , for he does not know the Transkei to be his home . I would like the hon. the Minister of the Interior to spell out his programme relating to the repatriated citizen ofthe Transkei and tell us what he is going to do for these people when they get to the Transkei . Probably we may see some justification for his hospitality which he extends to people rejected and thrown out by the Republic. Before you travelled from the Department of the Interior to the Department of Justice , Sir , I took up with you the question of marriage officers who are Then there was no ministers of churches. reciprocity of recognition of marriage officers. appointed by the Transkei Government and those appointed by the Republican Government - that is, the Department of the Interior. The minister of religion who was a marriage officer appointed by the Republic found he could not solemnize If I am marriages outside the Transkei . correctly advised , these men write the same examinations and go through the same oral examination conducted by a magistrate . Is the position that there is reciprocity of recognition and , if not, what has the department done about the matter? Sir , you have made a slight comment on the elections and I agree with you, and we want, with you, to thank all those who were involved officially in the conduct of the last bye-elections , but we still have this proviso that the parties should have their own witnesses when the illiterate voter casts his vote .
MR. G.T. VIKA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , supporting this Vote I wish to strike on a slightly different note . There is a branch of your department, Sir, which is suffering . Very little mention has been made of it - in fact , I have heard nothing mentioned about it in this House. I am referring to that body which cares for the soul of each and every one of us in this House and that is the Church. A few years back there was a sigh of relief from teachers when the Government took over control of schools from the Churches . I think the main reason was the strong discipline under which they were under the rule of the ministers of religion. Lately the department has ruled that if a school wants financial assistance from the Government to put up buildings , that school must have a site apart from the church site . Also , that the sites for churches should be reduced to a quarter of a morgen. Now, the tendency for nowadays is that instead of arriving at an amicable agreement with the Church to get a site , they want to chase away the Church to use the existing buildings . My request is that the Church should at least get the protection of the Government , the chiefs and magistrates . Mr. Chairman, hon . members , it is a human fault to eliminate one's enemy or one who constantly shakes your conscience . I think the main reason for these people to agitate against the Churches is because
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MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , yesterday the hon. Minister made passing reference to the recent bye -election and he expressed himself as being satisfied with the manner in which they were conducted. We on this side of the House are disconcerted by the extraordinary circumstance that it takes such a long time before a vacancy occurring in this Chamber is filled. The later Albert Raziya died , if I remember well , in June of last year. A bye -election involving his constituency only took place last month - a full ten months after the event. I do not know when the seat for Flagstaff fell vacant , nor why it fell vacant, but there again an inordinate length of time intervened . The matter of representation of the people should be treated with seriousness . When the late Dr. Verwoerd died, within three months a bye -election took place in his constituency. Why this disparity in the Transkei? The electoral officer for Ngqeleni took three days to make a final count for the district of Ngqeleni in the last general election, and that involved a count of about 30,000 voters . The rest of the Transkei and the Republic took something like eight or nine days to count 8,000 votes for Ngqeleni . During the last general election for the Republic , within 24 hours they were ready to announce results. In the Transkei they need something like 240 hours to accomplish the same duty - why? I now pass on to the matter of social beneficiaries and the plight in which they sometimes find themselves . The poor man appears before the pay - officer on payday , only to learn that his voucher has not been received . He is told to call again after two months when the next pay-out ensues . Again he is told the same story and this may go on for over a year. Finally, he is told to re-apply and back he goes to the headman , to the tribal authority and finally to the magistrate . Why not pay the man retrospectively? It is through no fault of his that the voucher was misplaced . It is perhaps owing to the carelessness of a clerk. Why won't the department make certain that the voucher gets to its destination and why not inquire why a particular voucher has not reached its destination? We
they do not like the Churches , and yet you must all agree that the background of what we are in the Transkei was brought in by the Churches . All we are asking for , Mr. Minister , is that at least the Church must have a place in your mind. Coming to the allegations which have been made against the department by some of the hon. members (particularly the last one against repatriation) I think what the hon. Minister has done here is to make provision for people who are being sent back to the Transkei . The department has not invited these people to come back to the Transkei . It is a policy of the Republican Government to chase these people away from the Republic. Whether it be separate development , multi -racialism or anything else , the fact is it is not the making of the Transkei Government that these people are coming back to the Transkei. Now , if the Transkei people are chased away from the Republic and come back to the Transkei and find that no provision has been made for them , although we knew they would come because this is general policy throughout the Republic , our Government would not be aiding its own purpose which is primarily to cater for the people of the Transkei . Even this cry against influx control which has been mentioned over and over again, it is not fair to throw this back to the Transkei Government. As early as 1945 I remember people saying they were roaming about the streets in Cape Town for six to twelve months without getting a job. Then the Republican Government decided to institute this regulation, whereas we are not supporting influx control as the Transkei Government.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : You are. MR .
VIKA :
MR. GUZANA : velopment.
How are we supporting it? By accepting separate de-
MR. VIKA : Though we do not accept influx control here in the Transkei our own people , when they go outside , have to go through the regulations of influx control which do not only govern or affect Transkeians . They affect every African. I do not say regulations should not be introduced by the Transkei Government to alleviate some of these conditions , but this should not be a cause for complaint by anyone against the Transkei Government . Again, it has been suggested that the Transkei Government should refuse to supply labour or demand an increase of wages before supplying labour to the Republic. I do not think at the moment the Transkei Government would ever attempt to do that. Beggars cannot be choosers . (Interjections ) We are very thankful for the provision which has been made for drought relief, more especially as the figure given has already been increased , but I do not think we should doubt the integrity of the hon. the Minister of the Interior and suggest that another R250,000 should be added when he has already assured the House that he will not hesitate to call for additional funds should this be found necessary. This means it may be necessary for this amount to be doubled . We know the difficulties of work- seekers who apply for work outside the Transkei and we are aware that not all those registered were able to be placed in employment .
regard this as exploitation of the poor man. Sometimes the tribal authority officer is far removed from where he is and he has to expend money getting there by bus. He has to expend money to get before the magistrate. Some of the magistrates have taken the missive of the hon. Minister too seriously in his bid to collect more revenue for the Transkei . An aspirant applicant appears before the magistrate to ask for a grant and the magistrate says he must pay his arrear taxes first. The man is old and disabled; he has not been able to pay his taxes because of ill -health sometimes. Who is going to recruit the poor man to go to the dams in order to pay his arrear taxes ? I wish the hon. the Minister of the Interior would listen. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I am listening. MR. MADIKIZELA : You are talking to the Minister of Justice . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has touched on the matter of repatriates and we are most unhappy about the posi-
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think we should be agreed withthis scheme which I refer to your department. Again, in regard to the female social beneficiaries I think the people who have to deal with these people must be people who will deal properly with them. It is a pitiful and sorrowful thing to see a young person dealing with an elderly person, ordering them this way and that and sometimes demanding bribes . Elderly people are known to your department who could deal with these applicants . Let not young people who are undergoing training be allowed to deal with elderly people . Mr. Chairman, I am by nature not a man of repetition, but quite a lot has been stated in praise of your department - so much so that I think the mover of the amendment who wants a reduction of your salary should withdraw. As there has been no move for the withdrawal of the amendment I now request him to withdraw. Everything that has been placed before us is quite proper and I think all that remains is for us to agree .
tion on this side of the House . This particular repatriate has been practically all his life in the Republic; he has given useful service to the Republic, and by a natural process that man should have been acitizen of that land. If the Republican Government has not got machinery to take that man into its set-up, then the Transkei is not going to be regarded as its garbage corner. The Transkei has enough problems of its own and the repatriates are the responsibility ofthe Republican Government . Merely because a man's grandfather originally came from Baziya location in Umtata and decided to settle in Cape Town, is that any justification for his descendants to be brought back to the Transkei ? What about the problem of adjustment for the poor chap ? Perhaps he was a man of standing in Cape Town - how is he going to adjust himself in the Transkei after all the years he has spent there ? Mr. Chairman , I thank you. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak in favour of the work that has been done by the hon. the Minister of the Interior and his department , particularly the assistance in regard to starving women. I am also thankful that even from the Opposition statements have been made that this has been for the benefit and assistance of our people who are in distress . While on this point I must first of all say that this amount was required for people who were starving and we are grateful to know that there has been an increase in this provision. There was some talk of retrenchment and, in fact , some of these people have been retrenched, but we request that they should be put back on these jobs because famine is still raging. I think this scheme should be worked with the Department of Agriculture which sometimes wants these people to work for its own department, necessitating the removal of people far away from their homes. I think the aim should be that a woman goes out in the morning, leaving the children, and that she should be able to return in the evening to minister to those children. That would bring about the position where the children do not have to run around the location yelling for the mother who is not at home. Another point which was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was in connection with people who came into the Republic to work from other countries . I think such people should be given work after our own people have been catered for , because sometimes our people cannot get employment just because foreigners have been given work instead. I also support the move in connection with polling stations and I think we also have that complaint in the TNIP , that there should be literate representatives of the parties . However, because the vote is secret a representative of the parties should be allowed to visit other polling stations . That would eliminate the possibility of a person voting for a candidate he does not know. Someone has mentioned the use of symbols. Illiterate people know nothing about symbols. They know names . A voter will know nothing about symbols when he sets off for the polling station. All he has in mind is a particular name . He should have a representative of the party to go along with him to assist him. I
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak after the last speaker who is an elderly man who should be in that old- age home . As he stated that old people should be cared for by other old people I think he would be a suitable person for that post . (Laughter) Coming to the question of recruiting, people who go to the Republic under contract are receiving ill-treatment. In these towns there is a lot of bribery. The Government should find means to counteract this bribery. It is quite clear that the clerks should not remain for a long time in the offices . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : listen to me yesterday.
You didn't
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. member seems to be repeating what has already been said.
MR. MAJIJA: These contracts are also the cause of a great many divorce cases because the wives are not allowed to go and live with their husbands at the work centres . This Government does not wish to consult with the Republican Government in order that the wives of the workers should be able to visit their husbands , then you will find children without their mothers because the mothers have been deserted by their husbands . The Government should try to protect marriages . I think the amount of the relief fund is very little . The money paid to the individual is too low and the Government should increase it. In one case I found women working under the relief scheme in a damp marshy place . Just close to Umtata I found these women standing in water. We should take into account the people's health and should not say we are helping people when we are killing them . ( Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
MR. MAJIJA : If assistance is going to be given to people I say all people should receive assistance in that all commodities should be subsidized by the Government, because during the drought periods all the people suffer star-
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He did policy speech of the hon. Minister. say he would make every effort to increase the provision which will help people to meet hardships caused by the drought, but I have a little criticism to make . He mentioned that the people eat mealies which are not ready, which increases the shortage. It is our duty to teach our people economy in everything that is theirs . We should not be like mice which creep into the stack and consume everything. It behoves us to teach the people in the locations that they should not do anything which will cause them hardship the following day. In regard to polling which is referred to on page 16 , I thank the hon. Minister because this is of general importance. It is for everybody to see that the vote Everyone knows what a low poll is theirs . there was in the recent bye-elections . It is for the chiefs and members of this Assembly to see that everyone ensures he is registered as a voter. I put that point to the hon. Minister Another point is that in for consideration . connection with social welfare officers , because we have no-one to look after our health. Representations should be made to the Minister to see that there are certain points to which people can be sent without being sent to hospital so Anybody that they can be treated at home . with foresight should encourage that move wherAnother point is in connection ever he be. with our youths who hold Junior Certificate and who go out beyond the borders of the Transkei and cannot get employment. It then behoves us to go out to these labour centres and point out to the employers that these people I am a resident of the are J.C. students. Umtata district and I thought perhaps by now a member of this district would have told our Ministers what to do . It sometimes does happen that these people , although they hold a Junior or Senior Certificate , do not get the same rate of pay as their White counterparts . This has not been attended to although this Assembly has been in existence for seven years , and it should have been seen to by the members of this district. Matters have cropped up in the hon.
vation. The whole Transkei should receive assistance , not just a few areas. In the Estimates certain moneys are shown and I do not know what is the purpose of those moneys. On page 23 , under F, items 4 and 5 it says " Pauper Relief and Other". I do not know what "other" refers to. These moneys reflected in 4 and 5 should be taken and paid over as assistance to the people who are starving. If people are employed under relief it should be noted that those are the people who really require assistance . I know of certain people under the relief scheme whose husbands are away at work, but there are also those people who have no - one working for the family. I know of certain cases of members of the TNIP telling people if they do not support the TNIP they will not receive any pension.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Quote a specific case . MR. MAJIJA : Now I shall talk about those people who require reference books . They meet quite a lot of difficulties in the magistrate's office, because they travel there and have to pay for travelling to the magistrate's office , and when they get there they are told there are no forms in the office . The Government should see to it that there is enough stationery and forms. It often happens that there are forms but they are kept for other people . I remember at my place one young man went three times but could not obtain the forms and when I went to the office with the applicant I was told there were forms but the applicant had left the office too quickly that day. The Government should take note of this because these people are a submissive people and they carry out what instructions they get from the Government. (Interjections ) The fault lies with the clerks . We want to say again that symbols should be used during elections . The hon. Mr. Sihele said the people do not know symbols , but people will know if the symbol of the Democratic Party is a bull and the symbol for the TNIP is a wolf. People will know who the wolf is. (Interjections) Even if they are illiterate they can read the symbols .
Minister's speech which should have been attended to in the areas of the members concerned. As a new member I discover that the reason why the sessions are so long is because matters are brought here which should have been attended The hon. member for Ngqeleni , to outside . Mr. R.S. Madikizela , said that repatriates should be paid for by the Republic and not by the Transkei Government. He is the only person who will say that money should be refused to an absconder who leaves home and gets married outside and then comes home and asks for There are many people who are assistance . outside the Transkei who say they will never go to Xhosa- land, then the Republic asks them where they originated from and sends them back there. The hon. Minister has made provision for the I will not be return of these prodigal sons . lengthy, Mr. Chairman, because the other matters are not controversial and the House agrees I want to say that where there is a on them. move for development we should accept these things without disputing them.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 4 , Department of the Interior, was resumed. MR. N.L. MADUBELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I fully associate myself with the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. I would also like to associate myself with the Opposition in all it has said in appreciation of the speech. I am not going to repeat what has been said but I would express thanks on certain points which were raised by the hon. Minister . I will start with the point made by the hon. Chief D.D. P. Ndamase yesterday, when he gave us advice as to what should be done in this Assembly. I suggest it should 'be given consideration and we should express thanks for it. I want to start by saying it is
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish also to speak in connection
very pleasing to see unanimity as regards the 174 .
should be noted because it is an important question and the establishment of these stores is not a matter for joking . The population of the area is taken into account. The two-mile We radius prevented this present situation. spoke about the radius and even today we still speak about the radius because it was not in order. In fact , this came as a surprise because any trade must be dealt with by experts in that Even in matters connected with department. Even if it is education experts give advice . a matter connected with legal affairs , experts are given the chance to give advice . It is on that point precisely where we consider this matter has not been properly dealt with . When
with this policy speech. It is usual that after the policy speech has been delivered we should offer criticism. I will only mention a few points. An important matter in connection with those people who have been repatriated is that they complain that when they are repatriated no account is taken of moneys they have paid for insurance . When they have been repatriated they do not receive those moneys . Please , hon . Mr. Minister , take note of this and make investigations . You also know that there is a complaint of long standing in connection with moneys relative to miners ' phthisis . The complaint is that people are not allowed to collect this money in one lump sum. It is the desire of the people and we have always agreed on that point in this House , but, strange to say, it has never been realised . Your department is one of the most important departments because it handles health matters . The whole Cabinet , therefore, should come together and make suitable provision for the establishment of clinics . The establishment of clinics is of vital importance. We should not just resign ourselves to the ignorance of the people. Tuberculosis is a disease which devastates the Black people and there is no other country which is known to be so affected as the Transkei .
you spoke you referred to difficulties experienced through certain commodities being dumped at the station and not being transported to their I would suggest the respective destinations . extension of the railway from Umtata to Kokstad so that these difficulties will be solved. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It was suggested by the hon. the Chief Minister in his speech. MR. JAFTA : He was confirming what I first proposed. (Laughter) The hon. Minister also referred to the feeding scheme for children. We wish that feeding scheme could be extended to all schools .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Is that correct , or is it your opinion? and baw MR. JAFTA: It is correct. The reason why TB is so prevalent is because of the distances which have to be travelled by people requiring A person who does not know the treatment. prevailing conditions in the locations will know Ten to twenty miles is a nothing about that. long distance when an invalid has to travel to a clinic. Why should the clinics not be established on the same lines as the schools ? The lack of clinics is ruinous to the lives of the It is for that reason that I appeal to people. the Department of the Interior to take note of I would further say that animals are this. better considered than human beings . I mean to say that where cattle receive treatment , arrangements are made that they should not travel long distances . The hon. Minister spoke about the distances between the shops and he said his department takes the distance into account. I was surprised about this because he has done away with the radius rule , and I should like to know how he takes the distance into account . This matter is of importance and I ask him to reply and tell me how he arrived at the number of stores in the district of Qumbu , because he told me that there are about 20 shops in the Qumbu district and when I started to recollect , I found there were about 30 stores in the Qumbu district during the year 1964. When I calculate the number at the present day I find there are about a hundred stores . I shall be glad if he will explain to me if the figures he has given are correct and , if he is adamant about it , I will ask him to visit Qumbu.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: licensed stores ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I think we should now carry on with the amendment by the hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move ;" That Vote 4 , sub-head A, in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R3,000 " . One might wonder why this amendment is being moved because this Minister has so recently assumed the portfolio. In fact , it should be stated that the salary which should be reduced is the salary of the exMinister , but we may say as far as he is concerned that he has made a certain mistake in his policy speech. He made reference to all sections of his department , but there was a section which deals with auxilliary services which he omitted to mention . If he had intimated that that matter would appear in the report we would not say what we are now saying. Another matter which he overlooked is in connection with Workmen's Compensation. We would request you to have that Act amended in order that it should suit the conditions of the Black people . When a man who is single dies on the mines and is entitled to compensation, dependants are sought and if he has no wife then it becomes clear that there is no-one to whom compensation can be paid, even if he should have a mother and is living with the mother. On the other hand , when these widowed mothers apply for a pension they are asked if they have no sons to live with, and if one says she stays with her son who is at the mines the magistrate says he cannot recommend her for a pension . The magistrate states he is doing so in accordance with Native custom in this respect , that the parent lives and gets support from the son , but when it comes to Workmen's Compensation We ask you to we follow European custom .
Are those
MR. JAFTA: I am They are licensed . referring to shops in the Qumbu district . This 175 .
this only on paper and no action taken. In regard to the decrease in the number of births and deaths registered , one of the reasons is that the assistants who work in the rural areas complain of what they are paid namely 5c. When we placed this matter before the magistrate he suggested we should refer it to Umtata. Much has been said and it is not necessary for us to repeat ourselves like parrots . This is the most important department because it deals with matters of the interior. I will call upon the hon. chief to withdraw his amendment because it does not become him as a chief and as a father of a home , because as a chief he knows how difficult it is to manage people.
make the necessary provision . Kindly note also, in particular in connection with Umtata where there are small factories and the employees are largely women who are paid R1-70 per week. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You don't say why they get that salary. CHIEF NDAMASE : They do not get free board and lodging. We would ask you to make representations on behalf of those children working in the factories as there is no Wage Determination Board in the Transkei . Up to now you have not taken any steps in that regard . We therefore say your salary must be reduced .
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand to support the amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . He has already stated that you were not in the same portfolio and the money which is to be reduced you should therefore demand from the previous Minister. (Laughter) Before I go into lengthy explanations as to why this reduction should be made I wish first to deal with this matter. We are all very thankful for the increase in the amount paid to beneficiaries , which is now R10 , but we request that the payment should be made at the rate of R5 per month. We make this request because some people pay rent for the accommodation and the rent is paid monthly. They also buy on credit from the shops and the storekeepers want payment at the end of the month. In the Estimates an amount of R50,000 is reflected for the development of future townships , but during the financial year 1969/1970 that money was never used. We hear that the township of Ramahlokoana is just about to be declared and we are really surprised not to hear from the Minister's policy spech what has been achieved. This seems to be treated as a private matter which is not known by the people . I went to the Department of the Interior , although it is alleged that we do not go to those offices. There were certain matters I wished to know but I am sorry to say I did not find out those matters . I wish to know the extent of the erven and the value of the sites. I did not get the information because I was told that this matter was still under consideration. We have been informed that a circular has been sent round, particularly in Matatiele , giving such information and that the smallest site is about R48 . I was told that that information was received from the Matatiele magistrate . This is the letter. What can we do? We have been told to go to the department and when we get there we are told we cannot get the information. Is there
MR. B.S. MNYANI : I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. L. BALENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy speech and to oppose the amendment that the Minister's salary should be reduced . Instead of the salary being reduced it should be increased. We are talking about home when we are talking about matters of the Department of the Interior. No- one inthis Assembly is unaware of the importance of a home. It would be a disgrace to suggest that a father's salary should be reduced after all he has done . As a matter of fact, the Department of the Interior has done excellent work in so far as work- seekers are concerned and I am sure hon. members are aware of the improvements in this matter. The Republic has now directed requisitions for labour to the Transkei . I was on the Reef when I met a compound manager who told me that the City Council of Johannesburg had decided to get its labour from the Transkei . He spoke of the respect which they showed while employed . To come to social benefits , I am thankful that the Department of the Interior has increased this provision. I will only mention one difficulty we have in the rural areas as leaders of the people. It is to see old people loaded on sledges and taken to pay-centres , and when we placed this matter before the magistrate he told us that the forms with which to prepare powers of attorney were out of stock and were not obtainable even in Umtata. This has been a terrible hardship . One old woman actually died on the way. The hon. Mr. R.S. Madikizela has mentioned another hardship in relation to pay vouchers , and this has been a real worry . I am thinking of a case where an old woman gets to the pay-centre and is told that her pay voucher is not there . She is forced to come as many as three times and eventually is told that the money is finished and she need not come . The clerks advise her to make a re- application. Imagine what happens when a person starts from home at great expense to go and arrange this reapplication. She has to borrow money because she has none . Another matter was raised by father Sihele ( Laughter) who suggested that the paying staff should consist of elderly people because the youth have no respect for old age. It is pitiful to see our aged mothers being pushed about by these youngsters . This worries us even if we are not personally involved . I am also thankful that you are taking steps to see that bribery is stopped . I would not like to see
anything wrong with us ? The reason I bypassed you is because when we go to the other departments we are generally questioned as to why we sidestep the Minister . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Well , come to me, not to my officials . MR. MNYANI : I am hoping you will assist me now, because you are present now, if you don't want me to go to the officials under you. You should please tell us whether the title deeds which are going to be issued will be freehold title deeds or title deeds with a lesser value. 176 .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : different matter altogether.
The title deeds I say have no value are those which exist in the Butterworth district where people are told, though holding title deeds , that they have to move because a fence is to be erected . I am told a township is being established and we are told now the title deeds are freehold title deeds . On many occasions I have approached the previous Minister of the Interior in connection with a certain motion which was unanimously agreed to in this House in connection with markets , and also about a decision arrived at in this House for the construction of shelters for people to sell their vegetables . I have been told there have been no results as yet, but I will be pleased if you can tell me now what the results of those motions are . The
MR. GUZANA : No, it is relevant because we are trying to avoid this intimidation . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : The hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase said the money for relief measures is not sufficient. I will ignore that , because I have already intimated that it the money is insufficient I will apply for further funds . I did not say that merely to advise the members in this House , I said that to let all the people of the Transkei know that if it is necessary I shall apply for further funds . Reference has been made to the fact that Hansard is published only after a long delay. I think the members are not aware that I am not responsible for the issue of Hansard, but it is the function of the Chief Minister's department. One hon, member , Mr. R. Madikizela , also said that the polling results were announced only after a long interval . He also compared this with what obtains in the Republic . It is so , I agree , but I think if only the hon. member would understand that our results come from various places in the Republic.
motion I have no introduced is the granting of hawkers ' licences . The hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase requested you to see that the children who are employed in these factories should not be cheated in their pay. In the Rand Daily Mail of the 14th April , 1970 , we read that in the homelands all wage laws are being suspended , which means that the Black labourer can easily be cheated and his labour exploited . We have heard also that the XDC has a printing press in Butterworth and wants to pay the employees there a lower salary than the usual . We also fear that it will be said that the factories which produce bags are making a profit, whereas they are only cheating the labourers .
MR . R.S. MADIKIZELA : That is a fact in the Republic as well. It is a common factor. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : He should also be aware of the fact that results in the Republic are only a matter of assistance . They are not compelled to do that service for us. One never knows what the delay is , but there are such delays . Those people who assist us There might be as are in various centres . many as 400. Reference was also made to Kaffir-corn which was recommended for use by my department. It was also suggested that storage depots could be established , especially in Umtata . I appreciate such a suggestion but I think that matter should have been referred to the Department of Agriculture . One other question was raised , as to whether when contracts are received here with very low salary offers , these offers are referred back to the employers . The reply is in the positive , One other matter which is appreciated is the question raised about the labour bureau clerks who demand gifts from work- seekers who come to register. It was suggested that those clerks should be transferred fairly frequently in order to discourage this practice . We are grateful for such a suggestion and I shall refer it to my department for consideration . One other matter referred to was the shortage of beds in hospitals. That matter will be referred to the relevant authorities . Investigations have recently been made in connection with hospitals . particularly in Umtata....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the hon. Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , firstly I wish to refer to the remarks by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I think he might have had good intentions when he mentioned witnesses for the different parties at polling stations , but I want to draw his attention to the fact that I and my department have gone into the question of these witnesses. This is what I have found to be dangerous. Let us say , for instance , the election is in the Libode district. I am merely saying Libode - it might be Qamata or any other district. In the Libode district we know that most of the people are supporters of the Opposition Party. Let us say ten of the people from that area support the TNIP and differ with the Opposition. There are witnesses for the Democartic Party and the TNIP. Now, when these ten people realise that they do not go along with the majority of the people on the other side , how do you think they will feel ? I just want to explain that. What I am saying is that this witness is there and he sees these ten people support the governing party. Won't it be likely that these ten people are going to be victimized by the authorities that be ? There would be nothing to stop them. As a matter of fact , it is happening now. People are being victimized. MR. K.M. GUZANA : of secrecy?
That is a
What about the oath
MR . GUZANA :
Is that an honest answer?
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : tigations were made .
But still THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : there are leakages . In my view we shall be legalizing intimidation.
MR . GUZANA :
MR. GUZANA : If so, why not introduce symbols which will solve the question altogether?
Yes , inves-
And what was the result?
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I cannot tell you yet. We have not yet had a reply. The hon.
177.
The Assembly adjourned.
Mr. Mnyani referred to women selling produce and suggested that suitable accommodation should be erected . My department has referred the matter to the Umtata Municipality and before we rise I think we should have had a reply. I think I have replied to all the questions, Mr. Chairman , and I move that this Vote be adopted.
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. Minister move then that sub-head M of Vote 4 be increased by R250,000? THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I move that item M, Vote 4, be increased by R250,000.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: What about the lost vouchers , Mr. Chairman? That surely belongs to the hon. Minister's department.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I cannot make a definite statement now, because it is a matter needing investigation. You have only raised it now and you have not given specific cases.
I second.
Agreed to. The sum of R5,601,000 under Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was passed to stand part of the schedule.
Amendment put and negatived . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I thought I moved at the end of the policy speech that rule 142 be waived and that this Vote be increased.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, in the absence of the hon. the Chief Minister and in view of the fact that we have very little time within which the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry could deliver his policy speech , I move that the hon. Minister piloting this Vote 4 should now move that you report progress. (Laughter)
Yes , if I remember , the MR. GUZANA : hon. Minister moved that we waive a prohibition. This House agreed to waive the prohibition and now he must move his amendment to the effect that sub-head M be increased because he can now enjoy the indulgence under the waived rule.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I welcome that suggestion but I think we will have to regularize our figures in the Estimates of Expenditure in view of the fact that there has been this increase . All the figures now are wrong and therefore this is some homework to be done by whoever is responsible for this bill , so that we have these figures amended correspondingly.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I therefore move, Mr. Chairman, that item M be amended by an addition of another R250,000 . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, may I know if this amendment has been put down on the order paper ? You see , what has upset the whole matter is that the reply of the hon. the Minister of the Interior has been most off-hand and almost careless , with complete disregard of the serious matters raised. May I suggest that he moves we adjourn and puts in that amendment and we will grant him that.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I move that you report progress , Mr. Chairman,
Agreed to. House Resumed
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , usually late in the afternoon hon. members tend to quibble on small matters . In the minutes of the 11th May, 1970 , page 119, this appears : "The Minister further proposed in terms of rule 165 ofthe standing rules that rule 142 be suspended so as to allow the Minister to increase the sub-vote in connection with relief." Rule 165 (1 ) reads as follows : "Any standing rule of procedure or sessional order or orders of the Assembly may be suspended upon motion made after notice , such motion being carried by a majority of votes: Provided that in cases of urgent necessity (of which the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall be the judge ) any such standing rule or order may, with the consent of the Assembly, be suspended upon motion made without notice . " This is precisely what took place in this case .
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wenesday, 13th May, 1970 .
WEDNESDAY, 13th MAY, 1970
Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House sit in committee .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think if we have to argue the matter, let us argue it to its logical conclusion.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think we should adjourn until 4.15 p.m.
Agreed to. 178.
House in Committee
The amount required for the Agricultural Branch is mainly for the replacement ofwornout equipment and machines required for the Qamata Irrigation Scheme and the Tea Project where the production stage has now been reached ,
POLICY SPEECH OF THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members ·
The increased amount budgetted for under item 2 of this sub-head is to purchase fuel for the tea factory at Lambasi .
I will briefly deal with the estimated expenditure for the present financial year as set out under Vote 5 of the printed estimates ,
The expenditure in connection with the Tsolo College of Agriculture and all extension work is reflected under sub-head G. The same amount as for last year is asked for. This is , however, not an indication that no development has taken place in this connection. The staff for this work is steadily increasing and the Department has also acquired a mobile film unit to intensify its efforts in persuading the farmers to practise better farming methods and to increase their production.
It will be noted that the amount under subhead A. has been decreased by R183,400 in comparison with last year. This is partly due to the fact that the requirements were overestimated last year because the necessary staff could not be recruited. It is anticipated that this year it will again not be possible to fill all the posts as suitably qualified staff is not readily available. Promotions , salary increases , expansion of the establishment and increased overtime payments have , however, been provided for.
This service is still the most vital rendered by my Department, because it is basic to any improvement which we hope to achieve in the agricultural field. Much has been said about agricultural development, and volumes of literature have been written on the subject. Many theories have been expounded but one cannot hope to make much progress without an efficient extension service . By this I do not profess that the extension services of my Department are all I wish them to be. Although the organisation may be adequate much still depends on the quality of the extension staff. This aspect my department strives to improve by arranging short courses for the existing staff and we are fast approaching the stage when we will be able to be much more selective in the appointments we make, because not all people, although they may have the necessary qualifications , have the inclination or necessary aptitude to become successful extension officers.
The main reason why less funds are required under this subhead for the new financial year, is because the professional and technical consultants ' fees have been reduced by R190,000 as no new major development schemes will be investigated during 1970. The fixed establishment of the Department has been increased considerably during the past year and taking into account the large number of labourers employed, the Department provides a livelihood to more than 10,000 persons per annum . Subhead B, has been increased considerably due to increased rates of subsistence allowances , a much greater volume of products , such as timber, which has to be transported by government vehicles and more material and equipment which have to be transported by rail.
Because of the relative importance of subhead H I will deal with it in somewhat more detail.
Sub-head C. has been reduced because postage that was provided for last year is now allowed for under vote I.
Item 1. deals with livestock to be purchased by the Department for different purposes. An increased amount is provided this year because more sires are being bought for resale and this also brings about greater expenditure in holding over these animals until such time as they are sold, Provision is also made for the purchase of bulls to be used at breeding schemes which it is the intention to organise during this year . These schemes should in time to come provide bulls for resale to farmers , thereby reducing the numbers that have to be bought from outside the Transkei.
The increased amounts provided for under sub-heads D and E. must be attributed mainly to increased departmental activities .
Sub-head F is one of the most important and also one of the biggest under my vote . The amount budgetted for this year is appreciably higher than last year. This is mainly because the activities of the Forestry Branch in connection with expoitation and utilisation have greatly increased. Additional equipment and machinery are required for the planning mill at Umtata and the logmills at Mount Ayliff and Langeni , whilst as a result of development more firefighting equipment has become essential.
Item 2. has also been increased considerably, mainly because :(a) it is expected that more leaves will have to be delivered to the Phormium decorticating installations which will necessitate the employment of more labour ;
The expenditure on equipment for the Engineering Branch will be on stone crushers and standby machines , whilst the biggest proportion · of the expenditure for this Branch is to replace machines that have become unserviceable through fair wear and tear.
(b) labour will have to be employed to work at the tea factory which will soon start production;
179.
If we do not take strong basis of existence . action, we will betray the trust reposed in us by the Republican Government when it placed the responsibility to care for our soil in our own hands , and we will strengthen the arguments of those who say that we are not responsible enough to be allowed to manage our own affairs. In this regard, Mr. Chairman, I must also refer to the use of arable land. The Department of Interior is also associated with this problem but I will endeavour to confine myself to the agricultural aspect. We are all aware of the constant clamour for arable land by landless From a soil conservation point of people. view, the question should be asked whether more and more land should be brought under the plough to expose it to the ravages of soil erosion, whilst many morgen of land are misused , neglected and allowed to erode away by landholders who are not capable or responsible enought to care for our precious soil. I refer specifically to unplanned areas where many new lands are ploughed every year even without proper authorization , not to mention the natural forests that are eradicated continually for this Would it not be sounder to deprive purpose. those who do not manage their lands properly of their land rights and to re- issue the lands to some of the landless people ? This should encourage landholders to manage their lands properly thereby preventing erosion and increasing production. Less land will be broken up until such time that an administrative area can be planned and virgin land , properly protected by diversion banks , can be issued where required . In planning we usually find the position to-day that soil destruction has reached such an advanced stage that it becomes very difficult to provide all land owners with a reasonable land As things are at when the area is planned . present the position is growing worse every year and the problem becomes greater and greater. The funds required for compensation resulting from reclamation planning and for the establishment of woodlots are normal and natural
(c) apart from the factory, many labourers will be employed for the picking of tea leaves; and (d) the establishment of a new tea project at Majola in the Port St. Johns district . It can be foreseen that farmers will find it difficult to acquire suitable breeding stock for the proposed breeding schemes under Item 1. It is therefore proposed to buy cows departmentally for resale to the farmers and for this purpose funds are specially provided under Item 3. Considerably more farmers will be settled on the irrigation schemes during this year. Every probationary lessee on an irrigation scheme is given a R40 grant during the first year and the expenditure on this service will be higher than last year . For the first time the Department has also earmarked funds for subsidies and loans to private farmers who wish to apply a soil conservation scheme to their farms . All this will bring about an increased expenditure of R45,000 for assistance to farmers . This item provides further for the purchase of improved sires for resale purposes . There is also a considerable increase under Item 4. A concerted effort will be made to eradicate noxious weeds such as hakea and jointed cactus and although the expenditure on this service seems high, it is very necessary and provides considerable extra employment. The amount required for reclamation services has been reduced because it has been found that the Department could not manage the rate of planning that was previously anticipated . It should, however , be mentioned in this connection that the co-operation received from the people in connection with the soil conservation scheme is improving . The Department finds itself in the position to -day that it is unable to cope with all the requests for soil conservation schemes. A special effort will be made during this year to step up the preparation and execution of soil conservation plans because it remains a fundamental and essential aspect of agricultural development in the Transkei . No matter what we do to increase the agricultural production of the territory it will be of little avail if we do not safeguard our soil . Soil erosion is a very serious problem in the Transkei. We lose an alarming proportion of our productive capacity every year and unless we all realise the seriousness of this and all join in a concerted effort to arrest the process , the consequences will be very serious , not only for the Transkei , but also for the whole of This matter is so important South Africa .
consequences of reclamation planning. On the whole this sub-head provides for R400,500 less than last year. This should , however, not be interpreted as if less importance is attached to the work. It is confidently expected that this year even more constructive work will be done in this regard , especially because the rate of planning will be stepped up. More important than the funds spent by the Government is the attitude of the people and the contribution they make towards better farmming. In this connection I want to make special · reference to the co- operative movement. The membership ofthe co-operative societies now stands at 6,000 . Considering the adverse conditions experienced since the inception ofthe scheme in the Transkei , the progress that has been made is very encouraging. Much of the work and effort by my Department are being directed towards assisting and advising the cooperative societies thereby helping them to help themselves . Mr. Chairman , I consider this work of the utmost importance and perhaps of a more positive nature than the other agricultural activities of my Department , although it is not
that the time is ripe for the Government to take drastic action in cases where complete destruction threatens and where the people do not appreciate the urgency to save what remains to be saved. Mr. Chairman, I say this in great earnest because I know that this Assembly , as a responsible body of men, will agree that we cannot stand by and watch the destruction of our
180 .
so wasteful . It is the duty of every citizen to prevent the wastage of wanter by closing taps , braking windmills when the reservoirs are overflowing and to guard against the damage of water installations . Most important of course is to prevent damage to our grass cover and natural forests because if these are cared for properly , our springs will not dry up so soon. The people themselves can, therefore , do much to stave off water shortages and this will be much more effective than to expect my Department to provide water when there is none . We cannot make water , we can only develop water sources . Underground water will disappear , if the land is misused .
reflected in terms of rand and cents in the budget. To develop these societies is a very difficult task because not many people understand their responsiblities towards their societies. I believe however, that it will contribute largely to the improvement of our agriculture because above all it also entails human development which is so important to success . It is my intention to give special attention to the further development of the co-operative scheme during the coming year as a means of assisting the farmer to produce more economically. Sub-head J. of my vote deals with engineering services and here I wish to point out two aspects only. You will notice that nearly R2,000,000 is required for this purpose . The greatest amount is earmarked for the proposed Ncora Irrigation Scheme. At this stage it has not yet been finally decided to proceed with the scheme but the preliminary results of investigations point to the desirability of tackling the scheme and provision had to be made for such an eventuality. In particular I wish to draw the attention of the Assembly to item 2 of this sub-head. During the last three years the estimated expenditure under this item was R118,000 , R380,000 and R530,000.
In dealing with sub -head K, I can report that good work has been done during the past year. In due course our laboratory will be able to do a large number of tests for diagnostic purposes . In two months ' time the first class of Stock Inspectors trained in the Transkei will complete their course . Because of the adverse conditions experienced over the past years , however, it has become necessary to suspend dipping at times because of the poor condition of the animals and because some dipping tanks had no more water. This has had the result of a higher incidence of the tickborne disease , red water. This need not cause any alarm .
It should be clear to all that I am pursuing a policy of adequate water supplies for the people. The work has already developed beyond the stage where it can be managed by my Department and most of it is already in the hands of contractors. This is the only way to provide domestic water within a reasonable period of time , although this is a field where I feel that Transkeians could play a greater part. It is for this reason that my departmental organisation is maintained in order that men can be trained with a view to undertaking some contract work themselves at a later stage .
I consider it my duty to make mention also of the problem of the Regional Authorities to finance their dipping operations . As a result of high cattle losses over the past few seasons , the revenue has dropped because of lesser numbers on which stock levy is paid . Added to this comes the need to use more effective but also more expensive dipping materials because the ticks are building up resistance to arsenite of soda . It has , therefore , become incumbent on the Regional Authorities to consider the position very seriously. Everyone will agree that dipping of cattle cannot be done away with. How then is the problem to be overcome ? A few possibilities suggest themselves , e.g. an increase of the dipping levy, which in any case is low compared to the increased costs of other services or commodities over the last number of years , or else it may be high time to also raise a levy on sheep and goats and horses which are the real destroyers of veld and which have flourished during the dry seasons at the expense of the cattle and to the detriment of the grazing in general .
Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware of the problems in regard to domestic water supplies and it will serve little purpose for the Assembly to dwell too long over the matter. Everybody can rest assured that the Department is doing its best to bring relief. We all know that the water supplies are dwindling as a result of a series of unusually dry years . It is not the result of the past dry season only and I wish to warn all that it will take more than one season of good rains before conditions will again become normal . By this time I accept that all members are also aware of the 1970 water year. I wish to associate myself whole -heartedly with the object of the water year. Although it may not have
Mr. Chairman and Honourable members , the following two sub- heads concern the Forestry Branch and you will notice that in each case an increased amount is required, the reasons being firstly , a greater production of timber because of the enlarged capacities of the logmills and secondly, new improved wage scales for labourers . The greater capacity of the logmills also brings about a bigger labour force . One aspect that is causing me considerable concern is the system of forestry roads . The back log of roads to be constructed is taking on serious proportions thereby increasing the fire hazard and making exploitation less econo-
the same significance to us in the Transkei as elsewhere, because we do not rely so much on stored water, it is nevertheless very important that we should always be fully aware of the importance of water and the need to prevent its wastage . If we would only reflect a while over the water that has been wasted and is still being wasted, at rain water storage tanks , windmills and reservoirs it will be realised that in many cases where great inconvenience is suffered because of a shortage of water, it need not have been so if people had not been
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mical. In an effort to improve the position more funds are required for the maintenance of roads to ensure that the existing roads will be in good order.
in the Transkei are very bad and usually quite unsuitable and this is largely due to the fact that each farmer has no complete right to plough his land at any time because of community ploughing of lands . It is for that reason that if an individual wishes to plough his land at any particular time , he is debarred from doing so because of the conditions existing in his community. The community spirit prevailing in the locations prevents people from ploughing as they wish. Each person who has to plough a land in the location largely depends upon certain authorities or powers which may not allow him to use his land. I am going to say something which appears in other countries and compare it with what happens in the Transkei.
Furthermore, it is the intention to again pay special attention to the threat of drift sand at various places along the coast . It is of great importance that our coast line which is a great potential asset to the Transkei be conserved . In this connection I also wish to make it publicly known that as far as my Department is concerned, I intend in future to take strong action in connection with the control of forest reserves along the coast. The Forest Act enables me to protect our forest reserves and I propose to do so in future . Action will be taken against persons who illegally enter into or camp on forest reserves and persons who are permitted to camp on forest reserves will no longer be allowed to misuse these areas. It is alarming to see the destruction caused by holiday makers in some places . Too often these areas are being turned into unsightly rubbish heaps which is a disgrace to those responsible . I hope to put an end to this.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Won't you tell us about these hidden powers ? MR . JAFTA: We have been informed that in Russia the people are under the complete authority of the State and they have to go and perform any work at the dictates of the State. (Interjections ) As a result of that famine has not been experienced.
Mr. Chairman and Honourable members , I trust that you have been able to form an impression of the work my Department is doing and intends to do during the coming year and move that Vote 5 be passed by this Committe . MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : second .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : like the Transkei to be like that?
Would you
Allow me to carry on. In MR. JAFTA: the Transkei the people are under conditions similar to those revailing in Russia. The difference is that the people of this country work in the opposite direction to that of Russia. (Interjections ) The community encourages laziness.
Mr. Chairman, I
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to comment on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. For some years it has been usual to speak after the delivery of the policy speeches and I wish to draw the attention of the House to the most important speech made by the hon. the Minister of Finance in which he stated that the Transkei could produce 50 million bags of maize a year. When he made this statement he was stressing the importance of agriculture and he went on to state that 45% of the Transkei has been planned in order to meet this situation. We expected the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to give an explanation in this House as to how this 45% which has been mentioned would produce these 50 million bags of mealies . One difficulty met with by the farmer in the Transkei is that the land which he ploughs does not belong to him. We usually get policy speeches which give promises . If we lived on these promises we would have our stomachs filled , because every year we hear promises that conditions are going to be better and better , and the promises are not fulfilled. The drought which has been experienced for 30 to 40 years is the cause of the crop failures . I do not want to place the blame on the drought and not on the people because this drought is not experienced only in the Transkei but in other countries . Other countries find means ofmaking a living, however , even though they experience The fault in this country is largely drought. owing to the fact that the extent of land ploughed by the people is small and moreover it does not belong to the people . Ploughing methods
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where is the parallel? OPPOSITION MEMBER:
Tribal authorities .
MR. JAFTA : As a result our country suffers famine yearly. As Russia forces people to work, in the Transkei there are certain concealed authorities which prevent people from working. I do not know the relationship between these words "communism " and "community" . I have already said that one goes in one direction and the other in the opposite . (Interjections ) Take an example from the Agricultural School at Tsolo , where a certain plot of land is allotted to a person. This person is given a land, cattle , poultry, etc. , and implements to use on that land such as any ordinary Transkeian might have . That model plot works out well because that individual is not under location influences . This man who is given three morgen of land can produce 40 to 50 bags of maize , but give the same land to a man in the location and you will find it will be difficult for him to produce 3 to 4 bags. Compare these two - the same extent of land , but the difference lies in the way the land is used. A young man leaving that school will be desirous of applying the methods taught in school and he attempts to plough timeously , sow timeously, to cultivate the land and reap timeously . Then he meets this discouragement when he first sows his mealies - stock is let loose into his lands and if he reploughs this
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are flourishing well. Compare that with a place where this community rule is non-existent. This requires that people should think and think again to find a solution to this problem. You also touched upon certain lands which should be increased - lands belonging to certain people so that a person can make a living. If that could be realised and a person willing to plough should be given a large area of the land , that would be a solution , but the difficulty is that if the land is taken away from people , what will they eat? The hon. Mr. Madikizela says the land will only be taken away from those people who do not use their land properly. There is this difficulty about it, that when you take the land from a person, what will you give him instead as a means of making a living ? (Interjections ) That is the question you will be asked by the person from whom the land is taken. He will ask you what he is going to live on. If you ask that question of me I will tell you to put up factories so that those people who have no land should be employed and be paid a suitable wage.
land he does not get the crop he would have got earlier. He may not reap his land at the date he wishes to because he will be told it is not time yet to reap . That is what discourages this young man and he loses all hope . At school he has fowls in a proper fowl - run. They lay eggs and hatch a lot of chickens , and out in the location he will have his fowl- run but the dogs of the location will destroy his eggs . (Interjections ) He can make a very good fowlrun but the dogs are so greedy they will break right through his fence . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
MR. JAFTA: I am telling the truth. As a result of all those things this man's crop is Let me also tell you about the very poor. results of this community ploughing in the If you travel to Johannesburg via Transkei. 'Maritzburg by car , as you approach the Transkei you will travel smoothly right to Umzimkulu and from there you will find stock on the roads which hinders progress and it becomes worse when you get to Mount Ayliff, Mount Frere , Qumbu, Tsolo, Umtata, Idutywa and right through to Butterworth. You will find stock on the road cattle , horses , dogs, donkeys and pigs - right
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That's right, that is something concrete now.
MR . JAFTA: Another difficulty which has been mentioned is that of water. Water is a more urgent requirement in the Transkei today than it ever was because of the drought we have suffered and it is necessary now that irrigation schemes should be effected by the Government. There are some schemes , but they are not sufficient to meet the present need . People should sow those crops which suit the area in When you come here from which they live . Qumbu you will see a land known as Mbokotwana which does not produce anything at all . It lies with the hon. Minister to investigate and find out what could be produced by that part of the country. My suggestion is that if irrigation is introduced and lucerne planted there , you will have a good winter crop. Once lucerne has been planted it remains and carries on indefinitely. All it requires is irrigation. We would meet no difficultues as far as irrigation is concerned because there is a stream called Xokonxa which has water. Even the idea you cherished in connection with the Tsitsa River shows that there is necessity for people to think, and not only to think once , but to go on thinking . You spoke about the improvement of stock, but you cannot improve stock and expect that stock to live on grass only. We should also think about all those crops suitable for winter and for times of drought. Last year the Transkei Government made a very good suggestion of That would be a ordering fodder for cattle. heavy burden on the Government and it should be left in the hands of the people themselves to produce fodder for their own stock. All that I have said goes on and on , and you find that the whole source of the trouble is community ploughing , which does delay progress .
through, and a motorist is liable to be involved in an accident as a result of this . It is unusual to travel on the roads and not find a dog which has been run over by a car , or cattle . For this reason people sometimes lose their lives . This is a result of the community spirit. People take care of their own stock, as you see with people residing in Maclear. All this leads us to the fact that we should try to find a solution. The hon. the Chief Minister said in his policy speech that we must think and think again, and try to solve this problem in the Transkei . What I have stated is one of those things which hinder progress in agriculture . Again, we meet with difficulties in regard to our cattle . The hon. Minister spoke about the introduction ofgood breeding stock to be sold to the people , but one of the difficulties in this connection is that if you have good stock that stock meets with scrub animals in the grazing areas . The other day you said you can lead a horse to the water but if it won't drink what can you do ? You meant that if we speak to the people and they don't do what we tell them, what can we do? It is evident that if you take your horse to the water and it will not drink it has some disease which prevents it from drinking. He , as the Minister , must find out what this disease is and for that reason the hon. the Chief Minister has asked us to think and think again. Mr. Chairman, if people have experienced drought and famine for a period of 30 years , that requires people to Try to find out what is the sit and think. reason. You have said repeatedly day in, day out, that the Transkei soil is fertile , but where will people find something to eat? Is it only a fable? People have to eat. To prove that the country is fertile you see the lands which are not under this community rule producing fertile vegetation. Our forests are not under the rule of the community. The tea plantation at Lambasi is not under this community rule . The phormium tenax factory at Butterworth is not under this community rule. As a result, those schemes
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, what is your alternative to community ploughing ? I leave that in the hands of MR. JAFTA : the hon. Minister . Probably the Ministers dis183 .
them , Sir, but because I was interested particularly in your reference to driftsands along our coast. I do not know whether you have actually experienced it with your own eyes , but I happen to know certain parts that are really fast running to desert conditions. It is gratifying , though, to note that steps have been taken to arrest these driftsands and the results have been very promising .
pute that that is so.. Last year I suggested that the Transkei Government should get some experts to come and investigate these conditions , and I am pleased to say that the hon. the Chief Minister said something similar to this in his policy speech. The cause of the starvation of the people in the Transkei for the last 30 years will then, and only then, be discovered and it is then that these conditions which I have mentioned will be investigated and perhaps a solution arrived at. If you do not plough on the date when you should plough , you will fail. People hesitate when they get the first rains. Even now we have had some showers and if the owners of the land would cut down the dried mealie stalks and plough the land that would be something, but people are debarred from doing that because of their environment. It is for that reason that people cannot achieve anything. In some places there is a standing rule that one cannot reap the lands before a certain fixed date . Even if he goes to cut off those dry stalks his community will scold him and ask him why he is doing so. (Interjections) Such words are not encouraging to this man and sometimes those words come from one rich man who wants to benefit by those dry stalks . (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
MR. K.M. GUZANA : What steps were taken? MR. MADIKIZELA : Reclamation , where the department sends its experts and through some expert work in reclaiming the soil and arresting the driftsands . I will invite the hon. Minister to come and examine one spot in my area. I am not blowing my own trumpet but it is a spot and I can (Laughter) I actually reclaimed way to the promise him he will be welcome on spend the night with me at my place . Now , coming to the question of.... MR. GUZANA : You have not told us what is done to reclaim the soil from the driftsand. MR . MADIKIZELA : I have very little time to reply to hecklers . (Laughter) In regard to reclaiming all these driftsands and preventing the coast from being ruined by tourists who very carelessly remove parts of plants and even parts of the soil or fossils from the coast down at Umzamba Mouth , where the hon. the Leader of the Opposition once went to open a bridge, (Laughter) there is a wonderful example of fossils and natural vegetation which the tourOne ists exploit and take away with them. type of fossil reveals that there is a buried forest which must have been buried a billion years ago, but an outcrop reveals that there must be something below the surface .
Order , please .
MR . JAFTA : All these things deter agricultural progress . If people would make use of the showers we have had recently they would have done a great deal of good . You ask me to say who stops these people from using their lands as they wish. I am telling you it is the environment in which they live . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please.
MR . JAFTA: All these things cause the ploughing to fail and I believe even in the coming year we shall meet the same conditions of failure . I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA :
What is the " something "?.
AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. MADIKIZELA : Of course, coal would be the most likely product to be obtained there from the buried forest. I also offer my services to take the hon. Minister to that part.
The debate on Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry , was resumed.
MR . GUZANA : Would you like to take over his portfolio again?
MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to second the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . I find it a very pleasant duty to do so because the statement is clearcut and constructive and is the result of thorough planning. Nevertheless , I would like to make a few remarks with regard to some of the items in his speech. Particularly pleasing was the way he is going ahead to settle the question of soil erosion and to enhance development in the Transkei . The policy laid down is so good that the speaker opposite found nothing to criticize , except that he had to grapple around in the dark trying to find something wrong with it, when he blamed the Government for stray dogs and stray cattle and stray everything, and perhaps witches and witch- craft. (Laughter) But, Mr. Chairman, I would like to lay stress on a few points , not because you did not mention
MR. MADIKIZELA: I am not going to use any hidden force to work against him. Again, coming to this nature conservation and to support the previous speaker about people growing crops which they should not have grown in any case , he cites the example of Mbokotwana in the Tsolo district. That is also a wonder of nature where no grain of any kind will grow. There are also plenty of other places in the Transkei where certain types of crops cannot grow , while they would grow very well in other parts . I can assure you that with the help of the people there it would be quite easy for the department to arrange for certain crops to be grown there , and since it is in his area I think he should be the first man to preach to the people in the same spirit that he was trying to persuade us that we should convert ourselves to communism . (Laughter) But we will give him the credit that he did not know exactly what he meant when he
The debate was adjourned.
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magistrate the people who have not yet accepted rehabilitation ask the magistrate what difference there is between the areas which have already been rehabilitated and those which have not. They will go further and state that in the rehabilitated areas there is no water. (Interjections) Now, I suggest that we come together and discuss this question of agriculture and arrive at a solution. The reason why we speak in this manner is because we in the Legislative Assembly are well fed and our stomachs are full , whereas the people outside are hungry and starving. You probably did not understand what the first speaker was driving at in his speech . What he said was that people should plough together and after they have ploughed their crop should be divided equally amongst those people who plough together. The people who are employed and have been trained in agriculture could be of great assistance to the Department of Agriculture , but I fear they are not in a position to bring their advice to that department. People in various types of employment usually have their own associations , such as those of teachers , civil servants , trade unions, etc. , but unfortunately the employees in this department are not allowed to organise an association of their own. It is that association
invited us to accept communism. We can just pass it on as a bad joke which is not to his credit. (Interjections) He knows that other places in Tsolo are on the map of the department for irrigation purposes. I am thinking again of a place in Umzimkulu district where the Swartberg people will grow mealies when they have only three months in which to grow them, and those people will not accept our recommendations from the department to move towards Umzimkulu village and leave that place for other pastoral or any other sort of farming that would be suitable , particularly when they are given compensation for getting better farming land than they have on top of the mountain. Now, you mentioned the question of stock diseases which are , of course , accountable by the growth of the tick population. This has assumed alarming proportions in my area but I do not think it would be wise to tax dogs and sheep to combat that disease. I think, Sir, it would be better, and the department would find it easier and we would also find it easier, if we could convince the people to pay for their cattle even though they have diminished. If they have to buy vaccine for their cattle they have to pay R1 or even more. I think it would be easier to convince them they should just pay this R1 per beast in order to save them, (because the skins or hides are not even worth R1 after they have been damaged by ticks) so that they can have their stock protected . Now, Sir , again I would like to mention a question which is very pleasing to note and that is that you are encouraging co-operatives in the Transkei , but one finds that of late there has been very, very little help from your department by way of demonstrators to help these people.
which could make representations to the employer in regard to the improvement which can be made. Let me pass on to stock, because agriculture does not end with the land; it also affects stock. My hon. friends at the back say the land should be fenced. I do not say there should be no fencing, but merely that it should be a sensible sort of fence so that it will be attractive to the people . It happens sometimes that in the same district there are certain locations which have been fenced and those which are unfenced , but the fence is introduced by those in authority by making certain threats to people who do not accept rehabilitation. One wonders then if those people who reside in unrehabilitated areas are not also people of the Transkei . When there are stock sales you will find that tractors come to give assistance to the people and those people who have not accepted rehabilitation are told they have no right to this There are also people employed assistance . in the forests , and they have houses where they are accommodated during the time they are in employment. They pay rent for those houses but in former times they were given that accommodation free of charge and were also given four acres to plough for their own use . Now that acreage has been decreased to about a quarter of an acre . Those people used to have people staying with them and they kept those people in case of emergency or outbreaks of fire to go and ask for assistance from adjacent locations .
MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think all reasonable people realise this department is the means of sustenance to the people of the Transkei . As the hon. the Minister of Finance stated in his policy speech, agriculture is the backbone of the nation and new methods should be found . Now, the question arises : Is the rehabilitation scheme at present applied the solution to the problem of this department in the Transkei ? Is it a solution when it is really so unpopular with the residents of the Transkei ? ( Interjections ) GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Who makes it unpopular? MR. ZIBI : Let me speak in Xhosa because these people do not understand. The population is increasing but the land is not increasing. It is maintained that rehabilitation can be a solution as far as agriculture is concerned . When the fence has been erected that seems to be the end though, but is fencing the be-all and end-all ? The residents of an area which
MR. Z.M. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to take part in the discussion on the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I congratulate him on the way he has prepared his speech and on his proposals in connection with certain things. He enumerated certain achievements by his department, including the tea project which is now about to be finalized . He laid stress on this project because it opened avenues of employment for
has been fenced in are promised that after the location has been fenced windmills and boreholes will be erected . Would it not probably be beneficial to begin rehabilitation by putting into effect all the promises and then lastly put up the fence? For instance , there are usually promises of clinics , schools , water facilities and plantations . Why not put up the fence last? Sometimes when consultation is held with the 185.
In partment of Agriculture is progressing. regard to the substances used to combat tickborne diseases , this is another hardship to the people because , apart from the death of their cattle from drought, diseases have now appeared. We are glad your department is keeping an eye on the position . Those are the points I wished to raise in support of the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture .
people .
It is matters of such a nature which should be encouraged in order that people may earn a livelihood . He also mentioned progress in the phormium tenax project at Butterworth. That also opens up avenues of employment , as we all know we are restricted in the matter of employment in the Transkei . He also mentioned the increase in the staff for extension services in the rural areas . This is a very important matter because formerly that was how the Transkei managed to exist. Many of the members know that owing to these recent droughts the people are not able to produce enough to eat, but formerly even though we had droughts the people could still manage , and the famine was not so severe , because the people were taught agriculture . He also mentioned , amongst other things including the purchase of bulls of good breed, that we will be able to purchase cows . All along bulls have been available , but we are thankful now that cows will also be available . The hon. Minister mentioned irrigation schemes in various areas , particularly in the Ncora area , and these things show that the department is not asleep and has its own aims . We hope these things will assist the Transkei , particularly in respect of water in the upper regions of the Transkei. He also mentioned that farmers who need assistance will get assistance from his department. That is important, and it is also another innovation. In regard to the land , it is expected that a landowner should be able to produce something, but I may mention that agriculture , like any other undertaking, needs capital. As most of the hon. members know, that is just what our people lack. Without capital no-one can buy cattle , implements or anything necessary. I think that is the main problem . I am taking into consideration and not forgetting the size of arable allotments. That is one of the things which raises a suspicion in the minds of the people. I once visited the southern areas of Nqamakwe and Butterworth and found the people there had large enough allotments to live on , and the crops in those areas were quite encouraging. In certn other areas , however , particularly in Emboland where I come from , people only get small patches which are just sufficient for one to make use of the green mealies. I mention this because it would appear to me that the impression has been created in the department that the people are negligent in the cultivation of their lands . Anyone who cultivates and receives nothing from his soil can be expected to be discouraged. We are also thankful for the co- operatives which have been mentioned . The co- operatives are of great assistance to the people in times of drought, in that they enable them to get things like fertilizer. The unfortunate thing is that it would appear the Transkei is fated to have constant droughts . For that reason the Departments of the Interior and Agriculture should not be discouraged in their assistance to the people. We are witnesses to the assistance the Department is giving to the people in regard to water and to livestock . We have heard that certain stock inspectors will be completing their course this year and that means development for the Transkei . Formerly, these people were trained at Fort Cox and now we realise our own De-
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE :
Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , this department is not doing its work. In regard to the co- operatives , people are given fertilizers during the ploughing season and they are promised that, in the event of hailstorms and other destructive occurrences , people will be given some assistance , but should there be a hailstorm or crop diseases break out and the crop fails , people are forced to pay . Above all this Department of Agriculture does not know its work. Its only aim is to deal with the matter before it at the moment and forget about others affecting the people. In the forests there are snakes which bite people and nothing is done about those snakes . There are also monkeys which destroy the crops and nothing is done about them. (Laughter) People go and get herbs from the forest and , instead of allowing people to go and get herbs to save people who have been bitten by snakes , you do nothing. There are roads over which Even the wagons vehicles cannot be driven. capsize on those roads. There is also a difficulty about gates . When we draw loads of wood from the forests they drop off the wagons and it is difficult to open the gates so that people can pass . You have no aim to assist the people. Farmers who own stock want medicine to administer to their stock, but that you have failed to supply. When we have planted mealies those mealies require attention so that they are not destroyed by cutworms . You do not supply the demonstrator with any powder to protect the mealies as they grow. You must look at the world . The land should be put to the plough just as in Joseph's dream in Egypt , when he told the people to plough their lands . Joseph told the people to plough for a certain period because after that there would be a period of drought. Your department does not aim to plough. You only aim to fence , that is all. You don't care as far as the soil is concerned. We should tell you outright that when work is being performed , you should see how your employees are performing their duties . During the time of General Smuts , he knew that if a man worked, even if he was illiterate that man would obtain his promotion. Our aim and the aim of the country is that ploughing should be done . Cattle , sheep and mealies are the heritage of the people . Speakers have already said that the arable allotments are small . Whilst it is said that the land should be put right, the good soil is taken away and used for afforestation and the people are removed to rocky places . These are the aims of the people . (Interjections) People should be given suitable allotments so that they are in a position to plough and to plant vegetables . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon. member for 186 .
Mqanduli where this has been done.
were robbed of this land which was ours . There were then still a few of us, but at the cessation of hostilities we were crowded into a small area , and there is not enough land for us . Stock depends on grazing and if there is
I want a
reply to that question because he is misleading the House now. MR. NKOSIYANE : I am now dealing with the Transkei as a whole . ( Laughter ) I am not just representing Mqanduli. What I am driving at is that the hon. Minister should see to it that land is ploughed for the people. He must not start with those things which are not needed by the people . There are places where cattle are being fed , but there are places where it is necessary that the cattle should be given feed. Sometimes , in places that are adjacent to one another, one side is dry and the other is wet. Reference has been made to Mbokotwana and you speak about Ncora . You leave the places that need to be watered and you find a place that is in quite good order and you come and make a mess of it. (Laughter) People know which places to plough because the demonstrators were introduced and taught the people . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, you should not make personal references. MR. NKOSIYANE : I was referring to the department as a whole. You have been told about Mbokotwana and Tsitsa, but you want to go to Ncora. (Laughter ) When will you put right those place about which you have been We have fenced in our area. Look at told? Qokolweni in the Mqanduli district. There is nothing right there yet. The fences were broken and the stock is getting lost because you have left everything to be done by the ranger. You have taken all the work from the chiefs . You put the ranger and the demonstrator together, and the chief has been neglected . The ranger is not pulling smoothly with the people. When the fence is damaged the ranger receives no assistance because the ranger started working against the chief. MR. R.E. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in support of the speech by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , but I will only touch on a few points because It is not my much has already been said. nature to repeat what has already been said because that spoils the discussion. I will make a few recommendations as regards the land . The matter of agriculture and livestock is very important because it is the backbone of a nation and it is a matter which requires land . We have hardships resulting from the shortage of land, so much so that there is overcrowding in the rural areas . Adjoining our areas we have farms called Nkondwane and Ntlambe . These farms are immediately behind the dwelling places of the residents which makes the lives of the residents a hard one , because the stock belonging to the residents trespasses on these farms which have damaged fences , and the owners of the stock have to pay high fees when their stock has been seized. These are
no grazing how are you going to plough ? We also appeal to your department in regard to water. There is a shortage of water for both man and beast, and should we experience the same drought during the next two seasons there will not be enough water even for drinking purposes . There are districts where residents have to travel over half a mile to get water. We wonder if you could not help us so that we should repair existing dams and construct others so that any rain that comes may be collected . During rainy seasons the soil is washed away into the dams and also from the drains leading into the dams . We also ask for more assistance from agricultural officers during these times of drought because they are the people who have assisted us in the past. They know what must be planted during any one season. There is also · a complaint about the ploughing season when we used tractors and the hardship placed on people in regard to the amount they had to pay. Some people had to pay double . We would like your department to investigate this matter because we know it is something not known by your officials , so that relations may not be terminated between us and the people who helped us because the possibility of our being able to plough without tractors is remote , because poverty is gaining momentum as a result ofthese droughts , as well as the lack of employment resulting in our people taking contracts to work elsewhere . We are thankful to hear we will now be able to get good milk-cows . We know that milk is the enemy of all diseases , because even if one has swallowed poison one is advised to drink milk. I will now touch on the disease mentioned, namely, red-water. Usually this disease is prevalent along the coast and not inland, but it is as bad as the drought as far as livestock is concerned . I wonder if the department could not do something about this , just as it does in times of drought ? As far as the famine is concerned , it is not so serious along the coast because there is always some green vegetation there. We ask for assistance in all these matters and we rely on you. I thank you for the opportunity I have been given.
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make certain requests to the hon. Minister . I will not touch upon promises he made last session which he has not fulfilled . It is stated that 1970 is Water Year. We do not know how water can be preserved at places where there is no water. I wish to make a request in connection with water and will lay emphasis on Emjanyana Location No. 7 , where water is found a long way from that location. People wanting water travel three miles to get to Emgwali stream . All the other streams have dried up . I made a certain request to your predecessor and I also made the same request to you, and I am repeating that request today. In that location there is a spot where water is available . Could not the department put up a windmill there ? I told your predecessor that five children died at our
poor people living in rural areas without any employment. We appeal to the Chief Minister's Department that we get these farms between the Kentani and Butterworth districts because these farms are part of our land which was taken away from us during the Ngcayicibi wars . We 187.
taries behind the door become the Ministers . After five years you should be the Ministers .
place and the doctor diagonosed that it was This year it was through drinking bad water. compulsory that some school children should go and fetch water at the Emgwali stream and they had to go two and a half miles , because the people who are next to the school have not enough to spare to give the children. There is a river which passes Taleni and joins Emgwali River . It is our request that you should sympathize with us by laying a waterpipe if That is our you cannot fix up a windmill. request. Let me pass on to another matter. There is a common complaint in Engcobo as well as all over the Transkei . The complaint
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the first point I have noticed is that the hon. members of the Opposition want quantity and not quality. That is just the point of disagreement between us . They want land which they can do nothing about. The hon. Mr. Jafta suggested that some method be adopted in regard to the use of the land . He quoted Russia where the land belongs to the State and not to the individual. Would he agree to the division of land into three portions · a full economic unit, a half economic unit and the rest to the ordinary users of the land? Would he agree if, in planning , a person is given, say, ten morgen cultivated for the use of the residents ? Is he suggesting that the whole system of inheritance should be done away with , or does he suggest that that land should be given to someone else who can make better use of it? Would the hon. member agree to a method whereby a resident in the location would use a medicine which he prefers ? Would he agree to an area buying its own medicine for gall - sickness and paying as a community? Are you suggesting that along the coast where there is this particular tick the people there should buy this dip? If you are suggesting that, we agree. Another point raised was whether there were industries for products such as fruit and wheat. Is the hon. member agreeing to the suggestion of the Government that locations should be rehabilitated so that these things should be grown? He also complained that in the rural areas although a man is a landowner he depends on the rest of the residents to plough that land. Why as a member of the Legislative Assembly does he not speak to the people, particularly in those areas which have not been rehabilitated? There are areas such as Peddie where there
is that the department has taken away the vans from the agricultural officers and given them motorcycles instead. Some of them have ruined their health because they now use motorcycles instead of vans . It would have been better if you had given them motorcycles first and then vans . We request the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to take steps to train agricultural officers so that they should show the people correct ploughing methods , because people now are not willing to accept these officers as all they do is preach fencing instead of showing people how to plough. We ask the hon. Minister to instruct the agricultural officers to collect all the farmers in the different locations so that fertilizers could be provided on a subsidy basis in order to suit the pocket of the poor farmer. Many people lost cattle during this drought. We therefore ask that tractors be taken out to the people so that the people should receive assistance with their ploughing. It must not be said that tractors are not available to those who have not accepted rehabilitation. I would like you to reply to this question : As you have promised us bulls and cows , have you now got these bulls and cows and , also , whether those who have fenced and those who have not fenced will pay the same amount for these animals ? In some of the areas there is this complaint from sheep- owners, that they are paid very little for their wool. We request that a centre be established where wool can be collected . I want you to answer this questio : As n thousa o cattle have died , what provisi ons nds f have you made for the hides which are taken c i I ? c 3 a s t orrect away from the owners t 5 ents have been given to to say that instruc ti re those people who havoensaccept e o hab?iliItat io f han to keep only two cows and foud t r xen is so , what can be done with six animal if s you have to plough three lands ? This is another matte I want to place before you , that when a r perso desire to buy cattle , your departm n s en that person first to go and buy thte requir es stock before the issue of a permit . He should issue the permit first so that the buyer can go and buy the stock . The fear is that should at one he go withou a permit your predec ess t time just cut down on the issue of oprermits . One man suffere and he could not get the money d back which he had paid for the purchas of the anima . It is our wish that you makeenote of l w o this side of the House all the remar ks e n ac have made , and also the hon . membe rs uross the floor . You must ask the White me n nder to leave you alone whom you are control le you know how the to do these matter , becd a u s e s Black people live . You must not let the Secre-
are summer rains, but where they grow winter crops such as wheat and peas . There are no fenced areas in Peddie , but the stock is looked after and herded and you do not see any stock on the lands in winter. That means that these people are not, after all , superior to us mentally but they are superior in commerce , because they sell a bag of peas for as much as R20 as compared to your one and only bag of mealies which you will sell for less than R5 in the Transkei. In regard to the point raised by the hon. member in connection with maize , during his next visit to Tsolo he should notice carefully what is grown on these demonstration plots in Tsolo. That is now a full economic unit, or a half. Next time you plant , don't put only two grains in one hole. You must double them up to four, as the first grain has to cope with the drought which has been mentioned , the second with the cutworm , and the third grain with the stalk-borer . The fourth grain will be yours . We now come to the point raised by the hon. member in regard to poultry. Go and see Mr. Yako in the location and see what profit he gets from 40 fowls in his pen. I will advise you to try a run as big as this house here , and see how much profit you will make. After making his fowl-run he should now invite an inspector. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE :
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Mr. Chairman, on
To show these things are Dalindyebo area. done to please the Republican Government, we were informed here that as people had lost their cattle through the drought, they would be assisted by being provided with tractors for ploughing purposes. In this Blue Book you will not find anything recorded that only those who had accepted rehabilitation would receive that assistance . Even when I wrote a letter to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , as well as to the Secretary, inquiring whether the magistrate had not received instructions from them to the effect that ploughing would only be done for those who had accepted rehabilitation , but not to those who were resident in unrehabilitated areas , I did not receive a reply from either of them. People outside here are afraid because it is said their goods will be attached if they do not pay for the assistance they received during the 1968/1969 ploughing.
a point of order, I would like to know whether we are now in a lecture room. The hon. member is giving us the lectures he received at school. He has forgotten we are in parliament. CHIEF JUMBA: Let us come now to the point of soil erosion. I am quoting now from the policy speech : " This matter is so important that the time is ripe for the Government to take drastic action in cases where complete destruction threatens and where the people do not appreciate the urgency to save what remains to be saved . " MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I refer to the policy speech by the hon. Minister , I wish to make certain remarks in connection with the statement made by the hon. Mr. Mapassa . I was surprised when he went back to the war , saying that he wanted those Ntlambe farms as he belongs to the Tshawe clan. I expected him to make a request that their Parmount Chief of the Gcalekas should acquire a farm . If he is behind the times , I am not a dreamer to think that can happen. Let me turn to the speech by the hon. Minister. I was surprised to find out that the Minister only aims at pleasing the Republican Government . On page 4 of the policy speech he says : "If we do not take strong action we will betray the trust reposed in us by the Republican Government. " His aim as he is a Minister has no intention to give support and sustenance to the people of the Transkei , but merely to please and satisfy the Republican Government. It became clear and vivid that during the severe drought the hon. Minister , instead of taking steps to provide means for water to be made available , started fencing the people in and he thought that the owners of the land would respect that fence . Whilst they were away at work he at the same time betrayed their interests by fencing in their land . They opposed it and when they were away their wives were told they should go and work at the dams and drifts , and there they were collected and asked to accept fencing while their husbands were away. In one area in the Dalindyebo region the fences were broken down when some young men came home. What you now hear is something that was said by the Cabinet. You said the fence had been broken down by the Paramount Chief and myself. (Laughter) During October the . Paramount Chief and myself were called. I was named by my own name and after a certain meeting we were informed that the fence was broken and the Cabinet was going to take action . I am pleased to say that the White officers present were satisfied with our explanation when we told them that when that meeting was held this fence had already been broken down. We were told that when we speak about fencing we must be positive and not negative , although people were told they were not forced to accept rehabilitation, but we say it is the members of the Government who are negative when they speak about fencing to people. To show it is not we who are negative , a letter was read by the hon. Chief Majeke and in that letter it was said that the fence would be removed, yet they also say that steps will be taken for the breaking down of the fence in
MR. N.L. MADUBELA : I want only to remind you, my dear member for Umtata .... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : A member can only stand up on a point of order . Is there anything out of order? When the hon. the Leader MR. MNYANI : of the Opposition requested that these accounts should be written off the hon. the Chief Minister said a thing of that nature has never been done. In the Financial Mail of the 24th March, 1968, it was stated that European farmers were in debt because of the drought and that about R280,000 had been written off in regard to deserving cases . As was stated by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, some people only signed as witnesses that the widows would pay the money . CHIEF M.A.B. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. Minister and I am thankful to note that the Government is keeping the water shortage under observation . I would be please , Mr. Chairman, if, in considering this point, the interest of both those who have accepted rehabilitation and those who have not will be considered . As there is a drought there is also a scarcity of seed and we ask the Government if at all possible to see that there should be centres in the districts where people will be able to buy good seed . Good seed is not easily available to people and when they get seed from the traders the traders demand high prices for it. Only the wealthy can buy the seed . We would also ask the Government to see that poles are sold in the districts at the same price as we get them from Vulindlela , because it is difficult to get This will stop people poles in the district. from stealing poles from the forests . I also request the department to encourage people to plant trees at their homesteads . If you travel towards Butterworth from Umtata you will find many areas where there is not a single tree where people can get shade . If we have no trees in the Transkei I am sure this drought will continue, because trees attract rain. Only yesterday we left the Assembly with rain pouring, but when we got to the location the sun 189.
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have a telegram here which comes from the magistrate of Bizana, reading as follows : -
was shining because there are no trees there . (Laughter) We appeal to this department to see that the forests sell young trees to the Trees will not only encourage the rain people. but also beautify the country. The hon. member for Qumbu complains that people have only a small portion of land to cultivate and that land does not belong to them. I wonder how much people reap from these small lands? You find one person cultivating four morgen of land and reaping only four bags of maize , which takes us to the point raised by the hon. member for Umtata that people want more land instead of making the best use of their small lands . There is a question which has been posed by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to which there has been no reply. This question was also put by the hon. the Chief Minister . This quesion is whether it will not be advisable to take away land privileges from those people who do not use the land properly. I do not know what the hon. members across the floor thing about this question which they have not answered . I will not answer the question, but I suggest that it be referred to the people so that it may be understood whether we use the land properly. I would like the next speaker to say what they have in mind about this question. The time is ripe for us to use the land properly. This question We would like your opinion . should have been replied to when it was asked by the hon. the Chief Minister in his policy speech. You say you are the only representatives of the people , now answer this question. (Laughter)
"Chief Calara Mditshwa under medical treatment till June . Leave forms wait approval regional authority. Accept apoligies , delay regretted . Letter following. " Mr. Chairman , when it comes to the item on motions I will move a motion that this member of Parliament be excused for being absent because he may be absent for the whole period of this session. NOTICE OF AMENDMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to give notice that when clause 1 of the Transkei Appropriation Bill is dealt with in committee I will propose an amendment, namely:"That the words 'five hundred and eleven ' be substituted for the words 'two hundred and sixty-one '. " LEAVE OF ABSENCE : CHIEF C. MOITSHWA THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the rules of this House be waived in order that I may dispose of this motion now in connection with the illness of the hon. member for Bizana , if the House agrees.
The debate was adjourned .
Agreed to. House Resumed The
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that this House excuses the hon. member for Bizana , Chief Calara Mditshwa for having absented himself during the whole of this session of the Legislative Assembly, in order that his absence should not affect his membership of the Assembly.
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 14th May, 1970 . THURSDAY , 14th MAY , 1970 Prayers were read .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, whilst I do not share the rather sombre thought that the hon. member will not recover during this session of the Assembly, I second the motion.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
Agreed to. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, I am really disgusted at what the members are doing as they seem to have no regard for punctuality . If this continues I shall ask
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I move that the House go into committee .
the Secretary of the House to call the roll. I have another announcement to make : There will be a film show in the auditorium at Abrahamskraal this afternoon at 5 p.m. at which films showing terrorist weapons and the combating of terrorism will be screened . All members are invited . Refreshments will be served . The bus will leave from the front of
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Isecond .
Agreed to. House in Committee
the Assembly at 5 p.m. this evening, and will bring members hom after the show.
The debate on Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry was resumed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, unfortunately I was absent when the time for announcements came and I ask leave to make certain announcements .
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish first to thank the hon. the Minister of Agriculture because bulls and cows 190 .
of good breed will be sold on a rand for rand That shows it is their desire that our basis . stock should be improved .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is not by the Government. It is only advice to regional authorities to do so.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Listen , I have since been informed that unrehabilitated areas will not get this opportunity.
MR. MAJIJA : In hard times the Government should not advise people to introduce such matters . People find difficulty in paying the present taxes they have to pay . People here in the Transkei have been raided for not paying taxes . The people are starving and this Go-
MR. MAJIJA: I cannot say whether the hon. the Chief Minister has been scolded because he made this gesture . Anything that has been said by the hon. the Chief Minister we think is decided upon by the Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER : planned.
vernment should stop advising an increase in the taxes . As far as the dipping of cattle is concerned, we request that the cattle should not be driven to the dipping tanks to be dipped , but that stock - owners should produce stock cards to the dipping foremen. It has already been noticed that the driving of these cattle is another cause of soil erosion. If we continually drive these cattle are we making an attempt to preserve our soil? Near the dipping tanks you find dongas caused by the cattle . (Interjections ) One hon. member for Ngqeleni says I should speak only on behalf of my own location . Many locations desire that cattle should not be dipped during winter . I am surprised that this hon. member should say what he did , because during the election campaign one of them told the people at our place that he was surprised they were still dipping during winter . We shall be grateful to you, hon. Mr. Minister, if we could obtain young gumtrees from the plantations in order to plant them at our homesteads . Much has been said about the importance of trees at our kraals for the protection of houses and for shade . The roots also help to stop soil erosion. It would be a good thing if people could be given extra land next to their kraal sites where they could plant trees . As far as fencing is concerned, there is something I do not really understand . Your officers usually tell people to remove their homes from where they were to some new place. After these people have established their kraals in the new place allotted to them , another officer comes and tells them this is not a suitable site for kraal sites and the kraals should be moved to some other spot. Why should the people be subjected to such expense instead of having the officers in your department knowing their planning well ? Some people are old and disabled and cannot be expected to put up new homes .
Have your areas
MR. MAJIJA : If he has now changed from what he stated , that means he knows nothing about government . Those people who have not fenced in their areas are taxpayers who are entitled to these rights . THE CHIEF MINISTER : from reclaiming their lands?
What stops them
MR. MAJIJA : The trouble is to see the counterparts of those people in the unrehabilitated areas purchasing this stock at a subsidy. The hon. the Chief Minister stated that those in unrehabilitated and those in rehabilitated areas would receive the same opportunity to purchase stock, and I wish this department would publish in its magazine " Umcebisi Womlimi Nomfuyi " the prices for this stock so that the farmers may know. I am very sorry that the hon. Minister made no reference to what was mentioned previously in regard to artificial insemination. We would like to know how far that scheme has been put into effect by the Government. I have been asked by Mkontlo location in the unrehabilitated area to make this request: In that area , before self- rule was granted to us a borehole had already been started and when the windmill was about to be erected , contouring of allotments was introduced at the same time . The Department of Agriculture failed to advise people that the lands were to be contoured and people only saw some machinery on their arable allotments . As the people took fright they then armed themselves to go and drive away those people , and as a result the windmill was not erected. The people at Mkontlo location ask that the Government should assist them by erecting the windmill. The nearest river to this locality is the Xuka River, which is about two miles from them and the Bashee is about three miles away. Just think of a woman who has to get water from those rivers ! I want now to deal with the question of land transfers .
CHIEF M.H. NGCONGOLO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak on the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture , and I will deal with land . Land is the It is our bank , most important thing to us. because we have no money. Our wealth lies in the soil. Hon. members have spoken at great length, criticizing the hon. Minister in regard to the land and I will appeal to the hon. members to try to teach people outside about the livelihood found in the soil and to stop criticizing the Minister and his department . To pass on, certain remarks have been made about rehabilitation by members who know nothing about it. Rehabilitation is a good thing for the people as well as for the stock . I want to make it quite clear to the hon. members that rehabilitation measures are very important to us because today we are able to give our children education as Gone are the a result of these measures .
That is a matter THE CHIEF MINISTER : for the Department of the Interior . MR. MAJIJA : I understand that transfers are dealt with by the Department of the Interior . Lands are forfeited by people although they are not served with notices of forfeiture. Turning to the proposed taxation in regard to horses, goats and sheep ...
191 .
days when the children had to herd stock in cold weather, yet people still criticize. That is the reason why the children are photographed by the tourists at the roadside -I because they I am speaking as a man are not at school. whose area has been rehabilitated. One hon. member attacked the rangers in the rural areas . I advise him to keep quiet if he doesn't know anything about a situation , because both the headman and the ranger have instructions given If the to them by the agricultural officer. headman does not want to listen to the ranger he will have to go to the chief and then the agricultural officer will report to the DepartLet us go out and tell ment of Agriculture . the people what is required of them. Another
to tell them about the co-operative societies through which the Government assists the people . They get all their requirements free of charge. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I see we are now talking about arable allotments , and they are not ploughing the land well . If you will turn to page 27 of the Estimates and look at the column "Agricultural Officers , Grade 1" you will see there is a scale reflected showing the increments . I do not know whether you calculated how long it takes a person to get to the top notch. When I calculated this , taking it as my homework, I found it will take ten years before a person gets to the top notch, which means that if a person starts when he has attained the age of 50 years he can only succeed in getting to the top notch after he has been pensioned . This is the complaint when you speak of parallel or separate development, that it only takes a White man three years to get to the top notch. With reference to the " Other Staff" mentioned , you do not show the scale of pay. I think this probably refers to those labourers in the forests who have no fixed scale . I shall be pleased if you will reply and tell us why there is nothing reflected in that column against that heading. Again, in your department you have stock inspectors who use vehicles. These officers complain that when they use their own vehicles they receive no allowances and yet in other departments an officer using his own vehicle is entitled to an allowance . The aim is that these officers should only use horses for their transport where they get some subsistence , but during such a drought where will they get horses ? Further , if he has to travel a long distance to a dipping tank he must also carry feed for his horse because round the dipping tank there is nothing for the horse to feed on. These officers want to know why they should not receive the same treatment as officers in other departments . You have a number of demonstrators in your department and all servants of the Government are usually paid a bonus at the end of April , but these men complain they have never been paid any bonus . Again, in regard to those people who were to carry out some experiment in agriculture , they were to be supplied with seed and fertilizer free of charge . I do not say this is not being done in your department , but there are certain agricultural officers who only give these things to their friends. Before my time has expired there is a question to which this side of the House has been asked to reply, but that side should also give a reply to that question . The question is : What should be done to those people who have lands but who do not use them beneficially? Firstly, if there is one member who is not present here now whilst we are discussing this question , his land should be taken away from him. (Laughter) On the other hand , it amounts to the fact that your department has no check upon your agricultural staff. We find that all these agricultural officers have their neckties on and we do not know what they want with ties on in arable lands . During Bunga times we never experienced a drought such as this one . This scarcity is caused by the fact that these agricultural officers wear neckties .
hon. member mentioned forest roads and sledges He also said the capsizing on these roads . department should fight cutworm . If a person is ignorant, he should not say anything but should just sit down. In connection with what he says about the roads in the forests , I want to tell him that sledges are no longer used to do the carting, but wagons are used today. They also talk about famine , whereas it is they themselves who do not teach the people how to make their I do not know whether the own livelihood. department is expected to go and plough for the people so that they may not suffer from The department has told people how famine . to live . Water has also been mentioned and I am really sorry for members who are short of water. I make bold to say that the department suggested they should apply for windmills , and I want to say to those members who say they represent the people that they should ask for water on behalf of the people . In my area water is to be found in close proximity to the rural areas , because whenever the people want water I approach an agricultural officer and water is brought. I do not know what it is you want from the Minister. Mention has also been made of discrimination in regard to tractors . That is not true. The Government has placed them at the disposal of both those who have accepted rehabilitation and those who have not. I cannot see how the blame can be placed at the door of the department by those who failed to get the use of these tractors . There has also been an attack on soil reclamation. Soil reclamation is the responsibility of the people living in that particular area. My advice to the Opposition members is to give the people proper advice. Another hon. member mentioned bulls and wanted to know the prices of the bulls. As one of those who has bought these bulls I can tell the hon. member we pay a fair price for these bulls because we have agricultural officers to tell us the price of these animals and in turn we tell our people . He also mentioned the fodder scheme for stock. When the Government assisted people by giving them this feed, some of them started burning it and I wonder how their cattle are going to survive . You will find that these areas which have not accepted rehabilitation are just bare veld because the cattle in these areas just roam about. These areas are different from those which have been rehabilitated because in the • rehabilitated areas we know how to arrange grazing camps . One hon. member complained they do not get any seed or fertilizer. I want 192.
nurses. We are also asking the Government to see to it that these people close to the factories are given land so that they can grow tea to sell to the factory. By so doing they will be co-operating with the efforts of the Government to see that people do not go away to work. Again, in Eastern Pondoland there is quite a lot of wealth which we are not aware of, or of which we are not making use. I am referring now particularly to the question of tourists . There is quite a lot of money which goes into the Transkei Treasury. They could arrange a place for tourists in Eastern Pondoland. The Assembly has made suggestions that the district of Port St. John's be made a Bantu area. Port St. John's district is not properly placed in history. One White man says this area of 25 square miles was given to the White people by Chief Nqwiliso, but how could Chief Nqwiliso dispose of land supervised by the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland? I ask the Government to see to it that Port St. John's is one of those places which could be developed to encourage tourism . We can go on talking about this but there are times when nothing a man can say is more powerful than saying nothing.
(Laughter) These officers seem to preach only about fencing and Zenzele meetings . Even these Zenzele meetings are not stable because whenever they have appointed officers you find matters are being handled by officers who are not at the meetings . If my information is correct , you have an agricultural officer who was transferred from the Ciskei to the Transkei and he is stationed in one of the Transkei regions . He is said to be receiving a territorial allowance estimated at between R10 and R20 . My question is : This man originally was a Transkeian and he applied to be transferred to the Transkei to be nearer his home. How is it he is paid a territorial allowance? Another matter which should be taken note of is the treatment received by people in these rehabilitated areas , as mentioned by the hon. Mr. Majija. I can quote you Beechamwood , Willowvale , where people established their kraals on the instructions of one officer , and later another officer instructed them to move from there and erect their kraals elsewhere. Even if I have at times should try to correct me when y gone wrong,, you quo you reply. MR. S.K. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think quite a lote has been said about agriculture and I do not think it is necessary for anyone to speak at length. Human nature is an obstacle in so far as this agriculture is concerned , because human nature tends to fear anything that is new. No matter how good it be, as long as it is new people look upon it with suspicion. This fear, by the way, breeds inferiority complex, shyness and oversensitivity . It has been said that agriculture is the basis of our life in the Transkei . Quite a lot of money - much more than previously is now obtainable from the Department of Agriculture and Forestry from forestry. As a result of the efforts of the Department of Agriculture innumerable people have now found employment in the tea and coffee project at Lambasi . Very shortly 800 lbs . will be produced day . As I speak today, another factory at Lambasi is going up. Things cannot go as fast as some hon. members of the House seem to wish. (Interjections ) All we are now requesting the Government to do is to nurse the many hundreds of people who work at those places . We request the Government to see to it that factories are erected because we have a great deal of raw material in Pondoland. Guavas and granadillas are fruits which grow wild in the forests . If the Government will consider the raw material in that area a third or fourth factory could spring up in that area. A lot of fish are caught by White, Black and Coloured people in that area. We appeal to the Government to put up another factory so that this raw material should be made use of. As I have already said, we request the Government to look after the labourers at these factories at Lambasi . These people start for work at 5 a.m. , start work at 7 and return to their homes at 6 in the evening. We also request the Government to see to it that there is a clinic close by, so that instead of going to the doctor they might get injections , if necessary, from these clinics . If there is a clinic next to where they live and there are nurses there, they can be attended to by those
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , one would like to welcome some of the innovations and improvements contemplated by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. We are happy to note that the department itself is not very happy about its field personnel , and if we can stress this point more than it has been stressed , we would say that the wages paid to these men have no return at all . They are a law unto themselves ; they will say things that negate the smooth implementation of agricultural schemes ; their reports to head office are not worth the paper they are written on, because in my view these are falsifications as these men do not do the work allotted to them. It is hoped that the department will certainly be more selective and consider it wiser to have a few effective field officers than a number of officers who are going to bedevil some of the good schemes this department has in force. Our main concern is how much more can we get out of the land which we have. How are we going to change the attitude of the peasant farmer towards his plot of land? How are we going to make him understand that his land is available for agricultural use for twelve months of the year, rather than for six months of the year? How are we going to make him realise that his allotment is more valuable than gold itself? I had thought that afterthe remarks made by the hon. the Chief Minister in his policy speech there would be some concrete and positive suggestions which would be thrown to this House by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . An observation such as was made in that speech to the effect that " in spite of all our extension services and our preaching and propagating of improved agricultural methods over many years, it is a fact that the people of the Transkei have not yet risen above a subsistence economy" - that should surely be the concern of the Department of Agriculture , for this means that in spite of our agricultural schemes , in spite of our soil conservation schemes , in spite of our pedigree stock, in spite of everything that has
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should become the responsibility of the tribe, and the tribal authority, together with the headman and the chief, should make it their concern to look after these people. How many tribal authorities or how many chiefs or headmen have ever contemplated setting up an oldage home within their own administrative areas ? Then the land which is allotted to these old people can be ploughed by the tribe communally to feed the people in those old-age homes , then no land will lie fallow, no land will be improperly ploughed because the allottee is unable to exThen again, Sir, I am ploit it productively. concerned over the large irrigation schemes contemplated by this department. It seems to me so futile that two, four or five morgen of land should be invested in a large irrigation scheme to irrigate small uneconomic allotments . To me it appears that with all the water in the world, if the acreage under cultivation is small you cannot produce sufficient to make it possible for the family to live above subsistence level . My submission is that irrigation schemes should be constructed where the land below the irrigation scheme could be cut up into big allotments or big farms . Inthis way the land produce in the Transkei will be increased in certain specific areas where you have these farms getting large- scale benefit from these big irrigation schemes which the department contemplates. Then I want to know if the Transkei has been cut up into agricultural zones.
been done there has been no increased agricultural productivity in the Transkei : In my view, I think the basic cause for this failure can be traced to the system of land tenure in the Transkei. In my view, the chiefs should have nothing to do with the land in the Transkei . I know that the chiefs are going to rise in arms against me because they seek to be lauded so that people can get land from the chiefs. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please.
MR. GUZANA: But what is the result of having the land allotted by the chief through the tribal authority? I know I am dealing with a sensitive subject and I see some of the chiefs getting restive about the matter. CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I wish to inform the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Aren't you raising a point of order? CHIEF MATANZIMA : It is a point of order. It is that the chiefs have got nothing to do with the allotment of land . It is the headman who does so, but now the people have got to appeal to the chiefs if the headmen are unfair. MR. GUZANA : And if the chief is unfair, where does the poor man appeal to? (Laughter) So my point is that the land should be allotted in some form other than that by which it is allotted at the present moment. I believe if the Department of the Interior were solely responsible for allotting lands then we would have lands allotted where the soil is suitable for agriculture . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
CHIEFTAINESS N. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to comment on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . It is quite clear that this department is the mainstay of the country. In regard to the suggestion by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that the land be controlled by the Department of the Interior so that it could be sold to people who can use it beneficially, we think even before the hon. Minister has replied that that scheme would not work , because it would mean that those people who have no money and cannot afford to buy land would be landless . I think the present system of land tenure for which we pay quitrent is all right. I am thinking of people who have farms , and particularly of a farm on the way to East How does that farm look today, now London. that this man owns it? Who can query him if he does not farm properly, as it is now his in any case? The hon. Minister has mentioned that there is an amount set aside for the eradication of noxious weeds . There is a weed which is known as Lantana which we have had instructions from the agricultural officers to destroy . There is a lot of this weed in my area and people have got into the habit of fencing their lands with this weed because it becomes stock-proof. We were told to destroy this but it is a difficult job because the more you cut it and burn it down, the more you encourage the growth. We wonder if there are no experts who could suggest some way of destroying this plant after it has been cut down, perhaps by the use of chemical substances. Yesterday a hon. member from Willowvale suggested that steps should be taken to encourage people to grow trees at their homesteads or kraal sites. I for one would not like these trees merely
Order, please .
MR. GUZANA : Developing from that, the man who has a land allotted to him would have the opportunity to buy the land and have ownership of the land. It would mean , in effect , that the man must use his piece of land intensively as he has not the money to keep on buying other allotments , and we ask the Government and this department in particular to investigate the possibility of removing the control of land allotments from where it is vested to some other body which will exercise this power independent of partial partisanship, independent of a hope for something to be given for land allotted , independent of an indiscriminate allotment with no regard to the productivity of the land. The question has been asked : Shall we continue to give land to people who are unable to work the land? (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . All members are entitled to their time for speaking .
MR. GUZANA: Now, this problem of people who are unable to work the land owning the land can be solved at the present moment, and under the present system of land tenure, by the chiefs and headmen themselves. The aged 194.
to be used as a windbreak, but I wonder if the department could not see to it that the people could obtain fruit trees to use as nurseries from which they will buy trees at low cost. Agricultural officers could select suitable places for these nurseries and this would also create employment opportunities for our people . This fruit would help us in combatting tuberculosis. Fruit is also helpful in preventing this disease which seems to be prevalent - high blood pressure . Touching on the question of water, we know that preference is given in the matter of water to rehabilitated areas , but we wonder whether the department would not see to it that, even before rehabilitation , areas are planned so that water may be available in residential areas when they are declared. That would reduce the amount paid by the department in the removal of people from one place to another, because the people would then see that the residential area is suitable because it is close to water. In regard to the point raised about the possibility of people not using the land beneficially being deprived of their right to land, I do not know what obtains in other areas but in the area from which I come we resort to the old practice of sharing people. Although this also harbours a certain hardship, it is well known that a Bantu likes to know that even if a thing is not his , he is entitled to it, and it raises fear in some people's minds that if there is this sharing of people the land may be taken away from them. Now, the question is how to induce people to make use of the land and plough properly.
of other authority. During the lunch break I was listening to a broadcast giving us news about agricultural activities in the Adelaide district, where it was indicated among other things that there were penal consequences for any breach of soil conservation regulations , so that whilst a man may own a piece of land he does not own it to misuse it. Sir, I was speaking about agricultural zones in the Transkei where we would have a zone where cereals are grown; zones where fruit is grown mainly; zones where rootcrops are grown, and so on. This does not necessarily mean that other crops cannot be grown, but just as we have the maize triangle in the Orange Free State so should we have areas here concentrating mainly on a particular agricultural crop. This would, of course , entail the study of climatic conditions , the study of the soil and the potentialities of the soil in consideration of the type of crop that could be grown in that area. Now, Sir, I would like to refer to one or two matter-of-fact matters . This side of the House has put the plight of the peasant farmer before the Minister where the peasant farmer, because of the ploughing scheme, has found himself more and more involved in debt to the Government because of the drought . These peasant farmers are not only indebted to the Government, but also to the XDC . Regard being given to the fact that these people have no possible way of paying these bebts to the Government and to the XDC , is it not possible for the Government to consider deserving and destitute cases and forego the amount owing by these people to the Government : I am sure that some of the lazy and lethargic took advantage of your scheme and there is no prospect of them raising crops on their own in order to pay these debts , and therefore their debt will just be a perpetually recurring affair which will not be redeemed at any time in the future. Then there is a matter of sore concern relating to towns which have been zoned Black, where there is a commonage adjacent to the surrounding administrative areas. There is a lot of friction arising between the residents of administrative areas and the VM Bs of these villages as to rights to the commonage. I think your field officers should be briefed on this point so that they speak with one voice to people who are claiming to have a right to graze stock within the commonage. There should not have been any quarrel over this matter but for the fact that these people started thinking 200 years back and saying that the boundary of this village was two miles back and it moved without their noticing it and they are entitled to this ground. Therefore, Sir , I think it will be proper that your men should know something about this matter and speak, as I say, with one voice . Sir, it has been
There is another request resulting from the scheme used last season, of which some people did not avail themselves . People approached the XDC and asked them to plough for them and the XDC said the interest charged would take effect from the 1st May. The people, who are still after all under the department, have asked you to make representations on their behlaf so that this interest should take effect from the 1st July, by which time they will have seen what the crop position is .
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before developing my other points I would like to make comment on what the hon. member for Willowvale said, relating to farm ownership. Her comment was to the effect that where a person owns a farm he is free to do whatever he pleases without anybody having a say in the running of the farm. I am surprised that there should be such an idea in her mind, because even full ownership does not exclude direction from the Government as to how the property owned has to be used . You buy a car and it is your property, but the Provincial Administration requires you to pay a licence fee . The traffic officer stops you on the road and examines your car and declares it unroadworthy. When you build on your plot within a municipal area you have to comply with municipal specifications , so that ownership is not altogether one hundred per cent exclusive
suggested to you that stock, or pedigreed stock , should be made available on a subsidy basis to everyone in the Transkei . The reply from the Government is that this cannot be done except in rehabilitated areas where the residents are There is sold this stock on a subsidy basis . an irresistible argument which the people in unrehabilitated areas place on this issue . They argue that they pay taxes to the Government, that the Government uses this money to buy pedigree stock, that this Government now prefers 195 .
said that before the soil can produce , rehabilitation must take place . If rehabilitation measures have not been accepted we will never succeed in doing anything. People have no proper method of herding their stock, with the result that the stock trespasses on other people's mealie- lands , but if the areas were fenced in they would be able to produce enough for us and for export as well . We are thankful to the department for making tractors available to enable farmers to plough their lands . It is quite clear and obvious that the days are past when we had to use oxen and we ask the department We will be not to discontinue this scheme . able to refund the moneys when the rains come . This system has enabled everyone to plough, even those who had no means to do so. Even though we have been hard hit by the drought the crops were encouraging. If there had been no severe drought we should have been very successful in the Transkei as far as agriculture We also thank the department is concerned. for the irrigation schemes which have been introduced to the Transkei , because water is one of the most important factors for anyone who Without wants to be a successful farmer. water one can do nothing. We are also thankful to the Government for introducing pedigree bulls . In spite of the Opposition's assertion that these bulls are sold only in rehabilitated areas , what can be gained in sending these bulls to those bare plains where they would starve , be attacked by ticks , where no-one would care for them, where they would just collapse from poor condition and die before they have achieved the purpose for which they are meant, namely to improve the livestock of that area? Then only the scrub bulls would remain which would cover the cows and the position would revert to what it was. When these pedigree animals have been bought our stock improves and we ask the department to arrange sales for this stock so that the owners can get fair prices . With the present stock sales the buyers have a tendency to pay low prices for people's stock, and a good breed animal is treated in the same way as scrub , and then one faces the difficulty that we have spent money to improve stock but that improved stock is treated in the same way as scrub stock. We are also thankful to the department for sending agricultural officers to assist us in There is a vaccine which has wool -growing . been supplied so that our stock may be in good condition. We further ask that the agricultural officers should assist not only members of the co-operative societies , but also non-members . The department should also assist in building shearing sheds , even if the sheds have to be shared by two locations , because it is a hardship for people to have to drive their small stock to That forces people to go back far-off places . to their own way of shearing in their huts , which results in unhealthy wool . We want the Government to see that agricultural officers should visit the locations and assist the people in agriculture as well as livestock breeding, because there will only be an improvement in livestock and agriculture if agricultural officers demonstrate to us .
one group of people over another when benefits should be available to all , since all pay taxes to the Government. This practice of preferring rehabilitated areas suggests to the minds of these people that the Government is using this deprivation as leverage to coerce people into accepting rehabilitation . What harm does it do to the Government, to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry , if a man in an unrehabilitated area owns or has bought from the Government a pedigree bull ? Is not this preferential treatment militating against the opportunity of demonstrating to the people in the unrehabilitated areas that better stock means a better yield in milk and a better price on the market? Therefore I think this is a point on which the department could make a revision of its policy. Sooner or later the people in unrehabilitated areas will see the benefit of accepting rehabilitation as a positive step towards greater productivity and improved stock. The speech of the hon. the Chief Minister gave us a vision , and the agricultural aspect of the Transkei economy was stressed almost to the limit. Our ideas on land tenure and agriculture must be reorientated and our thinking geared to the questions and challenges contained in that statement. We have the soil , we have the stock, we have the Department of Agriculture keen to help us . Why should we not change our attitude of mind towards agriculture ? Are we satisfied to continue as just peasant farmers and nothing more ? Are we satisfied to scratch the soil half the year and do nothing about the other half of the year? I think the chiefs and headmen must They must come in with us on this issue. concede the fact that an allottee is entitled to use his land for twelve months . The custom of "buqisa " practice has got to stop. We must feed our stock from the hand with the maize stalks we have cut from the mealie - lands and put in some crops for the winter . The chief or headman should have no prerogative to say when people should start reaping, when people should start ploughing, and it is we who are here who must carry these ideas to the people . We may criticize the Department of Agriculture strenouously, but if we don't put in an effort of our own, what can the Department of Agriculture do? It has a lot to do . It has to look into its projects , but we must also prepare the minds of the peasant farmer to accept the new deal and the new approach to agriculture . We shall be getting worse and worse off by the year if we do not change our attitude to our land and our stock, and instead of calling the Transkei the Garden of South Africa we might have to call it the Colorado of South Afrida . Our fate is in our own hands . Thank you , Mr. Chairman . CHIEF K. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up in support of the speech by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . First of all I must pay tribute to the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he said we must occupy the land beneficially , because every citizen of the Transkei depends on the soil for produce and for money. It would not be necessary for us to go to the Republic for work if we worked our soil satisfactorily , but he should address himself to his colleagues because we on the Government side have long
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder how the members feel about including this amendment 196 .
by the hon. Chief Majeke ?
Transkei and does not go outside to see what is happening elsewhere ) is this : When you have constructed a dam in a certain area it is not right that you should just build it and then leave. There should be at a distance of a hundred yards below the main dam another one , and perhaps another. That would be of assistance when the water overflows the first dam . Again, when perhaps there is a leakage in the main dam the water will collect in the lower ones . If the hon. Minister keeps these points in mind he will succeed in conserving water. Now, the question of feed for stock - you distributed cattle feed in accordance with the severity of the drought in certain locations and I will give Libode as an example . Libode had no feed sent to it. I suggest that this feed should be distributed according to locations because it may well be that conditions differ from location to location. Taking Libode as an example , there are certain locations adjoining the district of Tsolo and those locations were hard hit by the drought and the grass disappeared . Even apart from disease , the cattle died in the locations from lack of grass . Similarly, in the Ngqeleni district I would mention Buntingville Location which was hard hit by the drought. There will perhaps be other locations in the Transkei which have been similarly damaged by the drought and that is why we suggest that locations should be considered , instead of districts , in the distribution of fodder . Finally , Mr. Chairman , don't plant bluegum only in your plantations . We also want wattle for fuel . We know that the gumtrees are used for fencing. We cannot plant those wattle trees at our homesteads today so that we have to go and buy fuel.
Mr. Chairman , we MR. K.M. GUZANA : would crave your indulgence as there are other members of the Opposition who wish to comment on the policy speech by the hon. Minister , not to repeat what has already been said, but to break new ground and , if I may say so without offence, these are responsible members . CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Vote we are dealing with now is very important. Evidence of this is the way in which the hon . members of the TNIP treat you with contempt and treat the hon. the Chief Minister with contempt, and also the Cabinet Ministers , by coming in here after having taken Jabulani. (Laughter and interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please .
CHIEF NDAMASE : First of all, I wish to touch on the matter of rangers . The way in which these rangers work is not quite well defined and often militates against the methods of the headmen of locations . We would like the hon. Minister to say how he is going to put a stop to this dissension between the headmen and the rangers. In the appointment of rangers we just see these rangers being brought into the location when they are unknown either to the people or to the headman of the location. We suggest that rangers should be selected by the people and the headman of the area in which he will work. That will lead to better management of pounds and pound fees . To pass on to the question of water, we should like your motto to be "Water to soil , not soil to water" . By that I mean an effort should be made to try to retain the water and not allow it to go down to the sea. We appreciate your efforts in regard to irrigation schemes such as Lubisi and we note that you want another irrigation scheme at Ncora. Apparently you want to try to please the people who have put you in that position so that you may be returned again next year. (Laughter) While you are busy with these schemes , we would like you to try and see that water in these rivers is used to the best advantage. We should like to see smaller irrigation schemes in connection with all the rivers in the Transkei . That would be much easier because in some places there would be no need for any machinery to be used in those schemes . To give you an example , before your time there was a small irrigation scheme at Nyandeni which worked very well. People from Nyandeni used to come to Umtata to sell their vegetables , but then these agricultural officers abandoned this and started tackling work on the mealie-lands and concentrating on rehabilitation or fencing, and that good work which they started with this irrigation scheme was abandoned . We would like to see you start these schemes on all the rivers of the Transkei . Don't wait until there is a large sum of money before starting with these . In regard to the watering places for stock , and dams , I may say we did see some little improvement in the construction of dams , but my advice to the hon. Minister in connection with the construction of dams for stock (because unfortunately the hon. Minister only stays in the
MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it is a pleasure to me to know that both sides of the House are referring requests to you so that you can see what can be done. It is also a pleasure to note that the speakers want to speak at length when agriculture is discussed, because it means food. From the start I will deal with a very important achievement, namely, the proposed purchase of cows by the Government. I cannot find any reason why this is only being brought up this year, when it is a matter which should have been dealt with long ago. This means we have all been asleep and have now awoken. When a person is born with a small stomach and he grows up eating stamped mealies and what not, when he is an adult he goes back to infancy and wants milk which he got from his mother , which raises the necessity for this adult person to have milk. I am grateful to the Government for these cows and we further suggest that anyone who wishes to buy a cow should be allowed to do so and should be subsidized when he buys a COW . Another important matter is the ploughing scheme for the people. It has been discussed several times here , but I will go back to it because there is something I am thankful for as far as this is concerned - the way that the Government saw to it that the farmers did not cheat the people who were doing the ploughing for them. That is the difference between the Government assistance and that of the XDC which was raised as a complaint by an hon. member. Your prices are fair. I endorse
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operations now. Quite a lot of cattle died this year and even last year many cattle died , and to date there is no solution. It is not because there is a shortage of people who can meet this situation. The only thing is that there is no-one to supervise them. In your policy statement you said you were going to give assistance . Let me give you advice and tell you the cause of the death of our stock. The dipping staff or stock inspectors do not want to use a good dipping solution. If you should
what has been said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that this scheme should not be discontinued , because even as it is the people are going to reap nothing . Let the Government find means , because sometimes a father has to help his son when the son experiences famine . That leads to the question posed as to what should be done with these people who are not making proper use of their lands . I for one know that the reason in the majority of cases is because they have no means with which to plough.
go and visit the White farmers in the Ciskei you will find that they dip their stock when they wish to do so, and when it is necessary, but they use the correct dip to destroy the parasites . Largely in our location we use our own dip by mixing Multi- Ben- Hex and that destroys the ticks . If you take your cattle to the dipping tank one day , the next day you will find That means them covered again with ticks . the people who perform this duty are not diligent. It should be sufficient to dip these cattle only once a month if the correct strength is used, instead of saying that a lot of money should be collected and the number of staff increased . I wish the hon. Minister to note There is a longthis and take this advice . standing complaint in connection with the fences, and it is evident this complaint will always be made and no progress will be achieved. What you find is that, though the fence has been put up, the stock can still get through the fence . Gates are not closed because there are no gates . There are only six strands of wire instead of eight, which means that the fence is incomplete. Again, you will observe that though work is being performed within the fenced area there are still people who are landless . I say so now because I know there are about 240 people who are applying for land in a different location.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear. There are no longer any MR. SIHELE : oxen because of the drought and in those places where tractors have been made available , particularly in Tsomo area, no land is left unIt is all ploughed up . I do not know touched. who is to blame , but I think something has been omitted and that is , to tell the people to plant properlyafter these lands had been ploughed. I think the demonstrators or agricultural officers should do that. I would that we should go back to the old days when the agricultural demonstrators used to be among the people to see that they planted their lands properly. You will then say: Look, the agricultural demonstrator was here and you have not planted your mealie -land properly so you must be deprived of it. We think it is a necessity and we should not think it is no longer necessary to educate the people on agriculture . I pass on to another important matter - the central shows which have been They were there to encourage discontinued . people and make them take a pride in their produce . Since the central show was abolished there is no longer anyone to encourage the people. The people who were successful farmers are there no longer. We want this to be the responsibility of your department, and not that it should be given to someone else , and we want to see this central show here in Umtata . When we talk of agriculture we are talking about our To come now to another point own health. raised by an hon. member in connection with seed and fertilizer , which he said they could not get, these things are available to any member of a co -operative society and the member should see to it that the co- operative does not go bankrupt and that it should refund moneys . We would like to see that these people are ploughing to some purpose because there may be a drought. Another point was raised by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher. He raised the point that agricultural officers are not allowed to form their own associations . I think that is a mistake , or that the information which the hon. member received is not correct. I know I was present when one association was formed. The only condition is that the members should not be less than 60 % to enable the association to be recognized by the Government.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where? MR. MAFUKULA : If you stand up and put the question I will answer it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, we would like to know where that is where there are more than 200 people applying for land . MR. MAFUKULA : Mr. Chairman, I request the hon. Minister to put his question in writing. (Laughter) All those things I have tabulated show that the fencing is not completed . Stock is placed in these grazing camps and you will find that no water is provided there and that brings doubts to those people who have not yet accepted rehabilitation. If you accept my advice it would be a good thing if you would form a committee to go round through all the locations which have been rehabilitated . I think those people are the people who could throw light on what is happening in rehabilitated areas , and that will make you believe what we say and not take it for granted that we are just raising opposition to your progress . This committee would be able to count the number of people who are landless and I think the hon. Minister who wants to know this location will be satisfied. I have people who came to approach
MR. H. MAFUKULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , all that has been said today we said during the last session of this House and I am sorry to say that nothing has materialized to date . Today we beseech the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and we hope our requests will have results . I want to speak about dipping 198.
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the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , a committee from that particular location. They brought these complaints which I now place before the House. As far as their report is concerned, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture did not want to meet them . Please , therefore, appoint a committee to go and investigate this matter. Let us now talk about stock. The hon. Minister stated that there are certain pedigree cattle which will be sold at a subsidy. May I advise the hon. Minister that if it is his intention to introduce improved stock in the Transkei it would be advisable to have certain areas demarcated where this stock will be bred , so that in general the stock in the Transkei will be improved, because if you say we should buy this pedigree stock and allow it to mix with the stock we keep at present it means we will not get any further. If you are going to bring us cows of a good breed so that they are covered by the scrub bulls , rather let us remain with our scrub animals . Mr. Chairman , people in the districts are starving because the production has decreased.
is unable to cope with all the requests for soil conservation schemes." Further on he says a special effort will be made during this year. We look to him to help us , Mr. Chairman. Further, when you refer to the Budget you find that Vote 5 H.5, Land Reclamation Services , for the year 1970/1971 amounts to R796,000 whereas for 1969/1970 it was R819,000 . The amount has therefore been reduced . Now, I will ask him to explain to us how he will fulfil his promise , whereas the money has been so reduced. ( Laughter ) GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Opposition.
MR. MOSHESH : However, as he has made these promises we think he should know how he will manage and we look to him, because as a member of the Government he should not tell lies but tell only the truth. (Laughter ) He has told us the truth that he has failed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I shall now call upon the hon. member, Chief S.S. Majeke , to move his amendment.
MR. S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . I will not speak at length because various matters which I would have referred to have already been discussed. I wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister of Agriculture for having found employment for 10,000 labourers in the Transkei . I also wish to thank him for the sawmills in Umtata, Mount Ayliff and Langeni . I now wish to request the hon. Minister to make such a sawmill at Ramahlokoana where it would be very useful in the establishment of that town, because planks are very expensive. The Government will then have rendered good services for the people of that area . MR. K.M. GUZANA : at Ramahlokɔana?
He is the sub-
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , on account of the illness of Chief Majeke I hereby move his amendment as he has requested me to do. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, would you kindly lead us to the rule applying to the substitution of the mover of the amendment? Mr. Chairman, I am CHIEF NDAMASE : requesting that I should be allowed to carry on, because I have seen this done , even if there is no rule permitting me to do so. I have seen the hon. Ministers doing so.
Where are the forests THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It looks as if there is a special requirement of delegation to be in writing .
MR. MOSHESH : There is no forest in Umtata and the logs will be removed from various plantations . I now wish to refer to soil erosion. Soil erosion is advancing day in, day out, because the demonstrators are no longer available to teach the people how to stop soil erosion. I now appeal to the hon. Minister to reintroduce the old scheme with a view to combatting this soil erosion . One other request which I have to make to the hon. Minister is that he should make fowls available from the School of Agriculture at Tsolo in order to enable people to There are some , but they are buy chickens . very limited in supply and we have to buy chickens from other sources . I now wish to refer to agriculture . In regard to tractors, the Government is not playing its part in the Transkei . It is like a knife which only cuts one cake because all the money is being expended at Butterworth. ( Laughter) How would it be if these tractors were allotted to various regions and not only to Butterworth ? I would also like to be clear on the passage which appears on page 3 of the hon. Minister's policy speech, which reads as follows : " ....soil conservation scheme is improving. The Department finds itself in the position today that it
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In order to facilitate matters , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the rule which requires that to be done in writing to be waived . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to . CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I thank you. I accordingly move that Vote 5, sub- head A , Minister's salary be reduced by R3,200 . I am happy to be able to speak after the last speaker, the hon . member from Matatiele. In fact, he has been very outspoken in that he said he has no confidence in this particular Minister . The hon. Minister has told us that sub-head A is being decreased by the amount of R1,813 , his reason being that they have no suitable officials to take up the vacant posts . This sub-head in respect of the year 1968/1969 was decreased for the same reason, and we do not know why this hon. Minister should not copy the Department of Finance, where appropriate arrangements have been made to see that young 199.
people are trained in order to be able to take up certain posts . It is quite clear, then, that this department will always take people from other departments who are more suitable for the In one of the paragraphs in his policy posts. speech the hon. Minister says the professional and technical consultants ' fees have been reduced by R190,000 , as no new major development schemes will be investigated during the year 1970. This is surprising , because the Transkei is taken as an undeveloped country and he has not taken steps to introduce experts in order to encourage development. In fact, this present Minister is satisfied with the existing conditions of the Transkei. It becomes even more clear that what has been said by the hon. member for Matatiele is correct - that as far as we are concerned there is no Minister in that In his speech, the hon. Minister department. mentions there will be a mobile film unit to intensify efforts to persuade farmers to learn better farming methods and to increase production. I do not know how to describe this department, because the Republic broadcasts lectures daily , from six o'clock in the morning , relating to agriculture . Apart from that, courses are held in the agricultural schools there but in our agricultural school there are no such courses . During the time of the General Council it was a practice for officials to travel right round the Transkei delivering lextures , but today there are very few farmers ' days and some of the people believe there are no farmers ' days . Even with this magazine , "Mfuyi Nomlimi " , one section deals with advertisements and the other with agriculture. Again, there is a scheme for the introduction of improved stock and this department says it is going to assistthe farmers in the purchase of such improved stock. What is generally preached in the Transkei is the breeding of Brown Swiss and other breeds such as Jerseys are never advocated , but the White farmer breeds Frieslands and Jerseys and we should take their example. We have a complaint in this regard , that Frieslands and Jerseys should also be introduced . One hon. member asks what is wrong with the Brown Swiss . The farmer has his preferences and should not be forced to take anything he does not like . With the Brown Swiss , if the hon. Minister reads the South African Farming and Animal Husbandry magazines about cattle , they take a long time in calf.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It is mainly jointed cactus and hakea not all noxious weeds . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : ment, Mr. Chairman.
I second the amend-
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , to answer the question as to why bursaries have not been provided in this department while they have been provided in other departments , it is obvious that the hon. member does not attend regional meetings because there the conditions under which these bursaries are issued have been explained. It is well known that the majority of chiefs ' sons are in a better position than people for whom relief funds are required. Would he not complain if these bursaries are given to the Tsolo School of Agriculture and the School for Sons of Chiefs while there are people who are starving? To touch on the matter of the mobile film unit, I take it that this is going to be done so that we may see things with our own eyes , as we saw the film at Abrahamskraal. The hon. member knows that the majority of us are illiterate and therefore require to see things with our own eyes. Is he suggesting that this small opportunity for people to see things with their own eyes should be done away with? MR. K.M. GUZANA : He never said so. CHIEF JUMBA: He says he listens to the radio broadcasts about agriculture . How many people in the locations have these radios ? Is it not only two out of ten? Is he suggesting that the remaining eight should not be given the opportunity to see this film? According to the hon. member it would appear that we are all being forced to select a certain type of breed that is, the Brown Swiss . According to him he alleges that the Brown Swiss takes a long time to calf. Another hon. member states it takes as long as two years to calf. How often have they had these other breeds , such as the Jersey? I hope my hon. friend has not misjudged the Brown Swiss , because it has its own particular type ofgrazing. I think he comes from a sour -veld area and that is exactly the type of grazing that the Brown He also criticized the making Swiss wants . up of prize-lists for our shows , saying you never see Jerseys or Frieslands listed , but if he examines these prize - lists he will notice that the words " Any other type of breed " are added. Why should he complain about this Brown Swiss , because that item allows him to have it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I would like to ask the hon. member whether the people really want Frieslands and Jerseys , because as far as I am aware these breeds need feeding .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , as far as the agronomy is concerned this department gives very little assistance . The agricultural officers find a difficulty when they have to show people how to plough when contouring The demonstrators fail is being performed . to go and show people how to plough where a land has been contoured , so much so that some of the farmers when they plough their land just go right across the contours . When these farmers plough their land they are careless in breaking the soil and start in the same place next to the contour so that a furrow is created , instead of telling the people that the following season they should begin ploughing their lands
CHIEF NDAMASE : If the hon. the Chief Minister had travelled right through the Transkei and consulted the farmers , and they had told him they all wanted Brown Swiss I would not argue with him . I do not say the Brown Swiss and Afrikanders should not be included . What happens is that when there is a show Frieslands and Jerseys are not included . The secretaries , who are encouraged by your servants , make the entries . You have also stated that an amount is set aside for the destruction of noxious weeds . At one time in my area we requested the magistrate to employ people .
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right from the centre of the land towards the There is a certain demonstration controur. plot in Tsolo where a person is shown how to plough a ten-acre plot beneficially with only two oxen. Why then should there not be demonstration plots in all the localities ?
FRIDAY, 15th MAY, 1970-1
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT
THE CHIEF MINISTER: There are demonstration plots .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I have this announcement to make : I wish to draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that arrangements have been made for a bus to leave the municipal location at 5 a.m. tomorrow to proceed to the funeral of the late Mr. J.D. Moshesh at Matatiele . Will all those who desire to avail themselves of this facility please contact Mr. H. Nolutshungu, member of the Public Service Commission, and note also that the fare will be R3 return.
CHIEF NDAMASE: The hon. the Chief Minister says these demonstration plots do exist , but the demonstration plot in Tsolo is not like the plots to which the hon. Minister refers . They are not ten-acre demonstration plots . I would rather have it this way - that in each of the defferent locations an agricultural officer should be stationed and given a dmonstration plotsoften acres in extent where he will demonstrate ploughing in that ten acres and breed poultry, etc. , so that the people can see what can be achieved. In Port St. John's there was an experiment with several maize cultivers to find out which of the cultivers would produce more, and it was found that the Pondo cultiver produced more than any other maize cultiver in the Transkei . Strange to say, Mr. Chairman, that Pondo cultiver has never been preached by the department. What they have been preaching is the hybrid cultivers out of which you cannot select seed to plant the following year because they say the following yield deteriorates . It is clear, then, that this hybrid is just for purposes of gaining some money . I do not know which people from upcountry produce this hybrid seed. That means that your department does not know what it is about. Another matter that is of concern to people is the sale of cattle . Some people complain about the corporation known as Vleis Sentraal and they say the tendency is to make this an agent between the Transkei speculator and the Meat Control Board , because the speculator meets a difficulty in removing stock purchased in the Transkei and selling it direct to the Meat Control Board . They should sell to Vleis Sentraal , which has fixed prices which cannot be exceeded. One speculator buys a beast from another for R75 because he is compelled to do so, otherwise he must sell to Vleis Sentraal for R70 . It is therefore clear that the speculator pays a high price when speculating and sells at a low price to Vleis Sentraal, because Vleis Sentraal has fixed prices which cannot be exceeded , and therefore the Transkei farmer who is the seller loses. Another matter that baffles people when they shear their wool at the shearing centres is that the wool is sent and cheques are received. Would it not be easier for the people if your department takes over the cheques and cashes them and pays the seller? When people come to the towns they do not even know where the banks are and so they go to the shops and are charged commission.
APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House go into committee. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I second. House in Committee
The debate on Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was resumed . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will not be lengthy but I wish to make a few remarks in connection with soil reclamation. What surprises us is that before Act No. 10 of 1966 was promulgated , soil reclamation was controlled under Proclamation 116 of 1949. There were some other proclamations connected with soil reclamation promulgated by the Republican Government, but all those proclamations were repealed . That proclamation provided for the demarcation or survey of land to indicate where woodlots , residential areas and arable allotments should be established, but in this Act there is no provision for the ad hoc committee to see to the planning of locations , and that is of great importance and assistance in ensuring that people have been sited in suitable areas as well as where arable allotments and grazing areas should be established. Now the planning of locations is left entirely in the hands of the agricultural officer . Even when the location has been planned , the control of the grazing areas and other areas is entirely in the hands of this one officer. We would not say anything if the magistrate and the tribal authority were in control but obtained all information and other requirements from the location committee. Let us turn to fencing . During the process of fencing, arable areas as well as residential and grazing areas are being allocated whilst the fencing is being carried on. The former procedure was that after all these areas had been set aside then only the fencing was proceeded with. In that respect it was seen to that people had been allocated their arable allotments , but now
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
The
COMMITTEE OF
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 15th May, 1970 .
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would say it does not matter if a member repeats himself on one subject, but I appeal to you now to allow the hon. Minister to reply to the points which have been raised twenty times by these members .
when the people have not acquired kraal sites or land allotments , these officers just tell the people they can go to labour centres to work. The people will then go to sell their labour cheaply in the farms and elsewhere where employment is available. We would be surprised if that were the intention of rehabilitation, because we thought rehabilitation was intended to improve conditions for the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER : this happen?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: the hon. Minister to reply.
I shall now ask
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will try to reply to as many of these points as possible. Shall I begin, perhaps with the points that were raised by the hon. member for Ngqeleni, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . He relied, as you will remember, right from the beginning on the criticisms which were raised by the hon. member for Matatiele. Let me start by replying to one of those criticisms in connection with the reduction of the Vote on this problem of soil reclamation. If
Quote ! Where does
CHIEF NDAMASE : When the fence is being erected three strands of plain wire and three of barbed wire are used and it is easy for small stock to go through that fence and to trespass into arable allotments which are not fenced in. What is the use of fencing or surveying if it only amounts to the fact that the children will continue to herd the stock instead of attending school? There are certain grazing camps in which, according to law, stock has to be kept although provision has not been made for water by way of dams. We maintain that preparations should be made beforehand to provide dams for water for stock. Even when such dams do contain water , that water is only sufficient for the period when cattle have been placed in that particular camp. Sir, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is not a suitable officer for this portfolio. It happened recently in the Qumbu district that some cattle had to be placed in a certain grazing camp in accordance with some regulation. In this camp there was no water so the cattle went to drink at a place near the dipping tank. The water near the dipping tank was contaminated and the cattle died , and this happened during the present Minister's term . Turning to woodlots , which have been created in connection with soil reclamation, what surprises us is that the agricultural officers will place the woodlots in such a situation that they will face north, and yet the Almighty in his creation made these forests face south-east. I would request the hon. Minister to tell his officers to study certain volumes in connection with forestry so that they should realise the forests should not face north, but the other way. Another matter is that there is plenty of water in the Transkei because all the rivers have running water even in times of drought, but what should be done is that barriers of cement should be built along the banks of the rivers so that the water does not flow away. Ithink you should appoint a commission to go into the question of water in the Transkei .
he had read the policy speech he would have discovered that I mentioned there that the Vote was over- estimated the previous year so that this year the Vote has been trimmed, but still the work will be carried on even, we hope, to a greater extent than last year. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Can you say why there was that over-estimate to that big amount? Was it an arbitrary estimate or was it related to the work? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We had hoped to have the necessary staff and we found we could not get enough people . Further, the officers of the department were engaged on relief work for quite a number of months , in arranging the ploughing scheme as well as Now, supervising the stock-feeding scheme. let us come to the next point. The hon. Chief Ndamase from Ngqeleni also went on to criticize the question of officials being unavailable when he referred to the solution by bursaries. The Department of Agriculture offers quite a number of bursaries . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Tsolo?
The diploma at
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Not only the diploma at Tsolo, but there is an engineer at Wits University now and there will be more. There are six learner technicians in the North and there are at Fort Hare a couple of B.Sc. students . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE :
On agriculture?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes. There are eleven students of forestry at Swartkop in Natal, 16 at Tsolo (which is the only group with a full complement), as well as five stock inspectors also at Tsolo. Applicants have been insufficient in all those groups I have mentioned, except the Tsolo School of Agriculture. Now, he mentioned also the propaganda work that is done by our department on the radio talks on Bantu Radio. Twice a week my officials also give a radio talk on agricultural matters .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to appeal to the House that a repetition of points which have been canvassed is going to delay the submission of this important Appropriation Bill to the State President for his signature in order to carry out the services of this Government. We have now been on this bill for a month. The members of this House and those of the civil service who expected their salaries at the end of April could not get them because this bill has not been • submitted to the State President, and it would appear that they will not get their salary increases at the end of May. A frivolous person
MR. GUZANA : Do you give publicity to those talks so that they are known? 202 .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes .
rities , and all , to do the thinking and find out why it is that the peasant farmer will not change his attitude to land occupation and general production. That is the main appeal that the hon. the Chief Minister and myself have been making to this House - that all must put their shoulders to the wheel . Without that work being done by all of us it is clear that we cannot rely only on the extension officers or the Agricultural Department. We are not under the Russian system where the order comes from the top and everybody has to obey and do as directed . We are a democracy , and the people can only be brought forward by education and persuasion . While I am referring to that point I remember another matter raised by the hon. member for Qumbu - a mistake , I think , that he made when he was speaking. Referring again to the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister , this member said that 45% of the land has been rehabilitated and it is expected that that 45% should produce the 50 million bags of mealies . It is not the 45% where those 50 million bags are expected , but the whole of the arable land in the Transkei. Again, therefore , we come back to that problem of rehabilitation without which we cannot make progress . The very word tells you "Hlaziyiwe " . The hon. member for Mount Fletcher asked if rehabilitation was the be-all and end-all . It is the very foundation of grogress in agricultural matters . Without it we have not made a start . We must remember that fact and it is our duty again to hammer it to the people as they expect us to lead them in this respect. There must be fencing and camps so that there should be controlled grazing , even apart from the rehabilitation of the arable lands . This has been recognized by the Assembly under the Act just quoted by the hon. member for Ngqeleni -Act No. 10 of 1966 where it provides that the Government should , where it sees that the soil will be ruined , take steps to force the people to undertake planning and rehabilitation. I think the contribution made by the hon. member for Willowvale , Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau , was very thought- provoking when she said that seeing that rehabilitation must come , why should the Government not start planning all the administrative areas to give the people the opportunity to start putting up proper buildings as well as to give the Government the opportunity to plan, for instance , for the water supplies .
MR. GUZANA : How? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In the "Umcebisi Womlimi Nomfuyi " . MR. GUZANA : Do you consider that adequate publicity for this? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , the radio itself has been publicizing them. Refresher courses , as I mentioned in my policy speech, are also held from time to time for the officials to be brought up to standard . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Refresher courses for the officials - not for the farmers ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , so far only for the demonstrators .
A CHIEF NDAMASE : are useless.
Whom we have told you
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You mentioned the matter of stock on the sales , cattle especially, and the disadvantage that the speculators have as against Vleis Sentraal , to the effect that these speculators have to sell to Vleis Sentraal. Well , I don't know what forces them to sell to Vleis Sentraal . MR. GUZANA : matter?
Will you investigate the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , why should they sell to Vleis Sentraal ? They are speculators and are free to sell their stock direct . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You have mentioned that we have cut down on the amount allocated for consultants on development, but may I mention that we have so many schemes and developments in hand that we feel it is not necessary at this stage to continue with that expenditure. May I refer to one other item there , where it was mentioned that we should have demonstration plots in all the administrative areas in the Transkei . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : authority areas .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : We want it done properly . No-one is against planning , but it should be done properly where it is applied .
I said in tribal
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There again you say "where it is applied for" . There should be no question on that point. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am not only referring to you now. Someone said in all administrative areas . Well , as you can realise , that would be quite impossible . Perhaps the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr. Jafta, had a good thought when he mentioned what the hon. the Chief Minister said to us all , that we must think and again think, but unfortunately he did add that it is the Minister who must do the thinking. However, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition helped to correct him later when he appealed very strongly to everybody, the chiefs , the members of the Assembly, the tribal autho-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, let us carry on. We would like to get the support from the Leaders to see that we do the planning with the consent of the people as well as , where necessary, without their consent. Would the tribal and regional authorities support us ? That is the type of thinking that we are throwing 203.
to the people through you, as leaders . Water , especially for domestic supplies , can only be economically undertaken when the area has been planned and rehabilitated , because such things as windmills cost money and if they are placed where, perhaps , the residential areas will be removed when this planning comes in, then it would mean that the money has been wasted . That I give as a general reply to the several points raised by some of the hon. members in connection with unrehabilitated areas. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked at one stage if the Transkei has been zoned into These zones are well agricultural regions . known to the Agricultural Department so that they are able to advise the people where to grow maize , for instance , sorghums , tea, etc.
me by one of the hon. members of this House about the promised survey of their lands so as to cut them up for their sons , as well as to sell to some of their friends . We would like fewer people on the lands so that they could do better and increase production. (Interjections ) MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Well , get them into industries . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We Iwould like to do that, but where are the industries ? MR. MADIKIZELA : In the Republic .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Minister, may I ask if the people settled on the allotments at the Lubisi irrigation scheme are not selected peasant farmers ?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : My worry is that that information does not get to the peasant farmer. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They are advised. The extension officers advise them .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
MR. GUZANA : But the information does not get to the people . They don't know these things , and that is why we asked about it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, the hon. member for Qumbu asked about Mbokotwana and its irrigation scheme . He suggested that the Xokonxa River could be used for irrigation. I should say the Xokonxa River is too small for that purpose . Yes, the Tsitsa might be investigated because it is a bigger river.
MR. GUZANA :
Can anyone get land there?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Those people who were there and who want land are given the land . One other point in passing, I may mention - the problem of land tenure really does not belong to the Agricultural Department. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : What is the attitude of your department to that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It belongs to the Department of the Interior.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Do you mean the Xokonxa sometimes dries up?
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Minister , isn't the land tenure problem of the Transkei relevant to agricultural endeavour here?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Sometimes , yes , but it is too small in any case . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : But you should make a dam to arrest the water and irrigate from the dam.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now , the hon. Chief T.N. Ndamase of Libode mentioned a certain small irrigation scheme which was in use there. We would like to give to those many irrigation schemes , large and small , as it was done in that particular case , but again that scheme , I learn, fell out because the people expected everything to be done by the agricultural officers , so that the people would not undertake the maintenance of the scheme and it fell into disuse .
It is.
MR. GUZANA : And therefore isn't it possible for your department to negotiate with the Department of the Interior on this matter? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , as I say, it is the people who want these small allotments . (Interjections ) MR . GUZANA : We are just talking of land tenure. Wouldn't your department, in view of the fact that the system of land tenure in the Transkei is relevant to agricultural progress , take up the matter with the Department of the Interior?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Did the department put it to the regional authority that the people were failing? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I could not say that. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition criticized the small allotments made in the irrigation schemes. The department , as well as the Government, would like to give the people bigger lands if these could be made available. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
No.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : we could discuss it. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA :
Yes,
The sooner the better.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There was another point mentioned in connection with commonages , and the VM Bs and the agricultural officers giving their views there . That again should not be the duty of the agricultural officers .
Order, please .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is The trouble is so, but what land is there ? there is not enough land and the people are ever clamouring to get themselves land . This also refers to non-irrigated areas . For instance , only the other day a question was brought to
MR. GUZANA : Isn't there co-ordination of services among the various department? Why are you a water-tight department? (Laughter) 204.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I think that matter should be undertaken by the tribal authorities . (Interjections)
Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I think it was the hon. member for Mount Fletcher who mentioned about the rights of the workers in forests and plantations . They really have no rights , but privileges are sometimes allowed to them so as to help them, especially in those cases, for instance , where they are far from the towns, and they can get things like vegetables , eggs or milk. There was another point mentioned , if I am not mistaken, by the same hon. member, that only four oxen and two cows are allowed into rehabilitated areas . I see he is shaking his head , and if I made a mistake I will say I am sorry. The number of stock is not yet limited per person, but the people are advised about the carrying capacity oftheir grazing areas. On the question of permits , someone said that the people are expected to buy the stock first and then come and ask for a permit afterwards. That should not be the system. The proper way is to get the permit first, otherwise it would be a great loss to the person concerned if, after getting the animals , he is not allowed to take them in.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . The hon. member, Mr. Mgudlwa must please keep quiet. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now , there was a question about shearing centres and the agricultural officers helping there even when there are no shearing sheds . I personally see no reason why agricultural officers cannot give help there. The department is trying to provide shearing sheds wherever it is found reasonable , and as the funds allow. I come now to the question of tractors . Tractors , as we have mentioned time and again, do not belong to the Agricultural Department. They are mainly the property of the XDC, so that the question of their concentration in Butterworth has nothing to do with this Government. MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, may I put a question? In 1968 we made application for tractors from the Minister of Agriculture . Now you are going to disappoint us when you tell us tractors are not under your department and you cannot make representations on our behalf to the correct department. As far as ploughing is concerned, where are you going to say we should go to?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Will your department take a liberal view to the introduction of stock into the Transkei in view of the stock losses now? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes . Now, wasn't there someone who said that the breeding bulls are sold on the rand for rand system ? That is not quite right.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I did not say that the department or the Minister is not prepared to make representations . The first point I mentioned just now was that their concentration in Butterworth is not the duty of the Government. As far as representations are concerned , we are prepared to make these on behalf of the members . For instance , the question of the accounts being issued for payment in May will be considered . In fact, they will be referred to the XDC and we will find out what help they can give so as to postpone payment until the end of the reaping season. There was a question of agricultural shows also which was raised. Shows are organised
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, we got that from the hon. the Chief Minister who said they were sold on a rand for rand basis. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I said on subsidy.
I never said that
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : These bulls are sold on subsidy.
MR. MAJIJA: bilitated areas ?
by the people themselves , even including the central show. What the department does is to help by means of a subsidy, as well as any assistance that can be given by its officers . It is therefore up to the people themselves to organise the central show as they do the other shows. The question of rangers working not too well with the headmen and chiefs is one of the problems that we should all co-operate to try to solve .
Does it affect the unreha-
That THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : was explained by one hon. member who replied it would be most unwise to sell in the unrehabilitated areas . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : has ....
What relation
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I do not know whether we can approve of these questions raised while the hon. Minister is replying. He is replying to what you have asked and now you continue to ask other questions .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : It is only the department which can see to that because it is the department which employs them . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this House will not tolerate the remarks of the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Mgudlwa. He must stop insulting the Minister. He keeps on insulting the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry by saying " Don't laugh" . You are not supposed to say that to the Minister; We take strong exception to that behaviour .
CHIEF NDAMASE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , is it forbidden for a member to raise a question from the Minister? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : developed into an argument.
But these have
MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I think you can
205 .
I don't know where he got as three years. that idea with reference to the European officers only taking three years.
judge by the number of questions asked that we are dealing with a matter which is of great importance . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The price paid by the farmer for a bull is R40 , or he may exchange a bull for his own bull provided , of course , it is not too young or too small .
MR. DUMALISILE :
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , the ten years is provided , and what is wrong with it? This is provided by the Public Service Commission. So also is the case ofthe question he raised about the " Other Staff" , which refers mainly to the semi - skilled labourers . That is why their scale was not shown in the Estimates , but again we work according to the directions of the Public Service Commission. Another point mentioned was a certain official from the Ciskei who was getting what he called a "territorial" allowance. That is not known in the department . If we could later get more information an inquiry could be made to find out what that territorial allowance is . In connection with stock inspectors , it is the policy that stock inspectors should use horses , because the area they cover is reasonably small . It would be too costly to provide vehicles over such short distances . Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think I have tried to cover all the problems raised in this House and therefore I will further move that the Vote be now passed.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : What is the amount of the subsidy by the Department? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The department pays the rest, which is far more than R40. The amount is not fixed because it depends on the place where these animals are bought. MR. GUZANA: I was just keen to know what the average price of these bulls is without a subsidy. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We do sometimes get them for R100 . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : on a percentage basis ?
Come to the ten years .
Isn't the subsidy
No. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, there were some points raised by the hon. member for Lusikisiki where , for instance , he advocated the establishment of peasant farmers in tea-growing. It is the aim of this Government and the department to provide for that. What has been done so far is to make a start to ensure there will be a supply for the factory which has been established , so that when the present scheme is running we hope to get the peasant farmers to take part. He also mentioned the question of a clinic which should be provided There again, it at the tea factory or farm . is the duty of the Department of the Interior to deal with clinics , as well as the issue of the land itself, although it may be within the plantation ground. He also mentioned the development of tourism along the Eastern Pondoland coast. The department is very glad to have that stated by the hon. member , because it is one of the aims of this department to develop the coastal areas especially for this business . There was another problem about the double removals of people in rehabilitated areas . In the first place , with long-established rehabilitated areas some re-planning was found necessary so that as far as possible there should be what is called a "four -camp" system serving each residential area, in order that there should be little driving of stock for long distances and sometimes even across closed camps . In such cases , with the consent of the people , there is re-planning done which may necessitate the removal of a residential area. Otherwise , according to the present system , before the people can be removed or even fences put up, the plan is worked out and the officers responsible work according to the plan, so that there should be no need for these double removals . The hon. member for Willowvale, Mr. Dumalisile , mentioned the question of agricultural officers , grade 1 , taking ten years to get to the top notch whilst in the case of European officers they may take only as little
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. May I ask the hon. Minister what is the attitude of his department to officers joining an association of their own? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I thought that had been covered by one of the other speakers . The officers are not prevented from joining their own association. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Before you sit down, Mr. Chairman, there was an amendment which was moved and I seconded it, and before I could explain my views I was just ruled down. I was the seconder. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall now deal with the amendment by the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke . Amendment put and negatived . The sum of R6,669,000 under Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry, passed to stand part of the schedule .
The
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION POLICY SPEECH : VOTE 6 : MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS Mr. Chairman , Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly. Although my department was once again able to discharge its multitude of duties successfully during the past year, as Minister of this department, I feel it is my duty to mention that it suffered a grievous loss with the passing of the
206.
Secretary, Mr. W.A.R.K. Grabe , on the 5th He was dedicated to serving October, 1969. the Transkei and its people. His was the steadying hand in the department; always ready with advice and guidance . He was the architect and engineer who built up this department from its inception into an efficient organisation within the framework of government and with the motto of service above self. Through his able work the department will be able to continue building on the foundation laid by him.
Honourable Members will be glad to learn that six officers are now attending the Mmadikoti College near Pietersburg. One Technical Learner Engineering Technician is in his third year of a four-year course whilst three have completed their first year and one commenced his first year in March, 1970. One Learner Survey Assistant also commenced his first year in March, 1970. The three Clerks Grade I at the Witwatersrand University who are studying for their B.Sc. (Eng. ) degrees are making progress . Each one had to write a supplementary examination but to date the results are not yet known.
A service department, as my department is , can never be stagnant and must keep abreast of new techiniques and trends in order to achieve the best results at the least cost.
Subhead B : Subsistence and Transport.
Although the department is severely handicapped by the lack of senior technical staff in all branches of its activities , but especially in its Roads Branch, it will continue the programme of re-construction of roads , re-metalling and maintenance , construction and maintenance of buildings and transport services , whether departmental or on a contract basis .
This subhead provides for three items , namely subsistence , motor transport and general transport. Allowance for subsistence has been increased by R2,500 to R5,000 for the new financial year. This increase has been necessitated by the increase of the rates applicable to subsistence and is in accordance with the amount of travelling done by staff during the last financial year.
In allocating funds to the various services , due regard has been given to the needs of each Government department.
There is a slight increase in the number of vehicles in use over last year but in spite of this , honourable members will notice that the same amount is asked for this year. There is a mileage tariff in operation in the form of a hire charge which is booked against this vote. These moneys are again credited to the Transkei Revenue Fund so that the mileage hire tariff paid out under this subhead is not expenditure by the exchequer in real terms . The provision against the item motor transport is being maintained at R100,000 in the belief that, by even more stringent measures than in the past, mileage can be curtailed without affecting the smooth running of the department adversely.
My department's Vote 6 provides for the expenditure of R4,877,500 during the 1970/71 financial year, which is R12,500 less than the previous financial year , 1969/70. Having regard to the increased cost of labour and materials , my department's programme has in fact been measured against the need for essential services and the potential of the staff at its disposal .
I wish to add that, although the expenditure entailed in the provision of streets , water reticulation and sewerage for the Maluti township does not figure on my department's budget but on that of the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance under 1.G, these services are carried out under the direction and control of my department. It may be of interest to the House to note that the department's " Project Unit " has completed the construction of streets in the Maluti township .
On the other hand, it has been found necessary to increase the item general transport. This item, with insignificant exceptions , deals with the rail account. The increased expenditure on railage is mainly due to increased productivity by the department as a whole which means that more materials , equipment, fuel and oil had to be imported. If I tell honourable members that one truck-load of bricks from Bloemfontein to Umtata costs R177 they will no doubt appreciate the necessity for this increase . A large area of the Transkei is not served by railways and here use must be made of Road Motor Services with consequent increases in transport costs .
After these remarks I now propose to confine myself to discuss the individual subheads of Vote 6.
Subhead A : Slaries , Wages and Allowances .
This subhead provides for the items salaries wages and allowances . It is generally accepted that allowances should be made for an increased provision under the subhead for salaries , wages and allowances . This is due to the expanding
Subhead C : Services .
economy, annual increments and promotions of staff, improved benefits such as bonuses and salary increases to keep pace with improved standards of living and so on. The Transkei is no exception and salaries and wages for the department's staff have been increased on an average by 10%.
last year , mainly due to the fact that postage has been transferred to Vote 1.
Postal, Telegraph and Telephone
An amount of R5,400 is asked for under this subhead. This is a decrease of R5,400 over
Subhead D lications .
Printing, Advertisements and Pub-
There is an insignificant decrease of R400
207 .
under this subhead for 1970/71 . The volume of printing work required and publications to be purchased are expected to remain more or less the same as last year.
Subhead E
St. Marks - Qamata - Cofimvaba -Engcobo - Umtata.
Route 2A:
Umtata Libode · Port St. Johns and Port Edward via Lambasi . The Port St. Johns to Port Edward section was , at the time of the declaration of this route, only declared as a line of road as no actual road existed.
Route 19 :
From the Maclear Divisional Boundary at Halcyon Drift to Matatiele Municipal Commonage Boundary via Mount Fletcher.
Miscellaneous Expenses .
Having regard to the higher expenditure incurred during the 1969/70 financial year in respect of Workmen's Compensation payments , the amount for this financial year has been increased by R3,000. More use is also being made of protective clothing and the prices of individual garments have increased , hence a corresponding increase of R1,500 under this item . Subhead F
Route 18 :
My department has also negotiated for the widening of the road and the replacement of the existing bridges by modern structures on the direct route from the Kei Bridge to Umzimkulu.
Furniture , Safes and Appliances .
The amount applied for under this subhead is R9,000 compared with R10,000 during 1969/70. This amount would have been decreased even more but, unfortunately, items of furniture ordered some time ago during the last financial year are still outstanding and when delivered will have to be paid during the current financial year .
I can now say that the Provincial Roads Authorities received my representations very sympathetically and supported my request in a letter to the Department of Transport. By the same token, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development had informal discussions with the Department of Transport and the position is that the latter will be asked to expedite the surfacing of the St. Marks to Cofimvaba section .
Subhead G : Roads and Bridges . This subhead deals with one of the most important activities of the department, namely the construction and maintenance of Government roads and bridges . Re-construction of
The Umtata to Libode section is due to be given out on contract whilst the Libode to Port St. Johns section is now being surveyed .
Government roads to improved standards in conformity with traffic requirements is carried out as a continuous policy from year to year . The department has gone through a difficult period during the past year as a result of severe drought conditions which made compaction of the road wearing surface almost impossible . This condition was aggravated by the increase in heavy vehicles transporting maize to areas where crop failures occurred . The situation was further aggravated by a further wastage of qualified and experienced senior road staff which has stretched the department's man-power resources to the utmost. For this reason and also on account of the shortage of mechanical staff in its workshops , the department cannot increase the number of its heavy construction units or major regravelling units , but only proposes to bring existing units up to strength .
Planning of the final route should follow shortly and the section should be completed in five years . The section Port St. Johns to Port Edward has not yet received attention and is unlikely to be built within ten years . My department has also negotiated in respect of the Transkei Government road, Pakadi to Magusheni . It has been decided in principle to investigate this road with a view to reconstructing this section and to surfacing it permanently. Once the report is completed and the cost is known, the Republican Government has given to understand that it will then take steps for special funds to be made available . The Magusheni to Port St. Johns and the Magusheni to Port Edward roads can, unfortunately, not be treated similarly to the Pakadi to Magusheni road as these two routes will be intimately affected by the National road from Port St. Johns to Port Edward .
In my last year's policy speech I informed the House that, with the steadily increasing volume of traffic, my department is finding it difficult to cope with the corresponding heavy maintenance required . Since then traffic counts taken along some of the most important Government roads indicate that the time is not far distant when some of these roads will have to be permanently surfaced .
The main thing is that the improvement of the aforementioned roads , which has stood still for such a long time , will now once again receive the attention they deserve . The past year also saw the completion of three Regional road depots , which provide workshop repair services , storage and office accommodation to these regions and will greatly facilitate the regional control of services .
Relevant to the general question of tarring of roads , honourable members will be glad to know that my department has for some time been negotiating with the Cape Provincial Roads authorities and the Department of Transport, through the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, for the reconstruction and permanent surfacing of the following three routes , namely :
I can assure the House that my department will do its utmost to maintain the Government roads to the improved standards now required, with all the means at its disposal .
208.
Subhead H : Purchase and Hire of Plant, Machinery and Tools .
There is a definite upward trend in the rate at which these classrooms are being erected under this scheme. The limiting factor still seems to be the shortage of building contractors who have the necessary organisation or funds to Thus my department is undertake the work. trying to establish contractors who in turn can create work opportunities without having to make an unrealistically large capital outlay. The minor works item under this subhead to be carried out departmentally has also been increased slightly.
Of the total amount required some R150,000 will be used for the purchase of plant and equipment necessary to bring existing units up to strength, but the rest of the funds is mainly required to replace old, obsolete and worn- out machinery, plant, tools , etc. Building Services
-
Subhead J
Major Works .
This subhead covers one of the prime functions of the department, namely the building services. All individual building works , the cost of which is expected to amount to R8,000 or more, are grouped under Subhead J.
Subhead L : General Maintenance . As the name implies , this subhead provides for the cleaning, upkeep and maintenance of Government buildings. In the normal course of events the expenditure under this subhead should show a steady increase as more buildings are taken in use.
For the 1969/70 financial year I estimated for the completion of building works to the value of R1,408,100 but I must report that the actual production fell far short of this target.
Subhead M Rents, Rates , Water , Electriticity and Other Municipal Services .
Due to the heavy building construction programme in the Republic there were severe shortages of basic building material and this delay was aggravated by congestion on the railways . Honourable members most probably saw in the newspapers that there was a shortage of millions of bricks . There were also delays in obtaining steel windows and building construction timber .
Payments to Municipalities make up a large proportion of the expenditure under this heading. There is a reduction of R10,000 under this subhead for the current year. This proposed appropriation is in line with actual expenditure last year .
In spite of these difficulties several large projects were either fully completed or handed over for beneficial occupation with only the final finishing to be done.
Subhead N Maintenance and Repair of Plant, Equipment and Tools. The large number of machines , plant, equipment and tools in use by the department , from bulldozers , motor graders and loaders to tiptrucks , crushers , concrete mixers and compressors , has to be maintained in a good state of repair. There is , here , an increase of R30,000 over the 1969/70 financial year.
Amongst this category I may mention firstly the Justice Building in Umtata , the Technical College also in Umtata, the Vocational Training School at Lusikisiki, the first and second stages of the Blythswood Institution and the Government Garage .
Subhead O The contract for the new Administrative Building which will house three departments in convenient offices has been signed and the contractor has started site-clearing operations as a preliminary to the actual building operations. Building contracts for the Butterworth Training School , the Maluti High and Training School and the Rhoda High School hostels have also been signed and building operations will start in earnest at these centres within the next few weeks . The third stage of building operations at Blythswood is expected to be completed during this financial year.
Government Motor Transport.
The provision of motor transport to all the Transkei Government departments is a vitally important service . As departments expand and as their activities increase, more vehicles are required for carrying out the various functions and duties. The Transkei is not served by an efficient scheduled public transport network and the Government must undertake a very large volume of transport by Government vehicles . Practically all feeder services from railheads are undertaken by Government vehicles.
Building Services - Minor Works Subhead K and Alterations and Primary School Classrooms .
At present there are 620 vehicles of different types, e.g. trucks , cars , light delivery vans , station wagons and kombis in use . During 1969 25 light motor cycles were also purchased for the Department of Agriculture and Forestry.
Amongst others , provision for the primary school classroom scheme is made under this subhead . This scheme was lauched during the 1966/67 financial year and whereas the response was disappointingly slow in the initial stages , the scheme all of a sudden started flowering during the last financial year when 64 classrooms plus ancillary buildings such as toilets , staffrooms , stores and offices were completed. In addition 58 classrooms were commenced with but will only be completed in the 1970/71 financial year .
In spite of my previous remarks , I have accordingly provided for an amount of R609,000 compared with R621,000 during the 1969/70 financial year . This is largely due to the fact that fewer vehicles than last year will be replaced during the current year . Where such a large volume of transport, in terms of vehicles and miles , is involved it is 209 .
inevitable that accidents will occur . To reduce this to an absolute minimum my department works in close co-operation with the South African Road Safety Association .
this subject is connected with the Department of Agriculture, that department is not responsible for the buildings . It is evident that the hon. Minister is not aware of this responsibility. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, not of Roads and Works .
During last year 501 drivers were awarded safe driving certificates to indicate a year's accident-free operation. This scheme has proved popular and it can be regarded as a successful incentive in reducing road accidents . A further aid is the appointment of motor vehicle examiners and as qualified persons become available I am prepared to appoint them in terms of the Road Traffic Act ( Act No. 5 of 1967) .
CHIEF MAJEKE : I am talking about springs where cement constructions are built over the springs . When I speak about the roads in the Transkei , the correct thing should be that the roads of the Transkei are in good condition . From the speech by the hon . Minister Igathered that she has dealt largely with the roads connected with the Republic. She enumerated the roads from Qamata to Umtata and elsewhere , and from what I can gather those roads are strategic roads. I would be pleased , however , if she would take over those roads and that that should become Transkei roads . I take it that the road from the Kei Bridge to Umzimkulu is a national road. Now, what I desire the hon . Minister to deal with are those which directly affect the citizens of the Transkei - roads leading to the lands , roads on which local buses travel , taking people from one location to another . The state of those roads is very poor ; they are narrow and they are not provided with signs to indicate what a driver should expect. This could result in a great many accidents if there are no signposts and the roads are narrow. Even the bridges are very narrow and they are constructed in such a way that they are low down over the water, which means they are usually flooded in wet weather. This also constitutes a danger to the public. Applications which have been submitted to this department by the regional authorities have received no reply , although in some instances the applications deal with locations in which nothing has been done. Those locations should also enjoy the rights obtained by other citizens of the Transkei . If the hon. Minister is interested in finding out anything about those applications , she should go and look up the files and she will find there are longstanding applications made in this regard. Again, there are beauty spots in the Transkei , such as Tsitsa Falls , which could be a great attraction to tourists . Signposts should be erected along the roads so that these tourists could be directed there . That would add to the revenue Whilst on the question of of the Transkei . Tsitsa Falls , there is one location about there which has no road at all leading to it. I have documents from people here who have been driven away from their work. These poor workers have been discharged like dying flies . In particular I wish the hon. Minister to make a note of people from the Maluti region who were fired without any reason. If names are required I can furnish them. The people there have never said that an inquiry was held to inquire into their work, but they were just discharged . This is the question: If those people cannot obtain work in the Republic and when they come to the Transkei they are fired from their jobs , what can they do ? They asked me to ask that question of the Minister. You say the cement constructions around the springs are not the work of your department. I hope you will not say the school buildings are not your department.
Drivers are also encouraged to care for their vehicles and I am pleased to be able to report that one driver attached to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry was awarded a bonus of R100 for the particular care he bestowed on the vehicle he was operating . This vehicle reached 100,000 miles before it had to be temporarily withdrawn from service for a major overhaul . The Government garage will be taken into use during this month. It is designed to provide indoor parking for 100 motor vehicles and it is equipped with a modern servicing bay. Motor vehicles can now be properly examined to diagnose defects and can be equally well inspected to control the repairs undertaken by private garages . It is expected that the Government garage will assist in streamlining the whole transport operation .
I would be amiss if I did not express my appreciation to my staff. In spite of crippling handicaps caused by deaths , illness , resignations and transfers , my staff has gallantly met the challenge and if they have not always been as successful as we all wished , it was not for lack of trying . Mr. Chairman , I trust that I have given some idea of the activities of my department and I now move the adoption of Vote 6 of the Estimates . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to reply to the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works . She spoke about the different sub-heads refelcted in the Estimates , but she did not give detailed accounts of the actual roads . The roads themselves and the condition of the roads are of the greatest importance . Secondly, in regard to public works these works are connected with construction. Because this hon . Minister is a lady, and the first lady Cabinet Minister in the whole of South Africa, I think she accepted this portfolio knowing she would be able to cope with the responsibilities thereof. Firstly , I wish to deal with the conditions in the Transkei as far as the women especially are concerned . Take water, for instance - the hon. Minister knows all the domestic responsibilities of women and ' how water is drawn . She will understand that the water is drawn from springs and it is married women who draw the water . Though
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road. In rainy seasons some people cannot travel at all because of the condition of our roads. Buses which convey people to towns are sometimes held up for three days and this causes difficulty to people who have to go to the magistrate's office to attend cases in court. Again, I heard you enumerate all the roads connected with the Republic, but we request you to take the matter of public thoroughfares within the Transkei . You gave as a reason that when there is a drought it is difficult to make good roads . If you shield yourself behind that you will never succeed in making good roads in the Transkei. There is gravel in the Transkei and people dig this gravel indiscriminately in the locations . Even if there is a drought and gravel is put on the roads , that gravel remains there. If you say that when there is a drought and nothing can be done on the roads , then you should get helicopters. ( Laughter) You have teams for all the regions but these teams should be stationed in the regions and not remain here in Umtata. You will always get information as to the condition of the roads from those people in the regions where those teams are stationed. I want you to take particular note of applications made for certain roads which have not been attended to. There is a road at Upper Nxaxa , a link between Mount Fletcher and Qumbu. Those people have to go right down along the Tina because there is no road which enables them to link up with the bus. (Interjections ) You go towards Mount Frere in the direction of Tina and those locations have remained in that state for a long time and even up to now they are just like wild animals because they have no contact with other people. I hope you will take note of all those things .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Ihave to correct you when you ascribe other departments ' duties to my department. CHIEF MAJEKĖ : All right, let me speak of schools. Schools are very important and necessary in our life , and progress is made through these schools, but the manner in which the schools are built is very disappointing. You have admitted in your policy statement that you haven't the builders . It is not our fault that you haven't builders . If you have accepted this portfolio you must look for these builders . ( Laughter and interjections ) I am pleased to learn that the hon. Minister knows I am not directing my criticism to her but I am only talking about the delays in the erection of schools . There are certain builders not known to you in the Transkei and I would advise you to make inquiries. They are living in the rural locations . These people are engaged in constructing some buildings where rehabilitation is under way. They get what small salary they can there , yet they are well qualified and if you employ these people they could do the work. If you make investigations through the magistrates in the districts , as well as through the chiefs in the locations , you will be able to find these people. Let us go now to the question of labourers on the roads . What a piteous crowd ! In winter months when it is cold, you find them getting to work at 7 a.m. and shivering with cold. (Interjections ) When you look at them they are a piteous crowd , thin and sickly. You will find they are in difficulties and have come to earn a living for their families . When you start thinking about these people you remember these are fathers of children and heads of families. I appeal on behalf of those people who are so exposed that they should be paid suitable salaries . Remember that the Transkei is being criticized quite a lot. Again, I would appeal that when these people are working, a van or lorry should be provided in cases when these people are suddely attacked by inclement weather such as hailstorms.
MR. J.M. DINIZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise up to support the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. It was a very good speech indeed . I can say fearlessly that of all the countries which have become self-governing, there is not one which It is a is so unfortunate as the Transkei.
CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the hon. member how much these people were paid during Bunga days , and how much they are paid today.
country which is still an infant, but which nevertheless has opponents . Even when they make requests they mix them up with lies. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Where is the lie? Mr. Chairman, we would like that hon. member to substantiate his allegation that the Opposition tells lies and , if he cannot, to withdraw that statement.
CHIEF MAJEKE : The hon. member does not understand what we are talking about. I am talking about the health of these people . He asks what these people were paid during Bunga days , but he himself does not know what he is now paid. We are talking about our own people who are responsible for the construction of our roads. We want those people to enjoy good health if they have got to put our roads in order , and that their children should also enjoy good health and the privileges of education , and their wives should enjoy good health, too. The hon. Minister says their trucks were taken over by Those trucks did convey other departments . mealies , but we maintain you should have your own trucks which are not taken away from you. Today cars are the mode of travel and people in the locations use cars . You know that the purchase price is high. When one leaves the Transkei , travelling towards the national road , no-one is happy until he reaches the national
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you substantiate the statement that they tell lies ?
MR. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman, I withdraw statement. I think the majority of the Opposition members today are trembling with fear because they anticipated that a female Minister would be a failure . This is the second occasion on which she has proved that she knows the work for which she was appointed.
the
MR. G.G. KUTU : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, this member should withdraw the words that the hon. Minister is a woman. (Laughter)
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THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
The debate was adjourned.
Order, please .
House Resumed
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I am sure the hon. members have now had enough for the day. At the moment there is less listening than noise and therefore , there being very little time left before the official adjournment time, I move that the hon. Minister should request the Chairman to report progress .
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 18th May, 1970.
MONDAY , 18th MAY , 1970 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. member can complete his fifteen minutes before the official time.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
MEMBERS : There is too much noise .
APPROPRIATION BILL SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
:
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : the noise , then
Will you stop
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House sits in committee.
MR. DINIZULU: Iwas saying , Mr. Chairman, that the hon. Minister has learned all that was unknown as far as the work is concerned, and those who treated her with contempt know that she is capable . I don't know if they thought she would go and drive tractors and wield a spade in the repairing of roads . They did not know that it was only incumbent upon her to see that the repair work was done properly. I want to say that the whole of the Transkei is satisfied with the way the roads have been constructed . Some were constructed before her time , but they are being kept in good order . I want to encourage her and tell her she must not stop the good work, but go forward . There are roads , however, which were constructed during the days of the Bunga but which have been discontinued , but you will find, if you investigate , that they have not been constructed by this Government. Those roads were important to the people, however. I also want to tell the hon. Minister that her department is not concerned only with road construction but also with communications . It is a fine thing if I have to visit my friend in Umzimkulu to travel on a fine road . I have this request to make to your department in connection with a very important road from Willowvale to Idutywa, and another one from Nqabara to Idutywa. These roads lie in poor country and in the rainy seasons the people cannot get to Idutywa to catch the train. I therefore ask your department that if they consider the question of tarring the roads , these roads should be considered because of their importance . I do not know if I will be in order if I make some comment on the national roads. These roads are fenced in in some places but not in others. There was a time when there was a strict law against stock owners whose stock trespassed on to these roads . They were fined as much as R30 , so much that in this severe drought , the animal being in such poor condition, the owner just abandoned it. We are told that any animals found straying on these shot without any attempt roads will be to find who the owner is . We know that it is not proper for stock to be on the roads because many lives have been lost as a result, and you will note that the stock does not worry about the portions of the road which are not fenced in, but only those which are fenced in, because of the vegetation .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I second.
Agreed to . House in Committee The debate on Vote 6 , Department of Roads and Works , was resumed .
MR. W.C. SINGATA : Mr. Chairman andhon. members , I wish first of all to state that we are sad at the loss of a man of the calibre of Mr. Grabe . Death is no respecter of persons . It pleases us to note that there is another Secretary who will be like him. When we met a difficulty in our location in connection with the erection of a school , Mr. Grabe came to our assistance . Mr. Grabe , though it was stated that preference should be given to those people who had a number of pupils , said I should be given preference because I was a member of this House . Another man who left his post was the hon. Mr. Mabandla and during his time no-one was driven away from work without an investigation having first been made , but what we find now is that many people are being discharged so much so that these people seek from work the assistance of attorneys . We say the hon. Minister has stepped into the shoes of a man who was very much liked by the country. To put this matter correct, let me quote from the Bible , where the truth is stated : "Where the righteous are in authority the people rejoice , but when the wicked beareth rule the people mourn. " (Laughter ) Now, those who have taken up these portfolios should find out whether they are on the side of the people who are going to be pleased or of the people who are going to be grieved. There was a question which I asked but the hon. Minister tried to evade the issue without finding out what I was aiming at . The Minister replied in so far as the nine regions are concerned that the Nyanda region had no school established, and yet there is a certain school , the Ndamase School , which should have classes similar to the vocational school at Lusikisiki . One point stated by the hon. Minister which pleased us was that she consulted with 212 .
other departments such as the Department of Finance and the Department of Transport. I came to the conclusion then that this Minister would be a sensible and responsible Minister and that the other Ministers do not do what this particular Minister intended to do. There is the money which she spoke about which is set aside to buy scooters for the agricultural officers . The staff in that department is not happy about this because there are certain people who are as old as myself who cannot use a scooter. That money should therefore not be used for that purpose, but rather it should be used to make an additional payment to the rangers . Now, let me come to the people who are employed in the this building as cleaners and others who are employed as semi -skilled labourers . There are certain men who are qualified and have been qualified for many years as carpenters, but they are not employed as such. They are employed merely as beginners and they are supervised by people who have never even been educated. If you don't believe this statement you should call these people and you will find there are a great number of them who are qualified as carpenters but are only treated as mere beginners and learners . There is a complaint, more particularly from the cleaners who start work at 6.30 in the morning and knock off at 5 o'clock in the afternoon. Even on Wednesdays some of them leave work at 3.30. What about allowing these people to leave work at 4.30 so that they should begin their work timeously, or start work at 6 o'clock in the morning and knock off at 4.30 ? There are some people who were even employed during the time of the TTA, who have had ten years ' service , and some who have had six years ' service and up to now have not even received R1 a day. If these people could have been treated retrospectively from the time of the TTA up to now, they could now be receiving R1 . I made enquiries from a member of the Public Service Commission and he told me that fault lies with the Ministers , and he specially mentioned one. We request that our present Minister , who seems to be a promising one , should visit these departments and take an interest in their plight. They are not paid during public holidays such as Easter holidays . I wish to make a request to you. There is a certain place at the Tsitsa Falls which is very important. I visited the place with certain engineers during the time of the TTA and we were interested in the establishment of a power station at the Falls and the building of a bridge between Shawbury and Qumbu so that the electricity produced there should serve all the townships , as well as Umtata. When we take into account that electricity is progress today, you people seem to be old-fashioned . From Tsolo junction to Tsitsa Falls a road should be made and declared , and also a bridge should be built over the Tsitsa River.
today, the rains may come and tomorrow that same road is in disrepair. We are thankful for your efforts in this department, particularly in view of the fact that you are new to it. We are also thankful that the hon. Minister has endeavoured to raise the wages of the servants in this department, because if people are not adequately paid they become thieves . As far as schools are concerned , everything has been done by the department to build schools , but we ask the hon. Minister to keep the position under observation because there are certain areas As which have complaints in this respect. regards road signs , there are certain places where there are no signs although they are bus- stops . We ask the hon. Minister to look into the matter so that these boards are erected. Again, where school-children have to cross the road we request that signposts be erected . I am thinking particularly of a place , Ntola School, where there is no signpost and the schoolchildren have to cross the road at a place which is out of sight of drivers. We also request the hon. Minister to look into the matter of drifts and we request that we should be supplied with drainpipes , or that we should be allowed to buy these as tribal authorities . It is possible, perhaps , that you could give us a concession do and supply us with these free of charge. not know whether I will be relevant if I request that telephones be installed in our offices . I express gratitude and I fully support the Department of Roads and Works and I hope the hon. member who has moved an amendment on this Vote will withdraw it because there is nothing controversial in this . I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think we all agree when I say it is very pleasing to have such a Minister of Roads as this one. In fact, we all descend from such a person. ( Laughter ) That person is a person who is merciful . I am sure all the matters that we ask her to handle will be handled with tenderness and mercy. I must first of all bring this matter to her notice . I have been perusing the Estimates to find out the wages paid to people who work on the roads . From what I read in the Estimates there is a list of people who have to be paid, form the Minister to the Secretary , the assistant secretary, chief clerks and so forth, but that list only reflects the educated and not the uneducated , yet there are those people who guard her life when she leaves the Assembly to go to her home in Lusikisiki district. Then she travels in a beautiful new black car , such a good car that she cannot meet with any accidents on the road , but she has forgotten about those people who make arrangements for her - the labourers . They are termed unskilled labourers . Those people are faithful to her but when they are paid they are given such a small amount. Imagine them starting work in the morning at 7 o'clock and they only knock off work at 5 in the evening, yet they are only paid 5c . an hour . Imagine -
CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads , and I am glad to rise after the hon. member who has just sat down because he could level no criticism against this department. This department has a difficult job to do, because even if a road is repaired
these people have their own families and what food can they eat except a drink of water when they go to bed ? What about doing this kindness on their behalf and paying them 10c an hour? Sitting here I have listened keenly to announcements of increments in wages and salaries .
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will now be drowned in the rivers . We are thankful that you did not become annoyed when people visited you in your office , but you just got in your car and went to investigate. That shows you are diligent in your work. When we count up the number of schools we find almost the whole territory now has schools, but we would be pleased if you would see that every area has schools . You do not complain when people go to your office . I can hear someone behind me criticizing, but don't worry about those people because you have given us these roads and they are jealous . You also see that there are automatic loaders so that people do not have to use wheelbarrows . We have also seen these on the roads . Our labourers look nice and healthy now because they are no longer sweepers , but gentlemen of the roads . All the work is now done automatically by machines . We thank you for going about amongst our people and making their lot light. You must always expect a few bumps when you are travelling, but you must take no account of that. Don't be impatient, but continue your work.
It is only the educated ones who enjoy those increments . As I have been listening to the various speeches it has been stated that money has been set aside for increments , but that only affects the educated people . What do you say about those people belonging to your grandmother? (Laughter) It is those people who form the nation. Before I sit down finally I wish to say that last year there were certain requests made , but the hon . the Chief Minister told us that we should consult with your Secretary and a number of us approached the late Mr. Grabe . However, he died , but his death did not take away those requests which we made . Those requests remain behind unattended to and a reply is still required. Just to to Tsomo and take the road leading to the Ciskei , to Stutterheim , and you will find the road on this side of the Kei in such a bad state that you only expect death on that road. Make investigations and see whether you can travel along that road smoothly. Let us turn to those places where the rivers or streams are not bridged . Even now I have been promised by your Secretary that he will go out and see the bridge over the Nconcolora stream where many lives have been lost. Will the hon. lady please....
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am sure the hon. Minister now realises after the last speaker how urgent it is that she should undertake the building of a home for the aged and mentally infirm. ( Laughter) May I first of all say how much we on this side of the House feel the loss of Mr. Grabe in your department. I am sure the department must have been thrown out of gear for many, many months and probably that is the reason why some of the work we would have expected has not been done. We note with pleasure the fact that there is co-operation between your department and the Republican Department and , I suppose , the National Road Council in the improvement and construction of these main routes that go through the Transkei. This will certainly encourage tourism and in this regard I would like to mention the road from Viedgesville to Coffe Bay, which is an important link between the main national road and the coastline . I know the work has been undertaken, but one would like to see it speeded up . A matter for comment in this regard is the fact that the road is appreciably being widened, and this means greater safety on the road . May I then, in this widening process of the road , make this observation - that round the curves and the bends the tendency is for the construction of the road to be exactly the same as it is along the straight length of the road. The crown remains high and if the road is turning to the right or left the motorist is almost, by the surface of the road , pushed on to drive on the wrong side of the road. In dry weather there might be a skid if you keep to the correct side of the road ; in wet weather, of course, you skid off the road because , if the road is turning to the right and you keep to the left, you are outside the main crown of the road from which the road slopes outwards . This is really incidental to the widening of the road and I suggest that something be done so that the slope should be towards the inside of the curve around the bends. You have mentioned the fact that the Justice building in Umtata is now in use under what you describe as " beneficial occupation" ,
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon . member please address the Minister as "hon. Minister " an not as " Nkosazana " . MR. MNYILA : Will the lady who is an hon. Minister please see to these things. (Laughter) I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. M. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the policy speech We have seen many by the hon. Minister . achievements during the Minister's time and we can see she would like to see progress in every branch of her department . On the roads we have seen something new which we saw for the first that is, the sprinkling time during her time of water on the roads so that there will be no dust. That has given some rest to those who have to wash our cars , because you have done away with dust on the road surface . The wages are encouraging because formerly people used to complain, but today they are pleased when they see your car because they know you are going to introduce increments . We see schools all over the Transkei and almost the entire territory now has schools . We have also noted improvements in the condition of roads leading to the schools and to the Great Places and the headmen's and chiefs ' kraals , and this has happened during your time. This shows that you care for our people. Even in the rural areas there are roads being constructed to the trading stations . Even as you speak there is something new, which is a uniform comprising helmets and overalls . These enable the roadworkers to keep clean and it shows you are observant of the labourers ' welfare and you see that they are properly clad instead of working in rags . I took care once to go in my car to interview these labourers and to find out if they had been promoted since this uniform . All this we used to see in the Republic and today we see it in the Transkei. We have also seen causeways and bridges built during your time and no-one
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but I suppose you realise the fact that there is a dangerous situation in that building. Waterpipes have been used to construct temporary railings along the steps , and these are not strong enough to take the weight of a human being bumping against them. At best the situation is really dangerous to the public , and a person may tumble over right down to the bottom because there have not been permanent strong substantial railings along the steps from the basement tothe first floor and along the whole building. You will also notice that the steps leading to the justice court from the cells , and the steps leading to the magistrate's court from the cells , are steep and dangerous , and there is no side railing. Now, the builders must have had adequate time to put these things right and we draw your attention to these dangerous points which may be eliminated if the contractors would only be pushed to effect these installations . Then again, I would like to refer to the multiplicity of makes of cars which are bought by your There are numerous types - all department. the cars manufactured in all the world in your fleet. May I know if this is really a wise policy to follow in purchasing vehicles for the Government, because in my view old cars may provide spares for cars still usable , and if you are going of all the cars assortment an have to manufactured , how are we going to provide spares to keep the cars on the road if and when spares are not available? I do suggest that the hon. Minister look into this matter and see whether or not the makes of cars cannot be reduced to six or seven, rather than the almost innumerable makes purchased by this department for the Government. Now, the Controller and Auditor-General's Report for the financial year 1968/1969 , page 15 ,
a reply in this regard. There seems to be an unsatisfactory state of affairs relating to rentals paid by employees for these buildings , and if we have not got the correct valuation of these buildings the Government may well be losing income on the rent, or may well be overcharging if there is no standard or accepted valuation of the property. It would appear, Sir, (I don't know whether to say "Madam" because the Chairman has rapped us over the knuckles for calling you "Madam " ) (Laughter) that your department has no knowledge of the value of the houses it owns ; that a rent register is not maintained. Is it not possible that somebody is living in one of the government buildings and is not paying a cent to this Government? Now, there is the question of the men working on the roads. These men complain that your department's policy is to reduce women cooks on the camps and that now they are compelled to divert one of the road labourers to the kitchen an altogether unsatisfactory state of affairs for these men who are on the road . I am not worried about the moral complications of this issue; I am mainly concerned about the inner man. These men complain that these male cooks are just raw tribesmen who do not know even how to cook an ordinary potful of samp; that the food is most unpalatable; that these men are unhygienic; that these men become aggressive and challenge these men to eat the food willy-nilly . (Laughter) I suggest that womenfolk should be reintroduced to cook for these men along the roads . Then again , the sleeping quarters of these men on the road : I went into one of these shacks on a windy day and I found it really miserable . This iron structure , is the corrugated which is not wind proof, it is very cold, it is very hot, it is very small , it has a small ventilation window. Is it not possible to provide something more comfortable than at the present moment as sleeping quarters for these men who are compelled to sleep at the road camp? Then I want to suggest that there should be greater supervision when a road is being constructed . You get gravel heaps to the left along two hundred yards , and then they continue two hundred yards to the righthand side of the road. A vehicle travelling along that road has therefore to swerve over to the right and then swerve over to the left to avoid these gravel heaps . I would suggest that these gravel heaps be placed on one side of the road , rather than on both sides of the road along alternative lengths of the road . Is it not possible also to provide lamps at night to warn motorists of these gravel heaps ? Probably you may fear we might take them to our huts , but I think it is well worth doing something about warning the motorist of the danger of these heaps. Is it not possible to have these gravel heaps outside the road rather than have them occupy a portion or half the road? How often has a motorist been travelling at a moderate speed when he finds a piccanin jumping over from between these gravel heaps without The last speaker any warning whatsoever. thanked you for dressing up your road-workers . I suggest that the idea is right but the compliment was undeserved. (Laughter ) I think these men should have some sort of reflector on their clothing, or a band with a reflector round one
makes reference to cars acquired by the Government for that year . There are 113 new vehicles which were bought at a cost of R267,446 , and you take that value and compare it with depreciation which is R246,590 . It seems the vehicles bought in value are equivalent to the depreciation for the year. I am concerned over the number of vehicles bought per year (113) and I am also concerned over the value of the new vehicles equivalent to the depreciation of vehicles already owned. Now, the footnote below those details indicates that a certificate should have been issued by the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development and by the Provincial Administration for the transfer of these movables to the Transkei Government, and on page 4 of the Controller and Auditor - General's Report we find that at the time of the preparation of this report this certificate had not yet been issued either by the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development or the Cape Provincial Secretary. In other words , your possession or your ownership of these vehicles which originally belonged to those respective bodies is not legal until that certificate has been May we know what the position is in issued. regard to this certificate which is imperative in terms of Proclamation 49 of 1969 ? We turn also to page 4 of this report and there we have a heading " Rent of Government Properties " . I made reference to this matter and I am hoping that the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works , now having been reminded of it, will give us 215 .
to the hon. Minister if she would give us some explanation on this point. Another complaint comes from the labourers on the roads, that they start work at 7 a.m. and only go for lunch at midday. Is it not possible for these people to start work at 8 o'clock, particularly in winter, because we all know that it is only just We know that in June sunrise at 7 o'clock? and July they start work at 7.30 a.m. , but it means they only have half-an-hour for lunch. We want the whole system revised so that they Ican start work at 8. If that can be done we will be very grateful to the hon. Minister. We also wish to remind the department about a road to It is only a short distance the Great Place . from Willowvale to Butterworth, but this road has received no attention. We request that the road leading from the town to the Great Place should now be put right from the road leading to Butterworth. The bus uses this road, but it is not available because of the condition of this This is a matter of long standing and road. we request the hon. Minister to look into the matter. A grader has been put on the road to the Great Place from Butterworth, but it is not working on the portion of the road that we are referring to. We are thankful that you are present and that you are the Minister of this department, because whatever request you place to the Republic receives attention. We know that the people of our sex are capable and we hope that you remain for a long time as Minister of Roads and Works . I will pay tribute to the hon. the Minister of Roads for the good work done and we request that she attends to our requests .
arm in order to reduce the possibility of accident. How often have these men looked no more than just a dark heap, or moving object, and before you know what is what a man emerges on his two legs and you don't know whether or not he is a labourer on the roads . May I suggest that your department concentrates considerably and positively on the reconstruction of the Transkei government roads . I do not know whether " sabunge " is really the best to use as underground structure for a road. It takes a long time to get impacted properly. It requires that the surface should be watered regularly so that it should settle down into a compact mass and one wonders whether gravel would not be the best, shall we say, substratum for the top surface of your road. This was my experience one day: I was driving at 50 miles It was a Transkei an hour along a road. government road and I found myself suddenly I had sinking into the surfece of the road. lost about 50% of the control over the car and I realised I had struck a " sabunge" patch along the road. It becomes a bit hazardous for the unwary motorist when he strikes a patch like that. If these are necessary adjuncts at road construction, will your department consider having detours when roads are being repaired or reconstructed? Well, there is nothing more to say as far as I am concerned about this department. I do not know what it is , but the men working on the road are keen to see the hon. the Minister of Roads now and again. (Laughter) Where is our Whenever I meet them it is : Minister? Well, I suppose the men will put I don't know what their motives it that way . are but they would like to see the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works coming around looking at them and showing, shall I say, a personal interest in their welfare . There will be no harm whatsoever, because your chauffeur will be driving you around. (Laughter)
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. A. JOYI: members , it has been said that since the Black people have been placed in this department all requests in regard to road maintenance and machinery have not been attended to. This is an indication that the person who manages this department is either lazy or has no interest. If that is not the case then the blame is not on the Minister, but on those who are under her control. Though they are under her, they still I have this request to make to control her. the hon. Minister of this department. She must not send truth away over a distance from here to Pretoria so that when we come to consult her we find the truth is still away, because when the truth is away she begins to cheat us. In the Xhosa language we say that the person who knows the road is the person who has used I have used some of the roads. that road. There is a road from Umtata to Engcobo which is stated to belong to the Government. When you get to Baziya Mission there is a road which leads to Mnyolo and this road is in a very bad state . It needs repair. Also on the road from Engcobo to Umtata there is a branch road a short distrance from Umtata , past Hillmond, which leads to Kambi forest. There is no bridge over the Kambi stream and I hope the hon. Minister I thank you, Mr. Chairman. will note that.
CHIEFTAINESS N.A. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works . She has done a good job and we are thankful also that where a project has failed she should tell us in the Assembly. In regard to the schools erected by your department, we are thankful to see the great number of schools which have been started by your department. We wonder whether it is not possible for the department to put up quarters for caretakers at these schools , because at some of the schools a lot of damage has been done when the schools are broken into. I know some people will think of the cost in putting up these quarters for caretakers , but I think the matter can be left in the hands of the school committees to decide how these caretakers should be paid. There is a complaint about promotion from drivers employed by the Roads Department, that it is difficult or impossible to rise from the position of driver to that of senior driver/ operator . The complaint is that there are quite a lot of people who have a great deal of driving experience , but who are illiterate , and that prevents them from achieving this • notch . Couldn't some concession be made for the uneducated drivers , because they cannot reach this senior post? We would be grateful
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. Our roads in the Transkei are much more improved that they were last time . This
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vision and by his resolve seems at the time like a major convulsion of nature , one which many mourn and at which some , it may be, rejoice , but at which all stand amazed . It is rather like the fall of some mighty tree whose presence all beholders had taken for granted and whose absence from the familiar horizon of man's daily thoughts seems at first almost Such a phenomenon impossible to accept. " was the involuntary departure from this world . of the late Mr. W.A.R.K. Grabe. Now, I come In the very first page to the policy speech. again I am led to believe, and I am of the contention that the object of the Department of Roads and Works is to do all services between the various departments of the Transkei Government. As such that department is not like a game which we play (it may be chess) in which if some mistake is made the forfeit is claimed. Ab initio I have to refer the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works to my seggestions that I made during the last session of this Assembly, when I was dealing with the policy speech of that department. I must tell the hon. Minister those were not mere passive suggestions without alternative action, and those are contained in the Hansard of last year from the middle of page 210 to almost the bottom of page 211. I would like to receive a statement from the hon. Minister as to what has been achieved thereanent. I have been to some of the roads in the Engcobo district . and I find that the condition of most of them and the state of repair still leave much to be desired . There are parts where doctors , for example , cannot travel to, whereas patients need their attention very much . In certain instances , in fact, there are places where there are clinics where the roads are untravellable . Now I would that it receives the immediate attention of the hon. Minister . I come now to the administrative department. I must tell the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works that in fact in that sphere we have not been very much apprized of the situation and I would that, in fact, we be apprized fully in that connection. For example, what is the position in regard to merit assessment in the roads section of the department? Take for example these road depots in the various regions . The responsible officer there is supposed to be , if I am correct, a senior roads foreman. What is the qualification There are of these senior roads foremen? first-grade clerks there under his charge. Can a man, for example , hypothetically speaking, who has passed Std . 6 give a merit assessment to a man who has passed matric , or even a degree course , for the purposes of promotion? (Interjections ) I am not perturbed by parrots who are, in fact, rare talkers in the debates . (Laughter) Now and again in the roads section I would that, in fact, roads foremen who have passed matric must be relieved of the duties of being foremen. They must come to the clerical staff of the department. I will come to sub-head F now, Furniture , Safes and Appliances . I quote: "This amount would have been decreased even more but unfortunately items offurniture ordered some time ago during the last financial year are still outstanding and when delivered will have to be paid during the current financial year. " I ask the hon. Minister why. I want an explanation, and it must be reasonable and beyond doubt,
department works better in rainy seasons because the roads cannot be worked properly with machines when the surface is dry. One matter raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was the question of accommodation for labourers on the roads , more especially the zinc huts . You will find that on occasions these huts are placed in damp areas and as a result the labourers become sick now and again on account of this situation, especially in the Maluti region where they experience hardship when there has been a snowfall. At times , too, when they are doing relief work, most of the people work in cold areas and some of them go barefoot. Could the department not see its way clear to supplying them with boots for that period? Moreover those people who work with tractors make furrows in the roads which are a danger to people's limbs, Could a circular not be sent to the magistrates drawing attention to this so that the tractor drivers should try to avoid such damage? People employed on the roads during the time of the Republic were paid very little, but since the inception of this Government they are better paid. During the time of the Republican Government they were paid 25c. And a loaf of bread MR. K.M. GUZANA: was 4d . CHIEF LEBENYA : Even if the bread was cheaper then, today is different from yesterday. MR. GUZANA : Yes , but the position has not been improved. CHIEF LEBENYA: Today there is not a labourer who is paid less than 85c . , and that is a person who is employed for the first time . MR. GUZANA : Where do you find that? CHIEF LEBENYA : So you can see the difference from the old days . I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 6 , Department of Roads and Works , was resumed . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate in connection with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works . In support of what has been said by the hon. members on this side I have to remark as follows, though unfortunately there is not too much flesh in the bones of the said speech. I see on page 1 reference to the then Secretary who is no more · that is , the late Mr. W.A.R.K. Grabe . I have to make the following remarks in support of what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has said in connection therewith: The other day I was reading the London Times and I made an extract from it. I feel that, in fact, it befits a man of Mr. Grabe's calibre to read the extract to this House . The said extract was entitled " The Passing of Greatness " and it reads as follows : "All the great men pass; all flesh is grass ; everything comes to an end , yet the disappearance from the administrative scene of a human being of more than normal human stature who has long dominated it by his
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shortest route from Emjanyana T.B. Hospital to All Saints Hospital. A bridge should be erected over the Gqumrana stream because the fords through that stream are very dangerous . People were trying to cross this causeway while the river was in flood and their car was swept away, because as you approach the running water there is slope so that you cannot reverse your car when you get to that slope , even if the river is flooded . I request you to see that those bridges are made . There is a certain bridge over the Emgwali River which needs repair . When you go towards Engcobo , just at the end ofthe bridge there is a bend and we wish that bend to be done away with because a number of accidents occur there. Another reason why we move the reduction of your salary is because it would appear that you took over this portfolio only with the object of dismissing the labourers . In your report we find that 51 people have been dismissed, ten were warned and 24 fined , and there are another 58 people who have been convicted by your department. Since you took over, 143 people have been put into difficulty. This action has been so harsh that there have been tears . We want to tell the hon. Minister that she must be a good Minister of Roads. You must not be a minister who is controlled by your own Secretary. You must control your Secretary. Open the door of your office to listen to those people who have been falsely accused of certain offences. Don't tell them when they appeal to you that the matter has been dealt with by your Secretary. Another thing in your department is that you say a foreman who drives a grader is paid less than an ordinary driver. Why is it so? We ask you to make the wages of all those people who supervise others higher than the people they supervise . We wish that gravel should be used on the roads , because if a road is only graded it means that when the rains come the soil is washed away, but with gravel the road becomes hard. Another matter you should give your attention to is when graders have been grading a road, the tendency is to leave ridges formed on the side of the road and when a car on that road has to take a deviation it meets difficulties because it is not high enough to go over the ridge . That is why I say the Minister's salary should be reduced .
as to why these articles are still outstanding. I come to page 8 of the report the increase in heavy vehicles transporting maize to areas where crop failures occurred . I want to know where exactly. Now I come again to the question of the classrooms (that is , building services) especially primary school classrooms and that building scheme of R1,600 per classroom. There are so many schools without classrooms in these territories and education is our only political safety. I ask the hon. Minister : Why not step up this amount of R1,600 ? I know that it is done on a basis that people should levy themselves and meet the department half-way. Why not step up this amount then, so that people can build because, after all , there is this drought which is a scourge , and thereafter the people reimburse the Government ? I understand that , in fact, most of the classrooms are uncompleted . They have cement floors and are without ceilings . How are our children going to learn in such You know the saying squalid conditions? "Mens sana in corpore sano" . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder how the hon. members feel now about this debate? It appears we have discussed it from almost every angle and I wonder if it is not time to move the amendment. MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment " That Vote 6 , sub-head A, in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R2,000 . " Mr. Chairman , the reason why I move this amendment is because it appears that the hon. Minister has not performed her duties well. Last session we made quite a number of requests for matters which should be done on behalf of the people. All we received were mere empty promises . One wondered why there should be such unfulfilled promises. We have had a statement from that other side that this Government is still in its infancy but when we count the age of this child we find it is seven years old. We note that at this stage this child must be cutting teeth, but why is it that it seems to show no development? Is it not on account of bad blood G the policy of separate development? (Laughter) The hon. the Minister of Roads should know that the roads are in a terrible state. For the second time today I am going to ask you that all the things to which we are drawing your attention should be accomplished. At the same time we must warn you not to make promises and leave them unfulfilled . We want you to put up bridges at those places which I will enumerate, and that you should put up shool buldings and not just be satisfied to tell the people when you are canvassing for votes that you will put up buildings , and then not do so, and that you should tell your colleagues in the Cabinet that they must cease the habit of telling people not to collect money because you are going to put up schools for them. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
MR. H.H.
ZIBI :
I second , Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF M.M. MSINGAPANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I feel I must also say something in regard to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works . I would feel very worried if I did not try to reply. The words of the hon. Minister are very important. On page 1 she mentions she is very sorry that we have lost Mr. Grabe.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , we are now dealing with the amendment. Thank you, Mr. CHIEF MSINGAPANTSI: Chairman. This amendment is not proper. Our Minister has explained what she has done . Our roads have improved and all that can be asked for is improvement on what has been done. I oppose the yearly remarks of the Opposition
Order, please .
MR. KUTU: There is a road from Emgwali 'directly to Engcobo and we would like a bridge to be erected there, and the road repaired between Emjanyana and Ngcacu because it is the 218 .
Frere, and at departmental level there was a promise that it would be seen to but nothing has been done so far. What is more painful is that there is at the boundary between Mount Fletcher and Mount Frere a plantation which feeds Mount Frere as a district with timber, and you cannot easily get to the plantation by road. In the Maluti region it is even difficult to get to the Great Places of our chiefs because of those roads . I am aware of a location that was recommended at Umtata level for the road to get fixed up so that a bus could be put on that road. At the moment they are using a van, but they could easily put a bus on this Dumasi route. I am aware that the Mayibuye Bus Service have actually to implore people to repair the road to Xongora because the road there is so bad. We also wish to refer to roadsigns . A good road is a road that indicates that you are approching a bridge (and most of our bridges are very narrow) or a danger point ahead of the motor. At times there are drainpipes along the road and they will sometimes end in someone's kraal site where they will affect the land, and that is allowed . Now, coming to the question of schools , people have had to levy their tribes because they were keen to put up schools to educate their children but a circular was released that they must forget about secondary schools. If anything, they must put up primary schools because this department would put up secondary schools for them. I know the department experiences difficulties in some respects , but the ordinary man in an administrative area is not aware of the difficulties you have in your department in so far as electricians or other skilled workers are concerned . There is also the question of roads leading to these schools , and I must repeat that we would like the hon. Minister to go round to all these regions because some of these roads are worse that the road you see between Umtata town and Ngangelizwe Location. In my region we have only one high school and if you saw the main road from Matatiele to Mount Fletcher going to Mount Aggrey, you wonder how people get to that school . I appreciate the idea of putting up the high and training school at Maluti , but this road is very bad. There is also the question of recreation and sporting grounds in the Transkei in which I suppose your department is responsible for putting up the stadiums and halls and so on, for the cultural improvement of the Transkei . The Transkei does need a recreation hall in every town or village , as well as a sporting or football ground with tennis courts and so on. Before my time is up , you did mention the point which we very much welcome - the question of having certain roads tarred , after consultation with the Republican Roads Department. You went further to mention when work would start on some of those roads , but there is Route 19 between Maclear and Matatiele through Mount Fletcher , and I would be pleased when you reply if you will advise us when operations on that There is also a question of road will start. water in our only secondary school in Mount Fletcher . When the department decided to put up a borehole we were very pleased when the scheme was changed and they decided to put up a few more tanks. These are fair enough when there is rain, but with the position as it
that they do not want this Government and the Minister's salary should not be reduced. Instead of that it should be increased because there is a lot of work to be done and it is necessary for her to travel from place to place . Take Umzimkulu, which is on the borders of Natal, and it is necessary for her to visit Umzimkulu as well as other places. We are expecting the Minister to visit us so that we may pass on to her requests from the people . It does not necessarily mean she must go there in person, because she has officials and we are also there. We have regional authorities in various places . Why do the members who complain about the state of the roads not make application to the hon. Minister? I think the hon. member is making a mistake in suggesting a reduction in the Minister's salary. He made a mistake in the first place by saying he had no confidence in the Government, and that is why he is moving this amendment which concerns our hon. Minister who is a respectable lady. I am thankful for the policy speech of the hon . Minister. I am satisfied with it and when I get home I will read it. MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I get into this debate I feel grateful in this that the promises of the hon. Minister have exonerated a member who was abused by other members a few days ago. They used derogatory statements against an hon. member very unfairly. One of these nincompoops referred to the said member as a "Crown Mines Induna", and one of these ninnies referred to this member as having lived on scraps in a European kitchen, and one of the idiots has been untruthful over the number of meetings in his own area. A ninny has got to be told he is a ninny so that he can learn to respect a class of individual . Today when we convene meetings , we convene meetings under Proclamation R.400 and say that there are always permits.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, we are discussing the amendment now. MR . ZIBI : This is a preamble, Mr. Chairman. These idiots were allowed to abuse a man and they are going to get it back . With due respect to you, Mr. Chairman, I will come to the amendment. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, are you making any imputation against the Chair? MR. ZIBI : I am getting to the amendment which I am seconding.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you imputing unfair treatment against the Chair? MR. ZIBI : No. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Well , you will have to withdraw the remark then. MR. ZIBI : I withdraw . Mr. Chairman, I have seconded this amendment because of the condition of the roads in the Transkei , as well as the position of the schools . We said last session that as much as possible the hon. Minister should go round the Transkei so as to be able to see the condition of the roads , and we emphasized very strongly that roads connecting different districts of the Transkei should be repaired . We made mention of the road connecting Mount Fletcher and Mount 219 .
is there is no water in those tanks . We would request most strongly, hon. Minister, that a borehole is put up in that place . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder how the hon. members feel about this Vote now? It seems it has been properly thrashed out and I should like to call upon the hon. Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : ready, Mr. Chairman.
for the gallery to see how I speak? I invite you all to go to the Elliot dale district to see what this department has done . I am known to each and every one in this department. I say the Minister's salary should remain undisturbed. You yourself last year wanted an increase in your salary. Why do you now want this reduction? We hope that this Government will do things according to requirements . Finally, when you walk you go step by step; you don't move your legs simultaneously. How will the Government manage to do things according to what you require now? Have confidence and ask the Government departments to do everything that The hon. Mr. Majija keeps on is required. talking about Engcobo only, and about no other place . If you come to Elliotdale I will set my dogs on you. In resuming my seat I oppose the amendment. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I support the amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary. It was
I am not yet
MR. S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to oppose the amendment and I think the mover has failed to introduce his amendment properly in such a way as could be understood. He failed because the amendment is weaker than the policy speech and I can see no reason for the reduction of the hon. Minister's salary . The hon. member for Mount Fletcher criticizes the condition of the roads but he is not a resident of all the areas of the Transkei. He also mentioned that there is something wrong in connection with schools and he spoke about Xongora road . For a man like me, who travelled to Lusikisiki last year , I found quite a lot had been done by this department. As far as the schools are concerned I will invite the hon. members to come to a feast at the opening of a school in Elliotdale and we have started a hospital in the Elliotdale district. I am mentioning these things under this department. I once complained about the road leading to the hospital and the road was repaired on the Elliotdale side but not on the Mqanduli side because the members from Mqanduli did not consult the department. Those people who support the amendment did not first consult the regional and tribal authorities in regard to the roads. (Interjections) I want to ask the Opposition if they think they are the only representative of the people . We are watching everything that affects our country adversely. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition asks why I have neglected the Mkataza road . I want to tell him as a respectable person that he is a representative of the people and he does not tell them what is required . Now I hope that as I have spoken this road will be repaired . We travel easily in the Elliotdale district as far as bridges are concerned . The Minister's salary should remain as it is . Since the start of this bill there have been amendments for the reduction of the Ministers ' salaries. I think
not my intention to speak today but on reading the Estimates , sub-head 6A, where "Other Staff" is reflected , I see the number given of those other employees is 658 and the money estimated to be spent on them amounts to only R2,500. I do not wish the Transkei Government to follow what was done under the White Government when the uneducated was given a wage to keep him in his own place . Wages paid to the uneducated labourer are very low and this does not affect only the Department of Roads and Works . It is most disgraceful to hear one say he is paid R12 or R14 a month, instead of R20 a month - a man who has perspired from 7 in the morning till 5 in the afternoon. Comparing the total salary of these people numbering 658 , it is less than the salary paid to the Minister . In fact, the hon. Minister's salary is double the total salaries of those workers. Imagine paying double the salary to one person against that of all those men who have families to support. Freedom must not only be enjoyed by the educated , but also by the uneducated . Let me pass on to the drivers who drive for the Ministers . Though these chauffeurs have to drive a great deal they still have a complaint as far as their wages are concerned. In fact, they maintain they have no scale where they can get to a top notch, but they are paid at a flat rate , yet in the workshop a labourer is told he must work until he attains a certain notch, and that is an attraction to a worker. Passing on to the garage which has been put up here, we were told that the cartage of these bricks from near Bloemfontein cost this department R177 a load . I believe those bricks are known as face bricks . It surprised me that such expensive buildings should be put up by a Government that has no money but is a recipient of donations - a Government that does not pay its employees but just gives them tobacco money, and then to go and put up an expensive garage just in order to keep a car ! Bricks could be made at Corana here . Even the houses which have been built for these Ministers are inferior to the garage which has been put up for those cars. Please think more (Laughter )
it would be a good idea to see that people are mixed up so that it is not only the elderly people , but the younger ones who introduce new ideas. During the days of the Bunga we were never told by the Bantu people about roads , but today we are told everything about the roads by a Bantu. Another thing is that the tribal authorities should be put on a good footing so that they can discuss matters with the Minister of Roads. There are chiefs on the other side who are heads of these authorities and I want to say this to them : If the tribal authorities talk about any roads , the Government is prepared to help. In regard to the road mentioned by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher · the Xongora road - I do not think there is a tribal • authority in that area. Who will introduce the matter to the Department of Roads except that it would be brought before the Assembly merely
sensibly. It is evident you are just being led. Now, turning to roads , we are very pleased to hear that the roads are going to be made
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every now and again people are going to touch Even before on this question of expulsions . I come to the question of expulsions , there is one hon. member whose contribution in the debate I would like to dismiss right from the outset. This hon. member (I think it is the hon. Mr. Joyi) made a queer statement to the effect that the truth had been sent to Pretoria. I still fail to understand what he meant by that. Maybe his philosophy was too high for a person of Anyway, I hope he will be my small mind. content when I say that he really said nothing and I will reserve a reply to the little he said till the truth comes back from Pretoria . I was further surprised when he said that in the department we tend to deceive people . I do coming to the his ever remember not
wider, but our request is that this habit of leaving the old road and opening a new road through the pasture land should be done away The with because of the scarcity of land . pretext is that this road is being made straight so that the soldiers will quickly be able to reach the coast. (Laughter) Where there has been a road the grass cannot grow again and that portion of the road cannot be reclaimed. Even if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture attempts to do so he will fail. What should be done, even if the roads are crooked , is just to make them wider than they are. The engineers who are skilful should try to see that after the quarries have been exhausted they should be made in such a way that they can keep water. Another thing the Government should encourage is the buying of bricks from local people so that it should not be necessary for bricks to be bought from Bloemfontein. In fact the question of that garage is a running sore, that starving people should have to go and deal with a matter similar to that garage.
department in person to make a request, or even making a request in writing. He was just coining that from the air. We must not overdo our play-acting for the gallery. Now , coming to this sore point about expulsions . Time and again I have found myself in the position where I have just had to take what I believe to be the right course. I must state I am no votecatcher; I do not care for cheap popularity. I always aim , and that will always be my aim , to do what I believe or take what I believe to be the right course . You are all aware that liquor is the scourge of the Transkei and it becomes more so if people who handle vehicles have to come to work drunk almost every day. It is not because these people are not given The mother in me is warnings to start with. It is only after severe warnings still there. that action is taken against a person. I want to repeat this because I mean it. I shall never harbour people in the department who, being placed in charge of vehicles , still continue drinking heavily while on duty even after they People have been given several warnings . who own cars know what a menace such people can be on the road . Such people are not only a danger to themselves , but are a danger to the public . They also expose the department to great financial drainage because of the accidents which occur to the vehicles , either in having to repair them or in having to buy new vehicles . I have since been made to believe by one of my colleagues that you once made a cry to the Government about this - that the Government was losing a great deal of money . In fact, I must report that ever since I took such a strict outlook there has been a slight change and I still hope it is going to be a great change . Then coming to those officers who do clerical work, you will find here we have people who are still very young and having a few coins in their pockets on payday sometimes goes to their heads and during the first week after payday they give us a lot of trouble . The department has been extremely tolerant respecting their age , but there are those cases wherein we felt that tolerance would not be bringing fruitful work to this department.
MRS. A.Z. MZOZOYANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am surprised to hear a man talking of miracles . In their own words they said they have seen the high standard of the work of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. Even the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a man who is used to leading people, today had nothing to criticize in the work of the hon. Minister. Here and there he was constructive. I rise up to say the salary of a Minister such as the one we have should not be disturbed. They themselves have admitted that they have a wonderful Minister in South Africa . I have not much to say because we are agreed in this House. Here and there there have been requests which we forward as people have suggested. In Maluti and other regions there have been requests which I will not repeat because I have the right to approach the hon. Minister with my complaints . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. There is nothing to MRS. MZOZOYANA : suggest that the Minister's salary should be reduced and I maintain it should remain as it is. What you have said is not tangible and , whilst you appear not to be supporting us , in fact you are doing so. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. the Minister of Roads to reply. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , first of all I must thank the hon. members who contributed in a constructive manner to the debate although, of course, I must say there are those people who by nature are stingy of praise . I was a bit disappointed to note that some of the hon. members (and that was common with the Opposition) tend to base their arguments on hearsay. We usually say that people who listen to hearsay are gossip-mongers and I think it would rather lower the standard of debate in this House if people listen to hearsay and , without verifying the facts , they come and use them as a base for their arguments . I happen to be head of a department which has quite a number of people in its employ and I always expect that
MR. K.M. GUZANA: You will agree that you have not sacked anybody who is holding a prescribed post for drunkenness ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , but you will find that at times a person becomes in221 .
ceiving consideration, but even if it takes four months we will go to that particular place , make investigations and then report to you. Coming to the point about Tsitsa Falls as a tourist attraction, the hon. the Chief Minister at one stage (I think it was the end of last year) made a request in connection with some of the areas you have mentioned and, following his request, investigations have been carried out - that is , preliminary investigations - and we intend having an extension to the road which will command a view of the Falls from the That will be a far superior view south side. because it will be nearer to the national road and it will be easier for the tourists to make their way there. Unfortunately, money is going to be the cause of the delay because there will have to be many streams to be crossed and they will have to be bridged. I must point out that, trully speaking, at the time when the investigation was carried out we did not have the tourist idea in mind and I think this will call for another investigation with the tourists Now we come to the question in in mind. connection with the building of schools . Yes , we have said that contractors are our problem and I think perhaps there will come a time when I have to crave the indulgence of the Cabinet However, some of to get them from Natal . given us trouble. have authorities the tribal You have perhaps a school or a number of schools having to be built in that area, the magistrate makes a call for tenders , contractors come up and then on some funny notion of their own, the particular tribal authority just does not want that particular contractor. I do not know how many telephonic conversations I had with the secretary of the tribal authority, I think under Chief Zulu, because they just did There was a not want a certain contractor. school and there was the money, but somehow or other they just did not want the matter finalized . The House is agreed on one point that as far as education is concerned (and the building of schools is part of education) politics should just not come into the matter, and I was perturbed to learn that the whole trouble was because of politics . That should not be.
solent in the department because of drunkenness; or a person after being heavily warned chooses to abscond, and that is often because the department was after that person due to his heavy drinking. I would be the last person to wilfully wish to deprive people of their bread On because I know how the African suffers . the other hand, I will try and wipe out some of the evils of the department, even if at the moment you might not thank me for my efforts . Coming to the people who are being led by their noses , I was never ever so amused. You know, I am still going to fight a battle to prove that this dress I am wearing is worn by someone with the mind and strength of a man.
MR. GUZANA : That is why I addressed you as "Sir" . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF ROADS : So you must not mistake the fact that I am a woman and think I am not capable of making my own decisions . Give me time and I will prove it. You know , some people are so used to leading their wives and there is never any mutual respect and agreement, and they think that everybody who is a woman is just led by the nose. I must tell you this I don't deny the fact that I do consult the secretaries in my department. I can't just bulldoze my way without co-operating with the people who work with me, but decisions happen to lie with me and I make my own decisions . I am only sorry for those who listen to hearsay. They had better come to my department. Now, coming to individual requests , the hon. member , Chief S.S. Majeke , seemed not to be pleased with the fact that in my policy speech I made mention of what we propose doing with some of the main and national roads in the Transkei. My department would really fail in its duty if it did not press for completion of some of the planned programme, and a start, as has been mentioned in the policy speech, is going to be made even with some of the roads · for instance, the Pakadi-Magusheni road . When it comes to the question of bridges being narrow and of low level , bridge-building in the Transkei started about 50 years ago and the Department of Roads and Works has handled bridge-building for only six and a half years. I would be speaking an untruth if I said the department is satisfied with the condition of some of the bridges G we are not, but we hope to remedy that. For
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Before you pass on, may I ask the hon. the Minister of Roads : I have noticed that most schools are put up on top of a hill far away from water sources. Is there any explanation for that, or is it really incidental, because when I look back 60 or 70 years I find that primary schools which actually developed into secondary and high schools were so situated that they were next to a perennial stream or fountain of water. What is the position?
instance, if you take our bridges and those built during those 50 years , there is a difference in Those which run over secondary the width. roads are 14 feet and those which run on main roads are 24 feet. Coming to applications by regional authorities in connection with either roads or bridges , you will find that there are always investigations which have to be conducted by the department before it can approve of a new road being started . For instance , they make application and say in such-and -such a place it would be wise to have a bridge , but before we agree we always make those preliminary investigations . And you must not say I am trying to hide behind a tree or something because I say that at times these investigations are held up , because we are short of staff. We just reply quickly that the matter is re-
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The community plays a part in the situation of the school. Thinking in terms of their fields and the rest, they tend to choose a site which is removed from those sources , but it is a position which we are keen to remedy. The other thing is that people are not so keen to give a lot of ground for purposes of recreation. I would that the members in their various tribal authorities would help us by making the people aware that when we build a school we are also keen to have
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a stretch of ground set aside for recreation and for sports grounds. Coming to the working hours , or the time at which the labourers start working, our labourers have official working hours a week - that is , 46 hours a week. They are still better off than those of the Republic , who work for 48 hours . Anyway, I don't say I am promising anything, but I will see if the position cannot be improved , depending on wheI would like to ther it will prove practical. comment on the wage side of it by saying that I will try to improve the wages , but that is something I can only do in consultation with my colleagues , and especially the hon. the Chief Minister, so I cannot say I am going to do it. Then there was mention of trucks used for carting maize to various places in the Transkei. It was really in respect of fodder that the trucks were used. Then the last request made was in connection with the road to Upper Nxaxa between Mount Fletcher and Qumbu. When the request was received, investigations were carried out and they resulted in the declaration of the road Etyeni to Nxaxo. If the hon. member feels he asked for more, then he should approach me in the department. Coming to the second speaker on the Opposition side , the hon. Mr. Singata, I must again repeat that he still belongs to the old school who think the woman can easily be led about. Anyway, when it comes to the building of schools I am just the builder, and my boss next door tells me what schools to build and he also expects regions to make applications . He cannot go about and find there is no school The scooters (I in such-and-such a place . won't repeat the questions because time is running out) were purchased at the request of the Department of Agriculture . When it comes to those people who qualify as carpenters you will find that this will apply to most of them. When they join the department they join it as beginners , and then they are given a trade test. When they pass that trade test they are employed as artisans and are paid accordingly. Well , when it comes to the cleaners , these , like the labourers , have to be employed for some 46 hours a week and if, as the hon. member said , they should be allowed to leave a little early does he expect us to come back the next day to As regards those people who dirty offices? were employed before the inception of our Gogovernment by the TTA, as far as I know they are paid R1 . Nobody is paid less . Should the hon. member know of some who are not getting that R1 he should report it to us and we shall As far as not correct that state of affairs . , I should holidays public the being paid for inform him that they are paid for the seven public holidays . Well , the question of roadsigns has been my worry too, and the worry ofthe department, and it is something on which we shall just have to act. When it comes to a request that the tribal authorities should be given the drainpipes , we are willing to give these ; only if at the time you make a request they are not available , then they are not available . Then the hon. Mr. Mnyila stated that the wages of ' the labourers did not appear on the Estimates. You will find that the labourers are attached to various sections of the department and thus they are included in the sub-head under which that particular labourer is employed . They are
paid 6.5c. an hour and they rise to 11c . an hour. Anyway, I had already made reference to this matter without making any promises. MR. 7 R.S. MADIKIZELA: Chief Minister?
Because of the
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No, we will consider our purse. Then coming to the contribution made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, when he made observations in connection with the roads and he made some suggestions . The suggestions he made are really contained within our specifications for roadmaking. All I have to do now is to make sure there is strict supervision and adherence to those specifications . He mentioned something in connection with the Justice building . The balustrades which had been ordered were unfortunately not the size we hade in mind. We are , however , awaiting those which were put under our specifications and in the meantime we shall see if we cannot strengthen the existing ones . Coming to the multiplicity of types of cars bought by the department, in fact the intention of the department is to try to use only two types - that is , for a number of people who use cars in the department. I think the multiplicity of types in the past, which is going to be remedied, was perhaps a step to find which model was serviceable in the department. Then various models of the different makes are purchased for the purpose for which they are designed, hence that brings about a change and we have to get something stronger for such-andsuch a situation. When it comes to the use of spares , we believe in selling our vehicles while they are still in running condition, not as scrap, because we feel it is more economical that way . He asked something about the depreciation of the cars and I think here, when we quoted depreciation, we were not mentioning the 113 cars . It is depreciation which involves 1,200 vehicles . we should have been explicit - that is all I can say. MR. GUZANA : Are you suggesting that the Auditor-General made a mistake ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : He was working on a report sent by us, so we might have been more specific . Mr. Chairman , I think in view of the time I should finish tomorrow. I move that the Deputy Chairman report progress .
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
The Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 19th May , 1970 . TUESDAY, 19th MAY, 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. 223.
these services (1) to the Government? (ii) to the Xhosa Development Corporation? (c) How much was reaped by these peasant farmers during the season 1968-1969?"
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 15: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : "(a) Whether the fruit growing and wheat projects are being implemented in the Transkei?
REPLY: (a) During the two ploughing seasons 1968 and 1969, a total of 150,000 morgen were ploughed under the Government credit scheme for ploughing . (b) (i) A total amount of R247,876 is the outstanding amount which the farmers still owe to the Government. (ii) I am not in a position to give the required information. (c) It is not known.
(b) In which districts ?" REPLY : The questioner's reference to "the" fruit and wheat growing projects is not understood. However, there are no fruit and wheat growing projects being implemented in the Transkei at this stage.
QUESTION NO. 16: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : -
QUESTION NO. 18: Mr. H.H.N. Zibi asked the Chief Minister:"(a) In view of the last increment to Ministers, what is the salary of the Chief Minister at present? (b) Now that the Ministers have official ministerial residences at Umtata, how much sessional allowance do they receive?"
"(a) How many cattle, horses , sheep and goats have died during the last two years of severe drought in the Transkei? (b) What is the total cash value of the stock losses ?" REPLY: (a) The Stock Census is compiled over a full seasonal year and covers the period 1st July to the 30th June . The figures for the 1969-70 year are therefore not available at this stage. The figures for the years ending 30th June , 1968 and 30th June , 1969 are as follows :
REPLY : (a) R5,200 per annum plus an allowance of R1,000 per annum . (b) R4.00 per day. MR. ZIBI: Arising from the reply, Mr. Chairman, if the definition of the Chief Minister is that of a Minister , where is the R400? The policy statement showed R800 for every Minister, so it seems the hon. the Chief Minister only got R400 instead of R800 .
Year ending 30th June , 1968 . (i) Cattle 123,192 12,427 (ii) Horses 306,357 (iii) Sheep 141,631 (iv) Goats
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Ithink I have replied to your question. Year ending 30th June , 1969 . (i) Cattle 237,071 21,165 (ii) Horses 568,838 (iii) Sheep (iv) Goats 257,575
QUESTION NO. 19: Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Education :"How many classrooms were erected of parents and committees in 1968 with departmental assistance?"
(b) (i) Estimated cash value of stock lost during the year ending 30th June, 1968, approximately R7,971,157 . (ii) Estimated cash value of stock lost during the year ending 30th June, 1969, approximately R15,025,243. (iii) Total cash value of stock during the two years approximately above R23,096,400.
REPLY:This is a matter for the department of Roads and Works . QUESTION NO. 20: Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of the Interior:"How many pneumoconiosis cases have we in the Transkei ?"
I wish to state very clearly that the cash value given is merely an estimation and also that all the deaths cannot be attributed to the drought because even in normal season a high percentage of stock losses occur not necessarily as a result of disease.
REPLY:There are at present 7,806 Pneumoconiosis beneficiaries in the Transkei.
QUESTION NO. 17: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
QUESTION NO. 21: Mr. R.S. Madikizelaasked the Chief Minister :"What are the special advantages for the Legislative Assembly meeting regularly every year during the months April - May June as against any other season of the year?"
(a) How many morgen of land was ploughed under the Government ploughing scheme? (b) How much do peasant farmers owe for 224 .
REPLY:The sessions of the Legislative Assembly are not dictated by seasons of the year but in terms of section 54 of the Transkei Constitution Act, (Act No. 48 of 1963) an Appropriation Act has to be passed and assented to before the 31st of May each year . In order to do this it is necessary for sessions to commence not later than about the middle of April each year. In this way the estimates are prepared as late as possible in the financial year to ensure as much accuracy as possible. QUESTION NO. 22 : Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Education: "(a) Why in February , 1970, was a teacher transferred within a period of 4 weeks : (i) from Nqabara Secondary School to Jalamba ? (ii) from Jalamba to Nqabara? (iii) and finally from Nqabara to Jalamba? (b) How much did it cost the Department in the form of transport expenses to effect the transfer ?" REPLY: (a) The exigencies of the Service demanded the transfer of the teacher concerned. (b) R54. I might add that all this was done at the initiative and with the consent of the teacher concerned. QUESTION NO. 23: Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Education: "(a) Is the Department aware that the principal teacher of Jalamba Secondary School has deserted the school for over fourteen days and to date has not reported for duty at the school ? (b) If so, what is the position obtaining now since the said teacher has admitted misconduct with a pupil at the Jalamba Secondary School ?" REPLY : (a) Yes. (b) The matter is sub judice ; steps are being taken to appoint an acting principal . APPROPRIATION BILL : SUPPLY
COMMITTEE OF
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House now sit in committee . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Isecond . Agreed to. House in Committee The Minister's reply to the debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works , was resumed . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , mention was made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as to the question of cooks at road camps . Although he
said he was not referring to the moral side of it, a change in the type of people employed as cooks really arose from the moral side of things and thus when vacancies occurred due to the resignation of the female cooks we thought it wise to have male cooks taking their place . However, in view of some of the points he raised I think I will have to reconsider the matter and also have a kind of talk with the people and tell them how I expect them to behave in the camps . That can even be done by way of a circular. He also made mention of the unsatisfactory condition of the sleeping quarters . We have also become aware of that and towards improving the conditions , this is what we have embarked upon : My department is now manufacturing a superior and much more costly type of portable hut. It is lined with timber, it has a wooden floor and glass-fibre insulation. Of course, if the occupants could only open the windows there would be more ventilation. Now, coming to the question of gravel heaps along the road, the department tries as much as possible to keep those heaps at one side of the road, and it is only where this is impossible that you have them on both sides of the road . He also made mention of the fact that there should be provision whereby there are warning lights at those gravel heaps. What I know is that there are reflective danger signs atthose gravel heaps , and these are clearly visible both during the day and at night. In addition to that, we In splash the gravel heaps with whitewash . connection with a question I answered yesterday, I noticed when I read the Daily Dispatch that I might not have been as clear as I meant to be - that is , in connection with the multiplicity of cars in the department. I have never mentioned the fact that the department is buying a particular make to try out in the Transkei , and on top of that I would like to add this - that when we buy these cars we buy them in terms of a government contract and we try to limit our models to two manufacturers . As I said yesterday , they are purcahsed to suit the purpose for which they are required . Then the hon. the Leader of the Opposition repeated a question he had asked before about the situation in connection with rents for government property in the Transkei . The reply I prepared for this is as follows (I will have to start a little way back ) :The Government Service regulations made provision for an officer to pay rental at certain percentages of his salary, or at a certain percentage of the valuation of the property as assessed or re-assessed by the Department of Roads and Works , whichever was the lowest. This meant that three rates of deduction had to be taken up on the master cards , but this difficulty was not insurmountable . The difficulty lay with the provision that rental could be paid at a certain percentage on the valuation of a property as assessed or re -assessed by the Department of Roads and Works . As long as this regulation remained in force , officers could ask that the properties rented by them could be valued or revalued as they were entitled to pay the lowest rental and one had no means of comparing the rates until an assessment or re-assessment had been carried out. The department of Roads and Works simply did not have the staff for valuating all the properties, 225.
will bother myself much about his remarks. There was nothing really constructive about them . All I can say is that the aim of the Department of Roads and Works in putting up buildings is durability. We want buildings which will least a long time . We cannot afford to waste our government funds by putting up buildings which last for two years and then putting up another one. You would be the very first one to criticize that. Then there is something else which did not crop up in the House but which I feel I should inform the House about. We have what we call the emergency classroom scheme . This , as you know with classroom schemes , has been divided according to primary and secondary schools . People from an area where the particular schools do not yet appear on the Estimates can, if the need arises , apply for a fund under the emergency scheme. This aid is of the amount of R60 per classroom that is , in respect of the primary schools - and usually, instead of giving the money, the department usually supplies the materials but they usually last up to five years if they are strongly built. On the other hand, with the secondary schools the amount is up to R2001 0 per classroom. I think I have covered everything that was touched upon by the members .
therefore representations were made to the Treasury and the Public Service Commission to do away with the stipulation that rental may also be paid on the valuation of a property. After inter-departmental discussions , the representations were eventually referred to the Cabinet and a decision about the matter was arrived at during April , 1970 , in terms of which the houses were classified in two categories . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will ask the hon. members of the House to discontinue reading newspapers in the House. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The effect of this was that rental deductions from now onwards were made on a percentage basis of the tenant's salary, the category of the house, Imust add, being the deciding factor , the good houses falling under Category A, and the not so good under Category B. I must also add that the department sees to it that they are all kept in a good state of repair. MR. K.M. Category C?
GUZANA :
None belonging to
No. Under THE MINISTER OF ROADS : as follows : rental the have we A Category Rental in repect of towns and villages - 10%. Still under A, in rural areas it is 7 %, and then for those houses falling under B in all places it is 5%. That is the position.
MR. GUZANA : May I remind you of one ? I had requested a statement relating to the issue of the certificate in terms of Proclamation No. 49 of 1969 relating to the transfer of vehicles to this Government, and seeking to know whether or not that certificate had been issued by the Secretary of the Provincial Administration and the Secretary for Bantu Administration and
MR. GUZANA : Can we say then that the control over rents has reached a stage sufficiently satisfactory for audit purposes , or can we say that is still to be so?
Development respectively as, according to the Controller and Auditor -General's Report for the year ending 1969, the certificates had not yet been issued.
We thing it THE MINISTER OF ROADS : has. A question placed by the hon . Chieftainess Sigcau was in connection with having caretakers ' quarters in the schools . That is something my department can do nothing about until we have had authority from the Department of Education. Then the hon. member for Engcobo asked some questions too, and I find that I would not waste the time of the House by going into all these details about the administration of the department. If he is interested , or any other member is so interested , I will always make these details available for them to study in their own time. The same applies to merit assessment. He
I must say THE MINISTER OF ROADS : that the department was careless in that we did not see to the issue of the certificates , but we will correct the matter. Mr. Chairman, I think since what I have given is more or less an educative reply the hon. members will accept the Vote and the hon. Mr. Kutu will prove further honourable by withdrawing the amendment. I move that Vote 6 be adopted. (Laughter) THE MINISTER EDUCATION : I second .
can also please himself by reading those. Then the hon. member for Mount Fletcher wanted to know how long the route from Maclear to Matatiele municipal commonage via Mount Fletcher would take . I can furnish him with the information that there are two firms engaged in the surveying and planning of this route . One firm is doing the Maclear - Mount Fletcher section while the other is doing Mount Fletcher- Matatiele section . The planning of the latter section has progressed so far that tender documents for its construction are now in the course of being drawn. In regard to the contribution made in the House by the hon. Member for Umtata , I think that he is a person who is so engrossed in the affairs of Umtata that he never thinks of other places . As far as he is concerned an order of bricks only means the putting up of Anyway, I don't think I buildings in Umtata .
Amendment put and negatived. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Iput the question that the schedule , as amended , stand part of the bill. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I am a bit lost. I thought we were on Vote 6. There is no amendment to that.
THE DEPUTY amended .
CHAIRMAN :
Vote 4 was
MR . GUZANA : I think the position is that we have not yet had Vote 6 put to the House. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I put the question that the schedule as amended stand part of the bill .
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Ordinance, 1965, passed by the Cape Provincial Council, applies only in the "White spots " of the Transkei ;
Agreed to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is a consequential amendment in Clause 1 of the bill.
(b) to repeal the Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , as this measure is regarded by some legal advisers as being ultra vires , the tax being considered to be an indirect tax which does not fall within the scope of paragraph 1 of Part B of the First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act;
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, Mr. Chairman, we still have to deal with the clauses of the bill and I want to deal with the amendment. Now, Vote 4 was amended and the total figure which has to be spent by the Government comes to R26,511,000 . Now, I want that we amend Clause 1 of the bill to read as follows : " That the Transkei Revenue Fund is hereby charged with such sums of money as may be required for the services of the Transkei for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1971 , not exceeding in the aggregate R26,511,000 . " That will also be the case in the schedule to this bill . Vote 4 will be amended with an additional R250,000 , making the total R26,511,000 . I move the amendment accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
(c) to amend the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , in order to regularize the payment of certain revenues to the treasuries of tribal and regional authorities and to empower regional authorities to levy a rate upon each resident of the region who is a taxpayer, irrespective ofwhether tribal authorities in its area of jurisdiction consent thereto or not; and
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second .
(d) to amend the Transkei Taxation Act, 1969, in order to , inter alia , bring the Afrikaans text of sub- section (1 ) of section 10 into line with the Xhosa and English texts .
Clause 1 put and agreed to.
Clause 2 put. Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. GUZANA : members , I don't want to be fussy about this , but if I remember correctly Vote 6 was not put We pointed to the House and agreed upon. this out previously and the House did not seem to accept this , but I think we should have this regularized.
Mr. Chairman, I do not think it necessary for me to discuss the individual clauses at length at this stage , as they can be discussed more fruitfully in the committee stage. At this stage we are only concerned with the broad principles of the bill, but if there are any aspects about which more information is required, I will gladly furnish further particulars . I move that the bill be read a second time.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I now put Vote 6 for the amount of R4,878,000 to stand part of the schedule .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I second.
Agreed to. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hou. members , I have come to the conclusion that the Transkei Government has slipped into that very convenient rut of having what is known as the General Laws Amendment Bill. (Laughter) It would appear that here we have amendments relating to four sets of enactments . We accept the fact that in view of the Provincial Administration having withdrawn the ordinance relating to auction sales the Transkei Government should fall into line . Then we must ask ourselves the question as to whether there is sufficient legal consultation before bills are brought before this House when we find ourselves having to admit to the whole world at large that we legislated upon a matter upon which we should never have legislated. I refer to this need to repeal the Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , because it is considered ultra vires . This Act was passed as long ago as 1965 and it is only six years later that this Government comes to a realisation of the fact that it blundered . What has been done under this Act which we now amend which may well have been to the disadvantage of the public ? I ask that question . Has anybody suffered any loss by reason of the fact that he has had to comply with an Act that is ultra vires ? Has any revenue accrued to this Government by reason of this Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , which is ultra vires ? Ifwe admit it is ultra vires we might
Clauses 1 to 4 of the Appropriation Bill put and agreed to. The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1970 , has been passed by this committee with one amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the third reading will be tomorrow morning. TRANSKEI FINANCE BILL : SECOND READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this Finance Bill is introduced to deal with a few matters affecting the Transkeian Revenue Fund and which could not more appropriately be included in other legislation . The purpose of the bill is briefly: (a) to abolish the tax on sales by auction in the Transkei as described in section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , as the Abolition of the Auction Sales Tax
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hon. the Chief Minister will assist us with a translation of "die belasbare inkomste ontvang deur of toegeval aan... " etc. , so that everybody may be brought into an intelligent understanding of the substitution.
as well admit the duties and obligations that have been imposed upon the public in terms of an invalid Act and admit it in the open and reimburse those people. Sir, I am worried over the principle which seems to be infiltrating into the financial resources available to the tribal authority. I notice that here the Government seeks to legislate on all sources of income which might have been tapped by the tribal authority so that we should have proper auditing of their funds , but I am worried over the fact that the headman who is the head of a tribal authority, the chief who is the head of a tribal authority, is going to lose some of those perks which attached to his position and went into his pocket without doing anybody any harm . THE CHIEF MINISTER : any?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Look up the Act. Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is anything much to discuss on this second reading stage. We shall deal with these clauses when we come to the committee stage . This is just a short bill. I think the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition are noted. I move that the bill be read a second time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE:
Can you mention
I second.
Agreed to . The bill was read a second time.
MR. GUZANA: I am thinking of a man saying a " Thank you" to the headman for all services rendered. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the committee stage of this bill will be tomorrow. CREATION OF A NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP : TEMBU TRIBE : MATYENGQINA TRIBAL AUTHORITY : UMTATA : HEADMAN ALBERT BAM BILANGA NXEKO DALINDYEBO.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , that does not fall under this at all . It must not be paid in advance . MR. GUZANA: Or saying " I thank you" for services to be rendered .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : hon. members , I move :-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In anticipation? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , that is bribery.
(1) THAT WHEREAS the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has , in terms of sub- section (1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963 ) , resolved
MR. GUZANA : I do not agree because you pay dowry before you marry a woman. Are you bribing her father now? My contention is that the headman at best is receiving a very small pittance and customary gifts and payments I submit should go into the pocket of the headman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : payments .
that a new chieftainship be created in respect of the Tembu tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority in the Umtata district and that Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo be designated chief thereof;
There are no such
( 2) AND WHEREAS this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei ;
MR. GUZANA : I see that you have said "all fees , rates and charges which, in accordance with custom , are payable to the tribal authority" , so that you accept the existence of this customary payment. I am referring to those sums of money which come to the hands of a headman without a taint of bribery or corruption.... THE CHIEF MINISTER:
Mr. Chairman and
(3) NOW THEREFORE in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub- section (2 ) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability (a ) of creating a new chieftainship in Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority in the Umtata district, and
What are they?
MR. GUZANA : .... just as much as I can come upon you and say : For services rendered here is R2 . It would appear that now the headman must be very wary as to what gifts his subjects give him and he might well be receiving just R10 or R18 a month by way of a salary from this Government. Now, this matter will probably be canvassed as we deal with the bill . Here , Sir, you again seek an amendment of the Transkei Taxation Act, 1969 , in so far as the Afrikaans version is concerned . We do not know whether this is necessary because the translation into Afrikaans is deemed to be wrong, for it may well be that this section is being introduced in order to convey the same ideas that are conveyed in the English and the Xhosa versions . I do hope that when we get to the committee stage , the
(b) of recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Headman Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief.
Mr. Chairman, before I say anything about this I would like this amendment to be regularized - that is , the deletion of the word " Mtirara" wherever it appeared in the original motion. I am doing this at the request of the Paramount Chief of the Tembus , together with the person concerned. 228.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment.
to an end the accusations from the Government side that we wish to destroy chieftainship . We have agreed to this in our regional authority so how can we therefore kill a king? Although we are commoners we look after your interests .
Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , Albert Bambilanga Nxeko Dalindyebo is younger brother to the Paramount Chief of the Tembus and has been headman of Xwili administrative area · that is , Administrative Are No. 21 in the district of Umtata, since 1st February, 1959. He is the heir of the "qadi" house of the late Paramount Chief Jongilizwe Dalindyebo. Subject to confirmation by the State President, the Dalindyebo Regional Authority in consultation with Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo has now designated Headman Albert Bambilanga Nxeko Dalindyebo as chief in the district of Umtata with jurisdiction over the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Matyengqina Tribal Authority with approximately 1,250 taxpayers. He is presently the head of this authority which covers three administrative areas . In the Umtata district there is no chief as distinct from a sub-chief except the Paramount Chief. The greater clan of the Tembus , the Amahala , which is of direct descendancy of the Royal Family, has no chief whereas in districts such as Engcobo and Mqanduli the Halas have appointed chiefs who come from minor houses to that of the Dalindyebo Royal Family. It is therefore considered very necessary that a chieftainship be created in Umtata district and that Headman Albert Bambilanga Nxeko Dalindyebo be elevated to the position as he has already been regarded and recognized by the Tembus as a chief in the district for many years . It may interest the House to know that he is the only headman who is in receipt of a special headman's allowance of R400 per annum . This was made because of his position in the Royal Family. This headman is well respected by the Tembus and in all respects considered suitable to be designated as chief. With those vew words , Mr. Chairman , I move the adoption of this motion by the House.
Motion put and carried unanimously. The Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we shall now deal with Motion 18 on the agenda . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know how we are to proceed seeing the motion does not appear on the order paper for the day. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I wonder if he is satisfied, because we were answering questions appearing on page 167 this morning so that when we have finished with Motion No. 9 we proceed to No. 18. REPATRIATION OF TRANSKEI FROM REPUBLIC
CITIZENS
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak to this motion to the effect:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability that when Africans are repatriated into the Transkei , consultation with the Transkei Government must precede such repatriation to enable the latter to accommodate the repatriates in gainful employment in the Transkei . " Mr. Chairman, this motion is of a piece with the regulations under influx control - bad laws as far as the people are concerned , which deprive them of their rights . THE CHIEF MINISTER: rights?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is no difficulty about this matter at all. The Paramount Chief of the Tembus intimated in this House that he personally supported the motion. I am very pleased that this has happened with such mutual understanding and without any differences . You will realise that the Paramount Chief's action shows how broadminded he is because he regarded the matter of the royal blood as being above politics . We know as well as the Paramount Chief knows what the political affiliations of his younger brother are, (Laughter ) but just as the Almighty will send His good rain to fall on the good and the bad, so the Paramount Chief has supported this matter. If he were the younger brother of the hon. the Chief Minister , should we then say he is the younger brother and be satisfied? As the hon. the Paramount Chief of the Tembus has supported this motion and I am speaking on his behalf today , I apologise for his absence . I am also thankful for the amendment as far as the surnames are concerned. We on this side of the House feel this motion should be adopted unanimously, and we hope this will bring
Where are those
MR . JAFTA: These laws make the Black people appear as slaves in the country of their birth. We would have those rights in the whole of South Africa . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do they in fact have those rights ?
MR. JAFTA: These weak people are made to live under such bad conditions which are quite opposed to the principles of Western culture and civilization . Western civilization does not permit such a weak race to receive such treatment . These people are being driven out of the Republic and repatriated into the Transkei and some of them do not know a single person in this territory . Some of them were born in Cape Town, others in Johannesburg and some are from the Ciskei. These people had found worthwhile employment in the areas from which they are being driven away. I happens that a man loses his job with a big and important firm and we feel this person should be given
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an opportunity to acquire some other work. He then starts looking for work in various He finds work and when he has been firms. promised the job he waits to see if a Coloured man will be given the job in his stead . It may happen that such a Coloured work- seeker is found and he is given preference and gets the job. This is a common occurrence in Cape Town. Hon. members will realise that these people obtained good employment where they were paid satisfactory wages .
Transkeian citizens from the Republic should not be effected unless there is suitable accommodation and employment in the Bantu Homeland of the Transkei. " The amendment aims at the protection of those who are repatriated to the Transkei. I am thinking of a man who no longer has a home to which he can go and which he can call his own. It may well be that the repatriate was born in an urban area after his father died and he only knows of this homeland from hearsay but he has never seen it. It may well be that his father who actually owned a home left these parts many, many years ago and that there is not even a hut on this deserted homestead, nor is there any food on which he can depend. He is a human being, not an animal which can live on grass , so it is only proper that these provisions be made before the Republican Government repatriates an individual . We in the Transkei are faced with the problem of employment for the citizens of the Transkei and we are short of land which could be allotted to those people so that they may make a living. These people should not be taken away from their employment and repatriated before it is ascertained that there are suitable opportunities for employment and accommodation. We know that our people depend for employment on areas outside the Transkei . Furthermore, it is only right and proper that the Republican Government should give these people time enough to pack and see to their belongings as they have lived in those areas for a considerable time . Their repatriation should not just be done overnight, where people are taken to the police station and locked up while their belongings are exposed to all types of weather. I also believe that the Republican Government should assist in the cost of repatriation because some of them are repatriated whilst they are out of employment . Perhaps some of them are in employment, but such employment should not be used to pay for their repatriation . I now close my speech, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is common knowledge. Just deal with the question of consultation in your motion. MR. JAFTA: Then you find these people are now landed in circumstances which are very unpleasant. The man is ordered to leave and is sent to the Transkei . From time to time these men find themselves without any employment in the homelands and are thus compelled to go on contract. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : discussing the motion.
You are not
MR. JAFTA : A man who had a paying job is now forced to go under contract to the mines. The aim is that the number of Black people in the urban centres should be decreased and it is a very bad situation as far as our people are concerned. We cannot do anything to stop this repatriation and that is why I have brought this motion before the House so that there should be consultation between the Republican Government and the Transkei Government in order that a person who is driven away from the Republic should be provided with employment in these territories . It is inhuman to take a person who had employment and repatriate him to a place where no provision has been made for his livelihood. For that reason we have introduced this motion that there should be consultation between the two Governments . (Interjections ) We have all brought this motion. I don't know what you think should be done for the people in these circumstances . It would appear that even here in the Transkei there is going to be a place where these people will just be collected and dumped as has been done at Sada , Mnxesha and other places . Conditions such as these are most unhealthy and create grief and sorrow. The motion is quite clear and beyond all doubt . We seek that there should be consultation between the Republican and the Transkei Government so that when these people come to the Transkei they will receive a welcome and be provided with work and enjoy good salaries . That will eliminate theft and " tsotsiism " , but if people are without work they are a burden on society. I thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: second the motion.
MR . S. MOSHESH : I second the amendment.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make the following remarks as I seconded the motion by the hon. member of the Opposition , Mr. N. Jafta. I also notice that the amendment which has been introduced by the mover is as similar as a figure 5 to a sickle . If I have made a mistake in my comparison I could say they are as similar as a figure 7 to an axe. We don't want people to be driven out at all from their employment . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why didn't you say so in your motion? Don't bark, you are not MR. MGUDLWA : dogs . We have come here to consider matters affecting the people . We are representing them and must be serious . We must not be like boys who have attended the " isitjadu" . If matters were proceeded with in our own way people would not be caged up in boxes and loaded in trains , accompanied by guards to come to their homeThis sickness is caused by the policy lands . of separate development.
Mr. Chairman, I
MR. R.E. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to move an amendment that all the words after the word "advisability" be deleted and the following words substituted : "of approaching the Republican Government and making representations that repatriation of 230.
Minister does not understand me. People are being repatriated to this country ... (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Tell him to speak to the motion , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. MGUDLWA : What we should do in this world as men of affairs is to see that people are not exposed but are protected and sheltered . Just imagine a man leaving his home because of difficulties and starvation at home to go and seek work elsewhere . Some of them get employment and one is unlucky and does not get a job · he is told because of some 1945 Act.
MR. MGUDLWA: We cannot be likened to an antheap which can be thrown down anywhere. A person must be provided with a place in which to stay if it becomes necessary that the person should be repatriated . Surprisingly enough , there are absolutely no reasons whatsoever for the repatriation of these people because these people did not go to other places for purposes of.... (Interjections ) Would the hon . the Chief Minister be pleased if he should be removed from here to Bushbuckridge ? I don't even want the people to be repatriated . Why must they be repatriated? All the people know that people are repatriated daily and there is no accommodation for them and no work. Are they going
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I would appeal that when motions are dealt with hon. members should stick to the motion. The motion says there should be consultation between the two Governments when the Transkeians are repatriated from the Republic . That is the matter which must be discussed under this motion . I am appealing to you to keep all these members in order, Mr. Chairman .
to feed on the wind? (Interjections ) I am not objecting to anything; It is the amendment which is against the motion.
MR. MGUDLWA : Nonetheless we know that the Chairman knows his job. You are not the head prefect and we are not schoolboys . I will continue although I know he wishes to interrupt. The people we are speaking about in our motion are suffering severe hardships whilst you are What is a great worry comfortably at ease. is the manner in which these people are bribed to get these people away. They are just packed up and sent to their homes . If it were not for this manner we should say these people should not be repatriated at all , but that is taking place now, judging by the conditions . What we require , therefore , is that there should be consultation and after the Republican Government has made its own utterances the other Government replies and then they will talk the matter over and an agreement will be arrived at. I have already said this amendment is introduced merely because the Government side wish to say they have introduced an amendment. I appeal to the House please to consider this situation. One man might have absconded from his home a long time ago and is now in Cape Town . I remember one man from Engcobo who said when he was asked what his clan was that he had been told he belonged to the Qwati clan but he did not really know to which clan he belonged . When asked where his home was he replied he did not know as he had never been there . He stated it was only his mother and father who would know that, but unfortunately they had died a long time ago . Just imagine circumstances such as those ! Where must this man go? Just through
THE CHIEF MINISTER : vote against the motion.
We are going to
MR. MGUDLWA : I am not the kind of person who likes to call pretty things by ugly names . With those words I support the motion and I understand the hon. member for Kentani also supports the motion . CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the I am very pleased to be able to amendment. speak after the two people who have spoken who did not say what they were told to say by the Opposition. The implication of the motion is that these consultations should be held, but our amendment objects to such a state of affairs . I do not know whether they fail to understa the interpretation of things they bring in here, or whether they are just bringing something they know nothing about. After reading this motion you would expect it to have been brought by a wily person who can turn as a will -o ' -the -wisp but judging by the way the mover has set out his motion he belongs to the class of people You will who want to puzzle other people . believe that what he says is true but he is just hiding behind words . The manner in which they have worded their motion is similar to the way we handled our objection to influx control , but now we cannot help it - we just have to accept it. I should be on guard against his motion because his intention is to mislead the hon. He thought that the members of the House . Government would say these consultations should What he seeks in his motion is be allowed. something that is being done at present by the Republican Government which consults with the magistrate in this regard. He is now putting the Government into difficulty when he says that we should see that provision is made for employment in connection with those repatriates . I say so because there are many people who are unemployed and have no employment in the Transkei . You have heard that the Government states that before any action is taken the necessary steps should be taken to see that these people will have accommodation and employment. How are the people going to come here because
the sympathy of one person who called upon this man when he heard he was from the Qwati clan, this person said : Come , let us talk matters over . Remember, it was during the winter when these people spoke and this man took him to his own home . Remember, it was winter . Take note of that. This person had only rags for his clothing and he was barefooted . Just imagine people being taken home in that manner . What can be done for these people ? If this could be achieved it would be my desire , but knowing that we are just nonentities as far as the Government is concerned ... ( Interjections ) I say these people should be allowed to remain where they are because that country is the country of their birth. Probably the hon. the Chief 231 .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think in order to be clear on what we are about the hon. members must stick to the word "consultation" and tell us what it means , because that is where we differ.
the people who are here are already meeting difficulties ? Not long ago we applied to have more land but even in the paper we find letters from people who pretend to have a lot of knowledge about such matters . If I were that member I would ask where Mqikela was when this land was sold by Nqwiliso , because Nqwiliso was on the other side of the river and that side was under Mqikela. I don't know when Captain Harris went up the river and left the land he had to guard and crossed over to Mqikela . We on the Government side will never associate ourselves with the repatriation of people . We don't want places similar to Sada and Ilinge to In those White areas people are be created .
MR. MAJIJA : The Chairman will not be misled by people who want to put us off. The hon. the Chief Minister went to Cape Town once and told the people they must come here because he will find them work. (Interjections) When the Chief Minister returned the people came and they were arrested . He had told the people he would make representations so that they would get work but he just ran away from Cape Town and the people were arrested . This is the question asked by the people : Was it the aim of the Chief Minister to have these people arrested and then repatriated ? You know know also that last year we had a motion to the effect that those people who are away at work centres and their contracts have expired should be allowed to remain there until their contracts have been renewed. That is indicative of the fact that we have never at any time wanted people who are away at the labour centres to be returned home. Imagine, these people who are being repatriated are moneyless and they are escorted home . They are given a bed by their relatives , they are clothed by their relatives , given food by their relatives and they also cause trouble by pick-pocketing other people because they want money. Others ask for assistance for "lobola " because they realise that a man who remains here must have a wife . Where will the cattle be found, seeing that the cattle are dead ? Yet there is a need for a wife. There is a drought and the people who are already living in the Transkei have nothing to eat. The Transkei Government has a relief fund to assist those people who are starving, and now the Government wants to add an additional burden by accepting people who are being repatriated and bringing them to the Transkei where they will find no employment. When will this Government realise that it is better to allow these people to remain there instead of bringing them here to give us more difficulties ? One of the hon. members across the floor says there is no place for them to stay and no employment . I say there is accommodation and there is employment in the labour centres . The only thing is that the employment is reserved for White people and for Coloureds . I advise the hon. member to visit the labour centres where there is employment. He should not just remain at Magusheni . I support the motion that there should be consultation . I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
being driven out from where they stayed and they go along the road and sleep at the side of the road at night. When you ask such people what is the matter , is there no accommodation at Sada and Ilinge , they say they have been told that the places are full up and those people who are being driven out of those areas don't even They were born in know their grandfathers . the places from which they are now being As your motion states there should ejected . be consultation and we say " No" , where do you say we should place these people as they have no accommodation at Sada and Ilinge? As we have introduced this amendment we are bargaining with the Government of the Republic to release some fresh areas for us . (Laughter) A wolf who is going to stand up as soon as I have said down should cease from attacking the amendment and must discuss the motion. (Laughter) MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the motion from the Opposition . On this side we say there should be consultation with the Republican Government and that people should not be repatriated without provision being made first in their homeland . There was a good regulation to the effect that if anyone had remained in an urban area for a period of fifteen years he should not be repatriated to his home . It was a well known fact then that if anyone remained away from his home for fifteen years that person no longer had any interest in his homeland . He had no land and no relatives . How is this man to make a living at such an advanced age? The Government will demand taxes from that individual . Everyone knows that even this year people have been locked up for failing to pay their taxes . It is our own policy that a person must be entitled to stay anywhere in the Republic and there should be no such thing as one area for the Black and one for the Whites and other people . The reason why conditions are like this today is because we accepted separate development as a result of which it is now stated that all the Black people should remove to their homelands . I am not saying anything about the political chameleons who change their views from day to day. There is not one person here who does not know what was said by the hon. the Chief Minister when he stated that his people should return to the Transkei where they would find employment. When you compare the wages paid to the employees you will find an unskilled labourer here is paid R10 and in the Ciskei he gets k18. If such a man is repatriated how is he going to make a living ?
MR . S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the amendment moved by this side of the House . I was sorry when I heard all that was said here because people act as if they are children who do not listen to what is being said. The amendment moved by our speaker is quite clear and it explains what its object is , because there are two kinds of people who are being sent to this I am area by the Republican Government. referring to repatriates , because some of those
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people are repatriated on account of their bad habits and as a result they are sent back to their homelands and when they come here they find they have no homes and no relatives , because they were born in the urban areas. In such cases the Republican Government always consults with the magistrate. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : vernment?
be? If he had received no assistance wouldn't he today be a murderer, killing people in the Engcobo area on account of starvation , or going around stealing people's blankets on account of cold? This amendment is aimed at obviating Please that kind of thing in the Transkei. realise that you do not frame your motions correctly and we are doing so for you. We are not opposed to the principle of your motion , but the wording is not correct. That is why we are trying to rectify your motion. The Government will consider this amended motion because you are doing exactly what the Government is doing with the Transkei people . No person may leave the Transkei before he can satisfy the Government that he can get employment in the Republic . That is why we want consultation, in order to obviate all these difficulties .
Not with the Go-
MR. MOSHESH : It would appear the hon. member does not know the magistrate is a representative of the Government. MR. MADIKIZELA : I know that, but why not consult at a higher level? MR. MOSHESH : The mover ofthe amendment has stated quite clearly that accommodation and employment should have been available and that arrangements should be made before they are repatriated. It is similar with us in the Transkei because you cannot go to those urban areas unless they are satisfied you can get employment. If there is no permission for employment you may not go there . As I have already said , there are two types of people who are repatriated to this country. Some of them are people who have set up businesses in the urban areas and they are sent back here to come and uplift us in our own areas . This amendment also provides for such a person so that when he leaves an urban area to come and conduct business here he should know his own area, then on arrival here he will be able to make arrangements with the tribal and regional authorities . He will know exactly where he is going to conduct his business and his money will therefore not be wasted whilst he is still waiting to make such arrangements . There are people who make application to conduct business , but now and again you find their applications are turned down because there are already people conducting businesses in that area. There is provision that a notice shall be published in the Gazette calling for objections to be filed within 30 days , and one of the reasons why we have introduced this amendment is so that when a man comes to the Transkei he will not be faced with difficulties . It looks as if you are the chameleons to my mind, because you say your policy is that they should not be sent to the Transkei but that there should be multi- racialism . Why don't you advocate that they should remain in the Republic , if you say they should not be repatriated? You agree with our amendment in many respects , but merely to let the world know you are on the Opposition side you raise objections to what we are trying to do. Is it not a good thing for us to correct your motion here and there , because we want your motion to go to the Government in a plain and unmistakable form ? Your arguments are like those of boys , because we feel for these people and all we want is for provision to be made for them in order that they may make a living. Those people who are repatriated come home sometimes on account of their bad behaviour . The hon. member for Engcobo stated that someone who was repatriated to that district only got assistance and accommodation from someone because he was of the Qwati clan. If you came across this Qwati man what would your reaction
CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to be able to speak during this seventh year ofthe Legislative Assembly. I thought I would speak even during the debate on no-confidence in the Government. However, we have passed that stage . Firstly, I have to explain that the matter which we are now discussing has been discussed here before. We spoke about the ill -treatment of our people in those areas and you did not understand that because you are compelled to follow your policy of separate development. In fact, it is an old policy which was followed by the White people. Our people go up-country suffering from hunger in view of the payment of taxes , which means they have nothing with which to meet illness , and when they arrive in the labour centres they are arrested and told to go back to Matanzima. He was , and he still is , the person who said this road should be followed this road of separate development. Because of this policy some of our people have been repatriated , notwithstanding the fact that we wanted them to remain there , and where are they now going to obtain employment ? Are you expecting freedom , or are you awaiting the destruction of the people? In the beginning you said , and the hon. the Chief Minister said , that all the White people should leave this country and when the Democratic Party spoke to you you introduced zoning and you agreed that the White people should not be driven out. I wish to make this clear to you, that Dr. Verwoerd who introduced this policy had foresight. When he saw something bad happen at Sharpeville and Cape Town , seeing the dead bodies of the Black people lying on top of other corpses , he realised it was a very bad situation because the people were trying to have their own people enjoy their own freedom , not independence .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, I think you must discuss the motion. CHIEF M.H. NGCONGOLO: on a point of order....
Mr. Chairman,
CHIEF MABANDLA : The Chairman has already addressed me. Sit down. You don't know anything. Mr. Chairman , I thank you for perceiving the idiocy of some of the members of this House , because we realise there are people who have a defective sense of hearing. 233.
It is my interest that all these people here should hear what I say and I have a big voice because I am accustomed to attend big meetings . We have already stated that when these people are being repatriated they should be repatriated only when provision for accommodation and employment has been accomplished. It is for that reason you find a lot of delinquents , when these people have no employment. I can see through your attempt to join our columns but you are not doing it in a straightforward manner. You fear to state clearly that this is what has always been preached by members of the D.P. , but nevertheless you are just repeating it. The chiefs here should not mislead their own Black people . It is for that reason that you chiefs here are being guarded, in order that your counsellors should not excel your performance of duties in their own work. I have been telling you for a long time that I will never be guarded because I speak the truth. Even now I go to Johannesburg, Cape Town and anywhere without being guarded and I am quite happy. When you face the truth you will realise that when our people are repatriated they should be able to acquire accommodation and employment, they should acquire land. If a repatriate is being repatriated after he has absconded , the Government should also give financial assistance . This is a complaint of people at our homes , that when these people are repatriated who is going to be responsible for the feeding of those people , seeing they have never had any help from their relatives while they have been away? I can appreciate your difficulty because it lies within your policy and because you aim at oppressing the Black people . When separate development was introduced our own people received severe ill-treatment, but this situation does not surprise me because it is said : Send a thief to catch a thief. I fear for and I sympathize with those people because they say they have come here to represent the people , but what they are doing is to cause them grief.
we always get letters from the magistrate inquiring whether we are in a position to accommodate old people from the urban areas. People who are repatriated are mostly old people who are absconders . At times we are in a difficulty of not knowing those people because they went to the urban areas many years ago and they find when they come here that they do not know their homes and they have lost their relatives . On many occasions you will find that their lands and kraal sites have been re-allotted. One speaker said that all these difficulties have been experienced since the inception of the Government, but I think by accepting separate development we became recognized as the Government of the Transkei . That is why we say the two Governments , the Transkei and the Republican Governments , should consult each other about repatriates , because we know that those are our people who absconded many years ago, therefore they cannot be thrown away whilst we still exist. We know that people of the Transkei and people from other districts have been working in the Republic and some of them are so used to life in the urban areas that some of them cannot even inspan an ox. However , these people are registered in their various constituencies . That can be supported by the Opposition, because they keep boasting that those people voted for them. We know that in the urban centres the people always cast their vote on behalf of the Opposition, and that is why they are here today. That is a fact that cannot be disputed by anybody in the House. The amendment is to the effect that there must be consultation before these people are returned and consultation enables this Government to make provision for those people when they are returned. The Opposition is very much opposed to influx control which enables people to work in the labour centres and at the same time enables them to return to their homes . According to law, after the expiration of their contracts they should return so that they may not become absconders but should support the Government of the Transkei . It is therefore encouraging
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , the main issue here is consultation.
people to become absconders so that there may not be a boundary between the Transkei and the Republic. Actually, I feel that this motion should not have come from your side , because you say you believe in multi- racialism . If this motion comes from your side and speaks about consultation, it would be a very bad thing indeed because up to now you still don't believe that the Transkei is our own country as Bantu people. You still don't believe that this House is the Transkei Government building and you call it "Nomgogwana " .
CHIEF MABANDLA : I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was trying to give you an explanation. To show you that the Government members are not interested in this issue , they are the ones who are making a noise . I don't know why they have come here. Mr. Chairman, this is our country. We have never crossed any sea but have come from this continent. You are historians and you know the White people came from across the sea. THE CHAIRMAN : canvassed that point . down.
CHIEF MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman, I want to put this question to the speaker : Do you want your people to acquire homes and employment when they have been repatriated?
Hon. member , you have I think you had better sit
CHIEF MABANDLA : wished to state .
I have stated what I
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is trying to waste the time of the speaker because he was given enough time to speak . He knows perfectly well that what he is asking is what is contained in the amendment .
CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in support of the amendment moved by this side of the House and I am opposed to the motion by the Opposition. The way this motion has been framed is what is practised in our own district , because
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. 234.
CHIEF MOSHESH: Mr. Chairman, I thought I was speaking on the amendment moved by our side of the House.
perchance go to a railway station like Queenstown you will find a crowd of these people coming off the train, not knowing where to go. It is for that reason that we say in the meantime , while this law is still in effect, people should not be driven away without suitable provision As these people are being made for them. being repatriated they have no arable allotments , no accommodation, no money nor food. Even the one who is told his home was Engcobo or Umtata, that person does not know where his home is. I think if the hon. members on the Government side had realised the difficulties of this matter they would have first consulted with the Republican Government for the withdrawal of the influx control law. We have introduced this motion because the repatriation of people is being carried on now. We therefore request them , if in fact and in truth they represent the people , to vote in favour of the motion.
CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.... THE CHAIRMAN:
Order, please . Sit down.
CHIEF MOSHESH : The Opposition should speak to their motion. I don't support the motion by the Opposition side at all. I repeat that I stand here to support the amendment made by the Government side . This side of the House has a feeling for those people of the Transkei who are in the urban areas. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : please be quiet.
Will the hon. members
CHIEF MOSHESH: With those words , Mr. Chairman, I support the amendment.
The debate was adjourned.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, judging from the mushrooms which are springing up all over from the opposte side of the House I feel that the members are now very much tired and in any event there is not much time for another speaker, so I move the adjournment of the House.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 20th May, 1970. WEDNESDAY, 20th MAY , 1970 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am sorry but the official time to adjourn is 5 o'clock.
NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But the adjournment can be moved by a Minister. THE CHAIRMAN : oppose .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in terms of rule 145 (a) I hereby give notice that I will , on 21st May, 1970 , put before the Assembly proposals to raise funds by way of a tax on immovable property situated in the Transkei. This proposal shall stand referred to the Committee of Ways and Means .
But I still have power to
MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in support of the motion by the hon. member for Qumbu. There was an aim when this motion was introduced, because in 1964 there was a motion from our side for the repeal of the Influx Control Act which caused people to be removed from the labour centres and sent to the Transkei . As far as I can observe , this motion and the amendment are as similar as a person saying there are twelve sheep and another one saying there are only a The reason why we indozen. (Laughter) troduced this motion was that the regulation which forces people to be nepatriated from the Republic to the Transkei has not been repealed . We bring this motion because we have seen people being repatriated and just sent to the Transkei without having any accommodation. Most of the people who have been repatriated are the children of certain parents who were living in the labour centres and after their deaths the children were repatriated . When they come to the Transkei they have no place to live . Our object is to give protection to those poor people. The Government now wants to say that it comes from the Government side that these people should be allowed to remain in the labour centres and not be repatriated , and their policy is that of separate development, as a In result of which people are repatriated. support of this motion, Mr. Chairman, if you
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL THIRD READING
:
1970
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the bill be now read a third time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I second .
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI FINANCE BILL STAGE
:
COMMITTEE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now convert itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second .
Agreed to. House in Committee
On Clause 1 235.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, before moving the adoption of clause 1 of this bill I would like to make a short explanation. As auction sales tax had an adverse effect on the producers of livestock and other agricultural products , the Cape Provincial Council decided to abolish the tax and the Auction Sales Tax Ordinance , 1944 , (Ordinance No. 7 of 1944 ) as amended , was consequently repealed by the Abolition of the Auction Sales Tax Ordinance , 1965 (Ordinance No. 7 of 1965) with effect from 1st June , 1965. The aforementioned Ordinance is, in terms of section 37 ( 3) of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963, not applicable in the Transkei with the result that Auction Sales Tax is still payable in the Transkei as described in section 2 of Act No. 48 of 1963. In other words , it applies only to the Transkei towns and it does not apply to the Reserves outside the towns . Now, this situation causes widespread dissatisfaction and confusion , and as it also complicates matters administratively it is deemed expedient to abolish the tax in the Bantu areas also in order that uniformity may be reached in the Transkei as a whole. The loss of revenue which will result from this measure will be less that R3,000 per annum . I move the adoption of this clause . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR :
MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, we would like to express ourselves satisfied with the words of the hon. the Chief Minister, only we wish he could have given us the figure involved in terms of the amount we are giving up, but it appears that his arithmetic does not reach that far.
Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I hope that after making my explanation notices of amendment which have been given by the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , will be withdrawn. I will explain in particular clause 3 (2) to which he has referred. Section 52 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, required that certain taxes, levies , rates , fines , etc. , which, before self-government, were payable to tribal , district and regional authorities, should be paid into the Transkeian Revenue Fund . This would have created unsurmountable administrative difficulties and, besides this , it was obviously never the Legislature's intention that the lower authorities should be deprived of their traditional sources of revenue by the central Transkeian Government. Contrary to this provision in the Constitution Act, the lower authorities were in actual fact allowed to retain their revenue sources and when
I second.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , we on this side of the House are happy with the explanation given by the hon. the Chief Minister with regard to the adverse effect ofthis measure .
this Assembly passed the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 (Act No. 4 of 1965 ) , it sought in section 56 of that Act to regularize the position and to condone past action in this regard, pending an amendment by section 52 of the Transkei Constitution Act by the Republican Parliament. The necessary amendments have now been made to the Constitution Act, making it possible firstly to repeal the provisions in section 56 of Act No. 4 of 1965 , which were intended merely as an interim measure , and secondly to include in the aforementioned Act up to date provisions for revenues payable to the treasuries of tribal and regional authorities . I am sure the hon. chief now understands the position and that he will withdraw this amendment.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 2 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, coming now to clause 2 of this bill I should like to make a short explanation. It was considered that the legislation passed by the Republican Parliament in 1965 to amend the Stamp Duties Act , 1962 (Act No. 59 of 1962 ) did not, in terms of section 37 ( 3) of the Transkei Constitution Act, apply in the Transkei as described in section 2 of the Constitution Act , and the Transkeian Legislative Assembly accordingly adopted the Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , in order to eliminate any confusion and to ensure that complete uniformity is maintained in the White and Bantu areas of the Transkei . However , according to some legal opinions which have since been obtained , stamp duty is an indirect tax which does not fall within the scope of paragraph 1 of Part B of the First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act. In the circumstances , Republican legislation in connection with stamp duties , so it would appear, applies throughout the Transkei and the Transkei Stamp Duties Amendment Act, 1965 , which is regarded by some as being ultra vires , should now be repealed to put the matter beyond all possible doubt. I hope that is clear .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after this explanation I wish to withdraw the amendment. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman, in connection with clause 2(a) , all fees , rates and charges which in accordance with custom are payable to the tribal authority, I would in fact that a full explanation be given to the House because I am not clear as to what these rates, fees and charges are . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member, having been a clerk in the Department of Bantu Administration and then the Transkei Territorial Authority and thereafter this Government, should know that the chiefs' courts have their own fees which are paid in terms of Native law and custom . For example , when a person goes to court and institutes proceedings he has to pay a "vulinkundla" fee. Now, those fees are charged in terms of custom and they vary according to
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: What is the amount involved? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that clause 2 be adopted .
236.
the different courts. Not all fees are the same. Now, the tribal authority may have certain rates to be paid by the tribe and those are payable in terms of custom and they vary according to Native law and custom. Do you want me to give you the fees of your tribe ? I am a Hala and I will not be able to give you the Jumba fees.
no jurisdiction whatsoever in criminal matters · that is , statutory jurisdiction . They have jurisdiction to try criminal cases arising from Native law and custom but if a chief tries a statutory case it is a question of law and on appeal he can only be told by the Appeal Court that he has no jurisdiction to try such cases . Normally the chiefs try these cases and the accused, when convicted , does not appeal . Now, you should let sleeping dogs lie . ( Laughter) These cases are cases which should come before the police .
MR. MGUDLWA: I will be satisfied if you give me the rates of the Hala tribe. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : For example , there may be certain rates for certain buildings which belong to the tribe. Those rates have got to be paid into the revenue account. For example , in Butterworth you have what we call the complex that belongs to the regional authority and all the rates being paid on those builings are paid to the Fingo Authority. Any charges which are paid by the tribe are included . I cannot tell you what they are. It is only that tribe which could tell you that. For example ,
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, in section 3(2) (b) I would like the hon. the Chief Minister to explain in regard to civil matters where a man has cause someone's daughter to become pregnant and this person claims a customary fine to the value of five head of cattle or their cash value . When the defendant in that chief's court or tribal court has paid five head of cattle or the equivalent value , there is an extra beast which he has to pay which, it is said, goes towards the costs of that court. We know about the costs incurred in court but I never come across costs amounting to the price of a beast. (Laughter) The difficulty arising out of this extra beast is that when the defendant appeals to the Bantu Appeal Court this beast figures nowhere and yet it was stated that this beast represented the costs in that chief's court. Could these costs amount to the value of a beast?
the tribe might decide to collect money which is not gazetted . Now, in order to keep proper finances they have got to put that into the revenue fund of the tribe and pay the expenditure out of the tribal fund properly, otherwise the money should be in the pockets of the secretary or the head . That is clear, is it not' MR. MGUDLWA: What about charges? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I have told you.
That is what THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Fortunately for me , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member across the floor, Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa , has got an old man as his father who should explain custom to him and I would request him please , instead of interrogating me about Tembu custom, to go and ask his father . In any event, I will attempt to reply to him although I think his father would I will explain Tembu give a better reply. custom because I do not know the customs of other tribes . In terms of Tembu custom whenever a claim by the plaintiff involves beasts (that is , head of cattle ) a beast must remain at the Great Place from the judgment debtor as costs. That is the custom, and that is why you find so many counsellors lying around the Great Place. They are expecting to get a beast from the chief. (Laughter) Now, we cannot explain custom . We were born and found the custom like that but in cases where there is no beast involved , then the court calculates the costs in terms of the rules which are provided for in the chief's court. In cases of adultery , pregnancy and estate claims a beast must remain and be appropriated by the court for costs , and if you want to change the custom don't ask me about it. You go to your regional authority and call upon them to try to change the custom . Customs vary among the tribes . Other tribes have different customs but I am trying to explain the custom which applies to me and the hon. member across the floor . I think I have sufficiently explained it. When the matter goes on appeal the claimant usually claims all the cattle which were attached from him by the chief's court and if the judgment is given for the appellant with costs , then it means that that beast has to go back to the judgment creditor. The messenger of the Bantu Affairs Commis-
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , I wish the hon. the Chief Minister would give motivation on clause 3 (2 ) (d) and also give an example of a bye-law. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : In reply to the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Lewis Majija, section 8 of the Transkeian Authorities Act reads as follows :"A tribal authority may make bye- laws for regulating the proceedings and for preserving order at meetings of the authority or any committee thereof, with power to exclude offending councillors ; or prescribing fees for services rendered by the authority, or rates payable by any specified class of persons in respect of services made available by the authority; and generally in regard to any matter within its purview in terms of section 4. " Now those are the bye-laws . MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in regard to (b) of the same clause , mention is made of fines and fees collected by the head of the authority . Sometimes there is misunderstanding between the ranger and the tribal authority when a ranger has received instructions to impound stock which has trespassed. The fines he has to collect are referred to the police , but the difficulty now is which is the correct and proper place for the fines to be paid? To the tribal authority or to the police? I wish this matter to be explained THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I would not like to go into the interpretation of the law which grants jurisdiction to the chiefs , but I want to remind you that they have 237.
Act, 1965 , are that taxpayers resident in the area of jurisdiction of a tribal authority which has imposed a rate on them are exempt from any levy which a regional authority may seek to impose on the taxpayers resident in its area of jurisdiction, unless the tribal authority concerned agrees to the imposition of the levy on its taxpayers . The object of this enactment was to ensure that taxpayers would not be abused by regional authorities . This protection has never been used , possibly because no regional authority has sought to levy a rate. Now, the position is this - that a regional authority has sought to impose a rate and finds that two authorities in its area of jurisdiction already have levies and are not in favour of the extension to them of the regional authority levy. I should explain this position in order that you should understand. Suppose the Mtakatye tribal authority has levied a rate on its taxpayers within its area of jurisdiction for a certain number of years , and the Nyanda regional authority decides to impose a levy on the whole area of Taking Nyanda for a certain specific duty. advantage of this section, the Mtakatye tribal authority would say: No, we have our own levy and we are not going to pay the regional authority levy. The regional authority could just do nothing about it. Now, we have the same situation which I will explain later on. Should the regional authority proceed with the levy which, incidentally, is favoured by the majority of the tribal authorities in its area , the taxpayers in the areas of the tribal authorities which have had a levy imposed would be exempt from the levy at the expense of the other taxpayers . Now, my department is encouraging tribal authorities to impose small levies for certain periods in order to have regular incomes to meet administrative expenses such as salaries of their secretaries , etc. As all the tribal authorities impose levies on the taxpayers under their jurisdiction, it will mean they will be exempt from the levies of the regional authority unless each authority consents to the levy. Now, we feel that this difficulty must be removed and in order to be specific I would like to say that we have this trouble with the Gcaleka Regional Authority now, and I hope that the hon. members of this Assembly will try to solve this problem and agree with my department that it is necessary to amend this section in order to give the regional authority a right to impose a levy on the taxpayers within its area of jurisdiction. It will not stop the tribal authorities from levying their subjects ; they can go on with their imposition of levies , but regional authorities should also be free to impose a levy for a duty which is for the whole tribe.
sioner's court will go and attach it. MR. MGUDLWA : But it does not figure in the particulars of claim . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , but if it says "with costs " that is what happens . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : This beast applying particularly to the Tembu people , is it reflected in the books of the tribal authority as fees ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , it is reflected . Mr. Chairman , that beast is usually sold and the proceeds of the sale go into the revenue of the tribal authority. MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to ask a question in connection with this beast, because at present there are these authorities , yet in previous times that beast belonged to the Great Place . Now, there are these two courts - the tribal court and the Great Place. What about if this beast is not allotted to the tribal court but is left in the Great Place ? This is my object - that this beast should not be sold so that the money is paid over to the tribal authority, but it should be left in the Great Place and slaughtered and eaten. As the position is , these counsellors who stay at the Great Place are not going to eat the meat of the beast but the beast is going to be paid over as money into the tribal treasury . These counsellors at the Great Place will therefore not get any benefit from the beast when it is paid over to the tribal authority. For that reason the chiefs have been deserted by their counsellors because the counsellors do not have anything to eat. It is right that they should eat. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Although Ido not find any reason to reply to this , I think as a joke I must just make a short observation and advise the hon. member to approach his paramount chief. We have here a statutory Act which applies to all the authorities in the Transkei. In any event there is nothing to stop a tribal authority from employing counsellors to look around the chief's place. They can employ them and pay them, then those counsellors will go and purchase cattle with the proceeds oftheir earnings . Now, the chief is part of the tribal authority and you cannot divorce him from the tribal authority. As a matter of fact, he is the tribal authority with these counsellors around him . They can decide on anything in so far as this is concerned , as long as their decisions are not ultra vires the provisions of this Act. They can decide to pay the chief, to pay anybody, provided they do not exceed a certain amount, because we would like to see that some of this money remains for the benefit of the tribe .
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman , I would like some further explanation in connection with this matter about the regional authority and the tribal authorities . Sometimes the tribal authorities have their levies imposed already. How, therefore , will this levy which is to come out of the regional authority affect the tribal authorities? Would this be the same where there is no paramount chief, because some ofthe regional authorities have no paramount chief?
Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I would again like to make a short explanation about this clause 4. The effects of sub-section 14 (3) of the Transkei Authorities
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The reply to 238.
Clause 5 put and agreed to.
this question is very easy and simple. Suppose the people of Qumbu decided to put up a big high school and the Government was not in a position at the time to start that building. It is the duty of the people of Qumbu to put up the buildings in anticipation of assistance by the Government and they decide to approach the regional authority, because the tribal authorities cannot deal with such matters . They will approach the regional authority to impose a levy on the people of Qumbu. They might decide to put up a maternity home or a small TB settlement - anything that the people of the district or the region Now, I am giving you think should be done . examples but I do not say the people of Qumbu They might decide to put up a will do that. community hall for the Qumbu district and they cannot have a levy unless they approach a statutory body, and the only statutory body which can impose a levy for that is the regional authority.
On Clause 6 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the motivation given in clause 3 applies also to this clause and therefore it is not necessary for me to have to reiterate what I have already said . Mr. Chairman , by the way, there is an amendment to clause 5 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Yes , there was , but it was the same as that referring to clause 3 and the mover is absent. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He intimated to me that he was satisfied . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : ment falls away.
So the amend-
Clause 6 put and agreed to. MR. JAFTA : Do you mean the three districts - Qumbu , Mount Frere and Tsolo?
On Clause 7
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Afrikaans text of sub-section ( 1) of section 10 of the Transkei Taxation Act , 1969 , ( Act No. 8 of 1969) does not correspond to the Xhosa and English texts and this clause has been included in the bill in order to put the matter right. This comes
Clause 4 put and agreed to. On Clause 5
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, surely I do not need to make another explanation. The explanation I made in relation to clause 3 covers this clause.
from the experts in my department who know Afrikaans and they are the people who are in a position to compare the English , Xhosa and Afrikaans texts . As far as I am concerned I know nothing about the Afrikaans text but I have to That is all I can say to bring it before you. you. It is only the Afrikaans experts who will come forward and say this is wrong. As long as I put these sentences before you you must take it they are quite correct. (Laughter)
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in clause 5 (2 ) it says sub- section (1 ) shall be deemed to come into operation on the 11th day of February, 1966. Do you mean to say that the matters which we are now discussing will be taken retrospectively to February , 1966? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : planation do you want? It is clear.
There is an THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : amendment to this clause by the hon. Mr. N. Jafta that the Afrikaans version of the clause be rendered in English and Xhosa respectively.
What ex-
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , the reason why I put this amendment is because I could not follow what was contained in the Afrikaans language .
MR. MAJIJA: What does it mean when it is said these matters which we are discussing today should have effect retrospectively? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is the date on which these authorities illegally approWe are priated these funds to themselves. legalizing their illegal actions. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But this is not an amendment . You are merely seeking information . It does not amend the clause at all.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think what worries the hon. member for Engcobo is in connection with the moneys which have been collected , a lot of which have never been accounted for . Can those people who misappropriated those moneys be traced and found? If so, how can they be traced?
I would like an explanation MR. JAFTA: to be given as to why we are given something which we cannot follow or understand . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I am surprised that the hon. member from Qumbu should ask this question because all the Acts which go through this House are in three languages and he has never had to question the translation of the Afrikaans or Xhosa texts . Now, if there is anything wrong in the texts in which these bills are put it must come back to this House again. The experts in Afrikaans have brought this back to us and told us this
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The effect of this sub-section is to regularize the funds which have been deposited in the regional authoWe are not aware of moneys rity account. which have gone down the drain. I move the adoption of section 5.
239.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Becuase some clauses are retrospective you want us to be retrospective too. We have passed clause 3.
is not a correct text in the Afrikaans language . Whether you understand it or not it is not our "indaba" because you passed the Act with that text yourself. You should have questioned it on the day you put the bill through. If you want to find the meaning of any words , ask me the meaning and I will give it to you. ( Laughter) I move the adoption of this clause .
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am referring to notices or proclamations which have been repealed. There is a notice to the effect that if a chief sits over a certain case a charge of R2 will be paid and thereafter R1 for each day of the hearing .
Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : affected .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, with regard to clause 8 I would like to make a short explanation. Seeing that the power to levy a rate of not exceeding R2 in any one year is , with the approval of the Minister , vested in tribal authorities and regional authorities in terms of sections 5 and 14 respectively of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , the words " special rate " have become superfluous where they appear in paragraph (d) of sub-section ( 1 ) of section 42 of the Transkei Taxation Act, 1969 , and it is accordingly desired that the words should be deleted. I hope that is clear and I move the adoption of this section
That is not
Schedule put and agreed to. Long title and the whole bill put and agreed
to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Finance Bill has been passed by the committee without amendment. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The third reading of this bill will be on Thursday, 21st day of May , 1970 , Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9
REPATRIATION OF TRANSKEI FROM REPUBLIC THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, due to the retrospective amendment of section 52 of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963, the Legislative Assembly is now empowered with effect from 1st April , 1964 , to pass measures determining that certain revenues may accrue to the lower authorities instead of to the Transkeian Revenue Fund as presently required by section 52 of the Transkei Constitution Act. This amendment is intended to regularize the retention by these authorities of their traditional revenues for the period prior to the 11th February, 1966 , - that is , the effective date of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965. I move the adoption of this section.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR :
CITIZENS
The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I did not think I would take part in the discussion on this motion but because of some cobwebs which have to be removed from the eyes of some of the hon . members it is necessary to partake in the discussion on this motion. In doing so I wish to compare the original motion with the amendment. The original motion seeks that there should be consultation between the Republican Government and the Transkei Government before repatriation of Transkeian citizens is effected . In other words , the question of repatriation seems to be common cause as far as the original motion is concerned . The amendment seeks that before Transkei citizens are repatriated from the Republic it must be seen to firstly that there is enough accommodation for the persons repatriated . That is number one . (Interjections)
I second .
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , an exaplanation has been given in this regard and in the light of that the amendment is being withdrawn.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA:
Who sees to that?
Clause 9 put and agreed to. The Republican THE CHIEF MINISTER: Government - we are not a party to it.
Clause 10 put and agreed to .
MR. MADIKIZELA : You have provided for it in your Estimates and you say you are not a party to it?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the schedule to the bill and the whole bill be adopted .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You ask who sees to it ; the people keen to have persons repatriated from the Republic to the Transkei will see that there is accommodation.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask a question from the hon. the Chief Minister in regard to the schedule . Section 3 refers to fees collected by the heads or deputies.
MR. MADIKIZELA : Who is keen? 240 .
a counter-motion he is objecting to it. I thought he would drop his motion in favour ofthe amendment because that is exactly what he is asking for. Let us be honest, gentlemen, even if a thing comes from this side , if it is reasonable let us accept it. You have got several motions here which, if we see they are reasonable, we will accept.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The Republican Government. There is nothing that forces us to see to it because we are not repatriating people; it is the Republican Government who is doing it. Number 2 : It should be seen to that there is enough work for those people when they are repatriated. Now, if we take the word on which I shall lay stress , the word "consultation" , I wonder if the hon. member who moved this motion clearly understands the meaning of the word "consultation" . The Supreme Court of the Republic of South Africa gave a ruling on this very word - namely, that the word does not entail consent on the part of the person consulted. (Interjections ) You can go anywhere and the word consultation does not entail consent on the part of the person consulted and it is enough merely to tell the person that you intend doing so-and-so. That is enough consultation if the person has been told. (Interjections) In other words , this motion seeks that the Transkei Government must be told before repatriation is effected and it is not necessary for the Transkeian Government to say yes , these people must be repatriated , or to refuse. Now, the hon. member for Qumbu says the Government of the Transkei should refuse, but the Republican Government will say: You asked us to consult you and we have consulted you; whether you say yes or not we have consulted and we have done what you asked us to do . That is what your motion means. It gives the right to the Republican Government merely to tell you they are repatriating so many people and you need not say yes or no. Can't you see you are putting the Transkei Government into a rut? MR. there .
MADIKIZELA :
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: the interests of the people.
We are thinking of
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is in the interests of the people to see that there is accommodation and work for them. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Repatriation is what we are talking about. You should have refused repatriation instead of bringing this motion. Why did you bring this motion then? You should have said in your motion that people should not be repatriated , but you did not say so. Why didn't you say so? Mr. Chairman, I think I have told these dunderheads just what this is all about. (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN: The next speaker will be the last one and after that I will give an opportunity to the mover to reply. CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman, we are disappointed to find we are falsely accused on this side. Everyone in this House knows that
It has always been
it is that Government which caused people to be repatriated. (Interjections )
Are you THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : trying to endorse what has always been there?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
By what Act?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MADIKIZELA : We are trying to rescue
it.
CHIEF ZULU: The ruling side have forgotten that they went to the labour centres and demanded that these people should come to the Transkei . ( Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You cannot rescue by putting a person in a rut. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are telling lies. You are a chief too and it is a disgrace for you to tell such lies.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, on the other hand if the Republican Government should agree that before the person is repatriated there should first of all be accommodation and work, surely those people are protected by this amendment in that they will not be repatriated until there is enough accommodation and enough work for them . In fact, I was intrigued by the hon.
Hon. member, will you THE CHAIRMAN : please substantiate your statement. CHIEF ZULU: Which statement, Mr. Chairman? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , we don't expect an hon. member to question the Chair. He knows what statement he made , unless he made it under the influence .
mover of the motion because throughout his argument he advanced the argument that first of all it must be seen to that there is accommodation and work for the people . That is what he said yesterday .
MR. MADIKIZELA :
The debate was adjourned .
Through what process ?
The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Does it matter what process ? Now, the counter-motion says exactly what he said in his argument and because this is now condensed and formed into
The debate on the Repatriation of Transkeian Citizens from the Republic was resumed. 241 .
CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was still giving the reasons for this motion which seeks to provide help to those poor people who are being repatriated because this Government has led to this situation. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Section 10 of 45 - where were we then? Unfortunately I spoke just CHIEF ZULU: after the hon. member across the floor who is also a Minister. He is asking now where they were when section 10 was promulgated. I know now that he forgets we were together. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : with you.
I was never
CHIEF ZULU : In fact, he personally went round the labour centres telling the people they must return home and he would provide them with land . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. members must be asked to substantiate the stateHe was on the station at ments they make . Ndabakazi when I was in Cape Town. Even in the papers you will never find a statement like that. THE CHAIRMAN : Can you substantiate what you say ?
CHIEF ZULU : When they held meetings in the labour centres this very Minister told the people they would have land in the homelands . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : that ! He is telling lies.
Substantiate
THE CHAIRMAN : Can you substantiate what you say? You must substantiate before you go on. CHIEF ZULU : When they held meetings in Port Elizabeth the hon. Minister told the people... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Can the hon. member bring some paper or document to prove what he says?
THE CHAIRMAN : mover to reply.
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to reply to the debate on my motion which is a clear motion in its purpose to make representations on behalf of the people who are being driven away from the Republic . We say there should be consultation between the Republican Government and the Transkei Government. Since we came to this House there has been common talk about influx control regulations . We are applying for the removal of this law because it is an oppressive law. Day in, day out the hon. the Chief Minister together with his Cabinet replied that the influx control regulations were not of their own making and they suggested that a request should be made for those regulations to be relaxed. The House will remember that when we spoke to them they said they had no power over this because it was a law of the Republic . All along I said we did not like what we were talking about but we could do no otherwise . Because we saw people being repatriated to the Transkei without any provisions made for them we then decided we should suggest consultation between the two Governments . Consultation is the only way to create friendship between people. When you look at the dictionary the meaning is given as " the action of taking counsel together; conference " - that is the meaning of the word "consultation" . I must again reiterate that you have said more than once that you had no power whatsoever to do anything about this . It is for that reason that we decided upon consultation when we saw the grievous situation of these people . Even in You your address none of you disputed this . were only playing marbles . We are firm on our motion that there should be consultation and the people must not be repatriated without the necessary provision being made. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: your motion.
You are THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : telling lies . (General uproar) CHIEF ZULU : Mr. Chairman, I don't know how to go on , because whatever I say you tell me I must withdraw. However, I withdraw.
That is not in
MR. JAFTA: We have mentioned in our motion that provision must be made for their accommodation and gainful employment. We insist on that. You are repeating exactly what we say. Mr. Chairman, I have already said that this motion is clear , and there it is.
THE CHAIRMAN : You accused the hon. Minister of saying the people must come back to the Transkei . Can you substantiate that? CHIEF ZULU:
I shall now call upon the
It was in the newspapers . I call upon the hon.
THE CHAIRMAN : I put the question that the words proposed to be deleted should stand part of the motion.
CHIEF ZULU: I have withdrawn , Mr. Chairman.
The words were deleted by 71 votes to 18 after a division as follows : -
THE CHAIRMAN : member to withdraw.
AYES
NOES Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Babini Langa Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase
242 .
Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erusmus Mapassa Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyuke Churchill Jojo Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George M. Matanzima Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumbą Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TOTAL : 18.
315
TELLERS : 1. L.L. Mgudlwa 2. L.I. Cemane
TOTAL : 71
TELLERS : 1. R. Msengana 2. H. Mafukula REDUCTION OF PENALTIES UNDER ROAD TRANSPORTATION ACT
The words proposed in the amendment were substituted.
The motion as amended was carried.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA :
243.
Mr. Chairman and hon.
In fact, it is not because they are dissatisfied , it is just because it is a Black person who is in a car who must be stopped for questioning.
members , before I carry on with this motion I wish to make a slight amendment, with the permission of the House , to delete all the words after the word "Government " and to substitute therefor the following: "to reduce such fines and sentences appreciably " . I therefore put the motion as amended:-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You had better alter the motion then to say even the White people must be stopped . You are off the point again.
"That in view of the severe penalties imposed on persons contravening the provisions of the Transportation Act on convictions involving inter alia a fine of R1,000 or twelve months' imprisonment and the confiscation of a motor vehicle involved in the offence , in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making representations to the Republican Government to reduce such fines and sentences appreciably . "
MR. MAJIJA: When these people are being questioned individually they are threatened so that they should say they have paid . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where have you seen this? Give examples. MR. MAJIJA: The hon. the Chief Minister says I must give an example. One day I was driving my car with my wife and I was stopped and asked to give an explanation about this passenger.
You will realise that the majority of the people who drive taxis are people who have been repatriated from the Ciskei. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I think you have not put the amendment by the hon. member to the House, which is the first thing which should have been done .
I think the
best thing is for you to say " who drive unauthorized taxis " because this refers to unauthorized taxis . Don't mislead the House . The sentence is for unauthorized taxis .
THE CHAIRMAN: amendment?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is for criminals . MR. MAJIJA :
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Chairman .
You are putting me off now.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, just tell the House it is for criminals , irrespective of colour .
I second it, Mr.
Agreed to. MR. MAJIJA : When I told the officer it was my wife she was told to get out of the car and stand some distance from the car. Later on when she told me what happened , she said he had questioned the truth of the statement that in fact she was my wife. (Laughter) It is usual for us to travel along with our wives . They went to the extent of asking her to produce her reference book in order to satisfy themselves . When she told them she had left her reference book at home they said they did not believe her but would let it go.
MR. MAJIJA : Just tell these hon. members to stop interfering, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , when a member puts a motion before the House he is expected to enlighten the House on his motion. (Interjections ) We are trying to correct him to say that this is for unauthorized taxis , not authorized ones . Authorized ones do not fall under this . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: You can move an amendment if you want to. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : member is misleading the House.
Who is seconding the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , with due respect I appeal to you to request the hon. member to keep to the motion. The motion is for the reduction of fines imposed by the courts . It does not say whether it applies to Black or White. It is a Republican law which they ask to be amended. We would like him to enlighten the House on that - as to whether the Government can reduce
The hon.
MR. MADIKIZELA : He will explain matters in his address . MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, when they are quiet I will proceed .
the fines imposed by the courts . MR. MAJIJA: The motion is requesting this Government to make representations to the Republican Government with a view to the reduction of these fines and sentences .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Every time we will stop you until you tell the truth. MR. MAJIJA: On the road people are arrested . When a car owner is driving along the road with passengers he is stopped and questioned about those passengers . One person will say he has given these people a lift and another one says he is coming from home with these people. These officers , if they are dissatisfied with the reply, make the passengers get down from the car and place them in different spots , singly.
But the GovernTHE CHIEF MINISTER : ment does not impose the sentences - that is for the courts . MR. MAJIJA : would suggest that for a first offence the car owner should be fined R5 , for the second office R10 and for a third R15 , and
244.
the insults because I am a Christian. If in fact we are true representatives of the people this motion should be agreed to unanimously.
the car should not be confiscated . You will remember that sometimes it happens that a person has not yet paid the full purchase price for the car but is still paying instalments, and when the car is stopped on the road the police confiscate the car.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I contribute to the discussion on this motion I would like to move a counter-motion by the deletion of all the words after the word " That" and the substitution therefor of the following:-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But they are pirates and they should apply for a tax licence . MR. MAJIJA : It should therefore be noted there are many people who have been convicted in this manner and their cars confiscated . If these people are required to pay such a high fine where do you think they can get the money?
"there is no need for any representations to the Republican Government in regard to the imposition of sentences for contraventions of the provisions of the Motor Carrier Transportation Act ( Act No. 39 of 1930) " .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Let them apply for a licence.
Hon. members , this is a very important motion because it touches on the livelihood of many law-abiding citizens of the Transkei . I think when the hon. the mover of the motion referred to the fact that he is a true representative of the people he was only thinking of the law-breakers and not the law-abiding people in the Transkei , and I think his appellation might have sounded better if he had termed himself a representative of the law- breakers in the In every district there are people Transkei . who are carrying on authorized taxi businesses . Now, this matter should be taken in conjunction and compared with people who are running any type of business such as , for instance , a bottlestore business , a general dealer's business and so on. In every such business there must be, and there will always be, provisions of the law which have been enacted in order to curb unlicensed persons carrying on the same type of business , as you may have heard when I referred to the actual Act which is in operation, which is Act No. 39 of 1930 , the Motor Carrier Transportation Act. When this Act was enacted such heavy penalties were not included. Experience showed that, despite the imposition of fines which were then provided in law, the people still carried on unlicensed motor transportation , hence depriving the persons who had genuine motor transport services of their livelihood . This Motor Carrier Transportation Act was amended in 1967. Now, section 18 reads as
MR. MAJIJA : The hon. the Chief Minister says these people should apply for a licence , but I can tell him I have a list of people who have complained and they have licences. What are they THE CHIEF MINISTER: complaining about? About pirates on the road? MR. MAJIJA : I will not waste my time by answering the interjections of the hon. the Chief Minister. We on this side of the House request the Government to make representations to the Republican Government with a view to having The hon. the fines and sentences reduced . member on the Government side says we should then alter the laws passed by the Republican Government but I say they should also make representations in regard to influx control. We should be unanimous on this motion because we are here to represent the interests of the people. The users of these carse are our children. One thing that is very painful is that a person who is not even pirating with this car is questioned about the passengers in his car . I once sent my son to take people from my home to my in- laws at Clarkebury. He was stopped along the road and the passengers were ordered to get out. After that incident I came to consult the Secretary. The officers belonged to the Railways and they were using an SAR car. Those officers did not even ask for an explanation as to the identity of those people but simply because my car had no triangle they were ordered out of the car. What are these cars bought for if we are not allowed to use them and if our relatives are not allowed to use them? The Secretary for Justice , Mr. Meyer, said Icould have as many passengers in my car as I liked , as long as they have not paid. This is what happens , and in fact I saw it happening. When these people state they have not paid the officer tells them to stand aside and thereafter says that because they have not paid he is going to arrest them, because they have no right to use a car without having paid. The people in the rural locations are ignorant and as a result of their ignorance one or two Then the of them will say they have paid. This person owner of the car is charged . merely says he has paid because he was told that if he has not paid he is committing an offence and will be charged, not forgetting their insulting language to people . I fear to repeat
follows :- "Any person guilty of any offence under this Act for which no other penalty is expressly prescribed shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding R1,000 or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding twelve months and a court convicting any person of an offence involving the carrying on of unauthorized motor carrier transportation may declare the motor vehicle used in such transportation and the goods conveyed thereon or the convicted person's rights in such motor vehicle or goods to be forfeited to the State. " Now, sub- section (2 ) reads as follows :- "In the case of a third or subsequent conviction for an offence involving the carrying on of unauthorized motor carrier transportation if that conviction and the previous convictions are convictions in respect of offence committed after the commencement of the Motor Carrier Transportation Amendment Act, 1967 , the maximum penalty prescribed in sub-section (1) shall Now , in law the Act is usually be imposed. " enacted with certain provisions for the contravention of the law and the maximum fine put.
245 .
It is then in the discretion of the presiding officers or the magistrates to mete out a punishment which under the circumstances the presiding officer deems fit. It means , therefore , that for the first conviction and the second conviction the magistrate can mete out any fine from a cent to a thousand rand - that is the It is only on the sentence that is provided . third or subsequent conviction that the maximum fine or sentence becomes obligatory upon the presiding officer. I see the hon. mover of the motion does not seem to catch my point. He is You see, sub- section (a ) says "in frowning. the case of a third or subsequent conviction" , So only at the third or a conviction after the third is the magistrate obliged to impose that fine Now, the hon. (Interjections) or sentence . Mr. Cemane is carrying on a genuine licensed motor transportation business , so Mr. Mnyila had better refer to other members you know are law-breakers and not to Mr. Cemane . Now, the position is that if a person has been convicted a first time and also the second time, what must be done with such a person on the It must be third or subsequent conviction?
which is not even required to be certified as roadworthy, plying in competition with this man who has had to incur such a lot of expenses and that is the type of man who is sought to be protected by this piece of regislation. I am not going to dwell very much on the wayward argument which was used by the mover of the motion and which argument was completely at a tangent as far as this motion is concerned . His motion was not complaining about the treatment of himself and his wife by the police. In any event, during my policy speech the question of the behaviour of the police towards the public was fully canvassed by the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa and others , and in my remarks when I replied I told this House that the department would investigate any such alleged misdemeanours on the part of the police . However, it must be clearly understood that a car which has been licensed as a taxi usually has a triangle displayed on the windscreen. It must be further appreciated that if the police have to do their duty it becomes difficult for them to differentiate between an ordinary car which is carrying non-paying passengers and those cars which are pirates , because the two classes of cars usually do not have that triangle which distinguishes a taxi from a non-taxi and if the police must do their work properly they have got to take out the passengers from a suspect car and interrogate such passengers . A pirate who is not a fool and who knows at the time he is starting to load the passengers that he is contravening the Act usually warns his passengers that they must say they did not pay even a cent. I know that from experience , because I have been in such a car and I was told not to divulge that I had paid although I had in fact paid . The police have got to make sure that they use every means possible to get the truth out of these drilled persons . Hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Majija , when are you going to put up a motion representing the genuine taxi owners of the Transkei and not the unauthorized taxis ? We know, for instance , that the authorized taxi owners have got a radius which is prescribed by law and within which they must operate , and you know that the authorized taxi owners are not satisfied with the status quo. Why don't you bring a motion to alleviate that position as far as the genuine taxi owners are concerned? Why do you go and protect the law-breakers ? We know, for instance , that the taxi owners have complained about special permits for special trips not readily granted to them by the Transportation Board. If you are a true representative ....
noted by this House that any legislature, when it legislates on punitive measures it wants to see to it that the punishments meted out are deterrent. When you have been wronged by your child and you decide to chastise your child you don't take a cloth and chastise it with a cloth . You chastise a child in such a way that the child will not do what it did thereafter . MR. dagger .
L.Z. MAJIJA :
But you don't use a
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, this motion seeks that the punishments or fines provided must be such as to please the lawbreakers , that is why I said the hon. member should say that he is a representative of the law-breakers and not the representative of the law-abiding citizens . You find that in most cases these pirate cars ( as they are called ) are usually traced as a result of reports made by genuine licensed taxi owners . Now must the law-abiding citizens suffer because the lawbreakers have to be protected? I am sure we have got businessmen on the other side and I am sure the hon. member for Qumbu would never like a person who does not hold any licence to trade illegally next to him, and that the punishment meted out is such as to please the law-breaker next to his shop . In most cases you find that most of these unlicensed taxis do not even belong to Transkei citizens . Some of them are taxis belonging to men who come from the bigger urban areas . Must these people be allowed to come and deprive the poor law-abiding citizens of the Transkei of their 'livelihood? Also , hon. members , you find that the genuine authorized taxi owners have got to incur a lot of expense before their licences are granted to them. They have got to see to it that their cars are roadworthy before they can get taxi licences and they pay lots and lots of money to have their cars brought up to the standard where they can be passed as roadworthy. They also pay an amount when they make application for a taxi licence and you find a pirate with an old ramshackle dilapidated car
MR. B.S. MNYANI : On a point of privilege , Mr. Chairman, please. I wish to ask the hon. Minister who is telling us of the complaints of the taxi drivers why he comes and tells us about such complaints, instead of attending to them ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , that is a very easy question to reply to. These matters are dealt with by the Local Transportation Board and it is up to these so-called representatives of the people to go to that body and make representations on behalf of the people. I am trying to show you 246 .
that you neglect your duties as far as the general public is concerned and all you know is to try to come and say a lot of nonsense in this House.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, if you read this motion, it is in connection with people contravening the provisions of the Transportation Act.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : What steps did you take in that direction after these people had come to you, to make matters easy for the taxi owners ?
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, allow me to make an explanation. People who own taxis and buses are victims to these provisions . I am asking to be given an opportunity to make an explanation.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am afraid that the hon. member is so fond of distorting facts that he would like to distort facts every time he opens his mouth. I never said in this House that these people came to me. MR. MAJIJA : you.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the motion is very clear. It speaks of a fine of R1,000 or imprisonment of twelve months which is under section (1) and which deals with unauthorized transportation of people. He must be specific that his motion seeks to protect the people who break the Act.
But they said they came to
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I repeat I never said these people came to me. In any event, if they came to me it is not part of my duty to come and divulge to you what steps I took . It is a matter between myself and those people. All I am showing you is how misdirected you are in your thoughts and ideas and actions . Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I feel I have now exhausted my discussion on the amendment and I feel I have shown the hon. members that there is no sane government which would ever , while trying to stamp out a certain evil , provide punitive measures which would be tothe comfort and enjoyment of the law- breakers . I have shown the hon. members that this piece of legislation was enacted in order to protect the poor citizens who are struggling to make a living out of this taxi business . In any event, I do not think any responsible man can ever stand up in a house of parliament and make representations on behalf of people who break the law. I have shown the hon. members that the poor authorized taxi men are suffering and they are looking upon their leaders to see to Thank you , the alleviation of the position. Mr. Chairman .
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , I beseech you to allow me to give an explanation , particularly about the point of order which I have been drawn to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Chairman has already ruled. MR . MNYANI : I want to explain because I know of certain men who own taxis and buses and one man was convicted under this particular law. (Interjections ) We are talking about people and if these are not people I am willing to be ruled out of order .
THE CHAIRMAN : That is not contained in the motion. Sit down, hon. member . The hon. the Minister of Justice is quite right that if you wish to speak about such people you can amend the motion. MR. C. DABULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the countermotion. There is no need for any representations to the Republican Government. In the main this Act is for the protection of life . These pirate cars race along with passengers , with the result that people get killed . In the first place their cars are not roadworthy , nor do they have third-party insurance . The Motor Carrier Transportation Certificate holders have third-party insurance so that compensation can be paid out in case of death. Passengers who are conveyed in cars which do not have motor carrier certificates are not compensated in case of death. The hon. member for Umtata states that even these people who have these certificates get convicted . They are arrested only when they have contravened the provisions of the law. In the first place , if the car itself is not roadworthy that is a contravention of the law. These taxis are under constant check. If a man is the holder of a motor carrier
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the amendment. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the motion moved by the hon. Mr. Majija . It refers to people who complain on account of the punishment inflicted when they have broken the Transportation Act. As has already been said by the hon. Mr. Majija these people we talk about are people who own taxis and also buses . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, when is this hon. member going to learn he must not mislead the House? He says the motion refers to the taxi licencees and bus licencees who are fined heavily when they break the law. That is not the motion; the motion concerns unauthorized taxi drivers. THE CHAIRMAN : Stick to the motion, please , hon. member.
certificate and goes beyond his radius he is liable to arrest. He does not even need to do this because he is allowed preferential treatment. The hon. member for Engcobo states he was stopped while travelling with his wife in The law allows any car owner to his car .
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , I don't believe that the remark made by the hon. the Minister of Justice is correct.
transport his family and a chief is allowed to convey his non-paying counsellors in his car , but there should be no payment. I think the law should be allowed to remain as it is because ,
247 .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, it is a counter-motion I am amending and not an amendment.
as the hon. the Minister of Justice says , the magistrate has discretion to impose a fine as little as a cent. A judicial officer is free to decide what punishment to mete out to people depending upon circumstances such as a previous conviction. Similarly, even in this matter the magistrate can use his discretion. It does not necessarily mean that the magistrate will straight away impose a fine of R1,000 . There are people who have been fined as little as R10 under this Act. What I do not understand about the hon. member for Engcobo is that he has brought up two points the reduction of sentences and the treatment meted out to the public. It is the responsibility of the members of this House to protect people who are ill-treated on the roads . If this happened to a Member of Parliament then he failed in his duty because he should have gone and reported the matter to the Road Transportation Board . It was his duty to report to the Road Transportation Board the treatment of his wife whom he says was taken out of his car. I say this penalty should not be disturbed because it is there for the protection of our lives . You know that a pirate races his car sometimes at a speed of more than 70 miles an hour. In doing so he is going to subject himself to arrest because he might kill his passengers . I see no reason to disturb these penalties . They should remain as they are because we want to prosecute offenders who are liable to kill people . If they do not want to be convicted these people should apply for the motor carrier certificate which is open to all . I think it is plain that we should not do away with something which is there for our protection.
THE CHAIRMAN : ment.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I move an amendment that all the words after the word " That" be deleted and substituted by the words: "there is no need for any representations to the Republican Government in regard to the imposition of sentences for contraventions of the provisions of the Motor Carrier Transportation Act (Act No. 39 of 1930)". MR. L.I. CEMANE : I second . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know now after all the argument if all the argument that has been gone into so far is null and void.
THE CHAIRMAN : the matter right .
No, we are just putting
Agreed to.
The debate was adjourned .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 21st May, 1970 .
THURSDAY, 21st MAY , 1970
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I wish to know from the rules of the House where provision is made for a counter-motion. The only thing I can see here is provision in regard to amendments , on page 14 , paragraph 72 .
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I think you must read what you have from me. The hon. member will be satisfied.
THE CHAIRMAN : to read it.
Well, move an amend-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, hon. members will probably recall press reports during August , 1969 , about the symposium which was held at Fort Hare University in connection with the economic development of the Transkei in which certain well known persons took part. Because of the vital importance of economic development to us in the Transkei my Government assisted Fort Hare financially to publish the papers read at this symposium in booklet form so as to make it more readily available . I now have pleasure to present each member of the Assembly with a copy of this booklet. It is hoped that the contents of this book will further enlighten and activate members in connection with this difficult question, especially as this booklet has now become available so soon after the fruitful debate we had in this House on the question of economic development.
I shall ask the Secretary
The hon. Chief G.M. THE SECRETARY : Matanzima to move as a counter-motion that all the words after the word " That" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : - "there is no need for any representations to the Republican Government in regard to the imposition of sentences for contraventions of the provisions of the Motor Carrier Transportation Act (Act No. 39 of 1930 ). " CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : I stand up to ask that you rule that counter-motion out of order. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move an amendment to delete the word " countermotion" and substitute "amendment " . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House , I notice that there are many absentees and vacant seats in the House here, If this state of affairs continues I shall be obliged to ask the Secretary to take the roll call. I hope this position will be rectified before I take that step .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , I will draw your attention to rule 73 (b) .
248.
TRANSKEI FINANCE BILL : THIRD READING
Ordinance) extended to the "White Spots" by means of a Proclamation issued in terms of section 70 (3 ) of our Constitution Act. However , this undertaking was conditional upon the measure being made to apply also to Bantu owners of property.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the bill be now read a third time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I second.
4. When the Transkeian Road Tax Amendment Act, 1969, was promulgated this requirement was met and at the same time it enabled me to put in motion the machinery to have the properties of Bantu persons valued in preparation for a new property tax designed to take the place of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TAXATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS
5. In this regard I remarked last year that the Transkei Road Tax Amendment Act, 1969, was not actually intended to impose the Transkein Territories Road Tax on Bantu Properties but was merely intended to prepare the way for another bill to be introduced this year.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , because of the implications of the bill of which I gave notice yesterday I now move that this House should convert itself into a committee of ways and means. In this committee we shall discuss the principles of the bill in order that the Minister should be given the authority by this House to move the bill. In matters of taxation it is customary
6. We have now reached the stage where the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance, 1935, may be repealed by the Cape Provincial Council for the White areas and by this Assembly for the Transkei as described in section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act and for a new tax on property to be introduced to take its place.
in parliament that before a bill is moved the authority of the House should be given to the Minister to move the bill . I therefore move , Mr. Chairman , that this House should convert itself into a committee of ways and means.
7. I propose a tax more or less on the lines of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax taking cognizance of changed circumstances . In other words , I propose a measure which fits into the changed constitutional set up . Besides those properties taxable under the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance I propose to tax also certain properties which are not subject to the tax at present . These are mainly refreshment rooms , railway institutes , dwelling houses and other railway property let to or occupied by any person as living quarters or for business or other private purposes and immovable property vested in a local authority and held under a lease , for example , municipal dwellings . In these cases the tax will be payable by the lessees and not the owners of the property.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Isecond.
Agreed to. House in Committee
BILL THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : -
1. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of this House :During the 1969 session this Assembly accepted in principle that properties of Bantu persons should be taxed in the same way as those of persons belonging to the other race groups are taxed and by passing the Transkeian Road Tax Amendment Act, 1969 (Act No. 10 of 1969) , this Assembly ensured that an important source of revenue will not be lost to the Transkei.
9. I propose also to exempt certain properties from the tax. 10. I propose that land, together with any buildings or structures thereon held or occupied for residential purposes under quitrent title , certificate of occupation , permit or permission (with the exception of trading and tradesmen's sites held under quitrent title issued in terms of Proclamation No. 11 of 1922 and which are occupied solely for residential purposes ) , should not fall within the scope of this Tax but that property used for trading and business purposes should be taxed throughout.
2. As I explained during the last Session the Cape Provincial Administration no longer derives any revenue from the collection of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax and in the circumstances Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 will be repealed this year by the Cape Provincial Council. Unless this tax is replaced by a new tax a considerable amount of revenue will be lost to the Transkei. One should , of course , realise that the taxed properties are situated mainly in the towns or " White Spots " in respect of which this Assembly has no legislative power.
11. As I stated last year a measure imposing a new tax is never popular but again I would like to think that this Assembly will show that it is a responsible body by considering this matter objectively without bringing personal circumstances into consideration, that this measure will receive unbiased treatment and that the
3.
The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, however , agreed to have the provisions of any property tax bill the Transkeian Government might seek to introduce (to take the place of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax 249 .
matter will be disposed of in a satisfactory and responsible manner using the interests of the Transkei as the only guideline . Members should realise that the Government will forfeit nearly R100,000 per annum in revenue if the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance is repealed by the Cape Provincial Council .
burden on people required to pay the tax. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to comment on the speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance in connection with ways and means . Last year we were informed about this and , in fact and in truth, it was the first occasion when it was stated that that the Black people were going to be taxed One has to think very deeply for road tax. when a new tax is being introduced , because people have never liked being taxed. The hon. Minister has told us to think over this matter and not think about ourselves. It is the truth that these people who are going to be taxed are poor people. You may find one owning a farm but it would surprise no-one to find that he makes no profit whatsoever in that farm . I would like to be informed when the valuation of the properties is going to start and when it will end. I should also like to know whether those properties which were valued ten or more years ago will be revalued. The hon. Minister also mentioned that if this taxation ordinance is repealed by the Cape Provincial Administration we shall lose R100,000 . We also wish to see progress and we would not be pleased to find ourselves losing such an amount. We are also pleased to hear that the White people who reside in these Territories will be taxed as well. As far as this matter is concerned , I do not think there is anything more to say because it was discussed last year and it will probably be discussed further when the bill is introduced .
12. The property tax will not be based on the income earned by a person but on the value of the immovable property he owns . Road tax is at present calculated at the rate of five -eights cent for every rand of the valuation of such property and it is clear that the new tax will not place a heavy financial burden on, or cause undue hardship to, Bantu owners of immovable property. For example, Road Tax on a piece of land valued at , say, R500 amounts to only R3.12 per annum. 13. The revenue to be derived from the new tax cannot be determined at this early state and a clear picture will emerge only when the valuation rolls have been finalised . It is , however estimated that at 5/8 cent in the rand it will yield probably R20,000 per annum more than the Transkeian Territories Road Tax does at present, partly because Bantu properties are now included in the rolls but mainly because many valuations of properties , some of which were valued last some twenty years ago , have finally been brought up to date. 14. Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to elaborate further at this stage . I accordingly propose that the principle of a property tax on immovable property be now debated and that I be granted leave by this Assembly to introduce a suitable Bill for the imposition of a property tax.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact there is nothing to discuss on this principle of introducing the bill. All that I seek is the leave of the House to introduce the bill so that the hon. members will have ample opportunity to discuss the bill when it has been introduced. With regard to the information which the hon. member seeks to find with regard to the valuation of properties I wish to assure him that new valuation rolls have been compiled, and they have been brought up to date. Now, Mr. Chairman, I move that this House gives leave to me to introduce the Transkeian Immovable Property Tax Bill on Friday, 22nd May , 1970 .
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the antics of the hon. the Chief Minister in regard to matters of taxation remind one of the fate of Julius Ceasar at the hands of the conspirators . When the announcement was made to the rabble that Julius Ceasar had been assassinated they shouted " Good Riddance " ; and when at a later stage it was pointed out to them that they owed their full stomachs to him they said : "Come to think of it, our loss is irreparable. " Only yesterday the hon. the Chief Minister was busy repealing certain fiscal measures ; this morning he is coming with fresh proposals . However, this side of the House will give him support when he introduces taxation for the benefit of the citizens of the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Isecond. Agreed to.
House Resumed GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the proposals considered by the committee of ways and means have been accepted by the committee without amendment and leave has been given to the Minister to introduce the necessary bill .
MR. MADIKIZELA : We wish to encourage him always to consult with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development for the increased services of the Transkei . He states in paragraph 9 that he proposes to exempt certain properties from the tax. We will have further comment to make on that at a later stage when he discloses to us what properties he intends to exempt from taxation. We further rejoice to learn that the property tax will not be based on a man's income but on the value of the property itself. We trust that there is substance in what he says about the light financial
REDUCTION OF PENALTIES UNDER ROAD TRANSPORTATION ACT MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I have made inquiries with regard to this motion and after legal advice I have decided to withdraw the motion.
250 .
Agreed to.
control regulations should be lifted . They want to know why we should go with them in this deputation, but we know that if they go along they will be afraid we will take over the government and they don't want to hand over their rule to us. (Laughter) It grieves us a
INFLUX CONTROL REGULATIONS MR. B.S. MNYANI : members , I move:-
Mr. Chairman and hon.
lot that our people should always go to labour centres under contract. We now realise that the people who stay in the Republic are enjoying the privileges to work in jobs which used to be done by White people because there are no labourers . A person who goes to work under contract cannot be given skilled work. Even the ruling side of the House admit that Black people are now employed in jobs which have been reserved for White people. Even the White experts in the Republic also admit that Black people get these jobs and if the Black people are not allowed to take up these posts it means that the whole of South Africa will become bankrupt. Mr. Chairman , I therefore move that this motion should be carried unanimously by this House . I only hope if they move an amendment it will be similar to the motion in that we shall send a deputation .
"That this Assembly should appoint a joint deputation consisting of members from both sides of the House to have consultation with the Republican Government in regard to the 11 lifting of influx control regulations . ' When I use the word "consultation " , Mr. Chairman, I am using it with a view to holding discussions and to hold these discussions on an equal footing so that no side should say they are lower than the other side. Consultations should not be used to mean to go and inform . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : verdict of a court of law.
That is the
MR. MNYANI : Even now I realise that the Transkei Government uses the word as meaning to tell or inform. What I want is that we should hold discussions . When the Black people were deprived of representatives in the Cape Parliament they were told that consultations which would be held between them and the Republican Government would be treated on a high level . Up to now paramount chiefs and other leaders of the people have gone to place their difficulties before the Republican Government and sometimes their requests have been acceded to. It is well known that in this House the opinion of the two different parties is not always the same. The ruling party , the TNIP, adheres to separate development - a policy which seeks that the White man should leave the Transkei .
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to move an amendment to the motion by the hon. Mr. Mnyani , that the words after the word " That" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : -
"the Government is satisfied that everything possible is being done to facilitate the employment of Transkei citizens in the Republic , but there will be no objection if the mover of the motion will lead his own deputation to interview the Minister in Pretoria at his own expense . " (Laughter) To show that the hon. mover does not understand his motion , Mr. Chairman, he has made no mention of consultation between the Transkei Government and the Government ofthe Republic . I do not see how the hon. members from this side could be deputized to go and join you to consult the Republican Government because at the commencement of this session you on the opposite side said you had no confidence in the Government. I fail to see how you can invite That is why people if you do not trust them. I suggested that the mover should nominate members from his side and proceed to Pretoria at their own expense . He has also mentioned that there should be consultation with the Republican Government about the influx control regulations , knowing as he does that it is a regulation of the Republic and not the Transkei Government . This Government is not just sitting idly without seeing to it that the people of the Transkei are treated well as far as this influx control is concerned . Throughout this country there are many Bantustans which are being helped by the Republican Government as a result of the influx control regulations , which also apply to other territories such as Lesotho, Botswana , Portuguese East Africa and many others . If you refer to page 6 of the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of the Interior you will find that the number of labourers who went from the Transkei to the Republic was 174,223, whereas last year there were only 19,000 . That proves that
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , don't discuss that policy now. Keep to the motion. MR. MNYANI: I am explaining it , Mr. Chairman. Though we have different principles there is something common to us in this House and that is that our people should be allowed to go to the Republic to seek employment. Again, this system of people going to labour centres under contract and then having to undertake new contracts is similar to a cancer which consumes our people. We have been talking over this matter on this side and it has pleased me to find there are certain members of the ruling side who see this matter in the same light as we do. I am pleased to say that the hon. Chief Mteto and the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa have influenced that side so that they can now see our view, (Laughter) and two Cabinet Ministers as well, whose names I will not mention . We have been repeatedly told that the Government is holding consultations with the Republican Government but days pass without any results from these consultations . We realised then that seeing they follow the policy of separate development they will find it difficult to make representations for the repeal of this influx control law, fearing that on account of certain · speeches they had made those words which they had uttered would be flung in their faces whilst trying to make representations that the influx
251 .
the number of people who went from the Transkei to the Republic has increased considerably . These numbers were obtained from the offices of the magistrates in the Transkei and also from the office of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development . There are two other factors which make it difficult for our people to leave the Transkei for the labour centres . The first one is accommodation . Many people leave here to seek employment, not knowing where they will live or where they will be employed and they have to go about seeking employment. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . members , please stop making a noise.
Hon.
his fare to the labour centre , pay to come back home and then pay again to return to the labour centre . What we want and what the people want is for all work- seekers to be allowed to go and look for work without contract, except in those cases where the worker desires to go under contract. It is only those people who do not sympathise with others who think people must of necessity go under contract. CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, it appeas the hon. member is out of order . What we have to consider is how this side of the House could be of assistance if we join hands with the Opposition side. That is the point on which he should speak.
CHIEF LEBENYA : When these people go up and down the streets looking for employment they are forced to do all sorts of things in order to get money and eventually they steal and are arrested. The labour offices and the magistrates ' offices in the Transkei assist people to find work and when his application has been finalised he knows exactly where he will work and where he will have accommodation, and it is always easy for the employer to meet the employee at the railway station. The second factor is employment. It is only for us to teach our people to go to the labour offices and magistrates ' offices in the Transkei where their cases will be dealt with and expedited .
MR. KUTU: People who have no sympathy with others try to interfere . On the Reef the White employers do not favour influx control ; they desire also that the people should go up so that they can employ them freely. If the R1 has to be paid it may be deducted from this man's wages . It should not be said that after the man has acquired a job he should have to come home to pay the R1 . We therefore request the Government of the Transkei to consider helping the people so that they do not become bankrupt. Many people have been oppressed by this law. We are experiencing a severe drought and there is no food . It will not be the Government's fault if one does not get work.
MR . MNYANI : So you support the influx control regulations ?
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you have now exhausted your arguments .
CHIEF LEBENYA : My amendment is selfexplanatory and should be clear to the mover I again say that the mover of of the Motion . the motion , together with people he may select from his side , can go to Pretoria to interview the Minister.
MR. L.I. CEMANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the amendment to Motion 44. The mover is a member of the Opposition side and he is a representative of the people and he has got all the right to go to the Republic and intercede on behalf of the people , because it does appear that he has no confidence in the Transkei Government. In fact, the Ministers of the Government have made representations on behalf of the people. There is an increased number of people who have been employed in the Republic . The conditions of service are such that the people are quite happy and the wages are also very much improved. In fact, Mr. Chairman, influx control regulations are not the sole concern of this House .
MR. L.I. CEMANE : I second the amendment. MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to second the motion by the hon. member for Umtata. This House has several matters in which they share the same opinion and we therefore ask them to co- operate with us. The reason why we asked this hon. member to move the motion is because we see the difficulties and hardships suffered by the people. One man entrains and goes tothe labour centres to seek work because of difficulties at home , and he is afraid to return home because of the difficulties there. When he left home there was nothing for the family to eat. Where this law is so bad is where a man leaves home at his own expense and finds work in the labour centre. After he has found work he is arrested and repatriated to his home to go and meet again the difficulties he experienced before he left home. Again, after having acquired work in the labour centre a man is repatriated again in order to pay R1 to obtain a contract. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. KUTU: This man incurred a great deal of expense by this process because he must pay
They concern all the Africans in the Republic , not necessarily the citizens of the Transkei . I appeal to you to be broad -minded in the circumstances . In fact, it would be reasonable of him if he were going to consult all the Black nations in the Republic to take up the matter. In the history of the political world it has never been known that an Opposition can go and consult on a matter like this . (Interjections ) Not so long ago in the no- confidence debate the Opposition was criticizing us for this and that and showing they had no confidence in us . What has changed the mind of the mover today that he is attracted to the Government of the TransKei? Honourable sir , the doors are all open take the road to Pretoria and go and consult the Republic . You can trust the Transkei Government. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I would wish that the mover should withdraw this motion because it is going to put the Transkei people 252 .
into difficulties .
Let us take a man who is
Remember , there is this something which is called the father and something which is called the child. When you go to a home here you are only met by a child who asks you to come in. If the members of the Government say we should go alone when we want to go to Pretoria in their company you should now think you are the Government; you are the people who accepted separate development. We say we should go with you because you are the children of that home. Lead us to your home and stop the dogs from biting us. (Laughter) I have not heard of a child saying he is not prepared to go to his home to make a request on anyone's behalf. There is an old adage which says : Ask and it shall be given to you; knock and it shall be opened unto you. What will the world think of you? You are handling matters affecting your people and you say you are not prepared to go and make requests on their behalf and you do not show any sympathy for your people . You know where your people come from. It is now clear you are sell -outs . You are selling out your people because of what you accepted and now what you accepted is sinking. (Interjections ) How can we go out of the Transkei when you close the doors so that we cannot go out? When you go out of the Transkei you have got to produce a passport.
going to enter the Republic with no preparation He goes there and cannot find whatsoever . employment; he has no money on which to live and the result is starvation. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: here before he goes out.
He is starving
MR. CEMANE : As a result of starvation he turns to crime, so then what is the state of affairs ? You must trust in the Transkei Government and realise that it is doing all it can for the convenience of the Transkei people in this connection. Don't expect the Transkei Government to go beyond its bounds and dictate to the Republican Government what to do. The Government side will be very happy if the Opposition would take a lead now and do something for the people and I hope they get enough votes if they do. MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very disappointed when something of benefit has been moved for the people to find there are people who will create obstacles. If you observe properly you will see that the motion seeks to assist the people of the Transkei , and not only them, but other people as well . I wish to remind these people that in the early days we used to look for work in the Ciskei before influx control existed. We were issued with travelling passes and you were not subject to questioning. They do all they do on purpose because they know that all this came up when we were given this freedom. Our people used to go to look for work in Johannesburg and they remained there because there are hostels where they could find accommodation . They were also accommodated by those people who had houses in Johannesburg. People do not stay out in the open when they get there . Accommodation is provided by the councils , such as hostels . People started being arrested when they had to go to the labour centres under contract. It is for that reason that this motion seeks that members of this House from both sides should go and hold consultations with the Republican Government. When influx control was introduced people found themselves in difficulties. I heard some of the hon. members in this House asking where people will stay in those places . There are houses where they can stay. Some of the hon . members have never been to Johannesburg and they do not know there are empty hostels which are waiting to be occupied and the factories are denuded of labourers who have been prohibited from going there on account of influx control . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : substantiate that?
Hon. member , can you
MR. NKOSIYANE : I can prove it because when I went personally to Johannesburg and got off the train a pass was demanded from me. (General uproar) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order. Hon. member, please speak to the motion. MR. NKOSIYANE : I am talking on the motion but I am just telling them I have royal blood in my viens . It is for that reason I say let us go to Pretoria. These are bad times let us go and ask on behalf of our children that things should be made easy for them. I have a right to come and make representations on behalf of the people. If you are a Member of Parliament you have the right to make representations on behalf of the people. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . We are emphatically MR. NKOSIYANE : supporting the motion moved by the hon. member for Umtata. Both sides of the House should join hands and go and make representations on behalf of the people. There is this to say: If you collect a bundle of wood and try to break it you will not be successful , but if you take only one stick you will be able to break it. That is why we want unity so that we will be strong in representing the people. That is our aim . We are not here to play. Even if it was said that you are not trustworthy, forget about that. (Laughter) Think about the electorate and forget about us as individuals . Don't look at me because Think about the people. ( Interyou hate me.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the hon. member not to interfere with the speaker . MR. NKOSIYANE : It is for that reason we say we must consider our boys and girls who are up there and who are being arrested . Children are not even allowed to go to school in Johannesburg because it is said they must have their education here . When men meet difficulties they decide to confer together to find means to overcome those difficulties .
jections)
253.
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly adjourned
last speaker went on to say that things have been accomplished by (I quote his words ) "various Cabinet Ministers " . Again, this hon. member says that the numbers of recruited employees have increased . I don't know where a person would come from in these parts of the Transkei who could say the people are satisfied with the present conditions as they exist. You must now become aware , and I want to warn you because in this regard we will take a division to find out the opinion of those members who have been elected by the electorate. I became suspicious when the mover of the amendment stood up, because he is not one of those who has been elected . He is only an involuntary member of this Assembly. It is necessary for us to give reasons why we think we should go and consult the Republican Government in regard to these matters . Now, they gave us a figure indicating the number of recruited workers but they did not give us figures of those who still want employment . Today I am going to say without fear of contradiction : How many people who go to the labour bureaux to take up those contracts have not been accepted ? Our sons , your sons , our children, day in and day out go up and down to these labour bureaux to make inquiries as to whether their names appear on the lists , only to be told more often than not that their names do not appear and the workseeker is disappointed , having left his wife and children without any means of livelihood . He has to return home with nothing. You see them even as you are sitting there and yet today, though you claim to be representing the people, you can still say you are satisfied. I am going to request you , Mr. Chairman , to prolong this discussion and not close it today. There is not one other motion as important as this one. The Government should have been pleased when we offered to join them and go to represent the people. The Government is in a position to say: Today we have come here together; now the Transkei in unity has come to make representations . What is the difference between a slave and a person who wants to live in freedom in his country ? A man in his own country should be able to sell his labour as a free man. On the other hand there are some people who say people should only go under contract. The only line of difference is that a man who cannot go on his own to seek employment is not a free man but a slave to contract. In other words , what is the meaning of oppression and freedom? (I want this point to sink in. ) The oppressor is one who does not want a man to look freely for employment and to work wherever he wishes to and earn wages according to his ability. The oppressor is the man who has moved the amendment to this motion. He cannot dispute that fact. When our sons and daughters go to the offices a lot of tears are shed . Even such evil things as this have stepped in : The clerks who are employed to enter the applicants on the lists are subject to temptation. No wonder that people are complaining, so much so that these clerks resort to asking the people to do something so that they can get their assistance . There is nothing more grievous than what is existing today when people are told they must first go and register before seeking employment. A man who goes away to work under
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Influx Control Regulations was resumed. MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support this amendment to Motion 44 moved by the hon. Mr. Mnyani . It has already been made clear to the Opposition members that they must lead their own deputation. This motion shows in no uncertain terms that the hon. mover has absolutely no confidence in the Government because representations have already been made by the various Cabinet Ministers of our Government to the Republican Government and improvements have been effected, as the figures of the Transkeians employed by the Republican Government show. What this hon. member seemed to suggest is that they want to go with the Government members so that they must make sure that they say what everybody wishes . It is quite clear that they do not trust the Government side at all. They treat them as children who must be watched when they execute their duties. It is astonishing to find that members of the Opposition want to combine with the governing party on a certain point. As the amendment stipulates , we are prepared to allow them the privilege to go and send their own deputation They have always and satisfy themselves . professed they are the members who represent the interests of the people of the Transkei. Why should they then now request our assistance in this affair? They must show the people that they can send a deputation and succeed with it. I thought that when they heard the amendment I say this they would withdraw the motion . because even their policy is not provided for in the Constitution. How do they think the Government party would agree to go with them when they are always criticized whatever they say? One would think that if one would go with the Opposition members one might even be in danger on the way to Pretoria because we are not sure that some of them are not terrorists . ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I support the amendment strongly and whole-heartedly. Thank you. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , for the benefit ofthe last speaker I want to read the amendment and also for the convenience of other members who may wish to speak on this . It says " the Government is satisfied that everything possible is being done to facilitate the employment of Transkei citizens in the Republic... " That is the gist of the amendment by the Government party. I want it to be clear today beyond all shadow of doubt that though we are meeting with such problems and difficulties , that side is satisfied with such conditions that our people should not on their own go out and look for work, but that they should only go out on contract . Note , and note well , that when we say we should go to the Republican Government with a view to the repeal of these influx control regulations you on the other hand state you are satisfied with the position. The
254 .
contract has a defined set period after which he has to return home. Imagine when you have worked under contract and at the expiration of your contract you have gained a lot of experience and the employer wishes to retain your services , but you are compelled to return home and have your document stamped before you can return to that employer. This man has only a short time in which to rearrange his domestic affairs before he has to re-apply. He only has time to reach home , spend the night and the following day he must go and re-apply. He has not even the time to see to things for his children and his relatives before he has to return to work. Before he can acquire the job he had before he has to start right from the beginning . Even if you try to label it cheap labour , you have still failed to define it. You should not then say you are chiefs , because after we have taken a division and gone to the people to tell them which are the people who refused we will tell them you chiefs are responsible . MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman , I want to ask a question from the speaker , on the point he was on just now. Does he realise that what he says he is going to tell the people is not the truth, because our amendment says that they should go to Pretoria but they should not be accompanied by us because only recently they said they had no confidence in the Government? Why should they want to go with members of the Government and not by themselves ? CHIEF MAJEKE : In reply to the question I will refer the hon. member to the amendment. This is the point I read , and I will read it again: "That the Government is satisfied that everything possible is being done to facilitate the employment of Transkei citizens in the Republic..." That is the amendment and that is what we are now discussing. Do you still say you are satisfied with what is being done now? Well , if you say so I will be very pleased if the hon. member will say so. (Interjections) I am very pleased the hon. member has asked this question. I am still challenging those elected members who say they are supporting this motion. ( Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF MAJEKE : It is better that you leave those chiefs alone , but they should not run out of the door when the division is called . If they are determined to sell their subjects how can they say they are chiefs over these people and yet they do not want them to live? I am sure this is Nongqause all over again. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . The hon. members are making too much noise. CHIEF MAJEKE : People should be set free and go freely to seek for work. This must be carried out and we will know what will be written and communicated over there. (Interjections) What we are talking about now is not only our children but your children as well , and your people. You have to choose between slavery and freedom. (Interjections ) PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Hon. mem-
ber, you are repeating yourself now. CHIEF MAJEKE : When we said we wanted to go with the members of the Government in
connection with this consultation and when this Government refuses to do so , I suspect that the Transkei Government has never approached the Republican Government about any of these things . (Interjections) This Government should realise it is liable to the people of the Transkei as this Government has now and again told the people it is going to make provision for them. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN:
Order please.
CHIEF MAJEKE : The Government should undertake that responsibility as they promised to undertake it. I am waiting for the Government members who have been elected by the people to speak. You must not run away. (interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order . I will allow one more speaker from the Government side and after that the mover will reply. CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment moved by the hon. Chief Lebenya . He has tried to enlighten the Opposition members on the fact that their motion has been framed incorrectly. As a motion which has been moved by a very tall person, he made the motion longer than it should have been. We know that the Republican Government assists all its neighbouring countries. It is a Government that has its own parliament where they make laws . There is not one member of that parliament in this House. The laws which are made in that parliament are made as in all other parliaments . The influx control law about which the Opposition wants us to make representations does not affect the Transkei people alone. It is applicable to everyone who lives outside the borders of the Republic and that is why we have the Department of the Interior in the Transkei which deals with all the difficulties affecting the people of the Transkei who wish to go to the Republic . It is through that Department that we know the number of people who have gone out to work. Whoever wishes to know the number of people who have not been able to get work outside can go to the Department of the Interior where he will get this information. Since the inception of our Government we have departments which form the Cabinet. We have the Government side and the Opposition side in this House . We on this side normally do all we wish to without the assistance of the Opposition because they are accustomed to dispute even on very clear matters . They still dispute the fact that the number of labourers has increased since last year . All they seek is to lead us to Pretoria for a consultation about which we know nothing. It is not so long ago that we went to Pretoria and thought we were united and, after the documents had been signed in Pretoria, immediately we came into this House some of the hon. members denied all knowledge of this. It would not be wise for this side of the House to unite with the Opposition party on any important matter. It is true that the Government is satisfied with the procedure which is being applied in regard to people who go to work. Should any difficulty arise the Government will try to solve the problem as it has done in the past. One of the speakers said that only a small number of labourers find work and many are left behind. 255.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Do you refute that?
That is correct.
and when he arrives at his destination he should apply for a pass . Today the discussions reveal that you dispute that altogether . That goes to show that you were talking to please the gallery.
CHIEF MOSHESH: It is quite clear that the employers are in the Republic and we cannot therefore compel the employer from the Republic to exceed the number of employees he wants . For instance , if he wants a hundred we cannot force him to take two hundred . Why shouldn't the Government say to those people : You have taken very many people out of the Transkei leave the rest; because our object is that every person in the Transkei should get employment? One of the speakers said that the employers in the Republic are opposed to this influx control . I am not satisfied that he is telling the truth because no employer has not been allowed as many employees as he wants from the Transkei . All he said was something that came out of his mind , which is impracticable . With those few words I support the amendment whole-heartedly.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You go to Pretoria. You take steps . MR. MNYANI : If we go you should not backbite us. Immediately we take steps to go to Pretoria you will start sitting onthe telephone and advising that department. (Laughter) Why you fear to accompany us is because it is now clear that you have never taken the trouble tó make these representations.
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
(General uproar)
THE CHAIRMAN : THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon the mover to reply, if he wishes.
Order , order .
MR. MNYANI ; It is clear that these people have never made representations . The only thing you have achieved is to collect school -children when you get there and listen to their music. (Laughter)
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in closing my argument in connection with this motion which I brought before the House I will add these few words. In the first place, when there is something to be done in this House a committee is usually appointed or elected , and members of that committee are chosen from both sides of the House . Last year there was a deputation appointed by the caucus of the Government side and the Opposition party caucus to approach the hon. the Chief Minister with a view to increasing salaries of the members of this House , but now when an attempt is being made for people to be paid better wages or salaries in the Republic that side now refuses . THE CHAIRMAN : not in the motion.
Go to Pretoria.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Can you prove that?
MR. MNYANI : And when you get there you tell the people to come back to the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER: M. Chairman , the hon. member must prove his allegation or, if he cannot, he must withdraw. MR. MNYANI : On the 14th December , 1967 , in the Daily Dispatch the headline is " Return to the Transkei Call by Kaizer Matanzima " . THE article.
The question of wages is
MR. MNYANI : If you will allow me , Mr. Chairman, this is what I mean. The Government side seem to want to be like people who think of themselves and not of others . One speaker asked why it is that other homelands are not included . Those other homelands have their own members . If the Republican Government can agree that the influx control regulations be repealed it is not only the Transkei which would benefit, however , but the whole of the Republic. The reason why we clamour for a deputation composed of Government members as well as Opposition members is because we observe the difficulties faced by the citizens of the Transkei in that there are no border industries round the Transkei , but other homelands have got border industries . It is an indisputable fact that economic integration occurs in South Africa and I can see no reason why that could not happen within the Transkei . In fact, this economic integration was an issue in the Republic during the last elections . It surprises us today because last year we nearly came to an agreement as far as this issue was concerned , the only difference being that you said a person looking for work should go and look for work
MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
Read the
MR. MNYANI : No , I am satisfied with my cutting. You should read your own. To follow up my argument you can read yours. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Read it. MR. MNYANI : " Return to the Transkei Call by Kaizer... "
(General uproar) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I submit I have never made such a statement. Now I would like him to read the whole statement. (Interjections ) This is a lie . THE CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the hon. member to substantiate his statement. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He was not present. MR. MYYANI : Mr. Chairman, will you give me an extension? (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
256 ,
MR. MNYANI : " There was a critical shortage of teachers , nurses , magistrates in the Transkei ...."
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect I will ask you to allow me to explain.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That's right, you are referring to labourers , not to teachers and other people .
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, I am asking the hon. member to withdraw the statement that K.D. Matanzima said people must come back to their homes .
THE CHAIRMAN : continue.
Let him
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Withdraw that statement , because you cannot substantiate it.
MR. MNYANI : "...Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima , Chief Minister of the Transkei , said here...." Tued's bict Javi 978 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , you are talking about labourers . Read on.
MR. MNYANI : According to your ruling, Sir, I withdraw. Nevertheless the teachers are also affected by influx control . (Interjections )
Order, please.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . MR. MNYANI : "He appealed to the Xhosa people living in the Free State to send their people to school ..." GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MNYANI : We now urge that this House should unanimously take up this question of influx control because these regulations now affect even people who are salesmen and it also now affects the professional men, doctors and so on. They are told they must have their practices in the homelands .
Yes, yes , read
on.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Well , go to Pretoria. You have been given liberty.
THE CHAIRMAN :
Order, please.
MR. MNYANI : "....in order to serve the Married women were being emTranskei. ployed as teachers because there was a shortage of teachers in the Transkei. "
MR. MNYANI : We ask this Government to go with us to Pretoria and if this Government.... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Pretoria .
Go then, go to
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order . THE CHIEF MINISTER: That's right. Carry
on. THE CHAIRMAN: of the press cutting? MR. MNYANI :
Have you come to the end
No , must I continue reading
MR. MNYANI : If this Government is afraid on account of its commitments with the Republican Government, we will go even if this Government does not help us with funds . We will even go on a third- class carriage. (Interjections )
it?
THE CHAIRMAN : THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , he can stop now. He must substantiate his point with regard to the labourers . He is talking about labourers . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I appeal to the hon. member to resume his seat. He must substantiate his statement that the Cabinet Ministers have said that the labourers must be sent back to the Transkei . (Interjections ) MR. MNYANI : the Black people .
Order , please.
MR. MNYANI : We will not go back making empty promises to the people but we will succeed on this question of influx control . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , please stop making this noise . MR. MNYANI : If we are unsuccessful we will go and tell the electorate that we have not been successful.
Influx control applies to all
THE CHIEF MINISTER: hon. members , I appeal ....
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Mr. Chairman and
THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute. What I have asked you to do is to substantiate the statement you made . Your motion deals with influx control but what you read has nothing to do with influx control because influx control deals with ordinary labourers , not with teachers and professional people . I will ask you to withdraw that statement.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, withdraw. You are liars , we have told you.
Go, then, go!
MR . MNYANI : We will not be like these Cabinet Ministers who always state they are considering the matter. (General uproar) THE CHAIRMAN : MR. MNYANI : for seven years .
Order.
They have handled this matter
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , you must remember we have a stenographer here who is taking down notes and if you are making such a 257 .
person, and they will eat of the same morsel eaten by the person who provides accommodation. I am surprised to hear you say that the people from the Transkei will become thieves on arrival on the Reef.
noise she cannot hear. The speaker, too, must see to it that he gives a chance to the interpreter .
MR. MNYANI: I am thankful to hear the hon. the Chief Minister say he is going to take a hundred years . (Interjections )
THE CHIEF talking about?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. MNYANI : It means that a person of my age and those people who are not yet born will never see this question of influx control dealt with. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. to the Cabinet Ministers to stop.
MINISTER:
What are you
MR. MNYANI : It is obvious that while you sell your people through these contracts you think they will turn out to be thieves. (Interjections) It is quite evident that whenever you approach that Government you are just told about this R1 which you collect, if you ever do so. We hear that these Ministers have gone over to consult with other Ministers in the Republic , but what actually happens is that they go up and down the streets and the cars in which they are travelling collide with others. (Laughter) Ithank you, Mr. Chairman, and I ask you when you vote to think, and think for the people and forget about those people who only satisfy their own bellies.
I appeal
MR. MNYANI : As far as accommodation is concerned that matter was dealt with satisfacHe says torily by the hon. Mr. Nkosiyane. there are empty hostels on the Reef which are unoccupied. We Black people have never allowed people to sleep outside in the open. Those who have houses will give accommodation. The people who have gone out to seek work in those centres , who have travelled on their own not having taken up any contracts will receive accommodation from friends and from any
Question put and amendment accepted by 65 votes to 20 after a division as follows :-
AYES
NOES Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Mr. G. Ndabankulu Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Banzindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli ted waxbdfw Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso TE IM SHT Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli NgcongoloY WEID
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Godfrey Mafu Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani
TOTAL : 20 TELLERS : 1. L. L. Mgudlwa 2. L.I. Cemane
258.
Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George M. Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch kaTshunungwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau Mr. Robert Bertram Msengana TOTAL : 65
TELLERS : 1. R. Msengana 2. H. Mafukula blishment of these factories in the Transkei cannot be expedited , all the aims mentioned in the speech by Dr. Venter will be of no avail. We know that in the establishment of factories much has to be considered , especially things like water and raw materials . We often hear it said that we have plenty of water in the Transkei because we have the Umzimvubu River and the Bashee , and in Umzimkulu and some parts of Pondoland we can see there is a possibility that we can establish industries . Speaking on the policy speech one of the hon. members said there are plenty of watermelons in the area and a factory could be established there because of the proximity of the Bashee River. I will not be lengthy, Mr. Chairman. Youwill remember that all along the Jewish people were a scattered race until 1948 when they were given independence , after which they settled in their own country. Today that country is the most progressive in all respects . Slow as it is , we would like our country to be like that of the Jews because in any case ours is a greater country than Israel. I will reserve everything else I have to say until my reply.
Motion as amended put and agreed to. ESTABLISHMENT OF FACTORIES IN TRANSKEI CHIEFTAINESS A.N. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of expediting the establishment of factories throughout the territory wherever it is practicable in order to accommodate thousands of our people who are now going to be thrown out of work as clerks , shop assistants , etc. , as a result of the implementation of that legislation aimed at reserving such jobs for the White people in the Republic. " In speaking to this motion , Mr. Chairman, I wish to say that no-one will have missed what Dr. Koornhof said about the jobs I have mentioned in my motion in connection with jobs which are to be reserved for Whites in the Republic . It is a sore point for us , particularly in the Transkei. This motion is on the same lines as our amendment to Motion No. 18. If what we said in our amendment to that motion is implemented then what is required in this motion will be for the benefit of these people , particularly in regard to employment. We are aware of the tea project and the factory at Butterworth but these are a mere drop in the ocean and are inadequate for the Transkei . On page 81 in the book called the Economic Development of the Transkei we come across a lecture by Dr. Venter. In paragraph 2 he says : "The road to ultimate political independence requires the construction of various foundation stones before one can really talk about the real benefits of political independence . Amongst others these foundation stones include educational development , agricultural development, industrial development and family planning. " If the question of the esta-
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: motion.
I second the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Isecond. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wish to say I am reluctantly giving in to what the hon. the Chief Minister has just said because we still have twenty minutes , but because he is the Chief Minister I will agree. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I am not moving this frivolously. It is because a member must have thirty minutes to speak . 259.
hended the students and took them to Umtata. Of the 216 students arrested, 135 were released today - i.e. within 48 hours of their arrest. 54 students will be charged with public violence or malicious injury to property. Bail will be arranged . 27 students have been charged with causing a disturbance and in these cases R5 admission of guilt will be accepted . Some of these students have already paid. I wish to stress that depite reports to the contrary, the police did not act under the provisions of Proclamation 400 but did so under their normal powers and authorities . The riot was organised beforehand but there is no indication , as yet, of the cause of the incident. The students , however, have admitted that their intention was to burn down the whole institution.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 22nd May, 1970. FRIDAY, 22nd MAY, 1970
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the imposition of a tax as centemplated in the Transkeian Imovable Property Taxation Bill , 1970 .
ESTABLISHMENT OF FACTORIES IN TRANSKEI
TRANSKEIAN IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TAX BILL : 1970
The debate was resumed . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to move an amendment to the motion by the hon. member for Willowvale , Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau, to delete all the words after "are" in the third line and to substitute therefor the words " seeking employment" , so that the motion reads as follows : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of expediting the establishment of factories throughout the territory wherever it is practicable in order to accommodate thousands of our people who are seeking employment . " Mr. Chairman, it is a pity to note the disease which is consuming the Government side . That disease is the policy of separate development, which has affected all of them from the leader right down to the lowest of the members ofthe governing side. I am going to read certain extracts from the speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior. He said : "I know that quite a lot has already been said on the subject of resettlement and I have no doubt that the protagonists of multi- racialism will have more to say on the subject. "
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Immovable Property Taxation Bill , 1970 , and I move that the bill be now read a first time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the second reading of the bill will be on Wednesday, 27th day of May, 1970 . ANNOUNCEMENTS THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I wish to make a statement later in connection with the disturbance at Shawbury Institution, and I move that the rules of the House be waived to allow me to read it.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , in order to expedite matters I think it is just the difference in phraseology because those people who will be thrown back will be seeking work, so the intention is the same.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , during the afternoon of the 19th May, 1970 , 216 students in classes ranging from Forms II to V at Shawbury High School held a meeting on the hostel premises from whence they then proceeded to collect stones from outside the hostel grounds . There was no more activity until midnight of the 19th May , 1970 , when these students got up, dressed and in a body started stoning the hostel buildings . One of the students warned the Warden , who switched on the floodlights which were promptly stoned by the students . In attempting to intervene, both the Warden and the Principal of the High School were attacked with stones. As the matter had now got completely out of hand the police were summoned , and on their arrival they too were stoned. At this stage the students all fled into the bush. The police followed , appre-
MR. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member gives us the impression that they are accepting the amendment then we need not proceed. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: That is what we say . MR. K.M. GUZANA: They are not the movers of the motion. Let the mover say whether she agrees. MR. MADIKIZELA : Ifthey agree , Mr. Chairman, we need not proceed . THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to get the amendment in writing, then I shall call for a seconder.
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MR. G.G. KUTU:
THE CHAIRMAN: The other members must please keep quiet.
I second , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of Justice has indicated ....
MR. MGUDLWA: Though I rented a room in town deductions were made from my salary in regard to the house which I was not occupying. That meant the Government was collecting rent from a house which was not occupied . I was thus placed in difficulties because I paid rent for the room I occupied in town, as well as on this government building. In fact, people want to buy these buildings as they are decent houses . The population increases daily and there is lack of accommodation. I thus move this motion.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Actually, the mover will indicate , Mr. Chairman. CHIEFTAINESS A.N. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman, in view of the principle being the same in both the motion and the amendment, we will accept the amendment.
Agreed to.
CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second.
Motion as amended put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I contribute to the discussion on the motion moved by the hon. member for Engcobo, I would like to move the following amendment: To delete all the words after the words "advisability of" and substitute therefor the following words :- "disposing of all former Bantu Trust civil servants ' houses now owned by the Transkeian Government which are situate miles away from Transkeian villages and towns in remote African areas to aspirant African buyers who have the funds to buy such unoccupied houses for their families , provided that the Tribal Authority and Regional Authority in the area are agreeable. "
SALE OF UNOCCUPIED BANTU TRUST HOUSES
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before moving this motion I will ask the House to allow me to add the words "and land whereon they are situated " after the word "houses". I move accordingly:- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of selling all former Bantu Trust civil servants ' houses and the land whereon they are situated , now owned by the Transkei Government, which are situate miles away from Transkeian villages and towns and in remote African areas to aspirant African buyers who have the funds to buy such unoccupied houses for their families . "
In short, Mr. Chairman , hon. members, this amendment in principle is the same with the motion, but the amendment is intended to remove practical difficulties . Before the promulgation of the proclamation which transferred all land in the Transkei from the Trust to the Transkeian Government these buildings were on Trust land and therefore they belonged to the Trust, and with the transfer of the land to the Transkei Government the same position obtained . The buildings belonged to the Transkei Government and the land belonged to the Transkei Government. It must be appreciated that these buildings fall in administrative areas and these administrative areas are under the jurisdiction of the tribal authorities and the regional authorities . In other words , the type of tenure of these buildings is that of a certificate of occupation and therefore they are in the same position exactly as the kraal sites that we have in the administrative areas . We are awaiting the day when the tribal authorities and the regional authorities will agree and make recommendations to the Government to the effect that kraal sites in the administrative areas should be converted into full freehold title rights . In the meantime we feel it would not be practicable in the administrative areas to have some of the residential areas converted into full freehold title deeds while the others are not, because the hon. Mr. Guzana , for instance , if he has a kraal site in the administrative area, following on a decision on this might as well require his own kraal site to be turned into a freehold kraal site .
In bringing this motion before the House I hope we will unanimously agree upon it because , if you remember, these houses were erected with public funds. They were built far away from the towns where these civil servants work and the position today is that you find these buildings unoccupied . The cause of this state of affairs is that these buildings being far from the towns, the people occupying them have to walk long distances in every type of weather . Most of these houses have been built in the rural locations and some people are interested in buying these properties. I know of one case of a person wanting to buy a house in such a situation. This has happened in Tsolo as well as Engcobo. When these buildings are unoccupied they deteriorate , and it is only right that money should be made through the use of these houses . At present they are not used . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member (Chief M. Tantsi ), please sit down otherwise I shall ask you to go outside . MR. MGUDLWA: Shortly after I arrived from Natal , because I occupied a certain post.... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Iwill ask the hon. member , Chief Tantsi to go outside. MR. MGUDLWA: Because I held a certain post it was necessary that I should use that building and, on account of the fact that this building was far out of town where I worked, I had to rent a room in the village .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : May I just put this point, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I am correct, within a municipal area you have people with rights to title and yet 261 .
rural areas . The mover of the motion was himself at a loss to speak to the motion and had to sit down. Here is my chief who resides at a railway station and is also unable to speak to the motion and had to resume his seat. I want to say to the Opposition (Laughter ) members that we in Umzimkulu have a lot of farms which we acquired from the Whites , and there are very good buildings on these Trust farms . The regional authority itself has given
you will have people with a certificate of occupation that is , in areas where there is the site and service scheme - so that I have not known of any administrative difficulties arising from ....
Have you THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : finished your question? Don't discuss . MR. GUZANA : What would be the administrative difficulties in an administrative area where specifically these houses and the land is available for ownership under title deed?
a lot of sites to needy people in the district. The mover suggests that a rich man from Cape Town may come and buy a large piece of land , even as much as four hundred morgen, where he will live in luxury in the same way as the Europeans we have chased away. We are working for the benefit of our children and we want everybody to have sufficient land. That is why we have turned out the rich people - because our sons have nowhere to live . We want a fair apportionment of these lands so as to satisfy I am of opinion that the mover our sons. should withdraw his motion and accept the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice . If he forces matters we will cause him to do what he wants in his own area and not in other He speaks thus because there is no areas . Trust land in his area. The chiefs are there to work for the benefit of the people. A man in one area should look after the interests of those people in his area and a man who lives at the railway station should not say anything which will affect us in the rural areas. I hope he will withdraw his motion .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I think this question is far -fetched . In municipal areas you have a whole area where people can have freehold rights like we have here in the whole of Umtata , Umtata , for instance this area where we are. You have Ncambedlana, the same , and you have another whole area where people can only have certificates of occupation like the municipal area of Ngangelizwe, but this motion does not seek to have such areas where people can have that. It is just one little site in a whole area which is occupied.... MR. GUZANA: Your argument is fallacious , but carry on. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yours is far-fetched and mine is fallacious , if you like it that way . The position is this · that the amendment seeks to facilitate what the hon. member wants and the persons concerned , as I have said, in whose area of jurisdiction such houses are, like the tribal authorities and the regional authorities , will have to be consulted. But the sale of such houses should be merely the sale of improvements on the site , or the disposal will be merely of the improvements on the site and the site remaining the property of the Government in the jurisdiction of the tribal or regional authority . I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the intention of the motion as amended by the mover is quite clear and specific. First of all , he seeks that these houses be made available to intending buyers . Under the present system of land tenure it would mean that the buyer of these houses would only be buying the improvements and would have a certificate of occupation in relation to the land on which the house stands. Now, these houses may well be sold or valued at R1,000 or R2,000 and this means quite a big investment on improvements which stand on land which does not belong to the buyer of the improvements . Now, that is an anomalous situation . In effect it means that this man, in spite of the high investment in the purchase of the improvements , can be moved by a majority of the residents if a soil conservation scheme is accepted. We are aware of the fact that whenever people are moved from one residential area to another the compensation is hardly adequate to put up a similar structure on the new site and those who buy these houses , therefore , may well lose in such circumstances . The hon. the Minister of Justice has indicated that the land ownership vests in the Transkei Government but is administered by local authorities as well as regional authorities . There is therefore no difficulty facing this Government if it were to accept that in respect of these particular sites on which houses have been put up they should be held under title deed. It is not intended at the present moment that title ownership should embrace the whole administrative area. That is the ultimate view, and the ultimate object, but the houses at the present moment are deteriora-
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU: Isecond. CHIEF H. ZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the mover of the amendment has already stated that the amendment is the same in principle as the motion. We already know that it is the practice that the governing side, whenever the Opposition moves anything, will always add something or try to remove something by way of canvassing future votes.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Don't be thick-headed. You don't realise the legal implications of this . CHIEF ZULU: We do not oppose the amendment because it is the same as the motion. We know that these buildings are in locations which are under the local authorities . We do not know what necessitated the amendment. (Interjections) I have nothing further to add in this connection, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is to be regretted that when a vital and important matter of land is being discussed here people from the urban areas should introduce motions · people who know nothing about
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district but we have cases which come before the court on this matter and we know the position.
ting because they remain vacant. The Government is receiving rental in respect to those houses because they are usually allocated to a particular official, and that official has to rent another house which is conveniently near his place of employment. The ultimate result will be that these houses are going to fall down because they are vacant, and we submit that in order to induce people to buy the houses they should be given title just to the plot on which the houses stand. The hon. the Minister of the Interior said blocks within a municipal area are set aside for title deed ownership and for site occupation . Under the same argument these particular plots with these houses onthem will be set aside specifically for ownership under title deed, whilst the rest of the administrative area will be occupied under a certificate of occupation. It has already been the policy of this Government to make ownership of immovable property available to Africans in the Transkei and at the present moment this Government is introducing a bill to tax immovable property. If these properties, these Bantu Trust civil servants ' houses , including the land on which they stand were to be sold together with the land, this would be a source of revenue for this Government.
MR. GUZANA : You have not explained that position to us and we are not dealing with farms here. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is the same as a farm . No, my objection to this MR. GUZANA : matter of not granting title deed to property owners is that the chiefs want to use this land to cow their subjects . They allot land just as they please, they lend out land to people, they take it back as they please. They do not even get this man to the magistrate to obtain a certificate of occupation and cases have been known where chiefs and headmen sell this land and I think the chiefs will admit that they do that. (Laughter) GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No. MR. GUZANA : Of course I expected a "No" because if they said "Yes" they would be subject to criminal prosecution. (Laughter) But if you are already doing it, why not legalise it and let people have title to the property? That is what you are doing. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I ask the hon. member a question? I would like to know from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as to the question of jurisdiction of tribal authorities with regard to the persons who will have full title right ownership on the properties within their area of jurisdiction, what will be the right of jurisdiction of the tribal authority over such person?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. GUZANA : We have not pushed you that far at the present moment. You see , the Government owns those houses and they might as well sell the land to the man who buys the house. The Government in so arranging such a sale will consult with the tribal authority and also with the regional authority, but it should be accepted as a principle . (Interjections ) That is a matter which is purely administrative. You are trying to include in the motion a purely administrative matter.
MR. GUZANA : The hon. Minister has asked what will be the right of jurisdiction over the people in these properties . I see no difficulty as to the jurisdiction of the tribal authority over these people, just as much as the tribal authority has jurisdiction over persons staying with others within the administrative area. If, for instance , a person has visited into an administrative area he immediately falls under the jurisdiction of that tribal authority so long as he is within the area of jurisdiction of that tribal authority. Thus a man who has title deed to this land on which these houses are built will attend the meetings requiring the residents to appear at the headman's place. If the residents decide , for instance , to levy themselves for the purpose of putting up a school , he will fall under that levy. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And if he refuses to pay the levy?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : jection to the amendment?
What is your ob-
MR. GUZANA: I will not have any objection if you agree that the land should be sold with the house in consultation with the tribal authority. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The land might be given as a gift to the tribal authority for a clinic. MR. GUZANA : If it is given as a gift to the tribal authority, why not give it to the man who has paid for the improvements? He is already paying rent there and is giving the Government income. You cannot justify your resistance tothis legitimate request.
MR. GUZANA: Just as much as these levies are decided by a majority and there are those who oppose, so will he fall in with the majority. A person does not become an individual unto himself just because he has title deed to land . (Interjections) I think what the fear of this Government is is to have anybody who can stand on his own feet without falling on his face before the esteemed presence of a chief. That is all.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In as much as you cannot justify yours . MR. GUZANA : The important thing is that the house accrues to the land....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, we have cases which have come before the courts on this matter. You have no farms in the Umtata
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is known. 263.
the boundaries ofthe regional authorities, we feel that in matters of this nature there should be consultation between regional authorities on the one hand and the Government on the other, the tribal authority on the one hand and the Government on the other. The nature of disposal of this land is a matter which should be agreed upon by the two parties. I want to quote, Mr. Chairman, what took place in my area some time back - a district which is unsurveyed . The late Mr. Willy Piliso purchased property belonging to a certain Mr. Daniel Letlaka and paid him R200 . There is nothing to stop anybody if he wants to occupy any of those houses from paying the price ofthe improvements which can be agreed upon. Now, I am appealing to the hon. members across the floor to agree to this amendment because it is more sensible than the original motion and, as a matter of fact, if they agree to this amendment then the tribes will not raise objections to the selling of these properties by the Government. I want to assure the hon. members across the floor that my Cabinet will not agree to this, so why pass a motion when you know it will not be considered?
MR. GUZANA: ....and so if you intend to sell you must sell the land also . I strongly support the motion as amended by the mover . As for the hon. member for Umzimkulu who is worried over farms and things like that, I just don't know if he does own a farm at all. He cannot boast about farms in the Umzimkulu area because he does not own a farm. He has the opportunity to buy a farm but he has not bought one. (Laughter) All he is sticking to is the government land he can use at will to intimidate his subordinates . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am surprised that the hon. members across the floor are not prepared to accept the amendment to this motion. It must be considered , and I submit that that is the correct view of this side of the House, that once a person has freehold title to land in the administrative area that particular land which is under title does not fall under the jurisdiction of a tribal authority. I am speaking here as an experienced administrator and judicial officer . There have been cases of this nature in my area of jurisdiction where many properties are under freehold title, when a man is brought before the court and holds title to a farm he puts an exception to the magistrate or the chief's court that he does not fall under the jurisdiction of the tribal authority - that the tribal authority has no jurisdiction over his land and therefore over himself because he does not fall in the location. Many of these cases have been upheld by the Bantu Affairs Commissioner on appeal from the chief's court. Well, I sympathise with the attitude of the hon. member across the floor because there are no administrative areas on this side which have freehold title to land right in the location, but if you go to Xalanga and St. Mark's district you find this situation. The object of deleting the word " sell" and substituting it by the words "dispose of" will leave it to the discretion of the Government in its negotiations with the tribal or regional authority as to what should be done with those houses . Now, the land on which these houses are situated belongs to the tribe. It is tribal land occupied by the tribe , although owned by the Government. Now, it must be the tribal or the regional authority that must agree to the sale of this property. In principle, this side of the House has no objection to the sale of the property, provided the tribal authorities and the regional authorities are agreeable, but the manner of disposal of the property must be a matter of common agreement between these authorities and the Government. We cannot agree with the idea that the Government must impose its authority as owner of the land on the tribe . If you look at section 59 of the Transkei Constitution Act there is a proviso to that section which says : "Provided that the boundaries of any regional authority area referred to in section 2 shall not be altered except with the consent of the regional authority; and that the land within any such regional authority area shall continue to be administered for the settlement , support , benefit and material and moral welfare of the tribes and ethnic groups residing therein at the commencement of the same. 11 Although this motion
MR. GUZANA : Cabinet.
We are not pampering the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You say the tribal land must be sold . You are appealing to the Government, you are moving a motion which must be considered by the Government and the motion must be reasonable in order to be considered. MR. GUZANA : It is reasonable . THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not reasonable. We have put an amendment here to assist you and the object of the amendment will not destroy the spirit . MR. GUZANA : What about the land? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The land is tribal land. I want to reiterate that: It is tribal land occupied by the tribe although owned by the Government. Those Trust buildings were erected after consultation with the tribe. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: The tribe does not occupy the land on which a particular house is built. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I will put it this way: The Government should never have erected those buildings without consulting the tribe. The Government has put up buildings on private You cannot run away from that. Now, land . my submission is that if the mover ofthe motion will agree to this amendment I think he will be very wise, otherwise if he does not and wants to push his own original motion the chiefs will be annoyed at this and it will never materialize. They own the land - it belongs to them and the tribe . MR. GUZANA : It does not belong to them, it belongs to the Government. They merely have usufructuary rights .
does not say anything about the alteration of
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these houses are situated on commonages and when stock is troublesome there the residents can object and say the houses hould be removed from the commonages. We agree that consultation should be held with the people.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Even in the days of the Republican Government they never did anything with the land without consulting the tribes, although they owned the land.
MR. GUZANA: The position is that we want the land to be sold with the improvements , after consultation with the authorities.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not in your motion. MR. MNYANI: It will not be something new to have some sites with title deeds near the towns. There is Ramahlokoana being established which will become small……..
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You do not say so , it is the amendment which says so, but the Government can dispose of the improvements as they please. The people can buy and it rests with the Government and the tribal or regional authorities to decide what the nature of title will be.
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
MR. GUZANA: Are you not taking it out of the administrative area?
MR. GUZANA: What would it be? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Certificate of occupation, quitrent or freehold. MR. GUZANA : amendment?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes. MR. MNYANI : I say these buildings will become small Ramahlokoanas and Ibisis. The hon. member for Umzimkulu is always misleading us. (Interjections) He made no mention of Ibisi and yet that is in his district. If those buildings are on tribal land the money for the purchase of the properties should be paid over to the tribal authorities . These people who have been in authority for a long time did not give us any example save merely to tell us there are administrative difficulties . If he had told us what difficulties were to be met we would probably be able to advise him of a solution. There are these stores which were owned by White people and they are situated in Bantu areas . They were held under freehold title deeds . Are those people who are going to buy such shops to become independent of any authority? The hon. Chief Mteto says it cannot happen in his area. I say it cannot happen in other areas either . If you stay with people the voice of the people always carries weight. Though we have title deeds in Ncambedlana we pay the fees required by the people who are not independent. As soon as a man becomes indpendent of others he is made to leave this world and people have their own ways of removing such a person, (Laughter ) and that way is final. People already know that the voice of the people is the voice of God.
Is that included in your
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , I say it must be left to the authorities to decide whether it shall be freehold or what. MR. GUZANA: But the mover of the amendment did not mention that. THE CHIEF "dispose of"…..
MINISTER:
But the words
MR. GUZANA : Yes, but it says "disposing of all former Bantu Trust civil servants ' houses" and stops there. He does not say "and the land" , but we want the land included . THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , we cannot do that. They must decide what to do. MR. GUZANA : That is why we accept the word "dispose of" if you include the word "land " . THE CHIEF MINISTER: We cannot bind the tribes and the authorities . MR. GUZANA: you say "dispose " .
You are not binding them if
A question , CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : please, Mr. Chairman. I should like to know from the hon. member for Umtata since when he has changed his ideas because today he wants people to hold title in the rural areas , but we know that he has been urging people in the location not to worry about title deeds and we also know he has title.
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the motion by the hon. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa . These houses have been put up at great cost. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member for Cofimvaba, Mr. Tshunungwa , order please. MR. MNYANI: For that reason we want any buyer of these buildings also to buy the land on which they are situated . (Interjections ) If the land does not belong to the buyer though he has bought the house on the land , he can be voted out and made to leave that land. THE CHIEF MINISTER: happen.
No , that is a town.
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I will replyto the question. I have not changed my ideas at all. Those people in the location put up those buildings on their own, well knowing that the land Likewise , a person did not belong to them. wanting to buy the land we are now speaking about will go along well knowing he has the money to buy the land and the building. You cannot just go and put up a building knowing that the land is not yours and all of a sudden you are told you must also buy the land . It was for that reason I gave that advice to the people of the
No , that does not
MR. MNYANI: It can happen in this manner, although they say it cannot happen. Some of
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MR. LANGA: I think if he is an elected member of the House , as far as his motion is concerned he should be very careful of what he is doing without the feeling of party politics , and I would suggest he should withdraw his motion because it will place him in a difficult position. To give an example , the area of Pondoland which was given to Faku in 1841....
location (Interjections so that they should choose and if they say they want title deeds , that is all right. I will also mention farms . The hon. member for Bizana is always boasting about his farm but he does not want other people to own farms . MR. E. DYARVANE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the hon. member on the floor whether he is not making a mistake by saying the "hon. member for Bizana " .
MR. MGUDLWA : Is this a point of order , Mr. Chairman? He is discussing.
MR. MNYANI : Yes , I made a mistake . I mean the hon. member for Umzimkulu. I thank your for your correction.
MR. LANGA: That land was given to him together with his .... THE CHAIRMAN : member.
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU: You have told the House that these buildings are ongrazing land, whereas out in Eastern Pondoland they are in the residential area. In any case, what is your worry, because both the tribal and regional authorities are composed of reasonable people? This business will go on well if you only agree to the amendment put forward.
MR. MGUDLWA : I am conscious of the fact that I represent people and I will always represent the people. For that reason when we represent the interests of the people we should see that they are not left in the lurch. There is a man who has to buy a house and not the land . The hon. member for Umtata referred to shops which were owned by the White people which have been sold, and those shops are situate on land with freehold title and yet the lands are situated in the administrative areas. I can see the lie in the statement made by the hon. the Chief Minister when he says that difficulty will be experienced as far as jurisdiction is concerned should these houses and land be sold . All appeals from tribal courts are heard in the magistrate's court and the hon. the Chief Minister says that on appeal these people are supported in that it is said that the tribal authority has no jurisdiction over them. But there is this one fact: Courts were made from the lowest to the highest court. Without going any further you come from the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court which is not a distance away from the tribal court. The Bantu Affairs courts can hear a dispute or a case involving Black people. We have not heard that the Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' courts have been dispensed with. I do not see anything to fear if these courts can still hear such appeals . What is the fear? Is it because the claimant or purchaser will not be bound to contribute donations to some authority? I am becoming suspicious about this addendum : "Provided that the tribal authority and the regional authority in the area are agreeable" , that certain dues will not be available . In the meantime the aspirant buyer is desperate. He has money but no place to stay. He wants to buy a place. We are aiming at the position that anyone who buys these places should have full ownership and maximum security. To refer to the hon. member for Umzimkulu, Chief Jozana , he did not speak he just babbled and collected all the rubbish . He spoke about Trust farms and as far as this motion is concerned it does not refer to Trust farms . I do not know whether he understands how my amended motion as well as the amendment of the hon. the Minister of Justice are related to each other. I will not worry about his speech. I will now turn to the remarks made by the hon. the Chief Minister. He spoke about the late Mr. Willy Piliso when he bought property from Mr. Daniel Letlaka .
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , I cannot dispute what has been said by the hon. the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni, when he said that these buildings are in residential areas , but some are out in the commonages or grazing areas . I am not a wanderer who goes all over the country to see where all these buildings are situated . (Laughter) I therefore support the motion.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on the sale of unoccupied Bantu Trust houses was resumed. THE CHAIRMAN: If there is any speaker on the Government side he may carry on. If there is none I shall ask the mover to reply, if he wishes . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make a few comments in reply and will first mention the amendment introduced by the hon. Chief G.M. Matanzima of Cofimvaba . He made an addendum after the words "advisability of" and when he got to the word "houses" he stopped short because of my addition "houses and the land whereon they are situated " . Then he carried on to the word "families " and then he added the words " provided that the tribal and the regional authority in the area are agreeable" . I myself , as well as the Opposition, are adamant that my amendment should stand as it is . When looking at the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice I compare that amendment to the figure 8 and the shape of an ant, ( Laughter) because the word "disposal of".... MR. B. LANGA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I am going to request the mover of the motion who is attempting to make a reply....
MR . MGUDLWA : replying.
Sit down, please , hon.
I am not attempting, I am
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a position to know what the reasons were. I only know the need for such expert services here in Umtata . Some cases require immediate attention and when attention is delayed on account of the distance , that places the patient in greater difficulty. It is a great pity to see a young man or girl limping when the condition could have been cured if the necessary steps had been taken timeously. As a result of such delays the patient may have to limp for the rest of his or her life. As I have already stated , this motion is as clear as crystal and it is born of the need of the people of the Transkei. We request that means should be made for such an orthopaedic doctor to visit the Umtata hospital regularly. I have heard talk from this side and that side that this motion is going to receive the support of the Government. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Though he spoke I could not relate his intention to the motion because he merely spoke as one who is blowing up a balloon which bursts in space . When the balloon bursts it cannot fill itself again . The hon. member for Umtata, Mr. B.S. Mnyani , told you in clear terms about this matter. A clear example in connection with these shops was made. Something has happened and now you say it should not happen when, in fact, a similar thing to what is being sought in this motion has actually taken place . Why should people who can afford to buy not be allowed to buy these properties? There is no reason whatsoever even though they say difficulties will be experienced. These buildings belong to the Transkei Government and formerly they were the property of the Bantu Trust. The land also belongs to the Transkei Government. What is the object of these consultations with this authority and that authority? Isn't it like a man who wants to go to Qumbu but ends his journey at Coffee Bay? I can see no reason why we should not be agreed upon unanimously in this motion. I would in fact accept the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice but on condition that he will also include my wording in his amendment. I therefore appeal to the whole House that this motion should be accepted unanimously. To revert to the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister, he spoke about farms in the Xalanga and St. Mark's districts but there is another farm in Qwebeqwebe . Those people have been submissive up to now. What do you fear? These buildings only occupy a very small piece of land . Perhaps the buyers will come from other places and that means an increase in the population and the tribal authority The therefore gains and should be pleased.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : I second , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this side of the House is not opposed to this motion. However, for the information of the hon. members of this House it might be interesting to know the following facts from the Department of the Interior . The State Health Department has informed this department that its continuous efforts to obtain the services of an orthopaedic surgeon to attend to cases at Umtata have to date been fruitless . All orthopaedic cases are at present sent to East London for attention. In those cases where people are unable to pay for their own transport they are transported at the expense of the State Health Department. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Motion put and carried unanimously.
presumption on innocence always prevails . A man is presumed to be innocent until the contrary is proved. I therefore think we should be agreed upon this matter. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
AMENDMENT
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government to amend the Workmen's Compensation Act so as to provide for the recipient to be given all his compensation if he so requires ."
Amendment put and agreed to. Motion put and negatived . Motion as amended put and agreed to. PROVISION
OF
VISITING SPECIALIST
OF WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT
ORTHOPAEDIC Since the inception of this Assembly this motion has constantly been brought forward , and when we go amongst the people they geneSome people get rally discuss this matter. compensation for miners ' phthisis , accidents and other things and these people are not paid the full amount but are paid in instalments at a certain rate , as though they are employed . This House agreed unanimously upon this question but all our representations have not as yet borne any fruit. It is for that reason that I once again introduce this motion . It is a matter which affects all the people . I therefore move and request this House to accept this motion unanimously so that the Transkei Government will make the necessary representations to the Republican Government.
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Health Department to send an orthopaedic doctor to visit Umtata monthly or so as was done before to attend those in need. " Mr. Chairman, this motion is very short and it is clear and to the point. I collected this idea from various people at various places who stated it is necessary to have these services which were performed by an orthopaedic doctor. From diverse districts , day in , day out people come to the local hospital making requests to go to the hospital in East London for orthopaedic attention. Some of them have difficulty in obtaining transport. It is possible that there are reasons for the withdrawal of the services of this doctor in Umtata . I am an ordinary layman and not in
MR. G.G. KUTU: I second. CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we on this side of the House feel
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that we sympathise with this motion and we do not wish to raise any objections to this. We therefore support the motion because we support all reasonable motions brought into this House. (Laughter) We don't just object for the sake of objecting . Even if this motion was raised in this House some time ago , we will support it now when it comes up again.
give him specifications . Let us not forget that land is an inheritance of the Black man, and that is why we are making representations for people to get land rights. I will stop and listen now and I will listen to any hon. member who opposes this motion and I will say he is opposed to the whole location. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I second, Mr. Chairman.
Motion put and carried unanimously.
Motion No. 51 by Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa withdrawn.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move an amendment to the motion by the hon. Mr. Madubela , that after the words "owners " the following words be added : "after consultation with the site owners". Mr. Chairman, there is something
TITLE DEEDS FOR MUNICIPAL SITE OWNERS MR. L.N. MADUBELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the motion as it stands:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of issuing title deeds to all municipal areas site owners . " As we are all aware , certain people in the Transkei have been given privileges , rightly, There are , however, by this Government. people who have been forgotten · those who have set up homes near the towns and villages , and some of these people have lived under municipal control for up to 30 years . These people have never had any security in those places as far as ownership is concerned . I will give an example by quoting the well -known location nearby here, the Ngangelizwe Location. These people have put up homes and houses but obviously these will not descend to their children. It happens that if a site owner in the Ngangelizwe Location dies , the Municipality is free to sell the site at whatever cost they decide , that is why I would like to know if there is any reason why they should not be issued with title deeds. If they are issued with title deeds they will know that their ownership is permanent. Another hardship in regard to this municipal control is that when a site owner wants to put up a structure he cannot do so unless he has agreed to a certain plan by the Engineer, yet if they were holders of title deeds they would be able to put up expensive dwellings in accordance with their means. It is just possible that the Municipality might make more money if title deeds were issued , perhaps the same amount as they get per year in a month. These people are prepared to pay any service charges such as water rates if they are issued with title deeds. We request that the municipality should see to it that the residents of the location are issued with title deeds in connection with buildings put up by them. Any hon. member who is acquainted with the location will agree with me when I say one does not like to take food into the location. However, I will not go into that matter now. I ask any hon. member who holds a title deed not to forget the many people who have no title deeds and who are likely to be ejected at any time . Let us take the case of a man who wants to raise a loan from the XDC or an insurance company for his building. He raises the loan and proceeds to put up a home in the location. When he gets to the location he will not put up the sort of building he wants unless he approaches the Engineer who will
which cannot be disputed by anybody because everyone wants security when they have land by holding it under freehold title deed. Much as we would like this there are some people who have no funds to acquire land. THE CHIEF MINISTER: apply for title.
Well, they won't
MR. MNYANI : Even amongst the White community there are those who haven't enough money and the authorities put up buildings for those people for which rent is paid, and when the occupier of that building gets a good salary he is told to leave those quarters and find some other place. The land referred to by the mover of this motion, the Ngangelizwe Location, is an area falling under the jurisdiction of the Municipality of Umtata. The Town Council of Umtata, which is not under this Transkei Government but under the Republican Government.... THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
We know that.
MR. MNYANI : The hon. the Chief Minister says they know that. The Council opened up that area to provide for those poor people to erect their own residences , because the Council realised that the poor people would not be able to buy land or sites in Ncambedlana or Norwood and build their own houses . (Interjections) The people there accepted that readily. They knew they were putting up buildings on land which did not belong to them and they were allowed to put up buildings to suit their pockets . Some people who have buildings in that location are old women who are paid pensions , (Interjections ) and this is how they make a living. They put up a rondavel which they let to others . One thing the hon. members should note is that the mover of the motion knows nothing about freehold title. He only knows matters pertaining to locations where quitrent is paid. In town if one is a holder of a freehold title deed , firstly you pay for the land on which you are going to erect a building; secondly, you will have to pay money so that a plan for your building is drawn for you by an architect. (Interjections ) This you have to submit to the Town Council to be passed by that body and you will be told to use burnt bricks . That is why I am saying that this matter should not be carried out unless consultation with the site owners is held. People who come from the rocky places of Qamata 268.
try to come and run things here . When a person who holds freehold title has permission to put up a building, the first day he buys the land he will have to have it valued and he will be assessed on the value . After the building is finished it will have to be valued again and assessed on the valuation . Added to that , there is a road tax which has been introduced by the hon. the Chief Minister and those people who are not receiving any wages or salary will have to pay that tax if they are holders of title deeds . I am not richer than these (Interjections ) Fortunately for me, my father was people. richer than these people and he left an inheritance to which I succeeded . I am telling you Mr. Chairman, there are those the truth.
As a matter of fact, I do not think the words he has added constitute an amendment, but only a suffix . We would like our location brethren to have title deeds because of the value of title deeds . One who wants a title deed will make application for it in accordance with his means . There is no need for these delaying tactics shown by the mover - that the people should be consulted when they have already said they want these title deeds . People want to live in their own properties for which they hold title deeds . The very way in which people like the brother of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition live is disgraceful. (Laughter) People who have reached a certain standard should be proud of themselves and should know that the land belongs to them. That is why we on this side of the House want to see to it that location residents are issued with title deeds , because in due course these properties will be inherited by their children. Do you think it is a good and proper thing that when a person pays rent for 30 years his child should continue to pay rent when he dies , instead of the money being taken for the purchase price of the land? The hon. Mr. Mnyani , who says he is a representative of the people and yet opposes such a good thing, should buy the Dispatch tomorrow in the location, because the location residents themselves say they want these title deeds . Why oppose something which the people themselves want and which is their right? When once you hold a title deed it is the end of police raids by night on your home . People in Ncambedlana have title deeds and there they relaxed police supervision. Do you want the location to live in oppressive slavery conditions for ever? The hon. member for Umtata , Mr. B.S. Mnyani , says it would appear that all these people will be forced to have these title deeds. I dispute that because if the Municipality of Umtata agrees to the issue of these title deeds it will sell the land piecemeal to those who want site or, alternatively, a certain area could be set aside for those who want title deeds. But even if they have to live in that mixed manner, whoever wants a title deed should have it. I am very much in favour of these title deeds because one person might wish to put up an expensive building and he will be able to use that house as a means of raising a loan because he has a substantial building . So even those people in the location who are desirous of putting up substantial buildings are hesitant because the land is not theirs . We should not at all disturb the progress of the people . The hon. member for Umtata says the location residents pay R2 a month and R24 a year. He goes on to say the holders of title deeds will pay R4 a month . The annual amount for one who pays R2 a month will be R24 . Extend the period over which this money is paid to 30 years and he will go on paying this amount on How long property which will never be his. shall we leave these people under this hardship? In short, I want to say that in all the locations adjoining these towns and villages in these Territories the residents should be issued with title deeds. Before I sit down I will comment briefly on the remark by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . He says we contradict ourselves because only this morning we refused the issue of title deeds in the rural areas , because,
people who live in the location who pay R2 per month . This amount was assessed because it was well known that they are receiving insufficient wages . The R2 is in connection with night removals and also for removing refuse and If they had freehold title deeds for water. they would be liable to pay R2 a month for these Charges for refuse would be inservices . cluded and they would pay an extra R2 for water as is done by those residents of Ncambedlana . You have to lead water to your premises and It is for your houses at your own expense . that reason we say this should be accepted first by the people who reside in that location and it should not be brought upon those people by those who come from Zimbane Location or from the rocks of Qamata . The hon. members must not mislead the House and tell the people it will only affect those who so desire . It is impossible to have one site with freehold title and the other with certificate of occupation. Ifthat is accepted by the people of Ngangelizwe it will affect all the residents of that location . (Interjections ) THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , that is not true. MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect I request the hon. member not to steamroll people in matters in which he has not consulted them . He must not believe that simply because he is on the Government side he should just steamroll people. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
MR. MNYANI : The people of the location will come to their own decision and we will do what those people desire . Mr. Chairman, with those few words I move the amendment. MR. second.
K.M.
GUZANA :
Mr.
Chairman,
I
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was expecting the hon. the Chief Minister to move the adjournment of the House because I want to deal minutely with the mover of the amendment in the nonsense he has put before the House . In the first place , if a person says he is a representative of the people, as the hon. member who has just sat down says , he should first see to the interests of the people he represents . Leadership is born and a leader must see that whatever he advocates is for the benefit of the people. I am speaking on the point of the issue of title deeds , because there is no need to go to anyone to ask if that person wants a title deed or not.
269 .
in accordance with an Act passed in 1966 by this Assembly, all that happened was the return to the chiefs of the land that belonged to them and we could not say that without the permission of the tribal authorities and the regional authorities land should be sold. Land in a municipal area is different from the land under the control of chiefs and that is why we say residents in the municipal locations should be given title deeds , but residents in the rural areas are under the chiefs . (Interjections ) We wish it to be as clear as crystal that the land of the chiefs and their tribes cannot be sold to all and sundry, where you will hold your nightly meetings . Don't try and mix two things which cannot be Let the people in the urban areas of mixed. the Transkei get title deeds . The sooner that is done the better. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Then again, I am surprised that he should think of abolishing what is known for Africans as a "municipal location" for residence purposes. There must always be a place of residence where the rental is cheap to cater for the low-income groups . Arrangements have been made by the Republican Government for Whites in a particular income bracket to have sub-economic houses to rent. The rent is subsidized for these people, the houses are standardized and these people are therefore able to have a home of their own because they are assisted by the Government so to do. They have homes , but they do not own either the house or the land which they occupy. Now, you compare the position of a streetsweeper in Umtata, the domestic servant, the government labourer with those Whites who have this assistance from the Government. Are they insufficient for this House to suggest that they should be compelled to buy immovable property? Is it possible for them economically to put aside a certain amount of money per month to buy immovable property? Let us assume that they earn R140 a year , or a little more than that, and the head of the family has his wife and three or four children to maintain . Is it possible for him to take some of that money and use it to buy property with a view to owning it? I suggest that it is economically impossible for him to do so. Now, let us assume, for the benefit of the mover, that the Provincial Administration agrees to sell land in the municipal location to the present site owners . These people in their poor economic condition try to buy and the instalment they can afford to pay is the R2 per month which they now pay as an all -inclusive fee for the services of the Municipality rendered to them. An erf will cost something like R600 or R700 , so that the buyer pays R24 a year with a view to ulimately paying R700 in all. It is going to take him 28 years to own the immovable property without a house on it. Having acquired it after 28 years , he then has to build. In the meantime he has been living in a hut on the premises and the Council over this period of 28 years has been insisting that he should put up a house which complies with municipal specifications . How is he going to build this house after the 28 years? To my mind the mover seeks to put the cart before the horse. What should happen is that, first of all , the economic level of the person living in a municipal location should be raised , but even then there will still be the labourer who cannot afford to buy immovable property and the municipal authorities will have to provide a place again where these people can live within their limited means . If a municipal location is no longer a municipal location, then it means that only people who buy can live in that area, and
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 25th May, 1970. MONDAY, 25th MAY, 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF BILLS THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Tuesday , the 26th day of May, 1970 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to privide for pensions or other financial benefits for persons in the service of the Government of the Transkei or their dependants and to provide for other incidental matters . TITLE DEEDS FOR MUNICIPAL SITE OWNERS The debate was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the motion as amended by the hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani. First of all , it does seem that the idea is ill - conceived by the mover of the motion. Municipal ground is administered by the Municipal Council and is vested in the Provincial Administration, and it would appear that to request this Government to issue title deeds in respect of land in the municipal area is to ask for something that this Government cannot do. One wants to ask the question as to whether or not the mover of this motion has had the green light from the Municipality of Umtata . For that reason I think the matter should not have been brought up, if indeed he has not got the backing of the Municipal Council . I am surprised further to find that he seeks to justify this motion by suggesting that in other parts of the Republic Africans own immovable property within municipal areas , and his seconder exploited this idea, suggesting that people in King William's Town had title deed . I think that allegation is incorrect, for ifmy information is correct the people in King William's Town, in Zwelitsha, are issued with title deeds on the quitrent system under a perpetual lease.
so they become squatters now on that land so long as they are unable to buy, just as you have squatters on a farm. (Interjections) Now, is that the intention of the mover - to make squatters of the people who are living in the municipal location? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : They are squatters now. MR. GUZANA : What stops the Municipality directing them to move away fromthis land
270.
if they are unable to buy? It has also been suggested rather ludicrously that some plots may be made available for purchase whilst others will remain as at present - that is , as land belonging to the Provincial Administration, so that owners of immovable property will live cheek by jowl with site occupiers. How is the Municipal Council going to administer such an area? How is it going to continue to charge the site owner R2 a month for all services whilst the property owner next-door to him has to pay the municipal rates laid down for property owners? I am advised that there is a portion of the commonage which is going to be cut up into erven, and my suggestion is that those who are living in the municipal location and want to own land should buy those erven which are going to be cut up. Those who have put up substantial houses in the municipal location of Umtata did so with their eyes quite open. They knew that they were merely occupying those sites and had to pay rent for those sites . They knew that the municipal location is set aside for the low- income group. They knew that there were properties available in Ncambedlana , and later in Norwood and a portion of the town of Umtata where they could buy land . Why should they seek now to change the land tenure system applicable in the municipal location to suit their own ends? If they seek to own immovable property they must move out of the location and buy in places where they can own such land . In fact, I am surprised that there is anybody within the municipal location of Umtata who says he wants to buy the land there, because there is a regulation to the effect that those of an income group above a certain figure should not live in the municipal location, and therefore their occupation of property there when they do not belong to that income group is irregular . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN :
MR. GUZANA: That's right, you live where you like to live but you are sometimes compelled to live where your pocket is able to keep you. I want to ask them why they have not bought themselves properties in Norwood, so that when they come here they can live in those properties in Norwood. (Interjections ) He askes me if I am going to give him the money, but he earns R93 a month whilst a member of this House and is getting R4 a day sessional allowance , but he won't go and buy property in Norwood but he wants to go and live at a municipal location and hire a hut at R2 a month and do his own cooking. And the seconder of the motion has graduated from a house to a hut inthe municipal location in order to save his pocket because it is a cheap place for him to live in. (Laughter) He saves his own pocket and he is taking advantage of the fact that the Municipality has made it possible for people in the location to live on this site and put R2 in their pockets and give cheap accommodation. So they are becoming dishonest about the whole matter now. The hon. member lives in Zimbane but he won't come and live in Norwood and he is unlikely ever to own property in Norwood, (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. GUZANA: Probably when he decides to live in the municipal location and pay R2 a month rent he will put up some rondavels there and put some money into his pocket. Let me give you an insight of what it is like to own immovable property within a municipal area. (Interjections) Order , please. Hon. THE CHAIRMAN: member , I am afraid I will have to send you outside . MR. GUZANA : If you live in Ncambedlana or Norwood and you own immovable property which has been improved , it may be property valued at, let us say, R3,000 to R5,000 . You will find that your annual rates are in the region of R100 to R120 which you have to pay to the Municipality because you own property within the municipal area. You pay because you own the immovable property - that is all. For that service charges you pay R24 a quarter is another R96 which is , added to R120 , R216 a year . You have to pay for electricity which may average R10 , R14 or R15 , as the case may be , or even R20 a month. That is about R240 a year so that to own a house within a municipal area under title deed costs you something like R400 to R450 a year , and that is putting it at the lowest. You want the man who is earning R120 a year and who has to maintain his family to be faced with a bill like that, merely to own immovable property! Here lies the importance of the amendment to the effect that there must be consultation with the said site owners , so that they will consider their financial position and you don't consider your desire to gain popularity at the expense of the pockets of these people living in the municipal location. If you seek to champion the cause of a people you must take into account their financial position and ask whether or not they will be able to enjoy that privilege and take advantage of it
Order , please.
MR . GUZANA : Then I have noticed that in the municipal location of Umtata people put up rondavels , and some of them rent out these rondavels at R2 per month, so that if a person has three rondavels he or she is earning R6 per month for tental and this tends to supplement their income . Immediately the Municipality becomes an area where people can buy the land this is going to come to an end , for the Municipality specifically directs that outhouses shall not be rented out. It is the owner or the householder who must have the sole use of all buildings within the erf, and outhouses must be used to accommodate domestic servants and not tenants who pay rent. Is the mover of this motion seeking to have this applicable in the municipal location? (Interjections ) It is not, certainly, his intention to take the bread out of the mouths of these people who supplement their income by receiving this rental . The queerest feature about this whole matter is that people who are moving this motion do not want to go and stay at the Transkei Hotel , but there is one who wants to hide himself in a cheap place at the municipal location. (Laughter) Why are they doing so when they have a comIfortable hotel available to them ? (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. 271 .
when you have extended it to them. Mr. Chairman.
of the Assembly do not live in this location and they want to place hardships on the people who live there. Because they are in the majority they will demand a vote and in passing it they will be oppressing the people of the location. If I were the Leader of that side of the House I would suggest that they withdraw. If a vote is taken in this matter I will walk out. I fully support the amendment and I have already expressed the views of the people that they are against this move. I attended the meeting at the location on Saturday.
Thank you,
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise up in support of the amendment to the motion by the hon. Mr. Mnyani . I support him particularly in view of what I have observed. I appeal earnestly to this House that laws of this nature should not be forced down the throats of the people. It is only fair that people should be given an option, and in any case they should not have things pushed down their throats by people who do not even live amongst them. Nobody will know anything about location conditions when he lives in the rural areas. Hardships experienced in the municipal locations are known only to the Even if a person residents of the location. is a member of this House he should consider the conditions under which people live. A member should not just think, because he is of a higher standard , he should put people into difficulties . Before a member of this Assembly
THE CHAIRMAN: You are repeating yourself now, hon. member , I will allow one more speaker before closing the debate. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on a matter affecting title deeds because I am one person who is keenly interested in title deeds . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
brings a matter before the Assembly he should first consult with the people. He should take note of the views of the people so that they can say whether or not they want a certain thing. I am quite certain that the residents of the Umtata municipal location have never wanted title deeds. There is quite a lot of difficulty in connection with title deeds because when the Government wants to expropriate land it will do so whether or not people have title deeds . Would it not be better if the Council could put a certain area, such as Norwood, aside where people could go themselves to buy property? I will give the example of a town where people have title deeds , but it happened that the Government removed them . These people held title deeds to land but whether they liked it or not they were moved away. It is not a very proper thing to see people being removed against their will from any area. I witnessed this removal , but the Government was gracious enough to allow these people to move all their belongings and they were allowed to take even their beer with them . I support the amendment by the hon. Mr. Mnyani and I say it is not wise to force this thing down people's throats. Merely because somebody has been voted into the House, he decides he must place hardships in the way of the people. (Laughter) We have heard the fable of the meercat which lost its tail and then suggested to the other meercats that they should cut their tails , because it no longer had a tail with which to beat off flies , so it wanted the other meercats to be in the same position. (Laughter) At a meeting of the meercats one meercat exposed the first one, saying he was merely suggesting that because he no longer had a tail. The meeting broke up and no-one would agree to having his tail cut off. I was present on Saturday at a meeting in the location and I discovered that the people do not want title deeds . The people themselves demanded a vote so they allowed it and the majority were against title deeds . There were only a few people who were like the tailless meercat. It would be an unwise move for this Assembly to force people to have title deeds against their will. As matters were at this meeting, in my opinion it was not even necessary to take a vote at that meeting. The members
MR. SIHELE : Some years ago I met a certain Mr. Zibi who is now a chief in that place . This is what he told me and I wish the hon. members to note it. The question I asked him was why he moved and took all his belongings , leaving the Cape Colony to go right up-country. He told me that the land which he occupied then was his own land. He had bought it and was the There are many holder of the title to it. chiefs there and the chiefs who were supposed to be chiefs in Fingoland , he said , were merely headmen. In that country he said he was a chief because the land belonged to him and he had title to it. When a member moves that the people should have title to their land and someone moves an amendment to such a motion I cannot do otherwise than to accuse the mover of the amendment of being a man with no foresight. As far as this motion is concerned the mover of the motion has been requested by people who said they want it. In order that we should also suit the people who are in that position, there should be some who have title deeds and others who have no title deeds . On Saturday a meeting was convened and there were people who said they wanted title. Others said they did not, but they were overwhelmed by those who said they wanted title deeds . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. SIHELE : If there are people who want progress and others who do not want progress , how could it happen that those who want progress should be debarred from doing so by the ambitions of those who do not understand? MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : On a point of correction , Mr. Chairman, I don't know how the speaker can say that because he was not present at the meeting. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order. MR. NKOSIYANE : Those who wanted title deeds were only 100 and those who did not want them were over 700 .
MR. SIHELE : If he says so I will not dispute 272.
that, but I am speaking on behalf of those people who want title deeds . If that is the case why should arrangements not be made to suit both sides , so that both can have a living? What is to stop people who want title deeds from having them and those who do not want them can leave them alone? In one important debate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said something I could not understand , though I followed what he said, and today he seems to be departing from what he said. In his speech that day he said the reason people were not satisfied with the municipal administration was because the land did not belong to them. He was attempting to say that the land should not be used carelessly and that they should realise that the land belonged to them.
not want to enjoy the rights enjoyed by other people. If one has established his own home in a municipal location, why should he be told he cannot obtain a title deed so that his home in the location should be the heritage of his descendants ? I am surprised at the hon. member of the Opposition when he stated that if this House wanted to move a motion that title deeds should be acquired , why do they not consult first with the residents of the municipal location, not necessarily the residents of the authority. What I think was the intention of the House was to assist everyone in the requirements necessary for living. The reason I introduced this motion into the House was because of the complaints of the people in the location.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : He didn't say that. That was a different thing.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: May I put a question, In view of the fact that the Mr. Chairman? municipal location does not fall within the Transkei and ownership vests in the Provincial Administration, how can this Government which has no authority over that property issue title deeds ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. Today when provisions are MR. SIHELE : being made so that people whether in the administrative areas or in the municipal areas should acquire property.... (Interjections ) Do The you think the White people are fools ? White people will never be satisfied with a place where they cannot obtain title deeds. A White man would rather rent a place from a friend of his until such time as he can purchase a place of his own . I can see no reason why we should not be unanimous in this matter , because the only thing which can make people progress is to acquire title deeds . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN :
MR. MADUBELA : It was our intention that when this motion is passed in this House the Government will consult with the municipal authorities. When calculations have been made of the expenses incurred , just imagine people who have been paying rates for 50 years . How much would that amount to at R2 a month ?
MR. GUZANA :
MR. MADUBELA: One other thing which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition forgets is that those people who are in the municipal location have rooms which they rent to as many as fifteen people. (Interjections) Yes, that is
Order , please.
MR. SIHELE : Chief Zibi stated that even if his farm was just rock it was better to have title to it, therefore any person would rather have a small piece of land as long as he has title to that land . Money and wealth does not count at all. What counts is the man's mentality. A sensible person who finds that the land is not suitable will not ask for a title deed . He will rather rent a place . Why can't you see what a good thing this is ? Why must you not apply the right which you enjoy to your own people? If people make application for these urban lands they will apply for a place that has been surveyed and have title to it. The hon. member has been speaking about rondavels . Those are suitable for that particular person's pocket, but when the time comes when the rondavels are not allowed they will just be removed . All the things follow the time in which they occur , as well as the standard of living. I ask that we should all agree that this matter should be passed unanimously . We should not be asked to stop the progress of those who wish to progress . We must consider the applications of those people who desire this. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : mover to reply.
He will be dead by that time.
quite possible when a man has built up a large flat. The Municipality wants those people to pay an amount of 30c. to the Municipality. Now, calculate and see how much that money will amount to over a period of a year. If a person acquired a title deed , would he not be in better circumstances than he is at present under the Municipality? The people in the location are looked down upon because of what has been said by the Leader of the Opposition. He said they are very poor. He states they will not be able to pay for these title deeds because they are too poor . I think there are also people in Ncambedlana who are very poor and who have not got title deeds . I am sure the Municipality can eject those people who fail to pay. I will give an example in connection with the Municipality. I think the Municipality collects quite a lot of money from these people but the people are not satisfied because they know that whatever expense they incur is of no assistance to their children. Because of the increase in the population in the rural areas land has become scarce and therefore these people in the urban areas cannot be taken out because they can find no land. Even if people are very poor a person can go amongst the people in order to know the requirements of those people . The hon. the
I shall call upon the
MR. N.L. MADUBELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I still say even now that all the people who want title deeds in the municipal location should be given title deeds . There is not a single person in the Transkei who does
Leader of the Opposition does not tell us whether he went through the location telling the people they will not be able to meet these expenses. Even the Coloureds had a right to
273.
support this . ( Laughter)
live in Norwood , so why should our people not be given that opportunity to acquire rights . beg that this motion should be carried as it is written. Now I close my books and ask you to
Amendment put and negatived by 68 votes to 21 after a division as follows :-
AYES
NOES Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief G. Ndabankulu Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndyumo Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Hobden Martin Canca
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Babini Langa Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TOTAL : 21
TELLERS : 1. L.L. Mgudlwa 2. L.I. Cemane
Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Chief George M. Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau
274.
1
Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Robert Betram Msengana TOTAL : 68 TELLERS: 1. T.E. Ka - Tshunungwa 2. H. Mafukula Motion put and agreed to.
The debate was adjourned.
SUGGESTED
AMENDMENT TO IRRIGATION PROCLAMATION CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:- " That the Repubirrigation controlling Proclamation lican Schemes should be amended in the Transkei to suit the conditions and certain land regulations applicable in the area. "
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the suggested amendment to the proclamation controlling irrigation schemes was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I am sure I am expressing the view of this House that it is completely unaware of the object of this motion. We do not know
I am not going to say anything against these regulations because I know they were drawn up by sensible people. However, I am rather suspicious that they did not take consideration of certain conditions which prevail in the Transkei. When you peruse this proclamation you find that the real owners of the land are the magistrates and the Chief Native Affairs Commissioners. I do not believe that the magistrate
what the regulations are which apply over areas under an irrigation scheme , what complaints there are against those regulations , what suggestions there are for amendment to those regulations and which proclamation the hon. member refers to. I do humbly request the Chairman to give the mover an opportunity actually to put us in the picture, as it were , so that we may discuss the matter intelligently.
has a greater right to land than the chiefs . (Laughter) The Chief Native Affairs Commissioners are individuals belonging to history, as we have no such officers in the Transkei
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, being away from the area where the irrigation scheme is at Qamata , I tried to find out from the mover of the motion the very details that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is referring to . Apparently he might have presumed that he would move the motion and that we would understand , but I am also of the opinion that possibly we could have this matter postponed until such time as we ourselves could acquaint ourselves with the relevant proclamation, together with its provisions , and those which are sought to be amended . I move , Mr. Chairman, that we have this matter postponed .
at present. It would appear that the superintendent has been given greater authority than the chief. On close scrutiny of the proclamation you find that the superintendent has the right to take people from one area and place them in another area. What we do know is that it is the paramount chief who has the right to instruct people to move from one place to another . When you look further you will find that as far as these irrigation schemes are concerned the superintendent is not only confined to the scheme , but also has authority over the camps . You meet difficulties when there are cases to be heard , because the superintendent has authority over these administrative areas and you don't know what action to take . I speak as an expert because I am the only one affected by an irrigation scheme and what I say, I say from experience , (Laughter) Firstly, if a person is appointed as superintendent or ranger , the people break the fences and they are in a fix because they do not know what to do, and the Even in regard to police take no interest. the grazing areas the place is fenced in and the superintendent has authority over these . I would ask the Government to remove the White officials from the administrative locations and confine them to the arable allotments . No mention is made of the headman in those regulations except that when you hear mention made of a headman it is in connection with some dirty piece of work. Then you find later on there are certain sections in which it is stated that the headman will only hear certain cases. In fine , I say we should come to an agreement and the Cabinet should see that these regulations are made to suit the people.
MR. GUZANA:
I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF STOCK INTO TRANSKEI MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, before moving I wish to make a small amendment and that is to delete the word "easy" in the motion. I therefore move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of facilitating the introduction of cattle into the Transkei to replace the heavy stock losses due to the drought.'?? Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I believe that all the people in this House know the heavy stock losses suffered through the drought in these Territories . I think this motion should be agreed upon unanimously by both sides of the House as the loss of stock has affected everyone. As a man who has been through the locations in the Engcobo district I can say that some of these locations suffered severe loss of stock . It is no lie if I tell this House that one man who had 40 head of cattle regis-
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman, I second the motion moved by the hon. Chief Mtet'uvumile Matanzima . 275.
saved if there had been a doctor present. It often happens that people remove their sick relatives from Mjanyana because they are not attended to by the doctors there and they travel 26 miles to go to All Saints ' Hospital. It has happened that a person so removing their sick relative has no means and has to take the patient by sledge with oxen. The discomfort of this means of travel increases the illness . The sledge raises a great deal of dust. Even if it is a Scotch- cart it is still open and the wind affects the patient . The road is very long and has to go through Clarkebury to get to All Saints' Institution. It was for that reason that I asked for a bridge from the Department of Roads and Works , so that there would be a shorter road from Mjanyana to All Saints ' . I believe when the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works receives that application for a bridge, in view of this motion it will receive favourable consideration. I hope the hon. lady who is Minister of Roads and Works will consider it favourably. Mr. Chairman, I accordingly move this motion and request it should be adopted unanimously.
tered on his stock card has returned his card because today all his cattle have died , and a man who owned 500 sheep today has only 75 sheep . The lucky ones have perhaps 100. This has caused the people to urge us to bring this motion to the House . The Government should consider this one aspect that when one wishes to introduce stock, after the tribal authority has granted its approval , the Government tends to turn down the application. I request the Government to issue instructions to the magistrates to allow people to introduce this stock . Mr. Chairman, I am not going to be lengthy in this matter because probably when I am called upon to reply I may have more to say. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You won't get the chance to reply. You had better say everything now. (Laughter) MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman.
I second the motion ,
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I want to make it clear to the mover and the seconder and the House that this side has no objection to the proposal .
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : To say you have no You must say you objection is not enough. support the motion. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the importance of this motion to the lives of our people this side of the House supports it.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that this side of the House supports the motion. OPPOSITION MEMBERS:
Mr. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU : Chairman, does the hon. member want us to believe that people are carted on sledges all the way from Mjanyana to All Saints ' , a distance of 28 miles ? Fortunately, they must sleep on the way .
Hear , hear.
Motion put and carried unanimously. APPLICATION OF WAGE REGULATIONS TO TRANSKEI
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, I wish to satisfy the hon. paramount chief. From Mjanyana the straight road to All Saints ' is 28 miles . If a patient has been taken from the location to Mjanyana and is told the doctor will only attend in two months ' time , those patients are forced to go to All Saints ' Hospital and are placed on a sledge with a mattress. That has been done by people who have no money and cannot afford to hire a car to remove that patient from Mjanyana to All Saints ' . If that person is taken on horseback or Scotch-cart they are exposed to the wind and in the sledge there is the question of dust.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect I ask this House to allow me to withdraw this motion. Agreed to. Motion withdrawn . RESIDENT DOCTOR AT MJANYANA HOSPITAL MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of having a resident doctor at the Mjanyana Leper and TB Hospital instead of having a doctor once a month as it is now. "
Motion put and carried unanimously . FORTIFYING OF MEALIE-MEAL
Mr. Chairman, I move so that this hospital should have a resident doctor instead of having one who visits once a month. There are leprosy and tuberculosis patients at Mjanyana and those patients are attended by a doctor once a month and sometimes only once in two months . There are many people from the Ciskei and the Transkei who come to that hospital but they do not find a doctor there. It has happened that a patient admitted to that hospital is sometimes in bed for two full months before seeing a doctor . That indicates that there is a good chance for diseases as far as that is concerned . Sometimes a patient dies when he could have been
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move this motion: - "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking all mealiemeal milling firms to add nutritious ingredients to mealie-meal to be sold in the Transkei with a view to reducing diseases common among Africans in the Transkei . " I am bringing this motion because our staple food is mealies , and mealies are mainly ground for use . Different kinds of food are made from this such as beer, "amarewu" , bread , porridge 276.
sour and sweet, etc. Though they are all made from mealie-meal they all have different tastes . Our people use starchy foods only and therefore become easy victims to different diseases such as TB. As a result there is malnutrition because only one kind of food is used . The Government has made an attempt to introduce school-feeding schemes and progress has been made in that respect. Even the church organisations have made an attempt in this direction and also certain societies such as Kupugani . However , taking all such societies into account they are not in a position to reach everyone . If nutritious ingredients were added to all mealiemeal in the Transkei which is sold to the people , then a solution could be arrived at to distribute such valuable food to all regions of the Transkei , because we have a large number of illiterate people who do not attend school . The societies which I have mentioned cannot reach those people. If nutritious ingredients are added to mealiemeal they will have received some assistance . I believe if the Government of the Transkei adopts this suggestion and carries it out we will be able to assist a great number of Transkeian citizens . If you go to any doctor, not only in Umtata but right through the Transkei, they will tell you that the children who go to them suffer from these deficiency diseases . That is a sad
position is this - that the hon. member seeks that all mealie-meal to be sold in the Transkei should contain concoctions ....
state of affairs , for people to drift towards destruction. Even TB takes toll of the people in this respect because the people do not eat The doctors have repeatedly nutritious food . mentioned that among the Black people almost every home is affected by TB and one of the reasons is that these people are not eating nutritious foods. I do not think it is necessary for me to be lengthy, as I am talking on a subject which is well known to all the members of this House . Everyone who knows anything about our people should accept this. I accordingly move.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the mover of this motion and myself have agreed that the word " all " should be deleted .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Not "concoctions " that is the wrong word. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Now, may the hon. member remember that mealie-meal is not only used for making porridge, as he mentions . Some people use it for making Kaffir beer. Now, if you take that mealie-meal with all those concoctions and add yeast and other things you are surely going to have what we call sqadaveki . Mealie-meal, too, is used by all types of persons . Now there may be certain ingredients which may be nutritious but which You say cannot be taken by other people. "mealies to be sold in the Transkei " so that there will be people who will be closed out of using that type of mealie-meal . Surely, hon. members , you can see without my talking too much how ridiculous and ludicrous this motion I don't need to talk more than that , hon. is. members . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I second the amendment.
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman , from what I understood from the hon. the Minister of Justice , the word "all " should be deleted . I will agree to the deletion of the word and substitute "'some". THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , just be serious . What is "some " mealie-meal?
I second, Mr.
MR. JAFTA: If you say what I am now suggesting is wrong, then the motion should remain as it is.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , before I contribute a discussion on this motion I would like to move the following amendment: That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and substituted by the following: " it is not necessary to fortify mealie-meal sold in the Transkei as various maize products containing all the nutritious ingredients necessary to allay diseases common among Africans in the Transkei are readily available. "!
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, in truth maize is the staple food of the Transkei people . That being so, where mealie-meal is sold protein should be added , particularly during this period of drought when people cannot grow vegetables . These milling firms have crops such as soya beans which can be added without any difficulty . Soya beans are very rich in protein and can be used as milk and it can be comIt is popular pounded with other foodstuffs . with the children. (Interjections )
Mr. Chairman, this is the most ludicrous and ridiculous motion ever to come before this House. Clearly, I don't know how many courses in dietetics the hon. member for Qumbu has had to bring a motion of this nature before this House. We have ever so many products fortified with nutritious ingredients which are sold in the Transkei . There is maizena , for instance . OPPOSITION MEMBER:
THE CHAIRMAN :
Order , please.
CHIEF NDAMASE: Any sensible person could not mistake the mover of this motion in suggesting the incorporation of these ingredients into mealie-meal. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. Ministers help me, please . You are making too much noise .
How much is it?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Never mind how much it is or what quantity it is · it is Now , the there. There is Pro-Nutro also.
CHIEF NDAMASE: The reason why the mover introduced this motion is because he realised 277 .
are different kinds of food . You cannot therefore say that one kind of food should be altered to be similar to another. One day you will just ask us to turn mealies into meat. Others speak about proteins and vitamins and I don't know whether it is difficult to use the English language instead of using vitamins . There is no record whatsover in history that an application was made to alter a certain kind of food to be something different. People will regard us as fools. Iwill advise the mover of the motion to go home and plough his land and produce different kinds of food , and also to rear stock, because you get milk from cows and milk has a great deal of good ingredients . If he is in difficulties I can allot him a kraal site at Qamata. (Laughter) I have heard it said that he was an agriculturalist, so I can put him to the test. If we are going to achieve anything that is better I only hope that this hon. member will withdraw.
that all the African people use mealie-meal at some time during the day. (Interjections) We have just agreed to the introduction of cattle into the Transkei because it is realised there is going to be a shortage of meat. It is for that reason that the mover felt that hybrids could be introduced into these mealie-meal products because no-one can live only on starches . Even the mover of the amendment and his seconder are people who realise the importance of these foodstuffs . The mover has spoken about something he knows and I believe he also has some agricultural knowledge and must know something about these things . The mover has introduced this to people who should be sensible enough to realise that it does not imply that those people who have been prohibited from eating certain foodstuffs by doctors should therefore eat it against the doctor's instructions. (Interjections) The mover has explained to you that he did not refer to all maize . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: said "all".
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the reason why Jabulani is dangerous and kills people and causes them to suffer from TB is because it has yeast in it. This motion does not seek the addition of yeast to mealie-meal . We heard one speaker on the other side say that some people are going to make Kaffir beer from mealie-meal but that is outside the sphere of this motion. There is not one person who can say even if he has the power to use magic that the addition of soya bean or monkey-nut powder to mealie-meal will make beer that will boil. People who grind mealies prefer to grind their own mealies and if they have none they buy them and grind them on their own grindstone. The reason why this motion is looked down upon is because the ruling side has among its members people who think that the most important thing is to have a great number of suits and to come into this House and show off their suits . ( Laughter) A person who changes suits daily when coming into this House....
He did, he
CHIEF NDAMASE : He gave you an explanation about that. The Mealie Control Board is composed of sensible people who know it is not everyone who could have their mealie-meal mixed with soya beans . The hon. members on the other side should realise that there should be some mealie-meal which has these ingredients added to it. I have already explained that mealie-meal has been mentioned because it is the staple food of the people of the Transkei. I do not think anyone can raise objections to this motion. Some people would like this mealie-meal to be mixed with yeast, like Jabulani . What they are against is the preparation of food that will not make people become drunk. CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a very said state of affairs that we come to this House to discuss matters of great importance , and instead we are told about porridge . I should say the mover of this motion is so obsessed with TB because day in, day out he is always preaching to us about TB, and yet we are no doctors but members of the Legislative Assembly representing the State. This matter is laughable because even the chiefs are taking part in this discussion. I don't know whether the hon. chief who was discussing this motion has ever made any attempt to cure mealies at his home. I don't know what these people think the Government should do. It is likely that one day they will ask the Government to bury them. OPPOSITION MEMBER:
THE CHAIRMAN: the motion?
MR. MNYANI : We are interested in people being healthy and well fed. When the Government side is campaigning for votes they promise people they will get enough food, but when they come to this House they forget their promises. We have introduced this motion to the House and, although on several occasions we have criticized the XDC, we want it now to please us by adding these ingredients to the mealie-meal they buy. Even if it is not plain mealie-meal , but a mixture of foodstuffs, it should be something that is nutritious. When one adds pumpkin to mealie-meal it enriches the food and nourishes the body. We have read in the papers a speech made by a lady who came from overseas. It was explained that watermelon is a very good food , especially if other ingredients are added . I was very sorry that that particular lady did not convene a large meeting so that even we poor people who only live on porridge should be given the privilege of listening to her lectures . The only snag is that this meeting was held where the hon. Minister resides , a small place where people fear the intervention of the police and will not be given enough time before
Like Mvusi .
CHIEF MATANZIMA : Yes , Mvusi was buried by the Government because he was a Minister. When we find ourselves in such difficulties as to make requests and representations on behalf of the people at home we should not come here and talk nonsense . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN :
What has that to do with
Order, please.
CHIEF MATANZIMA : That hon. member wants us to think of porridge. Firstly, there 278.
sufficient to provide for the requirements of the people in the Transkei, hence we find mealiemeal manufactured in Klerksdorp available in the Transkei, and also that manufactured in Alwal North available in the Transkei ; also with other types manufactured in the Free State . Now, if we had to confine mealie-meal to one stereotyped kind - the mover says " all mealie ; meal sold in the Transkei" - that cannot be workable . If he wishes to have a fortified dish he must ask his wife to cook a nice dish of mealie-pap and then go to the kraal and get the liver from a nice heifer . I have seen a very nice dish made out of mealie-pap and liver in Johannesburg. Once you bring in a variety of ingredients into the mealie-meal then it ceases to retain the name of "mealie-meal" . It will be something else, not mealie-meal . It does not taste nice. I remember when I was in Pretoria, in the Central Prison , I tasted that mixture. (Laughter) We had something similar to what the mover has said before the House today. In the morning you get your dish of porridge but in this porridge you sometimes find a cabbage leaf. (Laughter) So I do not think we can have a mixture of these ingredients before selling it. Let us sell these things piecemeal to the people. In short, the amendment is very clear , that there are other eatables that are fortified with these ingredients and when you get them separately they are quite nice. If mealie-meal produced in the Transkei were to be mixed with these ingredients before it is sold, what about those people who have their beer made out of mealie-meal? If you add sugar to the beer you will find the consumer complaining it is not nice . This mixture of mealie-meal will lead to some people not getting the food they like because , as I said at the outset, we shall then have mealie-meal only for the Transkei and it will not be sent to other parts of the country and so it will go bad. Hon. members will agree with me that it is one of the fast- selling commodities . If you keep it for a long time in your store- room it will go bad, and if you go according to the suggestion of the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase that other products should be added , that mealiemeal will go bad very quickly. To conclude , it would have been a good thing if this motion were not brought here so that we must discuss porridge and things like that. I support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice. We cannot mix mealie-meal with anything , because it is good as it is . Have your mixture for your own table and in your own home and don't fortify all mealie -meal.
being told to disperse . These people are very fond of the police . ( Laughter) It is a well-known fact that there is no milk now because the cattle have died. Just imagine - the milk that is sold in this town comes from Kokstad , and it is contained in plastic bags . Some people live miles away from town and it would be a very good thing if something nutritious is added to mealie-meal . Social workers should also encourage people to grow Kaffir- corn, but the Kaffir-corn should not be sold for Jabulani, because they can afford to pay more for it than we, the consumers . The reason why the hon. Chief Mteto looks down on this issue is because he is still young and healthy. When I was young I felt energetic and healthy and it was strange to hear the elderly people complaining of pains in their body, but though I was so healthy I was attacked by TB. I pity anyone with TB and I hope other people never have the same experience that I had. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall allow one more speaker and then call upon the mover to reply. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a pity that we do not have a Health Department in the Transkei as yet, because this motion could have been better sent to those with authority in dietetics , and I am sure the ladies in the House and also in the gallery are surprised to find a galaxy of men discussing whether to mix this and that with mealie-meal and whether to have it fortified or not. A Department of Health, then, with qualified dieticians would actually decide what type of diet should be given to the people. When one has to look at the background of this whole motion by the mover , however , one finds that he wants a fortified mealie-meal and when one again looks back at the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice one again finds that there is absolutely no objection to a fortified meal. I stand up now in support of the amendment which is clear before us - that it is not necessary to fortify mealie-meal sold in the Transkei , as various maize products containing all nutritious ingredients necessary to allay diseases common amongst the Africans in the Transkei are readily available . Now, when a Sotho woman cooks mealie-meal and mixes it with gravy and so on, she is fortifying that food. When a Pondo woman mixes it with milk, she is fortifying it. The real question is where should this fortifying take place . We agree now that we should have a fortified dish . Well, I don't think it could be workable at this stage that is , to have a Bantustan mealie-meal mealie-meal only milled in the Transkei . That would make the Transkei a laughing-stock as far as the other part of the country is concerned, because in the Transkei we would have that type of mealie-meal which is only manufactured and sold in the Transkei. One of the speakers in favour of the amendment made it clear that some people would not like to have their mealiemeal mixed with other ingredients . They just want simple and unmixed mealie-meal . I say it would be unworkable because let us consider whether the Transkei at this stage is a selfsupporting country or not. The mealie-meal produced in the Transkei is definitely not -
THE CHAIRMAN : mover to reply.
I shall now call upon the
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA : to my motion just as it sticking , I am members stands. I was surprised to find that this motion which is being introduced ridiculed by the Government side , because its significance is It aims at relieving greater than you think. those people who are in difficulty and who are very poor . The people we are thinking of are the backward masses . When it is stated that there are other good foodstuffs such as maizena , that is only good for people such as those in
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CHIEF
this House , but the majority of the people depend entirely on mealie-meal . It was not necessary that I should be compelled to enumerate the correct ingredients . What was important to the hon. members of this House was the spirit of the motion. If we are agreed that there are people who cannot buy these expensive foodstuffs , why should we not make provision available? (Interjections)
MAJEKE :
THE MINISTER amending it?
OF
I will read
it first.
JUSTICE :
Are you
CHIEF MAJEKE : Yes , so the motion will read as follows : - "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
(a) raising the stipends of headmen;
MR. JAFTA: It is not for me to say what kind of substances should be added , it is the experts who will decide what kind of ingredients should be added. Even if I did mention meat in passing, they can decide whether that is the correct type of food to be added. If you have any knowledge of the people in the administrative areas you know they will eat what they are accustomed to eat, but they will not accept any innovation in that respect. If they are given fortified mealie-meal they will believe they are eating the usual mealie-meal. I made some remarks about TB until one hon. member said I was worrying myself too much about it . That is correct. The reason why I worry myself about TB is because of the fact that wherever the Black people gather there is TB, which is contagious . Many people suffer from TB and it is likely that that disease may be passed on to other people. If you call upon a medical practitioner to examine these people here you will find they will be equally divided. If you attend a concert where there is a large gathering of people you will find that is where TB is rife . In any large gathering TB is prevalent. Even at beer-drinks the same state of affairs exists . Emphasis is laid in my motion on the fact that some people have TB when they are not even aware of it and they do not care , but we should see to it that something is done to help them . I have already stated that I am an ordinary layman and I have introduced this motion. It is only the xperts who will know what kind of nutritious foodstuffs can be added to the mealie-meal. Again, I should draw the attention of hon. members of this House to the fact that all matters affecting the citizens can only be discussed in this House and nowhere else. Even if we discuss the subject of porridge, though we may be riding high horses , it is not so low that we cannot discuss it because assistance should be given to the people . I have already said that my motion is clear and I therefore move. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
(b) paying chiefs salaries in accordance with their educational standard , i.e. Up to St. VI; Up to J.C.; Up to Matric and beyond; and (c) paying sub-headmen as employees or administrators of the Government. " THE CHAIRMAN : this ?
Does the House agree to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, no, I stand to object to this amendment. This side of the House is prepared for Motion No. 3 and the hon. member seeks to incorporate in this motion matters which we have in another motion on the order paper. We shall not support the amendment at all. The motion must remain as it is and even if it is to be amended it must not be a motion which gives rise to new ideas . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: What is new?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is a question about chieftainship. This motion refers only to headmen and sub-headmen. MR. MADIKIZELA: That is why he is amending it. What about the decision of the Business Committee ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : amend it like that.
No, he cannot
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am surprised at the attitude of the hon. the Chief Minister to this amendment. At a Business Committee meeting attended by myself and others who are members, chaired by the hon. the Chief Minister, it was decided that the hon. Chief Majeke in moving his motion should amalgamate the two into one. That is what the hon. member is doing. The Business Committee asked me to convey that to the hon. member to do so when he is moving his motion and this direction is similar to other directions relating to similar motions , which directions have been conveyed to those respective members , so that the hon. member is speaking as having been directed by the Business Committee and seeks this amendment in that light.
Amendment put and adopted . Motion put and negatived . Motion as amended put and agreed to. PAYMENT OF HEADMEN AND SUB- HEADMEN CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with all due respect I will ask you to allow me to combine the two motions in my name - that is, No. 3 and No. 23 as has been suggested by the Business Committee.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, when we discussed this matter at the Business Committee meeting I was under the impression that the hon. member would withdraw the other motion....
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We know nothing about that. We will not allow it.
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MR. GUZANA :
amendment and submit it to the Business Committee and postpone the matter for today. Does the House agree ?
No, it was never suggested .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: ....and bring forward another motion. In any event, this side of the House is not prepared to discuss the motion pertaining to the stipends of chiefs . Unless
Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn till 11 a.m. tomorrow.
the hon. member requests that the motion be deferred for another day, we are opposing this motion.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 26th May, 1970 .
THE CHAIRMAN: The other members must please keep quiet and listen to the speakers .
TUESDAY, 26th MAY, 1970 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, the purpose of having a Business Committee is to have that committee look into motions and matters coming before the House and it was never suggested that any one of those two motions be withdrawn, but rather be amalgamated into one motion as they were dealing with matters which were similar - namely, the payment of stipends to employees of the Government.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Business Committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at adjournment this afternoon that is , during tea-time at 3.30 this afternoon.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I don't think we did say that.
-
MR. GUZANA: We did. NOTICES OF BILLS THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I don't think this House is interested in knowing what was and was not discussed at the Business Committee meeting. We have no report of that Business Committee before us. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition says this was said; the hon. the Chief Minister says that was said , and where do poor we find ourselves? It would have been better if we had the report of the Business Committee before us. I don't think we are in order to discuss what was said and what was not said in the Business Committee meeting.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Wednesday, the 27th day of May, 1970 , Ipropose to move the first reading of a bill to amend Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 , i.e. the statutory provision governing the conditions of service of officers and employees in the Transkeian Government Service. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I request that the Assembly give permission in terms of the proviso to Rule 98(b) of the Standing Rules for the first and second readings of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Bill to be proceeded with in only one official language , namely, English .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: As far as I am aware, I told the Business Committee I would oppose this motion in terms of the rule that we could not discuss financial matters here unless they have been referred to the Minister of Finance , and if we said that the chiefs should be paid in accordance with their qualifications and stop there, that will be all right; but the moment you mention the amount we cannot discuss it. (Interjections ) We never discussed the question of incorporating the two motions , No. 3 and 23. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . suggest that the hon. member....
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of Section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963 ) I now table a message in terms of Rule 128 (b) that the hon . the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly. Before moving the first reading of the bill I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Government Service Pensions Bill.
I would
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We oppose the amendment, Mr. Chairman. Put it to the vote . THE CHAIRMAN : You have not heard what I want to say . I suggest that the hon. Chief Majeke submit his amendment to the Business Committee in order to see what the form of it should be. I suggest you postpone it for today .
MISCONDUCT : MR. L.L. MGUDLWA THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave your indulgence to move as follows : -
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, let us have your ruling so that there will be no ambiguity.
"That the Chairman's ruling made on the 16th April , 1970 , (to wit, that notices of motions may be submitted until Monday , 20th April , 1970 ; thereafter no notices of motions will be accepted except with the leave of the house)
THE CHAIRMAN : I have already said that the hon. Chief Majeke should write out his 281.
be waived in order to allow the following motion to be tabled this morning and take precedence over all other motions appearing on the order paper and for this reason that the rules of this House be suspended :-
(b) I am not aware of any liquor transported in Ministerial cars . MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply, suppose a member of this Assembly does find the position as questioned here , to whom does he refer?
"That as a result of the abusive language and derogatory remarks made by the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa , directed against the Chief Minister while the latter was taking part in the debate on Motion No. 3 yesterday, this House resolves that the hon. member be named and suspended from the proceedings of this Assembly for the period of five sitting days and that he should withdraw from the precincts of the Assembly forthwith. "
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not going to reply to suppositions . QUESTION NO. 25 : Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) What circumstances led to the discontinuance of the appointment of Home Welfare Officers who were being trained at Mbuto?
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU: Isecond , Mr. Chairman. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, we are not acquainted with the circumstances of this Indeed , we are taken aback by the motion. motion and therefore we cannot give support to it, Mr. Chairman.
(b) Are you aware of the valuable services these officers in (a) rendered? (c) Could the Minister indicate whether he envisages employing their valuable services in the future or not?"
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , if we are in order the Chairman , after this has been seconded , ought to find out whether the House is agreed on the indulgence .
REPLY : (a ) As the part-time employment scheme for the so- called Home Welfare Officers (later termed Home Domonstrators ) trained at Mbuto was discontinued before the advent of self-government in the Transkei , I am not aware of the reasons which led to the scheme being abandoned .
THE CHAIRMAN : First of all I would like to know if the House is agreeable to the waiving of the ruling that I made on the 16th April , 1970.
Agreed to. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Division! THE CHAIRMAN : people asking for a
As there are only two division it falls away .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the House will notice that according to the wording of the motion it has to take precedence before other motions - that is , before Motion 3 on the order paper . I will then have to move the motion formally and speaki on it and in the meantime the House will go on according to the items on the order paper until we come to this.
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 24 : Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
(b) & (c) The question regarding the possible employment of suitable persons trained at Mbuto is one for the Department of Agriculture and Forestry as discussions between our respective departments clearly indicated that the training received by these women was mainly based on home economics i.e. the preparation of foods , diatetics , vegetable gardening, etc. QUESTION NO. 26 : Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"1. Since there are some districts in the Transkei which were rehabilitated some 25 years ago, will the honourable Minister name 4 or 5 administrative areas which have been rehabilitated to the satisfaction of the Department ? 2. What are the advantages on the 4 or 5 administrative areas over those that are half rehabilitated?"
"(a) Is it right for Ministerial cars or any other Government vehicle to be used by Ministers whilst assisting TNIP candidates in the election campaigns?
REPLY : 1. There are no administrative areas where the reclamation scheme has been carried out to the complete satisfaction of the Department, because the department is not responsible for all the aspects of a scheme . Some of the most important aspects depend upon the co-operation of the people such as strict and voluntary grazing control. No scheme will be completely satisfactory until such time that
(b) Who supplies the liquor which is usually carried in said motor vehicles for consumption by chiefs and headmen? "
REPLY: (a) Government cars are supposed and , as far as I know, are used for official purposes only. 282.
(e) How many people have died as a result of accidents listed above?"!
the residents themselves apply themselves energetically to the implementation of improved methods .
REPLY : (a) 818. The vehicles were taken over on 1st April , 1964 , and as statistics are available to 31st March , 1970 , my reply covers that period only.
2. In the most advanced areas , however, the advantages are very real , e.g. much less erosion takes place , the veld improves greatly and animal and crop production is increased.
(b) R132,711.72. QUESTION NO. 27 : Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
(c) (1 ) Although drivers hold valid licences , they are given a departmental test before they are allowed to drive departmental vehicles.
"How many classrooms were erected by parents and committees in 1968 with departmental assistance?"
(2) Road safety courses have been held . REPLY: During 1968 three classrooms were erected by committees with Government assistance . In addition the erection of two classrooms was commenced but not completed until 1969.
(3) As an incentive to drive safely , drivers are awarded with safe driving certificates if they qualify and cash bonusses have been given to drivers for safe driving.
QUESTION NO. 28: Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Roads and Works : "(a) How much rent is paid by the various Secretaries of the various Departments of the Transkei Government in respect of official residences they occupy?
(d) R140,665.00.
(e) 34. QUESTION NO. 30 : Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance: -
(b) How much is the highest rent paid by a top ranking Transkeian Civil Servant occupying a Government House situate in an Urban Area, falling under Category A?
"(a) Since the last session of this Assembly, how many resignations by Civil Servants have taken place to date?
(c) In respect of (b) , above , can such top ranking Transkeian Civil Servant be named please?"
(b) What were the various ranks of Transkeian officials who so resigned at the time of their resignation?
REPLY :
(c) What were the reasons for the resignations of such officers?
(a) The houses as rented by the various Secretaries belong to the South African Bantu Trust and thus belong to the Republican Government. So, whatever deductions are made accrue to the Republican Treasury.
(d ) Did the Chief Minister's office and/or the Public Service Commission find out where such officers who so resigned were going to for employment?
(b) R24.05. (c) Mr.
(e) Could not this be a brain drain on the part of the Transkeian Government Civil Service?
H. Mbuli , Magistrate , Flagstaff.
QUESTIONS NO. 29:
( f) Is it true that the X.D.C. and/or the private sector of Industries and Commerce are paying more attractive salaries to their employees than the Transkeian Government? If so , what foreseeable remedial measures are on hand?
Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"(a) From the advent of Self-government in the Transkei to date , how many Transkei Government motor vehicles were involved in road accidents ?
(g) Why or is it true that people from the Ciskei do acquire properties and/or businesses in the Transkei , whereas this would appear not to be reciprocated ?"
(b) To what amount does the accident damage of the vehicles involved in (a ) above amount?
REPLY: (a) 97 officers occupying prescribed posts on the establishment of the Government Service resigned since commencement of the last session ofthis Assembly. The office of the Public Service Commission does not keep record of resignations from non-prescribed posts and the ho-
(c) What remedy/remedies have been evolved to curb this state of affairs , if any or at all? (d) How much money has been raised in respect of auction sales of Government motor vehicles from 11th December, 1963 , to date?
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nourable member should direct his question in this respect to each of the six departments individually. :
: :
2 1 10 53 10 2 1 1
(b) What are the causes of the strike ? If any commission of inquiry has as yet been conducted, what are the results thereof?
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(b) Supervisor of Education (Male) Senior Clerk Clerk, Grade I Clerk, Grade II Records Clerk Welfare Officer (Female) Storekeeper, Grade II Typist (Male) Switchboard Operator (Female) Stock Inspector , Grade III Agricultural Officer, Grade III Forester, Grade II Forester, Grade III
QUESTION NO. 31: Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Education:"(a) Is your Department aware of the Shawbury Institution Form II-V pupils that were arrested and were at the Charge Office, Umtata on 20/5/70?
(c) What is the exact number of such pupils who have been arrested following the said strike ?
(c) Unknown. Officers cannot be compelled to furnish reasons for their resignations .
(d) What steps have been taken to remedy the situation and how many such strikes have occurred in Transkeian Institutions during the current year?"
:
REPLY : (a) Yes .
(d) No.
(e) No. Staff turnover is to a large extent limited to Junior grades and those leaving are generally easily replaced .
(b) The causes are not known. No Commission of Inquiry has been conducted .
(c) 216. (f) (i) Whilst government service salaries are readily ascertainable from the Estimates , the X.D.C. and the private sector do not publish details of their levels of remuneration . Any comparison which the questioner wishes to draw will , therefore , have to be based on pertinent information he is able to glean in the latter connection.
(d) No steps have as yet been taken and none will be taken until the causes are known. Only this strike at Showbury has occurred during the current year. QUESTION NO. 32 : Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Education :" Is the Minister aware of the incorrectness of his reply to question No. 7(a ) (ii) appearing on page 59 of the Proceedings , Tuesday, 28th April, 1970, as inquiries have revealed that these subjects are taught at Training Schools . "
(ii) In the clerical sector of the Government Service - from which the vast majority of resignations takes place the Public Service Commission currently has an extensive waiting list of prospective employees and I am, therefore, satisfied that government service salaries are competitive particularly following the general increases granted with effect from 1st April, 1970.
REPLY : I wish to stress that the reply to question No. 7(a)(ii ) was not incorrect. I repeat that no such course is offered in the Training Schools . It is assumed that the hon. member is referring to the subjects -
(iii) It must be realised , however, that "poaching" of trained government officials particularly those with specialised qualifications and/or experience · by outbidding the state in the matter of remuneration in cash and kind is a world-wide phenomenon and, whilst such movement of staff from the public to the private sectors does create localised short-term problems for the administration , the resultant raising of standards in the private sector represents a gain to the country as a whole and, provided it is kept within reasonable limits , is certainly no cause for concern or spiralling wage-race with the private sector.
(a) General Method (including Blackboard work, teaching aids and demonstration lessons) and
(b) School Organisation, Which · subjects are taught at Training Schools . I want to go further , Mr. Chairman, and speak to the hon. member very tenderly indeed . He apparently is thinking of the old subject which combined the two , but of late these are two different subjects in the Training Schools. Actually, in the wording of his first question he referred to a subject but when he drew the attention of the Minister of Education to it he referred to two subjects . The position is simply this - there is no such a subject. There are two subjects , as has been mentioned in the reply.
(g) The question should be directed to the honourable the Minister of the Interior.
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MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. the Minister of Education, in reply to a similar question appearing in the Hansard of 1966 the reply was that there were subjects and it gave a percentage of 62.5%. You will find that reply on page 133 of the Hansard. The question was identical to the question asked today. It inquired about "subjects ". I made investigations at the Training Schools and they told me that the same circumstances still exist. I saw that the reply was not given in a satisfactory manner. The Hansard gives this reply but the hon. Minister does not give that reply. He only says that there is no subject like that.
will agree that this is a clumination of long endurance and patience , and also accommodating attitude of this House, that this motion has not been brought before . Yesterday in this House, while the hon. the Chief Minister was speaking to Motion 3, the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa while sitting down on his seat, made the following remarks : "You are not a boss-boy here ; you are not chief prefect; you treat us as school -children; you are a liar. " Now, before going further with my discussion on this motion I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to the rules of this House under which I am putting a charge against the hon. member. Rule 33 (h) reads as follows : "During a sitting a member shall · while a member is speaking be silent and not make unseemly interruptions. " Again, Rule 34 : - "A member shall not interrupt the speech of another member except - (a) by rising to a point of order, when the member speaking shall resume his seat and the member interrupting shall simply direct attention to the point which he wishes to bring to notice and submit it to the Chairman or Deputy Chairman for decision; or (b) to put a relevant question to the speaker with the consent of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman. Rule 40:- "A member shall not make a personal charge or use offensive or unbecoming words in reference to any member of the Assembly. " Rule 47:- "The Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall order a member who (d) disregards , abuses or fails to observe the rules of the Assembly... " Now, with regard to Rule 33(h) the charge is that the hon. member while he is supposed, in terms of this rule , to be silent and not to make unseemly interruptions did, while sitting down, speak and use unseemly interruptions against the hon. the Chief Minister. With regard to Rule 34 it was open to the hon. member, if at all he felt that the hon. the Chief Minister was out of order, to have stood up and to point that out to the Chair who would make a decision or , if he felt he had a question to put to the hon. the Chief Minister, he should have stood up to put that question to the Chief Minister. With regard to Rule 40 I submit that the words " You are not a boss - boy or chief prefect " were a personal charge against the hon. the Chief Minister and I submit that the words "You are a liar" are offensive and unbecoming on the hon. the Chief Minister . When I started this debate I referred to the fact that this was a culminating point as far as the conduct of the hon. member is concerned . Most of us members in this House have had to suffer indignity and insults from the hon. member. Last week the same hon. member made similar remarks with regard to the hon. the Chief Minister , to such an extent that the hon. members , Mr. Msengana and Mr. Sihele approached the hon. the Paramount Chief of Tembuland to put this complaint to him as far as this hon. member is concerned. He was reprimanded by the Paramount Chief of Tembuland and it was a shock to find him repeating the same remarks yesterday. Also, when the hon. the Minister of Agriculture was giving his policy speech the hon. member said to him: "Don't laugh; what are you laughing at?" Recently there was a most terrible incident which would never have been expected from a member of this House when this hon. member
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, then I have to be quite clear and tell the hon. member that the position is as has been given by the Minister , and if he has had to get assistance from some quack educationist who thinks he can know better I cannot help him , but the reply is as has been given. MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman, I have referred to the Hansard of 1966 and I don't go about fishing for information.
THE CHAIRMAN : You are not asking a question now. You are arguing with the Minister . Please sit down. GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL FIRST READING
:
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the bill to provide for pensions or other financial benefits for persons in the service of the Government of the Transkei or their dependants and to provide for other incidental matters be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Isecond. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: The second reading will be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter . MISCONDUCT : MR. L.L. MGUDLWA THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move the following motion: -
" That as a result of the abusive language and derogatory remarks made by the hon. member for Engcobo , Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa , directed against the Chief Minister while the latter was taking part in the debate on Motion No. 3 yesterday , this House resolves that the hon. member be named and suspended from the proceedings of this Assembly for the period of five sitting days and that he should withdraw from the precincts of the Assembly forthwith . " Mr. Chairman, it is with painstaking and regret that a motion of this nature has had to be brought before this House , but the hon. members
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assaulted one of the high- ranking officials of the Transkei Government, who is a loaned official in the Government of the Transkei . He hit him with his open hand on the shoulder and asked him whether he understood that he was a servant. Not so long agothe same said hon. member used derogatory remarks of the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland. I feel , and I am sure the rest of the House will feel as I do , that such conduct on the part of the hon. member cannot be tolerated by this House and therefore I move as I have moved in terms of Rule 48. Thank your, Mr. Chairman. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to move an amendment to the motion by the hon. member for Cofimvaba : That the words after the word " That " in the motion should all be deleted and the following substituted :-
MR. MADIKIZELA: Will you allow a debate notwithstanding, Mr. Chairman?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It says "without amendment or debate" .
THE CHAIRMAN : House is a motion....
The question before the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , the question is for the Chairman to name the hon. member , not a question of putting the matter to a vote .
"the hon. member , Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa , conducted himself in a seemly manner during the debate on Motion No. 3 yesterday. "
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, as the hon. the Minister of Justice has stated, the Chairman has not as yet named the hon. member and whenever a motion has been brought before the House that motion has to be discussed. This has not been put as an unopposed motion. If this is a motion we expect a discussion to take place on it, particularly as you have not yet named the hon. member spoken about.
Mr. Chairman, we on this side of the House feel very strongly...
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I forthwith name the hon. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa.
Hon. member , May I THE CHAIRMAN: refer you to Rule 48( 2) : - "If a member has been named a motion that the member be sus-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move the suspension of the hon. member for five days .
pended from the service of this Assembly for a period of five sitting days shall be moved forthwith by a Minister , whereupon the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall put the question without amendment or debate. "
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU: I second. Motion put and carried by 63 votes to 21 after a division as follows :-
AYES
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Mr. G. Ndabankulu Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erusmus Mapassa Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile
NOES Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Babini Langa Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Godfrey Mafu Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani TOTAL : 21 TELLERS: 1. L.I. Cemane 2. W.C. Singata
4
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Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief George M. Matanzima Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Robert Betram Msengana TOTAL : 63
TELLERS : 1. R. Msengana 2. H. Mafukula
During Division
CHIEF NDAMASE : speak?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , if you look at Rule 68 it says a substantive motion should be signed by the mover of the motion and I think this is a substantive motion.
Mr. Chairman , may I
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I am not allowing any debate at this juncture . I will announce the results of the division now. Those in favour 63; those against 21. So the suspension will be carried and the hon. member shall be ordered to withdraw from the precincts of the Assembly for a period of five sitting days . -
THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is a division. We cannot have any discussions during division . We are voting now.
HAWKERS' LICENCES : UMTATA MUNICIPAL AREA
THE CHAIRMAN : I wish to refer the hon. the Chief Minister to Rule 97 (g) .
MR . B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I move this I would request the House to allow me to add the words "and pedlars " after the word "hawkers " .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , Rule 66 (b ) , paragraph (iv) says this shall be termed a substantive motion.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman . I object to that amendment on the grounds that the hon. members know what they seek when they put these notices of motion , and we take the trouble of reading up proclamations , laws and every other thing only to be surprised with amendments when we come to this House , referring to a different thing altogether.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall reply to that. First of all the hon. member , Chief G.M. Matanzima , signed this motion and Rule 48 is quite clear and unambiguous : "The Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall put the question without amendment or debate. " THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Further , Mr. Chairman, Rule 97 (g ) which enables the hon. member to speak refers to voting or procedure on voting. It says that whilst the Assembly is dividing members may speak sitting to a point of order arising out of or during division, not out of the motion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
I second .
THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree to leaving out this amendment?
Agreed to. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: leading us.
No, you are misMR. 287.
B.S.
MNYANI :
I therefore move :-
when canvassing for votes is being carried out. They say the Transkei Hotel is a mockery as far as they are concerned. They say the Transkei Hotel is just like the White hotels because they only go into those hotels to purchase liquor.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Umtata Town Council to allow people to have fresh produce hawkers ' licences . " Mr. Chairman, this is not going to cause me any worry because if this is allowed to go through, when they go to the Town Office and make applications they will meet officers who are not narrow-minded and who will give them pedlars ' licences . There was a remark made here to the effect that I am always talking about matters taking place in Umtata. I am pleased about that remark because it compliments me as a representative of the Umtata people, because I am interested in their wants . Last year this House agreed unanimously with the request that there should be market stalls to sell fresh produce at the taxi rank, and also that the municipal market should be reopened. To date nothing has materialized , though we were promised by the hon. the Minister ofthe Interior that before this Assembly had dispersed he would make a statement in that connection.
THE CHAIRMAN: Come to your motion, hon. member.
MR. MNYANI: They haven't enough to purchase food to eat, and as a result of their distress class discrimination has been created in the Transkei . We would that the conditions under which these people live should be noted by all the people . THE CHIEF MINISTER: May I put a question to the hon. member? Is the hon. member talking of people who have applied for licences and have been granted licences to sell this produce? MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I am speaking about people on whose behalf representations should be made to the Town Council so that when they make applications for licences these licences will be granted to them.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Do you expect it to be done overnight?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want to be informed about this motion, Mr. Chairman. Is the hon. member able to tell us the names of people who have applied for licences to sell vegetables and for hawkers ' licences , and who have been refused?
MR. MNYANI : To date the women for whom we made representations to sell this fresh produce are still being arrested . The hon. the Minister of the Interior says that putting up these stalls cannot be like the springing up of mushrooms , that they will take some time. He has reminded me to make this further request - that in the meantime , before these stalls have been erected , permission should be sought from the Town Council to allow the women to sell their fresh produce.
MR. MNYANI : The hon. the Chief Minister is trying to raise obstacles in this manner.
THE CHAIRMAN: It is a straightforward question. You must answer him. Just give the information he is asking for. He wants names.
CHIEF S. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the speaker whether he is encouraging what we see down at the ranks , where people are selling meat.
MR. MNYANI: I know them, Mr. Chairman, I even know of people who have paid fines. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I feel that the speaker is not adopting a correct attitude because there is a law which allows the people to apply for licences , so before we know what to do we must know if there are any people who have applied and have been refused. The production ofnames of people arrested is not going to help us as far as this is concerned.
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, it is a most disgraceful thing to see how these women are being ill-treated without anybody making representations on their behalf. These people have not stolen what they are selling, but are trying to make a living for themselves and their children. There is no-one who is against what these women are doing. Even the White trader has no objection. There is a Mr. Morgenthal who sells fresh produce and he says it is a disgrace for the Council to refuse to give these people licences to sell fresh produce. Mr. Heathcote similarly asked that these people should be able to obtain licences . The proprietor of the Lounge Tea Room says he regards these people as working for him without any payment, because they buy oranges , tomatoes and greens from him and sell them elsewhere and they act as unpaid agents . He says is surprised that these people should be regarded as criminals when all they are doing is to make a living for their children. Others say it is a painful sight to see these women put into police vans and yet it is said of those people that they have their homelands and they have their leaders. What they enjoy in this freedom is want, hunger and hardship and they have not realised satisfaction as has been said
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I told this House that Mr. Heathcote even went to the extent of making application on behalf of these people. In fact, there were about 20 of them and the applications he made were turned down. CHIEF P. JOZANA: On a point of order , if the hon. member knows these names why doesn't reply to the hon. the Chief Minister's question? (Interjections)
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the granting of hawkers ' licences by the Umtata Town Council was resumed.
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licence is subject to the production of a registration certificate in terms of the Business Registration Ordinance, 1953 (Ordinance No. 15 of 1953 ) . This certificate is issued by the local authority which in the case of an urban area is the Municipality of Umtata, or maybe a Village Management Board. Such a certificate is readily issued , provided the applicant is in a position to comply with the requirements ofthe Ordinance and such other trading and health bye-laws that may be applicable in the area concerned. Any person whose application for a certificate of registration has been refused has a right to appeal to the Administrator against the local authority's decision. It must also be pointed out that any person who trades as a hawker in the produce of the land which he owns or occupies does not require to be licensed as a hawker , although he must produce or obtain permission (not a licence , but permission) from the local authority to dispose of his produce within the area of the jurisdiction of the local authority. It is very strange that most of the hon. members seem to think that representation of the people is to come here and talk a lot of matter on which they can produce no substantiation, and also bring about motions which may be impracticable in nature. Here is a motion seeking to ask the Government to request the Municipality of Umtata to grant hawkers ' licences to people who want to trade as hawkers in Umtata . There is provision already provided for the granting of licences to applicants . This hon. member, the mover ofthe motion, who seems to be such a boaster of being a representative of the people , cannot point out to this House that when he got the names of So-and-so and So-and- so, who were refused licences to trade, he approached such-and- such an authority, he did such-and-such a thing. The duty of a representative of the people is not only to come to this House when he knows that for every sitting he is going to get money. The duty of a representative of the people is that when he finds there is something of vital importance to the people he takes the matter up as an MP and a representative of the people . This hon. member tells this House that in all other municipalities - East London and Queenstown and so forth - these licences are readily given but it is only Umtata where they are not readily given. He is a representative of the people in Umtata and , for that matter, we were around when voting was carried on in 1968 and he got the greatest number of votes from the people of He should have seen to it.... the location.
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I left I was told I should mention names of applicants for these licences . This is not the first motion, nor is it the last, in which application has been made on behalf of the people. The hon. members across the floor should just listen to what I tell them and if they believe they will be right to do so, but if they do not believe they may term me a liar as they usually do. It is quite plain that the people who sell their produce in the streets would not continue to do so under such conditions , knowing that they should be provided with licences . It is the town which refuses to grant licences. In East London they used to have this privilege , and have only just been deprived of it. In Queenstown they still have that privilege . We see something which is deplorable when people are being arrested and the people who should take the initiative in this regard are the members of the Government. Even now the hon. the Chief Minister has never said a word in this connection. What you usually find is irrelevant statements made when people are told not to hold beauty contests in the hall. We are not very interested in beautiful women. (Laughter) We are only interested in the life of those people who have difficultues in making a living.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , are you implying that the Ministers are interested in beautiful women? MR. MNYANI : I do not imply that, Mr. Chairman. In fine, Mr. Chairman, when we enjoy such a lot of money, because it is stated that we are representatives of the people , when even the Cabinet Ministers have had their salaries increased . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think the Chair should draw the hon. member's attention to the rules about interrupting other speakers while sitting down. MR. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, though the hon. Minister came to my assistance , he interrupted my speech. I was still saying that when we are all enjoying the money which we have been paid as an increase, when even the hon. the Chief Minister has got an allowance of R1,000 similar to that granted to Nkrumah, and when we think of people going to bed tonight without a morsel of food, yet it is said that we represent the people.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I wish to question the hon. Minister as to how he came to know I had the greatest number of votes in the location. Is voting not carried out secretly? Was he not told by the officers responsible ?
MR. N. JAFTA: I second the motion . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I speak to this motion I would like to move the following amendment : That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : -
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Most unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, our people are not yet educated with regard to the secrecy of voting. We were here when the people came along shouting "Mnyani , Raziya ; Mnyani , Raziya". That is how we know you got the greatest number of votes , and you cannot deny that, because you were around too and heard the people shouting. Now, Mr. Chairman , I wish to point out to the hon. member that so long as he sits with the
"adequate legal provisions exist whereby any citizen of the Transkei may obtain a hawker's licence to trade in fresh produce within the Umtata Town Council's area of jurisdiction. " Hon. members , the position is that in terms of the Licences Act, 1962 , the issue of a haker's 289.
complaints of the people and waits a whole year before he can come and speak about them in parliament, so less work will he ever do for the people of Umtata . The trouble with the hon. member and others like him is that they think so little of the Cabinet Ministers of the Government that they even detest going to their offices to speak to them about the needs of the people . This motion is purely an administrative matter on which the hon. member should have approached the hon. the Minister of the Interior and asked for assistance with regard to approaching the Municipality of Umtata in regard to the refusing of these licences . To say that the Chief Minister of the Transkei has said nothing about this after he himself cannot say he ever approached him in regard to this matter is puerile thinking in the highest degree. During his discussion of the motion, an easy and simple question was . posed to him to tell this House about the names of the persons who were refused licences . I sympathise with the people of Umtata who are being represented by the hon. member , because to my mind they may not even have been apprized of the provisions of the law that entitles them to apply for licences and how they should go about it. (Interjections ) He is not doing his work that is what I am trying to show him. All he does is to criticize the Government and everybody else on the side of the Government. Why was it difficult for him ? In fact, he has got in his possession the names of the persons who were convicted. What difficulty was there for him to be in possession of the names of people who actually applied for licences and were refused? The hon. the Minister of the Interior is a responsible person - he cannot approach the Municipality of Umtata and say: I hear that people have been refused licences · instead of bringing before the Municipality of Umtata concrete examples of people who were refused those licences . Before I sit down, hon. members , my advice is that we must assist one another as representatives of the people. We are not against this motion, but the amendment is intended to point out to the hon. member that there is adequate legal provision for these people to apply . All that need to be done is to tell these people about how to go about making application . It is quite likely that these people merely make application for hawkers ' licences without first applying to have a registration certificate under the Business Act, and the hon. member cannot say he ever advised these people about how to go about making their applications . I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
Municipality, the Transkei Government must point out that these people applied and were refused. Do you know the names of any specific persons who applied for licences and were refused and, if so , who were they? MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , the mover ofthe motion explained that he had the names of those people who had submitted applications and their applications were turned down. I think he will at a later stage provide you with a list of those names. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: He never said So.
MR . JAFTA: I heard the explanation of the hon. the Minister of Justice and came to the conclusion that there was some misunderstanding. Probably the mover did not investigate these regulations satisfactorily, but there is one point which I understand - that these people who were selling their produce were not aware of the fact that the produce from their own lands could be sold without a licence . It is quite clear that there is a need for people to be given assistance to sell and it is quite clear that the people have not sufficient knowledge of the regulations . I hope that the motion will be accepted. There is nothing much to be said about this motion because it is self-explanatory. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand in support of the motion moved by the hon. member for Umtata. The hon. member is making a request on behalf of those people who buy for the purpose of selling. It is a request that the Government should provide means to have these people protected , because they sell in order to earn a living. The reason why they sell this produce is because of hunger, and they make this request so that they will no longer suffer hunger. Even if we do not go to any length in discussing this , it is a very good motion. All those who are suffering hardships should be given assistance . They should also take an example from the Indians in Johannesburg, who go about selling. They have these licences and sometimes get a licence just to sell bananas and they go about calling "Penny a banana ". We should see to things of this nature . That is why we are in this House . We appeal to you hon. members of this House, particularly to those in authority in the House , to see to it that the necessary provisions are made on behalf of these people to acquire these licences and that they should be told how to procure those licences. It is a sad sight to see these people going up and down the street selling and being arrested , and at the same time not knowing where to stay. When they were driven out of a certain place where they used to dispose of their produce by selling, we thought some other arrangement would be made for them because it is a known fact that they are starving and people who starve require food . We are making the request that the Government should They see to the interests of those people. should be given the licences which they require so that they are not troubled by the police . We shall be grateful to the Government if the Govern-
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I second accordingly, Mr. Chairman . MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. ' members , I stand in support of the motion as it stands , which seeks to request the Transkei Government to consult the municipal authorities so that the people should be granted hawkers ' licences . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? May I know from the hon. member as to whether he knows any people who were refused and , if so, who were they? If the Transkei Government has to approach the 290.
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ment will favourably consider this request. The people should be sympathized with and given assistance. Whilst we are talking here and being happy, they are being arrested. Can the Government not come to the assistance of these people in this difficulty? I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
to get your licences . That authority will give you a letter to the Native Commissioner who will issue you with such a licence . The normal procedure followed with applicants for a trader's licence is to go first to the headman and then the application is referred to the regional authority. You think you will bypass all the requirements and think the Government will help you .
MR. S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very disappointed that you have not taken the advice put before you. The explanations made by the hon. the Minister of Justice is quite clear. You should know that the Provincial Administration has been given power to make its bye-laws and our Government therefore may not interfere with the bye-laws with which the Provincial Administration has been empowered . Only yesterday the hon. member for Umtata said he wanted market stalls to be erected in this area. If and when those stalls are established , the licences will be issued by the Municipality. All they will be required to do is to pay rent. Before these people come to the Government for assistance they should first consult the municipal authorities. It would appear as if the hon. member for Umtata feels that the proper way is to come to the Government and ignore the authorities , whereas , in fact , even with the chiefs , if they require licences they have to comply with the requirements rather than run straight to the Government. I think all the remarks which have been made here are not in favour of your motion (Interjections) because even if our Government is sympathetic and wishes to give licences , they may not do so without the consent of the authorities .
MR. C.M. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very pleased to stand up after such an elderly man has spoken. I thought he was going to say something of great importance . This request is very important and we should have agreed unanimously on it. I think the hon. ladies who are on that side .... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Port St. John's , if I am not mistaken because he does not usually speak , says we ought to be unanimous on this motion. May I ask whether he heard that we do not agree with the motion? MR. NDAMASE : I thank you, Mr. Chairman, but I was going to come to this point when I was going to say that the hon. ladies should come to our side when we call for a division. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, you must not address them in that manner , because they are hon. members in this House . MR. NDAMASE: I was coming to this : Once when there was a serious accident when the lands caved in , they all prayed hard that the rock would not fall in. This motion does not only affect Umtata but also Port St. John's .
CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: A question, please , Mr. Chairman. I would like to know whether he does not want his own people to sell vegetables .
MR. E. DYARVANE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I only wish to draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that Port St. John's is not mentioned in the motion. The motion does not mention any other town but Umtata . There is not a word about Port St. John's
MR. MOSHESH : I am in favour in regard to the selling of these vegetables , but the requirements must be complied with. If your kraal is situated in the administrative area of a headman, you may not take all your cases direct to the paramount chief or the chief without It having first gone through your headman. would appear as if that is the practice of that side of the House , that people should just ignore their headman and go direct to their chief. (Interjections) The people in the municipal location fall under the jurisdiction of an advisory board and the location authorities , and their representations are made to the municipal authorities through those bodies . How many people have been refused licences by the Municipality before you appealed to this House ? (Interjections)
MR. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I was just saying this matter gives trouble also in Port St. John's . When you think that these people who sell their produce do so in order to give education to their young children, why should we go on arguing about a motion which affects all our people? I think the hon. the Minister of Justice will see to it that these people are not arrested for selling their produce . Even if sometimes during the day you are unsympathetic , towards sundown you should be sympathetic . In fact, we are greatly concerned about this matter and we appeal to you to let this motion pass so that these people are free to sell their produce .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. Please follow the proper MR. MOSHESH : procedure and do not regard this House as a football ground. I am surprised and disappointed when I see the chiefs on your side supporting you in this matter . They are encouraging you to disobey the law and to disregard the lawful channels . We are not all opposed to your request as such , but we want you to follow the proper procedure . Consult the Municipality who is your chief. They will guide you as to how
CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to add to the explanation already given by the hon. the Minister of Justice. He mentioned that there is really no opposition to the motion as such . We will be placing ourselves in difficulty if we bypass the law in doing anything, because we might find ourselves encouraging people who want to break the law, and even those who want to sell this produce have to do things in accordance with the legal
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requirements . Some of these things they sell may be rotten or infested with flies . They should be sold in places where there will be less possibility of spreading disease . We appreciate their difficulties and their desire to take short cuts , but we cannot allow people to take the law into their own hands because that might give rise to a great deal of trouble , and these people may find themselves fighting against one another . This Provincial Administration law is not preventing anyone from making a living, but where there are human beings there must be laws. I will not be lengthy because those who were here for the debate have heard all the explanations . To be lengthy and to talk nonsense would be useless .
but when you want a permit for the introduction of stock through the ranger , you are not given permission though you do not own a beast.
I shall now call upon the
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I asked you if I could give an example to explain what I am saying, and I was merely concerned with telling you that the Council refuses , whether by byelaw or any other regulation. I had already stated that I am an ordinary layman, a garden-boy , Mr. Chairman, let me and not an attorney. mention Mr. Heathcote , who applied to the Council for people to get these licences . It was said that the people whom he represented should first of all be examined by a medical practitioner. They were then told to have a store- room in which to keep their produce and not to take it to the municipal location. Mr. Heathcote volunteered to build a store for them at his place which could be locked. The Council refused, stating that his intention was that these people should buy produce from him.
THE CHAIRMAN : mover to reply.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I have already stated that this is a very important matter and we are very interested in it, and I thought the hon. member would give examples on this matter and not on the question of cattle which must be governed by municipal bye-laws which are very different from provincial ordinances and proclamations . The hon. member must assist us by giving us examples , and not go astray and talk about cattle . This matter is as important to us , as it is to him .
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to touch upon what has been stated. It was said that we of the Opposition do not like to go to the Cabinet Ministers ' offices . Mr. Chairman, we do go to their offices but let me speak for myself. I personally go to the Ministers ' offices , not because I respect that particular Minister . The Minister I respect, I respect because of his demeanour . I even go to the office of the hon. Minister I do not respect because in going I respect the people whom I represent. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A question, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I would like to know from the hon. member as to whether he ever went to the hon. the Minister of the Interior about this very matter.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A question, Mr. Chairman. Can the hon. member give us the names of the people who applied personally, not through Mr. Heathcote, because the Town Council might have suspected that Mr. Heathcote might have wanted to make these people his own agents ? We want to know the people who applied personally .
MR. MNYANI : If I was well conversant with the Xhosa language I would say this hon. Minister has forestalled a monkey who was going to get a drink of water , because I have already stated that I go to the Ministers ' offices . I believe I went to the office of the hon. the Minister of the Interior two or three times. It was the present Minister of Education who was then Minister of the Interior . I went to find out about certain motions which were passed by this House in connection with the sale of vegetables . I used to get a satisfactory reply. In his amendment the hon. the Minister of Justice states that there are provisions for the acquisition of such licences and he went as far as to explain the regulations . Though I am an ordinary layman and not an attorney, I know the regulations existing in the Municipality. I am now 50 years of age and I was born in this town and this is where I grew up. He quoted the law which he says was promulgated by the Provincial Council . I do know that every month the Town Council has meetings to discuss matters affecting this town under the regulations made by the Provincial Council and I understand that though the Provincial Council may, according to the regulations , agree to grant certain privileges , the Town Council can refuse the issue of licences. To substantiate what I am saying, if you will permit me to do so, I will give an example. The Town Council of Umtata has recently amended a certain regulation in connection with cattle. According to that regulation a resident might have a cow,
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I refuse to give the names of the applicants . The hon. Minister has already stated that I can go to the Ministers ' offices . I can therefore go to the office of the hon. the Minister ofthe Interior. Probably because he is also a chief he wants me first to go through him . (Laughter) Yet I went to him twice in connection with the people who have been arrested . I am going to do what he has asked me to do because I sympathize with these people who are being arrested . I have already stated that the application was refused . Mr. Chairman, I am not sure of what I am going to state now. These women who sell their vegetables told me that sometime they went to consult the hon. the Minister of the Interior. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: If you are not sure of it, don't say so. Are you quite sure of it? MR . MNYANI : The hon . Minister asks me if I am quite sure , but from the outset I said I was not sure. If the hon. Minister says they did not go to his office , I cannot dispute it, but those women told me he sympathized with them when they went to see him. The hon. the Minister 292 .
of Justice says that if the Town Council therefore does not grant such licences they have a right to appeal . Just imagine a person who has not even bread to feed her own children - how will she find the money to pay the costs of appeal? The hon. the Minister of Justice spoke about appealing even in connection with some other motion. He will one day meet an appeal Iwhich he will not like · an appeal that will expose everything that occurs here . Mr. Chairman, it has been stated that I sit down and do nothing but wait for the session in order to come and speak in this House. I am not going to inform him when I am doing something for the people. In fact, I walk on my own feet through the location and I do not use a black car to get to these places. Mr. Chairman , even before I was a member of this House I went with some of the women to see the Mayor to apply for such permits. I even appealed to the BIC when they were stationed here, that they should put up a building for these people to rent. As far as I could , I did everything in my power to assist them. Lastly, Mr. Chairman, there is a certain condition which persuaded me not to write down the names of these women, because if I did so it would leave them with high hopes of something being achieved . Someone caused a great deal of damage in that that person whom I will not mention , although I could mention him if I wanted, collected R2 from a number of people and told them he was going to apply for these licences. He subsequently came back to the people and demanded R2 per capita in order that each of these people should go for a medical examination. That person has since disappeared to Durban where he is interested in horseracing. Mr. Chairman , I am adamant and I move this motion accordingly. It is only the Almighty who can work on each individual . If someone has no god he can use the powers that may be bestowed in somebody's heart.
Mr. Chairman, from the outset I would say that we on this side and the electorate were very sorry at the loss of the Secretary for Roads and Works , an honourable gentleman who was determined from the beginning to see to the progress of the Transkei. Now he has left the work he was doing in the hands of other officers who should see to it that that work has been achieved. This motion seeks to expedite that work so that the officers will see to it that the work is carried out as it would have been under the late Mr. Grabe. It has been said very often in this House that the members of the Opposition do not go to the offices of the Ministers . I dispute that statement because last year , and only last year , members of the Opposition went to the office of the Roads and Works Department in connection with this very question of roads. The names and addresses of those members who approached this office were taken and entered and they were told they would be written to. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think the motion before this House is for the transfer of roads and the appointment of an inspection team to investigate the condition of roads and bridges and what not. We are not discussing whether anyone went to the Department of Roads and Works . The hon. member is just wasting our time . THE CHAIRMAN : suppose.
It is an introduction, I
MR. MAJIJA : They always want to know who went to their offices and I will give them The following the names of this delegation. members went :Mr. Mnyila , Mr. Zibi , Mr. We Jafta, Mr. Nkosiyane and the speaker. gave them the names of roads which are in a very bad state and bridges which are too low. Since then we have expected to receive a reply and we have not received anything. The roads are in very bad condition over there and for that reason we say there should be a team of inspectors to inspect the roads . It should not be just one officer to do so . We add to that that all the roads in the Transkei should be taken over by the Department. We realise and know that the Government can get money from the Republican Government on request. They should entertain no fears in making requests for funds from the Republican Government, because the late Dr. Verwoerd promised them he would make funds available to them . All that is re-
Amendment put and adopted .
Motion put and negatived. Motion as amended put and carried . BOOK FEES AND DISTRIBUTION OF SCHOOL BOOKS
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the belief that the question of book fees and distribution of books was adequately discussed when we discussed the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Education , I beg leave of the House to withdraw the motion to give more time for other motions .
quired of this Government is to make a request and the money will be forwarded . Some of the roads become very narrow indeed , and there are no signposts . We will repeat this same thing until it sinks into the heads ofthe hon. Ministers , so that they will realise this is being said by the people . On the national road between Engcobo and Umtata there is a road which branches off the main road and goes through Mnyolo to Ugie . It climbs a steep cliff at Mnyolo and that road is extremely bad and narrow. This road runs just above some krantzes and at this spot the road is too close to the side and is dangerous to motorists. Buses use that road too . When you get to the Bashee River
Agreed to. INSPECTION OF ROADS AND BRIDGES MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :- "That the Department of Roads and Works should consider the advisability of appointing an inspection team to investigate the condition of roads and bridges in the Transkei , and further the said department should consider legislation to declare all roads in the Transkei government roads. " 293.
reason we have introduced this motion so that these roads are inspected , after which they are all taken over by the Government as the Government will be in a position to acquire funds in that regard so that these roads will be brought up to the standard of the roads that we find in the Ciskei where there are White farmers. I believe the Government should have all these roads gravelled , and not just graded and left incompelete so that when the rains come the earth is washed away. I therefore move accordingly.
on that same road the bridge is low down and when the river is in flood the bridge is impassable. Similar conditions are found with the road from Coghlan to Qokolweni . There is also a road between Engcobo and Igoso and the bridge on that road is low down as well , with a sharp bend as you approach it. At Mnyolo stream there is a causeway made of contrete low over the river near Mr. Appel's store . THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member . The hon. member , Chief H. M. Sigidi , must march outside .
CHIEF H.Z. ZULU: I second , Mr. Chairman. MR . MAJIJA: We gave these details to the officers and they said these matters would be considered.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not going to move an amendment but I think I am going to offer an explanation. As far as I can see, the mover of the motion had not paid keen attention to my reply during my Vote. I am
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B.M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, this motion speaks about the whole of the Transkei , but the hon. member is only speaking about one part of the Transkei .
confused , because I would say that if whatever is said in the House was not interpreted into Xhosa I would say the English was above his head. On the other hand, I believe he understands English, so I am surprised. I would the hon. member before coming up with his motion would have studied and given deep thought to some of the things I mentioned in my reply. To reply to him effectively I will have to give him a detailed study of the organisation of the department, and perhaps he will not only sympathize but he will also become aware as to how impracticable his motion is at the present moment. Here I go with my detailed lesson: The staff organisation of my department already makes provision for inspections of the conditions of roads and bridges in the Transkei , and , to refer to my reply, I said the department would see to it that now there is stricter supervision.
MR . MAJIJA : I have spoken about places which I personally know and even the members who accompanied me gave this information. We don't want to exchange words with the paramount chiefs in this House because that causes misunderstanding. Secondly, along the road there are piles of gravel at intervals .
THE CHAIRMAN : The hon. Mr. Guzana canvassed that point thoroughly in the Vote on this department. I do not think you need refer to it again. Bring in your own ideas. MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman , seeing I have brought a motion before the House I should have expected to be able to mention arguments in connection with that motion and not be told that someone else has spoken about this , but I bow to your ruling. Where there is a deviation from one road to somewhere else the labourers who use the graders do not put the road in good order so that all the vehicles can get to the deviation without difficulty. I once brought the same matter to the notice of the Department and the road I had complained about was attended to. There is a deviation from the main road which leads to Ugie on the Mnyolo road , and where the deviation is it is not good enough for transport. I also meet difficulties when I want to use that road going home. When they put a drain to lead water on the road they make it so that the water flows into arable allotments .
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Has there not been supervision in the past? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I will not answer that, but you know we always remedy mistakes where we find we are falling short. In the first place the establishment provides for one senior road foreman and two road foremen in each region; and , secondly, the head office supervisory and control staff consists of one chief foreman and three principal road foremen who are expected to carry out inspections in the northern , southern and central areas of the Transkei. At present the head office post of chief foreman and two principal roads foremen are vacant. My department is trying to do everything in its power to fill those posts . When it comes to the motion of the hon. member, he wants road inspectors and if we have to get those road inspectors they would have to have the same qualifications as the chief roads foreman and the two principal roads foremen who, at the moment, it is difficult to find . A week ago I outlined the difficulties of the department in having those posts filled and I do not see any point in creating new posts when there are already vacant posts which it is difficult to fill. Hence I say that aspect of the motion is impracticable . Coming to the second part of the hon. member's motion I am not clear as to what he means by "all roads " for , according
MR. E. DYARVANE : May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? I wish to ask the hon. member when he proposes to get into the motion . The motion speaks of an inspection team and we want " to know what it is going to do whether it is going to grade the roads or what. We want to know what the team is going to do. MR. MAJIJA: I don't know when we speak in this House what other members of the House do, because I stated at the start that this inspection team will inspect the roads and report conditions to the department. The whole aim is that the roads should be attended to and be put right, as well as the bridges. For this
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requiring attention and twice or thrice monthly to attend to TB patients .
to the Transkei Road Act, even a track is a road. For his information , additional legislation is not required to be made by the Assembly for my department to do this because it is there already. It is estimated that in addition to the proclaimed government roads there are some 5,000 miles of minor roads and I think it would be stupid of us , when faced with our government roads which need to be put in good condition, to take on other roads and to try to put them in good condition when we are short- staffed . Where is the wisdom there? If I were to compare the condition with the Provincial Administration · for instance , in connection with those roads with which the Provincial Administration cannot cope they are dealt with by the divisional council , and it is the same with us. We deal with government roads, and those roads with which we cannot cope we give to the tribal authorities . That aspect of the motion, too , is impracticable. All I can say is that there are some roads which might not have been declared when some of the TTA roads were declared which, according to some of the applications which the department has received, serve the various communities in which they run. In such a case, then, the department is prepared to consider applications in connection with those roads which were not included in the schedule of roads which were later proclaimed as government roads. I think the explanation given will suffice to show the mover of the motion that at this stage this motion of his is impracticable .
(c) The District Surgeon at Engcobo is always available to deal with possible emergencies in the interim periods. (d) There is a fully qualified nursing staff in full-time attendance at the institution. (e) As recently as December, 1969, many leprosy patients who could benefit from reconstructive surgery and rehabilitative services were moved to the only specialist institution where such services exist. (f) The Republican Department of Health has for some time now done everything in its power to secure the services of a resident doctor at Mjanyana and it will continue to do so until a suitable applicant is appointed. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. R.B. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts , 1970 . TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Government service Amendment Bill , 1970 , and I move that it be read a first time .
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 27th May, 1970.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR :
I second.
WEDNESDAY, 27th MAY, 1970
Agreed to. Prayers were read. The bill was read a first time . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The second reading of the bill will be on Thursday, the 28th day of May, 1970 , or so soon thereafter .
ANNOUNCEMENTS THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , prominence was given in yesterday's Daily Dispatch to a statement made in this Assembly by a member of the Opposition who initiated a motion calling upon the Government to consider the advisability of having a resident doctor at the Mjanyana Leper and TB Hospital. The Regional Director of of State Health in East London has approached me to correct the erroneous impression created by the said statement and I deem it a matter of public interest to make known the facts furnished by the said director. These facts are as follows :-
IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TAXATION BILL : SECOND READING THE CHIEF MINISTER: Honourable Members :
Mr. Chairman and
1. When making my proposals to the Committee of Ways and Means last week I appealed to members to consider the question of a property tax without bringing in personal considerations . I requested that the interests of the Transkei and its inhabitants should be their first and only consideration. I am grateful to say that my appeal did not go unheeded and I wish to express my appreciation of the very responsible attitude this Assembly had adopted with regard to this proposal for a property tax to replace the Transkeian Territories Road Tax.
(a) There is no substance in the statement that lepers and tuberculosis sufferers who could have been saved are dying at the Mjanyana Hospital because of the lack of a resident doctor .
2. In particular I wish to thank the Opposition members for their support of a measure which will not be popular in many circles but which the responsibilities of office have forced us to I trust that the detail of the Bill now accept.
(b) Regular routine visits by a specialist doctor are made to the institution every month, once a month to treat leper patients 295 .
12. As I stated before this measure will of course have no force or effect in the "White " areas of the Transkei but the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has undertaken to have its provisions made applicable in those areas (where incidentally the vast majority of taxable properties are situated) by means of a Proclamation to be issued in terms of section 70(3) of the Constitution Act. The White areas of Umzimkulu and Matatiele will not be included as these areas have already imposed a road tax of their own.
before you will enjoy the same responsible consideration as was accorded the proposals I made in Committee of Ways and Means .
3. The Bill incorporates in legal terms the proposals as accepted by the Assembly and seeks to provide for every situation which might arise in the process of collecting the tax. I think that there is equity in the selection of properties to be taxed on the one hand and those to be exempted on the other. 4. I proposed that all land, together with buildings and structures thereon, which is held or occupied solely for residential purposes under quitrent title , certificate of occupation, permit or permission shall not be taxed .
13. Mr. Chairman I trust that members will find the Bill acceptable . It seeks merely, without deviating from the unanimous recommendation of the Committee , to implement equitably the wishes of this Assembly. I accordingly move that it be now read a second time.
5. I proposed an exception , viz. that buildings and other structures on trading and tradesmen's sites held under quitrent title issued in terms of Proclamation No. 11 of 1922 and which are occupied solely for residential purposes should be taxed .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think it would be foolhardy for me to challenge the principles contained in this bill because when this House sat as a committee on ways and means it accepted these principles . Furthermore , when this Assembly passed the Transkeian Road Tax Amendment Act in 1969 it in effect said that immovable property, even that belonging to Africans in the Transkei , should be taxed . In terms of the schedule to this bill that Act is being repealed as a whole and this one is going to be substituted therefor. I am, however, surprised that the Government should fear to tax properties on land held under a certificate of occupation (in effect, to tax immovable property in the administrative areas of the Transkei) because if I understand the position correctly, kraal sites in administrative areas will not fall under the provisions of this Act. Probably the motivation is the fact that the people in the rural areas cannot afford to carry another tax, and probably to retain the loyalty of those people they should find themselves not liable to this tax. (Laughter) However, I hope it is in the mind of the Government at some time in the future to consider a tax on these properties with a view to increasing revenue. It cannot be argued that they will be exempt because they have no ownership of the land , because the lessees of dwellinghouses and railway property are going to be liable under this tax and they are not the owners of such property. I notice that it is contemplated that the Government will benefit by an amount of about R120,000 from the imposition of this tax and, in fact, this Government will be receiving that money in the knowledge that the original road tax was intended to be used for the improvement of roads . We are hoping that as an outflow of this revenue our roads are going to be improved considerably. I have nothing further to add , Mr. Chairman, as details of the various clauses will come under close scrutiny during the committee stage. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6. Furthermore , I proposed that all property used for trading and business purposes should be taxed. 7. Finally I intimated that the tax should be at the rate of 5/8 cent in the Rand based on the value of property appearing on the valuation rolls. That is the same rate as the Transkeian Territories Road Tax at present.
8. All these proposals have been accepted by this Assembly and incorporated in the Bill and little therefore remains to be said for the purpose of a Second Reading, especially as the purpose of each clause will be explained presently in the Committee Stage of the Bill . 9. However , perhaps it would be just as well to explain certain aspects here and now because many of the provisions are not exactly selfexplanatory. For instance , in considering the Bill it would be just as well to know exactly what is meant by " Bantu residential area " without first having to refer to Act 25 of 1945. By this term is meant for purposes of the Bill before you, a Bantu village , or a location. But before members run away with the idea that properties are to be taxed which are leased, for example in the Umtata Municipal location and occupied for residential purposes , I must refer them to the exemption in clause 4(1 ) (p) . 10. The position regarding " railway properties " as well as " beneficial improvements " as defined in the Valuation Ordinance have already been dealt with in the Committee of Ways and Means and I need not repeat myself. 11. For the benefit of members who may think that the principle embodied in clause 2(4) is repeated in and partly contradicted by clause 4(1 )(a) I should perhaps explain that the latter provision refers to properties which are exempted (except in the circumstances described in clauses 5(a), (b) and (c) while the former refers to authorities which are to be exempted. It is interesting to note that X.D.C. property will be taxed and that that body will therefore not enjoy an unfair advantage over other businesses .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I have nothing more to say, except that I highly appreciate the remarks made by the hon. the
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1
Leader of the Opposition. I can assure him that as I will be Chief Minister ad infinitum....
will fully cover every aspect of pensions administration in the Transkei Government Service.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: You've got a hope. This is your last term .
6.
The substantive clauses of the Bill chiefly relate to retiring ages by consolidating and coordinating all existing legislation in this respect. One of the main objects of the Bill is the consolidation of all the various pensions enactments at present in force into a single Act. This , quite apart from any other obvious advantages , will certainly make for improved administration of the pension fund.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: - ……..I will consider his suggestions as regards property tax on land held under certificate of occupation as soon as I get a mandate from the people who have put me in this place.... MR. GUZANA : for this.
You didn't get a mandate
7. For the sake of a better appreciation and understanding of the contents of the Bill at this stage, I would like to mention the following significant features in addition to those which have already been touched upon:-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: ....and I have no doubt that as responsible leaders ofthe Transkei people, when the time comes for them to consider the increase in revenue they will not shirk their duty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman , and I move that the bill be now read a second time .
(a) In subsections (i), (j ) and (k) of Section 3(2 ) of the Bill provision is made for the adjustment of contributions and of membership in cases where contributors , as a result of transfer or change of employment, are required to become members of another pension fund . This is an entirely new provision in Transkeian pensions legislation, and will be of great benefit to contributors in that they will be assured of unbroken pensionable service irrespective of any change of place or capacity in which they are required to serve from time to time.
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the committee stage of the bill will be tomorrow, the 28th day of May, 1970 , or so soon thereafter. TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: -
(b) Section 4 of the Bill, read with the Schedule thereto deals with retiring ages.
Chairman, Honourable Paramount 1. Mr. Chiefs and Honourable Members , Irise to explain some of the provisions of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Bill.
It provides , with certain exceptions , for a uniform retiring age of 60 years in respect of all classes of contributors , male and female. The question of a uniform retiring age of 65 years was broached by the P.S.C. but my department prevailed upon that body to keep the matter in abeyance until the next actuarial valuation of the fund is undertaken in March, 1971 .
2. As you probably know, the existing Government Pension Fund has its statutory origin in the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 , Section 61 of which lays down, inter alia , that , unless and until the Legislative Assembly otherwise provides , the pension fund established by Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 shall become the pension fund of the Transkei Government under the name " Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund ".
The exceptions consist of those contributors who, by virtue of entrenched provisions in existing pensions and other legislation, have the right to retire at an age in excess of 60 years . These are briefly as follows :-
3. Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 is the original enactment which established a pension fund for the employees of the Transkeian Territories General Council and , subsequently of the Transkeian Territorial Authority. Thus , the present pension fund is founded on a set of rules which, although basically sound, are couched in terms which are somewhat outmoded and which cannot be appropriately applied under the circumstances now prevailing.
(a) Officers or employees who became members of the pension fund on or before 10th December, 1963, have the right to retire at the age of 63 years . This group consists almost entirely of personnel who formerly served under the Transkeian Territorial Authority.
4. The present Bill is consequently the logical outcome of the situation which I have described.
(b) Officers or employees who were transferred from the Republican Government Service to the Transkeian Government Service have the right to ritire at the age of 65 years .
5. The Bill is mainly an enabling measure , providing, as it does , for the making of regulations with effect from a date to be decided upon by the Minister of the Interior. The enabling and substantive clauses of the Bill , together with the regulations which are to follow,
(c) The Schedule to the Bill indicates the
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extent to which certain existing legislation is to be repealed or amended.
(ii) Section 1 of Act No. 5 of 1969 which provides for the payment of additional pension benefits , in the form of bonuses and Temporary allowances , to retired members of the pension fund .
be tabled at the next session of this House. We are happy to note that a public servant will not suffer in his pension benefits by reason of the fact that his status has been changed and his place of employment has been changed . This will mean that there are no hard feelings amongst the civil servants if they are transferred from one capacity to another merely because they fear an adverse result on their pension receipts on retirement. Now, Sir, this Government has had the difficulty of recruiting responsible servants to the various departments under it, and invariably the Public Service Commission's Report has always stressed the dearth of suitable personnel to take up positions of responsibility under this Government, hence we are a bit puzzled to find that the Government has different ages of retirement for civil servants . Some have the right to retire at the age of 63, others have a right to retire at the age of 65 , and I think there will be those who have the right to retire at the age of 60. In our view, we feel that the experienced civil servant should continue in his job until he reaches the age of 65. I know you are going to say that a person may well apply to extend his service until he reaches the age of 65, but why not give him the right to retire at 65 years of age , although he can apply to be retired earlier on grounds of health or otherwise? You have indicated that it has not been possible to accept the uniform retiring age of 65 because you are awaiting an actuarial valuation which will be done in March, 1971. Now, I ask you, Sir, to explain the relationship between the actuarial valuation of the fund and the retirement age of 65. The difference between the two retirement ages is only two years , and one wants to know the financial implications involved if, right from the outset, retirement age is fixed at 65.
8. Mr. Chairman , I now move that the Bill be read a second time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Many public servants are opposed to the retirement age of 65. in
The original Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 , together with its three amending proclamations mentioned , are to be repealed in their entirety. On the other hand amendments to Proclamation No. R334 of 1963 (Public Service Regulations) and Act No. 9 of 1966 (Transkei Education Act) are necessary in order to bring certain provisions thereof into line with the related provisions of the present Bill, especially in so far as retiring ages are concerned. The sections which are to be repealed in Act No. 2 of 1967 and Act No. 5 of 1969 , are those which should more properly be included in the regulations to be promulgated under the present Bill when it becomes law. (d) The following provisions of the two Acts mentioned are not to be repealed : (i) Section 2( i) of Act No. 2 of 1967 which provides for the admission of teachers to the Transkeian Pension Fund , and secures the rights and privileges acquired by teachers whilst they were formerly members of a provincial pension fund; and
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: The Public Service Commission has recommended that.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this side of the House is not going to oppose this bill at all. It has always been our main concern that we should provide adequately for a man who has rendered loyal and faithful service to the Government at his retirement. One of the tragedies of retirement is that this usually becomes a period of impoverishment towards death, and if this bill had become an Act before some of the teachers retired from the teaching profession, probably we would not have this House as a retirement place . ( Laughter) You have indicated , Sir , that this is an enabling measure and we hope that the regulations which are going to be drawn under this enabling measure will maintain the spirit which is intended when we say we are providing for a pension for our people. When the Transkei Education Act was passed by this House , providing for certain regulations to be drawn up, I think it took at least two years before those regulations were Without by drawn up and became available . implication pricking the conscience of the then hon. Minister of Education, we hope that the regulations to be drawn up under this bill will
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But many public servants are totally against it.
MR. GUZANA : I will hear you on that when you speak later on. Is the solvency of the fund the deciding factor? In my view the longer is the period of subscription by the Government and the employee , the more solvent does the fund become. Is the Department expecting an adverse or a favourable actuarial valuation in March, 1971 , to determine whether or not it will accept the age of 65 as the age when an employee has a right to retire ? Since the last actuarial valuation of the fund what factors are relevant to its solvency or otherwise at the present moment? I do not say, Sir , you are an actuary but you have related the March, 1971 , actuarial valuation of the fund to the determination of the retiring age at 65. We will be happy to have a comment on this important point. As I have indicated already, we are not going to oppose the provisions of this bill and would like 298.
to see it becoming an Act as soon as possible . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I spoke to the motion I said that whoever handled this matter did not understand the conditions prevailing in the Transkei. This legislation was passed in 1963 at a time when there were still Chief Native Commissioners who do not exist today. There are amendments to the proclamation, suggesting the substitution of the magistrate for Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner. I also find some difficulty explaining legislation which is not before you. I have already explained that chiefs and headmen, the people who are in control of the land, do not come into this legislation except when they have to do the dirty work. The first point I object to is the powers of the magistrate over the chiefs when it comes to matters of land . The land does not belong to the magistrate , but to the chiefs . You will find in this legislation that if a person wishes to remove into an irrigation scheme area he is allowed to do so by a magistrate. That is unknown to us . The procedure is that this person should first consult the paramount chief and the tribal authority before he is allowed to do so. We are also under the impression that the superintendent should concentrate only on matters of the land and should not have anything to do with the camps . Now you find that according to these regulations the Native Affairs Commissioner may go at any time to the residential areas to inspect them. We
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , first of all I must say I appreciate the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and wish to assure him that my department and I will do everything in our power to expedite the drawing up of these regulations . I do not say I am promising I will be able to table them next session, but I say we will do all in our power to expedite the matter . With regard to the question he posed, it is such a difficult one , and I am not an actuary , as he said , and I would have to get expert advice on the matter. It is true that I put it in my second reading, comparing it in relation to the retiring age, but what I can say is that the Public Service Act (Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 , that is) does provide for the retention of the services , say, of a good man up to the age of 65. MR. GUZANA : that long, isn't he?
But he is good if he lasts
• THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: That is true. Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further to say apart from that. I can only say I thank the hon. members for their co-operation. I move that the bill be now read a second time .
Agreed to.
are not used to that type of behaviour . You find that the superintendent may give notice to the residents on notice boards and our people are not used to notice boards because most of them are illiterate. If the people must be informed of a certain issue concerning land matters , then I think the right thing is for the headman to call a meeting of the people concerned. I made mention of the fact that the superintendent sometimes employs a ranger. This ranger comes into trouble with the people. The ranger appeals to the chief or the headman to settle the matter. Now for instance , I told the ranger to go to the superintendent because I have no jurisdiction over the camps . The headman also told him the same story. Now we do not know who is going to exercise jurisdiction over those people who live in the irrigation scheme , nor do we know if the superintendent is going to try cases or administer those people . I do not know if there is anything that is not clear ?
The bill was read a second time . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, the committee stage will be on Thursday, 28th May , 1970 , or so soon thereafter.
SUGGESTED
AMENDMENT OF IRRIGATION PROCLAMATION
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I may just refresh our minds , if you will give me the opportunity, you will remember that we requested time in which to study the proclamation and also to give the mover an opportunity again to speak to this motion so that he may point out its provisions , the disadvantages which he sees in the proclamation as it stands , and what amendments he considered were necessary to make it suitable to the changed circumstances here. To that purpose , Sir, I feel that we should waive the rules and allow the hon. member again to explain the proclamation and these disadvantages and what he would like done, as that was the intention when the discussion was adjourned .
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman, may I, as a resident of an irrigation scheme , be allowed to add to the explanation given by the last speaker as to why he has made these suggestions in regard to the regulations of the irrigation scheme ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I wish to associate myself with what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has just said , and , as the person who moved the adjournment of the debate on this motion, that was the understanding on which such adjournment was sought. Isecond that the rules be waived in order to give an opportunity to the hon. member to explain to this House .
THE CHAIRMAN : later on.
I will give you a chance
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it would appear that the provisions of this proclamation are felt by those who are settled in an area enjoying a large irrigation scheme . It would appear that the regulations are very stringent and precise ; that the tribal authority is excluded from exercising jurisdiction over the running of the scheme ; that the
Agreed to. The debate was resumed.
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honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development may request a regional authority to appoint a committee in a purely advisory capacity; that it is the superintendent working in consultation with the Bantu Affairs Commissioner who exercises control and directs what shall and what shall not be done. For instance , he it is , and he alone , who can authorize the keeping of pigs and poultry under a permit specifying under what conditions these may be kept in an irrigation scheme area; that, for instance, anybody who jumps into one of these furrows to have a swim or allows his children to have a swim shall be guilty of an offence; that absenteeism of the allottee or occupier may
irrigation proclamation , and it would be our duty in fact, it has already been decided to go into them and see what improvements may be brought in , especially in consultation with the regional authorities concerned . MR. GUZANA : If I may suggest this , an irrigation scheme is not only limited to that area. It is something that is going to happen over the whole of the area, so your suggestions will have to be concerned with more than the regional authority area concerned in this particular motion. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , it will be that, but they have already experienced this and will be of great help in making suggestions.
result in disqualification if it extends over a period of three months; that the nominee of the Occupier shall be approved by the superintendent; and other matters which may seem rather incongruous where there is a tribal authority exercising administrative control over people settled on a piece of land . In effect, whenever an irrigation scheme area is declared , the nett result is that the jurisdiction of the tribal authority and of the headman is excluded . Whilst I do not subscribe to the fact that the land belongs to the chiefs and the headmen I accept the fact that they administer the land in the area of their jurisdiction, and what may well happen is that a tribal authority may direct in one way, a superintendent direct in the opposite way and there is a clash of authority. Mr. Chairman, it is impossible to canvass all the implications of this proclamation relating to irrigation scheme areas , and some of the provisions of that proclamation ride roughshod on the powers and duties which are exercised by regional authorities and tribal authorities. I feel , however, that this House cannot go into these regulations in detail, otherwise it would be taking up too much of its time in matters which require people who are expert draughtsmen and legally qualified to do this . If the mover would accept my suggestion, the motion should be accepted and referred either to a select committee or the Government be requested to submit the matter to its legal draughtsmen so that its provisions take into account the constitutional position of chiefs , headmen and tribal authorities and regional authorities , regard being had to the fact that an irrigation scheme is one that has to be run profitably to the benefit of the people. For instance , I do not think a superintendent will welcome these men with many wives going to settle there. (Laughter)
MR. T.E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , at this stage I do not think it is necessary for me to go into the matter in detail because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition touched on the points I wished to raise. As a man of Emigrant Tembuland I will just mention a few points affecting the people of this particular area, so that provision can be made beforehand for any other area which is to receive an irrigation scheme . After the passing of the 1966 Act, people were told that from then on no land will pass from the owner to another person. In accordance with the regulations which I have stated, the superintendent has the right, after the allotment of land , to take the land from one man and pass it on to another. Something nearly happened in the allotment of land when people wanted a land and applied to the headman, but the superintendent said he was the only person in charge of the scheme. People have been told now that four administrative areas in the St. Mark's district are going to be controlled by the superintendent . This means that the headman ofthe four locations will have nothing to do with these four administrative areas under irrigation, even in matters affecting their stock. You will find that under this proclamation there is something which we opposed long ago - that is , the culling of stock. In the St. Mark's district not a single man has given a hand to the culling of stock. There was never any culling of stock in our area because the grazing grounds were consolidated into one area. Another sore point of the residents is that the superintendent has ruled that the social beneficiaries may not have any land. I hear a remark : Why isn't he assaulted? He nearly was assaulted . Another matter is whether the amount of the social benefits is enough to live on after the person has been dispossessed Some of these aged people have of his land. grandchildren to look after whose parents absconded many years ago, so the pension money is augmented by what the pensioner gets from the land. Even though crop rotation is under these regulations it is not working well . Qamata has suffered from the drought for many years but we have now been called upon to plant this cotton, but cotton is not food . Every morning the people go on watering it, but it is no food. It flowers daily so that in the contours where they were supposed to plant maize they could not do it, because this crop gives no opportunity
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why not? MR. GUZANA: It might cause an embarrassment to the superintendent in the exercise of his authority as to who should be there and who should not be there. I am making that suggestion , that the matter be accepted and referred to a select committee of the Government to submit suggestions . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. 'Chairman and hon. members , I can assure you that the Government and the departments concerned (maybe the Department ofthe Interior and the Department of Agriculture ) are aware of the difficulties which have been discovered in the
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understanding between the rangers and the future local authorities . I wish to stress that point. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
for other crops to be planted . At one time we were collected together and told to go to East London to see this cotton. The cotton is put into bales in the same way as wool . Even in East London the people are dissatisfied with the price of this cotton. There is a lot of work to be done in connection with this cotton, because it has first to be made clean. While you are working on the cotton you have no time to attend to other things which may grow on your land . I do not wish to be lengthy because the hon. Chief Mteto who has moved this motion has served the people . We are not squatters there, we are residents. The people were going to object if the Republican laws were returned and made use of, because they would then revert to the position of squatters . We are glad that the Opposition is interested in this matter because there will soon be another irrigation scheme at Qumanco. I say, in short we must nip this thing in the bud because if irrigation has to be extended to other areas and these regulations are not repealed , there is bound to be a lot of confusion and unpleasantness , and our people will by no means entertain the bringing in of culling of stock through the back door.
Motion put and carried unanimously. INSPECTION OF ROADS AND BRIDGES The debate was resumed. CHIEF H.Z. ZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to second the motion in connection with roads of the Transkei. Yesterday the hon. the Minister of Roads drew our attention to the explanation in her policy speech , in which she said her department had failed to achieve anything . (Interjections) What this motion seeks is quite clear , even if she is not going to do anything. It asks for the appointment of a team of inspectors to inspect the condition of the roads and bridges , and it further states that all the minor roads should be taken over by this Government - that is , the roads at present under the direct control of the tribal authorities . The hon. Minister made it quite clear that she is not prepared to take over such roads, but she mentioned promises about roads which would be taken over if applications are received. There are such roads in the Butterworth district. I think it would be wisdom on the part of the hon. Minister to transfer these roads to the department and the small amount of money allotted to the tribal authorities for works on these roads should also be taken by the department to add to the funds which the department already has , because there is no machinery in the rural areas to work on these roads. Even the graders are just kept on the roads which have not been attended to. The former Minister of Education can support what I have said because at times he wanted to visit certain schools and he found difficulty in travelling on such roads . The money given to the tribal authorities is so small that it cannot keep any roads in good repair , not even a short section of a hundred yards . The road leading to Baziya is in a very bad state , and there is another road from Ndabakazi to Tsomo which is also very bad ; also from Idutywa to Nqamakwe , from Butterworth to Willowvale , from Butterworth to Kentani. There are corrugations and they are in a very bad state of disrepair. The money that is scattered all over should be collected so as to enable certain people to work on the roads . I have nothing further to say, Mr. Chairman.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , may I ask a question? I wish to ask the hon. member whether the plants of this cotton are eaten by the people. MR. TSHUNUNGWA: No , Mr. Chairman, not even goats will eat this cotton.
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the suggested amendment of the proclamation controlling irrigation schemes was resumed.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , after the explanations given by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Guzana , and the hon. Mr. Ka-Tshunungwa and the hon. Minister , I would like to knowfrom the mover ofthe motion whether he wishes to say anything . CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to add except to express appreciation for the explanations given by the hon. members and I fully support the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in his suggestion that this matter be attended to by the Government's legal experts .
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am in the Opposition and I stand up in support of the motion by the hon. Mr. Majija. In truth, hon. members , roadwork has not been performed satisfactorily during the last year. We took a petition to the department in order to give information about places which needed attention. We came from different places and although we submitted that report nothing was rectified . I made a report about a certain bridge over the Ngqungqu and a road leading to Coffee Bay, and I pointed out it was so dangerous that it would be very risky for a drunken person to go over that bridge . I also reported about a bridge over the Mncwassa on
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will not say anything in opposition to what has been said but I support the suggestions made . However , I wish to lay emphasis on this point, that when this committee of Government and legal experts consider this question they should not confine themselves only to matters affecting Qamata as far as this irrigation scheme is concerned , but they should also consider conditions where there may be irrigation schemes as well as fencing and matters affecting grazing, and also officers employed as rangers in such areas , in order to avoid mis301.
of the Government side is to vote against it if it is dragged towards voting, because we had expected , after the explanation of the hon. Minister as to what the position is, that the mover would withdraw the motion. The motion contains two parts. The first part is that it seeks to have an inspection team appointed by the Department of Roads and Works to inspect the roads . To that the hon. Minister explained that there is a senior roads foreman and two roads foremen in each region whose duty it is to inspect the roads. She further explained that there is a head office supervisory control staff which comprises one chief roads foreman and three principal roads foremen who inspect the roads in the northern, central and southern areas , Now, in view of the fact that there are these officials who are charged with the duty of inspecting roads, one would have thought that the various members from the various constituencies would approach the Department of Roads and Works and apply that these officials should go to their areas and inspect the roads , instead of saying a team of inspectors must be appointed. Surely there is no difficulty with that, because these people would be doing their duty , if at all they are asked to go and inspect especially those Now, to say there roads which are so bad? there is alwhen team inspection an must be ready an inspection team , I don't know what you want. The hon. members could go to the hon. Minister and tell her that those inspection teams which she has in her department are not doing their work - that she must send them to your particular area to inspect the roads there . The second part of the motion is that all roads in the Transkei should be declared as government roads. The hon. Minister explained yesterday
a road leading to Sea View. When the rivers overflow people from Bomvanaland find it impossible to attend court cases. In rainy seasons we also meet difficulty in taking sick people to hospital as the rivers are in flood . There is a deviation on a road leading to Ngqeleni which is far too narrow and it is situated in very bad terrain. When you see a car and a bus pass one another there is always the fear of one vehicle falling over. There is a certain bridge on the road to Hole-in-the-Wall and it is impossible to cross that stream by that bridge because it is so low that when the river is in flood it covers the bridge. There is another pridge which was put up whilst I was a child. It was constructed by my grandfather. It is useful for children going to school when the Ngqungqu stream is in flood because then it is impossible for them to cross the river, but at present the bridge is broken. It was very useful to children going to school . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why don't you approach the department about these things? MR. NKOSIYANE: I have been to the department in this connection. We have another difficulty in connection with certain roads . We have four tribal authorities in that area and it is impossible for those members to attend meetings . It is also impossible for us to go to certain plantations . The trouble is that the tribal authorities cannot attend efficiently to these roads because they haven't the proper machinery. We remember that these roads were looked after by the Bunga and we never had any difficulty then because the Bunga responded to our requests. We go to the tribal authorities and ask for help, but they have only four employees and no machinery with which to repair the roads. The labourers are only given wheelbarrows and a man might spend a month pushing a wheelbarrow. We are pleased that these people obtain work but the number of employees should be increased. It is for that reason we say the Department of Roads and Works does not do its work, not to mention the buses that take us from our homes in Qokolweni . You find that the condition of the road is so bad that the buses rock badly. The graders do not do their work because there is no-one to supervise them. We appeal to the hon. the Minister of Roads . We are not happy about the condition of the roads. They are used by the people and the life of the people depends on the roads . The railing on the Ngqungqu bridge has broken away and it is a dreadful bridge to cross . Every day you have to travel over that bridge you fear an accident. The road to Coffee Bay is very bad and people from Johannesburg and overseas want to go and see that place because it is very beautiful. We would like that road to be attended to and graded properly so that these tourists will enjoy travelling on that road. I firmly support the motion.
that according to the definition of roads in the Transkei, even bridle-paths are roads and in the administrative areas we have some roads going to the lands. Now, the hon. the Minister of Roads further explained that in the same way as we have roads under the Provincial Administration and roads under the Divisional Councils , the Transkei has got a system whereby some of the roads are repaired by tribal authorities. Now, if the hon. member for Mqanduli feels that the workers on these roads are insufficient, because you only find four on some roads , it is the duty of the tribal authority to apply for funds to employ more people in its area . I merely wanted, hon. members , to give a further explanation and to implore the hon. member to withdraw this motion which is already provided for in the Department of Roads and Works . Instead, the hon. members must approach the department and ask for these inspectors to do their work, if they are not doing their work of inspecting the roads.
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the hon. member, the mover of the motion , to reply. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the reason why we have introduced this motion is because the roads in the districts are not being attended to . Yesterday I mentioned that some people from the Democratic Party went to the office of the department in connection with these matters and explained about the bad state of the roads and the low level of the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the House will notice that there was not even an amendment to this motion which, as the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works explained , should not even have come before this House. The intention on the part
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bridges . We were then told that we would be written to an our names and addresses were obtained. Up to date we have received no reply, and we then thought that all these things belonged to the Never- never. The hon. the Minister of Roads and Works gave an explanation and said that the reason why they are not in a position to attend to this matter is because of shortage of staff. Who is to blame for the shortage of staff? Is it the Government or are we to blame? I put the blame upon the Government. I will not be lengthy but will just say I move accordingly.
be done by the headman, and you will realise , therefore, how such stock-thefts can be carried out. There are many other things which can be done by the headman as far as the people are concerned. You know when a question of land and kraal sites arises , when applicants come to ask for permission to remove cattle from one land to another, some of the headmen ask for a commission. These headmen have to educate their children. During the last census it was the headmen and sub-headmen who assisted , and those people are not paid. (Interjections) Maybe some headmen from Pondoland were paid but our headmen were not paid. Whether they were paid or not the motion states that these people have great responsiblities and duties. The headmen have sometimes prevented serious crimes, such as arson. Further, these subheadmen act as guards to protect women and widows . Sometimes the husbands are at work
Motion put and negatived . PAYMENT OF HEADMEN AND SUB- HEADMEN CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:
and leave their wives at home . Right in the middle of the night something happens and a report is sent to the sub-headman who comes round waking the men and making investigations . The maintenance of peace in the Transkei is largely due to work performed by headmen and sub-headmen. I know it was this very House that raised the stipends of headmen a few years ago.
(a) raising the stipends of headmen; and (b) paying sub-headmen as employees or administrators of the Government. " Mr. Chairman, the people I am speaking about cannot get any other employment. They work throughout the year keeping the administrative areas which are assigned to them in order. They work for the Government and also assist the people . These headmen have wives and children and if these headmen are not paid they will be a source of trouble to people, and I think many of them have been a trouble to people. If one is not paid sufficient one has to think of other means of acquiring money. We do not wish these people to be put in a position where they may be victims to temptation, and wish to avoid bad talk in connection with them so that it will not be said they are suckers of blood of the people over whom they have jurisdiction. These headmen ought to › peace-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: House.
No , it was not this
CHIEF MAJEKE : That motion was raised by the hon. Mr. Bubu who was sitting here, and an application was made that the headmen should be paid monthly when at that time they were paid quarterly. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It was not this House - it was the Government. CHIEF MAJEKE : from here.
But the motion emanated
THE CHIEF MINISTER : discussed here .
makers among the people and shou not encourage evil . In giving an example I will speak about stock-thieves who steal cattle and sheep belonging to the people and they make a living through theft. You will find that these people will commit this offence with ease when a headman has some interest. Just imagine cattle remote from places like Mount Frere or Engobo, passing through an administrative area without any arrests being made . These animals are not flown through the air but are driven over the veld . They will graze on the common grazing ground of an administrative location and no action will be taken by anyone there. These are usually clever people. Thieves can persuade a headman to see nothing, though in fact the headman does ' see. A hungry headman when offered R60 in order to keep his eyes shut accepts money and closes his eyes. When the police come to investigate they first go to the headman's kraal , because the headman knows where the cattle are hidden, and whilst he talks to the policeman a little boy is sent with a warning. The word is sent to the man who is keeping the cattle to remove them elsewhere and then the headman brings the police to that kraal , but on arrival the policeman finds nothing. That is what can
No, it was only
CHIEF MAJEKE : I am pleased you say it was the Government's doing, but what actually happened was that the Government only gave them a small increment because they were paid R10 a month and that is insufficient. R10 a month to a headman who should appear before a magistrate in court looking well -groomed is just tomfoolery to a person who has to perform such duties . I assert that these people are of such importance that their status is just a little below that of chiefs , if it is any different at all. What I wish to state is that the commencing stipend payable to the headman from the date of his appointment should not be less than R30 a month, and as he works he should be entitled to an increasing scale. Before I take my seat it would appear that the dignity of the headmen is being lowered as far as the people are concerned . It is a very bad thing when you hear people say : There is the headman, I am sure he (Laughter) is going to ask for something. Imagine when people of their standard are regarded as beggars and have become a laughingstock to people! 303.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : I second the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move an amendment to the motion by the hon. member for Qumbu , Chief S.S. Majeke : That the words after the word "Government" be deleted and the following substituted therefor :"should be congratulated on the improvements already effected in the emoluments and pensions payable to headmen and can be relied upon to review the position from time to time. " In the first place , Mr. Chairman, I want to remind hon. members of this House that any Government, in order to perform the services of a country, should have money, and that money should come from the taxpayers . Now, the hon. member who is the mover of this motion seeks an authority from this House directing the Government to increase the stipends of headmen and sub-headmen. Now, one would expect the hon. member to put forward his budget before the House and point out where this money must come from. A few days ago this House passed the Financial Bill appropriating R26,261,000 towards the services of this country. As Minister of Finance I went to all the trouble to explain how this money was going to be spent. Now, I want to put a question to the hon. member. This question he can reply to when replying to the debate . I want that he should specifically tell the Minister of Finance as to where he can get the money towards the service which he has referred to. Now, I want to make it clear that headmen are an integral part of the Transkeian administration , but they are not civil servants in the true sense of the word " public servant " , in that they have no time schedule on which they should apply themselves to work that is required by the Government. A headman can remain for a month doing nothing and only go to the office towards the end of the month to get his salary. There is no obligation on his part to run around the country doing service , but I do not say that the headmen should not perform services that However , are required by the Government. they cannot be termed public servants who are entitled to a remuneration which might be put on the same level as that of civil servants . Originally, the headmen were the eyes and ears of the chief; they derived their revenue from petty cases that came before them for arbitration. Now, these cases were appropriated by the magistrates and the revenue that accrued to the headmen fell away. However , headmen still remained officers of the Government who were paid a small amount of money for their services . Originally they received R3 per quarter - that was under the Union Government. When the increases were made they were paid R6 per quarter. MR. K.M. GUZANA: (Laughter)
headmen received as a start R64 per annum and they were given increments after every six years . The increases were made as follows:After every six years they received (from R64) R80 , then R96 and then R112 , and that was the top notch. Now, that is still the position today in the Republic of South Africa which subsidizes this Government to perform its services , but the Republic has never questioned us for having made the increase in 1965. The increases are as follows :- All headmen start with R120 per annum and after five years it increases to R144; then R168; then R192; and the maximum is R216 per annum. Now, Mr. Chairman, ifyou compare the position with the Republic you will find that our headmen in the Transkei are better off than their counterparts in the Republic of South Africa. My Government will not mind if the hon. members across the floor will put a motion that the taxpayers should pay towards this service, because if you have to perform a service you must have money for that service, and the money which we spend is the money which comes from the Republic of South Africa who will put a question to our Government: "You are paying your headmen far more than we pay our headmen in the Republic. Now, you seem to have a lot of money. Do you still require our subsidy which we give to you?" At present my department, without having been told by any responsible Opposition (Laughter) is considering increasing the pensions of headmen. Now, don't prejudice their case, because I will stop that if you pretend you are going to force me to do what you want. I am still investigating that but I will tell you I have no money and you cannot question me because I am in charge offinances . I am considering increasing the daily allowances ofboth chiefs that is, the allowances they reand headmen ceive when they are absent from home on duty. You see, the chiefs and headmen at present do not get any allowance when they are absent from home on duty, unlike the other civil servants who receive these amounts . Now, my department is considering that without having been told by this Opposition in front of me. Now, I wish to assure you that we have a responsible Government and we take our instructions from the responsible people who form this side of the House , (Laughter) the six members of the Cabinet. Of course you know they listen to reasonable people who form the Government side. I know you want to go out to the people after this and say you suggested to the Government that the salaries should be increased , but we are not going to listen to you; we are going to do what we like , and what we think is best. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Through the back door by increasing allowances but not salaries .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, you see I have asked you to go back and ask the people to pay the tax for that.
Was that your salary?
MR. DUMALISILE: A question, please , Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Minister of Finance has told us shortly that he last gave an increment to headmen during 1965 and then he said the Republican Government never questioned them for doing so. Do you think if you give headmen an increment now the Republican
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was never a headman. I was paid a stipend of a chief that was paid to my grandfather. Now, that was the position before the Transkei Government came into power. In 1965 when the increases were made, 304.
Government will question you for your action?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: through our budget.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, the Republican Government cannot questiom me for my actions if I increase the salaries , but I will do so as soon as you give me the money.
MR. GUZANA : And we are asking you to go through your budget. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I say you must leave it to this responsible Cabinet of six Ministers . The reasonable people in this House have full confidence in the six Ministers and they are not prepared to listen to irresponsible agitators who fill these benches across the floor. They themselves will make a request to the Minister Why of Finance to consider the position. haven't they brought a motion before the House ? It is because they are reasonable enough to know that the Government is doing everything in its power to ameliorate the position of these Government servants . Now, we have recently increased the salaries of public servants - the salaries of teachers , the salaries of members of this very Assembly - and you twenty-five people who fill these seats which are in front of the six Ministers are not reasonable enough to appreciate the task which is confronting my Government. (Interjections ) If you are really serious and you all want to assist the Government, please put forward a motion and we shall support you.
MR . K.M. GUZANA: You have an immovable property tax coming in. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , that is going to the roads . MR. GUZANA : Last time you said it was not going to the roads .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , but if you ask me to increase the stipends you must tell me where to get the money . This is a challenge to the Opposition that this is a responsible Government and when they bring in a financial motion they must advise the Government where to get the money, and if you don't advise us we are not in a position to pay the salaries from nothing. (Interjections ) AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , when this House adjourned before tea I was trying to find out from the leaders on the other side if they are prepared to go to the electorate and tell the people that they would like the taxes raised in order to increase the allowances of these officers of the Government. Now , as Minister of Finance I will gladly support them. If they can reply positively I will be very pleased , then I will be in a position to pay headmen the required R30 a month. As I say, across the Kei River headmen are paid R6 after three months as a stipend. Now, that is the position right through the Republic , and the Transkei Government pays even better bonuses to our headmen than are paid in the Republic . We pay as a start to our headmen R10 per month, and I have said to you that this money comes from the Republican Government which pays its officers a lesser amount than we pay our officers . Now, any reasonable person in bringing forward this motion should find ways and means of implementing it. My Government is not unaware of the position that the headmen are performing very, very arduous duties in that they have to attend to the complaints of their administrative wards but, as I say, they cannot be called public servants and in paying them allowances we must not appear ridiculous in the face of the Republic. As it is now, we are trying by all means as a Government to find ways and means of increasing their salaries and if it is possible we shall do it, but not at the point of a revolver from the benches across the floor. (Laughter) We shall not do that.
MR. GUZANA : There is the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, the motion you must put forward is that the taxes of the people must be increased in order to carry out the services of the country. We cannot pay salaries without taxation - that is reasonable . MR. GUZANA : But during the last general election you promised headmen and sub-headmen they were going to be paid . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who promised them? MR. GUZANA : You did .
(Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , what I put to them was : Look gentlemen, we have increased your stipends and as soon as the position permits we will consider increasing them again. My Government is not a machine which goes to sleep and wakes up to find we can pay fantastic salaries . Look at the hon. member across the floor he does not put the amount of R30 in his motion which he has suggested today, because he knows I will oppose the whole motion . He brings it forward in the debate . Why not put it in the motion in order that I should prepare to reply to him? Now, if I ask him where I am going to get the R30 a month to pay headmen, will he be able to tell me , or is anyone across the floor in a position to tell me? During the days when headmen were under the chiefs they were given a beast for calling people to attend the courts . They were not servants as such, but they did the work at the Great Place . Now the cases have been transferred to the magistrates ' courts . Can't you appreciate the efforts my Government is making to ameliorate their position : As I said , my Government is investigating the possibility of increasing their stipends and of paying allowances when they are away from
MR . GUZANA: What ways and means are you considering at the moment? THE CHIEF MINISTER : to tell you yet.
No, we will go
We are not going
MR. GUZANA : You are not going to tax the public, so the money is there. 305.
motion. I will consider it if it comes from the Government side , but I will not consider it as long as it comes from your side as long as you want to go and tell the people you are the Government, because you tell them you are the Government and you provide for all these services - that is what you tell them. Now we shall show the people that you are not the Government and the Government will act when they themselves intend to do so. Coming to the question of the sub-headmen, I regret to inform this House that all expenditure which has been made here has got to go through the Exchequer and the Exchequer must be satisfied that money is spent legally . Now first of all, before this Government can consider paying sub-headmen the hon. members across the floor must submit the legality of the appointment of these sub-headmen. In what statute are they provided for ? As far as I am aware, in the Authorities Act nothing is said about sub-headmen. I know very well that the hon. members across the floor, when they go to the country for vote- catching, tell the sub-headmen they are going to pay them. Now in a small location you find there are about 20 sub-headmen who are appointed at the convenience of the headman, and sometimes in a big location there are only about two or three sub-headmen. In other words , the sub-headmen are the officers of the headman. He appoints them without consulting anybody. The Government does not know them at all. What we know is that they are the counsellors of the heaman. Now, fortunately, my Government is not opposed to these sub-headmen being paid by the tribal authority as long as the expenditure of the tribal authority is kept within the limits allowed. In other words, the salaries that have got to be paid out of the tribal authority account shall not exceed If the tribal auone-half the total revenue .
home on duty, which does not happen in the Republic . But I want to put this question to the hon. members across the floor : When they bring forward these fantastic suggestions , do they ever think of the taxpayer? Do they ever think of the person who has got to see to the services of the country? Every time we find them requesting increases of salaries what about the other services? What about the wages of the ordinary labourer on the road? MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : We are always asking you for increases for them . THE CHIEF MINISTER: That's right, now give me the dough. I am sure you are capable of giving me the money. You have got the money. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think we shall continue to have fisticuffs in this House as long as the Chairman continues to allow members to speak sitting down . If a member wishes to ask a question the machinery is open to allow that. OPPOSITION MEMBER: the question.
You will object to
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Whether or not it is refused , that is the procedure. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, I want to ask a question: Suppose this hon. member was in the Cabinet, as he was so determined to be in 1963, would he be in a position to be paying salaries from the funds of the State - the salaries only, apart from performing the other services? Look, the money which goes towards salaries , as I said in my budget speech, is far above the sum of money which is spent for the ordinary services of the taxpayer, yet the principle in all governments is that the money that must go towards the payment of salaries should not exceed one-third of the total revenue of the country. I do not say my Government will not consider raising the stipends of headmen. We will consider that, but you think of the task which we have to face to increase the wages of the labourers , the old-age pensions , as we have done , your own salaries as members of this Assembly which have been given a fantastic rise , the salaries of the teachers .
thority is they can
in a position to collect R10,000 , spend R5,000 towards salaries and pay their sub-headmen . Well , hon. members , the chiefs and headmen have got an important source of revenue in that they try civil and criminal cases - cases that were tried by the magistrates before. A serious chief or head of the tribal authority can draw the attention of the people to his court by the maintenance of justice and once the people have confidence in a court they will not go to the police or to the attorneys . They will go to the chief's court, as they did in my court while I was still presiding officer . I don't know now what is the position. (Laughter ) In any event, I just wanted to advise the hon. members that in regard to sub-headmen you can place the Treasury in a very difficult position. For Example, Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa has nineteen sub-headmen in his administrative area. Now, he has appointed them at his will - he does not consult the Government. How can you call upon the Government to pay officers who have nothing to do with the Government as far as the appointment is concerned? I want to advise you, too, that if sub-headmen were appointed by the Government there would be a uniform system . We would appoint one or two sub-headmen for a location only to assist the headman, but that sub-headman would be responsible to the Government and at times disregard the instructions of the headman. Now, that was the position in the Glen Grey area
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : And the salaries of chiefs . (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: I don't want to deal with a motion that is still coming. Now , we are a responsible Government. We do these things without consulting you because we know that you never assist us in anything. We will first consult the responsible members onthe Government side , but we shall not do things because you point a revolver at the Government. As I say, when the time comes when the funds are available the Government in preparing its budget, will consider all essential services .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: So you sympathize with the motion? THE CHIEF MINISTER :
I am opposing the
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by the hon. the Chief Minister until we believe he was just giving a talk to pass the time . I stand up to support the motion by the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke for the increase of the headmen's stipends and that the Government should please help in paying the sub-headmen. It is quite evident that this motion arises from people who are sensible and who are sympathetic towards the people , because this is what you will find if you live in the administrative areas . The people who are employed in the actual work of the location are the headmen and sub-headmen. If there is a fight in the location the first person to come and stop that disturbance is the subheadman, and then he sits down and makes investigations as to the cause of the disturbance .
when they had what they called "board members " who were paid for their services . Now these people were so popular in their localities that they defied the headmen and paid no attention to them, and told the people not to pay attention to the headman of the location. As a result the Glen Grey district council requested the Government to remove these board members so that the headman should be in a position to appoint his own lieutenants .
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : A question, please , Mr. Chairman. I want you to explain what would be the difference , as you say you would introduce uniformity as far as sub-headmen are concerned, because even the chiefs in this House are not of the same number from all these regions . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Here is the difference : These chiefs represent their tribes . In the case of sub-headmen the headman merely says to them: You look after those people , whether they number 10 ; or , you look after those 12; you rule over those 5. The chiefs who have only one location under them do not receive the same pay as others , but we have no control over the sub-headmen - we don't even know they exist. In Dumalisile's area the sub-headmen may be 30; in Headman Madikizela's area there may be five and you now suggest that the Government should pay these sub-headmen whom you appoint as you wish. How would it be if the headman paid them because he has appointed them? (Interjections ) In any case , the sub-headmen are paid by the people because when they come across a beer-drink a can of beer is given to them. I am not satisfied with the position of sub-headmen being paid with beer but I would be pleased if the headman would take 50c. from his pay and pay the sub-headman , because the headmen are loafing and they tell people to go to such-andsuch a sub-headman to take these people to the office and so on, while the headman is sleeping next to the cattle kraal and then at the end of the month he goes to receive his pay. ( Laughter) As I have already said , the Government will consider the position of the headmen when it sees how much money there is , but the Government will not be dictated to by the twenty-five people in this House. In regard to sub-headmen I suggest that the tribal authorities should come together and decide what should be done about these people. Maybe the tribal authorities will even advise the headmen not to have too many sub-headmen so that it will be possible for them to be paid , then these people will be recognized . At present we do not even know they exist. Money spent by the Government is spent on services which come before this Assembly . Just now you will be asking the Government to pay the counsellors who guard you. (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, I have explained all this fully and I am certain that reasonable people have listened to what I have said. I think these twenty-five members across the floor have listened and taken what I have said to heart , and I hope they will withdraw the motion because reasonable people are going to oppose the motion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second the amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I shall be pleased if the seconder of this motion will tell the House who employs the sub-headmen and where he comes from . MR. KUTU: Before I reply to the question, it is the sub-headman who collects the people who have caused the disturbance and takes them to the headman, and it is the same sub-headman who gives evidence because he is the personwho made the investigation in his own court. After the headman has made his own inquiry into the disturbance the sub-headman makes a report as to his investigations. After the headman has heard the circumstances of the disturbance , when the matter is taken up by the tribal authority that sub-headman is still required in the tribal authority court to give evidence . If the case brought before the tribal court is a criminal matter it is taken to the magistrate's office and even there the sub-headman is required to give evidence. If the police , White or Black, have to go to an administrative area to investigate some offence and the headman is away, they ask for the sub-headman. The police know that the sub-headman was appointed by the headman to be his eyes during his absence. I am surprised today when the hon. the Chief Minister knows nothing about this , and yet at one time he was a headman. Even when he was hearing cases when he was still a chief at Qamata, he wanted the sub-headmen to come and give evidence at his inquiries . If you go into his office you will find amongst the records that evidence was given by a sub-headman. As far as we know, the headman is a government employee . Today we hear from the hon. the Chief Minister that that is not so. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I did not say so, I said he is a government officer but not a public servant. MR. KUTU: Just imagine these people being paid R10 a month - a man who works for the Even at dead of night they are Government ! woken up. Out of the R10 paid to him he uses R5 to buy a bag of mealies. He probably also has medical expenses to pay, clothing for his family, purchase of school books and payment of school fees at an institution for his children, and from this same amount he has to pay a certain fee when he is installed by a chief. From the same amount, before he is even paid the R10 , he has to buy a beast to be slaughtered
MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have listened to the speech made 307 .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR :
for the occasion and out of the same amount he has to buy a bottle of liquor for those people who accompany the chief who is to instal him. (Laughter) He has to be well -dressed on the day of his installation and by the time he is paid the R10 he has an account which far exceeds his stipend . Sir, the hon. the Minister of Finance should take pity and sympathize with the conditions experienced by these people whom he also visits at times and requires to see looking presentable . We expect the hon. the Minister of Finance , together with his Cabinet, to support this motion because the hon. Minister had already made a promise that the headmen's stipends would be increased. Some of the headmen are the relatives of the Minister of Finance. I am going to see what happens when vote is taken in connection with this motion, when some of the chiefs on the Government side will say by their vote that their relatives who are headmen and sub-headmen should not be given this money . (Laughter) We are going to hear from the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance when he is going to tell his paternal uncles who are headmen that he is not prepared to give them the money . He will be putting the headmen and their people at loggerheads when he tells them they are going to be taxed in order to pay the headmen. Let the hon. the Chief Minister know that we will report to the people that he , together with the chiefs who have relatives who are headmen, say they should not be paid this money, but in order that they should get an increment they should be taxed. We on this side of the House do not wish to see people and their relatives set at loggerheads because we know that people out in the districts have been made to suffer by drought and by paying for the erection of school buildings . (Interjections ) You have the money - you can go and fetch it from Pretoria. ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, we onthis side have our eyes and ears open to see what the people on the other side are going to do for their relatives who are in the districts .
I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the adoption of each clause I propose to make an explanatory note in order to enlighten members on the implications of the bill . I am happy that there are no amendments on the order paper and I hope that the same spirit which prevailed in the second reading of this important piece of legislation will continue . I will request hon. members to turn to the English text of the bill on page 11 (those who are able to read English) , or the Xhosa text on page 1 . On Clause 1 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Clause 1 contains the definitions and attention is specifically invited to the following sub-clauses which perhaps , unlike the remaining ones which are self- explanatory, require further elucidation. Sub-clause (i) " Bantu residential area" means any location (e.g. Ngangelizwe ) , Bantu village ( i.e. an area wherein Bantu shall be permitted to acquire the lease of lots for the erection thereon of houses or huts for their own occupation) or Bantu hostels. Sub-clause (xii) - the railway property which will be taxable includes refreshment rooms , railway institutes, dwelling houses and other property let to or occupied by any person as living quarters or for business or other private purposes . This clause merely deals with definitions and I don't think there is anything contentious about it. I move the adoption of clause 1. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I would ask the hon. the Chief Minister why we should use the word " Bantu " instead of "African" when we are now handling our own affairs , as we all desire to be called " Africans ".
CHIEF M. TANTSI: Why don't you answer the question asked by the hon . the Chief Minister? The Chief Minister wanted to know who installed those sub-headmen.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I don't think that is a pertinent question in relation to this bill . The hon. member may bring a motion on that if he wishes .
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. member, when he was not a chief but only a headman he had a sub-headman.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, a further question in regard to sub-clause (xii) – "railway property" . What does it actually mean, taking the Transkei as it is? Does it mean that we now have jurisdiction over some of the railway property in the Transkei ?
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 28th May , 1970 . THURSDAY, 28th MAY, 1970
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There are railway properties which are on land which belongs to the Transkei Government - for example , you take Ndabakazi , which is a railway station. That station is situated on land which belongs to the Transkei Government. Now, those properties are taxable under this bill. The same with Qamata station. Qamata station is situated on land which belongs to the Transkei Government and there are houses at that station which are occupied by White officials . Now in relation to
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEIAN IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TAXATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now convert itself into committee in order to deal with this bill.
308.
MR. GUZANA: business concern .
railway properties situated in the municipal areas which fall under the administration of the Department of Railways , we shall get a proclamation to deal with those properties .
But the Government is not a
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , but interest is calculated on the existing rates right through the country, that is , rates of interest, and right through the country there is no interest calculated at the rate of 6%% now, except with private individuals .
Clause 1 put and agreed to . On Clause 2
MR. GUZANA : 32%.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, in relation to clause 2 , a property tax is levied and payable at the same rate and to all intents and purposes on the same conditions as are provided for under the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance, 1935 (Ordinance No. 1 of 1935) , as amended by the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Amendment Act, 1969. The rate of interest payable by defaulters has , however, been increased from 62% to 72% and the due date will become 15th December instead of 15th July. Regional and tribal authority properties are also to be exempted. I move the adoption of clause 2 , Mr. Chairman.
The Land Bank?
That is
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am not sure about that. MR. GUZANA :
I am quite sure about it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In any event I think this clause about interest will make people pay the tax in time . That is the reason they MR. GUZANA : are in arrear - because they haven't got the money.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Isecond.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, the Black people have just been encouraged to buy properties and they are the lowest paid people in the country . I assume the law as it is affects everybody in the country. Could the five-eights of a cent not be reduced for the good of our people, because I assume that even properties bought in town are liable to taxation? Could we not reduce the rate?
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, in this clause, sub-section 2 (a) says that property tax shall be at the rate of five-eights of a cent for every rand . That seems to be rather a nice calculation, Mr. Chairman. How did you arrive at that as against any other figure?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: As I have explained , Mr. Chairman, that figure is the same figure which is being paid now under the Road Tax Ordinance . Well, you can calculate five-eights of a cent, but unfortunately I am very poor in arithmetic, although as a student I used to get 100%. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In view of the remarks which have been reasonably put forward by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher, supporting the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , I am moving an amendment to this sub- clause (3) , and instead of 72% put 62% where 72% appears .
Mr. Chairman, in MR. K.M. GUZANA: section 2 (3) , the interest rate on arrear tax seems to be rather high. 7 % seems to be exorIt would appear that that seems to be bitant. arbitrarily harsh on the man who owes the tax and one would like to know whether this interest is payable immediately after due date, or after That is, the three months after due date . interest is not calculated on the three months after due date , but as from the fourth month or what?
MR. GUZANA : We welcome that very much. Clause 2 , as amended, put and agreed to. On Clause 3 THE CHIEF MINISTER : I don't think there is any motivation with regard to clause 3 because it has been defined . Why don't you MR . R.S. MADIKIZELA: exempt the railways like the other bodies ? The tribal and other authorities are being exempted - why are the railways not being indulged in the same way?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The interest is calculated from the day following the expiration that is , of the said period of three months after the expiry of three months . MR. GUZANA :
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Before you reply to that, may I put another question so that you may reply to both. Mr. Chairman, I see section 3 in relation to what the hon. the Chief Minister said when this House was sitting as a committee of ways and means into this matter and in paragraph 7 of his address to the committee of ways and means it would appear that the tax here will be payable by the lessees . I do not know if this is related to railway property which is let or occupied by any person as living quarters. In view of the fact that the lessee pays a rental to the owner and the owner benefits
After due date?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes. MR. GUZANA : And will it be retrospective over the three months then? THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , as regards the rate of interest, this rate of interest of 6% ½% has been payable all along, but now all interest has risen everywhere . For example , the interest on overdrafts is now 82% and it is felt that 72% is reasonable .
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for occupation by employees employed in bona fide farming operations ; provided that where the valuation of any such building exceeds R1,000 such building shall be deemed not to be a beneficial improvement to the extent by which such valuation exceeds R1,000 . I hope that is clear , Mr. Chairman.
by reason of the fact that there is, shall I say , a remunerative occupation of his premises , shouldn't the owner of the property pay the tax rather than the lessee ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Won't you deal with that matter when we come to exemptions? MR. GUZANA : over.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , in regard to clause 4(1 ) (b) "land held in trust by any person for any tribe or community and which is communally occupied by members of such tribe or community. " Could the hon. Minister give us an example of such land in the Transkei ?
Very well , we shall hold it
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to reply to the hon. member for Ngqeleni . These properties have never been exempted from this tax and it will not be equitable to exempt them at this stage because they are occupied by the officials who are employed by the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, all tribal land belongs to the Government. Your own land , for example, belongs to the Government.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, when the hon. the Chief Minister gave an explanation in connection with these properties he mentioned Ndabakazi and Qamata as examples of railway properties in the Transkei . Are those stations situated in those areas exempt from the law? If I am not mistaken, are the White people occupying municipal properties exempt or do they pay this tax?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : I hope the chiefs note it belongs to the Government. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your own allotment belongs to the Government.
MR . ZIBI : I was thinking of land such as at Kayakulu near Rustenburg.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, this bill will not apply to White areas . That must be clear. It does not apply to White properties in these towns or the railway properties in the White towns, but a proclamation will be issued by the Department of Bantu Administration making all these properties taxable in terms of this Act. That is an agreement between us and the Department of Bantu Administration, that this Act will apply to the European areas.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , those lands are not the same as the lands in the Transkei. The tribe purchased a farm in the Transvaal and then settled on that farm .
Clause 4 put and agreed to . On Clause 5 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Coming to clause 5, this clause covers the property which is taxable despite the aforesaid exemptions . Subclauses (a) and (c) are self-explanatory, whilst in terms of sub-clause (b) provision is made that immovable property vested in a local
MR. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, why take this roundabout way? Is there any objection to a law made by Black people to govern the White people? What about the zoned areas for Africans? Are they going to wait until the proclamation has been issued?
authority and held under a lease (for example , municipal dwellings) will be subject to taxation. An example of these municipal dwellings is the houses which you find as you go through the town to Engcobo, at the end of the town on the right-hand side . Now, those houses are taxable in terms of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax . There is nothing new as far as they are concerned.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct. The laws that are made by the Transkei Government apply to the Transkei as defined in the Constitution Act, and those laws do not apply to the territories which do not fall under the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. Ncambedlana falls out of the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government .
Under the Transkei MR. K.M. GUZANA : Road Tax Ordinance was the tax paid by the lessee?
Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4
THE CHIEF MINISTER : position.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, clause 4 provides for the exemption of certain properties from the tax. Now, with the exception of sub-clause (1) (m ) this clause is self-explanatory and requires no explanation. The beneficial improvements referred to and exempted in subclause (1 )(m ) are those which increase the value of land for bona fide farming purposes and includes (a) structural works, dipping tanks , storage tanks , walls , silos and kraals , if permanently constructed of stone , brick or concrete; (b) irrigation works , dams , boreholes , wells , permanent fences , reclamation works , subsoil drainage , plantations , vineyards and orchards ; and (c) any residential building erected
Yes , that was the
MR. GUZANA : Why is it so? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It should be noted that in all cases the tax is payable by the lessee and not by the owners of the property concerned . That is nothing new, you see . It was a provision which was in the proclamation. MR. GUZANA : Yes , but it is new to us and we want motivation for that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: 310.
In terms of sub-
clause (d) land, together with any buildings or structures thereon held or occupied for trading purposes under quitrent title issued in terms of Proclamation No. 11 of 1922 (that is , the occupation and granting of land for trading and tradesmen's purposes ) and Proclamation No. 96 of 1958 (the proclamation which governs grants of surveyed trading sites to Bantu persons under quitrent title) or under certificate of occupation, permit or permission granted in terms of Proclamation No. 174 of 1921 (that is , the proclamation governing location regulations for surveyed districts in the Transkeian Territories ) , No. 11 of 1922 which deals with the occupation and granting of land for trading and business purposes , Proclamation No. 170 of 1922 dealing with location regulations in the Xalanga district, No. 26 of 1936 (Location regulations in unsurveyed districts - Eastern Pondoland , Emboland, all those unsurveyed districts across the Umtata River and Kentani , Willowvale , Mqanduli , Elliotdale and Cofimvaba) , Proclamation No. 293 of 1962 governing regulations for the administration and control of townships in Bantu areas (i.e. rural townships like Ibisi ) or any other law will be subject to taxation. Now, the reference in sub-clause (e) is to buildings used for business (other than residences) on sites granted under Proclamation No. 244 of 1934 (i.e. Trading by Bantu in the Transkeian Territories - traders ' , bakers ' , butchers ' sites) whilst subclause (f) ensures that trading and tradesmen's sites used for residential purposes will also be subject to taxation. Now, such traders will be taxed throughout regardless of the sites they occupy for their businesses . I move that clause 5 be adopted . MR. K.M. GUZANA : lessee paying?
the lessee , so that the rights of the owner of the property are endangered by reason of the negligence of the lessee who could not care less what happens to the property. After all , the owner of the property can put up his rental in order to cover what he has to pay in terms of this law. In my view, therefore , I think the lessor should pay the property tax and he can recover it from the lessee by putting up the rent. This guarantees ownership ofthe property to the owner lest it be attached in execution by reason of the negligence of the lessee who does not bother to pay the property tax. There is this other consequence · if the Government seeks to execute against the property the owner of the property can except and claim on the grounds that he is not liable for this road tax and the lessee may well have absconded to Zambia in the meantime; yet if the owner ofthe property is liable for this property tax he cannot take away his immovable property, and the Government can levy execution on that immovable property and recover this property tax. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I want to remove any doubt on this matter , or any confusion that the immovable property will be endangered . When we come to clause 9 we will find the provisions with regard to the executions in cases where there are defaulters in payment of this tax. It is only the movable property belonging to the lessee which will be executed . Executions can only be made in terms of this law, not under common law or in terms of any other law, so the question of the property being endangered does not come into it at all. It will not be affected. But, as I explained , it would not be fair for the owner of the property to pay this tax whilst the lessee is enjoying all the comfort and probably does not pay an In many exorbitant rental for the building.
The question of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: When it comes to that, the person who really enjoys the usufruct is the lessee. To all intents and purposes he is the person who enjoys the comfort and the occupation of the house. Now, the owner has to pay all the rates for this house and surely he is entitled to a rental for all the expenses that he has to incur. The two don't go together - the property tax and the rental that has to be paid to the owner of the building. Now, if the owner of the house , for example , say the Leader of the Opposition had property here in town - he does not derive very much from the rental when you consider the expenses he has to incur towards paying for the rates of that property. Why should this owner be saddled with the property tax whilst the comfort is enjoyed by the person who is paying rental to the owner ?
cases the owners of property recover very little from the rental paid when it is considered they have to pay rates to the municipality and so on.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, it seems to be rather a circuitous way of getting this tax paid to the Government and placing the liability for this property tax on the lessee seems to jeopardise or to risk the ownership of the • property in this way: The lessee neglects to pay the property tax; three months after due date interest accrues at the rate of 6%% and the next year's property tax becomes due and the lessee ignores this tax. The Government is going to levy against the property, not against
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that the property does not belong to this person and therefore it cannot be attached because it does not belong to him.
MR. GUZANA: There is nothing in clause 9 which exempts the immovable property. THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , but executions can only be made in terms of this law. Section 9 specifically says that movable property will be attached and the immovable property cannot be attached unless it is specifically provided for under this law. MR. GUZANA : Are you quite certain about that? Is there provision for that? Because when I read section 9 it does not seem to exempt immovable property.
MR. GUZANA : perty.
But it is levied on the pro-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , but it does not belong to him. How can the property be attached for his debts ?
311.
MR. GUZANA: Let us accept the fact that the liability rests on the lessee , but in order to determine his liability the property belonging to the lessor must be valued . What will be the position in the event of the lessee having no movable property? Is it just taken as one of those things - just too bad ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: nulla bona return .
is a certain period (I think it is nine or twelve months) which is provided in this bill and only if a person occupies a house for that period shall he pay the tax. MR. K.M. GUZANA: The Government will accept the valuation of the Valuation Court which gives the valuation for the determination of the municipal rates , I take it? Mr. Chairman, if the Valuation Court has placed a certain valuation on a property will the Government accept that and not seek another valuator?
It will be another
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , why should this law depart from the usual procedure of A person municipalities in the assessment? who is liable for rates is the owner of the property. If the lessee occupies this property for three months and then goes away, how is this amount to be assessed? Is it not perhaps because we have to tax railway property which belongs to the White people that there is this difficulty?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That will be accepted. MR. H.H. ZIBI: Just a question, Mr. Chairman, in regard to sub-clause 5(c). Is it the implication that any tribal and/or regional authority can perhaps buy a trading station and trade for the good of the tribal authority? I just want to know that.
MR. N. JAFTA: I will ask the hon. the Chief Minister to be patient in this matter because it is a matter which affects the people. In the administrative areas there are shops owned by Black people and some of these shops occupy sites under certificate of occupation. Others are on sites owned by other people and some are just buildings of no value. Now I understand that this will also affect shops so situated in the administrative area , so how are valuations to be arrived at? Will these flats which have been built with mud, and rondavels be valued? In one kraal there may be six rondavels - are
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, there is nothing to stop a regional or tribal authority from applying for a licence to trade , but as a matter of policy my Government has decided not to grant licences to those bodies as we feel they are administrative bodies. It would be unfair competition for these bodies to compete with the private sector, and in any event it is not fair for an administrative body to enter trade. Now as an example of property which would be taxable , the regional authority of Fingoland owns land which formerly belonged to the United Transkeian Territories General Council and on that land there are many people who occupy buildings . They allow them to put up their own houses and they derive rental from these persons . Now, that property will have to be taxable . Again, there is property on the private farm of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland which, if that property were to be purchased by the Government from the paramount chief for occupation by Transkeian citizens and handed over to the regional authoThose are rity, would have to be taxable . instances of immovable property which belongs to a tribe and that would be taxable under this law.
they going to be calculated individually and valued? We would like an explanation on these points. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think in terms of this bill the property that will be taxed will exceed in value R1,000 , so your dilapidated building, if it is below this R1,000 in value, will not be taxed . Even your huts, however many they may be , will not reach that figure . Now, when it comes to a reply to the hon. member for Umtata, Mr. Mnyani , I think I fully replied to this question when it was posed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Most of the land in the Transkei is owned by the Transkei Government and these properties which will be taxed are on government land- that is , businesses for example , and seaside resorts where you have many Republican people having properties along the coast of the Transkei . These cottages might exceed R1,000 in value . Now, in future we are looking forward to a time when industrialists on an agency basis will put up industries in the Transkei, and these have got to be taxed in terms of this law. With regard to the question of dealing with this law according to the assessment rates of a town, that would not suit the legal position. As I said when replying to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, the owners have to pay these rates to the Municipal Council. Now, it would be unfair to load them with the payment of this property tax while , on the other hand, they may not even recover the rentals owed by a crook who occupies the house. As you contended , he might occupy the house for three months and then vacate it. He is not liable to payment of this tax if he does that. There
Clause 5 put and agreed to. On Clause 6 Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : clause 6 requires no explanation and merely provides for property tax to be calculated and levied on the valuation of such property appearing in the valuation roll pending the outcome of appeals that may have been lodged for the value to be increased or decreased , when the necessary adjustments may be effected. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, am I correct in holding that if there are any arrears they will be regarded as due from the date the judgment is given and that there will be a three months ' exemption and interest will then be I don't calculated, after the three months ? know if I make myself clear , Sir. On review proceedings it appears that the property should 312 .
On Clause 8
have been levied for an amount more than was levied in terms of the valuation roll . Now, what is in excess will be regarded as property tax in arrear . What I would like to know is : Will that arrear tax be said to be due on the day the review proceedings may reach a final judgment, and that there will be three months ' grace from that day, after which the arrears will be subject to the interest rate of 6%%?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In terms of section 40 (1 ) of the Valuation Ordinance the Secretary may at any time cause an interim valuation to be made in order to value the following immovable property: - (a) immovable property omitted from the last general valuation; (b) any building which has been erected or reconstructed or to which any addition or alteration has been made , or which has been partially destroyed or demolished , or any improvement whatsoever; (c) immovable property improved or depreciated in value by reason of the operation of a town-planning scheme or any municipal or public work or undertaking or the proclamation of a group area; (d) land the value whereof has materially depreciated through flood , fire or other disaster; (e) immovable property materially increased or decreased in value through any other cause particular to such property; (f) immovable property added to a local authority area by reason of the boundaries of such area having been extended . The Minister may grant a proportionate rebate on such property mentioned above which was reduced in value . The Minister may grant such proportionate rebate on the property tax paid or payable as he may deem equitable if - (a) at any time after the valuation roll has been finally adopted by the valuation court it is found that any error has occurred and such error may after due enquiry be rectified by the Secretary or by an interim valuation; (b) the valuation of a building is removed from the valuation roll by reason of the fact that such building has been totally demolished or destroyed. I move that clause 8 be adopted .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , the interest to be paid will be the interest from the period of three months after the expiration date of payment, not after the judgment. You see, when you have to appeal against the valuation of a property you have got to pay the money which is claimed from you and then you will be refunded the balance if you succeed on appeal. MR. GUZANA : There is the possibility of under-payment. You may have paid R20 and on review proceedings it is found you should have paid R30. I want to know whether there will be.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: calcualted on R30.
The interest will be
MR. GUZANA: From what date? From the three THE CHIEF MINISTER: months after the expiry date , not from the date of judgment. I move the adoption of this clause . Clause 6 put and agreed to. On Clause 7
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, in terms of this clause the Minister is clothed with the discretion to exercise his power....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, property which could fall in the category referred to in this clause is , for example, where only a portion of a building is occupied for trading purposes , whilst the value of the property as a whole appears on the valuation roll . The valuation of sixteen times the annual rental for a property where no value has been placed thereon by the Secretary is based on a rental allowing a return of 64% on capital outlay, which is considered to be equitable . I move the adoption of clause 7 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And to grant rebates - say so. MR. MADIKIZELA : The Minister is not an impersonal being; he is human with the prejudices and peculiarities and passions peculiar to his nature , and , actuated by feelings of spite towards the owner, he might easily withhold the exercise of this power to grant a rebate , and that to the detriment of the owner. Why not make it obligatory on the Minister to exercise this power of rebate , especially in the circumstances set out in the clause?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : May we have further motivation on this clause , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER: For example , where the rental of a house is R100 (that is , you pay R100 as rental to the owner of the house) , now the value of that house is R1,600 - that is , sixteen times R100 . That is where no value has been fixed on the property by the Secretary and there is no valuation to go on. OPPOSITION MEMBER: a year?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think the public as a whole , irrespective of political allegiance or affinity, has confidence in the Government. Ministers never go into these matters on their own. These matters are first of all investigated by the officials of the department and the Ministers act on the recommendations of the department, unless they have evidence that if a recommendation is carried out the safety of the State will be endangered. I am just discussing the position of the Ministers . So you must have implicit faith in ministerial judgment. Normally they act on the recommendations that come from the department, and it is very rare that they have to turn down such recommendations . If a Minister does not pay
R100 a month, or
THE CHIEF MINISTER: R100 per annum. Now, the value of the property would be R1,600 in that case , and that is how the valuation will be determined.
Clause 7 put and agreed to. 313.
attention to the recommendations of the department the matter is usually taken up with the Cabinet as a whole because the Cabinet members have joint responsibility. You cannot tie up a Minister and say he must be bound to grant this proportionate rebate . He must use his discretion. That has been the legal terminology since we have had the democratic system in South Africa .
Clause 9 put and agreed to. On Clause 10 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , this clause empowers the Secretary to grant partial or total exemption from payment of property tax in those cases where he is satisfied that the financial position of the persons concerned is such that they cannot afford to pay the tax. I have in mind some of the property owners in farmers who could be termed men Xalanga of straw, although they own those farms . I move the adoption of this clause.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : That would mean that the poor owner cannot sue the Minister for that rebate, that is the trouble. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I am just worrying about the time factor . The valuation is carried out and thereafter cracks appear in the building or any process of depreciation takes Has the owner to wait until the next place. valuation is made , or must he take the initiative to inform the Minister that these cracks have
Clause 10 put and agreed to. On Clause 11 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Clause 11 is selfexplanatory, Mr. Chairman . Its aim is to facilitate the administration of the Act. I need not comment any further.
appeared? THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no specific time for the application of rebates . The owner can initiate the application at any time when he finds that the value of the building has depreciated.
Clause 11 put and agreed to. On Clause 12 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Clause 12 is also self-explanatory and there is no need for motivation. I move the adoption.
Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9 Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER: notwithstanding the provisions of sub- clauses (1 ) and (2 ) the Secretary may, by notice in the official Gazette , declare that whenever any amount of property tax is in arrear and interest thereon is payable , the magistrate of the district in which such taxpayer ordinarily resides may, for the purpose of recovering such amount, issue a warrant of execution against the movable property of such taxpayer whereupon such warrant shall be executed by a person appointed by such magistrate as if it were issued pursuant to a judgment of a magistrate's court, except that it shall not be necessary to serve a copy of such warrant upon the execution debtor . He may also declare the regulations prescribing fees and costs payable in respect of the execution of such warrant applicable in respect of any property tax or interest whereon payable by any property owner. Under the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance the Government had to resort to litigation to recover outstanding tax. For this purpose lawyers had to be appointed . MR. GUZANA : that? ( Laughter )
MR. K.M. GUZANA : limited to the R50?
I take it we will be
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes .
Clause 12 put and agreed to. On Clause 13 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I don't think there is any need for motivating clause 13 but I just want to say that the Director of Valuations is at present still assisting in administering the Valuation Ordinance on a costI move the adoption of this recovery basis . section.
Clause 13 put and agreed to. On Clause 14 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Clause 14 provides for the collection of Transkeian Territories Road Tax which may be outstanding and payable in respect of any financial year prior to the commencement of this Act. I move the adoption of this section.
And what was wrong with
MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I did have a question on this but I thought I would put it after lunch.
Clause 14 put and agreed to.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 .
On Clause 15 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the Transkeian Immovable Property Taxation Act , 1970 , will be deemed to have come into operation on the 1st day of April, 1970 , which is also the date with effect from which the Cape Provincial Council is to repeal the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance , 1935. I understand that all the properties have been valued and that
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the committee stage of the Transkeian Immovable Property Taxation Bill was resumed. 314.
the following definitions :(v) "fixed date" means that the provision of a fixed date is necessary in order to ensure that no conflict or vacuum occurs between the date of repeal or amendment of existing legislation and the date of operation of the new enabling Act. Sub -section (xii) " Services of the Republic " refers to the South African Permanent Force, the South African Police Force and the Republican Prison Service . I move the adoption.
they will be taxable from 1st April, this year. I move the adoption of this clause . Clause 15 put and agreed to . Schedule THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, coming to the schedule to the Act, in terms of section 42(1 ) of the Valuation Ordinance , 1944 (Ordinance No. 26 of 1944) it shall be lawful for the Administrator , after consultation with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, to direct that no valuation shall be made of immovable property in any rural Bantu location set apart for the occupation of Bantu in any area in which the law relating to Divisional Councils is not in operation. This section is however not applicable to immovable property held by traders under title or under certificates of occupation; whilst, in terms of sub-section (2) the Administrator may, after consultation with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, direct that no valuation shall be made of immovable property in a location as defined by section 1 of the Natives Urban Areas Consolidation Act, 1945 (Act No. 25 of 1945). The said section has now become obsolete and should therefore be repealed in order that effect can be given to the measures contemplated in this bill. Section 103 of the Valuation Ordinance and section 31 of the Roads Ordinance , 1949 , provide for amendments to the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance which will be repealed in toto. The said sections therefore serve no further purpose and should be repealed . I move the adoption of the schedule to this Act.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , are there no actuaries in South Africa? THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: No.
Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Clause 2 (a) provides for the name of the Pension Fund to be changed from the rather cumbersome title "Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund " to simply the " Transkeian Government Service Pension Fund " . (b) and (c) - both these sub-sections are protective , in the first instance by ensuring that members will continue to honour their obligations to the pension fund , and in the second instance by securing to members such benefits as have accrued to them as at the fixed date. Subsection (d) is clear , Mr. Chairman, and I move the adoption of clause 2 . MR. H.H. ZIBI : I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what happens to these employees who were in the old section entitled to a gratuity. Will they be able to get a pension under this new scheme ?
Schedule put and agreed to . Long title and whole bill , as amended , put and agreed to .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: That will be made clear when the regulations are published.
House Resumed
MR. K.M. GUZANA: What is the intention? Is it intended that it should be so , or otherwise ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the bill to impose a tax on immovable property situated within the Transkei has been adopted with one amendment by this committee.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: It is a provision, yes, that should it be found necessary... You see, it gives an opening that should it be found necessary it provides that no-one shall forfeit any privileges at all . In other words it is enabling .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The third reading of the bill will take place on Tuesday, the 2nd day of June, 1970 .
MR. ZIBI : Perhaps there is a provision somewhere where these classes of worker are prescribed so that we know what sort of employees they are who are entitled to this pension fund?
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House converts itself into committee.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, this is not the principal Act. It is an amendment of the principal Act and therefore in the principal Act there should have been provision for payment of a gratuity, otherwise it should not have been termed the " Government Service Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund " without having a provision in the principal Act, but simply to call it the " Transkei Government Service Pension Fund " does not mean to say that the provisions of the main Act will be affected.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to.
House in Committee On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: M. Chairman, before moving section 1 I wish to explain
315.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: They are not covered under this bill, Mr. Chairman.
Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3
Clause 3 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: This whole section prescribes the nature of the regulations which may be made under the Act. Most of these are self-explanatory , with the exception of the following:- Sub-section 2 (a ) - the present pension fund provides for the admission of public service personnel , teachers and members ofthe Transkei Police Force. Sub-section 2 (d) - at present members of the public service in prescribed posts can include an immediately preceding period of continuous temporary employment in their pensionable service , and teachers can in certain circumstances date their pensionable service back to 1st April , 1966 , provided that in both instances the necessary arrear contributions are paid. Sub-sections 2 (i ), (j ) and (k) provide for the adjustment of contributions and of membership in cases where contributors , as a result of transfer or change of employment, are required to become members of another pension fund. This is an entirely new provision in Transkeian pensions legislation and will be of great benefit to contributors in that they will be assured of unbroken pensionable service, irrespective of any change of place or capacity in which they are required to serve from time to time. Sub-section 2(m) provides more for a possible contigency than for any existing need, and is therefore indicative of the comprehensiveness of the bill and the foresight embodied in it. With that explanation I move the adoption of clause 3.
On Clause 4 THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the whole of this section deals with retiring ages. Sub-section (2) provides, with certain exceptions , for a uniform retiring age of 60 years in respect of all classes of contributors , male and female. The exceptions to the uniform retiring age consist of those contributors who, by virtue of entrenched provisions in existing legislation, have the right to retire at an age in excess of 60 years . These are provided for in the following sub- sections :(a) - Officers or employees who became members of the pension fund on or before 10th December, 1963, have the right to retire at the age of 63 years . This group consists almost entirely of personnel who formerly served under the Transkeian Territorial Authority. Sub-section 3(b) Officers or employees who were transferred from the Republican Government Service to the Transkeian Government Service have the right to retire at the age of 65 years . I move the adoption. MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, at the moment I am not able to lay hands on the Act which the hon. Minister referred to , dealing with the teachers . I thought the retiring age for lady teachers was 55. Iam subject to correction. Are they now retiring at the age of 60? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes .
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister has made mention of teachers in the course of his comments. I would like to know if the teachers are also encompassed in the intentions of this bill.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : What about the teachers who joined thinking they would retire at 55 ? What is the position now? Will they be compelled to serve willy-nilly till the age of 60, or will they have the option of retiring at 55 ?
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: They are, Mr. Chairman. There is also Act No. 9 of 1966 , but they are included here.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: We know of no such teachers , Mr. Chairman . It is 60 years , as I told you.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, section 3(3) - may I know what circumstances would necessitate the drafting or the making of regulations to differ in respect of persons in the service belonging to different classes or categories? Could I get an example of a situation which would necessitate different regulations being applicable ?
MR . ZIBI : The position is that some of these teachers were under the Republican Gogovernment and transferred to the Transkei Government. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Iunderstand if they wish to retire at 55 they can, but should they wish to retire at 60 they can make application.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : The difference lies with those who contribute and those Those who do not conwho do not contribute.
Clause 4 put and agreed to.
tribute get a gratuity and those who do contribute get an annuity.
On Clause 5 MR. H.H. ZIBI: In the light of the explanation, Mr. Chairman, what is the position of members of this Assembly? I am worried about the chiefs who have served for a lifetime .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: The whole section is self-explanatory. I will not give any motivation there. I move the adoption.
Clause 5 put and agreed to.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They don't come into this . Bring a resolution .
On Clause 6 MR. ZIBI : annuity.
I am thinking in terms of an THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR:
316 .
This whole
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the position is as follows : When a man has been
section is mainly self-explanatory. Of special note is the fact that a contributor who is placed in the circumstances mentioned can be assured
convicted to imprisonment and the department is ready and in a position to pay his pension, that can be done while he is in prison . There is nothing to stop the department from doing that, but if there is the option of a fine then he must find the money to pay the fine.
of receiving such moneys as remain payable to him after all his obligations to the Government and the pension fund have been met. Clause 6 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA: From where?
On Clause 7 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Anywhere . His dependants can always find the money. They run around to try to get the money to pay the fine for him.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, this clause is also self- explanatory. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Stop this self-explanatory business . Explain the section.
MR. GUZANA: No , Mr. Chairman, it is said that if the annuitant is sentenced to a term of imprisonment exceeding twelve months without the option of a fine , payment of the annuity to him shall be discontinued.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I cannot explain any further than possible. I move the adoption .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: If the annuitant is imprisoned without the option of a fine .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if the annuitant continues to suffer a disability which has resulted in his benefits being paid to persons other than himself and should die still under that disability , will the amount that has been held back be paid into his estate ? THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Chairman.
MR. GUZANA : Therefore if he is compelled to serve in gaol payment of the annuity is discontinued. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Yes .
Yes , Mr.
MR. GUZANA: Right, then if he is sentenced to imprisonment with the option of a fine and he hasn't the money....
MR. GUZANA: What would be the procedure to be followed in the event of a pensioner being committed to prison for a period oftwelve months or more ? What should his dependants do? Do they apply on their own or does the pensioner who is in prison make the application on their behalf? Before you reply to that, why should the condition be without the option of a fine ? If he goes to prison without the option of a fine , or with the option of a fine for that matter , if he cannot pay it means he goes to prison and he is in prison for more than twelve months . Most people with the option of a fine cannot exercise that option because they have not got the money. Why shouldn't it just be " sentenced to a term of imprisonment for a period exceeding twelve months " ? We would not ask you these questions if you were not too lazy to motivate.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: If it exceeds twelve months his annuity will not be discontinued . It will continue to be paid even when he is in gaol. Mr. Chairman, MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : where it says that the Secretary shall cause the annuity or a portion thereof to be paid can you make us clear about that? Why should it be a portion? THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Well , that is actually to safeguard him and his dependants for that matter , because when he comes out he will find he will still have something to rely on and that will be paid to him. MR. R.S. MADIKIZ ELA: going to be paid the full
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: With regard to the hon. member's first question the department has to be informed somehow, so it could be the annuitant who is in prison who informs the department, or his dependants or anybody.
So he is never amount in gaol?
THE MINISTER: No.
MR. GUZANA : It can be , because you say the Secretary shall cause the full amount or a portion thereof.
MR. GUZANA : And if notification is after three months the payment would be retrospective?
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Yes , he has discretion to do that.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Yes . Your second question I understand to mean that if the annuitant is to pay a fine it means he will not be in prison.
MR. GUZANA: In sub- section (3 ) , this is the sort of provision which upsets me every time I come up against it. It is similar to that provision which relates to compensation for pneumoconiosis or compensation for accident because it gives the Secretary power , if satisfied, to pay the money not to the pensioner but to some person other than the pensioner , or portions thereof.
MR. GUZANA : Suppose he cannot afford to pay the fine and he has to go to prison?
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: It is suggested that the pension is paid to him in prison.
317.
moving the schedule to the bill, I should explain that this indicated the extent to which certain existing legislation is to be repealed or amended, and contains the actual amendments now proposed in terms of the bill. Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 contains the rules governing the Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund, together with its three amending proclamations , and is to be repealed in its entirety. Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 - the amendments to this proclamation are necessary in order to bring certain provisions thereof, relating to the Government Service , into line with the corresponding provisions of the present bill, especially in so far as retiring ages are concerned. The exclusion of members of the Transkeian Police from the provisions of section 15 is necessary because that force will soon be subject to its own service regulations which are at present in the process of being framed. The Transkei Education Act, 1966 (Act No. 9 of 1966) - both the repeal of sub- section (3) of section 11 and the amendment of section 13 are necessary in order to bring the relative provisions of the Act into line with the corresponding provisions of the present bill. I move the adoption of the schedule.
Why shouldn't the man get the money that is due to him ? Is this old man going to be regarded as a baby all the time? THE CHIEF MINISTER: unsound mind? MR. GUZANA : appoint a curator.
Suppose he is of
Well, that is clear - you
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: As a matter of fact, that is what this section is about. It is only likely to be used if the pensioner is of unsound mind and is or is not admitted to a mental hospital .
Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 MR. K.M. GUZANA: To what officers could these powers be delegated? We fear the delegation to officers below a certain grade . THE CHIEF MINISTER: secretary .
To the assistant
MR. GUZANA: Not below that?
Schedule put and agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: done.
It is not usually
The whole bill and the long title put and agreed to.
Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9
House Resumed
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I feel I cannot add anything more than what is contained here.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the bill to provide for pensions or other financial benefits for persons in the service of the Government of the Transkei or their dependants and to provide for other incidental matters has been accepted by this committee without amendment.
MR. H.H. ZIBI: motivation.
Mr. Chairman, we ask for
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Which part do you actually find difficult there ? "No legal proceedings of any nature shall be brought against the Government..." Is that what it is? It does not mean to say that proceedings will not be brought at all. It says " before the expiry of a period of twelve months " .
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: The third reading will be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman , or so soon thereafter . TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT ACT : SECOND READING THE CHIEF MINISTER: Honourable members ,
Clause 9 put and agreed to.
Mr. Chairman and
On Clause 10 THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: This section will be fully explained in the notes relating to the Schedule to the bill , but it must be mentioned at this stage that the provisions referred to in sub-section (2) all relate to the payment of contributions , current and arrear, in relation to the age of the contributor and the date from which he is permitted to contribute to the fund. I move the adoption of this section.
Clause 10 put and agreed to. Clause 11 put and agreed to. Schedule
THE
MINISTER
OF
INTERIOR:
Before
1 . The proposed amendment of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 i.e. the statutory provision governing the conditions of service of officers and employees in the Transkeian Government Service, is designed to permit of the permanent appointment, at the discretion of the Public Service Commission , of a Transkeian Citizen who has not passed the additional official language of the Transkei - Xhosa - at an examination which has been prescribed as a requirement for appointment to a post on the fixed establishment of the service but who is nevertheless a fluent Xhosa linguist. The measure will be of particular interest to Transkeians who have passed Sesotho or Zulu at their school - leaving examinations and to others who attended schools in the Republic and passed only English and Afrikaans at such examinations .
318 .
9. Mr. Chairman , I now move that the Bill be read a second time .
2 . In terms of Section 6 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , the official languages of the Transkei are those of the Republic of South Africa, namely English and Afrikaans , with Xhosa recognised as an additional official language and Sesotho permitted to be used for governmental , legislative , judicial and administrative purposes and such other official purposes as the Cabinet may determine by notice in the Gazette.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Isecond. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when this bill was tabled I was rather taken aback to find that the Minister responsible for this bill appeared not to have done any homework but with this explanation I think it is quite fair and just that such an amending Act should be brought before this House . As he has explained, many people may speak Xhosa fluently without necessarily carrying an examination certificate and the door should not be closed to them for appointment to the fixed establishment of the service . I take it that when such people are appointed to the fixed establishment certain oral examinations will be conducted because , whilst a person may be born a Xhosa , he may not be proficient in speaking the language. We get people who are detribalized , like my opposition across from me , who will speak a mixture of Xhosa , Zulu , English and Afrikaans and what have you - what is commonly called " Fanagalo ". (Laughter ) Will departmental inspectors be charged with this responsibility of assuring themselves that the men who do not carry this certificate are able to express themselves fluently in the Xhosa language? Since this seeks to open the door to people without a certificate in Xhosa or Sesuto this side of the House welcomes this bill .
3. The proviso to Section 12 ( 1 ) of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 stipulates that no person shall be appointed to a post on the fixed establishment unless he has passed in one of the official languages (that is , English or Afrikaans) and in the additional official language (that is , Xhosa) or languages at an examination prescribed or directed by the Public Service Commission. 4. Honourable will accordingly members understand that a person who has passed in English and/or Afrikaans at an examination prescribed by the Commission as the minimum qualification for a specific post on the fixed establishment of the Government Service but not in Xhosa cannot be considered for permanent appointment to such post. In other words , Mr. Chairman, a Transkeian citizen who has passed , for instance , in Zulu at a prescribed examination away from the Transkei , in Natal , and who otherwise complies with all appointment requirements , is debarred from permanent appointment. As things stand, the same actually applies to Sesotho but, since that language is accorded a certain special status under the Constitution, the Commission has , in practice , always accepted educational certificates showing Sesotho as a passed subject as complying with the proviso quoted earlier. 5. A Transkeian citizen who has passed no Bantu language at all , is , notwithstanding fluency in Xhosa , at present also debarred from permanent appointment. This has , in fact, happened in a number of instances where the persons concerned attended school outside the borders of the Transkei . 6. I am confident that the House will agree that the doors of the Government Service should not be closed to Transkeian citizens finding themselves in the circumstances described in the preceding paragraphs . 7. The problem can easily be overcome simply by deleting the proviso to Section 12 ( 1 ) of This will Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963. bestow upon the Public Service Commission the necessary discretion to permit of the appointment of a Transkeian citizen to a post on the fixed establishment of the Government Service who, whilst a fluent Xhosa linguist, has not passed in that language at the examination prescribed as the minimum educational requirement for the post in which he is to be absorbed . 8. Mr. Chairman, this , in brief, is the object of the proposed legislation , which , it is my hope, the House will not deem to be contentious and which will, therefore , also receive the support of the Opposition.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear , hear.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the observations put forward by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in connection with oral tests for applicants to the Public Service of the Transkei , I am opposed to that because these children are children of either Xhosas or Sothos who are in the big towns. They speak either Xhosa or Sesuto at their homes but because there is no Xhosa school in the area they are at a disadvantage and take either Zulu or Tswana. I have in mind a place like Potchefstroom where the Bantu authority (they call it the Bantu Council of the location of Potchefstroom) is adamant that every person who is in that location must be a Tswana and all the Xhosas cannot have schools , even though they The same applies warrant having a school . to the Sesuto- speaking people . Now, those children speak Sesuto at their homes fluently but they are at a disadvantage in that there are no schools available to them. In any event, Tswana and Sesuto are related languages . The same applies to Xhosa and Zulu . I do not find any reason why these children should not be employed outright without having to undergo a test if they have a certificate , as they normally have . They usually have a certificate in Sesuto or Tswana or Zulu. Now, this is the trouble which Most of them , the children of Maluti find: because there was no high school for a long time in Matatiele , had to go to Natal in order to pass matric , and they were compelled to have Zulu as a second language. MR. GUZANA : 319 .
I am not objecting to that.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA: No, you get people in Kimberly who cannot speak Xhosa.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, it is the test I am objecting to - that they should have an oral test.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : If a child is born of a mother who is not a Xhosa speaker and the father has died , is it not possible that the child might speak the language of the mother?
MR . GUZANA : My submission is : How are you going to know they are fluent in Xhosa?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, I have come across such children and they speak the language of the father and the mother. It is immaterial whether the father is a Sotho and the mother a Xhosa, they speak the language of the father at times. For example, if you go to Mount Frere you meet the attorney Moshesh and his wife , and children speak Xhosa well and they speak Sesuto as well. I am against putting these people to the expenses they will have to incur in order to come from the towns to be examined .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that they are fluent in the second official language which we must recognize - that is , Zulu or Sesuto or Tswana. MR . R.S. MADIKIZELA : Have you a fear that they might not pass an oral test? THE CHIEF MINISTER: a cumbersome procedure?
No , why have such
MR. GUZANA: It is just a point to be cleared . There is no difficulty about it. We are speaking about fluency in Xhosa . Now, how are you going to know that this applicant is fluent in Xhosa ? He may have been attending a Tswana or Sotho school in Potchefstroom and the home language used has been Tswana or Sesuto . He applies to the Public Service Commission in the Transkei for a job here . Now you say that if a person is fluent in Xhosa then the fact that he has not got a certificate in Xhosa should not debar him from joining the fixed establishment. We welcome that wholeheartedly. The question is : How are you going to determine that he is fluent in Xhosa?
MR. GUZANA: Don't say they must be fluent then, just say they must be of Xhosa or Sotho origin. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , but normally they are fluent. There are very few exceptions . CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman, I would request the hon. the Chief Minister towithdraw the word "fluent" because even the children in school today are not fluent. They are taught in many languages , even Afrikaans and that causes some difficulty. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not provided . in the bill so there is nothing to withdraw. I just used that in my address. Imove the second reading of this bill.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not a matter of determining fluency in the language . Achild born of parents who are Xhosa must speak that language and I have never found any child of a Xhosa who is not fluent in the language of his parents . I have gone right through the Republic . Hardly any of them cannot speak the language of the parents . Now, it is not necessary for a child from Johannesburg to come to the Transkei for a test in order to be employed . Why go to that test?
Agreed to.
The bill was read a second time . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The committee stage will be on the 2nd day of June , 1970 , Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
MR. GUZANA : Let us say the qualification is that he has passed the matric examination. Let us not say a child who is fluent, because we take it from your comments .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 29th May , 1970 . FRIDAY , 29th MAY, 1970
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the normal position is that they are all fluent in Xhosa. They speak the language very well. In any event, they are not going to be employed as interpreters or translators , but I don't think we must put any difficulty in their way.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL THIRD READING
MR. GUZANA : It is not a difficulty , it is what you say. You want them fluent.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am still not ready because I am still awaiting copies of the bill in the three languages . It will have to be next week.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, but it is not necessary for them to be linguists. THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : What you want to say is that they must be either of Xhosa or Sotho origin.
THE CHAIRMAN : When do you think you will be in a position to move it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , and you cannot say that children of Xhosa or Sotho parents cannot speak the language fluently.
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Tuesday, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
320.
SOIL CONSERVATION COMPLAINTS
people who have been proved to have nothing whatsoever and who are not in a position to pay. It does not seek to help professional people such as teachers and members of this House and others who can afford to pay. This is not the first time that this has been done as far as the Government is concerned , because even with the Republican Government this happens when a person is found to be poor and in need. It is a well known fact that even the Republican Government gives assistance to the farmers . Even today the Government is giving assistance to the farmers who grow oranges in Golden Valley. The Government goes even further to subsidize such crops as pineapples . The Government has also a Land Bank which assist farmers in times of need and we have heard that certain important people have been questioned about loans they received.
MR. H. MAFUKULA: Mr. Chairman , as I am still busy making an amendment to my motion I request the House that the next motion be dealt with. PLOUGHING SCHEME DEBTS MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :- " That the Government should write off ploughing-aid debts for 1968 in deserving cases in all drought-stricken areas . " Mr. Chairman, the years 1968/1969 were years of drought such as have never been experienced by anyone living today. I say so because even when one met an old man he would tell you he has never experienced such conditions . At some places all the cattle died and not a beast was to be seen. During the ploughing season the Transkei Government gave sympathetic assistance to the people by providing tractors and that assistance was whole -heartedly welcomed by the people and nearly all the arable allotments were ploughed . Nevertheless the drought persisted and complaints arose from some people whose lands were not completely ploughed. This is what was experienced by some of the land-owners after requesting that their lands should be ploughed : The officers responsible, on finding that the lands were rocky, did These complaints were not plough the land. brought to the Agricultural Department and because these representations were made after a long period the Minister of Agriculture stated in the House that it was now difficult to trace the lands belonging to such complainants . We then laboured under the impression, when the Department said the people would have to pay half the charges for ploughing, that the department was aiming at a solution. At that time the department also realised that the people would reap no crops from their lands . A certain promise was made that the charges would be reduced only for those people who had paid before the 31st July, but we found they were given very little time because they were only informed during the quarterly meetings which took place during the month of June . Even the members of the Legislative Assembly had only given this information to the people at their locations during the month of June . The men who could pay these accounts were away at the labour centres and only the women were left to pay. On issuing the accounts it became obvious that only a few people would be able to pay. There arose another complaint as a result of the fact that when the people handed in their names for this service , each applicant was required to have witnesses . The witnesses now state that all they were required to witness was that they knew the applicants who were mainly women and old people , but they were not standing surety for the applicants . They were therefore surprised to find themselves issued with accounts to pay when the applicants themOne person had to pay 'selves failed to pay. up to R80 for services rendered , and that is clearly indicative of the fact that all the stock in his kraal had to be sold in order to meet the accounts . This motion seeks to help those
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Keep to your motion.
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , in saying this I just wished to explain that no-one should fear that this assistance should not be given. I therefore appeal that this matter should be treated sympathetically. It is said they should pay this money, yet they have not even food to eat. A person with perhaps only three sheep has to sell one in order to buy a bag of mealies from the shop . Some have nothing at all and they are still expected to pay the account, and probably the witnesses are pressing these people to pay because they also have nothing with which to pay. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA :
I second the motion.
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up from the Government side to oppose this motion by the hon. member of the Opposition. This motion does not even need an amendment from this side of the House . It is only one of those things where the members of this Assembly, irrespective of party politics , must consider whether it would be a sane thing for people who form a government to wipe off all this money. Wouldn't this land our Government into financial strangulation , if so many thousands of rand were just to be wiped off like that? Only yesterday the hon. members of the Opposition wanted the Government to increase the salaries of headmen and also to pay the sub-headmen . That motion is still under consideration and has not yet been finalized by this House . Even before we could come to a decision about the salaries of chiefs and headmen here is an irresponsible Opposition, saying we should wipe off thousands of rand . Is this not insanity? Is this not stupidity? Even if people have to please the electorate we cannot always please the electorate if it means our government is landed in financial strangulation . We do not want a state of affairs to arise whereby the people of the Transkei civil servants and everybody at the end of the month will say they want their cheques and the Government has no money to pay its civil servants . We must, hon. members of the House , sit down and consider these things from an angle that will benefit the Transkei and not destroy the Transkei . Nobody is unmindful of the fact that there has been persistent drought for a number -
321 .
of years, and these people when they were assisted by the Government knew very well that nobody Rain falls as the controls rain from above. Almighty wishes to give us rain, and these people were aided by the Government, fully aware that it was a gamble. There are people who have already paid back this money to the Government. OPPOSITION means .
MEMBER:
They have the
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What about those people? Won't this Government be regarded as an unfair Government? The hon. member, the mover of the motion, says there are more deserving cases and he goes on to say, for instance , teachers , members of parliament and people of substance should not be exonerated from this debt. Be that as it may, even if as a member of the Assembly I were in a position to pay back this money I would still , in my heart of hearts , say it was unfair to myself. (Interjections) One nincompoop there says I do not stand for my people . I am standing here in the full interests of my people because there are people in my district who have gone to the magistrate to pay back, in spite of the fact that they are also equally starving. I must also consider those people and any wise leader will not be scared of going back to his people and saying: Look here , the Government assisted us last year and the Government is not responsible for the drought.
want to be known as having said something in this Assembly, whereas they are mentally poor. Mental poverty suggests that a debt amounting to thousands of rand should be written off and no steps taken to see that the Government is reimbursed. Another thing I hate in this House is that the members always say the Republican Government will give us more money. For how long shall we be carried on the backs of the White man? (Interjections ) Why can't we sit down in this House and discuss and see how we we can make this country of ours a self-supporting country? It is the type of mentality that goes about creating more confusion and more confusion in this country. The Republican Government is by no means wrong in subsidizing the Transkei Government because , though we have been given self-government, we are still a state within a state in the Republic. (Interjections ) He says , that political imbecile....( Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN :
Withdraw that, please.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. There is another point I wish to raise . We cannot continually ask the Republican Government for money. Let us try to find ways and means of raising money. You want to take the money we have and put it into the river. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it pleases me very much to be able to speak after the last speaker. It is the truth that when people starve they lose the power to think. The last speaker comes from a droughtstricken area where people have starved for many, many years .
MR. G.G. KUTU : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, according to the rules of the House no member is allowed to use insults . That hon. member should withdraw his insulting remarks .
MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA : What is wrong with that?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: We must consider that we are a Government for the rich people , for the poor people and for medium people , and a sane Government has to see that jus-
MR. MAJIJA: There is a Latin phrase which means " a sound mind in a healthy body" . I expected him to speak in that strain as he cannot have a sound mind after starving for years . Even the dam that has been constructed there will not be of any benefit to them. Only mental sickness would suggest that when people I are starving money should be withheld . believe that money is there to protect people's lives. During this drought many people have died. This Government is proud of itself when it states in this House that there is a surplus of money amounting to hundreds of thousands of rand. The Republican Government stated a long time ago that in order to show the world, the Republican Government would be prepared to advance loans or give money to the Transkei Government. I have never heard it said that this Government has gone to the Republican Government to ask for money without being given that money . Even when they go out to the Republic they bring back corrugated iron and fencing for us . ( Laughter) To show how generous the Republican Government is , the Republican Government even went out of its way to give the people of Lesotho 100,000 bags of mealies and Kaffir-corn . Even now this Government has given money to Nyassaland to establish a town. That means there is money in the Republican Government coffers and all that is lacking is someone to make applica-
tice is done to all its people . If we have to see that our Government is financially strong we must not come up with such motions which only spell the emptiness of our brains . Of course, there are some political upstarts who have just cropped up recently and rejoice very much in cheap political publicity and it is that type of politician who will go back home and say the Government does not want to wipe off this money, because he wants to be hailed as a fighter in this House by his electorate and he somersaults and says we want more pay. Some of the hon. members of this House wanted an increment in our salaries . We supported that. Why can't there be a motion from that side to say we should reduce the increases that we have been given as representatives of the people and that this money must go to pay that debt to the Government? We must not always put self before service and I am sure, if we have any following at all, when we go back to our people and tell them the Government cannot afford to wipe off this money and they should try by all means to see that the money is reimbursed the people will understand that. However , hon. members , there are certain members who suffer from mental poverty, who only 322 .
tion for it. Dr. Verwoerd said : Ask and it shall be given to you. No-one realises the outcome of the 1968 drought . Some people lost all their stock and returned their stock cards to the dipping inspector . All the people say there is not a single drought which has ever surpassed this one . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
MR. J. DINIZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to oppose the motion by the hon. member for Umtata. It is quite clear that the hon. member had no intention of assisting in any disturbances which arose. He only makes a noise in this House , pretending to assist people whilst in fact he is destroying them. It is quite obvious he is no leader at all by nature .
1933/1934 ?
MR. MAJIJA: They say it even surpasses Qilo's drought. All this has happened at a time when our sons are prohibited from going to the Republic to look for work where they could acquire a reasonable amount of money when compared with the wages they would get as unskilled workers in the Transkei . In all these towns you will find a queue of people wanting to go to work but who cannot get permits. All those people haven't even a bag of mealies in their homes. What a disappointment when those who go to look for work have to return to their families and tell them they could not find employment. It was because we realised that the people were starving that last year we introduced • a motion to the effect that maize and other crops should be subsidized . Maize is the staple food of the Black people . That motion was turned down by that majority of members who are on the ruling side. THE CHAIRMAN : member.
Stick to the motion, hon.
MR. MAJIJA: When we consider the motion in question we should agree to it unanimously as leaders of the people, that these accounts should be wiped out. I have already suggested that we could ask the Republican Government to furnish us with this money. We have heard it said that when the farmers in the Republic did not reap a good crop they got assistance from the Government. When people ploughed their lands in 1969 the drought came again and many people will reap nothing. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. member down there has a question to ask he must stand up. Don't keep on talking. MR. MAJIJA: If this Government demands payment of those accounts whilst the people are starving , where does this Government think they will find the money? We should desist from the habit of thinking only of ourselves , sitting comfortably in these chairs . Let us think of the people who went to bed without a morsel of food and the children who have perished from hunger . What kind of state are we going to form if we just keep the money without even asking the Republican Government for money to prevent people from perishing. We must become true representatives of the people when we are seated in this House . I believe after what I have stated that all the members in this House will , with one spirit and accord, come to agreement as far as this motion is concerned . As I speak I see these people hanging their heads and I think we are going to come to some agreement. (Laughter) In so saying, Mr. support the motion.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Come to the motion . Leave personal references alone . I say he will be of no MR. DINIZULU : assistance in any disturbances because among these debtors are some who have paid although they are poor. CHIEF H.Z. ZULU: Mr. Chairman , I wish to ask a question. I would like to find out what the speaker means by the disturbances he is referring to. MR. DINIZULU : I wish the hon. chief from Butterworth would be attentive because I am going to give the reason . I will explain how disturbances will arise as a result of this money not being paid . Quite a lot of things are required of the Government by the Opposition. Last year we discussed the possibility of the reduction of this amount, which was done . Why didn't this motion come up then? We are going to anger those who paid when they hear that those who are in arrear need not pay. These people who have paid will not think the Government is responsible for that , but they will blame the people who are in arrears and accuse them of having bribed the headmen or chiefs . That is why I say this will give rise to disturbances . Furthermore , this will discourage the Government of the Transkei when something urgent arises , because they will feel that they will be the losers . Has the hon. member given it a thought that they want money from the Transkei Government for other services? I wish you could form the Government even for a week and see how you would fare , because the requests you are making are unknown in any government except the Government of the Transkei . No - one doubts that the Government has been of great assistance during this drought, and the people in the rural areas are very appreciative . I talk as one who comes from a hard-hit district, and everything went smoothly when the Government ploughed for the people and reduced the amount they had to pay. There was no trouble in my area. If you, as members of this House , say one thing one time and another thing the next time people will cease to have confidence in you. My suggestion is that the Government should be patient with these people who are in arrear with this amount and not push them down. With those few words I oppose the motion .
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in support of the motion by the hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani , that the accounts which resulted from the assistance given to people to plough their lands in 1968 should be written off. People coming from different places will remember that there are certain arable allotments in these administrative locations which reaped no crops whatsoever.
Chairman , I
323.
MR. B. LANGA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know from the hon. member who is holding the floor whether these people of their own accord asked for these tractors or whether they were just given to them without their applying for them .
half-witted. Doesn't that show reasonableness and maturity when I can see it would be a waste of money and would cause confusion amongst the people? I said in my speech there are people who have already paid and people who have not paid, and that would couse confusion.
MR. KUTU: I am glad this question has been asked because I can now enlighten people who know nothing about this . In 1967 the people lost their stock through drought. In 1968 we requested the Government to plough the lands of people who had lost their cattle. I think I have replied to the question and I shall now come back to the motion . During 1969 we made a request by way of a motion in this very House that the Government should write off the accounts of the people who received assistance . I even quoted the number of people who had applied for their lands to be ploughed but whose lands had not been completely ploughed . Some only had half their land ploughed but they were forced to pay the full amount for the ploughing of the total area . It was through our request that the Government decided people should pay only half the amount charged for the ploughing. Amongst the people who had to pay half were those whose land had not been ploughed at all . I even went to the extent of obtaining the names of those people whose lands were not completely ploughed and I handed those names to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . The Minister promised me that an agricultural officer would be sent out to make investigations as far as the unploughed lands were concerned , but that has never happened to date. No officer was sent to our locality for investigations . This House decided that the Government would investigate the cases of those people who had paid full amounts in order to see what could be done for them, but during a quarterly meeting we were told that all those people who had not accepted rehabilitation would not be supplied with tractors . The people made a request to the magistrate that the 1969 account should be reduced and that was refused . We therefore request the Transkei Government to consult with the Republican Government with a view to obtaining money, as this Government maintains that if this amount is written off it will put this Government into difficulties . For how long have we paid money into the coffers of the Republican Government? It is the chief or the parent who shows mercy to his subjects or his children. I was surprised at the speech by the hon. member for Qamata who comes from a drought-stricken area a land which is full of rocks when he said that the people who elected him to come to this House should not benefit by the reduction or cancellation of these accounts . I think if he had been a broadminded person he should have kept quiet and not said We anything in connection with this motion. heard from that very member yesterday when he said that cotton, which is no use for food , is planted in Qamata.
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman , I did not hear any question from that hon. member. I see he only wants to waste my time . Mr. Chairman, I think it is right for the Government of the Transkei to ask for money from the Republican Government, because this Government is still the child of the Republic . When we bring forward this motion we are thinking of those people who have not even a son to go to work for them and have no money whatsoever . Where are these people going to get the money from? Some people who are aged are under the risk of having their lands taken away by the Government, that is why we say these accounts should be written off. We have every hope that the Transkei Government will ask for money from the Republican Government . Immediately they are advised of starvation in Lesotho they can send 100,000 bags of mealies to those people and yet it is the people of the Transkei who paid taxes to the Republican Government and the Lesotho people paid their taxes to the British Government. THE CHAIRMAN: You are repeating yourself now. MR. KUTU: In fine , Mr. Chairman, I wholeheartedly support the motion by the hon. member and I ask all hon. members on both sides of the House to treat this matter sympathetically. A man should not be contented with filling his own stomach .
CHIEF M. TANTSI : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Mr. Mnyani spoke about the rocky land . Would he rather those tractors had been made to plough those rocky lands? That is what I want to know. CHIEF N.S. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would that both sides of the House would agree that life is just a gamble . I think after the Government has assisted people in ploughing the people should show their gratitude by paying back what they owe the Government. Could we not arrange that half the debt at least be paid by the end of the month? How often has the Opposition complained that surplus money is not being used . Where do they think the money that is being used in the relieffund comes from? Where do they think the money for these tractors comes from ? Were the people forced to use these tractors , or were they not forced by famine to go to the Government? The hon. Mr. Dinizulu says they were not forced to use these tractors . If they were forced by circumstances , can they not use those circumstances to see that they pay the Government at least half what they owe ?
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman, my question to the speaker is a very simple one. I am not even offended. I want to know from the speaker whether , when I say it would be stupid of the Government to throw away these thousands of rand , that has made me
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Where are they going to get the money from? CHIEF JUMBA: The hon. Mr. Kutu asked where these old people are going to get the money from . My experience in regard to these 324 .
tractors is that the illiterate people are the ones who pay, not those who are in receipt of good salaries . How can we believe the hon. member in his assertion that the old people have no money to pay when they were the first to do so? It is people like the hon. member who are responsible for all this delay. I think we should not take into account what has been said by the hon. member for Engcobo . Let us forget about him. The hon. Mr. Majija mentioned that Dr. Verwoerd spoke about the drought. However , he was not lengthy on that point and I do not know where he got his information because these things happened only recently. The same hon. member said that stockowners had to surrender their stock cards because they have lost all their stock. MR. MAJIJA: Do you deny that? CHIEF JUMBA: I don't have to. Whom does he hold responsible for this state of affairs ? Is it the Government, the dipping staff or the stock inspectors? In other words , he complains that the Government assisted us . He also states that our sons are being returned from the labour centres as if it is something which has happened only in recent times. (Interjections ) Probably he does not understand himself and he wants to know where we are going to get money if our sons are being returned from the labour centres. I take it that all these years , when the sons have been going backwards and forwards to the labour centres , they have made no provision and that is why they now have to ask for these tractors to be given free . Will the hon. member tell me whether the Government has not provided stock feed?
did not seek that all those people who owe the Government should not pay. As the Government has already shown by giving all those people who are old and indigent some assistance , it was not intended that the Government was goingtobe forced to wipe out all the debts , but after making investigations it could help those people who need assistance . It is disappointing to hear someone like the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa saying the people would complain simply because some of the old women are being assisted , he being in a position to pay such money. Such a state of affairs is very disappointing. He maintains it is very foolish that a request should be made that certain people's accounts should be written off. I have known him for a long time and I regard him as a very wise man. Even during 1952 at the time of the defiance campaignhe was only on the side where the money was kept. He was never in gaol. (Laughter) He reminds me of a goat which belonged to a butcher and which would just go as far as the butcher's shop but would never enter the shop. (Laughter) He used to come into hospital to tell me how much money was being collected . Something good has been done by the neighbouring White farmers who took out their tractors to plough lands in Lesotho. They did so without being paid. We request this Government to help the people who have no-one to come to their assistance . This drought came as a calamity and when there was an earth tremor in the Cape the Government rendered assistance . It is sad to see some people being so hard -hit in these times of drought, and you find people setting themselves up as recruiters .
THE CHAIRMAN : this motion?
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not in the motion.
CHIEF JUMBA: I want to ask if by all this , including the stock feed , the Government was not intending to assist us . I may be taken as one who wants to take the matter of stock feed and this money being owed for ploughing as one thing. In my own mind the money for stock feed and assistance in ploughing is one and the same thing because it all comes from this fund.
What has that to do with
MR. MNYANI : It shows the hardness of some people who recruit other people just to pay their accounts and these people , under camouflage, pretend to be recruiters while fleecing these people of their money. We request the Government to show sympathy towards these people. It is the Government who will make investigations and give assistance to the needy cases . This very motion was once moved by the hon. Chieftainess Nozizwe . There was a question by the hon. Chief Tantsi who asked me if I maintain that tractors should have ploughed over the rocks in an arable allotment. In reply I say no , but money should not have been demanded from those people who have rocky lands and whose lands were not ploughed . When you come to vote on this question I ask you to allow a godly spirit to work within you.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the mover to reply, if he wishes . MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am very sorry that the hon. members across the floor took this matter so lightly, because it is a matter which is a request on behalf of the people. They believe I want to pose as a good person as far as the electorate is concerned . Even if they interpret it in that manner, that is of no account. What counts most is that I was attempting to request that people should receive assistance . This motion
Motion put and lost by 49 votes to 22 after a division as follows : -
AYES
NOES
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara 'Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata
325.
Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief George M. Matanzima Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Chief Gontsana Wiseman Nkwenkwezi Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile
Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TOTAL : 22
TELLERS : 1. W.C. Singata 2. Chief J. Ntola
TOTAL : 49 TELLERS : 1. T.E. ka- Tshunungwa 2. H. Mafukula The Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
am a resident of the Ngqeleni district and most of the district has been rehabilitated . It was the desire of the people that I should bring this motion forward because of certain difficulties when rehabilitation measures are being introduced, and after rehabilitation. I felt I should bring this matter to the attention of the Government in order that a committee may be appointed to go round the locations and look into these complaints . Nevertheless I shall mention some of the complaints of the people . The motion really affects the whole of the Transkei wherever rehabilitation has been accepted , because these complaints are common to the Transkei . When a location is to be rehabilitated a Government official usually goes out to the location and he is known as an expert in regard to rehabilitation. He confers with the magistrate as well as the headman or chief. It is customary that a committee of that location is also consulted, but this committee is consulted after the magistrate , the chief or headman and the officer have gone right through the location. When these officers are carrying out planning in the location they ex-
SOIL CONSERVATION COMPLAINTS MR. H. MAFUKULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as I said, I wish to make slight amendment to my motion so that it will read as follows : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a committee of inquiry , with powers to co- opt, to inquire into soil conservation complaints in all rehabilitated areas and report its findings for the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry to table next session. "
Amendment agreed to. MR. MAFUKULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move accordingly. I am very sorry to have to deal with this motion while the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is absent. I have to move this because people have requested it. I 326.
plain things to the committee who are in turn instructed to go and tell the people what is being done. What is usually said is that a certain area will be allocated for grazing and another for arable land and the first duty of that committee is to convene a meeting of residents to ask if they are satisfied with the decisions . The planning committee , consisting of the officer, the magistrate and the chief or headman, instead of consulting with the location committee speak directly to the people and tell them that they have decided to set aside these areas as grazing and arable lands. The people then take up an attitude and decide not to accept it, but the planning committee forces it on the people. They make promises to the people and one of the promises they make is that they will not be moved to a different residential area and that the stock will not be moved to the new camp before fencing has been completed if there are no provisions for water within the fenced area, but that is never accomplished as promised and when these complaints are brought to the authoI have a rities they are never attended to. location in my area which has recently been rehabilitated and the people of this location called me to listen to their complaints . I was told they were made to put up homesteads on damp ground. A kraal was put up near a certain dam and the ground round there was quite swampy. They told me they had brought this matter to the notice of the magistrate but nothing had been done . There are 200 people who have no kraal sites and when they referred this question of kraal sites to the agricultural officer who deals with rehabilitation, their complaints were not listened to. They informed me that their kraal sites measure 70 x 70 , and as these camps are being fenced the fence sometimes goes right through the kraal sites so that one portion of the kraal falls outside the camp and another falls inside the camp. There are also grazing
cerned do not agree to that request. The result is that the stock strays on to the roads and the people have to pay fines . Today the people are hesitant about accepting rehabilitation. The Village Management Board camps are fenced with eight strands and the people see that and they want to know why similar steps should not be taken as far as fencing is concerned in regard to their locations. In other words , you find that education is being retarded by keeping the children herding stock instead ofgoing to school . When the camps are not properly fenced it also retards progress , because if one has an arable allotment it is necessary to see that stock does not trespass on to one's land . The hon. the Chief Minister told us to help one another as far as starvation is concerned in the Transkei. As long as rehabilitation is not considered on reasonable lines we cannot expect progress . In the locations which have been rehabilitated there are certain employees of the Government. There is the headman, the ranger, the agricultural officer , but on observation it is seen these officers do not pull together and when any instructions are issued they are issued through these officers . When an agricultural officer brings certain matters to the committee of the people in the location you will find that the headman or chief over that location will say: How is it that I know nothing about this? Usually the magistrate used to inform the headman or chief about anything new, but that is no longer the practice . You also find that there is no progress in the location because of these officers . It is for that reason I have brought this motion that a committee should be appointed to investigate these matters. What the people desire in any rehabilitated area is that their opinion should be considered always. Another complaint is that according to custom a man may have up to ten wives . As you know, chiefs have a wife of the right-hand house and a wife for the Great House, and all these wives have certain rights at their husband's kraal. What happens is that the wives are not allotted land though they pay the required tax. That means they have no rights . That is why I thought I should bring this motion for consideration by this House . I hope and believe that this motion will be accepted by this House as it seeks to encourage the people so that these people who have not as yet accepted rehabilitation will see the progress made in rehabilitated areas .
grounds which have been allocated in places which the people did not want. I asked them what they did about their complaints and they said they went to the magistrate but they were told these were the decisions of the officers concerned with rehabilitation. They then decided to come to Umtata at their own expense in order to consult the Minister of Agriculture . They were unable to see the Minister as they were refused admission . On two occasions they came to Umtata and so they appealed to me to bring their complaint to this House . To pass on, there is another matter which causes concern as far as rehabilitation is concerned . When the location are being fenced in, the fences are only made of six strands , three of plain and three of barbed wire , and it is easy for the stock to go through. Where the furrows for drainage run under the fence , small stock can easily get through. No gates are provided and if anyone goes to my location he will find there are no gates in the gateways between the camps . One of the aims of rehabilitation was to assist people so that they should not worry about herding stock so the children could go to school , 'but what happens now is that the children have to herd the stock because the fencing is incomplete. People have requested that the fences should consist of eight strands of wire , or that netting wire should be used . The officers con-
MR. W.C. SINGATA : man.
I second, Mr. Chair-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I must congratulate the hon. mover of this motion for having outwitted us this morning in order to get thorough briefing on this motion. The hon. member for Ngqeleni , though he is sitting down, asks me what makes me say so. It is because I see him with a copious amount of paper which he did not have this morning. However, Mr. Chairman , I would like to say that this is one of those motions which should not have come before this House. It is purely an administrative matter to which the hon. members of this House could , individually or severally, give attention. The hon. member first of all attacked the way in which the 327 .
that although his area had been three-quarters planned and completed , as a result of representations he brought from the people the scheme was stopped, and that thereafter there was proper consultation with him, the tribal authority and the people. I am not sure whether the area has been completed as far as the planning is concerned, but that was the position that obtained after he had approached the department. Now that shows there is absolutely no need for any commission of inquiry. It is the duty of all of us here , when we have various complaints about the planning in our respective areas , to bring I these complaints before the department. cannot tell why the hon. member stayed behind when these people came to the department. He tells us the people came to the department twice but he does not say whether he did come with them or not, and seeing this was a very important matter it is a matter on which he should have taken it upon himself to accompany the people who came to the department. If, in fact, these people approached the administrative heads of the department and did not get any redress he should have sought an appointment with the hon. Minister. Without wasting much time , (we are tired and we would like to get home as quickly as possible ) I feel I should not waste the time of the House . I have explained that as far as this motion is concerned it is a matter which can be taken up administratively. In fact, the hon. member should understand that a commission is not above the department, and if they feel that when they send their complaints to the department they are not heeded , how do they think the department will be forced by the commission to heed their requests ? The commission is there to unearth the complaints and bring them to the attention of the department and the commission is usually given particular terms of reference. You may find that the commission may not go as deeply into the complaints as you, as representatives of the people , would go so that you may be in a better position to expose the complaints of the people better to the department than that commission which would be costly to the Government.
people were consulted prior to the bringing about of soil conservation in their areas . The method of approach is clearly set out in the Act and for the purposes of refreshing the minds of hon. members , and informing those who were not in this House when the bill was discussed in this House , and those who did not take the trouble and have not taken the trouble to read the Act, I will read the relevant sections. Chapter 1 , sub-section 2 ( 1 ) , reads as follows on the subject of preparation and applicantion of soil conservation schemes : - " The Minister may at any time after consultation with any regional authority concerned require the department to prepare a soil conservation scheme in respect of any land . " Now, hon. mover, you see - the first consultation is with the regional authority concerned , before the preparation of a soil conservation Sub-section 2 (2) : scheme . "As soon as the department has prepared a soil conservation scheme the Secretary shall ..." Now , from that verb " shall " you will see that this is peremptory - that the Secretary has got to do this. "...if the land in respect of which the scheme has been prepared is Government land in the occupation of any tribe or other ethnic group, cause the scheme to be explained by an officer of the Government at a meeting, convened by the magistrate, of the persons residing on such land and at meeting of the appropriate tribal authority in order to ascertain whether there is any objection to any provision of such scheme and, if there is any such objection, the grounds thereof. " Now, firstly the Secretary shall cause a meeting to be held whereat the scheme will be explained firstly to the residents of the location and secondly to the tribal authority. Now , after this has been done the Secretary shall submit to the Minister - "(b) if the land in respect of which the scheme has been prepared is Government land referred to in sub- section (2) (a) , a certificate under the hand of the magistrate that the provisions of the said subsection have been duly complied with, together with a statement of the grounds of objection, if any, to the scheme . " Now, ifthe hon. member and residents of the particular area where the scheme has been applied feel that this has not been carried out, it is the duty of the hon. member , who said he was told to bring this matter to the Legislative Assembly, to bring the matter to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture as a representative of the people . You see , the hon. members of the Legislative Assembly are in a fortunate position in that, unlike the general public, they may make appointments with the various Ministers and go and consult them in their offices , so I feel that as far as that is concerned, it is a matter which is cut and dried , which is provided for in the Act and therefore there is no need for any commission of inquiry. Precisely because the administrative areas and the regions and areas of tribal authorities are not the same , and the complaints are not the same , it would be very difficult for that commission of inquiry to have proper terms of reference . Now, following on what I said about the hon. member approaching the hon. Minister and the department about his complaints, I shall quote an incident in his own constituency where the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase approached the department with regard to his area. I am advised
MR. W.C. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to support the motion . We were fortunate at our place in having a certain Mr. Roberts who was very good about listening to the opinions of the residents , and the result was that in my location there were no complaints . Before fencing was carried out in my location, we tabulated things which should first be considered , such as that there should be water in the camps and water for domestic use , and that the area allocated as kraal sites should be enough to accommodate all the people . I find that these steps are not being followed in other locations. In order to get assistance in our complaints we approached the Secretary for Agriculture. After fencing has been completed the agricultural officers and the Ministers do not want to pay any attention to complaints . In some camps in the locations there is no water for the cattle. These complaints are similar to the complaints embodied in the motion by the hon. Chief Mteto, who was supported by the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa. I personally paid a visit to all these departments but I am not satisfied when only my own diffi328.
culties are solved but other people's complaints are not attended to. In one area in my location three attempts were made to bore for water but no water was found. When one White officer came to my location to test whether water was available or not I asked him why they must come to my location and create dongas. One place was drilled and left without even being covered in. It left a hole of 207 feet. In reply that official said: Do you think I can see underground? (Laughter) I then asked him why he was employed if he could not see underground . I told the officer that when they come to drill a borehole for water they should consult first with the residents of the location who know where water can be found. After that I told him where water could be found and water was found there. These present officers today do not want to be told anything, because they say they are experts and yet they did not know where to find water. The hon. the Minister of Justice said we must go to the department when we have complaints , but here is the problem : The difficulty is the fear of the illiterate headman for the agricultural officers who feel they are superior . The agricultural officers tell the chiefs if they don't say people have accepted the scheme they will be kicked out of their position. This means that even people will not believe the tribal authority because of the presence of these agricultural officers who have got more education. There is yet another location where certain residents have been removed from their kraals about four miles away from the arable allotments . I made investigations and I was accompanied by a senior agricultural officer. Now, there was a dispute between the White and the Black officers . The White officer maintained the regulations did not permit of people being moved more than two miles from their arable allotments . Now, these people were promised that a certain building would be constructed where they could outspan their cattle in order to bring them nearer, but they said no- one could go and look after such a place because that person would be killed . After that it was said that the agricultural officer told the people that if they did not want to remove from that area their kraal sites would be demolished. When I went to the magistrate and the senior agricultural officer the magistrate told me he was only an adviser and had nothing to do with this matter . In fact, he said there was no truth in what I had come to see him about. It is necessary that this committee should be formed so that it can be of assistance to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . When I approached the Secretary for Agriculture for assistance he said he could give assistance if there were some people interested in soil conservation. The hon. the Minister of Justice says these complaints are not alike but they have points in common. Firstly, if there is no water in the camps ; secondly, people who are not assisted by the magistrate who says he has nothing to do with agricultural matters ; and thirdly, the rangers who have been injured because they do not work smoothly with the chiefs . To preserve the land there were some areas where grazing was not permitted . Today people are not interested in going to mend the fences because they maintain that is an affair for the ranger and then you will find that the
ranger and his children will be engaged in the repair of fences . The rangers should be given enough work to occupy them so that they do not have time to attend beer-drinks . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I can see some of us are beginning to suffer from mental indigestion and they will soon have intellectual constipation, so I move that this House adjourn until Tuesday.
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 2nd June , 1970 . TUESDAY , 2nd JUNE , 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just want to inform the House that unless there is further Government business today, it is highly probable that the Assembly will be prorogued tomorrow morning. GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL THIRD READING
:
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on behalf of the hon. the Minister of the Interior , I find myself in difficulties . This is a matter which should have been handled by the hon. the Minister of Education but I have taken it upon myself to request a postponement of this matter until tomorrow morning, because there are certain matters we would like to straighten up with regard to this bill. I move that this item be postponed until tomorrow morning . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Isecond . Agreed to. IMMOVABLE PROPERTY TAXATION BILL : THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman , I move that the bill be now read a third time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I second .
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time .
TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider this bill. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Agreed to. 329.
I second.
There is another important MR. JAFTA: question in connection with these servants of the Government in this respect - that although they are such important servants their salaries are very low. If you look in the administrative locations you will find their salaries are surpassed by the wages paid to the rangers and this is one reason why they are looked down upon by the people . It has been repeatedly said in this House that the sub-headmen should also be considered on account of the great work they Even the Government respects the perform . work done by their sub-headmen.
House in Committee
On Clause 1
Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER: during the second reading stage of this bill I have a full statement of motivation and I do not think the Opposition will have any objections to the sections of this bill . The bill has only two sections , it is very short and I move the adoption of clause 1. Clause 1 put and agreed to.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: men?
Clause 2 put and agreed to.
Whose sub-head-
MR. JAFTA: These sub-headmen are called upon to give explanations in the magistrate's office and when the police visit the location they seek advice from these people . It is not necessary to speak at length because this matter is as clear as crystal. Even the hon. the Chief Minister has often said when he goes to the rural areas that it is his desire to make means as far as these people are concerned because of the important duties they have to perform. There is nothing much to add except to say that we will expect the Government to consider the conditions of these people and to offer some relief.
Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the bill to amend Proclamation R334 of 1963 has been accepted by this House without amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the thrid reading will be tomorrow morning. PAYMENT OF HEADMEN AND SUB- HEADMEN The debate was resumed .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after listening to this rather desperate move by the hon. member to tell this side of the House of what it already knows ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the debate be closed on this motion on the grounds that the budget has not made any provision for such exigencies as are contained in the motion. In any case the Government has heard what the Opposition members have to say on this and it is only a matter for consideration by the Government when the time comes .
MR. JAFTA: We want action . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : ...I feel constrained to indict him, together with all others who think like him in this particular motion, as a group of individuals who are desperately wanting to popularize themselves with the headmen and the sub-headmen. When I say that, my mind goes back to the year 1964/1965 when the stipends of headmen were increased and when thereafter the hon. members across the floor toured the countryside telling the people that the salaries of headmen were raised at their instance . (Interjections )
OPPOSITION MEMBER: You haven't heard what we have to say about it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There are so many motions here and we would like to hear them all , instead of wasting time on one motion. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make a few remarks in connection with this most important motion. The most important point in this motion is the importance of the headmen who are servants of the Government.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: a motion to that effect.
We told them we had
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Will you tell the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Chairman, not to speak while sitting down. I am particularly pleased that the hon. member mentioned the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister told the headmen in his meetings that he was considering doing something for them, and the origin of this particular motion cannot be divorced from the fact that it is because of that that they bring this particular motion about, so that when the hon. the Chief Minister does do something they will turn round and say they are the people responsible for raising the stipends of the headmen. The hon. the Chief Minister has posed various questions to the members across the floor and, because they are devoid of all sentiments of being realistic in their thinking, they
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We know that. MR. JAFTA: If their importance is known it is enough that a word should be heard in connection with their services . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Leave it tothe Minister of Finance . MR. JAFTA: It is right that the Minister of Finance should be reminded of the complaint from the people .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Give me the money and I will pay them. 330 .
are still pressing on with this motion when in fact they should have withdrawn it in the light of the information given them. In the first instance , the hon. the Chief Minister posed a difficulty whereby the counterparts of the headmen in the Transkei in the other areas of the Republic only get R6 per quarter . (Interjections) I would like the hon. member, Mr. B.S. Mnyani of Umtata , to stand up after I have spoken and disprove the fact that the headmen in the Republic are earning far less than the headmen in the Transkei . (Interjections)
by this Government? I will give you another suggestion: Please consult with the tribal authorities and ask them to pay their sub-headmen. Yes, I can see the hon. member for Engcobo saying I am trying to cut their necks . You don't want your necks cut but you want the necks of the Government side to be cut. ( Laughter) That The tribal authorities , is just the position . through the headmen and the headmen who employ the sub-headmen, should make it their responsibility to pay the sub-headmen. I think, Mr. Chairman , the hon. member for Qumbu has already said there is nothing more to be discussed in this motion. In fact, that is why the hon, the Chief Minister said that the mover of the motion should stand up and reply - it was because there is nothing much more to be said in this connection. I hope the mover will stand up and reply and also take the responsibility of paying his sub-headmen in his location, because he happens to be in the fortunate position of being both chief and headman in his location. So the buck is passed to you of paying your own sub-headmen.
MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : They have less to do. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you → there is that short man (I don't even know whether he is sitting or kneeling down) who is always speaking sitting down. I would like him to read the rules of the House carefully. He is disturbing us and we never disturb him when he speaks . Now, in the Transkei there is not a single headman who starts with less than R10 a quarter. It must be remembered , too , that the Transkei Government gets its money from the Republican Government. Now, when we already pay so much more as salaries to headmen in the Transkei than their counterparts in the Republic , how are we going to ask for this money from the Republican Government? Then the next alternative is that we ourselves in the Transkei must find the money, and the hon. members across the floor were challenged by the hon. the Chief Minister to bring up a motion to the effect that the people of the Transkei must be taxed more in order to accommodate this rise in stipends for headmen. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . The hon. members must not speak sitting down. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, I am repeating that challenge to you: Bring up that In fact, you can even bring it up tomotion. morrow and we shall waive the rules so that you should originate the increase in the taxes of the people of the Transkei . MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : did.
Only last year we
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You did what? MR. MADIKIZELA : We allowed him to get all the money he wanted.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, you must initiate a motion to increase the taxes , but you will not do that because you are cowards . All you want is for the Government to empty its coffers and the electorate will bear the brunt as far as this is concerned. You have been saying you are the representatives of the people and you must say that you have asked the Government to tax the people. You even bring a riduculous suggestion to the effect that the subheadmen must be paid by the Government. You don't even go into the question of whether the sub-headmen are the employees of the Transkei Government. Now, how is the Transkei Government going to pay people who are not employed
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to say a few words on this motion. As far as the headmen and subheadmen are concerned it is true that we stand here and make a request that these officers should be paid. The duties of these headmen and sub-headmen are not similar to those allotted to the same officers on the Rand. In our country, and in particular in the Mqanduli district, where I come from, it will be observed that the sub-headmen perform duties for the people . I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that on the introduction of Jabulani into our area people assaulted one another and it was the sub-headmen who came to their assistance . As soon as the attackers had killed someone the sub-headmen came upon the scene and arrested the murderers . Imagine a man going out to arrest people armed with a table knife , and services rendered by a person like that are not even considered . He is not even paid a small salary. If someone saves lives in the country, that person is given a sum of money and the Government is grateful because that person has saved a life . Today things are not as they were in previous times . We cannot be placed on an equal footing with people from other areas who have not yet been given self-government . As there are always battles caused by young boys in our area, and thieves who steal people's property, it is always the headman and subheadman who are called upon to see to these things. They are expected to help recover people's stock and also keep order at meetings . There is no-one who works harder than the headman and sub-headman. The police only work on information given to them by these people . The Government should realise that today things have altogether altered and no -one can be made to do work without being paid. It is for that reason that today we have brought this motion before the House , so that those people whose services are helpful to others should be considered. I am quite sure there is not one area in the whole of the Transkei which can compare with Mqanduli and the Bomvana region. In that whole area there is not one hospital and it is 331 .
the headman who must cope with them.
It is
Minister personally convened a meeting of the headmen in Qumbu and spoke to them. Amongst the chiefs here some were present at that meeting and the sub-headmen were also present. Evangelists , too, were called and also European liquor was brought. (Laughter) A poet was singing the praises there is the poet. (Laughter) People were supplied with liquor and were told the sub-headmen were going to be paid. I am surprised, therefore , to hear what he says today. However, even if he disputes what he said I am not worried. As a person who has been elected by the electorate I represent the interests of the people - namely, thatthey should be given their rights and paid. If people are not paid for the work they perform - in particular the people I have referred to in this motion - they can cause a lot of trouble or difficulty. It has been said there is no money. It surprised me that they say there is no money for people who work for this Government. The hon. the Chief Minister has returned to the House and I am pleased he has come in. You will excuse me if I repeat what I said , because he was absent at the time . Can he say things like this after he called the headmen of the Qumbu district and the poet who sang praises that day is sitting here, when he said the subheadmen will be paid? (Laughter) The poet carried his big knobbed stick. Even if he disputes this question today, I think in the name of the Almighty he will see that this is done. He will say he has done it of his own accord. Even if he does it of his own accord and says it has not emanated from this side of the House he will have done good. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
the headman or sub-headman who must go to the White people to telephone for help because there are no telephones in the administrative locations . I beg the Government, therefore , to favourably consider this motion in connection with headmen and sub-headmen. We are not forcing the Government to do all these things. We are merely asking them to consider the work performed by these people . The Government knows , too, that a person who saves life deserves to be paid. I stood up to fully support this motion and I thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the mover to reply. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been greatly surprised to find that there are people in this House raising objections to such a motion. The motion seeks to help people who are safe-guarding the interests of the Government and the hon. the Chief Minister even went so far as to say they do not know anything about such people as subheadmen. He went even further to say that the sub-headmen are employed by the headmen. There is a difference between sub-headmen and the headmen. I am surprised that there are people who object to an increase in the headmen's stipends. As I said when I introduced this motion , the headmen are like the floor of this House. They are the people who see that there is peace in our country and when we ask today for an increase in their stipends it is said it is not correct to do so. Unfortunately, the hon. the Chief Minister is out of the House at present, although he was the first to raise an objection to this motion. Mark that because I want to tell you today that the hon. the Chief
The deletion of the words as sought in the amendment was agreed to by 39 votes to 19 after a division as follows :-
AYES
NOES
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Nelson Sigcau Mr. G. Ndabankulu Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Solomon Lebenya Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo abobead Mr. Milton Masiko
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Babini Langa Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Godfrey Mafu Ma bandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani TOTAL : 19 TELLERS : 1. L.I. Cemane 2. W.C. Singata
Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane 332.
Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Mr. Tembekile Enoch kaTshunungwa Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Mr. Ntintise Lamech Madubela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Paramount Chief Xolilizwe M. Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Sigcau TOTAL : 39 TELLERS : 1. T.E. ka Tshunungwa 2. H. Mafukula first be consulted . We have repeatedly stated in this House that such a step has never been taken. The headman or chief collects just a few of his counsellors and goes to the authorities to state that the people have accepted rehabilitation, particularly the headmen and chiefs who have some troubles and have squandered money belonging to the people , and in order that they should be favoured they bring in these reports about rehabilitation.
Substitution of the words sought in the amendment agreed to. Motion as amended put and agreed to. SOIL CONSERVATION COMPLAINTS The debate was resumed. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when the hon. the Minister of Justice discussed this motion brought forward by the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Mr. Mafukula , and which I support whole-heartedly, the hon. Minister said the motion should not have been brought to this House but should have been taken to the department for consideration . I can safely say that you gather nothing when you go to the departments . It is only a waste of time and money. Firstly, when we are not gathered in this House a person will lead a delegation of people, perhaps from Willowvale or Kentani , incurring heavy expenses because the members ofthis House are not like White Members of Parliament who get free rail warrants . When people ask a member to bring matters here they feel that as he is a representative of the people they need not come personally. After that he can go back to them and give them a report. If you go to the department and speak to a particular individual you have nothing to carry back to the people . Even if you do , that particular individual is in a position to dispute the fact that you came and spoke to him . If you bring any matter to this House, however, that matter is entered in Hansard and we go to the extent of calling for a division and anyone who objects to that motion is recorded in that book. The complaints which have been brought to the House by way of this motion are common to all the districts of the Transkei. Similarly, when the motion in connection with irrigation schemes was introduced into this House by the hon. Chief Mtet'uvumile , we found that matters mentioned in that discussion affected not only his area but other areas as well . It is for that reason that we support this request for a commission to be formed, because mostly when we bring these matters before this House it is assumed that it is the members of this House who incite people to bring up these motions. It is likely now that if this commission is established it will be formed of people who take no sides . The hon. the Minister of Justice went to the length of explaining that before these matters in connection with soil conservation are brought forward, the tribal authorities should
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He must withdraw that, Mr. Chairman . It is an insult.
THE CHAIRMAN : Are you withdrawing that? MR. MNYANI : I will withdraw, Mr. Chairman. I was only attempting to give an explanation. Another matter which we have referred to now and again is the question of whether the magistrates do go to the administrative areas to verify whether rehabilitation has been accepted by the people. In fact, the commission will be in a position to make thorough investigations and to question these people as to what day they came to bring up this matter. It should not be left in the hands of the women who are given jobs on the construction of dams . This question which has cropped up now and again, that the agricultural officers tend to threaten people by saying if they don't accept this they will be .... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the statement made by the hon. member is a serious reflection on the officers of this Government. I will request him to name one agricultural officer who has intimidated the people and name him , otherwise he should withdraw those remarks . MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, the statement which I have made is to the effect... THE CHAIRMAN: Can you name one? MR . MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, if this motion is carried it will prove whether it is a lie or not that these officers intimidate these women. THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has made a serious reflection against the officers of this Government and I requested him to name one agricultural officer who has made these statements which he refers to. 333 .
The debate was adjourned .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I feel this hon. member was saying that the officers are being accused and therefore if there is this commission the truth will be known. MR. MNYANI :
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on a commission of inquiry into soil conservation complaints was resumed.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I would like the Chairman to keep an eye on the hon. chief from Tsolo who keeps on disturbing the hon. member who is talking , by speaking when he is sitting down.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am sure there should be no need for a commission to be appointed in this particular case , because in the first place the department is always open and ready to listen to any complaints that may be brought in, and to go into them if they are reasonable. More than that, these complaints are so various that it would not serve any purpose for a commission to go into them because the conditions in the several administrative areas are so very different. It is much easier , therefore, for the hon. members as well as the people concerned in the administrative areas to call the attention of the department to any oftheir reasonable complaints , and they will be considered . A point was mentioned , for instance , about whether paramount chiefs and chiefs know anything about the headman and the planning of his area. I think I did mention last year , and we repeat again, that before any planning is done matters are sent to the authorities concerned - tribal as well as regional - so that chiefs come into the picture. Another point mentioned was the question of boundaries , especially with reference to surveyed areas , which, to my mind , should be the very areas where these questions should be easiest to solve because there are maps and descriptions given to explain where the boundaries run. Such things are easier dealt with by the magistrates themselves . Without being long, hon. members , I say it is far better that these complaints should be brought by the hon. members of the Assembly, as well as by the members of the administrative areas concerned and we always go into them , investigate them and try to satisfy the people as to why this and the other thing has been done .
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, another matter to be considered by this commission is to find out, where there is a paramount chief, whether he knows about this matter which is being brought up by the headman. It will also investigate complaints about boundaries , in particular in those places which have been surveyed , where one headman or an administrative location accepts rehabilitation and the other does not. This is the general complaint, that the headman or chief who has not accepted rehabilitation generally has part of his area taken over by the chief or headman who has accepted rehabilitation. This happened at Xongora and Mqekezweni when the Xongora people had not yet accepted rehabilitation and a complaint of this nature arose . They stated that a certain area which had a residential area which people held under certificate of occupation was incorporated in Mqekezweni location. To rectify that state of affairs the agricultural officers said they should first accept rehabilitation and so they did accept it. After they had accepted rehabilitation the chief and the people went to that agricultural officer and asked him when he would rectify the matter, but instead , the officer drove them away from his house. It is such matters which can be investigated by the commission which is Another point to be sought in this motion. considered by the commission is that where an area has accepted rehabilitation things of importance or which will attract the people should have preference . When rehabilitation is accepted the whole administrative area is planned . Residential areas as well as arable and grazing allotments are planned , therefore the first step would be to consider the establishment of windmills so that the people are not fenced in
MR. B.S. MNYANI : May I put a question , please, Mr. Chairman? I wish to ask the hon. the Minister of Agriculture if rehabilitation and resettlement can be put through successfully without stock limitation . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , ifthe hon. member was attentive on the day when the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa spoke he should know that rehabilitation goes on even without stock limitation.
where there is no water and they suffer thirst. If such steps are not taken these people say: Look, now we are fenced in where we cannot get water and other amenities. As a result of these amenities not being provided you come now and again to the department and they promise every time : We are coming, we are coming. This commission could also consider the establishment of windmills even before these areas have been fenced , because water is of great importance . Even if that windmill has been put up in an area which could be allotted as an arable allotment it will still serve its purpose. Similarly, if it is put in a grazing area it will still serve its purpose , and in a residential area it will be of great help. The large amount of money that has been spent on barbed wire should have been spent on water. I therefore support the motion by the hon. member for Ngqeleni . I thank you .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was doubtful as to whether to speak on this motion but I have been encouraged to do so by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he said complaints differ in accordance with the various areas . I came to the conclusion that it is all the more necessary that there should be a commission of inquiry in order to investigate these complaints and find out which are complaints common to most areas . This motion seeks to make rehabilitation and resettlement attractive to people , and also that rehabilitation and resettlement should be carried out on similar lines throughout the territory. 334 .
"
residents of such location. We do not dispute the fact that certain arable allotments have been demarcated on flat land , not on the slopes , but nevertheless , though in some areas there is flat land given for arable allotments , you find lands allotted on the slopes .
Someone stated that there were different kinds of rehabilitation in different areas. There is also a different kind as far as Proclamation No. 116 of 1949 is concerned, and for that reason Cofimvaba accepted rehabilitation. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Cofimvaba is under that proclamation.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : find that?
CHIEF NDAMASE : However , the hon. the Chief Minister says that rehabilitation as applied to Cofimvaba is also under Proclamation No. 116 of 1949, though it is unlike other areas. The very fact that there should be a different procedure under the same proclamation means there is something that is unwanted. In fact, in all civilized governments commissions are appointed. Why must the hon. the Minister of Agriculture refuse to accept the establishment of such a commission? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : need.
Where do you
CHIEF NDAMASE : It is not a good system to have arable allotments demarcated on slopes. Even the soil reclamation Act prohibits such a step. Where you allot lands on slopes those lands become smaller as a result of contouring. For that reason this motion seeks that a commission should be appointed to find out whether allocation has been made in a sound and proper manner. This commission will be composed of sensible people , so why refuse it? If this is a government of freedom , why must it discourage people from making investigations on behalf of the Government and reporting back to the Government. There is no smoke without a fire. There is something wrong with this soil reclamation. I think you must agree to this motion. In the Mpondomise area no-one can touch rehabilitation . Even the Republican Government makes its rules and conducts them by means of commissions . (Interjections) The hon. the Minister of Justice says that Mr. Vorster is being criticized by one commission. With due respect, we ask the hon. members on the other side to accept this motion . The commission can even investigate the question of irrigation schemes. Lastly, I must say that the motion for the commission of inquiry has no objection to rehabilitation , but it is encouraging it. A person who does not want a commission of inquiry just wants all the evil in rehabilitation to be continued.
There is no
CHIEF NDAMASE : It is likely that the hon. Minister relies on and trusts the employees in his department , to the extent that he has no inclination to trust anyone outside the sphere of his own department, but nevertheless we have no objection to the appointment of a commission consisting of officers of his department. Probably the hon. Minister will be in a position to know that one or two members of his department do not favour matters concerning rehabilitation. Most of the complaints come from those areas which have been rehabilitated . They do not complain against rehabilitation as such , but their complaint is due to the procedure followed . I will not describe rehabilitation in detail , but I will mention a few of the complaints . People expect that all the springs would be preserved Where there is no water, and maintained . boreholes would be made in order to draw water; where there is no water in the grazing areas water would be drawn from underground or dams would be constructed.
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to oppose the alleged necessity for a commission of inquiry into soil conservation. I most emphatically say there is no need for such a commission. It rather hurts me that I have to speak after an hon. chief who is head of a tribal authority, because I may have to use some corrosive language which may not be quite palatable to him as a chief. With all due respect I have to say to the hon. chief that this is an indictment of his own tribal authority because there was an interjection from one of the hon . Ministers to this effect: Must there be a commission of inquiry to investigate the failures in your tribal authority? It appears to me that the last speaker , my hon. chief, has spoken along the lines which have only spelled his ignorance of the Authorities Act of 1965. I maintain he is one of the authors of this Act. He says he knows this Act very
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A question, please , Mr. Chairman. Iwould like to know from the hon. member as to whether he will dispute the fact that he, on behalf of his area, came to the department in connection with certain complaints which resulted in the stoppage of proceedings of the reclamation works and that his complaints were attended to. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I have not as yet come to an end of my speech. I believe during the course of my speech this question will be answered. However , I wish to tell him that we have not come here to discuss personal matters , but matters which affect the people as a whole. I will come to his question later - now to continue with my speech . A long time ago when a residential area was selected , a dry portion was chosen so that suitable accommodation beneficial to the health of the people was acquired. In these times , however, there is no such selection and even damp areas are allotted for residential sites . In order to know where the dry portions of such areas are the officers responsible for planning should consult with the
well but I presume when he came to this particular section he read between the lines and not on the lines. I wish to refer to clause 4 of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , sub- section (1 ) (e) (i) , which is land administration. Clause 4 is under the heading of " General functions of tribal authority" and sub- clause (e) (iii ) says : "Soil conservation , including the development, improvement and maintenance of water supplies , the control of grazing and grass-burning, the
335.
guidance of this Act. Let me now come to the question of residential areas . The hon. chief from Ngqeleni has made a statement I could not swallow at all. No Government has ever forced people to go and settle in an area that is not suitable . It is useless talking - I have experienced this . The administration is in the hands of the tribal authorities and the people will voice their grievances or will make representations to the tribal authorities . The tribal authority
eradication of weeds , the protection of trees and the co-ordination of soil reclamation measures. 11 I said I regard this as an indictment of the failure of tribal authorities , and now he says in interjection that they also have to be investigated. It is surprising to find a head of a tribal authority who is as educated as the last speaker is , and apparently will take such guidance and shove it into the dustbin . A tribal authority is composed of a number of tribesmen who are not all literate , and it is the duty of the head of that particular tribe to draw the attention of his authority to such matters . I am not quite satisfied when such remarks are uttered by hon. members of the Opposition, that such things are not carried out uniformly. It all lies within the precincts of a sound leadership within the Bantu authorities , because , to illustrate my point further, I come from an area where a tribal authority knows exactly what it should do and apparently I am able to say some of the hon. members across the floor may be guided by illiterate Tembu tribesmen as far as these matters are concerned , because those of us in our area who are educated have to explain the contents of every Act in so far as it is directed at the people and their administration. We were lucky in our area to have had a head of a tribal authority who takes pains over such matters so that the people should know what the Government is doing. I do not think this Act is such a complicated intricate matter that the hon. member could not have explained its contents to his tribal authority. There was a remark from the Opposition that things do not seem to go like they are going in other areas in so far as Emigrant Tembuland is concerned . The fault is not with the people but the fault is with the leadership. What stops you from dividing your localities into several locations , and those locations will have a common grazing ground? In my area there was never any need for culling of stock because a location which has not sufficient grazing ground is incorporated with other locations and they share the same grazing ground . In fact, in my area people now have to buy more and more cattle because we have sufficient grazing. Isn't that then resultant from a tribal authority which has understood the implications of this Act? You have been given self-government; you have been given tribal authorities buy you fail to administer them. ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN:
will, according to procedure , submit these to the magistrate of the district and then the magistrate will forward them to Umtata . I have known of numerous cases where people have refused to settle in a damp and boggy area , where people have refused to go and settle in a very arid stony place , and representations have been made by their various tribal authority members when the tribal authority sits , and the representations by the tribal authority have never been vetoed by the Government. I know why you complain - it is because you despise the tribal authorities . Those of you who are educated think it would be infra dig to go to the uneducated heads of tribal authorities . Go back to your homes and call meetings of the people and discuss all these matters at a tribal authority meeting. (Interjections ) It is a pity I have not heard what my old dad is saying. THE CHAIRMAN :
We have no old dad here.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: No , I mead " dead" because he is already in his 80s . Now I wish, in winding up , to say that it is absolutely not necessary, hon. members , that we should have a commission of inquiry to go into soil conservation. We have a perfect system of administration; we have a sound Government that listens to all the representations of the regional and tribal authorities . The fault is not with the Government but with you. Go back to your homes and should there be any grievances or complaints , summon a tribal authority meeting, get your tribal authority secretary to write down all the grievances and representations , and once you submit those to the proper channels the Government is bound to listen to you (Interjections ) otherwise this Act should never have been passed by a sound Government of the Transkei, if it was going to create difficulties for the Transkei people .
Order , please .
MR. B.S. MNYANI : this question to ask.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: You come to this House with numerous complaints but you never go back home to explain what the Government has put there before you. You have been given the powers under the tribal authority regulations but you don't exercise those powers . I regard you like a woman who is in love , who won't be satisfied by her boy-friend but will always complain and complain. Now, I regard this motion as one of those measures aimed at more expenditure . No commission of inquiry would go out to any country without money being supplied 'by the Government. I presume when a commission of inquiry is established by the Government you quickly think you are going to be a member What a waste of money of that commission.
Mr. Chairman, I have
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, I think the hon. member has already concluded his address and there can be no question when an hon. member has finished his address . If he has questions other speakers may reply to them .
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I made a request to the Chairman whilst the hon. member for Qamata was still speaking and I was asked by the Chairman to sit down . May I ask the question, Mr. Chairman? THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on. MR. MNYANI :
when, actually, your tribal authorities have the 336 .
As the hon. Minister said
when we don't want you to come and investigate those matters. (Laughter)
we should go to the tribal authorities , but these tribal authorities do not listen to such representations stating that we are not members of the tribal authority. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA :
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: What powers have been delegated by the Minister to the heads of authorities ?
(Not interpreted)
THE CHAIRMAN : Use better language , hon. member.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is for those authorities to request the powers .
MR. TSHUNUNGWA : It is idiomatic . THE CHAIRMAN : mover to reply.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, may I put a question? Is the hon. the Chief Minister aware that there are cases in certain districts , in certain areas , where the tribal authority is told that the area has now been planned and you don't come in anywhere , so that whatever protests they try to register are just turned down? I know of such cases in my area.
I shall now call upon the
Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : before the mover replies I think I must be given an opportunity to elucidate and educate the 25 members across the floor on what they should do. MR. order .
J.M. DUMALISILE :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think it is the duty of those people of that particular tribal authority to bring the matter to the notice of the Government.
That is not in
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I think we must give an opportunity to the hon. member of the Cabinet.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : are doing.
That is what we
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In every soil conservation scheme , apart from the Government officials there is a district planning committee of which the magistrate is a member, and the agricultural officer for that area , with the headman of the location and his counsellors and normally people usually bring forward their representations through the headman to the tribal authority and then to that committee . Now, I think you are well aware that when we passed this Act it was made clear that every soil conservation scheme , when it is applied , must go through the tribal authority and the regional authority.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , hon. members , this is a very important request to the Government coming from the Opposition members but requests of this kind should first of all be reasonable. The person who seeks to ask for the appointment of a commission of inquiry should table before the Government the terms of reference of that commission and that there is no other remedy but that the matter should be handled by a commission. I am surprised that the hon. members should come with this motion before the House after passing such an important piece of legislation. In terms of the Agricultural Act, 1966 , powers are granted to the tribal authorities to assist the Minister in soil conservation works . Section 32 of that Act reads as follows : - " Subject to the provisions of the Authorities Act, it shall be the duty of every tribal authority - (a) to assist and advise the Minister in all matters relating to soil and veld conservation, livestock improvement water conservation and the development of agriculture generally within its area; (b) to assist and advise the head of the tribal authority in the exercise or performance of any powers delegated to him under section 31. " Mr. Chairman, the Minister can even delegate some of his powers to the head of a tribal authority in these matters . This is provided for in section 31 of the Agricultural Act , which says: "The Minister may by writing under his hand delegate to any officer of the Government or to the head of any tribal authority any of his powers under this Act . It shall be the duty of every tribal authority to take such steps as it may consider necessary to ensure the proper carrying out of the provisions of any soil conservation scheme which is in operation in respect of any land within its area . " Now, what more 'does the hon. member want when the provisions of this law grant them the commission they require - that is , the commission in the body of the tribal authority. Now, you want to go and investigate matters of Emigrant Tembuland ,
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Is that correct? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes . MR . GUZANA :
Is it contained in the Act?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The plan is usually placed before these authorities . They are usually consulted about it - that is in terms of the Act.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : A question , please , Mr. Chairman. I want to know whether the planning committee referred to by the hon. the Chief Minister is embodied in that Act - that is , the committee which has the magistrate as a member. He did not define the other members of that committee . We shall also be glad of the definition of membership of the committee he described . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Section 2 of this Act provides that the Minister may at any time , after consultation with any regional authority concerned, require the department to prepare a soil conservation scheme in respect of any land. That is the question asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. GUZANA : 337.
He need not consult them .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I did not say that. I said he may require the department to prepare a soil conservation scheme , but if he does he must consult the regional authority. MR. GUZANA : about it.
no loose money just to be enjoyed by people who want to go on holiday. (Interjections) Yes, you want to roam about the Transkei. You must convince us about the personnel of this commission. Whom do you want to be members?
There is nothing obligatory MR. R.S. MADIKIZELA : Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You will never find a Government having obligatory provisions in a statute, but normally that is what is done , and as soon as the department has prepared a soil conservation scheme the Secretary, if the land in respect of which the scheme has been prepared, is Government land in the occupation of any tribal or other ethnic group, cause the scheme to be explained by an officer of the Government at a meeting convened by the magistrate of the persons residing on such land and at a meeting of the appropriate tribal authority in order to ascertain whether there is any objection to any provision of such scheme . The position is that you talk as if the Government does things without consulting anybody. You see , that came from the hon. member for Umtata , the hon. Mr. Bangani Mnyani. He says that the Government must act in consultation with the paramount chief. The paramount chief is a member of the regional authority. He is the chairman of the regional authority, the head. He can also be chairman of a tribal authority in the area. What further consultation do you require ? CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : planning committee ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: of....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. member for Ngqeleni said the officials of the Department of Agriculture can be appointed as members of this commission. Now, where have you ever seen such a thing? CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: There has been a departmental commission. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But they consist of members from other departments. CHIEF NDAMASE: mental.
No , it is inter-depart-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, you want a commission consisting of members who have to indict themselves on their failures . Is that what you want? (Interjections) Do you want these officials to go and investigate what they are doing? (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
What about the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You must bring forward suggestions which are reasonable and which will help the Government to find that there is necessity for the appointment ofa commission. Now I don't want to go into some of the things pointed out by the hon. member for Umtata , because I have already replied to them when I quoted the provisions of this Act. For example, he puts a question: Can a rehabilitation scheme succeed without stock limitation? Mr. Chairman, in my own view that is a very stupid question because limitation of stock is only resorted to when the carrying capacity of the veld is too little to carry the stock.
It usually consists
CHIEF NDAMASE: In the Act. THE CHIEF MINISTER: ...the departmental officials ... CHIEF NDAMASE : in the Act?
That is for the
So it is not provided for
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I have not looked it up, but even if there is no planning committee the Act was promulgated after you had gone through it thoroughly. Now, the hon. member for Umtata , Mr. B.S. Mnyani , stressed the point that the magistrate must go and hold a meeting in the locations . He still belongs to the old school of thought as believing that the magistrate is the chief in the area in the jurisdiction of his district. I don't blame him because he stays in an urban area and his chief is the magistrate of the municipal area. For his information I would like to advise him that the head of a tribal authority in an area is the proper administrator who advises the Government and you have no reason to impeach his honesty in these matters. Now, I would like to stress further what was said by the hon. member for St. Mark's district, Mr. T.E. Tshunungwa, when he said the appointment of any commission has financial implications. Now, you are calling on the Government to spend money and you must convince the Government about the reasons , the
MR . foolish.
MNYANI :
So the question was not
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You were putting a question which you knew when any reasonable community will find that there is more stock than the veld can carry.... MR. K.M. GUZANA : I think your explanations are confusing the issue.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I don't think you are in a position to follow me because you are bent on a commission and therefore you will not want to listen to me. Now, take the St. Mark's district. You asked why St. Mark's district did not fall under Proclamation 116 of 1949 and I replied that the rehabilitation in that area fell under that proclamation. The only difference is that we put forward the submission that we were a tribe. When the locations were demarcated for administrative purposes it was never thought that there would be a time when it was said that grazing used by the people of the locations
terms of reference for the expenditure of that money . Our budget is very tight and there is 338.
achieved by now, then we have to look into our skills and see what we have to do . This side of the House is reacting to the stimulus given by the hon. the Chief Minister in his policy speech. It has asked itself the question: Why have these rehabilitated areas not been completed where a soil conservation scheme has been applied? Why is it that people continue to react adversely to soil conservation schemes when they are in the interests of the people themselves? Why is there a constant simmer of dissatisfaction even in areas where the soil conservation scheme has been accepted voluntarily? I do not propose to give point to their complaints because some of them are waiting to be taught what they should complain about. All we want is to get the Department of Agriculture to look into the situation with an objective eye and that can only be obtained when we have a committee of inquiry. The Government has raised the question that this will involve the Government in a lot of expense.
surrounding it had to be used by the people of one location, so we grouped together the locations according to the grazing area. Five locations , four locations , two locations were regarded as a unit. Now that is the only difference . Mr. Chairman, these complaints about water , grazing camps , water for human consumption, are matters which should receive the attention of the tribal authority. I can only deduce your request to be utter nonsense and that you have come to waste the time of the House . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been drawn into the discussion by the ostrich-headedness of hon. members of the Government. (Laughter) On the one hand they tell us to do one thing and , when we seek to do that one thing, they negate it with their utterances in this House . One gets the impression that once they have made a policy speech in this House they forget what they have said and don't know it the following day, and when there is a reaction to a policy statement made by this Government the people think that those reacting are being stupid. These are the words of the hon. the Chief Minister when he spoke to his Vote : "In spite of all our extension services and our preaching and propagating of improved agricultural methods over many years , it is a fact that the people of the Transkei have not yet risen above a subsistence economy. " Further on, I quote : "Development must therefore be based primarily upon the transformation of farming within the Transkei . " I quote again: "Our schemes and attitudes up to the present seemed to have shown little results as far as increased production is concerned . If we acknowledge this to be the case then we should not be dogmatic but should be prepared to reexamine our agricultural policies. " THE CHIEF MINISTER: a commission?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: pense.
MR. GUZANA : In fact, the hon. the Chief Minister says in unnecessary expense. In effect, he is saying that the status quo must continue and therefore we must mark time in our agricultural programme . I have been advised that this House is rising tomorrow and in so doing and rising tomorrow this Government is going to save something like R4,800 in daily allowances to members of this House . There is the money for the Department of Agriculture to use in this inquiry. If the people are complaining, the best medicine to silence the complaint is to ask why they are complaining. This is the only way in which you can do it. We want our people to give up their land when they cannot use it; we want to wear down the resistance to soil conservation schemes ; we want people to be so committed to an agricultural scheme that they accept it as their own and the responsibility to see it succeeding is their own, but our Government just says No in the face of a reaction to their stimulus . In the discussion of this motion I thought that if the Government opposed the establishment of a committee of inquiry it would bring us an alternative - an alternative that is going to give practical application to the ideas which were expressed in the policy statement of the hon. the Chief Minister.
Does that require
MR . GUZANA : These utterances in effect say what we have done to improve our agriculture has not produced results , that we need to re-examine our agricultural policy, and one of the most important schemes handled by the Department of Agriculture is a soil conservation scheme applied to a given area. In spite of the provisions of the Agricultural Act of 1966 , five years later the hon. the Chief Minister tells us that we need to re-examine those schemes . We have not said that a soil conservation scheme is bad . In fact, if you want us to say it we say soil conservation is good and it should be applied everywhere in the Transkei , but if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture can say in reply to a question that not one rehabilitated area has been completed , then we must ask the question: Why? THE CHIEF MINISTER : appoint a commission?
Unnecessary ex-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Will it be served by a commission of inquiry? MR. GUZANA : It may be served by a commission of inquiry or some other alternative which comes from the Government which gave this stimulus . I am inclined to say , like Professor Pauw said at Fort Hare , that what the Chief Minister said in his policy statement about a change of attitude is that it was just words , words , words. You see, there is no point in marking time in this world and I want to assure the Government that this side of the House is as committed to improving agriculture as this Government is .
Do you have to
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the point we are developing is whether there is need for reorganisation and reorientation of our attitude towards agriculture . If we have confessed that we have not achieved what we ought to have 339.
non-receptive to the Opposition, and yet you cry out now and ask us to give you assistance in convincing the very men who you have set up It is a very strange Government against us . that is going to say: Please, Mr. Opposition member, go and convince the people about this.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. GUZANA : And I want to make this public pledge , that this side of the House will not do anything to obstruct a constructive and a progressive agricultural programme .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You must assist us .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And the hon. member, Mr. Majija ?
MR. GUZANA : And even if we were to commit ourselves to assisting you, how are we going to assist you when you say one thing in this House and the very opposite outside this I have followed the governing party House? during its last electioneering campaign in Umtata, and the members of the public have told us that the Chief Minister has said he has opened up the forests for the people to cut wood; that there will be no rehabilitation scheme here as long as he is Chief Minister . (Interjections) Now, how can you help a Government like that? In effect, it will be suggested that we are usurping the position of the Government, and we may continue to support them on the utterances they make in this House when they are going to say the very opposite when they get outside this House . (Interjections ) I am amazed at your dishonesty. If anything fails by way of an agricultural scheme in the Transkei I put the blame on the Government because it does not speak with one voice all the time.
MR . GUZANA : I don't like the hon. the Chief Minister pointing out members of this side when I, as Leader of the Opposition, pledge the support of this side of the House to the Government on this scheme . Yes, you ask us to go and break new ground whilst this Government sits down and tells people at political meetings there will never be any fencing in this area. You wear a white suit in this House and when you go out and address political meetings you say the very opposite to what you say here. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER; Mr. Chairman I want to put a question to the hon. member , I want to know if he, as Leader of the Opposition , has tried to educate his colleagues to try and assist the Department of Agriculture in this matter. Now, the second question is : Has he ever tried to speak to the hon. members across the floor , many of whom are members of a tribal authority, to follow the terms of this Act in trying to approach the Department of Agriculture ? Will he admit that the experts in matters of agriculture are in the very department which is being criticized by the hon. members across the floor?
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR. H. MAFUKULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as mover of this motion I am pleased to have this opportunity to reply to the debate. This motion seeks to help the Government and the people. When we made reference to a commission in this motion we were aiming at something which would be of assistance to the Government because rehabilitation has been in existence for some time and yet complaints do not come to an end . As far as I am concerned , I think the Government has no solution except a commission to make inquiries from the people . In fact and in truth, the aim is not against rehabilitation. I personally accepted rehabilitation a long time ago and my area was rehabilitated a long time ago. Istill want rehabilitation, although there are certain complaints . When the hon. the Chief Minister replied he stated it is not necessary for the establishment of a commission of inquiry. Similarly , the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said there was no need . The hon. the Minister of Justice said this was a very important motion because it contained very important matters . He only differed in this respect - that he said the matter should be referred to the Department of Agriculture . We can make a comparison between these two Ministers - the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Agriculture to find out who has spoken the truth. The hon. the Minister of Justice said this matter should have first been referred to the tribal authority, from thence to the magistrate. We who come from the administrative areas know that all that does happen, but these people are not given a hearing, even after travelling long distances , and some of them decide to come to Umtata . You will find that no notice is taken
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , you have had your experts in the Department of Agriculture and Forestry but they have not completed one rehabilitation scheme . THE CHIEF MINISTER:
How do you know?
MR . GUZANA : I know it from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . It is written down in his reply. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Not one ? MR. GUZANA: Not a single one . That was his reply to a question put by this side of the House , and the fact that the people still complain after so many years is indicative of a probable fault in the scheme , or a fault in propaganda or a fault in the implementation. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN:
Order , please.
MR. GUZANA: I would like to address a tribal authority meeting but my position has been rendered invidious by the fact that the governing side always says the Opposition are communists , that we are agitators against the Government.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are against the chiefs .
MR. GUZANA: .... and that we are agitators against the chiefs , so that your chiefs are 340.
THE CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member (Chief N.S. Jumba ) please march out.
of their endeavours . There is one thing that should be noted by the hon. members on the governing side when they say this matter should not have been brought to this House . Some of our people are very poor and no provision has been made by the Government for these committees in administrative locations to travel to Umtata . Even if those committees confer with a member of this House they have no means of coming to Umtata , so whatever matter they wished to deal with ends nowhere and the Government is not therefore in a position to know what troubles the people have. The Government knows it is ruling over a poor people. If you are hungry you cannot voice your opinions . How can the ruling side expect these people to travel here , seeing they have to incur expenses ? After a great deal of thought we decided that a motion requesting this commission should be brought before this House . In fact, when the hon. the Chief Minister addressed this House in his policy speech he asked that he should be assisted in connection with this matter of starvation and hunger. When we take such steps as these , are we not giving assistance to him? What worries the people in the rehabilitated areas is the failure to keep promises . When this matter is introduced to them the people are spoken to reasonably, but later on they are just left in the lurch. You find that the planning committee now does things of its own accord, and does not consult the chief who is the head of that administrative location and they will not listen to any advice from the location committee . It is for such reasons that an application is made for the establishment of a committee of inquiry. In fact and in truth, this is an attempt to help the Government.
MR. LANGA: My second question is : When an administrative location has accepted rehabilitation under certain conditions , is it therefore correct that if there are complaints arising out of such acceptance and conditions that those people should bring their complaints to this House and not to the department concerned? As a Pondo, may I say, therefore , that when people are about to effect rehabilitation do they first come to this House or go to the chief or go to the authorities which rule over them ? It does happen that when we come to Umtata a person wants to stand up and speak in this House so that it will be said of him that he also took part in the discussions . ( Laughter) Those are the questions I wished to ask you before you go on talking, talking. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. MAFUKULA : Mr.Chairman , when I give a reply to those two questions asked by the hon . member, I will say to him I am not a teacher to teach people the law. Let me come back to my discussion. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . I shall adjourn the House if you behave like this , hon. members. MR. MAFUKULA : Keep quiet when other hon. members are speaking. I never speak when they are speaking. I still say that officers like Mr. Hall -Green and Mr. Roberts listened when people brought complaints . THE CHIEF MINISTER:
MR . MAFUKULA : It is now quite evident that as time went on some other people took up the positions occupied by those officers . In other words , I can say they were not desirous of progress as far as the Black people are concerned because today I should not have brought these complaints in this House if these officers listened to the complaints brought to them by the people . It is for that reason we bring these matters to the Government. There is nobody who attends to our complaints when we are sent by the people with their complaints . Do you bear me out, Sir , when I say we asked you to give us assistance ? If you agree that you said so, please go out to the rehabilitated areas and help your people . If these people could come before you, you would establish this commission of inquiry, because when we go back to the people as representatives of the people they ask us if we ever lay our complaints before Chief Matanzima . They forget about the Legislative Assembly and speak of Chief Matanzima and then we find we cannot answer them, so the only way is to bring these matters to this House . Another matter as far as the agricultural officers are concerned who work in the administrative locations , is that there are some elderly men who use scooters today and these old men fear they will lose their jobs because of these scooters . Their fear is that when they can no longer use the scooters they will be told they must leave. In fact, these scooters should be used by young boys . For an old man to use a scooter ....
MR. N.L. MADUBELA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if a law which has been passed in this House can be The Assembly decided on the rules broken. governing soil conservation schemes and now they are differing from what was passed in this House. ( Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN :
Hear , hear .
Order, please .
MR. MAFUKULA : Mr. Chairman, I am sorry to say I am not in a position to answer this question because I do not know what he is aiming at. Those people who first accepted rehabilitation say that rehabilitation is becoming worse as far as those areas are concerned which have lately accepted it. They say in former times there were people like Mr. Hall -Green who were going up and down these rehabilitated areas . They listened to people when people brought up their complaints . MR. B. LANGA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, may I ask two questions from the hon. member. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. LANGA: I will continue asking questions and I will speak when I like to speak. This is my first question: When an area has accepted rehabilitation , at what stage does it do so before it has consulted the paramount chief or the authority? ( Interjections ) 341 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : motion?
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE SIONS BILL : THIRD READING
Is that part of the
PEN-
THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I now hand in a printed copy of the Transkei Government Service Pensions Bill in three languages - that is , in Xhosa, English and Afrikaans and I move that the bill be read a third time .
MR. MAFUKULA : When we speak of this commission those are some of the matters we believe the commission will bring to your notice . Lastly, I should draw attention to the fact that the land is being washed away and dongas created in these very lands which have been rehabilitated. I have said that even if this motion is not accepted, at least the subject has been discussed and our objectives raised.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to.
Motion put and lost.
The bill was read a third time. ANNOUNCEMENT TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT ACT : THIRD READING
THE CHAIRMAN : Before we close there is an announcement to make and I shall ask the Secretary to read it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Government Service Amendment bill be read a third time .
THE SECRETARY : It is addressed to the hon. the Chief Minister : - " I have been directed by the Honourable the Commissioner- General to extend an invitation to you and all the members of the House to a braaivleis and other refreshments immediately after the prorogation of the House tomorrow. The Commissioner- General who is at present in East London apologises for not being able to attend the function due to the illness of Mrs. Abraham, who is in hospital in East London. " I am advised that the function will be immediately after the House has adjourned tomorrow and at 2 p.m. the Accountant will be ready to pay out allowances to members.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time . ADJOURNMENT OF THE ASSEMBLY THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in closing this second session of the second Legislative Assembly of the Transkei , I feel I must say a few words of appreciation to the hon. members of the Assembly for the way in which they have dealt with matters here . It is now seven years since the Transkei was given self-government and its own Legislative Assembly. At the inception of this Assembly people all over the world and in various countries expressed various opinions about it. Some said they were sceptical that a Black man could have his own Legislative Assembly in South Africa , but it is with pleasure that I say that from the beginning the standard of the Assembly was so high that the world focussed attention on the Transkei . This encouraged those members who were representing their tibes to be honsest, dignified and to endeavour to maintain a high standard. People who come to my office from various countries are taken aback at the progress which they see in the Transkei . Many people believe that the building of a state is something which can be achieved overnight. The Transkei will develop like any other states which have reached a high standard . The development of our state depends on the members of the Assembly who have been sent by the people to come and handle their affairs in this House . They will best be able to see to this during the recess by visiting the various departments in connection with matters The most important affecting their tribes. thing during the last seven years is that nothing has affected the relations between us and the Republic of South Africa which has made it possible for us to have this Assembly. Any matters concerning this Government and that
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 3rd June , 1970. WEDNESDAY, 3rd JUNE , 1970
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I would like to remind members of the Assembly and any people who are not members of the Assembly who are connected with the Government, such as interpreters and other people , and the people in the Press gallery to attend a braaivleis this morning at Abrahamskraal at 11.30 . I will request those who have cars to assist their friends. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the Secretary of the House to make an announcement on my behalf. THE SECRETARY : Arrangements have been made to pay all the members at 2 p.m. The payment will be made in cash and it will be appreciated if all the members will be available to receive their allowances this afternoon. As soon as the payments have been made the money that is left over will be banked so that it will not be easy for members to be paid their allowances expeditiously after that. 342.
of the Republic are dealt with in a friendly atmosphere . As evidence of the good relations between us and the Republic we have funds which we get from the Republic for our yearly development. Another proof of this friendship is the loaned officials who have been sent here to guide us so that our people who have no knowledge of administration may be able to gain knowledge in that respect. We are very grateful to the Government of the Republic for this assistance . I wish to thank the officials and the members of the staff of the Department of the Chief Minister for their co- operation with us all the time the Assembly is in session. I also thank those officials who are not in the Department of Finance but in other departments who have always co-operated with us whenever we have been here in session. I think I am expressing the opinion of everyone when I say Elata Printers should be thanked for their very good work which they have done in facilitating matters . Recently, members of the Press gallery have shown that they deserve some thanks today . I specially thank Mrs. Muggleston for her work as stenographer in the Assembly. We thank you specially, Mr. Chairman, and your officials in maintaining order . At times you have had to suffer some worry but you have borne this with fairness . We also thank the interpreters and all officials of the Assembly. I wish every member of the Assembly a good year and I appeal to you not to go and sit at your kraals but to go and do some work. As I have already said , the future of the state depends on you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , South Africa has the enviable distinction of having many races speaking many languages, and the Africans have been taught the courtesy of placing themselves last in everything. It is for that reason that, whilst the hon. the Chief Minister has spoken in Xhosa I prefer to speak in English. I wish to echo his words of thanks to all officials seconded to the Transkei Government, public servants of this Government and all the functionaries who make possible a smooth and effective legislative session of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. It would be tedious for me to name them one by one, but the warmth of appreciation is as strong as is the itemized word of thanks to each one of them. 1970 has been a year of events and happenings . This is Water Year; Fort Hare has become a University; South Africa has become concernedly aware of the hardship of detention without trial ; South Africa has unfortunately had to forego, as as a result, the cancellation of the cricket tour of Great Britain; Ashe could not come into South Africa to play tennis ; New Zealand is sending a team to play us in rugby. There seems, therefore , to be an awakening to the issues that face men as a whole , rather than South Africa as an individual country separate from the rest of the world. These events are not without significance , but I think the most important significant factor of 1970 ,
after the general election , is the outward look of the Honourable the Prime Minister of South Africa . We are filled with admiration for his courage in going out of South Africa to Malawi and to Rhodesia on a goodwill tour and, since we know that charity begins at home , we are convinced that the less privileged members of the South African community are going to see the light in the future . We are hoping that this Assembly is going to continue to show its responsibility towards the people of the Transkei and towards the people of South Africa as a whole, and this session in particular has been outstanding. Here I refer to the speech by the hon. the Minister of Finance when he spoke to this Vote . I wish to say, in congratulating him on that speech, how much we are with him all the way and all the time. It has revealed to us that he has come down from the ideologies of "apartheid" to the practicalities of bread-andbutter politics , for whether we live in a multiracial state or live in a separate state , we have got to be fed in order to continue to live . Whether the Transkei ultimately becomes independent or whether the Transkei remains an integral part of the Republic, the fact of the matter is that there is need for economic development based primarily on agriculture in the Transkei. Don't mistake me , Sir , and think that we are surrendering our policy - not by a long chalk; but there is a growing responsibility and concern for the welfare of the people and we are prepared to lend our weight and to give support to those things that are going to alleviate the position of the under-dog. Sir, in the announcement which we received yesterday from the Chair, (it was an invitation to Abrahamskraal ) we were advised that the Honourable the Commissioner-General will not be with us at the braaivleis . May I, Sir, thank him for the eats he is going to provide for us, and may I congratulate him for the honour which he enjoyed when he opened this Assembly. May I express the hope that Mrs. Abraham , who is in East London, will soon recover and be able to come back to Abrahamskraal . I also wish to say how much we hope for the future that all men and women who have shared in legislation will put their hand to the plough to implement the good things that have come out of this House , and that if our discussion has been blemished by fisticuffs we should know that it should be the last time and should never be repeated again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this Assembly adjourns until a date to be published in the Official Gazette next year.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
The Assembly adjourned after the singing of "Nkosi Sikelel'i- Afrika " and " Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Hesu" .
343.
TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY · REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1970
should be further prevailed upon to tighten up the internal checks and controls in their offices .
RULE 147 (b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof: -
(2) Balance of Report and Statements of Account. Your Committee has no observations to make upon them. R. MSENGANA. Chairman.
(b) On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure . When the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee.
Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, UM TATA. 15th May, 1970.
PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE .
ANNOUNCEMENT.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS , appointed in terms of Rule 147 (b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee consisting of Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), L. Cemane, V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase .
16th April , 1970 : That the following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts : Mr. R. Msengana - Chairman , Messrs. L. Cemane , V.S. Reve and Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase .
R. Tuesday , 5th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m. )
MATTERS REFERRED TO THE COMMITTEE.
PRESENT.
17th April , 1970 : Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1968/69 tabled. Referred tothe Committee in terms of Rule 147 (b).
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Mr. J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor, representing the Controller and Auditor- General , accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl, Senior Auditor in attendance .
REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1970.
Rule 147 (b) the Transkeian Chief Ministers ' Committee were
Your Committee , having considered and examined the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1968-69 referred to it , and having taken evidence , which it submits herewith , begs to report as follows : -
of the Rules of Procedure of Legislative Assembly and the announcement constituting the read .
The Chairman welcomed members and officials . The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. of the Transkei for 1968-69. Mr. Muller examined .
(1) Rising incidence of theft in the Transkeian Government Service .
The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.40 a.m. until Wednesday , 6th May, 1970 at 9 a.m.
Your Committee noted with alarm the rising incidence of theft in the Transkeian Government service , particularly that in the Department of Justice , as reflected in the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General (pages 9 and 22) .
Wednesday, 6th May , 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT.
It was reassuring to ascertain that steps are being taken in the Department of Justice to curb such thefts , but whilst appreciating the difficulties with which magistrates have to cope, your Committee , nevertheless , feels that magistrates and other control officers
Messrs . R. Msengana ( Chairman) , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela . Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor and E.F. Niksch, Secretary for Interior in attendance . 344.
The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc , of the Transkei for 1968-69.
Mr. Jager examined. On the motion of Mr. Madikizela. Resolved : That the Chairman report of the Resolution adopted by the Committee .
Mr. Niksch examined .
The Committee deliberated and at 9.30 a.m. adjourned sine die.
The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Tuesday , 12th May , 1970 at 9 a.m.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Tuesday , 12th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) Tuesday , 5th May , 1970 (at 9 a.m.) PRESENT. PRESEN T. Messrs . R. Msengana ( Chairman ) , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase ( late arrival),
Messrs . R. Msengana ( Chairman) , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase .
Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and J.A. Burger , Secretary for Justice in attendance .
Messrs. J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and G. C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor in attendance. Mr. Muller examined.
The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor -General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. of the Transkei for 1968-69.
STATUTORY APPROPRIATIONS : PARAGRAPH 5 (PAGE 2). 1. Chairman) Mr. Muller , it is mentioned in the concluding paragraph that the Bill containing the necessary amendments to the Act had been held over until the 1970 Session of the Republican Parliament. Could you please enlighten the Committee again as to the necessity for such amendments and were the amendments made? - (Mr. Muller) I quote from paragraph 5, page 2 of the Report for 1966-67 : -
Mr. Burger examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Wednesday , 13th May , 1970 at 9 a.m. Wednesday, 13th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESEN T.
"Although section 52(1 ) of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , was amended by section six of the Bantu Laws Amendment Act, No. 63 of 1966 (promulgated 4th November, 1966) , empowering the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to determine that moneys payable in terms of sub- section (a) (i) thereof, shall not be paid into the Transkeian Revenue Fund , the amendment was not made to operate retrospectively with effect from 1st April , 1964, nor was any provision made regarding certain of the fees of office and fines to which lower authorities are also entitled and referred to in section 52 (i ) (b) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , read with section 56 (1) (b) of the Transkei Authorities Act , 1965 .
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D. P. Ndamase, Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor , Secretary for Agriculture and F.W. Voges , Inter-departmental attendance .
Chief Auditor , S.W. Pienaar , Forestry and Accountant , in
Consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc, ofthe Transkei for 1968-69 continued. Messrs . Pienaar and Voges examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until Friday , 15th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m.)
It would, therefore , seem that as the revenues raised for lower authorities with effect from 1st April , 1964 , had not been paid into the Transkeian Revenue Fund as required by section 52 (1 ) ( a ) and (b) of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 , the provisions contained in section 56 ( 1 ) and (2) of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965, are inadequate and that a further amendment of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , as amended, is necessary to cover all aspects . "
Friday, 15th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESEN T. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and L. Cemane . Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor and P. Jager , Acting Secretary for Roads and Works in attendance .
The amendments were made . Act 27/70 provides : -
The Committee continued the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. of the Transkei for 1968-69.
Section 7 of
"(1) Section 52 of the Transkei Constitution 345,
Act, 1963 , is hereby amended by the substitution for paragraph (b) of sub- section (1) of the following paragraph : "(b) all revenue and income , including licence fees , taxes , fees of office, fines , forfeitures , rents and other moneys deriving from or through the administration of those matters in respect of which the Legislative Assembly may make laws in terms of this Act, or any other additional sources of revenue which may specifically be included in the First Schedule to this Act , except such revenue and income accruing in terms of Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 to any authority referred to in that Proclamation, and except in so far as the Legislative Assembly may otherwise determine in respect of any institution, authority or body referred to in item 11 of Part B of the First Schedule to this Act; ".
-General to satisfy himself, inter alia, that all issues and payments are made in accordance with the proper authority and are supported by sufficient vouchers or proof of payment: Provided that where a voucher is defective in any respect or has been lost or destroyed, the Treasury, if satisfied with the explanation given by the responsible officer, may make such order, either dispensing with the production of a voucher or otherwise , as in the circumstances may appear necessary , and every such order shall be accepted by the Controller and Auditor-General as satisfying the requirements of this section.
The amount involved viz. R335.50 comprises mainly telephone accounts mislaid for which duplicates were not available from the Post Office . TRANSFER OF MOVABLE PROPERTY TO THE TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT: PARAGRAPH 14 (3) (PAGE 4). 4. Chairman) Have the required certificates been issued? -- (Mr. Muller) No , not yet, but it is expected to be finalised shortly.
(2) Subsection ( 1 ) shall be deemed to have come into operation on 1st April, 1964. " FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO THE TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT AND EXPENDITURE INCURRED ON SERVICES RENDERED IN THE TRANSKEI BY THE REPUBLIC : PARAGRAPH 6 (PAGE 2) .
REGIONAL AND TRIBAL AUTHORITIES: PARAGRAPH 30 (1 ) (PAGE 22).
5. Chairman) Has the necessary amendment to the Act also been effected in this instance? Yes , the following amendment (Mr. Muller) is contained in section 8 of Act 27/70 :-
2. Chairman) Mention is made of additional expenditure totalling R10,003,807 expended by the Republican Government on services rendered As copies of the Report to in the Transkei. the Republican Parliament are not readily available, could you please furnish particulars of the services concerned? - (Mr. Muller) The following Republican Departments and Votes are concerned : Department and Vote. Audit - Vote 22 ………………………. Bantu Administration and Development - Vote 45 ...... Cultural Affairs - Vote 7..... Community Development Vote 13....... Health - Vote 23....... Health: Hospitals and Institutions- Vote 24......... Vote 10....... Interior Labour · Vote 43 ....... Police - Vote 5..... Prisons · Vote 48.. Public Works - Vote 14....... Public Works - Loan Vote B ...... S.A. Bantu Trust……………………. Transport - Vote 6......... Total .............
"(1) The following section is hereby substituted for section 58 ofthe Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 : 58. Unless and until otherwise provided for by the Legislative Assembly the Controller and AuditorGeneral of the Republic shall examine , enquire into and audit the accounts of the Transkeian Government, including those of all the inferior administrative bodies referred to in section 46 and other local institutions of a similar nature in the Transkei , and all other statutory bodies in the Transkei , as well as those of all accounting officers and all persons entrusted with the receipt, custody or issue of public moneys , stamps , securities or stores , and the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1956 (Act No. 23 of 1956) , and the orders , rules and regulations in terms of section 10 or section 61 thereof shall govern the administration and control of the Transkeian Revenue Fund in so far as they can be applied and are not inconsistent with this Act: Provided that whenever in that Act or in any orders , rules or regulations thereunder the authority or approval of Parliament, the Treasury, a Minister or the Secretary of a Department or any official is prescribed as necessary for any act, or whenever any function is to be performed the relevant provisions shall be construed as referring to the Legislative Assembly or the appropriate Minister , Secretary or official of the Transkei. "
Expenditure. R 34,917
1,524,675 4,891 517 1,486,211
486,426 19 86 1,066,829 335,330 27,594 47,855 4,174,741 813,716 R10,003,807
TREASURY ORDERS FOR MISSING VOUCHERS : PARAGRAPH 11 (PAGE 3) . 3. Chairman) Could you please Committee on this paragraph? · Section 12 of the Exchequer and of 1956 requires the Controller
enlighten the (Mr. Muller) Audit Act 23 and Auditor346.
(2) Subsection (1 ) shall be deemed to have come into operation on the 11th February , 1966. " Wednesday , 6th May , 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESEN T. Messrs , R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela . Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and E. F. Niksch, Secretary for Interior in attendance . Mr. Niksch examined .
only represents a very nominal amount for such During 1967 this matter was an institution. discussed at Cabinet level and was deferred on two occasions . When I took over as Secretary of the Department in October , 1967 , I was that there was an faced with this situation amount of R5,000 on the Estimates and nothing had been spent. A thorough investigation was made and it appeared that during 1967 only eight youths were committed to reform schools or youth camps in the Republic from the Transkei , and in looking through the motivation of the past I saw that the envisaged expenditure just to start this youth camp would be in the vicinity of R24,000 . That to my way of thinking, I was not was just the initial expenditure . happy with that figure because it only provided for four employees who were going to be in There was a superincharge of the camp. tendent, an agricultural officer and two " induNow, in running a youth nas" or warders . camp, even if only for a small number of · inmates , a bigger staff is necessary take the kitchen staff and so on - Iand I think the R24,000 would have been inadequate. The matter was again placed before the Cabinet and attention was directed to the fact that to keep eight to ten youths at the camp would not warrant such expenditure . The Cabinet decided to defer the matter sine die. The idea has not been abandoned and if circumstances show at a later date that there is a necessity for a youth camp in the Transkei the matter will be reopened. -
REVENUE VOTE 4: SOCIAL PENSIONS , PARAGRAPH 23 (1 ) AND (2 ) (PAGE 11) . i Mr. Niksch, the percentage 6. Chairman) increase in comparison with the previous year in respect of the number of pensioners and beneficiaries as at 31st March, 1969 , is reflected as 8.578% whilst the monetary value of benefits show an increase of R139,419 or only about 5.25%. Can you please explain this ? Yes, Mr. Chairman, when you (Mr. Niksch) look at the figures it does seem strange that whilst pensions were increased (the value of the pensions paid out, that is) the percentage monetary value appears to be lower than the percentage increase in the number of pensioners . But statistics can be very misleading . It is a fact that new pensions are granted throughout the year and that whilst the number of pensioners increases it does not follow that the total value of pensions paid during the year will increase The nearer we come to the proportionately . close of the year this difference in the perSay for centage becomes more pronounced. instance that in the last two months of the year 2000 pensioners are added to the total number of beneficiaries , the amount so added only represent one - sixth of a full annual pension. This is quite a normal percentage difference. It is also a fact that pensions are paid out bi-monthly and that this system also tends to upset the balance in the percentage ratio. APPROPRIATION
ACCOUNT 23(3).
:
(Chairman) Supposing this has not been abandoned, how do the youths get to these camps ? Are they committed by the court? - (Mr. Niksch) Yes, the magistrate in dealing with juvenile delinquents will commit them to these camps . If we take it that there were only eight committals in 1967 , it does give strength to the argument that the time was not ripe for a camp such as this . - (Mr. R.S. Madikizela) So at the moment they send them out of the Transkei? (Mr. Niksch) Yes, they are committed to youth camps or reform schools in the Republic and the Transkei Government pays for their keep. There has been no pressure brought to bear on the Transkei Government by the Republican authorities to provide such an institution in the Transkei. If the number increases then pressure might be brought to bear to initiate such a scheme locally.
PARAGRAPH
7. Chairman) Of the amount of R5,000 voted under sub-head O- Government Youth Camps no expenditure was incurred . It is observed that the reason for this is that the project was abandoned . As the inclusion of this subhead on the Estimates must have been sufficiently motivated at the time , could you please enlighten the Committee on the reason for the (Mr. Niksch) abandonment of the project? Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think the first time that provision was made on the Interior Vote for a youth camp at Luchaba Drift was on the At that stage , when the 1967/68 Estimates. matter was placed before the Cabinet and it was decided to make financial provision for this , a case was made out but the Cabinet did not feel very strongly about this and that is why only nominal provision was made because we must admit that an amount of R5,000
Tuesday, 12th May, 1970 ( at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT. Messrs . R. Msengana ( Chairman) , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase (late arrival ) . Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and J.A. Burger , Secretary for Justice in attendance .
Mr. Burger examined . REVENUE VOTE 2 , PARAGRAPH 21 (2 ) , PAGE 9 , READ WITH MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS , PARAGRAPH 30 ( 2 ) , PAGE 22. 8. Chairman) Mr. Burger, there appears to be a rising incidence of theft in the Transkeian
347 .
be limited to a minimum. To furnish reasons as to why proper control was probably lacking in some of these cases would be difficult, and I can only refer to a few of the problems with which magistrates have to cope . In the first place there is the aspect of continual training of staff, a high rate of resignations and an increase in discharges resulting from misconduct. Whereas there were 82 trained seconded officials in the department at the end of 1966 there were only 63 at the end of 1969. In its last annual report the Public Service Commission referred to the high vacancy level in the service and pointed out that factors contributing thereto were the 42% rise in resignations from the service ( 179 as against 126 during 1968) , and it also referred to the 38% increase in discharges resulting from misconduct (80 compared with 58 in 1968). Each such case, whether it be as a result of the withdrawal of a seconded official , a resignation or a dismissal, results in the appointment of a probationer who has to be trained from the very start. The volume of work with which Transkeian magistrates have to cope shows a steady but growing tempo, and I would like to quote the following comparative figures :-
Government Service . Whilst the committee does not specifically desire to single out your Department as an example, it nevertheless feels that this tendency should be curbed. I believe that the lack of sufficient internal checks and controls prevailing in some magisterial offices has been brought to your notice by way of departmental, audit and other reports. As such lack of internal checks and controls is a contributing factor in most theft cases , what positive steps has your department taken towards eliminating this dangerous state of affairs ? (Mr. Burger) Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, yes, according to the paragraphs you have referred to contained in the Controller and AuditorGeneral's annual report for 1969 there were, during the year under review, four cases of theft of government moneys involving R731 , of which R474 was recovered , and twelve cases of theft of dipping account moneys by bureau clerks , involving R1,391 , of which R1,017 was recovered. My department is perturbed about this high incidence of the theft of public moneys and although it will be an almost impossible task to stamp out dishonesty completely, it is felt that with proper control and regular checks cases involving the theft of public moneys should
District
Mount Frere Cofimvaba Engcobo Mganduli
Revenue Amount Collected
1964
1969
R 85,661 72,232 167,152 49,555
R 107,944 111,997 235,741 95,538
Finally I would like to refer to the fact that in addition to their normal duties the magistrates had , over the last couple of years , to deal with voluminous tasks such as a general registration of voters, a Transkei general election, a population census , ploughing schemes , relief and distress schemes , etc. I have said that the department is perturbed about the high incidence of theft and that is indeed so . The departmental inspector who has inspected twelve offices since 1st January, 1969 , is continually on the lookout for signs of inadequate control or slackness in checking , which aspects are then taken up with magistrates . In addition to this , attempts are being made to allocate duties so as to facilitate better control whilst supervising and checking responsibilities are assigned to more senior officials. Regulations and circular instructions as regards the frequency and method of checking covers all facets of accounting and the handling of moneys , and it is trusted that the present cause for concern will become something of the past. Mr. Chairman, that is about all I can say in reply to your question. If there are any further questions you or the members may want to ask I shall endeavour to let you have a reply. - (Mr. R.S. Madikizela) What do you think is the reason for the high rate of resignations from the service? - (Mr. Burger) That is a difficult question because there are various and many reasons . It happens that a man just resigns without giving a reason. In other cases a man
Expenditure Number of Transactions
1964 R 7,213 15,639 20,292 4,995
1969 R 24,845 24,093 30,786 8,185
feels he can get another job with better pay. That, however, is not always the truth, because some of those people have reapplied for posts in the Service . We have had cases where people wanted to further their studies and have resigned for that reason. The human element is there and it is difficult to put the resignations. down to a definite reason . In the lower grades especially, where the people have not had much service, there is the tendency to feel they can find a better job elsewhere . I think that is the picture we find not only in one department, but in the whole Service , and not only in the Transkei but in the Republic as well . - (Mr. Madikizela) In many cases they are attracted by the insurance companies. - (Mr. Burger) Yes, we have had one example of that in Umtata. This man went to an insurance company because the prospects of better pay were there but he is back in the Department. - (Mr. Madikizela) How does the theft incidence compare with the Republic : Are you in a position to say? (Mr. Burger) No , Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I did not go into the matter. I am not in a position at the moment to give you comparative figures , but the Transkeian Public Service Commission expressed concern about it, I believe, and I think they said it is higher here than it is in the Republic. If that is so, I would put it down to more young clerks , more clerks with perhaps less experience, and much more work on the forks of the magistrates which makes it more difficult to exercise the
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control that is really necessary. If you have a number of clerks under your control who are trained , they know the job and the regulations and then it is an easy matter to exercise proper control , but where you have half-a-dozen junior clerks and you, as a magistrate , have to do a job and at the same time teach these junior clerks then it becomes difficult . That is why I have endeavoured to show what the responsibilities and duties of these magistrates are and I think the fact of continual training of staff is a contributory factor to the incidence We have tried and we are still enof theft. deavouring to rearrange duties to facilitate better control and to put checking duties in the hands of more senior people and I think we can expect an improvement . - (Mr. Madikizela ) Would you say the low rate of pay for these junior clerks could be a contributory cause? Isn't it a temptation to a man whose salary is a mere pittance to handle thousands of rand? (Mr. Burger) Temptation is always there , and I can quote cases where well -to-do people have been tempted and have helped themselves . As regards the salary these people are paid, I would not like to comment as that is a matter for the Public Service Commission . We have , had a general revision of salary scales fairly recently . All clerks benefitted but it is true that all public servants have to start at the bottom of the ladder. Wednesday, 13th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman ) , V.S. Reve, R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor , G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor , S.W. Pienaar , Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and F.W. Voges , Inter-departmental Accountant , in attendance .
who lived in the Border area and this Mr. Kettles has been declared insolvent in the meantime. All his assets have been sold and it is very doubtful whether the Transkei Government will be able to get anything out of that insolvent estate because it appears that the people who had a mortgage bond over his property claimed all the money that was recovered from the estate. The Vulindlela factory at the time had no mortgage so the chances are that we will lose R11,000 on that issue . That is over and above the R67,000 . A further R10,000 is still outstanding and from what we can make out it is owed by the Department of Bantu Education in the Republic to this Government. I think our chances are very good of recovering that amount. There is another R4,000 outstanding which we still have to recover from the Rietvlei Mission in Umzimkulu. There is uncertainty there as to whether they owe us R4,000 or R6,000 but we hope in the near future to recover the actual amount they owe us . That leaves us with another R8,200 which is made up of small amounts and it is not possible to say whether we are going to recover all that at this stage . From information which was given to the Accountant by the Department of Bantu Administration after the Vulindlela factory had handed over the affair to that Department , there are certain accounts outstanding and the Accountant has tried to collect some of these sums . One interesting one is in the case of Paramount Chief Poto who maintains he has paid that amount and we have no reason to disbelieve him . It occurs also in a few other cases and we are still trying to clear up that matter. The statements which we received from Bantu Administration are not 100% correct. To summarize , Mr. Chairman, I think good progress has been made and the chances are that by this time next year we will have recovered the total amount, minus the R11,000 owed by Mr. Kettles and another relatively small amount which we may not be able to recover at all as a result of incorrect statements submitted to us by Bantu Administration.
Messrs. Pienaar and Voges examined. GENERAL REPORT, PARAGRAPH 14 (2) (b) , STATEMENTS OF ACCOUNT, PAGE 4. 9. Chairman) Mr. Pienaar , it is observed from the summary of the statements of account for 1966/67 that Sundry Debtors amounted to R100,509 as at 31st March, 1967. What progress has been made towards the recovery of the Mr. outstanding amounts? · (Mr. Pienaar)
10. Chairman) In footnote No. viii mention is made of an amount of R45,000 due to the TransWas this amount paid? keian Government. (Mr. Pienaar) Yes, that amount has been paid over.
Chairman, on the whole I think fairly good progress has been made but the whole issue is rather confused and I am afraid I will not be able to explain it all to the Committee this morning. The fact remains that we can at the present moment constitute that we can already account for about R67,292 out of this figure of R42,000 of that is represented by R100,509. four houses which are at present really Transkei Government property and for which the Transkei Government is receiving rent every month, yet it stands here as a debt which still has to be recovered. The position is therefore not altogether clear in all these instances , but if we take that R42,000 as recovered already we can account for R67,000 at the present moment. There are other items which will give us quite a lot of problems before we can eventually say we have recovered it, if at all, because in some cases it seems it will be difficult to recover. R11,000 was owed by a Mr. Kettles 349 .
REVENUE VOTE 5, PARAGRAPH 24 (i) , READ WITH SCHEDULES I AND II PARAGRAPHS 24(8) and (9) , PAGE 14. 11. Chairman) Mr. Pienaar , the total number of cubic feet of timber handled at the logmills and the sawmill during the year under review, viz. 1,378,963, shows an increase in volume of 286,015 cubic feet compared with the previous year a percentage increase of 26% . The nett profit, however , decreased from R8,275 the previous year to R6,075 for 1968/69 . Can you please enlighten the Committee on the reason for this? - (Mr. Pienaar) Yes , Mr. Chairman , this is a rather complicated situation . Perhaps we should deal individually with these different schedules I, II and III, just to start with, and then I shall try to summarize later on to give you the general reasons for what has caused the lower percentage of profit. In the case
of Umtata sawmill we find that the percentage of loss the previous year, 1967/68 , was 2.48% of the total sold, and the percentage loss in 1968/69 was 2.06 % . Now, if one tries to analyse why that has happened one comes in the first place to certain costs such as operating, administrative and depreciation costs . In the case of 1967/68 the operating, administrative and depreciation costs amounted to 15.02c . per cubic foot. In 1968/69 it amounted to 11.23c . per cubic foot. If you look at the unit values at the opening and closing of these different financial years you will find that also has a bearing on the profit situation. For example , the unit value on the 1st April, 1967 , of the stock in hand then was 100.64c. per cubic foot; on the 31st March, 1968 it was 103.5c. per cubic foot ; on the 1st April, 1968 we opened with 103.5c. per cubic foot; and on the 31st March, 1969, we ended off with a unit value of 100.4c. per cubic foot. Now, that could be accounted for in many different ways - that is, the reason why your unit values , differed at different times - but the fact is you had to start off certain years with a different unit value which also incluenced your profit or loss at the end of the year. If you could have kept the same unit value all the time you would have had a completely different picture. I don't say that the unit values at the beginning or the end of any particular financial year has a bearing on the whole situation, but it has a bearing which we should keep in mind. In the logmills , for instance , the percentage profit for 1967/68 was 5.63% and in 1968/69 it was 3.68 %, so it was appreciably lower that year. In the first place again, operative , administrative and depreciation costs in 1967/68 amounted to 17.93c . per cubic foot, and in 1968/69 the figure was 18.38c . per cubic foot. Now, that could perhaps be an indication of inefficiency and bad management, but that was not necessarily the case. On the contary, I think we had an improved efficiency altogether and this higher cost was also partly due to higher salaries and wages paid during that year. The salaries of staff You and wages of labourers were increased. have the same situation with unit values at the beginning and close of each financial year. On 1st April , 1967 , we opened with a unit value of 32.9c . per cubic foot and closed on 31st March, 1968 , with a unit value of 41.2c . per cubic foot. On the 1st April , 1968 we opened with 41.2c . per cubic foot and on the 31st March, 1968, the unit value was 43.53 . per cubic foot. In other words , we had a difference in unit value from 1967 to 1968 of 8.3c . per cubic foot. In 1968/69 the difference in unit value from the beginning to the end of the year was 2.33c . per cubic foot. Now, if the 1967/68 difference of 8.3. per cubic foot was applied to the 1968/69 balance carried forward when we started the 1968 financial year, the profit for that year would have increased to R25,853 , or it would have given you a profit of 5.5% of the R468,900 which would then be the new total. That is just to indicate how the unit value can influence the whole outcome at the end of the financial year. In the same way, if the 2.33c . per cubic foot difference on the 1968/69 figure were taken for the 1967/68 stock carried forward, then your 1967/68 profit would be decreased to R10,628. This unit value is therefore a rather problematic
matter always influencing the situation. Now, Mr. Chairman, to give you the more straightforward reasons why the profits seem quite a bit lower for 1968/69 , we find that the log prices for timber delivered to the logmills were increased and the logmills paid the plantations R52,470 more than in 1967/68 for the corresponding volume . In other words , the planations received more money than in the previous year, and the logmills had a bigger outlay because their material cost more for the 1968/69 season. On the whole the logmills paid about R60,736 more to plantations during 1968/69. than they paid during the previous year , if you were to work it back to the same corresponding volume. In other words , the cost of the logs was higher. Transport costs were higher to a loarge extent, too, as a result of increased wages and so it cost more to remove logs from the plantations. The cost increased from 1.667c . to 1.9c. per cubic foot. That is a figure we usually get from Pretoria because it is difficult for us to work out the cost of transporting certain material , and the costing and working out of these things can be done much more accurately in Pretoria. We get our information from them and apply it to our conditions. In 1967/68 financial year it cost 1.667c to transport one cubic foot, and in 1968/69 it cost 1.9c . , so R2,700 more had to be paid in 1968/69 to transport an equal volume of timber which also pushes up the cost and lowers the profit. Now, as a result of the increase in salaries and wages, for the corresponding number of employees R22,200 more was paid out during 1968/69 to labourers and employees , so that also pushed up costs very appreciably. All these higher costs and higher expenditure, as I have tried to explain, gave us an average increase of 4c . per cubic foot on our production costs at the sawmills and this Umtata mill had to pay R24,430 more for a corresponding volume of timber than in 1967/68 . The Umtata mill itself had to pay R5,000 more for labour during that corresponding period so that it should be clear now, Mr. Chairman, that there are many factors which have come into play here and which have decreased the profits . The tariffs for sawn timber during that period had remained unchanged. It was only changed in 1969. In other words , we sold at the old prices That was although the costs were going up. also a factor in bringing profits down, so it should be clear that for the higher volume handled we were able to work at a lower cost than if we had worked the same volume as I should explain to the the previous year. Committee that in the logmills , for example , we were in the fortunate position that we could manipulate the stituation so that the logmills would never really suffer a loss , because if the logmills were to have a higher expenditure and the cost of producing timber from the logs increased continually, all that would happen would be that the planing mill would have to pay more to the logmill . The loss would eventually come at the end of the line , at the planing mill. If you keep that in mind we could perhaps add up all these profits and losses and subtract them and see what the final outcome is . If the loss from the planing mill is offset against the profit of the logmills then we will have a
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nett profit of R6,075. So despite our higher transport costs , increased wages and salaries and other costs , we can still show a profit which is an indication that our efficiency did not really suffer during that time . (Chief D.D.P. Ndamase ) May I know, Mr. Chairman, why the department did not find it necessary to increase the selling price , seeing the cost has risen? In that way the profits would not be reduced. - (Mr. Pienaar) There could be various reasons for that, but one of the important things is that we always have to keep in mind the market outside the Transkei and if we do not keep our tarrifs as low as possible we will not be able to sell outside at all. We have to be very careful with any increase in prices.
able to build up an industry which would be very valuable to the Transkei farmer because we have found that over the years 180,000 head of cattle die every year through poverty in the Transkei. That is a complete waste to the Transkei as a whole and we felt that if you were to take that loss which the Transkei farmer suffers annually and reduce that loss , then you have achieved something already, even though the factory may be showing an appreciable loss. It meant the Transkei farmer himself had not suffered that total loss , so the Transkei farmer nevertheless gained , although the factory showed a loss . However, that is neither here nor there . I think you want to know why these losses were suffered . I should explain to you that when this factory was established in the first place we also established a liaison committee consisting of members of the Transkei Government Departments of the Chief Minister and Finance and Agriculture , together with agents for the Transkei Government, and that was the Bantu Investment Corporation at the time . This liaison committe met regularly to discuss the management of this factory and to see to matters in general. From a very early stage the committee was faced with losses and we put our heads together and gave all kinds of reasons which we thought were responsible for the losses , but it was not always easy to remove these causes , and although we were aware of some of our problems it was not easy to solve them. For example , from very early on (deboning started in August, 1966) , on the 31st March, 1967 , within the first year of operation, we felt a bit uneasy about the whole situation and at the end of the financial year stock was taken of all the animals bought by the Transkei Meat Industry at this stage. It was a very
MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS : TRANSKEIAN DEVELOPMENT AND RESERVE FUND PARAGRAPH 26 (2) PAGE 20 - TRANSKEI MEAT INDUSTRY. 12. Chairman) Mr. Pienaar, from Reports of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Transkei Meat Industry it seems that deboning operations started in August, 1966 , and that accumulated losses amount to R129,222 at 31st March , 1967 ; R193,291 at 31st March, 1968, and now R252,388 at 31st December, 1968 , covering a period of two years and four months of active operations . In view of the enormous loss to the Transkeian Government could you please inform the committee: (1 ) What in your opinion was the cause of the ever -increasing loss ? (2) Was pressure at any stage brought to bear on the Bantu Investment Corporation to institute a thorough investigation into the activities of this venture ? If yes , what were their findings? If not, why not?
big undertaking and my department assisted the BIC to make sure we had an accurage stocktaking with the aim of establishing whether everything was in order as far as the stock was concerned, for example , dead animals disappearing which we could not account for. That is to indicate that we did not sleep on the problem and from the beginning we started to tighten up control . However, nothing important came out of that stock-taking and one of the very first reasons forwarded for the losses suffered earlier was that the buying was done at the wrong time of the year. In other words , the cattle were bought when prices were at their highest - that is , usually towards the end of the calendar year, November or December. Now, if we needed cattle at the time we had no option but to buy, and buying at that time of the year the Transkei farmer would benefit from the higher prices. But the deboning factory was not really intended as a charitable institution in the first place and it is wrong business to buy at high prices just to satisfy the producer, but that had to happen in any case because we only started coming into our stride at that time of the year and we had to buy then. From lack of experience , too , the agents also bought too many cattle but they expected that the supplies would dry up and they would find the factory without animals to slaughter, so they thought they would have to provide for quite a big stock which was perhaps not altogether necessary. The result was that
(3) Whether in view of the fact that the local manager of the scheme during the period ended 31st December, 1968 , retained in their employ with effect from 1st January, 1969, by the present managers of the scheme , viz. South African Meat Producers (Central Co- operative , Ltd. ) , was convicted of theft from the said present managers , any investigation was made of this person's activities prior to 1st January, 1969 , with a view to establishing whether or not similar malpractices also happened during this period ? – (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman, you are really asking a difficult question now because it is not easy to explain why all these losses took place . I would like to point out in the first place , though, that when this meat factory was first investigated years ago by an inter-departmental committee appointed by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the findings of the committee at the time were that in all probability a factory of this type would suffer losses during the first few years of its operation. The factory was therefore started in the knowledge that difficult times would be experienced at the start, but the idea behind the whole scheme was that we would eventually be 351 .
the whole thing was gone into very carefully. I don't think it was necessarily the BIC which was to be blamed in any respect, it was just that conditions made it extremely difficult and they could not overcome the problems at the time. Various things were considered · for example, the enlargement of the factory which was decided against eventually. That brings us back to the last question about the manager who was arrested as a result of dishonesty. That is a very difficult question to reply to. To be quite frank with you, towards the end of the period during which the BIC was the agent for the Transkei Government , the BIC itself was rather suspicious about the whole situation, but they were unable, according to their own statement, to lay their hands on the man and to prove there was any dishonesty going on. I think if it had not been for the new agent taking over at the beginning of 1969 then something would definitely have had to be done to get to the bottom of the problem, because we had suspicions about the whole thing, but the situation was resolved because when Vleis Sentraal took over - a powerful and well-organised firm with all the necessary staff they require - they were able to detail staff for weeks and weeks on end to go through every little detail and to investigate into every minute detail. As a result they were able to pin down the dishonesties committed by the previous manager, which I think the BIC was not in a position to do . They were not in a position to detail a man for a couple weeks or months on end to go through all the books and papers and to investigate every detail, as Vlies Sentraal eventually did (Mr. Muller) I may perhaps point out that this venture, as a business concern, was started off on a pessimistic note because in the memorandum of agreement no guarantee is given or requested that the undertaking will be a success or that profits will be made within a stated period, or at all. (Mr. Pienaar) No, as I said we realised it might not be sound business at all, but the real reason behind the deboning factory was that it would be something to assist the Transkei farmer to see if we could establish a market, not necessarily for his grade 1 animals, which he could always sell, but we were confronted with the situation that they were losing up to 200,000 head of cattle a year, as a result of poverty - not disease , and if you multiply that by R50 a head you will see what a terrific loss the Transkei farmer suffered every year. The idea was that we would try to draw off as many as possible of those animals and the instructions were that they were not to buy the best cattle. If you go through the minutes you will find that the intention was to buy the animal that was going to die on the hands of the farmer, take it to a holding area, feed it and dose it up, then slaughter it, and the value of the slaughtered animal might be R20 or R25, whereas it would have been nil. The Transkei farmer would thus have gained indirectly very much by this factory although the factory itself would continually be showing a loss. I know this is not good business, but nevertheless the idea was not such a bad one. (Chairman) Were the cattle bought at stock sales or from the individual farmer? - (Mr.
they bought many cattle at the wrong time at high prices. Now, that is something which was unfortunate but which one could forgive , because one would expect them to learn from experience in the future . We also found that in the beginning the organisation was not one hundred per cent. It was difficult for them to buy these large numbers of cattle and to keep them safely, with the result that in the first year we had a 10 % death rate which is comparable to the normal death rate in the Transkei. This was unexpected because they were kept under better conditions . This was also the result of the organisation not working effectively right at the beginning . Furthermore, we found the position that although we were aware of the fact that we had to buy carefully and at the correct time, it was not always possible to do so because if you wanted to give low prices then farmers would not sell and the factory had to run, (you could not close it down for a week or so) you very often had to buy at times and at prices which were not very favourable . Then it was realised that the through-put was a bit on the low side . They slaughtered 25 animals a day and it was realised that the scheme could hardly be profitable at that rate, and the rate would have to be increased , but that was one that of the things that also affected matters the turnover was too small to make a profit. Another thing in connection with the management of the cattle was that the only holding grounds they could get were far from the factory, so there was a lot of travelling and not so much direct control , which caused high transport costs and a high death rate again. That was also a contributorý cause . You further asked , Mr. Chairman, what was done and whether we asked the BIC at the time why the losses were so high, and whether they could take any steps to decrease the losses. The position is that the liaison committee met regularly and we considered the situation , and every time we confronted the manager of the factory together with the representative of the BIC onthe matter. Together we tried to come to some clarity as to why the losses were there , and we insisted on their trying to remove these causes as far as possible, but this was not always possible. Conditions were such that we had to accept losses at the beginning . We even went so far as to determine the prices which they could not exceed in buying. That again caused problems, because the buyer could only pay 12c. 1b. for a grade 1 and 8c. for a grade 2 animal, and he found that the trader and the butcher in the villages and people from outside were prepared to pay a higher price than the ceiling we had stated for the Transkei Meat Industry. So they immediately had a problem · that the whole thing was too competitive because they did not pay the same high prices that others paid. To indicate that we did try to decrease losses and did not just sit and do nothing about the whole situation, as a result of one of our meetings the Secretary for Finance wrote to the BIC on this matter and also called for more regular written reports or progress reports so that we could more readily be aware of the exact situation and how things were running at the time. Every time an audited statement was submitted to the liaison committee
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Pienaar)
Both at stock sales and from individual farmers by the agent of the Transkei Meat Industry. - (Chairman) Was there a guarantee that the prices which the agent told them they paid were the prices actually paid? (Mr. Pienaar) You mean to ensure there was no dishonesty between the buyer and the seller ? Yes, that was controlled by the manager - not by the Department. The manager was the only one in a position to control this and they convinced us that they kept a record of every animal purchased . The manager was the only one who could say whether they had paid too much for a particular animal or whether the right price had been paid. - (Chairman) The aim of my question was : Couldn't the agent say he had paid R70 for a certain beast whilst he had paid only R50? - (Mr. Pienaar) No , I don't think that was possible . He had to show he had spent so much money during a particular week on buying cattle . Where he bought from an individual he would have paid cash , but at the stock sales by cheque. - (Chief D.D.P. Ndamase) Wouldn't he have to give a receipt? O (Mr. Pienaar) To be honest, I don't know how that control worked. (Chief Ndamase) If A sells a beast to B, A has to issue a receipt to B. - (Mr. Pienaar) I don't think that would be practicable. If you went into an administrative area and bought from a man he would probably not be able to give you a receipt. (Chief Ndamase) That is why I say the agent should have a receipt or voucher to show he has paid. - (Mr. Muller) You mean a certificate? - (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman, I would not be able to tell you exactly how that worked , but I cannot imagine that the agents would allow their buyers that latitude to be able to squander thousands of rand in a week without any control . I do not know how they controlled it but I would expect them to have a proper control . - (Chief Ndamase) Is the liaison committee still in existence? - (Mr. Pienaar) Yes. (Chief Ndamase) I wonder if a tannery could be established in Umtata in order to reduce these losses? I understand that at present they have to send the skins and bones , etc. , outside the Transkei , whereas if they had a factory here to process the skins and bones , transport costs to outside the Transkei would be reduced. (Mr. Pienaar) I may tell you that all those things have been carefully considered , especially with Vleis Sentraal who have other factories in all parts of South Africa . All that has been gone into very carefully and it has not been written off completely. The ideas are still being considered and it would probably be a matter for the XDC to come in with a tannery, but the green skins and the bones are being sold at the present moment. All I can say is that the number of cattle being slaughtered at the abattoir does not really warrant a by-products plant. PARAGRAPH 26 ( 3) , PAGE 21 SURES .
in this instance for ex post facto authorities? (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman , this is also a long and difficult question. The management of a scheme of this magnitude and with such a short time in which to prepare for it presented many difficulties , and the amount of administrative work caused by it gave rise to various problems . You will remember, perhaps , that this scheme was more or less unexpectedly forced on the Department. It was decided to initiate the scheme at very short notice and it was not prepared well ahead . Now, some of the difficulties were the incomplete and outdated land registers . This necessitated the re-measuring of lands which placed an additional burden on the field staff and caused considerable delays. There was also the difficulty of the field staff, the farmers and the contractors to grasp the legal requirements when completing the necessary Acknowledgement of Debt forms . In some cases the wives or other relations signed the forms without the necessary Power of Attorney from the farmer . Alterations were made on the forms without being properly initialled . In some cases only portions of lands could be ploughed due to the terrain, dongas and stones . This necessitated the measuring off by chain of the ploughed portions of the lands. The influx of contractors with the result that more than one contractor was operating in the same administrative area. This gave rise to difficulties between contractors , farmers became confused and in many cases Head Office officials had to intervene to settle disputes . Apart from the administrative difficulties experienced with the scheme , which made proper control extemely difficult, the over- expenditure of the allocated amount can be attributed to the following : The persistence of the drought. Under normal conditions ploughing would have stopped at the end of October or the middle of November , but it had to be extended to the 13th December in order to plough for all the people who had applied for the service . Then there was the impossibility of obtaining weekly figures of areas ploughed in order to control the progress of the scheme. Many contractors were operating but only handing in their forms when they considered it advisable to travel to the nearest magistre's office . Due to the tempo at which the ploughing was done , the agricultural staff could not keep up-to- date records of the ploughing. In certain cases ploughing done in September was only finalised in December. Many applications for ploughing could not be carried out on account of the dryness of the soil and the unsuitability of the lands . This made it virtually impossible to establish the actual area ploughed on a weekly or monthly basis. These reasons , shortly, Mr. Chairman , gave rise to the fact that there was a terrific over-expenditure . To put it quite plainly it was not possible with our organisation at the time , to have up-to -date figures every day to be able to establish whether we had exceeded our allocated sum or not. As a result of these problems with land registers , and people measuring lands , and agreements with the different farmers not being completed within a week, and sometimes taking months to do it, we never knew what the backlog was . The organisation, to be honest, was not tip-top and could not give one hundred
RELIEF MEA-
13. Chairman) It is observed from this paragraph that ex post factor Cabinet approval was obtained for excess payments totalling R178,089 . As it is sound practice and a financial principle to obtain prior authority, why was it necessary
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per cent control. When we woke up we found we had ploughed much more land than we should have and we had overspent our allocation . The great difficulty was that we were not in a position to say at any time specifically that so much had been ploughed because the staff could not give us up-to-date figures . - (Chief Ndamase ) (Mr. Pienaar) Were the tractors clocked? No, there was no regulation like that because they were private tractors . The contract was
paid out by the magistrates in the districts . The magistrate should send in his accounts by the 8th of the succeeding month but it sometimes happened in this case that we got the account towards the 20th or 25th of the months . We first had to balance our books and allocate expenditure , and then we found only in April that due to this unexpected overspending in ploughing the fund had spent more than was The moment it was available at the time.
to plough at so much a morgen with no stipulaThe problem was with the tion as to time . areas ploughed and the claims not coming in in time , and the returns which the field staff sent in were incomplete , were not timeous and were unreliable , and we were not in a position to say what the position was. - (Chief Ndamase ) Had the contractors to send in any return to say what they had been doing, say , during the They did not submit week? - (Mr. Pienaar) that to us , but it was done at the magistrate's office and they could only claim according tothe certificate which was completed by the field staff and signed by the owner . - (Chairman) Whilst on that point, did it ever come to your notice that some of the tractor owners would undertake to plough the land of an illiterate person - say an area of eight morgen - and when he had ploughed only four morgen he found the soil was too dry, but he forced the illiterate farmer to sign that he had ploughed the whole area of eight morgen? - (Mr. Pienaar) No , that situation has not been brought to my notice . That is one of the problems which has cropped up recently - that the total land has not been ploughed - but the problem is that the person is illiterate and he should not really sign unless he can get someone to tell him what he is signing. However , that is not the responsiIf a person signs bility of the department. he takes the risk for what he is signing. (Chief Ndamase) Could the demonstrators not be of assistance to such people? - (Mr. Pienaar) If they are available they can help but this man should go to someone who can read and ask what he is signing . Last year the scheme went very well and there was proper control. It was just that it was the first scheme and it was done in a hurry and was difficult to control . It is quite wrong because I know it is Government money, but as in the case of the meat factory it was done for the benefit of the people and if it had been a good season the results would have been wonderful .
discovered, it was made good again. We usually try to keep estimates of what is expected to be paid out within a certain period and we see that funds are available, but in this instance the spending on ploughing was so much in excess of what we expected that we could not do anything because when this happened it was already a thing of the past and we could only try to remedy it as soon as possible . Friday, 15th May, 1970 (at 9 a.m.) PRESEN T. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and L. Cemane . Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and P. Jager, Acting Secretary for Roads and Works in attendance .
Mr. Jager examined. GENERAL REPORT, PARAGRAPH 7 , PAGE 2 , READ WITH PARAGRAPH 25 (1 ) (b) , PAGE 15 , · LOSSES , MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS . 15. Chairman) Mr. Jager , it is observed that although the number of accidents declined from 221 the previous year to 213 for the year under review, the nett loss to the Government rose from R23,351 in 1967/68 to R30,232 in 1968/69. To what would you ascribe the increase in the net loss , and isn't the accident rate rather high considering that road safety courses for drivers were organized? - (Mr. Jager) Gentlemen, as far as the first part of the question is concerned , I would say the increase could be ascribed to (a ) the steep rise in the cost of repairs . As a result of wage demands and the scarcity of qualified artisans , garages and body-repair shops have to pay higher wages to To cover their expenses retain their staff. and to show a profit, they have to charge the maximum for labour; (b) to the increased cost of materials and spares ; and (c) motor vehicles , which include trucks , tractors and motor graders , become more sophisticated and therefore repairs become more expensive . For instance , vehicles are now fitted out with high-pressure radiators which are better and stronger than the older low-pressure types and cost very much more to replace. The same applies to other components , such as suspension systems , wheel bearings , transmission, steering mechanisms , alternators which have replaced the cheaper generators , carburettors , fuel pumps and injectors . A break-down of the accident figures for the financial year 1967/68 , related to the different types of vehicles involved, shows that 90 trucks , 29 cars , 76 LDV's and 26 Tractors or bulldozers were involved; and for the year
STATEMENT 7 : BALANCE SHEET AS AT 31 MARCH , 1969 - PAGE 29.
14. Chairman) Mr. Voges , it is observed that under Liabilities an amount of R36,013.28 is reflected as being payments in excess of cash available . Can you please enlighten the committee on this? - (Mr. Voges) Yes , Mr. Chairman, I think it is not too difficult at this stage , having heard Mr. Pienaar's explanation on the excess amount spent on assistance to farmers . The over-expenditure on that item was the main reason why this overspending was caused in the fund. We usually try to avoid over-expenditure in any government account but particulars of this overspending were not known to us on the 31st March because these amounts were being 354 .
1968/69 58 trucks , 39 cars , 79 LDV's and 37 tractors or bulldozers . Although the number of accidents involving trucks decreased, the accidents were of a more serious nature . The number of accidents involving tractors increased . Special mention is made of these two different types of vehicles as their purchase prices are very much higher than those of cars and LDV's and consiquently repairs involving spares and labour are very much higher. It can thus reasonably be accepted that , although fewer accidents were reported during 1968/69, the cost of repairs could have risen, as in fact it did. In reply to the second question, the accident rate should not only be judged on the that is , 221 during number of accidents 1967/68 and 213 during 1968/69, but should be related to total mileage travelled over the periods in question. During 1967/68 vehicles travelled 4,390,012 miles and during 1968/69 4,507,928 miles. Vehicles travelled thus 117,916 miles more during 1968/69 than during the previous year, yet eight fewer accidents occurred, which must already be considered as quite an improvement. Let us now consider the picture of the number of accidents related to the total mileage travelled over the two years in question , and we find that the accident rate during 1967/68 was one accident per 19,864 miles travelled, and during 1968/69 one accident per 21,164 miles travelled. We see thus
be kept to a minimum, but here another snag was encountered. The Government Service Regulations at the time made provision for an officer to pay rental at certain percentages of his salary or at a certain percentage of the valuation of the property as assessed or reassessed by the Department of Roads and Works , which ever was the lowest. This meant that three rates of deductions had to be taken up on the master cards , but this difficulty was not insurmountable. The difficulty lay with the provision that rental could be paid at a certain percentage on the valuation of a property as assessed or reassessed by the Department of Roads and Works . As long as this regulation remained in force , officers could ask that the properties rented by them be valued or revalued as they were entitled to pay the lowest rental, and one had no means of comparing the rates until an assessment or re-assessment had been carried out. The Department of Roads and Works simply did not have the staff for valuating all the properties , therefore representations were made to the Treasury and the Public Service Commission to do away with the stipulation that rental may also be paid on the valuation of a property. After inter-departmental discussions , the representations were eventually referred to the Cabinet and a decision about the matter was arrived at during April , 1970 , in terms of which the houses were classified in two categories . The effect of this was that rental deductions would from now onwards be made on the basis of a percentage of the tenants's salary. Steps will be taken forthwith in consultation with the Controller and Auditor -General , and through the Chief Accountant, to place this whole matter on a sound footing. REVENUE VOTE 6 , PARAGRAPH 25 (5) , PAGE 18 SCHEDULE OF WORKS SPECIFIED SUMS VOTED AND SUMS EXPENDED DURING 1968/ 1969 MAJOR WORKS : DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.
that the picture is not so gloomy and that the accident rate decreased by 6 % . Thus the conclusion one must come to is that the Road Safety courses organized for drivers have made a favourable impact on the accident rate . GENERAL REPORT, PARAGRAPH 15 , PAGE 4 – RENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTIES. 16. Chairman) Mr. Jager, is there any further information you wish to offer, and what progress has been made towards placing this matter on a sound footing? · (Mr. Jager) Mr. Chairman, to give you some picture of the position, when the Controller and AuditorGeneral's office got in touch with this department during 1966 , in connection with the rental register, a record had been in existence for some years already. The information was available on rental files and the inter- departmental accountant's office was apprised regularly of new tenants , changes in payments , discontinuances , etc. , to enable him to deduct the amounts , as all officers received their salaries by cheque from Umtata . No schedules indicating the amounts collected were forwarded to the Department of Roads and Works for checking purposes and it was realised that , in order to keep a proper check, schedules of monthly collections would have to be made out and this information marked off on cards . With this in mind a card was designed in co-operation with the Accountant for control purposes . When this was in progress , the Accountant's office embarked on a course of mechanisation. Punchcard machines and, subsequently, computers were installed . The general idea was to feed the rental information in code to the machines and computers , to prepare a master card and to print the schedules for control purposes from the latter. By the nature of things , the information to be fed to the computers had to
17. Chairman) Mr. Jager, it is observed that although R105,000 was voted for Blythswood School , 2nd Stage , at Nqamakwe , no expenditure was incurred. What was the reason for this? (Mr. Jager) The nil return indicated opposite Blythswood School , 2nd Stage , is incorrect and should have been R45,000 . Unfortunately, this expenditure was included in the amount of R100,953 indicated opposite Blythswood School, 1st Stage . This amount is, in fact, the total expenditure on the first and second stages . The completed cost of the 18. Chairman) Ngangelizwe Secondary School , Umtata , is reflected as R57,619 as against the estimated cost To what is the increase due? of R42,000. (Mr. Jager) The Department of Education originally requested that six classrooms , an office and staffroom be provided at the Ngangelizwe School. This was later changed to eight classrooms and on the 30th January, 1967 , the Department of Education requested that provisions be made on the 1967/68 estimates for twelve classrooms . An amount of R34,000 was provided for on the estimates . During May, 1967 , the Department of Education further requested the provision of a domestic science room as the school was to become a high 355.
school. The 1968/69 estimates therefore, provided for a revised estimated amount of R42,000 . The additional amount of R8,000 was for 26 latrines (these were to have been of wood and iron structure, but were later changed to brick under iron) ; fencing of the site; fitting out of laboratory; and the domestic science room. It was then realised that the building did not conform to the requirements of a high school in that no provision had been made for a ViceThis was Principal's and a Clerk's office. provided at an estimated cost of R2,500 , although not being included in the estimated allocation of R42,000 . The Department of Education then requested that electrical current be provided at the school , as well as water from the municipal supply. These services , although provided, were also not included in the allocation Costs involved were :- Payment of R42,000. to Municipality - R1,000 for supplying current
to main board in building and provision of a 2-inch water connection to site boundary; wiring of school buildings - R3,700; water supply from municipal connection - R3,980 . The total costs of additional services provided amount to R11,180. The following can also be taken as contributory factors towards the over-expenditure :During this period this department was experiencing difficulty in acquiring building bricks. This resulted inthe works group havingto be withdrawn from the school and transferred to another job, where only repairs and renovations were involved. This resulted in the job taking longer to complete , as well as increased labour costs. The amount of R8,000 which brought the revised estimate to R42,000 was based on the original estimate of R34,000 on the 1967/68 estimates . The increased cost of materials and labour since 1967/68, amounting to approximately 6% per annum, was not taken into account.
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