Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. Sixth Session. First Assembly. 19th April, 1967 to 21st June, 1967
125 74
English Pages [498] Year 1967
Polecaj historie
Table of contents :
Front Cover
Transkei Electoral Law Amendment
The Interior, Policy Speech
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G M M (Minister of Education)
Oaths to New Members: Administration
(Third Reading)
Payment of Sum representing Indirect
MABANDLA, the Honourable Mr Z M (Minister of Roads and Works)
INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH
Private White Capital in the Transkei
20
46
Citation preview
A GOVT FUELS DEPT
GPD J тот
73
тва 1967
INDIANA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY DOCUMENTS DEPARTMENT BLOOMINGTON , INDIANA 47409
VT PUBLS DEPT A
Republic
of
South
Africa
Government
Transkei
EX UNITATE VIRES
Debates
of the
Transkei Legislative Assembly
Sixth Session
First Assembly
19th April ,
1967
to 21st
June ,
1967
NA
UNIVER
SITY
NOV1 3 1969
Elata Commercial Printers (Pty. ) Ltd. , Umtata
LIBR
ARY
******
Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly by the
*******
INDIA
******
No. of Copies Printed : 1,000 : R1.00 Price per Copy
Addr
Adjo Adm
Anno
Ap
Bi
Bil
Citiz Comm
Cond
Condo Creat
INDEX
A
Page ....
Address, Opening
1000
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.... Adjournment of Assembly.... Administration of Oath to new Members Announcements - Miscellaneous ....
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0000
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....
4,
8,
10,
75,
86,
92,
....
1
....
.... 464
....
4, 277
24,
41 ,
54
105, 231, 253
257, 289, 306 , 315, 326, 337 347, 377, 412, 421,
464
5
Appointment of Committees
B Bills : Notices of
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5, 209
Bills : Appropriation ....
....
(Second Reading) ....
....
....
....
(Committee of Supply)
....
....
.... (Third Reading) .... Transkei Electoral Law Amendment
....
(First Reading)
....
....
(Second Reading) (Committee Stage) ....
....
....
(First Reading)
....
.... (Third Reading) .... Transkei Government Service Amendment
(First Reading)
....
....
(Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) ....
....
(Third Reading)
....
....
.... 93,
99,
105,
123,
160 ,
171 ,
186 ,
197
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8
62,
69
135,
148
...
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.... 209
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.... 378 .... 388 .... 400
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1000
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.... ....
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.... 412
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.... 221 .... 257
....
0000
....
.... 266
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....
.000 277
Transkeian Government Service Pensions .... (First Reading) (Second Reading)
(Committee Stage) .... (Third Reading) ...
....
....
.... 0000
....
....
....
....
221
....
0000
....
....
.... 231 259
1000 266
....
Transkei Labour Laws Amendment
18
(First Reading)
....
....
...
....
....
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.... 277
(Second Reading) ....
....
....
....
....
....
....
.... 281
....
....
....
....
....
0000
.... 297
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....
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....
(Committee Stage) . (Third Reading) ...
.000 308
Transkei Liquor Law .... (First Reading) Reading) .... (Second
....
....
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....
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.... 348
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...
....
0000
....
393, 411
(Committee Stage)
....
(Third Reading)
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....412, 421, 440,
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.... 464
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0000
315
328, 337
446
Transkei Road Traffic
.... (First Reading) (Second Reading)
....
....
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....
0.00
(Committee Stage) ....
....
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356, 365, 379 .... 388 ....
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10.0
....
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7
....
209
(Third Reading)
C
Citizenship Rights of Transkeians in the Ciskei Commission of Enquiry into customs, conventions, etc.
Conditions of Employment at Lambasi Tea and Coffee Scheme Condolences. .... .... .... .... .... Creation of Sub-Chieftainship, Emboland Region, Qumbu District
....
238, 296
....
278, 284
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345, 348
D
Documents : Tabling of
....
....
....
Election of African Members to Village Management Boards .... Exemption from Payment of Additional General Tax
....
....
....
....
8,
54,
160, 337
E
Exemption of Higher Primary School Principals from Full -Time Teaching Expression of Sympathy - Illness of the Honourable Dr. T.E. Donges
263, 275, 277 **** 321
....
....
.... 353
....
.... 160
F
....
Full Independence to the Transkei : Granting of
....
203, 213, 222
....
203, 213,
G
....
Granting of Full Independence to the Transkei
....
222
H
....
Higher Primary School Principals : Exemption of : from Full-Time Teaching
.... 353
I
Illness of the Honourable Dr. T.E. Donges : Expression of Sympathy
....
Increase of Wages : Roads Department and Forestry Labourers
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.... 160
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312, 315
M
Messages Minister of
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5
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…….. 141
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123
Finance and Chief Minister, Policy Speech of .... .... .... .... Justice, Policy Speech of
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.... 93
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••••
.... The Interior, Policy Speech of Roads and Public Works, Policy Speech of
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Agriculture and Forestry, Policy Speech of .... Education, Policy Speech of ....
Motion : No - Confidence Motion : Notices of
....
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.... 112
157, 161 .... 181
26 ,
41,
54
8,
10,
197
.... 26,
41,
54
5, 209, 266, 308,
337,
365
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11,
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19,
N
New Members : Administration of Oath No-Confidence Motion Notices of Bills ....
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11,
19,
4, 277
0
Oaths to New Members : Administration of
Obituary
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4, 277 ..,..171
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.... 322
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.... 296
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.. Official Recognition of Opposition Old-Age Pensions
....
On-Consumption Facilities for Africans in Transkei Hotels .... .... .... .... Opening Address
66,
69,
75
1
Р
Payment of Sum representing Indirect Taxation into Transkei Revenue Fund
Policy Speech of the : Chief Minister
....
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238, 253, 274
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.... 93
Minister of Agriculture and Forestry .... Minister of Education .... .... Minister of Justice ....
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.... 141 .... 123 .... 112
Minister of the Interior
....
Private White Capital in the Transkei
....
157,
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300, 306, 308 .... 467
....
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.... Public Accounts : Report of Sessional Committee on ....
Purchase of Properties by Africans : Subsidy on
161
...
....
Minister of Roads and Works
80,
.... 181
81,
201
Q
Questions
Replies to
24,
86,
377,
434
....
118, 245,
291 , 326
R
Rail Link between Umtata and Kokstad
....
Rentals : Housing for Government Servants
....
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.... 334
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0000
.... 342
86,
24,
Replies to Questions
118, 245, 291 , 326
377, 434 ....
Report of Sessional Committee on Public Accounts
.. ....
....
.... 467
S
....
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325, 333
....
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335, 339
.... Sessional Committee on Public Accounts : Report of Sub-Chieftainship : Creation of, Emboland Region, Qumbu District .... .... .... Subsidy on Purchase of Properties by Africans
....
....
.... ....
.... 80,
Suspension of Member
....
....
81, 201 17, 33
54, ....
160, 337 .... 339
Sale of Land on Municipal Commonages to Africans Serving of Notice of Forfeiture of Land on Land-Holder
....
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....
.467 .... 209
T
.... .... Tabling of Documents Transkei Constitution Amendment Bill
....
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....
8, ....
....
INDEX TO MINISTERS' SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE POLICY SPEECHES.
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Paramount Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance),
Bills : Appropriation (Second Reading)
....
....
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.... 62
(Committee of Supply)
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.... 93
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.... 266
***
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.... 412
Transkei Government Service Amendment
257
(Second Reading) (Committee Stage) ....
....
Budget Speech : 62 - 64 Policy Speech : 93-97 Supply Vote 1 :
97-112
MDLEDLE, The Honourable Mr. B.B. (Minister of Justice). Bills : Transkei Liquor Law
(Second Reading)
....
....
(Committee Stage) ....
....
....
393
Policy Speech : 112 - 113 Supply Vote 2
: 113 - 118
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G.M.M. (Minister of Education).
Policy Speech Supply Vote 3
123 - 126 126 -. 141
MOSHESH, the Honourable Chief J.D. (Minister of the Interior). Bills : Transkeian Government Service Pensions
(Second Reading)
....
....
....
....
....
....
.... 231
....
....
....
....
....
....
....
.... (Committee Stage) .... Transkei Labour Laws Amendment
(Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage ) ....
.... 259
....
....
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.... 281
....
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.... 412
Transkei Electoral Law Amendment
Policy Speech : 157 - 160, Supply Vote 4 : 165 – 181
....
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....
....
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....
፧፧
(Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) 161 – 165
.... ....
.... 388 400
MADIKIZELA, the Honourable Mr. C.K. (Minister of Agriculture and Forestry). 141-143 Policy Speech
Supply Vote 5
143 - 157
MABANDLA, the Honourable Mr. Z.M. (Minister of Roads and Works). Bills : Transkei Road Traffic ....
....
....
....
....
....
....
.... 328
....
....
....
.... 356
....
(Second Reading)
(Committee Stage) .... Policy Speech : 181 - 183, 186 - 188 Supply Vote 6 : 188 - 201
INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH DURING 1967 ASSEMBLY .
Motion No
Subject Matter
1256
Official Recognition of Opposition
Pages. ....
•••• Subsidy on purchase of properties by Africans .... Railway Link between Umtata and Kokstad Serving Notice of Forfeiture of land on land holder
231
14 222
19
20 21 22 24
28 37 41 42 43 44
46
.... .... .... ....
69, 75 66, 80, 81 , 201 .... 334 .... .... 335, 339
.... .... .... Private White Capital in the Transkei .... Sale of land on Municipal Commonages to Africans.... Exemption of Higher Primary School Principals from full-time .... .... teaching .... .... .... .... .... ..... .... .... Old-Age Pensions
300, 306, 308 325, 333
Exemption from payment of Additional General Tax
.... .... 203, ....
...
Increase in Wages - Roads Department and Forestry Labourers .... .... Granting of Full Independence to the Transkei .... .... Ciskei in Citizenship rights of Transkeians .... Rentals Housing for Government servants... Election of African members to Village Management Boards On-Consumption Facilities for Africans in Transkei Hotels .... Conditions of Employment at Lambasi Tea and Coffee Scheme Commission of Enquiry into Customs, Conventions, etc. Payment of sum representing indirect taxation into Transkei Revenue Fund .... .... .... .... ....
.... ....
263, .... .... ....
.... 353 .... 322 .... 321
312, 315 213 ,
222
238, 296 .... 342 275, 277 .... 296
345, 348 278, 284
238, 253, 274 .... 209 Creation of Sub-Chieftainship : Emboland Region, Qumbu District ....
TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION - 1967 .
The sixth session of the Transkeian Assembly opened the in Legislative Assembly Hall at 10.30 a.m. on
weg aanvaar omdat ons glo dat dit die enigste beleid is wat ' n billike en regverdige oplossing bied in ' n land soos Suid-Afrika waar verskillende afsonderlike volke aanwesig is. Dit verseker selfbeskikkingsreg aan die Bantoe-volke in die dele van ons land wat aan hulle behoort net soos dit die witman se selfbeskikkingsreg verseker in sy eie deel van die land . So kan elke volk uiteindelik soewerein wees in sy eie gebied en oor sy eie volks belange. So kan goeie buurskap ontwikkel en uitgebou word en so ook sal daar gelykwaardigheid tussen die afsonderlike volke tot stand kom. Dit is
WEDNESDAY, 19TH APRIL, 1967. Prayers were read .
The
Government
Notice
summoning
the Assembly was read . The Chairman announced the Honourable Mr. B.J. Vorster , Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa . TOESPRAAK VAN SY EDELE DIE EERSTE MINISTER VAN DIE REPUBLIEK VAN SUID-AFRIKA .
kragtens hierdie beginsels dat Suid-Afrika ook nie afkeurend staan teenoor die vrywording van die swart volke van Afrika buite ons lands grense nie . Ons in SuidAfrika het groot begrip vir hierdie strewe want dit het ons ontwikkeling en stryd van meer as 300 jaar gekos alvorens ons ons eie vrye onafhanklike Republiek van SuidAfrika in die jaar 1961 tot stand kon bring.
Meneer die Voorsitter en Lede van die Wetgewende Vergadering :
Dit is vir my ' n besondere genoee vandag hier teenwoordig te wees by opening van hierdie Sesde Sitting van Eerste Wetgewende Vergadering van Transkei .
om die die die
Ten opsigte van die Bantoevolke in Suid-Afrika en die Republiek se verhouding teenoor hulle, het die Regering van die Republiek ' n diepgewortelde oortuiging. Dit is dat hy met die verlening van selfregering aan die Transkei en ander volke , ' n besondere verantwoordelikheid het teenoor die Bantoe burgers van die Bantoetuislande en ook teenoor Suid-Afrika as geheel . Ten gevolge van hierdie verantwoordelikheidsbesef, glo ons--
Dit sal verstaan word dat die Eerste Minister van die Republiek nie dikwels die opening van ' n Wetgewende Vergadering kan waarneem nie , maar ek is bly dat die Staatspresident my tog vanjaar aangewys het om die plig uit te voer, want dit skep ' n goeie geleentheid dat ek gou na my ampsaanvaarding met u hier in aanraking kan kom .
(a) dat elke volk en sy lede hard moet werk om sy toekoms te bou op sy eie tradisies , taal , kultuur en beskawing.
Die Transkei het die afgelope paar jaar in besondere mate die belangstelling geprikkel van alle denkende mense in die Republiek van Suid-Afrika , maar beslis ook van baie mense buite ons eie lands grense in Afrika en oorsee . Hierdie besondere
(b) dat die Regering van die Republiek elke Bantoevolk sal help in sy ontwikkeling maar nie as 'n hulpelose wil dra nie;
belangstelling is ongetwyfeld opgewek deurdat die Regering van die Republiek met die verlening van selfregering aan die Transkei , ondubbelsinnig bewys gelewer het van sy beslistheid , naamlik -
(c) dat onafhanklikheid nie iets is wat oorhaastig moet kom nie, maar dat die verwerf moet word en tot stand moet kom wanneer die land en sy mense voorbereid is daarvoor;
dat die toepassing van sy beleid van afsonderlike ontwikkeling in SuidAfrika vir hom volkome erns is;
(d) dat ' n land se bodem en hulpbronne ontwikkel moet word ter bevordering van ekonomiese selfstandigheid omdat dit vir staatkundige onafhanklikheid van groot belang is ;
dat hy glo aan die selfbeskikkingsreg van afsonderlike volkere , ook in Suid-Afrika waar verskillende Blanke volksgroepe nog en nie-Blanke dieselfde gebied bewoon; dat die Republiek as goeie buurman bereid is om die Bantoe-volke in ons midde ten volle by te staan en te
van ' n land (e) dat die burgers geskoold, opgevoed en opgehef moet wees om die stabiliteid van ' n staat wat op wet en orde
help in die verwesenliking van hulle eie volksontwikkeling .
gegrondves is , te verseker ; ( f) dat as
Suid-Afrika het hierdie beleid gaande-
1.
die fondamente van die
H
be At
hierdie op staatstrukture eie manier stewig gele word, daar tot voordeel van die groot volkerebuurskap , goeie gemeenskap verdraagsaamsamewerking en heid tussen die verskeie volke verwag moet word.
finansies kontrole uit
oor alle
aktiwiteite
van die Transkeise Regering. Dit is my oortuiging dat goeie finansiele kontrole oor staatsfinansies en die handhawing van streng finansiele verantwoordelikheid 'n stabiele en ordelike staat gebou moet word. Dit is verblydend dat die Transkeise Regering geen tekens toon van onverantwoordelikheid of kwistigheid met betrekking tot die hantering van staatsgelde en staatseiendom nie.
Omdat dit ons uitgangspunt en strewe sien ons die ontvoogding van die Bantoevolkere in Suid-Afrika , en dus ook van die Transkei , as ' n ewolusionere groeiproses . Daarin sal u, die lede van hierdie Raad en die leiers van die Transkei , die geleentheid he om te bou aan die toekoms van u land en volk, met die simpatieke is ,
I am confident that this Legislative Assembly will strengthen the hands of its Government in its efforts to foster and ensure responsibility, honesty and integrity in the handling of public moneys and Government property even at the lowest levels of administration.
hulp en leiding van die Regering van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika. In hierdie proses is dit die bedoeling om geleidelik meer sake en groter verantwoordelikhede aan u oor te dra namate u in staat en toegerus is om hierdie verantwoordelikhede te aanvaar en
It is also evident that the lower administrative bodies in the Transkei ,
doeltreffend te behartig.
such as regional and tribal authorities, are showing good progress and are to an increasing extent making an active and important contribution in community affairs such as the provision of school facilities , road development, administration of lands , the services , agriestablishment of clinical
Dit is vir my verblydend om te kan getuig dat die resultate wat dusver reeds in die Transkei behaal is , die korrektheid van ons strewe, SOOS so pas deur my geskets , bewys . Daar is ' n gesindheid van vrede , orde , wetsgehoorsaamheid en vooruitgang in die Transkei en die verhoudinge tus sen die verskillende bevolkingsgroepe is goed. Ek is beindruk deur die wyse waarop u, die lede van hierdie Raad, u van u verantwoordelikhede kwyt, asook van die wyse waarop die Kabinet van die Transkei en die amptenare van die Transkeise administrasie hulle bestuursverantwoordelikhede met erns en toewyding uitvoer.
cultural planning, dipping services and other activities of a similar nature. Tribes in the Transkei are also displaying an increasing interest in maintaining contact with their urban compatriots as is evident from the large increase in applications by chiefs for the recognition of urban representatives . In regard to staff, the Government of the Transkei can look back upon a year of steady progress . The Public Service
U Regering het ook op grond van besluite wat vantevore deur hierdie Wet-
Commission and the Transkeian departments are fully alive to the importance of their task of training. A notable achievement in this regard is the fact that, of the 2,920 posts in public service, 5,999 in education and about 12,852 labourer's posts in the Transkeian Government Service , only about 359 posts are filled by White officers and 53 posts by White teachers .
gewende Vergadering geneem is , vertoe tot die Regering van die Republiek van SuidAfrika gerig in verband met die oorhandiging van verdere funksies aan die Transkei. Die versoeke het ge gaaa oor aangeleenthede soos Gesondheid , Inligting, die Padvervoerraad en Padmotordienste en sekere Polisiestasies in die Transkei. Dit is nie nou die geleentheid om te hierdie aangeleenthede breedvoerig bespreek nie , maar ek kan net meld dat dit
The Department of Justice controls the offices of the District Magistrates in the 26 magisterial districts of the Transkei . In addition to administering justice in the Transkei , all District Magistrates also act as Receivers of Revenue of the Government of the Transkei. As senior government
die beleid van die Regering van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika is dat geleidelik meer funksies en verantwoordelikhede aan die Transkeise Regering oorgedra kan word namate u in die vermoe is om dit doeltreffend
representatives in their respective districts , they also have an important share in all developmental , welfare, tribal and administratives activities in their districts.
te hanteer . Hierdie spesifieke versoeke van u word tans deur die betrokke ministers en departement van die Republiekeinse Regering ondersoek en mettertyd sal my Regering dit simpatiek oorweeg .
As part of its programme of training , the Department is also actively engaged in training citizens of the Transkei in law, and from this year five officers are receiving full- time training in law at the University College of Fort Hare. It is also planned to place the first two Xhosa magistrates in charge of two district magistrate's offices during the coming year.
Meneer die Voorsitter en Lede , dit is miskien gepas om by hierdie geleentheid ' n kort oorsig te gee van die bedrywighede van die ses Departemente wat in die Transkei gestig is .
Die Departement van die Hoofminister en van Finansies oefen steeds doeltreffende
2.
The Department making special efforts
of to
tion in the Transkei has been expanded considerably, a new sawmill has been put into operation and
Education is improve and
raise standards of teacher training , to make up the considerable backlog in regard to school buildings and to expand all educational facilities to accommodate the constantly increasing number of students .
improved facilities have been installed at the planing mill for the more effective processing and utilisation of timber . Soil conservation and rehabilitation are coming to be accepted with increasing enthusiasm by the citizens of the Transkei , and the beneficial in greater results are reflected
A special third-year teacher's course has been introduced , a permanent in- service training course for teachers has been instituted and technical training has been initiated by the institution of departmental evening classes in anticipation of the new to be Technical College which is due to erected during the coming year.
productivity. Pioneering work is being done in stepping up agricultural production , and the promising co-operative agricultural movement which is developing deserves to be expanded actively to serve your farming community
New teachers ' salary scales have been introduced as from 1st April to bring salaries into line with the increased scales for Bantu teachers in the Republic. This will involve additional expenditure amounting to R630,000 during the 1967/68 financial
and promote its productivity. The major Lubisi Irrigation Scheme is approaching completion and further irrigation schemes are being planned. Stock is being improved by means of better breeding methods , better feeding conditions and more efficient veterinary services , and the first
year. The Department of the Interior continues to look after the interests of Transkeian citizens and to protect their rights , whether in connection with the canalisation of labour , relief measures for those in distress , the occupation of land or the establishment of organisations to serve
meat factory in the Transkei , which came into operation in August , 1966 has placed the meat industry on a new basis .
the best interests of the community. A number of women's organisations have been established. In addition , the following have been registered: A Cripple Care Association for the Transkei , a Child Welfare Society for Umtata and an Association for the Combating of Tuberculosis. Appreciable progress is also being made with the establishment of a sheltered employment project at Efata and a children's home at Cala . During
1966,
more
than
New ground is also being broken with the planting of tea , coffee and other remunerative industrial crops . It cannot be stressed too strongly that the agricultural industry with its various branches is of the utmost importance to you. Agriculture is a primary industry, not only because it supplies food for the human animal population, but also because it can produce raw materials for industrial processing. The Transkei has been said by my predecessor and others to have great agricultural possibilities . I repeat this statement and would express the hope that your Government and the departments concerned will do everything in their power to explait your agricultural potential to the full so that your yields may be multiplied. This will heighten your viability and promote your progress as a nation .
160,000
workers were employed outside the Transkei ., As a result there has been an estimated inflow of R9,000,000 into the Transkei . An important milestone was reached when land which was registered in the name of the South African Bantu Trust as at 30th May , 1963, was transferred , with a few exceptions , to the Government of the Transkei on 1st April , 1966 . The prosperity of the Transkei is dependent, in the first place , on its primary industries , namely agriculture, forestry and stock breeding , and in these industries the possibilities and potentialities of the Transkei are particularly promising. your
In regard to roads , the Transkei Roads Act which was passed during the 1965 session of this Assembly, enabled the Department of Roads and Works to centralize all roads activities in the Transkei under single control and to lay down standards in accordance with the needs arising from conditions in each area.
Department of Agriculture and Forestry, is quite rightly giving priority to the conservation and development of the country's soil and stock. Important progress is being made in these fields , as is evident from the following: -
It may rightly be claimed that marked progress has been made in the sphere of road building and that the condition of the 4,800 miles of secondary roads and 900 miles of main roads which fall under the Department is constantly being improved.
Your
Government,
through
As
The area under commercial afforesta-
3.
regards
its
Works
Section, the
Department has embarked on an extensive building programme on its own behalf and for other Transkeian departments . These projects include numerous school classrooms , a Teachers' Training College , a Technical College , an administrative centre in Umtata and a number of offices in the various districts .
THURSDAY , 20TH APRIL . 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
I have tried to give a brief survey of the activities of the various Government departments in the Transkei . During the next few weeks the budget for the current financial year will be submitted to you for your careful consideration , and you are sure to examine all the activities of your Government more closely .
ADMINISTRATION OF OATH TO NEW MEMBERS .
THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman , hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , the following communication addressed to the Chairman of the Legislative Assembly has been received :-
It is also the intention of your Government to introduce , during the present session , legislation relating to the amendment of the Government Service Proclamation and the Transkeian Authorities Act, as well as to matters concerning liquor , pensions and land .
"Dalindyebo , Nyandeni Bye-elections - 12/4/67.
and
Qaukeni
"I have to inform you that on the 12th April , 1967 , Stanford Bacela of Cenura , Mqanduli , Ramsay Madikizela of Ngqeleni and Maxabiso Sobahle of Tabankulu district were duly elected members of the Transkei Legislative Assembly to represent respectively the electoral divisions of Dalindyebo, Nyandeni and Qaukeni · (Signed) ' Electoral Officer' Transkei ."
were granted self-government You three years ago , and in the life of a nation three years is a very short time . A long road still lies ahead of you . Your greatest and most difficult task is to develop your towards greater prosperity and country ic om on independence . ec
THE CHAIRMAN : At this stage I will ask those members to come forward accompanied by two members of the Assembly each.
such as the Outside authorities , Government of the Republic , can give important assistance in the field of economic development. It is also the intention of my Government to do so through bodies created specially for this purpose , such as the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Xhosa Development Corporation . But the fact remains that in any country true progress must be sustained by the nation's own efforts .
THE SECRETARY : The three chiefs who are to be sworn in are Chief Godfrey Chief Danisile Gobidolo and Mabandla , Acting Chief David Mrazuli. The following members took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly:Acting Chief David Mrazuli , Chief Godfrey Mafu Mabandla, Chief Danisile Gobidolo Mr. Maxabiso Price Sobahle , Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Stanford Bacela.
A country can prosper and achieve economic independence only if its own citizens are prepared to work hard, to produce more and to increase efficiency . I hope that you will inspire and educate your citizens to achieve these objectives.
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chairman and Members , in conclusion I wish you a successful session . May your deliberations be fruitful and be characterised by wisdom and a sense of responsibility. May you also make an important contribution in fostering the mutual confidence and respect which are so necessary for good-neighbourliness between the peoples of South Africa.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , there will be a police medal parade at the Rotary stadium on Friday, 21st April , at 2.15 p.m. All members are invited to attend this ceremony . There will therefore be no sitting on Friday afternoon.
It is proposed to accept notices of motion from private members up to and including Monday, 24th April , 1967. Thereafter private new notices of motion will not be allowed on the order paper except with the consent of the House . Private members are therefore advised to prepare their notices of motion for submission not later than Monday, 24th April , 1967. It is also proposed to adhere to the past practice of replying to questions on Tuesdays . Members may therefore submit notices of questions to the Secretary.
I pray that Almighty God , our Father, will in His wisdom lead and guide you in your work and deliberations . On behalf of the State president of the Republic of South Africa I now declare this Sixth Session of the First Legislative Assembly of the Transkei duly open .
The House adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday , 20th April , 1967 .
4.
services of the Transkei for the financial year ending the 31st day of March , 1968 .
MESSAGES .
THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the following messages have been received: -
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , to which constituency does this front-bencher belong?
"Chief Minister Matanzima , Legislative Assembly , Umtata "May Almighty God bless opening your Assembly by Honourable Prime Minister Vorster Stomford Mgudlwa” "Chief Minister and Assembly - God's and successful sessions . blessing Llewellyn Forward March, Transkei Ncwana" Assembly , Legislative " Chairman , Umtata - Greetings . We wish Chief Minister , his Ministers and Members of Parliament continued good health during session . May wise counsel and constructive legislation for the people be enacted. Be guided by your faith Q. Monwabisi , Steyn's Corner in God House , Bizana"
Excuse me, hon . THE CHAIRMAN : hon. member, we are still on Item 6 on the order paper. If there are no other notices of bills we shall go on to Item 7. NOTICES OF MOTION. 1.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of according the official opposition in the Transkei Legislative Assembly official recognition under the same principle as that of the Republic of South Africa.' 2.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , hon , paramount chiefs and hon . members , I propose that the following standing committees, composed of the following hon . members , be appointed by this House: (1) A committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements . The following members will constitute that committee :- The Minister of Education (Chairman) , Minister of Justice , Chief D. Mditshwa, Messrs . K.M. Guzana and C.S. Mda .
3.
4.
5.
Does
the
Mr.
N.
Jafta gave notice
to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to construct a railway link between Umtata and Kokstad ."
shall now take
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think there is a slight omission in that the hon . the Chief Minister has proposed membership of committees , he has not been seconded, nor has the House accepted . I stand up now to second the membership of the respective committees. CHAIRMAN :
Mr. L.T. Mazwi gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of providing suitable accommodation for all its employees in the Forestry section of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry ."
(3) A Committee on the Business of the House , consisting of the Chief Minister (Chairman) , Minister of Roads and Works , Minister of Agriculture and Forestry , the Chairman of the House , Messrs . Z. Chemane and K.M. Guzana .
THE agree?
Mr. L.T. Mazvi gave notice to move: -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing a Wage Determination Board for the Transkei ."
(2) A Committee on Public Accounts consisting of the following members : - Mr. R.M. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca , J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu .
We
Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Govemment to extend a 75% subsidy to those Africans who purchase properties in the residential and business centres in terms of the Zoning Proclamation applicable to the towns and villages in the Transkei ."
APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES.
THE CHAIRMAN : Item 6 on the paper.
Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-
6.
Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of summoning the land holder together with the local headman in surveyed areas with a view to serving the notice of forfeiture of land personally on the land holder and explaining its exigencies . "
House
THE MEMBERS: Agreed . NOTICE OF BILL.
7. THE CHIEF MINISTER AND MINIS TER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Friday, 21st April , 1967 , I propose to introduce a bill to apply a sum not exceeding R18,937,000 towards the
Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of creating an Upper House of chiefs and a Lower House of representatives in the Transkeian Parliament. "
5.
8.
13.
Mr. G.A. Sasa gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Ass cmbly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government to relax the influx control regulations to enable the Transkei citizens to seek work anywhere in the Republic ." 9.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making small land plots available for sale to Bantu buyers in all municipal commonages zoned for occupation by the Bantu ." 14.
Mr. K.M. Guzana gave notice to move : -
"That this House has no confidence in the Government."
10.
Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-
Mr.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish a University in the Transkei ."
THE CHAIRMAN : Before we proceed there is a notice of motion by the hon . the Chief Minister, seconded by the hon . Mr. Guzana , that the debate on the motion of no confidence should take place on the 24th April , 1967. Does the House agree?
MR . L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , I am interested to know who is this frontbencher on the other side , and to which constituency he belongs and whether he has taken the oath.
THE MEMBERS: Agreed . 16.
THE CHAIRMAN : To help you , hon . member, he is here in his official capacity. He is a secretary.
MINISTER:
He
is
my
17 .
The Chairman of the Committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements and the Business Committee gave notice of meetings of their respective committees .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , in view of the fact that members may not all be here all the time I request that a roll call be strictly kept by the Whips , because it will waste time if I have to do it myself.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I second this all-embracing notice of motion and will interpret it as liberally as it is put. is not a
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : It would appear that there is no whip on the Government side and we have not been told who he is .
to THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, help you with your question , look at Rule 53. Are there any more notices of motion? 12 .
Mr.
N.
Jafta
gave
Mr. K.G. Nota gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly. the Government should consider the advisability of raising stipends of chiefs and headmen who are not members of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to a minimum of R60 per month ."
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , we are still dealing with motions , Sir. In view of the fact that the hon . the Leader of the Opposition has introduced a motion of censure on the Government I move that the rules of this House be suspended in order that this motion should be given priority , and that this motion be discussed on Monday, 24th April, 1967 .
It
Mr. K.G. Nota gave notice to move: -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of paying compensation to all persons who have their huts or buildings removed as a result of rehabilitation ."
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think we should get a proper reply . If it is asked of the Chair that he explain , we would be happy if we could get the correct answer to a question .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: notice of motion . It is agreed .
C.S. Mda gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of repealing Proclamation R400 of 1960."
Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move :-
THE CHIEF messenger.
Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of grading schools in such a way that in the higher primary schools a principal should be exempted from full time teaching so that he should be able to carry out the work of a principal ."
" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of appointing an African as Secretary of the Department of Education in the Transkei ."
11.
Mr. A.M. Raziya gave notice to move :-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You were told last year.
notice to move : -
MR . RAJUILI : They are trying to cover the fact that they have no Whip.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow private White capital in the Transkei ."
THE CHAIRMAN : You are out of order. The House will now adjourn .
6.
Both these chiefs were on the threshhold
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday , 21st April, 1967 .
of their careers and had only recently taken their positions as leaders of their people. In the Assembly they were regarded as young men who had a bright future . They were reserved people and I can say without any fear of contradiction that they were seldom heard in the Assembly ; but from observation it was clear that they had a future as far as national affairs were concerned. The late Chief Mrazuli was chief of the AmaNqabe clan in the Mqanduli district; and the late Chief Mtirara was chief of the Amahala clan in the district of Umtata . The people whom they led have suffered a great loss . Their families have suffered a loss and it is only right for the Assembly to send messages of condolence to their families .
FRIDAY, 21ST APRIL, 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
CONDOLENCES.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I would request that in view of the fact that the hon . the Chief Minister is not in the House at the present moment, this item be stepped down until he comes in. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chaimman , hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , I stand up to speak to these motions of sorrow and regret. Firstly , to speak to the motion relating to the death of the late Dr. Verwoerd , who passed out suddenly , quickly and in a manner which could not be stopped even by our scientific knowledge. The circumstances of his death are a comment on the wisdom of Man in preserving life , and that Man cannot intervene where God has made a decision . One would have thought the place of his death was the most secure corner in the Republic of South Africa, but Fate cannot be obstructed in its objective . It is with regret that his death should be a warning to all of us to take more care in protecting the lives of those who are leaders . I do feel that apart from the fact that Dr. Verwoerd was the Prime Minister of South Africa, he was also a family man , and one can imagine the scorching tears
Agreed to.
THE CHAIRMAN : As the hon . the Chief Minister has just come in we can go on with this item . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , I wish to move as an unopposed motion that this Assembly pays tribute to the memory of the late Dr. the Honourable Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make use of this opportunity early in this session to recall the tragic assassination of the late the Honourable Dr. Verwoerd at the hand of a dastardly madman , whilst the House of Assembly in Cape Town was in session and whilst this House was in recess . Sir, we have lost a very great man and a friend . He was richly endowed with gifts of intellect, determination, singleness of purpose , thoroughness and personality. He had the courage of his convictions and was not afraid to put into practice the policy of which he was the architect and which we are now successfully implementing in the Transkei Today. His premature death was made doubly tragic by the fact that he was not spared to see the result, which we are now convinced will redound to his credit, of his policy . Time will undoubtedly prove that this great leader , this great statesman , was absolutely correct in his solution to the complex problems of this common fatherland of ours . Mr. Chairman , representatives of this Government attended the late Dr. Verwoerd's funeral and were deeply moved at the poignant scenes as people of all races and all walks of life unashamedly mourned the sudden. and tragic loss of their great leader. Our thoughts also go out to his partner in life to the wife who stood by his side throughout many years of his career → Mrs. Verwoerd. We pray that the Almighty God will sustain her and her family.
that must have been shed by his wife when the life ofher husband was suddenly snatched away from him and in a matter of moments he was no more . We mourn his sudden death because we know that a member of a family was taken away from his family . We say that his family - that is , his wife and should bear up for, whilst Man children proposes , God disposes . May it not happen again that statesmen and leaders are removed by the hand of people who are of no consequence at all .
Mr. Chairman associate myself
and hon . with the
members , I sympathies
expressed in connection with the passing of two chiefs , Chief Ndlelalula Mrazuli and Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara . One could go as far as to say that these two men were on the threshhold of their work, but they had not yet warmed up to show their worth . We cannot say definitely whether they were going to carry their burden to the very end when the warmth and heat of social battle are in progress . We had great hopes that they would one day show what they were worth , However, God has taken them from our midst . They were chiefs over their
Mr. Chairman , hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , during the recess this Assembly lost two of its members , viz . Chief Ndlelalula Mrazuli and Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara, both of the Dalindyebo region . It is with regret that I now express the sympathy of both sides of the Assembly.
tribes and our sympathies go to those tribes and to the families of the deceased . We cannot say anything regarding their political views . We only express our sympathies because no matter what their views were , we still feel we have lost. We on our side
7.
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS.
had great love for these men and to their families we would say : Keep faith . I second the motion that letters of sympathy be sent from this House to the families of the deceased.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the Report of the Controller and Auditor General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkei Government, and on the Accounts of the inferior bodies of the Transkei Administration for the financial year 1965/1966 . In terms of Rule 147 (b) it stands referred to the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts .
DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am afraid I will have to introduce an unpleasant and jarring note to this motion of condolences , especially in respect of the late Dr. H. F. Verwoerd. As a profound Christian I have no objection to Dr. Verwoerd as a human being.
Mr. Chairman, I lay upon THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman ……….
the table :-
(1) Estimates of Expenditure to be deffered from the Transkei Revenue Fund during the year ending 31st March , 1968 ; and
Excuse me , hon . THE CHAIRMAN : member, are you moving an amendment or what?
(2) Estimates of Revenue to be received during the year ending 31st March , 1968 .
DR. BALA: It is unopposed. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL FIRST READING.
THE CHAIRMAN : Well , are you moving an amendment?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman , I move that the Transkei Appropriation Bill , 1967 , be now read a first time .
DR. BALA: No.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : you opposing it?
Are MINISTER
THE second .
OF
EDUCATION :
I
DR. BALA: I am only opposing in so far as..... Agreed to . THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid you cannot do that. Does the House agree?
The Bill was read a first time .
THE CHAIRMAN : se cond reading?
Agreed to. The members rose and stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Dr. H.F. Verwoerd, and to Chief .N. Mrazuli and Chief N. Mtirara.
What
date
for the
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The second reading of this Bill will take place on Monday, 24th day of April , 1967 , or so soon thereafter.
NOTICES OF MOTION. ANNOUNCEMENTS.
18. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I just want to announce that the motion of no confidence moved by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition will only take three days and no more .
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish a mental hospital in the Transkei " .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I have not at any time heard of a situation where the Prime Minister or the Chief Minister has announced to a Legislative Assembly how long a matter of which the Legislative Assembly is seized will take.
Miss 19. move :-
(a) determining the old age pensions applicable to Transkei citizens on the old age basis and not on the means test ; (b) re-instating
pensions
to
those
recipients from whom such benefits have been withdrawn" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We will move that the debate be closed . We have the stick on the Government side . (Interjections )
Order ,
Lillian Twetwa gave notice to
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:-
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member, I have usually given an opportunity to speakers on both sides of the House . If the speakers have finished saying what they want to say , then I close the debate . I cannot say at this stage whether it will last one, two or three days .
THE CHAIRMAN : shall go on to Item 5.
Mr. R. Msengana gave notice to move: -
20. Miss move:-
Lillian Twetwa
gave notice to
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisa-
please . We
8.
clerks , rentals should be determined at a rate per cent on the income of the clerk lower than at present;
bility of exonerating all those who pay ' As you earn Tax' from paying ' Additional General Tax' " . 21. Miss move :-
(ii) that the rented dwelling houses should be situated within the boundaries of the municipal or village management board areas" .
Lillian Twetwa gave notice to
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of raising the wages of labourers connected with the Departments of Roads and Works and Agriculture and Forestry to the minimum of R20 per month" .
22.
29.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending to the Republican Government full military training for Africans" .
Mr. S.M. Sinaba gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant the Transkei full independence on the 5th May, 1967; alternately , the Republican Government should be requested to give a date on which it is prepared to grant such independence " . 23.
30.
31.
Mr. S.M. Sinaba gave notice to move : -
32.
G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to assign a portion of the Mjanyana Leper Institution common age for the grazing of cattle belonging to the African citizens" . Mr.
33.
to move : -
Mr. 0.0 . Mpondo gave notice to move: -
Mr. 0.0 . Mpondo gave notice to move: -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of increasing financial assistance to the Transkeian in agricultural shows the central re-establishing and districts show in Umtata with a view to improving the quality of stock and agricultural produce in the Transkei " .
G.G. Kutu gave notice to move: -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of paying stipends to all sub-headmen in the Transkei " . 28.
gave notice
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government with a view to establishing a mortuary in Butterworth to cater for the Non-European section of the people in view of the hardships suffered by Africans in that area and the surrounding districts" .
bility of requesting the Republican Government to open more channels for training Bantu Traffic Officers ."
27.
Diko
(b) There shall also be a House of Review of which chiefs will be members ex officio".
Mr. Z. Chemane gave notice to move: -
Mr.
C.
Legislative shall be (a) There Council in the Transkei to be known as the Legislative Assembly which shall consist of one hundred and nine elected members;
Mr. L.T. Mazwi gave notice to move: -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisa-
26 .
Mr.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to amend section 23 of the Transkei Constitution Act (Act No. 48 of 1963) to read as follows : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to see to it that all Transkeian citizens who have been forced to reside in Mdantsane do not forfeit their citizenship rights in the Transkei " . 25.
Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow Transkei an political refugees to return home with impunity" .
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to arrange for radio broadcasts in the Xhosa language to be instituted everywhere in the Republic of South Africa" .
24.
Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :-
34.
Mr. L.T. Mazwi gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of employing
Mr. L.A. Luwaca gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability-
(a) qualified
social
workers ,
and
(b) health educators for each magisterial district in the Transkei " .
(i) that for all Government buildings built for occupation by African
9.
the Government should consider the advisability of discontinuing the practice of prosecuting stock owners for failing to dip their cattle for reasons beyond control " .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 24th April , 1967.
MONDAY, 24TH APRIL, 1967 . The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
41.
Prayers were read .
Mr.
G.G. Kutu gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisa-
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
bility of requesting hotel owners to provide accommodation for Bantu customers in the Transkeian Territories to consume liquor within the premises of the hotel” .
ANNOUNCEMENTS. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members , in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the appropriation contemplated in the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1967.
42.
Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of considering the conditions under which labourers at Lambasi Tea and Coffee Scheme work with a view to raising their wages" .
NOTICES OF MOTION.
43 . 35.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a commission representative of:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing a Constitutional Committee on the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 , to consider during recess, amendments to the Constitution in order to bring it in line inter alia with the party system and full elective representation . The said Committee to be composed of members of Parties represented in the Legislative Assembly" . 36 .
Mr.
H.H.
(a) A cross- section of the citizens of the Transkei ;
(b) Other interested bodies ganised churches:
(i) to conduct an extensive inquiry , by of collecting and collating way evidence, into the vital question of sexual morals and other related matters obtaining amongst the people of the Transkei to the end :
bility of requesting the Republican Government to supply all hospitals in the Transkei with ambulance vans " . Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move:-
conventions , customs , (a) that taboos , deterrents , fines etc. that have a bearing thereon may be brought into line with modern thought and situation ;
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending to the village management boards the election of African town councillors as well as European councillors in zoned towns or villages" .
38. Miss Lillian move :-
(b) that current trends towards moral degeneracy may be more adequately arrested .
Twetwa gave notice to
(ii) that a report Commission consideration the Assembly
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of constructing bridges at Tsitsa River near Shawbury , Gqukunqa River in Qumbu district and at upper Inxu River in Tsolo district" . 39.
Mr.
N.
Jafta
gave
Mr.
upon the findings of the may be submitted for to the 1968 Session of or so soon thereafter" .
44. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase gave notice to move: -
notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government for the payment into the Transkei Revenue Fund from the Consolidated Revenue Fund in terms of paragraph (c) of section 52 ( 1) of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 , of a sum not less than the amount paid by the Transkei citizens and residents in indirect taxation in addition to the present grant" .
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of the Republic of South Africa to instal a sub-post office at Ngangelizwe Municipal Location , Umtata" .
40.
persons ог oras the such
(c) Persons possessing expert opinion who may thus be co-opted ;
Zibi gave notice to move : -
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisa-
37.
Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu gave notice to move : -
Mr. K.M.N. Guzana gave notice to Move: -
G.G. Kutu gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly
10.
the rules of the House be suspended and in view of the fact that this side of the House is anxious to get into the minds of the Opposition , I am sure that my colleagues will agree that this motion be discussed at 2.15 this afternoon . I do not want to try and give an excuse to the Opposition on this motion , although we do not regard them as an official Opposition . (Laughter)
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , may I make the observation that we have not been supplied with the English version of the Prime Minister's speech in opening the Assembly .
THE CHAIRMAN : motion now , please .
I want notices of
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the disgusting and objectionable conduct of a member of this Assembly, Dr. H.P. Bala , by contemptuously remaining seated on Friday , the 21st instant, when all members of this Assembly stood up on your authority , Mr. Chairman, after an unopposed motion of tribute and condolence in the sad demise of
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I take very strong exception to the observation that this motion is brought in here to test the feelings of the Opposition . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not at all . We shall test you by postponing it. MR . GUZANA: The record of this Assembly shows that this motion of condolence was supported by the Leader of the Opposition and that the whole House except one member stood to pay tribute to the late Dr. Verwoerd and the two deceased members of this House . To suggest that this motion is being brought in to test opinion of the members of the Opposition of this House defeats the object of the motion to censure an individual member.
the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa, Dr. H. F. Verwoerd , and also of two other members of this House , the hon. chiefs , accepted by this Assembly, I move :"(a) That this Assembly censures Dr. H.P. Bala for contempt ; (b) that this Assembly suspends him from the Assembly and the precincts of this Assembly for a period of ten days ; and
THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
We
are not
testing you by this motion. We are testing you by postponing it till 2.15.
(c) that he forfeits his salary and any allowances payable to him for that period by reason of his being a member of this Assembly ."
THE CHAIRMAN : I am of opinion that the House agrees that this matter be brought forward at 2.15 p.m. Does the House agree ?
Mr. Chairman, I also move : -
Agreed to. "That the rules of this House be suspended so that this motion be discussed before the motion of no confidence ."
NO CONFIDENCE.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon members , I move: -
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second the motion .
"That this House has no confidence in the Government."
THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?
In moving this motion it is most unfortunate that an observation from the hon . the Chief Minister has cast a feeling of suspicion and a feeling of resentment into the atmosphere of this House, and to suggest that our sincere expressions of sympathy are suspect is to undermine a man's integrity altogether.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , on a matter of such gravity I think it is proper for the Government to take the Opposition into its confidence before it is brought before this House . It is a matter affecting the rights of an hon. member of this House and , whilst not going into the merits and demerits of this motion , I do feel it should not be hustled through without giving members of this House an opportunity to think into it . I would therefore move an amendment to the effect that the motion be discussed after the tea interval this afternoon . I do feel that members will
THE CHIEF MINISTER : from your party .
Dismiss him
MR . GUZANA: Things like that are not said even if they are felt. This is a privilege extended to the Leader of the Opposition to chastise the Government on its maladministration , and the first observation under this Motion is that the Cabinet has never at any time since this session began been in this House in its full membership. One would have thought that the hon . the Chief Minister would have made an announcement explaining the absence of the hon. the Minister of the Interior in order to counteract a feeling that the hon . the Minister of the Interior has played truant. We hope at a later stage this announcement will be made . I want to begin with the Department of
not bring an objective mind to bear upon this motion when taken by surprise and that, whilst every member is very concerned about the dignity of this House , emotionalism may confuse the issue . I move that amendment, Sir . MR . T.H. BUBU: I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in view of the amendment which has just been moved to my motion requesting that
11.
Education and to ask the Government for an explanation of the re- shuffle of the Ministers between the Department of Education and the Department of Justice . We on this side of the House feel that the erstwhile Minister of Education had the profession training to hold that portfolio and that his transfer to the Department of Justice is really to mock him as he has no qualifications that would justify his appointment in that portfolio.
tunity to go round to the polling stations which were established at those primary schools . We found young children of 8 , 9 and 10 years of age crowded into a hut · about 82 of them in one hut . (Inaudible I interjection) You should have listened said the polling stations gave us an opportunity to see conditions . I never said they came on polling day . Anyway , I excuse you from the remark . Senile decay is something nobody can stop . These pupils were in Sub-standards A and B, Standard 1 and 2, all in one hut . The position was such that the teacher had to keep most of the pupils out of this hut whilst he taught one class . So crowded was this hut that there was not room to put any furniture on which the children could sit. Some classrooms had mud floors . They were uneven and pitted. You found you had a small hole in the wall by way of ventilation. Some classrooms were standing akimbo , on the point of falling over; the inside and outside of their walls were a disgrace to hygiene and cleanliness ; the thatched roofs were leaking; there were no sanitary arrangements ; and I want to know what the Department of Education is doing about these matters .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has . MR. GUZANA: Or is it because at the last session of this Assembly he received such a drubbing that he feared to come before this House as Minister of Education again? The significant factor is that in this exchange of portfolios his previous dicta and directives have been countermanded and one gets the impression that the Government was censuring its own Minister in his administration . Now we are landed in the Department of Education with a man who is carrying a science degree and a legal qualification and very little professional qualifications , and yet this is a very important department as it prepares our pupils for a developing country . It is the basis of all civilization and any economic development of the African will only be gauged by the extent to which the Department of Education provides for their educational qualifications to fit into an economic
THE MINISTER OF Where was this school? '
AGRICULTURE:
MR. GUZANA : It is not one school. This is the general state of affairs in most of the primary schools of the Transkei , and it is a disgrace to a people who are moving forward that their children should be subject to such conditions when they seek to be educated .
society. Because the Opposition regards this Department as a very important one we would like to see more money spent under this head than in any other department. We would like to see one third of the budget going to the Department of Education , one third to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry, and the other departments could be content with the other third . But we feel that the Department of Education is not doing its work properly, nor is it aware of its responsibilities . In a world where the inventor is constantly putting new inventions before us ; in a world where new discoveries are being made day by day , it is obvious that these inventions and discoveries will outpace the classroom textbook and therefore we need some dynamic power in the Department of Education.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Perhaps those are night schools . There are no such day schools .
MR. GUZANA: I am not surprised that the hon . the Minister of Agriculture should shake his head and deny the existence of of such schools . I am not surprised because in his Department he has to deal with moles and moles have no eyes to see with. (Laughted During the past bye- election the Government and its supporters were crying out, saying the Government is going to build schools .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am glad you appreciate that.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : So it is .
MR. GUZANA: They said that levies would be abandoned because the Government is going to bear the full expenditure in putting up these schools . A circular from the Department of Education indicates that the Department is only prepared to subsidise the building of schools in secondary schools up to the amount of R1,200 per class-room.
MR. GUZANA: We want a department that is open to influence from educational experts from outside the Transkei . We seek a department that will make it possible for educational experts and teachers to come to the Transkei and into the classroom . You are conscious of the fact that there is a great thirst for learning amongst the African people and it would be a sad state of affairs if the African would die because the Department of Education is unable to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In schools. You are talking nonsense .
quench this thirst. I want to point out some failures which we think are inexcusable in the Department of Education . There is a big cry for accommodation in the
primary
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : R1,350. You don't use your spectacles . MR. GUZANA: I accept the correction of R1,350 . But is that grant sufficient to put up a classroom? My own personal experience is that to put up a bedroom 12ft.
schools and I speak particularly to the conditions that exist in primary schools . The last bye-election gave some of us an oppor-
12.
on education and the South African economy , and I am referring the Department to this report because I would like it to have an idea of the qualifications a teacher should have. Here are the qualification (I concede that this is an ideal but I set it for the
by 12 ft. will cost you today R1,200 . The more correct statement should have been that the Government is going to subsidise the building of schools , rather than that it is going to build schools . This is indicative of the irresponsible nature of the Government which seeks to capitalize on an exaggeration in order to win voters . In primary schools , if I am correct, the Government is going to subsidise them at the rate of R500 per classroom . OF MINISTER THE You are wrong - it is R1,350.
Department of Education to attain) : Every primary school teacher should have completed Std. 10 and possess a professional qualification based on three years ' further study . Every secondary school teacher should possess a University degree and qualification . teaching professional a Every secondary school teacher should at least have two University courses to his credit in every subject which he teaches in Std. 7 and 8, and three University courses in every subject which he teaches in Std. 9 and 10. Those are the ideal qualifications and I put them to the hon . the Minister of Education for implementation and for an attempt on his part to get the teachers to those qualifications .
EDUCATION :
MR. GUZANA: If the figures given out by the hon . the Minister of Education are correct, the amount is still inadequate ...... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You will have to tax the people .
MR. GUZANA : ....and the people still have to tax themselves in order to have these classrooms built, and yet education is a State responsibility . OF MINISTER THE Have you been to Sithebe?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Stop practising and go back to the classroom to teach . GUZANA: I would gladly go back MR. to the classroom if you will pay me adequately , but you are very niggardly with the purse - that is the trouble . I can very well understand the difficult position in which the Department is at present because the teachers are already in the classroom and they are inadequately qualified , and I have noted with pleasure the fact that there is an extra course introduced at Shawbury for the training of teachers , but my feeling is that the Department of Education is not going all out to remedy this fault. I would like the teachers during vacation to be brought to a refresher course .
EDUCATION :
MR . GUZANA : I have been . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How did the poeple have to pay? (Interjections) Have you been to Butterworth ? MR. GUZANA: The whole population of the Transkei is not concentrated at Sithebe . One school is standing half constructed down at Tombo.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Who constructed it?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is done.
MR. GUZANA: You do not know that. That is the kind of Minister we have who is responsible for the construction of
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon . member, but according to the rules of the House a speaker is only allowed 30 minutes .
schools . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It was constructed by your brother.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that Rule 30 be suspended in order to give an opportunity to the hon. the Leader of the unofficial Opposition to go on with his speech in the debate of no confidence.
MR. GUZANA : I have known it to happen that when the shoe pinches the man who is wearing it squeals (Laughter) and this restlessness on the part of the Minister of Education is an indication of the failure which has characterised his programme for the building of schools . I am also concerned by the type of teacher we have in the classroom . The Department is satisfied with inadequately qualified teachers ....
THE MINISTER OF second, Mr. Chairman .
EDUCATION :
I
Agreed to . MR. GUZANA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Now I am being referred to vacation courses at Cicira School and I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the teachers who are there now. They tell me that they are being taught Afrikaans by Africans ; that the English-Afrikaans dictionary has to be used in the classroom as there are tussles over the meaning of Afrikaans
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How do you come to that conclusion , that the Department is satisfied? MR. GUZANA: ....and is making very little effort to improve both the academic and professional qualifications of the teacher in the classrooms . What one would like to hear from the Department of Education is what its standard is of an adequately qualified teacher . I want to refer him to the 1961 Education Panel's second report
words ; that the position has developed to a tussle between the one who professes to know Afrikaans and the one who is being taught Afrikaans , SO that the vacation
13.
is actually not benefiting the course teacher. And in this connection I want to observe that languages should be taught by people who speak the language as their mother tongue .
if they are going to inspect work in primary schools . They must have taught in secondary schools if they are going to inspect work in secondary schools , otherwise they look ridiculous before the teachers and the pupils when they seek to examine primary school work of which they have no knowledge . My own view and the view of this side of the House is that these promotions under the Department of Educa-
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Can't you teach English? MR. GUZANA: In reply to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry , I am an exception (Laughter) and when I taught English at St. John's College (Junior Certificate) one of my students obtained an A. My point is that the vacation course should be an intensive and a beneficial one to the teacher and they must be under strict discipline whilst they are at a vacation course. I have known it happen that at meetings called by the Minister of Education of teachers in a district , half of them are asleep during the meeting .
tion are becoming political plums . One beneficiary of these political plums in an interview with a paper said: "In fairness to the members of the Opposition I must say they are all happy about my promotion " , giving his appointment political undertones , and that had he not been a supporter of the T.N.I.P. he would still be at the bottom of the ladder. And speaking of this particular case , one wonders whether the employees of the Goverment have a right to publicize their appointments through the newspapers . Is it not the Department or the Secretary of the Department who can Unmake these appointments official ? fortunately this announcement involved
(Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Tell the truth . MR . GUZANA: And I have walked through them of a morning and have been intoxicated on getting to the other side . (Laughter) I do ask the hon . the Minister of Education to pay attention to these matters , and that his field staff must make it his duty to let the teacher know that he is holding a responsible job and must do it properly . I would like to see the Department of Education giving monetary incentive to teachers to attend educational courses . I would like the Department of Education to encourage the teachers to go back to school
other people who were not present when the statement to the Press was made and at the present moment this political beneficiary is still teaching as a principal whilst it is suggested in the paper that he has been appointed as a circuit inspector from the 1st April, 1967 . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Never mind so much what the papers say. MR. GUZANA: This statement said the appointment was definite but not official. There is some leakage somewhere in this Department. This Government does not keep information to itself. If anybody is advanced they want to make political capital out of it and this is the sort of thing that happens , and we are bound to come to the conclusion that these appointments
and to give them an allowance whilst they are at school to improve their professional and academic qualifications . I would like to see the Department giving an increment to a teacher who has improved his qualifications . I would like to see the Department set up a workshop where it prepares aparatus and teaching aids for teachers , and the teachers could be brought to this workshop to see how apparatus is made from simple material so that they can go back to make and prepare apparatus for their lessons . Without undermining the integrity and ability of the teachers , I would like to see the Department work out a detailed scheme of work for each subject day by day for each teacher in the classroom . Now, the important thing is not to have circuit inspectors , inspectors and supervisors strutting about and showing off their power and imposing on the teacher. We would like to see the supervisor as an itinerant teacher to give specimen lessons to the pupils to enable the teacher to learn something from the supervisor . I am reminded of the occasion where a circuit inspector asked two supervisors to address a group of teachers and at the end of their talk he stood up to say: I hope the teachers have benefited from this lecture . The teachers said: No, not at all , we have wasted our time. And this is a pointer to the appointment of supervisors and circuit inspectors and inspectors of schools - they must be people who have taught in primary schools
are political appointments in the Department of Education. In the service of the people, in the classroom , in inspecting children , they have to be rewarded for their political allegiance . I think this whole incident requires a statement from the Government. Yes , some members of the Cabinet will shake their heads and say: We have nothing to do with that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We are not responsible for the statements ..
MR. GUZANA: All right, if you have nothing to do with them have you instituted an inquiry into this matter? Have you found out where the leakage is? Or is the Government leaking so much of its secrets that it has nothing to inquire into ? I believe these things should not happen in a stable and sound Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You want to be the Prime Minister. MR. GUZANA : A responsible Govemment will hold its tongue collectively and 14.
individually,
even if an announcement is
people's affairs , there is too strong a smell round where they are standing, and we feel that the Sons of the Transkei are creating a suffocating smell around the TNIP.
going to redound to the political credit of the Government; and on this announcement one wants to ask the question : Is this Government beholden to this man? Is this Government under the thumb of this man? Is this man dictating to the Government what has to be done? Why should these things happen?
THE insult.
CHIEF MINISTER :
That is an
MR. GUZANA: They have continued to villify persons and bodies . Their leaflets are similar to those distributed by the TNIP. There is a similarity of the roneo-ed
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Who is this man?
sheets of paper and their criticism of the Opposition is no different to that of the TNIP. Their language is equally boorish and we feel this Government cannot just
MR. GUZANA : If you want to remain in the forest, do so; if you want to retain your ignorance , do so ; if you want to pretend that you do not know what is happening in the Government pretend that but this will not stop us from speaking about these irregularities which are characterizing the administration . May I move on to the next point. I see the hon . the Minister of Education heaving a big sigh. We shall have more to say when his Vote comes before us . I want to refer to a body of persons known as the " Sons of the Transkei " , who have turned out to be the curse of political development in the Transkei , who are given to sordid abuse and downright scandal ....
wag its tail and look pleased about the present situation . All secret organisations are vile organisations , and they become secret because they cannot bear the light of examination . (Interjections) They are too cowardly to be identified . I know during the last bye -elections visits were made by hon. Ministers under the darkness to various locations , canvassing from house to house, hut to hut, and holding meetings during the night. (Laughter) GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Nonsense !
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Do you blame the Government for that?
MR. GUZANA: Is the needle going in? You have been doing that - working under cover of darkness · as the Sons of the
MR. GUZANA: ...who have become impertinent semi -intellectuals baying at the Opposition and also baying at respectable persons in the Transkei behind
Transkei operate under cover of darkness . (Interjections) OPPOSITION
the cloak of anonymity. They distribute their vile literature in the dark. Their political thinking is similar to that of the
What
Shame!
MR. GUZANA: This is no small matter
TNIP and they are bringing shame upon every right-thinking person in the Transkei who feels that the people should be given a chance to develop politically. THE CHIEF MINISTER : that to do with the Government?
MEMBERS:
and I think if we have a responsible Government it should get about solving the identity of these Sons of the Transkei . The danger is that if there is no identity between the: TNIP and the Sons of the Transkei , the public may see them to be identified with TNIP.....
has
MR . GUZANA: And this Government is unable to say anything about this . This
Do you represent the public?
matter has been raised in previous sessions of the Assembly, but we are not getting a statement from the Government as to the identity of these people. (Interjections) If the Government is not associated with
MR. GUZANA: .... and incidents may occur as a result of the villification of the Sons of the Transkei . I call upon this Government to turn its back to its failures
THE MINISTER OF
the Sons of the Transkei , why has it not investigated their identity?
AGRICULTURE :
in the past and do something about this matter, otherwise it must accept the accusation that the TNIP and the Sons of the Transkei are one and the same body.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not the Police . Don't talk nonsense .
(Interjections) MR. GUZANA: We have a Department of Justice which could make representa-
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
tions for an investigation of these Sons of the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER : busy investigating you.
They
MR. GUZANA : I want to pass on . If you are not murderers who have killed the
are
body, you are worse murderers because you kill the minds and souls of people. (Laughter) What matters the flesh if the soul is saved? I think the worst one is one who
MR. GUZANA: Yes , the trouble is that when people start investigating other
brings hurt to the mind rather than to the body.
people and poking their noses into other
15.
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : What have they done to you in the elections?
MR. GUZANA: MR. GUZANA: They have done nothing to me, because their words are meaningless - they fall away like water from a duck's tail. THE MINISTER OF (Inaudible interjection)
AGRICULTURE :
MR. GUZANA: You invite criticism of your Department. Before the end of the day
begins with a minimum of 50 cents a day. I am speaking of the man who is handling a pick and shovel .
you will be rehabilitated. (Laughter) I want to speak on the matter of jobs and wages and salaries paid to people employed by the Government. This is a matter that affects the man in the rural location , into the Republic . minds correctly I
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What was he getting before we took over?
the street, the man in the man who goes out If I can interpret your think you were very
MR. GUZANA: It is not what he was getting before you took over, but the criterion is · is he being paid adequately? Because where you get one grain of sugar and I now give you two grains it is still inadequate to sweeten you cup of tea. This means that the labourer is earning ten cents per day • of a five -day week and if he has five children to feed he is earning two cents per child per day - that is, counting the five working days and hoping that they do not hunger on Saturday and Sunday . A watchman is paid in the Transkei R6 per week, working out at 86 cents per day , and if he has five children 13 cents per child per day. I think this Government should be ashamed of such a situation . I want to read to this House some of the salary scales which are implemented in areas where Bantu authorities are in control under the . Department of Bantu Administration and Development . I am going to speak of the man who wields the pick and shovel . This information is authenticated because it has been obtained from the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner in Natal . The pick and shovel worker eams in Nkandla R16 2
pleased to hear in the speech from the throne that during 1966 over 160,000 workers from the Transkei went into the Republic and were responsible for an inflow into the Transkei of about R9 million. Now when we speak in big figures we seem to think that the effect is big. Allow me to reduce this picture to size . If 16 0,000 men have brought into the Transkei R9 million in 1966 , it means that each man brought into the Transkei last year R56 ; and he has brought in R4.70 per month, R1.15 per week and , for a five -day week, he has brought 25 cents per day. If he has five children and excludes himself and his wife from this income , he has eamed 5 cents per child per day. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you criticizing the Republic of South Africa or the Transkei? MR . GUZANA: I am talking about the labourer who goes out of the Transkei - the Transkei citizen and what he is eaming. That 5 cents per child in a family of five children per day is the money that he brings back to the Transkei , or the money he brought back to the Transkei in 1966 . THE
CHAIRMAN :
Excuse
me,
I am sufficiently res-
ponsible not to behave irresponsibly . Now, this is what happens to the people who go out into the Republic . They earn so little and bring so little back to the Transkei , but what is the Government of the Transkei doing in this regard? I want to quote example of salaries and wages paid by the Transkei Government . The labourer
per annum ; at Empangeni he gets R180 ; at Bergville he gets R198 and in Pietermaritzburg R300 . This is the pick and shovel worker, and these wages are related to wages paid by private enterprise and private individuals and they vary according to the cost of living relating to each particular district , so that a pick and shovel worker in Pietermaritzburg is eaming
hon .
member , you have now spoken for more than an hour and I do not know how long you can go on .
R1.15 per day whilst a similar labour in the Transkei gets ten cents a day. I am speaking of minimum wages . I can also give examples of scales applicable to semi-skilled and unskilled labourers . Under the semi- skilled labourers' labourers ' category a learner driver /operator earns R36 6 per annum and Class 1 Advanced Artisans and senior Bantu foremen get R576 per annum . I could go on quoting these figures to show how inadequate is the scale of pay for employees in the Transkei and employee of the Government , particularly in the Department of Roads and Works , and that the Government must uplift the people economically by giving them better wages than are at present made available to the workers; that with a satisfied working
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We will guillotine his speech . THE CHAIRMAN : I do not know whether you can go on after lunch . You must summarize your speech. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , if the rules have been waived , I have to speak to a finish . THE CHAIRMAN : I think, hon . member , you are supposed to state how many days your speech will last. MR. GUZANA: I wish the Chairman would have faith in me .
community you have greater output and that
16.
for control and administration of the Department of the Interior to the hon . the Minister of Justice , Mr. B.B. Mdledle , until further notice.
in jacking up wages you indirectly improve the health of the people in that they are better able to afford body - building foods than is the case otherwise . In this motion we would like the Government to make more jobs available to the labourer than is the case at present . I am worried over the fact
Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the Assembly , I am sure that every body in this house had , on Friday , 21st day of April , 1967 , the unprecedented experience of the most disgraceful and dishonourable conduct of a member of any Parliament. I repeat that it was conduct which has never been experienced by any Parliament in the whole world. Dr. Bala is one of the most educationally qualified Africans , if not people , in the whole Republic. The conduct he displayed does not become a person of his
that the various departments , and particularly the Department of Roads and Works and the Department of Agriculture and Forestry , have a tendency towards mechanisation . There is every justification for having machines to do the work where the people are skilled or semi - skilled , for when you displace them from their unskilled labour they are able to take up jobs requiring skill , but if you bring in a grader to work on the road you displace from work about fifty men . These fifty men do not have any skills , they cannot do any other job than use the pick-axe and use the shovel , So that mechanisation tends to cause unemployment where the population is not trained in skills . We want this Government to dispossess itself of this mania for tractors and graders when it means that men and women will go without work. I pass on to the next point. During the session of the TNIP congress last week some startling statements were made relating to influx control . It is reported that the hon. the Chief Minister said that the Republican Government is wielding a " kierie " and is chasing away the Transkei people from urban areas . He went on to say we cannot allow that to go on unchecked .
educational qualifications . I submit that even a red-blanketed person could not behave in the manner in which this hon . doctor behaved, but a red-blanketed person could, if he behaved in such a manner, be pardoned because of the presumption that his ignorance does not permit him to differentiate between honourable and dishonourable conduct . The conduct displayed by this hon. member was typical of what I may describe in the mildest terms as an
atheist. Atheists are people who have no sympathetic feeling towards those who have been bereaved , but conduct of this nature is typical of communists , people who always cherish the death of others by forceful means . It has given the presumption that Dr. Bala was highly pleased when the news of the assassination of the late Honourable Prime Minister reached his knowledge . It is only pleasing that he is an exceptional figure in the whole of the Republic of South Africa. This hon . doctor was elected by the people of Fingoland on the understanding that he would being honour to his constituency . I wonder what the attitude of the people of Fingoland is after reading the news of this hon . member's crude behaviour . I presume his conduct will be an indictment that will be considered for judgment at the polls in 1968 , if he should stand for election , which I doubt. Sir, this motion serves to give a warning to members of this House that the Transkeian citizens , with the exception of the hon. member for Fingoland I have referred to , constitute a highly civilized community · a community that will not condone disgraceful and dishonourable conduct of the nature I have already described . Dr. Bala is a graduate of one of the highest universities of our land the University of South Africa - in addition to his professional qualifications as a medical practitioner. One would expect him to set an example to all those who did not have the fortune which the Almighty God bestowed on him. People with the minimum educational qualifications will no doubt deplore his conduct . The whole country , Black and White , have been exasperated when reading the report relating to the conduct of this hon . member. This House should be united in deploring the actions of Dr. Bala and I have no doubt that as we moved the unopposed motion unanimously ,
The debate was adjourned .
AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15
p.m.
SUSPENSION OF MEMBER.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , I will call upon the hon . the Chief Minister to speak to his motion and I will allow only one member on the Government and one on the Opposition side to speak and thereafter we shall take a vote . THE CHIEF MINISTER: And also one from the Freedom Party . THE CHAIRMAN : Yes , also the Freedom Party. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , before I go on with my motion I wish to announce that the hon . the Minister of the Interior, Chief J.D. Moshesh, was admitted to hospital some time before the beginning of this session of the Legislative Assembly . I have before me a doctor's certificate which I have just obtained from the Department of the Interior to the effect that he had a bad influenza with suspected pneumonia . It was published in Friday's Government Gazette that the Chief Minister had assigned and allocated the responsibility 17.
with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition seconding the Chief Minister, the party opposite the Government party will support the censuring of this member. Mr. Chairman , section 49 of the rules of this House
ings of other members of this Assembly. More often than not in a matter of this nature affecting conduct it is always enough to express regret and condemnation of an act without being vindictive over it. We do not seek that this matter should become the subject of a division , but we do feel that other members of the House will be inclined to the view that, having expressed our displeasure and having indicated by some form of punishment our condemnation , we should not be open to an accusation that we became vindictive on this matter. It
provide that a member who disregards the authority of the Chair shall forthwith be censured by the Assembly, and it is provided under section 162 that any member or person guilty of contempt shall be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-atArms by order of the Chairman and dealt with as the Assembly may direct. Mr. Chairman , my motion is clear and unambiguous , that this Assembly censures Dr. H.P. Bala for contempt; that this Assembly suspends him from the Assembly and the precincts of the Assembly for a period of ten days ; and that he forfeits his salary and any allowances payable to him for that period by reason of his being a member of this Assembly . I move accordingly , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF second, Mr. Chairman.
EDUCATION:
is to be regretted that into this motion has been infused certain presumptions as to Dr. Bala's leanings towards Communism because we feel that a motion of tribute and a motion of condolence rises above our human idiosyncracies , and is an expression of the feelings of the heart. We regret very much that such a statement has been made by the hon. the Chief Minister. We can indulge our feelings by expressing regret over the incident; we can satisfy our sense of justice by making out a form of punishment , but we should not allow vindictiveness to aggravate the punishment that we mete out. If anything, those who have felt the loss of Dr. Ver-
I
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to say from the very onset that it is regretted that an incident of this nature was associated with an expression of condolence to those who were bereaved , and we stand by our tribute shown by this House when it stood up when the unopposed motion was before the House. We feel that the subject of the present moment should not in any way vitiate the tribute that was paid to the late Dr. Verwoerd and the late two chiefs . We feel that the conduct of the hon. member gave cause for a great deal of concern , but I would refrain from passing judgment on his actions as we do not know what the motives were behind that action . It is
woerd will , in their own reaction , indicate to the hon . member what their comment is on his actions . These are my comments on this matter, Sir. MR. S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this motion raised by the hon. the Chief Minister I have been very sad at the action of one of the members . What happened on Friday was rather too bad. It shocked us greatly but we have this question to ask: What caused this action? After the motion Dr. Bala raised his hand to say something , but he was not allowed to speak. It is difficult to say whether he was not allowed because he wanted to argue something that was said , or something else specific . We did not know then whether the members were not
because we , as members of the Legislative Assembly, seek to maintain the dignity of the House that we record our condemnation of his act, and we cannot speak for him - we cannot justify, we cannot do any-
supposed to say anything in this regard. We were eager to know what Dr. Bala had to say , but the Chairman would not allow him to speak. It is difficult to say whether Dr. Bala also wanted to express condolences .
thing on this issue because he is the only person to speak about it. The motion before the House seeks to censure Dr. Bala for contempt. I think our rules , as referred to by the hon. the Chief Minister, direct that such a member shall be censured forthwith
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . member, look at rule 49 of the Rules of this House . Any member who disregards the authority of the Chair shall be censured by the Assembly . That is the charge .
by the Assembly and I seek that he be censured not censured for contempt, but to be censured in terms of the rules . This -
regulation also provides that a member shall , in addition to any other penalty imposed upon him by the Chairman or the Assembly, forfeit that day any allowances payable to him. My submission is that wẹ are to regard this matter as an unfortunate incident and that our feelings should not make us react in a vindictive manner. I do feel that if this House has censured the hon . member and has also made him forfeit
MR. SINABA: I understand the charge but lead us not into temptation . Had Dr. Bala been allowed to speak, perhaps this would not have happened. I want to know from the hon. the Chief Minister whether Dr. Bala was not allowed to say something. Although we feel it was bad we are con fused. I have this in mind - that if he had
his allowances for a day it will be quite sufficient to meet the situation . The danger in vindictive over this issue is that we being may be" Q regarded as having taken this tribute as a depth charge to test the feel-
been allowed to speak he would not have remained seated. I cannot say what his reason was in not standing - whether it was to show disapproval of the condolences 18.
can raise its voice and condemn influx be acting because control if they consistently willregulations withdo they o so their policy. The governing party cannot be heard to cry aloud when the consequences of "apartheid" become felt by the people of the Transkei . bede
or what . I feel the punishment is rather hard on Dr. Bala because we do not know exactly the reason which made him remain seated .
paramount Hon . CHAIRMAN : THE chiefs and hon . members , this was an unopposed motion and according to the Constitution and Rules , we ought to have allowed only two speakers · one on each
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? That is not the consequence of "apartheid". The employment of the people has nothing to do with " apartheid " .
side of the House . However, I have allowed the hon . Mr. Sinaba also to say a word . I will now put the question.
MR. GUZANA: Those who speak for "apartheid " must provide the alternative employment to absorb those who are suffering because the regulations relating to influx control are being tightened by the Republican Government. Workers in urban areas have returned to tell us that they have been told to go back to Matanzima . (Interjections )
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I will crave a special privilege from you , Sir. In my remarks I made a comment on the severity of the punishment as contained in the motion and I indicated that we did not like to have an amendment put in on this motion . We were wondering if this matter of severity could not be the subject of a little discussion. You see , the motion seeks to convict and to sentence at one and the same time . Would it not be better to convict and then later on to sentence?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR . GUZANA: The trouble is that when they get back to the Transkei there is no employment available for them. Do we take this to be a rejection on the part of the Chief Minister of the policy of " apartheid" Is it not playing the game with the Republican Government now? The Opposition has always at all times realised that the African is completely and irrevocably
THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid I shall have to stick to the motion . I shall now put the question . MR. GUZANA: Now, Mr. Chairman , in view of the manner in which you are handling this question many of us will be free not to vote now because the issue is con-
involved in the economic set-up of the Republic of South Africa and we find that, speaking averagely, in the mining industry, roads and electrical engineering , railways and harbours we have a complement of about 50 per cent Africans amongst the employees . If these people are being called back home what are they going to do at home? I think the truth is that the African
fused by joining conviction with the sentence . We are not quarrelling with the motion but with the sentence . If they should abstain let them not be misinterpreted and said to be rejecting the whole motion . (Interjections )
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Those
in favour?
must continue to be in the Republic and that he will continue to be an important pillar in the economic structure of South Africa for many , many decades to come . Any responsible Government should seek to improve their conditions in their economic involvement with the Republic. Strangely enough , whilst the Government professes to be making representations on this point, during those negotiations the hon. the Chief Minister accuses the Republican
The motion was carried by 58 votes to nil, the Opposition abstaining from voting. 1 THE CHAIRMAN : At this point, I name you , Dr. Bala . You will be out of this House for a period of ten days without any pay . Sergeant-at-Arms , take him out.
Dr. Bala left the Chamber,
escorted
by the Sergeant-at-Arms .
Goverment of wielding a " kierie " on this issue . I think one of the greatest faults that we have in this department that plagues this Government is that it lacks tact and
NO- CONFIDENCE . The debate was resumed.
diplomacy . Any matter which is the subject of negotiations between the two Govemments become does not a political
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was still quoting the words of the hon . the Chief Minister when he
"kierie" to be waved in the air to stir up TNIP loyalty, and because there is this lack of tact and diplomacy I commend to the hon . the Ministe of Education that he introduce a subject of " tact and diplomacy" at the School for Chiefs in the Transkei and send the hon . the Chief Minister there for a lesson. (Laughter)
addressed his party congress last week and I finished off with the words " We have with the representations several had Bantu Administration and of Minister Development on this matter. Now, influx control is a direct consequence of the policy of " apartheid" and separate development and any apostle of " apartheid" should not be heard to squirm and scream when there is a tightening of influx control regulations . It is only the Opposition which
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Would you give up your present job and become
19 .
a teacher then?
hibited in the compiling of voters ' lists the people are not being encouraged in exercising their right to vote and exercising it effectively . We hope this does not happen again and that great care will be exercised . We would suggest that the voters ' lists be compiled and closed by a certain date ; that the people should be advised that for a period of three weeks thereafter they will be given the opportunity to examine the voters' lists and if their names do not
MR. GUZANA: I am glad you ask that because I could give him a few lessons in that respect. (Laughter) Now I want to speak on the bye-elections. The governing party is happy to have taken a seat in the Qaukeni electoral division, but we are happier because we have been able to demonstrate our strength in retaining two out of the three seats in the bye-elections that were held on the 12th April . We are also happy to say quite unequivocally that the Opposition represents the wishes of
appear in the voters ' lists a supplementary roll is drawn up; and this should all happen a considerable time before nomination day. The members of this side of the House
the people and that in adding up these totals we find that the TNIP polled in all 63,773 votes whilst the Democratic Party votes . Even though the polled 81,267
know what happened in Gcalekaland when almost overnight we had to find a candidate because an originally nominated candidate did not appear in the voters ' list, although his reference book bore a registration mark . that Now I want to make this observation if the elections in the Transkei are going to continue to be run and to be influenced in the manner in which they have been influenced up to now, then the vote is very much of a farce in the Transkei . Let me, by way of a remark, say how much we commend
electorate did not show particular enthusiasm, particularly in the Qaukeni region where you only had a 35 per cent poll , the Opposition has shown in that low percentage poll that it still enjoys the confidence of the electorate. There are certain features about which I want to comment. P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : You will see in 1969. You will be empty there. (Laughter)
the officials who were associated with polling on polling day . We admire them for their determination to get to the polling stations despite inclement weather and difficult
MR. GUZANA: I notice that during the bye-elections there was a considerable
conditions . At no time was it ever reported to us that a presiding officer had tumed back because there was a formidable river in front of him. We admire them for their
number of tendered ballot papers which were used, and these cascaded out of almost every ballot box. (Interjections) The hon. the ex-Minister of Education says these papers were ours . How do you know? I am speaking about the tendered ballot papers . Do you understand now? Now, these papers were issued to people who carried a registration mark on their reference books , but whose names did not appear on the voters ' roll.
dedication and we want to thank them fully for their hard work. What has been happening besides that? There has been intimidation....
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : By you .
MR. GUZANA: ....there have been threats ; there has been coercion ; there have been all sorts of things practised in order to defeat the underlying principle of a franchise that a man expresses his wishes by the vote he casts .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And vice versa . MR. GUZANA: Nobody's name could appear on the voters ' list who did not have a stamp of registration in his reference book. These were issued to the people , they voted on these papers and these are not counted . (Interjections ) papers
THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
What about
Nyanda region ? MR. GUZANA: I have found out that Government members have even been
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are talking nonsense.
willing to crucify rehabilitation for the sake of a few extra votes . (Laughter) In some places they told their meetings : "You will
MR. GUZANA: And this is indeed a
never have any fencing in this area. Į say so." (Interjections)
form of deception practised on the voter who thinks he has voted, when actually he should have been told to go away because his name does not appear on the voters' list.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. GUZANA: In some areas Government members were heard to say: " If you vote for X I shall see to it that rehabilitation is not introduced in this area." There were statements from Government members
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame ! MR. GUZANA: I think this is a reflection on those who were responsible for
to the effect that if anyone voted for Y he would be deported . (Interjections)
compiling the voters' lists for these byeelections and we hope that these pink ballot papers will be reduced almost to nullity in the coming general elections . We feel that by such carelessness as is ex-
region.
GOVERNMENT
MEMBERS:
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . 20 .
Nyanda
MR. GUZANA: Take it easy
we have not accused any particular individual . We have only stated that you Government members have been doing that . These are the things that have surrounded or influenced the candidature of members who
the Interior ; the Department regretted that it could not recommend this licence . One wants to know what is happening. This Government was keen to have the two mile radius withdrawn and it was withdrawn by legislation , and when Africans seek to establish themselves economically this Government will not recommend the issue of licences to those people . Has the Government altered its policy on the granting of trading licences ?
stood for election to this Assembly , but my assessment of the whole situation is that there must be a re-thinking of our attitude towards these elections . (Inaudible interjection) I don't know why the hon . Paramount Chief of Qaukeni is getting restrive about these matters . I was there and you came along and intimidated my meeting.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: It must use its discretion . MR. GUZANA: Has the Government now realised that indeed the two mile radius is to the benefit of the trader and
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : You ran away from me. (Laughter)
not to his disadvantage? I think this Govemment must have some policy of some sort. You cannot coo with the doves and boo with the Communists .
MR. GUZANA: I was at a meeting held by the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni and unfortunately cramped his style completely by my presence there . I do not begrudge anybody canvassing for his party , but I do feel we must not destroy the essence of free expression through the ballot box by intimidating the voters .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is what you are doing . MR. GUZANA: You cannot chase with the hounds and run with the hares all the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I hope Chief D.D.P. Ndamase is listening.
time . The people of the Transkei must know what this Government stands for, and if this Government is going to contradict itself every time it does anything administratively then this Government cannot be said to enjoy the confidence of this House. They cried out for zoning of towns. When it bacame a reality they said: No , it is the Republican Government which has done so . (Laughter) When there were some plums falling from this tree they were the first to collect these plums . And what is the nett result? You are having residential areas where you have Europeans , Coloureds and Africans living together amicably and peacefully .
MR. GUZANA: And this indictment of intimidation is against the Government members . What have we? We have no dead snake to frighten the people with . It is the Government which can tell the people they won't get the old age pension if they vote for the Democratic Party. It is the Govemment which says : We won't give you land if you vote for an Opposition member. It is the Government which says: We won't recognise you as a chief if you don't vote for a TNIP candidate . (Interjections) Whatever temporary advantage we may derive from these questionable tactics , we are not going to get anything in the long run . Our voters will not be trained to exercise the vote as it should be done , (Interjections) and it is the Government that is
THE
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION:
Temporarily.
MR. GUZANA: Many things may be said to be temporary , but I have known permanent temporariness . At a later stage....
responsible for this unpleasant feature which is being infused into politics in the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon . member but I think he has now been speaking for more than two hours and during that time he has said nothing. (Laughter) I move that his speech from the time he started speaking be not more than two and a half hours , Sir. In other words, he is now left with about ten minutes .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is your farewell speech . MR. GUZANA: A farewell speech is made to the person who is leaving. Do you hear the farewell speech addressed to you ? (Laughter) Now I want to speak on a matter which affects a particular individual. An African lady applied for a trading licence in one of the electoral divisions in the Transkei . She applied to have a licence to trade in an area where there was already an African lady trading. Despite the fact that the two mile radius has been abolished , the tribal authority concerned voted against this endeavour to establish a shop in this area. The matter was referred to the regional authority; the regional authority recommended against the granting of this licence . The application came to the Department of
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I have great faith in the Chairman of this House . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I am moving . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, I think the hon . the Chief Minister has put us in a difficulty . The Chief Minister himself said the Leader of the Opposition could speak for three days . Now I cannot stop him, I must let him go on. (Laughter)
21.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I shall stop operating upon him in a few minutes . I can see that the anaesthetic has wom off now and he is feeling the pain . I want to state that I am concerned about the position of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner in the district....
minutes , which is according to the regulations . If the House desires that the time be prolonged I will leave it to them .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have no Commissioners - they are magistrates .
position to take part in this debate and therefore I , as deputy , will expect to be accorded the same privileges which would be accorded to him, and that is to be allowed speak and exhaust myself.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to announce that the hon . the Chief Minister on account of his health will not be in a
MR. GUZANA: Call him magistrate if you like , but his appointment as a Bantu Affairs Commissioner has never been re-
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , that is our wish . We have always done that, but you unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, were interfered with from time to time . In the last three years we have , as you will remember, Sir, waived the rules in so far as the leaders or deputy leaders were concemed. The rest of the members come
voked by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. He is head of the district and all activities of the Government sought to be realised in a district must be known to him. He has the very important duty of maintaining good relations between the races in his district. He has more direct contact with the residents in the district under his jurisdiction than , say, an
down to the usual regular 30 minutes . You may be assured you will not have motions and amendments without reason when the speaker fails to find time to say what he has to say .
official in any one of the departments . He is indeed the conduit pipe to pass on administrative matters to tribal authorities and yet I notice with regret that he is being completely overlooked in certain aspects of administration . I would like to see him come into the picture more and more. I think everything sought to be done . in a district must go through the Bantu Affairs Commissioner.
THE
the Opposition introduced his motion he prefaced it with the following phrase : That the motion of no confidence affords the Opposition an opportunity of chastising the Government. I would like to remind the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that those who chastise others must themselves expect to be chastised . His motion is that of no confidence in the Govemment, thereby suggesting an alternative Government, and naturally if the Government were to be turned out of office then the Opposition would step into the shoes of the present Government. It becomes therefore very essential to search and analyse the type of a party that would form an alternative Government. It is therefore my duty , before replying to the allegations levelled against the Government by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , to analyse the Opposition in order to show this House as well as the Transkei that they would not be a proper Government, or at least a competent Govemment, to run the affairs of the Transkei . I shall straight away indict them with a breach of faith as far as the electorate of the Transkei is concemed. In so doing I shall recall to the memory of some of them the words which were uttered by the hon . member for Qaukeni when he deserted the sinking ship last year or early this year. I refer to the hon . member, Mr. Cromwell Diko . He referred to the Opposition as " a group of unmanageable individuals"
That is the
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I second the motion , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the Assembly, I move a counter-motion or an amendment to delete all the words after the word "House" and to substitute therefor the confidence
in
House
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , you will remember that when the hon . the Leader of
MR. GUZANA: You may have cause to regret if you suddenly pull out the Bantu Affairs Commissioner from your chain of administration. I move that this House has no confidence in the Government.
full
the
Agreed to.
MR. GUZANA: He should not be ignored to the extent that officials or officers employed by the various departments , whilst attached to his station , are not directly responsible to him.
following: - " has Government."
Does
agree?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have no Bantu Affairs Commissioner.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: old policy .
CHAIRMAN :
the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second the amendment. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , I do not wish to place the House in a difficulty again because the other members would also like to be given a long time . If the House agrees on that it will be all right, but I would not like them to exceed thirty
(Laughter) and I think I agree fully with that exposition . I shall first of all start off by chastising the hon . the Leader of the
22.
party as a whole - this group of unmanageable individuals . (Laughter) Last year a
Opposition . You remember when he made a statement to the effect that his party does not believe in the principle of " one man , one vote " . In other words , if the hon. members across the floor were to get into the Government of the Transkei they would start off by disenfranchising a great majority of the citizens of the Transkei . Was that one of the duties allocated to the hon . members across the floor when they were sent to this House by the citizens of the Transkei? Again in 1966 (I am glad because this statement is a joint statement of the ex-Leader of the Opposition and the
conspiracy was made by some of the members across the floor, together with two who are not in this House today . Last year we tried to find out from the hon . members as to whether or not they agreed with the actions of those individuals , and the answer that we got from the members across the floor was that they could not discuss matters which were still sub judice. Judgment was given in the Supreme Court in Grahamstown and the two culprits were convicted. They appealed to the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court. They were again convicted. From then onwards we waited , we searched every paper expecting to find a denunciation of the actions of those gentlemen from either the Leader of the Opposition or some of the members across the floor. No such denunciation was forthcoming up to date . The principle of any party is that of the carriers of responsibility . We therefore charge that the hon. members across the floor either connived at or agreed actively, tacitly or impliedly with the actions of those men . There has been nothing whatsoever to say that either the two convicted members were expelled from that party or subjected to some disciplinary measures . Apart from the two members who were convicted there are four other members who were accomplices and who gave evidence during the trial of those two members . I am going to leave the third hon. member because he has since left that sinking ship and has since sought pastures new.
present Leader of the Opposition which was given to the meeting of the Race Relations in Cape Town ) . The hon . member opposite me, Mr. B.S. Rajuili , anticipates what I am going to quote and says I quoted it last year, and I am quoting it again this year because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has not withdrawn that statement as yet. He said , inter alia: "As we see the future our hope is that since the homelands have come to stay they should be regarded as provinces of the Republic of South Africa and their Goverments should enjoy no more than provincial status ." In other words , if the members across the floor were to one day form the Government of the Transkei they would reduce the status of this very House from being a legislative assembly to that of administering the laws which are made by the Republican Government. The question is : Were the members across the floor given a mandate by the electorate to come and reduce the status of the Transkei Parliament from being a legislative assembly to that of being an ordinary administrative body? Again , on the 28th January this year the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in a statement to the Evening Post warned the White
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : him less sinful?
THE
people of the Republic of South Africa against territorial demands by Matanzima , alleging that in view of the fact that his party is opposed to the Bantu stans or homelands , his party would not support any claim for addition of more land on to the homelands or Bantustans . I am sure it is the general opinion of this in the Transkei need more tions) Can you go to the say to them that you do land?
OPPOSITION never get more .
You
OF
EDUCATION :
I
suppose as a reverend gentleman he must have realised that that, in fact, is a party composed of some members who would be conspirators or fellow-travellers of conspirators . (Interjections ) The hon . member across the floor would like to know what about the tape-recorder. I have the evidence of the tape-recorder here and if you want it I will read it to you. (Interjections ) .
House that we land. (Interjecelectorate and not want more
MEMBER:
MINISTER
Does that make
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now the question is : Would the Transkei be in safe hands if it were handed over to the hands of fellow- travellers of murderers ? We have in the past levelled accusations at some of the members across the floor as
will
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The question of not getting it is beside the issue . Can you go to the electorate and say you do not want more land?
having leanings towards Communism or as being fellow- travellers of Communists , apart from various statements given in various courts of the country in which the Opposition party of the Transkei has been claimed as being of great assistance to the Communists in this Country. If you want
OPPOSITION MEMBER : We want the whole of South Africa. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the pins under the seats are pricking more · that is why they will not keep quiet. I will however leave the hon . the Leader
specific instances as far as that is concemed I shall refer you to the case of the State versus Roley Ahrenstein . But that is not all . In a pamphalet found in possession of Advocate Bram Fisher (the tile of the
of the Opposition and go on to chastise his
23.
pamphlet is "Draft Discussion Document" ) we find this : "A section of the South African Press is Mdoing a magnificent job for Communism ; so are individual Liberals and Progressives ; so are a number of
mere conjecture and this side of the House has no time to worry about persons who are unknown. (Interjections) There is a legally constituted security side of the police to deal with all matters which have or are
student organisations ; so , above all , are members of the Opposition in the Transkei Assembly." (Interjections) What could be more convincing than that, coming from a man who was the avowed leader of the
likely to hamper the peace and tranquillity of the State and we , as a Government, are not prepared to arrogate upon ourselves the duties that have persons upon whom such duties devolve .
Communist Party in this country? A man saying that his party , the Communist Party, has received great assistance from the Opposition Party in the Transkei . Now, the question again is: Were those members across the floor who have leanings towards Communism, or who are fellow-travellers of Communists , sent by their respective electorates to go and assist Communists in this country? Would the Transkei be safe if it were one day to hand over the
MR. RAJUILI : More so when they are valuable allies . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : To come to the allegations with regard to the salaries or wages of labourers in the Republic and those in the Transkei , I wish to state that the hon . the Leader of the Opposition is labouring under a misapprehension of facts . In Natal at Nkundla (this is a yearly amount) labourers receive R16 2 ; Empangeni R180 ; Bergville R19 0 . Our labourers are on a scale of 50 c . x 5c . · 85 c . a day which means that the yearly salary ranges between R130 up to R221 .
government to a party which is composed of ΟΙ fellow-travellers of Communists Communists? These reports have appeared in the papers and they have not been denied or disputed by the members across the floor. There are times when silence means consent, and this is one of those occasions .
The debate was adjourned.
I think I have exposed the salient facts as far as the Opposition is concerned to this House and I leave them to the judgment of the members of this House.
The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 25 th April , 1967 . TUESDAY, 25 TH APRIL , 1967 .
MR. RAJUILI: Would you say the same thing about silence meaning consent in connection with the Government and the Sons of the Transkei?
The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
Prayers were read .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What are we supposed to be consenting to? I shall proceed to deal with some specific matters which were raised by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition . He referred to the re-shuffle of the Cabinet. I think the reasons were sufficiently explained when the reshuffle was made to enable any man who could be regarded as a reasonable man in the street to understand . The second point was that the hon . the Leader of theOpposition said it was the wish of the Opposition that more money be spent on education and he even quoted that it would be happy if about one third of the total expenditure was ear-marked for education . I will refer
ANNOUNCEMENTS.
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Hon.
paramount
chiefs and hon . members , the hon . the Chief Minister wishes the members of the business committee to attend a meeting immediately after the House rises . The salaries section of the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance requests all members to furnish them with their national identity numbers . These are urgently required to eliminate confusion and to make up the pay sheets .
him to the building programme under Roads and Works which is the Department which performs the actual building of the schools , and say that the amount of that vote , added to the amount on education , is R6,030,000. If you compare that with the total amount
QUESTIONS . QUESTION 1 . Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Roads and Works : (a) How many Departmental cars were involved in accidents in (i) 1964 , (ii) 1965 ,, (iii ) 1966 .
of about R18 million , that is just about one third. MR. GUZANA: Are we dealing with the budget now?
(b)
How many Ministers ' cars were involved in car accidents in (i) 1964 , (ii) 1965 , (iii) 1966 , and if any , of which Departments are those Ministers .
(c)
(i)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am telling you what you don't know. It is about one third and is just what my hon. friend across the floor desires . I now come to the question of the Sons of the Transkei . I can dismiss that in only one sentence. The likeness of paper , type and the like is a 24.
Under what circumstances did these accidents Occur in
respect of (b) (i ) , (ii) (iii) respectively .
(ii)
(iii )
(d)
Finance:-
and
If the fault in each case was on the part of the drivers have they been made to pay , if not, why not?
(a)
Since the establishment of tribal authorities , how many such authorities are there in each of the nine regions?
(b)
Have any discrepancies in the handling of the tribal funds been found in any tribal authorities , if so, which are those tribal authorities and in what regions are they?
(c)
Further, what were the causes of the discrepancies?
(d)
What measures have been undertaken to redress irregularities in those cases?
(e)
In cases there were court proceedings in respect of any such irregularities with some tribal authorities , can copies of court records be tabled for our perusal?
Are there any of those drivers involved in the accidents still employed as drivers?
In case a Minister was not in the car at the time of accident, why was his car driven in his absence? In case there were accidents can police and/or copy of court records be tabled for our perusal?
REPLY : (a) (i)
13 .
(ii)
50 .
(iii)
30.
REPLY: (b)
(i)
2 cases of reportable damage occurred of which one was extensive and is thus listed as an accident.
(ii)
17 cases of reportable damage occurred of which 4 were of such a nature as to be categorised as accidents .
(iii)
3 cases of reportable damage occurred none of which were of a major nature or classifiable as accidents .
Departments: Justice 1 .
(i )
(a)
(i) (ii) (iii) (iv) (v) (vi) (vii) (viii) (ix) (b)
1964
(ii) 1965 Justice 2. Education 1. terior 1 . (iii) 1966 Nil.
The following number of tribal authorities was established in the nine regions of the Transkei :
-
(i)
(ii)
(iii) (d)
21 18 8 3 22 14 10 28 14 .
It is assumed that by discrepancies the honourable member means
In-
shortages. The following shortages have been discovered since
-
11th December, 1963 in the books of the following tribal authorities : (i)
(c)
Dalindyebo Emboland Emigrant Tembuland Fingo Gcaleka Maluti Nyanda Qaukeni Umzimkulu
All accidents
and cases of reportable damage occurred in the course of official duties .
Dalindyebo Region: Qwati Tribal the Authority in Engcobo district. A shortage of R157.75 was discovered by the Magistrate , Engcobo . This shortage is being refunded by the tribal secretary .
The fault did not in all cases lie with the drivers of the Ministers' cars . Where such was the case action was taken in terms of the regulations and standing circulars .
(ii)
Yes .
One case occurred where on route to the sleeping quarters provided for the driver the latter overturned the vehicle . The Transkei Governhas no control over South African Police reports or records , whilst court records are available at the offices of the magistrates conIcemed at the usual fee .
Moshesh Region : Maluti Basuto Tribal Authority in the district of Matatiele . The tribal secretary misappropriated an amount of R1119.85 . He was charged criminally and what property he had was attached. In this way an amount of R211.25 was recovered. Two sureties are to make good to the tribal authority an amount of R200.00.
(iii)
QUESTION 2. Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of
25.
Nyanda Region: (a) Mtakatye Tribal Authority. An amount of R557.70 was defalcat-
ed. The matter was in-
ly of the Government . Now the words "unintentional mistakes " could refer to (iii) (b) · that is , the Emcwebeni tribal
vestigated by the police but the Attorney-General refused to prosecute . Two sureties made good an amount of R200.00 to the tribal authority.
AL 31 $ 75
(b)
authority , where you find a shortage of R20 , but the reply says " or defalcations" . There could however be a mistake in the entries of the tribal authority.
Emcwebeni Tribal Authoshortage rity. A of R20.00 was discovered by the Magistrate , Ngqeleni . The amount
MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply by the hon . the Chief Minister, I would like to know if it is not the intention of the Govemment to take over the employment of secretaries of these tribal authorities . I am forced to ask that
was paid in by the tribal secretary.
(iv)
question in view of the damage that it appears the secretaries of these tribal authorities are capable of doing.
Another suspected case of defalcation of tribal moneys is being investigated at the moment. As the case is under
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think the hon. member should put the question in writing.
investigation I cannot, unfortunately, release particular thereanent.
1
NO-CONFIDENCE. (c)
The
shortages
occurred
either
The debate was resumed. through unintentional mistakes or defalcations.
(d)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , when we adjourned yesterday I was busy lacerating the Opposition and showing them that they live constantly in a fool's paradise and
Provision was made last year in regulations issued in terms of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , for the monthly accounts of all lower authorities to be checked monthly by the magistrate, the Interdepartmental Accountant and the Controller and Audi tor-General. Furthermore tribal secretaries are required to fumish surety or fideslity bonds . J
(e)
that they are labouring under several misapprehensions of facts . I was proving to them that the salaries for labourers quoted by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition were in fact less than the salaries paid by the Transkei Government to its labourers . Now to come to the semi- skilled labourers , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said that in Natal Class 3 gets R366 per annum and that Class 2 gets R450 per annum. Now in our case we have one class and one scale which starts off with R276 rising by R24 and thereafter to R576 , as against the highest in Natal of R450 , so that anybody with intelligence can see that there is absolutely no substance in the allegation that we pay our labourers less then the labourers are paid in Natal. Now let us go to the driver/ operators . In Natal there are four classes varying in salary from R408 to R576 . In the Transkei we have two classes . We have dirver/operator with a scale from R336 x R42 R660 and thereafter to R7 20. The second class is R5 34 x R42 - R660 and then to R1.020 rising by R60 . You therefore can see from this that in Natal the highest is only half as much as our highest here in the Transkei . So I will advise you in future , before you criticize be sure of your facts otherwise you will ever get this boomerang. Coming to the school buildings , even there the hon . Leader of the Opposition displayed an amount of ignorance of what is taking place in the Education Department and I will request you again to try and in fact condescend , if it is condescension at all , to approach us in our offices to find out about these things before you come and make fools of yourselves . (Laughter) The hon . Leader did
The honourable member's attention is invited to rule 86 (X) of the rules of procedure published under Proclamation No. 309 of 1963 These documents are available at the respective magistrate's offices .
MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply by the hon. the Chief Minister, in (c) it says " The shortages occurred either through unintentional mistakes or defalcations . " Does the Government give us to understand that such globular sums of money can disappear unintentionally? Is it due to lack of efficiency and understanding by the officers concemed? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is "either/or". Learn your English. MR. RAJUILI: Since he headed the Department of Education he thinks he is a professor of the English language . That is my question, Mr. Chairman . THE
MINISTER
OF
FINANCE:
Mr.
Chairman, in reply to the question raised by the hon . member, I wish to point out that the tribal authority secretaries are not officials of the Government. They are the employees of tribal authorities , independent-
26 .
not even know the amount that the Government is prepared to contribute for each classroom . He did not even know whether this amount was applicable to the secondary schools or to the primary schools . Now , to clear the mist away from the misty minds of the Opposition ( Laughter) I would like to quote the following: (a ) The erection
and this is being done in a responsible and realistic manner. More information in this regard will be given to you during the time when a discussion is carried on on the Vote on Education . With regard to expert knowledge , I think the difficulty is that the Opposition expects the Govemment Departments to run to them now and again and inform them about what is taking place . They go about eavesdropping in the street comers , finding false information and
of all permanent buildings for post-primary education will be the responsibility of the Department of Roads and Works . (b) The erection of primary school buildings in urban areas that is , those schools which lie in towns and villages , which do not fall under the jurisdiction of tribal authorities will be the responsibility of the Department of Roads and Works . (c) Responsibility for the erection of primary school buildings situated in areas controlled by tribal authorities will be that of the tribal authorities , and where the latter do not as yet function the school committees must assume this responsibility. (Interjections)
coming to this House and making use of it. As proof of this the hon . the Leader of the Opposition yesterday made a false allegation to the effect that at the Cicira school where there is a refresher course , an Afrikaans instructor is an African . The truth of the matter is that the teacher in charge of Afrikaans is a well qualified Afrikaans teacher who is Afrikaans speaking. (Interjections ) On the question of experts in education - that is , experts who must be drawn from outside the Transkei the hon . the Leader of the Opposition yesterday said, inter alia: "We seek a department which will make it possible for educational experts and teachers to come to the Transkei and instruct. " This is what the Education Department in the Transkei is embarking upon . At the present moment we have in the Transkei an exdirector of education of Basutoland who is an expert in arithmetic and mathematics . He is in fact today giving instruction to the field staff on the new approach to arithmetic and mathematics . His name is Mr. Walton . Such men will in future give instruction on various other subjects . Also in line with this , a circuit inspector and a vice-principal of a training school were sent to Paarl in the Cape on a fortnight's course and others will be sent to Port
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE
EDUCATION : MINISTER OF Where ignorance is bliss ' tis folly to be wise . The position of school committees is set out in paragraph 4 hereunder. Financial responsibility to show that the Government is responsibly for financing the building of schools . Is that clear? The financial assistance which has to be given to tribal authorities for these buildings has been calculated after careful technical research . That is to show you that the figures that were quoted are not mere arbitrary figures . They have been calculated from experience by the Department of Roads and Works , which has hitherto undertaken the building each of schools . They know how much standard classroom should cost. The cost
Elizabeth in July . Now coming to the points raised by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition in connection with the teaching aids . This suggestion is being implemented in our training colleges and the students are expected to be in possession of the teaching aids when they leave college.
per building mentioned is based on plans prepared by the Department of Roads and Works. If you have any doubt about this you should go and see the school at the location. (Interjections ) Just listen . Pigheadedness does not help and if this is too far for you you can go to Sithebe on the 5th May and you will see the standard of the classrooms that are referred to here . The
MR. GUZANA: Any follow-up they have gone into the field?
plans made provision for buildings of a reasonable standard and this is as follows: Classrooms , R1,350 per classroom; office
after
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is the duty of the field staff.
for principal, R360 ; store - room , R240 ; staff room R4 80. Now with regard to the point raised by the hon . the Leader of the
MR . T.H. BUBU : Are teaching aids provided by the Department or bought by the students ?
Opposition in regard to the qualifications of teachers . the qualifications as quoted by him are ideal , but if we were to apply these standards immediately we would have no schools because it would be difficult to find professional men and women with these qualifications in line
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are provided by the Department. The next point is intimidation of voters during the bye-elections. I think in this regard I should say from the very on set that the Leader of the Opposition has taken advantage of the English dictum which says "Attack is the best way of defence " . As a result of many malpractices , atrocities and irregularities which obtained in the two electoral regions of Dalindyebo and Nyanda .... (Interjections )
with the ideal as suggested by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. GUZANA: I gave them as an ideal . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Department is gradually raising the standard
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
27.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : ... and which he might have anticipated would be mentioned from this side of the House , he decided to mention it first.
when the Bill, now an Act, on trading was being discussed the Government made an undertaking that they would see to it that over-trading was avoided.
MR. GUZANA: And remind you of the things you did in those areas.
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Despite the radius of two miles being abolished?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There are so many reports which have poured in after the bye-elections that such malpractices and irregularities are presently a subject of investigation .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There was an undertaking , if you were in this House , that over-trading would be avoided. Now that was as a result of a hue and cry from that side of the House to the effect that if the two mile radius was removed the consequence would be over-trading.
MR . GUZANA: Is it-a one-sided investiMR. GUZANA: If I were to give you more information , the population in this area is adequate to carry two or more traders.
gation? Will you let the Opposition be represented on that investigating committee? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The investigations are carried on as the reports have come in . There is no question of onesidedness or two- sidedness . MR .
GUZANA:
Will the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That we are not sure of and you did not say it. I am replying to what you said . Now , if in the first place , the granting of trading licences rests with the tribal authorities (Interjections) the position is this the tribal authorities are composed of reasonable men and it is expected of them that they will always exercise that discretion judiciously.
sheep report
to the jackal that he has eaten its lamb? (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As you like it. In one area we have information that a very important chief and a member of this House (I am looking at him now with my piercing eye ) (Laughter) actually allocated to himself the duty of disqualifying one of the presiding officers, swearing in his own and replacing that other whom he had disqualified.
MR. GUZANA: And politically.
pricking him at this moment.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now you will find that all the blame for the defalcations of money were on the tribal authority secretaries. (Interjections) The trouble with you is that you like talking so much that you don't listen. The zoning of towns · with regard to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's statement to the effect that in Norwood, for instance , there is multi-racialism...
MR. RAJUILI: How many would you see if you tumed round that way?
MR . racialism.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You were in the slums of Johannesburg when we were carrying on elections here so you know absolutely nothing about it. This very same . important personality went to another polling station , collected all the reference books from the voters outside and handed them in with instructions that a X be made opposite the name of a DP candidate . (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ....he has absolutely misdirected himself in this particular fact. The position , as you know, is that Norwood used to be a residential area for White people and then the Coloured people came in. Then it was zoned for Black occupation and ownership . It should be obvious to anybody that for the time being, while the African people are buying properties in Norwood and while some White and Coloured people have not yet sold their properties, there will be this temporary multi-racialism.
MR. GUZANA : Are you saying that with a straight face because his conscience is
MR. RAJUILI : What did the presiding officer do about it? It is unbelievable .
MR . ever.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Now if you stop barking at the air like a lot of irresponsible little puppies I shall be glad to proceed. I may remind you that when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was speaking to this motion we gave him all the listening and we expect that from you, even though we know you are a group of irresponsible people. (Interjections)
Residential
multi-
LUWACA: Which will go on for
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In fact some of us who look on these things objectively are proud of the way the Africans have started infiltrating into Norwood. Now on the question of influx control .... MR. LUWACA: Which you have propagated .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE group of give us a licences , to have
GUZANA:
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Which is your political stamp. I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows that the influx control regulations stem from the Consolidated Urban Areas Act , No. 25 of
MINISTER OF EDUCATION : A unmanageable individuals . Now chance. On the question of trading all those who are not unfortunate short memories will recall that
28.
1945. Now I think some cobwebs need to be removed from some of you . The policy of separate development has never been intended to prevent people from going to work. People can go to work and come back to their areas . (Interjections ) It does not matter how they go but the position is that the people are expected to go away to work and come back . (Interjections)
the land up to the Fish River? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That has been said that we should have the land to the Fish River. That is why the Leader of the Opposition... (Interjections) MR. GUZANA: You are arguing now on a false premise . THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. Hon. members , I must ask you not to interfere . You are making a noise , not making interjections .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Why being driven away from the Cape?
are they
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I wish to remind you , hon . members , that the taxes collected in the Transkei amount to one-sixth of the total revenue of the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is why the Transkei Government is taking up the matter with the South African Government. MR.
LUWACA:
Is
that
OPPOSITION indirect tax?
your policy?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not our policy. You are mustified by that stuff. The position is that you people go about telling the people a lot of untruths . Now I would like the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , when he stands up to round off, to tell us how you, if you group of unmanageable individuals came into power, would alter the laws made by the Republican Government .
ANA
MR . GUZ ty tuali then ?
ider
: Why cons
-
the even
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : ... you would form a revolutionary government and therefore would not be able to get a grant of five-sixths from the Republican Government.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I would like you to tell how you , sitting in this House , could be able to alter the laws made by the Republican Government. The position is that you go about telling the people what you cannot do. You go about, for instance , telling the people that you want to go to Parliament in Cape Town. Come
about
Republican Government. Now your policy , which is in direct contrast to the policy of the Transkei Government and also to the policy of the South African Government, makes me come to this conclusion that nt h rnme if ever you form a gove (whic , of r se cour , you will neve be able to do ) ...
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I would like you to tell this House how you would do it. (Interjections)
GUZANA:
What
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The taxes paid by the taxpayers of the Transkei amount to one-sixth of the total revenue of the Transkei and five- sixths of the total revenue of the Transkei comes from the
MR. GUZANA: Are you admitting defeat now?
MR. control.
MEMBER:
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: They are reasonable and they know how to deal with reasonable people . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They know how to deal with fools . (Laughter) Now where would you get the money? Of course I quoted to you yesterday and showed you where you belong and that is where you would get the money - from all the communistically-inclined countries. (Interjections)
back to influx
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is just by the way to try and find out the truth from you of some of these false statements you tell the people . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now even there there is a question. You on the other side do not want independence . Even at that, how would you get money from other countries when you are still under the Republican Government? The position is this ....
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Tell us how you would get to Parliament in Cape Town . That is one of the things we have been asking for the last three years and you have not been able to reply to that question because you cannot tell us how you would do it. (Interjections)
MR . T.H. BUBU: You replying to this debate.
are no longer
MR . C.S. MDA: Posterity is not in our hands . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How do you hope to achieve it? That is a question because you have been telling the people you are going to do it.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have got to search you . You say you can form an alternative government and we must see you for what you are , and I am showing the country just what you are.
MR. MDA: How are you going to obtain
MR. 0.0 . MPONDO : The whole country
29.
decided to give us a self- government . The members of the Territorial Authority at the time requested ...
knows what type of man you are . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And the whole country knows what type of man you are fortunately. Mr. Chairman , hon. members , I think I have now exhausted all I want to say because , in fact, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for a change that of this time adopted other tactics telling the Government, and dwelling at length especially on the Education Department, what the shortages are.
MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , the hon . member is introducing altogether a new motion that has no bearing on the motion in front of us. MR. DIKO: I am discussing a vote of no confidence and the people must not look for excuses here and there . I am in order. The people of the Transkei have no confidence in the two parties . (Laughter) The DP has gone around... (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA: Is that not the responsibility of an Opposition?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. I think you can carry on.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think I have sufficiently shown the House that in most of the things he said he was labouring under a misapprehension. I think I have said enough when I said the influx control regulations stem from an Act of the Republican Government and which Act is beyond our power except for negotiations which we can have with the Republican Government, and which we are doing. (Inter-
MR. DIKO : Thank you. My point is that the people of the Transkei at the beginning thought the DP would stand for their interests and have now found that it does not stand for their interests.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
jections)
MR. DIKO: The important thing to be realised by any member of the DP is that the people of the Transkei requested for request request freedom , independence , human rights.
MR. GUZANA: With a "kierie"? THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And what I would like to know from you is how you would alter that Act. (Interjections) I was saying that I have showed this House that most of the criticisms that were levelled
THE MINISTER about equal pay?
OF
JUSTICE :
What
MR. DIKO: Yes , that is perfectly true equal pay. (Laughter) Now the members of the DP are asking for a provincial status in other words , members of the DP are refusing the issue of independence.
in this House are things which are actually receiving the attention of the Government. In fact, most of the things said stemmed out of absolute ignorance of what is actually taking place.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Is that why you resigned?
MR. RAJUILI : Is your Government trying to change the policy of the Republican Government?
MR. DIKO : I myself, while I was in the DP was taken away by the stream because I thought these gentlemen were wanting independence , but I discovered that they were against independence . However , the Leader of the Government Party is putting wrongly when he says I decided to leave a sinking ship.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I move therefore that this House has full confidence in the Government. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I beg to second the amendment.
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. rise on a point of order?
MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with your permission I wish to make an amendment to the original motion to which I shall speak. The amendment is to delete all the words from " House" and substitute "the people of the Transkei have no confidence in this Legislative Assembly". Mr. Chairman, I am very, very pleased to speak to you on the fact that the people of the Transkei have, since the inception of this Legislative Assembly, lost confidence in the Assembly, Sir.
Chairman ,
may I
MEMBERS: Sit down. MR . DIKO : I realise that the members of the DP, instead of representing the people in the Legislative Assembly, have turned into associates of the TNI P. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , may I draw the attention of the House to rule 73 (b) which reads : " Members may propose more than one amendment to a motion under discussion but a proposal to further amend a proposal amendment shall be out of order. "
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I would like to know whether this House is in order. I submit that we are not.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are wrong. Sit down. Your interpretation of that sub-section is wrong.
MR. DIKO : May the hon. member read regulation 33 and he will know that the House is in order. What we want to bring to the House is a true understanding as to why the Government of the Republic ever
THE CHAIRMAN: And then?
30.
intelligent, thinking person to to see the Leader of the Opposition party and the members of the Opposition sitting comfortably in their chairs when the hon. Dr. Bala was being taken out of the House illegally. Where have they ever had a just Government giving a sentence before a trial?
MR. DIKO : While the reverend gentleman is still confused , Mr. Chairman , may I continue? (Laughter) I am sure the hon. Paramount Chiefs of Nyandeni and Dalindyebo are themselves disappointed because they know what took place in the T.T.A. and know what Dr. Verwoerd said to them when they were in Pretoria or Cape Town , when he said: "I want to give the people of the Transkei democracy in its true perspective . I want to have more representatives elected by the people ." So the proposal for independence was from Paramount Chief Sabata and supported by the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni , but now they are fighting against what they themselves requested. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you are out of order , hon. member. Come to the motion. MR. DIKO: I am speaking to the motion . THE CHAIRMAN: No , you are out of order. MR. DIKO: If the Chairman says I must not touch on that subject I will leave it, Sir. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR . DIKO : What we want is a platform where we can request freedom for the Transkei . We do not want to live together with the Europeans whom we know have always. suppressed us .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. DIKO : Let us be patient one with the other. We are now in the fourth year of the life of this Parliament. Can we point to anything that we have done for the country? What is it that we have done for the people? What the people asked us to do was to get them their freedom, but it is clear that Matanzima has been bribed by the Europeans . (Laughter) Instead of the Leader of the Democratic Party making that very clear he said " I beg to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. the Chief Minister" . (Laughter) So the members of the DP have turned to associate with the Government party. We want a Government that will speak the language of the people. What is the voice of the masses of the Transkei ? Aren't they crying for freedom? Is that freedom being granted to the people of the Transkei ? If it is not granted, what is the Opposition party doing about it? All they are doing is to go around asking for provincial status , asking for more qualified teachers , asking for roads not to be built in this country. We must look at the Republican Government which has two main parties . They have a common bond of agreement as a party which stands for the aspirations of the Afrikaans- speaking people and that common aspiration is the oppression of the Black man in South Africa . Now look at the Opposition in the Transkei . What is f the one bond which they have in common with the Governing party in the Transkei ? None. Just a starting point → what is it? They do not want independence ; they do not want equal pay for equal work; they do not separate development. They want to go to Cape Town. (Laughter) We are Transkeians . and I have always known and seen that we are Transkeians , but because of the trend . of politics our minds have been muddled and
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear , hear. MR . DIKO : What we want is that every European who wants to remain in the Transkei may do so , but he must do so on equal terms with the citizens of the Transkei and he will be paid equal pay for equal work with an African . Now you listened yourselves very carefully to the speech made by the Leader of the Democratic Party. Can't you see that he is actually going hand in hand with the Leader of the Government Party? He is making suggestions to the Leader of the Government party, which suggestions are being implemented by the Government party. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Opposition is finished.
Good.
The
MR. DIKO : He goes on to attack the teachers for inefficiency and , though he did not mention him by name , he also attacked one of the most respected men in this country, Mr. Ndamse . Why is he against Africans being given work when they are suitable for that work? But you hear him asking for the magistrates to be given control over the people of the Transkei? Why? (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: But you quarrelled over the leadership. MR. DIKO : Did you hear him quarrelling with the Department of Roads and Works over using machinery to make good roads? Let us speak the truth . If the people have asked us to seek freedom for them, let us seek freedom from the Europeans . This has been the cry of the people since the time of General Hertzog . It was first termed segregation , then there came the wise people such as the late Dr. Verwoerd. Now they term it "apartheid" . Our question now is: If the Europeans say they want to give freedom to the Transkei on parallel lines , the people are now.... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : interpreter cannot hear.
Order,
they should be made clear. So our common stand must be freedom for the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: At one time you wanted 45 Guzanas in this Assembly. MR. DIKO: Yes , at one time I did , but you know the one who gave us 45 elected members at the time was Chief Matanzima . THE member.
please . The
MR . DIKO : It is most surprising to any
CHIEF
MINISTER :
The
hon.
MR . DIKO : Created by the hon. Chief
31.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That book is from Cape Town. It is not for the Transkei .
of Emigrant Tembuland. Now I want to deal just for a few short minutes with the Government party. The hon. Paramount Chief of Pondoland wants independence . Eastern
THE SECRETARY: I am reading from Gilpin, page 63. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We all want it. MR. DIKO : We will not listen to books which are not from this House.
MR. DIKO: Unfortunately, the hon. the Chief Minister is so clever that he has made use of all the paramount chiefs and chiefs on his side to promote him to the highest rank. (Laughter) The hon . the Chief Minister does not want independence like the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE SECRETARY : Page 63 Rules Governing Amendments . The particular section is this : " The first and most important restriction is that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed."
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want independence.
MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman , I object to the reading of that book which has never been handed to the members of this Assembly.
MR. DIKO: Now, if I may be allowed , he has been literally bought by the Afrikaner of this country. He is a puppet of the Republican Government because the world at large wants to be given freedom. Dr. Verwoerd and others did not want to come out in their true colours , that they did not want to give freedom to the people so they looked for a man who had a lion's heart whom they could set and direct how to keep the nigger in his proper place . So he has got paramountcy.
THE CHAIRMAN : Now the question is one of confidence or no confidence in the Government of the Transkei? MR . DIKO: And then?
hon.
THE CHAIRMAN : The amendment, hon. member, deals with confidence or no confidence in this Assembly. It is a different subject altogether.
member , I am afraid you are really out of order. Your amendment is out of order. You will have to read further regulations on this.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I still appeal to you....
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Excuse
me,
THE CHAIRMAN : You made a special motion on that.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , in terms of rule 40 you cannot allow a er to impute impute improper motives to member another member. I appeal to you , Sir, that the hon . member should withdraw all the words he has said about me . (Interjections)
should
have
MR . DIKO : Mr. Chairman , I want to know where you get that, because the book I have allows me to make amendments . It is this European interference which we get in this House.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. Will you mention the exact words he said? THE CHAIRMAN : I refer members to rule 167. The Secretary will read it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He said I had been made a lion by Dr. Verwoerd to set me on the African people. That is what he said and it is imputing improper motives . He cannot impute improper motives.
THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , rule 167 deals with cases not provided for. "In every case not provided for in these rules of procedure or in the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , the Chairman shall decide , taking for his guide the rules and practice of the House of Assembly of the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa in so far as they can be applied or adapted to the proceedings of the Assembly. "
THE CHAIRMAN: Do you withdraw those words? MR. DIKO : I do not understand , Mr. Chairman . Which words? If I am passing a vote of no confidence I must analyse the position.
MR. DIKO: Having given us that regulation , will you adjourn the House so that we can read the book?
THE CHAIRMAN: I am asking you a simple question . Will you withdraw those words .
THE CHAIRMAN: It is rule 167. I have already ruled you out of order. Your amendment is wrong.
MR . DIKO : I never said he was made a lion. You can appeal to the records. I never said that. (Interjections)
MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman , will you allow me to amend my amendment? (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman... THE CHAIRMAN : Just a moment, please. I just want to rule him out of order. I will ask the Secretary to read the paragraph.
THE CHAIRMAN : Not now. MR. DIKO : Yes , adjourn now and give . me time after dinner.
MR. DIKO: Which book is that?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman ,
THE CHAIRMAN: Just listen , please .
32.
I see you are about to adjourn this House. I still appeal to you that in terms of rule's 40 and 41 the hon . member should withdraw all the nasty words and imputations he has made about me . Rule 40 says a member shall not impute improper motives to another member and rule 41 says a member shall not make a personal charge or use offensive or unbecoming words to any member of the has made irresponsible Assembly. He statements about me . He has called me a a stooge . What is that? THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . shall now adjourn until 2.15 .
members ,
Inst Mr.inS.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman, can I -be allowed to ask a few questions? THE CHAIRMAN : No , I will not allow you . I am referring to the hon . Mr. Diko . MR. DIKO: I regret I do not understand the ruling of the Chaiman, so I am requesting you to give me a day ...
THE CHAIRMAN : I am asking you a simple question. Do you withdraw?
we
sking the Chairman to MR . DIKO : I am asking give me a chance to think over what you said to me.ro
The debate was adjourned.. AFTERNOON SESSION .
The
Assembly resumed
THE CHAIRMAN : I will not do that. Are you prepared to withdraw? I am saying this gand asd ad for the second time. and audi 10
at 2.15 p.m.
The debate was resumed. MR . DIKO : So there is no freedom of expression in this House? Now to satisfy the Chair I will bow down to your ruling .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the House , when we adjourned just before lunch I was appealing to you that in terms of rules 40 and 41 the hon. member across the floor could not be allowed to impute and that he could a personal charge becoming words in
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , that is not a withdrawal.
improper motives to me not be allowed to make or use offensive or unreference to me. He said
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you withdrawing?
MR. DIKO: I have said so . I am bowing down to your ruling. I am doing exactly 15010 what you said I must do . oved tw
I had been bought by the Afrikaner but he did not say for how much . In fact he said so many things that I have forgotten some of them. I am appealing to you , Sir , that the hon . member should withdraw those words .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaimman ,.. THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second , please , Chief. I am giving you a final waming, hon . member. Are you prepared to withdraw?
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wish to notify this House that Mr. Diko's amendment is out of order and I therefore rule it out of order, so you need not worry about it any more. MR .
S.M.
THE
CHAIRMAN :
SINABA :
Mr.
Just
MR. DIKO: I am prepared to withdraw, Mr. Chaiman and hon. members , at your order.
Chairman .. a
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , he cannot qualify the withdrawal. He is actually insulting the Chair now.
moment ,
please . I shall now ask the Secretary to read the exact words uttered by Mr. Diko .
MR. DIKO : Mr. Chairman , I have said I am withdrawing . Now what else do you want from me?
THE SECRETARY: This is the extract from Mr. Diko's address: " Now, if I may be allowed, he has been literally bought by the Afrikaner of this country. He is a puppet of the Republican Govemment because the world at large wants to be given freedom . Dr. Verwoerd and others did not want to come out in their true colours , that they did not want to give freedom to the people so they looked for a man who had a lion's heart whom they could set and direct how to keep the nigger in his proper place . So he has got paramountcy."
THE
CHAIRMAN :
You
say "at
my
order" . Those were your last words . MR. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and members , I am prepared to withdraw.
hon.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Then if he is prepared to withdraw, he should withdraw, Mr. Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN : Mr. Diko , I name you . Sergeant-at-arms take him out.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I hope the hon . Mr. Diko has now heard his exact words . There wasn't anything very serious in his speech . He used an expression saying it was Dr. Verwoerd who actually appointed the Chief Minister. The Chief Minister was appointed here in the Transkei . He never bought any Chief Minister and now I wish to ask the hon . member to withdraw the words .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I move that. the member be suspended for seven days.... OPPOSITION MEMBER: The Chairman can use his discretion . THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not a matter of discretion now. I am moving this
33.
as a motion.
do that there would be no need to take a vote.
Mr. C. Diko left the House , escorted THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I think my hon . friend across the floor should be the first person to understand that the hon . members of this House should show the country a certain amount of
by the Sergeant-at- Arms . THE CHAIRMAN : Is there any seconder? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , and that his salary and any allowances payable to him for that period by reason of his being a member of this Assembly should be deducted.
decency . I appealed to the Chair to call upon the hon . member for Qaukeni region , Mr. Cromwell Diko to withdraw the words he uttered · words which were abusive not only of the highest figure in the Transkei , but also of our late Prime Minister, Dr. Verwoerd. Now that was simple enough, but to show that this hon . gentleman was
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr. Chairman . THE
CHAIRMAN :
Does
the
contemptuous he just could not agree to withdraw the words. He was contemptuous this time of the Chair. We cannot allow that situation to go on . Unless we have to handle one another with arms in this
House
agree? MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chaiman , I want to raise a waming about the manner in which the rules of this House are used.
House, we have got to obey the authority of the Chair. Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
Whilst there is provision in the regulations for naming , and also for depriving a member of his emoluments whilst he is in attendance, we should not run extremely into that
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put it to the vote. Does the House agree? OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No.
punitive measure.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What about the man running extremely in his behaviour?
The motion was carried by 57 votes to
2. THE CHAIRMAN : We shall resume the debate on the motion of no confidence .
MR. GUZANA: If a man has been named by the Chair and sent out he has been adequately punished . I think we are infusing a certain amount of ruthlessness
MR. J. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think that in the deliberations of the two Parliaments it is the twelfth hour of the day which seems to cause disturbances in the discussions . The late
into these regulations and I do not think that is the intention of these regulations. They are merely used to maintain law and order and in view of the fact that the Chairman has already punished this member I see no reason why there should be further
Dr. Verwoerd met his death actually round about 12 o'clock. Likewise in the deliberations of the Transkei Legislative Assembly it was about 12 o'clock when trouble began in the discussion . The hon . member for Qaukeni has put off the mind of this House and as he was out of order I shall likewise
punishment imposed. You will see , Mr. Chairman , I am speaking objectively on this matter because I have no reason to be thankful to that hon . member, (Laughter) but I think we should exercise these powers provided for in these regulations with some humanity .
leave reference to what he said as having been out of order. I now come back to answer the hon . the Minister of Education. If it were possible that whoever was going to speak would first of all be mentally examined to find out whether or not what he was going to say would be sound, we should have to employ the services of a medical doctor. We have made a big mistake by allowing any mover to say fully what he wanted to say without having first found out what he wanted to say. I refer particularly to the hon. Minister and his Department, for he has not shown that he understands the duties devolving upon him in that Department. First of all , the appointment of teachers in the schools in the
THE CHAIRMAN : The motion has been supported. All I want to know is whether the House agrees . OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No , THE CHAIRMAN : We shall now take a vote on it. OPPOSITION motion.
MEMBERS:
Read
the
MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I think the position in which we now find ourselves is one in which we should appeal to the hon. the Chief Minister through you , Sir, to the end that in the light of the words
Transkei is surprising. There are school committees which are entrusted with the work of looking after the welfare of the school , and their duty of appointment was given to the regional authorities. The regional authority nominates the teacher
said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition he should withdraw his motion , or that section of the motion which refers to the reduction of the member's emoluments . If the hon. the Chief Minister is prepared to
and they send their nominations to the Government. Now here is a surprising feature . The hon. the Minister of Education
34.
does not consider in his decision any of these organisations . What we do note is that a number of applicants come in the buses to Umtata to seek employment in the schools . On the return of the applicant from Umtata he holds a letter of appointment to give to the secretary who does not know anything whatsoever about the appointment of the applicant. The letter gives instructions to the effect that the teacher must be taken into such- and- such a school.
that the salary scales had been raised . Why was it that in the year 1965 this increment was not afforded the teachers who had already served a long time , so that they could have the fruits of their labours? The graduated teachers in the secondary schools have been promoted to positions of supervisers and with this promotion coming into effect the students lack teachers . Further these graduated teachers who are promoted to the inspectorate have not had any experience of primary teaching and they do not know exactly what the work is . It is important to have an educated inspector to actually inspect the work of unqualified teachers . (Interjections) Further , Mr. Chairman , the hon . the Minister of Education , in referring to the vote of no confidence in the Government by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition , referred to rumours which could not be proved true and he referred to a school where Afrikaans is taught at the present time. We would ask whether it was not the truth that a teacher who had been given this promotion was taken in aa cartto a destination he did not know. It is with regard to these things that we feel the hon . the Minister of Education should go into these matters and satisfy the people. I would now like to refer to the Transkei name Independence Party. It is just because the people are not independent. The side of the House which calls itself the Independence Party looks as if it has no knowledge of Independence . The hon . the Chief Minister had a meeting at the location with members of his party where made the statement that independence is not child's play; and the CommissionerGeneral has referred to this by saying that independence requires that first of all the Transkei people should be fed. When the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic was welcomed at the commonage he said among other things that there was no reason why he should be received and welcomed here because he was on his own ground. Can the hon. the Chief Minister contradict the statement that we have time and again said the Transkei is part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa, which means that complete independence is a thing that will never be for the Transkei . The hon . the Chief Minister, together with the Prime Minister, said that they are negotiating for the withdrawal of influx control . I do not know how he will escape the statement made by the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Development who said that annually five per cent of the Bantu people would have to be sent back to their homes , which fact makes us feel that the people who are being sent back will now have to be recruited to the work centres under contract. We do not know what work is provided for the people being sent back, because even the Department of Agriculture has only a small place provided for the labourers at Butterworth . Evidence that this was a needless expenditure is that it is only a roof supported by a few poles . (Laughter) Nothing is being provided for the people who are being sent back home . The hon. the Chief Minister was responsible for the people being sent out of Cape Town and he left many of them within prison walls . We contend that the Government must go round looking to the
Evidently the regional authorities have no work to do in this connection . If the hon. the Minister of Education would refute this statement, I shall give instances where such things have occurred. Does this House know that appointments are now made at Umtata by the Minister? It is one of the reasons which compels us to move that we have no confidence in the Government of the Transkei . Now we come to the examinations of children in the schools . In the whole of the Transkei we are aware that in the schools during examinations copying takes place . I cannot even mention the schools where such things have taken place until an investigation was made as to the procedure in these examinations . The surprising thing is that after the investigations we hear no report at all. We do not hear that any teacher has been told about this or has been dismissed from employment because of such actions . I wonder if the Government has made up its mind not to put right anything that is not in order . Further , the Education Department speaks very highly about the raising of salary scales of teachers . Certainly we agree because we note that a scale of that nature has been brought into effect since April of this year, but let us look thoroughly into these increments . I have in front of me the salary scales referring to the NPL teachers we have just been speaking about. A lady teacher starts at R366 rising by R42 to R660. When you look thoroughly at that scale you find that a teacher takes seven years before he reaches that top notch I have just mentioned . There are teachers now who have only got two or three years to get to that notch . What would please those teachers as far as this scale is concerned without perhaps referring to a higher notch which they could never hope to get to , because there is a further rise from R660 x R60 R840 per annum which takes three years to attain . That is just a dream because the teacher who had only two years to go has now left the profession . Evidently in the drawing up of this scale the Minister did not take into account the teachers who had been in the Department for some time . Now lady primary school teachers starting at R480 x R42 - R660 take six years to reach that top notch . Again that becomes a mere hallucination because it takes five years before they reach that scale. Similarly , male teachers who have matriculation and P.H. teachers ' certificates . I contend that if the Government was aware of this and are well informed about the drawing up of the scale they would have taken into consideration the teachers whose services have already been rendered for some time . The previous Minister is aware of this because he received increments in 1947 . In 1965 he went round telling the teachers
35.
needs of the people and try to meet their requirements . Further, the hon . the Leader
were conducted correctly and the chiefs also came here as elected members , you would not behave in the manner in which you do behave . Further, the fact that you come here as nominees is the reason why the Transkei has no funds , for the candidates for election have to pay a fee and if they fail then they lose the fee and that money goes to the funds of the Transkei Government, ensuring that even the Chief Minister's stipend will be available . Here is a shameful thing about the cars of the Government officials . You meet these XG cars carrying fishing-rods and some of them daily carry children to school . Others carry bread from the bakery to the local shops . (Laughter)
of the Opposition referred to the bye-elections which were conducted in a manner that was not satisfactory to the Transkei . That proves perfectly that the Government is not a Government of the people by the people for the people , and proof is the manner in which the chiefs are installed into chieftainship in the Transkei. When the hon . the Chief Minister had a meeting at Ncambedlana he advised all the chiefs not to allow candidates to belong to the Democratic Party. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He never had a meeting at Ncambedlana .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon .members , I stand up to support the amendment. My duty is very simple because the motion of no confidence was said in so many words , but there was very little substance . The only time that he said something sensible was when he Isaid that this House has no confidence in the Government.
MR. DUMALISILE: During the period when the Chief Minister was in hospital , the acting Chief Minister advised a certain magistrate not to allow our chief to hold a meeting he wanted to have. (Laughter) Negotiations between the two parties went on so that this matter should be looked into but up to this day nothing has been done . (Interjections )
OPPOSITION MEMBERS :
Hear ,
hear.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will just touch on the subjects that have been raised by later speakers , particularly with a view to establishing that the Opposition as composed at present cannot run the government of the Transkei or any other country .
MR .
DUMAL : Chiefta is I LE inship not to lead the pSeI ople but to gove rn the readers , people . Nelson among other 's lesson , used to tell that chiefs were the s rulers of their people , but today the chiefs are referre to as traditi onal leaders of d their people and whenev t i a i er here s n naugurat of a chief you find a politic al ion platfor has been raised in that area and m the chiefs are advised to keep apart from their people becaus the people are Come munist . Now , hon . chiefs , (and I am a s chief like any of you) you are born chiefs and born to tell the people what they ought to do , apart from the fact that you are install c , not chiefs by birth . You ed hiefs ought to know that the leader is a counse llor of the chief . You want to slaught and e at the same time to cook the meatr and serve it to your tribes men . Your people ought not to allow you to serve them with beer , but to dip into a tub and serve the people themsel . (Interjec ) tions ves
CHIEF MINISTER: THE insult the chiefs like that.
You
MR . RAJUILI : We would run the Republic of South Africa. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In the first place I will just invite the House to look at the members and make a crosssection of them as they sit here in front of me. Now tell me of any government that is composed of people , most of whom have been inmates of gaol for one offence or another (Laughter) but chiefly against organised society . In every row in front of me, excluding the Government party, I can name half of the members who have been members of a gaol party.
MR. RAJUILI : How about the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa? Don't exclude him.
can't
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If you want me to give names I will do so because those people cannot name me because I will be stating a fact. Now shall I go on and give names , starting with the front row? Yes or no?
MR. DUMALISILE : I note that the hon . the Chief Minister would like me to go out of the House and would like to withhold my remuneration . (Laughter) Fortunately I have not used any abusive words but have simply told the truth. The Opposition is in the majority with elected members . We are not like people who have sprung up like mushrooms . We have come to this Parliament as a result of being elected by the people. If we were in a really democratic country this side would be the true Government , for a true government is an elected government composed of elected members . It is for that reason that this half-baked Government is SO constituted that the bigger number is composed of nominated members and not those elected by the people . If the elections
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Yes . ( Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well, Mr. Chairman , I was just pulling their legs but there they are . Some of them have been in gaol . Their behaviour is such as reflects their former position , because a responsible person will never be sent to gaol . They are so irresponsible and selfish , thinking only of themselves and not of the rest of society as long as they can collect money from those unfortunate people . They call themselves a Democratic Party. I do
36.
not know why they call themselves that, because as far as I know " democratic" means the exact opposite of what they practise . They are supposed to represent the people , carry out the wishes of the people, visit the people , but as far as I know none of them ever go to the people even after Parliament.... OPPOSITION MEMBER : You are misinformed .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....to tell the people they have done nothing for them, and during the election campaign great stress was laid on the will of the the paramount chief, of course chief course the results went according and of to the will of the paramount chief. OPPOSITION region .
MEMBERS :
Qaukeni
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Wait, the paramount chief is only one man and where is democracy when you can affect the destiny of thousands of people just by the will of one man? We see these things . If you call yourselves democrats , be democratic . Go to the people and ascertain their views before you come to the House, and do not just come here to swear at the chiefs . OPPOSITION MEMBER: happen to be here?
How do you
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You say you represent the people but in what way do you represent them? What do you think of the Transkei ? What is your wish for the Transkei? What would you like to see the Transkei like in ten years' time? I ask this question because during the election campaign some of you from distant areas who call themselves the Democratic Party - the Leader of the Opposition was there and the ex-Leader was there on invitation....
MR . GUZANA: It is not the Government candidate . It is the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland . ( Laughter) ༡ མྱ་ ཨཱ་ཨིན THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Some of your satellites thought that was a proper ticket but they even went further . They e ven threatened those who voted for the candidate with arson . MR . GUZANA : What about the paramount chief threatening deportation ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We only deport people guilty of certain crimes . MR. GUZANA: How about deporting a man for voting for a DP candidate ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : How did they know he was voting for him? MR . GUZANA: It was anticipation . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What I want to say is that you have no policy. You must make our policy your policy. Our policy is soil reclamation , the development of the Transkei , the development of industry and the development of the homelands as such . I listened with interest although with derision to what the Leader of the Opposition tried to bring forth , that people earn R56 somewhere away from their homelands . But there is no need. Why should they eam R56?
MR. GUZANA: Let me correct you . I said they bring in R56 . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Perhaps , but what they bring in is mostly what they earn .
MR . GUZANA: Where was this?
MR.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : At Lusikisiki in Qaukeni area, and perhaps it will be interesting to you to learn of later developments . Now after that meeting you held at Lusikisiki a certain administrative area which had agreed to rehabilitation , after your visit there those people revolted . (Laughter)
GUZANA :
No , that is
not so.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will quote figures . There have been occasions , or there are going to be occasions when a man can make R500 a morgen. We have proved it in the Umgazi valley in a rehabilitated area where we grow between 40 and 60 bags per morgen. (Interjections) Now that is quite possible without going to the Free State or anywhere else. You people must wake the minds of the people , rehabilitate the people , make them think of the Transkei as their home and forget about the Reef. The reason why they earn so little from their lands is simply that they are double -minded in their approach to work. They think if their crop fails there is the Reef, or if no crop at all he can still live by remitting home R56 . But you must disabuse them of that, then if they have got the Transkei as their homeland there will be very few people who will be surplus and who will have to go to your friends on the Reef or the sugar estates or anywhere else .
GUZANA : MR . Didn't they revolt because the hon . the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni said : If you vote for Sobahle I shall not bring rehabilitation into the area? (Laughter) P/CHIEF B. (Laughter)
little location , because you were then expounding the Government policy. It is the policy of the Government to reclaim the the soil. How could the Government candidate opposite the Government policy?
SIGCAU: You will burn .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But I have since surrounded and spoken to them like a father . Your ticket was this : If you vote for the Government member then you invite rehabilitation , but you did not know that the Pondos are very clever. They did not believe you , except for that tiny
37.
MR. GUZANA: I have a suggestion that when you do not get back next year you get an allotment on the Lubisi farm . (Laughter)
by the doorway of Parliament House. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: The trouble is he saw your face .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am just coming to Lubisi because it is one of the developments which you do not seem to appreciate for some reason. MR. L.A. LUWACA: You did not start that. It was started by the Republican Government.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And he suggested that in his policy he would have eight Europeans to represent youl Mrs. Suzman , who is your nearest , although she is as far as from here to Mars the lone to getting you into Parliament voice crying in the wilderness of Israel · she also envisages the few Europeans to represent you . Now where do you come in? And the hon . Mr. Gray Hughes , M.P. for the Transkei has never conferred with you to ask you to accompany him to Cape Town, so that you could second his proposal . (Laughter) Is this soaking into your hollow head?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : My Department is trying to infuse the minds of the people to take more interest in the soil, and with your help I now appeal to you to help the Government in its projects and not ridicule whatever the Government is doing for your people. One hon . member ridiculed a very fine project that was starting at Butterworth and he is very ignorant of true facts , but since he asserted this to you I can explain to you that we have there a very important potential as regards agriculture and industry.
MR . GUZANA: How soak into something hollow?
anything
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am just asking if this is soaking in . In other words , do you follow me? Just tell me how will you get to Cape Town. How will you amend this Act , because it is the Republican Government that will have to repeal or amend this Transkei Constitution Act?
MR. GUZANA: We try to help you to improve and reclaim the soil but you ridicule our efforts . One of your people said that Mr. Guzana had said the people should work the land according to the strictures of efficient and scientific agriculture. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I congratulate you. I cannot be blamed for the sins of my people , just as I cannot be blamed for the sins of the Sons of the Transkei, (Laughter) just as I cannot be blamed for influx control . But I am just stating the Government's policy and asking you to support it.....
MR. GUZANA: I am going to reply to you later. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : When you go to Cape Town and use the back door · Tsafendas's door? Because there is no way of going to Cape Town . MR. GUZANA: I think we must deal with the motion on mental hospitals soon.
MR. RAJUILI: You have hardly said anything about Government policy .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now , Mr. Chairman , if we have anything to go on, we say in Xhosa that experience We have the emergent is the best teacher. African states ....
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....because without your help I must admit, gentlemen, that the Government would find itself in a difficulty . We know you are in opposition to us , but you must be a constructive opposition.
MR. GUZANA: Keep to the homelands .
MR. GUZANA: Wasn't the motion of no confidence constructive?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Those are their homelands · and do you know what? Every time you open your radio or newspaper you find that there is another coup d'etat. Even as late as last night there was one in Togo . There was an
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Without that we might just as well write you away and recognise the new opposition. (Laughter) In any case I just want to say you are aiming at getting to the Republican Parliament.
attempt on the President. Now If you people got the reins of government, how will you avoid that pandemonium that you have up north?
MR. GUZANA : You know , this is much ado about nothing . Why don't you sit down?
MR . GUZANA: You are heading us for pandemonium .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I don't know if you have ever been there . MR.
does
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now you talk of independence . I am not going to say much....
GUZANA: Have you been there?
MR . 0.0 . MPONDO: nothing anyway. Sit down.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I have been there , and I just do not see where you could fit in because when I listened to the discussions there (it was as late as last week) your nearest counterpart, Sir de Villiers Graaff, said that as far as he could see in the foreseeable future no black face would ever be framed
You have
said
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am just watching these people , Mr. Chairman, because I want to name them. (Laughter) Now we have got the co-operative movements.
38 .
MR. GUZANA: Wait for that until you get to your policy speech .
candidate for whom they did not feel like voting. (Interjections) But there is a far more serious aspect of this matter than
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Are you supporting these movements ?
just winning votes or losing votes and we feel very strongly thatt we h ave no confidence in a Government that fails so dismally in that respect which I shall mention in due course . During the remarks of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture he also had something to say about coups d'etats in the emergent countries up north. Without going into the real causes as to why they are so rife in • those countries I submit that the direct responsibility for these coups d'etats in the emergent African states is that the people have not been correctly taught their rights under the democratic form of government . They do not understand their right of electing whom they please to represent exactly the same thing that is perthem taining at the moment in the Territories , Mr. Chairman . At the moment our people are being confused by the members on the other side on this very issue .
THE CHAIRMAN : hon . Minister.
Your
time is up,
MR . C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think it is unfortunate that we have men of the calibre of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry in this House . when he stood up to speak to this motion this afternoon he referred to the members on this side of the House as being unsuitable in looks to be the Government of the Transkei , but he is the type that is really to the dishonour of the Territories , generally speaking . I do not know why his colleagues do not pull him up for his language . He tends to be uncouth . That is just in passing , Mr. Chairman . I will start off by referring to his remarks . He refers with admiration to the fact that they are able to reap about 60 bags somewhere down in the Umgazi valley, and for that reason he feels we should discourage
MR. M.H. CANCA: What about? MR . MDA: I will tell you just now. In Eastern Pondoland every Pondo will tell you that his chief told him to vote So-and-so , otherwise he would be deported. (Interjections) At one polling station which I visited during the bye -election one subheadman told me that if the TNIP candidates lost the election they would not get the pay they had been promised they would get, and these people did not know anything about elective government in the first
people from going to the Republic for employment purposes , as if the production of even 120 bags of mealies would be sufficient for the African to live honourably on. I was reading the other day complaint by the members of the Agricultural Union somewhere in the Transvaal about the reduction in the price of mealies for the season 1967/1968 . That report appeared in the Sunday Times and one of the complainants in that report was a farmer who
instance . Mr. Chairman , where as it is important that the Department of Education should see to it that our people are even given adult education scholastically, politically the Government should be seeing to it that the people are educated democratically.
was capable of producing an average per annum of 3,400 bags of mealies . He complained bitterly that the reduced price of mealies at R3.50 per bag would not see them very well off. As a matter of fact he said they would be unable to meet their commitments with the Government which had subsidised their production . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry considers 60 bags of mealies sufficient for an African to clothe his family, educate his children , attend to their medical wants , be in a position to buy a car and be in possession of a team of, say, four oxen at least; and he proclaims in this House to be working for the betterment of the African in these Territories . The African people will remember these remarks after the 1968 session and I shall do everything I can to remind them about these remarks. THE MINISTER OF You will be wiped out.
THE MINISTER OF your duty to educate them.
JUSTICE :
It is
MR . MDA: The hon. the Minister of Justice interjects just now that it is my duty to educate them. I admit it is , but the disappointment of the whole matter is that when I try to go and educate people I find a blockade . The members on the other side tell my electors not to listen to Mda. (Interjections) "Don't listen to men like Bubu " , they say , " they are telling lies . As a matter of fact, the Government does not want them so do not listen to those people ." Mr. Chairman , this is a terrible situation
AGRICULTURE :
because our people are starting to ask the question : Why were we ever asked to elect people to this Assembly? What is the purpose of electing representatives to that Assembly? If our immediate authorities in the persons of the chiefs are going to tell the people not to listen to those people , why were those people taken there , and why are we still being required to elect others? What type of men are these we are being told to vote for? (Interjections) It never was said to the people that they should elect Government supporters , neither is it the intention of the Transkei Consti-
MR . MDA: Now , the hon. Minister also refers to threats and intimidation that were hurled at the voters by members of this side of the House and he mentioned arson as being one of them, but he did not say that his own side of the House in this respect is not innocent. We have experienced in Eastern Pondoland where intimidation was the propaganda put by Government members . The results of the bye-election show the percentage poll in Qaukeni region to be only about 35%. That signifies that about 65 per cent did not go to vote . Obviously the 65 per cent who did not go to vote were those people who felt they should rather not go to vote than to vote for a
tution Act. The opportunity is given to the people to elect whom they please , in so far as they have hopes and faith in that
39.
on a point of order , I wish to draw the attention of the hon. member that when they make statements they must be sure of their facts . The hon . the Minister of Education has no criminal record , nor was he accused of embezzling any trust moneys . He was merely struck off the roll because of not keeping proper books of account. Now the hon. member should withdraw the words
somebody to represent their wishes in this House. And , Mr. Chairman , at the moment the people are beginning to feel that a similar situation to that which took place in 1960 may result and that will be the direct responsibility of the chiefs in particular who are members of this Assembly . One of the things I said on one occasion at the Great Place at Qaukeni was to discourage the chiefs becoming members of this Assembly. I even said that politics was like mud and in the process of political exchange you are bound to be soiled somewhere somehow. I then put it to my chief that his position would be enhanced if he was not in this Assembly. (Interjections) It was before the Constitution had been accepted , just on the occasion a few weeks before the last Territorial Authority which accepted the Constitution. (Interjections) I regret to say that those remarks fell on deaf ears , and I can well see a state of affairs such as I predicted happening in these Territories . The hon. the Paramount Chief asks why I am on this side . As a matter of fact I never was on the other side . The policy for which I stand on this side of the House is the same policy that I advocated at the Great Place at Qaukeni in 1963 , and I am unable to turn my back on my words , Mr. Chairman. (Interjections) The hon. Paramount Chief says I whispered into his ear that I would die when he dies. I am the product of very faithful counsellors of his , Mr. Chairman , and when I said that to him I meant every word of it. And , mind you, Mr. Chairman , I was able to whisper that into his ear in the first place because he had indicated to the Paramount Chief of Western Pondo-
which I feel are improper imputation of misconduct on the hon . the Minister of Education . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , if I heard properly the hon . member did not say he misappropriated funds or anything of that sort .
MR . MDA:
MR . MDA: Mr. Chairman , there is a practice which I see for the first time in the Transkei . I refer to the practice whereby Ministers of State address professional servants . The ex-Minister of Education established this practice by addressing teachers' meetings and his successor in Ministry has taken it up after him . Mr. Chairman, I maintain that as political heads of departments they have no right to address professionals in the departments. If there should be occasion when the highest official of the department should speak to the servants of that department, then the secretary of the department should address such meetings . The result of this practice is that they are making the servants obviously politically inclined and when that happens , Mr. Chairman , then the administration of the country cannot properly run . If, for
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
MR . MDA: I am a foundation member of this Democratic Party in which the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni contended for premiership, so that I have on no occasion turned my back on my words. Incidentally , the hon. the Chief Minister concurs . (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I consider it unfortunate that the hon. the Minister of Education referred to incidents which had been voiced in this Chamber in the past two or three sessions of this Assembly, and his excuse for reference to those subjects was that no reply had been forthcoming. Did you have any reply when you accused him of being unsuitable of being a Minister of the Government for having a criminal record?
instance , the party in the Opposition today were to be the Government of tomorrow.... THE MINISTER That will never be.
OF
AGRICULTURE :
MR . MDA: ....and knowing some of these servants to be so influenced by the TNIP , and obviously to support the TNIP , naturally such servants would never feel happy in the administration under the government of the Democratic Party , and the Democratic Party would always be suspicious of such servants not serving the administration faithfully . As I said earlier, this is the first of its kind to happen in the Transkei . I have never heard of it happening in the Republic . As a result, during the bye-elections some members of the profession who had been appointed as polling officers or presiding officers had to be discarded and that brings suspicion that they must have been so discarded because of their political allegiance , and they have been made politically involved because the head oftheir . department addressed them whilst he is a
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He has no criminal record. MR . MDA: What record has he? Nothing.
Chairman .
THE CHAIRMAN : So there is nothing the matter with that. Carry on .
land his support of the premiership. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : has no record .
Thank you , Mr.
He
MR . MDA: Would the hon . Minister answer the charge of misusing trust moneys?
political figure. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No. MR. MDA: And yet immediately he was elected to this House he was made Minister of Justice .
P/CHIEF Chairman .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman ,
B.
SIGCAU :
I second, Mr.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m.
40.
order. You are quibbling now.
Wednesday, 26th April , 1967 . WEDNESDAY, 26TH APRIL, 1967.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it would appear that there might be a feeling of injustice being done to people who have given notice of these motions if they are not given an opportunity to appear before the business committee . I would suggest that those affected by this regulation should be given an opportunity to appear before the committee and they may state their case if they dispute the application of this rule to the motion they have moved .
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , as chairman of the business committee I wish to draw the attention of members to rule 38 of Proclamation 309 of 1963. Rule 38 : " It shall be out of order to attempt to reconsider a specified question on which the Assembly has taken a decision during any previous session , except on a substantive motion to rescind that decision , made with the permission of the Chairman ." Now, as a consequence of this provision the following items are struck off the agenda: Notices of motion Items Nos . 3, 7 , 8 , 10 , 11 , 15 , 30 , 31. Is that clear? I also want to announce that any member who does not attend the sessions of this House will not be paid the sessional allowance . As treasurer I must
look
properly
after
the
THE CHAIRMAN : I think it is the duty of the business committee , it is not my business . I do not object to the business committee allowing the members to appear. 17 MR. RAJUILI: Then I think on motion 10 can I not be allowed to amend the motion? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is not the time for it.
MR . RAJUILI : I will be prepared to do so when the time comes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : It will be out of order. It will not appear.
accounts .
NO-CONFIDENCE . MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I understand section 38 well , I wonder if I can be given a chance therefore for motion 10 in particular for an amendment . In so far as No. 11 is concerned I do not think this motion is affected by this regulation as read to us . This matter under motion 11 has never been in front of this House before and if you allow me , Sir , I will amend Motion 10 to read as follows: " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability………..'
The debate was resumed.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to remind the hon . members that we have had a long discussion on this subject and I would like the members to be specific in their arguments . These interjections should be stopped . If the members go on with these interjections I shall be compelled to close the matter. MR . M.P. SOBAHLE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in support of the amendment moved by the hon . the Minister of Education that this House full confidence in the Government, I stand. First I want to analyse the points represented by the two parties . I learn that the Opposition party calls itself the Democratic Party . At the s ame time it calls itself a multi-racial party, in the language of the Progressives . Just putting aside the common definition of democracy (that democracy is government
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , that is out of order. MR . RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I do not know where I am out of order because I say that clause does not affect motion 11 and I think I am perfectly in order. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It does . THE CHAIRMAN : The business committee has discovered that it is out of order.
of the people by the people for the people) I will now give the educational definition . Democracy is government by men to the level of their ability of the aims for which they must work and fight. Now what are the aims of the Democratic Party for which we must fight? I suppose time and again the question has been asked in this Assembly , that they must tell the world outside what are the aims for which they must work. On the same breath I turn to the other side - the multi -racial policy , which aims at guaranteeing the rights of minorities by a rigid constitution . That has been exploded as a dream. The history of minorities , ever persecuted in spite of legal barriers , is proof of this . Professor Dr. Cowen, one time a Professor of Law at the University of Cape Town, now appointed adviser to the Basuto Government, who was asked to draw up an alternative to separate development was bound to admit (I am quoting his words
MR . RAJUILI: I thought the hon . the Chief Minister would point out where it is out of order because I say that motion 11 .... THE CHAIRMAN : I cannot allow any discussion . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I want to draw members ' attention to the Hansard for 1965 , page 227 to page 233 .
MR . RAJUILI : That reference there talks about University college and this motion does not speak about University college and I definitely feel as far as the regulation is concerned that I am not out of order. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is out of
41 .
daute have both learned what is called the principles of education . Now, what are the principles of education? Can anyone on the opposite side give me the principles of education? I pause for an answer. All right · the principles of education are fundamental rules or fundamental
now) : "Constitutions by themselves can make the way of a transgressor difficult. They can delay and determine the majority; they can prevent and tame the abuse of authority; but they cannot by themselves provide a healthy state and security. " So what the other side stands for is null and void . That is an authority now on politics , so we cannot listen to your policy and the present generation is not prepared to accept it .(Interjections)
truths which serve as a basis to reasoning; or they are general rules which serve as a basis to action. That is what a primary school teacher has learned and a graduate has also learned that-that you begin from the simple to the complex , from the known to the unknown . (Interjections) I was very successful teacher, and if I left this Chamber now I would be employed as a principal ог an inspector. (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. SOBAHLE : I am finished with you now and before I tackle the items raised by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition I will come to the major policy for which we stand the policy of separate or parallel development. To most South Africans (and I want it to be as clear to you as daylight) to most South Africans separate development is a political and a philosophical system aiming to ensure parallel development between White and Black, each according to its own characteristics , with the ultimate aim of separation in all spheres of lifebiologically, culturally , socially, economically, politically, etc. That is the definition of the policy for which we stand. Now I want the world to realise the differences between the two policies because on this side the fruits of this policy have been tabled before you ever since 1964 and a pertinent question has been asked in this House : How is your policy going to be achieved? And since the road to your policy is nebulous , how shall we get to the goal and what is the goal? Now coming to the remarks of the hon . the Leader of the Opposition . In his attack he mentioned the type of teacher we have nowadays in the Transkei - that the teacher we have is unqualified. I just want to lift the veil of ignorance from him now . If he has read the history of education in South Africa from 1652 to 1952 he will realise that South Africa in that time was exactly in the same position as the Transkei at the present time . They had no teachers and the only few teachers they had at the time were by importation . The first Superintendent-General of Education , Mr. Rose-Innes , on account of the shortage of quality teachers in the Cape Province of the Union of South Africa at
MR .
GUZANA:
Political
plums?
MR . SOBAHLE : Or , as I was saying, from the concrete to the abstract. Now what has a graduate learned about the principles of education? He has learned what is called the pedagogics of education . Among the psycological leaders in education you have Herbert and Pestalozzi . Now, remember the principles of education are merely general rules framed out of those educational theories . For example , we all know that when a child has to learn he must learn through play, but who formulated that theory - that a child has to learn through play? It was Rousseau . Now how does he express it? He says : " To learn to think one has to exercise senses , organs and limbs which are instruments of the intellect" . (Interjections) I know that this poison is being preached by the DP members to the field officers and many times we have been questioned about this, so that you can realise now that a graduate is far more versed in school work than an ordinary primary school teacher who has no degree, and it is an educational axiom that a graduate can immerse in a week what an ordinary student takes six weeks to learn and what a matriculant has learned in a year a graduate can immerse in three months , so there can never be any difficulty in the case of a graduate inspecting primary school work and no primary school teacher can give guidance to others in a primary school .
that time , was given leave to go overseas to recruit teachers , and to supplement the few he had he embarked on a pupil-teacher , system whereby a scholar at that time , who was called a pupil -teacher , could instruct up to Std. 6 level. At the same time he was employed as a teacher , 15 years old and earning a salary of R30 a year. So we are in no way therefore different from any emergent state in not having qualified teachers .
Guidance , honourable gentlemen, is an art and a process and it cannot just be entrusted to anybody . MR. RAJUILI : Do you accept separate education?
MR . SOBAHLE : I will not touch on the other points raised, like accommodation in schools and the wages of labourers and salaries as well. I just want to touch on the Sons of the Transkei which has been described as a mysterious body . It must be realised that the internal security of this state is not in the hands of the Transkei Government. It is still being held by the Republican Government. If the Sons of
MR. RAJUILI : That is an admission that you do not have qualified teachers . MR. SOBAHLE: Again, teachers who inspect primary schools must have taught in primary schools . Plato calls ignorance the greatest disease of the soul . It must be realised ( I just want to remove this idea from your minds) · it must be realised that a primary school teacher and a gra-
the Transkei are subversive in any way, disturbing the peace of the country , we
42.
and we must be prepared to accept its negative measures which confine people in their own territories and of using their creative energies within their own confines and of realising their political aspirations in their own communities . These negative measures are inherent in a process of education in a course which is never free from restraint, but we have to be very careful that the separate development policy is not going to use its positive measures as a veil of decency to camouflage its repressive measures . If that is ever said we may reject the policy.
have the security police to find out. That was just in passing . I just want to touch on a very delicate point mentioned by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he talked of promotions being political plums . I wish he had not said it. It is my contention that what he said was perhaps through ignorance . He does not know the surrounding the unnamed circumstances gentlemen he talked about. Anything that is said about that matter will only make it uncomfortable for most of us here . MR.
GUZANA: Let
us
have it
out.
MR SOBAHLE: But we know just as much as he knows . He went on to attack
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , indeed we have been listening to a lecturer trying to turn this Assembly into a classroom in a state of getting into the political arena of the affairs of the country. When the last speaker rose I thought then for the first time this side of the House shall have one whom we think can match
the Department by saying there is some form of leakage some where . I understand he is one of the first to realise that it... (Interjections) Where was the leakage? Coming to the statement about influx control in the Evening Post made by the hon . the Chief Minister , I think he is behind schedule. The late Dr. Hertzog in 1913 granted a partition of the Union of South Africa. I
us better than any on that side , even including the members of the Cabinet. (Laughter) Now he has tried to lecture to members on that side on principles of education and I will give him a little bit about the politics of the day. I want first of all to congratulate him for making a definition of the policy his Government follows · that it is practical theory which is impracticable . He used those words . I want to emphasize that he said it was a political theory that is impracticable to the realities of life . I want to congratulate him. He made mention of many
am quoting his words now. (Interjections) THE
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
please .
MR. SOBAHLE : He said : "Do not let us have the whole Union . Let us divide it. Let us give one share to the Natives and let them develop according to their nature." That was a man who was second in prestige to the late J.C. Smuts . Now let us listen to the words of the late General J.C. Smuts
things but did not include economic separation.
on the same issue . Speaking in the Savoy Hotel , London , in 1917 he said (now these are his words) : "A system is developing in South Africa which will have profound effects on the future of the African continent.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Were you listening , or were you asleep?
We have got into the habit of giving the Natives institutions which are parallel to ours and through this parallelism we
MR . RAJUILI: He has admitted on behalf of his party that the Transkei has no qualified teachers in its schools . He has also mentioned, on the question of inspectors , how erroneous the Department of Education in the Transkei has been in
have been able to solve problems which otherwise would have been insoluble . Day by day we are becoming convinced that it is useless to govern the Whites and the Natives under the same form of government. Let us give them their own institutions always on the basis of self-government." Let us pass now to the late Dr. Verwoerd .
trying to appoint inspectors who have never taught in primary schools before . He has tried to size greatness here and he says the late Dr. Hertzog is not as great a statesman as the late General Smuts .
Speaking in 1965 in Parliament, he said: "If the Opposition is correct that we are now dividing the country then I now have to choose between dividing it and thereby retaining control over the are as settled
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You were asleep when he spoke .
MR. RAJUILI : I won't get into that authority of trying to size the greatness of world statesmen . (Interjections )
by our White forefathers , or regarding the country as one governmental unit and thereby turning it into a multi-racial society under Black domination. I choose division." Let us now listen to what our Minister of
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
Bantu Administration and Development said in 1966. In his policy statement, Mr. Botha reaffirmed that the Government was un-
MR. RAJUILI : The actuary of the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa does not think so. He has made an attempt to size the greatness of the statesmen of South Africa and he said General Smuts was not
bending in its determination to carve South Africa into Black and White states . If separate development is carried to its necessary and logical conclusion then it is
called by God . He made reference to General Smuts on self- government. General Smuts did not speak about separate development . He talked about self-government. Those
just and we must support it whole-heartedly . Now that is emancipating the Bantu from all the shackles which have manacled him
43.
two things are different. Now I want to come back from showing that the principles of University education are far above the principles of that policy. They hardly understand what he is saying . (Interjections) The chief representative of the
policy of separate development if you say the influx control must be relaxed so that we can have a breathing space . There must be no consultations between the people who believe in one and the same thing to feel it should not be that . I pause on this point to show you that you do not know what you are about. (Laughter) We are aware
Government side , whom we are telling we have no confidence in , started by saying that we must be charged with a breach of faith . Those are his words .
that people cannot develop overnight. This Government is like the tadpoles trying to live on rocks and the tops of mountains instead of in muddy pools . You are a Government of unfulfilled promises . Where was that oil that was said to be oozing out of the Insizwa mountains? They said they would establish factories of marble at Port St. John's and mines of coal in Indwe and no one has seen anything of that . When this Government has accepted a public failure in placing people at the head of its departments , when they have now come out to demonstrate the impracticability of the policy of "apartheid" by trying to get less qualified people to head the departments , that is what they say · that for reasons of old age they have had a re - shuffle . Is the Department of Justice a place for old age? (Laughter) If they had had a chance of really doing the proper thing , if they were not in the shackles of separate development , the leader of the party would have sacked that man and looked for a better man , but the Government of the Transkei
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I wish you would learn to understand English better. I said I was judging you. I did not say you must be charged.
MR. RAJUILI: He said he was judging us. I want to come to that question of breach of faith . Sir, up to now we have not had that side tell us anything about their policy. Even their professor has been moving right up with Platos and what-not and he has hardly said anything about their policy except to tell us about its impracticability . Now I will tell him what it is · it is "apartheid" and I would like him to understand "apartheid" in its true perspective . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : A question: Do you agree with your leader when he says he does not believe in one man , one vote? MR. RAJUILI: This poison is a cousin policy to the United Party policy. This policy of separate development is characterised by the dominance of White " baasskap- ism" . This is the policy in which you pretend to believe when you really do not understand it. It has all the paraphernalia of human oppressions , denying human rights · unless he can agree to live in a little yard called Bantustan where no selfrespecting person will go except a Kaffir person who is willing to live in a Bantustania denying the labourer the right to sell his labour in a market of his own choice. (Interjections) It is denying a person the right to live except in a little "pondokkie" called Bantustan. It is creating an African community to be a perpetual pool of labour for a dominating White man . (Interjections )
has made the Department of Justice a place for old age pensioners . If they had accepted our policy they would have found efficient men to manage all the positions , instead of these political acrobatics as they have demonstrated . Now the hon . the Minister of Agriculture was talking about the Sons of the Transkei , and I think he is the senior of the Sons . (Laughter) His leader said , when he was referring to some incident in the Democratic Party , that silence means consent.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What do you say?
MR. RAJUILI : He wants to know what I say . We say there has been silence about the Sons of the Transkei , therefore their silence must mean consent .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You preach separation on Sunday and on Monday multi-racialism .
EDUCATION : OF MINISTER THE Consent to what? We have disowned them time and again .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
MR . RAJUILI : They have hardly succeeded any day in this House to show us the positive achievements of the policy of separate development. (Interjections) They were shouting a little while ago that independence is just before us and that the
MR . RAJUILI: I don't mind people heckling as long as I can hear so that I can bang them back. This is your policy and you must accept it. Now here is a Chief Minister of a Government that has accepted this policy of paraphernalia of human indignities, denying it and saying they must not wield a " kierie " above their heads . When you accept a policy of or separate development or bourliness or whatever you must accept it. (Interjections )
Democratic Party is making it impossible to achieve. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Who said so?
" apartheid" good neighcall it, you It is not the
MR . RAJUILI : Listen ! I am so happy that the hon. the Prime Minister in his
44 .
speech from the throne in no uncertain terms said that that is as far away as four generations to come . I am so happy because
language because they do not want it to be done through the English and Afrikaans medium . You can bluff the people of the Transkei in some of these things , but you
we have been trying to show them that and now they have got it. (Interjections)
cannot bluff the Republican Government about the truth of what you are . Much better than we know it, they know what hypocrites you are . (Laughter) They have done that because they felt they have accepted a system which is impracticable, which has been very well endorsed by the last speaker on the other side of the House . Lesotho is
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
MR. RAJUILI : The policy of separate development , I want to emphasize , will never succeed because the people sent back here have nothing to do · they cannot exist · and that is why they are trying to soften down and give us a new picture of separate development. None of them had said anything about factories in the Transkei today or possibilities of factories , as they were making a noise about a little while ago . It comes to my mind that the last speaker gave us two names . He said we
making great strides of development because it is not tied down to this system of government. Botswana is making great strides under the able leadership of Seretse . In fact it has a university already . What concept can you have of a state that has no higher education? When we wanted this Government to establish higher learning
were a Democratic Party and he gave us another name . May I tell him we are just one thing - a Democratic Party . Perhaps as Professor of History and the Principles of Education he did not understand the the difference between being a party and for what the party stands . We are a Democratic Party and stand for multi-racialism . Where are the fish industries ? They have been telling the people they want independence , now they are asking us what is with government under separate wrong
in the Transkei they said we must wait until the Ciskei comes of age when we will have Fort Hare . Now we realise that this is a state in which they have no say . We گره have heard about the personal gain by the six Ministers of the Transkei state . Who else is gaining anything from this Government as a result of its coming into being ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You
are .
development. They no more say they want independence . What a breach of faith! Sir,
MR . RAJUILI : The Minister of Education should be ashamed of that remark that a person of my dignity and standing should get a salary that is lower than that of my wife . (Laughter) Now to finish up a few the Transkei is not the only remarks
we have nearby here three emerging states · Boleswa (that is , Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland) . This Government has been trying to do an impossible thing - they are pushing the people of the Transkei to lag behind any people in these emerging states . You are pushing us even to be behind Swaziland. They are a multi-racial country and they present all candidates , and things are just emerging without being tied to a policy which you do not understand . The lecturer on the principles of education did not come to his true self to say whether you had separate education . If you have separateness in everything that concerns life , you must have it in education as well to show its application and practicability. Now he could not reply to that question and I want to tell him now what separate education is . It means education as we know it -the Bantu system of education . (Interjections) A Government that accepts a system of separate development cannot, if it is true to what it says , reject the cornerstone of separateness , and that is separate education . As a result, in the homelands you are going to have a Bantu system of education through the medium of mother tongue . You cannot deny that. And the eldest brother has committed an offence the benevolent father by rejecting that system of education . As a result you do not know what system of education is obtaining in the Transkei . What a breach
place in Southern Africa that has got chiefs . Lesotho has got chiefs and one of them is Prime Minister today, but he was elected . We have chiefs , and great chiefs , in Bechuanaland but they have adopted the system of development and progress throughout the world - a bicameral system of parliament. Swaziland has chiefs . The Transkei is the only place in the world where the political system is so unique . It does not exist anyweher else . If we would go to the people to elect properly and in the accepted principles of politics the members of this Assembly, none of the people on that side would ever come back. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please .
MR .
RAJUILI :
And
as I sit down I
would like to say .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are saying too much . MR. RAJUILI : I wish I could get someone to remove this " pappagaai " out of this House. I was about to say when they interrupted my thinking , that nowhere in the world has a system ... (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . You are making too much noise .
of faith with the people of the Transkei , because they would not like it to be known they have gone back to the Bantu system of education with the " fanagalo" Sesutho
MR. RAJUILI: Thank you , One speaker
45 .
was
trying
to
say
that multi-racialism
of the Opposition also stressed that in the Department of Roads and Works money is being used in buying tractors , thereby throwing people out of employment. When he made this statement in East London
could never exist anywhere . In America it obtains very well. Then you come across that great leader , Jomo Kenyatta ; you come to Banda; you come to Kaunda - all of them are great leaders .
some time ago I thought perhaps he was joking. He said graders are putting people out of employment . I then replied and made it clear that these graders were a necessity as people could not be made to toil hard and to work quickly . It now transpires that it was said in earnest and not in jest. The work done by a grader cannot be done by people. People cannot be expected to do such work as that done by a grader. I want to make it clear to him that the Transkei Government has to maintain 5,700 miles of road in the Transkei and if people had to replace these graders that amount of work could not be done . It would necessitate the employment of 450,000 labourers and then we would not have sufficient money to pay those people . The Leader of the Opposition himself said that labourers in the Department of Roads and Works should receive a third of the budget.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret that I have to speak after the last member who made such a noise that the House is now confused, nor were his points clear. He first says separate development is a slow poison for the destruction of the country. He knows very well that everything has been tried to bring up the standard of the African people and all those attempts have failed . For more than 300 years attempts have been made for the development of the African and now when something is offered for the development of the African it is dubbed as slow poison. In the second place he criticizes us for having accepted the policy of separate development when he has accepted it himself. He will not speak the truth and admit that he himself has accepted the policy of separate development as the only sane policy. We could call him and others hypocrites because they, in the first place , accepted this policy, but subsequently because of certain developments they rejected it. He also
MR. GUZANA: No , I said the Department of Roads and Works , Interior , Justice and Finance should receive one third between them . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I asy there would not be sufficient money. If 450,000 labourers were taken on that would mean it would cost the Department about R70 million . The House will therefore appreciate that what some of the members of this House say is impossible because we haven't the finances to meet them. (Interjections)
asked during his speech who, apart from the Ministers , have benefited from this policy. I wish to inform him that the whole Transkei sees the fruits of the labours of the Government . (Interjections) The hon. member and others will at the end of the month go back to their homes happy because of the good labours of this Government. Why then should he make the statement that none but the Ministers are benefitting? He further says that if elections were carried out properly nobody on this side of the House would return . I think he is thinking of irregularities , for example in the bye -elections where members were assaulted by members of the Opposition. (Interjections) I want to make it clear to the hon . member that we on this side
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER WORKS: The work on and the members of would not stand up to I said the true . I must ment of the since this
are representing the people because they are standing for multi-racialism. Ever since. this session started we have not had any explanation as to why the Government is
ROADS AND OF the roads is heavy the Assembly here it. The remark that
Bantu people are make it clear that country is in good Government took
lazy is not the Governhands . Ever over there
have never been discrepancies in financial matters . Labourers have been paid their wages and from time to time they have been increased . That should serve as an answer to the hon. member as to who , apart from
not enjoying the confidence of the people. I have been surprised that those people who profess to be elected representatives of the people should say unpleasant things . For instance , the attack by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition against the residents of this country , although he did not mention any names . We did not expect a representative of the people to speak like that . The
the Ministers , has received any benefits . The hon. the Leader of the Oppositi on also complained about the accommodation position at schools where sometimes twenty children are in one hut......
hon. the Leader of the Opposition also asked in his speech if the Government was under the control of this person . This raises the suspicion that possibly some pamphlets are being distributed requesting people to say certain things . It is surprising that those people who boast that they are the representatives of the electorate should
MR.
THE
GUZANA :
MINISTER
I
said
OF
82
children .
ROADS
AND
WORKS : ...thus making it impossible for any furniture to be put in . I should like the members of the Assembly to remember what the position of schools was before this Government came into power. People used to put up their own buildings , they
themselves attack the people whom they profess to represent. The hon . the Leader
46 .
employed their own teachers and it was not easy to obtain teachers . ( Interjections) One hon. member interjects that I should talk about present-day matters . I want to tell him that he has seen schools
do not say. The hon . Mr. Diko never said we do not want to live with the Europeans , but in this morning's paper I see that they say that Mr. Diko said we do not want to live with the Europeans .
put up by the Government . They are decent buildings....
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He did say so.
MR . RAJUILI : He wants you to build better schools for the country .
MR. SINABA: Anyway , I will leave that because he did not say so . We will live with the Europeans with equal rights and equal everything. Mr. Chairman , I notice that most of the efforts of the Government are really not felt by us who are keen to see that independence comes forthwith. Members of the Government have been able
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I want to tell the hon . member that according to the programme of the Department of Roads and Works , all the buildings they promised to put up have been put up . (Interjections ) In regard to the question of influx control which was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, we have made several endeavours and this matter is being considered by the Government .
to explain and put forward the policies of separate development, but we want to know who is to separate who and from whom . Separate development, we are told , is a policy that should be carried out by the Government but I would like to know
MR . RAJUILI : But you must just abide by that because it is your policy .
THE
MINISTER
OF
ROADS
who is to separate us from whom. Who must develop us and who is developing us now?
AND
WORKS : Who can do anything if the Republican Government does not allow them to go to these labour centres? We are making all attempts to obtain employment for all in the Transkei but we cannot force the employ the to Government Republican the Bantu . (Interjections) I want to tell
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yourselves . MR . SINABA: If we were developing ourselves would we have influx control? Because if the White man feels today that we can live alone separately , I feel that we should develop ourselves because it seems today that the White man has proposed separate development but he seems to be the same man who directs us towards it . In the town s we experience the hardships
Assembly that we do not pay attention to things that do not exist because if these things exist the hon . member knows what channels to use or how to place these matters before the proper persons . I can only say he is using his privilege to say anything here .
of our people and our ment is silent about it. to come back to the Government has made
MR . RAJUILI : Where are the black cars now? You are using pink and yellow ones now . THE
MINISTER
OF
ROADS
receive our people from the towns . When looking at it from my own view, when separate development was to be given to us , we should be in such power that we are employing the Whites , but what do we see today? Everything is done for us. The Europeans are sent from Pretoria to the
AND
WORKS: The cars are still there and they are in good condition . (Interjections)
The debate was adjourned .
Transkei . Their qualifications are reviewed by other White men. How is it then that you can contend we are separate when we are actually controlled from somewhere else ? When my party say they stand for independence we mean independence in
AFTERNOON SESSION.
The Assembly resumed
at 2.15 p.m.
The debate was resumed .
MR .
S.M.
SINABA:
Transkeian GovernWe are being urged Bantu stans but the no preparation to
ruling and governing and developing. The Government promised the Transkeian people that they will get moneys from the Republic for certain lines of development. They have told us that we have the Bantu Investment Corporation but one wonders where the
Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , I stand up to support those who say we have no confidence in the Government for many reasons , most of which have been stated by former speakers .
Bantu Investment Corporation gets all the money. The Bantu Investment Corporation has money and we have suspicion of this money. Where did it come from when we have no money? We would like to know where this money comes from and who it belongs to. Now we feel if the Bantu
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about those stated by your follower?
MR. SINABA: First of all I wish to refute the statement made by the Daily Dispatch about my colleague , Mr. Diko . It is most astonishing to find that even our daily papers have got their own way of distorting all that we say and even of adding what we
Investment Corporation is sincere we should be loaned this money without being asked to pay it back, and pay it back on interest. Then it will be realised we are being
47.
developed . The Transkei Government has been able to tell the people they have a deboning factory in Umtata, only to find it is an ordinary common butchery . (Laughter) The sum total of all this , Mr. Chairman , is that we have no faith in the Government. The reasons are perfectly clear because this is not a government of the people by the people. The hardships over the people at the present time are becoming harder and greater. When rehabilitation came into force we thought the Government would
ment under which we are ruled is not our Government . Our purpose in pointing out these things is to advise the Government to look thoroughly into these matters for very many people outside have faith in the Government but they can have no faith in a Government like this . Many people want to come back home but because the Government cannot hold forth anything tangible to these people they will not come . Now let me speak of the bye-elections . The bye-elections were conducted in a manner absolutely illegal and not according to the regulations . Elections are by secret ballot but what we have noted done by our Government in these elections are things that no Government should do . We would like efforts to be made that at the next elections the voters should not be intimidated . All these are the result of your efforts . Now let me come to the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . During the election when a
lead the people in the direction of their homes , but we understand that under the Government the Republican Government loaned money to the municipalities and it was stated that the money came from funds in Pretoria. It was from that fund that several beautiful buildings were put up . Why does our Government not appeal to the Republican Government for the loan of this money? If you cannot do that, where can you get help? Today the people in the reserves live in mud houses which are falling over but the Republican Government can take funds arising from our taxes in Pretoria and use it as loans for the municipalities . Why does the Government not ask for these loans from the Government to
voter gets to the ballot box it is not right to ask him which party he is voting for. The voter must be allowed to vote for whoever he wishes . If you had conducted the elections according to rule and order the People's Freedom Party candidate would have been elected . (Laughter) Ac-
improve the homes of the Bantu people in the reserves ? We are aware however that the Government gives according to our
cording to separate development, the policy of our Government, we hear much about it and that we must hasten slowly , and we are not told why. I do not know whether it means that we must hurry the Government or that we must get on with our government. I liken our Government to a station master who advises passengers to remain in the waiting-room and when the train comes that leads to independence he says : No , this is not the train; and when another train that leads to independence arrives the passengers are told: No , this is not your train . The illiterate people remain there for a long time until they are controlled by the influx control laws and then they refer to Proclamation R400 and they are eventually brought before the magistrate . And while the Transkei encourages these things the way ahead is still long, because all this is controlled
need , not according to our demands . We want them to give according to our demands . It is for that reason that I want independence . If we were totally independent we would not have all these complaints .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Where would you get the money? MR. SINABA: Under an independence policy all these laws which are partial would come to an end and the reason why we are complaining about influx control is... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . Give a chance to the interpreter. MR . SINABA: The hon . Minister has stated that we cannot change the influx control regulations and we agree that it is so because those are the laws enacted by other people and not by ourselves . It is for that reason we advocate independence
by the Europeans . We certainly want to live harmoniously with the European people but as far as the Government is concerned let us run our Own government. Wherever we are we always find a White man. Even in this Parliament it happens , although the Chairman is in control....
so that we can have our own laws , and such evil laws as R400 could be done away with . (Interjections) It is for that reason that we object. If you say where will we have
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had better withdraw those words .
independence , is that the reason why you refuse that we should have it? All these laws that differentiate must come to an
MR. SINABA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman . That is the truth, nevertheless . There is no independence . Why should the Transkei Government be under the control of Euro-
end . When shall we come to independence if things remain as they are? We answer all those questions that you do not know where we will have independence , which you refuse to allow us . The sum total is that we are requesting the Government to
peans ? (Interjections ) The sum total of what I have said is that we must not be governed by the Europeans . We would that the Government would conduct the affairs of the Transkei properly , but we are aware there is no truth in the Government . What-
ask for independence , because whatever you have tried you have not succeeded in . The hon . Minister is tired and he will never administer and control because the Govern-
ever is taking place we are aware of. We ' have no faith in the Government . 48 .
Government would not have been drawn up by the White people . For very many years the Government has always ruled and
P/CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I very much regret that I should go over what has been said already . First let me pay tribute to our hon . Paramount Chief Poto , who stood for the truth long before there was any Parliament and he still stands for it. When he realised that among the children of his forefathers there was no truth he decided to stand
governed the Black people , only the Black people are tough and they will not be easily destroyed. That is the reason why we ought to have our own government multi-racially and not the Europeans who have been sent to us by the Republican Government. I will plead with you in this regard . The suggestion has been made that we have an upper house of chiefs . Some tribes have no chiefs , others have chiefs . Think of this - that in this House I have sub-chiefs who listen to people insulting and swearing at me . What do those chiefs think? It is not according to the practice of the Bantu people that if Paramount Chief Matanzima ssays anything he should be answered by a commoner . That is not according to Bantu custom. I would' like you to take note of this because it is a very important point. The Transkei Government is a very cruel Government. (Laughter) Now there used to be women here who made their living by cooking here and since this Government has come into power, where are those women? They were of use to the members of this Parliament during an interval when they needed food . Think of the women who make a living with difficulty in a location being fined R40 merely because they sold a bottle of cool drink. It was Chief Ngangelizwe who was responsible for the naming of this location . What would he think of this ? This vwas a
aside , and he decided that he should make the hon. Mr. Guzana the Leader of the Opposition . The Government that we have is a Government in which we have no faith. When this Government came into existence in the Transkei then hatred amongst our people also came into being. Members of one family hated one another and chiefs hated one the other . We were told we were going to live according to our own custom but we do not see the carrying out of those customs today . Even though I am the Paramount Chief of Tembuland , if I give orders to my sub-chiefs they do not carry them out. Why is that so, when we are told to govern ourselves according to our customs? The reason is that we are living not according to our customs . When self-government came to the Transkei we , among the Tembu tribes , asked that our ways and customs be put right, but today there is nothing that goes according to practice and common customs because the people were not given the when they were given this opportunity when Government to do things according to their customs and practice . I have my own government in the Transkei - a government that I
dismounting place of Ngangelizwe and he allowed his people to go and settle there because that is where he used to outspan his team when he came to this town from
love to sing praises to , the government which recently wanted rehabilitation , but now has gone round saying "No rehabilitation" . Now we wonder just where it is that we differ in this matter of rehabilitation . The Government should not turn its back on the things it has promised . I do not know whether this Government has come to change our ways of living so that the tail becomes the head . As far as I know, wherever there is a paramount chief, no matter who it is , the Chief Minister or a Minister , he first must start with the chief and get his permission . The hon . members of the Government side have been moving amongst our people without once making reference to the chief in that area, and what happened? After you had moved about people are killing one another in Mqanduli area . I do not know in which areas it is you have been moving around · in all the areas , Baca , Sesutho , Pondomisi here in Tembuland I am the chief. I left the children to move in and out among my people and like a royal bull of the area then I came out. (Laughter) After they had talked to the people I walked out and I said what I wanted to say . What was the outcome after they had spoken to my people? By 33,000 to 9,000 it was proved that my people did not want this Government because this Government is not founded on the true foundation of a government. The White people are very clever . They knew just how to make the people kill themselves and let their own people destroy them . If that were not so the constitution of this
his home . He was trying to make efforts to help the poor , not to help the rich . Now you tell the people in the location you will give them title deeds , but where will they get the money to build these wonderful houses? We members of this Assembly and teachers have had their salaries raised , but have the people in the location had their wages raised? Members of the Government , please take note . Our people who lived in the East London location were taken out when the Mdantsane location was erected and what has the Government done to protect these people ? Those children have heritages in the Transkei but today those rights have been taken away from them . I am a prophet. Don't think I ought to be of a particular colour to be a prophet. I would remind you that at one time I spoke
·
of a pig-sty and I said we had put up a pig-sty for ourselves. Is that not true today? If you go just beyond here you will find many young people looking for work who have been turned out of work centres , and yet you tell them you have work for them . Today, if people go to work centres they must sign a contract and I was actually asked for passport in Johannesburg when I went there . I thank you for having been patient and listening to me , as you have done . I thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and ask him to continue holding on to his policy . There is an hon . leader
49 .
notes .
of a new party and as this leader was addressing the people he said that I said I wanted independence for the people of the Transkei . To explain well what I mean I would say that a pig-sty has no entrance to it. The young pig is just thrown over the wall into it . I wanted some thing like a cattle kraal where there is an entrance into the kraal. At one time I went to Cape Town and Johannesburg and after I had bought a bottle I went outside to drink it. Where is freedom in all this ? What I want is that I should be free in the Transkei and
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on, hon. mem-
ber. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I also wish to warn the chiefs about remarks made on public platforms which are tantamount to inciting the public . In such cases the law will take its own course . I refer to a remark which is alleged to have been made by the hon. member , Mr. Z.L. Majija , at Engcobo , that the hon . the Chief Minister had invited all the chiefs and headmen to
wherever I go . I do not know how you have come here , hon . member. What member of the Government side has been a member of the TNIP and then a member of another side ? I appeal to the Government · let us
a meeting at Umtata and he told the public that Paramount Chief Jonguhlanga would not attend that meeting because he was a member of the Democratic Party , and that those chiefs who would attend that meeting should be watched carefully by the party . Are we living in a reign of terror? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition paid compliments to the officers who organised the recent bye-elections and who manned the polling stations . I wish to associate myself with those remarks . The officials concerned
govern the people according as the people make demands . I am quite sure that if the people had to elect all the members , the members of the Government would not be returned. I appeal to the chiefs not to vote because we have not come here by election , but only because we are chiefs . OPPOSITION MEMBERS:
Hear ,
are indeed to be complimented for the stand they took because owing to the inclemency of the weather , polling would have been interfered with if these officers had not
hear.
OF JUSTICE : Mr. THE MINISTER Chairman and hon. members , I wish first of all to commend the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for his forward-looking approach in his criticism on educational matters . These matters are , however , attended to Government. His criticism may by the perhaps be that we are not moving fast
come to the rescue . I feel that a special word of thanks should be sent to the police . I now come to the tendered ballot papers . It is quite possible that people's names did not appear in the voters ' roll and yet their reference books showed that they had been registered . It is possible that this may be due to an error by the clerks . It is also possible that even though a
enough. It is a pity that he visited a dingy little classroom which must be a relic of the past, and failed to visit the up-to-date classrooms that we are putting up . I am very much concerned about the criminally minded elements in his party. This House is very keen to know whether Messrs . still remain Nkosiyane Nogcantsi and
member was registered , he had since committed a criminal offence and thus his name was ruled off the list. MR. GUZANA: Considering the number of these tendered ballot papers , this ex-
members of your party . What line is your party taking towards those who were accomplices , but who , in order to save their own skins , turned State witnesses? Was the hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase aware of this plot already during the discussion on the paramountcy of Chief K.D. Matanzima , for now and again he said there would be bloodshed in that affair? By the way , the presiding Judge said his evidence was most unsatsfactory . One is also concerned about the ex-prisoners of criminal offences in your party . I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon . member for Qaukeni , Mr. C.S. Mda, about the denunciation of the obscene language used on public platforms . During the bye-elections one heard of obscene remarks made on a public platform, remarks which were sufficient to
planation cannot really explain away the large numbers of ballot papers which were there . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We in the Government do not know how many there were , because the counterfoils are sealed until after a period of six months . MR . GUZANA: I am speaking from having seen the sheaf of tendered ballot papers which fell out of every ballot box opened .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Whatever the case may be it will be looked into . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition also referred to a sum of money brought back home by people who go out to the labour centres , quoting from a statement made by the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa and he reduced that to
make the very Devil blush .
MR. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think the hon . member should not read us a speech , but rather address us from notes . We can see the speech fully and completely written out on a piece of
about R56 per person . It is very difficult to arrive at a figure like that . The figure given by the Prime Minister was a mere estimate and a liberal estimate at that . Labourers are not forced to save their
paper. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are
50 .
wages . Some squander all their money in labour centres SO we cannot stake very
to their own free will.
much on this figure .
MR. GUZANA: Is that an indictment of your victory in Qaukeni?
MR. GUZANA: You concede it was a liberal estimate . In other words it took into
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No.
account those who squandered their money also. THE MINISTER do not think so .
MR. GUZANA: Don't say No. Just admit it.
OF JUSTICE : No , I
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Qaukeni is a stronghold of this party and had my friend not deserted the paramount chief after whispering into his ear that he would die when the paramount chief did , he should have been on this side . (Interjections) I do appeal to the House that we must go out as teachers and educate public opinion. I had the good fortune to visit both Nyandeni , with the permission of the paramount chief, and the Dalindyebo region ...
MR . GUZANA : Assuming that the original figure was a liberal one , the estimate I gave of R56 is a liberal one too.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : During the bye-elections I could not help but feel for my hon. friend from Qaukeni . He likes very much to cite that well-known definition of the late President Abraham Lincoln that democracy is government of the people for the people by the people . I think at present we are still very far from that stage and I do not think any party should boast that it voices the views of the people . The great bulk of our people are still illiterate and when they go to the ballot box there are all sorts of interferences along the way. The party system is really a school that those elected members of this Assembly should expound first of all their policy and secondly....(Interjections ) I am sorry the hon . member Rev. B.S. Rajuili has just come in. I knew him as a small boy and I knew all his eccentricities andhis physical failings . I know that at one time he was a mental patient. (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: Without the permission of the paramount chief. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I did the courtesy of writing him a letter. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He did not need permission . We are the Government. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What I discovered and what people told me wherever we went was that they had elected people to represent them in this Assembly and they have never seen them since , and yet those people claim to be expressing the views of the people . But they express their own views . Well , as long as we have this illiterate section we shall have a Legislative Assembly which does not represent the views of the people . I see my hon. friend , Mr. Sasa , (wearing the cobwebs well down on his cheeks) · he went to the members who attended my meeting and I was told by the people they had never seen him there before . The hon . member wanted to take control of my meeting when I gave them a chance of asking questions. It was the day for him to go and report back to the people, but I stopped him. He should call his own meeting if he wants to report back.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we would ask the hon . member to prove this and , if he is unable to prove it, to withdraw it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I withdraw , Mr. Chairman , but I want to say something more about him. MR. RAJUILI : I wish you would go on with your policy and leave personalities . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On one occasion a friend of his in Johannesburg asked him why he was a member of that party. He said : "I was banking on the popularity of Paramount Chief Victor Poto and I was quite sure he was going to succeed as the Chief Minister and then I
MR. GUZANA: Have you had an interview with the hon . Chief Gwadiso?
would get a Cabinet seat. " In other words , he is an opportunist. He is not very serious in your party . He is the sort of man who is
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Since when?
looking for posts . MR. GUZANA: Since after the election. I recommend him for a long and illuminating interview .
MR. RAJUILI : I would have applied for yours when you were sacked . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The franchise therefore is to allow each voter to exercise his own free will . The ballot is secret, but in these bye -elections knobkieries were wielded over the heads of
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon members , I stand up to associate myself with the vote of no confidence in the Government. I have been very much impressed by the remarks made by the last speaker on the other side , more especially when he
the people and they did not vote according
51.
praised our
leader
for
his
constructive
never dream of separating from the Europeans at any time and the Europeans will never dream of separating from the Africans at any time . Economically there is interdependence and we cannot get away from that, and it is only through that interdependence that we can build a real South Africa not a South Africa for the Europeans , not a South Africa for the Africans , but a South Africa for us all for the
criticism against the Department of Education. I will tell you why it is , Sir. We have a leader with a very high mental capacity. So much for that. Re the Nkosiyane/Nogcantsi question and other members of the party that where involved , I feel that has nothing to do with the Government party . It is for our party to decide . With regard to obscene language used by some members of our party, I think he must be making the greatest mistake of his life , because I have always known him to be the culprit. Again , our leader commended the officers during the elections for their keenness to go to the stations during inclement weather, but he never at any time commended them for their activities which took place inside the polling stations . Earlier this morning we had some quotations from Professor Cowen of the University of Cape Town. I think if Professor Cowen was anything he was an opponent, and an open opponent of " apartheid" . In fact he made propositions for a constitution based on democracy as an apartheid" . Quoting from alternative to
Coloureds , for the Indians , for the Chinese who live in this country . Why should we attach any importance to colour? Are your brains or your abilities determined by the pigmentation of your skin? What does it matter if the Prime Minister of South Africa is a Black man , if he has the ability? What does it matter if he is a Coloured? What matters are the capabilities of a man . What does it matter if we have a Chief Minister in the Transkei who is a European? Let us come to hard facts , hon. gentlemen . Coming down to the Constitution of the Transkei , now and again we have hammered , and you yourselves say it is unfair, that it is no democracy, and even under the " apartheid" system it is not acceptable that there should be people in this House who are not elected , no matter whether they be chiefs or kings . In fact , kings ought not to be here , they should be in an upper house . As a result of the failures of Bantustanism unemployment is becoming very rife . About a week ago I was in the registration office at
Professor Cowen, he says : "If ' apartheid ' could measure up to an ideal which some have cherished of fair territorial partition , with real autonomy for each territory and ." (Mark those full rights for each race ....' words " fair territorial partition with real autonomy for each territory and full rights ...."then ' apartheid' or for each race" ) Bantustan would be an ideal for South
Nqamakwe . In the district of Nqamakwe alone the figures are over 6,000 people looking for work. (Interjections) Many of the Transkeians are landless and because many of them are landless there is poverty , and once there is poverty in any place there is crime . You must expect juvenile delinquency to be at its highest in a few years . Social psychology will tell you that, and one would expect that if all our youth are involved in crime . In fact they have been pushed into crime by conditions which they themselves cannot help . At one time I once said in this House that it is a pity that practically all the Ministers have never been to the working centres . As a result they do not know, they have never experienced what our people out in the country are experiencing. They do not know what pass restrictions are , and of course most of them are chiefs .
Africa." (Interjections) "Apartheid" is the in fact, I would call it a stem of a tree rotten stem of a tree · of which you are the leaves or the branches , because the fundamental basis of " apartheid" is nothing more than se grega tion, segregation which is based on racial fear and prejudice . What fear is that fear of the European for the African races? It is the prejudice of the European races against the African races because the European has always maintained that he should have supreme domination over all other races in South Africa. In order to maintain this status quo there is separate development . It does not give you any chance to rule the countries or the partitions or the one-fifth or whatever it is of the country you are supposed to rule . You are just puppets that are set upon the Transkei in order to prevent the other Africans from ruling the Transkei . The object of a Bantustan is to keep the Africans in a sort of labour camp from which the European industries at any time shall be able to draw his labour. Why should there be job reservation for Whites? Why should there not be eqaul pay for equal work? Why should the Africans be refused full representation by their people in any statutory bodies ? If given all these opportunities then the African would be in a free state to determine his destiny . It is for that reason that your Government is naturally handicapped to achieve anything for the benefit of the Africans . There
All they cherish is the bribery fees , that is all , and they will never help these people to get work . All they know is to demand something from the people despite the fact that they are being paid high wages by the Government and they are e ven getting higher and higher . Mr. Chairman, we on this side of the House will never have confidence in a Government that is based upon the rotten foundations of " apartheid" because , as I have already said , "apartheid" is unjust, unfair, unchristian and completely atheistic . Thank you , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : I will now give a chance to one member of the Government
are forces that tend to integrate people and you cannot run away from that fact. There
side and tomorrow morning to the Leader of
is inter-dependence of races so you should
the Opposition to reply. 52.
accusation does not trust the Government . Our Transkei an electorate in 1963 agreed to accept this Government even on party political lines under the constituted regulations of this Parliament, and all that is allowed here, including the debates , are conducted under that constituted law. This has brought a great change in the Transkei because the people are free today to express their opinion . I am often surprised that people say that even in the installation of chiefs political statements are made . Sure enough , even at burials political statements are often made because we have accepted party political division. True enough, when a chief is installed he ought to be informed of political trends from the very start so that the chief should know which of these two parties he ought to support. If we do not express political views , how will the people know how to conduct themselves and how to vote for the candidates they want, because this present Government is not like the previous two Governments of the Bantu people of the Transkei. If there be any individual who objects to political views being expressed among the people then that individual has no interest in the building up of the Transkei politically . It is for that reason that we shall not be satisfied with the election of members to this House because the truth is often concealed from the people . The present speaker is the chief Sophonia Moshesh, the chief of his own tribe . I am expressing what I feel my people ought to be told . If there be any chiefs who do not feel that way, then that is all right . Again:, much has been said about roads and works . Referring to the roads I think we all agree that everyone uses the roads and it is
MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman , this is taking us by surprise in view of the arrangement we made . We would like that at least you allow one speaker from each side tomorrow morning and then the Leader of the Opposition to reply.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, I am sorry I cannot grant you that because much has already been said. CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment moved by the Acting Chief Minister to the motion , to the effect that the people have confidence in our Government. Ever since the existence of this Government this motion has been debated in the House . It has been permitted for the vote of no confidence to take place because the Government is liberal enough to want to hear whoever opposes the views and actions of the Government, and since the debate on the no confidence motion started , both sides have expressed their views . Indeed , I believe everybody has felt that this Government has the confidence of the people . Some have said that the people have no confidence in the Government but we on the Government side do not believe that that is so , for indeed ever since the coming into life of this Government, the Government has done much for the people of the Transkei . I am sure we were aware that we have been given six portfolios in this Government and it would have been right for the Opposition to have looked into all the departments of this Government but in their noconfidence motion I did not find that they referred to all the departments . They have belaboured the Education Department as much as possible because they are aware , and we agree , that education is a most important Government department. They have admitted the fact that very many teachers are being employed. It is the way in which these teachers are employed that makes them complain . That does not mean that education is not making progress in the Transkei . We are not all conversant with educational matters in this House , but in our areas we have not found any people
expected that the road will be constantly under repair . I am chief of Emboland, a mountainous area where erosion is very bad and although we are two parties we know what the roads are . We use the roads constantly. It is not easy for the road machinery to be accessible for those parts of the road which are destroyed . Despite all those difficulties the Government takes steps to see that the machinery is conveyed to those areas to keep the roads in order .
who have expressed no confidence in the Government. Further, Mr. Chairman, reference was made about influx control , although the law affecting influx of labour is a law of the Republican Government. I believe there is not a single member in this House who would like outsiders to walk in and out of their houses at leisure , and
MR.. GUZANA: Why not get your people employed to work there? CHIEF MOSHESH : I am not here just now to speak for my individual tribe . I am speaking for the whole Transkei , and you included . (Laughter)
that is what the Republican Government has done , and we all know it is so . On that point our Transkei Government has stated that negotiations are going on between the Republican Government and the Transkei Government on influx control in exactly the same manner as any other Government has a right to negotiate with the South African Government on this subject. If there is any motion to the effect that this Government
MR . GUZANA: But you about your own area.
were talking
CHIEF MOSHESH : This is not a regionnal authority . This is a Parliament . Unfortunately the interruption has made me forgert what I was saying . (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: My apologies .
is not working in the interests of the people it will be that the person who makes the
CHIEF MOSHESH : As I mentioned, the
53.
road machinery is already at work in Emboland. I do not feel that I can support the no-confidence motion for any reason . Even though the roads have been so bad they are
be made , if the motion is no longer there . I had understood the Chair to say when we come to the motions that it will then be in order to bring in that amendment and I understood that the motion would stand on
being repaired. Every year our Chief Minister places before this House a full statement of the money that has been paid into Transkei Government funds by the Republican Government and how he has apportioned the funds to the different departments of the Transkei . I find no reason whatsoever why the Opposition says the people have no confidence in the Transkei Government . Indeed , as I have mentioned , we do not expect that all will be well overnight . We shall gradually achieve the things we are looking forward to achieving . I think you are aware that 1967 is possibly the last lap of this Government. In other words , our first lap was covered under the Transkei Government, not under the T.T A. or the Bunga. When we started work under this Government none of us had been members of Parliament before . Even our educated men merely followed the rules and regulations of Parliament . I trust that the Opposition that will come into force after this opposition party will know better what to say .
the order paper until we come to it, so that a chance should be given for amendments . How and when shall that privilege which I shall enjoy , to amend the motion , come in? THE
CHIEF
Next year.
MINISTER :
MR. RAJUILI : So the minutes cannot be correct there fore . I hear the hon . the Chief Minister say "next year" . Why next. year? This is a privilege we should enjoy . The motion should have remained on the order paper . THE CHAIRMAN : To save time , hon . member, I think you should approach the business committee , MR. RAJUILI : Thank you , Sir , I hope the business committee will not be above the rights and privileges of this House . As you have advised me , Sir , I can move the adoption of the minutes with that proviso .
MR .. MPONDO: That will be your party .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
CHIEF MOSHESH : This particular Opposition party has lost sight of the work they were elected to do . Indeed, we should thank you because what you have achieved was merely to make us believe you were human beings , but we have found you are not human beings but just clothes. (Laughter) We as chiefs today are members of a legislative assembly, not mere advisers in the Bunga . I need not be elected. I was born a chief and I am a chief. (Interjec-
ANNOUNCEMENTS
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , I wish to announce that the hon . the Minister of Finance will deliver the budget aftemoon.
speech
at
2 15 this
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS .
tions)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. R334 of 1963 , I lay upon the table the Public Service Commission's Annual Report for 1966 .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
Mr. Chairman , I CHIEF MOSHESH : merely stand to support the amendment moved by the Government side , not the no- confidence motion. Leave the Opposition as they are . They will be no better .
NO CONFIDENCE . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the House will recall that yesterday I made a ruling that a chance would be given today to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to reply to the debate . After a private talk with the Whips of the Governing party and the Opposition, I have decided to change my decision and to allow one member from each side and after that the Leader of the Opposition will reply to the debate .
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 27th April, 1967 . THURSDAY , 27TH APRIL, 1967. The Assembly resumed at 11 am . Prayers were read .
The debate was resumed . MR . B.S.. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , under paragraph 17 (i) Announcements by the Chief Minister · it
MR . O..O.. MPONDO:
Mr. Chairman and
been removed from the order paper and it looks therefore as if the removal will make
hon. members , I was very thankful indeed that the Chairman decided to change his mind and give us this opportunity to speak this morning. It is useless pretending that this side of the House was not shocked
it very difficult, when the time promised to the speaker comes that an amendment can
when he dropped this bombshell yesterday . Really, it came so unexpectedly . We are
would appear that the se motions about which an announcement was made have already
54.
to carry on the stinking policy of separate
therefore very grateful . Mr. Chairman , this side of the House can never have confidence in this so-called Transkei Government because it is a dummy institution designed to bamboozle the African people and the world that something was being done for the African, when in reality the object of the creation of this dummy institution was to make sure that the Black man in the southern
development in the Transkei . The policy which is supported by ་ the Matanzima Government has been the cause of all the indignitiestrand miseries suffered by the Black man in this country . Under influx control the African is hunted down like wild animals and driven out of the labour centres of the འ Republic : When they get to the Transkei , what does the Matanzima Government do to
part of Africa would remain a sub-human , because the White disciples of " apartheid ” believe the Black man to be an inferior
help these poor people? Nothing except unfulfilled promises . During the present all-white Parliament of the Republic it was decided that out of every hundred , five African people should be removed from the Westem Cape. This has to be done every year. This is separate development. I listened very carefully during the last two days of the discussion on the no- confidence motion, as each member of the Government
species. The so- called Transkei Government is now in its fourth year of its struggling existence . Can the Government tell the world what it has achieved for the benefit of the African? What has it done for the ordinary man in the street? Thousands , tens of thousands of African people are roaming about the Transkei without work, while the members of this supposed Government are content with filling up their bellies at the expense of the poor, hungry, voiceless and defenceless African. Every year in the all-white Parliament of the
side stood up to speak. What struck me was themarked deterioration in the standard of the discussion on their part. In the hon . member, Mr. Sobahle , whom I very much respected on account of his high academic expected something we qualifications , better, but he was really disappointing . In what I consider to be his first and last
Republic of South Africa, where the nume rically superior citizens of the country have no voice , repressive and op gessive laws are passed against the voiceless Africans for the comfort and security of the White man, while the Black hirelings ofthe of the, White oppressor are shouting at the tops of their voices in the Transkei , trying to tell the world that all is well with the Black man in South Africa. Hon . members of the House , how can anyone have confidence in a Government composed of people who are prepared to fight against their own consciences? In their heart of hearts s . they know that what they are doing is wrong because the overwhelming majority of people in this country are against it, but for the sake of earning their daily bread they must fight against their consciences . At the end of the second sitting of this Assembly in 1964 the African people breathed a sigh of relief in the belief that we had ultimately subdued the dragon that had been let loose by the White oppressor , with the object of mental enslavement of our children . The dragon in question is Bantu Education , but
speech in this House, in very good English he said a lot of nonsense . (Laughter) As one of the most highly qualified academically amongst the African people, a University I wonder if the hon . Mr. Sobahle supports the Separate Universities Act ? He must bear in mind these are products of the policy he supports · " apartheid" or separate development as they call it today. Under the outrageous policy of separate development we have inherited this stinking Bantu Education Act and Separate Universities Act. Under this Separate Universities Act Africans ar and other non-white students must be separated from their White fellow students lest their presence contaminates them. Every right-thinking person in this country and the world condemns this policy s as, to quote the words of thi hon. Mr. abominable , J. Hamilton Russell , " morally intellectually grotesque spiritually and Any right-thinking person indefensible. can never have confidence in a Government
what is the position today? The Black hirelings of the White oppressor have revived the dragon, and its poison fangs are still playing havoc with our children . Even here , hon . members , these people are still fighting against their consciences because we were seeing eye to eye when we decided to destroy the dragon , but a hired servant must please his master. He has no other altemative . Hon . members , White South Africa is a mentally sick country . During the last eighteen years we have witnessed a terrible and tragic erosion of human rights and liberties in this country . The "apartheid" Government of South Africa, which believes in the inherent inferiority of those with a non-white skin and seeks to separate the White from the Black citizens of this country in every sphere of human association enlisted the aid of the hon . Chief K.D. Matanzima and his henchmen
which supports a policy which stinks in the nostrils of the people of the world . That is why we say this side of the House , as well as the people of South Africa and the world, have no confidence in this Transkei Government. Mr. Chairman and hon . members , there is much that is not right with this Government. Indeed , if the Republican Government does not find some other way, much will happen in the Transkei . We notice that the Republican Government encourages Hitlerism in the Transkei . While Proclamation R400 is still dangling above the heads of the people there can be no freedom in the Transkei . For all time , while the hon . the Chief Minister instructs headmen and chiefs not to allow people's representatives to hold meetings , nothing will bee right ht in in the Transkei . At the TNIP conference the hon. Minister made this public announcement quite plainly . We
55.
Jerusalem . They first sat down and thought thoroughly about this separate development. Then they started looking round to see how far they had gone educationally. How many people can fill the posts occupied by the Whites? Now they have first considered how to establish schools, where they can educate the former educators. Even the
appeal to those who have the power to control the chief Minister for we believe he is overstepping his rights . Whilst the people are not allowed to express their opinions; whilst they are suppressed so that. they cannot express their opinions, there will be much unpleasantne We wish the Repub-
lican Government to note that the very constitution which is the basis of the existence of this Parliament stinks in the nostrils of
Whites were pleased when they handed over because it was as if they were handing over to their sons . That is the secret of why there was no bloodshed when they handed over. When a European leaves a post and an African takes over it is just as if it is a promotion , whereas on the other side
the people . It should be clear to the Republican Government that until the constitution is reconsidered then the whole world will feel there is something stinking in the country. With those words, Mr. Chaimman, we maintain that that side of the House is a
it appears as if the people get seats by losing their cloaks . If one treads on a dead snake's home one will get hurt and be taken to hospital. If we get another Government we will really find ourselves in trouble . We shall build the Transkei . Go if you want to go and we shall issue you with permits .
group of people forming a Government in which the people have no confidence. CHIEF L. MATIWANE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, it would appear that the sins of the previous Goverments are now being brought forward. If we were in a court of law with this motion of no confidence , it would have been abolished. It appears
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , I will
it is no longer a motion of no confidence . This motion is copied from the White Government and it was brought to this Parliament. (Interjections)
now ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to reply .
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, in as much as the hon. the Minister of Education thought he would chastise back, I now stand up to re-chastise the Government .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF MATIWANE: It is surprising that whilst a child is still a toddler that child is expected to answer for the sins of his fathers . These complaints which are raised here are not new, but old . From the times of Wellington the Republican Government has had its own constitution known as the South Africa Act. The Transkei also has its own constitution and it is still in its early stages . This constitution is
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You will be the last to chastise.
MR. GUZANA: Yes , and there will be no oil to be poured on the sores . It is significant that the Government, instead of telling us what it is doing, trying to defend itself on the charges which were levelled against it by the Opposition ....
shouldering all the grudges , complaints , etc. that the people have . These complaints remind me of an incident when a lamb met a fox near the river. The lamb
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not necessary for us to tell the Opposition .
said to the fox: "I am not yet born" ; and the fox said: " It does not matter how young you are there is no love lost between
MR. GUZANA: I thought the hon. the Chief Minister was a spent force like the dead lion that still claws at people, (Laughter) and that he would continue to remain silent until he has recuperated sufficiently to stand up to the attacks . The hon . the Minister of Education indicated that my figures relating to the subsidy for the building of schools were wrong. He will remember that at the time I spoke I did indicate that I was subject to correction, but even with the correction that he made
us." I heard the Opposition quoting Botswana, Basutoland , etc. They were quoting countries that are far away from us and yet we are surrounded by our friends , the Republican Govemment . We would like to know what wrong we have done from the date that we started this Parliament, and not what happened prior to that. There is по Government within the bounds of the Republican Government which is similar to the Government of the Transkei . For
we still hold that the money is not adequate to put up a classroom that is big enough to take up the students . My submission is that if a classroom is to be adequately built an amount of at least R3,000 should be set aside for a classroom and we have heard him say that the Department of Education is indeed getting one-third of the finances of this Government allotted to that Department. Now I have worked out the
three hundred years we have been hunting along the sea- shore and finding nothing. It is only recently that we have achieved something . Even visitors from overseas and other countries , when they come to the Transkei they leave the Transkei with good Fortunately our Govemment has faith . fallen into good hands because when this was handed over to these men they were the right men who were not keen to get right to the top where the Europeans are holding the reins. It got into the hands of the people who were not in a hurry to get to the new
funds made available to this Department, including the money which will be used by the Department of Roads and Works in putting up schools and I find that it was just a
56.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are attacking the Commission now, not the Education Department.get
little over R5 million . The trouble is that the hon . the Minister of Education speaks to this House about estimates but when we look over the past three years we find that though they have estimated for a certain amount of expenditure , very little of that money is actually used . In other words , financial help or assistance is more promised than is actually given and that does not solve the accommodation problem in our schools . That does not improve the lot of the children who go to these schools . This does not provide the surroundings suitable and encouraging to education as it should be . The hon . the Minister of Education disputed the fact that there is a wrangle in an Afrikaans class being held at the moment .
MR . GUZANA: " Difficulties which the applicant had had with the authorities at the University College of Fort Hare and THE CHIEF MINISTER : Stick to the Department of Education and not the Public Service Commission . MR. GUZANA: I am attacking the Government now. I say that this House has no confidence in the Government and the Public Service Commission is a body to which there have been political appointments. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a wild allegation. MR . GUZANA: " and the then current banning order against him were apparently also factors influencing the Department's attitude towards his candidature Suddenly the difficulties that this man had with the University College of Fort Hare have disappeared and the Government has found it right and proper to give him an appointment as Circuit Inspector . But the matter does not end there . The post of professional assistant in the head office of the Department of Education is now held by a tempo-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I did not dispute that . I disputed the fact that the Afrikaans master was an African .
MR . GUZANA: ...and he went on to dispute the fact that the teacher of these Afrikaans classes was an African . May I say that his denial of this fact is indeed an indictment of my source of information , and this is indeed an indictment of the personnel working in his Department. How are you going to deal with a department that is a stranger from the truth? I am merely dealing with some of the observations of
rary incumbent which gives us the impression that that post is still being held open for this favourite of the Government .
the Goverment on my points raised during my motion of no confidence . Members of the Government had constantly suggested that my attack on the administration relating to a particular individual was because I did not seek this particular individual to be advanced, and it has been suggested that I am not in full possession of the facts , that a revelation of all the facts would cause embarrassment to both sides of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no such post. You are behind the times . MR . GUZANA : Listen ! The Commission accordingly recommended his appointment to the vacant post of professional assistant . This is the report of the TransService Commission .. . . . kei Public EDUCATION: The MINISTER OF THE . there longer no is post MR. GUZANA: ...for 1966. Unless you want to indict this report I shall pin you down to it. THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is 1967 , not 1966 .
House . It is no use sitting on an embarrassing situation and hoping you will tide over like that . The facts have got to be laid before this House and I challenged the speaker on that point and he kept silent . It is being disputed that this man has been appointed to a post because it is a political reward for him .
MR. GUZANA: This is the beginning of 1967 , and therefore we submit that the beneficiary of these promotions is a political associate who who is being rewarded politically .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What has he done?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a wild allegation . How do you know that?
MR . GUZANA: The hon . the Chief Minister asked what he has done . Have you ever told us what he has done for you? 尊
MR . GUZANA: I pass on to the hon . the Minister of Roads and Works who denied that he had said that the Africans are averse to work . The Daily Dispatch reported thus : " Further, he (Mr. Guzana) should know how averse his people are to hard work. " Do you suggest that that is a distortion of what he said? (Interjections) I will take his original , signed by A.M. Mabandla , in which the same statement is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He is a public servant. He has done nothing. MR. GUZANA: He seems to be a public servant to whom this Government is obliged . I refer to the annual report of the Transkei Public Service Commission , page 7 , when the post of professional assistant fell vacant at head office in the Department of Education and what did the Public Service Com-
repeated , or rather this same statement is found in his original statement which he he gave to the paper.
mission have to say on the appointment of this gentleman to the post of professional assistant? They state among other things .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: How did you get hold of it?
57.
MR . GUZANA: It is not how I got hold of it · it is whether it is the truth of the
hope to improve you . (Laughter) When a man is beyond redemption only God has the final answer and sends him to Hell . (Laughter) That is all that is awaiting you .
matter . I quote from his original : " Further, he should know how averse his people are to hard labour and so he had brought in machinery because his people are lazy to work." And he distorts the statement 1 made out of proportion :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come across here . We will make you Minister of Roads because you will never form a Government .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is the twentieth century . Our people are not made for road work .
MR . GUZANA: The Government has constantly flown the flag of Communism over the stronghold of democracy and we have constantly told them we are not Communists , and they have not been able to prove any Communist tendencies in the Democratic Party .
MR. GUZANA: That is why on relief work you sent women to work on the roads for 25 cents a day . The hon . the Minister of Roads and Works suggests that the 450,000 people I suggest could be used over the whole of the Transkei would mean a phenomenal increase in wages . Can he reply to this question : How many tractors or graders are there in his Department and how many tens of thousands of rand, multiplied by the number of tractors , would be made
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Nogcantsi and DD.P.?
What
about
MR. GUZANA: Yes , anything illegal is known as being Communist , according to your way of thinking . I suppose if you were to abduct a lady you would be called a Communist . Everything that does not conform with "apartheid" is dubbed by you as being communistically inclined . The hon . the Minister of Education quoted from a book written about Fischer . Is Fisher the Democratic Party?
available as mone y for wages to labourers if he were to use labourers instead of graders? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Use human labour for labour that should be done by machine?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He is receives help from your
MR. GUZANA: And you do not need to reduce my argument into being ridiculous by suggesting that all machinery would be withdrawn . The submission is that machinery should displace the labourer who has
the person who party .
MR . GUZANA : Is Fischer the founder of the Democratic Party? What proof have you that he received assistance?
no alternative job, or a skilled job, to take up .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He said it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In the twentieth century?
MR . GUZANA: Is he not just hoping that he was going to receive assistance? Will you put that before the House so that we will know if there is any substance in his claim ? The trouble is that any Tom, Dick or Harry who makes any statement about the Opposition is taken to be an authority on the Opposition . (Interjections) The trouble is that anybody who ....
MR.. GUZANA: So you may have your lovable tractors and your lovable graders , but they should not displace the unskilled labourer. I would like the hon . the Minister or Roads not to buy machinery and let it rust across the river at the Trust garage. For the last four months I have been driving regularly every morning and afternoon past that Trust yard and lorries are getting rusty from exposure and because they are not being used . There are two ox-drawn or tractor-drawn graders in Mount Frere which have been delivered there and nobody knows what they are there for. Why was that money not made available as wages? I am also concerned with the unskilled labourer who is forming a majority of the population of the Transkei and a Government which has the interests of the people at heart must look at the lowest members of the community economically . You have got to improve the people by pulling up your boot straps and no philosophy and theorising will give the people bread to eat. You must grasp the practical situation · the difficulties of the individual · and see how you can reduce " apartheid" to practical politics . (Interjections) Yes , even my talk won't improve anything because I can never
THE CHIEF MINISTER : In a court of law Nogcantsi said he wanted to introduce his Communist friend .
MR . GUZANA: The trouble is these men are like horses who are taught never to look to right or left, and if I understood the Prime Minister of South Africa correctly he stated quite distinctly that a man should meet another and exchange views . THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
Do you
ex-
change views with Communists? MR . GUZANA: He stated quite clearly that in order to understand problems of other people we must have round-table conferences , but this Government is so blinkered that it cannot think to left or right.
58.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is an admission of round- table conferences with Communists . MR. GUZANA: I have never mentioned having round- table conferences with the Communists . Our Government is so incapable of thinking for themselves that if I tell them the y are of the female sex they will believe me . (Interjections) Now I dub you as a female and will you please go down to Lillian's Stores and buy yourself a dress . (Laughter) This Communist bogey is empty . and dead . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not dead.
special preserve of Communists either. There are men in this House who are not Communists but they entertain feelings of hate. You have raised the question of Nogcantsi and I have replied to it. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: the accomplices ?
What about
MR . GUZANA: What have the accomplices got to do with it? Why were the y not charged? GOVERNMENT MEMBER: evidence .
They gave
MR . GUZANA: It is because there was nothing to incriminate them. (Interjections ) It would help a lot to look at things objectively .
MR. GUZANA : Tell us something you can raise against the Opposition . THE CHIEF MINISTER : In evidence Nogcantsi said he was in touch with Ahrenstein .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I will just refer you to rule 50 , which gives the Chairman powers to adjourn the Assembly. linza en skinfinn
MR. GUZANA : I suppose if you speak to a man who is said to stand for multiracialism you will be said to hold with multi-racialism . You walk on mud , therefore
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members ....
you are mud. I cannot understand how you people reason . (Interjections) I did suggest a course on tact and diplomacy at the Jongilizwe School.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Sit down. You are talking nonsense . GUZANA : MR . This questionable Government has asked the Opposition whether they will go and tell the people that we do not want more land and they think they have
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The trouble is that you meet Communists and you behave like Communists .
got some weapon with which to upset the majorities of the Democratic Party in the elections . Let me bring you to a full realisation of your acceptance of the policy of separate development over that issue . If you accept separate development you have indeed agreed that the confines of the Transkei are adequate for the Transkeian population.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. GUZANA: Are you saying that President Johnson is a Communist, and the It Prime Minister of.... (Interjections) shows what mental aberrations you will go into .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What inspired Nogcantsi to attempt my life?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And you agree with that. 10
MR . GUZANA: Probably it was hatred of you which was reciprocal. ( Interjections )
MR . GUZANA : You should therefore not be heard to cry out for more land, because your acceptance of separate development limits you to the Transkei .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. GUZANA: You betrayed in this House a great dislike and a hate for Nogcantsi .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is that why you do not want more land?
What about
MR. GUZANA: Can you be heard to ask for more land? Why speak in contradiction to your convictions of " apartheid ” ?
THE
CHIEF
MINISTER:
accomplices? MR. GUZANA: And like begets like and hatred begets hatred , and if we were to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about your convictions? MR . GUZANA : You do not seem to
open your heart and subject it to examination , probably we would find a core of hatred which nothing could remove. If you
understand our policy . You can never understand anything besides " apartheid" . (Interjections) You can never understand anything inconsistent with your policy. (General uproar) Now I am chastising this Government and they are twisting and turning and squirming and shouting. I will appeal to the Chairman to keep these rebel-rousers quiet.
inspire hatred you must get hatred in return . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA: And hatred is not the
59.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Read further.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Bring out your policy . How can we understand a policy which is not there?
MR . GUZANA: We have asked this Government for the positive aspects of "apartheid" and we have not received
MR. GUZANA : Multi-racialism seeks a full realisation of the African in the whole of the Republic .
them. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And seeks no land .
MR . GUZANA: I read further: "A puzzled silence in the House followed this apparent criticism of the Government party ." I am reading further.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . bodour MR. GUZANA: We say we belong to the land that is South Africa. You can very well shout for land because you say you belong only to the Transkei .
THE MINISTER Which is true .
OF
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Read further.
AGRICULTURE : MR. GUZANA: Do you want me to read on? I read further : "We must be prepared to accept all its negative measures ." (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: But it is a stupid shout, like the cry of a child, because a child will cry for a bone when it cannot do anything with it.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Read
on.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is it because you think the Transkei people cannot do an ything with land that you do not want more?
MR . GUZANA: I will send you a copy of the Daily Dispatch. He wants me to read further: " ...which confined the people in their own territory ..."
MR . GUZANA: If territorial gains we beyond the boundaries not be content with
THE CHIEF MINISTER: quotation .
we should seek any should certainly go of South Africa and just the Transkei .
That was a
MR . GUZANA: ... " and of using their creative energy in their own confines and of realising their political aspirations in their own community."
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is a dream . MR. GUZANA: You only understand dreams . You dream during the day . Therefore we shall not need to cry out for more land because we belong to the whole of the Republic . (Interjections) I am ashamed at
THE CHIEF MINISTER : quotation .
the behaviour of these " apartheidists ." The trouble is they won't listen to the other point of view. (Interjections)
body else's statement. In other words , he concedes ....
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We don't want to listen to nonsense .
on.
That was a
MR . GUZANA: This was an expression. of his views . It was not a quotation of any-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Read
MR . GUZANA: I cannot because I must watch my time . In other words he concedes that the policy of separate development must result in the African being confined ,
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
MR. GUZANA: We have heard from the newly-elected member of the TNIP , when he delivered his maiden speech yesterday , that we should be very grateful that the policy of separate development did not use its positive content as a veil of decency to camouflage its oppressive measures .
he must be localised , he must be enclosed , regimented and kept down to a specified geographical area and to a specified community . THE CHIEF MINISTER : He never said that. That is your own conclusion .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is wrong with that?
MR . GUZANA: At 7 .15 last night African Survey brought to the notice of the citizens of South Africa that a cable is being laid to connect South Africa with the rest of the world. In other words , South Africa seeks to overcome the difficulties of distance in order to bring...
MR . GUZANA: Now for a change we have somebody who can use his mind independently of the leadership of the TNIP. He is beginning to see things for what they are . He says the positive content has a veil of decency to camouflage its oppressive measures . Is there a more cutting and telling indictment of " apartheid"
is
than that?
60.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Republic not yours . It belongs to the Whites .
MR . GUZANA: ....to bring the English , Americans , Australians , New Zealanders: almost next door to South Africa. (Interjections)
heid" seeks to engender hatred and exclusiveness . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are the killers . You engender hatred .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think this hon . member will have to be named . (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: Oh , is that the ghost of the Chief Minister? I hope the hon. members have noted that this is not their leader, but a ghost of their leader. (Laughter) Mr.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think you will have to follow me because we are making a noise together.
Chairman and hon . members , we believe that the emancipation and development of the African is inextricably hitched to the wagon of development of the White man .
MR . GUZANA: But I have the floor. Then you have men here who seek to isolate the African here in the Transkei from the other races living in South Africa . We heard
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you going to do about it? MR. GUZANA: You quite rightly ask the question : What am I going to do about it? You are an obstruction in the way and the difficulty is that the African is being further subjected to it because there are some Africans who are accepting the policy of separate development. The Government party has been trading on this to raise funds for their party and selling cards saying that if you have the TNIP membership card the whole of South Africa is open to you.
it from the hon . member for Qaukeni that there must be economic separation . What is this isolationism which is typically Communistic about this Government? (Laughter) Yes , you try and get into Russia - you won't get a visa to go there . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Have you tried to get into Russia?
MR . GUZANA: This is the mind which THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who said that?
seeks to isolate the African people , to separate him from other races , which militates against the wholesome and adequate and complete development of the individual . We pride ourselves on the good relationships that have existed for centuries in South Africa .
MR . GUZANA: Why have these cards been returned to the offices of the TNIP? Why are people ashamed to show they have a registration mark in their reference books?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What were you before 1963?
THE They are
OF EDUCATION : MINISTER afraid of killers on that side . E
MR . GUZANA: I was a citizen of South Africa.
MR . GUZANA: Immediately the registration is shown the work seeker is told: Go
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You were not . You only thought you were .
to Matanzima . (Interjections) The policy even underof separate development is even mining the economy of the Transkei .
MR . GUZANA: I know that a cock will crow over his little dung-hill and that is exactly what you are doing. (Interjections) The policy of multi-racialism seeks to include all races and the sentiments that
THE CHIEF MINISTER: friends who are opposed to
It is your the policy .
should motivate immigration should be to bring people together and to bring people even from overseas to live together in this country .
cannot do so because of your policy , and under your policy they are justly told to go to Matanzima because he accepts it. If we were the Government of this country there would never be any such difficulty .
MR. GUZANA: The people who would bring money to the Transkei from outside
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Before 1963 you could not be a member of a legislative Assembly .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : How would u yo do it?
GUZANA: And neither could you , is why you opposed " apartheid" long ago and you somersaulted one of these political plums was
MR. GUZANA: WeH would certainly not wield a "kierie " . We would use tact and diplomacy which is lacking in this Government . (Interjections)
MR.. and that not SO because
hanging over your head, and one of the was the paramountcy. (Interjecplums
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
please .
tions) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order .
MR . GUZANA: I sometimes feel sorry for people who can think no further than the
MR . GUZANA: The policy of " apart-
policy which has been implanted into them . Their minds have become stultified and
61.
1 shall now put the question that the words "has full confidence in the Government" should be substituted .
there is no future for them. They follow a narrow path and think that Heaven is at the other end. They are misconstruing the Biblical injunction that the way to Heaven is full of difficulties .
Agreed to by 57 votes to 34 .
Heim THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you will never go to Heaven on that side . SO
The motion as amended was put and carried by 58 votes to 36 .
MR . GUZANA: If I get to Heaven and
AFTERNOON SESSION .
find you there I would like to go to Hell . (Laughter)
The
Assembly resumed
at 2.15 p.m.
TRANSKEL APPROPRIATION BILL SECOND READING .
егTHE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: How can a bunch of killers go to Heaven? MR. GUZANA: I put it to this House that no right-thinking person can have confidence in a Government like that .
BUDGET SPEECH . 1967. Mr. Chairman this House :
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you want to be Prime Minister of the Transkei under
and honourable members of
Before I move that the Appropriation Bill for 1967 be read a second time , I shall ,
this same Constitution?
as is customary,. make my budget statement . In doing so I do not propose to dwell on the the economic problems which beset an
MR . GUZANA: I would rather be a prime minister than a chief minister . A prime minister is Prime Minister of the Republic and a chief minister is Chief Minister of a " pondokei " Transkei . (Laughter) I move you gentlemen on the other side
underdeveloped territory like the Transkei . Neither shall I harp on what has already been achieved in stimulating economic growth in our homeland as much has been said in this regard in past speeches and debates .
to look at matters objectively . (Interjections) I see these men have been appealing to the clock to move faster than it does in order to get me to sit. You may use this magazine Malawi' to hide behind because
I do however, want to stress the fact that the economic advancement of a nation
Malawi follows the policy of multi -racialism . Think before you vote and let your conscience direct your hand. I certainly did not touch on the hon . Paramount Chief of Qaukeni . I would not like to be induced to flay him. I gave him more than the usual respect on this motion . I hope he will accord me similar respect. I move you gentlemen to consider the facts as put before you in a critical appraisal of a failing Government and to vote for the motion as I have moved it: That this House has no
goes hand in hand with, and is to a large extent determined by, the productivity of its people . When I refer to productivity here I do not think only in terms of manual achievement. I refer also to mental productivity which is so vital in a modern world, and without which we cannot hope to achieve our aims , least of all in the economic field . Although many of our people who live from the land have been slow in appreciating the benefits to be derived from a cash or
confidence in the Government .
market economy , the signs are that they are beginning to realise the agricultural potential of the Transkei and are showing an increasing interest in the agricultural co-operative movement in particular and in agricultural economics in general . It has been proved over and over again that in a very short space of time the Tran skei's crops can be increased fivefold and more all that is required is co-operation with the Department of Agriculture in in applying better farming methods , and more initiative , hard work and ambitious planning by the farming community itself. No great skills are required to increase the income per capita phenomenally and give benefits mightier than a hundred new industries .
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question. THE SECRETARY: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members , the question before the House is a motion by the hon . member - for Dalindyebo , Mr. K.M. Guzana, "That this House has no confidence in the Government' , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon . member, the Minister for Education, to delete all the words after "House" and to + substitute therefor the following words has full confidence in the Government. " I put the question that the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the motion .
The greatest challenge facing the Transkei and its leaders today is the fight
The words proposed to be deleted were votes to 34 . deleted eted by 57 votes by 57
against poverty , the development of the country and development of its people in short, to create conditions where every
THE SECRETARY : The amendment has been agreed to and the words deleted. I
62.2
citizen will be able to make a decent living in the land of his birth .
So much for the economic picture . Let us turn now to our present financial position .
Fortunately , Mr. Chairman , unlike many of the South African States , we in the Transkei have been quick to realise that economic strength and development is born out of agriculture . · We have appreciated the fact that agriculture must not be regarded as a characteristic of a backward country and that, although industry may have although "status" and may be politically popular, its growth depends to a very large extent on the solidarity and productivity of the agricultural sector.
Mr. Chairman and honourable members , let me say at once that the state of our finances has, due to responsible administration and also to assistance from the Republican Government, remained sound and, in fact, it has been possible for me again to make provision on the Estimates for the full programme of service contemplated by the six government departments for the current financial year and also to approve substantial salary increases and improved salary scales to public servants and teachers . Details of these concessions have already been announced and will cost. the Government an estimated additional
Let agricultural development and an intensive campaign for study and increased mental productivity , therefore , be our main and immediate goal and with the continued assistance and protective guidance of the Republican Government our economy will blossom forth .
R873,000 for the current financial year and, of course, for future years as well.
Consequential salary increases have also become necessary for persons in other public offices and the following has been authorised in this regard:
The Xhosa Development Corporation and other bodies are planning industries in the Transkei . The said corporation's plans for its first industrial complex at Butterworth are, for instance , in an advanced
(a) Members of the Legislative Assembly, the Chaimman and members of the Public Service Commission will all receive an additional R200
stage . These industries will be a boon to our economy and will provide a good living for hundreds of people.
p.a. with effect from the 1st April , 1967 , while
Understandably the Transkei is delighted at the industrial prospects but those who expect that such industries will solve all
(b) the salaries of Paramount Chiefs and Cabinet Ministers will be increased by R800 p.a. from the same date .
our problems are guilty of stargazing . Real development is human development and that is something which must come from the people themselves . Industries established
The additional expenditure flowing therefrom will amount to R30,000 p.a.
by agencies such as the Development Corporation are like a doctor's injection . A " shot in the arm" , as the Americans are wont to call it, can help a sick person to fight a disease but for the treatment to be a complete success the patient has to have the will to recover and live . We, the Xhosa nation, must have the will to advance and
It has been found necessary furthermore, to provide an additional R287,000 for expansion of the fixed establishment and for normal salary increments , thus bringing the additional funds required for the payment of salaries , to R1,190,000.
to uplift ourselves through our own initiative .
wages
and allowances
Other services for which substantially larger amounts are being requested are social pensions , agricultural development and building services. Between three and four hundred thousand rand more will be required for each of these services for the current fiscal year.
Mr. Chairman and honourable members, I would use this opportunity to appeal to parents and teachers to do everything in their power to encourage and influence and exhort their children and pupils to qualify at the highest levels or at least to study to the utmost limits of their ability and to make them alive to the fact that today a nation has no future unless every one of its citizens is ever conscious of the need for self-betterment. Let us rise to the occasion and from now on strive to make optimum use of the brain power of our people which has been latent for too long. The Xhosa nation is crying out for engineers , architects , surveyors , economists
Members will observe from the printed estimates which I tabled some days ago that the estimated total expenditure anticipated for the current year amounts to R18,937,000 , a figure which represents an increase of very nearly 15% over the amount voted in respect of the 1966/67 financial year.
and the host of other professional and technical people so essential to a growing economy . Let us , therefore , put the accent on education and make " self-development" our first watch word .
The actual surplus carried forward in the Exchequer at the start of the 1966/67 financial year was considerably larger than anticipated - R2,905,000 to be exact, instead of the estimated figure of R2,148,000 as
63.
the Transkei is concerned. With the finan-
quoted in my previous budget statement. This saving together with an anticipated saving of R1,536,000 during the past financial year plus a very substantial increase in revenue has enabled me again to balance my budget for the current year and perhaps to allow for a reasonable surplus at the close.
The
estimated
Balance
figures
are
as
at
1st
April ,
available
cial position as already described , no new measures for increased taxes are proposed for the current financial year.
Before concluding I would like. to announce that the Government has decided to make R1,000,000 of the funds held in the Transkei an Development and Reserve Fund available for loans to agricultural co-operatives in the Transkei so as to enable them to provide seasonal credit to their members
follows: 1966
R2,905,000 Plus estimated estimated savings during 1966/67 ... .......... ..1,536,000 Plus underestimate of revenue for 1966/67 .981,000 Estimated total surplus as at 31st R5,422,000 March, 4 1967 ......
for the purchase of seed, fertilizers , insecticides , etc. etc. Mr. Chairman, I trust that the proposals for expenditure as contained in the printed Estimates for 1967/68 will meet with the approval of this Assembly and I now move that the Appropriation Bill be read a second time .
If we add to this the estimated revenue to be derived from our own resources i.e. R3,977,000 and the Republican Government's grant of R10,810,000 towards our Revenue Fund, we find that there is an amount of R20,209,000 from which to meet amounting expenditure to R18,937,000
I thank you for your attention . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall put the question that the Bill be now read a second time .
during the current year..
Thus
Mr.
Chairman
and
honourable
members, I am budgeting for a surplus of R1,272,000 at the close of the 1967/68 financial year. To a very large extent the favourable financial position I have set forth is due to nearly a million rand more than anticipated having found its way into our Revenue Fund during the past financial year. The amount estimated in respect of General Tax for the past financial year will probably be exceeded by R400,000 as a result of a determined effort on the part of
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think the irregularity can be corrected between gentlemen . I shall therefore crave the indulgence of the Chairman to allow me to comment on this budget speech . THE CHAIRMAN : Very well .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it gives me great pleasure indeed to participate in this discussion on the budget speech by the hon . the Minister of Finance .
my Department and the Department of Bantu Administration and Development to stamp out tax evasion . Interest on investments has realised nearly R200,000 more than estimated , mainly because of a revised policy for investment of the daily balances in the Exchequer and, of course , general increases in the interest rate.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can make comments , that is all. I will draw your attention to the rules of the House and I will stop you. MR . GUZANA: The hon. the Chief Minister wants me to make comments . If I must say so , probably the eccentricities are due to the fact that he is undergoing convalescence. (Laughter) I wish to comment favourably on the fact that the budget speech has not been made a vehicle for political propaganda this year, and the whole question....
The estimated saving of R1,500,000 on the Estimates for the past financial year can be ascribed to a tendency by Departments to overestimate expenditure . This tendency is , however, far less pronounced than in previous years and should , with further guidance from the Treasury, be limited to a more acceptable level . As regards the surplus carried forward from the 1966/67 financial year I would explain though , that the Treasury , in accordance with appeals by the Republican Minister of Finance and other economic experts for a curtailment of state expenditure, has kept a watchful eye on departmental requests for financial sanction of proposed services with a view to eliminating possible extravagance.
THE
CHAIRMAN :
Excuse
me,
hon.
member, I think according to the correct procedure I must adjourn the debate. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , it is customary in the House of Assembly in Cape Town for the Leader of the Opposition to make comments on the budget speech before the adjournment of the debate is moved so I crave your indulgence to allow him to make such comments.
Mr. Chairman and honourable members , although a 23% increase in taxation in a nearby new Black state was found necessary I can set your minds at ease in so far as
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you should
64.
people of the Transkei must develop intellectually also , and that is one of the reasons why , during the no- confidence debate , we benevolently criticized the hon. the
look at rule 130 , hon . member. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, Sir, I have read rule 130 and that is why I am saying this. You said where the rules are not provided for in these regulations we can follow the procedure as pertains in other countries. Now this is the procedure in South Africa .
Minister of Education with a view to pushing him on to greater effort. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are always picking on me. (Laughter) MR . GUZANA: Whilst the ordinary members of the Legislative Assembly may well say Thank-you for the extra R200 per year, and probably the paramount chiefs and the Cabinet Minister will say a big Thank-you for the R800 increase , it is a sad commentary on these increases that the
THE CHAIRMAN : All right, carry on . MR . GUZANA: ... and that the finances of the Transkei have been analysed objectively . It is gratifying to note that the financial experts of the Government have realised that the economic development of the Transkei will primarily begin by the exploitation of the natural resources of the Transkei . Thus exploitation of our forests and the use of our land are the basis of development and in this regard I would like to say that the Government should not be
Cabinet Ministers have received that they should be equal to the basic salary originally received by members of the Legi slative Assembly. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame!
hidebound by certain schemes and certain dogmas . We would like to see the Government embarking on an elastic and variable agricultural policy , changing from place to place , changing according to the conditions of development in one are a as compared
MR. GUZANA: We must commend the Treasury for a wise policy of spending with care to be able to carry over a surplus to boost up the amount available for exduring the 1967/68 financial penditure
with another , and that an area for agricultural development must not necessari ly accept a particular scheme before capital is injected into the area to develop that plan of agriculture or animal husbandry in which the residents of that particular area are interested . We see here disclosed in
year. We do hope , however, that this substantial increase in the budget available for this financial year has not been occasioned to a considerable degree by a failure on the part of the Government to implement essential services in the Transkei . It is commendable to note that the departments are becoming more and more aware of their financial needs for a coming year, to the the extent that over- estimation is becoming eliminated , and if the Treasury is keeping its eye on extravagance it may well be keeping its eye glued to the figures before it, rather than to the vehicles it has bought for the Government. The hon. the Minister
this budget speech a positive willingness on the part of the Government to assist the people in developing agriculturally and, being a poor portion of the Republic of South Africa, we cannot be seen to bite the hand that helps us . I refer to the benevolent assistance given by the Government of the Republic to the Transkei and , if I may say so , there are many other people , even private companies , which are willing to give assistance in the development of agriculture in the Transkei . I am thinking of firms which distribute agricultural implements and companies which produce fertilizers , who may well be willing to assist the Transkei farmer to a full exploitation of the agricultural potential here . And one would like to see a deputa-
of Finance has mentioned something that has been welcome to people in the Transkei , to the effect that there is no fear of increased taxes for the financial year 1967/68 . I welcome this on behalf of the people , but I who are in come tax suppose Africans payers have rather queer faces just about this time of the year. You have not been able to help them out. I want to say that this side of the House welcomes the decision of the Treasury to make available the R1 million which was lying idle in the Transkei Development and Reserve Fund for loans to agricultural co-operatives in the Transkei . One hopes that the individual farmer will also be able to benefit under
tion going out to France or going out to Israel to see what can be done with land and to what extent we could benefit from schemes taken over from these two countries . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And what about Russia?
this scheme of loans because they need as much help as anybody else in developing their private farms . The speech has been most welcome indeed and the thoughts and the ideas very constructive , and we are not going to bring in any political significance in this business of rands and cents at the moment. Ek bedank u baie , Meneer die
MR. GUZANA: Of course I will send the hon . the Minister of Education to Russia . (Laughter) It is gratifying to note that while the Government is willing to give this financial assistance to the farmer in the Transkei it does not seek to kill ini-
Voorsitter.
tiative on the part of the farmer , so the motto of this Government is not " Follow me" , but " There is the way " . We agree whole-heartedly with the dictum that the
THE CHAIRMAN : We shall postpone debate on this speech until tomorrow.
65.
commanded
respect and dignity in the society. These men enjoyed the confidence of their tribesmen . The chiefs , or rulers , or kings , as they were known then, also had confidence in them because it is those
OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF OPPOSITION .
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:
men who built up the law and who gave it back to the people in fair play and justice in administration . Even in those councils you did have some who represented an opposite view-point to that held by other members in the same council . In other words , the principle of a judicial administrative concept of fair play had been conceived as far back as the African people , even before the advent of the White man in
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of according the official opposition in the Transkei Legislative Assembly official recognition under the same principle as that of the Republic of South Africa. "
Sir, we shall recall that after the general election , the Republican Government, prior to organising the Government of the Transkei , did organise a political seminar for the members of the Assembly to acquaint themselves with the rules of procedure on parliamentar matters . I may y say here that even before the general elections varying opinions among the electorate had already shown that there should have been provision in the Constitution Act of the Transkei for an official Opposition . We are aware that the architects of the set-up in the Transkei were mainly influe nced , I think , by Native traditional and customary law in the drawing up of the Act, but as soon as an announcement was made for the candidates to come forward manifestos were written which did show the then ruling
this country . This came more to the forefront where the ruler became a hard-hearted autocrat. Sometimes the whole council would constitute itself into an opposition to the tyrant. Therefore the concept of recognising an opposition in any government is not a new thing. It has always been with nations and tribes since time immemorial . The value of an opposition in any sound government needs no explanations to the people who understand Western ways of democratic government . It shall have been noticed that when this Constitution was drafted and passed, as well as the rules and regulations governing this House , by the time this Government was organised some parts of this document had been outdated already . We may , with appreciation , commend the architects of the set-up in the Transkei for the provision of bringing up the concept of an opposition entrenched in the principles of this Constitution under Part V, Clause 23 ( c). In this clause on the composition of this Assembly you have eleven words there , out of the thousands in this Constitution Act, which read as follows (and indeed I would say blessed words that more or less remind us of the eleven who were left after Judas ) . It reads as follows : " 45 members elected by the registered voters of the Transkei " ; and
people that they had misinterpret ed the development of the African people . Emanating from the principles of those manifestos , it was clear that at its very outset this House should be so situated as to have an Opposition side and that side to come on its own evolutionary way . THE MINISTER OF You mean revolutionary.
AGRICULTURE :
MR. RAJUILI : The unfortunate thing is have a Minister who always thinks everything is revolutionary. He should go to Russia. Now it became clear that this was indeed in the way of evolution. In the customary life of the Native , or of the Kaffir, as he was called in older times , people were influenced by the traditionalists whose arbitrary, customary , autocratic , unwritten law influenced their life . In the traditional , African , proper customary , administrative way of things there were constituted tribal and national councils who looked after the welfare of the people . It is very well known by members of this Assembly that those councils , which were advisory more than anything else , consisted of near relatives to the rulers who formed those councils and enjoyed the confidence of the ruler who in turn reciprocated that s ame confidence of his councillors in giving out the laws. These councillors were recommended by tribesmen for their experience and wisdom in matters of the tribe . We are aware that the younger men were excluded from these advisory councils - young men in war and old men for wisdom you
it was considered that the opposite view from the chunk of members in front of me who come here automatically , like water running down the drain, should be heard . (Laughter) That shows that the Republican Government was aware that the people , or the voices of the people , have to be heard as against a chunk of tyrants . (Laughter) We are aware and we appreciate the attitude of the Government for its indirect recognition of this side of the House by affording them the beautiful caucus room outside in the foyer. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We will take even that and you will meet in the street. MR. RAJUILI: You see , the late Prime Minister knew that a person like this might exist. That is why he provided for that. In the regulations that govern this House some of them can no longer obtain and, in fact, have never at any stage pertained in this Assembly, because of the set-up here. Rule 149 (a) and (b) - Appointment of Select
·
and counsel. In these councils you had men in the proper sense of the word · men that 66.
Committees
-
in this Assembly that no
man , I move.
longer obtains. We have been ever since doing our work and carrying on with the government of the Transkei in our own way without ever putting that rule aside . The
MR. T.H. BUBU: I second the motion , Mr. Chairman .
Opposition which organised itself in accordance with the wishes of the people has made a valuable contribution in the development of this government and its work in the Transkei . We also appreciate the action of the Transkei Government for having accorded the Qpposition an office, thereby showing recognition of this side . The Opposition organised itself so ably that it has to have a leader to whom this Assembly gave an office furnished with a telephone . All these things I am pointing out go to show that with the parliamentary consultations that have taken place in this House , select committees in accordance with democratic ways of doing things and
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I move as an amendment to the motion that all the words. after the word " Assembly' be deleted and with the following words :substituted "There is no need to alter the status of the main opposition party in the Transkei Legislative Assembly ." Mr. Chairman, in speaking to the motion I wish to say that the present main Opposition is playing the part of an Oliver Twist. In the Constitution there is no provision for an Opposition and that is why they are aware of the fact that they are an unofficial Opposition, and that is precisely why , in my amendment, I have used the phrase " main opposition party " . We had, however, in our wisdom allowed them to exist as an unofficial Opposition . The hon . members will recall that some time last year I told this House about how God in his wisdom created an opposition for Himself in the person of Satan and he soon found out that he was matched up with an opposition who opposed every thing that he did or said . We have in our wisdom created a similar opposition in the Transkei .
bringing decisions back to this House , and lifting other matters out of the political arena, it shows that this side of the House has made such strides it must be recognized in a proper way . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What is the proper way? Increase of salary? MR . RAJUILI : The dignified manner and the responsible way in which the Opposition has conducted itself in helping a weak Government like this goes further to show the need for official recognition .
MR. 0.0 . MPONDO : It is nothing of your creation
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You even tried to eliminate them. What do you want?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We created you and we can destroy you if we want to. (Interjections) No amount of howling, yelling and bellowing will save the Opposition should we so decide to do . In any event, Mr. Chairman, let us examine
MR. RAJUILI : The Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa a little while ago was happy to meet, apart from the hirelings on that side of the House , the Leader of the Opposition , and I am sure
what the duty is of a proper Opposition . A proper Opposition is such as will always embark upon constructive criticisms of the
the Republican Government has valued very much the part played by the Opposition in the administration of the Transkei .
activities of any Government . Such responsibility which is given to this able Opposition should be rewarded in accordance with the principles of democracy . Many times the Government itself has had to thank the Opposition for the responsible way in which they have helped them out of the mess and the debris in which they have been struggling like
MR. C.S. MDA : Where do you get that wisdom? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But what do we find with the members on the opposite side? We find some of them, in fact, who would come near what would be known as a reasonable Opposition , but like a team of toads and unfortunately, like
tadpoles in the mud. (Laughter) I dare say even the Chairman of this Assembly has has valued the services of the Opposition in such a manner that he has treated it in man y cases as an official Opposition .
platannas , we have alongside these reasonable men a lot of reactionaries who do not even consider this very House as such, and most of them have actually gone so far as to call this House a political platform from which to criticize the Republican They do not Government. (Interjections) realise that this is a self-governing state within the Republic of South Africa. (Interjections)
EDUCATION: OF MINISTER THE The hon . member knows he is here unofficially . (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI : He misleads the House. I know very well I am here officially and correctly to come and help legislation, as we now feel we must so legislate as to
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
bring about the proper Opposition in this Assembly for proper govemment . Mr. Chair-
THE
67.
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION :
I
ject.
sometimes very sympathetic with the Leader of theOpposition who has to lead such a crew or span of toads and platannas and bullfrogs . (Laughter) He is a reasonman always offering constructive able criticisms of the Govemment, but most of you always pollute that constructive criti-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: As voters on a separate roll. They did not tell them there was the common roll of the White people in the Republic of South Africa and that they should register there . They said: Sign on the separate roll. (Interjections) The members who , when voting was done , actually told or influenced their
cism by going off at a tangent . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Including the mover of the motion .
respective tribes to vote, and not only did they do that, but they themselves came into this Chamber which is a separate
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , he is the chief one . Now, in order to consider whether or not to afford official recognition to you as an Opposition, you must first of all know what your duty or duties are. You will remember that during the no- confidence debate I levelled charges against you , most of which remained unanswered.
Before
we
grant you
Parliament, which has a separate Government, and then they go out to the country and tell the people: We want to go to the Parliament of the White people in Cape Town. (Interjections) Now what do you want in this House? Why don't you stay away from this House and say you won't go to that separate Parliament, and that you will only go to Parliament in Cape Town? (Interjections) All you are is a pack of imposters , hypocrites and deceivers . How can we recognise such an Opposition?
official
recognition we must search you and see whether you are fit and proper persons to be recognised as such , and it will be from the results of that witch-hunt that we come to a proper decision as to what we should do .
MR. GUZANA: The policy of the Opposition has nothing to do with the subject .
MR. RAJUILI : Are you a witch-hunter now?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The other day, as I told you , you were termed a group of unmanageable individuals , and you are. Some of you are Progressives , some of you are Liberals , some of you are fellow-travellers of Communists , some of you are murderers. How on earth are we to recognise officially such an Opposition? I have told you that my concept of an Opposition (and , in fact, your leader agrees with me) is that the Opposition should give constructive criticism of Government activities and also to recognise and uphold the Constitution of the House. How can we recognise an Opposition which , when it feels it cannot unseat the Government, it turns to violence , it turns to murder? (interjections) I do not expect you , honl member,
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As far as you are concemed. We recognise your caucus as an unofficial Opposition and that is why you want to be recognised as an official Opposition , otherwise you would not have worried about it. Some of you no doubt....
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Doubt? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , you are thinking of Doubt because he is a witch-doctor. (Laughter) Some of you would no doubt like to see this Parliament turned into a political platform . (Interjections) There is one of them saying there is no need for this Government. Now you should realise that this Government is a creation of your very selves · a creation of my hon. Paramount Chief who has his signature on the original of the Constitution
to say anything .
MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I am not stopping the speaker from saying a lot of nothing, but at no time has this Opposition been what he says , so I think he should withdraw that.
(a Constitution whose cornerstone is separate development) away in Pretoria; a creation of my hon . friend Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, whose signature attached to that original Constitution , without coercion ,
THE CHAIRMAN: There much in what he said. Carry on .
is
nothing
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman , I told the hon . members across the floor that they had the whole year in which to show their objection to the activities and actions of five of the members across the floor. They still remain members of that side , are sitting with those members on the other side , and are in every respect part and parcel of the Opposition. How can this side of the House know whether the Opposition were not a socius criminale?
away in Pretoria; the signature of my hon. friend, Chief S.S. Majeke , on the original away in Pretoria; the signature of my hon . Chief Tutor Ndamase , whose signature was obtained without duress , away in Pretoria; the signature of my hon . Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo , whose signature was obtained voluntarily and without duress , and not only did these hon. members sign the Constitution, they went out to their respective tribes and tried to persuade their respective tribes to register as voters .
The hon. member , Mr. Raziya , the hon. Mr. Majija, the hon . Chief D.D.P. - they have not even told us that they did what they did
MR... GUZANA : Come back to the sub-
68.
their
own , without having conferred own, with the rest of the members of the Opposition. (Interjections) They are going to say that they were not charged . They were not charged all right, but in accordance with the rules of criminal procedure in this on
Mr. Chairman .
THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute , hon . member. I want a seconder. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman .
country , before each and every one of them gave evidence they were warned as accomplices that.... (Interjections ) It is here , I will quote it. They were warned that if the y gave their evidence satisfactorily they would not be charged.
017
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 28th April, 1967 .
(Interjections)
MR. MPONDO: Where is Dunne? You imported him from Pretoria to the Transkei .
FRIDAY, 28TH APRIL, 1967.
The THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We never imported him. It was Nkosiyane , it was Nogcantsi who formed a plot with that White man. (Interjections ) You like White people , that is why your policy is multiracialism and you believed that he had come to save you . Here the Paramount Chief
Assembly
at
resumed
11
a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILLSECOND READING.
of Tembuland says to Mr. Dunne , the White man: "We are very happy to have men like you on our side ." It is on record . (Inter-
The debate was resumed .
jections)
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this side of the House has commented on the budget speech of the hon . the Minister of Finance . We feel that at this stage we would not like to make further
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I quoted it last year. Without being coerced by anybody the (Interjections)
Paramount
Chief says ...
comment as we shall be able to go critically into this matter as each Vote is brought before the House by the various Ministers . We shall therefore not oppose the motion by the hon . the Minister of Finance .
THE CHAIRMAN : I do not like those remarks . The hon. members must not make such a noise .
THE CHIEF
MINISTER : Mr. • Chairman
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The hon. Paramount Chief, speaking to that White man said: "We have discussed you a lot and we are glad to have a man like you on our side . The time has come for
and hon . members , I thank my hon. friend , the Leader of the Opposition , for co-operating in expediting the business of the House. Yesterday I moved the second reading ofthe Bill and it was seconded.
positive action and we are going to eliminate some of the opposition . George Matan zima will be the first. " That is what he said, and you have such people on your side , and the hon. Paramount Chief does
THE CHAIRMAN : I will now put the question that the Bill be read a second time . Does the House agree?
not even end at that. I am sorry he is not here today . He said he had twenty good , trained men who had been trained to stir
Agreed to. The
up trouble in the Transkei . Now when a paramount chief and a member of the Opposition can say such a thing as that he has about twenty men to stir up trouble in the Transkei , what can we think of the Opposition? (Interjections)
Bill
was
read
THE CHAIRMAN : committee stage?
a
What
second
date
time .
for the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Tuesday , next week, Sir. CHAIRMAN : THE paramount Hon. chiefs and hon . members , I wish to announce
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
that it is my intention to adjoum the Assembly at one o'clock today . Speakers are
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do they really and sincerely believe that we can give them official recognition? I admit that my honourable , reasonable friend must
requested not to make too many interjections in order to expedite the business of the House .
first teach you to follow his example , In fact, his position is even untenable because if we can raise his salary, some of these
OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF OPPOSITION .
wolves behind him can put him out of office. (Laughter)
The debate was resumed.
MR .
MR . A. RAZIYA: On a point of order,
69 .
T.H.
BUBU:
Mr.
Chairman
and
hon . members , in seconding the motion by the hon. Rev. Rajuili , a motion that is seeking to secure the recognition of the Opposition, I want to say from the outset that our request for recognition is something that is very simple , Mr. Chairman . It is obvious from all said and done during
is representative of the malpractices that you perpetrated there . THE CHIEF MINISTER: I never went to Qaukeni . You are not coming back in 1968 . THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
the past three years that there is tacit recognition of the Opposition , and our request for it during this session is merely to ask for a formality which , from the point of view of practice , is already existing. I must also state that it should be impressed upon the Government of the Transkei that when a question of this nature is being considered by the House , all of us here should be very calm and collected . We should not allow our personal hates and prejudices to come too much to the fore, and a conscious as well as an unconscious effort must be made to see everything in its true perspective . The members of the Opposition seated in this Assembly are representatives of the people of the Transkei . Whatever rights and privileges we seek to secure are really sought after because we are the representatives of the people . If the Government is sincere in its belief that self- government has come to stay , and must come to stay in the Transkei , it should show adequate evidence of that belief, and I want to submit, Mr. Chairman , that one form of this should be that they should show tangible evidence of recognising
MR . BUBU: We shall see . Mr. Chairman , in continuing my debate I want to say that when we seek that the Opposition should be recognised officially , we are trying to draw the official attention of the Government....
opposition views that are apparent in the Transkei. From what was said yesterday by the hon . the Minister of Education in this connection , it was evident that he was thinking almost exclusively of individuals
MR. BUBU : If the people I represent here recognise the Constitution it is because I recognise it . (Interjections ) If we did not recognise it we would not be members of this House .
who are making up the present Opposition . He tended to look at them as an exclusive body which is not connected with the citizens of the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you recognise the Constitution?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Recognise the Constitution first, then we shall give you official recognition . ....that the opposition MR. BUBU: political opinion in the Transkei should be given the stamp of recognition . They must be recognised as coming from the people. We are also seeking to say that we would like the members of the Opposition who are assisting to maintain order and progress to be recognised by every mean s at the disposal of the House.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people recognise the Constitution, but you don't recognise it.
MR. BUBU : Yes , I do . THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the electorate of Qaukeni did not send you here to oppose the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But there is no multi-racialism Constitution here . MR. BUBU: I recognise the Constitution that we have at present and for that reason I stand here as a representative of the people in this House . I want to show that the Goverment thinks too much of the policies for which we stand when they talk of recognition . I must say in that connection that opposition parties in the other parliaments are recognised not on that basis , but on the fact that they are duly elected legal representatives in a House of Parliament ....
MR. BUBU: That is your view. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That has been decided at the polls recently . MR. BUBU: If you quote the evidence at the polls as being representative of the free views of the people of Qaukeni , you are making the biggest mistake of your life . THE CHIEF MINISTER: It was.
MR . BUBU: All I can say to you is that you were successful in setting up machinery to see that they were forced
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But they have accepted the Constitution of the country . You are revolutionary Opposition members .
to vote as they did. You seem to claim that the man who has joined your ranks is representative of the people of Qaukeni . I want to tell you he is not.
MR . BUBU: ...unless their policies are in any way recognised as illegal .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Opposition parties in the Republican Parliament recognise the Constitution of the country . You are out for a revolution .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your member lost his deposit. MR . BUBU : I want to tell you that he
70.
MR . BUBU : The only trouble with you is that you take our recognising the Constitution to mean that we should accept your
remind him , by way of reply in this connection that during the past three ve years, in-
policy .
cluding this , we have had in all a total of six by-elections in six regions and of the six by-elections we won four.
This
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Parliament is based on separate development .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: gions.
MR. BUBU: In that connection we want to tell you we are not enamoured with your policy and we do not accept it at all .
MR. BUBU: The Government has only won two. If that is not telling evidence of our adequate representative nature in this House , I do not know. Regarding the last by- elections , numerical evidence of
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You don't want our Parliament. You want to go to Cape Town. (Interjections )
our representative nature is overwhelming. THE MINISTER Well , quote .
MR. BUBU: In this motion , without wasting time , Mr. Chairman , on these poor interjections by the hon . the Chief Minister, I want to tell the Government they must be
AGRICULTURE :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , I am not going to reply. I do not reply to small fry . MR . BUBU: We , the Opposition polled at least 81,000 . It is the views of those people, the 81,000 , that we want officially recognised here . To me that is telling evidence. Further, Mr. Chairman , I want to remind the Government that in a matter of this nature it would be consistent with
velopment was here to open this Assembly , he had the greatness of heart to invite our leader for the purpose of shaking hands with him and tacitly giving him recognition of his party. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . You
OF
MR . BUBU : I would ask the hon . the Chief Minister to listen . While the Government side in all polled 63,772. ...
very careful about this. They must remember that what we are seeking has already been tacitly given by the Govemment of the Republic. Last year when the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and De-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : consult your leader in anything.
In three re-
a very high sense of responsibility on the part of the Government to concede that we are an Opposition that is fit to be recognised .
never
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Sinaba is now forming the opposition - not you.
MR. BUBU: Again this year, when the honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic was here he extended an invitation to the Leader of the Opposition to meet him . That is enough evidence to show that we are recognised by the more responsible Government. (Interjections )
MR. BUBU: We have been responsible enough to elect leaders who are in every respect worthy of recognition. Both the present and the former leaders are reasonable men . (Interjections)
MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR .
BUBU :
So it
can be
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : followers are not as responsible.
seen , Mr.
Chairman , that whilst the Republican Government is aware that we are a responsible Opposition which seeks to advocate the
MR. BUBU : They are men who believe in compromise and co-operation and I think even for the sake of those men the Government should give us recognition . If the Government regards the members of this party as unruly members they must at least concede that we are able to choose acceptable leaders .
policy of multi -racialism....
CHIEF MINISTER: That is your THE farewell speech . You will not be here in 1968. MR. BUBU: ...and while they know that that policy is diametrically opposed to their own policy of separate development, they have conceded that we are an Opposition
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Expel the Communists from the party. Expel Nogcantsi and Nkosiyane.
which is representative of a large number of people in the Transkei and that as such we ought to be given due recognition . THE MINISTER Statistics?
OF
Their
MR . BUBU : I am not going to make any reference to what they are always inclined to resort to . In the recent case against some of the members of this party those men were accused as individuals , not as members of the party. They were convicted as such and sentenced as such. There is no reason why the Government should want to visit upon us their sins. (Interjections) If some of those who were involved in the trials
AGRICULTURE :
MR. BUBU : The hon. the Minister of Agriculture wants me to give particulars in regard to the fact that we are representing large numbers in the Transkei . I want to
71 .
were free it is because the court was convinced that they were innocent.
of the leaders of the Opposition never had Communism as their aim, we do know that among some of their members there are
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Let one of them speak here then.
those who have at some time associated themselves with Communists , with the
MR. BUBU: Now I want to speak about the choice before the Government and the
ultimate aim of turning this country into a socialistic society. (Interjections) How do we arrive at this conclusion? Their former coleagues have fled the country and are now in foreign countries. What happened to those men from our territory who fled to Basutoland and created disturbances , so much so that they had to be expelled?
choice they make will show whether they choose between greatness of heart or meanness . THE CHAIRMAN : Your time is up , hon. member. The press request that each time a member stand up to speak the interpreter should introduce him .
(Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR . CANCA: I want to say that we should not entrust official recognition with you. I wish to remind the Assembly that we have been given self-government by the Republican Government on the basis of separate development. I think everybody has
MR. M.H. CANCA: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a special request. I wish to ask for Mr. Mgobozi to interpret for me. I hope my friend will not be offended . MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , what is going to happen if we all say we want So-and-so to interpret for us? These interpreters are to enable people who are unable to follow to understand what is going on. THE CHAIRMAN: request. Carry on. MR.
CANCA:
Mr.
This
is
that hon. have that
development . (Interjections ) If the Opposition has not quite appreciated that up to now, let them do so now. Furthermore , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has from time to time shown himself to be opposed to the Government because , according to his speeches , he believes that we should have provincial status .
a special
Chairman and hon .
members , I rise to support the hon. the Minister of Education in his amendment . If the Government accepted the motion by the hon. Rev. Rajuili , seeking official recognition of the Opposition, it would be the greatest mistake that any Government has ever made . (Interjections) I would rather the hon. member understood the dictum
MR .
Sir de
Villiers
is possible that your party will assume power some day. That we are opposed to because if you were to come to power with your policy it would mean the end of the Transkei Government, because that is just what would happen . We will not embarrass ourselves for your sake . Are you suggesting we embarrass our mother Government - the Government? (Interjections) Republican Therefore we are not prepared to assist
lacks tact in carrying out negotiations . Through his tact and diplomacy the Leader of the Opposition has now made up his mind to press for a change in their status which will mean that if we make any concession in that regard, their policy will be entrenched .
You
Does
MR. CANCA: So if we decide to accord you official recognition · if we were to accord you the recognition you now seek, we would have to acknowledge your policy which is odious to us. (Interjections) It
seeing they have failed in their policy they have now got to put it in some other form. My hon . friend, the Leader of the 1 Opposition, says that the Government side
MEMBER :
RAJUILI :
Graaff accept the policy of the Republican Government? You are talking nonsense .
that there is a day for any beginning. It would mean an unsafe precedent if the Government made a concession in this respect. It will be recalled that some time past the Opposition has been making a noise about multi -racialism . I think that
OPPOSITION
clearly in his mind, particularly the the Leader of the Opposition , that we been given this self- government on condition , on the basis of separate
you. We know there are people who want the Constitution of this Assembly to be drawn up by Communists . We know that some of you were assisted by Ahrenstein , Fischer and others . Are you suggesting that we have a Constitution drawn up by Ahrenstein and others? We are not going
don't
know what you are talking about.
MR . CANCA: Let us examine the aims which appeared in the evidence given by one of the witnesses in the Fischer case : "One of the short term objectives of the Communist Party was the achievement of a multi-racial society. " Because the Opposition has failed to make its policy of
to do it. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR . CANCA: With those remarks , Mr. Chairman, I wish to make it clear to you that we shall never recognise you as an official Opposition .
multi-racialism succeed , they have now put the request that they be recognised as an official Opposition in this House . Although we are prepared to concede that the minds
CHIEF
72.
D.D.P. NDAMASE :
Mr. Chair-
man and hon. members , I stand up to support
wont to do himself . (Laughter) As a matter of fact, he often insults and annoys us . Among the members on this side there are three very strong paramount chiefs. The hon . Mr. Msengana moved that hospitals should be erected for the insane , and the mover of this motion said that such a hospital would be suitable for the members on this side. What can we do with such a member? We can do nothing about it. He has spoiled by his attitude even a thing that deserved our attention . It is very little
the Opposition party in its request that it should be recognised officially. The last speaker made the remark that no other Government has ever accepted an opposition in the history of Parliament. In Cape Town there is an Opposition which is official and it is recognised . We take it that this Parliament also is leading us to a similar happening . Will the hon . member deny this? Does he claim that we shall remain as a dummy government? This is what I want to tell the hon . members . The majority in this Assembly are members who have been employed by the administration . As far as I know administrators do not usually figure anywhere in Parliament.
that we want from you on the side. · What you are seeking is should be born anew. Be like who was born anew. If the
Opposition good. You Nicodemus Opposition
change their tactics we may perhaps think of changing this motion because it is a rule that is customary in Parliament. You have
(Interjections ) Yes , I am employed because you requested us. In Parliament in Cape
communistic inclinations and that is why we feel we cannot support you , especially the mover of this motion who comes from
Town the Leaders of the parties and the Whips have an allowance , and that shows that they have been recognised. You hon. members refuse that because you want to use a "knobkerrie" in the administration
Johannesburg. I was in Johannesburg recently and I met a minister there and he told me about this minister and he said : " That
of the Transkei . Our Leader has just shown us how to govern the country and you actual-
minister causes us much trouble " . (Laughter) As I look at him I think of the words
ly thanked him for it. All I can say is that on our side nobody has been found....(Inter-
of that minister. Mr. Chairman , there is a member who said the people of Qaukeni were forced to vote for special candidates . I was moving around Qaukeni and I was given much respect by both men and women in that part of the country . They were very silent when I came into their presence . (Interjections) I am sorry that what you are saying is not the truth and when we speak about you in this House ....(Interjections) They called public meetings without consulting me first and in certain places they have had these public meetings and that action poisons this motion that you are pleading for. (Interjections) This Government is a very good Government and would
jections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order. Please give chance to the interpreter. CHIEF NDAMASE : In all civilised countries it is proper that there should be an Opposition so that the truth may come out, but you deny the legal status of an Opposition . If you want to have a government similar to Nkrumah's government, then tell us in plain terms. If you want a government similar to the government of Russia , based on dictatorship, then put it in plain terms . When our arguments are too stront for you you refer to us as Communists , whereas you are Communists . (Interjec-
assist the Opposition if the Opposition would co-operate more . It works in harmony with the Republican Govemment and that proves it is a good Government. We are working in harmony with the Basutoland
tions) You are very fond of the name of Ahrenstein · evidence that you and he are companions. All I stood to prove to you is that you want to legislate and rule with a "kierie" . Don't make a noise and bark like little dogs . If you are a Government
Government and the Basutoland people work hand in hand with the Republican Government. Also we work with Malawi. This Government is a very good Government and you are playing the fool on the other side .
desirous to help the people and not one which merely wants to support the status of chiefs , you will support this motion . It is customary that wherever the chiefs go they must have a following of their subjects. It is surprising that you do not want to listen to this side , which has among its members the followers of their own chiefs .
You are just like the Russian people. Many people have had their education in Russia and they would not agree to be with you in any assembly, even the people you like . If you went to a dance in Russia, the Bantu and Coloured people who go to Russia are not admitted to dance with the Russian
I wonder if you are keeping strictly to the custom of chieftainship .
girls , but you maintain you like to share Communi sts . with multi-racialism The
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman , sub-chiefs and chiefs , paramount chiefs , and hon . members , unfortunately this motion has been put forward by the wrong person . You should have allowed Chief Poto or Miss Twetwa to move it. You are leaving it to a person who constantly insults the chiefs and when he moved this motion we put wool into our ears , as he is
Communists will not help you in any way. I mean by this , Mr. Chairman, I do not see any reason why we should waste so much
hon.
time . What I want to say to the Opposition is: Be re-born . I plead with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to co-operate with us . The hon . members from Qaukeni deceive him a great deal. They say that I deport people. It is they who tell the people that.
73.
They say I force the people to accept rehabilitation. It is not so. The hon . member, Mr. Madikizela too. If you change your tactics I am sure the Government will listen
Government.
You
will
notice
that these
provisions are not contained in the Republic Act of South Africa, but are contained in an Act of Parliament which also includes
to you . Show respect to all the members on this side . Behave as Sir de Villiers Graaff
the rules of procedure in Parliament. The Constitution Act of the Republic of South Africa does not specifically provide for the existence of a governing party or an oppo-
in Cape Town behaves and follow in his footsteps . If you behave in that manner we who have power on this side of the House will perhaps in future listen to your demands . Why do you bring this motion forward when the elections are at hand? The hon. member yesterday said you were not to be trusted. If you were in power you would kill him . I have doubts about that. I know our men because I live with them, so be careful , hon . Mr. Guzana.
sition party. It is Act 58 of 1961 which tacitly recognises that there will be two parties , one of which will be the governing party with a leader who is the Prime Minister, and who therefore draws a salary which is higher than that paid to all other members of the House . Then , further, may I observe that the policy of the party which happens to be the Opposition is irrelevant to this arrangement. You have a situation in the British Parliament where you have the
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Don't worry, I will get a bodyguard. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise really to put this matter in its proper perspective. It is , you will all agree , slightly embarrassing to me that I should speak to this motion because if what is sought were to be granted I would be amongst those who would benefit. But my concern is over the fact that matters
Tories and the Labour members changing position , one becoming the Government and one the Opposition and vice versa; but when the Labour party is in power it does not cease to recognise the Conservatives as an Opposition in the sense that the privileges are allowed to an existing body known as the Opposition , just as the . privilege is allowed to an existing body known as the Government, when it has ministers getting more than other members in the Assembly. Let me give you a hypothetical situation where the Government is following a communist policy and the Opposition follows a democratic policy of multi-racialism . If the Opposition becomes the Government, automatically the erstwhile communist Government forms the
irrelevant to the issue have been brought in, to the extent that people may not bring to bear upon this matter a clear mind, and the purpose of this motion is not partisan because, in effect, the motion seeks to have those members of the House who , by reason of their position as members of the House perform certain functions , receive some financial benefit. Some members of the Government side seem to think it is
opposition party, and they become the Opposition irrespective of their political convictions . And they will have a leader , a chief Whip , the assistant Whip who will
only the Leader of the Opposition who is going to draw financial benefit out of this motion if it were accepted. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The minister on that side said so.
qualify for these allowances just as the governing side , having the Chief Minister and the Cabinet Ministers must of necessity
MR. GUZANA: If the mover of this motion did say so, he was merely giving you an example . May I refer members to Act No. 58 of 1961 which was passed by the Republican Government, dealing specifically with, among other things , the matter which is raised by this motion . Sections 1 and 2 of that Act provide for certain allowances to be made to certain members of Parliament who discharge essential
pay more to those individuals , just as they have to pay more to the Chief Whip of the governing party, and the assistant Whip of the Governing party. This Government will realise that the position as it exists now is an unfair one , for the leader of the governing party, by reason of the fact that he is the Chief Minister, is getting a salary distinctively much more than the salary of the members , and you have now the paradoxical situation where the Leader of the Opposition is not getting what he is entitled to by reason of the fact that he is
duties for the smooth running of the party system. Thus the Act provides for a salary for the Prime Minister who is , in fact, the Leader of the Government side . The Act also provides for a salary for the Leader of the Opposition which is lower than that of the Leader of the Government side because he is both leader and Prime Minister.
the Leader of the Opposition . This is not a matter of party political division because , if the shoe pinches the Opposition today, it may well be shoe you will have to fit your foot into tomorrow. (Laughter) We want the matter to be viewed objectively on the basis of justice having to be done to members of the Assembly who are rendering services to the Assembly by occupying the positions that the Leader of the Opposition, the chief Whips of both parties , the assistant Whips of both parties occupy to facilitate legislation . I have tried scrupulously not to refer to the irrelevancies and
The same Act provides for a special salary for the chief Whips of both parties . The Act also goes on to provide for a special allowance for the assistant Whips of both parties . The idea is to make remunerative compensation to those members of Parliament who have been given extra duties to perform in order to make for the smooth running of the democratic system of the
74.
the insults that have been hurled across the floor on this non-controversial issue .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Then you will lose this privilege if you elect men like Mpondo .
MR. CANCA: What about your members? GUZANA:
MR.
you
CHAIRMAN : THE Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, in view of the time this motion will come up for discussion again on Monday . Before the House rises , I have a certain announcement to make . Hon . members are requested to remain inside the Assembly in order to get their pay.
The debate was adjourned .
of Qaukeni loves me and I shall always indulge him and not rub him the wrong way, but the position has not been made clear by the members of the House . I wish that we would discuss it now objectively as it has been placed before you in my attempt to explain it. I have sought to indicate that this is done in the Republican Parliament under this Act. The 1961 Act was passed because the Union of South Africa became a republic and therefore legislation was passed so that these provisions should became part of the law of the Republic . OF
trouble is
confuse principles with personalities . Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I think I have put the matter very clearly before the House and I think the Government will see the sense of this motion .
MR. GUZANA: Well , you may have an ugly-looking cow and a very nice- looking cow but they both produce good milk , and when you add your milk to your cup of tea you don't ask that the description of the cow which gave the milk should be brought before you , and if I need say so , the hon . Rev. B.S. Rajuili , being a multi -racialist, would be the first to find out that an injustice is being done and therefore be the first to draw our minds to such an injustice with a view to its being corrected. I am sure the members of the Government do realise how much the Paramount Chief
THE MINISTER What was the Act?
The
The Assembly adjourned until 11 on Monday , 1st May , 1967.
a.m.
MONDAY , 1ST MAY, 1967 .
The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
Prayers were read. ANNOUNCEMENT.
AGRICULTURE :
paramount Hon. CHAIRMAN : THE chiefs and hon. members , it has become apparent that certain members are becoming very lax in their attendance at this Assembly. Certain members attend here for only 30 to 40 minutes a day and expect to be paid sessional allowances for the whole day. • We have now decided that unless a member is here for at least three hours he
MR . GUZANA: I cannot quote the specific Act, but I know it was published under the Act relating to rules of procedure . In the British Parliament the evolutionary process went on until there was an enactment embodying these special allowances to those members who were performing essential functions for consultative purposes between the Government and the
will not be paid for the day.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
Opposition . You see , I have put the matter objectively today because I have received no irritation from the Government. (Laughter)
ANNOUNCEMENT. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the searching nature of Question No. 23 , due to be replied to on Tuesday , 2nd May , and in view of the fact that some of the required information is , up to date , not yet available , I crave the indulgence of the House to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And if the Whips are to be paid extra remuneration I think the parties should be very wise in their choice . MR . GUZANA : You can leave that to the wisdom of the parties to choose wisely . This side of the House would never poke its nose into your administrative affairs as a party , and if you decide , for instance , to nominate or elect the hon. Mr. Sineke as your Chief Whip , you have yourselves to thank . We cannot tell you to appoint anybody else because you , as a party , have decided that he can keep you together.
announce that this question will be replied to on Tuesday , 9th May. OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF OPPOSITION . The debate was resumed . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to speak on this motion and I wish to appeal to the House to listen to me very carefully and I will be as little aggressive as pos-
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I agree with you . MR. GUZANA: And so are we entitled choose to our own Whip and ask you to keep your no se out of that. (Laughter )
sible, taking that from the example given by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who was the last speaker on Friday, which
75.
I will ask the other members on his side , his satellites , to follow. (Laughter) I must commend him very seriously and really hope
type of people you are on that side . You get the plums but then you don't admit that they are of any benefit to you , and when you go out in the country the funniest part of it is that all the good things done by the Government in improving the condition of the people in the Transkei you claim that you have instigated because you cannot have ...
that a new era will be opened in the discussions of this House. I do not agree with him in all the questions that he put before the House as you will see in the course of my discussion , particularly where he says the policy is irrelevant to the issue , because I take it that an Opposition or any
MR.
party at all must stand for a policy and it is not the name that matters , not the epithet "Opposition" or "Official Opposition". That does not matter. The matter of the name just reminds me of the great lixicographer, Johnson , Dr. where he defined a spade as a spade , just as you know it, but when called upon to give a more distinctive definition of a spade he said it was an ordinary burrowing instrument of manual industry , but the point remains that it is a spade . That is why I want to impress on the minds of the Opposition , whether they are official or non-official , they must rest satisfied that the y remain an Opposition. One thing also I would like to bring to the attention of the Leader of the Opposition, quoting again from Dr. Johnson , with reference to the benefits that they derive from this Government which they despise. They have just got a 25 per cent rise in their salaries ; they have just had the benefit of zoning · in fact, I cannot catalogue all the benefits they have received. I quote zoning because they were totally opposed to it. Their chiefs on the other side have benefited from the rise in
GUZANA:
Don't use
the
word
"instigate" in that sense . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well, initiated by you. You, of course , grew up with the White man while I grew up with the Pondos. (Laughter) Now, referring to my hon. friend , the ex-teacher, Mr. Dumalisile , who unlike the others was not expelled from school (because most of them have been expelled for some misbehaviour or other) he referred to the contemplated industrial complex at Butterworth as being a shanty. Your chief fault is that you do not investigate things before you speak about them. Now the members must know that he was referring to a shed which was built for a decorticating machine, because he has no idea of what a factory should be, and he thought that was a factory that had been put up by the Xhosa Development Corporation. MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I rise on a point of order. The hon . Minister is wide off the point of the subject. With respect, Sir, are we called upon to listen to his aberrations which are not related at all to the motion before the House .
their wages while they are opposed to chieftain ship, and my hon . friend, Chief D.D.P. , was the instigator of the clause in the Constitution that whatever constitution
THE CHAIRMAN: Never mind, member. He is wasting his own time .
was drawn up in this House by the then T.T.A. it had to make provision for entrenching chieftain ship.
hon.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition seems restless when I quote the behaviour of his men. What I am aiming at is to show the incompetence of the members of the Opposition . I am still going to show other incompetence , but you must realise that an Opposition , to be effective , must be constructive .
MR. GUZANA: What has this got to do with the motion? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am just commenting on that. Now, the mover of the motion referred to the institution which has to be retained as a "chunk of tyrants" on this side . He means the chiefs are a group of tyrants .
MR . RAJUILI : Three of your members have said that.
MR. RAJUILI : No , I referred to your Cabinet. The chiefs are not the Government.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What can you quote where you have at any time helped the Government? I will pause because my heart is there . Can they quote one example?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, to return to Dr. Johnson , when I referred to these instances , this famous doctor de fined oats as "food good for
MR . GUZANA: Hansard.
hogs" and food , perhaps for Scotsmen, and one morning somebody gave him a dish of oats . He was an important guest there and he was noted for his voracious appetite . He took so much interest in this dish , not knowing it was oats and his friend asked him how he liked the dish. He said it was very, very good , but this dish was the very same dish which he said was good only for hogs. (Laughter) And that is just the
You do not read your
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now the Opposition of the Republic and the lone figure of Mrs. Suzman and the Liberals that were wiped out of the House the y agree on one principle. It is to build South Africa and to make a home for both White and Black.
76 .
MR. RAJUILI : And what do you say?
...when the Leader of the Opposition will show some co- operation , when he will have. purged his party, and when you will cooperate in the development of the Transkei . I say that you are Communists because
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And they agree on the rehabilitation of the Reserves , as they are called , and development of any kind in the Reserves .
your actions reveal you as such. Communists kill anybody who will obstruct their
MR. RAJUILI: With White capital . Do you accept that?
diabolical policy and you have been quoted , some of you, as being involved in these
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : of course the Xhosa Development
killings. Why are all these people on the other side? To whom can you point on this side? Is there anybody like the hon . Mr. Luwaca on this side?
Yes ,
Corporation is White capital. Don't you know that? But what do you do in that respect? You defy the Xhosa Development Corporation's efforts and you look to Rhodesia or Messina or Matabeleland for help and even across the ocean to Russia. I
THE
(Laughter) because , as I say , it is what you say and not the name that matters , and your actions are such that we have no alternative but to call you Communists. I will just quote one instance which is really true , when Nogcantsi , who is a member of your party , visited Chief D.D.P. at his
MINISTER THE General Smuts .
hon.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, if he said so no one has ever disputed it, so you are Communists and we can never recognise a communist Opposition.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Your leader does , but you do not.
MR . DANA: " The leader of the largest the opposition party is recognised as official Leader of the Opposition and he , together with certain senior members of his party are some times referred to as a shadow cabinet'......
by your resolution which you will twist to your favour. It will be done by the Government when the Leader of the Opposition (I am sorry he is going out because I have only two minutes left) ...
THE
MINISTER
EDUCATION :
legislative ...."
Now, Sir, I will come to your policy after I have exposed these weaknesses of the would-be Opposition . The time will come certainly by evolution , when you have purged your party of these people, when the Government might consider the terms of the resolution before the House and that will not be tomorrow and it will not come
had
OF
more than one opposition party the largest of such parties is recognised as the official Opposition . The Opposition plays a very important part in Parliament and as such can criticize the Govemment and debate
THE CHAIRMAN : You have five minutes more .
have
up .
is the Secretary of the House of Assembly . It was written in 1962 by Mr. MacFarland . "The Opposition in Parliament is the minority group or groups of members who do not support the Government. If there is
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I am wasting my own time , I know, (Laughter) and if you give me ten minutes I will be satisfied .
I
is
MR. DANA: ....and I would like the hon . Minister to make his own quotation for I have read this one . Mr. Chaiman, I will quote from an official document here . This book was printed by order of the Speaker of the House of Assembly of the Republic of South Africa . The writer of this book
court. It was day time and he was going with a White gentleman and when he introduced this gentleman he said : " This is our (note the pronoun) - our Communist friend."
GUZANA:
time
he claimed that the Opposition would not get recognition because of rebellious acts . He calls us murderers and went as far as to mention Grahamstown . Mr. Chairman , I will quote one of the greatest, if not the greatest South African authority on parliamentary procedure ....
Opposition which must be constructive and think of the people . Now when you say you do not want any more land, what is your policy? You are related to Communists
MR.
Your
MR. G.S. DANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , last week the hon. the Minister of Education made a speech opposing this motion . I expected that we should get a good speech from the Minister of Education because he is well read, but his speech was disappointing. I can say that the hon . Minister has misled the other side because
will tell you why I say so , because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , if he was not misquoted , said : "We do not want any more land in the Transkei because we have all the land in the Republic" · which is wishful thinking. We want a realistic
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , member, please stick to the motion.
CHAIRMAN :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : With you as Minister of Quotations . (Laughter) MR. DANA: -...and should be ready to assume office in the event of a change of government." Now, Mr. Chairman , I shall ask the hon. the Chief Minister....
enough .
OF AGRICULTURE :
77.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are misquoting. The Opposition is allowed for in the Republican Government but not, in the
is correct. know....
He said "killers " . I want to
Transkei Constitution . You cannot put the cart before the horse .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Say your point of order. Don't ask questions . (Interjections)
MR . DANA: The Foreign Minister of the Republic , when he was addressing the United Nations in New York, said the
THE CHAIRMAN : This is no time for questions now.
people in the Transkei have a parliament (Interjecparliamentary opposition . and that recall tions) Mr. Chairman, you will Parliament was established in 1910 and
CHIEF MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman , I would like the Goverment to try and expedite the building of a mental hospital near Umtata. (Laughter) That is all I wish to say.
the head of that Parliament was the King and the Government was the King , the Senate and the Legislative Assembly . That was the form of govemment which was called the Union of South Africa . In 1912 , General Hertzog and others formed the Nationalist Party. From the beginning they started campaigning for a republican form of government. I have never heard any White man in South Africa saying that
THE CHAIRMAN : I think there has been enough discussion on this motion and I will now call upon the mover of the motion to reply . MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is unfortunate that every time we place a matter before this House people will choose to say things that have nothing whatever to do with what is on the table at the time . May I remove a few misleading things said by some people here to distort the who deliberately wanted motion . They talked about spades - some
General Hertzog was a rebel. You only find a rebel here in the Transkei . (Interjections) It was in 1964 , I think, at the Great Place at Qamata when the hon. the Chief Minister made a speech on the occasion of celebrating his appointment as Chief · Minister. He said then that in five years there would be only one political party in the Transkei . (Interjections) I was sur-
Minister of State here. (Laughter) It is a pity that there are other people present when a Minister of State talks such nonsense about spades. The hon . the Minister of Agriculture talked about spades here and forgot to say that a spade is that instrument which will dig his grave . Spades are not required in a motion of such importance . They talk of Rhodesia and say we are looking to Rhodesia , but people in Rhodesia are too confused for anyone to look to them now. The hon. the Minister of Education
prised when I heard such a statement from the Chief Minister. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you wasting your time also?
MR . DANA: I wondered whether the hon. the Chief Minister was suffering from the political fever suffered by the northern African states · those who want only a one-party government. (Laughter) This is the outcome. You must have a democratic form of government. The hon. the Minister of Education and the Chief Minister and
made a shocking remark for the honour that he has been given to lead the Transkei , and particularly having been given such a responsibility as the education of our children , and I am very sorry he is out at this moment. No , here he is now .
the Minister of Agriculture are all trying to prove to the world that the Black man is of maintaining a democratic incapable form of government .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Talk of the Devil.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not in the Constitution. Abandon your multi-racial MR. RAJUILI : Well , his colleague says he is a Devil. I did not say so . (Laughter) Now, I was saying that a Minister of Education , a gentleman whom I used to take as Christian , has often howled in this House that this side are Communists and all sorts
principles first.
CHIEF J. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in his speech the last speaker said the hon . the Minister of Education had insulted them by saying they were murderers . It will be noted that times change . I do not know whether he is under the impression that things that happened in 1910 can still apply today. I think the hon . the Minister
of things relating to Communism. Well , Sir, we do not know what the Communists are or what Communism is, but it is said that among other things they do not believe
of Education forgot to mention one point in this connection . He forgot to tell you that you are men-killers and he forgot to say that you should all be taken and thrown in the Umtata River.
in the existence of God. So up to now I doubt very much whether we can take the Minister of Education as a Christian . This is what he says (I quote him) : " Some time last year I told this House about how God
MR. L.A. LUWACA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I would like to know if the interpretation given by the interpreter
in his wisdom created an opposition in the person of Satan. " A Christian worthy of being a Christian to have said words like this! You could never get a better Commu-
78.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Just strike off from your p dicies that it will be a multiracial country , then we will accept you as an Opposition .
nist. (Laughter) He is guilty of sacrilege because God could never create evil . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Who created Satan?
MR. RAJUILI : You are nobody to lay down the conditions for us . This Government is trying to request the Republican Government to do certain things for them and add
MR. RAJUILI: I go on. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition and other members on this side have tried to show this irresponsible chunk of Ministers ( and note that the other members and the chiefs are not included in this - it is the Ministers who are a chunk) ... Now govemments rise and fall and when Nkrumah was at the height of his power he set himself up as Christ and a redeemer , but I have often warned you you are not in Ghana here and some of these members , as long as they get into the position of state leadership forget that God can never create evil. They forget who they are - this power-drunkenness of this unfortunate chunk of Ministers . However , in a democratic system of government, what is the Government today may be the Opposition the following day.
more responsible departments. One of the things the Republican Government realises it cannot do is to add any departments of state when they have not showed responsibility in the six already allowed them . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Did you hear what the Prime Minister said when he opened the Assembly?
MR. RAJUILI: You are like a child who does not expect the father to give the other children anything, but just to give him more than he requires . The Goverment is watching you to see whether you can take responsibility for these departments of state. Communism and all the nonsense
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It will never be . You will see when we go to the elections next year .
they have been talking about has nothing to do with the motion as it is , so we feel that our advocacy in canvassing this motion has made them realise it is the right thing to do . We move accordingly , Mr. Chairman .
MR . RAJUILI: When we were busy with the elections , this is what Chief Kaiser Matan zima, now Chief Minister of the
THE CHAIRMAN : I will now put the question.
Transkei , said to the country . He said that if he failed to become Chief Minister of the Transkei he would form an Opposition.
The amendment by the hon . the Minister of Education was carried by 48 votes to 32 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : To defend the Transkei Constitution against the rebels .
The motion as amended was put and carried by 49 votes to 32 .
MR. RAJUILI : Can you deny that? Now I want you to listen, because you always want to vote against your consciences. I want him to understand that he was
THE CHAIRMAN : We Motion No. 35 .
quite right.
shall please the hon . the Minister of Agriculture more because my attention has been drawn to the reports of Hansard from the 5th May to the 9th June , 1964 , page 245 , when I moved substantially the same motion as is now before this House and , in terms of rule 38 ( 1 ) I wish to withdraw that motion . I think that is the probable procedure to be followed when motions are withdrawn from the House .
MR.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I told you I was going to be Chief Minister.
MR. RAJUILI : And now that he is in the Government he is trying to say that the Opposition should not be. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not at all. We shall accept an Opposition provided you act within the Constitution . MR.
RAJUILI :
They
would
like
GUZANA:
Mr. Chairman, I
THE CHIEF MINISTER: AGreed.
a
MR . GUZANA: No , it must be put to my seconder.
dummy Opposition who will bow down to their nonsense .
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
K.M.
shall go on to
THE agree?
To the Con-
CHAIRMAN :
Does the seconder
stitution . MR . N. JAFTA : I agree , Mr. Chairman .
in
MR. RAJUILI: I tried to show that even customary African administration the
Agreed to .
opinion of the Opposition was always provided for. Here , Sir, we are not asking anything for our persons in this House at the moment. We are in the middle of evolution of this Govemment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, before the hon. member, Mr. Sinaba, puts his motion I just want to tell the House that he has requested that in view of the
79.
absence of his sole supporter this motion be postponed till next week, and I move that as we would like to wallop the hon . member this motion be postponed till next week.
we hope they are the benevolent parents of the people of the Transkei . We have been told by the representatives of that Government, in the speech from the throne , that we need not look anywhere else for financial assistance for the Transkei . The Govern-
THE CHAIRMAN: I notice that according to the order paper we should now go into committee of supply, but according to the order paper that has been set aside for tomorrow, so we shall now take Item 2 .
ment of South Africa is there and will help us. I think we can bear witness that the Republican Govemment is a rich Goverment and to that richness the Africans have made valuable contributions . It does not sound very logical to bring a beast worth R120 and ask a person who hardly has R2 in his house to buy that beast. We hope the Republican Government are very sincere in seeing that what they say to the people of the Transkei will take place . As benevolent fathers of this Goverment they know that their children in the Transkei
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , is Item 22 postponed till next week? THE seconder?
CHAIRMAN :
Have
you
got
a
MR. C.S. MDA: I second, Mr. Chairman .
have no money, no matter how much they would like to own these properties . We would not like to feel that the zoning proclamation of the Republican Government, in trying to entice the people of the Transkei , was something like the Trojan wooden
Agreed to. SUBSIDY ON PURCHASE OF PROPERTIES BY AFRICANS. MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :
horse. During the time that we have no money to buy these properties , where does the interest on this business go to? Who really will be owning these properties ? Is it the people of the Transkei or the Government of the Transkei? It is not the people , mark you, neither is it the Government of the Transkei . In fact what should have been
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to extend a 75% subsidy to those Africans who purchase properties in the residential and business centres in terms
done is that portion of these zoned villages should have been handed over free of charge to the poor people of the Transkei . That
of the Zoning Proclamation applicable to the towns and villages in the Transkei . "
might have given an infinitesimal square inch of land to the people of the Transkei . There is nothing to show the development in such a manner that the economy of the Transkei will be so improved that the people will be enabled to buy these properties . What is the object then of putting these properties within reach of the people if they are not likely to be able to buy them for generations? The people of the Transkei
We are well aware , Mr. Chairman , that some people would like to avail themselves of the opportunity to acquire these properties . We are aware too that while these chances were given to the people , and I dare say the Government of the Republic themselves are aware that the people do not have the money to buy these properties . Attempts have been made by this Government, particularly in the Transkei , to try to interest people in the larger urban areas to buy these properties so that they could see to some extent the implementation of this policy. I am reminded of one medical practitioner who came down like a hawk from the cliff to the Transkei and he made headlines in the Press · so much so that we
should have every opportunity to develop in their line . Where the property, for instance , would be worth R4,000 we think the Government should subsidise 75 per cent and then the poor African who is tied down here under influx control and pass laws would be able to get somewhere . (Interjections) Then at least the African may struggle to find the 25 per cent of the cost. Even with that very many of our people in the Transkei will not be able to meet in
thought that Norwood , Umtata, was almost as big and important as Norwood, Johannesburg. Now it is not everybody who may have money , as perhaps in the case of some
their lifetime even that 25 per cent. Perhaps if people were allowed to sell their labour
medical practitioners . We hear of the Bantu Investment Corporation which is supposed to assist the people of the Transkei in buying these properties . We are even told that they buy where there are no African buyers coming forward to buy these properties . Our fears are that it looks as if the
in the market of their choice , as they did before the tightening up of influx control , things would not have been as bad as they are now. It is for those reasons that we would like the Government of the Republic of South Africa to meet us and fulfil the
Bantu Investment Corporation is going to buy the whole of the Transkei one day under the guise of buying it for our children . Now our children's children may still not have money to buy any of these properties in the Transkei. As I say , the Republican Government have been referred to here and
promise given to the people of the Transkei and make some people who would like to avail themselves of this opportunity able to buy these properties .
MR .
80 .
K.G.
NOTA:
Mr.
Chairman ,
I
second the motion .
motions springing up like a lot of mushrooms after a storm. The hon . member has made no intimation whatsoever as to whether
The debate was adjourned .
the money earmarked and in the keeping of the B.I.C. has been fully exploited. He states that his desire is that 75 per cent of the purchase price be subsidised by the Government, alleging that the people have. no money . Now let us take a hypothetical case . Supposing the price of a property is R20,000, it means the Government will subsidise R15,000 . Where does the hon .
THE CHAIRMAN : Before we adjourn I would like to impress it upon the Whips of both sides to see to it that the members do attend, otherwise I shall be compelled to call the roll . AFTERNOON SESSION . The
Assembly
resumed
at
2.15 p.m.
member across the floor expect the wouldbe buyer to get the remainder of R5,000. if his calcualtion is correct? I think his is
THE CHAIRMAN : I think, hon . members , that we have now reached the stage when I must do my duty. I think the doors should be closed so that whoever is outside should not be admitted and we shall call the roll . Those members who are absent will not be paid today .
a case of running from the frying-pan to the fire. He would like to solve a difficulty by providing another difficulty. When these people seek assistance from the Bantu Investment Corporation they need not pay anything in advance . If they buy a business , for instance , and seek the assistance of the BIC they are fisrt trained in the management of the business and when they have acquired the necessary experience the business is handed over to them, and from the proceeds thereof they pay the purchase price . I do not know whether what was in the mind of the hon . member was to have both the Bantu Investment Corporation and the subsidisation at the same time. There is provision too for loans to the residents and he can pay the rent from his salary . (Interjections) I do not need to reply to ignorant howlers , especially one who sounds as if he has a big potato in his mouth. (Laughter) The thing is it may not be possible to have it both ways . You have this and you ask for the other, like a child who , before he has even eaten all his food, says he wants more . As I said, there is 7 hardly anything to say in this motion because there is nothing in it. It is only that my hon . friend from Maluti is trying to devise ways and means of coming back to this House after 1968. I doubt if these stunts are going to help .
The roll was called . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , on a point of explanation , the hon . Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo asked me to advise the House that he is unwell this afternoon. Further, Mr. Chairman, I wonder what the position of the Chief Whip of the House becomes when .... THE CHAIRMAN: Why did Chief Ngadlela tell you and not the Whip? Are you the Whip? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Whip is away . SUBSIDY ON PURCHASE OF PROPERTIES BY AFRICANS. The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move an amendment to the motion moved by the hon . member for Maluti , Mr. B.S. Rajuili , that all the words after the word "Assembly" should be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: " citizens
acquiring
properties
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Whilst you are on your feet I want to ask a question . THE MINISTER move, Mr. Chairman .
in
reserved areas should, in case of financial problems, approach the Bantu Investment Corporation for assistance and that there is no need, and neither would it be fair and reasonable , to approach the Republican Government for assistance such as the mover of the motion has in mind . "
OF
EDUCATION :
I
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the motion seeks to establish an ade available to the avenue of help to be made African who seeks to buy property. It does not seek to exclude the BIC which is almost the financial juggernaut, as it were , in the Transkei . The idea is to break the monopoly which the BIC enjoys over property deals involving the transfer of ownership of property from Whites to Africans . Before the BIC became a buying body in the Transkei and before zoning was introduced by a Government that is looking at things myopically, the Africans had many sources from which he could draw financial aid when he sought to buy property ..
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the is self- explanatory, and there any need for me to expatiate do feel that the mover of this been actuated by a desire , or a desperate bid, for cheap political popularity . We know that 1968 is round the corner and hon . members are beginning to search themselves and wondering whether they will ever see this House at the expiration of 1968 , and therefore we see a lot of
amendment is hardly thereon. I motion has
81.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where was it available , because there were no properties to be purchased before the proclamation?
prospective GUZANA: Those MR . buyers could go to a private individual and raise a loan and have a bond registered over their properties , and I must say that in most cases they went to White financiers to raise these loans. (Interjections) They could also approach the financially strong building societies which made loans avail-
MR. GUZANA: I need to drive you one and a half miles out of town to show you that properties have been available for purchase by Africans for the last forty years or more . However, where ignorance is bliss ' tis folly to be wise.
able to Africans. These avenues assisted the African in owning property at a time when the Republican Government did very little to assist the African to acquire property. In fact, this sector of investment was open to private enterprise , rather than that the Government should have a finger in the pie, as it were . (Interjections) What is the position which obtained as soon as the zoning proclamation came into force? Building societies which were associations controlled by the White sector of the community, and White investors who had cash to spare to assist in these loans , were precluded from making loans available to Africans to enable them to buy properties unless permission is granted by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: not true.
No ,
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , we know about Ncambedlana. It is your submission that only Ncambedlana should be owned by Africans , not the whole Transkei . MR. GUZANA: Properties in Idutywa, properties in Butterworth were owned by Africans even before the zoning proclamation . THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
They
were
being chased out in tems of the Group Areas Act . MR . GUZANA: Even if they were , they owned the property . Now you have closed , by reason of this proclamation , a source of financial assistance to the African which was available....
that is
THE CHIEF Ncambedlana only.
MR. GUZANA: You bring the zoning proclamation along and I will show you .
MINISTER:
Where?
In
MR. GUZANA: .... and private investment is cut down to a minimum in fact to nil · in properties owned by Africans . There
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the transfer of property of a White person that is disallowed.
is also the other position working in reverse, to the disadvantage of the African , arising from this prescription. A man may own property valued at R5,000 and there may become available on the market immovable property for a cash sale for R2,000 . Before the zoning proclamation came into being the owner of R5,000 worth of property could go to a building society and get a loan of R2,000 to enable him to acquire the new property ....
MR. GUZANA: Bring the proclamation and I will show you . The position has therefore arisen whereby a building society a has been willing to advance a loan , private financier has the amount available to make a loan available to an African , and the individual who seeks to acquire property has applied for a permit from the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, and this permit has not been granted. The legal position ....
THE
CHIEF
MINISTER:
Where
was
that property going to be? THE CHIEF MINISTER: A permit to have the property bonded , isn't it?
MR.
GUZANA:
..and there would be
a bond passed over his R5,000 property to secure the loan of R2,000 . (Interjections) Now here we find that the zoning proclamation has excluded the African from those avenues of help originally
MR. GUZANA: The legal position is that no White person or corporation with White controlling interest can have a proprietary interest in property belonging to an African .
available to him . I mitht point our further that in financial deals time is of the THE CHIEF MINISTER: That's right . Do you quarrel with that?
MR.
GUZANA:
Therefore
essence . If a man seeks to sell his property for cash , he wants to get his cash immediately , or a bank guarantee , but now one has to wait from six to twelve months for a permit made available to him for a bond
a bond in
favour of a White , whether it be an individual or corporate body , cannot have the bond registered over that property to secure the loan without the permission of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. In effect, therefore , this source of financial assistance which was available
to be passed over his property . I would further ask the question as to how many people have been helped by the BIC to buy residences . The position is that whilst the BIC is held out as a benevolent financier, it is in fact very chary of making loans available for the buying of private residences .
to the African before the zoning proclamation was promulgated has dried up . 82.
There is only
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It has to be careful of crooks .
in financial circles . It is exploitation . (Interjections) Now this sort of thing has a reason because of the ་ zoning proclamation , and the motion merely seeks to open up another avenue of capital which will be flowing into the Transkei to assist the African to buy the properties in the zoned
MR. GUZANA: It has to be careful when dealing with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , who is so unreliable . (Laughter) But the private financier and the building society take care to make sure that the investment was secure while the BIC holds up a transaction for a year or two years before it makes the loan available , if ever it does , and where is the property then? I want to make clear also another factor related to this matter. The hon . the Chief
areas about which you preen yyourself. My own impression is that the zoned areas , financially speaking, are just white elephants . In five years ' time you will find that those who have sought to buy properties in zoned areas with the assistance of the BIC are worse off financially than they are today, and this monopolistic policy of the BIC is not healthy . Now it has got an appendage , the Xhosa Development Corporation, and all appendages , like appendices , are troublesome things which need to be removed in an appendectomy operation .
Minister seems to preen himself over the fact that Norwood is zoned Black and Africans can buy property there , but let me tell you what happens with Africans who want to buy property there . THE CHIEF MINISTER: not want that .
on nee word for that sort of thing
But you did
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But what is to stop you from starting building societies?
MR . GUZANA: The African goes to the BIC and makes application for a loan . The BIC sits on this application for a year or two. In the meantime the prospective buyer has taken occupation of the premises and pays rental to the registered owner of the property .
MR. GUZANA: Let me answer your question. You ask me what is to stop me from starting a building society. Were I to establish a building society today, would I be in a position to loan out thousands of rand to Africans in the Transkei next week or next month or in ten years from now? Building societies which are able to make these advances have been in existence for 50 years , 100 years, before they are financially strong enough to make those loans
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Under your policy you could not even rent the property . MR . GUZANA: The result is that after paying rental for a year or two on the property , the capital which he would have
available , so if I start a building society now it is not going to help the situation .
deposited on the proposed loan has been eaten up by the rental he has had to pay , so that when the BIC in its own good time decides to make the loan available the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: you start one ten years ago?
prospective buyer has had his capital reduced almost to nothing by the rental he has been paying, whilst the BIC has been sitting watching him going down financially . And so when the deal goes through the BIC has to finance this prospective buyer 100 per cent instead of 50 per cent. The amount in interest is double now what he would have paid had the deal gone through at the time when the man had 50 per cent
Why
didn't
MR . GUZANA: When my brother started the Prosperity Insurance Company it was a struggle and now it has swallowed him up, so when an African starts something there is this prowling tiger lying in wait for him, and just about when he is edible it gobbles him up. (Laughter) What are you going to do about a situation like that? You cannot
of the purchase price of this property. One
even justify the taking over of the Prosperity Insurance Company by this giant.
gets the impression that the BIC wants to see the individual ruined financially before it comes in to assist him .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They applied for assistance .
THE MINISTER That is unfair.
OF
AGRICULTURE :
MR. GUZANA : They were in difficulties because , being an African endeavour, they could not open up offices in urban areas so their economic enterprise was limited . The motive behind this motion is to establish other avenues of assistance to the
MR. GUZANA: It is most unfair indeed , so this man who would have paid back the loan in 15 years has to pay back for 30 years , and pays twice the amount he would have paid in interest. THE CHIEF MINISTER : you start a building society?
African who seeks to buy property , and that is all .
can't
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You think governments are charitable organisations .
MR. GUZANA: One gets the impression that the BIC delights in helping the very,
MR. GUZANA: I think this one has been. It has carried six solid , fat men for four years and they have done nothing. (Laughter) I do not know probably diabetes
Why
very poor but will not lend a helping hand to those who want to lift themselves up .
83 .
has been instituted to help people with financial aid. I second the suggestion that we should approach the BIC for financial assistance , and not run around after shadows. I think the intention of the mover is just to say that our Government is unable to help them buy properties . Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
and high blood pressure have a lot of ground to explore here . Mr. Chairman and hon . members , that is the purpose of the motion . Don't let us lose sight of that. It is to try and get capital to flow into the Transkei and help the Africans buy property here . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want first of all to reply to the hon . member and remind him that in the Parliament in Cape Town, to which he is so eager to go, there was a member who was reported to have
MR . K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in supporting this motion I will request the House first to look into the question relating to the economy of the Transkei . The people of the Transkei , Government servants included , do not get sufficient remuneration for their services .
only once opened his mouth to speak , and that was to say: "Who opened that door and let in this cold draught?" (Laughter) Of the hon. member who has just recently been elected it is reported that he is a dumb person and it has been suggested that he should not worry himself as he has been told that the hon . Mr. Guzana does all the talking. In regard to the motion I find it empty. It is not clear whether the intention
Similarly , people who make efforts to open up businesses find it very difficult to make a living on account of the regulations of the Government. We are all aware that the African people are remunerated as Africans . That means that their salaries are lower than that of the Europeans and when the African people are invited to buy properties previously owned by Europeans it becomes quite clear that they have not enough money to do so . The motion seeks therefore to
is to ask for a gift or a loan. Secondly , this motion comes from a member of a party which has been opposed to zoning , and now that zoning is in progress he suggests that the Government should make us a grant. Now how manypeople do get what he is asking for in the motion? When we ask for financial
say that if zoning has come to stay , the Republican Govemment should assist to the extent of 75 per cent of the purchase price.
assistance from the Republican Government we must remember that the taxpayers belong to the Government. Will they put up with the situation that we get financial assistance from the Bantu Investment Corporation as well as from the Government? The hon . Insurance member said the Prosperity Company went down because they could not get offices in urban areas . If the policy of multi-racialism suggested by the other side were to succeed , where would they get the money from?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What can the Government do? It is for the development of the Transkei as a whole . MR . NOTA: It is proper that the Republican Government should advance us money because we are taxpayers . Let me remind you of what you said once in this Assembly, when you said the Transkei people would not have to pay higher taxes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : For this year.
MR . GUZANA: societies . THE
MINISTER
From
OF
the
building
JUSTICE :
MR . NOTA: This year we have paid our taxes , but the price of sugar has gone up . One year the price of brandy went up because of the increase in taxes in Cape Town. Everything seems to be going up in price , even the price of tobacco. Now let us return to the motion . If we were to think that the Bantu Investment Corporation is the body to advance loans to the people , it is clear that after a few years the whole of the Transkei would be the property of the Bantu Investment Corporation . It is a body initiated by the Republican Government. That means that finally the Transkei will become the property of that Corporation whose directors and administrators are in
How
many people have been helped by loans from the building societies , apart from those at Ncambedlana? (Interjections ) My hon. friend comes from Soweto . What is to stop him from asking for financial assistance to enable them to put up houses ? MR. GUZANA: They did that in Alexandra and in Lady Selborne . (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I once owned property myself in an urban area and I wanted to sell it to my friend across there , but the Group Areas Act came to turn people out of the towns . ( Interjections)
Pretoria. Would you appeal to the Bantu Investment Corporation , Sir, and ask if we could buy shares and invest money in the company?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You can. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There are some of our people who own businesses outside and who own trading sites . Will they agree to your suggestion that they get this assistance of 75 per cent? There is a Bantu Investment Corporation which
MR. NOTA: Further, we should be admitted as directors in the corporation . I put that as a question and I would just want to make sure that I can be a director and investor in that corporation .
84.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can.st
money
MR. NOTA: And if in the zoned areas there are properties which have been bought and are now the property of the people I will be very pleased. The reason is because the people have no money , Here is something else that the BIC does . It purports to train people in business and to make them managers. These managers receive R10 per month as wages and that is what these
is
given
to
them.
(Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. din m THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What happens iss that a person with a business , when he hears there is a beast for sale , goes and buys that beast even tthough ne monster his turnover is small , and then the comes and swallows him.
et 184 mal bainsa GUZANA: It is nice to hear a member of the Government describing the 9300 BIC as a monster. (Laughter) MR.
people who are supposed to buy property e arn. If I were to be trained by the Bantu Investment Corporation it would not be enough for me to receive a salary of R10 . Let us all support this motion that the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I
people get the 75 per cent suggested, so that the BIC need only meet the 25 per cent .
think the members are running away from this. You are always making a noise , telling the House that you want White capital because you are never content if you do
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to hit the last nail into the coffin of this
not say anything nice about the Europeans . I am pointing out that the Bantu Investment White capital. You Corporation offers might be understood if you complained about the interest, but I do not know where you will go for less interest. Perhaps you believe that White capital is money that flows from Russia or China. I want to say that nobody will ever give you money when he places no reliance on you, or where you cannot raise the necessary security. As far as my knowledge goes , no one has com-
motion which we are about to bury , because the longer I consider this motion the more it stinks . The mentality of the Bantu people is that they always expect to be given something. Just imagine the hon. member expecting a loan of 75 per cent. MR . GUZANA: It is not a loan. It is a subsidy . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Call it a spade or an instrument for digging. What has this person done to merit this subsidy? Up to now there are so few properties that have been purchased . How can you ask for money from the Government? I think I have already said this motion stinks and the sooner we bury it the better. In any case , who is the man who has introduced this motion? I ask that because when we
plained , except my hon. friend across the floor whose complaint , of course , is imagination. I ask once more that the people should be encouraged to stand on their own feet. (Interjections) The BIC will eventually lend you the money . (Interjections) You should join us because you are a man who speaks properly . It does not matter how many financial sources there are , if you have no initiative those sources will be useless . (Interjections) You should come to this side and not worry about the people on the other side. I ask you with all respect
were campaigning in the country we never heard any such remark . Just because you people do not tell the people what rights. they have under this Government, the people did not know that there has been zoning in towns . They did not know either that some of these towns were not partially zoned but turned over in toto to the Africans . That
please to forget about the White man for once , and I ask you to withdraw your motion . We have the BIC and the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections) I thank you , Mr. Chairman , and I ask that the matter be put to the vote . We have quite a lot of motions there which are waiting for our attention. In any case the next motion affects me.
is why I would like to know from the member where he got this idea. Was it in Soweto? All that is necessary is to educate our people in thrift. MR. GUZANA: How can you practise thrift over a cent?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the fact that tomorrow we are dealing with a very im-
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : At the present moment even when one wins. money at the races , the first thing one thinks of is a fast motor car. Let us educate our people and not burden them with loans
portant piece of legislation at the committee stage , and in view of the fact that in my own view the standard of debate has been so lowered by the hon . members on
from the Government. I am surprised that you should speak so derogatively of the BIC, describing the terrible monster waiting to swallow everyone who wants assistance . But then what is the alternative? People
the
Opposition
side ,
and they
are just
now at the point of quibbling , I move that this House now adjourn till tomorrow morns ing yat 11 a.m. in erorder to give an oppormb to the me th to go thoroughly into
do not realise that if they get loans from the BIC they have to pay. If they buy a shop or a business with the assistance of the BIC they are inclined to think that that
the finances of the House . The Appropriation Bill is a very important Bill and the debate which is now on can be wound up after that. It is not important and you can
85.
such
see they are all talking nonsense . I move accordingly.
units are still operating in Transkei in conjunction with two case-finding and immunising teams attached to each unit . The districts of Cala , Matatiele and Cofimvaba have already been completed . The units are currently operating in the districts of Tsomo and Lusikisiki. Thereafter the districts of Tabankulu and Kentani will be
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 2nd May , 1967.
served. This programme will extend into August.. Subsequent venues will be determined according to the exigencies of the service . It is proposed to cover the entire Transkeian areas."
TUESDAY, 2ND MAY, 1967. resumed
at
11
practical
REPLY: (a) and (b) : The Regional Director, Department of Health, East London has supplied the following information in this connection: "Two mobile Departmental X-Ray
vernment side that we thought that to get a good night's sleep we should work off some of their nonsense in a game this afternoon. I second the motion .
Assembly
into
reality?
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I was thinking of a similar move on this side of the House . We have been plagued with ignorance to such an extent from the Go-
The
awareness
a.m.
Prayers were read.
(c) and (d) : My Department is fully aware of the seriousness of the position. Tuberculosis is of course a health matter which is still under the direct control of the De-
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . 3.201
partment of Health , but my Department is doing all it can by co-operation with that Department and S.A.N.T.A. to assist in combating the disease . It is one of the functions of the welfare officers of my Department to instruct the people in hygiene , sanitation, and improved living and eating habits , and thus tackle the problem at its root.
ANNOUNCEMENT .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as a result of the public holdiay on Thursday this week the Cabinet have felt that instead of coming back on Friday morning for the session , we have a short recess · that is , that we adjour tomorrow at 3.45 p.m. and the House resumes its normal work on Monday morning at the usual time.
QUESTION NO. 4. Mr. C.S. Mnyila the Interior:-
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , we welcome this announcement and also welcome the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister did alter the term " recess " to the one of "adjournment".
asked the Minister of
"Why tribal levies owing by the previous holder of a forfeited land in a surveyed district are demanded from the new holder of the forfeited land" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is a short recess .
REPLY : I assume that the honourable member has in mind quitrent and not tribal levies as the latter has no connection with the occupation of land.
MR . GUZANA: The change in name is very significant financially for the members of the House , because in effect we shall be in receipt of our allowances because it is an adjournment and not a recess .
The new holder of a forfeited allotment
QUESTIONS.
is required by law (section 7 ( 1 ) of Proclamation No. 196 of 1920) to pay any outstanding quitrent if he desires the allotment to be re-allotted to him. This section reads
QUESTION NO. 3. Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of the Interior:-
inter alia "any allotment forfeited .... shall be available for re-allotment......on pay-
(a)
Is the mobile X-Ray Unit operative in the Transkei ?
(b)
If so , can we be supplied with full information relating to its by progress district? district
ment by such claimant of such portion of the outstanding quitrent if any ,...... "
still
(c)
Is the Government aware of the fact that the incidence of tuberculosis is rife in these territories ?
(d)
If so, what steps , if any , is the Government taking to translate
QUESTION NO. 5. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Finance :"Since the last rising of this Assembly , how many Africans have replaced seconded Europeans in his six departments ? "
REPLY: Statistics are kept by the office of the Public Service Commission on a calendar
86 .
yearly
basis
quested , supplied. from the
and the information
as
re-
honourable member means Railway buses .
readily be therefore , cannot, However , as will be observed Commission's annual report for
The whole question has been referred to the System Manager of Railways , East London , and the required information will be supplied as soon as it is available . The training and employment of drivers for railway buses is of course not a function of the Transkei Government.
1966 tabled last week , twenty-three seconded Republican officials. were withdrawn during the period of twelve months 1st January to the 31st December , 1966 .
QUESTION NO.6. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Since the last rising of this Assembly , how many dams for stock and boreholes for human consumption have been constructed in betterment areas?" REPLY : Since 24-6-66 constructed:-
the
following
QUESTION NO. 10.
Q8 brodbe
Mr. G. Education :-
asked the
Dana
Minister of
" (a) What is the percentage of school children who leave school before SAT standard 22. (b) What is the percentage of school children at school who got further than standard 4 between 1964 66?
were
Dams: 82 Boreholes equipped 21.
(c) What is the percentage of the African children who advanced to secondary schools in 1965 1966?
QUESTION NO. 7. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of the Interior: -
(d) What is the percentage of the African school children who had
" What are the functions of a candidate's agent in a vote's counting office ?"
less than four years schooling? "
REPLY : The functions of a candidate's agent are to ensure that the result of the poll is determined in terms of the prescribed pro-
REPLY : (a) 51.73% (b) 1964 - 24.94% 1965 - 26% 1966 - 26.47% 8.06% (c) 1965 1966 9% (d) 51.73%
visions as laid down in Proclamation No. R142 of 1963 , as amended . QUESTION NO. 8. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Justice :-
(a) How many Transkei an person are detained under Proclamation R.400 of 1960 . ་ (i) in the Transkeian prisons and (ii) in the Republic of South Africa?
REPLY : Members of the Police force perform ordinary police duties in connection with elections and are therefore not entitled to special remuneration.
(b) Are there any political prisoners who were released under amnesty during the celebrations of the 5th
QUESTION NO. 9. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:-
Anniversary of the Republic of South Africa in 1966. If so , how many?.
(a) How many Africans were trained to drive Government buses?
(c) What steps could be taken to induce the Prison Chiefs to furnish political detainees with copies of the Prison Code on admission?
(b) How many are employed?
are they working?
(d) How many were involved in accidents?
(e) How many were dismissed , reasons for dismissal? "
non
QUESTION NO.11 . Mr. Lewis Z. Majija asked the Minister of Justice :-
(a) Why members of the police force. are not remunerated for their services like civil servants during elections?
(c) Which routes
な
REPLY: (a)
and
(i) One (ii) None
(b) The Department has no information in this regard . (c) The Prisons are not under the control of the Transkeian Government.
REPLY: The reference to " Government buses " is not clear but it is presumed that the
87.00
such
see they are all talking nonsense . I move accordingly.
(a) and (b) : The Regional Director, Department of Health, East London has supplied the following information in this connection: Departmental " Two mobile X -Ray units are still operating in Transkei in conjunction with two case-finding and immunising teams attached to each unit. The districts of Cala , Matatiele and Cofimvaba have already been completed . The units are currently operating in the districts of Tsomo and Lusikisiki . Thereafter the districts of Tabankulu and Kentani will be
Agreed to . The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 2nd May, 1967.
served. This programme will extend into August.. Subsequent venues will be determined according to the exigencies of the service . It is proposed to cover the entire Transkeian areas . "" '
TUESDAY, 2ND MAY, 1967. resumed
at
11
practical
REPLY :
vernment side that we thought that to get a good night's sleep we should work off some of their nonsense in a game this afternoon. I second the motion .
Assembly
into
reality?
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I was thinking of a similar move on this side of the House . We have been plagued with ignorance to such an extent from the Go-
The
awareness
a.m.
Prayers were read.
(c) and (d) : My Department is fully aware of the seriousness of the position. Tuberculosis is of course a health matter which is still under the direct control of the De-
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
partment of Health, but my Department is doing all it can by co-operation with that Department and S.A.N.T.A. to assist in combating the disease . It is one of the functions of the welfare officers of my
ANNOUNCEMENT . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as a result of the public holdiay on Thursday this week the Cabinet have felt that instead of coming back on Friday morning for the session , we have a short recess · that is , that we adjourn
Department to instruct the people in hygiene , sanitation , and improved living and eating habits , and thus tackle the problem at its root.
tomorrow at 3.45 p.m. and the House resumes its normal work on Monday morning at the usual time .
QUESTION NO. 4. Mr. C.S. Mnyila the Interior: -
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , we welcome this announcement and also welcome the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister did alter the term " recess " to the one of "adjournment" .
asked the Minister of
"Why tribal levies owing by the previous holder of a forfeited land in a surveyed district are demanded from the new holder of the forfeited land" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is a short recess .
REPLY : I assume that the honourable member has in mind qui trent and not tribal levies as the latter has no connection with the occupation of land.
MR. GUZANA: The change in name is very significant financially for the members of the House , because in effect we shall be in receipt of our allowances because it is an adjournment and not a recess .
The new holder of a forfeited allotment
QUESTIONS.
is required by law (section 7 (1) of Proclamation No. 196 of 1920) to pay any outstanding quitrent if he desires the allotment to be re-allotted to him. This section reads
QUESTION NO. 3. Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of the Interior:-
inter alia "any allotment forfeited .... shall be available for re-allotment......on pay-
(a)
Is the mobile X-Ray Unit operative in the Transkei ?
(b)
If so, can we be supplied with full information relating to its district? by district progress
ment by such claimant of such portion of the outstanding quitrent if any, ......"
still
(c)
Is the Government aware of the fact that the incidence of tuberculosis is rife in these territories?
(d)
If so , what steps , if any, is the Government taking to translate
QUESTION NO . 5. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Finance :" Since the last rising of this Assembly, how many Africans have replaced seconded Europeans in his six departments ? "
REPLY : Statistics are kept by the office of the Public Service Commission on a calendar
86.
yearly basis and the information as requested , therefore , cannot, readily be supplied . However , as will be observed from the Commission's annual report for 1966 tabled last week , twenty-three seconded Republican officials were withdrawn during the period of twelve months 1st January to the 31st December , 1966.
honourable member means Railway buses. The whole question has been referred to the System Manager of Railways , East London, andST the required information will be supplied as soon as it i available . The training and employment of drivers for railway buses is of course not a function of the 30 Transkei Government.
QUESTION NO.6. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of
QUESTION NO. 10. Mr. G. Dana asked the Education :-
Agriculture and Forestry :-
"Since the last rising of this Assembly, how many dams for stock and boreholes for human consumption have been constructed in betterment areas ?" REPLY : 24-6-66 Since constructed :-
the
following
Minister of
"(a) What is the percentage of school children who leave school before standard 22 waldmozaA 94T BM ba£ , 7ebesu no (b) What is the percentage of school a children at school who got further than standard 4 between 1964 66?
were
Dams:
82 Boreholes equipped 21.
(c) What is the percentage of the African children who advanced
QUESTION NO. 7 . Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of the Interior: -
to secondary schools in 1965 be bu 1966?
"What are the functions of a candidate's
(d) What is the percentage of the African school children who had
agent in a vote's counting office ?"
less than four years schooling?"
REPLY : The functions of a candidate's agent
REPLY: (a) 51.73% (b) 1964 1965 1966
are to ensure that the result of the poll is determined in terms of the prescribed provisions as laid down in Proclamation No. R142 of 1963, as amended .
(c) 1965 1966
QUESTION NO. 8. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Justice :-
1081 QUESTION NO.11. Mr. Lewis Z. Majija asked the Minister of Justice :-
(a) How many Transkeian persone are detained under Proclamation R.400 of 1960
REPLY : Members of the Police force perform ordinary police duties in connection with elections and are therefore not entitled to special remuneration .
(i) in the Transkeian prisons and (ii) in the Republic of South Africa? (b) Are there any political prisoners who were released under amnesty
QUESTION NO. 9. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:-
during the celebrations of the 5th Anniversary of the Republic of South Africa in 1966. If so , how many?
"(a) How many Africans were trained to drive Government buses ?
(c) What steps could be taken to induce the Prison Chiefs to furnish political detainees with copies of the Prison Code on admission?
(b) How many are employed? routes
are they working?
(d) How many were involved in accidents?
(e) How many were dismissed , reasons for dismissal ?"
700 eil 251552
(d) 51.73%
(a) Why members of the police force are not remunerated for their services like civil servants during elections ?
(c) Which
24.94% 26% 26.47% 8.06% 9%
REPLY: (a)
and
(i) One (ii) None
(b) The Department has no information in this regard. (c) The Prisons are not under the control of the Transkeian Government .
REPLY: The reference to " Government buses " is not clear but it is presumed that the
87.
QUESTION NO . 12. Mr. Paulos Mqikela asked the Minister of the Interior : -
the deputy holds a position quite different from that of an assistant. What the deputy does binds the man who has deputised him and what the assistant has done may well be altered by the man who has asked him to assist. What is the position?
"What were the reasons for the refusal of a trader's licence to Mrs. G. Mqikela of Nqadu Location , Gcaleka Region , Willowvale district on the 15th November, 1966? ”
THE CHIEF MINISTER : As the hon . member has already indicated , a deputy
REPLY: Neither the tribal authority nor the regional authority were prepared to recommend the application.
performs the functions of the man who has appointed him during his absence and when he is present he can perform those functions , whereas an assistant is a person who assists all the time even when the chief is present .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising from this reply , would the hon. the Minister of the Interior indicate what the
MR. GUZANA : Yes , my point was that it would therefore be irregular for the chief to countermand a decision by a deputy.
Department's attitude was to this application in view of the stated policy of the Government that Africans would be encouraged to trade in the Transkei ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Will the hon. member please table the question .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How can that be, because if the matter has been decided by the deputy he acted in the place of the chief in his absence?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that I have since received
QUESTION NO . 14 . Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of Education: -
satisfactory information in regard to Question 13 , I will withdraw it.
"(a) What has delayed the announcement of the Primary Lower Third Year results of the Osborn Training School?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where did you get the reply?
(b) When
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , the question now belongs to the House and therefore I feel we ought to have a reply.
the
results
to
be
Osborn Training School in 1966 are employed as teachers and
MR. RAJUILI: That question was placed by me and I feel I no longer require a reply but for the benefit of the members who may like to know I will put the question .
asked
these
(c) Is it correct that the students who wrote the Primary Lower Year Examinations Third at
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall request the hon. member to put the question.
QUESTION NO. 13. Rev. B.S. Rajuili Minister:-
are
published?
are paid as unqualified teachers ?
(d) Will these teachers when the results are published be given back pay respectively to the of their employment? " dates
Chief
REPLY : (a) The
"What is the proper position in case where a chief-member of the Transkei has been elected Legislative Assembly has a minister in the Transkei Government in
examiners
discovered
what
they believed to be indications of possible irregularities in the The scripts . scripts concerned were returned to the Department
respect of his position as a chief over his tribesmen? "
by the Department of Bantu Education with a request that the matter be investigated . The announcement of the results was consequently held back.
REPLY: "I regret that the honourable member's question is not really understood because a chief remains a chief whether he becomes a minister of this Government or not. He loses of course his allowance as a chief
(b) The results published .
when he becomes a minister and provision is made in Proclamation No. 311 of 1963
have
already
been
(c) Yes .
for the payment of a deputy nominated by him to assist him with his chieftainship functions ."
(d) Yes . QUESTION NO . 15 . Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of Finance :-
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . the Chief Minister, may I know the position of the deputy as distinct from an assistant? If I am correct
(i) To which of the two Governments
88 .
do fines of the Transkeian people who have been arrested for non-
(c) Is it true that they have to carry on horse back castrating apparatus 2 budizzo , 2 dosing guns , bleeding fragile outfit, outfit, blankets ,
production of permits to seek work in proclaimed areas outside the Transkei go?
provisions food all this weighing over 50 lbs plus the weight of the rider?
(ii) If they go to the Republican Govemment, why?
(iii) If to the Transkeian since when?
(d) Is this not too heavy for the horse and a great deal of discomfort to this civil servant?
Government,
REPLY : (i) Transkeian citizens who remain in without being proclaimed areas permitted to do so are contravening the provisions of section 10 of the Bantu (Urban Areas) Consolidated Act, 1945 (Act No. 25 of 1945) and fines paid in respect of such contraventions accrue to the urban
(f) Are you aware that most areas are rehabilitated which means there
local authority concerned in terms of section 19 ( 10) of the same Act.
are no short cuts . Stock Inspectors travel by main roads?
(e) As it is in the interest of the public for a Stock Inspector to start work early in the morning so that children go to school after dipping, why are they denied this right of car allowance?
(ii) Falls away .
REPLY :
(iii) Falls away.
(a) Yes .
QUESTION NO. 16. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Justice :-
(b) (i) Stock Inspectors Grade III only do about 300 miles per month With so few miles at the stand-
Minister of
ard tariff for private vehicles a man is invariably out of
"In view of the statement I made last session to the effect that African Police
pocket every month if he uses his own motor car.
families should enjoy free medical treatment, could you explain if this is now a fact . If not , why not?"
(ii) It has been our experience that the motor cars which Stock Inspectors Grade III can afford are usually old cars and in such poor condition that they are usually in for repairs ,
REPLY:
The families of African Police do not enjoy free medical treatment as no such
causing financial embarassment to the Inspector and loss of man hours to the Government as he cannot work without
provision exists in the South African Police Regulations under which they serve. QUESTION NO . 17 .
transport. Mr. N. Justice :-
Jafta
asked the
Minister of
(iii ) In order to make horse transport a practical proposition, all Grade III Stock Inspectors ' areas have been made smaller.
(a) Provided an African constable is in good health, is he allowed to be on active service beyond 55 years of age?
(c) No. Budizzo , dosing guns and bleeding outfits are issued to the Stock Inspector Grade II , who has an X.G. vehicle to transport them. These instruments are invariably used under his supervision if and when the stock owners request his services . If a Grade III Inspector
(b) If not, why not? REPLY : (a) Yes , provided he is a contributor to Republican Consolidated Pension Fund .
carries this equipment on his horse it is not on the insistence of the
(b) Falls away .
Department.
QUESTION NO. 18. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Agriculture and Forestry:-
Minister of
(d) This question falls away as the Inspector only carries his blankets , food and a diptesting outfit, a total weight of at the most 15 lbs - well within the capabilities of a horse.
(a) Is it true that grade III Stock Inspectors are not getting private car allowance?
(e) See part (b) of this answer.
(b) If Not, why not?
89 .
Sil (f) Only 30% of the Transkei is rehabilitated, and there are no short cuts for motor vehicles . Horses ,
to make representations through the Civic Association who are really the people who order the mealies from everywhere and
however, can get just about everywhere. A large number of the dipping tanks. are inaccessible to
dispose of them in the Transkei . At the same time I am not too much worried about these husks and what not, as a Minister
motor vehicles , but the inspector is able to reach all of them on horse back. For this reason alone horse transport is more efficient than motor transport .
of Agriculture , because I really think our mealies in the Transkei are properly husked and winnowed and , in fact, we should grow sufficient mealies so that we should not
QUESTION NO . 19. Mr. N. Jafta asked the
import unhusked mealies from
MR. GUZANA: So that even if poison is brought with the mealies into the Transkei you would not be bothered because it is not your function . (Laughter)
Minister of
Interior:"Why is it that Ncambedlana residents are not getting a door to door delivery of their telegrams taking into consideration that each home could easily be numbered. "
QUESTION NO . 21 . Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of the Interior: (a) Will the Minister supply information relating to the number of old age pensioners who have been
REPLY: The delivery of telegrams or arrangements in that connection is not a function
recipients of pensions but have been struck off the list as such by a departmental officer from Umtata ?
or the responsibility of the Department of the Interior. The postal authorities were , however, contacted and they intimated that in terms of their instructions , telegrams are only delivered in municipal areas within a distance of two miles by road from the main post office. Ncambedlana does not fall within the prescribed distance
(b) As the assessment of the eligibility for these pensions is made by a magistrate in each district as this officer has more intimate knowthe conditions of the ledge of the
requirement.
QUESTION NO.20 . Mr. N. Jafta
asked
the
elsewhere .
people , on what grounds does this Umtata officer reverse the recommendation of the magistrate?
Minister of
Agriculture and Forestry:REPLY :
"Is the Minister aware of the fact that at certain times mealies from mealie depots sold to the public in the Transkei is not properly winnowed, full of cobs and husks , not suitable for human consumption ? If he is aware of the position, what steps has he taken to remedy this situation?
(a) Although the
officer from Umtata
carried out a superficial review of beneficiaries under the different social benefit schemes it was not within his power to cancel any grants . He did however submit a report to the Department and certain aspects thereof are being investiin collaboration with the gated in
REPLY: No, and even if I happened to know it I could not remedy the situation as it does not fall within the scope of my responsibilities and/or functions .
magistrate . (b) From (a) it is clear that this officer was in no position to reverse any of the decisions of the magistrate .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture , if indeed what is alleged in this question does happen, has the Minister not considered making representations in this regard in order to see that the mealies are properly winnowed and that there are no husks and cobs and foreign objects in the mealies sold? I believe representations could be made to the Mealie Industry Control Board on this matter. ba 99 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I very much sympathise with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , but although I sympathise with him I cannot promise to do everything that does not belong to my department, but just as a good gesture on my part I will advise the members
It may be added that in terms of standing instructions social benefit cases are to be reviewed annually and it is not uncommon that cases are found where awards were made to underserving cases . QUESTION NO. 22 Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of Interior as follows :-
"How many (1) Transkeian youths there are in reformatory schools? (2) Transkeian children in Children's Homes? (3) Children's Homes in the Transkei ? (4) Reformatories in the Transkei ? and (5) If there are none of these institu-
90.
tions, whether the Transkei Government does not consider them a necessity? If so, what steps are being taken to provide for the same?"
comment and motivation to the Department for consideration and recommendation to the Minister. Should it be acceptable to the Minister , he will then publish the proposal of the Government Road in the newspapers and in the Transkei Gazette forccomments and consideraAfter objections . tion of the latter, if any, " the final gazettal will take place .
REPLY : (1) Approximately 20 ; all in reformatories in the Republic , the majority being at Bekruipkop Youth Camp near King William's Town. (2) Approximately 12; all in Children's Homes in the Republic . (3) None at present, but my Department is negotiating for the establishment of one at Cala , which it is hoped will commence operating during the latter half of this year.
(c) A 7 Government Road differs in that:from other roads
(i) It is the direct responsibility of the Department of Roads and Works . All other roads , other than special project and forest roads , are tribal authority roads and thus their responsibiTegimelity. (ii) It has a wider statutory width namely 80 to 100
(4) None at present, but the establishment of reformatory or Youth Camp at Luchabadrift in the district of Umtata is under consideration . (5) It will be obvious from the above that my Department regards such institutions as a necessity in the
Cape feet as compared with. an authority road the width of which is 40 Cape feet. (iii) It is usually constructed and maintained to a higher standard than other roads.
Transkei , and that it has taken positive steps towards their establishment.
QUESTION NO. 24. Rev. B. S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
QUESTION NO. 25. Mr. G. Dana asked the Education: -
(a) Without giving details of routes and halts , give the number of government roads in each region other than Maluti . (b) How does a road become Government Road?
Minister of
"(a) (i) What is the percentage of the African teachers who have
a
post matriculation professional qualifications and (ii) what is the percentage of those who are not even matriculated? (b) (i) How many African students qualified University for entrance in 1965-66? and (ii) of that number, how many of them passed mathematics and could qualify to enter faculties like science?"
(c) How does a Government Road differ from other roads?
REPLY: 71 (a) Dalindyebo 62 Emboland 31 Emigrant Tembuland 39 Fingoland Gcaleka 55 40 Nyanda Qaukeni 76 Umzimkulu 20 (In case the honourable member is not aware of the number in Maluti , I wish to advise him that there are 36.)
REPLY : (a) (i) 9.74% (ii) 90.26% (b) (i) 1965 — 28. 1966 - 41 (ii) 1965.- 7 1966 - 9
(b) When a tribal authority considers , in view of the circumtoa stances appertaining certain road that it should become a Government Road , an application for it to be declared as such can be submitted to the
QUESTION NO. 26. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Roads and Works :(a) How many ox-drawn or tractordrawn graders were issued to
Road Board (i.e. the Regional Authority) who will investigate
Emboland Regional Authority since 1964?
the application and the reasons together therefor with the Senior Roads Foreman of the Department of Roads . The Road Board will then submit the application with observations ,
(b) When did the Department buy these graders? (c) How many are they altogether in your Department? (d) To whom were these graders issued
91.
in Emboland?
allegation was that the envelope in which certain question papers had been received , were not opened in the presence of the candidates and that the students had received notes
(e) With what instructions ? (f) What is the cost of each grader? . (g) What report could you give with regard to the work done by those graders?
based on the questions in these papers . The findings cannot be
REPLY: (a) None . (b) 1966 . (c) 12 . (d) Falls away . (e) Falls away. (f) R1065.00 (g) Falls away.
disclosed, as such a step may prejudice proceedings that are about to be instituted .
(c) (i) The invigilator in the Senior Certificate Examination , Rev. H. Mahlasela , then Warden of his son , Z. Mathe hostels ; hlasela , and two of the latter's
MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , in the reply I have received the hon . Minister has stated that there are no tractor-drawn graders in Emboland and yet I have seen two at Mount Frere . Am I making a mistake about this ?
friends , Mdlalana and Titus . (ii ) Mr. Msengi , the Training School principal. (d) (i) The three High School students were disqualified . Whether the Joint Matriculation Board in-
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I will request the hon . member to put it in writing .
tends to take action against the invigilator is not known. (ii) The Department of Bantu Education has taken steps to refer matter of the Training the the School to examination
QUESTION NO. 27. Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Education:"(a) Has the Education Department instituted a commission of inquiry
for
Attorney-General legal action .
into the alleged corruption surrounding the External Examination
possible
MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . Minister , where are the question papers kept ? Are they kept by the invigilator or by the principal of the school concerned ? I am asking this question so that we may understand each other well .
in the Training and High schools last year at Clarkebury? (b) What were the findings of that commission of inquiry? (c) What were the names of the persons involved? (d) What kind of punishment was inflicted on the persons con-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION Being a Minister of Education and not an examinations board , and being keen for the same understanding that my hon. friend across the floor is keen on, I would request him to put his question in writing.
cerned?
REPLY : at examinations external (a) The Clarkebury are not conducted by the Department of Education in the Transkei . The Senior Certificate conducted by was examination the Joint Matriculation Board and the Primary Higher teachers examination by the Department of Bantu Education . There was no
ANNOUNCEMENT. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the adjournment of the House I wish to announce that the hon . member for Dalindyebo region , Chief Johnson Jumba, is in hospital. I went to see him last night and I found he was suffering from acute asthma.
Commission of Inquiry, but officials of the Department carried out investigations on behalf of the Joint Matriculation Board and the Department of Bantu Education.
Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that the policy speech of the Chief Minister is unlikely to take less than 45 minutes , and it is very undesirable that it should be cut because of the adjournment, I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 this afternoon .
(b) The findings which were submitted to these bodies , were the following: (i) In regard to the Senior Certificate examination it was established that the son of the had succeeded in obtaining copies of some of the question examination papers , and that he had divulged the contents to two of his
invigilator
THE
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION :
I
second, Mr. Chairman .
Agreed to.
fellow students . (ii) In regard to the Teachers ' the Certificate examination
AFTERNOON SESSION. The Assembly resumed
92.
at 2.15 p.m.
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
of our children and the upli upliftment of our people , the agricultural , economic and industrial development of our country and the laying of solid foundations for our own administration . Only after substantial success is attained by us in these important spheres will independence enter into the realm of practical politics for the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that the House sits in committee . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second .
Agreed to.
Transfer
House in Committee POLICY SPEECH OF THE CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE 1967. Mr. Chairman
of
further
Functions :
Members
will have noticed from the speech by the Honourable the Prime Minister at the opening of this session that the Transkei Govemment is , on the strength of resolutions previously adopted by this House . at present negotiating with the Republican Government for the transfer to the Transkei of further administrative matters such as public
and honourable members of
the Legislative Assembly -
health, information services , certain aspects of transport and the TH taking over of certain Police Stations in the Transkei. The Prime
As is customary when the vote of the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance comes up for discussion at the committee stage I will briefly discuss a few political issues concerning the Transkei which are mooted from time to time in the public press
Minister indicated that these requests are present being investigated and will thereafter be given sympathetic consideration . I do not wish to add anything further in this connection .
or on political platforms .
Separate Development: sary for me to say at Transkeian Government barked on implementing
It is hardly necesthe outset that the is still firmly emthe policy of separate development in the Transkei . We as a Government remain firmly convinced that this policy allows the Transkeian people full scope for self-realization in our Fatherland · the Transkei .
Territorial Claims : I have also during the past year • to the consternation of many people · been quoted and largely misquoted as laying claim on behalf of the Transkei to all the land between the Fish River in the South and the Umzimkulu River in the North . I would like to make it perfectly clear once and for all that when I speak of the land between the Fish and the Umzimkulu
For this reason we ( as a Government) are dedicated -
Rivers I refer only to the existing Bantu homelands and such other land in this
to live in peace and harmoney with our White neighbours in (the rest of) the Republic of South Africa;
territory as might be purchased for Bantu occupation or which might in a process of It should consolidation become Bantu areas . It s be remembered that in terms of the Native
to develop our land so that it can provide a proper and decent living to all its citizens ;
Trust and Land Act of 1936 a further 678,000 morgen of land should still be purchased for Bantu occupation in the Cape Province. It would obviously be most presumptuous and unrealistic of me to think that purely White districts and huge White urban complexes such as East London , Queenstown or Port Shepstone , for that matter, should be incorporated into the Transkei.
to educate our children and to activate our people so that they can share in the fruits of progress and civilization; and to build a state administration in the Transkei which will ensure law, order and justice for all its citizens .
Amalgamation of Transkei and Ciskei : I further believe that when I ask for the
The Independence Issue : From time to time I am questioned as to when I envisage independence for the Transkei . Let me say at the outset that independence is not, as far as I (or) my colleagues in the Government are concerned , a question of any
linking of the Bantu areas of the Ciskei with the Transkei I am in full accord with the policy of the Republican Government. The Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act No. 47 of 1959 provides for self-government for the main Bantu National Groups within the Republic . Our brothers in the Ciskei also belong to the Xhosa national unit. One Commissioner-General has been
practical importance at this stage of our development. We have all witnessed how the granting of premature independence to other states on the African continent has brought nothing but chaos , tragedy , retrogression and oppression in its wake for the peoples of those countries . At this stage of our development there are far more important tasks that claim our undivided attention . Tasks such as the education
appointed for the Xhosa national unit of the Transkei and the Ciskei and the Fort Hare University is also regarded as the University for the Xhosa of the Transkei. Two separate Xhosa States side by side within the Republic of South Africa can hardly be
93.
envisaged and the political affiliation of the Ama-Xhosa of the Ciskei with the
Another possibility which could be considered is to allow private White enterprise to establish industries in the Transkei provided that the Government or a Government corporation be given a controlling financial interest therein . The Government
Transkei seems , to me , inevitable . Undue delay with such an amalgamation and any development in the opposite direction such as the development of separate self- governing institutions for the Ama-Xhosa of the Ciskei cans ultimately only complicate matters .
could under such a scheme take up shares or provide 51 % of the capital of such undertakings and then allow White initiative to establish and run the undertakings .
White Capital : Another political bone of contention about which I am often being askedd is the question as to whether or not
Should such a scheme eventuate it would be essential to lay down a welldefined policy and explicit conditions beforehand . I have in mind stipulations concerning -
White capital should be allowed into the Transkei. I explained my views in this connection when I introduced the Transkei Development and Reserve Fund Bill in 1964 and for the sake
of clarity
will re-state
(a) the proportion of White workers to Bantu workers in such an undertaking;
them now.
I believe there are positive opportunities for industries within the Transkei , for inside the Transkei there are a number of sizable towns which can easily be extended; where electricity and water are readily available ; which lie on the railway line and are linked with other towns by a good road network; where certain raw materials are at hand; and where an abundance of labour is on the doorstep.
(b) the gradual withdrawal of White workers and the progressive advancement of the Bantu workers ; and (c) the eventual take-over of the whole undertaking by the Bantu. It is clear that any such scheme or policy should be properly investigated and considered . We should also develop and embark upon such a policy only in close collaboration with the Government of the Republic of South Africa. We are in our infancy as a Government and could easily. take wrong steps which could be to the detriment of our country and our people . There are in the Republic of South Africa bodies such as the Bantu Investment Cor-
I am also in favour of restrictions on the industrial development of the Transkei by uncontrolled White capital. I believe that if White capital were allowed to flow into the Transkei unchecked it would lead to the exploitation of the Transkei · not for the benefit of its own citizens but for the benefit of White entrepreneurs . I have often stated it as my policy that the riches and potential of the Transkei should be preserved and developed for its own sons and daughters. A It is, however , equally clear that it would be an idle dream to depend for the industrial development of the Transkei on private Black capital and initiative only . The Bantu today have not sufficient capital for any large-scale industrialization . Furthermore , we also have neither the experience nor the necessary know-how for such undertakings . Our trouble is therefore that whilst the development of the Transkei by private White capital should for valid reasons not be allowed, it would also be unrealistic to depend on private Black capital or initiative alone to stimulate such development.
poration; the Xhosa Development Corporation , the Industrial Development Corporation, the Board of Trade and Industries , the Fuel Research Institute , the Natural Resources Development Council, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research , the various Control Boards , the Economic and Scientific Advisory Councils , etc. as well as other bodies , persons and departments which have extensive knowledge of and experience in such matters . I
am
convinced
that
a
satisfactory
solution will ultimately be found . We know that the Republican Government has our interest at heart and that the proper development of the Bantu Territories is also a corner stone of the policy of the Republican Government. We must therefore rely on the advice , help and guidance of the Republic and Republican expert bodies in connection with the industrial development of our territory. The Transkei is obviously deeply interested in this question and should be consulted and kept informed about any policy developments in this connection .
One solution would of course be industries launched with government capital and managed by bodies such as the Xhosa Development Corporation . Although this might be a feasible proposition in the case of certain major undertakings it would obviously, for reasons which I need not enumerate here , not be a sound or wise long-term policy. Private initiative should be allowed and encouraged to play its part in the development of the territory.
Labour
Influx
Control
Measures :
I have
been taken to task by Opposition members for statements I have made in connection with influx control . It is correct that influx
94.
control is a separate development measure , for the influx control regulations are designed to regulate an orderly flow of labour to the industrial centres and , inter alia , to ensure that people seeking work in the cities are assured that there will be work and suitable housing for them.
study leave and is studying for a B.Sc. degree at Fort Hare University. golangil The increase in the fixed establishment of my Department is largely due to the increased volume of work performed in the Accounts Branch of my Department of which more particulars will be given at a later stage .
I also appreciate the fact that the policy of the Republican Government is to give preference to Coloured labour in the Western Cape and that the numbers of Bantu labourers in the Cape should be gradually reduced . Such reduction should, however, go hand in hand and be related to the Development of the Bantu homelands to ensure that our citizens who are removed from the
The Treasury: The Treasury section of my Department exercises constant and efficient financial control over all the activities of the Departments of the Transkei. Needless to say, sound financial control of Government finances and the maintenance of strict standards of financial responsibility are the indispensable foundations on which to build a stable and orderly Government.
Cape will be able to make a living in the Transkei. In the meantime our own labour bure aux are co-operating fully with the labour bureaux system of the Republic and the
The Tender Board: The Transkei Tender Board consisting of the six Departmental Secretaries under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Finance is functioning smoothly. The Board met regularly and during the last financial year dealt with 44 formal tenders involving a total V amount of
benefit derived through this system can be seen from the fact that during 1966 our labour bureaux found employment for 160,000 Transkeian workers in the Republic. When I make representations from time to time to the Republic for certain relaxations in influx control measures I do so as a res-
R1,600,000 . The Tender Committee consisting of the Chairman, the Assistant Secretary and the Chief Clerk, Finance furnished 43 authorities to dispense with the invitation of formal tenders and to invite letter quotations and dealt with 52 informal tenders to a total value of R60,000.
ponsible leader of my people seeking to promote the welfare of our citizens who are dependent at this stage of our development on employment outside our own territory. It should not be interpreted as if I thereby ridicule the idea or necessity of a properly controlled labour influx system .
Accounts Branch : The accounts of all six Transkeian Departments are centralized Accountant in the and in my Department my Department is therefore actually an rendering Accountant inter-departmental all the to advice and accounting services other Departments . 7
Mr. Chairman and honourable members I will now continue by giving a brief resume of the administration of the Departments under my care .
The Department of the Chief Minister and Finance is to a large extent a central controlling Department in the Transkei . It embraces the Treasury , the Public Service. Commission and the Tender Board, and acts as a central accounting and bookkeeping office for all other Departments . It does all the administrative work relating to this Legislative Assembly and it controls the administration of the lower administrative bodies in the Transkei such as Regional and Tribal Authorities .
Because
the
Accountant
has
been
over-loaded with production work he was unable to render these inter-departmental advisory services on a satisfactory basis and the Public Service Commission was requested to conduct an investigation in this section of my Department. The result was that 20 new posts were created in the Accounts Branch and a new control post of Control Accountant was created. As from the 1st of April , 1966 the Accounts Branch took over from the Department of Bantu Administration and
Staff: The staff position in my Department has during the past year changed as follows :
Development and Education the payment of all teachers ' salaries , the preparation
Total number of posts as at 1.4.66 .......... 140 Posts created during year ...... 33 Posts abolished during year.......... 2 171 Position as at 1.4.67.............
of vouchers for the payment of all social benefits and the preparation of our own voters' rolls .
Of the 171 posts on the fixed establishment of my Department 22 are at present occupied by seconded Republican officials . During the year we lost a very valued and conscientious official , namely Mr. G.J. Olivier, our erstwhile Accountant who died and to whose memory I wish to pay tribute . Another officer has been granted
A modern mechanized section was established in the Department equipped with modern tabulating machines to tackle this additional work on a punch-card accountTranskeian citizens were ing system. trained to operate these machines and are now doing so very efficiently.
95 .
of Chiefs in the Dalindyebo Region whereas the new chief of the Ama-Bhe le automatically took the seat of Acting chief E. Mabandla . The new members are Chiefs D. Gobidolo, G.M. Mabandla and D. Mrazuli and Messrs . P.M. Sobahle , R. Madikizela and S. Bacela .
To give an indication of the volume of additional work now being undertaken in the Accounts Branch I need only mention that 5,900 teachers , 2,500 civil servants and 109 members of the Legislative Assembly are paid monthly, 65,000 social beneficiaries are paid bi-monthly and 900,000 voters cards have to be maintained. For the recent by-elections voters rolls embracing 450,000 voters were compiled and tabulated in the mechanized section .
During 1966 9 chiefs were designated by regional authorities in consultation with the tribes concerned . Of these one was in a newly created chieftainship . Six of the chiefs designated last year, together with two chiefs and a paramount chief designated the · previous year were installed since the last session . The appointment of 50 headmen, including 1 new headmanship , by
Legislative Assembly Branch : It seems that the Transkei is maintaining its position as a major tourist attraction in the Republic. According to available statistics 253 tourists , mostly from overseas , were conducted on official tours through the Transkei during 1966/67 by the Information Department and during the same period 1,255 tourists signed the visitors book in this Legislative Assembly. Visitors from abroad come to the Transkei mainly to see the policy for which we stand, separate development, in action . To indicate the standing of these visitors I wish to mention that the following persons or groups of persons have already visited the Transkei
tribal authorities was confirmed by me in terms of Act No. 4 of 1965.
during the first 4 months of this year ( 1967) , namely:- Dr. Strauss , Minister of Finance in Western Germany, Mr. Lucke, Minister of Interior in Western Germany , Dr. Veenhoven , General Secretary of the Netherlands, Admiral Moorman of the Netherlands Parliament, three Ministers of State from
arrived for the Transkei Government as such to appoint official representatives in the main urban centres of the Republic as was envisaged in section 4 of the Promotion of Bantu Self-govemment Act No. 46 of 1959. I intend to take this matter up with the Houourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.
The chiefs in the Transkei have lately to an increasing degree been making use of the existing administrative machinery for appointing urban representatives in Republican towns . This tendency is to be welcomed because contact is thereby maintained with our citizens outside the Transkei , but I think that the time has now
Malawi , Mr. van der Spuy our Ambassador in Austria, Mr. Le Quesne , Head of the Africa Division of the British Foreign Office , Baron Lewe van Aduard and Prof. Vortman of Holland, the Ambassadors of Australia, Austria, Western Germany, Portugal, Argentine , Belgium and Brazil and groups of journalists from America, Great Britain and Switzerland .
During the year under review 138 Tribal Authorities and 9 Regional Authorities were reconstituted in the Transkei in terms of the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965. Of these Authorities 12 tribal and 1 regional authority are not yet functioning. The rest all operate reasonably well and fulfil their functions as local consultative bodies representing the people in their areas of jurisdiction in regard to all matters pertaining to the welfare of their communities . Most of them undertake tasks
Members are probably aware of the fact that all the organisational work relating to the convening of this Legislative Assembly, the opening ceremonies , the compilation and printing of minutes and order papers , the preparation of Hansards , the printing and dispatch of Bills to the State President , the maintenance of the members ' restaurant, the Legislative Assembly Library , etc. , are being undertaken by the Legislative
such as the maintenance of clinics , the erection of school buildings , the maintenance of non-proclaimed roads , the organization of agricultural shows and competitions , the erection of tribal courtrooms , etc. During the 1966/67 financial year tribal authorities were subsidised by the Transkeian Government to the extent of R20,795 and Regional Authorities to the extent of R16,418.
Assembly Branch of my Department. During the year under review the following six vacancies occurred in the Legislative Assembly, namely:-
The lack of administrative experience of many secretary/treasurers employed by tribal authorities is still a cause for
Through the death of Chiefs N. Mtirara , N.V. Mrazuli and elected member Mr. T. Mangala. Through the imprisonment of elected members Messrs . J.B. Nkosi-
concern . However, in terms of the new Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965 it is envisaged that this difficulty will disappear to a large extent when the local government bureaux sections which have been created in every Magistrate's office specifically to assist tribal authorities administratively are functioning smoothly.
yane and N.C. Nogcantsi and through the retirement of Acting Chief E. Mabandla . Three elections were held to fill the vacancies amongst the elected members and two chiefs were elected by the College
96.
Proper training courses for all these bureau clerks have been planned and will be conducted during the coming year. Efforts were also made to lighten the administrative burdens of these secretary /treasurers by simplifying forms and accounting procedures as well as by the opening of Trust Accounts for Tribal Authorities in substitution for individual banking accounts .
regulations be set aside in order to give the Leader of the Opposition sufficient time, unless this year the speech is not important.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The rules ofthe House allow ten minutes.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I remind you that this side of the House , when this policy speech was made, actually to assist this Government abandoned its right to have this policy speech discussed by this House for 15 hours . We could have claimed that right in terms of rule 130 , but we did not.
The Public Service Commission : As members know the office of the Public Service Commission is a Branch of the Departments of the Chief Minister and Finance and the officials fall under the administrative control of the Secretary of my Department.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I think it is only reasonable that we allow the Leader of the Opposition a limited time to reply to the policy statement of the Chief Minister, but as a very tiresome speaker
In view of the fact that the annual report of the Public Service Commission for 1966 has already been tabled and all the information concerning the work and the activities of that branch of my Department are thus available to members I do not intend to say anything more in that connection.
when he is holding the pulpit in church, I do not think we must let him go unrestricted . (Laughter) With the consent of my colleagues , therefore , (I am sure they will agree to that) we shall give him 45 minutes and all the others will be restricted to ten minutes.
Chairman and hon. members in on conclusi I wish to compliment the conscientious and dedicated officials of my Department · both White and Black . They work in harmony as a team and tackle their tasks with enthusiasm and zeal. When additional duties and overtime work must be performed they do it in an exemplary spirit even should it be up till 3.30 a.m. in the morning hours as was the case in the Accounts Branch for a considerable period up to last week. I am proud to be the Minister of such a Department and such officials . Mr.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the hon . the Chief Minister asked me to say Thankyou , but I gave you 14 hours 15 minutes to spare. The policy speech of the hon . the Chief Minister has dealt with certain political issues which really have been raised a number of times , and it is only now that he has sought to reply to these, shall we say, thomy and embarrassing questions relating to his policy . One of his observations is to the effect that the policy of separate development will allow people of the Transkei full realisation and that the people of the Transkei will live in harmony therefore with their White neighbours in the Republic. Now I think this is the ultimate aim of all govern-
Mr. Chairman and honourable members I ask you to approve of the policy of my Department and that Vote No. 1 be now considered by this Committee of the Legislative Assembly .
ments and the apostles of separate development cannot claim this objective as being exclusively that of the policy of separate development. The Communists have that as one of their objectives, and you take Russia
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members of the House , I shall now afford the hon. the Leader of the Opposition an opportunity
they seek full realisation of the Russians in Russia and they seek to live in harmony with neighbouring states under the policy of Communism . The autocrat seeks realisation of his subjects within the concepts of autocracy and he is convinced by his autocratic government he will be able to maintain cor-
to reply to the policy speech and I should also remind the House that rule 30(2) shall now apply. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I think that would be making a travesty of the whole thing if I am expected to reply in ten
dial relations with other countries , but Communism is not acceptable because its objectives are the same as those of separate development or the policy of multi -raciali sm.
minutes . It is no good my even trying to do it in that time. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Chairman
I believe the ultimate which everybody seeks to realise in this world is peace and understanding amongst the peoples of the world that we should share according to our skills and aptitudes the fruits of civilisation , but some of us want to crawl up to the Utopia along the road of self-development while others seek to realise the same objective through the policy of multi-racialism, and we must measure each road with the yardstick of humanity before we can say it is better
is bound by the rules of the House . THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Will the
House agree that the Leader of the Opposition be given more time?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, in the past in all our assemblies up to and including last year I think this House has always agreed that in an important policy speech the
97 .
than other policies towards this goal . On this side of the House our view is that separate development has so many pitfalls and snags, so much barbed wire and so many political and economic disadvantages , so many setbacks that it cannot be recommended to any
dual who opens up the country economically and once we have political conditions attaching to industrial development, then your development will be very, very slow and retarded . We believe that industrialisation of any country must be guided solely by economic factors such as the availability of raw material , access to the sea, availability of labour, transport, availability of skills , and that is about all and nothing ideological . If only private enterprise were to be allowed into the Transkei then we would be in the dawn of an economic revolution and trans-
people to reach this goal unless they adopt the policy of multi-raciali sm which recognises the intrinsic human values of the individual without taking into account his colour. And so we see also that independence is something in the nature of an ideal and our view is that the Government of the Transkei has been flogging independence as an emo-
formation of this part of South Africa. Americans have invested large sums ofmoney
tional stirring rod to keep up political allegiance to a policy that is anathema to most of the people of the Transkei . We welcome the fact that the governing party has realised that independence is not just next- door but it may be in the land of Never-never, and that that political horse has been stranded on the road and cannot again be ridden in 1968. The hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that he has been quoted and misquoted regarding his ideas about the Ciskei and his claim for more territory to fall under a Bantu stan known as the Xhosa Bantu stan. Now he has stated here that he does indeed foresee in the immediate future an amalgamation with the
in South Africa in private enterprise; foreign capital has been the basis of the industrialisation of Canada, and it has been shown therefore that uninhibited infusion of private enterprise has been responsible for quick development in undeveloped countries. Why conduct an experiment which will involve a race when there have been tried methods and proved methods of development in other parts ofthe world? These boards and bodies versed in technical knowledge and with all the research methods available to them should equally be ready to come into the Tran sk ei and assist the private man. The White capital infused into the Transkei privately will make progress fast and effective and the Transkei
Ciskei and that amalgamation will be only in respect of consolidated Bantu areas in the Ciskei . I do feel , however, that the hon . the Chief Minister should be honest with the electorate on this issue. At the TNIP conference held just before Parliament began its session this year, he stated quite catego-
will then develop a complex industrial sy stem in a shorter period than has been the case with other countries less furtun ate than the Transkei is in having the Republic of South Africa as well developed economically as it is today. Influx control is becoming a very thomy point and indeed the Government has been brought to its knees and has gone to the Republican Government to negotiate on this issue , but a responsible Government
rically " that we never suggested amalgamation" . He stated " that we sided with the Ciskeians merely in sympathy with their position . We did not expect to gain anything from that. We have our own self-governing state. "" Now what is this about- face on the question of amalgamation with the Ciskei?
would have entered into these negotiations with all the tact and diplomacy that is required when a man is at a disadvantage on a bargaining point. The knobkerrie should be given to boys to throw at birds, rather than
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you still reading your paper,
the Daily Dispatch?
wielded over the Republican Government. If this Govemment can take advice it would
MR. GUZANA: Why is it that the hon . the Chief Minister will not state specifically what his attitude is towards the country outside the Transkei? This side of the House
assist it if it were to realise in facts and figures what 5 percent per annum reduction of the African population in the Western Cape
sees in this idea of amalgamation with the Ci skei an attempt to grab land, and this attempt to grab land is after the hon. the Chief Minister has foregone his claim to such land
means. At the present moment of unequal development between the Republic and the Transkei a 5 per cent reduction of African labour in the Westem Cape per annum is going to result in an influx of unemployed persons coming back to the Transkei , and no amount of effort will absorb that at the present uneconomic level of the Transkei . The policy of the Opposition would not create these problems because we would be belonging all the time to the Republic of South Africa and, as it is reported , the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic said at Payn's Farm " I need not be welcomed because I am in my own land. " Now we will require this Government to show between this
for, in accepting separate development, he accepted the confines ofthe Transkei and the fatuous explanation that he only seeks the Bantu areas of the Ciskei to be amalgamated with the Transkei is merely an apologia, not an explanation . The hon . the Chief Minister haslaid down certain principles which should control the flow of capital into the Transkei and the impression created in one's mind is that this Government seeks to give the Republican Government a monopoly in the industrialisation of the Transkei when industries are established within the borders of the
session and next session by figures to what extent their repre sentations have helped the African in the Transkei to retain his job in the Western Cape, and that at the next ses-
Transkei . But the history of all economic development in all backward states has shown quite distinctly that it is the private indivi-
98 .
sion
of Parliament we shall have a clear
Leader of the Opposition associating myself with the expressions of sympathy to the family of Mr. G.J. Olivier who passed away during the recess and I hope at a suitable time the hon. the Chief Minister will intro-
statement of the agreement between this Government and the Republican Government on this thorny separate development prick. You are asked to wear the shoe of separate
duce an unopposed motion of sympathy to the family . Whilst we are happy to see that tourists are flowing into the Transkei, we would point out to the Government the need for arranging adequate facilities for these tourists to enjoy the beautiful sights and scenery of the Transkei . We feel that tourist camps could be put up, and along the coast there could be accommodation where these
development, and if it pinches you are the only one to walk lamely across the floor here. I am pleased to note that the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance is concerned with the proper use of moneys allotted to it by this House, and that it would like to reduce extravagance and misappropriation to a minimum . One would have liked, however, to see that the surpluses that are constantly being shown are reduced so that estimates have a proper relationship to the expenditure of his Department. On the 31st March , 1965 , there was in this Department a surplus of R98,512-31 . In 1966 the surplus as shown is R142,601-92 . This is revealed in the report of the Controller and Auditor-General for the financial year 1965/1966 . The view of this side of the House is that these surpluses should be reduced considerably as they do tend to tie up money which would otherwise be available for essential services in the
people could come in and fend for themselves if they do not want to go to a hotel. This will mean increased capital spent in the Transkei whilst they enjoy our scenery without diminishing its value. We do seek to see the development of the Transkei going by leaps and bounds, and that we have to accelerate the pace of the ox-wagon to that of the sputnik. If this is to be done we must shed the policy of separate development for it has many inhibitions. Once stop inviting White capital into the Transkei and putting restrictions that are almost prohibitive - after all , if a man is going to invest thousands of rand in the Transkei he must have security, for Governments like the one we have have
country. The appointment of chiefs and headmen brings us to another matter for comment. The Opposition is concerned over the fact that chiefs and headmen, by reason of the fact that they are administrative officers , are presumed to be members of the Governing party and this tendency to presuppose their political allegiance was evidenced by the invitations sent out to headmen and chiefs to
a tendency to nationalise private industries and take them over after the style of President Nasser. I thank you, Mr. Chairman . The debate was adjourned.
attend the conference of the TNIP which was held just before this session . Many chiefs
House Resumed.
and headmen feel obliged to honour these invitations although their political allegiance may be elsewhere. I have knowledge of chiefs who are members of the Opposition who received this invitation signed by the secretary of the TNIP, to the effect that "the hon. the Chief Minister.... " instead of "the Leader of the TNIP...." We find further that some of these chiefs and headmen have received instructions not to arrange meetings for the Opposition party. This is a very grave tendency which seeks to undermine the right of the elected member to meet the electorate. We hope that the Department of the Chief Minister will put right this tendency and desist from presuming the political allegiance of the chiefs and headmen in the Transkei . One headman indicated to a
The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 3rd May, 1967. WEDNESDAY, 3RD MAY, 1967. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House now sits in committee.
member of the Opposition that he would not call a meeting for that Opposition member because at a previous meeting one of the TNIP supporters had expressed himself against the policy of the Democratic Party. At the last congress of the TNIP the headmen were told specifically that they should not arrange meetings for theOpposition and we think this is a dangerous abuse of the position whereby the chiefs and headmen are administratively under the Department of the Chief Minister. Let it be known that
MR . R. MSENGANA: I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee. MR. J.M. SINEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister which was tabled and which mentions sepa-
headmen are recommended by the tribe and that it is the choice of the people rather than the choice of the Chief Minister which decides the position . I am in my capacity as
rate development . I give separate development my whole-hearted support. Before I
99 .
speak at length I would like to touch on this very important amendment. I think our chiefs in the Transkei who made it possible for us to live under the policy of separate development show their love for us because had they not taken the initiative we should be living in the quagmire of multi-racialism. I will now explain why I favour separate development. It will be recalled that at the first session of this Assembly there was a hue and cry about the improvement of our educational system and there was really no contention over that move . Ever since then
MR. SINEKE : I say without fear that their district in the Emboland region takes the lead and that is the type of thing we expect from members of this Assembly . They should not follow the example of the hon. Mr. Luwaca who goes out to influence the people against rehabilitation . They should remember that that is out of date. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to point out a few aspects in regard to the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister. In his speech he spoke of our fatherland, the Transkei , but we say our fatherland is South Africa as a
we have seen the clear benefit of that policy in the Transkei. We are again fortunate in having Government leaders who know their job. (Interjections) Today we see things which were unknown in the Transkei because the Transkei Government has taken on married
whole. In his speech I realised that he was trying to draw the nationalists into the Transkei so that they could take over, with the object that it should be kept for the Black man. There are facts which everyone knows , that some of the traders in the Transkei are sent out and at the same time a number of Europeans are brought into the Transkei. It is like when the waves recede and return to the shore. Now the truth about the Transkei
women as teachers . Today a married woman with a baby who gets no support from her husband can approach the Government for a job. That is unprecedented in this territory . Great numbers have joined the profession and our children are progressing. We have about 6,000 teachers in the Transkei who are
is that there are things happening which indicate that these people who have come into the Transkei have come to stay . Now there is a project under construction of about seven storeys, and the object is that these people should stay here permanently and it is quite clear that people are being oppressed as this seven-storey building is being constructed. People who are working now will suffer as a result. In his speech the hon . the Chief Minister said he does not agree with White capital coming into the Transkei. That gives us the impression that there are some people who are welcome in the Transkei and others who are rejected . Those who are wanted here
adequately paid . Apart from that we are witnesses to something which was unknown in the Transkei till now. I refer to the earmarking of certain money by the Government for people to go and study at University . As it is, some of our youths have been sent to University by money voted by the Government. That is proof that the Government is in responsible hands. I will now pass on to some other form of progress which we have seen in our Government. I refer to agriculture. Here again we were fortunate in having in charge of the Department of Agriculture a very good leader. He tours every part of the Transkei encouraging improvement in methods of agriculture. It will be recalled that for quite some time the Transkei was known to grow only mealies and kaffircorn. (Interjections) . Here again , as a result of the responsibility of the Minister, we now grow coffee, tea and cotton . Formerly these were products known only to Natal , not to the Transkei, but today as a result of the sense of responsibility of the hon . Minister these
are those who are still running their businesses , and the BIC syndicate. Now those people are a syndicate to run businesses here. All we require is that whoever has the money should have ample opportunity to run a business . This has happened in other countries but here it is only a certain group which is allowed. That is what makes us suspicious , that a certain group of people should be allowed and others not. In that case he suggests that the Transkei Government should contribute 51 per cent so that wherever that business is carried on it will be under the jurisdiction of this Government. What I cannot understand is that when one
things will help the Transkei. Again , progress has been made in other respects . We know that before any nation can be a nation the people must have enough food. We also know that "mens sana in corpore sano " . (Laughter) My hon. friend, the reverend gentleman , must please listen to these facts. Again I want to tell him about two other members of the Opposition and I wish to follow it up. There are two hon . members from the Opposition who are co-operating with the Government and they belong to the Emboland region. The first hon. member I would like to mention is Mr. Jafta, who is the president of a farmers' co-operative society , and the other one is Chief S.S. Majeke , who is a member of the amaBele tribe . I congratulate these two members for their co-operation
is running a business one should be under the thumb of the Government. The reason why we want more business is that that will bring in more sources of employment for the people of the Transkei. Where there is work there is happiness and it will enable the Transkei citizens to work nearer their homes. One thing makes us sad and that is that we should have to pack our bags and go to other countries. That means that the children will not know their fathers. (Interjections) What I mean is that they work far away from home and they cannot come and sleep at home , and it is very important that a child should be brought up by the mother and the father. In no other nation does a child grow up without knowing his father. Even the Europeans
with the Government so far as agriculture is concerned . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
100.
here have their families with them.
Coming to territorial claims gentlemen , we do not want to over-emphasize this point. I think the late Honourable Prime Minister, Dr. Verwoerd, expressly put this in Parliament in 1964 and there can be no deviation from it. He said: " The boundaries of the African Reserves would be the boundaries determined by history ." It is well known that the first boundaries between White and Black were the Fish River and the Kei . How that is going to be affected depends on the Republican Government and the Government of the Transkei , but it is a historical fact.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They have no properties here. MR. JAFTA: The children are the origin of a nation and that is why I say a child must know his father. MR .
P. SOBAHLE : Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , in applying myself to the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister I will start with his separate development policy . The large majority of the present generation, both White and Black, is unbending
MR. GUZANA: May I ask you one question while you are speaking on this point?
in its support of this policy because it is the only policy as far as this generation is con cemed which promises well for the welfare of everybody in this country. Many government policies and philosophies and ideologies have been experimented with and have proved a failure.
MR . SOBAHLE: Question time is over.
MR .
GUZANA : The hon . the Chief Minister says the White spots in the Transkei should be zoned Black , and speaking of the Ciskei he says the White spots in the Ciskei should not be zoned Black - for example , East London and Queensto . How do wn you reconcile the two ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Hear, hear. MR. SOBAHLE : We are living now in a country of heterogeneous society . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday that every government aims at peace , good neighbourliness and orderliness , but he for-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Port St. John's and Matatiele are not zoned Black.
got to mention that in a multi-racial society internal peace is not there. (Interjections ) Let us look at Cyprus. You have got Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots . That is a multi-racial society and they formed a constitution by which each section is represented in Parliament, but because the Turkish Cypriots were in the minority they were oppressed and they have since discarded any representation in Parliament, hence the
MR . GUZANA: The trouble is they are full of contradictions. MR. SOBAHLE : Mr. Chairman, I will quote further what the Hon. the Prime Minister said: " There is absolutely no doubt that as far as the Transkei is concemed all the small White areas in the Transkei would in course of time be absorbed . " You will find
United Nations peace-keeping force. he was specifically referring to the Transkei after he had said the boundaries of the Reserves would be determined by history.
MR . GUZANA: Is it not because the Greek Cypriots are not sufficiently largehearted to accommodate the Turks?
MR. GUZANA: 1964 is part of history
now. MR. SOBAHLE: Mr. Chairman, I will not reply to interjections. A man becomes noble
MR . SOBAHLE: I think the other side
in his own eyes and in the eyes of his oppressors when he separates himself from his human brothers who refuse him that he should assert his identity in the majority , and goes to establish himself elsewhere. And those that have thwarted and trodden on
should be the last to worry themselves about independence. They should not be asking questions as to when independence will come. Only this side should worry itself about independence . (Interjections) MR . C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to disabuse this House of many fallacious statements which have been made from that side of the House. I suppose we are not altogether free in this House, so I will decide to be moderate . (Laughter) The first fallacious statement is that of talking of separation of races. Try to make us understand what you mean when you talk of separation. Ever since the time of the Bunga and the Territorial Authority there have always been Europeans muddling things in this House. Does a man cease to be White when
him may find in the slave of yesterday their equal . MR. GUZANA: But that is the philosophy of the animal world. (Laughter) MR. SOBAHLE: I am not going to bother with the hon . the Leader of the Opposition . Coming now to independence , it is a well known fact that any self-governing state has its ultimate as independence . How and when that self-governing state is going to achieve that is a matter for the government of the day. Every reasonable government should know that a long incubation towards independence will lead to frustration and apathy. The Government is not going to be goaded .
he becomes a seconded official ? (Laughter) So it is most unreasonable to be deceiving the people of the Transkei that races will ever be separated . Europeans are indispen-
101 .
sable to Africans , just as Africans are indispensable to Europeans . So we are wasting time trailing this issue of independence. Now I will go on and show you that the Government is not honest. You talk of cor-
be given basic human rights. Let us stop talking about separation and racialism and ask for human rights . MR . H.H. NOLUTSHUN GU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand here to support the policy speech of the hon. the Chief
porations which are intended to develop the Transkei. You talk of BIC and Xhosa Development Corporation . Now how are these be-
Minister. Before I say anything I would like to refer to the speech made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , whom I respect. Yesterday he told this House that some of the chiefs were told not to arrange meetings
longing to the African? The truth is that the BIC is the Broederbond Investment Corporation, not the Bantu Investment Corporation . (Laughter) Who are the shareholders in it? Is there one African who is a shareholder in
for members of the Opposition . Unfortunately he does not know what type of man he is . I will tell him what his followers said about
the BIC? Can't you see that this has been created in order to enrich the Afrikaners of this country? (Interjections) You can see there is an exorbitant interest charged and
me when I was elected. They had never seen me and did not know me then . They said : "Don't vote for that man. He is an old drunkard ." (Laughter) Another hon. member said: "Don't vote for that man because he
yet the man who is buying the shop is an African who is trying to stand on his feet. So the Africans will never be able to buy properties. All they are doing is that they are bringing more and more poor Whites into the Transkei to replace the English-speaking in this country. So, hon . members of the House, let us stop living in the world of Utopia and come to the realities of life. The
is goint to die very soon from T.B. " Those were some of the remarks made by your followers. I have never taken strong drink , nor have I had T.B. (Laughter) They have failed to tell their members what their policy is. All they do is to criticize a man and persuade people to vote for them . Why not tell people whatyour policy is? Your assessment moneys are given to Europeans . (Interjections ) Now coming to the point about the Europeans coming into the Transkei , I shall ask you to turn to page 9 of the policy speech where the hon. the Chief Minister says : " I have often stated it as my policy that the riches and potential of the Transkei should be preserved and developed for its own sons and daughters. " The hon. Mr. Luwaca has got 14 children but he still invites Europeans
hon. Mr. Sineke has talked of many teachers who have been employed - lady teachers , he says. Now it is true many Africans have been employed, but just analyse this type of employment. Don't you see that where one European was a teacher, ten Africans have taken his place because the principle of master and servant still exists in the Transkei , although it is supposed to be a selfgoverning state . The moneys used in the Transkei are claimed to belong to the Republic, so deceive the Kaffir and tell him you are giving more employment opportunities when you are actually using the money for many Africans which used to be used for one European. A man must be able to keep his children and take them to the doctor and keep them in amenities. While we are disagreeing
to come here. Who is going to feed his children? The hon. members on the Opposition side say they want immediate independence, but where have you seen a woman getting married today and tomorrow she has a baby? (Laughter) We are given these moneys for the betterment of the Transkei , but you want
with the Government party, I honestly believe they are puppets and stooges , all of them .
us to misuse it so that you can turn round
(Interjections) There is not one man on that side who does any thinking for himself. (Laughter) You must have everything prepared for you by the loaned secretaries. You are supposed to have a term of five years . In 1964 you asked to be granted the Department of Health and the country wanted to see what was going to happen. Is the Republican Government going to grant that department to you? During 1965 you further asked for more departments and the honourable Minister of
and say we have misappropriated it. Referring to influx control , the regulations have been tightened because the Europeans whom you have invited are impeding progress. (Interjections) All I can say , Mr. Leader of the Opposition, is please wam your followers that they should preach the policy . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the Son of God once said: Forgive them for they know not what they do. It is a pity that we have had to listen to such a speech from a man of the calibre of the Chief Minister - a man who has done history. He knows that over three hundred years ago van Riebeeck settled in the Cape to introduce what would subsequently be known
the Republic comes here to say that nothing is going to be given to you. All that is going to be done is that these things are going to be shelved and they are under consideration. He told you that this is his country and there is no need to welcome him when he comes into the Transkei. So when are we going to unite this side of the House and
as multi-racialism . That is , his settlement in the Cape virtually meant that the state which was to follow would be multi-racial , which was subsequently made more complex by the introduction of Indians into Natal by the then Government. Government after Gov-
that and make legitimate demands? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When you come to your senses.
ernment of the Republic has tried without success to use a policy, and if the termino-
MR . DIKO : All we want is that we must 102.
being encouraged to 3 buy them through the BIC and the BIC is a govemment institution so that it actually means the nationalising of industries in the Transkei and ultimately the BIC may eventually buy the whole of the Transkei . So we are for a policy that is going to be of use to the people of the Transkei .
logy is different it is the same policy in this country. The position is that if we face facts as they are in the Republic of South Africa , we are so intertwined with the Europeans that everywhere we look, even in the Assembly, is multi-racialism and so is the composition in the rest of the Republic . It has been unfortunate that the Republican
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I shall draw your attention to the amendments of which the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota gave notice yesterday to move today. I shall now call upon the hon . member to move his amendment .
Government, in its eamest bid to give us a Bantustan in the Transkei , finds that our Ministry has made it a Baboonstan instead . Our Ministers will ape the boss even where it is most uncalled for, just as a baboon does. (Laughter) They are clinging tenaciously today to separate development although we all agreed to do away with it. They continue to favour influx control because the boss says it is good. My hon . friend , the Chief Minister, was quoted at his installation as paramount chief of Emigrant Tembuland as saying that he was a statesman of such standing that he could compare favourably with any other statesman of international standing. If that be the case then what is his fear in leading the whole of South Africa as a statesman? Where is the pride in leading a Bantustan which I may even call a Native location stretching from the Kei to Umzimkulu? Now there is also talk of home-
MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the amendment is as follows : "That Vote 1 , Chief Minister and Finance, be reduced by a sum of R3,800 in respect of the Chief Minister's salary. " Mr. Chairman , the reason why we would like this vote to be reduced is because there has been maladministration of the finances of the Transkei. Before I elaborate on this I would like to say that this will make it clear that we have no confidence in the Chief Minister of the Transkei. He has con-
lands by them, and the hon . the Chief Minister mentioned it in his policy . Now whose homeland is Maclear just next-door? Whose homeland is Port St. John's? Whose homeland is Matatiele and Umzimkulu ? One just wonders what geography he did at school, because when the Europeans came to this country there were Africans right from the Cape to Natal and the Free State. Are they now suggesting that all that country does not belong to the African people but to the Europeans? That is why we feel that the policy they are putting forward.... (Interjections) Now let us take the set-up as it is in the Transkei Govemment. You look round at
tradicted the views expressed in his manifesto, to the effect that "all the land in the Transkei should belong to the Bantu including the land in the 26 villages in the Transkei . Additional land , after consultation with the Republican Government, will be added to the Transkeian Territories. I refer to such districts as Queenstown , Lady Frere , Indwe, Maclear, Elliot , Ugie , Mount Currie , Harding and Port Shepstone. " THE CHIEF MINISTER: I spoke of the towns, not land. MR. NOTA: In his policy speech, however, he says : "It would obviously be most presumptuous and unrealistic of me to think
the six departments. The hon. the Chief Minister admitted one day that the people who are really managing these departments are the secretaries .
that purely White districts and huge White urban complexes such as East London , Queenstown or Port Shepstone , for that matter, should be incorporated into the Transkei. " These are two contradictory opinions coming from one man. To go further, Mr. Chairman, if we take a searching look into the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And their staff. MR. ZIBI : Yes, and they have told us that repeatedly . They are trying to train our people to take over gradually so that in the end their policy will be implemented. But what is the position today? You go into these departments and find young European boys having just left school coming into the employ of these departments , so in actual fact
estimates of expenditure for this year we will note that the vote for this year is certainly higher than those of the previous years as it amounts to R18,937,000 . One would think that a similar rise will be found in the moneys that are likely to pour into the Transkei but that is not the case. During the year 1965/1966 we had hoped that we would have R16,331,000 coming into the Transkei and the following year it was hoped to have R13,899,000 pouring into the coffers of the Transkei. I am trying to show that as far as that is concerned there is no increase in the money that comes to the Transkei. The question is - where does the
the position will remain as it is.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Nothing of the kind.
MR. ZIBI : I am trying to face facts as we see them. For example, there has been big talk about zoning of towns in the Transkei. Now the towns have been zoned but the Africans have not got the money to buy pro-
R18 million come from which goes to the expenditure of the Transkei ? It is clear that
perties. What is happening then? They are
103.
the moneys which were estimated for expenditure in the previous years have not been used at all. That is the reason why this year
hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the policy speech by the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei. I speak confidently ,
they can now tell us that they have this wonderful rise in the revenue fund. Many of
well aware that the Goverment supports and agrees with the policy speech of the Chief Minister. We have listened carefully to the remarks of the Opposition where they
the important projects that have been put forward have never been carried out in the Transkei. May I draw the attention of the House to page 21 of the financial report of this House. You will note , if you look care-
found fault with the policy speech. Like all the chiefs of Emboland , I also pay attention to the wishes and desires of my people. The hon. member from Pondol and made a very
fully, that R60,000 was apportioned to the building of a school in Lusikisiki. That money was not used. R50,000 was earmarked
fine comparison in regard to the sea and the waves receding and advancing. One can never tell because sometimes the tide is high and sometimes it is low. In his parable I find he did not in any way disprove the policy of separate development. (Interjections)
for putting up a school in the Matatiele district. Only R1000 was spent of that money. I would go further and refer to St. John's College , of which the hon. the Chief Minister said wonderful buildings would be put up which would change the appearance of Umtata. R100,000 R1000 was used. vote moneys to be but the money is Government done?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will re-
was set aside and only It is very clear that we used for certain projects not used. What has the This year they say they
mind the speaker that we are discussing the amendment by the hon . Mr. Nota in respect of Vote 1. CHIEF MOSHESH : Are we not discussing the policy speech of the Chief Minister?
have now increased the revenue fund. They have increased the remuneration of the members of this House and also the teachers .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. has moved that Vote 1 be reduced Nota Mr.
True enough, there is an increment in the salaries of teachers and there is also an
by the sum of R3,800 . That is the question under discussion .
increment in the stipends of members of this House, but the people who have the greatest increase are the six Ministers of the Gov-
Ministers. In the Republican Govemment the members receive 57 per cent of the Ministers ' salaries. It is therefore clear that
CHIEF MOSHESH : Now that my attention has been drawn to this , although I was already on the policy speech , I wish to say I wish to say I do not agree with this amendment. Like a proper Basuto child I can turn very quickly. (Laughter) For many years the hon. Mr. Nota has advocated a reduction in
the purpose of these projects not being carried out is to increase the salaries of the Ministers . I shall now refer to Vote 1 (H) on page 5 of the estimates. It is un-
the Cheif Minister's vote , so we knew what to expect. We can tell him we have qualified bookkeepers and accountants in this Government and what is recorded in the books here
worthy that there is an amount paid to the lower authorities by this Government. It would be appreciated if the hon. the Minister of Finance would state clearly which authorities are in receipt of this money. It is clear that the Government has not been keeping a watchful eye over these authorities and this is evidenced by the extravagance and wastefulness found in the records of those authorities. It becomes even clearer
shows exactly how all the money has been spent by the Goverment. He has referred to
ernment. I am trying to show that the stipends paid to members of the Assembly is only 24 per cent of the amount paid to the
the vote of R60,000 apportioned to the lower authorities. May I say that here we are concerned with administration . The Opposition does not say that there is no money, but all they say is that the money is being misused . They forget that they must accept what we as a Government tell them. ( Laughter) The hon. members on the other side refer to us as "illiterates ". That is an indication that if they do not respect this Government they will not respect any Government. I can assure you that this side of the House does not associate itselfwith the amendment by the hon. Mr. Nota. I regret that I did not note that the discussion was on the amendment.
when we hear the reply given to the question raised by the hon. Mr. Rajuili of Maluti , that in the Maluti regional authority R1,119 has gone astray. It becomes very clear that the hon. the Chief Minister and his Department are not keeping a watchful eye over the authority. If the financial records of the regional authorities were constantly under watch, these mishaps would not occur. Now let us look further at how the moneys are extravagantly spent by this Government.
The debate was adjourned. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , we have before us a long weekend and the members of this House have to travel quite a
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Time.
distance to get to their respective homes . Normally over the weekend these members
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman.
who come from very far remain here over the weekend, and therefore when we break at 4.30 very few of them are inconvenienced ,
CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and
104.
"
and we do feel now that members should be afforded this aftemoon in order to get back to their homes in time.
However, it is no intention of mine to order a roll call now but if this state of affairs continues I shall insist upon a roll call in future. We were scheduled to adjourn today at 3.45 , but the hon . the Chief Minister and the Leader of the Opposition and I consulted and we decided to adjourn now to enable
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We break at 3.45.
MR. GUZANA: I move this unopposed motion, Mr. Chairman, that we adjourn now to resume next week on Monday at 11o'clock.
members to get home. I therefore adjourn the Assembly until 11 a.m. on Monday. ぎょ
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , and hon . members , I think the members of this House should be honest. The Government has made a concession that we do not meet on Friday and that the members will be paid for that period. Now this is misusing the taxpayers' money when you have got to be paid when you have done no work.
with due respect, Sir, the Chairman has not got the right to adjoum the House unless there is a motion to that effect. He can only adjourn the House when the time for the adjournment comes. Sir, I move that this House adjours until Monday morning at 11 a.m. MR. GUZANA: I second.
MR . GUZANA: What about putting up your salary?
Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Government has been generous enough to say you can leave at 3.45.
The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Monday, 8th May, 1967. MONDAY, 8TH MAY, 1967.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : All transport has gone by that time and people will have to stay overnight.
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Normally we should carry on on Friday. This shows how inconsiderate they are with the taxpayers' money. The Leader of the Opposition does not even consult the Government about it.
The minutes of Wadnesday , 3rd May , 1967 , were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS.
MR. GUZANA: We did. My Whip consulted your Whip.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, I once more appeal to the Whips of both parties in connection with the non-attendance of members in this Assembly. We made a considerable concession last
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Government should have known about it.
MR. GUZANA: Ask your Whip. THE
CHIEF MINISTER:
Wednesday in adjourning so that the members could go home, and it was then hoped that they would be here in time this morning. It is regrettable to note that the members do not want to observe the correct hours in this
The Gover-
ment will not put up with this. We will not give you these days in future if you behave like this , and if you want to adjourn at 1 o'clock you will not be paid. I hold the purse.
Assembly. The Whips must see to it that those who do not attend do not get their salaries and allowances .
MR. GUZANA: Never. This House has THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman
agreed that we be paid. (Laughter)
and hon . members , I have to announce that this momingthe Ministers are holding a very important meeting involving a motion which was passed here some time ago and they will be here shortly, as soon as they have decided that issue . The Minister of the In-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Chairman made a ruling that we have to be here for three hours and before we have even been here for two hours you want to go round the streets . Where do you want to go? Your home is here. (Interjections)
The Minister of the Interior , however , Chief J. Moshesh, is indisposed . He is in bed at his home. Chief Hohnson Jumba is still in hospital.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , the House will adjourn to return at 2.15 p.m.
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
AFTERNOON SESSION. House Resumed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that the House now sits in committee of supply .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , it is regrettable that once again I have to remark on the failure of the members to attend.
MR. R. MSENGANA: I second .
105.
Agreed to.
Allowances and presents to headmen and chiefs . This side of the House is ready to support any amount of expenditure with regard to chiefs and headmen but we cannot support any item with regard to presents and rations to chiefs , for that would mean that probably not all the chiefs get these presents and rations. It is probable that chiefs on the Opposition side and some on the Government side do not receive these . We would rather that both items 1 and 2 under J should be put together and out of that the allowances to the headmen and chiefs could be made.
House in Committee . The debate on Vote 1 , Chief Minister and Finance, was resumed.
THE CHIEF
MINISTER : Mr. Chairman ,
shall we continue dealing with one sub-item in this matter? The hon. member could move the next amendment and debate that, but if we continue discussing the one sub-item it means we are wasting the time of the House . I think we finished that sub-item the other day and we can proceed to the next one . I
THE CHIEF MINISTER : got an amendment under J.
still have a chance to reply.
You haven't
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. mem-
MR. NO TA : I am speaking of your ) I would vote as a whole . (Interje ction like the hon . Ministe to makse it quite r clear becaus I note that in the Estima tes e to chiefs the allowa of Expend iture nces . r a b and headm en re eing educed
bers , I have not closed the debate on that item and I shall give a chance to the Opposition side. MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members ....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Are you pas-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that?
sing on to item ( ii)?
MR .
MR. NOTA: No , I am continuing where I left off.
NOTA:
Last year there was an
amount of R145,000 R139,000.
and this year it is
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : But we had THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is headmen, not chiefs .
already dealt with that item .
MR . NOTA: It shows a reduction of R6,000. It would appear that the hon. the Chief Minister has not got the report for last year and if he has not got it at hand he will not see the amounts I am referring to . Further, Mr. Chairman , I would like to
MR. NOTA: I am entitled to speak three times . Mr. Chairman and hon . members , when we closed on Wednesday I was still attempting to show the session about funds that were being misused. I showed the House how much was lost in the tribal authority funds.
point out that these Estimates do not give sufficient information . It would be wise to put the two columns of increase and decrease side by side for if you put in the estimates for 1967 and 1968 it will be seen at once whether there is an increase or a decrease .
Today I shall try to show the House about funds which are being lost with regard to transport. During the year 1964/1965 the amount of money lost in regard to transport was R6,279. In 1965/1966 the loss was even higher. It was R34,216. How long will the Government continue with this waste? We
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want to be the secretary of my Department?
have not been advised of the ways and means whereby they are making an effort to reduce this heavy financial loss. Let me pass on now to the question of the meat factory in the Transkei . In nis budget the
MR . NOTA: What we would like to see clearly is the increases and decreases . The financial year 1966/1967 is now over and we would like to see the actual expenditure for that year .
hon. the Chief Minister made no reference at all to the meat factory for this year. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is financed by the development fund. Why should I budget for it?
MR. Z. CHEMANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to oppose the motion by the Opposition Minister of Finance (Laughter) who is trying to reduce the Chief Minister's salary . There is a song sung here in this Parliament which has no effect.
MR. NOTA: You always make mention of it. It is noted on page 34 of the report that this factory has not brought in any increase in funds . That same report shows a deficit of R6,556. Will the House please note that this side of the House is not prepared to support a state of affairs such
The Transkei Government has proved beyond reasonable doubt they are efficient in running the country . Ever since this Government took over there has been a regular increase in the amount of money . You will understand that it is a new Govern-
as is reported in regard to the meat factory. I will proceed to page 5 of the Estimates of Expenditure . You will note under J,
ment and of course they are being criticized . You should recall all those countries which
106 .
at R176 and that is all they receive . There is no rise in their stipend. (Interjections) I am referring only to the stipend received only by chiefs , not to the stipend received as members of this Parliament. The chiefs receive R14 a month and there is no rise in their stipends. If you read the Estimates carefully you will find it is so. I would like to make it clear that the hon. the Chief
have been given independence for example, Basutoland . (Interjections) Fortunately we have a Government with geniuses as leaders . It cannot be disputed that our Chief Minister is capable of handling the Finance Department , more than other new governments which have been established . In Basutoland , for instance , they are going from place to place asking for more money to run the country . (Interjections)
Minister merely pays lip-service to the chiefs. We have noted it as a particular thing where the chiefs receive circulars to say they must not accept any funds except their regular stipends . If he had any love for the chiefs he would have called
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
MR . CHEMA NE : We have no more money than most of these new countries . All the Opposition wants is to retard the progress of this Government . (Interjecti ) ons There is a gradual increase in our finances in this country without overtaxing the people . (Interjectio ) ns THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
receive a very high salary of R66, whereas he was receiving monthly an amount lof
MR. CHEMANE : What do you expect to get now? Unfortunately the hon.
R170 . How can you have confidence in a Government that does not take cognizance of the positions of other chiefs?
member, the Minister of Religion , is just a jester. I am trying now to give you an example of Basutoland, the newly independent state . The money they get there is half the money we pay in the Transkei . I do not know whether you expect the Transkei to fly. We have managed to get money to run this country following our policy
TUNG SHT EDUCATION : OF MINISTER THE Come back to the vote. ФИАТОЙ ЯМ CHIEF MAJEKE : The people who altoare being turned out of the work centres will come and look for work in the Transkei . mordet diw tech brotle CHIEF MINISTER : The hon. THE member must confine himself to the amendment that was put in by the member across the floor. He is talking 6 nonsense. We are .M .29mit appealing to you , Mr. Chairman. p9nbow Bo bezolo sw
of separate development. Mr. Chairman , I think it is a mere waste of time , this suggestion of reducing the Minister's salary. (Interjections ) I have already said before it is an old song. We handle the public's money and we know what we are discussing here . It is useless to discuss something as you do , without leading anywhere. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , with those few words I would suggest that the Chief Whip should have the matter settled now. You are misusing public money . CHIEF
S.S.
MAJEKE :
Mr.
CHIEF MAJEKE : He feels the pinch because he is responsible for all this . We want it to be noted that when we suggest his stipend be reduced we want that he should not be fed alone. I want you to know that the people who are being turned out from Cape Town are coming in and they is. will want to know where the money 26W
Chairman
and hon. members , in supporting this amendment I would like to make it clear to the chiefs , because I am a chief and I find
(Interjections) ions) wall
they do not know what they are talking about. If you have read these Estimates thoroughly you will note that the increase
please.
THE
That
is
I
did
Order, CHAIRMAN : JOR 5768 vdsid
CHIEF MAJEKE : The people who come from work centres will want employment. You will have to be watched over carefully so that you do not spend any of this money. You will have to pay more money to the homeguards that are being used to protect the chiefs . You know this bird we call an owl I want to show that the chiefs will
is only affecting the Chief Minister, the Ministers and the paramount chiefs . He has no love for the chiefs , except by word of mouth . THE CHIEF MINISTER : personal reflection.
DEPUTY
IS,PEX zew
WC302
us
them privately and spoken to them and not made this a public statement. (Interjections) One member on the Government side made this statement to the people . He told the people that Members of Parliament
a
be like owls in future. (Laughter) An owl is afraid to go out in the sunlight and if you show fear now, how much more will you show when the people come from the towns . (Interjections) Further, the hon. the Chief Minister has now deprived the chiefs and local authorities of looking after local funds. He now entrusts this to the magistrate . He says that they are spending the money in their own interests . (Interjections) He wants the chiefs to spend much of their time going between their residences and the
CHIEF MAJEKE : We would like it to be very clear that in wishing his vote to be reduced we want the stipends of the chiefs to be raised. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you say the stipends of the paramount chiefs should be reduced? CHIEF MAJEKE : I would like you to note that the allowance to chiefs starts
107 .
finance the Sons of the Transkei . You had better withdraw that. You are insulting
magistrate's office paying in the funds . I want to say clearly that he does not like the chiefs but they are not aware of this . I was surprised when one of the chiefs rose to speak last week and he did not know what to say, and he was told while he was on his feet that one day he would vote for a motion to kill himself. (Laughter) If it is maintained that headmen and chiefs may not have any rights and that they should not receive any moneys from their people , then their stipends ought to be raised . The last speaker has just said that the stipends of chiefs are being increased regularly .
people who are not in this House . MR . NOTA: Who is that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The information service . (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Can you substantiate that? If not you had better withdraw the statement. You cannot insult the Sons of the Transkei if you cannot substantiate the statement.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon . Mr. Nota to move his second amendment.
MR. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, I will put aside the matter referring to the Sons of the Transkei . Under item E · Miscellaneous Expenses the reason why I wanted the amount voted for each item to appear opposite the item for 1967 is because I wanted this to appear in the report made by...
MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :"That Vote 1 , Sub-head E , items 6 and 7 be reduced by R900 each respectively; and item 9 reduced by R1,750." CHIEF D.D.P. Mr. Chairman .
NDAMASE :
THE get that.
CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot You are asking for the moon.
MR. NOTA: We are not able to find what the expenditure was under information services and under entertainment in respect of committees and conferences . I do not
I second,
MR. NOTA : I would first like to ask the hon. Minister what he means on page 5, item 6 , in respect of Miscellaneous Expenses Official entertainment in respect of committees , conferences and visitors ; and also item 7 · Information services .
see why the Department of Finance should find it difficult to do this when it is part of their duty, unless there is something they do not want to make known . I thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman, I stand to say that whatever the hon . the Minister of Finance has decided should remain unaltered. I think that in all the the hon. member has said he has failed to show any reason for his amendment. I think he should have tried to show this
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You must ask before you move . MR . NOTA: It is very difficult for me to understand item 7 · Information services . The Republican Government has the Department of Information and that department serves this Bantustan as well .
House how the money should have been used · not that the Minister did not use the money as it should have been used. One can
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , the hon . member's amendment is tantamount to a motion because we are discussing a matter which is now almost a motion before the House .
see that no good criticisms were put before the House . All they were trying to do was to criticize at all costs. Take item 6 , Vote EOfficial entertainment in respect of committees , conferences and visitors . No reason can be put forward to show that the Government should not spend money on these things , except that that particular individual fails to recognize the Government. What conMEMBER : OPPOSITION
Now he is raising the same issues which were raised last year. There has been no increase in this vote at all. I would understand if there had been an increase . In terms of rule 38 ( 1) it shall be out of order to attempt to reconsider a specified question on which the Assembly has taken a decision during any previous session . This matter was discussed even in 1964, 1965 and
ferences are you talking about? TNIP conferences?
this question of information services . we be discussing the same thing year? I submit that in terms of this he is not entitled to move this amend-
MR . MSENGANA : Recently the hon. the Chief Minister informed this House in his report of various visitors from all over the country coming to the Transkei . A man who does not favour this Government will definitely oppose arrangements made for visi-
MR. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, this is not a motion . It is an amendment on the budget. This vote , Sir, is an amount that is being supplied to the Sons of the Transkei.
tors to the Transkei . The hon. member, Mr. Majija, just now remarked that we are arranging for the Swahilis to visit us . We as a Government welcome all other states
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is an insult. The information services do not
who are independent as we are in the Transkei . (Interjections) Coming to information services , we are not surprised that the hon .
1966 Shall every ruling ment.
108.
CHIEF NDAMASE : You have actually done away with the free scholarships . That is the money we require rather than money for entertainment .
member objects to the question of information officers . They have already said that they do not favour information officers and the reason is that they are the arms and ammunition against the Government .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why don't you say it must be reduced and the amount added to scholarships ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Said by Ahrenstein.
CHIEF NDAMASE : You estimate according to mathematical principles . (Interjections) It shows that you must spend money without following the appropriation . (Interjections ) Please give me a chance so that when we come to the Education Vote we
MR . MSENGANA: My hon . friend from Engcobo states that he hates these information officers because they expose everything that is said. The Department of Information is important because many of our people are not as educated as we are and if they approach other people they may perhaps be misled . (Interjections) They may be misled by you . Mr. Chairman , I stand in support of these two votes remaining unchanged . All I can tell this hon . member from Engcobo who keeps making a noise about nothing, is that I will sweep him right outside.
will discuss
question of classrooms.
MR. P.S. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in regard to what the hon . the Chief Minister has said I support him whole-heartedly. We have listened to the discussion of both sides and most of what was said was a repetition of last year. We are here not because we follow the Chief (InterjecMinister because he is a chief tions)
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I thought the hon. the Chief Minister would stand up and ask the last speaker to confine himself to the subject. I agree with the Chief Minister
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I appeal to the members not to interrupt the speaker because that interferes with the interpre-
that the expenditure has been reduced from what it was previously . During the year 1966/1967 the estimate was R37,600 and this year it has been reduced to R28,000 ,
tation and the stenographer is therefore unable to hear what the interpreter is saying. MR. SIGCAU: Now you have been told , hon. member, so try to give me a chance . These moneys tabled here for us have been audited by the Government auditors , who have explained how these moneys are used . We do not see what they see . All that we see each year is the progress that is made annually. Everyone would like to see what is happening and whether they are going astray . I am of opinion that if the electorate could see the people they have elected
but according to the mover of the amendment he is requesting for further reduction . If you look at the Controller and AuditorGeneral's report, on page 10 you will find in paragraph 3 , Excess Provision in relation to Ultimate Expenditure , the actual expenditure was , if I am not mistaken, R4,067 while the vote was R15,500 , so it means that approximately three-quarters was saved on the expenditure . That shows clearly that this vote should be further reduced from what it is . If you take it from 1965/1966 financial year, when the sum
here , they would be very embarrassed. All the electorate see is that the Transkei Government is going forward . This is achieved as a result of the Chief Minister and the other Ministers . We are not surprised by those who are criticizing. Certainly, nobody can ever satisfy them. A man who has got brains will do just as he is doing now and the members on this side will
of approximately R11,000 was saved , that is about three-quarters of the estimated expenditure on this particular sub-vote E. Coming to the 1966/1967 financial year, the amount was R37,600 . In 1966/1967 the money estimated to be spent should have been R9,000 and during this year it ought to have been reduced jurther to R7,000.
definitely see that something is done and achieved . As a result we find that even our friends enjoy the privileges and fruits , and then when they come inside they will say there is nothing which is being done wrong. We support this vote whole-heartedly and we do not have any doubts because what happened yesterday will continue to happen. In regard to other remarks about those who have been threatened , there is no such thing. This Government does not threaten anybody because people see what the Government does with its money . There are schools too , and nothing has been said yet about the schools. (Interjections) The hon. member across there threatens that I
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do you estimate mathematically or according to the needs at the present moment? CHIEF NDAMASE : But you estimate and you don't know exactly what you spend. If you estimate mathematically you estimate from what you actually spent in the previous financial year . THE CHIEF MINISTER: penditure can be more .
the
But the ex-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You seem to be following the doctrine of reductio absurdum. (Laughter)
shall not return home. He has only one road and I have several roads . The reason is that he is trying to be destructive and not constructive. (Interjections) I will ask you to
109 .
in a white area .
stop those remarks . I hope the whole House will vote for this and forget about these new auditors springing up here . Thank
MEMBER : OPPOSITION made to be repealed .
you , Mr. Chairman . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the hon . Mr. Nota aware that he has made no reference to item 9?
THE
CHIEF
MINISTER:
Laws
By
are
whom?
OPPOSITION MEMBER: By Parliament , of course.
MR. NOTA: We talked about that. THE THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Well , at this juncture I think I shall have to close the debate on amendments (i) and (ii) . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not going to waste time replying to all the nonsensical speeches which have been uttered by several of the members of the Opposition relating to
people who do not live in this country. So far as South Africa is concerned , the policy of the country is cut and dried. Now questions have been categorically directed to the members of the Opposition to state how they could achieve their multi-racial policy. Here is the Constitution under which the Transkei Legislative Assembly was established. Now could they alter the provisions of this Constitution? (Interjections) You have no power to amend this Constitution . (Interjections)
B.S.
RAJUILI :
Who
amends it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Keep quiet. Your education does not allow you to understand what the provisions of this Constitu-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I will now turn to the question of influx control. I wonder if, Mr. Chairman , I would be acting contrary to the rules of this House if I say it is a pity that the whole of the Opposition in front of me is composed of stupid men or are they pretending not to know the laws of this country? In 1945, long before the Transkei Constitution Act was passed, the Republican Government passed a law known as the Urban Areas Consolidated Act which
and what you will do in order to upset the status quo is to cause a revolution in the country on the directions of Bram Fischer and Ahrenstein. So I need not waste my time because you are propagating a policy that will never come in this country and the people that you you go about telling stand for a multi-racial policy . With whom are you going to multi-racialize?
With
know
man in the street pay in respect of taxes ?
(Interjections) You must tell the country that you are a revolutionary Opposition
MEMBER :
You
Transkei is to see to the position of the man in the street. That is what my budget shows . MR. C.S. MDA: And how much does the
tion are. The Republican Government says that in South Africa there will be a separation of races and that is the Government that can only amend this Constitution .
OPPOSITION
MINISTER :
of certain White people in the Transkei . (Interjections) Who wants to own any properties in the White areas ? Now, Sir, I do not want to come to this question of independence . I have already dealt with it but I think my hon . friend from Maluti was misled by a certain White man with whom he was travelling round , while he was preaching the sowing of castor seed in the Transkei . In our own view that White man was not genuine in preaching the sowing of castor seed. He was said to be trying to break the Transkei Independence Party . We take his call for independence as a big joke . These men on this side of the House (as you see , we now have about seventy brainy men) (Laughter) are not going to be led into trouble by a sole prodigal son who was hoodwinked by a certain Jew from Johannesburg. You can see how quiet he is in the Chamber. He realises he is talking nonsense . What we are concerned about in the Transkei is the economic development of this country . What we are concerned about in the
my policy speech, but I want to make it clear that in so far as the policy of separate development is concerned my hon. friends across the floor are trying to emulate
MR.
CHIEF
perfectly well that this Constitution has made it possible for the Transkeian citizens to acquire properties in what used to be a White area, but you are confusing the issue if you are not deliberately acting as stooges
provided for the removal of the African people from the towns .
the
Whites . (Laughter)
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Do you like it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If you haven't got the brains to understand what is meant by multi-racialism it is not for me to educate you .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not a matter of liking it. It is a matter of what the law is in the country. OPPOSITION
MR. RAJUILI : What is your understanding of it?
MEMBER :
Whose
law?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is not a platform for you to go and fight against the Republican Government. If you want to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position in this country is that the law of South Africa is that you cannot have any property
fight against them go to the White Parliament in Cape Town . This side of the House
110.
have your own building societies? There is nothing to stop the Africans from establishing building societies. (Interjections) In the meantime we have Government agencies to advance you loans . (Interjections)
will persistently request the Republican Government to allow Transkeian citizens to go and work in the towns .
What if they
OPPOSITION MEMBER: don't allow them? THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
We
are
THE please.
not
prepared to listen to the nonsensical speeches by the brainless Opposition . Now, Mr. Chairman , coming to the question of amalgamation of the Ciskei and Transkei I must just remind members that the question of amalgamation of these two areas is a sine qua non. It will happen whether you like it or not. It is not a matter of territorial claims . It is provided for in an Act of Parliament . Whether you do not want the expansion of the boundaries of the Ciskei
MEMBER:
did
He
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
THE CHIEF MINISTER: My hon. friends across the floor would like to see the position reversed · the White man coming into the Transkei in big numbers to take over our land. (Interjections ) The officers that you see in the Transkei own no properties . They live in Government properties but in so far as you want us to introduce White capital in the Transkei we must bring in men from America, Britain and all over
and Transkei . the provisions of the 1936 Land Act are going to be applied to give additional land to these areas . (Interjections) We do not know what bribes you have received from the Whites . You are not prepared to fight for the rights of your people. (Interjections ) Imagine your Own leader opposing the acquisition of properties in the towns by the African people . He says they should merely be confined to Ncambedlana because he was lucky to get property in Ncambedlana .
OPPOSITION
DEPUTY
because they must have their own property in terms of your policy . You cannot call the White man from overseas and tell them to come and live in the Transkei and then deprive them of the right of owning property . (Interjections ) The country knows that you were bought in 1963 and you do not want to change .
OPPOSITION MEMBER : For how much? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You know what happened in Corana when you had a big feast there . Where did you get that money from? You cannot change now unfortunately . Your fate is coming in 1968. In so far as criticism of my budget is concerned I see you have nothing to say. I am not going to pay attention to all the nonsenses which have been contributed in this debate . I will
not
say that . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people now know you and are able to analyse each and every one of you.
C.S. MDA : Where is Dr. Gwele?
not even reply to the soapbox politician from Eastern Pondoland who has since
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I will now come to the question of White capital in the Transkei . You know, the arguments which you raise before this House are really ridiculous . The hon . the Leader of the
joined the prodigal son on that side of the House . He is absent from this House , but I wish his firend will tell him that we just close our ears when he stands up because he emulates the man who sent him to this House .
MR.
Opposition says that by disallowing White capital to come into the Transkei we are depriving the would-be purchasers of property in Ncambe dlana of money which they would borrow from the building societies . In other words , he wants to see Whites occupying properties in Ncambedlana ….. (Interjections) THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
MR . MDA: Who sent him? THE CHIEF MINISTER : We know that their deposits were paid from Durban . In any event he is coming to this House for the last time so we are not going to waste our time with a man who is semi-conscious in his head . A lot of criticism has been made by the hon . Mr. Nota on various items of my speech . He has not even appreciated the reductions which have been made in
Order ,
please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : -..because once a White building society has got a bond on a property in Ncambedlana when the man who is purchasing the property fails to pay then the property belongs to that White man. (Interjections) The Bantu Investment Corporation is a Government concern to protect the interests of the Bantu indivi-
these votes . I want to explain to him that in so far as Vote E, item 12, is concerned , negotiations were made by my Government for the acquisition of the Broster collection in Engcobo district for R10,000 for our museum , but those negotiations broke down and that amount of R10,000 could not be expended . That is all I can explain because all the other votes are the same as the votes
duals in the Transkei . When the BIC takes over the property they will keep it in order that it will be taken over by another African . That is not so with White building societies . We stand for the establishment of Blackowned building
societies .
Why
last year . I am not going to reply to you because my friends on this side of the House have sufficiently replied, but I want you to appreciate that we have a staff of
can't you
111.
educated men in so far as finances are men who know bookkeeping far concerned better than my hon . friend from Qaukeni region. He is regarded as the future Minister of Finance on that side of the House , but he cannot base his knowledge of finances on the calculations which he makes in his
will be selected every year for full-time study in law at the University College of Fort Hare . It cannot be disputed that fulltime study has its advantages compared with correspondence courses , e.g. personal tuition, excellent library facilities, more study time and ideal study conditions . My Department selected five officers this year. The number selected each year will depend on various factors . For instance , care must be taken that the transfer of officers es-
shop. We are budgeting for the services of the country as a whole and in doing so the treasury is very economical. All expenses which are made are necessary expenses. It is just what you would do if you were in power, but unfortunately you will never be. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I now move that Vote 1 be passed as a whole.
pecially senior officers , to Fort Hare, does not disrupt the administration at district offices . It might therefore take time before a sufficient number of officers can be afforded the opportunity to attend the University College . However , we have at least made it possible for them to receive such training because we need thoroughly trained jurists to whom the future of the Transkeian judicature can be entrusted with confidence .
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Assembly resumed
The standard of judicature in South Africa is very high and my Department must endeavour to maintain this high standard in the Transkei . Seconded officers will
at 2.15 p.m.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon.paramount chiefs and hon . members , I am now
not always be available and in time to come personnel must be available not only for the magistrates' courts , but also for a Transkeian High Court.
going to put the amendment moved by the hon. Mr. Nota, " That Vote 1 , Chief Minister and Finance , be reduced by a sum of R3,800 in respect of the Chief Minister's salary ." Those in favour?
I wish to mention also , Mr. Chairman , that we do not only need thoroughly trained judicial officers for an efficient judicature , but that we also need well trained public prosecutors. Prosecution is a very important aspect of the judicature and should not be neglected . This aspect is also receiving the attention of my Department and endeavours will be made to create facilities for
The amendment was lost by 40 votes to 30.
The
second
amendment was put and
lost by 50 votes to 32 . The sum of R695,000 under Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and
the training of prosecutors . I might mention that if present negotiations are successful , it might be possible to arrange a course for prosecutors in Umtata towards the end
Finance , was passed to stand part of the schedule . POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE:
of the year . In that event not only clerks but also members of the Transkeian Police
Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members of the
will be afforded the opportunity to attend the course .
Legislative Assembly . There is another aspect , Mr. Chairman , which must not be overlooked . Legal training is not the only training which the officers of my Department need. They must also be trained in office work so that they will be able to perform their administrative duties. efficiently. Efficiency is the key to success and it will therefore serve no good purpose to promote Transkeian officers to the senior posts at present occupied by seconded
We are all very thankful for the peace and quiet which we at present enjoy in the Transkei and that this generation can make a contribution to the development of the Transkei under such ideal conditions . I am particularly thankful because my Department can in such circumstances make the best use of the services of its seconded personnel whose main task it is to train Transkeian citizens for the Department.
senior posts
in the
officers , until they are properly equipped for their task . The Transkeian Government Service was created only three years ago . It is a very short period but I am proud to say that great progress has been made
Mr. Chairman , in his policy speech year my predecessor stressed the importance of training , especially legal training. I share his views on the matter and I am therefore doing my utmost to ensure that training facilities for officers of my Department are extended . In this connection I wish to refer to the training scheme which was recently introduced in collaboration with the Public Service Commission . Under this scheme a certain number of officers last
during this period. At present 245 posts on the establishment of my Department are occupied by Transkeian citizens who are performing their duties satisfactorily. These officers will in future form the core of the Department .
Mr. Chairman, at the commencement of my speech I referred to the peace and quiet
112.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I second.
which we enjoy in the Transkei .
My Department and the people of the Transkei Owe the South African Police much gratitude for their untiring efforts to combat crime and to ensure the internal security of this territory. Notwithstanding isolated efforts by • subversive elements
MR. B.S. hon. members , policy speech Justice there
RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and I think after listening to the of the hon . the Minister of are a few things that we
can say. It is a pleasure to know that in Transkei we have peace and order and
to disrupt the peaceful administration of the Transkei , my Department was able to reduce the number of homeguards further. The close co-operation between my Department and the Department of Police has contributed to a sound administration of
proach , the other side of the House has been misled to think that we are just criticizing for the sake of making a noise . We
justice . However, Mr. Chairman , the efforts of my Department's district officers and the influence which they exercise in the performance of their duties among our people must not be overlooked . The district offices
appreciate and point out where we think improvement has to be done . It is interesting to understand that some people are being trained, or rather contemplated for training, and that some five have already been sent
perform agency services for many Transkeian and Republican departments and are therefore playing an important part in our district administration .
up for training. This is one department without which things may not be as we would expect them to be , but for these
quiet. We deserve that. Sometimes when we listen to these things with a critical ap-
flimsy excuses always given by the Ministers of the Transkei , that it only two years, it is only three years , it is only this or that. After three years the hon. Minister comes forward to say they have not done anything and he tells us that a certain number of people will be trained to replace the loaned officials . One wonders just what is happening between the Republic of South Africa and the Transkei Govern-
As regards the Transkeian Police , I wish to remind the Assembly of my predecessor's statement last year that the Transkeian Police should be responsible for police work in the Transkei . In this connection I wish to mention that the transfer of certain police stations in the Transkei is already receiving the attention of the Republican Government. As in the case of the appointment of Transkeian citizens as heads of district offices , I believe that there should be no undue haste in these matters . There are many administrative
ment in so far as the Department of Justice and the security of the country is concerned . In the Transkei this is a scapegoat department. When we bring matters that should have been attended to by the Department of Justice they have a way of saying that security belongs to the Republican Government . Who are they training? Training to do what? There are Sons all over the Transkei , (Laughter) and we are told there is peace . What is the work of this Department? Among other things the ridiculous thing about the whole set-up is that in a peaceful place like the Transkei there should still be that hydra proclamation - that many-headed
and other problems attached to the transfer of offices , duties and responsibilities . It should be effected without causing disruption and embarrassment and it will therefore serve no good purpose to force these matters .
Mr. Chairman, last year my predecessor also stressed the importance of road safety and the necessity of intensive road safety work in the Transkei. My Department negotiated with the South African Road Safety Council in this connection and offered a grant-in-aid of R6,000 for the purpose . The Council accepted the offer and I am glad to announce that a branch office of the
and hated proclamation , R.400 . Yet we are told there is peace in the Transkei but the devil is there all the time . Nowhere where there is peace and quietness anywhere in the country will you find a regulation or clause or R.400 existing . There is no need for it. If the Department of Justice is sincere in what it is telling the world , it should have lifted or removed R.400. Now when we say the people think it is against them it is because they are law-abiding. The Government says it must remain because the chiefs are being killed . Why look at the Transkei particularly? There are plenty of chiefs all over the country. Why should they think particularly the chiefs in the Transkei are being killed? And then sometimes it is said that we on this side
Regional Secretary, East London, will in the near future be established at Umtata . One or two posts will be created which will be occupied by Transkeian citizens . These officers will be carefully selected and will receive special training in road safety work before and after assumption of duty at Umtata . They will operate throughout the Transkei and will work in close co-operation with my Department. I trust that the people of the Transkei will give these officers the support they deserve and will assist them as far as possible in their great task to make road users road safety conscious in an effort to save lives .
are against the chiefs . What nonsense from any reasonable person ! We don't want any chief to be killed or molested in any way. There is the law which must be followed when anybody is being molested like that. Even in other places in the Republic ,
Mr. Chairman , I move that vote No. 2 be approved by this Committee .
113.
if there is trouble in certain places the law affects that place only, and we should not have a blanket over the whole country that has no mercy . We are aware of good work being done by members of this Department and somewhere in his policy speech the hon. Minister says there shall be no undue haste about this and that. He is so fond of that. He hastened so slowly
MR . JAFTA: You know it is just as I say it is . At the same time you said something about people being trained as prosecutors , for which we were greatful . You also said people would be trained as magistrate s and you added something about people going slowly because we are not yet free .
in the Education Department that he hastened himself out of it. (Laughter) Well , perhaps here we may feel we should give
CHIEF THE learn English .
him a chance . He is still finding his feet. In fact I suppose this Department would have done very well without him. (Laughter) This side of the House cannot but appreciate the good work done by this Department. While we are aware that some people are being killed here and there in
MR . JAFTA: Yet there were people who were officially doing this work and they were promised that they would be appointed. In 1964 it was said this would happen but up to now nothing has been done . That in itself is not pleasing . Last
MINISTER :
You
must
year you did raise the question that the families of the policemen should get free medical treatment....
the locations and are being knifed here and there , they are doing their best so that in the Transkei at least we can say we have a department that can run itself very well . Even if it had no Minister at the head it
THE CHIEF MINISTER : White policemen .
We have no
would still do very well.
MR. JAFTA: ...in the same way as the Republic are doing.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members ....
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why compare them with the White policemen?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, why should they have the monopoly?
MR. JAFTA: You yourself introduce things done by the Republican Government. You must remember that we are asking
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I gave him a chance because no one else put up their hands .
specially for these people to get this privilege . I would like you to understand one thing as Minister of Justice . It so happens that in the villages there is a man with a fire-arm and this man has been given this man has been given this fire-arm legally as a result of being trusted. When the owner of the fire-arm dies and his property be-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We always wait to see if one of the members of the other Opposition party is going to speak first. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I already said he could have the floor.
MR. JAFTA:
Mr.
have
comes the estate of his dependants , this fire-arm forms part of the estate , but if the son is not trusted the fire-arm is taken
Chairman and hon.
away from him. Here is my point: I do not say that the son should be given that firearm , but why should his father's money be taken away from him? His father left it as his property and this fire-arm is taken away from him and he is not compensated for it. That is what I am asking the Minister of Justice to pay special attention to. This happens very often in the villages , and it does not show any fairness because the property that has been taken away belonged to the deceased.
members , in reply to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice, he spoke very well about peace in the Transkei , but I would like to repeat this : Why keep this Proclamation R.400 when there is peace? (Interjections) THE please.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
Order,
MR . JAFTA: There are many bad things done by this Proclamation , and you know perfectly well that this Proclamation is not wanted by the people. (Interjections) The hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Justice have been asked by the people why they have retained it. At Chief Diko's place they were asked about it . I did not open my mouth at that meeting. (Interjections) You tried to evade the question when it was asked by the people when they wanted to know why you retain this Proclamation . (Interjections) THE please .
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
MR . E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and members , this talk reminds me of Booker T. Washington , who said people differ in their thinking. We have asked
hon.
the Opposition before if they can actually give reasons why they have turned against the policy of separate development after first accepting it. Each and every member did take an oath that this policy would be adhered to and the laws of the Transkei obeyed. (Interjections) OPPOSITION MEMBER : subject. You are out of order.
Order,
114 .
Come to the
MR. SIHELE : Now today you say you do not want to live spearately, yet that is actual policy of the Transkei Government. This one who comes from the lunatic asylum says I am out of order. He clamours for the lifting of Proclamation R400 but this proclamation protects people against communists . (Interjections) THE order.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
citizens favour the DP or People's Freedom Party nobody will be given a fire-arm of his father's .
THE MINISTER Are you surprised ?
Order,
who is loyal to the laws of South Africa should be a trustworthy man, so I come down to say that the hon. the Minister of Justice is just a figurehead, because he cannot influence the Republican Government in so far as the issuing of fire-arms is concerned . Now I will come again to a point that is very important. We are members of the T.L.A. They are responsible , respectable gentlemen , and many of them apply for fire -arms and not one of them has been issued with a fire -arm .
Here is someone saying I am off the point. He said that the reason why the Republican Government gave us this Transkei Government is because they do not want us in the Republic . He claimed that it was a sort of dummy government, but I have seen him
THE
things in the Transkei . Why did he not say them before? You have not yet answered my question as to why you kept members of Poqo in your house. All I am saying is that you must put right the Department of Justice. People who criticize the Department of Justice are free . Look at the wise Paramount Chief Poto speaking to people from America, people with brains . When he was asked what he would do with the Transkei should it be handed over to him he said he would continue on the lines
situation and how it stands , but you don't. As one of the men who signed the Transkei Constitution he knew what to do .
every month. I am trying to show that there is no Department of Justice that is doing justice to the people of the Transkei . You know the Department of Justice indirectly is encouraging faction fights . I wish the hon . Minister of Justice to take note of
MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to make just a few comments . In fact, I have been prompted by the point that the hon . Mr. Jafta did not develop well . He says a fire-arm from an estate is just confiscated from the heir because the heir is not trust-worthy . What about a case where the heir is trustworthy?
those things . You must make these things known to the Republican Government that people are feeling the pinch. Make it your duty to make these representations in an effective way so that the Republican Government can know that these people have a human heart and human feelings . You in Daliknow that in your campaigns
In all my experience as a headman , not one heir was ever is sued with his father's fire-arm. Now the point to consider is this : The Minister of Justice cannot quote within the five years how many heirs have been issued with their fathers ' fire-arms .
ndyebo, too many people were killed. You know it but that thing has just been covered and no investigations were made about it . Today there are people slaughtering each other in Tabankulu district and under
Very many.
the cover of investigation those people are being encouraged .
MR. DIKO: It is possible that in Qamata they have been given fire -arms of their fathers , but I know for certain that in all districts
where
the
majority
EDUCATION:
of Justice at Umtata . Up to this day that man has lost and has never recovered his horse. I am giving you just one instance . There are thousands of horses that the Africans buy and which are confiscated
of separate development . Don't say I am lying because I can produce the book now. All I can tell you is that he can see the
the
OF
MR . DIKO : Most of them · I will say all of them. That is very important. Why refuse to give fire-arms to the gentlemen , to the citizens of the Transkei who are respectable ? So my point is that at no time will you ever influence the South African Government to issue fire -arms to any citizen of the Transkei (Interjections ) except the hon. Ministers . Now I come to another point to show that I am surprised to hear some of the hon. members speaking about. A certain citizen of the Transkei rides his horse from Kokstad with the intention of going home to Tabankulu . It is his bona fide horse and he rides it from Kokstad and he bought it with his own money. That horse was confiscated at Mount Ayliff. That case was brought to the Department
given this honour in as he likes . He can outside the Transkei . he can say these
CHIEF MINISTER :
MINISTER
Please say some of them are respectable .
sucking from this dummy . (Interjections) He tries to criticize the Republican Government after he has been elected to this
THE
AGRICULTURE :
MR. DIKO : So can't you guess? I take it that a man who has no criminal record in his life is a man to be trusted. A man
MR. SIHELE : As proof of this there are some of your men in gaol for communistic ideas . Some of your men went to Grahamstown to give evidence. All we want to know from you is whether those members are still in your party or not and up to now there has been no reply. (Interjections)
House . He has been the Transkei , to talk never say these things (Interjections) Today
OF
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame !
of the
115.
is in its infancy and they have no funds . (Interjections) Those who feel that the Transkei Government is a mere dummy should never have agreed to be representa-
MR . DIKO : So while lip- service is given to justice in the Transkei it is just a way of getting African people to massacre and kill each other in the Transkei. No amount of eloquence , no amount of persuasion , no amount of any pretence will turn the people of the Transkei from one demand that in this country we want justice ; we want fair treatment of human beings irrespective of colour, whether they are pink, yellow, white or black they must all be treated on the lines of justice . (Interjections) So while the hon . Minister brings a statement to say there is quiet and peace
tives of the people here . It has been made clear that there are about 50 vacancies in the Department of Justice and that people are being trained for these posts . Those who want legal training can attend Fort Hare in order to learn how to mete out justice to their people . (Interjections) Every year the Opposition members talk about Proclamation R.400. We have continually told them that R.400 does not disturb the people. It is the people who disturb R.400 and if they do so that Proclamation will have its effect. It is aimed at the murderers and normally people are only worried
and everything in the Transkei one wonders whether he is coming from Honolulu or from Utopia, because everybody who is in the Transkei knows there is no peace in the Transkei . People are groaning under the thumb of the oppressor and there are few Africans who have agreed to be used....
because they want to do something illegal . (Interjections) The home-guards have been done away with because of the existence of this Proclamation . Only a few of the se home-guards are still available . I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Who is the oppressor?
MR . DIKO : Your master is the oppressor, and you know it. You yourself did not write this statement. It was just dished out to you and you do not know anything about it. (Laughter)
MR . C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to make a few remarks on the speech of the hon . Chief Ntola who said that Proclamation R.400 will not disturb anyone who does not disturb it . This is just like putting a huge stone in the road so that people walking in the road will knock their feet against it. That stone was brought from a place where it was doing no harm and placed on the road to do harm to the traveller. (Interjections ) It is well known that the Bantu people are reputed at least to be peaceful people . Apparently the peaceful Bantu people are those who do not reside in the Transkei . Mr. Chairman , let the Government take note of this fact. These two things are different one from the other. If I have a fire -arm and I insult you , then you cannot say anything because you are afraid I may shoot you . So
CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with this policy speech by the hon . Minister. First of all I would like to make it clear to the hon. member for Qaukeni , because he does not attend the regional authority meetings ... MR . DIKO : I am thinking about a horse which was confiscated at Mount Ayliff. What are you talking about? CHIEF NTOLA: Last year at the regional authority meeting he placed the matter before the authority at Flagstaff that compensation for the horses which had been taken from their owners ....(Interjections)
I can tell my friends that you are quite happy about what I say about you . I can say the same thing repeatedly and people will believe me because if I point my firearm at you you will not deny it . Our people are threatened with laws and regulations whereby they are put into prison without cause . It cannot be alleged that there is peace because of the existence of Proclamation R.400 . On the 6th September something occurred in Cape Town which shook the whole country the first happening of its kind in South Africa - but up to the present the Republican Government has not applied Proclamation R.400 . The Government side must admit that this Proclamation
Order. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : THE Please behave , hon . member for Qaukeni . CHIEF
NTOLA:
It
was
made
clear
that any money derived from horses brought illegally into the area was used for the benefit of the people . You know that we are going to have technical education in the Transkei . MR. DIKO : Come to the Department of Justice , please.
is there to protect them . I openly stated that the members on the Government side
CHIEF NTOLA: I refer to the remark made by the hon . Revd. Rajuili to the effect that the Minister continually promises that training will be provided for the people and he wonders when they will be appointed to the different offices . First of all we have to find money and normally our efforts proceed a little bit slowly. It should be remembered that the Transkei Government
are killing their own people . OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Shame! MR. MDA: To show how irresponsible they are they have removed from the order paper the motion relating to Proclamation R.400.
116.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On
paragraph because it is quite long, but I will read what is pertinent to the point in front of us at the moment . " The debate , when resumed , shall be confined to the financial and economic state of the Transkei and the general principles of Government policy and administration as indicated by the Bill and estimates . After the expiry of 15 hours of debate unless the debate is concluded earlier, the Chairman shall give the responsible Minister an opportunity for reply..." OF THE MINISTER EDUCATION : Unless it is concluded earlier.
a point of correction , your side is represented on the business committee .
to
MR. MDA: I say Proclamation R.400 ought be discussed early in this session
because it is causing trouble and discomfort to the people , just like Proclamation 180 in Cape Town. The Government constantly makes us feel that we should discuss this Proclamation . The Minister of Justice in the Republic again urged that Sobukwe should remain on Robben Government Island. (Interjections) The side says that anything that has been discussed in this House should not be rein-
MR. RAJUILI : I am aware that you would like to conclude it earlier but there is that 15 hours which we are allowed. It
troduced for discussion and that is why they say Proclamation R.400 should not be discussed. I ask them to think on behalf
is on that point that I rise , that it would be out of order at this stage when we have hardly taken four hours. on this policy
of their people . The hon . members must educate their people . Education is not only acquired at Fort Hare . Even the ordi-
speech. We are aware that the Government side generally does not have members to keep up to the time given here . We don't blame the Government side for that poverty of intelligence but we would like to be
nary red-blanketed people ought to be educated in these matters . He must be taught that a police officer is a peace officer brought to protect him. He must not be taught that a policeman is an enemy to him. (Interjections) We are happy that the hon. Minister says in his speech that people will be trained. at Fort Hare . Could he tell us what the entrance qualification for applicants for this training is ? We note that first grade clerks in the Department ofJustice are being transferred to the Department of Education although such officers have had no teacher training of
given time for this policy speech to be debated. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just want to bring this hon. gentleman who is out of order, to order. This is a stage of this debate in committee of supply and therefore rule 133 is applicable here and I would like the hon . member to tell me where the 15 hours is in rule 133. Therefore if I were in a court of law I would say: You are out of court, Sir.
any kind. They merely joined the public service in the Department of Justice and they have been promoted to first grade clerks . Could the hon. Minister make it
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I wish to make this point clear in spite of what has been said by the hon. member for Maluti . I am concerned about repetitions that go on hour after hour without any new ground being touched. The order
clear what the purpose is of transferring such officers to the Education Department? CHIEF M. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Justice in every respect. I should like to find out from the hon . members across the floor what is wrong with Proclamation R.400. There is nothing wrong with it if one keeps out of trouble . Since this Parliament started this has been a sore point. Why? Proclamation R.400 will remain unchanged until we on the Government side decide
paper has remained for three days now without any indication of any amendments whatsoever and I notice now that hon. members are desirous of introducing amendments so that they may cover this time. I am not going to allow any amendments which should have been introduced earlier on today, nor am I going to allow repetition without any new matter being introduced . That is why I ask the hon . the Minister of Justice to reply .
to change it. I do not see why the hon. members should be worried because it does not affect them. The hon. the Minister of Justice has framed his policy well. Even in the matter of fire-arms there is nothing wrong if one has taken the necessary steps in connection with possession . I do not know about other areas , but I for one do not see anything wrong. Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish first of all to compliment the House for its sane approach in its discussions on this question. There are , however, a few observations I wish to make . It would appear to me that some of the members are of the opinion that the only training given to our people in this Department are those going to Fort Hare . In the last three years approximately 50 people have been assisted by this Department to the tune of about 50 per cent
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon . Minister to reply . MR. B.S. RAJUILI: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I want to rise under clause 130 of the rules of this Assembly in so far as matters pertaining to policy speeches are concerned. I will not read the whole
financially , and a great number of them have many law subjects to their credit. Secondly , I wish to assure this House that the Govern-
117.
Education:-
ment is not prepared at all to dispense with proclamation R.400 . It is the most important factor in ensuring peace and order in this country.
" 1. (a) Give the number of High Schools in each region and their names .
OPPOSITION MEMBER: You are misusing it.
(b) Teacher Training schools with Higher Primary Courses in each region: region : The ir names .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The question has been thrashed out many a time and I am not prepared to pursue it any further. The licensing of arms and ammunition is governed by the Arms and Ammunition Act of 1937 and each case is treated on its merits. Ali applications must be made to the Secretary for Justice, Pretoria. I shall not waste much time on the remarks by the hon. Mr. Cromwell Diko. They were sweeping and unfounded and I will treat them with the contempt they deserve . The question of transferring clerks from one department to another rests purely with the Public Service Commission. It so happened that when the Transkei Government took over, my Department was fully equipped in that regard whilst other departments were short- staffed , but I think that will not happen again now. A clerk does not need to know all the intricacies of a department. If we transfer a clerk from the Department of Justice to the Department of Education he need not know all about education . He will acquire knowledge as he goes on. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman .
(c) Of these how many were 1960 in since established t respec of (a) and (b) above? 2.
(a) How many teachers are in the Primary Schools in the Maluti Region?
(b) Of these how many hold Teacher's Higher Primary Certificate ? 3. (a) How many teachers serve in the Secondary and Teacher Training Schools in the Maluti Region? (b) Of these how many hold a a University plus degree professional certificate ? (c) with degree without professional certificate? 4. (a) In each of the nine regions what are the names of those persons who by their know-
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now put that the amount of R524,000 question the for the Department of Justice stand part of the schedule .
ledge and experience on educational matters have been appointed on the regional authorities?
(b) What are their educational and professional qualifications , if any , in each case ?
Agreed to . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon . members of the House, I am just giving this as a waming . Members who are desirous of putting amendments in the next vote should do so today because if there are no amendments tomorrow I shall not consider what they have been asking me to consider this afternoon .
5. (a) In 1965-66 , how many teachers were transferred from their schools?
(b) How many of those teachers have since been re-transferred to former schools?
House Resumed. (c) Give
names of schools from and to which they had been transferred.
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 9th May, 1967.
(d) Have any of those teachers affected by the transfers and re-transfers been compen-
TUESDAY , 9TH MAY, 1967.
The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
sated for their expenses incurred in those transfers?
a.m.
(i) If not, why not? Prayers were read . REPLY : 1. (a) Dalindyebo:-
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
Clarkebury,
Cicira,
St. Johns College . Emboland:-
QUESTIONS.
Jongilizwe
College ,
Shawbury, Osborn. QUESTION NO. 23: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of
Emigrant Tembuland:- Rhoda.
118.
installations took place during the financial year 1967 /67and who " gifts : ch received therefore
Fingo: Blythswood, Bethel College , Nyanda:- Ndama se Qaukeni :Sigcau).
Mfundis weni
(previously
Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa: Xesibe Tribe, Mount Ayliff. (ii) Sub-chief Xaba Sabata : Hala Tribe, Cofimvaba, Matanzima: G.M.M. (iii) Sub-chief Hala Tribe, Cofimvaba . Mapassa: Maboboti (iv) Sub-chief (i)
(b) Dalindyebo :Cicira, Emboland :- Shawbury .
Clarkebury ,
Emigrant Tembuland:ngiwe.
Arthur Tse-
Gcaleka (Ntsonyana) Tribe , Kentani.
Fingo: Blyths wood.
(v) Sub-chief Calara Namagqwatekana Imizizi Tribe , Bizana. (vi) Sub-chief Gwadana Dondashe : Xhosa (Rarabe) Tribe , Kentani .
Maluti:- Mvenyane. Qaukeni : Sigcau ndis weni) .
(previously
Mfu-
Rations unlike presents are not granted to individual chiefs or headmen but on a district basis on application by the Magisconcerned for allocation to tribal trate authorities.
(c) (a) 5. (b) Nil.
2. (a) 555. (b) 271.
The amounts spent on presents and rations are R126.75 and R176, respectively.
3. (a) 35. (b) 9. (c) 0.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , this question arises out of the reply from the hon. the Chief Minister. He has mentioned chiefs and sub-chiefs in his reply. Now I would like to know what the difference is between a chief and a sub-chief under jurisdiction per se.
4. (a) Dalindyebo : W. Memani , Emboland: A.B. Mkutyukelwa , Emigrant Tembuland : R.S. Sigwela , Fingoland ; C.W. Monakali , Gcaleka: P. Majavu, Maluti: S.D. Lebese , Nyanda: L. Maninjwa, Qaukeni : A.K. Mlomo, Umzimkulu : L.J. Baqwa.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , chiefs are heads of tribes and sub-chiefs are members of the royal family who are given jurisdiction over certain locations in the same tribe.
(b) Particulars are not available .
5. (a) - (c) No specific separate record of these matters is kept by the Department as it would serve no practical purpose , consequently I am not in a position to furnish the information .
MR. GUZANA: Are they in the same position as a headman?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , they are in the same position as chiefs in so far as jurisdiction is concerned, but they have jurisdiction over the locations falling
(d) If a teacher is transferred by the Department, expenses incurred are borne departmentally.
under them, whereas the chief of that tribe has concurrent jurisdiction with them. I will give you an example . Suppose the Bomvana chief in Elliotdale has certain
QUESTION NO. 28. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Chief Minister:-
chiefs belonging to the royal family of the Bomvana. He is designated by the regional authority and confirmed by the State President with jurisdiction over specific locations . Now those sub-chiefs who are under the Bomvana chief would have concurrent
"What chiefs and headmen were given ; (a) Presents , (b) Rations , during the financial year 1966/67? How much was spent in each case?
Why were these chiefs and headmen given presents ? What is a chief or headman expected to do in order that he be qualified to be awarded a present by the Transkei Government?"
jurisdiction with the chief. In other words, where the people prefer taking cases to the chief they would do so , just as a Native commissioner has concurrent A jurisdiction with the chief's court. In St. Mark's district, for instance, Chief George has jurisdiction over seven locations falling under the chief of the Hala, who has jurisdiction over 32 locations.
REPLY: (a) Whenever a chief is installed, he is presented with a present, usually a saddle and a bridle at a cost of R24. No headmen were given presents .
MR. GUZANA: You would not have a headman then , where you have a sub- chief? THE
The following are the chiefs whose
119 .
CHIEF
MINISTER :
There
are
financial year.
headmen . The sub-chief has headmen under him.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, arising out of this reply , would it be correct then to take it that a member of the Transkei police who has paid back this loan owns the uniform he has purchased? I ask the question because uniforms which are owned by individuals may be misused for impersonation and things like that. What provision is made to protect the public from a misuse of uniforms owned as property by the policeman which may become available to irre-
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Pertaining to that same question , Mr. Chairman, what is the criterion that qualifies a member of the royal blood other than that he is a member of the royal house ? I suppose a man of no royal blood cannot be a sub- chief? THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is usually a matter for the regional authority . MR. GUZANA: I think the questioner sought information as to how the regional authority comes to a decision on the matter. Is it just because he happens perhaps to be a younger brother of the chief, or a cousin or just belongs to the royal family? Would he have been the chief if there had not been another chief? I think that is the point sought to be cleared up.
THE
CHAIRMAN :
sponsible people? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , although the examples which I have given in my question do not fall within the ambit of my Department, I think I will be correct when I say that where an advance has been made to an officer, whether it is a constable or stock inspector, and that money is paid back to the department he naturally owns the horse or the uniform purchased. I think as an attorney you know that personification is a crime and that if a man goes around in that uniform when he has ceased to be
Do you want your
question to be interpreted by your leader , hon. member, or do you wish to ask it yourself?
a policeman and pretends to be a policeman then he is in trouble .
MR. RAJUILI : I think both serve the same purpose, Mr. Chairman.
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I concede it belongs to him and I think the Government is aware of the fact that the uniform may
MR. CHAIRMAN : I think it is much better to ask it yourself.
be used improperly by people who acquire it from the policeman who is still in the service. Is there no provision to the effect that when the uniform ceases to be used by a man as uniform in the force , that uniform is surrendered with a nominal
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, not unless I do not understand the Chair well. If he has asked the question well I accept that he asks it for me.
THE CHAIRMAN : Would the hon. the Chief Minister answer it?
compensation? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I think there are regulations governing the use of such uniform and I can only reply to the question when I have had recourse to those regulations .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , it depends on the motivation of each region al authority. Usually it is the status of the chief amongst the chief's wives . For example Chief Xaba Sabata is the son of the wife of the right-hand house of Matanzima . That is the position. Now it depends on the seniority of the man in the royal family .
QUESTION NO. 29. Chief D.D.P.
Ndamase
asked
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I want to know what happens to the brass plates with numbers written on them which they have on their uniforms besides the stripes that deisgnate rank or whatever it is , but I will wait until you have looked it up because we do not like to embarrass the Minister. However, I suppose they can go and plough as soon as they have taken off those plates and buttons.
the
Minister of Finance :"What was the capital for advances for which R500 was provided in the 1966/67 Estimates of Expenditure?"
REPLY: The amount has been transferred to a separate account styled the " Recoverable Advances Account" from which interest free advances are made to certain Govern-
QUESTION NO. 30. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Chief Minister:"Whether or not the planning and development of zoned urban areas includes the establishment of primary and secondary schools in these areas ?"
ment employees for the purpose of personal equipment, etc. required in connection with the execution of their official duties , e.g. horses for Stock Inspectors Gr. III and uniforms for members of the Transkei Police .
REPLY : No. The member probably refers to item G of my Departmental Vote . The item in question can be used for Township Planning Purposes e.g. like the planning of the new Township in Matatiele or the development
Recoveries are credited to the aforementioned account , the balance of which is not surrendered at the close of the
120.
ByFra -dura. of an existing Township like Ibisi in Umzimkulu District or to give assistance to Municipalities in connection with matters such as road making or water supplies in zoned urban areas . The provision of
QUESTION NO. 33. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Finance :distha beatd
school buildings will normally, however, be provided for under the Vote of the Department of Roads and Works .
"(a) Whether according to the records of the Republican Parliament any member was ever named and
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , where is the Minister? I want to ask a question arising out of this important question . Reference was made to a town which is not there in Matatiele . I was there last week . Shall we wait until he comes back , Sir?
suspended for a period exceeding one day with forfeiture of this emoluments? (b) If so , what is the name of such member? (c) And how long was he suspended?" REPLY:
THE CHAIRMAN : As he has been called to the telephone , would you please write your question down. QUESTION NO. 31 . Ndamase Chief D.D.P. Minister of roads and Works :-
asked
The honourable member is referred to rule 86 (x ) of the Rules of Procedure published under Proclamation No. 309 of 1963. The Hansard of the Republican Government is available in the Legislative Assembly library.
the
"Why is the Ntlaza Primary School not included in Vote 6 J. (i) of the 1967/68 e stimates? "
QUESTION NO. 34. Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of the Interior:Trading European many "(a) How Stations bought by the were Investment Bantu Corporation
REPLY : As it is a minor work, provision for funds for the construction of this school by the tribal authority has been made under subhead K. Primary Schools reflected under Major Works Sub-head J are those started by the department before the introduction of the tribal authority building scheme and are due for completion during this year .
QUESTION NO. 32. Chief D.D.P. Minister of Justice :-
Ndamase
asked
umumbasi
(e) (i) One . (ii) One.
during the years 1965-66 , 196667; (b) of the stations , how many are still managed by the Bantu Investment Corporation and how many have been handed over to African traders?"
REPLY : (a) 1965 : 10 stations 1966 52 stations 1967 23 stations .
the
"In the Department of Justice establishment, how many Transkeian citizens are :
(b) of these 63 are still controlled by the Bantu Investment Corporation whilst 22 have been sold to Bantu,
(a) Magistrates in charge of districts ? (b) Assistant Magistrates occupied both with administrative and judicial work? (c) If there are no Magistrates , why is it that there are none? (d) If there are none in the establishment, who have been elevated as Assistant Magistrate mainly occupied with only judicial work, are they not competent yet to do the administrative work?
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply I should like to ask whether, of the stations which have been sold to Bantu , the Africans concerned have received title deed to the stations and in view of the fact that the BIC has advanced them loans to buy whether the BIC has a mortgage bond over these trading stations.
(e) How many Transkeian Citizens in the establishment have passed:-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, in the absence of the hon . the Minister of the Interior I will gladly ask the hon. member to put his question in writing.
(i) Civil Service Lower Law? (ii) Civil Service Higher Law?
REPLY : (a) None . (b) Six of the provisions of (c) Because section 48(2) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) . The Department is negotiating with a view to such appointments . (d) This question is not clear and I am unable to reply thereto .
QUESTION NO. 35. Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Education :"(a) How many teachers did actually receive the adjustment figures at the end of April , 1967 , and (b) How many teachers did not enjoy the adjustments the same April , and if any, why not?"
121.
REPLY: (a) It is not understood what is meant by " teachers receiving adjustment figures" , but if by this is meant the adjustment of teachers ' salaries the Inter-departmental accountant is responsible for the actual adjustments on the strength of advices furnished by this Department .
or what the outcome of such appliapplication was. (b) (c) (d) and (e) fall away except that in so far as the policy of this Government regarding the establishment of industries in the Transkei is concerned , the honourable member is referred to what the honourable the Chief Minister had to say in his policy speech on 2nd May , 1967.
(b) Up to the 17th April , 1967 , (closing date) approximately 5,000 advices were handed over to the Interdepartmental accountant and approximately 600 are still out-
MR. GUZANA: Arising out of this question , Mr. Chairman , what reason has the department to give for refusing to make information available relating to persons
standing.
DUMALISILE : Chairman , Mr. MR. arising out of the reply by the hon. the Minister of Education he says there are 600 advices still outstanding . With regard to those 600 I would like to know whether, when they finally pay out this money, they
who have applied to it to establish industries here ? The information is purely factual. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On behalf of the Minister of the Interior , Mr. Chairman, I will ask the hon. member to put his question in writing.
will pay interest on it? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I hope the hon. member across the floor is serious , Mr. Chairman. They will only receive what would have been due to them
QUESTION NO.37. Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
as from the 1st April , 1967.
"Under which authority are the following roads :(a) Nqamakwe - Idutywa through Hlobo administrative area. (b) Ngamakwe Idutywa through Kotani administrative area?
QUESTION NO. 36. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an amendment to my question before I put it.
THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid you cannot do that. The questions must be answered as they appear. You can withdraw it and then start afresh.
If these fall within the jurisdiction of the Department of Roads and Works whether the Minister is aware that these two roads
MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, I will put the question.
are not water proofed and that as a result the bus service on them is affected, thereby inconveniencingthe public?" REPLY : (a) and (b) Both these roads are Government roads . The Minister is aware of the condition of these roads . For this reason a regravel-
QUESTION NO. 36. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of the Interior:"How many foreign industrialists have ever applied to open up industries in the Transkei , if there are any,
ling unit is working on road mentioned in ( a) and on completion will move to road mentioned in (b). It should be mentioned that in April
(a) What industries were they offering? (b) How many were granted permission? and
alone 7 new pipe culverts were installed on road (a) .
(c) How many were refused? (d) If all were refused what were the grounds of refusal? (e) If there are none that ever applied what is the Transkeian Government
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply given by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works , I would like to ask this question: Whether or not the Minister of Roads and Works is aware of the fact that in these road repairs , particularly where the road surface is graded , the material used to close up potholes is not worked into the solid basis of the road, with the result that in two or three days these potholes open up? Whether or not his Department has decided not to use rollers on roads that have been recently gravelled?
doing to attract such enterprises into the Transkei? " REPLY: (a) This make entry keian
Assembly has no power to laws in connection with the of persons other than Transcitizens into the Transkei .
Applications in this respect are dealt with by the Republican Government and my Department does not dispose of information in regard to the number of foreign submitted who industrialists in this connection applications
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Replying to the question of the hon . member, I would
122.
like to inform him that rollers are used on most roads that have been re -gravelled . I would not say that in cases where the soil is compacted on the road, but in re-gravelled roads rollers are used.
POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION . Mr. Chairman , honourable paramount chiefs, honourable Ministers and members of the Assembly . In speaking to-day to the 1967/68 appropriation Bill now before the
MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman , still arising out of the reply by the hon. Minister, on the branch route from the main road leading from Nqamakwe to Tsomo the kind of gravel used is very soft, and after rainy weather it becomes muddy . THE
CHAIRMAN :
Hon.
house, I would like first to deal with some of the amounts provided for under the approved sub-heads of Vote 3 , the Education Vote.
member, you
Under Sub-head A, a sum of R4,991,500
are making an explanation now. Where is the question ?
is provided for salaries , wages and allowances . This amount reflects an increase of
MR. MAZWI : From Nqamakwe to Idutywa how many miles have been gravelled?
R805,300 over last year's estimates owing mainly to the new salary scales for teachers which became effective on the 1st April this year, and to the proposed expansion of 500 posts in the teaching establishment of the Department .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I shall ask the hon . member to put his question in writing.
A circular which explains the new sa-
MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , arising out of the reply, may I know how many rollers you have in Qaukeni region , and if you have any on what road has a roller been used in so far as Tabankulu district is concerned?
lary scales in detail , has already been distributed to all schools in the Transkei and it is not my intention, therefore, to discuss the matter at length , but there are a few aspects which are worthy of mention . Mr. Chairman , these new salary scales , which represent a considerable improvement on
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman, this question asked by the hon. member does not seem to be related to the
the old scales , have been devised so as to provide a higher commencing salary , an annual increment at a higher rate as well as a higher maximum salary and the immediate gain to teachers ranges fom R72 to R240 per annum . An interesting innovation , which
question before the House .
MR. DIKO : We are talking about the gravelling of roads .
THE CHAIRMAN : Are you prepared to answer it or not , hon . Minister?
should encourage prospective as well as serving teachers to aim at higher qualifications , is the provision of enhanced scales for those teachers who obtain the Honours ,
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I would ask him to put it in writing.
Masters and Doctors degrees. MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , we would like to get intelligent answers to our questions . The question was whether, in repairing potholes , the material used is the same as that on the surface of the road being repaired. That question was not
The introduction of these new salary scales brings the Transkei in line with what has been done in the rest of the Republic and I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation to the Government of the Republic of South Africa for making it possible for our Government to bring about these salary improvements .
replied to . Do you have to get the same material and roll it in, or do you just get anything? THE CHAIRMAN : You heard the hon . Minister clearly . He said the question should be put in writing.
During the financial year that has just come to a close, a total of 942 new posts have been created in the Transkei - namely 8 Principalships , 54 Vice - principalships and 880 assistantships. The reason for this un-
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
usually large number of new posts is to be found in the fact that my Department decided
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I move that the House now converts itself into committee of supply .
to appoint all newly-qualified teachers from the beginning of the school year and not from the 1st April as was done in the past. This meant that over and above the normal in-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
crease of 500 in the teaching establishment provided for in last year's estimates and
Agreed to .
which absorbed the newly-qualified teachers of 1965, the teachers who qualified at the end of 1966 could also , with the permission
House in Committee
123.
of the Treasury , be appointed in the 66/67
planning section consisting of two senior planners and two planners . Incidentally, it is worth noting that the post of senior planner is equal to that of Chief Inspector and hence the encumbent of this post in the Transkei is the highest placed Bantu person
financial year . This step will no doubt be welcomed by all concerned.
In dealing with staff, I would draw attention to the fact that the number of
in any Fducation Department in South Africa.
seconded Republican teachers in my Department has decreased by 17 during the past
Furthermore , as I have already mentioned, eight out of the eleven posts of Circuit
year and that the remaining 53 teachers
Inspector are now occupied by members of our own people representing an increase of
represent less than 1 percent of the total number of teachers in the Department . I would also mention that the inspection
5 over last year. Our progress has been quite spectacular since last year and proves that
services of my Department have been considerably strengthened by the creation of an additional 3 cir cuits involving the provision
the policy of separate development is creating opportunities for our people that we did
of 3 posts of circuit inspector, 3 posts of
not enjoy before.
inspector, 6 posts of supervisor and 3 posts
It also gives me great pleasure to inform the house that the Inspectorate has now been freed from administrative duties. The Circuit Inspector and his staff can , as
of typist and of the 66 posts comprising the inspection services, only 3 are occupied by seconded Republican officers. I do not propose to deal specifically with Sub-heads B, C, E, G, H , K and L, as I
from this year, concentrate on their professional work and leave administrative matters
regard these as expenditure which speaks for itself. The increases reflected under
to head office. The
Administrative
section
of
the
these sub-heads are regarded as normal in an expanding Department .
Department has been completely reorganised
Under Sub-head D however, an increase of R18,300 is reflected . This is symptomatic
and strengthened by the creation of 34 additional administrative and clerical posts. The head office establishment now consists of 68 such posts as well as 26 district clerks of education . With the acquisition of
of the Department's development as an independent department of Education , as the printing of new forms has to be undertaken on an ever-increasing scale . Provision also had to be made for re-printing the primary
the old sweet factory in Sprigg Street for the stores section , the Department is to -day in a much better position to deal effectively with educational matters than it was last year.
school syllabuses as I shall indicate later. Services)
The fact however that the head office of
covers the supply of furniture and equipment , books ( such as class- readers) , library books and teaching aids in general to all schools . This year provision has been made for an amount of some R20,000 under this sub-head
the Department is housed in three separate buildings situated considerable distances apart creates difficulties which are not normal in the running of a department.
to enable the Department to supply an arithmetic text book, an English and an Afrikaans language manual to each pupil in Standard
The Technical College has been started .
Sub-head
F
(Supplies
and
Admittedly , the buildings have not as yet been erected, but the plans are in the pro-
VI. The Department feels concerned about the low standard of achievement of many
cess of being drawn up . The commercial parttime classes have been commenced with and are proving a great sucess . The number of
pupils who pass Standard VI . This can no doubt partly be ascribed to the fact that many pupils have no text books in Standard
students who are taking commercial subjects has surpassed our expectations , and we are grateful to be able to announce that the Umtata Technical College is now a reality .
VI . This development is therefore the first attempt to combat a situation which is not in the best interest of our post -primary education .
As I have just referred to the commercial classes it is perhaps the right place again
I now wish to deal with other matters which affect the education of our children in the Transkei .
to dwell on this aspect of education. My
During the course of 1966 , the re-organisation of the Department to which my predecessor referred last year has been completed . My Department now has , for the first time since its inception , a properly
few thoughts on it. Our people must now come to realise that times have changed and are changing every day. A country does not
organised and properly staffed professional
professions is not
predecessor in office did so last year, and, as I consider this matter of great importance to the Transkei, I also wish to express a
only need doctors , lawyers, teachers and administrators . The importance of these
124.
denied and hence the
teaching at school of those subjects that
ar in e is the sharp decrease in numbers in each
are essential to enable students to qualify in these professions is extremely important .
successive standard of the primary school , end of the and more especially y so at the endothe
But to-day , we need more than anything else technicians , artisans and people trained in commerce and agriculture. We shall never be able to make the Transkei economically
Sub-standard A year . More than of the pupils in Sub- standard A leave school at the
viable if our people do not come forward to be trained in these skills and trades. Apparently there still is a measure of prejudice
end of the first year . This is a very serious matter. A child who has only been at school for one year has learnt nothing that will be of lasting value to him. This one year of education has therefore been a waste of
against the commercial , technical and vocational courses offered at some of our institu-
money to both the State and the parent , and to the teacher it has been a waste of energy.
tions and I wish to-day to appeal to our
I wish to appeal to parents to see to it that their children go to school long enough to enable them to obtain at least a high degree of literacy .
people to set aside these prejudices . As a people we can no longer afford to live only in the past .
The Department last year appealed to the Regional and Tribal authorities to use their influence in various matters affecting the education of our children. I wish to- day
A study of the departmental statistics also reveals that too many boys leave school too soon . In Standard VI only of the number of pupils are boys. As from Standard II girls begin to outnumber the boys and this trend becomes very marked in Standards IV, V and VI . The reasons for this unfortunate trend
again to refer to these matters. The problem of absenteeism is causing concern . Too many pupils are absent too often, and too many pupils arrive late almost every day . This sort of thing can only have a detrimental effect on the education of our children
have not as yet been established and again I appeal to parents to take a lively interest in the education of their children and to combat this unsatisfactory state of affairs.
for it is not only the child who is absent who is affected thereby , but, as the task of the teacher is made more difficult, the education of the children who are present is also ad-
obny There has been of late an ever-increasing demand for post-primary education. New secondary schools are being applied for from all over. This is a development I
versely affected. However , I am also referring to this matter for a reason which is not as yet generally known in the Transkei . The Matriculation Board of the Republic of South
wish to welcome, but at the same time it is necessary that our people should understand
has during the past four or five drawn up new basic syllabuses for Certificate in all subjects . All Departhave had to adapt their sy llabuses
that secondary education is on the point of becoming more specialised and more ad-
even in the primary school to the new basic matric syllabuses. This process of adapta-
fied teachers and well -equipped laboratories are necessary and though this is a problem that will be solved in due course, it is not
Africa years Senior ments
vanced. To provide this type of education successfully, adequately and suitably quali-
tion, even in the primary school, is still going on also in the Transkei . Hence the
going to be solved next year or the year after. In an attempt to improve the standard of achievement in our secondary schools,
necessity that will occur later this year to re-print our primary school syllabuses . The new syllabuses will be more extensive in
the Department has this year introduced an in- service teachers ' training course for
their demands, especially in subjects such as sciences, mathematics and arithmetic . If
secondary teachers at Cicira and a Fom I
our children are to make the grade, regular attendance at school will be absolutely es-
teachers' training course at Shawbury . The in-service teachers' course is of six to seven
sential from the first to the last year of a child's school career. The Senior Certificate examinations of 1970 will be based on the
teachers in various subjects and to bring
weeks' duration and is designed to re-train
them up-to -date in the new approaches and contents of the new syllabuses.
revised syllabuses . Hence it was necessary to introduce the new syllabuses this year in Forms I and II . The Department is therefore
The Form I teachers' course has been introduced with the specific purpose of reducing the size of the classes in Form I. My Department is of the opinion that the classes in Form I are far too big for successful
faced with the huge task of re-training teachers of especially the sciences , mathematics and arithmetic . This task is being tackled with determination . Parents should therefore see to it that their children attend
teaching and in order to improve matters this course was introduced to train teachers for Form I work only . The Department rea-
school regularly and are at school on time . every day . Illness is the only valid reason for a child's absence from school.
lises that this may not be the ideal solution , but the vicious circle must simply be broken
Another matter which is causing concem
if we are to solve our problems . Classes of
125.
The debate on Vote 3 (Education ) was resumed .
a maximum of 35 pupils will go a long way towards raising the standard of achievement .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I think it was a good thing for some of us to leave the chamber before the reckless Minis-
In spite of an extreme shortage of suitably qualified staff the Department was able to start two new High schools , namely at Osborn and Rhoda. A third high school at Matatiele would have been started as well , had it not been for circumstances entirely
ter of Education came to the peroration of his address , in order to enjoy our lunch . I was so fed up that I was becoming bilious and hence I left him to himself here . I will
beyond the control of the Department of Education . This high school will now be opened at Mt. Hargreaves in 1968 as a temporary
begin by referring to page 5 of his address , where he says: "Our progress has been quite spectacular since last year and proves that the policy of separete development is
measure. When the school buildings to be erected in the new township of Ramahlokoane have been completed, the high school classes will be moved from Mt. Hargreaves
creating opportunities for our people that we did not enjoy before." I suppose by that he implies it is practical? Is that so?
to the new school.
The accomodation for Forms IV and V at Osborn became available because the Lower
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Go on.
primary teachers' course was terminated at
MR. RAJUILI: He says I must go on. I will leave that for a little while and come
the end of 1966. I am pleased to state that out teachers' training schools as from this
back to say that perhaps a few sweets can be thrown at his feet for a few good things which we think we see here of some incre-
year enrol student teachers who have passed in the Junior Certificate examination.
ment that comes up to some R805,000 , which is an increase in the teachers' salaries and
At Rhoda, the Qamata tribal authority erected two classrooms. This gesture is sincerely appreciated and made the esta-
so on. I think he has made some attempt but we said this thing should have been done two years ago - not now. We can see some
blishment of the Form IV class this year and
young blood in this Department, however , doing all it can with sleeves rolled up and cleaning the old stable, hence some fair work is reflected on page 1. Now coming to
the Form V class next year possible . The Department is also anxious to introduce Domestic Science for girls on a wider scale than at present; hence the establish-
the policy speech as a whole, this Government, with every one of its Ministers giving a policy speech, you don't get oneness of policy . One gives you one thing and another gives you something different . They all
ment at two of our training schools of a oneyear specialist domestic science course as an additional year to the H.P. Teachers' course is being investigated and planned .
differ on the main policy of the Government . You would be shocked if I made reference to
I wish to conclude by stating that the Education Department in the Transkei has now found its feet . Difficulties in organisation and planning have now been overcome , and the future can be faced with confidence.
the year before last and last year's policy and this one. You would be shocked.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : difference.
Tell us the
Before I sit down , I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor in office, who is now my colleague as Minister of Justice. The Department in the Transkei was launched by a man
MR. RAJUILI: And yet with all those differences of policy in one department do you get this one corruption going on all the time.
of integrity and high moral principles and ideals. In the Department of Education , Mr. Mdledle will always be remembered for his sincerity and devotion to duty, and I thank him for his great contribution to education in the Transkei.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is the difference? You cannot make statements like that.
MR. RAJUILI : I am coming to it. I want to refer you to the Public Service Commission's Report for 1966 and remind you at the same time of last year's report.
I now move the adoption of Vote 3. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why are you disThe debate was adjourned.
cussing the report?
Public Service Commission's
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Assembly resumed at 2.15
MR. RAJUILI : I am coming to it. On page 7 , under the Education Department you
p.m.
126.
see here an inconsistent way of appointing the teachers or the officers of this Department . THE
CHIEF
MINISTER:
The
cently the Minister of Transport , Mr. Ben Schoeman, after the hon . the Chief Minister at one time said they would take over the transport department , said he would never hand over the railways to this Black Govemment. (Interjections) bodt be modne
Public
Service Commission does not appoint teachers.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why are you discussing railways now?
MR. RAJUILI: You see here corruption in this Department that still continues. THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
The
MR. RAJUILI: I am discussing the policy of this Department. They are trying to say it is practicable. Now in January this year the Secretary of the Department of
Public
Service Commission does not appoint teachers. What are you talking about?
Bantu Education had this to say (and this is the education policy which they are trying to advocate here) . At the end of page 3 you have this ...
MR. RAJUILI: I am talking about the inconsistent policy with one corruption . (Interjections) I am referring you to page 7.
THE THE
CHIEF MINISTER:
But you
are
CHIEF MINISTER:
What did he
say?
making a wild statement. MR. RAJUILI: I am coming to that . At the bottom of page 3 it says : " Provision also had to be made for re-printing the primary school syllabuses as I shall indicate
MR. RAJUILI : You have here the Education Department continuing to interfere with the Public Service Commission. I will come back to that, but when you look at that you will excuse the new Minister because the old
later." What syllabus is this? What system of education is obtaining in the Transkei , if it is that which we have proved and showed
stable after you have sacked the old Minister . (Interjections)
them last year is word for word a reproduction of the Bantu system of education?
whole
thing belongs to the
pungent
(Interjections) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You have gone mad.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Don't you want the present one reviewed?
MR. RAJUILI : I will ask the Minister of Agriculture to withdraw those words . MR. RAJUILI: Now if they reprint this syllabus which they intend doing - the syllabus of which they are guilty of breach of faith with the people of the Transkei and this Legislative Assembly · this is a re-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You can't ask him to withdraw. You have been talking about corruption.
printing of Bantu education . We proved that THE
CHAIRMAN :
What
did he say? to them beyond doubt last year and the then Minister of Education , suffering from that
MR . RAJUILI : He said I am mad . (Interjections)
breach of faith, kept on roving about not knowing what to do with himself. Now they want to reprint it and I want to make reference now to a highly placed official in
THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on .
Bantu Education in Pretoria the Secretary of the Department of Bantu Education - and
MR. RAJUILI : I want to come back to that sentence which is supposed to imply the practicability of the policy of separate development. We have been telling this Government of the Transkei that they are trying to
tell you what he says . This is what he says about the system of education which is being advocated here and people being bluffed by saying the syllabus will be reprinted. He says: "Like all other Depar tments of Education , White and non-white , we will have to meet the minimum basic require
advocate a policy about which they know nothing. They are babies and they should start their own policy and not try to ape the Republican Government all the time. Even
ments set down by the Joint Matriculation
the Cabinet Ministers of the Republican Government (the protagonists of " apartheid'' ) have given their support to this party on the impracticability of the policy of separate development .
Board." That is why I am quoting here. "The effects of introducing a common basis of the syllabus is that the standards will have to "" be raised.'
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you discussing? Come back to education . That is too high for you .
talking
MR
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you about? Are you in Cape Town?
MR. RAJUILI : The trouble with you is that once you get confused you never know where you are - in the Transkei or Cape
RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , only re-
127.
is equal to that of a chief inspector? The people do not know what it is. Is it equal to a regional director? What is it exactly?
Town. (Laughter) He went on to say: " The Junior Certificate examination from 1969 also will have to be based on the common .. (Interjections) You are trying to ape the edu-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is what you see there. You are told there and you want to know more.
cation system that has been thrown away by Pretoria. It is a bad education system and I want to prove that to you . (Interjections)
MR . RAJUILI : We
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You would like to be the Minister of Education .
told you
what the
chief inspector should be two years ago and instead of taking the advice you collected teachers from all over and tried to make them
MR. RAJUILI: When you were unfortunately Minister of Education things were so bad that you were kicked out of that Department. However , we do not miss seeing what we think has been some fair improvement with this new young blood. The hon. Minister here agrees that the standard of education of his Department requires a lot of putting right . This would not have been necessary if this Government had taken the advice of adopting a system of education that has a common
experts to bring in a bad system of education . Now you are in trouble. Let me remind you again about this impracticable system you are trying to make the people believe can work . Only a little while ago you wanted a Department of Health . We warned you in 1964 and 1965 but because you are as stubborn as mules you would not pay attention . Listen to what I shall read to you now. This is what Dr. Hertzog has to say about the policy of separate development :
cause to prepare everybody to pass matriculation without covering this syllabus . Now they are finding themselves in a difficulty by trying to hang on to this polecat system of education . It is a stinking polecat and the smell remains on your hands. (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : For sake , that is not education .
goodness'
MR. RAJUILI: He says: "It would not be practicable at present to hand over health services in the Transkei to the Government
Now they say they are trying to improve this system of education which they were appealed to about years ago, which the former Minister of Education of this Government was
of that territory . If the health services there were hand ed over to the Government of the
appealed to in the transfer of an education system . The hon. Minister says in his
Transkei , most of the White doctors would leave and the standard of services would
speech: "My Department now has, for the first time since its inception (how sad! ) a properly organised and properly staffed professional planning section..." The question is: What has been happening in this Department before the new Minister came? Confu-
drop ." THE
MINISTER
OF
AGRICULTURE:
What has that got to do with this?
MR. RAJUILI : The honourable the Prime Minister of South Africa, in opening this
sion! There has been no planning. Bad laws were brought here and as a result the new
Assembly,
said that
whatever department
Minister had to undo all the corruption and sweep out the stable and transfer the new
they had asked for would be referred to the Ministers concerned, and these Ministers are
teachers. That is why it is so truthful to read that for the first time since its inception
replying now. For your information the Republican Government is so disappointed with this Government over the system of education in the Transkei because you are neither this side, you are neither that side - you are
there is a properly organised and properly staffed professional planning section . Then he goes on to some unfortunate words that only now they begin to find their feet. (Interjections) We welcome the idea of some promotions here because this side of the House did advise this blunt and blind Government to
just a hybrid type of a govemment, and everything depends on whether you have the Whites or not . Now here is a statement from Dr. Hertzog saying if the Whites left things would drop . A policy -less Government cannot bring forward any policy on education . Education is the cornerstone of the development of any race. There is this confusion in the Government. We have been telling you all
have a chief inspector in the Transkei but they were so pigheaded at the time they could not understand . Now we are told that and, incidentally , after all this planning , it is worth noting that the post of senior planner is equal to that of chief inspector. You know, this is like telling a person that does not
along you do not know the policy of separate
understand things that Junior Certificate is equal to third year. What are the duties of the chief planner as compared with that of a chief inspector of schools? How can you say they are equal ? When will this Govern-
is a good thing. (Interjections) Now the hon. Minister talks about technical education .
development.You do not even know education
Well , he has here made an attempt to find his feet as they are not able to find their feet. If you offer good jobs for trained people you will have not any difficulty in having
ment stop bluffing the people every time and say that the officer or the status of an officer
that system in your education backed up by
128.
the people. A little while ago this ment abolished the school board against wise advices and they told the chiefs would be able to do the
Govern-
teachers and open courses, but if they are to teach a bad system of education ..
system us that work of
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Look
education when they know nothing about education . (Interjections) Now the hon. Minister comes here with the idea that they have the right people to use their influence .
on page 8 . MR. RAJUILI :
Let the people of the
Transkei know what the system of education for their children is. Now when you talk of adaptation of syllabuses to the new basic matric syllabus , then there will be no
What influence can they have on education? I have never seen people fumbling and mumbling and not knowing where they are, such as these. They know nothing about education . They are only administrators of tribal
knowing what the system is. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I now
law. You have to have a system of education that has a common core. However, it is gratifying to see any Minister thinking that the system must be revised with care. I do not
understand why you failed Matric in English . (Laughter)
even know what is this Kaffir system of education, and here he must thank the former Minister for all he has done for so many years. He is so thick-headed himself that at least he must be thanked . The Minister talks
MR. RAJUILI : To tell us you have improved the salaries of teachers who teach rubbish does not help us. To be fair you must tell everybody that you are still continuing with the Bantu system of education which is not wanted by a single person in the Transkei . Be fair to the electorate.
about high schools at Osborne and things that have been done here and there and then he says his predecessor was not doing anything. We definitely can pause here and say
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Read here. You cannot see, that is all . Your eyes need rehabilitating . (Laughter)
that a young man is at least doing something . Don't be over-puffed up now, but at least we can see you have the broom in your hand when you get into that stable, and that you realise that you must drop this Kaffir system of education in the Transkei so that our education can compare competently with the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : wanted the school boards to remain .
You
MR. RAJUILI : The hon . the Minister of Justice has so confused us that it is difficult to know what he would say in this
sy stem required by the J.M.B. In Maluti region last year we wondered whether we would be treated as a step-child and we can
House. So with these few sweets, that we do see some change and some light , I wish to
now look forward, we hope , but we cannot accept from the hon . Minister that there were any reasons beyond their control for the failure to establish a long promised school .
thank the hon. Minister for those inspiring words and we hope he lives up to them because the trouble is they never live up to the words they say to the public . (Interjections ) He must break the chains of Bantu
This side of the House cannot accept that . You cannot have a Minister of State coming foward to say that the difficulties that were concerning us have now been overcome. The title deeds have been given and the building handed over to Roads and Works and after
education and throw them away and we will know they are telling the truth . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I
that we were told there were circumstances
hope the Chair will understand the rule that you give ten minutes to each speaker.
beyond their control . You cannot reason with that . The few words in that transaction I shall not go into because it appears , as I say , that we should look up with hope to this young blood.
THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Yes,
I
know. He was leading the Opposition side. MR .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Any-
P. SOBAHLE :
Mr. Chairman and
hon. members, in support of the policy statement made by the hon . the Minister of Education , I wish there should be honesty and
one would think you were older than I am when you talk of young blood.
sincerity in the House. I think if we are going to continue at this rate we are wasting not only the time of the House , but even the money of the taxpayers . If we are not going to be sincere, we should sit down . The hon .
MR . RAJUILI : No one would think that , with your bald head. (Laught er) Mr. Chairman, this policy speech has not shown clearly what the Govemment is doing with regard to the education system in the Trans-
member of the Opposition , the last speaker, has spoken fairly well of the policy speech of the Minister of Education . Unfortunately ignorance, which is the greatest disease of the soul, has crept into his mind . He does
kei .
It is not buying many books in arithme tic, English and Afrikaans and giving them to the children . The question is whether the the system of education is a good one , before we spend money on rubbish . You can train
not know that education is a world- and race-
129 .
MR. RAJUILI: Yes , and they run the same ( system as the Whites.
building function . Education is a deeply involved matter. I will go further and say that education is an increasing realisation of the personal and temporal values of life.
MR. SOBAHLE: When it was announced in this House I think it was stated that this
MR. K.M. GUZANA : This is abstract-
was merely a temporary measure. (Interjections) We are on the road towards perfection ,
minded philosophy.
so that in course of time you will find that instead of regional authorities there will be a council. (Interjections) How long did it take the Cape Education Department to pro-
MR . SOBAHLE: So it is not only concerned with the personal position, but more with regard to the future of the generation, SO it is concerned with humanity in its
vide advisory boards like the examination board and the book board? From 1652 it was
destiny .
only in 1919 that those opportunities were created . When we talk in this chamber we
MR. RAJUILI : Which education are you referring to. Would you say the same about Bantu Education?
must talk from knowledge so that when people listen to us they can carry away the views of this chamber in their true perspective. We must not try and play to the gallery. We have come here for business and that business concerns the people whom we
MR. SOBAHLE: I am coming to that . All education implies teaching and teaching implies knowledge , and knowledge implies truth. OPPOSITION
MEMBERS:
were sent to represent .
Hear, hear.
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to make a few remarks
MR . SOBAHLE: And this truth is the
on what is happening under the Department of Education . The last speaker from this side of the House indicated quite clearly
same every where, hence education will alalways be the same under any political , social or economic conditions . (Interjec-
what matters were accepted by this side of the House in the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education , but I think too
tions) Please listen . The only differences are in organisation , in administration , in local customs and habits , but these are
much confetti might well interfere with the vision of the hon . Minister . I would like to
merely details . Even the details themselves will have a similarity since human societies have a general similarity.
point out one or two things which I think should receive the attention of this Department very soon . I shall not repeat what I said in the no- confidence debate . I shall deal with other matters . I am concerned
OPPOSITION MEMBER : Why have separate development then?
over the fact that in an effort to get the African to take over senior positions in the Department of Education , the tendency is to
MR. SOBAHLE: And education , if it is rightly understood , is the development of the intellect and this cultivation of intellect is the same for all men in all societies . That is
take the qualified teacher out of the classroom . Thus a teacher with a professional
the analysis of education , gentlemen. I will not over-emphasize the rise in salaries of
certificate and a degree does not remain in the classroom , but is promoted to the inspectorate. What is happening now is that you
teachers announced by the hon . the Minister of Education. With due respect to the Cabinet I will only appeal to them to increase them more. With regard to the chief inspector in the Transkei , I think the hon. member is behind schedule. Chief inspectors have always been created The first post was Natives in the Cape . education now. We are now. OPPOSITION
do not have a man with a professional certificate and a degree going into the classroom to take the place of the degreed man who has been promoted. The University College of Fort Hare is not producing as many Xhosaspeaking graduates as the number of graduates who are being promoted into the inspectorate in the Transkei . The result is that you
for Native education . created in 1919 for We are not on Native on universal education
MEMBER:
No ,
you
have your degreed men, your professional men in the (inspectorate having to examine or inspect the work of a matriculant or an
are
N.P.H. man who has had to take over the wrong .
job of the promoted graduate . Thus the standard of instruction, the content passed on to the pupil is much lower because the
MR . SOBAHLE: Now the hon . member talked
about
liaison
bodies
between the
teachers and the parents . If he reads the Coloured Education Act he will find that Coloured education has no regional authoritries . He will find that there is a Coloured
teacher is not sufficiently qualified to teach the children adequately, and the inspector who is a graduate has to inspect this inferior work which is done by a poorly qualified teacher. My own view is that I would rather
Education Advisory Council .
be without inspectors and have all the good 130.
in rehabilitated and unrehabilitated areas?
teachers in the classroom , because I am then assured that there need be no inspection because the teacher in the classroom is suf-
MR. GUZANA: I will answer you when we come to your vote.ner bos In
ficiently qualified to teach those pupils.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What is experience of human nature? Would those teachers do their work well without your
are running away from it.
being inspected?
MR. GUZANA: Why should there be a difference? Whether the area is rehabilitated
MR. GUZANA : The trouble is that you
or not the children require to be rehabilitated educationally , and this is a form of educational rehabilitation about which we are
are making the inspectorate top-heavy with graduates and weeding the graduat es out of the classroom. That is my complaint . If we had the teachers in the classroom the in-
concerned at the present moment. The next point I wanted to deal with is the position of the district clerk in the Department's hier-
spector could deal with a greater number of
there is efficiency in the classroom .
archy. There have been complaints that district clerks have been by- passed in administrative matters and more often than not
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Some of the graduates take up law.
they have complained that they have been advised by the teachers concerned of straight transfers between teachers which have al-
MR. GUZANA: If they take up law it is a profession in which we require qualified people as well. They decide that for them-
ready been completed on a higher level without reference to the clerk .
schools than is the case at present because
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
selves, but in this particular instance it is the Department of Education which decides this issue and that is why we want a change of attitude to the teacher who is in the
That is the
policy. He is merely a clerk, not an employer.
MR. GUZANA: He is an important figure in the administration of the district.
classroom . He must be the good man and not the inspector because he must teach the
MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman and hon.
children. Sir , you have indicated that there is a great fall-off of pupils in our schools , and I think it is a matter which gives you as much concern as everyone else who seeks to see the children educated adequately . The Education Act does provide for some com-
members, I wish to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon . Minister . I was listening here to the F.M. while it was talking so loudly. (Laughter) I never like to criticize anyone because I was not brought up in that manner . I had expected the first
pulsory education where the circumstances permit, thank God , but my own view is that compulsory education should become the
speaker to assist this House in a way , but my hon . friend took the whole subject and turned it upside down. (Laughter) From there we did not know whether he was in the Old
policy of the Education Department. All education is pyramidal in structure · wider at the base and getting narrower higher up. What
Testament or the New Testament or in Reve-
would be your choice if you had R10,000 and there is a secondary school to be put up and four primary schools to be put up? I am
lations. We praise the Education Department for raising these estimates and creating these additional posts for teachers. A great
giving that illustration to make you see how essential it is that moneys and materials should be used in putting up our primary
deal of work has been done by this Department . They have created many new posts and most of them have been filled , although
schools , so that there is a broad base of education and at least the children are kept in school and can be compelled to come to school because there is accommodation
some of them are still vacant. For that we thank them . The one hon . member on the Opposition side reminds me of the story of the man who suffered from heart trouble and went to the doctor. The doctor operated upon him and found that his heart was no longer any
available and so that they do not fall away spending only one or two years at school , but so that they can be accommodated and kept at school up to Std . 3, 4 or 5. The hon . Minister can bite over this bone after
good , so he took a pig's heart to put in its place. When the man got home he was given decent food to eat, but he asked for dirty water instead. This disease is growing be-
and think what is indeed the best solution , but I believe if you make the accommodation available and compel the children to go there then our children will leave school at
cause each time something good is placed before the Opposition it is criticized. (Laughter) I also wish to thank the Republican Government for making it possible for us
a higher standard than they do at the moment.
to get these sums of money.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Do
We ask the
Education Department to go on with its good work by opening more channels for our
you make any distinction between education
131.
people . It is useless to keep on talking nonsense . We thank the Education Department for the great work done.
ing now to the buildings, this is a very important matter. The excuse that there is no money for the buildings is quite unfounded. MR.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chaiman , and hon. members , I wish to speak on this edu-
R. MSENGANA:
Mr.
Chairman and
hon. members , I would like to associate myself with the policy speech made by the hon . the Minister of Education . Before doing so I
cation policy . It has been said very often here that education should be lifted above
would like to comment favourably on some of
party politics and that is very important because education is the real backbone of a
the views expressed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . I do not think it was pos-
nation. We wish to thank the Department for the increase in salaries, although we still
sible for anyone to find fault with the policy speech of the Minister and the efforts he is making to improve education , unless it be a red-blanketed man who holds his opinion in
hope for greater increases. I want to draw the attention of the Department to the fact that education should be shouldered by the Govemment and not by the people. I am pleased to leam from this policy speech that books will be issued free to the pupils, and I would like to encourage the Department to
spite of the views that are most convincing. Apart from the very satisfactory nature of his speech , he has taken steps to bring about tangible improvements very speedily in the education of the Transkei . Quite often we find the leaders in these departments are
go forward with this scheme. The hon . Minister also mentioned that separate develop-
able people theoretically , but when it comes to practical things they fail dismally . One of the unworthy things was that so many young people were employed in the teaching profession during the course of the year. We are particularly thankful that his idea is that
ment gives us other privileges which we never had before. There may be something in what he says, but we cannot run away from the fact that the policy is unacceptable. (Interjections) The hon . Minister spoke about the changing times and it is true that the people have to keep abreast of the times. Whilst I am still on that subject I would like to give some advice. He spoke about progress
people should be employed to teach at the beginning of the year and not in the course of the year, because the people who obtained loans to pay for their studies were usually in a difficulty as to how to repay that money if they only started teaching in the middle of the year. We are very grateful that the Department has noted that the standard of edu cation in Std. 6 was too low and that efforts
in our economic and agricultural life and that is ture. These aspects are supposed to progress with the people. I would like the Transkei Govemment to think over what I have to say , however. It is a custom in the schools
-
and villages and everywhere that when a boy or girl does something wrong they are given spades to go and work in the garden . That instils into the pupil's mind the idea that it is a curse to wield a spade or fork, whereas
are being made to raise the standard as an entry to secondary education . With regard to the difficulty he mentions about poor attendance at school, if we would forget our party differences in this House and help one
it is quite cor dect for a child to learn to use a spade, but not as a punishment. When this child leaves school he will think it is a
form of punishment should be imposed so that the child will not grow up with the idea that it is a curse to wield a spade.
another with regard to rehabilitation schemes , then we would help one another considerably with regard to the poor attendance of children at school. If a person felt that he would incur the hatred of the people in his area if he talked about rehabilitation then it would
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What
be best for that person to be silent about it . We would advise that such an individual
curse to use a spade or fork. Some other
should not go to other areas to preach again st rehabilitation because he has not been able to do so in his own area . Further, in any
do you suggest?
MR . JAFTA: I would suggest something like corporal punishment . There is another
area where the majority of the inhabitants accept rehabilitation then it should be
thing which worries me , speaking as a man from the village. The children there go to school during a certain period . There are bad times when people are ploughing. I wish
accepted generally in that area. (Interjections) Apart from that, compulsory education would bring about many difficulties to the Bantu people if rehabilitation is not carried
to ask the Education Department if it could not be arranged that when these quarterly holidays come they should coincide with the ploughing season . The children sometimes go to school but the results are bad and no
on simultaneously, because the majority of the Bantu pa rents still require their children to look after the stock. The question raised by the hon . the Leader of th e Opposition as regards the promotion of graduates to senior posts presents many difficulties, because year in, year out the members of the Opposi-
ploughing is done. I wish to ask that during that quarter of ploughing something should be done. Perhaps you will see other difficulties that may arise. I am just pointing out to your Department the facts as they are . Com-
tion keep on asking how many of the seconded officials have been replaced by Transkei
132.
citizens.
special course at Shawbury in order to provide for teaching services, but he delights in the fact that teachers are leaving. Per-
MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in participating in this debate I want to say ta the outset that we are prepared to accept those aspects of the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Education which we regard as positive · for instance, the
sonally , Mr. Chairman , I think that is a very unsatisfactory position indeed , (Interjections) because if it were to be granted that separate development is a good policy , it should at the same time be granted that when se parate development is not able to produce
question of the raising of the salary scales for teachers , and also making possible opportunities in refresher courses - because we feel that those things are very necessary in
enough teachers then even as a temporary measure the white teachers who are available should have their services retained for as long as the position here is unsatisfac-
the establishment of any satisfactory service. At the same time we are equally prepared to
tory. But what is happening? The Minister is encouraging brain erosion as far as teaching services are concerned. He is prepared to eliminate without substitution. This position
state what we regard as flaws in the policy and the practices of the Department. In this regard my general impression is that the
is further aggravated by what the hon. the
Government, particularly as symbolized by the Department of Education , tends to have
Leader of the Opposition pointed out in the course of his speech when he remarked on
an obsession about its policy of separate
the lack of wisdom in promoting the adequately qualified teacher, the degreed teacher 0 •
development. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am afraid the interpreter has been led up the garden path by the member across the floor . Obsession does not mean
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , he canvassed that point adequately. You are going to smash it.
"pambene" .
MR. BUBU: ... While the hon. Minister
MR. GUZANA : What does it mean? It is a form of madness. (Laughter)
again prides himself on carrying out his policy by saying: " Our progress has been
MR. lance .
quite spectacular since last year and proves that the policy of separate development is creating opportunities for our people ."
BUBU:
They tend towards imba-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Could the interpreter move away from the Leader of
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You
the Opposition? He seems not to be an inter-
see, if you will keep repeating what has al-
preter but a mouthpiece . (Laughter)
ready been said I will move that the debate be closed.
MR . BUBU : Mr. Chairman , I think you MR. BUBU : This shows that the hon . Minister is obsessed with the policy of se-
will take into account that my time is being used up . On page 3 of his address the hon . Minister makes reference to the question of
parate development . Inspection circuits have
teaching staff under the Department. He says: " In dealing with staff I would draw attention to the fact that the number of seconded Repu-
been created specially to make this statement
blican teachers in my Department has decreased by 17 during the " past year and that the remaining 53 teachers represent less than one per cent of the total number of teachers
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , you missed the point there . MR . BUBU:
possible
.so that it might be
said this policy provides opportunities , but the hon. Minister does not see that this is
in the Department ." As can be seen , Mr. Chairman, he gloats over this position . He prides himself on it as an achievement. I wonder how he relates this position in re-
bringing imbalance in the teaching services . That is why I say, Mr. Chairman, they are suffering from an obsession . (Laughter)
gard to Republican teachers to the position of his department of not having enough teach ers? Last y ear our attention was
Further, the hon . Minister has failed to carry out a decision of this Assembly. In 1964 a select committee, on which he had a seat ...
drawn to the fact by the then Minister of Education , that teaching services are so inadequate that the Department had to try and campaign for teachers to come from outside the Transkei . From what has been said in
THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Time up .
MR. BUBU : Mr. Chairman , I would like to remind you that my time was taken up .
the course of his speech , that position has not altered materially , but the hon . Minister here delights in having not as many teachers as he would like to have. His position today is such that he has been compelled to open a
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I did give you extra time . MR . E. MHLAHLO : Mr. Chairman and
133.
children should be subsidised on a 50 per
hon . members , I rise to support the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Education and I would like to touch on a few important
cent basis by the department. This recommendation was accepted unanimously by the
points in this speech. (Inte jections)
Assembly. I note that in his speech he is prepared only to help the children with an
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. You make it impossible for the stenographer to hear.
arithmetic book and an English and Afrikaans language book. I want to say to him that this only scratches the surface . The books are very expensive and one of the reasons why there is the low standard of which he is
MR . MHLAHLO: First of all , on page 2 we are thankful to see the increase in teachers' salaries . That will in some way stop
complaining in his speech is this expense of the books , particularly in view of the fact
teachers leaving the Transkei and going to other places to seek work. (Interjections )
that there are so many subjects in the primary school . There is a large number of stationery items that they must obtain and if
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
the Department could carry out that recommendation of the committee the position
MR. MHLAHLO: We are also grateful for the new posts which have been created .
would be greatly relieved . Further, I have to say in this connection that I do not know
Some of the points have already been touched on by other speakers and I will keep to what is in my head. We are also grateful for the refresher courses for teachers . (Interjections)
whether this thing is actually happening, because I have known children actually buying arithmetic books , buying language manuals and readers . I would be very glad if the hon . Minister would take that into consi-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please do make such a noise, hon . members .
deration . Another point I would like to bring forth is that we have been told, on page 8,
not
that the Matriculation Board of the Republic of South Africa has made some changes in the syllabuses and that this has been in the
MR. MHLAHLO : We are also grateful for a leader who is an educational planner, a man similar to one in Cape Town who is known as the chief inspector. How can we not be grateful when the Transkei is progressing? How can we criticize this policy
the Department seems not to have been aware of this, although it stat es so in the policy,
speech when we see that actually the Transis now progressing. (Interjections) kei
because we find that these syllabuses are being put into operation in the Transkei ab-
of being carried out during the last process five years. It is striking to me how it is that
ruptly this year. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They were being drawn up during those years. They
Hon . members , I would not like to name anyone here. Please do not make such a noise .
were not completed.
MR . MHLAHLO : The hon . Minister says that a third high school would have been started at Matatiele, had it not been for
MR. BU BU: If so , why a re they being applied abruptly here without the teachers
circumstances beyond the control of the Department of Education . This high school
having been prepared for them? We were told , for instance , a week or two ago by the hon. the Chief Minister that a certain Mr. Watson
will now be opened in 1968. That is what we
was here to instruct teachers in the new
have been clamouring for in Maluti . Now the hon. the Minister of Education is doing his best to meet us with regard to our progress .
syllabus. He has come to instruct them in this when they are already finding themselves in a maze . Before I came to the
How can we then criticize his policy speech? Besides other good aspects in his speech we on this side of the House say we accept and we agree. We accept unconditionally , Mr.
were complaining about this and that is why I say it is shocking that the teachers seem to
Minister of Education . One can see that you are a civilized, educated Minister. There is
have been taken by surprise by the J.M.B. I say that the hon . Minister must be awake .
Assembly here I met several teachers who
nothing bad in your policy speech. It is full THE
MINISTER
OF
JUSTICE:
Mr.
of beauty. It has been the Democratic Party's policy to go to a dark house and when they
Chairman and hon . members, during the no-
get into this house they see a black cat . (Interjections)
confidence debate I complimented the hon . the Leader of the Opposition on his outlook on education . He discarded what has been
MR. T.H. BUBU : Mr. Chairman , I say
their practice so far, the practice of wanting the old Cape system of education . All educa-
the hon . Minister has failed lamentably to carry out a decision that was arrived at in
tion must be changed from time to time. (Inter-
this House in 1964. In that year the select committee on which he had a seat recommen-
jections) I appreciate the Leader's complaint against the practice of promoting teachers to
ded that school books for primary school
the inspectorate, but let it be remembered
134.
that although the Government may have certain views , the teachers likewise have their
The debate was adjourned. cedaem
views. If we keep them in the classroom whilst others elsewhere are getting more money they will leave . I believe that my hon. friend who has just sat down ran away for this very reason and went into business .
THE
short erblo d DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon mem-
bers, I wish to advise you that I have been informed that the hon. the Minister of the Interior will not be in a position to give his policy speech tomorrow and I shall therefore ask the hon . the Minister of Agriculture to be ready .
MR. GUZANA: If you improve the teachers' salaries in the classroom would there be need for them to run away?
MR .
K.M.
GUZANA:
Mr.
Chairman, I
hope you realise that people who would have
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The ques-
put in amendments under that head are now cut short by this advancement , and that they will be given an opportunity to put in amendments . Fi TEHO STUSEO SHT
tion of having more primary schools than secondary schools is also debatable. I would like to compare that position to a person who has a slice of bread with a little butter. He
House Resumed
could place a little on the whole slice, thereby merely reducing it to a smell of butter, or he could on the other hand swallow a big loaf of bread . The question now arises:
LOVIMA JEM
The Deputy Chaiman reported progress.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 10th May, 1967 .
If we increase the number of primary schools and neglect the secondary schools, where are we going to get the teachers to teach in
WEDNESDAY, 10TH MAY , 1967 T
the primary schools? (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.
THE
MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This re-
minds me of two principals of institutions. One was the Revd . Govan of Lovedale , whose
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
idea was to educate to a very high standard a small number of students , but when Dr. Stewart arrived he believed in mass educa-
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
tion . I think this question is quite debatable . Again, in connection with compulsory education I am reminded of a Bechuanal and chief who once said to Dr. Moffat : " I tell these
112
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I move that this House now converts itself into committee of
people all they should do but they will not follow me to church . I think the solution to
supply.
this would be to whip them . " At the present moment only 80 per cent of the children are attending school and yet there is still no
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second Mr. Chairman .
compulsory education. When we talk of rehabilitation we tread on the toes of certain people, but in our view children in rehabilitated areas can be made to go to school
Agreed to . House in Committee
The debate on Vote 3 ( Education) was resumed .
because the stock is kept in paddocks and there is no need for the children to look after it . We are grateful for the progress that has been made in education . Allow me now to
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, we now come back to con-
comment on the remarks made by my hon . friend in the white suit (Revd . B.S. Rajuili) . I do not know why the Opposition regards this member as an expert in education . I once met a teacher who had been his collea-
sider the Transkei Appropriation Bill and I would like to draw the attention of members that we have two amendments before us to consider, one moved by the hon . Mr. B.S. Rajui li and another one by the hon . Mr. H.H. Zibi.
gue at Wilberforce . He said if the standard of all graduates was like this, then the standard must be very low. (Laughter) I understand
MR .
this hon . member is a Minister of religion and if he were to stand up in a pulpit to preach I
H.H.
ZIBI :
Mr.
Chairman ,
that
amendment is there in error and I therefore to withdraw it. It should be Vote 4 and not Vote 3. That amendment is shown lower down on the order paper .
would collect my belongings and go home . He was once asked to lead the prayers and he got busy looking for prayer books . The hon. member who referred to him as the F.M. was
THE
correct . (Laughter)
135.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Does the
MR. MADIKIZELA: And we want to see those lady teachers nice and round , Mr.
House agree to the withdrawal? Agreed to.
Chairman. ( Laughter ) I knew a Coloured school which was going strong on two
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chaimman , in an
teachers for 25 pupils. I was told from a reliable source that as long as they were
arrangement between you and myself, Sir, there was submitted to you some names and I thought you would probably give these mem-
assured of an average attendance of 15 that state of affairs would go on . There is an
bers an opportunity to discuss generally . There is only one amendment to this vote and I thought if possible you would give these people an opportunity generally to talk. We may consider letting off the bald-headed Minister by (Laughter)
withdrawing
this
enviable position , Mr. Chairman .
But
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: not conducive to multi -racialism.
MR. MADIKIZELA: No , I am just com-
amendment .
paring . There is another matter which cannot be over-emphasized and that is the question of salary scales. We appreciate the rise, indeed we are grateful for it - but a state of affairs can never be countenanced when a
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to draw the attention of the House to certain points raised by the hon. the Minister of Education in the course
man is engaged in the same profession with equal qualifications , but when it comes to pay there is differential pay. The Republic an Government is economising on the Transkei with the collusion of the Transkei Govem-
of his address yesterday . He made mention of the failure of pupils to attend regularly at school, and he said (and rightly so too) that the matter was causing grave concern; but concern of an equal degree of gravity is also being caused by the Department of Education
ment. Their policy seems to be to fill the Transkei posts with Transkei citizens and pay them a Native salary.
indirectly, and perhaps inadvertently , in transferring teachers from one school to
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Wie
another without adequate provision or the minimum of delay in regard to replacements. A teacher has been transferred from a school near to me to another and it is now a week and there has been no replacement - and that
pay them . They are not paid by the Republican Government.
MR. MADIKIZE LA: The Republican nment Gover has so far succeeded in this that
is not an isolated case. Early this week I met the principal of another school and he infomed me that a number of his staff had
they have been able to pay their second ed staff a White man's salary and a territorial allowance of fabulous proportions . It also pleased the hon. the Minister of Education to say that now the Transkei Government had
been transferred and there had been no replacements there again. That is detrimental to the cause of our education. The progress of the pupil is retarded and organisational difficulties are made more difficult for the
found its feet, We were happy to leam that and we hope that the Department of Education will be able to find a suitable solution
principal . And still more on the question of transfer, the Education Department is presently in the habit of transferring teachers from
for all the problems that beset it. Another question that is raised in so far as education is concerned is that of failures in the high
school to school at short notice by telegram during the middle of the month , during the
schools . The tendency of the authorities is to send away children who have failed J.C. and
middle of the quarter. That creates the problem of adjustment between pupil and teacher. We know that transfers are inevitable , but they must be made less undesirable and the transition must be made as congenial as possible. The hon. the Minister of Education
Matric and not to give them a chance to repeat . I wish the hon . Minister would pay heed to that . Another point is that of books . The authorities tend to demand so much for books from the pupils instead of submitting
also raised the question of the number of pupils per teacher. That was a commendable notion from him , but he seemed to direct his
a list to the pupils , because sometimes they might be able to acquire the books by other means · for instance from brothers or sisters .
attention only to secondary schools and particularly to Form I classes . What about
Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
the primary schools, Mr. Chairman? I know CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman a teacher who handled a class of 110 pupils. I was surprised at that , but what was my surprise when early this year I met a lady teacher who informed me that she was hand-
and hon. members, I would like to direct the mind of the hon . the Minister of Education to the fact that two posts have been created for this financial year . I will refer you to page
ling a class of 150. That is killing . 9 of the estimates of expenditure. You will notice under "Salaries" that there are
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Was
two assistant secretaries and those officials
that a double session?
are seconded officials .
136.
According to last
year's estimates of expenditure those posts did not exist . This year two posts of Senior Educational Planner have been created, one
least a month or two , and the children are left alone . Does that not mean that when
White and one Black. Last year there was a professional assistant who was an African .
these teachers return , the children will be behind in their work? Is that not retardation in education?
To my mind one of these two secretaries will concentrate on administration and the other
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I will
will be an assistant on the professional side . I cannot understand why the professional assistant secretary
reply to you when my time comes. CHIEF
There
is
another
point which I think our leader touched upon in connection with principal teachers leaving secondary schools to become inspectors. What draws them? It is the salaries . You do not have the same scales , or almost the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you creating your own posts? What is this nomenclature?
CHIEF NDAMASE :
NDAMASE:
There is not much
same scales, for principals of secondary schools as for inspectors. That should be rectified by you chiefs . The salaries of the teachers in the secondary schools should be improved. Another factor which leads to retardation is teachers taking their pensions .
difference in the salary of the Senior Educational Planner and that of the assistant secretary , and the African would be an assistant on the professional side.
These pensioned teachers are made princi-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is that
pal teachers, whereas there are assistant teachers who could be appointed. Do you
your policy? CHIEF NDAMASE: If I am a member of
mean to tell us that amongst those assistant teachers there are none who could be promoted to principal teachers?
the Assembly that is my policy . (Interjections) I want to make it clear that this Department is still continuing the retardation
MR.
of education started by the Republican Govemment. There is something which is known as the "platoon
E.G.
SIHELE:
Mr. Chairman
and
hon . members, I am pleased to stand up here to say a word of thanks to the Education Department for its fine work. As a father of children, it has helped me immensely, more especially in connection with the good
system ". In that
system this is what happens , if I am not mistaken: A set of teachers works from 7 a.m. to 11 a.m. and after that another set comes in. I do not know how long they continue , but
buildings. It has been given to all regional
I think that system was brought about by the shortage of classrooms. I do not criticize the shortage , but would the Government
authorities that they should ask for schools . I notice that the people who have been sent to this House to build up the Transkei throw stones instead . I refer to a speech made by one hon. member and the Leader of the Oppo-
not ask for assistance from the Republican Government to overcome this?
I
sition, when he said that compulsory education should be introduced. (Interjections)
think you used the wrong word to start with . What is retardation?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
THE
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION :
CHIEF NDAMASE: As the hon . Mr. Madikizela said, the Department transfers teachers from one school to another and does
MR. SIHELE : Well , that is something good and no one can refute it, even those who do not want it. The power to introduce com-
not replace them . I wish the hon . Minister would listen .
pulsory education has been given to the regional authorities . Why has the hon . the Leader of the Opposition not asked for compulsory education in Tembuland?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I cannot listen to rubbish. What is this retardation?
MR . GUZANA: Force the children to go to school in hovels - is that it?
CHIEF NDAMASE: Your figures show that each teacher does not teach less than
MR. SIHELE: The schools will be built. The money is there. (Interjections)
55 pupils. Does that not show that the teachers are too few, and is there not retardation as a result?
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Sit down , you are talking nonsense.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You were speaking of the platoon system .
16
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. SIHELE: If you don't ask for a thing you won't get it . I say to you you must
CHIEF NDAMASE : I have told you about that . Another point is that teachers are sent to refresher courses where they remain for at
ask the people of Engcobo to ask for com137 .
fed with nutritious food in the moming . It is on that point that I appeal to the hon. Minister to take note that these younger children should be fed at school . (Interjections) The low percentage which was mentioned when
pulsory education and you will hear what they are going to say . MR . GUZANA: How can I ask for compulsory education when there are no school buildings?
the hon . Mr. Dana asked his question is unworthy and I would appeal to the hon . Minis-
MR. SIHELE: We are not worried because
ter to try and avoid these low percentages referred to . I hope that in the carrying out of his duties he will take particular note of this and find out how these percentages can be improved. What really requires a strong foundation is the lower classes when the
we shall ask for compulsory education in Emigrant Tembuland. We are still busy with the rehabilitation work and we are in the last stages , and as soon as that is finished compulsory education will be introduced .
children are still in the sub groups. I will repeat that it happens that school books
(Interjections) I would like to see the people who do not want rehabilitation enforcing education in the areas they are representing . I
arrive at the school sometimes only after a quarter has passed and that assists retarda-
will come now to another point for which we
tion . The books are so late in coming that
are grateful to the Education Department, and that is the promotion of our educated Bantu
the parents who are educated provide books for their own children , and the parents who are not educated see no reason why they should buy the books. When a child finds he
to higher posts. They have been prophesying that the white people would give way to the Africans and I am disappointed with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for critising the idea of promoting a highly qualified African . Instead of trying to build up the
is not making the progress that other children are making then he feels he ought to leave school. In studying the policy speech I find there is no mention of homecraft supervisors. I think the work of these homecraft
nation we keep on fighting over politics . They come here, having been sent by the people, and they are being paid for coming here ...
supervisors is very important. I know we had two of these previously . I do not know whether we still have only the two or whether
wasted money in
there are more. These homecraft supervisors cover the same area as is covered by supervisors of schools and inspectors and as far as I know there may be only two of them over a large area. I do not think any of them has ever had any promotion . I think they are still holding the same positions they held before. I think they travel with a great deal of diffi-
MR.
GUZANA:
Who
sending you here? (Laughter)
MR. SIHELE: They have been sent to build up, but instead of that they are pulling do wn and criticizing the rules and regulations governing this Assembly. It is a pity, Mr. Chaiman, that the majority of these people were supposed to have been taken and
culty because no transport is provided for them to move from school to school . Here is
put into gaol . (Laughter) They took an oath
something which does not appeal to me at all . In the high schools the children are taught agriculture and not domestic science. I do not look down on agricultural education , but I would like to see them being taught proper methods of cooking the produce from
that they would not break any law of this House but as soon as they come into this House they break the rules . MISS L.
TWETWA: Mr. Chairman
and
hon . members, I stand up to debate this question of education and I would like to
the garden . Another point I would like to refer to is when a teacher is appointed to a school, very often the school committee does
refer first to page 9 of the policy speech where the hon . Minister refers to young children who leave school at an early age and
not know anything about such an appointment . Although the Govemment has solved the situation by allowing married women to take posts it does happen in some schools that a
he seeks the co-operation of the parent in this regard. However , I ask for his assistance in the name of the parents so that he will take steps to meet this situation. The younger children require the services of the
long period elapses without teachers , and the parents are told there are no teachers
I.S.T. teachers . I will not go deeply into that question , because the method of teaching
available. The children who go to schools where such a situation occurs often leave
such children is by the play method. In the past people who had experience conducted education in the schools and that position
the school when no teacher is provided . I wish the hon. Minister to take note of these points.
still holds today. If we are making progress we should ask for people who are not thoroughly trained to be trained properly . The children who leave school at an early age are those whose parents are not well educa-
MR .
P.
SO BAHLE : Mr. Chairman
and
hon. members , I think we should not dwell much now on the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Education , because it has been commended, and if we are allowed more
ted. For one thing the parents do not und erstand that the children should be properly
time to speak on it I think we shall speak
138.
without end. With regard to the last speaker's remarks on home craft supervisors , or home-
MR. SOBAHLE: Have you done anything about teachers?
craft education , it should be realised that one of the peculiar functions of a school is to pursue pure knowledge so that the school must be relieved from the immediate demands
MR. GUZANA: I am not supposed to do anything about teachers . (Interjections)
of concrete action. (Interjections) In other words, the school is the home of pure theory and we must realise that the educational
MR. SOBAHLE: The qualification of the teacher must be no curse on him . After all, what is education? It is to make a man
policy we are now embarking upon must not be inferior to that of another racial group , so
complete in himself, worth while, a person whose usefulness is a consequence of his
we are not going to introduce things which obtained under Native education .
inner worth . Hence a qualified teacher must not be pinned down to the classroom because he is a man who is complete in himself.
OPPOSITION
MEMBERS:
Hear,
hear. MR. GUZANA: That is being philosophical indeed about a situation . The man must
MR. SOBAHLE : Unfortunately I was not here when the hon . the Leader of the Oppo sition talked of compulsory education, but
be useful to others. You don't educate him for his own benefit.
compulsory attendance is logically connected with gratuitous learning, otherwise it would be unfair to the poor and uneducated . Still, free education without compulsory attendance would create special privilege
MR . SOBAHLE : Will the hon. the Leader of the Opposition know he is no educationist . I am an educationist.
MR . GUZANA : Thank God I am not one.
for the educated and the rich , because the illiterate would not take advantage of that
(Laughter)
privilege of sending their children to school. MR .
Throughout history compulsory attendance must have its logical connection with free education . (Interjections) I quote : " During
SOBAHLE: Unfortunately he was
never a principal of a secondary school or a high school . Now with regard to the salary
the time of the Superintendent-General of Education, Dr. Viljoen, when he introduced compulsory attendance the education was
scales, it is the tendency of the teacher to leave the teaching profession. (Interjections)
made free up to the age of 15 or 16. " The question is : Are you going to embark upon that? And it was free transport , and it was free accommodation for indigent children -
secondary school and the supervisor financially, with this revision of the salary scales, is only R21 . Now remember where the supervisor is going to stay . He is not going to
(Interjections) ideas which do not obtain in real life. The hon . member from the Nyanda
stay with his family (Interjections) so should he earn more than a principal who stays in
region talked of the enrolment of children per teacher as 50 or 55. He must realise that the
his own house? With regard to school committees not being informed
The difference between the principal of a
minimum quota for a self- sufficient state is 25 pupils per teacher, and the maximum of a
THE DEPUTY
The question is: Can the Transkei Govemment afford now to limit the quota to 40 at this stage?
Time up,
MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am no educationist ; I am no philosopher. I am just a layman like the hon. member for Emigrant Tembuland , Mr. Sihele,
MR. GUZANA: Isn't that the result of its own policy? MR. SOBAHLE: Regarding the of teachers, there has been a cry we are reducing the number of school teachers by promoting them visors and inspectors .
CHAIRMAN :
hon. member. The next speaker will be the last to speak on this policy speech generally and after that I will introduce amendments.
self-sufficient state is 40 pupils per teacher .
promotion
so I stand up to speak just because he spoke a lot of nonsense. (Laughter) This
here that secondary as super-
House is in the habit of speaking for the sake of speaking ; criticizing for the sake of criticizing. We are here to make constructive criticism , so when a man speaks we must listen to him carefully and understand his point of view; so when you stand up to answer his point of view you must not just speak for the sake of being disagreeable. In politics we have to disagree - not to be
MR. GUZANA: Are you speaking in your capacity as ex-Chaim an of the Public Service Commission or as a member of the Government side? MR . SOBAHLE : I am a TLA member
disagreeable . In my view, as a layman , there was much substance in what the hon . member, Mr. Guzana, said about the promotion of inspectors. In the light of the educational philosophy of the hon. Mr. Sobahle , the specific
now.
MR. GUZANA: Well you have not done anything about teachers , so keep quiet.
139 .
aim of education is to create a man within himself a man must be useful to himself
the 100 yards and one young lad came behind , thinking he was going to be last, and that was the hon. the Minister of Education . I would therefore like to give him some breathing space no w and withdraw this
and to the society in which he lives. So what is wrong with the suggestion that you should not take an efficient man from the classroom
amendment .
and give him a higher post , leaving no -one to replace him in the classroom?
THE OPPOSITION
MEMBERS:
Hear,
hear.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Does the
House agree?
MR. DIKO : The hon . Mr. Guzana is not
Agreed to .
quarrelling with promotion . He is making a special appeal to the hon. the Minister of
THE
Education to use his discretion in a way
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now
call upon the hon. Minister to reply .
which will not injure the education of the children of the Transkei . Now you know, just as we know, that you have created new
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chaiman and hon . members , the debate on this vote has been such a warm and cordial
posts for the inspectorate above what has been taking place before. You have got about three more than you had before. What is the necessity for that? Your point is that when you replace a European you put an African in
one that it is hardly necessary for me to reply to the points raised. For the first time
his place. Why replace one European and put three Africans in his place? Can't you make it clear and obvious that you are ac-
cism . I am going to forget some of the soapbox orators who went off at a tangent and, in
we found what is to be expected from an Opposition , and that is constructive criti-
fact , did not know whether they were coming or goi ng.
tually dividing the salary of one European among three Africans? When we make these appeals and suggestive criticisms to the Government we are not just making empty
MR. K.M. somewhere .
suggestions. The hon . member for Emigrant Tembuland must be very careful to go even as far as to suggest to the Government that
GUZANA:
They were there
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , but they did not know whether they were coming or going . I shall dwell briefly on some of the matters raised . There was a
anybody who makes a constructive criticism must be put in gaol. (Laughter) That is the very idea that you want to get rid of in this
point on compulsory education to which some of the members replied sufficiently, but I would like to add that in any law, in order that the law should be carried out there must
House. People must speak their minds freely; people must put their suggestions across effectively the way they think they should be
be a backing of that law by way of punitive measures provided. I would like to know
put. So if the hon. Mr. Sihele puts me into prison I must say this thing . (Laughter) I must say this impo rtant thing. In the Cabinet
from those who are protagonists of the imposition of compulsory education as to what punitive measures they would suggest , because for all I know, if the Government took
unfortunately we have empty heads, except for two men. (Laughter) When you deliberate these affairs you more or less mostly depend on the help of the Secretaries, so that is why
it upon itself to impose compulsory education and as a consequence thereof provided punitive measures , some of the most un scru-
we are making suggestions so that you can take them to heart and use them as independent men. You must use your intelligence independently. Now, this thing is Bantu education indirectly , enslaving the African
pulous members of this House across the the floor would go about telling the electorate that this Government is forcing their children to go to school by law and providing punitive measures against them. (Interjections) That is why the section dealing with compulsory education gives the option to the
mentally . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call on the hon. Mr. Rajuili to move his amen dment .
communities to apply for the imposition of compulsory education .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not know when I look
MR. GUZANA: But won't the Government
across there if that empty chair is the de-
provide the
marcation line, and everything on the other
introduction of compulsory education easier at a later stage , rather than fold its hands
side is just rubbish . (Laughter) If you look you will realise that my motion did not state
facilities that
will make the
now?
this time, as it did in the past , that because of the inefficiency of the Minister this or
THE
MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They
that has not been done. There is a big difference there, if you notice, Sir . I remember
are not folding their hands. One of the prerequisites is accommodation, and the Govern-
once when we were young, we were running
ment is busily occupied with that at the
140 .
moment . MR . GUZANA: It is going at the pace of the elephant, that is the trouble .
to a country where the children are never in the street, because you break school off at three o'clock the children must go elsewhere - they must go in the street or they must go
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What-
home. You cannot keep them in the classroom. If they go home at three o'clock when
ever pace it is going at , the position is we
the school breaks up they might as well stay at home in the morning. With regard to the remarks by my hon. friend from Qaukeni , the member of the splinter group, the hon . Mr. Diko, he spoke of dividing the money for one white man amongst three Africans. I would like to advise him if he does not
are busy with the problem at the moment . Passing on to the syllabus , the revised syllabus came as a result of a directive from the Examinations Board and I may advise the members that it is not only the Transkei Education Department which was put to this inconvenience . All the departments in
know, as he seems not to know, that this Government does not pay the White people.
the whole country were put to that in convenience . These were finished at the end of last year , or early this year, with a deadline being put that in 1970 the Matric examina-
MR. DIKO: Nor does it pay Africans.
tions would be conducted according to the new syllabus.
THE
does pay Africans.
MR . GUZANA : I am happy the JMB has done that. That is taking it out of politics.
MR . DIKO: No , where do you get the money? You get it from Pretoria.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I must say I appreciated the remarks that came from
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You get it from us. If you asked for it from Preto-
that political mole across the floor . (Laugh-
ria you would not get it . Now, I want to tell him that there is no question of three Africans being given the salary of a White man . As I said, Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount
ter) I think he is learning well , provided he is not infected with the scab which is prevalent on the side across the floor.
MINISTER
OF EDUCATION:
It
chiefs and hon . members , there is not much MR. GUZANA : We are going to use this extravagant language one of these days and you will not like it .
to be replied to and I have to thank the hon. members for their constructive criticisms as far as the debate is concerned . Some of the matters raised I can assure the members will
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Save
receive the
our souls . (Laughter) With regard to the remarks made by the hon . Chief D.D.P. , who
attention
of the Department .
The sum of R5,554,000 under Vote 3,
got confused between the platoon system and retardation , which is the effect of a person
Department of Education, stand part of the schedule.
trying to use words without understanding their meaning, the platoon system has been invoked in order to prevent retardation . You know that in the past there was a system
was passed to
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
whereby some of the children were kept away from school and put on the waiting list . Now, you know very well that during the time when education was under Bantu Educa-
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. POLICY STATEMENT BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY.
tion the double session was conducted by the same teachers. Now, we must be realistic. The position is that at the present moment we have not got accommodation and the fact
Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the Legislative Assembly:-
that we are trying to solve that problem is not going to let us have accommodation tomorrow or next week, but in the meantime
Last year when I addressed the Assembly, presenting my policy statement in committee of supply, farming conditions on the whole were very unfavourable and depressing. Today the position is completely different. After a very favourable season with the prospect of a very good crop the general outlook is indeed encouraging and the people on the whole are very optimistic of the immediate future . Whilst rejoicing with the people over the good year I cannot emphasize strongly enough that this is just the time that we should prepare ourselves for unfavourable seasons
we must do something to solve the problem . That is why , in order to lessen the burden on the teachers, we do not have the same teachers, teaching the double classes . We have one set of teachers teaching the children in the morning and then another set of teachers in the second part of the day . (Interjections) Someone said at one time that while in the morning you have one set of children, the other set of children are in the streets . In any event I would like to go
141 .
that lie ahead of us . The harder we work
together with other experimental work on crops such as coffee, Pyrethrum, cotton , macadamia nuts , etc. is progressing favourably. The efforts to improve the livestock industry of the Transkei is also starting to show good effects . It may be mentioned that my Department has during the past year for the first time ventured into the field of artificial insemination amongst cattle of Transkei farmers . The co-operation of the people has been disappointing and without their active support little can be achieved. In time to come I expect, however, that the position will improve as the farmers come to realise that they should also expend some effort if they to improve improve their position . The expect to Veterinary branch of my Department has done other very valuable work during the past year . Apart from controlling and preventative steps which are constantly in operation to prevent serious outbreaks
now and the faster we proceed with our conservation measures the less vulnerable we
will be
when
droughts
occur
again .
I stated a few years ago that I consider Agricultural and Forestry development as basic to any future development and progress of the Transkei, and I am pleased to note that more and more people seem to express the same opinion . Not only is it basic to the development of the Transkei but the Transkei is also richly endowed by nature with all the requirements to become a rich agricultural country . But most important of all are the people themselves and I wish to repeat what I said last year, namely, that true and lasting progress is achieved only by the people. My Department can only stimulate , guide and assist the development of these primary industries. Without the participation of the farming population and their own energetic application towards development and improvement progress will remain unsatisfactory.
of stock diseases very important work is being done in investigating various health conditions amongst stock and conducting surveys SO as to enable us to plan the necessary steps to improve the general
Primarily my Department is therefore concerned with the conservation of the natural resources, the stimulation of proto higher levels by improving duction g farmin methods , marketing facilities , the availability of production requirements and the introduction of new and more remunerative variations into the existing farming
health position. This Branch of my Department is effectively switching over to the more positive and modern concept of disease prevention and animal health rather than disease control. During the past year the development of our commercial plantations has continued . In the districts of Tsolo and Umzimkulu the areas under plantations have been increased appreciably and these two areas are already providing good revenue as well as much needed employment. It is my intention to develop this primary industry to a high degree of efficiency because it is , as in the case of agriculture , a natural industry for the Transkei and I believe that first things should come first. Although the expansion of commercial afforestation by the Government may not be unlimited, and the maximum development of Stateowned plantations may be reached in the foresseable future , I firmly believe that further afforestation by the Government on behalf of private people or even on behalf of a people's co-operative, bringing a bout a system of forest settlement as
pattern . As to the conservation of the country's natural resources , I have this year pro. amount increased vided a substantially increased for agricultural planning and development. Encouraging progress is being made with soil reclamation services and it is confidently expected that during the present year even greater co-operation will be forthcoming. Extension work and training will again receive special attention because more knowledge of agriculture is essential if better farming is to be expected. In the sphere of development work much work is being done on the development and conservation of the water supplies . Although a smaller amount is provided for this year than in the previous year, this is mainly because the work done by the Department of Water Affairs is coming to an end and less will have to be paid to that Department. The Department is already considering other irrigation schemes for development but these will be relatively
opposed to agricultural come about in future .
and
boreholes
are
may
The past season has been very favourable for afforestation and much progress was made . Although the rate of affore station is determined largely by certain technical considerations it is nevertheless my intention to afforest as fast as these factors will allow because it is important that the stage should be reached as soon as possible when the plantations will become productive. The amount provided in the estimates of expenditure required for forest development has , therefore , again been increased
small. Dams
settlement
provided
wherever required in the planned areas and it is the intention to improve the water supplies , especially for human beings , as much as possible , with due regard to financial considerations .
slightly this year. In regard to the improvement of produc-
The development of a tea plantation
142 .
tion factors and marketing facilities I may make mention of the Transkei Meat Industry
It is becoming increasingly difficult to cope with all the work and without more staff the development will suffer. The problem can be partly overcome by mechanisation but this may not always be desirable . The expansion of the establishment of my Department can, therefore , not be prevented.
and the Co-operative venture . Since the last sitting of the Assembly the Transkei Meat Scheme has started production . Up till the present the results are most encouraging and it is my firm belief that it will in time to come be a strong stimulating factor in the improvement of livestock production in this territory.
Because of the increase in work especially in regard to soil conservation and irrigation and the processing of forest produce , the amount under Sub-head F also shows a marked increase over last year's figure . Not only are additional items required but a fair proportion of old machines
By now it is also common knowledge that the farmers in Fingoland have established their own co-operative society . It is confidently expected that it will one day have a beneficial effect on the marketing of their produce. Very recently a good indication of future possibilities was given when the Co-operative sold its first consign-
and equipment has to be replaced .
Mr. Chairman I wish to point out that the decreased requirement under Sub-head B · Subsistence and Transport , is mainly due to a reduction of the item " motor
ment of wool at very favourable prices . More important at this stage , however, is the service rendered by the Society in the form of seasonal credit to its members ,
transport" . This matter has caused me concern and I intend keeping expenditure in this connection within reasonable limits .
thereby providing the production factor which is in the shortest supply in the Transkei. Above all I am pleased that we have here a movement by the people wherepositive by they are doing something
In all Mr. Chairman , I submit that the estimated expenditure is essential if a fair rate of progress is to be maintained and I move that Vote V be approved.
themselves . This is really the form of development which is required and consequently I did not find it difficult to persuade the Treasury to render financial assistance to the society in the form of loans and advances . So far an advance on the crop
THE MINISTER WORKS : I second.
OF
ROADS
AND
amounting to more than R33,000 has been made by the Treasury to enable farmers to purchase fertilizer, seed and insecticide . At the same time the Society has been loaned R5000 for Administrative purposes .
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to make a few remarks on the policy speech of the hon . the Minister there entively att are speech. and to of his Agriculture I have listened attentively few points which I wish to criticize . When we discuss
Please allow me , however, to sound a note of warning. There are serious problems in connection with such an undertaking and I do not think that the board of directors of the Fingoland Co-operative Society has overcome the most serious
agriculture we should forget about politics . You have the honour to be the first African Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and you come from the country . You know better than any White person the needs and requirements of the people in the country. It is important that you take into considera-
ones yet. My Department is working in close co-operation with the Society and one of the members of the Department is devoting all his time in assisting and advising the board of directors . At this stage it is beyond the means of my Department to provide the guidance and advice if societies were to be established throughout the Transkei and as the Treasury requires certain conditions to be fulfilled before it will render financial assistance , I do not anticipate the formation of similar societies throughout the Territory all at once . I can only say that my Department will do as much as it can to assist the
tion the requirements of the Bantu people . It seems as if you forget some of the things pertaining to the African people . You forget that you have the honour to be the Minister of Agriculture over a race of Bantu people . One of the chief needs of the African people is to have their own ground. One of the most important things in the past was to have a garden in front of every house . In these gardens the people would grow vegetables . You may think that what I am saying is surprising . Perhaps some of the people in this House have got past that stage . It may be that the Whites who are present have also got past that stage , but if I concentrated on talking to the White people in this House my words would be wasted because the White people always want something growing in front of their houses . When you see that this is lacking among our people , why not preach it ? I would not expect every house to have a beatiful garden, but some effort should be made . We wish to see that and we are aware that
people. Perhaps the most significant figure in the estimates of expenditure which I am asking the house to approve , is the one under subhead A, Salaries , wages and allowances . Although a good proportion of the increased estimate is due to improved salary scales , the largest proportion is required for additional staff.
143 .
some steps have been taken . The gardens are most important because it is where we grow the necessary vegetables . You speak every day here about the growing of tea, coffee , sugar, etc. , and yet this is suitable for certain portions of the Transkei only those areas towards the sea. What about
greatly in the Transkei in bringing in revenue . You remarked in connection with irrigation that small schemes would be undertaken. We are grateful for that because what is taking place in Qamata is insufficient for the needs of the people. These irrigation dams should be built all over so that people can grow green vegetables throughout the Transkei . We also appreciate the steps taken by the co-operative society and we hope it will give assistance to the people . The people have to consider with great care the money that has been lent and
the parts that are far from the sea? The importance of tea is not greater than that of the carrot. Tea is just a drink to refresh , whereas carrots and spinach are necessary foods for the body. By speaking in this manner I am not opposing the idea of growing tea. Tea-growing is useful in bringing more money, but the important thing is for the people to grow things which are good for them. You said you encourage the Bantu people to have small gardens and grow tea. How do you expect a person to grow tea when he cannot grow vegetables? These things are a necessity because they are required every day. Did you not see the necessity for these as you went round the Transkei ? I do not care which direction you take , you will find that the need is
it should not be regarded as something gratis . First of all the people must be taught how to go about things so that the results are good . I think I have said all I wanted to say on this subject.
MR.
J.M.
SINEKE : Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , I rise to support the policy statement by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I had occasion to confer with the Chief Whip of the Opposition side with a view to selecting members who know something about agriculture to speak on this vote , and I now realise that my request to the hon. member was heeded. I will now reply to the remarks of the hon. member. He suggests that the hon. Minister should
there . This week the fields are beginning to wither. That shows that our people will not see anything green for some time. Did you not see women going about in the fields looking for something green? Have you not noticed when you go by car and stop some-
see to it that people have vegetable gardens . I wonder whether the hon. member has
where , as soon as you leave small children come and pick up the orange peels you have left. Why do they do that? It is because they are hungry. It is because their blood needs those things. Why is it that each house should have a lemon tree? You think I have tried to accuse you and yet I am
forgotten that he himself was an agricultural demonstrator and trained people in this respect? Neither the Government nor the Minister concerned is expected to go from house to house endeavouring to get fencing material for people . On the other hand I appreciate his words of encouragement to the Minister. As I indicated, we really want people to talk on this matter who have a
trying to ask you to influence the whole of the Transkei because this is very important. You have heard from the doctors that out of every ten children eight will die . They will not die because they have not sufficient food , but because they have'nt got what is supplied by that lemon tree. Have you not seen our wives shrinking when they feed their children? All this shows that there is a shortage of something in their blood. This shortage is because they were not told to plant gardens . In your speech you tell us that the Transkei is a rich country. It is easy to make a person have this garden and it is very cheap . One does not need much money or seed. Fifty
knowledge of agriculture. It is our hope that debate on this vote will not be long as
intelligence
needs
intelligent people.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: talking then? (Laughter)
Why
are you
MR. SINEKE : I hope the members who will speak on the Opposition side are members with intelligence . OPPOSITION
cents worth of seed is enough to plant the whole garden . The tools required are a
MEMBER:
Sit
down.
MR. SINEKE: All matters of development have been mentioned by the hon . Minister. He also mentioned an estimated expenditure of R33,000 which will go towards the purchase of fertiliser. The hon. member who has just sat down was correct in complimenting the Minister and I support him in that regard. I will ask the unscrupulous members of the Opposition not to take part in this discussion which is of national
spade, a rake and a fork. Don't you think you would have done something great for the Transkei if you were to teach these people to have these gardens ? As I have said , it is cheap and easy. Here are the people whose voices agree with yours. Why don't you try and inspire them so that this thing becomes possible? As you have taught them to plant tea in their gardens , why not teach them to plant vegetables? One day the people of the Transkei will learn to eat
concern. Mention was made of irrigation schemes . We should not discuss the dam which gives nightmares to some people. No dam can ever be constructed without rehabilitation because as soon as we
greens , and all that is in your power. I wish to praise you for your efforts in regard to forestry and such things as the planting of phormium tenax. Those things assist
mention construction of any dam they will come back to the old song of rehabilitation .
144 .
(Interjections) I will resume my seat because my hon. friends from the Dalindyebo region are already looking at me with
are you responsible to the people living in rehabilitated areas only and not to the rest of the Transkei? Are the people in the non-rehabilitated areas not taxpayers as
critical eyes because they think I am going to advocate rehabilitation . I am not going rehabilitation, however, to talk about because the seeds of rehabilitation have already been sown might be stopped.
well ? If you are a good Minister you will attend to the needs of all the people without picking and choosing. My hon. friend here said the dam will be fenced in . There are many open dams that were built by the Bunga.
and their germination
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , referring to the policy speech of the hon. Minister I will refer to page 8 . The Minister wishes the estimate to be increased So that he can employ more labour.
This
is
something I
MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy speech made by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. I want to assure him that his Department is one of the departments which works for the good of the people of the Transkei . Although it may be said even if a man is good, there are certain faults in him , we thank you very much for soil conservation. In spite of the fact that there are some contours in the lands , efforts should be made to prevent water running in full force from the mountains . The exam-
would like
to point out with regard to the wages . Is it possible that a person can subsist on 50 cents per day? In drawing the wages we often start with the minimum wage , because you consider the needs of the person who is going to receive that wage and whether he will be able to subsist on that amount. I direct a question to the hon . Minister : Is it possible for a man to subsist on 50 cents a day? (Interjections ) I will remind you of the Bunga. The Bunga wage was 25 cents a day. The Bunga had no revenue . It was under the direction of the magistrate. Its income was very small. This is supposed to be a Govemment of the Bantu people , a Government which has funds coming to it from the central Government. I say this directly to you , Sir. You receive as your stipend R4,000 per annum · an amount which you never received as a member of the
ple made in Fingoland has showed people the right way. I want to tell the hon . member who has just spoken that this hybrid seed is good . All I can say is that this year the failure is the result of the heavy rains . We have seen how this seed grows in the Kaffircorn fields . One thing we appreciate is the meat scheme which has resulted in higher prices for cattle than the people got before at the stock sales . This has helped us against the traders because in the past they used to buy our cattle and give us low prices in exchange . We also appreciate the erection of windmills , and we wish to ask through your Department that the officials responsible for erecting these windmills should try and expedite matters in this respect because the people need water badly. We praise the work done by your Department. In regard to artificial
Bunga. That means you are able therefore to take out what is due to you . With these remarks I appeal to you to consider the lowest wage which would be sufficient for a family to live on. Even alone you should be able to draw up a scale of wages where the people would be able to subsist. The labourers in these plantations come together and buy one bag of mealie-meal among them and by that means they are trying to put together their resources and to cook one big pot of mealie-meal among them. Every day their meal consists of this pap . How do you think people can live healthily on this food? On page 7 again , referring to the amount which you have set aside for the purchase of seed and fertiliser, you have told us on several occassions that we should
insemination you remarked in your speech that the response has been disappointing, but we ask your Department to persevere and to approach other areas in the Transkei . MR. L.A. hon. members , small point in sistence and
LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and I would like to refer to one regard to sub-head B , SubTransport. There are some people who do not get sufficient subsistence allowance. The people who look after the forests sometimes have to travel 25 to 28
buy hybrid seed for our arable allotments . We took that advice to heart and you your-
miles from one place to another. You find that sometimes such a person has to live at a place far from his home for two , three or four days , carrying out the duties he has to perform . There is no subsistence paid to this particular employee when he is carrying out such duties . Further, the people who work in these plantations help to bring in revenue and you find that the way in which they live whilst in employment is not very satisfactory because they live in their homes far from the plantation areas in which they work, whereas you have another department in this Government, the Roads and Works Department , which employs
self today express a hope that the harvest will be very good. I tell you as I stand here the crop this year will be very poor. The mealies will be rotten and it is only fit to feed to pigs . I advise you , Mr. Minister, not to spend any more money on this type of seed, the seed that gets rotten. To pass on to another aspect, on page 3 reference was made to dams and boreholes where you state that you will have dams in the planned areas . Let us now turn to the Bunga records which you are so fond of referring to . The Bunga did not pick only on those people who had accepted rehabilitation. They built dams and reservoirs in all areas . May I put the question to you -
people 145.
and provides
places
for them to
live in next to the roads on which they are working. Further, that Department employs cooks for the labourers . Is it not advisable
Only last year in the Gcaleka region a woman gave birth to triplets. Even today children are still being born but I have not heard that there has been any additional land. I want to suggest that even if Mount Currie district were added to this area the land would be filled in no time and there
for your Department to follow some plan of that nature? In many places the labourers in your plantations live six to seven miles away from their working centre and they are required to report for work at 7 o'clock in the morning and they leave work late in the evening at sunset to travel the long distance home . These are the points we
would still be landless people. What you should do is to co-operate with the Department to devise ways and means of feeding the increasing population. I see one defect in the present set-up, where an old resident has five to eight lands as against one taxpayer who has a family and one land or no land at all . These are the results of rehabilitation · in the rehabilitated areas it remains one man, one land and the spare lands will be distributed among the landless . We are opposed to rehabilitation measures but they will assist our youth to have stock and that is why I bring up the question .
feel the Department must take note of. First of all these labourers carry their meals for the day with them because no meals are provided for them at their work point. They eat this food late in the day when it is already cold. How can these people carry on the work they are required to do when they eat food that is not nourishing and they have to walk these long distances between their homes and work? Sometimes the weather is wet and then the people arrive wet. Would it not be advisable for the Department to put up tents for these people close to the work points so that they can avoid being cold in winter, and they will be healthy and carry out their work satisfactorily ? Here is a matter which I should like the hon . Minister to take note of. There is a menace on the lands close
MR. A. RAZIYA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to refer to the hon. Minister's policy speech . In the Transkei when we talk about developing the Transkei we want to speak about something tangible and not merely theoretical . Although we have already advanced quite far we would like the Department to provide tractors , because we have no trek oxen . The hon .
to these plantations , for people whose lands are close to these plantations find a great deal of damage caused by monkeys and baboons . In areas such as Port St.
Minister will probably have noticed as he moves about the Transkei that stock has been very much reduced and therefore
John's and Konjwayo land where my chief comes from it is very bad and I thought they would raise this point. The womenfolk leave their homes early in the morning to drive the monkeys away from their homes .
people have no trek oxen to use for their agricultural operations . Would his Department therefore provide ways and means to assist agriculture in these drought- stricken areas. The storekeepers who previously assisted people with their agricultural operations are not allowed to extend that help now and in some areas the BIC has bought over the trading stations from them.
MR. Z. CHEMANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I am disappointed , however, at the amendment by the hon. member who I thought had knowledge of
Would his Department therefore provide tractors for the nine regions of the Transkei to help the people plough their lands. When the rains come you will find that the people cannot all plough their lands at the same time and if there is a man who possesses
agriculture.
MR.
K.M.
GUZANA:
There
was
no
amendment.
a tractor in any area then he puts up the charges for ploughing the lands for the people to about R10 an acre. I hope the hon. Minister will note that the people are poor and they have no means of ploughing their lands . I would like the Minister to
MR . CHEMANE : He has not indicated how he proposes that the Government should start these vegetable gardens , bearing in mind the fact that he himself was an agricultural demonstrator . However, I am prepared to concede that this matter is very important and should be taken out of party politics . In supporting the suggestion that this matter should be taken out of party politics I am going to mention what is odious to you . The wise chiefs of the Nyanda region decided to accept rehabilitation . The hon. member mentioned the emaciated womenfolk but he failed to comment on the benefits of the milk cows . He therefore failed to complete what he should have said · that when we come here it should be to educate our children, because people should be taught what is to be done seeing that the land is not increasing whilst the population is increasing.
note that in the higher regions people use tractors for ploughing their lands and you know that if people buy stock from one area those animals are not permitted to enter any other area. Sometimes you are asked to to buy these beasts from auctioneers who will sell the beasts to you at very high profit . We would advise the hon. Minister to try and help the people by providing means so that the people can plough their lands.
CHIEF M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in supporting the policy speech I want to say that the hon . the Minister of Agriculture has not gone astray 146 .
is beyond the means of my Department to provide the guidance and advice if societies to be established throughout the were Transkei and as the Treasury requires certain conditions to be fulfilled .... " What conditions are to be fulfilled by your Treasury So as to help people in connection
in regard to his policy . As far as this matter is concerned I am short of words . (Laughter) MR . J. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to make a few comments in regard to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . Once upon a time a jackal advised the animals who wanted to build a dam, and the jackal asked whether the tortoise and other small animals would be allowed to drink from the dam. When he was told they would also go he said: Well , I will not drink that water. But when thirst came upon him the jackal went to drink from the dam. I likewise want to go and drink the water that has been provided by the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . First of all, may I remind him of the promises he made last year with regard to acquiring stock. He made it clear that anybody could acquire stock from anywhere , even in the Ciskei , and bring it to the Transkei , but we discovered afterwards that he sent a circular to the offices where we have to get permits , refuting the promise he had made . He stipulated that if two of your stock have died you can only replace those two . Unfortunately there are young men who have no stock to inherit
with finance? We suspect that what you mean is rehabilitation . It has been pointed out to you that all the taxpayers of the Transkei belong to your Department and they pay taxes , part of which go to your Department. May we remind you further that last year you promised to help in curing stock of disease and you have failed. P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I would like to say a few words regarding what was said in this House this afternoon. In other words , I am supporting the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . The hon. Mr. Jafta spoke about gardens being put in front of the houses . They have repeatedly said this , but I do not know where it started . This has been said by the agricultural demonstrators and the Zenzele members have got gardens . Everyone who is wise has a garden. I cannot understand what the hon . member is criticizing because everything is in order in the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . The hon . member who used to be up in front, Mr. Busakwe, is criticizing this seed and within a year he is criticizing and saying it should be stopped. I disagree with him. It should be cultivated again until success is attained, until we know the climatic conditions that are suitable . These people have said these things and unfortunately you have not stopped them. You have never been to school to learn about agriculture. Agriculture has done a great deal and many people have benefited . They have made dams and people have bought tractors , although I believe it is difficult to get them . But we get them at Qaukeni. I don't know why you don't get them .
from their parents , and that means that they have no stock on hand and they have to acquire stock for themselves . On that account therefore they cannot buy stock to replace any because they have had no stock before and we therefore ask how are they going to marry , because according to custom they must pay "lobola" for their wives . It does not matter whether it is a European lady or a Bantu , " lobola" must be paid for her. We would like the hon. Minister to note this particularly and not to make promises and then follow it up with circulars that refute them. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , here is another point I would like to mention . We have agricultural demonstrators in these outlying areas . In one of the offices I happened to see one of the pay sheets in the hands of these officers . Several of these agricultural demonstrators receive R21 and some few cents a month , and even the people in charge of the forests receive this sum . Although they are agricultural demonstrators they are referred to as semi-skilled labourers. (Interjections) This is the difficulty : The coat I am wearing now is worth R21 and that means that the agricultural demonstrator would have to go without a pair of trousers . In his speech the hon. Minister referred to a possible rise in the wages , but at the same time he proposes to increase the number of labourers . The agricultural demonstrators who were employed by the Bunga received a higher wage than the wage paid to your labourers today. Your high salary has enabled you to buy a nice high hat similar to that of Mr. Churchill, (Laughter) as though you would speak some sense as Churchill spoke . Let us turn to page 7 of the policy speech where the hon . Minister says : "At this stage it
MR . K.M. GUZANA: It is because the Minister of Agriculture comes from Qaukeni . (Laughter) P/CHIEF SIGCAU : He looks after the whole Transkei . He has to abide by his work. You would be like that if you were a Cabinet Minister. You have heard that the forests have been increased and we shall get nice furniture and you will be buried in beautiful coffins when you die. (Laughter) Great work is being done at Lambasi now and we shall have plenty of tea at home . That tea will be called Botha Sigcau tea. (Laughter) I was only joking, but we shall find a name for this tea. Everything is beautiful. You will forget about thumping on the table showing that you don't agree . I wish to point out that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is doing very well . The agricultural side and the forestry side are doing well. When there
147 .
are more forests we will get more rain and that will be encouraging . You people all criticize the good things because you are jealous. You must stop it. You are wasting time by being jealous and you are wasting the taxpayers ' money. You must just discuss the situation .
areas which have no water supplies whatsoever and people have to depend either on stagnant pools or other means to get water. I am sorry the hon . the Chief Minister is not here because he made promises during the by-election campaign at Ngamakwe that he would see to it that we had adequate water supplies . He promised to get us taps in all the localities . I think these were
The debate was adjourned .
just catch-wards to get votes . Apart from that we were promised kiss-gates or small gates in the fences but even up to this day our womenfolk have to climb shaky steps to cross the fences . The hon. Minister should please see to it that those areas
House Resumed
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 11th May, 1967.
which have been rehabilitated are properly catered for so as to attract those people
THURSDAY, 11TH MAY, 1967.
The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
who will not accept rehabilitation . It is useless trying to force people to accept rehabilitation under conditions which are not attractive. I think weighing disadvantage against advantage you have a lot to make up in the rehabilitated areas . In your speech you have made no mention of what stock
a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
improvements you have embarked upon . What we have experienced is that you cull our bulls in the rehabilitated areas and there are no replacements by better breeds. Extension officers in our districts · that is, the rehabilitated districts · have given us information that there are facilities for exchanging scrub or old bulls for better
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Mr.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman and hon. members , I move
that the supply.
House
goes
into
committee
of
quality animals, but in your speech you have made no mention of that. How are people expected to know this? I think, Mr. Chairman , that the Ministers should see to
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE: I second, Mr. Chairman.
it that their policy speeches have a bearing upon facts that affect the daily lives of our people. For instance, I think mention of the Transkei meat scheme has been rather superfluous because you did not mention the number of cattle that were bought and the prices, and also what was sold and what profits accrued. Coming to the forestry section, you have mentioned an increase in the estimates with a view to increasing your staff, but you have made no mention
Agreed to House in Committee
The debate on Vote 5, Agriculture and Forestry, was resumed. MR . L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I just want to make a few observations on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry .
of whatever improvements , if any at all, in the living and accommodation conditions of these people have been made. You must not only increase the staff, but you must improve the conditions .
He has spoken on water development and conservation , but it does appear he is only confining himself to those areas which have accepted rehabilitation. However , even in those places which are said to be completely rehabilitated he does not show there have been steps to preserve or to make it possible to conserve water. I think last year I made several observations in regard to the Nqamakwe district which is completely rehabilitated. For instance , in one ward there are no dams whatsoever and people have to travel a distance of a mile to get water from the Tsomo district, and the Nomaheya location in Dudumashe's ward the drinking water facilities are very poor. There is of course a windmill to which
CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , he who is on his feet at this moment is a Basuto child and he must sing a Sesuto song . I stand here to support the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . I stand to support every point of his speech in full , beginning with the wages . The first speaker on the Opposition side referred to home gardens . In his remarks I did not find anything to disprove the hon. statement, or which showed Minister's
people have to travel a distance of over a mile . In the same location there are three camps that have no dams whatsoever. Where there are no drinking water facilities you know what the result is . This is but a
faults in the administration of the Agricultural Department. It was only apparent that those remarks have been constantly made among the inhabitants of the Transkei from the time when he himself was an
handful of examples I have given because there are a number of other rehabilitated
agricultural demonstrator, and it appears that this will be repeated time and again
148.
tion to this point because we want wattle trees. The last speaker mentioned the
as long as we are alive , in the same way as the alphabet from A to Z is still being taught in the schools and will continue to be taught as long as human beings are alive. Further, Mr. Chairman , one speaker said it was desirable to keep agriculture out of the political arena. I truly agree that was very well said because agriculture and forestry are the basis of life for the
furniture being made at Vulindlela. We are grateful to learn that furniture is being made here in tthe Transkei , but we have a complaint about the type of tree that is used in this furniture-making. Pine trees are used and the furniture that is made out of pine does not last long. Also , they are making school desks . The hon. Minister should look for a good tree for making furniture . We now come to the grazing camps .
people of the Transkei . Proof of what I say is what is being done in the furniture factory at Vulindlela . This factory and its products have never been experienced in the Transkei before .
It so happens that in the villages there are four grazing camps for each village , and there is a regulation which says one camp should be closed for the whole year and
MR . C. DIKO : We have always had desks and chairs. What are you talking about?
the other three camps are used by the cattle for two weeks at a time . I would like the hon. Minister to know that it is a good idea where there are four camps , but where there are less than four that system does not work. I wish to ask that the grazing of these cattle should be left entirely to the people of that particular village because they know when to allow grazing in different camps at different times. He will understand that when there are three camps and one is closed the rotation is difficult with two camps only.
CHIEF MOSHESH: Mr. Chairman , what I say is noted by all the people who live in the Transkei , except those who deliberately make themselves blind to facts . Yesterday we heard from the hon . Mr. Luwaca something which surprised the whole House. Instead of talking and addressing this House he laid monkeys and baboons on the table , and as witness he called upon his chief of the Konjwayos . (Laughter) We waited in vain for a critical analysis of the address of the Minister of Agriculture . That being so, hon. member, it appears we shall ask the hon. Minister to go and drive away birds from our cornfields.
MR. W.Z. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make a few references to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . Because we happen not to have accepted rehabilitation it appears that the Minister has a biassed attitude
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to put right the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . The hon . Minister had a loan of machinery used for artificial insemination from the Republican Government and he forgot to do his other work, but he went round inseminating cows and he did not count how many of these cows had been inseminated . (Laugh-
towards us . He does not respond when we invite him to pay visits to our areas . (Interjections) We do not even have a sufficient number of agricultural demonstrators. If we make application for the sinking of boreholes we usually get the reply that we have refused rehabilitation in Our area. Would the hon . Minister take note that he is not only the Minister of those areas which have accepted rehabilitation, but the Minister
ter) The question of water supplies is most
of the whole of the Transkei . The people who have not accepted rehabilitation nevertheless are people who belong to his department. At the time of the Bunga we usually had dams erected for us.
important. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, the question of water supplies has already been fully discussed .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I wish to talk on reservoirs . The way these reservoirs are constructed is very bad. After they have been erected they are not covered over and that results in boys throwing old shoes and other things into the water and thieves take skins and throw them into the water. That results in the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon . member, those points have already been mentioned.
water becoming polluted. Coming to forestry, forests are a good thing in a location because they assist a great deal in the erection of buildings and in providing firewood. We have a complaint in our area that the most important tree grown is the gum tree . Even the wattle trees are re-
anything. We would like to have agricultural organisations in our area, even though we have not accepted rehabilitation . We also like to have ways and means of ordering fertilisers and we like to have advice from the agricultural demonstrators . Would he please note that as Minister we all look up to him for these services.
MR. LUFEFENI : If we , as taxpayers , invite the hon. Minister to come to our area, will he please note that he ought to come and not ask us whether we have done
placed by gum trees . This hinders the people a great deal because the result is that people cannot make fires because they cannot use gum trees for firewood. I would
MR. E. PINYANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not going to say much on this matter because the members on the
ask the hon . Minister to pay special atten-
149 .
opposite side are also supporting the Minister. I do not see any reason why we should again repeat ourselves .
and even the Republican Prime Minister, that if the Transkei should concentrate on agriculture , it would succeed in standing on its feet. It also says in this book on the Transkei which I have , that everything should be tried to get agriculture to uplift the Transkei . In his speech we did not hear about local markets or what has been done about the central show, all of which help to promote agriculture . We did not hear in the hon . Minister's speech whether there is a committee on vegetation or a committee to decide what forests are suit-
MR. C.S. MDA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who is speaking just now is deputy for the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland , and the Paramount Chief took part in this same debate yesterday. I wonder therefore if he is also qualified to take part in the presence of the Paramount Chief. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Para-
able for this country. I will leave that point because I can see you are about to weep . (Laughter) Let us come to the question of extension work. There is only one school in the Transkei and the number of children trained is very small . There are not enough to cover the whole of the Transkei. (Interjections) We have asked before that the numbers should be increased. I have noticed that there is forestry in the Transkei but there is no school to train our children
mount Chief can speak not more than three times . He has spoken once and his deputy can speak for the second time on his behalf.
MR. PINYANA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I am glad the hon . member of the Opposition has showed this House that he is against the chiefs . (Interjections) They go on barking but I will not reply. I do not see any reason why we should repeat ourselves , because everybody supports the policy speech of the hon . Minister. Even what he said about artificial insemination
how to manage the forests . Further, there are veterinary officers , but there is no school to train children in veterinary science. I have noticed that in the forestry and veterinary sections the only people with knowledge are the Europeans . It appears that there is job reservation for the Whites
of cows is a good thing because the cows do not always get inseminated by bulls . Referring to the remark made about pine trees , we have always had pine trees in this country. We plant those trees in order to use them. Whoever wants to plant other trees can place his own order and he can plant the trees he wants , but we shall continue in the way we are doing. There is a chapter in the Bible which says " Thou shalt not remain in the place of your critics ." You have a great critic across the floor. (Interjections) Hon . members , I do not wish to repcat myself. All I say is that the work done by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is commendable . We give praise to you, hon. Minister.
in this respect . If there had not been he would have been building these schools. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not generally speak on this vote, but because of the high-sounding phrases and anticipations that lack any facts I wonder why this has been brought here . On page 1 , a few sentences there , the hon . Minister speaks about farming conditions on the whole being very favourable and unfavourable and depressing, then he goes on rejoicing with the people over the good year. How has the year been good? What has been the produce for this year? What benefit has come to the people in order to say that the year has been good? He talks of immediate futures . He is very optimistic about the immediate future.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the people who say that the vote we are now discussing should be done away with should note that we live on agriculture. I think we should go into details on this vote. The other policy speeches have had headings , but in his speech we notice that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture says this and that without any headings . He should have had heading s about conservation, development, extension work, forestry, etc. He did not do that, but had everything mixed up. In his speech he did not tell us whether the developments he mentioned in his speech last year have been carried out. He has failed to indicate
What is the immediate future ? The hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei has always referred this House among other things, to the many good rivers and supply of water that is flowing throughout the Transkei . This speech makes no reference to show attempts at hamessing that water to improve agriculture in the Transkei . (Interjections) I begin to realise it is true that the hon. Minister is swollen-headed. It looks as if once in a while he has forgotten to talk about Qamata irrigation scheme because we have convinced him
in his speech whether there are any boards which have been set up, such as a meat industry board or any others . Unlike the Republican Government he did not have
that that was done by the Republican Govemment. What is this department doing to provide against drought? He talks about stimulation and guidance and assistance but there is nothing stimulating in this . There are no agricultural incentives in this speech. I think the former Minister of Education will appreciate this , if he has ever corrected any good essays , because in this
these boards to make a report to him as to how the various sections have fared . It appears he is doing all this by himself, or the Whites are doing it for him. When shall we learn to run these things for ourselves? It has been said by many speakers ,
150.
speech there is not one fact but only highsounding phraseology which does not mean anything. I do not know if these are paragraphs or pages , but take page 3 and paragraph 3 as being one and the same thing. The hon . Minister says there : " As to the conservation of the country's natural re-
1964 was so many thousand bags and he should say that that year so many bales of wool came from the Transkei . His policy speech, however, is just a general statement which does not give any statistical information relating to the Transkei agricultural activities . Would he accept it then if I maintain that agriculture is not a paying concem in the Transkei ? How does it not pay? In the Republic farmers get a subsidy The Republican the Government . from
sources , I have this year provided a substantially increased amount for agricultural planning and development ." What are they? Then further on you get: "Encouraging progress is being made with soil reclamation services and it is confidently expected that during the present year even greater
Government complains that the younger people are not taking an interest in agricultural activities . It is because they have noticed that agriculture does not pay sufficiently . Proof is that labour is poorly paid by European farmers . If agriculture brought in a substantial income the labourers would be getting decent wages .
co-operation will be forthcoming." You get all these high-sounding phraseologies that contain no facts . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And it becomes too high and lofty for you.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : How much do you pay the workers in your store?
MR. RAJUILI : Well , you get some high and lofty clouds without rain sometimes . The hon. Minister goes on to say that a
MR.
NOTA: Our Transkei Government
makes it quite clear, Mr. Chairman , that agriculture is not a paying concern. The fact that this Government has not got any
smaller amount has been provided for development of water supplies this year, and that small schemes will be carried out. What is a small amount? How many gallons?
agricultural training colleges is proof that the Government is aware that agriculture is not a paying proposition . During the days of the Bunga we had three agricultural colleges . Today we have only one . Mr. Chairman, in this very important department we note that the labourers in their employ are constantly complaining of the low wages they receive. Is that not proof that agriculture does not pay, because they cannot find enough money to pay their labourers well? Mr. Chairman , I should
On this aspect of artificial insemination I do not like to dwell, but I would like to make a comparison in the days of the Bunga when our stock was said to be scrub and we were told to buy Afrikander bulls which looked so good, but they did not serve the cows. You were told by the hon . Minister that this plan is raising no co-operation among the people of the Transkei . That is what he said. The people of the Transkei are no fools. They have been bluffed by many a Government before you. Their bulls have been culled against their wishes and these Afrikander bulls were brought and they could not serve the cattle for more than two years . They have not seen this artificial insemination done anywhere , not even on the neighbouring farms , and now you come with some machine which they do not understand . We will help you make the people understand but if you just do it without explaining you will not get any co-operation .
think that pastoral farming is better than agricultural farming for we learn in the history of this land that the cause of many wars between White and Black was due to cattle. That is proof therefore that pastoral farming would pay better. The hon . Minister does not wish to encourage the people to own stock. What is the reason that in the rehabilitated areas where you have camps and grazing paddocks the people are required to pay for the grazing of their stock in those areas ? Is this an attempt to make stock-rearing a thing only for those people who are already wealthy ? Is that fact that you do not want stock to come into the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon . Mr. K.G. Nota to move his amendment.
Transkei proof that you want people to progress agriculturally? Will the hon . MinisMR . K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the amendment which reads thus :-
ter please note that large numbers of people in the Transkei are poor and that means that poor people want quick returns for whatever they are doing. If the Government embarks on experiments that will take five years , when will the people of the Transkei
"That Vote 5 be reduced by a sum of R3,200 in respect of the Minister's salary."
benefit from those experiments? Chairman, I accept the fact that agriculture is a very important department, as is evidenced by the fact that this vote is the second biggest. However, the hon . Minister's policy speech does not give us any tangible facts , particularly with reference to agriculture. We expected the Minister to tell this House what the harvest Mr.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second the amendment. MR. E.G.
SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , I stand here to oppose the last speaker in his amendment that the salary of the Minister be reduced. I listened attentively yesterday to the way the
has been for the past year. He could, for example , have said that the harvest in
151 .
Opposition members were making suggestions as to how agriculture should be
without first going to the agricultural demonstrators . If the demonstrators assess
managed, and also to the suggestion that was made yesterday that where agriculture is concerned we should join hands and work together. On our side too , if we see something wrong we have to speak and put it right for the sake of the nation , but I disagree that when a man has done something he is told he has done nothing. The question is : What steps has he taken? I am an agriculturist and I know for a fact that the Transkei has never before reached the standard it has now attained . I have
the grazing and there is enough grazing you will get a permit. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is indeed to be regretted that these policy statements glaringly show that they are not the work of our Ministers . It is not in my line to insult anybody , but where a Minister has shown in his policy statement that he is a mere cypher in his department we cannot help but mention it. It is so highly academic really , that if we put questions to him he will not be able to answer them. I refer, Sir, to things like artificial insemination . I am sorry it has already been mentioned.
been to Ngamakwe and Butterworth .
MR. C. DIKO: How is that the Minister's influence ? Show us. MR . SIHELE : Don't disturb me . I can see from the way they were doing things in the places I mentioned that the Transkei
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall not accept it if you are going to repeat things .
should progress well . One of the speakers disappointed me yesterday when he said
MR. ZIBI: I will bring in a new aspect. However good artificial insemination may be, but the product of this artificial insemi-
he has nothing to say about the growing of mealies, whereas in Butterworth one can see clearly that the quality of mealies grown there is very good. That is the result of the manure that has been used. Instead
nation may not breed further than one stage, and in my own calculation it is an insidious method of introducing culling of stock and yet, hon. members of the House, in view of the severe regulations of influx control Africans in the Transkei have resorted to agriculture as their main livelihood. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What has agriculture got to do with influx control? You talk a lot of nonsense · agriculture and influx control !
of criticizing we should stand together to see that more fertilizer is sent to the people . I wish to ask that the fertilizer being sent to people should not be so high in price and that it should be obtained when the Bantu himself buys the fertilizer where it is found, so that when that fertilizer is distributed by the Government trucks to the places where it is needed .... (Interjections)
THE please .
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
MR . ZIBI : I am making a few suggestions . All we are told is , as I say , an excuse by the Department of Agriculture. Let us say, for example , you know when you did away with that old system of sowing by broadcasting, it was only a question of one enlightened kraal buying a planter and doing the planting and the rest of the people, because of the production, followed suit. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And influx control and farming?
Order,
MR. SIHELE : Instead of pointing out the facts I have just observed , the Opposition members are just criticizing and throwing stones . Why can't they see that things are done in the right way instead of running about criticizing? Let me come to the
MR . ZIBI : In the same way, let me mention for a minute that according to the policy of separate development, it means that the African people have got to tenaciously hold to their customs and traditions and it is their tradition to lend each other
question of pastoral farming . You must remember that pastoral farming goes parallel with agriculture . The hon. member cannot criticize the agricultural side and go to the pastoral side because pastoral farming depends on the agricultural side , because the cattle have to be fed . Coming to the question of cattle farming outside the Transkei , it seems as if what has been said by the hon . the Chief Minister is not understood. The hon. the Chief Minister says
bulls . Why introduce such a highly scientific practice as artificial insemination ? Now, with the rehabilitated areas we would have expected that they would now be in a position to attract those people who are not yet in those areas , but unfortunately the very people already living like baboons in a zoological garden are raising a hue and cry because of the conditions in those areas .
that one can buy a beast from anywhere one wishes to. (Interjections) He says that the beast should come with its permit and it should be inoculated as well. The first thing is to approach the Agricultural Department before you go and buy this beast. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is you agitators who go and preach against rehabilitation,
MR. DIKO: Is the permit ever granted? MR. ZIBI: You have got to show us by results . All this Minister of Agriculture has succeeded in doing this year is to make
MR. SIHELE : I know permits have been obtained by many. You cannot get through
152.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: I don't choose the speakers . What is the matter with you?
Africans veritable baboons by fencing them in and after they have been fenced in nothing is done for them. There are not the windmills ; there are not the schools ; there are not the clinics that were promised them. I mean , nobody would oppose rehabilitation of anything , if it be rehabilitation indeed. What is the position today though? The Ministers are not even worried to see the conditions in the different regions , and to see the difficulties in the respective regions and to help the people overcome their difficulties. There was a
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Or, rather, by the Whip . There is one thing that we have to learn from nature · that you cannot obstruct a current of water. We used to try and do it when we were boys after a heavy storm · put obstructions in the way, but the water would overflow. I refer now to the attitude of some of the Opposition members whose idea is to oppose anything constructive that the Government is doing. Well , so much for that. Now I will try to expatiate on some of the points raised by the hon. members , and those that I do not refer to you should not regret, because I spare you the sting that would otherwise sting you . The first official speaker on the other side , the hon. Mr. Jafta, seemed to be obsessed by the extent of malnutrition in these areas and he blamed the Government
lot of snow in the Maluti region last year. What was done? (Interjections) Nothing was done after we had been promised that some Government trucks would go and assist the people at these snowbound places . He should worry about the improvement of mealies , worry African cattle .
about the
improvement of
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you know about it? You live in Johannesburg.
for that. There will always be malnutrition when people do not follow scientific methods of cooking, but for an hon. member to suggest that the Minister should go and do spade-
MR . ZIBI : You are not worrying about it, according to this policy here.
work for all the people in the administrative area is absurd. You are just like spoiled children who always complain that they should be given this and that. All the officers of the Department from time immemorial have been preaching a lot about malnutrition and the growing of vegetables ,
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Let the farmers talk about it · not a man from the towns. MR. ZIBI : I am a farmer, if you want to know . Now that would be one way of eliminating the scrub cattle that they have always complained about in the African cattle , and I am convinced that everything has been said on this side of the House to assist the hon . Minister . All the constructive criticism has been on this side of the House.
(Interjections) but the people do not follow. Well , what can the Department do? You can take a horse to the river to drink but you cannot make him drink . MR . C.S. MDA: And you can take a man and make him a minister, but you can never make him sensible . (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now close the debate on this vote , and when we come back I shall ask the hon.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We give you all the opportunities and you don't take advantage of them . Well , he spoke of tea gardens . I don't know whether
Minister concerned to reply .
AFTERNOON SESSION. The Assembly resumed
it was he who spoke of tea gardens and cotton planting , which we are contemplating , saying we are concentrating in Eastern Pondoland where the Minister comes from . That is doubly absurd and it is suggesting what I think some of you in your cotton heads have put into his mind · that the
at 2.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , man with all his ability of emulating God's creations has never been successful in just one thing in this House in preventing young dogs from barking at the moon. I say this , Mr. Chairman, because some of the remarks made here are equivalent to baying at the moon and barking at the moon , and what strikes me most is that
Government is favouring only its supporters . You will be surprised that in these new coops that have been established- and, in fact, the one that has been established in Fingoland · the Government is not interested in what party a man belongs to and you will be surprised when I tell you that over 90 per cent of the directors in that co-op are DP
people try to express opinions on things they are wholly ignorant of, which lowers their prestige in this House. They have not learned one very important lesson · that if
people . MR. GUZANA: The most progressive people in the Transkei.
you have nothing to say, it is better to keep quiet. At the same time, Mr. Chairman , I wish to express my appreciation of some of the members on the opposite side
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I am only telling you that to refute the allegation that we work only with the Govern-
of the House , but I am surprised if those are the best members that could be chosen
ment people. As long as they are not Communists we shall allow them to be directors
by the Leader of the Opposition.
153 .
thing in our power to uplift the people wherever they are willing to help themselves , but what no Government will ever do · a responsible Government · is to throw the money away to hogs who do not know how to use it. I am talking of the people who have not one contour strip on their land and expect the Government to advance the
or sub-directors . Now just while I am still on that point of gardens , I must warn you that you did not fully appreciate the statement in the policy speech. When we speak of tea gardens we are not speaking in regard to your kraal site . We are speaking of the land right up in the buwa. Now, we don't call them tea fields , but tea gardens , and we don't compel anyone who does not want to grow tea to grow tea or cotton or monkey-
money to buy fertilizers . There are many other considerations that the Treasury takes into account. The character of the man is taken into account . He must not be a Com-
nuts or anything else , and we don't say he should use his whole land for that project if he does not wish to . Now reference was made by one hon. member whom I trusted , but I was disappointed with his approach Chief D.D.P. , the hon . sub-chief D.D.P. (Laughter) when he criticized the structure of my statement, saying that there were no big letter-heads and that the information was haphazard . Let him know, Mr. Chairman , that I have no intention of employing him as my secretary . I have my secretaries who type my speeches and I am satisfied that
munist; he must not be a criminal ; he must not be an instigator or an intimidator. That is why we leave it to the people to form their own co-operatives , so that they can admit the people they want . Now, there are so many points that have been raised and , as I said before , I cannot hope to touch on them all, but I must stress in your minds that the advance that is going to be made in the Transkei depends on you. You have said on that side that we should take agriculture out of politics, and I can give you just one instance where you have dragged it into politics - where you have threatened the people that if they vote for a certain Government candidate then they are voting for the Government policy, which is re-
they are in order. But he says now I do not go into detail enough. Now, if I had to go into all the details in so far as agriculture is concerned I would still be speaking tomorrow afternoon. A policy statement like this is only a bird's eye view of the proceedings or deliberations of the department concerned . If he wants any details he can get my report which is in the library or, if he cannot get one there , there is the
habilitation . I am looking at the man just now who said so in Lusikisiki , and that man says he is co-operating . And I must tell you hon . members that the blood of
one in my office . I used to keep these reports before , but I have not done so this year because you have abused them . I am not going to tell you how because there are so many abuses you have put into it . That is where you will get all the information , hon. sub-chief D.D.P. (Laughter) MR. clown.
GUZANA:
these people will be called upon you to account. (Laughter) Yes, that is quite true . If the land is scarred and you tell the people they must not co-operate with the I will just Government.... (Interjections) pause because I cannot go any further. My heart is throbbing fast because I really feel these people are heading for disaster. In Tsomo district I visited one administrative area and I heard from the people at the meeting - a very representative meeting that they are not going to vote for the candidate they voted for in 1963. I can tell you who that member is if you want to , because he was there. They say they voted for him on the ticket that he would stop rehabilitation, and rehabilitation was getting in there fast. You cannot get it faster than it is in Tsomo today . I said to him: What is your ticket today? Now you ask me whether he will be here in 1968. I will just spare him the ordeal of pronouncing his name, because he has not been very troublesome this time. (Laughter) Now, you must keep that in mind and know that you are growing older and older every day and you will never regain the time you have wasted and you will never undo the harm you have done. Again, my hon. friend Mr. Busakwe , Chairman of the House , erstwhile the (Laughter) asked me whether I thought a man could live on 50 cents a day , and I reminded him that that was only the minimum . The maximum is 85 cents a day , but even then he said it was negligible . But you must remember that on an interjection he had to admit that the old Bunga only paid 25 cents . You must remember that
Every circus has its
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And my hon. friend, Mr. Zibi from Daveyton, where he speaks about.... No , I will come to him later . No wonder I have forgotten what he said because I did not record it here . Now, the hon. Mr. Busakwe spoke about dams in unrehabilitated areas and other relevant services , and said that he was supported by somebody else , and he said that I seemed to concentrate only on those regions which had accepted soil reclamation. Well , that is not quite true , but you can only work with people who are prepared to co-operate. We will never construct dams where we are not certain whether those areas will be camps or residential areas . He says those dams have silted up and we have not had them scooped . What has he done? He is a stock-owner. Why doesn't he scoop them because it has got to be done by manual labour anyway, but if those dams fall within a rehabilitated area then we scoop them. You say there is no incentive to rehabilitation , but still you want these dams and you want fertilizer. You want seed and yet you refuse to take one step towards co-operation. I can assure you, hon. members , that we shall do every-
these people
154.
are
staying at their homes
pull your and feed them well and they can p plough . Now I come to the controversial question of the introduction of stock . There
with their families and they get their rations at their homes , and they return to their homes in the evening, so you cannot compare them with people who are working in Upington and other towns . They have their lands which, unfortunately, they just scratch over instead of ploughing deeply and, over and above that , it is not my Department which fixed these wages . All I have to do is to go to the Treasury and if I should satisfy my Chief Minister, the paramount chief, that there is need for so many 85 cents , then he gives it to me to pay over to Mr. Busakwe's people . Now, Sir, I must come to a very delicate question which shows that where ignorance is bliss , ' tis folly to be wise . I refer now to your reference to artificial insemination. The
I must warn you , hon . members , that you must not jump to conclusions . You must investigate the cause as to why your permit is refused. I went to the hon. member in the foyer after he had made that rash statement that I had issued counter-circulars and I asked him whether he could produce the number of the circular that I actually issued from the Department to say I had cancelled permission to introduce stock. Now, like an African he started wavering about it (Laughter) because I wanted to telephone the magistrate and find out which magistrate said that, but he was not prepared to stand . Like a worm he had no
contemptuous way you refer to it only displays your ignorance of the whole set-up and we have just had one year of this attempt. If you like you can visit our stud at Mount Pleasant and see some of the cows there that have been born of this experiment. Or I can arrange for you to go one day , if you like , to watch the doctor when he is
backbone. He had to admit frankly that what the magistrate told him was that, all things being equal , permission would still hold good , but where circumstances such as over-grazing do not allow of such introduction and the dipping authorities consider it will not be economical to introduce more stock into that particular area, then of course any reasonable man would not autho-
doing the operation, but I wonder if you can appreciate it even if you see it because you just pretend not to see , ostrich fashion.
rise the issue of such a permit. Near here there is the location of Qweqwe and they wanted to introduce stock there , and they came to me because the officers refused,. and it was discovered that the location was overstocked . What they did was to cut the fences adjacent to the administrative area and pinch grazing there , all under false pretences . They pretended that their daughter
Well , I will just give you one great advantage of this. You can get blood into your stock which you would never have dreamed of by any other method , foul or fair , because we can import this stuff from India or China.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Or Russia.
had married a man at Gqogqora and they were paying "lobola" because we still
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Or Russia, or wherever you like , but we have sufficient material in South Africa to
allow "lobola ” cattle in . If you get ten or fifteen head of cattle for your ugly daughter (Laughter) we do not consider that at all . We just give you the permit to introduce that stock. Would any magistrate therefore allow the introduction of stock into Qweqwe? Now, my hon . friend there , Mr. Luwaca , said that the Department does not provide accommodation for its labour and he also
serve you people . Just wait and see . One stupid fellow there said that this artificial insemination is a way of culling stock. (Laughter) Do we need to resort to all that expense in order to cull your stock? Do you know how expensive and scientific this process is? And don't you know, hon. member, that we have stopped culling your stock? You will do it yourselves because we have given all the powers that we used to retain over to the authorities . Well , so much for that. Now, one hon . member is so obsessed about machinery vehicular machinery, because he runs a fleet of buses (Laughter) that he wants us now to discard our methods of ploughing as farmers and take to mechanical transport. Well, I have no objection if he should harness a plough behind his bus and he can plough as many acres as he likes , but he must not come to the Government and ask the Government to
complained Konjwayo's
about the monkeys there at and that there are no nests
made for them. (Laughter) The hon . member compared us unfavourably with the Deaprtment of Roads and Works , forgetting in the meantime (because I see the grey now has affected his brain and the grey matter is leaking out of his skull) that the roads
·
people go from place to place and so my hon. friend the Minister of Roads has no alternative but to house those people in the tents . But is your hut, hon. member, so uncomfortable that if you had to do work at the location across the river you would rather abandon your hut and live in that tent? Our labourers are really static . They work one simple radius from their homes. If it should be necessary for the Department, particularly in the forestry section , to make accommodation available we do
buy tractors for the whole of the Transkei , because he says there are no oxen. He says that stock has decreased. That is not true. He should read my report. The number has remained static since we took over. Of course, you must look at this aspect : I have seen two hefty oxen at Tsolo pulling a ten-inch plough, so that there is no need if you can feed your two oxen (if you have any money left when the buses have swallow-
so, because there at the with clerical available and
ed it) to have a tractor. Just buy two oxen
to , whether there are so many fleas in his
155.
we also want people to be forest. And definitely, also, staff we make accommodation I do not know what he refers
his regional authority · to call a meeting so that I might address them on agriculture , and each time I have been put off.
hut that he cannot stay there in the location across the river . (Laughter) Now, coming to the more important question of water, which was raised by my hon . friend, Mr. L.T. Mazwi, who has raised something he mentioned sensible for the first time
MR. GUZANA: You had one at Chief Dalingozi's place .
the problem of water and of course, in his simple mind (because he is thinking only of Nqamakwe and not of other areas ) he thinks we are doing nothing in that line. We are doing all we can, but you must remember that it costs a lot of money and my Department is very concerned about
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , Dalingozi is a very good chief in the Dalindyebo region. So, hon. members , I cannot go and visit where I am not invited . You invited me to visit you at your location in Engcobo district and when I got there your headman said no meeting had been convened , so I had to waste petrol for nothing. (Interjections) Now, in regard to the grazing fee the shadow Cabinet Minister of Finance has referred to , if people have fenced their location I think it is only fair and I have no sympathy for such people. That money does not accrue to me . I suppose
Nqamakwe and Nomaheya , the place he mentioned. I travelled through there with my secretary, but I looked for his home and I could not find it anywhere . Nobody could identify him. (Laughter) We are now contemplating a situation where we are going to have a reservoir and pump the water right up to the top of the hill so that it can be led to the residential areas by means of a certain type of machine called a ram which can shoot up water right to Satan himself.
it accrues to the authority concerned. Now, last but not least (so those I have not replied to know they have just been speaking trash) one hon. member (I think the hon. Mr. Busakwe) mentioned that we pay R21 for semi- skilled labour. That also shows ignorance . These demonstrators who were trained by the Bunga were employed in a different manner to the present, and only those who showed aptitude or of responsibility during their measure training were taken to do demonstration work. The rest, of course , were allowed to return home and show their parents the correct methods of cultivation with no prospect of employment. When we took over in 1963 we remembered these people and we took them up as semi-skilled labourers and we use them, under supervision of
(Laughter)
MR. L.T. MAZWI : When will that be? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : As soon as possible . Coming to the hon . Chief Tutor Ndamase, he was not very serious in some of his remarks , but what I agree with him about is the point where only three camps are available in rotational grazing and one camp has to be rested for a year . He must remember, however, that it was arrived at after very careful consideration by experts and all he has to do is to try and co-operate. While I am on the subject of camps , I must sound a note of warning and solicit your co-operation those people who have already been fenced in. There is no point in fencing the whole administrative area and then not following scientific methods of grazing rotation . I refer this particularly to Western Pondoland, on the line from Nyandeni to Port St. John's . There are certain gates you will always find broken down or lying on the ground . I wish the hon . Chief would inquire into that and get the people to keep the gates in good repair, because it is no use if rotation-
course, but allow them the opportunity of proving their worth. Then we promote them. to agricultural officer, grade 3. Well , how can you blame the Government there ? MR. L.A. LUWACA: What do you pay them?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They know what they are paid. What is that to do with you ? You are not a demonstrator .
al grazing is not practised . On my way to
MR. LUWACA: We want to know. the Great Place at Nyandeni once or twice , travelling by the top road, I was very very much impressed by the way the gates were kept there, and the grass in some of the camps was taller than I am. Now, the hon . Mr. Lufefeni said something very sensible when he said that the Minister did not
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : To resume , Mr. Chairman , I told you we just took these people from the dust and shook them and then we use them. They were thrown away by the Bunga and now we pay them. They are paid R21 for sure , but what were they getting when we came and rescued them? (Interjections )
make himself available to the people . He has once or twice invited me to his location but I must admit cowardice here, because after those incidents of Nkosiy ane and Nogcantsi I got scared. (Laughter) I thought of the spider and the fly story, but if I get a good escort I might visit you after the session. I might inform him of this , however - that I don't find sufficient co-
THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
Order,
please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, in regard to the Schools of Agriculture , you cannot blame us for closing down these schools because they were closed down by the Bunga for a reason which we did not ask. I suppose they could not employ
operation amongst the Dalindyebo people . I have a handful of times begged the hon. Paramount Chief to give me audience with
156.
the students after they had left the school and they returned them to other useful
There are now unmistakable signs that
purposes . Should you complain about that? We have so few officers in the Forestry Department those we train at Swartkop and Middledrift -• and the Government in its
the subject of the Transkei realises more and more that he is a proud citizen of a self-governing territory; that , as such, he has rights and duties not only as regards himself but to his community , his country
generosity allows us to share those institutions . Why should we put up a shadow for a school at Kambi or anywhere ? How many people would train there? Now, Mr. Chairman , I think I have just come to the end of my speech but at the same time I must appeal to you for the last time to go home and behave like members of Parliament, to convene meetings not to agitate or dictate , but to instruct people. Don't wait until 1968 when there will be a general election because some of you will be disappointed there . I think before you vacate this House for ever you should have done something and add at least one convert towards agricultural progress , and not
and his people as well. The notion that a nation can never be greater than its subjects , is beginning to take root strongly; and there is a growing tendency towards great er interest in matters which affect this National Unit and the Transkei as such . Cases zen s
settle here and to serve their people in various ways. The interest being displayed in welfare work and in the uplifting of the underprivileged is increasing while meetings reveal that a greater interest is being taken in the affairs of the country .
emulate my nephew there who , during the campaign, because he had no policy to put before the people , said that those people who received help from the Government by way of fertilizer were advocating soil reclamation, were pro- Government and made it easy for the Government to start fencing and so they should be eliminated. That is what he said. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , you must not be surprised that I am standing mute . It is because I had to make a great effort to say this which I am saying, but I wish to say it here so that those who emulate him or take that direction must know that God is (Laughter)
It is found that, on various levels, there are those who are prepared, for the sake of a national cause, to serve and to assist in the building of the future of a people and a country. Having such people and it is my conviction that more and more of these will come forward there need be no fear for the future.
STAFF : ESTABLISHMENT AND EXPANSION
The establishment of the Department of the Interior consists of 65 prescribed posts and 4 non - prescribed posts.
watching them from above.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: location rehabilitated?
are known of Transkeian citiwho have come from elsewhere to
Is your own Eleven posts are filled by Republican Government officers seconded to the Govern-
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Remember that each one of us has a duty to do before he is laid down and interred.
ment Service of the Transkei . Regarding the seconded personnel , as a result of retire-
Thank you , Mr. Chaiman.
ments , transfers and one death , 4 new members have since 1/4/66 been admitted to the Department . Of the head office establishment, all but nine of the 65 posts have not, as yet , been filled. As in the past, constant attention is being given to the internal training of staff and good progress is being made in this regard. Several of the officers also attended, with good results, courses in
The amendment moved by the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota "That Vote 5 be reduced by a sum of R3,200 in respect of the Minister's salary" was put and lost by 37 votes to 55. The sum of R5,025,000 in respect of Vote 5, Agriculture and Forestry , was passed to stand part of the schedule .
supervision, conducted by the Public Service Commission .
POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE CHIEF J.D. MOSHESH, MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
ELECTORAL SECTION .
The electoral section was responsible Mr.
Chairman,
honourable
for the arrangements in connection with the by-elections conducted in the Dalindyebo , Nyanda and Qaukeni electoral divisions on
paramount
chiefs , honourable Ministers and honourable members.
the 12th April, 1967. The voters' lists required for the by- elections were prepared and
There is one gladdening aspect to which I wish to refer at the outset . As you are
printed locally. This was an enormous task which had never been done , or even attamp-
aware, it is the duty of my Department to keep an ever wat chful eye over the interest, status, rights, duties and the welfare of the individual Transkei an citizen .
ted, in Umtata.
Three
additional
printing
machines had to be hired by Elata Printers to complete the job in time. The printing of
157 .
the lists commenced on the 17th October,
so on, so that, in addition to benefiting needy person's by providing a local source of cash
1966, and was completed on the 23rd January, 1967 , only, at a cost of nearly R14,000 .
income, the works
With the general election of 1963 , as well as the subsequent by- elections, the printing and the distribution of the lists were undertaken
would also function as
part of the maintenance programme of the Departments of Agriculture and Forestry and Roads and Works ,
by the Government Printer, Pretoria. The printing of the ballot papers which was also
Relief work generally is, of course, merely a temporary measure to be introduced
done by Elata Printers and distributed by the Electoral section , commenced on nomination day, the 13th February, 1967 , and the last
only at times of extreme adversity, and because of its high cost and detraction from the principle of self-help, is to be avoided
ballot papers were dispatched to Returning Officers on the 10th March, 1967. There were altogether 891 polling stations in the Republic and the Transkei manned by 4081
whenever possible. It is, therefore, my fervent hope that the good rains that have fallen in the Transkei over recent months
officials . The by-elections were well publicised in the press, over Radio Bantu , the English and Afrikaans services of Radio
will produce conditions which will obviate the need for further relief work for a long time to come .
South Africa, Springbok Radio, by the distriLABOUR .
bution of 55,000 pamphlets, the display of 1,100 placards and also at meetings held by Magistrates, Bantu Affairs Commissioners
Here I wish to give the House a detailed statistical survey for the benefit of members
and Information Officers. In spite thereof the polling percentage was very low, namely 34% in the Dalindyebo division , 56% in the Nyanda division and 37% in the Qaukeni division. A General Election will be held in the
especially on the Opposition side, because they are the ones who are always pointing a finger at this section of my Department.
Transkei during 1968 which will require a much bigger organisation and an early start
It is estimated that, of the 700,000 male citizens in the Transkei , 250,000 are potential wage eamers . Of these wage earners
will have to be made . There is a possibility that the general election will be conducted
about 85% are dependent on employment in the Republic for a livelihood, whilst only
on a district and not on a regional basis, in
15% are employed in the Transkei itself. Of
which event legislation in this respect will be introduced this session.
those in employment in the Transkei , over 40% are employed by Government departments and semi -government bodies, nearly 13% by commercial concerns and about 20% in dome-
RELIEF OF DISTRESS.
After having spent nearly R320,000 during the 1965/66 financial year on relief of distress measures as a result of the serious
stic service .
drought conditions which prevailed at the time, my Department was obliged to continue such reliefmeasures in the 1966/67 financial year, although on a reduced scale, in five
the disparity between extemal employment and internal employment still persists in the
It will be seen from these figures that
unsatisfactory ratio of 10 to 1. In other words, the migratory labour system still remains a paramount factor in the economy
Matatiele , Elliotdale , namely, districts, Nqamakwe, St. Marks and Tsomo, portions of which had not benefited from the rains
of the Transkei ; and, despite the aversion which may exist towards that system of
which fell during 1966. The cost of these continued relief measures amounted to close on R75,000 resulting in much-needed assis-
employment, it will have to be accepted until such time as sufficient avenues of employment can be provided within the Transkei itself to absorb a substantial por-
tance to a large number of persons who would otherwise have been virtually unable to subsist . The importation of sufficient quantities of staple food into the Transkei, especially maize , was kept under constant sur-
tion of the labour force which , under present circumstances, is obliged to work beyond our borders . The prime economic consideration at the moment, then, is the availability of ade-
veillance by my Department, and on several occasions representations were made to the Republican Government and the South African Railways to the effect that the inflow of
quate employment for our huge labour force , no matter where that employment may be , and I wish to assure the honourable members of
food commodities was inadequate or unsatisfactory.
this Assembly that my Department is keeping a close watch on the position , and doing everything in its power, by consultation and
Over the whole drought period the relief measures took the fom of relief works such
negotiation with the Republican authorities, to improve the situation.
as repairing of roads, eradication of noxious A
weeds, cleaning and repairing of dams and
158.
striking
feature
of the
statistics
appearing in my Department's report for 1966 is the increased number of workseekers
tries; 7.8 per cent to the Building industry; 3.6 per cent was taken up by Government Departments, 4.9
placed in employment by the Government labour bureaux, during that year, namely
per cent by the S.A. Railways, 6.7 per cent by Local Authorities , 2.1
23,601 . In 1963 the recruitment figure was only 27.5% of that total, which shows what
per cent by Provincial Administrations and 6.4 per cent by Commerce.
progress has been made in this respect in the short space of 3 years.
Of the aforementioned 23,601 workers, An other feature of interest is the increased number of Transkei an citizens who have been licensed as recruiters . At the end
76.9 per cent were employed in the Western Cape area, 1.9 per cent in the Eastern Cape; 4.8 per cent in Namaqualand; 13.9 per cent in the Transvaal ; 2.1 per cent in the Orange Free State and only 0.4 per cent in Natal.
of 1966 the number stood at only 22. Since then the number has more than doubled and now stands at 53, thus affording more and more opportunity for enterprising Africans in this field.
In regard to the abovementioned 23 ; 601 labourers recruited during 1966 by labour bureaux in the Transkei, comparative figures
It is with pleasure that I announce the recent formation in the Transkei of an Ad-
for previous years are: 1960 1359 : 1467 1961 :
virosy Committee comprising the Secretary for the Interior (as Chairman) the Assistant Secretary, the Chief Clerk, and the District Superintendent M.L.O. (N.R.C. ) Ltd. , in connection with what is known as the Deferred Pay Interest Fund. This fund, as its name denotes , consists of interest accrued on the deferred pay of mineworkers ; and because no purpose would be served in
1962 1963 1964
1342 : : 6523 : 16500
1965
: 20142
The number of requisitions for labour received from employers in the Republic were 3,333 during 1966 as compared with 2,326 in 1965 and 1,337 in 1964 .
paying each individual mineworker the small amount of interest due to him , the interest is
54,794 workseekers were registered by labour bureaux during 1966 ; 55.016 during 1965 and 45,078 during 1964.
lumped together and then paid out in the form or grants or donations, on a pro rata basis, to deserving welfare organisations, hospitals , clinics and other bodies in the respective homelands for the collective benefit of all
(c) of the
total
of 131,059
workers
the pioneer district welfare organisation , Elliotdale , " Ntlalontle Wase Xora'' received
recruited by licensed labour agents during 1966 , 48.4 per cent were absorbed in the gold mines; 10.3
a grant of R800 from the fund, and other organisations may benefit in the same way . The function of the Advisory Committee I have mentioned is to submit and recommend
per cent in coal mines; 10.7 per cent in other mines ; 28.6 in Agriculture (including the sugar industry) and 2.0 in other industries ,
applications for financial assistance to the Board of Control in Pretoria, and I can assure honourable members that the Commi-
Labour Agents licensed during 1966 Were:
mineworkers
and their families. Recently,
ttee will do whatever is possible to ensure that the Transkei gets its fair share of these monies.
Whites 373 Africans 22 Revenue derived from Recruiting Licence fees amounted to R12,800.
The following statistics for the calendar year 1966 may be of interest :
(d) Average wages paid to migratory workers from the Transkei ranged from ( 1) R12.00 to R18.00 per month plus free food and quarters in res-
(a) The total number of Transkei an workers (both male and female , in all fields of employment in the
pect of Agriculture, Forestry and the Fishing industry ; (2) R4.50 to R9.00 per week ( no free food and no free accommodation) for factory.
Republic of South Africa during 1966 amounted to 278,093 as compared with 257,586 during 1965 — an increase of 20,507.
workers;
recruited by labour bureaux in the Transkei during 1966 was absorbed
(3) R0.85 to R2.00 per diem in respect of the Building Trade and Construction and ( 4) from R0.90 to R1.40 per diem in respect of the Railways .
in Agriculture, Forestry and the Fishing industry; 8 per cent went to Mines, Brick works, Quarries , etc. , 24.4 per cent to Factories and Indus-
The mines paid from R0.34 to R2.00 per shift (8 hours) plus free food and free accommodation. (Here I must
(b) 36 per cent of the labour (23,601)
159 .
mention that the rates of pay become
am afraid, with due respect , Mr. Chairman, that I cannot allow such a situation . As it is
considerably enhanced in the case of workers who acquire special skill , experience and responsibility machine operating, etc. )
I am only on page 13 and I have still to go as far as page 28. Let it suffice that the Leader
in
of the Opposition has a copy.
The debate was adjourned . (e) The economic benefit derived by the Transkei from earnings of migratory labour annually is in the region of:
House Resumed
The Deputy Chairman reported progress .
(1) Deferred Pay, etc. R3,500,000 (2) Remitted home personally by workers 3,000,000
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 12th May, 1967 .
(3) Brought home personally by workers 2,500,000 FRIDAY, 12TH MAY, 1967 .
TOTAL
R9,000,000 The
(f) The number of Transkei an citizens in employment in the Transkei as at the 30th June , 1966 , was : Males Females Total
(1) In urban areas 7690 (2) In rural areas 15062
4564 6347
12254 21409
TOTALS 22752
10911
33663
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
Prayers were read .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
The total cash eamings per annum of workers employed in the Transkei (based on a cash income of R127 per person) amount to R4,192,000.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House resolve itself into committee.
The following reflects the average wages paid to workers in the Transkei :-
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE: I second, Mr. Chairman.
Government
(a) Males (b) Females (c) Juveniles
Agreed to .
Basis
Min.
Max.
Daily 99
R0.50 .35 .20
R0.85 .55
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman ,
.30
I have to ask your indulgence that I have
99
come so late. It is because of my position which you know very well . Sir , I request that we return to item 4 on the order paper , I have certain papers to lay upon the table.
Non-Government
( a) Males
Monthly 99 099
(b) Females (c) Juveniles
R10.00 5.00 4.00
R20.00 10.00 7.00
THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . memAgreed to.
bers, I wonder if we should not finish now?
THE CHAIRMAN : I hope in future you will not embarrass us again , hon . Minister .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I move that the House adjoum , Mr. Chairman , and we can continue in the morning .
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Will the THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in accordance with the
House allow me to report progress?
I
proviso to section 12 (4) of Proclamation
wonder, in view of the extent of the policy statement being given by the hon . Minister , if he would not allow us to have copies of his speech so that we can read them overnight? It is very , very long and it is full of very interesting statistics. I think Mr. Chairman, we would do more credit with our com-
No. R.334 of 1963, I lay upon the table a return reflecting particulars of all persons appointed to posts higher than the entry grades of the Govemment Service since the commencement of the preceding ordinary
MR .
T.H.
BUBU:
Mr.
Chairman,
session
of
the
Legislative
Assembly .
EXPRESSION OF SYMPATHY : ILLNESS
ments if we could be allowed to study this statement so that we can criticize it intel-
OF THE HONOURABLE DR. T.E. DONGES, STATE PRESIDENT ELECT
ligently.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I
160 .
and hon. members, with your indulgence , Sir, I regret to inform the Legislative Assembly that yesterday the honourable
aspect of orphans and children in need of care.
Dr. Donges, who is the President Elect , was
There has been a pressing need in the Transkei for an institution to provide care
attacked by a serious illness of the brain . As you know, the inauguration of the State President was scheduled for the 31st May,
and shelter for orphans and other children who cannot be cared for in the normal manner by parents or guardians ; and to meet this
1967 , in Cape Town. Dr. Donges is now seriously ill in Groote Schuur Hospital in Cape Town and his condition is reported to be serious . The Assembly notes this report with deep sorrow .
need my Department has negotiated with the Holy Cross Convent authorities at Cala for conversion of the existing European Children's Home there into a Home for
African children . These negotiations have reached an advanced stage, and it is hoped that the newly- converted children's Home will begin operating in the latter half of the
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, we are all associated with the deep sorrow expressed by the hon . the Chief Minister of the very serious illness of the President Elect . I think the most shocking thing is the suddenness of this cerebral
year . This is an entirely new venture as far as the Transkei is concerned , and it is
haemorrhage and we wish to give his family and himself all encouragement in this very sad illness of the head of that family .
hoped that the facilities provided by the Home will not in any way detract from the traditional responsibility that the peoples of the Transkei have always exercised in connection with the care and upbringing of their own children. In other words, the Home
House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the hon. the Minister of the Interior to
will be there to cater only for children whom the Courts declare, in terms of the Children's
continue with his policy speech .
Act, to be without any of the traditional or MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon .
usual means of care and support .
members, I think we should regularise the
The existing Children's Home at Cala
procedure which was thrown out of gear a few minutes ago . I would therefore move that the House in committee resolve that
which it is now proposed to convert, has already been inspected by senior officials of my Department, and I can give the assurance that the facilities available there are of a very high order indeed .
the announcements made by the hon . the Chief Minister , together with the comments of the Leader of the Opposition be regarded as having been made at the open session of the Legislative Assembly and that the Legislative Assembly, having resolved itself into committee now returns to committee .
Then we have the question of youth camps. Plans are well-advanced for the establishment of a youth camp (or reform school) on the Government-owned farm Luchabadrift about 8 miles from Umtata . This Youth
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I second .
Agreed to.
camp is intended to serve as a corrective
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr.
training centre for juvenile delinquents who have been committed to such an institution by Children's Courts. The training lays emphasis on the general moral rehabilitation of the individual and fitting him for occupations in which he will be able to earn an
Chairman and hon . members, just a word in passing before I continue with my policy speech. I am sure the hon . members realise that the section I dealt with yesterday before we adjourned is a mere section of my Department, not a department of its own, and therefore I request the members to appreciate the work done by this section of my Department
honest living for himself on discharge from the institution . Experience in the Republic has proved that this type of corrective training is far superior to, and infinitely more
towards finding employment for the citizens of the Transkei outside our borders . I shall
productive of, lasting results than any of the other harsher forms of detention and
now proceed, Mr. Chairman .
disciplinary procedure nomally resorted to . The juvenile offender in the rural area who has had corrective training in a youth camp for a year or two would emerge with a basic
POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE CHIEF J.D. MOSHESH , MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR ( CONTINUED )
knowledge of practical
WELFARE SECTION
a useful addition to the farming community of his home area, whilst the delinquent from an
agriculture and be
urban area, probably an illegitimate , who has indulged in petty crime as a livelihood,
I wish , first of all , to deal with the
161.
would emerge sufficiently rehabilitated and trained to enable him to take his place in society as an honest worker and a credit to
number of persons who are in receipt of disability grants including those suffering from T.B. The Department of Health and S.A.N.T.A. are locked in battle against a formidable enemy in this case, and the 1 pre-
the community .
Regarding social work, Mr. Chairman, it has been the intention of my Department
ssing need for stronger and more drastic preventative and curative measures cannot be over-emphasized.
ever since its inception to appoint suitably trained and qualified welfare officers in the regional authority areas of the Transkei as
In spite of the fact that Health Services
part of its overall programme of social welfare work. Regrettably this process has
do not yet form part of the functions of the Transkei Government, My Department is giving whatever assistance it can in the
been exceedingly slow, due to an apparent shortage of qualified people.
form of negotiation and co-operation in the fight against the great tuberculosis evil in our midst .
However, my Department was successful towards the end of last year in obtaining the services of two female applicants, both of whom hold degrees in Social Science , and
There is, however, one front on which the members of this House, tribal and re-
in February last placed one in the Emigrant Tembuland area and one in the Maluti area.
gional authorities and private bodies can render practical help in the matter. You are, no doubt, well aware of the frequent complaint of doctors that T.B. sufferers who have been discharged from hospital as
In the short space of time in which they have been stationed in those areas, they have not only rendered valuable service but have also proved how essential it is that the remaining regional authority areas be staffed with Departmental welfare officers
cured, fail to report to a hospital or clinic thereafter, as instructed, for the periodic follow-up in the form of injections or medicine that is so essential if a further flare-up of the disease is to be avoided . A patient
without delay. My Department is naturally continuing its efforts to this end.
The Senior Welfare
Officer ,
who fails to co-operate in this way not only nullifies all the good creative work that the doctor and the hospital have already done for him , but often again lands up in hospital , frequently in a worse condition than before. For those who are engaged in the ceaseless fight against T.B. , this state of affairs is
who has
been with the Department since 1964 , has been very active in her work and has achieved much in laying the foundations of community development and other welfare activities in the Transkei . Her task has by no means been an easy one as she has in many
extremely
frustrating;
for
the
State
the
cases had to surmount obstacles of deeprooted habits, especially amongst the uneducated people of the rural areas, but her work
wasted costs are a heavy burden; and for the breadwinner himself loss of earning -time and earning-power leads to nothing else but
is now being facilitated to some extent by
poverty
the two officers,
dependants .
recently- appointed resulting in turn
field welfare in a greater
and distress
for his
family
and
measure of progress and achievement. The ideal of uplift , rehabilitation and self-realisation of the individual is slowly but surely
It will thus be seen that in this great campaign against the scourge of T.B. , the co-operation of the patient is essential and I
being attained, while family life is being led into paths of improved hygiene, sanitation, eating habits, home economics, disease prevention and so on.
sincerely trust that every individual and every organisation concerned in this matter will leave no stone 1 untumed in stressing the necessity of strict compliance by T.B.
Statistics
regarding
social
sufferers with doctors' instructions to report regularly for further examination and treatment .
benefits
show the number of pensions as at the 28th February , 1967 , as follows : -
Old Age Pensions
42,818
Disability Grants Blind Pensions
18,161 1,829
The Population
Section is
concerned
with the registration of births, marriages and deaths . During the last calendar year 26,400 births , 3,393 marriages and 11,969 deaths were registered.
75
applications
for late
registration of births and deaths were approved. The following appointments were also made; 26 district Registrars of Births and and 70 Ecclesiastical Marriage Deaths
Machines for the handling of hollerith vouchers were installed in the offices of the Department of Finance last year, and as from the 1st September, 1966 , all vouchers for the payment of pensions and grants are prepared in Umtata.
Officers . PENSIONS BILL .
Honourable members will be pleased to
It will be seen that there are a large
162.
C six general plans, 327 diagrams as well as the mounting of the zoning plans of all towns in the Transkei .
leam that it is my intention to introduce , during the present session, a Bill providing , amongst other things, for ( a) the payment of gratuities to officers and employees who were transferred from the service of the
The next section I will deal with is the Land Administration section. This section is divided into sub-sections , namely the
Republican Government to the Service of the Government of the Transkei and who did not , at any time, contribute to any pension fund;
Deeds Registry and the Land Administration low bel section.
and (b) for the adaptation and widening of the scope of the Transkei an Government Employees' Pensions Fund to allow for the admission of teachers to that fund.
The Deeds Registry , the main task of which is connected with surveyed districts, handled the following year:-
The Bill is the culmination of intensive investigation , consultation and negotiation on the subject of a suitable pension fund for teachers; and the passing of the Bill by this Assembly will be an important milestone in the 1 efforts of my Department to provide adequate and up-to-date pension benefits for officers and Government .
employees
of the
matters
during the
(a) 367 registrations of re-allotments; (b) 476 registration's of transfers; (c) 335 copies of certified copies of Title Deeds were issued and mor (d) 247 certified copies of diagrams.
Transkei
As the honourable members of this House are aware, all land in the Transkei was transferred to the Transkei Government
The Department, Mr. Chairman has felt a need for new legislation affecting land matters in the Transkei and a Land Settle-
during 1966 in tems of Proclamation No. 93 of 1966. As a result thereof, my Department
ment Bill, which is designed to consolidate and amend, to suit Transkei conditions , where necessary , existing legislation has
now deals with land matters to a gre at er extent than ever before and has to shoulder greater responsibilities . Experience has, however, shown that the added loadof work has not adversely affected the smooth
been drawn up and circulated to interest ed parties. This is an important and involved piece of legislation and requires careful consideration and for that reason it is doubted whether it will be introduced before
running of nom al departmental functions and the position is fully coped with. Mr. Chairman, it is also al function of the Lands Administration Section to deal
next year's session . Mr. Chairman, I come now to the activities of the Land Survey Section of my Depart-
with the various applications for trading F licences in the Transkei . The following number of applications was dealt with during the year:-
ment, which section deals mainly with the technical side of things. I reported last year that difficulties were being experienced in filling the post of Land Surveyor. I regret to report now that , owing to the general shortage of surveyors, my Department has not as yet had any success in filling the post in question .
Unfortunately, the Senior Land Surveyor has now also left the Service and this step has been a considerable blow to the activities of the Department . However , it is hope d that the two posts will be filled in the near future; and, if no success is achieved in
General Dealers' licences Bantu Traders' licences Bantu Bakers licences Bantu Butchers' licences
24 71 2 19
Bantu Eating House licences Cafe licences
18 43
Fresh produce dealers ' licences Millers' licences
10 1
There has been an increase in nearly all types of licences which indicat es that
this direction , my Department will have to consider the employment of private surveyors
Transkei citizens, generally, are developing a desire to engage in business .
on a contract basis. During 1966 the Senior the Senior Land Surveyor carried out surveys
I wish to mention , too , that my Department has approved of the establishment of a township in the Ramah loko ana administrative area in the Matatiele district and to this end
in respect of 6 cases of boundary disputes and replacement of lost beacons, 5 sub- divisions for school and other official purposes , 17 compensatory sites in rehabilitated loca-
the Senior land Surveyor has made a preliminary survey. The plan is at present in the
tions, one trading side for a Bantu occupier and preliminary survey for the establishment of a township in Matatiele district .
hands of expert townplanners who are assisting with the initial planning stages of the project. It is trusted that their proposals will soon be available whereafter actual development of the township will be considered.
The draughtsman attached to the office of the Senior Land Surveyor has completed
163 .
A further function of the Lands Adminis-
Theirs has been the task of ensuring that the many onerous duties covered by the
tration Section is the purchase of land on behalf of the Transkei Govemment . A trans- .
Garage for the Transkei . Another piece of land for the erection of a technical college has also been purchased from the Municipa-
Department are carried out systematically, efficiently and as expeditiously as possible. These duties , I can assure you , Mr. Chairman, have been performed in a thorough manner in the prevailing good spirit which has become the hall-mark of this branch of the Govemment of the Transkei .
lity of Umtata whilst negotiations for a site for a secondary school within the same municipal area are under way.
The problems still to be encountered are many - that we fully realise - but with
action of interest which took place during last year was the purchase of three erven in Umtata for the erection of a Government
the whole- hearted co -operation of, and the
The Butterworth Municipality has set aside a school site in an extension for
very good work done by, each and every member of the 1 personnel, such problems will surely be reduced to a minimum during the years ahead. By ensuring the smooth
Bantu occupation and this site has been offered to the Transkei Government at the
running of each and every function of this Department, we can look back with satisfac-
cost of survey and transfer. Steps are being taken to transfer the property to this Government.
The zoning
tion and much pride on the fulfilment of tasks which have been accomplished efficiently and in a full spirit of co-operation by all concerned.
of Transkei villages has
sparked off a good deal of interest by Transkei citizens ; and, since the promulgation of the Proclamation which contains the basis
Mr. Chaimman and honourable members, I
of the zoning , no less than 210 properties, in ar eas reserved for Bantu occupation ,
shall fail in my duty if I sit down today without special reference to Mr. R.A.
have been purchased or are in the process of being purchased.
Midgely, the former Secretary of my Department, to his sterling qualities and to the excellent services he has rendered over a
Whilst on the subject of trading, I wish to mention here that the Bantu Investment
period of many years to the Transkei and to
Corporation
has
officially
the people of the Transkei . He was the first Secretary of the Department of the Interior and it fell upon his shoulders to
taken over 85
trading stations in the Transkei . Of these,
build and guide from the very foundation to the Department we have today. He had to command the activities of the day and plan for the future at the same time. That task he
35 are managed by Bantu persons. This same Corporation has also financially assisted no less than 22 Bantu traders during the last year in the purchase of trading stations .
fulfilled with devotion and eamestness and I Mr. Chairman and honourable members,
am convinced that the way he paved will be the way of the future and that the fruits of
the "Stationery and Printing" and "Auxiliary Services" sections of my Department have done whatever was necessary to keep the
his efforts will not only be reaped today but also in years to come.
departmental machine in working order. In my policy speech of last year, I dealt comprehensively with the activities of these two sections and I do not intend repeating what I said on that occasion . I must, however,
In Mr. Midgley, I had a personal and a good friend. I could rely or call upon him at all times . We often discussed matters and I can testify that his manner of approach, his experience and his wisdom have proved to be a never-failing source of help and encouragement.
point out that the Government Printer in Pretoria has indicated that it can no longer supply the Transkei an Departments with stationery and forms . Negotiations are still being carried out in this connection and no finality has been reached , but a considerable
Mr. Midgley , has, however, rendered services in a much wider field than just one
expansion of the two sections I have mentioned may very soon be inevitable. More staff and more office accommodation will be necessary to
cope
with these
Department . He served in a number of Transkei an districts and later on as Assistant Chief Magistrate in Eastern Pondoland. Many a citizen of the Transkei got to know him and learned to appreciate the soundness displayed by him in dealing with all matters whether of consequence or otherwise . In fact, I think it is by this quality that he will best be remembered and Mr. Chairman and
additional
duties. I have, however, no doubt that it will be possible to arrange in such a way that the smooth function ing of the Government departments is not hampered in any way.
honourable members, I am convinced that I speak on behalf of all of us when I wish Mr. and Mrs. Midgley many more years to enjoy a well-deserved rest. May they be blessed with good health and may the knowledge that
I wish, Mr. Chairman , at this juncture to express my appreciation of the excell ent work done by the seconded officers and the Transkei an Civil Servants of my Department.
164.
table ignorance of the regulations relating to the running of a polling station.
they have left a lasting mark in the Transkei add to the happy memories of a fruitful career.
I thank you Mr. Chairman, move that Vote 4 be passed.
THE
and I now
CHIEF
know that?
MINISTER : How do you
Were you
a
polling
officer?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman .
MR. GUZANA : Some of the presiding officers sought illiterate voters to whisper into their one ear the name of the candidate
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and
they wished them to vote for. Others sought to make the mark secret even to the wit-
hon. members, I was rather persuaded into the belief that the hon . the Minister of the
nesses who should be present. Others allowed agents to come in at 12 noon and take the to r oath of secrecy and still others refused allow agents to take the oath of secrecy
Interior would be very brief this session owing to his ill health, but now I think, because he has been kept silent for so long, he has decided to punish us for over two
before polling started at 7 o'clock. These are matters which we are raising now because they will pertinently affect the next
hours in delivering his policy speech which has induced sleep among the hon. members on the Government side. (Laughter) This is
general election which is in 1968. There was an appallingly low percentage of voters who went to the polls at the by- elections and I think it should be the concern of your De-
the only time they are beginning to show interest. Sir, it will be difficult for me to go over every item raised with meticulous care and deal with it as it deserves to be dealt with by an Opposition , but I must point out
partment to find out the reason why people refused to vote.
that every people, what ever their nationality, always seeks improvement and seeks advancement , and it is not a characteristic of
THE CHIEF MINISTER : by the paramount chiefs .
the Xhosa- speaking people that because of separate development they have sought to develop themselves in the various lines in-
please.
THE
dicated by the hon . the Minister of the Interior . Every living thing has to grow, but if it
DEPUTY
Intimidation
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
MR. GUZANA: This is an important part of the democratic system of govemment and the people must be encouraged to exercise
ceases to grow it dies and the Xhosa people, being alive, are moving forward as they have moved forward even before " apartheid''?
this right, rather than find that it has many threats which attach to its exercise. Can we
became the Government obsession. In the motion of no confidence I made reference to
justifiably say, therefore, that when 27 per cent of the electorate in Qaukeni went to
the recent by- elections, but you were not favoured with the opportunity of listening to
the polls that it is reflecting the feelings of
my constructive criticisms and I would like to repeat them to your ears now. The electorate and those who were interested in the results
the people in the Qaukeni area?
- particularly the political parties
per cent in Dalindyebo? Start with your own region.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about 34
were
greatly disturbed to find that there were very many tendered ballot papers used at the last by-elections and these were issued to those whose reference books showed that they had been registered as voters in the 1963 election, but whose names did not appear in the
MR. GUZANA: Whenever I try to sweep
voters' lists for the by-elections held on the
my house the hon. the Chief Minister comes into Dalindyebo and says: You will never have to fence here if you vote for my candidate .
12th April. Whilst this helps officials to keep the voter quiet , to give him the impression that he has cast his vote for his candidate
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who said that? Don't tell lies.
although, in effect , the vote cast is valueless , the people must come to know that these tendered ballot papers are worthless
MR . GUZANA : There must be something happening therefore. There must be a force
and there is going to be a certain amount of restiveness in the electorate if voters find
which is keeping the voters away fromthe polling stations. (Interjections)
that their votes are not taken into account THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
because of a mistake in the compiling of the voters' lists. We would also like to point out that there is need for a deal of care and
MR . GUZANA: I don't know why the Government side should be so restive when
concern in appointing polling officers and
I am analysing the situation.
presiding officers at the various polling stations. Some of the presiding officers who assisted at the last by- elections were drawn from the Republic and they showed a lamen -
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why threaten the people? 165.
Transkei for the coal mines, for the sugar plantations, etc. Another factor is that
MR. GUZANA : I find them guilty of the accusations I am making now. Sir, we seek to be constructive here and I want to speak
parents have come to these recruiting agents and produced baptismal or birth certificates to prove that a boy who was assessed to be
on this question of the compilation of the voters' lists whenever there is a by- election,
17 years of age is in fact 15 years of age and should not be recruited, and it becomes
and I think this will apply even when there is going to be a general election . I suggest that there should be a provisional closing
difficult for a parent to get that child back. I would that the Department of the Interior were to stipulate in the licences that youths
day for registration ; that the voters' lists should lie open for inspection at the various magistrates' offices for a period of a month
proved to be younger than 16 years of age be returned home to the loss of the man who has recruited him. I welcome the establishment of a home for children in Cala. There are some of the children on the Government
or two after that provisional closing date. That will give the people an apportunity to inspect the voters' lists and regularise or correct errors which are not intended, but will arise when a man has to deal with
benches who could well go there. ( Laughter) But I am concerned with the criteria laid down before a child is admitted to this children's home. On page 14, you have stated in the last sentence of the middle paragraph: "In other words, the home will be
600,000 figures and 600,000 names, and mistakes will occur this will give the vot er an opportunity to chech whether he is on the list or not . I would suggest further that these voters' lists should be made available
there to cater only for children whom the courts declare, in terms of the Children's Act , to be without any of the traditional or usual means of care and support." One would like to know if the Children's Act
to all the political parties so that they may check in assisting to have a correct and complete list of voters. Now, Sir, you have said something about the number of people in the Transkei who go out to work outside the Transkei , and your gigures relating to the Bantu stan seem to be a strong criticism of
speaks about the traditional care and support of Xhosa children. If we seek to suggest that children who qualify for the home are those who are without the traditional or usual
the policy of separate development. You will realise that most of our people go out into the Republic because they cannot find work in the Transkei ; because they can find work outside the Transkei .
means of care and support, no one will get into the Children's Home because in Xhosa tradition a child who is four or five or six
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It has been so
degrees removed from me is my relative and my responsibility, and the fourth or fifth
for the last 300 years. There is nothing new about it.
cousin of my wife is still my relative . Now who will get into this Children's Home if that is the position? I suggest that we stick to the provisions of the Act and apply them and then you will be able to assist the
• .because they are required outside the Transkei ; because there is a shortage of labour outside the Transkei - in effect , because they are essential for MR GUZANA : •
children . I may be wrong , but I have always regarded youth camps as places where youth goes in order to be trained in certain voca-
the economic structure of the Republic, including the Transkei itself. This is as it
tions, but especially those without parents but who are not necessarily delinquents, for I think delinquents qualify for a reformatory rather than for a youth camp. You have limited the function of the se youth camps by saying that a youth who goes there will be trained to come out with a practical agricultural knowledge. Why not carpentry, shoe-
should be, because you already crow that last year those who went out of the Transkei to work in the Republic brought back into the Transkei R9 million , and you cannot sweep the sea out - it will constantly come in - nor can you send the water up the river except with a pump obtained from the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. (Laughter) So we must accept the inevitable consequence of the inter- dependence of the races in South Africa. You have indicated ,
making? THE
MINISTER OF
THE
INTERIOR :
That was just an example.
Sir, that quite a number of licences for recruiting labour have been issued in the
MR. GUZANA: Was that an example? Now
Transkei . There is a factor which probably
I read your words on page 15: " The juvenile offender in the rural areas who has had corrective training in a youth camp for a year ot two would emerge with a basic "" knowledge of practical agriculture . • • That is all you say. You don't say " for instance" , and you only open the room wide for acquiring skills to an urban delinquent of an urban youth. I hope the hon . Minister did not intend to limit the training in a youth
has not been brought to your notice and it is this: That boys of 16 and over are recruited or boys apparently 16 and over are recruited , and some of these boys have just run away from school and they get an escape out of the Transkei through these recruiting bodies . I do feel that there must be strict supervision over the recruitmmt of labour, espe cially the recruitment of juveniles in the 166 .
camp to agriculture .
recurrence of the condition . Under the population section you have indicated that there are 70 ecclesiastical marriage officers who have been appointed. Now, this is a point which is causing some concern . Originally a marriage officer was appointed by the Republican Minister of the Interior to solemnize
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No.
MR. GUZANA : I hope he has not been influenced by the
hon. the
Minister for
Agriculture and Forestry who stated in his policy speech that he is going to push afforestation and at a later stage it might
marriages. Now you have the power, Sir, to appoint ecclesiastical marriage officers in the Transkei , but these marriage officers
take preference over agriculture. We want the training in the youth camp to be diversified and the youth who go there must not be delinquents, as these should be sent to a reformatory . Am I not correct in saying that of the two officers that the Department has
the parties to the marriage is not a Transkei citizen then the marriage officer is placed in a difficulty as he has no appointment to
employed, one holds a degree and the other a diploma?
marry the two parties. Now I would suggest (I don't say it is the right solution) but I
appointed by you can only solemnize marriages between Transkei citizens. If one of
would suggest that at the time the ecclesiasTHE CHIEF MINISTER : That is correct .
tical marriage officer is appointed for the Transkei , representations should be made that he should be recognised in the Republic as an ecclesiastical marriage officer. You
MR. GUZANA: Now, can I accuse the hon. the Minister of the Interior of having written up his speech some time last year and never having taken the trouble to bring it pu to date when the facts became available to him? I am concerned over the pay
see, I can imagine the situation where a young man coming from outside the Transkei obtains a special licence here for marriage , dashes out to a minister and the minister says: Oh, no, I cannot marry you two . I think those with sons on the other side of the
that these young ladies are receiving and I am also concerned over the salary that is paid to the 1 senior welfare officer as shown on page 13 of the estimates under Vote 4: Sub-head A. Welfare Officers , fem al e R660 x 60 - R1200. In this particular case
House are beginning to be slightly apprehensive of this situation . (Laughter)
the senior welfare officer holds a degree
your party? They have deserted you.
which took her four years instead of the normal three years to obtain, and you compare her salary with a clerk, grade 2, whose
MR. GUZANA: They have not , Sir. Some of them are perfoming official duties with
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where is
the Minister of Education , if you want to know. Sir, you have mentioned the Pensions
maximum is R1320 and he need only be a matriculant. I suggest that the hon . the Minister of the Interior look into this matter because we do require these welfare officers and our salaries should be sufficiently com-
Bill . I do hope that the Bill that is going to come before the House will give us more or less the formula which will be followed in
petitive . I therefore suggest that you go with hat in hand to the Minister of Finance,
determining the gratuity to be paid. I also suggest that the Land Settlement Bill should
flatter him a bit and you will get a little more for your social workers. (Laughter) I do feel
be given the widest publicity and you should not be the person to decide who are interes-
that we might lose these people if we do not pay them adequately because municipalities outside the Transkei offer quite attractive salaries and we would not like to lose the
ted paties, as the Opposition is also interested in the Bill . You have indicated that you have dealt with a number of licences on page 23, but you have not told us with what result. One would have liked to know whether
services of these people in the Transkei . Everybody is very much concerned with the carelessness with which T.3 . sufferers
political
considerations
have not
tainted
educators to work
your decisions in this respect. (Laughter) Now I join with you , Sir, in congratulating Mr. Midgley on his outstanding services to the people of the Transkei. I think Mr.
in the Transkei - people specially trained in the control and follow-up of patients , or people who have had T.B.
Midgley was really the character and the personality in the Department of the Interior. He was a man of clear intellect, wonderful
regard hospital
themselves and I
after
discharge
wonder if you
consider getting health
from
could not
THE MINISTER OF OF JUSTICE: about the nurses and the clinics?
resources, indefatigable devotion to duty, but never lost sight of the fact that he was
How
dealing with human beings and that his decisions affected the lives of men and
MR . GUZANA : Nurses are tied down to
women and children. I am sorry that he was not able to be here, together with Mrs. Midgley, in the VIP seats when we were
the clinic , but the health educator goes from home to home and teaches the people the hygienic way in which to live , and how to look after themselves in order to prevent a
dealing with this vote, Sir , when he would hear with what high regard he was held by 167 .
the members of the Opposition also . We do hope that his retirement will be filled with pleasurable memories of his services to the
was the difficulties experienced by some of the people in my area.
MR .
T.H.
BUBU:
Mr.
Chairman
and
African, that his work has also made it pos-
hon . members , in his introductory remarks the hon . Minister has mentioned that one of his duties is to keep a watchful eye over the interests , the status, rights and welfare of the individual Transkeian citizen . On hearing that , Mr. Chairman, I felt it would
sible for many of us to believe that the races can work together successfully. May he and his wife have a long and happy period of retirement . We will now move to castigate his deserted Minister of the Interior. Thank you , Mr. Chaim an .
be necessary for me to comment upon what I regard as undermining the rights , interests , welfare and status of those citizens , so what I am going to say is intended to make the hon. Minister's eye keener than ever in watching over the rights and interests
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at
2.30 p.m. of the people of this area. One of the rights that has been conferred on the people of these territories is that of exercising a free and secret vote . If the Transkei is really going to be a truly self-governing state I consider that that right is fundamental to all other rights and I consider that it devolves upon the hon . the Minister of the Interior to see that this right is not in any way violated.
The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was resumed .
MR. Z. CHEMANE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I rise to support the policy speech of this Department, which is more important than all the others. It was my intention first to thank Mr. Midgley for his work, but as the hon . the Leader of the Oppo-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: How can he obviate that among you people?
sition has said much in this respect I will pass on. We congratulate his successor, Mr. Burger, and those who are under him and
MR. BUBU: I think when we are talking about these things we should try and become
we hope he has copied Mr. Midgley's example. We appreciate the difficulty experienced by this Department because of various other
attentive and be prepared to show a capacity for listening. It is only when another man . has put his point of view that it should be possible for another intelligent and responsible man to put questions . Now, Mr. Chairman, in this regard I want to say first of all that, speaking quite sincerely and honestly , I congratulate the Department of the Interior for the information papers
small sections which are under it. First of all there is the labour section . I wish to confine my self especially to the labour side , which is a problem here in the Transkei , and we are aware of the efforts made to relax the influx control regulations .
hear.
which they issued relating to the way in which elections should be carried out. On
MR. CHEMANE: I also want to appeal through this Department to the Republican Government not to pull strings at this stage. It is not that we do not understand that we are not yet on our own feet. I wish to draw
reading those papers one was impressed that the Department as such was doing all it could to see that elections · at least the recent by- elections were carried out in the most proper manner possible . One of the
the attention of this Department to the fact that the old age pensioners are also clamouring for their pensions to be paid monthly. This Department has made promises in regard to lands , and we hope something will be done about land which is owned but for
points that was given prominence was the fact that the vote was to be free and personal and that voting was to be strictly secret; but I think it is right for me , Mr.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS:
Hear,
Chairman, to say that that right was adversely affected during the elections . It does not matter whether this undermining of the right of the man to vote as he likes
which the people have not as yet got title deeds. There is another difficulty which wish to place before this Department and that is the difficulty experienced by the Umzimkulu people to the effect that they have no flag, (Laughter) and the land is not yet zoned. We cannot do otherwise but
was brought about by people on the Opposition side , but it was a very notable feature during the last elections . P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Not in Qaukeni.
place our difficulties before this Department. There is not much I can say because this Department's work has been commended even last year. I hope they have heard our difficulties and that they will communicate with the Republican Government. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has stated Iclearly to this ? House that each and every man's effort should be to see to the progress of the Transkei . All I wanted to add
MR. BUBU: I would like to emphasize the need on the part of the Department to see that when elections are conducted those people who have partisan leanings should , as far as possible , be kept away from it. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Are you talking of polling officers?
168.
MR. BUBU: Whether polling officers or other officers , such as chiefs and headmen . I know for a fact that chiefs and headmen were , by virtue of their position, asked to be present at a polling station (Interjections) and that was to be expected, Mr. Chairman, because they are administrative officers , but I want to say at the same time that their position , which would otherwise have been a sacred position , has been vitiated by the fact that they have now become partisan in the political affairs of the country. (Interjections) THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
Order,
please.
MR.
BUBU:
Sometimes
chiefs
should consider every aspect of the speech so that if there is anything left out in these policies then we can make suggestions. Now when we start throwing stones at the issue , one forgets the important points that should have been raised. In so saying, I am supporting the speech made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. I want to thank and show appreciation for the work done by his Department in every aspect, including the efforts they are making to help the people such as caring for orphans for whom should be made. Perhaps arrangements never been orphans , but have some of us have grown up with their parents . However one who was an orphan would definitely appreciate this step. I also wish to show
and
appreciation for the number of old age pensions paid, and also disability grants and pensions for the blind. I do not know whether there are still people who wish to criticize , because there are some people
headmen owe loyalty to higher and bigger chiefs who have a definite political outlook. The result is that the sub-chiefs and headmen are instructed and threatened by the bigger chief or chiefs to see that their
who are not getting pensions , but those cases are getting attention and it does not mean that what has been achieved should not be appreciated . When adding up the old age and disability grants and the blind pensions , the number has increased and
political aspirations are given undue prominence. (Interjections) THE MINISTER Where was that done?
OF
AGRICULTURE :
it is approximately 62,808 . Coming to the question of licences this Department has done some work there , because before it was difficult even to obtain a licence. The
MR . BUBU: I must therefore state categorically that the rights of the citizens of the Transkei are as a result undermined, and I would like the hon. Minister to assume it as one of his most important responsibilities to see that when elections take
number of licences has been analysed in the speech . That is one of the steps taken by the Department of the Interior so that those who can afford to run businesses
place, all possible political protagonists are removed. (Interjections) I must also mention , Mr. Chairman, that I consider
should get licences . On the question of title deeds , before there used to be a great deal of delay when one wanted a title deed, but today we have the se on our doorstep and everything is done here at home. Coming to the question raised by the hon. Mr. H.H. Bubu, alleging that the chiefs force people to vote for certain candidates , remember that the chief is the eye of his followers and the chief leads his people and knows what is right for his people . People who listen to their chief will definitely follow their chief, because that chief will not lead them astray. A chief never forces anybody but will always advise them. I consider this to be a good thing. It shows that what is required is that people should not retire from their chiefs . As I have said , Mr. Chairman , I only ask that we should add those
(and I consider with the support of many people in my area) that the low poll in the Qaukeni area was due to this influence and intimidation. (Interjections)
THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
please. MR . BUBU: Another thing , Mr. Chairman, as use was made of people from as far away as Natal to assist in maintaining order and smoothness of operation at polling stations , I observed several times that the members of the police force were drawn from these other areas . Some of them (I cannot claim all) were too ignorant to be able to discharge their functions and duties intelligently and efficiently . Some of them could not even read when you drew their attention to what was written regarding the regulations , and I can say I imagine that it was easily possible for the people at the poll to discover that these people were ignorant and advantage of that was taken.
things which are not in the policy speech . Besides that we welcome the policy speech .
MR .
L.T.
MAZWI :
Mr.
Chaimman and
hon. members , it is a pity that an important policy speech of this nature should be handled by people who have no understanding. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture remarked yesterday that some people's hair had turned grey because the grey matter had leaked out of their heads , but he has a few people like that on his side. (Laughter) I am speaking about the freedom of the voter to select and vote for a candidate of
MR. H.H. NOLUTSHUNGU: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , when a child is given something by his father and fails to thank him he is never considered well disciplined. I wish to thank my chiefs here for keeping quiet and not making a noise . When we deal with policy speeches such as education , agriculture and this one now before us , we
his own choice. The chief must not usurp the vote as the chiefs have been doing. It 169.
does
not
matter
which
side
the
chief
bited. They must be given a chance , and therefore I side with the speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior.
supports . To go further, what interests me most in this speech is the welfare section of this Department, but before I say much about that I will say a few words about the deferred pay interest fund. Our view on this side of the House is that this money should not be used for anything other than helping the workers in the mines and assisting their families in their own welfare . It should be known that several people who have miners' phthisis suffer a long time. and when they die the pension that they received has already been used up, sometimes leaving very young members of the family. It would appear to me that this money ought to be used to support those children . We are aware also that the wages of the miners are very low and most of them wish to educate their children. The interest from
MR. B.S. hon. members , the Minister received some of the House
RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and the policy speech of the hon . of the Interior has always warm welcome from this side for the information of these
newcomers who have just come to the Assembly. Much has been said on the subject of elections. We are not going to repeat that except that we wish to bring what has not been mentioned . When the Republican Government set up the Transkei Government , among other things chiefs , and chiefs in particular , were warned by the responsible Government that probably was aware of their incapableness of responsibility . One would have expected our chiefs to have realised that with the greatest of care , but if ever the Transkei Government may be dissolved I am almost certain the culprits will be the chiefs who have become political
the deferred pay fund ought to be used to help educate these children in the form of scholarships. There is a small matter which disturbs me in the address of the hon. Minister. Last year he made several promises. He talked about the physically handicapped people , some old, others in their youth , but he made no mention of that in his address today. True enough, he mentions children's homes and reformatories and it would have been appreciated if he had made reference to those disabled people whom he spoke about last year. Further , I do not find anything with regard to medical services and technicians whose duty it would be to look after the welfare of such children. One member on this side of the House referred to youth camps and reformatories . We wish the hon. Minister would note that youth camps and reformatories are two different things . A reformatory is meant for children who break the law and are delinquents , and who would otherwise be kept in prison if they were older. A youth camp is a place for all children , especially children coming from poor homes where they are compelled to seek work, whereas they should be in the classroom. Such a child is in danger of being carried away in the stream of delinquents and he should be taken to a youth camp to be given his training in activities which would be useful to him in after life . In other words , if we mix up children who should be in youth camps with those who should be in a reformatory we would be running the risk of turning all our juveniles into de-
figures in the Transkei. We do not say that our hon. chiefs must not support their political aspirations . We do not say that. They are entitled and we would be cowards if we felt they should not do that, but it is certainly a grievous fault and an evil for some of them, whether on this side or that side , to take advantage of their position which they enjoy by right of birth to bring corruption into the Transkei. The right I enjoy as a citizen , as one member said, cannot be tampered with. We do not care if a person be above the paramount chief, we must be certain that the right of the lowest person is equal to that of the paramount chief. (Interjections) Yes, you had better take note . We do not mind them influencing people but the right they have of birth should not be above that of the right of citizenship . You had better take note of that. Now, this Department is doing its best to meet the unfortunate situation it has accepted of trying to find work for the workers in the Republic, We hope this Department will not cease in making attempts that the people of the Transkei should find work. It is clear beyond doubt to anybody in this House that the Transkei cannot employ one quarter of its citizens but in getting our people jobs this Department must not appear to be a recruiting agent for the farmers in the Republic . We would like to know next time , out of the bulk
linquents. CHIEF M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will not be lengthy in my speech, but I want to tell the Assembly that the hon. Mr. Bubu was recruiting there in Eastern Pondoland . He wanted people to vote for whom he wanted. If he did not
of these people how many are in the farms , how many are in decent jobs instead of just being told how many thousand people are in jobs in the Republic . I happened to hear one of the chiefs that side actually saying to one of the magistrates that our people say Thank-you for the work on the farms. Now, we are very much concemed because
succeed he should not blame anybody because he was going by night and he was going about telling people to vote for whom he wanted, but he did not succeed . He is now crying bitter tears . Again, everybody there in Eastern Pondoland should be given the chance to go the way he likes . He made propaganda there but there are no taboos
the general election is coming next year and we have seen in these last three byelections what the Government, in particular, does in spite of the good literature they send out. We are not blind to what is taking place in the emergent states like Lesotho
there at all. Now they are in a state of barbarism and they say they have been prohi-
170.
system. Before his status was raised by the Government he was headman of his administrative area for over 40 years . He has served the Government and he has also served his
and Swaziland, but it would be sad if in the Transkei we have a situation such as they have in Lesotho particularly . So in this section of the Department let it not be on paper - let it be on the characteristic devel-
tribe . Today the whole of Tembul and mourns the death of this very important chief among the Tembus , but it is not only the Tembus who have lost through his death , but the Transkei as a whole has lost, because he was
opment of the people of the Transkei , irrespective of whether chiefs or not, because the good name of the Transkei comes from its citizens. The chief becomes great if his people are good. You can get bad yeast anywhere . We do not fear these chiefs .
a citizen of the Transkei. Although he used never to speak in the Assembly here he did express his views whenever a decision was arrived at. As you are no doubt aware, the late chief was one of the senior members
Don't think we are saying this because we fear you . We are very good at campaigning and nearly 90 per cent of the Transkei is against you · don't you know that? But we really want to emphasize on both sides of the House that our chiefs must realise
of the Assembly whose views should command the respect of all the members of the Assembly. I move an unopposed motion that a letter of condolence be sent to his relatives , expressing the regret of his colleagues. The letter will be written by the Clerk of the Assembly. The funeral takes place. at 11 a.m. on Saturday, 21st May, at his home in the Tabase area.
that much depends on what they do in these things. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, owing to the importance of this vote and it being a Friday, I move that we adjourn until Monday.
GUZANA:
MR . K.M. Chairman .
I
second ,
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we on this side of the House
Mr.
are sorely grieved by the rather startling news of the sudden death of Chief Johnson Jumba. When we heard that he was in hos-
Agreed to.
pital we thought his illness was only a temporary one and his death has come as shock therefore . We feel sorely grieved that he has departed from this world . We know that his tribe grieves the loss , and also the chiefs and the Paramount Chief of Tembuland. It gives us satisfaction to know that his continuous service of over 40 years as a headman was crowned with the honour of
The debate was adjourned. House Resumed
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 15th May, 1967.
chieftainship in 1958 , and we are glad that he was associated with us here in the first Legislative Assembly of the Transkei . He
MONDAY, 15TH MAY, 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
was a quiet and unassuming man, not given to speaking at all, but one could say quite. honestly that he took an interest in the Affairs of the Assembly and we think that his long life has been well spent in the service of the Tembus . On behalf of this side of the House I wish to associate our-
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
selves with the unopposed motion of sympathy , and may his soul rest in peace .
OBITUARY. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , it is with deep regret that I have to announce to the Assembly that on Friday night Chief Johnson Jumba, a member of the Assembly, passed away. The late Chief Johnson had
The motion was carried, the members standing as a mark of respect. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
been a member of the Assembly since 1964 and represented the Dalindyebo region. The House will remember that a few days ago I announced that the late Chief was confined
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I move that this House resolve itself into committee in order to consider the Appropriation Bill.
in hospital suffering from chest trouble . For the benefit of those members of the House THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I second. who may perhaps not know, the late Chief Jumba was a younger brother of Ngubencuka and therefore he is a descendant of the
Agreed to .
Paramount Chief of the Tembus , namely , Chief Ndaba. From the days of his grandfather they have been headmen of the administrative area of Tabase. He is one of
House in Committee The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior , was resumed.
those chiefs whose status was put in order at the inception of the Territorial Authority
CHIEF M. MSINGAPANTSI : Mr. Chair-
171.
man and hon. members , it is a pleasure to me that I should be in this Parliament this year, so that I can attack the Opposition side as usual. (Laughter) I would like to refer to page 3 of the policy speech. I am pleased with the report made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. People who do not understand the contents of the paragraph on the elections want the elections to be conducted in the manner they wish. They criticize that people did not go to the polls in the way they should. They say that the reason was that people did not have identity books. What do they mean by that? It is because the Opposition members preached to the people that they should not take their identity books , especially the members from Johannesburg. Now when they discovered that the elections are at hand they force these people to get these identity books . We went as far as Johannesburg and told the people that they should avail themselves of identity books, and those who did not comply should be arrested . As a result, when the elections were on they did not go to the polls to vote . You also went there and distributed your pamphlets , but that did not help. I wish to thank the hon . the Minister of the Interior for his fine report. (Interjections) You are just mumbling here. The salaries of the people have been raised and that did not happen before . Even now you are barking and saying that even the Chief Minister's salary should be reduced, and the other Ministers' as well. What do you say about the increase in salary of the headmen? Do you see the increases in teachers' salaries , and have you seen....
the Interior, I find that each and every one has a part in the life of the people as a whole. The hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry said in his speech that I appear to be one who is worried about the question of malnutrition. He said so rightly too , and I will never be happy until the matter is settled . Where he mistook me was when he said I asked him to get a spade and go and dig the people's gardens , whereas my aim was to refer to every home so that the chiefs and headmen could go and influence the people to do this . I am of opinion that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of the Interior could work hand in hand on this question of malnutrition, because the Minister of the Interior could communicate with the Republican Government for help in getting officers to work among our people. We do need health educators in our villages . Those people are the ones who will really assist to fight against malnutrition. With the assistance of those health educators and the Minister of Agriculture , it would be easy and possible for this to be done. Health educators are very important. You will remember the difficulty in the training of doctors . It takes about seven to ten years before a doctor can stand on his own feet and help his people, whereas health educators can be trained in a year or two and be ready to go and help the people. You should know that the worst enemy of mankind is the fly, and yet amongst our people there are those who believe that it is "umthakathi " which kills people . They should be taught that the worst witch is the fly. There is one thing which is very important and that is to tell people things in a way which they can understand. That is what we are pressing for · to have health educators and clinics
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, you must confine your self to this vote. CHIEF MSINGAPANTSI: Mr. Chairman , I was just making examples as reflected in this policy speech. Here is another subject I should like to be discussed ·
as well. It will be noted that here in the Transkei there is more TB than in any other
there are boys roaming about the villages and it is a good thing to have the se reformatories. It is a necessity to have such good schools to train these boys. That will stop these house-breakers , and as soon as these boys have been taken to school everyone will rest in peace. I would be pleased if more of these schools could be established. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister for the allocation of more money for old age and disability grants . Where do the people think this money comes from? It comes from the Government and you say you do not want this Government. I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his fine report which will enable us to tell the electorate
country. Don't you think it is wise that greater efforts should be made to counteract this disease? You will remember that last year I suggested to the hon . the Minister of the Interior that some effort should be made to see that TB patients should find work within the Transkei . I even went further and mentioned that he (the Minister of the Interior) is the link between the employers and the employees . In places like schools , hospitals and so on first preference should be given to TB patients . That will assist in some way, but not altogether. It will be noted that when the TB patients are in hospital they improve in health, but as soon as they get home even if they are still getting medicines they deteriorate . The cause of that is the fact
what is being done so that these men can stop barking. They have no constitution and they are trying to fight against our constitution which is genuine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman .
that the food they eat is not nourishing enough. It boils down to the point that you should work hand in hand with the hon. the
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to ask you to prolong my time for this speech I am going to make . I know I am entitled to speak twice , but I would like to speak once and for all. When I consider things that are discussed in the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of
Minister of Agriculture. I will pass on to another aspect. There is a difficulty which we experience when we ask for school sites. It so happens that we ask for a school site as a committee. The tribal authority agrees and we go to the magistrate and the magis172,
trate says he has nothing to do with it and we should go to the Education Department. We do that and the Education Department refers us back to the magistrate . That all takes rather a long time. MR.
E. MHLAHLO : Mr.
Minister does not give us statistics of the people who were engaged in these works . Further, he does not indicate whether there were women among these people , nor do I find mention of the type of work which would have been suitable for women , but
Chairman and
our previous experience and our complaint is that we have always felt women should not be employed in repair work on the roads. I want to say to the whole House that this feature is a disgrace to all the Bantu people of the Transkei . We did not have this even
hon. members , in support of the hon. the Minister of the Interior and in thanking him, I shall confine myself to youth camps or reformatories.
Another
speaker in the
Opposition tried to show that this word does not mean what it seems to mean. It
under the Republican Govemment and it is a very disgraseful feature of this Govern-
shows that he is confused in his ideas , but we forgive people who always confuse
ment. On page 6 the hon. Minister says the relief work is merely a temporary measure to be introduced only at times of extreme adversity and because of its high cost and detraction from the principle of self-help is to be avoided whenever possible. I would not have included the phrase " detraction
things.
the
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Don't you know difference between reformatories and
youth camps?
from the principle of self-help" in this case because these people do not receive any relief gratis . We notice one thing and that is that they were employed at a rate which, in our experience , is less than the usual
MR. MHLAHLO : The paper " Ilanga lase Natal' has already explained that there are people who are trying to wreck the Government . We appreciate these schools because the aim and object of constructing them is to mould our youth. It is a method of trying to prevent " tsotsism " . I have seen youths in Kokstad before the circuit court. There were two little girls of 13 and 14 and they were charged with stealing. I felt then the necessity for these schools when I saw those children . Last week in Umtata
rate of employment. These people worked as usual and as any other labourer, but their rate of pay was 25 cents a day · that is , the women who were employed - as against 35 cents which is the usual starting rate of pay for women . Why? The Government should be careful not to create situations where
three boys were convicted in the circuit court and sentenced to six lashes and it came to my mind that if these schools had existed these children would not have been in trouble . In Matatiele there was a woman who clamoured for such schools because she had an impossible child , and after he had been to one of those schools there was a change in his character. We know for a fact that in every home there are parents who will be pleased to have these schools , especially where the mother is a widow. The whole world will be pleased to hear about these schools . This policy speech has said much about the rehabili-
women are used as public labourers . Further , I also want to comment on the lack of
tation of children's characters . People do not want rehabilitation of their homes or
African then , if 40 per cent of the nation is unemployed? I think that figure is even more because the hon . Minister was not taking the women into account, but only the men . How can the Transkei improve if it is economically hampered? Again , I wonder if the hon. Minister concemed has ever looked
progress resulting in poverty in the Transkei , while the Republican Government is making a wild cry about the shortage of labour in the Republic and is doing all it can to import labour from overseas because of the rotten system of job reservation. Taking into consideration the statistics given here , you will find that 40 per cent of the Transkeian labour potential is unemployed today. You must remember that it is not only the Transkei that suffers so. Other provinces and regions are suffering too. What is the future development of the
of their lands and soil . They do not want their stock to be improved , but we all agree that we should have such schools although we do not want to see our land being reclaimed. I will leave that point now. We appreciate the fact that the hon. the Minister of the Interior has arranged with the Holy Cross Convent that the school will be taken over for a training institution for the Bantu people . (Interjections) We know for a fact
closely into the working of the labour bureaux in the Transkei? I think even without going very far , judging from the rate of unemployment, and the number of people registered and the number of people recruited it naturally means that there must be a clamouring of all the workers to get first
that if there are people who are not cared for properly there is a place where they will be looked after properly. We appreciate
hon. members , I wish to add a few remarks today to the debate . Under the heading
preference. In my district I know of people who registered in June last year and who are still unemployed now because they are not in a position to " nyoba " to the clerks concerned. (Interjections) So what has happened as a result of this system is that the clerks employed in these bureaux are
"Relief of Distress" there is something which worries me . First of all , the hon.
inclined to accept bribes and I think this needs investigation .
what the hon. Minister has done in sending people to inspect the school.
MR.
L.T.
MAZWI :
Mr.
Chairman and
173.
MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand in support of this policy speech. I will not be long in speaking . I have been listening to these walking radio-
infomation was only made available on that day. It was noted that the offices closed daily at 4.30 p.m. even during the elections and the officers did not work on the Satur-
grams but I do not know where they are getting to. (Laughter) I wish to praise the hon . the Minister of the Interior for what he has done in regard to relief work . At times people speak on matters they know nothing about. I am sure many of them do not know anything about this relief work because they have never seen it. We who have been under it know what it is . I have
days during that time. It is evident that the Government did not place much importance on so important a matter in the lives of the people of the Transkei . One would have thought that the Government would have made it possible for work to continue even on Sunday when they were aware that there was great need to see this thing through . If three vacancies require a whole week, it is obvious it would be very much longer
been listening to the criticism about women being employed. I do not know where they expect these women to find food. The Government was trying to see that they could earn some money to feed and maintain their families . The idea was not to give them large salaries, but to see that every man got something . A lot has been said about these youth camps and I wish to draw the attention of my colleagues on the right to the fact that some of their children should be in these camps and I would like to be
in a general election . We wish that people would not be made suspicious that things are done which ought not to be done during these elections . The hon . Minister also points out the increase in the number of people who have found employment through the labour bureaux and he puts the figure at 23,601 for 1966. In 1963 he said it was only 27 per cent, and yet the Government side constantly points out that influx control and waited for the Transkei to stand apart from the Republican Government, and they applied influx control to the people of the Transkei so that they would have to go under contract in order to get employment. In other words, therefore , the Department of the Interior has not assisted people to find employment because before the advent of
in charge of them. (Laughter) We wish to thank the Department for raising this R75,000. The position was bad, hon. members. It was particularly bad this side and the Government has helped us by making this donation. I will pass on to the question of welfare officers . I want to praise the hon. Revd. Rajuili for his speech on this subject. What is really wanted is not so much criticism, as to get advice. Many
this Government the number of people finding employment outside the Transkei was very much higher than it is. If he can possibly do so, we would request the hon . Minister
people will just talk without actually trying to assist or to find a way our. We wish to thank the hon. Minister in regard to the provision of welfare officers and I would like to add that these officers should be distributed throughout all the districts .
to give us the exact number of people turned out of the work centres . This means that, as the Department of Bantu Administration and Development points out that 5 per cent of the people will be sent home to the Transkei annually, the people whom the Department of the Interior thinks it is finding employment for under contract are really people who were previously employed outside the Transkei but who were retumed home as a re-
Unfortunately those who are already employed cannot cover the whole area. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister for the idea of having institutions where children are cared for. It has been in or minds , but we did not know how we could get such a
sult ofthe influx control regulations . The hon. Minister further feels that it is to the credit
school, judging from what was happening outside. One is inclined to blame the parents , but children of today seem to have got beyond the stage of being disciplined. In any case, even if you try to train children in the home there is a powerful school in the streets whose influence is more powerful than the influence of the home. Perhaps the position will now improve.
of his Department that so many people have been granted recruiting licences , pointing out that it had never been an important feature in the Transkei before the advent of this Government, but today to become a recruiting agent seems to be an important occupation . It is because today people must seek work under contract . Our children used to go and look for employment in Durban without being under contract. There were no recruiting agents at that time .
MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish the hon . the Minister of the Interior would tell us in his reply why there was such a delay in the results of
Today, because I, a Transkeian , am still under the Republican Government , my son cannot go and seek work as he wishes in
the by-elections . There were only three vacancies , but the results took a whole
the Republic. I do not know what takes place in places other than the Transkei but I know that in the Transkei , before it was a country under separate development,
week before they were published. On the 17th of this month , on coming here , I passed the office of our local magistrate hoping to find out the outcome of the elections , but the magistrate replied that no word had come, although they had finished counting the previous Friday . On my arrival on the Tuesday I discovered that even here the
things were not as they are today. CHIEFTAINESS N. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior. One speaker mentioned TB 174.
in the Transkei and he said that after these people had been discharged from the hospital their health deteriorated because of insufficiently nourishing food at home . It will be noticed that TB is prevalent mainly among the red-blanketed people , although it is also found among the civilised groups .
known things of this nature to happen on several occassions , where relatives of a member are placed in these positions and this makes it evident that some of these people who are promoted to senior positions are members of the Sons of the Transkei . (Interjections) We ask the hon. Minister to take note of this . To pass on to disability grants , you will remember that in the early years of this Government we advocated that remuneration given to people who have been disabled on the mines should be paid to them in a lump sum , instead of in monthly or quarterly instalments . It has been noticed that in certain cases the person who is receiving this disability pension only gets it once or twice and then if he dies his
People are lazy to work and we who are educated should make it our duty to teach them how to grow vegetables . You find, however, that in many of the villages the civilised people do not assist the more backward . They do not even teach them how to cook. The only thing that concerns them is to be hero-worshipped by the uncivilized people. We should teach the people to grow vegetables and to cook them properly. We have organisations such as the Zenzele . Ever since this Assembly opened I have listened to some of the members of
family is
destitute. We would that they should be given this lump sum so that they can invest it in such a way that the interest will accrue to them. When we discussed
the Opposition criticizing the Government whenever it tries to do something to assist
this last the hon . Minister said he would take it to heart and see that it was carried out, but this has not been done . Last year I directed a question to the Minister on old age pensions, asking for an explanation as to the qualifications required for people
the people . You will find that the wives of the Opposition members do not want to work hand in hand with the wives of the TNIP members . (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: DEPUTY THE Order, please .
to apply for these pensions . There is what is known as a " means test" . I tried to show
CHIEFTAINESS SIGCAU: I should be justified in accusing the DP men of being responsible for not allowing their wives to join with the TNIP wives in helping the Bantu people . Referring to old age pensions , I wish to thank our hon. Minister of the
last year that if a person has a couple of COWS and a little property of a certain amount, that is used as a reason to make it impossible for people to receive the old age pension. We were assured last
Interior for assisting his people and I wish
year, however, that possession of a couple of head of cattle or of some property would not be a hindrance to anyone receiving
to say that we are expecting more than he has already done. It so happens that some of the applications come through in June and others in September, and those who apply in September are attended to while those who applied in June have not yet been attended to. That should be rectified . With those words I support the hon . Minister.
an old age pension . He has today told us that it is only a person who has sufficient stock and gets a good harvest or a fair quantity of milk to sell from his cows who would not be eligible for this pension . We want the hon. Minister to know that that is
speech of the
not the case, but very often a couple of head of cattle or a plot which is not productive is usually used as a means to make it impossible for a person to get the old age pension. It is known that people who were first allowed this old age pension have now been told that because they have a couple of cattle and so on , they cannot continue to receive this pension . We want the hon. Minister to see to it that an investigation is carried out in this respect as these are things which happen among the people of the Transkei . Mr. Minister, I have spoken. very well today , and I hope you are quite happy .
MR . 0.0. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it is a privilege for me to speak immediately after the hon . lady member of this House . I hope the speakers on the other side will be restrained because of my speaking immediately after speaker. (Interjections) THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
a lady Order,
please. MR. MPONDO: I would appeal to the lady not to fear what I am going to say and I appeal further to the hon. Minister to be attentive to what I am going to say. There is dissatisfaction and suspicion among the members of the civil service in your Department. It often happens , especially among the senior and well qualified members of the staff of your Department, that when there is a rise in the scales of pay you very often take a junior member and place him on a higher notch than the one with experience . You often find that such officers have no knowledge and experience of the work entrusted to them. That creates an unpleasant and unco-operative attitude among the members of the staff. I have
CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of the Interior. I give him full support in all he has mentioned. Among the speakers on the Opposition side the first speaker referred to young men who are forced to take labour contracts even before they are of age. He said that if the parents go to the recruiting office with proof of the children's age they find it difficult to get those children back again. It is known that whoever undertakes
175.
this labour contract does so under the terms
many residents who have not been registered as voters . I myself have taken people in to register and the clerks promised they would attend to it, but the people have come back and said they were not registered. I will continue to do that and find out whether
specified in his reference book. It is indicated there when he shall pay his first tax, and until that has been done such an individual cannot be employed . Further, before a person is recruited under a labour contract they are first medically examined. Another point raised was in regard to TB patients . One of the speakers said they should be given preferential treatment with regard to employment. I think a medical
such people have been registered as voters . Others who were registered as voters found on the 12th April when they went to vote that their names were not on the roll . They were given tendered voting papers as though they had actually voted, when in fact they did not vote. In these by- elections therefore it is evident that you did not carry out your
certificate ought to be procured before such an individual is given employment, because nobody should be employed unless he is in good health. I think that is being done at present according to the law of the country. I shall not say much in regard to welfare officers because when we were discussing the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture we spoke a great deal about this . It was mentioned when we were discussing home gardens which we feel would be a help in building up the health of the people. Even the womenfolk would find they are gaining weight by eating these. vegetables . This point was fully debated and I shall not go over it again . I would like to say a word about influx control . We have discussed it so much and we are not sure even now to which department influx control belongs . We ought to refer to it therefore as just something which
duty as a Minister. Because we have expressed our opinion favourably with regard to your policy speeches in the past, it has evidently made you rest on your laurels . In the Dal indyebo region only 34 per cent of the voters did register their votes. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Where were the others? MR . MAJIJA: Can you ever say that a person who looks after a herd of 100 sheep and only brings home 34 has done his work satisfactorily? At Qaukeni , too , only 37 per cent voted , evidence that you have not done your duty . Possibly people who did not register their votes would have voted for a member on the Government side , but failed to do so because you did not do your duty. I shall not refer to the influx control regulations because we have constantly moved in this House for the relaxation of
must be discussed by this House . Much has been said to the effect that this is a law of the Republic of South Africa and it is found everywhere within the Republic and even in territories outside the Republic . We constantly hear of members of other governments discussing this question of influx control with Mr. Vorster, the Prime Minister of the Republic. If you Opposition members feel your people of the Transkei are being affected unfavourably by this regulation , you are very much mistaken .
influx control . You keep on telling the people to come back to the Transkei because there is employment for them. Because there is this impending election you tell the people that influx control will be relaxed , merely in order to catch votes . I may say that the people are not the fools you think they are. I am sure that you will not get the votes to get you back into Parliament in 1968. (Interjections) Because our policy. is different from yours , we tell the people that the whole of the Republic belongs to
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION .
The
Assembly
them , while you tell them that only the Transkei belongs to them. The late Dr. Verwoerd said in this House that the Europeans in the Transkei were having the better part of the Transkei revenue and he went to the Republican Parliament and told them that he wants the Transkei for the Transkei-
resumed at 2.15 p.m.
The debate on Vote 4 , Department of the Interior, was resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon . Mr. L. Z. Majija to move his amendment.
an people . He said that if they accept the concept of Bantu stan they would be enslaved for ever.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chaimman and hon . members , I rise to move:
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that nonsense? Can you quote that?
"That Vote 4 be reduced by a sum of R3,200 in respect of the Minister's salary ."
area
MR. MAJIJA: should not
Further, they said this be zoned because you
a letter from a person in Carletonville who states that he does not even know that
accepted this Bantu stan idea. I will now refer to the old age pension scheme. The hon. the Minister of the Interior promised in this House that if the tribal authorities certified that a person is eligible for old
there is such a thing as the registration of voters . Even in the Transkei there are
age pension , no magistrate would make it impossible for him to be enrolled for a
First of all , I would like to point out that the hon . Minister has not carried out the duties entrusted to him. I have on hand
176 .
pension. We told the people what you had said and we discovered afterwards that you had deceived us. Some of those who had been receiving the old age pension either find that their pension is reduced or withdrawn entirely.
plaints from the people in the outside areas to the effect that the old age pension has been withdrawn . Some of them even go so far as to say that the old age pension was given to them by the Republican Government , but has now been withdrawn by the Matanzima Government . It becomes quite plain that there will be misunderstanding between the chiefs on the one side and the people on the other , for the chief is satisfied that the person is eligible for the pension and the magistrate turns it down . My amendment stating that Vote E.10 should be decreased by R5000 and that amount added to Vote
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to oppose the amendment moved by the last speaker. He has expressed himself fully and stated that the late Dr. Verwoerd expressed certain opinions. I stand to say that what he said is not true . We were here to listen to the late Dr. Verwoerd and did not merely get his statement through the medium of the papers . As far as his statement in the
E.12 was to make it possible for these old people to be repaid their old age pensions. I have asked the Assembly therefore to agree to have all those people replaced on the list of old age pensioners , for the reasons
Republican Parliament goes he told us openly it was only for the White people . He specifically indicated that our Parliament was for the Transkei only . (Interjections) All who are in opposition to the Constitution keep on throwing out interjections and I ask them to be silent so that they can hear well what I say to them. In this Parliament
why the Republican Government decided to give them that pension are the same today. They are not younger now than they were when they first got the pension. The item which I suggest should be reduced is that which the hon. Minister proposed to use to put up boundaries , and in doing so he is contradicting the custom of the Bantu
our policy is that of separate development. Our own people will be paid their pensions according to the rules of that pension scheme . You will see , the children will be thrashed according to their sins . We who
people in spite of the fact that their policy is that we should go back to the customs and traditions of the Bantu people . The boundaries between the different tribes were natural boundaries such as rivers and so
accept the separate development scheme have started on the scheme in our areas.
on , and that is what we want. The money which would be spent in putting up the se boundaries would be better spent in paying
(Interjections) Order,
these old age pensions . The vote allocated to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture for
CHIEF MOSHESH : All the children who
putting up fences is quite enough . I am quite certain that the Opposition has discussed fully and debated every aspect of
THE please.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
the policy speech of the Minister of the Interior. Our old people at home are starving. May we not come to an agreement that they should be given this old age pension. I
throw stones at people's cars will be punished. I do not know whether there are members representing those areas where such things. happen. Much has been said about the elections and about the registration of voters in the electoral areas . The elections are carried out according to the regulations governing such things in the Transkei . I am trying to make it very clear to the members of the Opposition so that they will understand exactly what we are about. I would like them to know that we are the repre-
am quite sure expressed in people , and in we would all
that this complaint has been the whole Transkei by the Qaukeni as well . I wish that be as one in regard to the
reduction of this particular item. I shall not repeat what has been said by other people. I move that the vote be reduced by R5000 · not R500 as it is recorded , so that there will be sufficient money to pay
sentatives of the people and what they are saying is not what the people asked them . to express . It is for that reason that there are complaints about certain areas , some of which are outside the Transkei. Mr. Chair-
back the pensions which have been withdrawn from these old people. MR . W. MADIKIZELA: amendment, Mr. Chairman.
I
second the
man, I do not want to waste your time and I will give an opportunity to the Opposition . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , the last speaker has already said that the members have exhausted themselves . I
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the hon . Mr. H.H. Zibi to move his amendment.
agree and I therefore call upon the Minister to reply.
MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to move my amendment as set down. Here are my reasons : I would like to see the truth as it is . I am quite sure all the members in this House , representatives as well as chiefs , have heard com-
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not think this is correct procedure , because in any case if a matter has been moved and seconded the seconder is entitled to speak to it . I must also say
177 .
Interior?
that it was imegular that an amendment which was moved and to which the mover spoke , and there was a seconder , that that seconder was not allowed to speak to that amendment before another amendment was brought before the House . I feel this is most irregular indeed and I think we must follow procedure , no matter how much we are in a hurry to get to the end of the debate .
MR. MADIKIZELA: We notice that the present Government is keeping this land and is not giving it over to the Transkei people . Now the hon . Minister should recollect ever since he took over four years ago how much land has been given to the people and how many title deeds have been given . The land in question is the same land that they owned during the days of the Republican Government. More land has been bought and added . Now we notice that the Transkei Government is adding more land in order to grow more forests and also
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , I think I made it clear that the last speaker on this side said they had exhausted themselves , and if they had exhausted themselves there is no need for us to go on repeating things . In any event I will allow only one speaker and after that the Minister may reply.
more land to plant fruit trees , sugar , coffee and tea. When will this Government go further so that people will gain more ? That is why you see some people leaving the Transkei and going to the Republic to get employment. They cannot do anything with their land. There is only one place where they can work now and that is on the fencing staff.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: There are two seconders. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to say something or not? MR. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, our aim is to satisfy our people.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is not a Madikizela affair .
MR . GUZANA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the seconder to the first amendment was the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and that is the man who should
MR . MADIKIZELA : Now they are the very chiefs who are under the Department of the Interior . They have been given various duties and more duties are going to be added to them. They have civil jurisdiction, they deal with land matters and
be given the opportunity to speak, as the seconder to the first amendment. Then there should be the seconder to the second amendment.
they are doing work that belongs to the police . They even deal with the roads and they are also politicians . Where is the money coming from to pay for all this extra work? The Ministers have had an increase of R800 a year. Even those under them have had an increase of several rand,
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon . member , I said we are going to de al with this simultaneously so it does not matter.
whereas these chiefs who are supposed to be rulers have not had any increase whatsoever. Some of them feel , therefore , that they must accept bribery . (Interjections) Now the present Government is encouraging that. It appears that this Government expects people to work without getting any pay. The Government has bought stores which used to belong to the Europeans and the BIC is buying these stores . Nobody knows whether this BIC is composed of White or Black people . Is it that they are proposing that we buy direct from the people who owned these stores , because the contracts which would be assisting people here are not helping them? Even the lands are not helping them . One does not see why these stores should be sold to the BIC. The outside world is not aware of what is taking place . They have been given fine cars to go about and see these people . What happens is that they do not go back to the people and explain these things to them . These cars get damaged now as though they are being driven by drunkards . (Laughter) One does not see
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , that is wrong. You cannot have two amendments being discussed that happen?
simultaneously . How can
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : In any event I have asked that hon. member to speak on the amendment he supported. (Interjections) I am the Chairman . There is only one chairman . Carry on.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I think that hon. member made a nasty statement. He said we have the wrong Chairman . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon . member withdraw his remarks? MR . L.A. LUWACA: I beg to withdraw, Mr. Chairman . MR .
W.
MADIKIZELA:
Mr.
Chairman
and hon. members , the Transkeian people have been given certain land which they are to rule and therewith they must be satisfied . That land must be well used so that we can get the best out of it.
how far this Government is going. People have to be satisfied from the very word "Go" with everything.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are we on agriculture , or on the vote of the
CHIEF D.D.P. 178 .
NDAMASE : Mr. Chair-
man and hon. members , I will comment first on the subject of employment. I think this Department has done well because it has given us a report. Most of the departments have failed to do this . However, I also feel that this Department has failed , seeing that the wages of the people in their employ are still very low. It is the duty of the Department to see that each employee gets a good minimum wage , but it has not done so. It has long been suggested that a wage board should be formed to see to the wages , but this has not been done . The minimum wage in the Transkei is 50 cents per day for a male, whereas other employers pay 30 cents . Now we do not find that any
(Interjections) Even those who are working get low salaries.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : ì shall ask the hon. Minister please to reply. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , first of all I wish to congratulate the hon. Mr. 0.0 . Mpondo for the gentlemanlike way in which he spoke the other day. I only wish to say that in future if he wishes to say anything he should make a correct statement and not put in things which are not true . I never at any stage said that the silicosis awards were going to be given to recipients in a lump sum.
attempt has been made to increase this minimum wage . Coming to influx control , this is what happens: It is gradually making slaves of people . Why do I say this ? You get some people being recruited and going out to work in the Republic . I often hear in these local influx control offices that
MR . C. DIKO: But we asked for them to get it in a lump sum.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : He said I promised to do that, and I did not. To go on to what I said last year, I said it is true that these amounts are paid
if one goes to work one must sign a contract for six months . However , I feel one should take a contract of a month and if one is satisfied after that one can continue , a but where the slavery comes in is this man goes to work in a dairy in Cape Town as a driver delivering milk . Say he finds
out bi-monthly but the position is that these moneys are kept by us in trust for these people . There are some people who, if they were given the se amounts in a lump sum , would squander their money so that eventually they would be a burden on the State . (Interjections) I went further to say that there are those reasonable people who , when they want to draw these amounts ,
a rich man who has recently lost his driver. This rich man says he wants a driver and offers him R20 a week , whereas he was only getting R10 a month delivering milk. Now, if he wants to end that contract in order to get the better job , what happens ? The influx control regulations require this man to go back home , be registered again. and return all the way to Cape Town . Then the magistrate must authorise it so that he gets this job at R20 a week. (Interjections) Here is another thing. When we refer to
want them for some special reason and then I said there is no objection to such a person being given the amount asked for, provided he satisfies me .
MR . GUZANA: What do you consider would be grounds to satisfy you to make the lump sum available to the applicant?
deferred pay we find there is an advisory committee in the Department of the Interior. This advisory committee has to advise the main committee in Pretoria concerning the expenditure of this deffered pay. We are not aware that there is an African member
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : That would be seen at the time of the application. MR .
GU ZANA:
That
is
too
vague .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Let me again remind the hon. Mr. Mpondo that whenever the question of an increase in clerks ' salaries , or the grading of their scales is done , it is a duty that does not
on this committee in the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why are you worried about that? You want the Europeans here .
devolve upon the Department of the Interior but on the Public Service Commission .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: What we expect is that even the African people
Again, it is not correct to say that my Department took junior clerks and placed them in positions higher than other senior members of the staff. To come to the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda , he was correct in stating that the results of the by-elections were received late . I wish Mr. Mda would note that before the results of the by-elections are released certain telegrams must first of all be received from the magistrates' offices all over the Republic , where there are Transkeian citizens . We cannot account for the delay as far as the Republic is concerned , because they are merely doing us a service . In my opinion they have more to be thanked than criticized .
should be trained so that they can sit side by side with the Europeans on this advisory committee . What we suggest now is that the money of the people who came from the Transkei should be used in the Transkei . At the same time we think a special request should be made to Pretoria so that the deferred pay should come to the Trans kei to assist those people who deferred their pay while they were away . The children of those people could benefit from that deferred pay in the way of scholarships . In regard to TB, much has been done but there is only one thing which causes TB and that is the low wages of the African people .
179.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: cizing you, not the Republic .
We
are
criti-
Registrar of Births , Marriages and Deaths . It is not for me to apply for him.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: To come to the hon . the Leader of the
MR . GUZANA: But you may have a position when a Transkeian wishes to marry a girl, buys a licence and there is only an ecclesiastical marriage officer available . Can't this be solved by the registration of these officers with the Republican Government?
Opposition, what surprises me is that the members of his party will not follow his example . They often go off at a tangent. The Leader of the Opposition referred to the need for a rise in the salaries of welfare officers and complained that the grade 2 clerks get more than these welfare officers , although these clerks only hold matric certificates , whereas the welfare officers have completed four years' University training. He must also remember that even in the clerical division there may be some who are graduates. The impression therefore
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : We are only interested in granting him a licence to marry Transkeians in the Transkei only . That is as far as my powers go. In regard to the recruitment of Bantu youths , there are regulations in the Native Labour Anyone who Act regulating recruiting . recruits an under- aged youngster is doing so illegally and provision exists whereby , if there is any doubt , the parents' consent must be obtained , otherwise anybody who recruits a youngster under age is doing
should not be gained that these grade 2 clerks are only matriculants and are .... MR . GUZANA: Do you have grade 2 clerks in your Department who hold a degree?
THE INTERIOR:
so illegally. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , I wonder if you would ask the members to listen. There is a matter here which has been discussed at length with regard to
GUZANA: I spoke precisely of the clerks in your Department and I welfare officers had a lower salary grade 2 clerks in your Department.
the by-elections , to the effect that some people were forced to vote for certain candidates and others were persuaded not to vote . My Department is not aware that anybody was forced to vote for certain candidates . The
THE MINISTER OF No. not in my Department. MR. grade 2 said the than the
regulations are clear that any body can vote as he likes. I have nothing to do with what happens behind the scenes. MR . GUZANA: That is why we are
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The question of these salary scales is quite appreciated but it is going to be considered by me and my Government .
drawing your attention to it, so that something can be done . If we were to use your methods in these by- elections you would be wiped out. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Whose methods?
(Laughter) We do not want to be led by you. We are aware of these things and we know they should have a rise .
MR. GUZANA: They have been like this since 1963. You have had a rise in your salary .
MR. GUZANA: Your methods . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Did you go to Dalindyebo and Nyanda and see what was
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : To pass on, the hon. member also mentioned health educators . Please note that these officers are not under my Department, but under the Department of Health of the Republic . I think six speakers stood up and spoke about these health educators as
happening?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : To pass on, Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. Mr. Mazwi spoke about the clerks employed at these labour bureaux . He said that the clerks are bribed , but I wish him to remember that the clerks who work in these labour bureaux are employed by the Department of Justice . Anybody who is a witness to any type of corruption or bribery should report the matter to the police and the clerk concerned will be arrested ; or he can even report the matter to the department. (Interjections)
though they are under me , and that is why I suggest that some of you should make investigations before you make incorrect statements . However , I may say that there are negotiations between my Department and the Department of Health of the Republic and during the debate on the motion of the hon. Mr. Mazwi this matter will come up . You must not talk of things about which you know nothing.
MR . GUZANA: We sometimes report these things to the Ministers , but they may not be any better than the clerks themselves . (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: Don't be isolent, just answer the questions. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : In regard to marriage officers , I am empowered to appoint them to operate only in the Transkei . If any marriage officer wishes to solemnize a marriage between a Transkeian and an outsider he can apply to the
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , I think those are the only important points to which I wish to refer. The rest was just talk. I move that Vote 4 be passed .
180.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we have two amendments before us and I shall put the one by the hon. Mr.
case with most service departments , and in spite of a small improvement , still labours under a severe shortage of technical and
Majija.
professional experienced
The amendment was lost by 32 votes to
staff which undoubtedly curbs the activities of the Department and limits its potential to the manpower actually available . Apart from the officers and employees indicated under this subhead , sight must not be lost of the fact that the Department employs an additional 5,500 units , whose wages are provided for in the various projects . Training continues apace and productivity, I am glad to say , has improved markedly, but
60. The second amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi was put and lost by 33 votes to 61. The sum of R3,300,000 under Vote 4, Department of the Interior , was passed to stand part of the schedule.
there is still much room left for improvement, which can only be achieved by better supervision and as the staff gain more experience in the techniques of road and building construction .
POLICY STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS . Mr. Chairman , honourable Chiefs and members .
staff and to a lesser extent clerical and administrative
Paramount
During the year appointments and promotions in prescribed and non-prescribed posts, apart from labourers , totalled 78.
In presenting to you my policy statement and my estimates of expenditure on Vote 6 , Roads and Works , I would like , at the outset, to say that the policy of consolidation which I expounded at my last budget speech has borne good fruit. I propose largely to continue with this policy during the current financial year. I am, notwithstanding , venturing a small ex-
The Department some 2 years ago requested an inspection by the Public Service Commission. This took place during the past financial year. A new staff establishment was brought into operation on the 1st April , 1967 , and will result not only in removing most of the deficiencies of the
pansion and reorganisation not only in respect of better and more plant and machinery, particularly in the Roads Section
old establishment, but will also place this Department in a far better position to carry out its functions and tasks . The full implementation of the new establishment can however only occur over a period of some years in view of its enlargement and certain practical difficulties arising therefrom . The total cost involved will ultimately amount to R161,000 , whilst the increase
but also in regard to staff and the general functional organisation of the department . A special road project unit is being established to cope with the demand for roads at Qamata and Lambasi , the provision of streets in Bantu townships such as Ibisi , and the levelling of sites for Government building projects , etc.
in staff will amount to 320 posts .
When my Department was established all the various functions it had to perform could not be foreseen , and numerous new functions had to be undertaken to meet demands and developments with the result that its establishment was not only in imbalance but also inadequate to cope with its duties as a Service Department. This
SUBHEAD B: SUBHEAD C:
Subsistence and Transport. Postal , Telegraph and Telephone Services .
SUBHEAD D :
Printing , Stationery , Advertisements and Publications.
SUBHEAD E : Miscellaneous SUBHEAD F : Furniture .
has now, to a considerable extent, been remedied by a new establishment recently approved by the Public Service Commis-
Expenditure .
These first four subheads represent the daily run of expenditure in administering the Department, whilst subhead F makes provision for the official furniture required by the six Departments .
sion which will gradually be implemented during the following years , according to demands made upon the Department.
SUBHEAD G: ROADS AND BRIDGES. General : The Transkei Roads Act came into operation on the 1st April , 1966. As from this date all public roads in the Transkei can be classified into two main categories , namely Government and Authority roads ,
Coming now to the estimates I shall indicate what has been done during the last financial year and what it is proposed to do during the current year. SUBHEAD A: SALARIES AND WAGES. To accomplish the proposed reorganisation and expansion as well as allowing for the recent increase in salaries an amount of R179,900 has been provided - this increase is R32,300 . Funds must be provided to meet the salaries and wages of possible appointments to posts that could be made during the year . The Department , as is the
the former being the responsibility of the Transkei Government through its Department of Roads and Works , whilst the latter is the responsibility of the tribal authorities . The Roads Act requires that all Government roads be declared as such by a Notice issued by me in the Gazette , all other roads
181.
then automatically Authority road.
having the
status
of
An initial list of designated Transkei Government Roads appeared in the Official Gazette of 29th July, 1 1966. This list which contained 427 roads is certainly not the final one and more roads will eventually be added from time to time. You will have observed from the newspapers that I propose to designate an additional 36 Government roads in the immediate future and it may interest you to learn that a third list is in the course of preparation. Also on the 1st April , 1966 , this Department took over all the road making activities from the regional authorities. This necessitated the esta-
propose to deal briefly with the basic facts only, taken region by region, since a more detailed review will take up too much time. UMZIMKULU REGION: This region is a very mountainous area, subject to severe storms necessitating the extensive drainage of roads which slows down work. Yet in spite of this , 23.0 miles were reconstructed , culverted and gravelled. In addition 4 new bridges were completed . General maintenance was also carried out on most roads , attention being particularly
paid to drainage.
MALUTI REGION: Although the roads in this region are in difficult terrain and like the Umzimkulu region, subject to severe climatic conditions , work is as yet mainly confined to extensive maintenance. I propose to move a road construction unit to this region during the latter half of the financial year. A bridge building unit is also at present in action in this region.
blishment of road depots in all the regions , mostly on a purely temporary basis from the point of view of accommodation until the proposed sites can be obtained and proper depots built. The intention remains to each temporary regional headreplace quarters with permanent buildings and it is hoped to commence on two of these depots
EMBOLAND: Here work is proceeding on the Buffalo Nek Road and 9.6 miles were reconstructed, culverted and gravelled. Work, however , is still proceeding on a further stretch of 6.8 miles of this road.
during the current year. Apart designated Government from roads , the roads in the Transkei forests as well as certain other special roads such as will exist in the Lambasi and Qamata agricultural schemes , streets in Bantu towns , etc. also fall under the purview of my
A regravelling unit spent all year in the Tsolo district, mainly on the main Tsolo Maclear main road where 22 miles were regravelled. Bridge building was also
Department.
carried out.
The amount provided for expenditure on Main, Secondary , Forestry and other roads has increased to R923,000. (an increase of R109,000 . ) This is a fairly substantial increase and will provide funds also for the functioning of an additional special project construction unit. This is actually one large unit, but will in practice be able to function in one, two or three self-contained sections . The establishment
QAUKENI REGION : The main effort here was concentrated on the regravelling of the main road, whilst a new box culvert was constructed to facilitate the straightening out of the Flagstaff - Emagusheni Road. (A distance of 0.3 miles of new road was constructed to achieve this purpose.) In January, 1967 , the new Mitchell Bridge across the Umtamvuna was opened and this Department took over the maintenance of a small section of the new road
of this unit will place the Department in a position to increase its capacity for roadmaking in such extensive agricultural schemes as Qamata and Lambasi as well as in streetmaking in Bantu towns such as Ibisi and the projected town outside Matatiele . It will also be used to level sites for
up to the new bridge . A small regravelling unit was engaged on roads at the Lambasi agricultural scheme and the new tea plantations at Magwa as well as at the tea nurseries . In addition general maintenance and opening of drains and pipe culverts was carried out so that a general improvement is noticeable.
Government buildings. Of interest to members will be the provision of a bulldozer and motor grader which can be hired out to tribal authorities for meeting the problems connected with their own roadmaking activities .
NYANDA REGION : The road construction unit working in this region is progressing well if the nature of the terrain is taken into consideration ; 7.9 miles of recon struction and 8.6 miles gravelling could be achieved . For part of the year an additional regravelling unit was also brought to this area and it managed to do 9.7 miles of
As in previous years the major slice of the funds provided goes to the construction and maintenance of secondary roads in the districts , whilst the development of forestry roads in order to advance the revenue earning capacity of the Transkei Government forests also obtains a substantial increase in funds .
gravelling. There is a marked improvement in the general condition of the Ny anda Roads .
I am sure members will be interested
DALINDY EBO REGION : The road construction in this area is progressing and during the year 9.5 miles of road were formed and
in the accomplishments of the Department during the previous financial year and I
182.
known to what extent the new uniform Road Traffic Ordinance would affect the old signs . The new Road Traffic Bill which
9.7 miles of gravel completed. A small regravelling unit also accomplished 8.7 miles . Government roads in this area also show a general improvement.
will be placed before the Legislative Assembly will standardise these signs and it is hoped to re-commence the operations of signposting after the adoption of the Bill.
EMIGRANT TEMBULAND: A large main road regravelling unit worked in this region and regravelled. 18.8 miles. Other betterment work was also done , apart from general maintenance .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I would like to hear what the opinion of the House is whether we should continue until the hon. Minister has finished his
FINGOLAND REGION : Road work in this region was largely confined to normal and grader maintenance . Drainage was also considerably improved. A small additional regravelling unit was established during
policy speech or whether we should adjoum .
MR .
K.M.
GUZANA:
Mr.
Chairman ....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are not the Minister piloting this Bill .
the year and is making excellent progress . GCALEKA REGION : This is also a difficult region and it received a lot of attention as a construction unit as well as a large regravelling unit worked there throughout the year and 10.2 miles of road were re-
MR.
GUZANA:
We
have been
asked
for our opinion . We would that we adjourn at this very convenient stage . We have been told that signposts are going to be constructed and we will find our way home , anyway.
constructed and gravelled, whilst 41 miles were regravelled. Two causeways were also completed . Altogether roads in this high rainfall area have improved considerably and favourable reports have been received . FORESTRY ROADS: Apart from the work on the Government roads , the Department is also concerned with the building of forestry roads. Four construction units are operating in Gqogqora, Langeni , Langewacht and Insikeni . Thus , there is almost twice as much plant on forestry roads in the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : House agree?
Does the
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned .
House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress.
Umzimkulu district as there is plant on Forestry Roads in the rest of the Transkei . This is justified by the extensive forests there and the forestry development taking place in this region calling for many extraction and development roads .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 16th May, 1967.9
TUESDAY, 16TH MAY, 1967. The
The small construction and gravelling unit in this region did valuable work in the Insikeni , Straalhoek and Sihleza Plantations.
Assembly
resumed
at
11a.m.
Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
OTHER ROADS: Under the sub-item and heading " Other Roads " of the estimates it must be mentioned that a completely new road was made , drained and gravelled to serve the Magwa tea plantation , whilst the road serving the tea nurseries was also
QUESTIONS. QUESTION NO. 38. Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Justice:-
improved. Plant for the special project unit to be purchased during the current financial year will come into operation towards the end of the year .
"(a) How many applications for liquor licences were received by your Department during 1966-67?
BRIDGES: Altogether 10 bridges , 7 causeways and 6 box and other large culverts were built . These are all items greatly facilitating road and pedestrian traffic a cross otherwise difficult or impassable streams.
(b) How many of these applications were considered for approval?
(c) How many applicants have been refused licences , and if any, what are the reasons?"
ROAD SIGNS: During the past financial year R2,459 was spent on road signs , most of it on direction signs. Numerous other road signs were also erected . Much, however, remains to be done in this respect, but unfortunately no other road signs could
REPLY: Before
replying
specifically
to
the
three parts of this question I wish to emphasise that a distinction must be drawn between LICENCES in terms of Proclamation No. 333 of 1949 , and SPECIAL AUTHORITIES in terms of Proclamation No. 177
be purchased during the year as it was not 183.
of 1962. liquor) .
(Both
Proclamations
deal
with
(a) Have the Africans to whom trading stations have been sold been given title deeds to the properties ?
The reply to (a) is:
Applications for new licences Applications for renewal of licences Applications for special authorities
(b) In view of the fact that the B.I.C. has advanced loans to these African buyers , does the B.I.C. have a mortgage bond registered against the title deeds relating to the
10 59 :
properties ?"
9
(b) 63 licences and 6 special authorities .
REPLY: (a) Yes , title deeds have been given to Bantu buyers .
(c) 2 applicants for licences .
Special authorities are granted or refused by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development . Two have already been granted , and the outcome of the other four is still being awaited.
(b) When the amount of the loan is not very big, the loan is made against a promissary note , In the case of larger loans , a first mortgage bond is registered .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , arising out of the reply to question 40 (b) , is the hon . Minister able to say whether, for the purposes of this mortgage bond, the BIC is regarded as Black or is
The Liquor Licensing Board does not furnish reasons for refusal. QUESTION NO. 39. Mr. G. Dana asked the Justice :-
Minister of
there a special provision empowering them or entitling them to have mortgage bonds over properties owned by Africans ?
"(a) (i) How many Police Stations in the Transkei are now in the control of the African Police? (ii) And if there are any, where are they located?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I am unable to say out of hand but I will go into the matter and reply to the hon. member.
(b) (i) Whether the Minister of Justice supports the school of thought which urges that all first offenders with the exception of those guilty of particularly crimes be put on serious
QUESTION NO. 41. Mr. G. Dana asked the Education: "(a) (i) Whether history
probation and not sentenced to jail terms ? Minister will (ii) Whether the make a statement in that regard?"
REPLY: (a) (i) Two. (ii) At Nene
Gate
and
Minister of is
made
a
compulsory subject for standard 6 , 7 and 8 in all schools and colleges falling under the Transkei Department of Education? (ii) If not, why not? (b) What is the percentage of the Transkei African population
Tabase .
between the ages of seven and fourteen years at school?
(b) (i) I am not aware of a school of thought which urges a period of probation as the only alternative to imprisonment. What I unreservedly support is the accepted approach by the
(c) (i) Whether in the opinion of the Minister the African people are ripe for compulsory education? (ii) Whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard? "
Courts that, unless there are circumstances justifying the imposition of imprisonment without the option of a fine , a first offender should, as far as possible , be kept out of prison. (ii) In view of my reply to (b) (i) no further statement is neces-
REPLY : (a) (i) There
are
no such standards
as standards seven and eight in Transkeian schools. The answer to the question is therefore as follows:
sary.
Standard VI Forms I , II and III
QUESTION NO . 40. Mr. K.M.N. Guzana asked the Minister of the Interior:-
Yes. No.
-
(ii) Though the value of History is not denied, there is no reason why it should receive preferential treatment to make it a
"Arising out of the reply given by the honourable the Minister of Education on behalf of the Minister of the Interior on the
compulsory
9th May , 1967 , I ask the question :
184.
subject
in
post-
primary classes .
(f) Only the Organiser is with official transport.
(b) As the necessary statistical information to calculate this percent-
provided
(g) This matter has been receiving the attention of the Department over a considerable period of time.
age is not available , no reliable reply can be furnished.
MR . B.S. RAJ UILI : Mr. Chairman , arising from the replie , may I find out from s the hon . the Ministe of Educat ion in 42 (a) r and (d), need the candid c ates oncerned be Transk c eian itizens or could a non -Transqualifi keian holding the requir ed cations be appoin ? ted
(c) (i) As a reply to this question would be a matter of conjecture and could be a debatable one , I do not intend replying.
(ii) No. QUESTION. NO. 42. Miss L. Twetwa asked the Minister of Education: -
EDUCATION : MINISTER THE OF Transkeian citizens and those who are not Transkeian citizens but who belong to another ethnic group .
"(a) How many Transkei citizens are employed as Homecraft Supervisors? (b) How many seconded officials are Inspectresses in the Transkei?
QUESTION NO . 43. Mr. Z. Chemane asked the Minister of Education : -
(c) How many schools has each of the Inspectresses been allotted for inspection?
"Has there ever been any consideration by the Transkeian Department of Education to establish either a High School or Training School or both in Umzimkulu region?"
(d) (i) How many Transkei citizens have been graded as Inspectresses in Homecraft?
REPLY: Regarding the establishment of a High School definitely "Yes" but as to a Training School - "No".
(ii) If none , why.
(e) How many schools has each of the Supervisors been allotted for supervision?
QUESTION NO. 44. Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"(a) Is the Department of Roads and Works aware that Mnikwa Primary School in the district of Mount Ayliff was completely destroyed by fire some few years ago?
(f) Of these Inspectresses and Supervisors , how many have been provided with vehicles for transport? (g) If there are any of these officials not provided with vehicles , why not?"
(b) If so , what steps have been taken to have the school in question constructed ?
REPLY : (a) Two . (b) One , but with the designation of Organiser of Homecraft and not Inspectress . (c) There is no special allocation of schools to the Organiser of Homecraft. She is responsible for inpecting all Secondary, High, Training and Industrial Schools plus as many primary schools as possible. (d) (i) None . (ii) There
(c) If not, why not?" REPLY:
(a) No , as the Department has not as yet been approached about this school by the Department of Education or the Tribal authority .
(b) Falls away . (c) Falls away.
are
no
such posts
71-3
as
Inspectresses of Homecraft in the Transkei. The Civil Service
QUESTION NO. 45. Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of the Interior:-
grading of the Public Service Commission only makes provision for Organiser of Homecraft and female Supervisors of Education.
"Arising from the reply of the Minister to Question No. 34 by the honourable Mr. K.G. Nota, - Of the 63 Trading Stations still managed by the B.I.C.:
(a) How many Africans are employed as managers? (b) How many Whites are employed as managers? (c) How do their salaries compare i.e. an African and a White manager?
(e) No specific number of schools has been allocated to each Supervisor but the 26 districts are shared equally between them and they are aided by the Organiser of Homecraft.
185.
the B.I.C. is (d) Whether Africans as managers ?
training
(ii) the local gravels consist of soft shales which weather and easily. pulverise Rolling accelerates pulverisation and shortens the useful life of this type of gravel as a road metal .
(e) If so , how many Africans have qualified? ( f) How many of them have been given jobs by the B.I.C. as managers ? (g) How many of them have taken over trading stations from the B.I.C. with a view to buy ?
MR . C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply can the hon . Minister specifically tell this House what roads in Tabankulu district have been gravelled , except the Tabankulu-Cweral and road?
REPLY: (a) 30 Bantu Managers ; (b) 33 Whites; (c) Salary scales vary according to experience as managers and the
THE MINISTER OF ROADS :
request the hon. member to put the question in writing . If he wants the information to be
turnover of particular trading stations and a uniform scale does not
given him properly it must be investigated specifically.
apply . Bantu Managers earn up to R120-00 per month and European
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Managers up to R160-00 per month. Commission and incentive bonus schemes apply in addition to salaries and they are identical for both and European Managers . Bantu
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I beg to move that the House resolves itself into committee .
(d) Bantu are trained as managers at centres , name ly training three
THE MINISTER OF I second, Mr. Chairman.
Selborne, Umtata district ; Palmerton, Lusikisiki district and Kenegha Drift in the Mount Fletcher district.
House in Committee POLICY STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS. (Continued).
qualified so far; ( f) All 28 have been employed by the B.I.C. (now the Xhosa Development Corporation) .
Bantu
managers
have
SUBHEAD H : PURCHASE AND HIRE OF PLANT AND MACHINERY EQUIPMENT AND TOOLS.
the
opportunity to apply for loans to take over any of the trading stations purchased by the S.A. Bantu Trust . Three applications are at present under consideration and
No material expansion in the Department's plant and machinery is visualised during the coming year , other than the establishment of the project unit already referred to . Most of the funds are being used to replace worn-out plant and machinery. The Department's supervisory staff in the Roads Section has improved and with the additional operational and supervisory staff which can be appointed in terms of its new establishment, the Roads Section should be able to cope much better with the demands made upon it. The funds available for the current financial year are R396,300 which is slightly less than that
many more have indicated that they will be interested in buying trading stations as soon as they have established themselves . QUESTION NO. 46. Mr. C. Diko asked the Roads and Works :-
AGRICULTURE :
Agreed to .
(e) 28 of the Bantu managers who were trained at the se centres have
(g) All
I would
Minister for
"(a) How many rollers are there in the Qaukeni Region? (b) If any, how many gravelled roads that have been gravelled and rolled are there in Tabankulu district?"
provided in the previous year.
SUBHEAD J : BUILDING SERVICES. The Works Section of the Department is heavily burdened in providing buildings of all sorts for the six departments , as well as schools and other buildings required for educational purposes . In order that the Assembly may obtain an overall picture of the services being rendered , it is neces-
REPLY:
(a) Two grid rollers are in use on main roads and there are two drum rollers in the area. (b) None of the roads gravelled in the Tabankulu area have been rolled for two reasons :(i) It is very dangerous to use a towed roller because of the
sary not only to indicate to you what my Department proposes to do during the current financial year but also what it has accomplished during the past financial year despite the shortage of manpower in the
step gradients ;
186.
administrative , grades .
as the Administrative Complex Ministerial Housing Complex .
technical and professional
During the past financial year at 5 new and 2 existing primary schools the following accommodation was provided:
and the
This is quite a formidable programme, but the Department feels that with the contractors getting on to the sites and with increased departmental staff and technical officers all the commitments will be met.
60 classrooms , 6 principals ' offices , 6 staff rooms and 6 store rooms . Additional facilities were provided in the form of 134 sanitary conveniences and 20 water tanks .
SUBHEAD K : MINOR WORKS AND ALTERATIONS.
At 2 new and 7 existing secondary schools 23 classrooms , 1 principal's office , 1 staff room , 3 store rooms and 2 laboratories were built in addition to 61 latrines and 19 water tanks .
This is a new subhead having been separated from subhead J ( Building Services) of the previous years , of which it formed part. It provides funds for almost a 100 minor works for the six departments ranging
This total of 83 classrooms is much more than twice the number built per year before self-government.
from temporary wattle and daub huts to sawmills , housing for forestry and sawmill workers and 22 additional classrooms at existing secondary schools , etc. Funds
The Technical College was commenced with late afternoon and evening classes At the E.W. Pearce Primary School. For this purpose an additional classroom was built whilst the five existing classrooms were repaired and renovated .
for primary schools to be built by tribal authorities or school committees as was decided upon by the Government, feature under this heading . Here it should be explained that this decision was taken during last year to supplement Government efforts in order to endeavour to alleviate the severe at primary of accommodation shortage
Educational institutions such as Blythswood, (a school of 12 classrooms and a girls' hostel for 208 pupils) the Technical College (consisting of administration block, 14 classrooms , workshops and boys ' and girls ' hostels) , the Lusikisiki Vocational School (consisting of workshops , classrooms , drawing room, hostel and administrative offices) and the Sigcau Training College (a girls' hostel , etc.) as well as 3 secondary schools with a total of 27 classrooms , etc.
schools. This scheme hardly needs any elaboration at this stage , but the indications are that it is being received enthusiastically in all administrative areas . What I would like to emphasize is that my Department keeps an open door to anybody who wishes to have some of the points of the scheme explained to him in greater detail , a fact of which some of the members of this House are already aware . As far as educational institutions are concerned my Department will concentrate its efforts on buildings intended for secondary or higher education and will feature in the building of primary schools only where no tribal authority exists as in an urban area like Umtata, or
feature amongst the biggest school projects to be commenced during this year . A new Training College and 2 high schools also appear on the estimates but it is not expected that they will progress much beyond the planning stage .
where a primary school started by it some time previously has to be completed . A few examples of the latter occur on the estimates under discussion .
The Department was also instrumental in the provision of 132 units of accommodation for the Department of Agriculture and Forestry and 87 other minor works , and alterations of a very diversified nature for other departments . In addition office for various departments accommodation
SUBHEAD L : General Maintenance . SUBHEAD M : Rents and Rates , etc.
was added to existing buildings in Umtata , Tsolo, Mount Fletcher , Cofimvaba and Bizana.
SUBHEAD N : Maintenance
and
repair
plant and Machinery ,
Apart from agency services to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development the Department also embarked on a very extensive programme of repairs and renovations to government in the outlying areas .
to etc.
These subheads are all of a general nature all of which show an increase in anticipated expenditure indicative of a general increase in the activities concerned ..
buildings SUBHEAD 0 : GOVERNMENT MOTOR TRANSPORT.
For the current year the amount provided for Major Works shows the substantial increase of roughly R254,000 over last year's figure of R599,100. This is primarily due to the fact that some of the larger building
The amount provided for the current financial year is somewhat less than that of the previous year, namely R503,000 as against R520,000 .
projects will show material progress during . this year . This includes such undertakings
At the end of the financial year 1965/66
187 .
thetransport division of the Department had under its control 488 vehicles , which varied from small sedan cars to 10-ton capacity trucks .
to do everything possible to meet the very extensive and varied requirements of the six departments . There are obvious limiting factors in the ability of my Department to meet all the demands placed on it, the two principal ones being man-power and funds . In regard to the former I wish to place on record my deep appreciation for the unstinted devotion to duty of the men in my Department through whose efforts
During the period under review 95 new units , being replacements of redundant vehicles and additional allocations , were purchased . Five units were transferred from the Roads Section . On two occasions public auctions were held and 69 units sold , and the number of vehicles under the control of this Division totalled 519 at the end of
so much has been accomplished during the past year , often under difficult and trying conditions .
the financial year 1966/67 . Mr. Chairman , with these remarks I now move the adoption of Vote 6 of the
Notwithstanding the increased number of Government-owned vehicles there was a slight decrease in the number of accidents i.e. 137 in comparison with the 141 accidents registered the previous financial year. "accidents" , I should explain, These
Estimates . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , of all the policy speeches which have been given to, the House this year , I think the hon . Minister who has just placed his policy before the House should be told that his Department has failed the the people of the Transkei badly . If it could be brought to the notice of the hon . Minister how many cars , buses and heavy vehicles owned by the people of the Transkei are using the roads it would be evident that he has not cared for the owners of those vehicles and for the vehicles as he ought to.
include all cases of reportable damage such as dents sustained in body work or damage casued by other vehicles . Although the reduction in the number of accidents is only 3 % in comparison with last year , there has been a reduction of 20% in the cost of repair damage. There is, therefore , a notable reduction in the severity of the accidents . This is attributable in the first place to the imposition of speed restrictions on certain vehicles and also in part to stricter action taken against drivers who are found responsible for the accidents . Also , the drivers are becoming more experienced .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: That has
In collaboration with the Department of Agriculture and Forestry a course for approximately forty drivers of the latter Department was held at Tsolo. This course was not sufficiently comprehensive but it is hoped to remedy this. Consequently a more comprehensive course is to be introduced. It has also been resolved that a series of courses should be held at various centres , the first to commence at Umtata during June , 1967. This Department feels that personal contact with drivers and supervisors should have a beneficial effect. It is considered that road sense and responsible driving by drivers are lacking and that the objects will be to imprint these characteristics as well as road safety upon the drivers .
nothing to do with me . CHIEF MAJEKE : To prove that I am right he has just interjected that he has nothing to do with that. It is disappointing to hear this interjection by the Minister because when I talk of cars and vehicles and heavy trucks I am talking about the roads used by such vehicles . If he refuses to listen to these requests, which department is supposed to listen to our complaints ? The health of the whole Transkei rests upon the shoulders of the doctors who must travel backwards and forwards to render medical services to the people of the Transkei . The hon . Minister should be aware of the number of trading stations serving the people of the Transkei , and he should note that such trading stations should have proper roads leading to them in order that
With this in mind the assistance of the Regional Secretary of Road Safety Council , East London , has been enlisted .
they may be able to serve the people satisfactorily . He ought also to know that educational centres should have good roads leading to them . Likewise , the heavy public buses running backwards and forwards between the locations and administrative
In addition to lectures and films trained personnel will demonstrate the rudiments , vehicle care , the roadworthiness of a vehicle and safe driving methods. Whilst the number of accidents is still large , further efforts are being made by the department to reduce the accident rate .
areas and trading centres should be taken into account by a department which serves the public . Last year after his policy speech , this side of the House spoke in favourable terms of his speech and I think that has spoiled the Minister this year . Last year he tabled a report of all the cars and other vehicles which had been damaged. Evidently
CONCLUSION : Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members , I should like to conclude by stating that my Department is doing and will continue
188.
A grader can work the surface of the road and leave it like the carpet in front of us , but it cannot put on the gravel and harden the surface as it should be . In Qumbu area thère have been four or five accidents at one particular point where the road looks very good. The cause of this is that loose
that is why our roads this year are in such bad repair. He has taken over the roads. that were in the care of the Provincial Administration in the Transkei. We would like to
mention that when these roads were taken over by this Department they were in such good repair that they would not have been damaged to the extent they have
stones have been placed on that particular spot. A person who is used to travelling
now been damaged.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : were worse . CHIEF
MAJEKE :
They
had
at speed on that road suddenly comes upon these loose stones which cause the disaster I have described . One of these was a hospital van, and another car which was follow-
They
solid
ing met with an accident at the same place. I am trying to advise the hon . Minister to take note of these things. I am not merely being unfavourably critical of his speech. (Interjections) I hope those members behind are taking notes because I note that the hon. Minister is merely drowsing. If we did not have several roads in the Trans kei
foundations and were well gravelled . This Department has been in charge of the roads. for only four years , but even if you say it is less than that the roads were nevertheless in good repair when you took them over. Indeed he is aware that he is short of manpower , as he complains throughout his policy speech of the shortage of technicians and the lack of manpower and labour, and if there are therefore no good roads · then whither the Transkei ? The hon. the Minister of Roads visited the Mount Frere district where he went to address the people on a political mission . THE CHIEF MINISTER: personal · just discuss the vote.
Don't
which are in the care of the Republican Government, I am quite certain that in some areas travelling on the roads would have to come to an end. What we are looking for is that many people should be employed on the roads , and they must be offered a wage that will be attractive to them because such labourers are exposed to heat, hail and all kinds of inclement weather. We would
be
further suggest that you employ qualified road inspectors who will carry out a close inspection of the roads from time to time, and that you have a large number of trucks to put plenty of gravel on the roads because we have sufficient gravel in the Transkei .
CHIEF MAJEKE: Speaking to the electorate there he pointed out the bad condition of the roads and causeways, and he promised that in a short while these things would be put into good order. I think as recently as last month , on the very route
The labourers could then spread the gravel and beat it in thoroughly because the roads which he referred to in his policy speech are evidently only in the Qaukeni area. In the rest of the Transkei private cars are usually made to act as rollers to crush the stones on the roads . As a result of the bad roads
he had noted , a car was swept off the causeway together with its inmate . He maintains that there is a lack of efficient labour , and I would like to point out to him that our people from the Transkei are all working outside the Transkei . They are working as builders in Johannesburg and in areas like Cape Town , and they are qualified labourers in the Roads and Works Department. I would advise the hon. Minister to recall all these skilled labourers and offer
leading to the place of a chief who was installed , the people were even forced to have the installation at a different place from where it should have been . (Interjections) The excuse was that the weather was wet but there was no rain before the instal-
them a wage similar to the wage they are. earning at present . Even here in the Transkei there are many who are idling in the reserves. They are merely working and helping the people in the reserves because
lation of the chief in question . Many Transkei dignitaries had been invited, including Chief Minister, the Commissionerthe General and the Secretaries of the different Departments of the Transkei Government. The route in question is an old road which needed only to be touched up here and there. I think I have replied to the question that he has been complaining about · the
they are not aware that there is a possibility of employment under this Department. What happens to the road graders which we see perhaps once in four month in any particular area ? I am making a high estimate when I put it at four months . You will note that when the road was gravelled under the
question of shortage of labour and wages . I would like to express thanks to the Department for the statement on page 25 : "It is considered that road sense and responsible driving by drivers are lacking and that the objects will be to imprint these characterisas well as road safety upon the tics drivers. " We comment favourably on this attitude of the Department, but matters should not be left at that. Another point)I wish to mention is in connection with fencing . Many of these roads are fenced in and in some places there is a fairly wide
previous Government, the road graders did the work thoroughly. Today you find that these graders collect earth and cover the road with that, and our expectations that the road will be flattened after that are not fulfilled . If you take note of the number of graders you will find that if there are five of them it is a lot . This indicates without doubt that this Department has never worried about employing sufficient labour to build the roads and maintain them satisfactorily .
189 .
and the roads should be in good condition . I would like you to note particularly a road in the Embol and region between Qumbu and Mount Frere. You may go and inspect this road any day . It is about four miles along the road from Qumbu to Mount Frere , branching off via Sulenkama to Katkop and Mount Fletcher. The road used to be very good and where the graders have not yet worked on the further part the surface is still hard and dry, but where the graders have worked the surface is soft and dangerous . Another road leading from Qumbu to Western Pondoland so much has been very badly neglected so that the travellers are taking side roads . I have gone over this policy speech very thoroughly and I have given what we regard as helpful and constructive advice . As a result of influx control I would like this
strip between the road and the fence . This attracts stock to graze there , causing danger to road traffic. Where there is a bend in the road the fence is usually taken in a straight line , leaving a large portion of grazing at the side of the road . We would therefore advise that the fence on either side of the road should be brought closer to the road so that animals are not attracted by the rich grass between the fence and the road. (Interjections) On page 24 , reference is made to the slight decrease in the number of accidents . We are grateful to the Department that they have reduced the cost of repairs by 20 per cent, but we think the number of accidents is not much less than those of last year. We would like to point out that it is not only the vehicles which are damaged in these accidents , but the lives of people are endangered . We must say , however , that we accept favourably that you are going to be very strict in applying the law in order to protect the lives of the people. On page 21 the Minister says there are moneys which will be made available to
Department to note that many people are being returned from the work centres to the Transkei and that this Department should have a larger vote so that they can find employment for these people and be able to offer attractive wages in order to perincoming Transkeians to these suade
the school committees to put up schools , and in the following sentence he states that the Government will only be concerned with building post-primary schools . We do not imply that schools for higher education are not important, but we wish the Department would erect more primary
remain at home in employment. Finally , this Department also looks after the wells and water supplies in the Reserves .
schools . I would like the Department to note that the school committees he refers to are not as aware of the education needs
CHIEF MAJEKE : I thought they came under the Department of Roads and Works . However, I would say to this Department of Agriculture in passing that there are not sufficient water supplies and people are suffering from typhoid fever as a result.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is Agriculture .
of the country as he thinks they are . You will note that many of these schools are very neglected and we would advise the Department either to use school inspectors
The debate was adjourned .
or supervisors .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And the chiefs . CHIEF MAJEKE: .... or to find people they can send out to the reserves in order that they may help the people in regard to the erection of these school buildings . I
AFTERNOON SESSION.
The
at
2.15 p.m.
The debate on the Transkei Appropriation Bill , Vote 6 , was resumed .
would be happy if you could also impress it upon the chiefs to take charge of these schools , but you will certainly be aware that these schools are neglected . I would like this Department and the Government to have a driving force to see that these school s are being erected and being cared for in the reserves . I would now like to refer to the road signs . Our roads in the Transkei are often narrow, and it is important that the road sign should be in a prominent position to indicate to the traveller that he must take particular note of the road ahead . One thing that was noteworthy in the policy speech was that it looks as though the roads are being neglected because of the Lambasi scheme and also the irrigation scheme at Qamata. We would advise them that that should not be used as an excuse for the poor condition of the roads in the Transkei . If you look at the roads in the Qaukeni region you will because the road whereas
Assembly resumed
MR . E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the talk which I heard from the last speaker reminds me of an experience I had long ago. I crossed a river by one ford and I returned by the same ford to find that the river was in flood and a wagon was stuck there. The driver was doing nothing about his oxen but was just nkeeling down praying. I asked him why he did that instead of trying to pull his wagon out. He said he could not as it was made fast by a spirit. I said : All right , let us search for this spirit. I rolled up my trousers and went to look at the wheels to see what was making this wagon stick. It was only a stone covered with mud which was responsible . We moved the stone and he was able to go forward. The last speaker is a fool like the man in the story . (Interjections)
find they are in very good repair much concentration is given to leading to Lambasi , (Interjections) Qaukeni is a very large region
THE please.
190.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
tration. What has the last speaker done about these roads , because he was a member of the Bunga himself, and he is a chief and therefore a member of the regional authority? What has he done about that? However, because he is now in the Opposition he sits down and criticizes . One point he seems to minimize , whereas it is a good thing , is that in certain areas where primary schools are to be put up the Department will provide the funds for the school committees or tribal authorities to build themselves . the schools (Interjections) This Department has realised that it cannot do so directly and because of this it has requested that the tribal authorities should assist it and it has said it will give some money to the tribal authorities , who will find the builders. However, the hon. member say s some of the chiefs will not manage to do that because they are not shrewd enough. How far has he himself gone? Now I want the hon . members to know that these
to comment on what he said concerning the the schools . I can speak well on this because I was present when the hon. member went to Nyandeni area. The hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Roads told lies when they were there . They were using the black cars their official cars . Now, ·
MR . SIHELE : He does not say much because everything has been put at his disposal by the Department. He is aware that the Roads Department took over the maintenance of roads on 1st April , 1966 , and he knows that previously the maintenance of some of the roads was the responsibility of the regional authorities , and others were under the Provincial Adminis-
when they were in these cars as Government members they had their candidates with them. When they arrived at Nyandeni the hon. the Chief Minister said to the people: All right, if you vote for this candidate whom we have brought we shall put up schools in every place . That was a big lie which was told by the Chief Minister (Interjections) What I am saying is what was said at those particular meetings , but there is nothing in the estimates to show that you are going to put up these schools as you said you would . However , more schools are still required . To go further, I would like to say that you must keep a keen eye on the schools built previously because they are not complete even today. They just look like stables and have no floors , no ceilings and no water tanks . All the se things are required at these schools directly. Concerning the Bantu contractors , we are thankful that Bantu people are being given contracts , but we would be very pleased if the hon. Minister could give a specific report as to how they will go about this matter . Let us turn to page 28 of the Estimates of Expenditure, sub-head O, item 3. We notice that there is a large amount under this item . Why so much money? It is because the hon . Minister does not see to it that the drivers drive iin a careful manner. These drivers should try to curb accidents on the roads . That announcement that they must not exceed 70 miles per hour is just what the Republican Government has done , because it has just been passed by the Republican Government now. He can say that in regard to the national roads , but not on his roads . Let us turn now to item E. 6. It shows that R1,500 was spent last year and the same amount this year . How is it that so much money has been spent ? I am talking about these flags which it is said have been bought. When people are starving, should such an amount of money be spent on ordinary flags ? Please see to such things . Coming to sub-Vote G, item 7, something has been said about road
schools are not going to be put up by the people. They will be put up with moneys coming from the Department. It means that there is no location where these schools will not be built. The hon . member commented on builders from the Transkei who are at present working outside the Transkei . However, those people who are outside the Transkei know nothing about this because the speaker does not preach to them about it and tell them that if they come back they will be given money. As we are talking now people at this end will be grousing because they will not know what we are talking about. That is why some of them tell the people the wrong thing when they go out, instead of telling them the right thing . Look at the great and wonderful work that has been done by this Department. Schools have been put up and also other buildings . Even wells have been attended to by this Department. As I speak now they are talking among themselves and not listening, just like the man in my story . I do not know what one can do in order to get people to understand . Let me comment now on the
signs and we notice that the amount spent last year has been decreased by R3,000 this year. Emphasizing what the hon . Chief Majeke said , there are no road signs on the roads. Will the hon. Minister please note that there are not enough culverts either, and also those road signs which indicate a as sharp bend. Such signs are necessary, well as signs indicating that there is a narrow bridge . The hon . Minister does not seem to worry about these signs . Ask me how I know that? I know because they
maintenance of roads . I agree that there are still some roads which require to be maintained in the Transkei . However , let us bear in mind that the preparation of roads can be done , but when the rains come the roads are washed away. The hon. member says he does not require graders because they spoil the roads. What can be done to put things in the proper way?
happen to be absent. (Laughter)
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I notice that the last speaker has grey hairs , and yet he has talked like a Std . 4 child . (Laughter) I want
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to associate myself with the remarks of the hon . the
191 .
soon as the rains come the soil that has been put on is washed off and we are caught in the bog again . We wish the hon. Minister to realise that our lives depend much on these roads . The last speaker has spoken very well and he said we should put our minds together concerning this. matter. However , we indicated that on the road to Shawbury there is a dangerous bend . This road is also narrow and there are no signposts and only one car can go there at a time . All the fords on the way to Shawbury are very bad and have been washed away by rain. We have asked for something to be done , but will it be done? On these narrow roads you realise that the gravel for the repair of the roads is piled at the side of the road for a long time before it is used . As a result people who are ignorant of the road are in danger, and one who knows the road is sometimes forced to turn back to
Minister of Roads and Works. His Department is a very difficult one indeed, especially in the Transkei . I would like people to concentrate on facts and not merely on insults and interjections , as though we are not really representative of the electorate . (Interjections) I was not elected , I am a chief by birth. I advise that both the Government and the Opposition should debate this matter with understanding . True enough , our roads in the Transkei are in a very bad state . We who use the roads , whether on horseback or in cars , have noticed that in some places the roads are very bad. Is it not clear that the cause is due to the heavy rains that fell this year? Let us all admit that the bad state of the roads is due to the heavy rains . We have 26 districts in the Transkei which ought to be attended to by the use of bulldozers and tractors. We as a Parliament ought to join hands and advise the Minister of Roads how he ought to carry out this work, starting with the mountainous areas and coming
help these people . Another thing I wish to to point out to the hon. Minister is the rate at which these road-workers are paid . I have heard one Minister say it is of no use but to accept what we are given, but if we represent the people we must say what they have sent us to say . Some of them are paid at the rate of 50 cents a day, and moreover there are public holidays and most of the people do not like the holidays because they know they will not be paid . Then the increase is only 5 cents per year. How could that increase help a person who has a sick family? That labourer now has to pay his taxes , feed and clothe his family and send his children to school . (Interjections)
down gradually to the lower levels , for the regions lower down are more or less flat and easy to maintain . Let us advise the hon. Minister to divide his team into twoone section to attend to the mountainous regions and the other to the more level areas of the Transkei . Remarks have been made by the Opposition to the effect that some of the roads attended to are in the direction of Lambasi . Do they not want these roads? Others are being made in those areas to try and see if the Transkei cannot made economically independent . We therefore ought to put right the roads leading to those parts . Some of those roads lead to plantations and forests and we are aware that that is where we get our timber for the making of furniture in the Transkei . The
THE
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
please . Some of the hon. members are making too much noise . MISS TWETWA: You forget that the people who work on the roads are often those who are turned out of the work centres . They are people who were once given TB or silicosis allowances and that money is now finished and they are forced to go and work on the roads . (Interjections) They cannot even manage to pay to go to the doctor . I think this low pay is one of the causes of tuberculosis . Coming to the question of bridges , people cannot visit one another in some areas because they are
hon. Chief S.S. Majeke mentioned in his address that there are highly educated and technically qualified people from the Transkei who do not come to the Transkei to find employment. I agree with him in that regard. I would like him, however , to note that the Transkei Government strains every effort to try and invite these technicians and skilled labourers to return to the Transkei . Sometimes reference is made to influx control and one of the members yesterday said that this is a point which is being belaboured in the discussions of our Parlia-
cut off. Those people have constantly been requesting that bridges be constructed and most of them are being washed out day after day by these rivers . There are some other bridges which have been constructed ,
ment. I do not know whether the Opposition desire that the hon . Ministers of the Transkei Government should go out well armed to attack the Republican Government (Interjections)
according to page 11 of the policy speech , but it does not say where they have been constructed .
MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am very glad to have an opportunity to speak after a brainy speaker such as the last one because he has agreed entirely with the Opposition that the roads in the Transkei are exceptionally bad. I personally have not seen a single good road in the Transkei , except the one which the hon . the Minister of Roads has prepared for himself. Even the road which was being repaired yesterday is useless because as
CHIEF M. TANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Roads has done exceptionally well. He has prepared his policy statement to our satisfaction . We are here to discard some of the laws and not rotate round the same axis . It is wrong that we should be discussing the same subject all the time. The hon . Minister should be requested not to go on listening to one thing all the time . When 192.
not have technicians
and labour to carry out the work to a finish. He should have given preference to the technical school , but that he has not done . Further, the ninth circular of this year indicates that help will be offered to tribal authorities in the erection of schools , and then we are in difficulty because at one time the schools were taken over from the tribal authorities .
anyone has anything of value to say , let him say that one thing. Do not say many things to confuse people . It means that we do not know what we are talking about. (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . You are making too much noise . CHIEF
TANTSI :
Whenever
there
is
Why are they therefore expected now to erect schools ? In fact, they were taken from the school boards and it was indicated
something which we do not understand let us find out so that we shall understand . We have all been talking about Lambasi which has been put right by the Minister, and there is a very good road now going to Lambasi . Because of that good road you are going to get good tea from Lambasi which will be carried on those roads and then ....
they would be under the regional authorities . In the erection of schools he goes over the regional authorities to the tribal authorities , whereas such things as the appointment of teachers fall under the regional authority. Is it the aim of the Government to bring misunderstanding between the
OPPOSITION MEMBER : What is the name of that tea going to be? Botha Sigcau
tribal and regional authorities ? The Government proposes to assist the tribal authorities with the erection of school buildings , but they do not indicate how those buildings will be maintained and by whom. One chief says they will be maintained by school funds . Who is going to build up a school
tea? (Laughter)
CHIEF TANTSI : It may something else . I request you the Opposition just to agree so do as we like . It is said : Ask
be that or members of that we can and it shall
fund? Will the money come from the Government , or will the people have to tax themselves for this school fund? Whoever constructs the building should also see that the building is maintained and kept in order. During the by-election campaigns in our area the people were told that the Government would put up the schools and that any effort to tax the people for this purpose
be given to you . (Laughter) Even when one prays one prays that something may be given to you. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the policy speech under discussion is a very important one . Progress in civilization of a people depends entirely upon their good roads . Admittedly the hon . Minister has a very heavy weight on his shoulders . Referring to Government roads and those under the control of tribal authorities , the roads under the care of the Government are published in the official Gazette . We would also like the roads under tribal authorities to be made publicly known as the Government allows a certain grant for the maintenance of these roads . If these
would not be legal. In fact , in one village the villagers went angrily to the school committee who had suggested that the people should contribute towards the maintenance of their school , and the officials of the department say they know nothing about such a thing . It was the Minister who said this on his own. I would be sorry to be in the position of the seconded officials because they are carrying administrative duties and yet their political heads , the Ministers , advocate different policies outside . The chief says money is being squandered, as though some has been squandered in his region .
roads are not specifically known it means that the Government earmarks a certain amount of money for roads that are not known . The tribal authorities have no technicians or skilled workers who can build good roads and who would give the tribal authority a correct estimate of the amount required for repairing a particular road. Further, the Government ought to satisfy themselves that whatever money has been given to the tribal authorities has been spent profitably, but the tribal authorities and their secretaries have no experience or
MR. E.
PINYANA: Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , I stand up to collaborate what the hon . the Minister of Roads has said . He read his policy statement telling us exactly what has been done in the 26 districts. He even went on to give details of the number of miles of road constructed
knowledge . In the Estimates of Expenditure it is mentioned that money will be spent on such- and- such a road or that such-andsuch a bridge will be constructed . We
and mentioned the particular roads which had been gravelled . What more do you require ? There has long been a complaint about the roads . He said that labour is
expected the policy speech for this year to indicate which roads have been put into order and which bridges have been constructed , but that is not the case . In his policy speech the hon. Minister mentioned that because of the absence of technicians and skilled labour there are some works
scarce . What more do you expect , when the labourers who work there are those who cannot go to the labour centres on account of their health? They are affected by the dust on the roads on which they work. The roads are being maintained properly in the Transkei , but it must be borne in mind that roads will never be perfect. You will remember that in the time of the old General
which have not been completed . Why did the Minister start work when he knew he did
193.
been said about them. Why are you worried? You are old and the Government ought to
Council the complaint was always the same . These roads are sometimes ruined by heavy rains . You know perfectly well that a road may be repaired and then the rains come and the surface is washed off. You know that
certain
sections
give you an old age pension . (Laughter) That is why you think 50 cents a day is a good wage , because when you began to teach you only received that a quarter. There is one other matter I would like the hon. Minister to take note of. Would he
of these roads may
become impassable and gangs are often joined together to try and repair such sections. The people in the area from which the gang has been borrowed then complain that the roads are not being repaired in their area. Most people do not know much about roads . Let the hon . the Minister of Roads carry his work. Maintain your roads in the usual way and the people are saying. I next year they will sing the carry on and do your own
never know same work.
please spend the R109,000 increase in . trying to put the roads in better condition and would he also try to raise the wages of the labourers on the roads . There are European people who work on the roads in their own territories but they are paid a living wage .
mind what that even song. Just I take off
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are talking nonsense . I wish you were a treasurer .
my hat now for the good policy speech you have made .
MR. LUWACA: What you are receiving as a stipend is being wasted .
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to note that when I rise the Government side is quietened, because small dogs normally fear a bulldog. (Laughter) I would like to speak well on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads , because I note he listens to what is said to him. Last year we mentioned that when he put up schools the floors were of cement and there were no
CHIEF W. LUDIDI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will not be long in my remarks , I stand up to encourage the hon . the Minister of Roads and I beg him to carry on . In regard to the narrow bridges , they were built by the Republican Government long ago . I know the Transkei bridges , which are wide enough . Even the roads which have been built recently are wide enough. I would understand if you said you were making a request for a grader to grade a particular road that is bad, but you are not talking like that. You are just rotating around the same axis . Let us now go forward and not remain on one point. I just want to comment on what has been said
ceilings. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are telling lies . You specialize in telling lies. MR. LUWACA : This year, however , I find that a school they had erected was floored and it had a ceiling as well . The school at Buntingville has a cement floor.
abcut the pay of the labourers on the roads . It seems to me you need to be reminded now and again that there has been an improvement. These labourers used to work
We are not merely trying to catch votes . We want to mention such things as are true . What I say about the school is true . To go further, I would like the hon. Minister to note that there are some very narrow roads in rather dangerous jections) THE
DEPUTY
places.
CHAIRMAN:
hard and dig with picks. They had no machinery but today there is mechanisation and everything is done by machine . However, now they are being paid better than they were then . What do you think of the 25 cents a day they got when they dug with picks ?
(Inter-
Order,
MR . LUWACA: What about the high cost of living?
MR . LUWACA : In these narrow winding roads it is very difficult for two cars to pass in opposite directions on the road . In some places the roads are so bad that at the bends there are no supports at the side
CHIEF LUDIDI : I would request you to ask the hon . the Minister of Roads and
please.
Works to ask the Chief Minister to give him some money . (Interjections) THE please .
to stop a car from turning over. For example , if you travel from the Tsitsa to Shawbury it is very easy for the car to turn over at the roadside . We wish the hon. Minister to take note of this by putting up these supports at the side of the road . Such efforts will help save lives on the roads . Would the
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
CHIEF LUDIDI : I do not want to divert, Mr. Chairman, but the hon . Mr. Mazwi said something about ladies who were employed on the roads , but he did not say what could be done about it.
hon. Minister please stop attending only to the roads leading to Qamata? I note that at Qamata 18.8 miles of road have been prepared and in no other area has such mileage been done . In truth our roads are very bad. I shall not refer to the wages paid to the labourers because much has
MR. L.T. MAZWI: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , we are discussing the policy statement of the Minister of Roads . We are not on the policy to which I referred . Could we concentrate on the vote for the Depart-
194.
ment of Roads and Works? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : carry on.
MR. RAJUILI: Is building roads for the people of the Transkei playing the fool ? How irresponsible of you! I am waiting for your answer .
All right,
CHIEF LUDIDI : Mr. Chairman , as I said, I will not be long . I was merely commenting on what he was talking about then .
is not being made but we wonder whether the people who are building these roads know anything about making good roads .
policy speech here on page 8 he talks about his Department's interest in streetmaking in the Bantu townships . I am aware that the general lay-out is made when a township is to be erected , and I will come to that part of the policy of his department later - that the Department has interested itself in making streets in townships which are not there . Mr. Chairman, much has been said about the road signs . In fact , we have seen a few small planks or pieces of tin , I think about 8 inches by 3½ inches , which
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where are the good roads?
MR. RAJUILI: Now, this policy speech shows lack of able and qualified people for putting up good roads . You cannot deny that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you know about roads? You stay in the location in Johannesburg.
are supposed to be road signs , but when you look at the money set aside for the small dog's-tongue size of the signs that money is too much . The loaned Secretaries of this Department are able people. Would the hon. Minister ask them to indicate the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I will remind you again that you are off the track. MR . RAJUILI : On page 24 the hon. Minister says the drivers drivers are becoming more experienced . Has this Department been employing inexperienced or learner drivers ?
mileage, please , on these road signs .
MR .
RAJUILI :
The
hon .
the
is
CHIEF B. HOLOMISA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to confirm the policy statement of the hon . the Minister of Roads . I do not intend to go very far because I am not used to argument, more so when I realise that people are not going very far . I fail to understand why a man should not be praised when he has done well , because it is the practice that when one has done something one is not usually praised in his lifetime , I feel that the repair of these roads is similar to the polling stations where voting is done quickly . I realise that we do not seem to appreciate the work that is done by these Ministers , but if some of us got into their positions we would realise . That is why I feel I
Chief
Minister says mileage should be indicated only on the national roads . There is no law that says other roads .
it cannot be
indicated on
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is the money to come from? I haven't got money for everything .
MR .
RAJUILI :
The
trouble with him
is that he is not doing the right thing with the Government of the Transkei . The Republican Government told you not to worry about the money. It is there . You have so much surplus every year .
cannot be repeating the same things lest I go wrong. If I were the Chairman I would
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are too easily taken off the track to other things. Get back to the subject.
say we must end this discussion. (Laughter) MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will be brief in my speech concerning the road vote . Referring to the hon , the Minister of Roads and Works I would like to say that ever since he took over some of these roads the state of the roads is worse than before . He should note that we know something about these roads which were taken over from the Provincial
MR . RAJUILI : We thought you did well in your Department . Don't mar it now. The hon. the Minister of Roads should go to the Chief Minister because there is money . THE CHIEF MINISTER : hope .
Money for
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , we compare roads when going from place to place and one can see there are some good roads in the Transkei , but those that are under the Government of the Transkei in particular are still bad. We do not say an attempt
know whether to say quarrelled with him last year or with his roads , and before I start on this year's speech I would like to say it is gratifying to note that at least something has been done on the roads concerned. Still , that does not mean that all is well with the Transkei roads. In his
Mileage
MINISTER :
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are of the track again.
MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been presented with a policy speech by the hon . the Minister of Roads and Works . Some of us , I don't
THE CHIEF MINISTER : for the national roads .
THE CHIEF road signs ?
You have a
195.
Administration . When the roads were under the Provincial Administration they were
because after the rains it was difficult to cross owing to the fact that the bridges were under water . We are also grateful for the signposts that have been put up . Mr. Chairman , we have been discussing this for a long time . We wish to thank the hon. the Minister of Roads for helping to build
passable at any time , but since the hon . Minister took over these roads become quite impassable as soon as it rains. I say this with conviction and I hope he will take it into consideration. He has given us a report about the various regions . When comparing the mileage of the roads constructed I have discovered that the work done is much less than expected. He said that the mileage of the roads constructed is less than one hundred miles and the roads which have been gravelled is about
schools . People have been experiencing a hard time in renting school buildings . It is a fact that not enough schools have been erected, but we hope in future that more schools will be erected . We also wish to thank the hon . Minister for assisting people who work in the forests by building them houses .
one hundred. I am not quite sure of the figures , but it is about that. It is noteworthy that the roads leading to the forests are far better than the roads used by the public .
MR. A. RAZIYA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to put right a few things , but I am afraid to speak much because I have been threatened that my bus service will be taken away . (Laughter) However , that does not mean much to me. I shall not
I hope that the hon . Minister will take into consideration the fact that the roads used should be up to standard . I do not know if the reason is that there is not enough machinery or whether it is due to the in-
dispute the fact that some effort has been made to put the roads right . (Interjections) I am quite certain that that effort will be continued . We would , however , like the Department to take things in their right order . There are some roads , such as the road from here to Kambi which has been
efficiency of the workers. One speaker said that the road from Tsolo to the home of the Minister of Roads is wonderful . I would like that road , if that is so, to go further instead of stopping at your house . That will help the people as a whole and people who come from Qumbu will have a short cut to your place . That is one of the roads that was supposed to be on the maps because it is an important road. Something has been said about the tribal authorities being given some assistance . We shall appreciate that. To add to that we should like an efficient
out of use for the last three or four months . Similarly the road at Nqwasa is in very bad repair and I have seen similar roads elsewhere as I travel by car from place to place . If I should make unpleasant remarks , however, you will pardon me but I should mention these things . There is one thing I would like noted. The drivers of the Ministers' cars have always been behind the wheel ever since they started this work. It is true that if the Minister drove his own vehicle he would get into trouble . We would like
man to be appointed in your Department to go to the tribal authorities and shake them up so that more work is done . We notice that the road from Tozela to Moore's Post is under consideration and it was not on the map . We appreciate that something is going to be done to wards putting
these drivers to be given a little holiday. (Interjections)
it right. I would like to discuss the question of overseers. We would like them to visit THE the various regions frequently so that the work can proceed. It is very important that your Department should communicate with
enable the regular drivers to have a holiday. Don't forget that what is painful to you is also painful to another man. We also would advise that the wage paid to these drivers be raised a little because we constantly
that you should take into account that such roads should be widened.
MGUDLWA:
Mr.
Order,
by his official driver . It is necessary to have a relief driver for each Minister to
tackled . We are aware that this Department has just recently taken over, and that it also has loopholes here and there , but if we show each other there will be much progress in the work. Much has been said. about the narrow roads and I wish to stress
K.
CHAIRMAN:
MR . RAZIYA: They are people and the Minister is driven home every weekend
the tribal authorities so that you can discuss with each other how the work should be
CHIEF
DEPUTY
please .
hear complaints that they are not very well paid, and because they are driving for such important members of the Transkei Government they ought to be paid a decent wage . I Iwould like the hon . Minister further to note that a road used by the public buses is a very important one . Those buses daily
Chairman
and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads . His report is very good. I also want to thank the last speaker for his very fine speech . He showed the progress made by your Department. Truly speaking , the roads in the Transkei have been repaired satisfactorily. Some of them have been
carry hundreds and hundreds of people , and the insurance companies also suffer financially because they pay a high premium to the Government for their insurance policies and the bus -owners also pay a high premium . There is one bus-owner who pays R25,000 per month for the licences of his
widened because they were very narrow. Bridges have also been constructed . We had great difficulties with the low bridges
196 .
3. NOW THEREFORE this Assembly in terms of sub- section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 recommends -
buses. (Interjections) I would like the hon. the Minister of Roads to attend to this in a sympathetic manner . Public transport drivers in these big work centres are given a certain bonus by the Government so that
(a) the confirmation by the State President of a new sub-chieftainship in Qumbu district, for the following administrative areas :-
they can continue this public service they are rendering . You must note that the railway department does not pay as much for their buses as we pay for our private buses . We want the Government to take note of this because we pay a lot for our buses . I hope Mr. Chemane's public service will also grow
No. No. No. No. No. No.
and be more useful to the public . We would like the bus owners to receive a subsidy because they are rendering an important service to the people . We would like our Transkei Government to take note of this . That is not all . We ewuld like the hon . the Minister of Roads to subsidise the small Bantu farmers .
6 called Upper Tyira 10 called Nkonkweni Caba 11 99 Shukunxa 12 "" 13 Sulenkama 14 Gqukun qa ""
the State President should confirm the designation of Isaac Matiwane as sub-chief of the said administrative areas .
(b) that
(Laughter) We would like the people of the Transkei to progress. Let us not regard these things as ajoke . Let us march forward . There is something else I would like to refer to in regard to the cars used by the Ministers . You are not always going to be Ministers in these departments , and you are using these Government cars for your own political campaigns , whereas we use our cars and have to find all the money we need . (Laughter)
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE
MINISTER
OF
ROADS
AND
WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move that the House resolve itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF Mr. Chairman , I second.
It may very well be that he drives along merely to make an inspection , but we want to make it quite clear that we are complaining about these cars being used for olitical purposes . The debate was adjourned .
AGRICULTURE :
Agreed to. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I thought that motions would not be allowed in today, but I see there is a motion coming from the Government side .
House Resumed
The Deputy Chairman reported progress.
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you are late , hon. member. I have already asked for the Deputy Chairman to take the chair. You should have asked that question earlier.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 17th May , 1967 .
House in Committee WEDNESDAY, 17TH MAY, 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
The debate on Vote 6 , Department of Roads and Works , was resumed .
a.m.
Prayers were read. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the hon . Mr. K.G. Nota to move his amendment in connection with this vote .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
MR . C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the absence of the hon. Mr. Nota , he has asked me to act on his behalf in this regard and I therefore take the opportunity to do so. Mr. Chairman, the amendment relates to the reduction of the
NOTICE OF MOTION . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice to move, with the leave of this House :-
remuneration payable to the Minister of this Department . This gives an opportunity, particularly to this side of the House , to point out certain things to the hon . Minister so that he will be aware of the duties he
1. THAT WHEREAS the Emboland Regional Authority has in terms of sub-section ( 1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) resolved · that a sub-chieftainship be created
should carry out. Reference has been made points of his
in respect of administrative areas Nos .
to the policy speech and various have been selected in criticism speech. I shall therefore refer to matters which were not raised in the
6, 10 , 11 , 12, 13 and 14 in Qumbu district and that Isaac Matiwane be designated sub-chief over the said six administrative areas ,
a few debate .
It was noted in his speech that he referred to the hiring out of bulldozers to the tribal authorities SO that they can use these
2. AND WHEREAS this resolution entails the creation of a new sub-chieftainship in the Transkei ,
machines for the repair of the roads under
197 .
their care. I have noted further that this Department has taken on as part of their duties such roads as those leading to
of the Government.
Lambasi and to the plantations at Magwa . It is surprising that the Government does not also take these roads which are still under the care of the tribal authorities , for these tribal authorities have no technical knowledge as regards the repair and maintenance of roads. I would say further that such authorities very often do not realise how important a route is in their area. There are certain roads which are under the care of the tribal authorities leading to the
merely to give the impression to such tourists that the Transkei as a whole is just like that area. This gives us the impression that our Government is not prepared to start by uplifting the economic level of the people before it undertakes far-fetched schemes . Further, the roads in the Transkei are very narrow and in the building of these roads there is a ridge in the centre which falls away towards the sides of the road. Because of the narrow nature of these roads it is very difficult for a public transport bus to pass an ordinary private car . In wet weather the travel-
schools , and such roads are very important . There are other roads which have not been taken over by this Department and they are still under the care of the regional authorities . I did mention the roads leading to the plantations which have been taken over by the Department. The plantations are regarded as bringing in revenue . Such plantations therefore should have enough money to be able to maintain the roads in and
ler is forced to stop because he cannot pass . MR. J. BUSAKWE: second the amendment .
leading to such plantations , whereas the roads which I have mentioned leading to schools are used by the people and the people are not a money-making concern . I note that the tribal authorities are expected to have some funds of their own . I also
maintain their roads. If I am right , such a subsidy is a mere token. Does the hon. the Minister of Roads not consider that it
has been said against the policy statement of the hon. Minister. The last speaker seemed to stress the point of a road to his particular area, and I must advise the
would be possible to maintain these roads in serviceable condition and to authorize the regional authority to pay a certain amount of money into the treasury of this Department so that the Department can look after the roads? I feel this would be a better
members that when they appear they should remember that they represent the whole of the Transkei and not their particular little vicinity. (Interjections) Perhaps this is a relic of the old Bunga days when a man was concerned only with the road in his particular area. The mover of the amendment erroneously compared the road to his home
method of maintaining those roads in good condition . There is a road which, during the time of the Bunga , was a very good road in our area. 1
with roads such as those leading to Lambasi and the Magwa plantations.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The one leading to your home. MDA:
MR . MDA: Where do you get the idea that it was my road? You are talking nonsense as usual.
The hon. the Minister of
Agriculture says it is the road leading to my homestead. Before coming to this present
THE please .
session I had correspondence with the Department about that road. As this particular road leads to the school I think it is important because it is the road used by Government servants to go to this school . THE MINISTER OF It goes to Mda's home.
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN :
Order,
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will not be put off by him, Mr. Chairman. How he compares that road , I do not know. Lambasi road is a national road of the
AGRICULTURE :
Transkei , and he compares that road with the road to his school , which is a lower primary school which is visited only once a year by the circuit inspector. I don't know what other people will think about it because he is not the owner of a car but
MR . MDA: The hon . Minister says that this road leads just to Mda's home and therefore the Government should not spend money on it . I regard this interjection by the hon. Minister Chairman, but bility is his am trying to roads leading Jarvif
Mr. Chairman , I
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to oppose the amendment , but in the main to support the policy of the hon. Minister. I will have finished before the time allotted to me because there is not so much which
note that there is a subsidy from this Government to the regional authorities to
MR .
As regards the road
leading to Lambasi , this is my opinion Lambasi is like the window-dressing we see in shops when we walk down the streets here , with a view merely to showing overseas tourists what the Government is doing. The roads leading there are being maintained
only a Scotch cart which has wheels about five feet above the ground which can easily negotiate that terrible road which he has pictured to this House . (Laughter) Now Lambasi and other projects like Qamata have been given special consideration by
as utterly irresponsible , Mr. it appears that irresponsisecond nature . (Laughter) I make a comparison of the to income-bringing sections .
198.
is washed away to the sea by the shortest possible route . And then you lay the blame on the hon. the Minister of Roads for that. Well, if that is the case then I cannot appreciate your mentality. This Department is in charge of all the other five districts, including his own . It reminds me of Shakespear's lines to the effect that a bitter sky
the Department of Roads and Works , and we have nothing but praise for the Department for doing so because there is reason for it. The roads there carry three or four or even ten times as much traffic as the other road the hon. member refers to . He was honest enough to say that Lambasi and other projects are a showcase of the Transkei , but what trader will not open a road to his store so that he can sell the
does not bite as hard as man's ingratitude . (Laughter)
goods to the traveller? Evidently he has a very poor idea of the value of that project to the Transkei as a whole because we can attract tourists · in fact, we have attracted tourists from all over the world ... (Interjections) THE please .
DEPUTY
CHAIRMAN:
MR . J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think we have nearly all agreed that our roads are in bad repair, but there is not a suggestion as to what should be done to remedy this. (Interjections) They will continue to be bad for the next ten years . Our advice to the hon . Minister is that he approach the Minister of Finance and ask for scholarships to be granted to students who will be trained in
Order,
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....and they have been loud in their praises of the road to Lambasi and what they have seen there , and also at Qamata ; and in the not far distant future we hope to collect much revenue from these tourists when we
the technique of building roads , just as the hon. the Minister of Justice has done . You will note that you have over 50 loaned technicians , but we don't find any people of your own who are prepared to step into the shoes of the se technicians . We therefore
develop these places into tourist attractions . Erroneously and stupidly enough , he says that the forests should maintain themselves , but he has mistaken the idea of the vote altogether. This vote which maintains these roads in the plantations comes from Roads and Works and it could
suggest that to encourage your own people you ought to approach the Minister of Finance for assistance in this connection , starting at Junior Certificate level and on to Matric. The roads in the Transkei number over one hundred, which means that you
never be of benefit to any other vote. It could never augment any other vote , and
ought to have properly trained technicians to look after them . You probably think you would need a large amount of money to do
surely we are a money- spinning department so far as the department is concerned, and the Department of Roads and Works has never come to us to ask us to maintain our own roads in the forests.
this , but when you build a foundation you spend a lot of money so that what you build on it will last a long time . This is the advice I give to you. To pass on to the building section , there also the same
MR . MDA: So you admit you would be
applies , although we have some trained builders . May I now refer to the trucks used by your Department. It is a great pity that one finds a truck standing by the roadside for about three months with nothing being done to it , then on a certain day a car arrives and the officials , whoever they may be , look at this truck and then leave it as before . After about another month they come to attend to the truck. May I ask , if trucks are left by the roadside for so long, when are they expected to do the work? If your Departmental garages are too busy, why don't you ask the local garages to attend to your trucks ? I will now refer to the five
able to maintain your own roads? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I don't think we would be able to maintain our roads with our revenue because those roads have got to be specially made and macadamized and all the ingenuity and experience put into them to maintain them according to the amount of traffic which they have to carry. Now, coming to the first speaker , who slashed the Department of Roads and Works - the hon. sub-chief Majeke · he gave one the impression that he has an ulterior motive , which was perhaps not quite unwise because he was looking forward to the 1968 elections when he might contest a seat against the hon. Minister of Roads and works , as all signs point in that direction . Now, Mr. Chairman , the hon. member seems to have localized his criticism to the hon . Minister's residence (Interjections) and in most of the criticisms that were raised in this House , they should have been quite easily disposed of by approaching the local depot we have in this Department. You do not expect the Department of Roads to control weather conditions , for as soon as a road has been cleared a storm comes and all that soil
zones connected with the Roads Department. I do not know how work is carried out by these zones because you will find that the officer in any area will go to one area, remove the team there and place it in another area before the work is completed in that first area. The road is then left unfinished and the team is taken to quite a different road, when you ought to carry out the work to the finish. (Interjections ) I am not talking about washaways , I am talking of ordinary road repairs . I hope that the hon. Minister will take this advice and be able to do his work as we have advised . The hon . Minister has asked that an in199 .
crease of the money allowed him should be given, to the extent of R634,000 , and I note that all the items in your Department require more money. If you would take the increase that you are asking for and use it to train technicians it would be better
the different aspects of my Department and I thought it would satisfy the members , and in that regard I do not propose to dwell any further on the aspects of my policy speech. Roads generally in the Transkei are very good.
spent. (Interjections) when you make your estimates , do so to the bone and not in
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
general . P/CHIEF
B.
SIGCAU :
Mr.
Chairman
and hon. members , we are discussing the roads and I stand up to support the hon . the Minister of Roads. I have personally travelled over 28 tribal roads in Pondoland during this last by-election. During those travels I was exceptionally satisfied with the condition of the roads . I am speaking the truth . The roads are very good indeed . In fact , they have been good ever since I was the presiding officer in the T.T.A. (Laughter) Then they were under the regional authorities and now they have been handed over to the present Government, and they are very good now · wonderfully good. You are not fair to the Government when you say the roads are bad. Another thing which has been mentioned is the signs on the roads. There are signs in the Qaukeni area and they will come to your areas . Dont' be in a hurry . I regret that
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: This is an axiom which is echoed throughout the length and breadth of the whole country. We have field staff maintaining the roads all over the districts , supervising operations , and we have assistant foremen in charge of the roads all over and they always report to the Department monthly or weekly, as the case may be. The Department is therefore well informed of the position in the country . These men know their work well . When conditions generally deteriorate we are always well informed in the Department, and people from the general public also inform the Department of the condition of the roads . The Department maintains contact with its services at all times . I am not going to deal with the general abuse levelled at my Department. I know that some of this stems from feuds , perhaps, which we are not concerned with in this House . I will now deal with the matters raised by the hon . Chief Majeke . In his speech he stated that the Department had failed totally to render service to the country. I wish to inform him that this is not substantiated by facts . He has dealt mostly with roads in his area, whereas we are looking forward to a general view of the conditions obtaining in the Transkei. He stated that he had not seen
there are still people who hate what I like . I like the things like Lambasi and yet there are people who say it is a mere showcase . The roads to Lambasi are very good indeed . You might even think that tar had been used . (Interjections) As I say , I do not see why the salary of the Minister should be reduced, because he is doing his work well . There is no need for it. Anyone who says that is keen to take the seat of this Minister something which will never happen . (Laughter) The hon . Chief Majeke has pointed out, many criticisms of this Department, but I think he was merely doing that for the sake of talking. I do not think it comes from his heart of hearts . (Interjections) When you are through with your speaking , let me know. As I say, we have long discussed this question and you have said all that is in your hearts . You were allowed to say whatever you wanted to say , but I still say the roads are very good indeed. Thank you , Mr. Chairman .
a grader for a period of over four years. CHIEF MAJEKE : Not four years . You are asleep. I said four months . THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Even if it is , as he says , four months , I must inform him that he must not think that the Transkei Government is in a position to compete with the Provincial Administration which has all the plant it needs . The Provincial Administration maintains a unit in a certain section of about twenty miles for a whole year at a time and they have been doing that for years . We are unable to do that because our funds are small. We are also as interested in the health of the people as he is , and that is why we maintain these roads in as good a condition as we can. He has mentioned that the road between Qumbu and Katkop was in a bad state . I do not think it is as bad as he states . Members
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members of the House , I am now closing the debate and I will call upon the hon . Minister to reply. MR . MDA: On a point of procedure , Mr. Chairman, it is usual to allow one speaker from the Government side and one from the
must be aware that we have had heavy rains all along and the roads have deteriorated . He also stated that we must invite
Opposition side . The on the Goverment side .
Transkeian citizens from , say , the Reef and give them a lot of money. I wish to state that if they are builders they are welcome to the Transkei and contracts are He also mentioned constantly available. roads encroaching on the grazing lands . I wish to inform him that Government roads have certain widths. Some are 40 feet and
THE already
last
speaker was
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have called on the Minister to reply.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in my policy speech yesterday I outlined all
some are 80 feet, so there is no question
200 .
of encroaching . I now come to the hon. member, Chief T.N. Ndamase , who mentioned that some of the schools were like stables . I must inform him that those schools were built by communities and
do more than its share . I thank you , Mr. Chairman, and I move that the vote be passed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I shall now put the amendment by the hon . Mr. K.G. Nota.
therefore they are the responsibility of the community. The Government builds schools today and the Government is prepared to maintain those schools . I must also inform the hon . Chief that I will spare him just
The amendment was lost by 36 votes to
56.
because I respect him very much . The remarks he made yesterday about the hon . the Chief Minister and the Minister of Roads
The sum of R3,839,000 under Vote 6 , Department of Roads and Works , was passed to stand part of the schedule .
telling the people a lot of lies were not true . I would also like to inform him that guiding stones at all bends are put up on important roads . The hon . member, Miss Twetwa · I must also inform her that it is natural for roads to deteriorate after wet weather or heavy rains and if cars get
Clauses
The total amount of R18,937,000 was passed to stand part of the Bill,
bogged and stuck on the road it cannot be helped . We have an overall length of about 6,000 miles of road in the Transkei . That is as far as going to the United Kingdom overland . I wish the hon . members would exercise some patience because it is im-
The whole Bill put and agreed to. House Resumed
man,
possible with so many roads to repair and maintain them in a short time . She also com-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. ChairI wish to report that the Transkei
Appropriation Bill , 1967 , has been passed by this House without amendment .
plained about the road to Shawbury being narrow and that the drifts were also bad. I wish to inform her that the road to Shawbury is in a good state . She may be right in saying that some of the drifts are bad, but all that will be attended to in good time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. : Chairman and hon . members , the third reading will take place tomorrow morning .
Regarding the wages of labourers , I wish to inform her that basically an amount of 50 cents a day is paid to labourers , but an increment is allowed of 5 cents per day. Also , the time worked by the labourer, whether on the mines or elsewhere , is taken into account and he is allowed 5 cents a
:
1 to 4 of the Appropriation
Bill were passed to stand part of the Bill.
AFTERNOON SESSION.
The Assembly resumed
at
2.15 p.m.
SUBSIDY ON PURCHASE OF PROPERTIES BY AFRICANS.
year for that, so that a labourer actually starts at about 70 or 80 cents usually . I must also commend the hon. Mr. Luwaca for his good debate on the matter of roads . The hon. Mr. Jafta wishes the Department to make field staff available to the tribal authorities . I must inform the House that
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we shall now return to Motion No. 2 by the hon. Mr. B.S. Rajuili . In my view the members have discussed this motion at length and I shall now call upon the mover to reply. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , if indeed the members of this Assembly have forgotten this motion and what was said about it, I do not blame them after having milled through these dull policy speeches of this chunk of Ministers here.
the Department, as I said in my policy speech , is willing to offer assistance to anybody, whether tribal authorities or regional authorities . It is the policy of my Department to widen the roads according to the standards laid down in the Act. I am saying this in connection with the remarks made by the hon . member from Qaukeni . As regards roads to schools it happens sometimes that these roads fall under the purview of the tribal authority and it is most unfortunate that tribal authorities do not seem to concern themselves with their
Nevertheless I will whip particularly that dull side to bring them to their sense of what we were saying last before we got to the policy speeches . The motion seeks to face reality in the applicable practicality of the policy of separate development as rejected by the people for reasons that prove beyond doubt that even in the zoned
duties . It is always necessary for tribal authorities to compile estimates and send them to the Chief Minister requiring funds for certain roads. I appreciate the fact that most of these tribal authorities are in their
areas where they were promised , it is not possible for our people to acquire properties for business or other purposes .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where have you ever seen public funds used for such
initial stages , but it is necessary for them to make up their minds and shoulder their responsibilities . In all , Mr. Chairman , I must say that my Department is willing to help as much as we can , but it cannot
purposes? MR. RAJUILI: Here is the hon. the Chief Minister asking me where have we
201.
seen
this,
because
the
Government ,
in-
should have done was to add that part of the land in towns to the Transkei , because we would have been grateful for any square inch of land.
cluding his own Government, has considered that there are times when people may not be able even to send their children to school , and you pay their money for nothing. Anyway, this Government perhaps once in a while is innocent in so far as they were concerned, because it is not theirs . They were not consulted and they did not make any contribution whatsoever. It is altogether a Republican Government project. Now, you must not be stupid . We are not asking you to put anything into it. We are asking the people who have the money . We are
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Your leader does not think that. MR. RAJUILI: It is for that reason that we ask on behalf of those people who have sent us here , and not those who do not know why they are here .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is for that reason you are not coming back .
asking the Government that knows perfectly well the financial disabilities of our people.
MR. RAJUILI : You are not a chief. We
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why come to us?
are pleading on behalf of these people . If all the towns in the Republic were zoned we would even like to buy in Houghton in Johannesburg. It is for those reasons we feel the people of the Transkei should not be
Go to them.
MR. RAJUILI : When a path has got stones and pebbles and holes in it we have to walk on that path to get where we want to go. We are not coming to you · we are only walking past you.
bluffed and promised things that are beyond their means . I want to address myself to our chiefs now and leave this stupid Government. (Laughter) If indeed there is any measure of sincerity in the Republican Government that has asked you to support
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Then why do you come and make a noise here?
MR.
RAJUILI:
Whatever this
the policy of separate development by these measures of zoning , they should have been sincere enough to place it on a level where the subjects are able to afford it. (Interjections)
Govern-
ment says the people of the Transkei would like to avail themselves of this opportunity. The younger generation would like to avail
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
themselves of these opportunities . (Interjections) You have given yourselves lots of money which you do not even know how to use . You are building a location of Ministers over there . (Laughter) You will
MR . RAJUILI: We have been told by the Republican Government that we should not look anywhere else for financial assistance , but that we should get the money from them .
not even consider the people so that they could have money to buy these properties . It is beyond an ordinary , average African in the Transkei , or indeed anywhere else even in Johannesburg where we feel we are a great city where people build houses better than those you are building · even those people are not able to buy some of these properties. Subsidisation by a Government of a nation like this is not anything new. The farmers are subsidised by the Government on many a thing in South Africa · White farmers I refer to . Umtata is zoned
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Leave this alone . We have got the brains to see to it. MR. RAJUILI : We are asking this therefore from a responsible Government. It is needless to say that even the 25 per cent which remains for us will be difficult to get, in spite of the block of stupidity that we get from that side of the House . This BIC would be able to stand aside then rather than to come and buy the Transkei on pretext that it is for the children and children's children of the Transkei . Africans are tired of these parents who
and people would like to buy some of these properties . We do not want to go and buy these old shops which the hon . the Chief Minister, when the truth was in his chest, advised the people of the Transkei not to
the the We are
always so generous to keep things from us that we cannot reach . We do not want the
buy.
BIC may and then
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you told the country you do not want zoning.
to keep anything that we can buy. It just as well buy all the zoned areas the shops and keep them to itself, we shall be bluffed that they are being
kept for the Africans when they have means . How are we to have means when the " kierie "
MR . RAJUILI: There are many things that our people in this country have told the Government they do not want, but these things have been thrust down their throats . Once a thing has become law what alternative have you? As I have said at the
is hanging above our heads ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What "kierie" is that?
MR . RAJUILI: The "kierie " of influx control that makes it impossible for the
beginning, if there was any sincerity in the policy of separate development , what they
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Africans to sell their labour in the open market. I therefore move that the House
the hon. the Chief Minister states is not similar at all to what is in this motion . The way the motion reads here is entirely different from what he states , because in this motion we request the Republican Government to give us the date . On that account the date to which he refers , the 5th May , 1967 , stands aside because of a subsequent statement to the effect that the Republican Government should give us a date on which it is prepared to grant independence .
see reason and support this motion . THE SECRETARY: The question before the House is a motion by the hon . Mr. B.S. Rajuili, to which an amendment was moved by the hon . the Minister of Education . I shall put the question: Those in favour of retaining the words proposed to be deleted?
The retention of the words proposed to be deleted was lost by 36 votes to 57.
THE CHAIRMAN : I think the mover is quite in order, hon . members , considering the terms of the alternative .
The substitution of the words proposed to the amendment was carried by 57 votes to 36.
The motion
as
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I have moved .
amended was carried
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: You are out of order. Sit down . You must respect the Chairman.
by 58 votes to 38. GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI.
THE CHAIRMAN : You can write down you amendment. Moreover, this motion was considered by the business committee and the business committee included it on the order paper. I also agree with its decision that the motion should be considered by
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , before the hon . member is allowed (if he is allowed at all ) to move this motion , I just want to say that it should be struck off the agenda paper . I will draw the attention of this House to rule 38 of the rules of this House which reads as follows : "It shall be out of order to attempt to reconsider a specified question on which the Assembly has taken a decision during any previous session , except on a substantive motion to rescind that decision made with the permission of the Chairman . " The facts and principles involved in this motion are the same as you will find in a motion which was introduced in this House by the hon. member during the 1966 session , (you will find this on page 90 of the Hansard) which reads as follows : " That in the opinion of this House the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei . "
the Assembly. MR . SINABA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I am thoroughly disgusted to discover that the motion I have placed before the House instils fear and the source from which it comes cannot be accounted for. The reason why I proposed this motion is because I would like to place this before the people of the Transkei in this House , because the whole of the Transkei yearns for independence. They further would like to know the reason why independence should not be granted to them . I am therefore desirous that all the members in this House should state it clearly and specifically why we should not be granted independence. We have been coming to this Parliament now for a few years , but there has been no difference in our lives . Our desire is that the Bantu people should be accorded the privilege accorded to all the people in the world. It is our desire that we also be
I submit that the motion before the House , with the exception of that date which is past already, the 5th May , 1967 , is substantially the same as the motion which was before the House in 1966. I do not think I need elaborate on this, Sir , as it is clear. Even the date on which independence is called upon is already past , so we cannot consider a motion which calls for independence from the 5th May, 1967 .
MR .
afforded the privileges of livelihood such as are afforded other non-European people in this part of the world . We have these neighbouring states of Lesotho , Botswana and Swaziland all being accorded independence . I know that several of the members in this House are being terrorized by the statement that we have no funds . We do not want money , we want independence . To refer briefly to the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister as regards the
S.M. SINABA: It could be retro-
spective. THE CHIEF MINISTER: In any event, if my hon. friend says it can be retrospective then he supports my contention that the
Appropriation Bill of R18 million granted to the Transkei , this is granted to our Transkei to use over a period of twelve
motion before the House is substantially the same as he moved in 1966, and in terms of the rules I move that it be struck off the
months , at the end of which period all the money is finished . Indeed , after we have used the money as we wished to in purchasing things or in other ways , at the end of that all the funds have been paid back
agenda paper.
MR. S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman , what
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to the Republic an Government , whereas any
given independence. The Transkei Nation al Independence Party is the party that ought to fight this issue because they are a party seeking independence . That is why we require it to be specified clearly why we cannot acquire independence . The independence that is often brought to us is not
country depends for its economic stability on the money that comes from that nation itself. How can we have economic stability if whatever funds we have are sent back, in the economic exchange of the country , to the Republican Government? How can we have economic stability if we have nothing . in the Transkei that we can use as our own so that whatever money we have will come back to us? We have no self- supporting industries which will help us retain whatever we have, therefore the Government should not tell us that we have no funds
separate development. Independence means that you must make your own laws . In one of the speeches it was stipulated that we would have our laws and administer them , but the speaker did not specifically state who would make the laws . We wish to know what the people are expected to do if independence is opposed. We ought to support it . We have no rights even to the land on which we live . All the land rights came to an end in 1913. It is for those reasons that we wish it to be stated clearly why we cannot have these rights , because we are not told what we are at the present moment .
when they themselves do not show us how we can retain whatever money we have. Further, much has been said about education , but the kind of education that we expect to be given to us is adult education . The Transkei education is behind. How many among us here have really had a sound education? The kind of education we require is adult education which will point the way to the people towards advancement. We
(Interjections) What can be said to belong to us when we are told we are a free people? When we take a thorough look at the political parties in the Transkei we find that our constitutions and even our policies are
should be educated in how to spend the money, rather than pay it back to the Republican Government. The sum total of all this is that the people expect us to seek
not thoroughly understood by the people concerned, because you will find that in
independence. How can we attain independence when the people who are in the front line are telling people the impossibility of attaining independence? The people in the towns and labour centres are being
these parties there are rules and regulations stating what the members should do but because there is a desire from the people for independence the members do not tell them what they ought to hear. This was made clear during the by-elections when the members themselves went and organised at the polling booths . It is for those reasons , hon. members , that I place the matter before you for consideration . You know these things and you are aware of them. One chief states that we should not hurry to a pre-
turned out and in that process we hear no word of help and protection coming from our Government. There is no investigation being carried out as to how the people returned to the Transkei from the work centres will make a living for themselves . The hon. the Chief Minister has stated that the Transkei and the Republican Government wish to live harmoniously with one another. How can there be harmony when all the laws are made by the Republican Government, which is the government over the Transkei ? No bill has ever been discussed and enacted in this House . All the
cipice. When you were elected you stood for that principle . The people seek independence. You yourself want independence. The hon. member who states that the people want money is a treasurer of the TNIP but we would like to know how often he rendered his financial statement to his party and when he gave his annual financial statement and stated what the credit balance was .
laws, including Proclamation R.400 , come from the Republican Government. Very many people in the work centres desire to
One is surprised at the type of party which gives a financial statement of that nature . I appeal to you kinsmen , and I move that the Transkei be granted independence. I know you are afraid but be assured that nothing will happen to you . Seek independence . I do not want to attack anybody , but I would like you to have a clear perspective of the Bantu people in the Transkei. All the tribes are looking to us , particularly to the laws and regulations which may come out of this Parliament. All those things are on your shoulders . We need independence .
come home to the Transkei but no steps are taken by the Government to receive those people when they come home . We desire the Republican Government to give us that which belongs to us in the Republic so that we can bring home with us what ever we may have . In like manner the European who lives in the Transkei is given all that belongs to him when he leaves the Transkei . As far as the Bantu people are concerned that privilege is denied . The laws come only from one side. To put it in other words , the European is like a person who says no one must interfere in their
MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to second the motion.
internal affairs . There is nothing that we do in the Transkei where we can say: Tomorrow we shall continue to rule as we
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment to Motion 22 , that all the words after the word "Assembly" in the original motion be deleted and the following substituted therefor:-
wish. The laws are made by the Republican Government. The administration is according to the administration of the Republican Government everywhere . It is for all these reasons that we wish the Transkei to be
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Union of South Africa in 1910 it did not take South Africa less than 34 years to acquire what might be called a mere sove-
"the Transkei is not ripe for independence at this stage." Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in any country where there is parliamentary rule any person who is a member of parliament and who moves a motion is expected to give full motivation
reign status . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Make it 24 years.
and full reasons for having brought such a motion, but what have we been listening to this afternoon from the hon. member across the floor? We listened to an empty and childish speech which was devoid of anything which would lead a reasonable man to believe that the hon . member across the floor is honest. Last year he brought
THE CHIEF MINISTER: To remind you of your history, you duds across the floor, it was only in 1934 that South Africa acquired what might be called a sovereign state of independence , but even then it was still under the British Government until the year 1961 when the Republic of South Africa was declared. Now I want to put a question to a man whom we can liken as an agitator in this House . What is his
up the same arguments which he brought forward this afternoon . He has said nothing which would move this House to see that the circumstances have , since the moving of the 1966 motion , changed .
criterion? What is he trying to emulate in order to put forward a suggestion of this nature which he knows can never lead the
OPPOSITION MEMBER: He wants them to give the date.
Transkei to anything within the time he has put in his motion? We do get this type of talk from irresponsible people who are
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Just keep quiet. You are small boys. If this House is going to continue to discuss one motion every year with the same principles involved I think we shall be wasting the time of the House. The hon. member, having been influenced by a certain gentleman known as Udwin who was set by the Communists of
ignorant about essentials which lead countries to independence. We do get ignorant people standing up on their beds in the middle of the night calling for independence so that anybody can say we want " inkululeko " without knowing anything of its implications. Mr. Chairman, this Government has a Constitution which is its guide towards independence and we shall not be hoodwinked by any body, even if he comes from the dirty streets of Soweto in Johannesburg where you find politicians standing up in the streets saying they want independence . The Transkei itself has a constitu-
South Africa to disrupt the Government party, suddenly came up with a motion as if he was standing on his bed at night thinking of independence . This Udwin , this European from the Transvall , is a swindler who has taken the money of the people of the Transkei after having come with the hon. member to say they must plant castor seed. We cannot in any way imply that this hon. member was bribed by this gentleman in order that he must be instrumental in
tional development which should be its lesson . It was in 1911 when the council , which we would call preliminary constitutional bodies which would lead to what would be self-government, were started. It took almost twenty years before those councils even formed what was called the General United Transkeian Territories Council and it took another twenty years before another constitutional development step was taken towards what might be called government by the people of the Transkei in the establishment of Bantu authorities.
breaking the Government party on its set programme from self-government to independence . Fortunately , Mr. Chairman , the hon . member has been exposed during the last by-elections in that not a single one of his candidates who stood for his so- called policy got more than 500 votes ....
MR. DIKO : We had two thousand . OPPOSITION MEMBER: Chairman?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : .... in any of the Transkei districts. I want to assure him that the people of the Transkei are not the stupid people he assumes them to
Who was the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It was only four years ago that this Government, acting
be . The people of the Transkei are brainy enough to know what they want. The history of South Africa is their guide . We can trace the constitutional development of South Africa from the date when the white man
under leges put a what
this Constitution, enjoyed the priviof a self-governing state. I want to question to the hon. member as to are his motivations . What are the
essentials required for a completely independent state? As he is not in a position to give the country these I think I will come to his assistance . In 1961 South Africa
set his foot in this country, and we can sav that from that time it did not take them less than 300 years before South Africa acquired the full status of what can be called a republican government. ( Interjections )
decided to go to the people for a mandate to declare South Africa a republic .
MR. RAJUILI : Are you advising the Transkei to wait so long?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Which people? They did not come to us. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Even after the
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You were not
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had the opportunity of starting many things which would enable us to handle our own
a person under the Republican Government. You were just an animal, but in the Transkei we are people. OPPOSITION MEMBER: republic was imposed on us .
And
SO
affairs within the time he has put before us . We are trying by all means to get our young fellows educated in order to have
a
technical knowledge in matters which will require the Transkei citizens to see that this country is economically independent. For example, in an independent country like the Transkei only three citizens today are qualified to be magistrates. MR. RAJUILI: And still you won't make them magistrates .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: During that period South Africa became independent economically, and during that time South Africa could defend its lef against any other country. In terms of this Constitution certain departments do not fall under the Transkei Goverment....
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And that is in a country which the hon . member wishes to be declared independent last month. Where does he hope to get his civil servants from? Where does he hope to get the magistrates? Does he want to be a magistrate himself, although he failed J.C. ? (Laughter) If you think that when you are
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Why?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: .... and before the Government of the Transkei can think of requesting the Republican Government to grant independence we have got to move attaining all these towards cautiously departments. You were all present when the Prime Minister of the Republic made a public announcement during the opening of this Assembly to the effect that more departments were being considered by the Republican Government to be conferred on the Transkei Govemment. That is a result
independent you will get the white officials that you have today to be your subjects , you must forget about it. These seconded officials are loaned to us to educate us to a stage when we shall say we have the personnel and can take these duties over.
of motions which were put to this House by the Government during the 1966 session . We are not going to be dictated to by irresponsible people who have not studied the conditions in other countries . We are not
MR. RAJUILI: How many African magistrates are there in Basutoland or Botswana? Are those countries not independent ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You ask about Basutoland and Botswana. I am going to
prepared to put the Transkei people into a position in which we cannot extricate them. (Interjections) Just last year, next door to us, Basutoland was declared an independent country. What happened? Immediately that was done Great Britain said: We will not assist you with any more money · what we are giving you is sufficient. Then the trouble started . The Prime Minister was
tell you that in those countries the chiefs had unlimited jurisdiction . The chiefs are the magistrates of those countries and , as a matter of fact, I may even say that the magistrates in those countries have no judicial work whatsoever. MR . RAJUILI : Are those chiefs better than our chiefs?
compelled to raise the taxes of the people of Basutoland by 23 per cent. Do you want this Government to tax the people of the Transkei? The hon. member is shaking
CHIEF MINISTER: Take the THE Transkei where the chiefs were divested
his head. Now he must tell the people where the people of the Transkei will get the money once it ceases to fall under the
of those powers for quite a long time , and whom you on the other side would like deposed.
wing of the Republican Government at a time when the country is not economically viable. As a sensible Government we are building up a state gradually and with the lessons which we have studied from other countries. We have got to see that the Trans-
MR. RAJUILI: I am sitting between two chiers now. They are not going to be deposed .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What would be the position if you were to take over and make this country independent? What is happening in the North today? That should be a lesson to you , where the people rashly without any civil independence sought educated people , without any service ,
kei is industrially , educationally , politically developed. If you look across the floor you will find that there is only one man who has sense enough to understand what is going on, and that is the Leader of the Opposition. He is not going to support this because of his brains. Only two people who are rebels from both sides of the House, who want the country to believe that they have the brains to tell this House what must be done. Mr. Chairman, I wish that people should be sincere when they deal with important issues such as the motion before us today. I am sure the hon. member is aware that for a long time we have not
206 .
without any technicians . What is happening today? They have squandered all the money that is being paid by the people for the development of the country . Do you want that to happen to the Transkei? I want to assure you that the people of the Transkei are sensible enough and they cannot listen to a man from Benoni who wants to be the Prime Minister of the Transkei in 1968 , when they cannot even listen to a man
from Keiskamahoek.
that will aim at dividing us .'" This is a point I want you to mark: " Personally I may say that my nature is such that I want criticism because only in that way do we actually find our faults . I hope that if any criticism is levelled at me I will not only correct myself but also agree to work according to that criticism ." So said the hon. Paramount Chief of Westem Pondoland ,
MR. K.M. GUZANA: You just keep quiet now. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : When the time comes and when we sensible people on this side of the House who are the leaders of the people · you can see them. All the chiefs are on this side and they are the leaders of the people - we shall first go to
Paramount Chief Victor Poto . I am saying this because I know some hon. gentlemen
the people and have a referendum and ask them if they are ready for independence, and we shall ask the people if they are ready to foot the bill . Once the people say that as
on that side will jump up when we bring facts about them. What man in this House will ever believe the hon . the Chief Minister when he says the independence of Basutoland has called for taxes up to 20 per cent. That is a deliberately false statement and he knows it. The trouble is that some of these people are always misinformed by
long as they get independence we can tax them up to their necks , then we shall have no alternative but to obey the will of the people . But at present we know the pulse of the country because we have been going round holding meetings . We know what the people think . MR. RAJUILI : Who will you consult the people or the Republican Government? THE CHIEF MINISTER : We know the people appreciate what has been done by the Republican Government under this limited constitutional set-up . The people do not even know who this Mr. Sinaba is . He comes
somebody else , so I call upon him now, or anybody on that side , to show us in figures quoting that that statement is true , because I say it is false . (Interjections) The people of Basutoland have not been taxed any further than before . Only the rich people and the capitalists have had their taxes. raised, and it should be the case in this country . He says where will you get magistrates . Did you hear him say that? That is a question from a man who is obsessed by separate development policies . When we
to this Assembly and says he is representing the people .
talk of independence of the Transkei we are thinking of every human being in the Transkei, irrespective of his colour . We are not calling upon the Goverment to take away the Europeans . They must remain in the Transkei · those who are prepared to do so .
MR. RAJUILI: They know he is your Chief Whip. (Laughter)
in
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In any event, 1968 we shall listen to his farewell
speech , when I shall be the Prime Minister before we go to the polls . We shall only need one elected member to make me Prime Minister and we shall rule the country in a
(Interjections) I do not know where you go during your spare time . You do not know enough to know that there are about 40 states which are independent in Africa . Only nine of those states who , when they had independence , had some bloodshed. Of the other 31 they all got independence without any bloodshed whatsoever. So when we talk of independence we are not thinking in terms of a Black man in the Transkei . We are thinking of human beings White , Black and joining in as citizens of the Transkei . (Interjections) You surprise us , you people . The delegates from Malawi were here about two months ago and you people , instead of learning from them how things are done , did not even leam that today in Malawi there are still White magistrates . Disabuse yourselves of the idea that when we talk of independence we want to drive away the White people from the Transkei . Don't be misled by a report which appeared in the papers some time ago which misreported me that I want to get rid of the White people in the Transkei . All I said was that I don't want to live with the White oppressors . I want to live with white men if they accept me as an equal and enjoy the fruits of this country equally . I want to come to another question . The hon. the Chief Minister wants to know whether this proposal emanates from true knowledge of what has happened in other states. He wants to know what state has ever had independence before
tempo which is being admired by the people we lead . You across the floor are unknown to the people because God never gave you any people . (Laughter) The people are the chiefs and here they are . The people know themselves to whom god gave them . (Interjections) Even if you send people to Hell you would excuse yourselves by saying God never gave you any people .
Mr.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman , I second the amendment.
MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman , I will request the hon . members to regard the question under discussion as a very delicate question . We must not only be moderate , but let us show that we are true statesmen of the Transkei . Even those who are sober and sure politicians must try to recollect themselves and be state smen, so I will quote the words of a wise man before the true statesmen of the Transkei . It is a Blue Book · the Proceedings of the Transkei Select Committee in 1963. " I will continue to offer myself to you , my fellow countrymen , as well as to my white friends whom I still intend to serve . I think the only service that can be successful is based on co -operation. Criticism will not be lacking criticism
207 .
it was economically sound. Don't you know that the very Malawi state which we talk of got self-government in 1963 , and that was partial self-government in 1963 , and in 1964 they got their full self-government. In 1965 they became independent . In 1966 they became independent . In 1966 they became a republic. Why do you want to keep the Transkei citizen in that small place of yours which is always promising independence for which you do not even set a date? And you people quote history in South Africa, history which you do not know. How can you talk about independence with Afrikaners in South Africa? I want the hon. gentleman on the other side to realise that ever since the days of the trekkers the Dutchman vowed in front of God and all human beings that a Native , a Kaffir , will never enjoy equal rights with a White man. (Interjections) Listen! They vowed that the Kaffir would always be a drawer of water and a hewer of wood. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR . DIKO : Now, what I want you to realise listen to this wise saying by a man who is a true African : " Some of the more intelligent and educated Africans were suspicious of the granting of self-rule . They say this is a dummy and not a real independence like Ghana and Uganda. " Now I want to show to the hon. chiefs on that side that the reason why they want the Transkei declared independent is because as it stands at present it is really a pondokkie , a pigsty. It is a reservoir for cheap labour for the White man in the Republic . Now, the very Constitution , the Matanzima Constitution do you know it? I will quote it to you - the Constitution as it stands , this Transkei Constitution is by no means a democratic Constitution and therefore you can never say that out of this Constitution , autocratic as it is , you will ever realise an independent state . (Interjections ) Did you hear what your master said in yesterday's paper · the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, M.C. Botha? He said that from today when Mahatma Ghandi wants to go to Johannesburg he must get a passport. Even if you go to Kokstad you must get a passport and he says it does not matter whether you were born in East London or have lived there for twenty years , you have no place in White society. Here is an important thing for you to take notice of. He says the Bantu and regional authorities will be tribal responsible for issuing these documents or pas sports. So the hon. the Chief Minister says Mr. Sinaba, under the influence of Communism , is dragging this country to a precipice . He is not aware that he is the man that is dragging the Tran skeians into an abyss - nay, into a dungeon . So he must be very careful because he is in company with that party and with the Europe an oppressors . The one makes laws in the Republic and the assistant says we must carry out those laws, and those laws are oppressive to the
208.
people of the Transkei . So you must be very careful to be instruments of oppression . You cannot deceive a man all the time . You cannot pretend all the time . One day your lies will be found out and those lies will find you out, so I warn the hon . chiefs in this House they must be very careful of being dragged and dragged . Now look at the position as it is in Basutoland today. They do not know what I am talking about. Any chief, any paramount chief who wants to be a member of the Legislative Assembly must renounce his chieftainship if he wants to be a member of the Legislative Assembly. You do not realise that by continually coming here and acting against the wishes of your subjects you are going to get into di sfavour with your subjects . So when we suggest that the Transkei must be declared independent we are going to make a proper democratic constitution , constitution · the essence of a democratic institution of parliamentary procedure as seen even in this South Africa. Why is the Transkei Constitution , the Matanzima Constitution not a party of what is happening in the Republic of South Africa? Even in that true parliament of Europeans a sessional allowance is R11 a day , and here you are given R2 a day . Now, in the Republic they have a recess allowance of R5 a day and on top of that they have travelling allowance free , whether they are travelling on land , sea or in the air they must travel with a warrant which shows they are responsible men of this country . Now this is very important . We must be independent because the reason why these things are being done is because this this dummy government is a dummy council you are turning into a parliament. It is not a parliament. It is not even a Bunga. You hear men introducing bills here and those bills are drawn by the Europe an Secretaries; they have been engineered by Pretoria, so your brains , your abilities are never at liberty to work for the people . So if you want this pretence , we are tired of it because everything is done under the camouflage that the Transkei Legislative Assembly has decided , when we never decide anything. When shall we decide? When shall we be men? And here is an important thing : You asked four years ago for a Department of Health. You asked three years ago for a Department of Transport and a Welfare Department. What happened? The Republic is still considering it. When are you going to take the example of the which Native's Council , Representative broke into pieces because it disagreed with Dr. Jansen? I am pleased to say the hon. Paramount Chief Victor Poto was a member of that council at the time. The Natives' Representative Council said they would not move an inch until they had been given a reply to their former resolution . Why do you continue to deliberate and talk as if this is a picnic? You pile request on request. When will you ever be men? I come to the point as to why the Transkei wants independence . The Transkei has been sold - never mind who sold it, I want you to realise
these important things . You will realise after ten years that the economic viability you talk of will be in the hands of the Broederbond . The Dutch are taking every-
MR . RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , how does this one motion come in after the House had been warned that motions had closed a fortnight ago? Was there a special request
thing in this country under the camouflage of Bantu Investment Corporation ; under the camouflage of Xhosa Development Corporation . Who are the members of those com-
for it , or are motions still open and allowed to come in?
panies? Here is an important thing to note : Every educated African with ability is shelved . Where is Mr. Mbuli today? He will never be a magistrate because this dummy Government is pleased to see some of its
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , the announcement by the Chairman did not refer to motions by the Government. It referred to
motions by private members . Now for your benefit I want to read what the Chairman said: "It is proposed to accept notices of motion from private members up
important citizens not being given important posts , but being taken out to the country to go and rough it there. You ask where the manpower is when the best brains of the country today are on Robben Island? So
to and including Monday, 24th April. Thereafter private notices of motion will not be allowed on the order paper except with the consent of the House . Private members are therefore advised to prepare their notices of motion for submission not later than Monday , 24th April , 1967."
you see if you people do not change your ways you are going to knock yourselves against the people of the Transkei. The wish of the people is that they must have human rights , human freedom. Even today I speak as I do because I am in this House .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
Outside this House you know I am in bondage and I may say nothing . You say that is a state to develop the country . There is all this talk of self-determination . Today there is no more talk of that. Where is Port St.
NOTICES OF BILLS. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Friday , the 19th day of May , 1967 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 namely , the Proclamation govering conditions of service in the Transkei an Government service.
John's? Where is it? (Laughter) So what Transkei have you got under the present set-up , except that you are in bondage ? We are a pondokkie , a pigsty . I would rather be a free man in a poor country than be a rich man in gaol. So I call upon you now to change your minds before it is too late .
THE MINISTER OF THE पै INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Friday , the 19th day of May , 1967 , I propose to move the first
Tell the African people when you are going to allow White capital to flow into this country to open industries for the people . We want independence and to allow White capital and skill. I will quote the hon . Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau here , if you
reading of a bill to provide for the payment of pension or other benefits to certain
will allow me . He said: " I belong to separate development, but I will allow White capital and skill to come into the Transkei ." That is the independence we want White capital and White skill must come into the Transkei. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
officers or employees or their dependents , to amend the Transkei Education Act , 1966 , and to repeal the Transkeian Teachers ' Pension Fund Act , 1965 .
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : THIRD READING .
The debate was adjourned .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that the Transkei Appropriation Bill , 1967 , be now read a third time.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 18th May, 1967 .
THURSDAY, 18TH MAY, 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
a.m.
F.
GWADISO :
I
second ,
Mr.
Agreed to.
Prayers were read .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , before I move the adoption of the minutes , may I have an explanation with regard to item 56? Is this a notice of motion or was it an announcement? If it be a motion , may we find out whether it has not been said that motions closed some fortnight ago , unless a special concession was granted this one?
this
CHIEF Chairman .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , was a notice of motion yesterday .
209.
The Bill was read a third time.
CREATION OF SUB-CHIEFTAINSHIP : EMBOLAND REGION , QUMBU DISTRICT. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move Motion No. 46 standing in my name :" 1. THAT
WHEREAS
the
Emboland
Regional Authority has in terms of subsection ( 1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963)
resolved that a sub- chieftain ship be created in respect of administrative areas Nos. 6,
nal conviction resulting from drunken behaviour. Isaac was then again called upon to come to the rescue of the Pondomisi
10 , 11 , 12, 13 and 14 in Qumbu district and that Isaac Matiwane be designated subchief over the said six administrative areas ,
people and was in 1956 appointed acting chief of the Pondomisi . About a year ago the Pondomisi , led by Acting Chief Isaac Matiwane himself and Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa of Tsolo district , made representations to the Government for ex-Chief
2. AND WHEREAS this resolution entails the creation of a new sub-chieftainship in the Transkei ,
Sigidi to be pardoned and reinstated . The matter was thoroughly investigated and referred to the security police , the magistrate of the district of Qumbu and the tribal authority for their views . They were all in favour of the reinstatement of Chief Sigidi . As soon as it appeared that the Government would grant their first request the Pondomisi , thankful for the invaluable services rendered to them by Acting Chief Isaac Matiwane , immediately made second a
3. NOW THEREFORE this Assembly in terms of sub-section ( 2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 recommends (a) the confirmation by the State President of a new sub-chieftain ship in Qumbu district, for the following administrative areas: No. No. No. No. No. No.
(b) that
6 called Upper Tyira 10 Nkonkweni "" 11 Caba 99 12 Shukunx a 99 Sulenkama 13 99 14 "" Gqukunqa
the
State
President
request to the effect that Isaac be designated sub-chief under Sigidi over a portion of the area occupied by the Pondomi si in Qumbu district. This had the whole-hearted support of ex-Chief Sigidi and the Emboland regional authority was also unanimous in its designation of Isaac Matiwane as sub-chief. This is not a political matter but a request from the depths of the heart of a people for one of its sons to be rewarded for many years of valuable service to it. I therefore appeal to members not to approach this matter
should
confirm the designation of Isaac Matiwane as sub-chief of the said administrative areas ." Mr. Chairman , as indicated in the motion it arises from a resolution of the Emboland
on party lines and to make the necessary recommendation to the State President to attain its desire.
Regional Authority passed unanimously on the 11th April , 1967. It has been brought to this Assembly in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act which lays down that chieftainship will be a matter to be determined by regional authorities according to Bantu law and custom and, further, that the creation of a new chieftain ship shall not be confirmed by the State President except after consideration by the Legislative Assembly. The story of the Pondomisi chieftain ship is well known in the Transkei , yet today the occasion demands that it be recounted for the benefit of the members of this As-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr. Chairman .
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this side of the House has no hesitation in expressing its appreciation for the recognition of Chief Isaac Mati wane as a sub-chief. As the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated , this is being done to recognise the long service that this hon. member has rendered to the tribe , and in
sembly. On account of the internecine wars between the Pondomisi and neighbouring tribes the Pondomisi Chief Mhlontlo asked the then Government for protection during
expressing this attitude of the Opposition we want to assure the chiefs that at no time has the Opposition ever opposed chiefs as such , or the creation of chiefs , and this is evidenced by the fact that amongst the members of the Opposition we have paramount chiefs and chiefs , but unfortunately no sub- chiefs . Fortunately for this House the intended sub-chief is a member of this
or about the year 1880. During the same year, however Chief Mhlontlo and his 1880, followers , during the Pondomisi rebellion , murdered Mr. Hope, second magistrate of Qumbu , together with two other officers from the Chief Magistrate's office . By that act Chief Mhlontlo destroyed the Pondomisi chieftainship for about half a century . It was only in 1930 that the South African Government agreed to restore the chieftainship. The correct person to become chief, namely Sigidi Matiwane , was still too young to take over and his uncle , Isaac Matiwane , was appointed regent during the minority of the said Sigidi. Isaac Mati wane acted as regent until 1949 when Sigidi assumed office as the first direct descendant of Mhlontlo
House and has sought to bring his judicial mind to bear upon matters that have been discussed here and we hope that when he begins to reign over his people he will not be influenced by political considerations in handling his tribe , who will be his children. Now, Sir, having said that, I would like to have some elucidation on the designation "sub-chief" and its creation . In terms of the motion it is sought to create a subchieftainship in terms of sub- section 45 (1) of the Transkei Constitution Act and, looking at sub- section 45 ( 1 ) , we notice that the Constitution seeks to define those officers who can be created under that provision . That provision specifically relates to the
to hold the position in about 70 years . The Pondomi si chieftain ship suffered another setback when in 1954 Chief Sigidi Matiwane was deposed by the Government for a crimi210.
to inform the House that I have requested the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Ad-
designation of paramount chiefs , chiefs and acting chiefs , and I think the intention of the legislature in giving that definition was to exclude any other creation than that for which provision has been made under section 45, subsection ( 1) . If we refer to Part X of the Constitution , Definitions and Short Title , sub- section (v) we find a definition of a chief. That is on page 40 of the Constitution Act. "Chief" means a person duly appointed or recognized as a chief in terms of sub-section (7) of section two of the Native Administration Act , 1927 (Act No. 38 of 1927) , and any person appointed in terms of sub- section (8 ) of that section to act temporarily in the place of a chief, and a person whose designation as chief or acting chief has been confirmed in terms of section forty-five; (xiii) " Now when we look at Act No. 38 of 1927 , sub-section 2 (7), we find the following provision : "The Governor-General (now the State President)
ministration and Development to make such inclusion when the Act is amended to provide for elections on a district basis . MR . C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise up just because the hon. Mr. Guzana said that this side of the House "appreciates". I do not appreciate , nor recommend, the creation of political chiefs . It is not custom nor tradition to take an ordinary commoner , an ordinary policeman , and make him a chief. A chief, according to African tradition and custom is bom . Chieftainship is hereditary so we are now adopting a practice which in the long run will find us in a very precarious position. If a man serves the Government satisfactorily then we decide to reward him by giving him the honour of a chief. I wish the hon . members to agree that that is a deviation from the African practice and it should not be done . Now take a case · I am from the Qaukeni region. There are certain tribes there who have their own tribalism ,
may recognize or appoint any person as a chief of a Native tribe and may make regulations prescribing the duties , powers and privileges of chiefs so recognized or appointed and of a headman appointed under sub- section (8) . " Now sub- section ( 8) gives the Minister or the Secretary , as delegated by the Minister, the right to appoint any person as a headman and may appoint any person to act temporarily as a chief or
their own chieftain ship , but they are all under the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland. If this House is going to create chiefs then those people one day will claim to be made paramount chiefs , and that is dangerous because we shall soon find African people never uniting but always dividing, because once you have paramount chiefs · you see it now. A paramount chief does not want to bow down to another paramount chief; a chief does not want to bow down to another chief, so the chiefs and paramount chiefs are more than enough. Let us not create more difficulties for the Transkei . Here is an important factor to bear in mind · in the Transkei chiefs are
headman . It would appear that the definition given after vesting the powers in the Governor- General or State President - namely , by itemizing specifically the designation of a paramount chief, chief or headman as the case may be - does exclude any other creation , other than those on which the legislature has specifically provided for . My view is that if sub-chiefs could be created then the legislature would have referred to the creation of those officials under a general
not only administrators but they are also political figures and that is a thing you do not find in any democratic country . An administrator should be confined to administration. THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member . I take it you are opposing this motion?
term " chieftain ship " , but when the legislature , after empowering the State President to designate chiefs , goes on to state what chiefs may be designated , it would appear that the intention is in relation to only those for which provision is specifically provided and not to sub -chieftain ships which are not included in this definition . I would be happy if we could have some elucidation on that
MR. DIKO: I am opposing it , Sir. That is what I am saying and I wish it to be understood it is not that I have anything
not affecting the creation of this sub-chieftain ship but that the matter may be clear to us for the powers of the State President have been made specific rather than general by the definition following the designation of chiefs by him. Thank you , Mr. Chairman . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman
against the man in question . I do not know him , nor do I know his area, and I do not care to know him . What I am concerned about is the principle of creating political chiefs . I suppose this thing will be allowed to go on when we have clearcut demarcation line when chiefs are confined to administration and never come to politics . We
point,
and hon. members, as the hon . member has already said, chiefs are recognized or appointed by the State President under the Native Administration Act of 1927 , as amended. It is correct that the Transkei Constitu-
have tried now and again to respect the chiefs and requested that they should be given an upper house of chiefs , but they have disagreed with us . THE MINISTER OF that be administration?
tion Act does not refer to sub-chieftain ship but the Native Administration Act , No. 38 of 1927 , in its definition of " chief" says that a chief in relation to a Native tribe includes a paramount chief or a sub-chief. I agree , however , that it would be better to
JUSTICE : Would
MR . DIKO : I say if they want to be in politics , they must have an upper house when they can talk as chiefs , not to mingle with the commoners here because when political arguments become hot we are
specifically include the term "sub-chief" in the Constitution Act and I am pleased 211.
sometimes inclined not to respect a chief,
that this matter must be deferred and then Chief Sigidi can bring this matter to the House that a sub-chief in his area should be
and he demands that respect and indeed it is his right to expect it. So now when we clash with them in this Legislative Assembly and we clash with them in our political
installed . We are now trying to count chickens before the eggs are hatched .
campaigns where is the Transkei going to end , because people will know that in most cases their requests and suggestions are turned down by the chiefs .
THE CHAIRMAN : So are you making an amendment? MR . DIKO: I will make an amendment on your instructions .
THE CHAIRMAN : Please stick to the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN : No , I am not instructing you, but you want to make an amendment.
MR. DIKO: Now, Mr. Chairman , you are starting trouble again. I must give reasons why we object to the creation of this subchieftainship which does not even exist in the Transkei Constitution Act.
MR . DIKO: I will put in an amendment.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I understand the position Chief Sigidi Matiwane is a chief and there need be no request that he be made a chief. He is in effect a chief and all that is required is that he be installed . Now this motion seeks to make Isaac Mati wane a sub-chief
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What do you mean the Chairman is starting trouble again. THE CHAIRMAN: You must withdraw those words . MR . DIKO: I withdraw the words that the Chairman is starting trouble again.
and in the nature of things one would expect that before Sub-chief Isaac Matiwane is installed , the first man to be installed is Chief Sigidi Matiwane . That is how I look at it, and in my own view I hold that when Chief Sigidi Matiwane has been installed then afterwards Sub-chief Isaac Matiwane
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. speaker has indicated he is opposing this motion but there is no amendment in front of us. What is the wording of his amendment , if there is an amendment? That is the point .
will be installed , with Chief Sigidi already installed and taking part in the installation of Sub-chief Isaac Matiwane .
MR. DIKO: I am not talking of amending a motion. I am opposing the whole motion . Now before I finalize my argument in this question, even the chief in question , Chief Sigidi , has not been installed yet , so how can we say Chief Sigidi has requested the Transkei Government to create a sub- chief-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , as has been said by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition we have no intention of opposing this motion , but it looks as if I will have to make an observation here . This Assembly , having realised , is now calling on the State President to perform that which the State President may refer back to this Assembly for regularization and in doing so he will be doing what we already see now. True enough , the hon. the Chief Minister has referred to this matter as a non-political
tain ship in his area? You can see that the Goverment presupposes that Chief Sigidi will desire a sub- chieftainship to be created in his area . If we start a presupposition like this he is being forced . It is condition al that we shall make him a chief providing he makes Chief Isaac Matiwane his sub-chief.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , there is nothing in this motion referring to Chief Sigidi · nothing at all · so if the hon. member is opposing the motion he must stick to the motion .
one and indeed it is a non-political matter. What shall be the stand of this Assembly as a whole in recommending to the State President in an unconstitutional matter to
MR . DIKO : The hon . Minist er in his remarks did speak about Chief Sigidi , so I followi argume with argumen . am nt ng t
perform a duty that is not in the statute books either of the Republican Government or of this Assembly . I would like to make that observation that we are in reality asking the State President to act on something that is not in either statute book of either Parliament, unless an explanation to include that could be made a little bit clearer. And could I say that the hon . the Chief Minister
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are not following my argument. I referred to exChief Sigidi . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member , I am warning you again to stick to the motion .
did say that he made a request for the amendment to embody this in future , but at the moment it is not covered , unless an explanation can be made .
MR . DIKO : I am sorry, hon . members , because I am sticking to the motion because he said that the people of Qumbu together with Chief Sigidi and Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa came and asked for the Chief to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to add a few remarks to the remarks which
be pardoned. I heard him say that. In any case what I am bringing to the House is
were made by the hon . the Leader of the
212.
a lot of time on this.
Opposition in trying to explain to some of the dunderheads across the floor . (Interjections) There seems to be a confusion with regard to the position of Chief Sigidi . I am not replying to the hon. Mr. Rajuili just now. I am adding to an explanation given by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in reply. to the speech by the hon. prodigal son across the floor. In the installation of Chief Sigidi there is no creation of a new chieftain ship . In fact, that is why Chief Isaac Matiwane has been designated as acting chief.
MR . RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , this is a matter which is very delicate . We are not opposing it. We are trying to put it above any embarrassments . The hon . the Minister of Education made an attempt to reply but he did not reach that point of explanation . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , by way of clarification on the remarks made by the hon . member for Maluti , I would like to refer him to the fact that the power of designation of chieftainships on the State President
MR . DIKO : Acting for whom?
stems from the Native Administration Act , No. 38 of 1927 , and that there the ambiguity on the sub-chieftain ship is clear in the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Acting for Sigidi or anybody who would be the rightful heir to the chieftainship. So there is no question of creating a sub- chieftainship to a chieftainship which is not there . (Interjections) That was the inference when the hon. member said the acting chief would be made sub-chief to a chief who is not installed .
definition. As a further proof of that , subchieftainships have been confirmed by the same State President in the Gcaleka region as well as in the Emigrant Tembul and region. So there is no fear of any embarrassment.
MR . RAJUILI : We are thankful for this explanation , Mr. Chairman, and sometimes we pass a matter here as a sub-chieftainship but then we see it as chieftainship without it having been regularized .
MR . DIKO : Have you reinstated him? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now a sub-chieftainship may be created to chieftain ship which is in existence . The personnel here is not in issue. What is in
The question was put and the motion issue is the position . (Interjections) Listen! You will be wiser if you listen. I say the personnel is not in issue . What is in issue is the position .
carried by 62 votes to 9. GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI.
MR . DIKO : It is the man in the position who must create a sub- chief. It is not the position which creates a sub- chief.
The debate was resumed .
MR.
0.0 . MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and
hon . members , I wish to move an amendment that all the words after the word " grant" be deleted and the following words substituted there for:
THE CHAIRMAN : The hon . the Leader of the Government party has spoken on this matter. He was seconded by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that the House is in agreement with this motion .
"all the people of the Transkei full freedom rights in the Republic which includes the Transkei . "
MR . DIKO : No.
Barring the hon. CHAIRMAN : THE member who stood up opposing the motion , the hon. Mr. Diko . I then asked him whether or not he intended to submit an amendment.
MR. C. DIKO: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , may I know if an amendment can be made to an amendment? Further, in the motion there is no word "ripe " . (Interjections)
He said No , he was merely opposing it. I then allowed him to speak on the motion and after his address to the Assembly he now hands me an amendment. Well , I cannot allow him to speak twice , nor am I prepared to accept his amendment.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman , I see the hon. member about to proceed before you give your ruling on the point of order by the hon. member for Qaukeni . I am also waiting to lodge my own objection .
MR. DIKO : Mr. Chairman ……..
THE
CHAIRMAN :
That
is
my final
decision . I will not allow you to speak any more.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, the hon. Mr. Mpondo is moving an amendment to the original motion.
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I thought the hon. chief was going to make an explanation on what I had thrown out as an observation .
MR. DIKO: There is no word "ripe" in the original motion . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , that is the essence of an amendment, that it
THE CHAIRMAN : I think we are wasting 213.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: You are going to hear it.
differs from the original motion . (Interjections) The amendment comes after the word "grant" , not after the word "ripe", so this is not amendment to an amendment, but to the original motion which carries the word "grant" . The amendment 3 seeks certain
your
THE CHAIRMAN : I have listened to explanation. The hon. member can
make a motion next year. This amendment is out of order.
words tombe substituted for the original words which come after the word " grant" .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman ... THE CHAIRMAN: I think this amendment is all right as it is .
THE CHAIRMAN : Are you talking about this amendment ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish first to draw your attention to rule 167 which reads : "In every case not provided for in the se Rules of Procedure or in the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, the Chairman shall decide , taking for his guide the rules and
MR. GUZANA: It is purely a question of procedure. THE CHAIRMAN: talk to the amendment?
Are
you
going to
MR. GUZANA: I am not going to talk to the amendment, but I want to comment on what you have done , Sir. If I remember correctly, when an hon. member sought to say that this amendment was out of order you ruled, Sir , that it was in order as it
practice of the House of Assembly of the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa in so far as they can be applied or adapted to the proceedings of the Assembly ." Now, in the Parliamentary Rules of Procedure in South Africa, by Ralph Kilpin , page 63, it says the first and most important restriction is that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed. In addition, amendments must not render the original question unintelligible
stood before you . That was when the hon . Mr. Diko said so .
THE CHAIRMAN: Well , we all make mistakes . I have now discovered that I made a mistake , so it is hopeless , hon . member.
or inconsistent. Now, an explanatory note says: "A large number of decisions from the Chair on this subject are to be found in the Votes and Proceedings of the Union House of Assembly. Most of them are directed against attempts to extend an original proposal ." · which is exactly what the hon.
MR. GUZANA: But Mr. Chairman , I think we should be given a chance to speak to the House and to the Chair on a ruling which has been made by the Chairman . I hope you are not going to say we cannot speak about it because you have considered too that you can make a mistake .
member seeks today . For example on a motion confined to the relief of farmers the Speaker disallowed a number of amendments which sought to extend similar relief to various other classes of persons, such as
is
widows , orphans , authors and mine-workers . Now, the original motion as moved by the hon . member for Qaukeni seeks to ask this House to request the Republican Government to grant independence to the Transkei and the motion of the hon. member for Fingoland wishes to extend whatever he wishes
THE CHAIRMAN : But my final decision that that amendment is out of order.
MR. GUZANA : Which may well be a mistake , Mr. Chairman. THE
CHAIRMAN:
You
were
talking
about the word " ripe " or " grant" . MR. GUZANA: That is why you said it was in order .
to extend to the Republic of South Africa. In fact , in the main his motion is inconsistent with the original motion as provided here , that it must not be inconsistent with the original proposal. The hon . member for
THE CHAIRMAN : Yes , but now I say it is out of order.
Maluti wants independence for the Transkei , and the hon. member for Fingoland wants full citizenship for the people of the Transkei in the Republic, which is inconsistent with independence in the Transkei . But the most operative word here is "independence " in the Transkei . He wants independence in the Republic of South Africa and that is
MR.
GUZANA:
Now,
Sir ,
I think we
should be given a reason why it is being declared to be out of order , because the rules relating to motions and amendments do not place this amendment out of order. I do not want to lead you , Sir , because you have made your ruling , but we would like to know the reasons for that ruling.
definitely....(Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : The wording of the amendment leads me to conclude that it
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : There is no such thing as independence in the motion .
is out of order . The House will now adjoum until 2.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He says " full freedom rights in the Republic which includes the Transkei " . One can hardly discern what the hon . member wants .
AFTERNOON SESSION. The
214.
Assembly resumed
at
2.15 p.m.
The debate was resumed . MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move this amendment: That all the words after the word "to" in the original motion be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: "guarantee full freedom of the individual ."
This motion , Mr. Chairman, asks for the freedom of the individual ... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, on the same grounds I submit that this amendment is out of order in that it falls within the ambit of the second point that I canvassed this . morning in that it says that in addition amendments must not render the original question unintelligible . I think that this amendment falls within the ambit of this . It is rendering the original question unintelligible.
Botha, the Minister of Bantu Administration and Oppression , (Laughter) was carrying a big hammer , putting the last nail in the coffin of the poor voiceless and defenceless African , while the big black puppet and hireling of the White oppressor tried to bamboozle the African in the Transkei into believing that one day when things become brighter the Transkei would be granted independence . Mr. Chairman , for how long will the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei keep on deceiving the people of the Transkei ? He knows in his heart of hearts that the Transkei could never be granted independence. He knows he is a paid agent of the White Broederbond Republic of South Africa. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , for how long will you allow these personal reflections against the character of another man ? This man says I am a paid agent. He cannot say how much I am paid and by whom . I will ask him to withdraw his words un-
MR . T.H. BUBU: Only if your powers of comprehension are poor.
reservedly . (Interjections) Keep quiet, you idiot. He should withdraw those words .
THE CHAIRMAN : My view is that any member can introduce an amendment to the original motion and the hon . member is introducing an amendment to the original
MR . C. DIKO : word " fool" .
And you withdraw the
THE CHAIRMAN : Which words exactly?
motion . I think he is quite in order. Carry on.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He says I am a paid agent of the Broederbond of South Africa. What does that mean? How much have I been paid?
MR. MPONDO: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Before I speak to the amendment I should like to draw the attention of hon . members to the difference in meaning between the two words " independence" and " freedom ". The interpreters are inclined to give the Xhosa interpretation for the word " independence" as "inkululeko " , where as in actual means "ukuzimela fact "independence " means ge qe" and the word " freedom"
MR. T.H. BUBU: You are a political agent. What you are paid is known to you. THE CHIEF MINISTER:
THE CHAIRMAN : I must wam the hon. member and besides withdrawing he should refer to rules 40 and 41 of the Rules of Procedure . I think the members have for-
"inkululeko" . I hope therefore the two words will not be mixed up in future .
MR. C. DIKO : Can you give the difference in English , please? What is the distinction in English? MR.
MPONDO :
My
amendment
He must say
what I am paid and by whom.
gotten those two rules . I am sick and tired of asking members to withdraw, withdraw, and I will just take action if they do not pay attention to these rules .
seeks
full freedom rights for the individual. We MR. B.S. RAJUILI: The Government side say we have been paid by the Communists. (Interjections)
have witnessed year after year the White oppressor in the all- White minority Parliament in the Republic passing oppressive and repressive laws against the poor African , because the White . oppressor in South Africa believes in the inherent inferiority of everyone with a black skin .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman. Sir , I want to assist you in that the motion refers to the Transkei and not the Republic ruling.
and that was your
MR. MPONDO: Hon . members , I am beginning to recall the words of the hon . Dr. W.W.M. Eiselen , that great architect of the stinking, ungodly and diabolical policy of "apartheid" , when he was reported to have said : " We are happy that we have finally been able to get in Chief Matanzima , a man who is prepared to sell our policy
MR. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman , I take it
of
that the Transkei is right inside the Republic and the laws passed in the Republican Parliament are affecting us directly in the Transkei . A few days ago the hon. Mr. M.C. 215.
separate
development. "
(Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is that?
MR.
MPONDO:
Mr.
Chairman , I have
including the Transkei , is our country. No one , Mr. Chairman , will ever make us change those views. No amount of intimidation will make us deviate from the course we are now pursuing. We want freedom in our country. Matanzima's dummy institution is standing in the way and blocking the road to freedom. Mr. Chairman , may I address a word to my chiefs .
been an insurance manager for some years and I hire agents to run about selling my policies. I was paying those agents . (Laughter) I am trying to draw the attention of the House to the fact that I was not trying to speak ill of my Chief Minister. When the hon . Dr. W.W.M. Eiselen says they are happy to have a man who is prepared to sell their policy .... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a lie . Where is that? Let me see the quotation .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are leading to trouble and you will get it.
MR. MPONDO : ...I do not take it that he would just be asked to sell the policy of " apartheid" without being paid for it. That is why I labelled him as a paid agent . Mr. Chairman , we on this side of the House want freedom for the people in the Transkei , including the Republic . They must be free to express their views without any fear of being arrested or being detained , as it is the case now. They must be free to sell their labour at the best markets in their country.
MR.
MPONDO :
I think the
time has
come for you to have your own opinions about things and not just to accept the opinions of other people . Let your conscience work freely according to your own views. I have the fear that the day will come when Chief Kaiser Matanzima will say when you may or may not meet your own wives. (Laughter and interjections ) I would like you to beware of that. I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
They must be free to go wherever they wish to go. They must be free to go to any seat of learning without any restrictions . The people of the Transkei want freedom and not independence .
hon.
MR. DIKO: They go together.
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and members , I second the amendment.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and ordinary members ...
MR. MPONDO : The hon . Chief Kaiser Matanzima said that the Transkei will be granted independence when it becomes economically viable . The hon. Chief misunderstood that by independence we mean
MR. GUZANA: I call upon this member to withdraw that. (Laughter)
independence in its true perspective . Now, Mr. Chairman , I wish to pose these questions to the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa, the Minister of Bantu
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Honourable members. OPPOSITION withdrawn.
Administration and Oppression , and to their puppets and hirelings in the Transkei : 1 . When the Transkei gets independence will they have a Department of Transport, in
MEMBER :
He
has
not
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Chairman has not said so. You must learn the rules of the House . (Interjections) I would like first of all to deal with the motion moved by the hon. member for Maluti . I do not know whether it is due to ignorance on his part, or being desperately anxious to gain popularity with a view to his followers . His motion is two-fold . It contains a date on which independence is sought to be granted to the Transkei , namely , the 5th May, 1967 ; or , alternatively, that the Republican Government should itself name a date on which it is prepared to grant independence to the Transkei . When he was taxed on the question of the 5th May , 1967 , his reply was that independence could be granted retrospectively . I do not think there is anybody in this House who would be prepared to listen to such a puerile reply. In the whole world , has anyone ever seen or heard of independence being given retrospectively? If people who fail J.C. do not understand the meaning of words they must not use them foolishly. Now , coming to the second alternative , the Transkei is not prepared to be duped or hoodwinked . This motion is merely , as I have said , a
view of the fact that the Republic an Minister of Transport, Mr. B.J. Schoeman , pointed out in no uncertain terms that the Transkei Government would never have control over the railways , the national roads and the other strategic roads in the Transkei ? 2 . Will the Department of Foreign Affairs be given to the Bantu stan Government and enable us to exchange ambassadors with whatever country we wish to have diplomatic relations? 3. Shall we have the Department of Defence and have our own army trained and equipped with modern fire-arms? Shall we be free to order arms and ammunition from whichever country we please? 4. If the answer to the above is " No " , as I believe it will be , what kind of independence is envisaged if the above portfolios or departments will not be granted the Transkei when it becomes independent? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Have you not had a reply to those questions already?
MR . MPONDO : We on this side of the House can never be cheated into the idea that the Transkei is the Black man's country. We know that the whole of South Africa,
very cheap way of trying to get cheap popularity . He is throwing the Transkei at
216.
bursting all over the show. (Laughter) In fact, I submitted that his amendment was most unintelligible. He speaks of guaran-
the mercy of the Republican Government. Government Republican the Supposing would say: All right we name the date -it will be a hundred years hence . What would you say? They might even say three hundred if they like , but what would you say, because you are asking the date on which
teeing full freedom of the individual . What is full freedom of the individual if it does not amount to independence ? The reason why he does not want to get near the word "independence " is because it is very much contrary to the policy they are following. He knew that the Opposition cannot associate themselves with the motion moved
they are prepared to grant independence ? MR . DIKO : ment must say .
No , the Transkei Govern-
by the hon . member for Maluti . Now , may it be well known to him that full freedom of the individual is the same thing as in-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now I did not know that the hon . Predikant is so poor in English that he cannot under-
dependence ... stand a motion of his own making .
OPPOSITION MR . DIKO : We say that alternatively you , the Transkei Government, would give the date .
DIKO :
Not
at all.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ... but he had to couch his motion in those words because he knows that he is canvassing
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Let me read your motion in case you do not understand it. MR . date?
MEMBERS:
what is ultra vires the powers of this House ; because he knows that they tried to bring up the same motion last year and it was ruled out of order . Now , we have constantly asked them the question and they have never been able to reply to it - that these propagations which they make against the
I know it . What is your
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not talking about that. I say: Supposing the Republican Government said they are prepared to grant you independence three years hence , what will you say? The motion is not mine . The motion comes from the ordinary prodigal sons of the Democratic
Republic of South Africa , how are they going to be able to put them into effect? They have constantly moved about the country , to East London and all over , to say they do not want the Transkei . they want the whole of the Republic . (Interjections) I want you to be educated because you are a " qaba " . We want to know from you how you are going to obtain this as far as the Republic of South Africa is concerned. We told you that the White people of the Republic of South Africa have told you in no uncertain terms that you will never get it. (Interjections) Now if you ask for something from a man and he says you are not going to get it, there is only one way to get it and that is by force of arms . (Interjections) Now are you prepared to get what you want by force of arms? You have been told you are not going to get it. You have not told us how you propose to get it and we have asked you to tell this House how you propose to get it. That is why I constantly refer to you as hypocrites and imposters and deceivers , because you go about deceiving people and promising them what you yourselves know you will never get. (Interjections) The hon. paramount chief here, the erstwhile Leader of the Opposition , said at one time when he was asked what policy his party would follow if they got into power : " If I and my party get into power we would follow the same policy of separate development until we gained independence ." That is , he would change the Transkei and make it a multi-racial
Party and the TNIP and, like all prodigal sons , they never know what they are about. (Interjections ) They are plodding about and trudging about eyeing everybody to get support which they are not getting and they feel they must come to this House and try to bluff the hon . members of tihs House. It might have been better if you had tried to amend this 5th May, 1967 , and put in another date in advance . We would say you are aiming at something , but once you become retrospective and once you throw your request at the mercy of the Republic an Government we on this side of the House say you are just in the same position , if not a worse one , as we are who are waiting to see the development of the Transkei before we can clamour for independence . I do not want to canvass the points raised by the hon. the Chief Minister when he replied so fully to the motion raised by the hon . member for Maluti . Now in reply to the argument advanced by the hon. member for Fingoland, he tried most lamentably to draw a distinction between freedom and independence . I do not begrudge him his failure . It is quite common surate with the standard of his education . (Laughter) To prove that he could not succeed in his attempt to draw a distinction between the two words he had to take recourse to Xhosa. He was requested by the hon . member for
state after the Transkei got independence. He was questioned before the elections . (Interjections) Was he telling lies before the election , and now is he telling the truth? The position is , he now finds himself
Qaukeni to give the difference in English between the two words and he pretended not to hear the hon. member , just because he was like a pumped-up bicycle which goes
217 .
in difficulties because his party does not believe in the independence of the Trans-
opposite meaning. The hon. the Minister of Education suggests that this side of the House has said South Africa belongs to the African ...
kei. Now, supposing that his party got into power, when would he practise the policy of multi-racialism? I submit that in order
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The
to progress any further we must be realists . Let us not promise the people the moon and the stars when we know we cannot
Republic .
MR . GUZA : ..or the Republ NA ic belon t t A o h f e rican , but the correct gs thing is that this side of the Hous e says the Africa belon R t t . e h o p e u b gs lic n
get to the moon and the stars . Let us promise the people those things that we know we can get. (Interjections ) You promise the people the Whole Republic . How are you going to get the whole of the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is not what that hon . member said.
Republic? OPPOSITION MEMBER : How are you going to get to the Great Fish River?
MR.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Great Fish River is well nigh, and that is why your Leader warned the White people and said Matanzima wants to swallow all the land up to the Fish River and after that he will want more. It was because after Matanzima had said that the boundary of Xhosa-land is the Fish River that it was
of the individual rights of the peoples who belong to the different racial groups living together in one country in the Republic . To suggest that freedom of the individual is synonymous with independence is the same as saying that multi-racialism is synonymous with "apartheid" ; for the freedom of the individual is relative to the freedom of other individuals and therefore
followed up by drawing that as some imaginary boundary ..(Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And therefore all the people who sympathize with the Whites had to warn the Whites to be careful that Matanzima wants to get their land . And the hon. member says that
in exercising one's freedom one does not so exercise that freedom as to curtail the
whole of the Republic belongs to the African people. OPPOSITION
MEMBERS:
Of
GUZANA : I would like the hon.
members to draw a comparison between the hon . the Minister of Education and, shall we say, Satan. (Laughter) Possession is distinct from belonging to , for this possessiveness conveys exclusiveness towards others and yet "belonging to" accommodates all others in the land to which you belong. So the concept of multi -racialism goes conclusively towards a recognition
freedom of other people . Freedom, therefore , is an accommodating concept, as against independence which seeks to ex-
course ,
clude other people from a particular country as is the concept of separate development, and we want to point out quite distinctly that when we speak of freedom of the individual we are speaking on a legal basis . The Transkei African is a citizen of the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now why does your leader say that Matanzima wants to get the land of the White people? (Interjections ) I have always told you that you do not speak the same language and follow the same policy . That is precisely why, when voting this morning, some of you voted and some did not . In fact , you let down your own leader. (Interjections) That should, of course , be expected in a heterogeneous mixture of toads and platannas . (Laughter) One sings one way but the others sing another way, not all following one principle and one policy. (Interjections) The hon. the Leader of the Opposition says there is a land for the White people and one of his henchmen says the whole land belongs to the African people . What do you expect the people to get from you? Do you sincerely expect the people to listen to you , when you can tell deliberate untruths?
Transkei , just as much as he is still a citizen of the Republic and therefore he is. in a position to protect his citizenship rights as a Republican citizen. That is the constitutional position as it exists in relation to the Transkei citizen - that he is enjoying a dual citizenship. If Transkei an citizenship was exclusive of Republic an citizenship then we would not ask for passfrom the Republican Goverment. ports THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is for the time being.
MR. GUZANA : If it is for the time being that we are enjoying this dual citizenship then we can speak of our citizenship rights as members of the Republic of South Africa, and to speak of the situation as being for the time being is to deceive the public, for independence is the song of Never-never . It is the mirage of the Sahara Desert which draws the thristy traveller on and on to the oasis , but he never gets there until he dies . It has been asked how we
Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I support the amendment of the Chief Minister. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the writer in the Bible knew long before any one of us was born that Satan is a very devilish fellow and that if he seeks to corrupt he takes words out of their context and the reading conveys the
218.
hope to achieve our policy, because it is as far away as the moon is from the earth . I
tive to do some thing , then you are no better than an animal . So , under "apartheid" or
ask the question : How far is independence from you? They tell me that above the heavens there is a hell , and it is further from the moon that the earth. I will use
separate development you shed your blanket of independence and freedom. The moment you cross the border you become subservient and you go in there on a lower animal
independence to stoke up Hell and not Heaven . We speak of the freedom of the individual realising himself in South Africa as it is a Republic , and the protagonists
basis . You are told quite specifically that you will go into the White areas to do certain queerly described traditional and demarcated jobs . There are certain categories of work which are specifically set aside for the free man of the Transkei who goes into the servitude of the Republic. And these are the men who are accepting the policy of "apartheid" .
of "apartheid" , as the Government is , seek to say that there is no realisation for the African in the Republic ; that if the African seeks to realise himself he must be satisfied with a Bantustan . What is this freedom which you hope to give to the African if you are going to be circumscribed geographically? What reason gives you the mind that you must abandon your Republican citizenship for Transkeian citizenship? Is it a sense of defeatism , a sense of ineffectiveness that is binding you to this idea of SO that you are development separate blinkered like a horse? The ox is not useful
GOVERNMENT
MEMBER :
You
are
misleading the people.
MR . GUZANA: I anybody because this
am not misleading is what has been
reported in the papers . Your freedom is then again to be controlled by passports into the Republic . I take it that anybody who holds a passport and has been given ....
if it is not yoked ; a horse is not useful until it has been saddled - but the horse on the grass is as free as anything to look to left and to look to right, but you have been blinkered into the narrow ideological channel of "apartheid" , to the extent that you do not even know what freedom is . You cannot even exercise the freedom of the
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member. Who are those members at the back speaking to people in the gallery? That is not allowed.
MR. GUZANA: ...that if you get a passand a corresponding visa you are allowed into a foreign country without let or hindrance . But what is going to be the position in South Africa? According to the statement as reported in the Daily Dispatch of the 16th May , your document of identification in the Republic will state the ethnic group to which you belong , where you reside and what work you are doing. In other words , to call this a passport is to glamourize a very serious situation because such a document which you will have to carry port
horse , which is instinctive , to look to left and right because your minds have been closed in by an ideological concept. You speak of full realisation under the policy of separate development. What is it that you say? You state that you will be enjoy ing a status equal to that of the White man if you are an independent state . I take it that the individual who lives in an independent state enjoys the rights and freedoms of an independent individual even when he is outside his state . That is , a Britisher from Great Britain goes to America and carries with him the freedom that he enjoys in Great Britain . What is this freedom which you advocate for the Transkei which becomes servitude as soon as you go into
from your free state into the Republic will be a document of servitude . That is why the Opposition says in its amendment the Republican Government should guarantee the freedom of the individual , for "apartheid" in its implementation is gradually undermining the situation of the African in South Africa and we are left in no doubt as to where we will end up with the policy of separate development . Now you throw this spanner into the works by endorsing this policy of the subjugation of the African . You said that the African cannot realise himself fully in a heterogeneous society . You want the world to believe that the African himself says : I am not equal in competition with any other racial group.
the Republic? This freedom which you are advocating is conditional upon your remaining within a geographical confine . The position has been made very clear for all "apartheidists" to understand and those who propagate the policy of separate development have heard the hon . Mr. M.C. Both a speaking on the position of the African in urban areas . Under the policy of separate development and " apartheid" he state s that the African goes into the urban areas on an unequal basis .
Gentlemen , even a dead man does not bring the soil over his coffin . He gets somebody else to do it. ( Laughter) I do hope you are still alive and that you will not allow the freedoms of the individual to be whittled away by legislation over which we have no control .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That has always been the case . MR. GUZANA: That has always been the case , and so you must go on accepting the situation without trying to change it. (Interjections ) If you have a farm ( and I hope you do) you try to improve your farm . Once you lose your initiative and the direc-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : When did you ever have control over legislation? 219.
MR. GUZANA : And let me convey to you an idea that has developed under the policy of separate development. In 1967 "African Survey" , for international consumption, has indicated that separate
of the temporary and immediate benefits which you are drawing from separate development. The politician who is indeed serving his people does not think of the immediate future but of the distant future for the
development and apartheid" plays loud the note of self-determination ; and if selfdetermination is going to be played under the policy of separate development the
generations to come , and in no country at all in the world have we ever seen " apartheid" as a policy that is propagated except in South Africa.
African will be a party concerned in the decision either to dismember a geographical
THE Britain.
portion of South Africa to remain his own , or to remain an integral part of the Republic . That is developing the idea of self-determination to its logical conclusion . If "apartheid" and separate development gives us self-determination , we are the people to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Great Britain .
America and
MR. GUZANA: And the duty of man is to convert other men in order that they may think of the rights of other men , and the good Lord is constantly preaching to you his word , although you are a heathen . We call upon you to support this amendment
the Republican Government is going to continue to legislate for the African who is also in the Transkei , does this Government go into consultation with the Republican Government on that legislation. If you do not have those consultations then it means you are accepting "apartheid" as delegating to the African a position of ine quality below that of other racial groups . And when we speak of freedom of the people , we are not speaking of the African alone.
because it guarantees to you your rights and the rights of every individual in South Africa.
MR . E. MHLAHLO : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the mover of this motion is a man whom I have always respected , but today he has said something out of the way. The Transkei is still at a low stage and it cannot be said to stand on its own feet. We have not yet got all the departments necessary.
We speak of the Coloured , the Indian , the White man , for these freedoms of the individual have been reduced in a relative manner right from the White man at the to the African at the bottom. We say this anomaly which militates against rule of law should be removed and that should not collaborate with a system
MR . B.S. RAJUILI: The Republican Government said you are not getting them either.
of government or with a political philosophy that is undermining the freedom of the individual , no matter what colour he is. Hear ,
Great
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But it is in practice .
consulted before this statement was made , since this statement affects the African. If
MEMBERS:
In
MR. GUZANA : If you quote America, "apartheid" is not in their legislation .
do seek to bring an enlightened mind into discussing the consequences of the policy that at the very moment is working to the disadvantage of the African . One would like to know if this Government has been
OPPOSITION
MINISTER :
MR. GUZANA: There are many countries older than South Africa but they have never tumbled on the policy of separate development.
determine what we want. But your brand "apartheid" says we must not say what we want, but let somebody else tell us what we want under separate development. We
top that the we
CHIEF
MR. MHLAHLO: We have not yet been granted these departments by the Republican Government although they have promised that they would gradually hand over to us some of those departments . (Interjections)
hear .
MR. GUZANA: It has always been suggested that the Democratic Party is championing the White cause . How can we champion the cause of one race without
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
championing the cause of every race with whom we live together? Now the Devil wants you to do wrong, but God wants to save you com the Devil and therefore we cannot be allowed to subscribe to the idea of independence which is like a loaded dice against the African . Every time you roll it on the ground the African side is under , and you never get the chance to roll this dice . The only opportunity you are given to handle
MR. MHLAHLO: It is a sign of foolishness that, as the Republican Government has promised to give us more departments , we should also ask them to give us independence . As I have already mentioned , we have not been granted all the departments and it is a disgrace that we should be asking for independence instead of asking for more help from the Republican Government.
this dice is when you pick it up and return it to the Republican Government and they roll the dice and the African is under again.
MR. RAJUILI: Is that why you ran away from this side? THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
We would like you to disabuse yourselves
220.
MR. MHLAHLO : It is a disgrace for an independent state to turn for help to other countries , just like a man who has his own wife and family turning to other families for assistance . That happened in Basutoland where they asked for independence , and instead of running their own government they are running around the world looking for financial assistance .
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , the hon . members are making a terrible noise. No one can hear what the saying. (Interjections) member is hon. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can't talk to the Paramount Chief like that. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Send him to the upper house. (General uproar)
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Shame ! MR . MHLAHLO : The Transkei has not yet got the Department of Defence or even an army sufficient to protect the country. Every state depends for its safety on its Defence Department. On that account the Transkei is not in a position to ask for total independence and I maintain that that to ask the Republican Government to give independence to the Transkei is stupidity oan folly. Our big mistake is to leap before we look. I admit the mover of this motion has a background of his own . Tho se are the people who think they are very wise and clever . Among his advisers are Europeans who urge them to seek this total independence . The aim of these Europeans is to see the Transkei turn communist, and these advisers , Black and White , have dug a precipice and the Government keeps watching to see that the people do not topple over that precipice. When the Go vernment realises that this might happen they apply the regulations under Proclamation R.400 . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order. Hon. members, the House will now adjoum until 11 o'clock tomorrow morning.
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 19th May, 1967 . FRIDAY,
19TH MAY, 1967.
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE READING. AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Government Service Amendment Bill , 1967 , and I move that the Bill be now read a first time.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. MHLAHLO : Even among the White advisers of this independence there are those who would like to do away with this Government, and Proclamation 400 is maintained to keep people out of mischief and if they persuade others to fall into the trap they can be brought to justice by this Proclamation . By this means we are able to put some in prison and others we send to Robben Island and leave their families destitute. Among the people who advise this independence we do not find uneducated people . It is mostly the educated men such as we find in the Maluti region . Just before coming to Parliament I met a person who, like the supporter of the motion of absolute independence , advocated this independence with the same amount of heat and fervour. He was so heated that he almost manhandled me and he said and I, Mhlahlo , B.S. Rajuili and Zibi were opposed to this idea of independence of Sinaba's .
MR . RAJUILI: They thought you were still with us.
was
MR. MHLAHLO : The very person who addressing me was himself detained
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to . The Bill was read a first time .
THE
CHAIRMAN : What
date for the
second reading? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Monday next week, Mr. Chairman , or so soon thereafter . TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL : FIRST READING .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Government Service Pensions Bill. In view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 63 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , I now table a recommendation by the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 of the rules of procedure that the Bill be considered by the Assembly . I move that the Bill be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second .
under R.400 for 90 days . The time has not yet come for us to be granted independence because we are not yet above the animal
Agreed to.
stage. (Interjections )
The Bill was read a first time .
221.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The second reading will be on Monday, Mr
this Government independence . Both these T-something parties are trying to ask for independence which they are very well aware they will never get. The hon . the Chief Minister remarked that the Republican Government would not consult the Aeicans
Chairman. GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI.
inside or outside the Transkei , particularly outside the Transkei in the Republic, because he says once you are outside the Transkei you are an animal . Those are his words. The Government is now trying to ask the Freedom Party for factors that would prove the viability of the Transkei when they can perhaps hope to have independence , and the Freedom Party, themselves a progeny of the same Government, have hopelessly failed to show how the Transkei could ever be viable economically .
The debate was resumed. MR . E. MHLAHLO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was saying that the hon. member for Maluti has not been sent by the Maluti people. There is not a single person who comes from Maluti who knows anything about this member. That is why I say he has been deputized by the people I have already mentioned . In the circumstances I will bring forward some points which I did not mention yesterday. To say we must get in dependence today or even in twenty years' time is not wise. Other tribes will laugh at us . We have not come to that mature stage. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR.
MHLAHLO:
I
gave
Before I go very far I would like to refer to Volume 1 of the Proceedings of the House of Assembly in Cape Town, on the 28th January , 1966. I want to refer to the leader of the party that has moved this motion - in fact, to both of them , father and son . This is what the then Prime Minister said on this question of independence when the honourable Mr. Hughes had asked him this question : "What is Matanzima asking? The Prime Minister replied: " What Matanzima is going to ask is independence for his Black territory and I shall be prepared to grant him that at the right time. "
substantial
argument in support of what I am saying yesterday. Out of the forty countries that have gained independence in Africa, nine of them have failed. We shall not make the Transkei follow these countries which have failed . Even if we are moving at a slow rate we shall make sure of our success.
THE MINISTER OF What is wrong with that?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : You will be dead before you get independence.
AGRICULTURE :
MR. RAJUILI : So the Republican Government has already replied to the motion that is tabled here , excepting that the mover of the motion and the amending party, or the Govemment, should find out when the right time shall be . It may not be on the 5th May, 1967 , nor can it be 300 or 400 years hence . The Republican Government could never have seen better fools than the Transkei Government to make them look for a needle in a dark-roomed house when there is no
MR. MHLAHLO: Let us not go hurrying so that even if we die we shall make sure that we have laid the necessary foundation . (Interjections) Even if this House of Assembly agrees that we should get independence I hope the Republic does not grant the necessary authority. It is no use being given a ship if we cannot row it, and it is no use being given a ship if the skipper does not know which way to steer it.
needle there. (Laughter) If ever you think there shall be independence or freedom at any other time, that freedom shall never be. So the Government must not shift its responsibility although, of course, they have displayed their usual political acrobatics here. This mischievous Government went out on one occasion and they said independence was round the corner.
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the motion in front of the House comes from a progeny of a former Chief Whip of the Government who ran away both sides of the House (Laughter) and the speaker who has just sat down is another run-away , and the two have made such a mess of the whole thing. Both persons are
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who said so?
spineless and lack political vision and they have thrown this. House into confusion . If indeed this weak Government will rejoice in rejects like the type of member who has just spoken then they must dissolve . On the 18th of this month the father replying to the son on this motion (by that I mean the hon. the Chief Minister) in no undoubtful words , admitted that the Transkei is far from being ready for any independence . The speaker who has just sat down (and I am glad that he sometimes does not think that there is
MR. RAJUILI : Today they tell the people they must wait for independence. After the Republican Government had realised that they had got some stupid persons then other stupid people followed them. This Government, for personal gains , has misled the people by promising them independence round the corner .
a God) says that God should see that the Republican Government should never give
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on a point of 222.
order I think the hon . member across the floor is not aware of his rules . He cannot
part of the Government in this House. They have seen through you. The people of the Transkei did not know their chiefs properly. Now they know you.
impute improper motives on the part of the Government.
MR. RAJUILI : Which Government? They told the people of the Transkei there is going to be repatriation of the Whites from the Transkei . In fact , I remember one hon . Minister strutting like a peacock in front of us , looking up at the gallery and saying that these sharks will be sent away from us soon .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Beware the Ides of March , 1968 . MR. RAJUILI : They now know that what you were telling them was to boost up one man and keep all the others down . When they say: Where is independence ? - they tell them they must wait another three hundred years. All right, you can wait a thousand years but we are not going to wait a moment from feeling that the individual must be given free citizenship rights .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You called them political sharks . MR. RAJUILI : Blaming us for a broad policy of multi -racialism he called them people who were blood- suckers of the African wealth in the Transkei . He said that Africans would have the towns in the Transkei and would have the farms of the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And you can wait at the bottom of Hell .
MR. RAJUILI : At the time when the was threatening the Black nationalist Whites in the Transkei there was a certain Mr. Sissons , of the Transkei Civic Association , asking the Republican Government to give them some assistance in the Transkei . Everybody was panicking at the time, fearing this revengeful nationalist who had poisoned the minds of the chiefs , but today we can assure them that the Whites in the Transkei have since seen that this was a
White people. He promised them everything while all the time he was making them a ladder to climb the heights where he finds himself today. Now after he has gone up by using this crowd of chiefs to bring him up by putting up their hands to vote for his position , he turns round to tell them it would be madness to ask for independence for the Transkei because they are not ripe and , indeed , how unripe they are. (Interjections)
big joke . Everybody who has any sense at all and any head to think cannot see that the policy for which we stand is the best policy for everybody and the only one to guarantee everyone freedom rights .
P CHIEF B. SIGCAU: You are jealous . Sit Down.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Sissons has since left the Transkei .
MR. RAJUILI: I still have to tell you what part of the ladder you have made . The thicker parts are usually at the bottom. At the time when they were promised this little kingdom they were not told that there would be loaned officials. They were told that everything that is done even by these officials would be done by Africans .
MR. RAJUILI: If he has he has . done good work to make sure that your Government cannot molest the Whites in the Transkei . (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, I want to leave this self- aggrandizement of people making fools of the people of the Transkei and turning round to say that anyone who wants independence for the Transkei today is mad. That is what they say. No matter how much fencing you put round the Transkei you can never make the Transkei to be agriculturally viable.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : When was that? How many Whites have you in your church?
MR . Africans
RAJUILI: anywhere .
Today there are no The farms are still
White , the towns are still White . Not one White man has been told to leave the Transkei , so now he tells everybody that to look for independence is madness. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : this stage .
Mr.
THE MINISTER OF Why? Have you got a land?
AGRICULTURE :
MR. RAJUILI: You have to wait for the economic viability of the Transkei when the Government of the Republic is showing you without any hesitation that they will not put one industry into the Transkei , and that all the industries will be on the border on the White land .
At
MR. RAJUILI : Now they are trying to say " at this stage " , but we say at any other stage.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What about Butterworth and Lambasi?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You say that because you don't want it.
MR. RAJUILI : I am trying to show you that it will never be possible at any time , as the hon . the Prime Minister ably put it
MR. RAJUILI : The people of the Transkei are not as unwise as those who form
223 .
here. While you will be waiting for six hundred years , all the Whites in the Transkei, even those born, bred and nurtured
citizenship rights than be a ruler in a little country like the Transkei .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where going to get citizenship rights ?
in the Transkei , enjoy full citizenship rights here in the Transkei as well as · in the Republic to the poor White either in the Transkei or in the Republic outside. They do not have to carry a pass to come here or leave here. All these chiefs must make sure
are you
MR. RAJUILI : ...than be a ruler in a cursed Bantustan which is not independent nor ever will be in the true sense of the word and the concept of independence . The people of the Transkei would rather have free citizenship in South Africa than be in a little " pondokkie " which they can see
that they have got their passes in their pockets as soon as they leave the Transkei. (Laughter) In fact , I should say right in the streets here in Umtata, since Umtata is not
will never be free . In 1963 when they were promised independence it was supposed to be round the corner . They did not know that you did not want them to enjoy the freedom and individualism enjoyed by the Whites of the Transkei and by all the Whites in the Republic. (Interjections) They did not understand that all the time you were leading them to the wilderness where you remain to live in a luxury of some
a Black town. Now you will be making the people remain slaves and bluffing them that they will be free some day. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What are you promising them?
MR. RAJUILI: The hon. the Minister of Education would like to know what we are promising them. If it had not been for your miserable.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , answer the question . What are you promising them?
R2,000 per annum, when they get nothing and cannot be employed anywhere . If the people would know the truth of the position today, that you are now expecting that they should come and perish in the Transkei
MR. RAJUILI : We promise them that we will ask for free citizenship rights. (Interjections)
where you do not have jobs for them, when you live , as I say, in luxury that very few Whites do. By that I do not mean that the Whites only should live in that luxury .....
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is exactly what you do mean .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You
MR. RAJUILI : ... but I am saying this for the hon . member to understand me well.
promise them the moon and the stars . You are confused, as you always are .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But when you are so stupid how can we understand you?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . MR. RAJUILI: We want our people to be free both in the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa.
MR. RAJUILI: Yes , you will say that because you have made them a ladder to climb up while they perish below. Then this Government tells us that the people
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How will you get them free in the Republic ?
of the Transkei are lazy . What state will have an independence of lazy people? (Interjections) We too , like the White South Africans , are the children of South Africa,
MR. RAJUILI: What will stop them being free? (Interjections)
only that we are born perhaps in the Transkei . In fact, our people are born all over the Republic of South Africa. South Africa is
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. RAJUILI : The people do not need to wait for five hundred years to get freedom. (General uproar)
our home, and for this Government to come and tell us it is not our home and that we must seek sweet Bantu stans that are not there ! We would like to enjoy full citizenship rights inside the Transkei and in the Republic of South Africa. We cannot claim inferiority or the inferior part of the country. where we think we can be free. Even if you could be given that type of freedom that you are asking, I wonder how much freedom there could be in that state ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Hon . members , yesterday a similar disturbance took place and I was obliged to adjourn the Assembly. I do not propose to take that course today, but what I will do if this continues is to call upon the mover of the motion to reply, after which I will close the debate. I can see through this and can see that the members are eager to go to their homes , being a Friday . Carry on .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It will be free enough to allow idiots like you to speak.
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I would rather be a keeper at the house of free
MR.
224.
RAJUILI :
We shall not be made
weak by the folly of that Government party. It does not matter how many people like the hon. gentleman there they will entice to go over, we shall remain strong in will .
MR. RAJUILI: You promised him and changed your mind.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They are not enticed. They realise the folly of that side .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: ...and then he was so disappointed and frustated that he decided to flee .
MR. RAJUILI : We shall not yield to some sub- chief of a Bantustania . Mr. Chair-
MR. SINABA: Mr. stick to the subject.
MR. S.M. SINABA: Keep to the motion .
man , this side of the House rejects the motion of independence as moved and
Chairman , he must
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is also one other important reason , which I ascribe to Communism.
amended by the Government , in favour of the amendment that we have moved asking the Republican Government to guarantee full citizenship rights to the citizens of the Transkei inside the Transkei and in the Republic of South Africa.
MR. C. DIKO : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman ...
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I have not referred to you yet.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the members need not be worried because , for the first time , I will not exhaust my allotment of thirty minutes , for the simple reason that so much stupidity has been enunciated in this House and for the other reason that
MR . DIKO : The hon. Minister is definitely imputing improper motives . He can never prove that the hon. member left the party because he could not get a Cabinet post, THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I can prove that.
all that can be said for and against the motions before the House has already been said. All I want to draw the attention of the House to , which I consider is also
MR. DIKO: He is motives, Mr. Chairman .
of importance , is the origin of the mover of the original motion, which will show the House whether a man of his calibre or
imputing improper
THE CHAIRMAN : There is nothing in that. Carry on.
description could ever bring a motion to lead people to independence , and what
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Also, he came to the Transkei with a capitalist Jew, a swindler, and asked me to give him the green light to distribute castor seed in the Transkei.
following he has not only in this House but outside as well. The only following he has in the House is a prodigal son from the stray DP who went further astray and joined him . (Laughter) Nobody knows whether he is stationed there and for how long, because as we know, the leader is a man
MR . RAJUILI : Discuss the motion of independence .
who was first of all DP , then TNIP and now he calls himself Freedom something or other which , of course , has got the stink of Communism . In our African society and Bantu custom we never give any trust to a loose person. Any woman who marries and
THE MINISTER OF That I definitely refused.
AGRICULTURE :
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, we appeal to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to desist from talking about individuals . He must keep to the subject of the discussion . We would also ask that he use respectable language.
the next day discards her husband for somebody else we call a " dikazi " and not fit to rear children . Now I ask you to regard the leader of that party as a "dikazi" . THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had better withdraw those words .
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. THE MINISTER OF Well, as an itinerant....
AGRICULTURE : THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I refused this because I knew so much about these swindler Jews and we heard that he
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had better withdraw first.
distributed this seed , promising that he would collect the produce and the people of course invested in this seed, but the money disappeared into thin air with this
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I withdraw, Mr. Chairman . Now, coming to the history of why he left that party, I do not know why he left the DP. Perhaps he was wise enough, but I know the reason why he left us . It was because there happened to be a Cabinet post to which he
rich Jew. What I am trying to drive at is that he could not have got this money from any people because all the people who grew this be an would kill him if they saw him , because I think everybody who is worth his salt here was a victim to him, even my
aspired....
225.
he misconstrued · selling the policy of separate development. He is thinking of selling as barter. I do not know where he could do it, because he had such difficulty in explaining words here yesterday · in-
Cabinet colleague. The hon . member should stand up now and explain where that big factory in Soweto is now. I think the hon . the Chief Minister himself was a victim . Now, Sir, I am just showing the kind of man he is and whether he would be a true leader
dependence and freedom. I think the only man who could have tried to rescue the situation was the hon. the Leader of the
of the people to independence, because just the little he could do he has swindled the people. He was supposed to make hundreds of rand for the people and he did not even come round for the proceeds . Now he sent me some manifestos depicting my
Opposition, for I must admit that he commands a wider vocabulary even than mine , (Laughter) in English but not in Xhosa. Now that quotation which the hon . member quoted, (which was mysterious because he
son-in-law who has never paid me " lobola” , but I did not begrudge him that because he is my son- in-law. I did him a good service because I kept the papers and distributed them on the 13th April · the day after the election . (Laughter) That is why he got no votes in Eastern Pondoland . I am telling the truth. (Interjections) Now there seems to be misunderstanding between the pair of leaders. I do not know which is the leader of the other, because he was the erstwhile leader until the budding leader came along who shouts like a member of the United Nations (Laughter) and , of course , is loud enough to be heard about a hundred yards from this House . He says the motion is asking the Transkei Govemment to request the Republican Government to set
did not reveal its origin and the most essential part of a quotation is to reveal its origin, as I am going to quote presently and reveal a quotation from New South Wales , Australia) when he spoke of selling our policy , what he really meant , if it is not fictitious , was that he was making it practical to the world and it needed a strong spine and who is not like a " dikazi " . So he said the man who is selling our policy so that the world will now be given to realise its significance is Kaiser Matanzima of the Transkei . What is wrong with that? Just as you are trying to sell Mrs. Suzman's policy here (very ineffectively) but we don't blame you for that because you will not become Mrs. Suzman. So much for that. You must know that selling is not barter or anything like that . It is showing the people the true significance so that people can appreciate it, and the world today is beginning to realise the significance of separate development.
a date for independence and when he was questioned by way of interjection by one of the Cabinet Ministers as to who was going to fix the date, or who was going to forward the request to the Republican Government seeing that the Transkei Government is a puppet · mind you , this is what the hon. Mr. Diko replied · that the Transkei Government was going to do that. Yet the motion requests the Transkei Government to request the Republican Government to do it. So it shows that there is no " bunga" between the two .
MR . 0.0 . MPONDO: Which world? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Southern Rhodesia today is considering self-development on the same lines . People from America say that if they could they would reverse their policy of multi-racialism or integration in favour of separate development. (Interjections) The Scots and the Welsh in Great Britain would, if they could, also revert to separate development, and it does not matter who is selling it. It is only to prove that it is successful . Last, but not least, I quote here from the Herald of New South Wales which gives a very favourable picture of the Leader of the Opposition. If I were a jealous man , like the hon. member from Maluti , I would never utter a single sentence quoted here , but I am going to do so because I am sincere and will give a man credit where credit is due. It says : "The Leader of the Opposition in the Transkei , who is the leader of the Democratic Party, Mr. Knowledge Guzana , a Bantu attorney with the poise and quickness of mind that would permit him to grace any parliament..." Hurray! Doesn't this prove my sincerity when I can quote high praise to my opponent?
MR. DIKO: Any resolution made by this House must be made to the Republican Government by your Government . THE MINISTER OF Now, so much for those that Hydra-headed leader. them Hydra head because
AGRICULTURE : double leaders · (Laughter) I call as soon as you
cut one off, two others grow in its place . MR. DIKO: When are you coming to the subject? THE
MINISTER
OF
AGRICULTURE :
Now I move to the Chief Whip of the Opposition . Well , I do give him some credit for saying things in the most unpalatable way. The Scriptures say: Ask and it shall be given; but I have never heard the Scriptures quoted as : Swear and it shall be given . (Laughter) I have not got the tongue to repeat the foul repertoire he had in regard to this motion , but I can as sure him that as long as he uses such bombastic , such diabolical language no society on e arth
MR. RAJUILI : Now we know what is meant by satire .
will ever listen to any request of his . Well , Sir, I will just single out one word which
THE
226 .
MINISTER
OF
AGRICULTURE :
further
No, no. I will read on: "... but Mr. Guzana also agreed that the Bantu needed time
You
THE
MINISTER
OF
have
efforts to
separate
the
gate the fields of the Republic with as little effort as possible , and that water of life represents the power and physical strength of the sons of the Transkei . The mines which give millions and millions of rand per annum are the result of the labours' of the children of the Transkei . The very industries which provide so much wealth for this country are manned by the children of the Transkei , and this Government tries to prevent the children of the Transkei from
three
AGRICULTURE :
holding on to the Republic of South Africa which was as their land . They want them to go to the Republic with their hats in their hands . We want the hon. the Chief Minister to tell us how he is going to get the people of the Transkei out of this difficulty which they are already in, because he says they are not prepared to put the people of the Transkei in a position from which they cannot extricate them. How is he going
Oh, then I will skip the quotation . There is a lot about me here , but for the sake of modesty I will not quote it. (Laughter) " Mr. Guzana thought it was wrong to give these states independence ( those are the African states) because they were not ripe . " I suppose he still sings that tune when you say that the Transkei is not ripe , just as the other African states were not ripe ; but what father is going to say to a son who is 14 or 15 , and he is just going for circumcision: "Now, my son, I will never allow you to marry . " When you say that the Government says when the time is ripe , you questioned that and said it was insincerity, but there are certain factors to be con-
to extricate them? Will he tell us how he will solve the difficulties of the Transkei people by dispossessing them of the Republic? He compares the situation with Basutoland, saying that since they attained independence the Basutoland people are going about hat in hand asking for financial assistance because they are so poor. If I am right it is not Basutoland that asked for independence from England, and even if it was , Basutoland was not part and parcel of England in the same way as we are part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa. On that account England will be under no
sidered. It is not only his age , because there is his integrity, his usefulness in the home and other considerations , but you find that if he still persists in wanting a wife then you give him a wife and a kraal. What would happen to a son if the father said: "No, my son , I will never give you a wife ?" He was surprised and yet he promised the people no limited time . He says people should subscribe for as long as they live....
moral obligation as regards Basutoland , as the Republic is or should be in regard to the Transkei . If we could refer to the numbers of people who have been entombed in the mines of South Africa it would be discovered that thousands and thousands of the children of the Transkei are amongst
MR . RAJUILI : Who is " he " ? THE ...and he he does even the collects.
the
Transkei from the rest of the Republic is an attempt to use that water of life to irri-
for preparation. " Our policy is still pursued , I suppose , but how does it tally with immediate freedom which he today wants , as against separate development ? It goes a long way, however, because it shows the wisdom of waiting and preparation and it shows wisdom of the Government in not giving independence to the Transkei . THE CHAIRMAN : minutes more .
that
MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : does not give them independence ; not give them any subsistence , old people from whom he still
those unfortunates , and that situation continues to this day. Is it right that the people of the Transkei should be told that the place grandchildren where their children and have given up their lives in their work does not belong to them? Does the hon. the Chief Minister liken South Africa to the sea that
MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, the hon. the Chief Minister in his address said: "We are not prepared to put the people of the Transkei in a position from which we cannot extricate them. I
swallowed the sons of South Africa during World War I? We cannot even erect a monument to those children who were drowned in the sea. Does he maintain that we have no right in that land, although our children have died in the mines and their graves are in the mines ? The Government side ask how we are going to make South Africa our country . That is a question that should
would like to start with that point in referring to the discussion. This side of the House believes without any doubt and hesitation that the Transkei is only a part of the Republic of South Africa. They believe without fear of contradiction that South Africa is what it is because of the efforts being made in the Transkei , as well as anywhere else in the Republic. They believe further that the wealth of the Republic of South Africa is the result of the labours of the sons of the Transkei . They believe further that the life of the Republic is based on the stream of the water of life that comes from the Transkei . They believe
only be asked by a fool. I might as well ask how they know that after. death they will inherit the kingdom of Heaven. In any event the position between South Africa and the Transkei is one of integration, and that is true and it is becoming more and more clear. THE question.
CHIEF MINISTER :
Answer the
MR . MDA: I have answered the question .
227.
Bantu people ? I would like to know whether the farms where our people work are not the life-blood of the people . I do not know how we can increase the land . South Africa is large enough. We do not want any increase in the land. South Africa is large enough. We do not want any increase in the land. All we maintain is that we are part and parcel of South Africa as it is . (Interjections) It is most unfortunate that a Black man is telling the White man that another Black man is dangerous to his kinsmen . This is the time for us to show the White man that we are big-hearted enough to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , we have been waiting. MR . MDA: If history were not full of evidence to the effect that conditions which had been taken for granted eventually had to be changed, there would be justification for the Government party being doubtful about the situation . There are White people in the Republic who maintain that the Bantu of the Transkei are part and parcel of the Republic, and it is a lie to say the White people do not want us. It is only portion of a certain section of the White people who say this . (Interjections) It is that section whose civilization only dates back a hundred years or so. I refer to the Afrikaner population of South Africa and it is that section which says the Bantu people of the Transkei should be separated. Those are the people who fear the Bantu people. They fear competition with the Bantu people because the Bantu are fast overtaking them. They fear for the position which they have. recently attained because they have been the poor Whites in the past. It seems to them that if opportunities are made available for the Bantu then they will be turned out of employment, and yet there is room for many people in employment.
pardon and that although they have been blood- suckers for over a hundred years we are still prepared to live in harmony with them. (Interjections) I cannot help the dead mind of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture. As I speak now his grandson is in the mines in Johannesburg, but the laws and regulations governing the labour of his grandson do not emanate from this Parliament. As I speak now another of his grandsons is working in a factory in Durban , but the regulations and bye-laws observed in that factory do not emanate from this Parliament. He is encouraging a situation whereby his son must go to work under those conditions , and the wages earned by his grandson must be determined by laws not emanating from this Parliament. He must leave his wife and family at home to go and find work in the work centres in Durban and Johannes-
Has the MINISTER: will they that indicated English ? people African the to rights give full MR. MDA: I have already said that there are White people in the Republic who maintain that the Transkei is part of the Republic. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They claim it for themselves , not for you . MR . MDA: When the non- Europe ans ' representatives in the Republican Government were abolished several questions
this separation of fathers and families as the Government is doing? Shall we encourage
were asked about it. Many people claimed that the non-Europeans should be represented in the Republican Parliament because laws are passed there affecting the nonEuropeans. The hon. the Chief Minister maintains they want us as part of the Republic.
this separatist attitude instead of ensuring that wherever our children work they will be able to buy property and own it? The White people took over three hundred years to have self-rule over South Africa; the Roman Empire , in spite of its lengthy existence, did eventually fall; and simi-
THE
CHIEF
section
burg. When he gets there he meets young ladies there and he forgets his family at home. And while he is away his wife is tempted and children are born in the family who do not belong to the father of that family . Must we encourage our own people to have no self- respect? Shall we encourage
larly, the British Empire is falling to pieces even today . The winds of change will some time affect even the Afrikaner kingdom, but it is defeatists like you people who are interested in the temporary advantage that you can derive who are unable to face the hard facts of life and struggle , full knowing that your struggles , even if it takes two hundred years , will ultimately be fruitful . However, I am not surprised that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture cannot take that line because they have increased their salaries by the whole amount that we were receiving. They are only interested in their own persons all the time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They want the Transkei , not you. MR. MDA: If they want the Transkei they will take us with the Transkei as a whole. Where will they send us to, may I ask? The pity is that what is happening in the Transkei will convince even those who believe in the magnanimity of the . Bantu , because when this Government came into force there were many European people who did not agree with what was being done and they said they would not leave the Transkei . (Interjections ) Today , however , some of them are thinking of leaving and others have already left. The hon, the Chief Minister says , they only wanted to prey on us, confirming what he said at Qaukeni that the European people were bugs sucking the blood of the Bantu people. Aren't the mines sucking the blood of the
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION . The
228 .
Assembly resumed
at 2.30 p.m.
The debate was resumed.
all the racial groups in the Republic of South Africa. It must be remembered that any policy or ideology or any system of government embarked upon by the ruling party at that stage is not a permanent thing because if perfection is an attempt towards perfection the future generation is going to have to formulate their own standard of living when they have discovered the flaws in our own system of living or philosophy of life . At present, therefore , we can safely say with all our human thinking that separate development is the policy which should be accepted . (Interjections) Listen , hon . member , I gave you enough time when you were speaking . Mr. Chairman , I do not want to quote at length the opinions of the intellectual giants of this country .
MR. P. SOBAHLE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , I think of all the Transkei an citizens we have , the 109 members we have in this House form the forefront of Transkei an citizenship. Therefore , what is citizenship? It is a contribution of instructed information to wards the public role , so that each time we stand up to speak we must contribute towards the public role . There has been an attempt here to deny the same meaning between the two words " independence " and "freedom" . Freedom is freedom. Now I want to give you a definition from a dictionary which cannot be obtained in the Transkei . That dictionary can only be obtained in the Universities . (Interjections) Freedom is synonymous with independence liberty; is autonomy, the self-determination of racial beings - that
I will quote only three opinions from three people. Dr. Malan in his manifesto for the general election in 1948 declared : " The principle of territorial segregation between Whites and Natives is in general accepted . The Native Reserves must be come the true fatherland of the Native . A greater variety of economic undertakings will gradually be established to bring greater economic stability and directivity to the Reserves . " Now, the Lion of the North, the late Prime Minister J.G. Strydom , said in 1955 : " Nonwhites should be given the opportunity to develop in their own areas under the guidance of the Whites , in so far as they developed in accordance with the systems which conform best with their nature and traditions , to govern themselves and to serve their own community in all the various fields of their national life . " Now, the National
is , the ability of a man to think, will and act in relation to responsible ideas. So there is no difference therefore between freedom and independence . The independence of the individual , or individual independence , is not merely a set of phrases , but it is a collection of rights the right to live where we choose; to worship where we will; to engage ourselves at any type of work or profession; the right to be educated in any school or college . In short, therefore , freedom means productive and creative living within the limit of one's capacity . Only a free man then can enjoy these rights , but being free does not give this assurance that the rights will be performed . Therefore what is more important is the creation of opportunities for the performance of these rights . I say both sides of the House (in other words , the three parties) agree on one
Congress of 1913 said this : " While Bantu people will gladly welcome the policy of territorial separation of the races , if carried on on fair and equitable lines , they will bind themselves ..." I think I need not go any further regarding the aspect of the separateness of the races of this country . The unfortunate thing is the lack of intelligence on the part of the members of
point and that is freedom, or independence , or whatever word you like , but the Opposition Party maintains it must not be the freedom of Transkeian citizenship but the freedom of every racial group . The Government side still upholds the same principle of independence , but not immediate independence . The other party maintains that freedom must be immediate. In other words , we have a common ground of in-
this House . Intelligence is the fitting of means to ends · in other words it is the power to suit our actions to the needs of the situation . Hence this side of the House says we are agreed on the principle of
dependence or freedom. All we need now is the method to be applied in the achievement of that freedom . I am now giving the candid position of the three parties concerned . This is not a partisan point of view, but a statement of fact . Now in an attempt to demonstrate the difference between the two words we have reverted to the motion of no confidence where we debated the difference
independence and the opposite side is still agreed on that principle .... MR .
K.M.
GUZANA:
Who
said that?
MR. SOBAHLE: .... but unfortunately the other side says it must be independence of all the racial groups of the country . It is not in their power to effect that.
between the three parties . I do not want to repeat myself because repetition is the food of fools . The policy of multi -racialism was fully canvassed by me the other day and I
THE
showed how impracticable it is for this policy to be accepted by the present generation . I quoted the intellectual giants who have been asked now to compose an alternative to separate development, and no other intellectual giant has been able to come up with an alternative that will satisfy
CHIEF
MINISTER :
Hear ,
hear .
MR . SOBAHLE : In all countries the policy of a self- governing state has always been determined by the mother country and separateness is not a thing unique in South Africa. Let us look at Syria and Israel today . They have just been separated now in the last few years . I can still quote other
229.
countries where there has been this separare ther tion . Gentlemen, true nobility lies in seizing an opportunity when it is offered . No one nation was ever given a state on a silver
now call upon the mover of the motion to reply.
platter as you have been given in the Transkei . Independence or territorial position has always been fought for. The flag may look like a dirty piece of linen but it is the most costly thing in the world. You have not fought for it · it has just been given to you for the taking. All other countries have fought to attain their self-government . During the vote of no confidence I said a man becomes noble in his eyes and in the eyes of his oppressors when he separates himself from his human brothers who refuse him that he should assert his identity and maturity , and he goes to establish himself elsewhere ; and those human brothers who have thwarted and throttled
hon. members, the subject is now understood on all sides and the motion has been fully
MR .
S.M.
SINABA:
Mr. Chairman and
discussed by the hon . members . Unfortunately, I have not been given a satisfactory answer to the motion . There is a reason why we want to be independent and everyone sees that reason . Not one of the speakers here has suggested even to an outsider the reason why we want freedom . They all showed cowardice because they feared that by becoming independent they might be destroyed . All we could experience is hardship and the nails piercing us. It is useless to come here year after year and to be told that everything will be right. We are compelled to listen to the Government when they say we are in too much of a hurry, but what does the Government think of the hardships we experience? · Hunger , disease ,
him can see in the slave of yesterday his e qual . Any self-governing state knows that its ultimate goal is independence . Selfgovernment is logically connected with independence or freedom , as you call it. You would not like a child who , when he is born, should be made to remain a baby for the rest of his life and would never be able even to walk. So it is the case in a self-governing state. All that is required
shortage of employment, low wages . The thing is that we are dying right now. Must we die because of money? If you do not see eye to eye with this party in that we are definitely suffering , what suggestion have you go to make ? I have been listening to wonderful speeches but the point is I am hungry now. (Interjections) The hon . the Chief Minister has stated that the Transkei cannot stand on its own feet at this stage because there is no money. Where shall we get this money? If money is coming in , what are we eating meanwhile ? All the members
of us is to seize the instruments that come by it. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , I was not going to speak at length on this , but I was prompted by what was said by the hon. member for Maluti . When we come to this chamber we must not come here to display our ignorance. If you have nothing to say, don't say it . It is better to keep quiet than to speak to the gallery all the time. It is high time we took things very seriously. We have all the time outside this chamber to laugh and gaze about, but once we come to this House we must be collected and controlled and realise that we are the repre-
have spoken about freedom and independence . Some of the members stated that we cannot stand independently because the other departments have not been handled over to us . We can have those things after independence has been granted. They will be there because we will do them. In your replies you stated that the children of the Transkei are still backward. Who are these
sentatives of the people. We have not come here on our own and therefore we must always be conscious of the fact that we have come to represent the people. Honourable gentlemen, as I said the other day the question of independence or freedom whatever you call it rests with the Government
people who are backward? It is you yourselves , the leaders . People will always remain in the same situation because you , the leaders , have not taken any step forward . We are not satisfied that the Transkei cannot stand on its own feet or that the
and it will remain in the minds of the people and the Government that the ultimate goal is independence . The mere fact that you have been coming to this House for the
time is not ripe . I want something to be explained to the people. How long are we going to stay like this ? Why do we embark on something when we do not know when the date of fulfilment will be? Surely you
last four years should prove that the Government is treading steadily in the path of truth . Mr. Chairman , every government is conscious of its responsibilities towards the people , because it knows that it does not matter what system of government it pursues, if it is not on the side of justice and progress of men of good will, it is doomed to inevitable destruction . In conclusion , gentlemen , let us not waste ' our words now. We are all agreed on the principle . of independence , but now who controls the time ? The time is for the Govern-
can be in a position to tell us that we shall remain in this situation for so many years? Every time we discuss this we are told the time is not ripe . Now let us look at the se people . They earn big sums of money; they travel about freely and have no trouble about passes . That makes people dissatisfied when they are told that the time has not come. All I want is that the Transkei should be told when they will get this freedom.
ment. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : the right time .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , I shall
230.
At
MR. SINABA: You say at the right time . We will tell you the time because we are hungry . We would like the Transkei Government to tell us , if we cannot get independence now, when we shall get it.
ANNOUNCEMENT.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Last week. (Laughter) MR . SINABA: I am rather disappointed in the hon. Ministers because when we are expecting to get what we want they should lead the way . Instead of that we get insults , and if the hon. Ministers go to other countries I wonder what people will think of them. They know perfectly well they cannot even go to Basutoland and that is why they say the Transkei is wrong, but it is they who are wrong. Listen to the lies spoken by the hon . the Minister of Agriculture in connection with castor seed. I did not know he could formulate a pack of lies . He cannot even reply to his lies . The Transkeian citizens are asking for freedom and all you say is that it is not yet. time . They want to know what they must do about their hardships . All I can say is that people will not cease asking for freedom . They will continually ask for it. All they want is freedom . I did not know I was an important figure in those two parties. After leaving one party they kept crying : Where is Sinaba? The hon . member for
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I will again appeal to the Whips on both sides of the House against the practice of members coming late to the Assembly. I would like once more to order a roll call, in which case members are going to complain . They seem to forget that they are representing the people here but they are not prepared to do anything for the people . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I have the respect to announce to this House the absence of two Ministers . The others who are absent I have not been informed as to the reason for their absence . The hon. the Chief Minister is away in the Ciskei on official business . I received a telephonic communication from the private secretary of the hon . the Minister of Justice to the effect that he is indisposed and that he hopes to be in the House on Wednesday . The hon . the Chief Minister will be back in the House tomorrow .
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL : SECOND READING.
Maluti is still crying: Where is Sinaba? Even across the floor the hon . the Minister of Agriculture cries: Where is Sinaba ? (Laughter) I did not know I was so important. You must try and think why I left your party .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. members will recall that in delivering my
hon .
a bill to provide for a pension fund for the teachers of the Transkei . Amongst other things I said that the Bill is a culmination extensive investigation , consolidation and negotiation on the subject of a suitable pension fund for teachers. I went further to say that the passing of the Bill by this Assembly would be an important milestone in the efforts of my Department to provide
(Interjections ) I appeal to all the members now to vote for this motion.
policy speech last week I mentioned that during this session I would be introducing
THE SECRETARY: The question is a motion by the hon . Mr. S.M. Sinaba, to which two amendments have been moved , the first by the hon. the Chief Minister and the second by the hon. member for Fingoland , Mr. 0.0 . Mpondo . I shall put the second amendment first . If the amendment is agreed to the original motion falls away and I shall put the motion as amended.
adequate and up to date pension benefits for officers and employees of the Transkei Government. I would therefore request the hon . members to treat this Bill with all the
The amendment by the hon . Mr. 0.0 . Mpondo was lost by 27 votes to 54.
importance that it deserves . Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members , I rise today to move the second reading of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Bill.
The amendment by the hon . the Chief Minister was carried by 52 votes to 2.
The motion
amended was
as
carried
by 52 votes to 25.
You will recall that during 1965 the Tran skei an Teachers Pension Fund Act
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday , 22nd May , 1967.
(Act No. 7 of 1965) was put on the statute book. That Act was a mere enabling measure providing for the establishment, by regulation, of a pension fund for Transkeian teachers . It was realised at the time that teachers could also become members of
MONDAY, 22ND MAY, 1967. The
Assembly
resumed.
at
11
a.m. the Transkei
Government Employees Pen-
sion and Gratuity Fund which is governed by the provisions of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 , but on advice of the Government
Prayers were read .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
Actuaries , it was deemed best to establish a separate pension fund for Transkei an
231.
teachers.
It was never intended that they should be prejudiced by their transfer to the Transkei Administration and for this reason provision
When regulations in terms of the 1965 Act were being drafted, the question again arose whether the creation of a separate
is being made in the Bill for the payment to them by the Transkeian Government of amounts that they would otherwise forfeit.
fund exclusively for teachers was really justified. By then it was clear that the control of two separate but almost identical funds would not only constitute administrative hurdles but would complicate matters and cause a good deal of confusion . An
In a few instances employees came over from the Republican Service before they qualified for any annuity or gratuity . They will also in terms of the provisions of this Bill receive benefits they would have been entitled to had they remained in the service of the Republican Government.
important argument for the creation of a separate fund for teachers also disappeared when it became manifest that the transfer
These are the main features of this Bill. I shall now deal with the different
of benefits from the Cape Teachers Pension Fund to the proposed fund would not materiali se .
sections and explain the purpose and function of each of them.
Members will recall that during 1965 I indicated that my Department was negotiating for such a transfer. The Cape Provincial Administration has however, indicated that all contributions paid to that Fund are absorbed as partial set-off against benefits paid out to contributors. Contributions are by no means sufficient to meet obligations and there is an annual shortfall which is met from the Consolidated Revenue Fund . There are thus no available moneys held in the fund on behalf of any specific teacher or group of teachers. At one time it was
CLAUSE 1 This clause
concerns those persons
who , as I have just mentioned , did not at any time contribute to a pension fund and who were transferred from the Republican Government service to the service of the Transkei Government. Whilst serving under the Republican Government they enjoyed certain special pension benefits provided by section 69 of the Government Service Pensions Act No. 58 of 1955 , despite the fact that they were neither members of nor contributors to a pension fund .
thought that such moneys would best be administered if kept in a separate fund
Under the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , the liability of the Government of the Republic in this respect is limited to the amount which would have been payable to the persons concerned if they had left the service of the Government of the Republic on the day on which they commenced duty with the Transkei Government.
but with the transfer thereof not being possible the creation of a separate fund must also be viewed from a different angle . HOL
For these reasons I am today asking for the repeal of Act No. 7/1965 and for measures which will enable teachers to join the existing Transkeian Government Employees Pension and Gratuity Fund . I am not asking for any enabling measures as was done in 1965, and I think the honourable the Leader of the Opposition will be delighted to hear this for in 1965 he labelled such a step as dangerous and stated it placed powers of legislation in the hands of a Minister . If the Bill before the Assembly
In the absence of special legislation , those persons would consequently not enjoy. any similar pension benefits in respect of their service under the Transkei Government, · and the object of the present clause is therefore to adjust the position in their favour. It will be noted that there are several
is accepted every employee or official will be able to determine what his rights or obligations are without having to refer to any regulations that are still to be framed.
sub- clauses under clause 1 , each dealing with a separate aspect of the matter as follows.
This Bill does however, not only deal with the pension rights of teachers . It also provides for the supplementation of the annuities or gratuities payable by the Government of the Republic to those persons who did not at any time contribute to a pension or provident fund and who were transferred to the Service of the Government of the Transkei in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963.
Sub- clause ( 1) (a) (i) . This sub-clause provides the basis on which gratuities and annuities are to be calculated. It will be seen that the nature of the benefit as well as the amount payable in each case are dependent on length of service and on pensionable emoluments .
take
fall employees 400 Approximately within this category , the majority of whom occupy non-prescribed posts, or who are unskilled workers , and do not. therefore qualify for admission to a pension fund .
A notable effect of this provision is to into account the full period of
continuous service, dating from its commencement under the Republican Govemment, for the purpose of determining the benefit to be paid.
232.
The provision in the concluding portion of the sub-clause relating to the conversion of annuity to a gratuity will benefit the person s affected by allowing for a lump sum payment in place of smaller payments spread over a long period. Sub-clause ( 1) ( a) (ii) In the Republic , an employee has to have a minimum of 5 years' continuous service to qualify for benefits under the scheme . Some employees who came over to the Transkei Government had less than 5 years' continuous service at the date of their transfer, and were therefore not entitled to any pension benefits in respect service under the Republican of their Government .
employees . It is a consequential provision in the light of the provisions of paragraph 9(2) of the Second Schedule of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963. A similar provision exists in section 30(3) of Act 58 of 1955 (the Republican Pension Act) , except that in that case the allocation of any pension moneys amongst dependants is decided by the Treasury and not by the Minister of the Interior as is now provided for by this sub-clause .
Sub-clause (4) . This sub-clause makes the provisions of the whole clause retrospective with a view to the payment of the additional moneys to persons who have already retired from the Transkeian Government Service .
Under this sub-clause, however, such employees of the Transkei Government will now become eligible for the prescribed pension benefits on retirement or discharge, with the added advantage of being able to
CLAUSE 2 . This clause deals exclusively with the position of teachers in relation to pension matters.
include any period of continuous service under the Republican Government, no matter how short in their total period of continuou s service for the purposes of detemining the pension payable.
In the introduction to my speech , I sketched the background of the protracted efforts made to provide a pension scheme for Transkeian teachers, and which have now culminated in the present draft legislation. It is naturally my fervent hope that it will meet with the approval of the Assem16 bly.
Sub-clause ( 1) (b) In terms of this provision , dependants of employees are assured of receiving those benefits to which they would have been entitled had the employee concerned remained in the service of the Republic an Government. Both that Government and the Transkei Government will each be responsible for its share of the relative
It will be noted that the clause substitutes a completely new section for the existing section eleven of the Transkei Education Act, 1966, and embodies therein a full set of pension provisions for teachers , or "departmental officials" as they are referred to in that Act. These provisions are the result of full consultation with the Government Actuaries (Messrs . J.A. Carson and Partners of Johannesburg) the Provin-
gratuity payable to dependants . The sub-clause also extends benefits to the dependants of employees who had less than five years service with the Republican Government at the date of the latters' transfer to the Transkei Government. By virtue 1 ( a) (ii ) hanced by from the
cial and
of the provisions of sub- clause the amount payable will be enthe dating of continuous service commencement of service under
authorities , Republican
and with all Transkei an Departments concerned.
Sub-clause ( 1) I will now comment on each sub- section of the new section eleven:
the Republican Government.
Sub-section (1) sub- section preserves Thi s and protects the accrued rights of all teachers who are contributing to pension funds administered by the Provincial administrations , and is virtually a re- statement of a similar protection of such rights afforded by paragraph 4 of the Second Schedule of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 .
Sub-clause (2) This sub- clause provides for a basis on which gratuities or annuities are to be calculated in relation to pensionable emoluments , and is required to be read in conjunction with my remarks on sub-clauses 1 ( a) ( i ) and 1 ( a) (ii) . In terms of this provision gratuities or annuities will be calculated on the emoluments received whilst in the service of the Transkei an Government. No person shall be entitled. to argue that had he remained in the Republican service he would have eamed a bigger salary and that for that reason his gratuity or annuity should be calculated on a different and more favourable basis .
In effect, this means that a teacher who elects to cease to contribute to a provincial pension fund will , on retirement at the pensionable age , be paid those benefits which had accrued to him from that fund at the date on which he ceased to contribute to it.
Sub-clause ( 3) It will be noted that this sub-clause is also concerned with the dependants of
Sub- section ( 2) This sub- section deals entirely with
233.
financial matters .
trative point of view would be the 1st April, 1966 , as that was the date from which all teachers ' salaries would be paid from
Paragraph ( a) provides for rand-for rand contributions payable to pension funds by the Transkei Government , and is a re- enactment of a similar provision in paragraph 2 of the Second Schedule of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963.
Umtata by means of a mechanised process. Sub-clause (3) This sub-clause makes provision for the payment of arre ar contributions, and does not, I think, require any explanation .
Paragraph (b) places an obligation on the Transkei Government to pay its share of any shortfall which may occur in Provincial pension funds as a result of annuities, allowances and bonuses paid to retired Transkei an teachers the exceeding amounts contributed
Circumstances
Occur
from the beginning , in which case it is necessary to recover the arrears from him at a percentage rate within his individual means .
the Republican Govemment had to meet the shortfall from the Consolidated Revenue Fund.
Sub-clause (4) This sub- clause regulates the commencing date of pensionable service under circumstances , and will affect various teachers as follows:-
Sub- section (3) This sub-section is a vital one in that it virtually creates a pension fund for Transkeian teachers by providing for their inclusion- in the existing Transkeian Government Employees' Pension and Gratuity Fund established by Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 read
All teachers who were in the service of the Transkei Government on 1st April , 1966 , and who at the time were not contributing to any pension fund, will be permitted to date their pensionable service from that date , regardless of the fact that they may have commenced contributing to the Transkei an pension fund only at a later date . This provision also applies to all such teachers over the age of 40 years who in terms of section 5( 1 ) of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 are required to elect
Transkei
The proviso to this sub- section is merely designed to simplify and facilitate the procedure by which teachers who are over 40 years of age may be admitted to the fund . Under the existing regulation all teachers of that age group are required to elect in writing, within a specified period , to join the fund before they may be admitted thereto. I must just mention in passing that all officers and employees under the age of 40 are , in terms of the Proclamation , obliged to contribute to the fund , in other words , they have no choice in the matter . Sub- clause ( 2) This sub-clause fixes
sometimes
on which pension deductions are first made from his salary. Or , it might happen , of course, that he is found to be contributing at a lower rate than he should have done
by such teachers. A shortfall of this nature occurs every year in the Cape Teachers' Pension Fund , and prior to self-government in the Transkei
with Section 61(3) of the Constitution Act, 1963.
do
where it is necessary for a contributor to pay arrears from a date prior to the date
in writing to join the fund and contribute at the correspondingly higher rates . Teachers who belong to a provincial pension fund and elect to cease contributing to that fund for the purpose of joining the Transkei an fund will only be permitted to date their pensionable service under the latter fund from a date after the date when they cease to become members of the provincial fund concerned . This is in accordance
the date from with the provisions of paragraph 3 of the Second Schedule of the Transkei
which the provisions of sub-section (3) become operative , namely 1st April, 1966 .
Constitution Act, 1963. It is not permissible to contribute from an earlier date as no person is entitled or has the right to contribute to more than one government-aided pension fund at the same time. In the case of teachers who
This aspect of the matter was very carefully gone into with the actuaries and it was found that recognition of past service in the case of teachers would involve the Transkei Government in exorbitant if not prohibitive costs , in view of the fact that there were over 2000 teachers who were
are appointed after the 1st April , 1966, pensionable service will operate only from the date when they commence
not contributing to any pension fund and who were therefore eligible for admission to the Transkeian Fund . There was there-
contributing to the pension fund, which in practice will be from the date of their appointment.
fore no alternative, if the pension scheme was to be launched , but to fix a date prior to which no service would be recognised for pension purposes. Finally it was decided that the most suitable date from an adminis-
CLAUSE 3 . The repeal by this clause of the Transkeian Teachers ' Pension Fund Act, 1965 , is a natural consequence of the inclusion
234.
of teachers in the Transkeian Government
qualified for a pension and the Republican Government would have had to subsidize
Employees' Pension and Gratuity Fund . For the benefit of those honourable members
the Cape Pension Fund out of the Con solidated Revenue Fund, why is the Cape Provincial fund not willing to transfer that
who may not be acquainted with the latter fund , I would just like to mention that Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 governing the fund is in itself a complete body of regulations and does not therefore require to be supplemented by any other legislation for that purpose at this stage , other than what is provided for by the present Bill .
money which it would have paid to the Transkei Government , and have that money standing to the credit of that particular teacher under the pension fund now being established under this Act? If I remember, as a teacher I used to have a deduction from my salary at the end of every month .
CLAUSE 4 .
THE
This clause merely provides the short title of the Act.
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION :
Have you been paid out? MR.
Mr. Chairman , I now move that the Bill be read a second time.
GUZANA :
That is my gravamen
of complaint and it seems to me most unethical of the Cape Provincial Administration to tell us now that there is no money standing to the credit of any specific teacher or group of teachers , when that teacher actually contributed out of his
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman .
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this Bill deals with a very
salary monthly . What has happened to that money? I do believe that if there are no benefits to be added to that direct con-
complicated subject that touches the employees of the Transkei together with the teachers , and because it requires very careful study I shall not open my mouth too wide at this stage . What with annuities
tribution , at least that direct contribution , plus interest on it , should be paid over to the Transkei Government to stand to the credit of this teacher. While we expect this sort of thing from any Government , because all Governments are reluctant to part with money (Laughter) we feel this is most unethical indeed. I am happy to know that this Bill is not
and gratuities and all that sort of thing , who knows if he is looking to the back or the front? (Laughter) I must mention that in 1965 , when we commented on the Bill that was brought before this House , which became Act No. 7 of 1965 , we did make
an enabling bill but is an enactment setting out specifically the provisions which will apply to this pension fund . Human nature being what it is , whenever a Minister acts under an enabling act there is a tendency for favouri-
mention of certain principles which we felt should be observed in drafting a Bill dealing with pensions , and one of the points which was canvassed was the transfer of moneys standing to the credit of teachers who had
tism and similar injustices to be practised , and the hon . the Minister of the Interior
been contributing to the Cape Provincial Fund to a pension fund under the Transkei Government. Now, according to the hon . the Minister of the Interior there are no available moneys held in the fund on behalf
has tied his hands in bringing this Bill in the form in which it is . I very much welcome the provision whereby , instead of having annuities , they may be paid out gratuities , so enabling a man to get a lump sum with which he can do something. I am remembering at the present moment the capricious transfer of employees from one district to another so that , whilst an individual is in the service he is not able
of any specific teacher or group of teachers , the argument being that the moneys contributed by those teachers have been absorbed by benefits paid to those who qualified for pension payments . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: So
to establish his own home . If he gets a lump gratuity he is then able to build himself a home when he retires , and that we welcome very much . I do not like what the hon . the Minister of the Interior has done
you learn. MR. GUZANA: So we learn . One gets the impression that the Republican Government was carrying a baby all the time and would have been under an obligation to
in anticipating the committee stage of the Bill by itemizing its clauses during the second reading . (Laughter)
pay out pensions to teachers although there was no money standing to their credit in
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He disarming you. is
the provincial fund . Therefore the Republican Government would have to make a grant to the provincial pension fund out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund to make this continue . Now , one wants to know
MR. GUZANA: Yes , he is anticipating our amendments in the committee stage . I must warn him. however, that we shall still
whether the Republican Government , together with the Provincial Administration , are
require very meticulous motivation , subclause by sub- clause , because this Bill is a very important one . On page 4 , when you speak to sub- clause (ii) you do indicate that a person who has been transferred
evading their liability to those teachers just because there happens to be a Transkei civil service or a Transkei Government . If in ten years ' time a teacher would have
235.
to the Transkei Govemment may well be at a disadvantage because his salary may be less than the salary which would have been paid to him if he had remained with the Republican Goverment. Now, that may happen because of financial stringency but I must point out that no person should feel aggrieved financially because he is serving the Transkei Government, and that the Government must always make sure that the salaries of its employees do not lag behind those of the Republican civil servant. In fact , to give this Goverment an open tip, you would do well to popularize your separate development by offering higher salaries .
that selling separate development? (Laughter)
MR . GUZANA: But you have never tumbled to that fact and therefore you make yourselves vulnerable to the Opposition every time . However, I am not here to teach you what you ought to do, but to tell you how often you fail to do it. (Laughter) However that may be I hope the principle of maintaining parity between the salary scales of the Transkei and those of the Republic will not be overlooked . In fact, I want to challenge you to give them the salary that is paid to any white official who is holding the same position . I shall see if this will be done when we come here next year. MEMBER :
Diko
MR. GUZANA: Speaking objectively , some of them would be prepared ; others would be prepared but unable to do so . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: How do you overcome that? MR. GUZANA: To overcome that would be by way of providing for a person to take advantage of a clause allowing him to do so, but not necessarily compelling him to do so .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : So it would be optional ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is
GOVERNMENT
Do you think they would be prepared to pay arrear contributions dating to 1956?
ran
away from your party because he said you don't believe in that. MR. GUZANA: I have said it so often that his ears are drumming with it. Now, there are those teachers who joined the profession under Bantu Education and who did not contribute to any pension fund . You refer to this on page 6 , sub- clause (ii) . Now , you have indicated that you have fixed the date on which the pension scheme begins as the 1st April, 1966. One of your reasons given for fixing this date only yesterday instead of yester-year , or when that teacher began teaching under Bantu Education , is that there will be over 2,000 teachers involved . Now are those teachers to blame? They would have contributed to a pension scheme if there had been on e under the Department of Bantu Education and it is my view that many of these teachers would like to pre-date their contributions to the date when they started teaching under the Department of Bantu Education . Now, you say that such a scheme would be most exorbitant , if not prohibitive , in cost. We would like to know what is being described as exorbitant and what are the prohibitive costs , because if a teacher had
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Like the teachers who are over 40? MR. GUZANA: Yes, like the teachers. over 40. I am convinced , Sir, that such an enabling clause would be most welcome amongst the teachers . I mention this , as we are still in the second reading of this Bill , for you to look into this matter with your Department and see whether or not it is possible to do so. I can think of a man who has served ten years as a teacher contributing for at least half those years, by way of meeting him half-way , since he has been placed in a situation not of his own creation. That is just something I mention by the way, but the idea really is to have a clause enabling a person to do so if he should be in a financial position to take advantage of such a provision in the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : If perhaps you accept the present Bill, I might see fit to amend. MR. GUZANA: The Opposition never bargains with the Government on a thing like this. (Laughter) When the hon. Minister comes before the House with a bill, that is the only opportunity available to the Opposition to press its point. We cannot force you to bring an amending bill before this House because you can just sit back and do nothing about it. I have made an observation on this point and hope that the Department concerned will look into the matter and probably give us something which will be a reason why it is not done, but I think you will find that the general body of teachers will welcome such provision. Sir, as I said, I do not want to open my mouth too wide and I hope I have not made myself vulnerable at any stage. Up to now these are the only comments we can make on the bill. Thank you , Mr. Chaiman,
joined the profession in 1956 he would have been contributing to a pension fund from that date for eleven years to date.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I hope today there will be very few people who would like to open their mouths wide , and that most of the members of this House will not
THE INTERIOR :
open their mouths at all. (Laughter) This is
THE MINISTER
OF
236 .
tion that the Bill be read a second time.
a very lofty, technical and highly involved Bill . Consequently , like the hon . the Leader of the Opposition , I wish and hope I will open my mouth half as much as he has done. I have had to stand up because this Bill affects in the main persons in the employ of the Department of which I am Minister . I can promise the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that his constructive remarks with regard to that unfortunate section
Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that tomorrow I will be away on official duties , I propose that the committee stage should take place on Wednesday, 24th May, and, Mr. Chairman , I propose 7 that we adjourn .
of employees of the Department of Education will be considered seriously, if not favourably. OPPOSITION
MEMBERS:
Hear,
THE second .
hear .
OF
MINISTER
EDUCATION :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The fact that these officials did not contribute
Agreed to .
to the pension fund after 1955 has never been a matter of their own making and I do submit that they deserve serious consideration . Now with regard to the point raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the pension contributions of teachers who contributed to the provincial pension fund before Bantu education , it would appear that these unfortunate officials , amongst whom is my friend the Leader of the Opposition ...
The Assembly adjourned.
I
AFTERNOON SESSION . The
Assembly resumed
at 2.15 p.m.
MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman , may I know whether the speech of the hon . the Minister of the Interior on this pension scheme which is so important could not be made available to members? I note that you are passing on to another item and I was hoping this speech would be made available.
MR . GUZANA : And yourself. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And
THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon . Minister made a mistake this morning by
my self (Laughter) ... put their money in a leaking bag. The position at present is that the Provincial Administration is not prepared to part with its money, if it is still there . I think clause 2 ( 1) is intended to
handing copies to some people here . THE MINISTER was a favour.
circumvent the position. A person who contributed to the provincial pension fund before 1955 can elect to cease contributing to that fund and contribute to the Transkei Government Service pension fund, and when he is pensioned off...
OF
EDUCATION :
It
THE CHAIRMAN : We cannot have favours here . It was a mistake because there is a special time for handing out these papers. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR :
MR. L.A. LUWACA: He will lose it.
It was just to facilitate matters , Mr. Chairman , that I ....
EDUCATION: OF THE MINISTER Listen! He won't lose it. All the benefits that accrued to him at the date when he ceased to contribute will accrue to him at
THE CHAIRMAN : That was wrong, hon. Minister, because they are worrying me now. You have put me in a difficulty because they all want it now.
the date when he is pensioned off. I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will agree that that is the intention of that sub-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don't think we understand the truth of the position, Mr. Chairman . If at all I happen to pass anything of mine to a member without referring it to this House I can do so at any time. A private deal cannot be made an order of this House . This was a private deal between the hon. Minister of the Interior and the members to whom he handed these papers , and as a result he has had to take them back again , which is never done .
section ( 1) of clause 2. I only wanted to make those remarks and I had already intimated I was not going to open my mouth wide . MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Where will it come from? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The hon. member from Maluti would like to know where the money will come from when that official retires. It will come in the ordinary course of events from the Consolidated
THE
Revenue Fund, if at all there is a short-
CHAIRMAN :
Everybody
is
in-
terested in that policy speech and directly the Minister dishes his policy speech to a couple of members here everybody will want it.
fall in the Cape pension fund. =1 THE CHAIRMAN : I shall put the ques-
237.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It not a policy speech, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is where the mistake was . It is a second
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I crave your indulgence to have this matter postponed to tomorrow at 2.15, when the hon . the Chief Minister will be here .
reading speech and it is never handed out to all the members of the House .
THE CHAIRMAN : Very well , thank you.
was
PAYMENT OF SUM REPRESENTING INDIRECT TAXATION INTO TRANSKEI REVENUE FUND.
THE CHAIRMAN: That was a mistake . The hon. Minister should apologise . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Should I withdraw the transaction?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , this motion merely seeks that the Government of the Transkei
THE CHAIRMAN: You must apologise that you made a mistake because they are worrying me now. I am sorry, hon . member , you may not have these copies today.
should get an increment from the Republican Government for the Transkei Revenue Fund. It reads as follows : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republic an Government for the payment into the Transkei Revenue Fund from the Consolidated Revenue Fund in terms of paragraph ( c) of section 52 ( 1) of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963, of a sum not less than the amount paid by the Transkei citizens and residents in indirect taxation in addition to the present 99 grant. Mr. Chairman , possibly some people do not know what is meant by indirect taxation. Indirect taxation is an amount of money that is paid on certain commodities used by people in the Republic . According to the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, sub- section 52 ( 1) , the Republican Government decided they would not pay into the Transkei Revenue Fund anything more than they had paid to it in 1963. The money accruing to the Transkei Revenue Fund comes from the direct taxes paid by the people of the Transkei , which amount to R3,500,000 . That amount is just about
CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS OF TRANSKEIANS IN CISKEI. MR.
L.T. MAZWI;
Mr.
Chairman
and
hon. members , in the first place I have a slight amendment to make before moving this motion and that is to delete the word Mdantsane and to substitute therefor the words "African townships in the Ciskei" . Before going further I would at this juncture ask that the hon . the Leader of the Opposition should be allowed to make some comments , in view of certain changes in the situation , which will make the matter clear.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this may be unusual but I think it will assist you , Sir . We have been that the Government considers advised accepting this motion; that in the meantime representations have been made to Pretoria to obtain information regarding this matter which is raised by this motion; and that the hon. the Minister of the Interior will make a statement to this House as soon as he has obtained that infomation . The idea there-
one-fifth of the money paid into the Transkei Revenue Fund. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Which amount is the one-fifth?
fore , Sir, was for the motion to be approved by this House without discussion and that when the hon , the Minister of the Interior makes his statement on this issue then
CHIEF NDAMASE : The three and a half million. Over and above that the Government
discussion can follow. In doing it this way, Sir, we shall be saving your time in reserving any discussion to the date when the hon. Minister makes his statement .
promised they would give a grant which would not exceed the total expenditure of the year 1963 in the Transkei and there would be a further sum in addition to that
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , I have nothing more to add to what the hon . the Leader of the Opposition has said, except that the motion can stand as it is until such time as I am ready to give this House a report.
amount. In the financial year 1964/1965 this amount totalled R13 million . Also , in the year 1965 1966 it amounted to R13 million , and for the year 1966/67 it was R10,466,000. For the Current financial ye ar it is R 10,8 10,000 . This year's revenue in the Transkei is estimated at R18 million and this rise is due to the fact that there has
Agreed to .
always been a surpuls which is carried over to the following year, because certain services which should have been carried out
THE CHAIRMAN: We should now take item 8 on the order paper, the second reading of the Transkeian Government Service Amendment Bill, but owing to the absence of the hon. the Chief Minister , I think we shall have to deal with this matter either
during the year have not been completed . This surplus has been increasing until now it is in the neighbourhood of R5 million. If you take note , you will find that the money the Government has promised us since 1963
tomorrow or on Wednesday.
238.
has gradually been decreased. Because of the accumulation of surpluses it is now in the vicinity of R8 million . The population and the demands of the people are gradually increasing every year and the Revenue Fund should likewise be increased in proportion to the demands of the people for various services. Who are the right people to ask the Government to increase this revenue
CHIEF NDAMASE : The buying power of the people of the Transkei amounts to R240 million . If you calculate indirect tax $ to to R12 million. I on that amount it comes refer the hon . the Minister of Education to the excise duty in the Republic . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , but I want to know how you calculate indirect taxation from the commodities .
in proportion to the increasing demands of the Transkei? I appeal to the Government to request the Republican Government to pay over to the Transkei all indirect taxation accruing to the Transkei . For the financial 1964 1965 the amount of indirect year
CHIEF NDAMASE: I put it at 5 per some commodities cent, but I know there are some on which they charge 20 per cent or even more . If the R12 million were added to the Transkei Revenue Fund the fund would be increased to R26 million - that is , the amount which we should be granted by the Republican Government. You will note that it is almost double what we get at present. I do not think there will be any difficulty in this because in his speech the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development made a statement to the effect that he would give self-government to the Ovam bo tribe and that he was prepared to give them as much as R30 million . If I am not mis-
taxation in the Republic was estimated at over R28 million . In view of the fact that the population of the Transkei is approximately one-fifth of the total population of the Republic of South Africa, we ought to receive one-fifth of that R28 million. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where do you get your figures? CHIEF NDAMASE : This amount of R28 million appeared in the statement of Mr. E.J. van der Merwe .
taken, the population of Ovamboland smaller than that of the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not querying that. I am asking about your population figures .
is
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is it?
CHIEF NDAMASE: If I am not mistaken the Bantu population of the Republic is about ten million and the population of the Transkei is about 14 million.
CHIEF
NDAMASE :
I
don't
think it
exceeds 300,000 people . I am giving these figures to the hon. the Minister of Education , who does not seem to know. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Is the R28 million indirect tax from the African
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You didn't know either, you were told by Mr. Diko.
people of the Republic? CHIEF NDAMASE: I thought I mentioned that the R28 million was the indirect tax from the African people of the Republic. Basing my calculation on the population of the Transkei it would appear that indirect taxation would bring in R5 million or a little more . If this indirect tax were handed over to the Transkei then the Transkei
CHIEF NDAMASE : The population of the Transkei is greater than that of Ovamboland . It is possible that the population of the Transkei is three or four times that of Ovambos . One wonders why the Ovambos should get so high a figure , where as we who do not even get indirect taxation are given a much lower grant. It is not the first time this has been suggested to the Government. South West Africa has a legislative council and customs and excise duties
revenue would be increased by R5 million . The buying power of the Bantu people of the Republic amounts to R1,200 million and calculating on the buying power of the residents of the Transkei the amount of indirect taxation ought to be a fifth of that amount.
least to be 5 per cent on each commodity bought by an African.
are collected by the Republican Government and paid over to the account of South West Africa. Why can't that be done in respect of the Transkei ? I will refer the hon . Minister to the Excise Duties Act , No. 91 of 1964, section 104. If we are truly given selfgovernment it will not be the first the Republican Government has to do to the Transkei . In the recent issue of the Daily Dispatch it was stated that R490 million
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Some commodities are not taxable .
would be used for the development of the African territories other than the Transkei . I would like hon . members to note the fact
CHIEF NDAMASE : I understand that.
that we Bantu people are regarded as being poor . It would appear that the Transkei
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , tell us how you calculate it.
Government is not given mineral rights in the Transkei . We are given the land but no mineral rights .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How do you calculate indirect taxation from the buying power?
CHIEF NDAMASE : I calculate it at the
239.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where is that provided? CHIEF
NDAMASE :
In
fact ,
we
taxable commodities . You may find that out of a thousand people who come from the Transkei , about half of those people for instance do not use tobacco. Now , how is the hon. member able to say who should get what amount from , say , tobacco? (Interjections) If you do not understand , just keep quiet before I say what I am going to say about you . Some of the people do not use liquor, for instance . Now, how is the hon. member going to calculate what should accrue to the Transkei , for instance , out of the indirect taxation on liquor? It might have been a different thing, of course , if all the Transkeian citizens were to be found in the Transkei , but those different persons who either use or do not use some of the taxable commodities are scattered all over the Republic.
can
even....(Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where is it provided? You are surmising now. CHIEF NDAMASE : In fact , we have no minerals and as we have no minerals in the Transkei there is no possibility of getting an increase in the revenue of the Transkei . Further, we are not allowed to bring in White capital to develop the Transkei . White capital could be used to start industries which in turn would put money into the Transkei coffers and there by increase the revenues . For how long shall we continue before we have sufficient revenue in the Transkei ? (Interjections)
CHIEF NDAMASE: Are the South West African people in the Republic? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How is the hon. member going to calculate what should accrue to the Transkei? I put a
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. You have five minutes more .
CHIEF NDAMASE: The Chairman says I have only five minutes more and I still have much to say under this motion . I still want to show how the Bantu people are further indirectly taxed on a number of things .
question to him when , for instance , he gave us the figure of R28 million as being indirect taxation on the Africans in the Republic . (Interjections) Now , he based his calculation on the total population of the Transkei , but do the millions of people in the Transkei all drink liquor, for instance?
MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman , I beg to second the motion.
CHIEF NDAMASE: That is your reason-
ing. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , before I discuss or reply to the remarks of the hon .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do the millions of people who are in the Transkei all smoke , for instance ? I am saying this because the calculation which he gave
member for Nyanda on this very unintelligible motion I would like to move the following amendment:
on the R28 million was made by dividing 28 by the total population of the Transkei .
That all the words after the word "should" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : " convey its gratitude to Republic an Government for making the
CHIEF NDAMASE : No, by five , because the Transkei population is one-fifth of the Republic an Bantu population.
substantial annual grants from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the Transkeian Revenue Fund ."
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , so you divided that by the total population of the Transkei , which is one-fifth. Now, if you do not know what you are calculating , keep quiet. You say the population of the Transkei is one -fifth of the Republic and you divide R28 million by 5.
Hon. members , if this motion had been put in another way, it might have cast a different complexion on the issue altogether. MR . DIKO : Amend it another way then .
CHIEF NDAMASE: That is right.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The hon. member seeks to have moneys from indirect taxation handed over to the Transkeian Government . I was all the time , as I
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, making an estimation of one-fifth (which is the one-fifth of the total population of the Republic) are all liable because they all partake of these commodities ? (Interjections) I am showing you that in this one-fifth there are many and many people who do not partake of taxable commodities . (Interjections)
sat here listening very carefully to the hon . member, trying to find out how he would get over the difficulties that arise once one speaks of indirect taxation . Indirect taxation accrues from various and different commodities which are used in the country. Some commodities used in the country are not taxable commodities . Some of the people in the country do not use some of the
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
240.
more money for the Transkei . That is how you are going to put it and you will say that the Government refused the motion . (Interjections)
MR. K.G. NOTA: Even in the 28 million there are people who do not.
THE
MINISTER OF
EDUCATION:
It
is always common for people who do not understand to start yelling and yelping .
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Why didn't you amend it accordingly?
MR. NOTA: In the 28 million there are people who do not use those commodities .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If you put a proper motion we shall certainly see to it that that motion is put into practice , but not something you know cannot be done .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , that's right, and how are you going to separate those people? CHIEF NDAMASE: How do they sepa-
OF POSITION
rate the people of South West Africa? MR. NOTA: Accept the principle .
You
should
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I asked him several times how he came to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I said it would have been better if you had asked for a much bigger grant than to ask for this . (Interjections) I said at the beginning it would have been better if you had phrased your motion in a different way .
these figures. OPPOSITION MEMBER: He wanted you to guess . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , we don't want to go to the Republic an Government with guesswork.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Why didn't you say that?
MR . RAJUILI: You say it would be a lot of work to separate the population of the Transkei from the Republic, but is that not the policy of separate development, to separate them?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , we always come along and put your motions into proper form and we are not going to take foolish and unintelligible motions to the Republic of South Africa and appear fools.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not prepared to reply to puerile que stions , especially when a man sits down and dozes and when he wakes up he thinks of asking a foolish question. If you separate
MR. C. DIKO : When are you going to ask the Republican Government for more money? You have been in power for four years and have done nothing .
the people of the Transkei from the rest of the Republic that is not separate development, you know. Separate development is that which separates Africans from the Whites, not from the other Africans . So you see, my friend , how boyish your question was.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is a matter for the Government and not for you. We have five years to go when you have twenty years before you will get into power. MR . DIKO : What do you do for the people of the Transkei ?
MR. GUZANA: Just talk to the motion . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am replying to the question .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We do everything for the people of the Transkei . MR . DIKO : When are you more money for the Transkei ?
MEMBER:
have put it in the way it should be.
MR. motion.
asking for
GUZANA: No , just stick to the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Hon . members , I have always submitted that that side of the House is not very serious in their requests . They always come here with numerous motions, the intention being
because it was a foolish question. MR. GUZANA: You have not said anything about the motion. You are just wallowing around.
nothing other than to gain cheap popularity. Even now they bring this very foolish
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have told you the Transkei is in the hands of a responsible Government, which Government will communicate at all times with the Republican Government with reasonable and intelligible requests . In fact, one finds that this motion is even a misdirection
motion which they know pretty well if we take it to the Republic an Government it would certainly be refused , because we would be given the difficult task of presenting a proper argument of how to separate the people of the Transkei from the rest of the Republic in regard to the tax-paying population . All you want there after is to go to the people and say you asked for
on the part of the hon . member across the as of par ),, erm floor . The motion says " in graph (c) of section 52 ( 1)". There is (d)
241 .
about those who do the same with the Leader of the Opposition?
too , which he did not mention . (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, hon. members , these are the moneys that accrue to the Transkei under that section 52 (1) (c) (i) and ( ii ) and also (d).... CHIEF
NDAMASE :
I
mentioned
MR. DIKO : They are the same. (Laughter) I will start from the bottom of the ladder and I will ask Mahatma Ghandi to listen very well.
(d) .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : ... and at the present moment the moneys that are paid by the Republican Government should be appreciated. If we feel we need more I submit we cannot say that the moneys that accrue from indirect taxation should come to the Transkei . moneys that are that section 52 increased. That and reasonable .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who is that? MR. DIKO: The Minister in the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Roads and Works. Now , there are poor Africans working in those Departments , and while it is said in this House that the
We can only say that the payable to us in terms of ( 1) ( c ) and (d) should be would be more intelligible
minimum wage per day is 50 cents , I want to tell this House that in some cases it is 30 cents.
CHIEF NDAMASE: Do you reckon they would be increased by the Republic an Government?
GOVERNMENT that?
MEMBERS:
Where
is
MR . DIKO : I will ask you either this afternoon or tomorrow to visit Tabankulu
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We say you should have said that in your motion. You are moving a motion , not me . You are the mover of the motion and instead
where you will find a gang of ten men working there and they are paid 30 cents a day. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Where ?
of moving your foolish motion you should have moved in respect of section 52 ( c) and (d). (Interjections) In short , hon. members , I submit that this House should accept the amendment.
MR. DIKO: Tabankulu district, I am saying. Now today they are paid 30 cents a day · today. Now here is the crux of the argument: How on earth do you expect a man, when Saturdays and Sundays and holidays are not counted in that 30 cents ....
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR . C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am not a man of industry , nor a business man, so I am not going to worry
THE MINISTER OF That is relief work.
you about details of figures . What I want to do is to show you facts . Now the important thing is that every body in the Transkei is underpaid, except those hon. members in the Government party . Now for the last three years , and this is the fourth year , we have been looking forward to this Government making representations to the Republic an Government that the moneys allotted to the Transkei are not enough , so it is immaterial how the motion has been presented . The
MR. DIKO: It is not relief work. (Interjections) All right, let me bow down to your contention. Now, 50 cents a day , take out Saturdays , take out Sundays , take out
AGRICULTURE:
holidays , how do you expect a man out of that 50 cents a day to educate his children , to clothe his children, to pay for them when there is a need to go to the doctor? (Interjections) I am trying to show you how poor the Transkei is . It is the duty of the Ministers to see that the African is catered for in the Transkei . So the man at the bottom of the ladder cannot afford to clothe, feed , educate his children ; so what does a responsible Government in a state which is growing to be independent one day....
underlying point is that we are underpaid. We therefore ask this Government to make representations to that effect to the Republican Government and I would like the Government supporters, whether they have been voting robots or honourable men who have been elected by their people to come and represent them in this House , to think and think seriously . What I mean is that those who are not voting robots must now think. I will start from the botom of the ladder.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is that how you preach? MR . DIKO: So you must see that the rank and file is ཛཱ ། underpaid and you are ། requested as a Government aspiring to be a Government of tomorrow to look into the needs of the citizens of the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who are voting robots ?
(Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . Hon . members , please behave yourselves . I will not allow this business .
MR . DIKO : Any body who votes because he sees the hon . the Chief Minister lift up his hand. 3 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What
MR. DIKO: In 1964 I quoted to you the words of a wise man and the starter of this
242.
Bantustan . He said : " I am prepared to give to the idea of Bantustan R20 million and
equal work. So hon. members must concentrate on the importance of giving indirect taxation to the Transkei so that we can increase the emoluments of everybody . Just now, when you were raising the salaries of the civil servants in the Transkei you forgot to raise the salaries of headmen and chiefs . Why? Because there is no money .
even more ." So what is surprising, after that enunciation of the man who gave us the Bantustans concept, is that the Government of the Transkei has been silent ever since , not even asking for anything . We want you to pay the people working for the departments in the Transkei . We want to show you that it is not the Republican Government that is refusing. I will give you some instances of your follies . You want to know what you are going to do with this money . In your revision of the scales for members of this House you decided to give them R82 . The salaries of members were increased from R64 to R82. When we work
GOVERNMENT them before.
MEMBER:
We
raised
that out in percentages you find that the member of the T.L.A. is paid 23 per cent of the Ministers ' salary . Now you go to the
Compare a quarter and a quarter or a month and a month. Don't get confused .
Republic and find that an ordinary member of the House is paid 40 per cent of the Ministers ' salary . I will go further and I will continually ask you in this House: Why don't you pay members a recess allowance? I am telling you you are afraid to ask for more money and therefore you are not paying the people who should be paid. In every parliamentary procedure there is a recess allowance , so if this is to be a proper parliament you must appeal to the Republican Parliament to increase the grant given to us in the Transkei .
MR. DIKO: The important thing is the basic salary given to a man . Can he be able to survive on what he gets?
MR. DIKO: How can you say you have raised it from R12 a quarter to R6 a month? Have you ever raised it? (Interjections) THE
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION:
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The important thing is to make a proper comparison .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. DIKO : So all the chiefs on that side must be very careful not to dismiss this motion before giving it their fullest consideration. We want to feel we have a responsible Government. We want to feel that the Government cares for the interests
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : To pay you for spreading Communism. (Laughter)
of the people. Mr. Chairman , I am not going to speak any further. I think I have given enough fuel .
MR . DIKO: I will go further. The mover of the motion sees how much you are in difficulty in going to the Republican Government. He is trying to show you and wants you to give your serious consideration . Why not ask at least for the indirect tax which is being paid by the African in the Transkei ? In his reply the hon. the Minister of Education has failed to show this House that indirect taxes are already given to the Transkei . He says the motion is foolish because indirect taxation in the Transkei is already paid to them, or is it difficult to calculate how much accrues from the African in the Transkei? What is your difficulty?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , having listened carefully to the remarks made by the hon. member, the mover of the motion , and the remarks made by his seconder, the hon. member for Qaukeni , and in associating myself with the remarks made by the hon . the Minister of Education, I move that we adjourn until tomorrow. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. THE CHAIRMAN: No , I think it is out of order.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Carry on with your speech .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I have moved and it was seconded.
MR. DIKO: So the Government side , in refusing this motion , must show clearly whether we are now at the moment being
THE CHAIRMAN: I must wait for the Minister acting for the Chief Minister to move, because otherwise it is out of order.
paid indirect taxes . If we are not paid , the hon. mover is moving that the Government ask for indirect taxation at least to be allotted to the Transkei citizens . (Interjections) It is going to help nobody to continually talk about Communism and Doubt and other people when important issues of bread and butter are at stake . The
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the Chairman is casting a very heavy duty on me because I am not acting for the Chief Minister. The Chief Minister is away and he has left no one in his place because he is only away for a day .
important thing is not whether you think a man is a Communist or a Malanite or anything else , but whether he is paid adequately and whether he gets equal pay for
THE
243 .
CHAIRMAN:
Well ,
if the Chief
Minister is away no one can move in his place , So the members must carry on. MR. B.S. RAJUILI ; But, Mr. Chairman , this is one motion on which the House is agreed upon. Is it not out of order to overrule the House on a motion upon which it is agreed?
THE CHAIRMAN: bers, we adjourn at 5 stick to that . I will not We must have one more
Usually , hon . memo'clock and we must allow you to adjourn. speaker.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : All right, Mr. Chairman, I will be as brief as possible . Mr. Chairman and hon . members , speaking in support of the amendment, which is very plain and straightforward , for the simple reason that it sticks to the procedure that is general in this House , the mover of the original motion did not tell us exactly where our ordinary sources of revenue have failed . As a spent force of the old Bunga, where people just thought of motions , he just wanted to speak to the gallery . He did not quote to us the mandate for this motion. There are so many sources where we can raise funds and they are all enshrined in the Constitution , and in due praise to our • Minister of Finance we each and every year have had a comfortable surplus to carry over to the following year. OP POSITION
MEMBER:
At
the
Communist Party , the People's Freedom Party, who is obsessed with equal pay for equal work, insists that the money must come from indirect taxation , but why stipulate indirect taxation ? Has money got any colour? Every Sunday afternoon he collects tickeys for his black African Church. Does he scrutinize that silver which comes and whether it comes from dagga or what? I am asking because he does not tell us what he is going to do , as far as I know, with these additional funds , if we want them at all in the Transkei. If the House should resolve that the amount we get from the Republic is insufficient the Minister of Finance knows exactly what to do and we have got all sources like the Xhosa Development Corporation and others . Whatever we want to do , if it is in order , we can always exhaust those sources first. Now, Sir , we have not come here to waste time and if we pass resolutions here we pass resolutions that we hope to the best of our ability will be implemented. Now my hon. friend speaks like all those people who are in the United Nations who have no need to invest in loudspeakers because they can loudspeak . (Laughter) But, hon. Chief D.D.P. , can you really tell us what your difficulty is so that we may help you? There is so much that could be done in the Transkei to raise funds . We do not say we must always depend on the Republic for funds .
exCHIEF NDAMASE: direct taxation?
pense of the people . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : When I cornered the dual leader of the People's Party, the Communist Party,
It
Do
you
suggest
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: will depend on just what you want.
asking him exactly what he wanted to do EDUCATION: THE MINISTER OF Direct taxation is there already .
with the extra money that he hoped to get from indirect taxation , like a born Communist, of course , he wants to augment his pay, making unfavourable comparison of his salary with that of the Ministers.
MR . because THE
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We are not speaking of ideologies because now you have failed in the very first instance to tell us what you want.
RAJUILI: Are you a Communist your salary has been raised ? MINISTER
OF
MR . DIKO: Are you refusing to increase salaries and wages?
AGRICULTURE :
He stipulates that this money must be raised from indirect taxation , and indirect taxation from the African population of the Transkei , to the exclusion of other racial groups in the Transkei. CHIEF
NDAMASE:
Read
the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The leader who speaks for himself, saying that his subsidy is too low, spends all his money so that he has nothing left, but if he budgeted for the amount he gets every month from this Chamber, to which he
motion
renders no service , he could come through instead of buying these second-rate cars which, after a hundred miles , need to be repaired (Laughter) which money he extorts from poor people , poorer than those old women in his Back to Africa Church . He was at a loss as to what we were discussing, and then he went on to discuss the
properly. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is that multi-racialism? Why identify African indirect taxation as distinct from any other group? And does it really matter where additional funds come from? MR .
RAJUILI:
Even
THE
MINISTER
OF
from
wages and he day in knows
Russia ?
AGRICULTURE :
My hon . friend, the leader of the pseudo-
is
244 .
of the employees in my Department spoke of people getting 30 cents a Tabankulu . I do not know how he about that because that information
inaccurate.
(Interjections)
I
can only
QUESTION NO. 48. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:-
infer that he refers to relief work people , and those people are very , very thankful to get 30 cents a day . If he knew what an easy life they lead there! They have no "induna" , unless he volunteers to go and pray for them before they eat. (Laughter) They have no stipulated time of work. When they feel they must return home they go. I think he must have heard from an old woman
"Kindly give names and districts of the 22 trading stations sold to Africans" . REPLY: The Trading Stations are : - Hillside No. 2 , Matatiele ; Qweqwe , Umtata; Ntsingisi , Bizana; Travellers Rest, Engcobo; Cacadu , Tabankulu ; Nqumakala, Tsomo; Ulundi, Mount Fletcher ; Mnceba, Tabankulu ; Nxameni , Mount Frere; Mlacu, Bizana; Drakensview, Cala; Izinini , Bizana; Dludlu , Qumbu; Mtshazi , Mount Frere ; Zigudu , Cofimvaba; Gxaku , Mount Fletcher, Tsepisang, Matatiele ; Rolweni , Matatiele ; Lang's Super Market, Engcobo; Willo , Mqanduli ; Mhlahlane , Tsomo; Mpemba , Mount Frere .
who could not pay the increased tickey fee which is now 40 cents . But why do you collect her 30 cents when she is now so poor? And what do you do with it , except to repair your own car? (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I appeal to you now that this matter should be closed and that we adjourn until a suitable time , because it is rather cold and I am afraid there is some other place we would like to visit....
QUESTION NO . 49 . Mr. N. Jafta asked
MR. GUZANA: Yes , your mind is frozen. (Laughter)
the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"How many bags of mealies , kaffir corn and beans were imported into the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....and I will make the offer to take as many of the members as will follow me. (Laughter) Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Now we can
Transkei during the years 1966 and 1967 for human consumption and stock feed?"
adjourn . REPLY: Re Maize Imports:-
The debate was adjourned. January to December 1966 1,698,720 bags January to February 1967 : 379,050 bags
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , before we adjourn I want once more to appeal to the whips because some of the members are making a point of not attending. I shall be obliged to order a roll call, and such a step will penalize those who do not wish to remain in the House .
Re kaffir Corn and Bean imports;There is no record available of what quantities kaffir corn and beans are imported in to the Transkei . It can be assumed that practically all the mealies imported are for human consumption.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 23rd May, 1967.
QUESTION NO . 50 . Ndamas e Chief D.D.P. Minister of Roads and Works : -
TUESDAY, 23RD MAY , 1967. The
Assembly
resumed
at
11
asked
the
"(a) Is there adequate staff to occupy all the residential buildings at the Tsolo College of Agriculture and Chiefs College?
a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were , after amendment, taken as read and confimed .
(b) If not, are the vacant buildings unoccupied? (c) If occupied ,
who occupy them?
QUESTIONS . (d) If occupied, to what government between Transkei and Republic do these employees belong?"
QUESTION NO . 47 . Mr. H.H. Justice:-
Zibi
asked the Minister of
REPLY : (a) Not at present as some vacant posts are in the course of being filled.
"What are the pre-requisites required of an applicant for a liquor licence in the Municipal or V.M. B. Are as and also in the Native administrative areas in the Transkei ?"
(b) At the moment some are unoccupied.
REPLY: The honourable member is referred to Proclamations Nos . 333 of 1949 and R. 177 of 1962 which lay down all the requirements
(c) Tsolo College of Agriculture Mr. Engelbrecht, Mr. Wood , Mr. Kok, Mr. Mr. Brickhill, Filani , Mr. Lesuthu , Mr. Ntloko , Mr. Mntonintshi , Mr. Kumalo , Mr. Mbobo, Mr. Yako.
to be complied with in connection with applications for liquor licences or special authorities .
245.
College for Headmen
Sons Mr.
of Chiefs Rossouw,
and Mr.
Kruger , Mr. Boti , Mr. Pupuma, Mr. Dontsa .
Mount Fletcher District: Z. Masentse , E. Ndaba, R. Klopper, T. Hlomela , P. Mabaleka , Buses. and Railway
(d) Tsolo College of Agriculture 4 Republican Government, 7 Transkeian Government.
(c) & (d) I do not know where Mausphas is , but assuming that the honourable member refers
College for the Sons of Chiefs and Headmen - 2 Republican Government, 3 Transkeian Government.
to the whole of G.R. 69 ( i.e. Government Road No. 69) , the length of which is miles , approximately 20 then the cost of construction
QUESTION NO. 51 . Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Roads and Works :roads , government the "(a) Name
at R4,000 per mile -R80,000. Bridges to be built en route - R10,000 Total - R90,000
mentioning the start and terminus in the Maluti Region in respect of ( a) Matatiele and (b) Mt. Fletcher.
It is planned to move the Buffalo Nek construction unit to G.R. 69 as soon as it completes its present project as far as the Emboland Amanzimny ama in branch-off
(b) (i) Are there public operating buses roads?
or private on these
Region. A bridge construction unit is already in Matatiele district , and is shortly moving across to G.R. 69 to build bridges .
(ii) If so , who own those buses?
(e) (i) The
(c ) Why is the road running through Drift-Mapfontein- Queens Donald
honour able
member
is
probably referring to G.R. 74 and G.R. 77 and possibly also
Mercy to Mausphas not made of gravel inspite of repeated requests since it is the main artery serving the northern portion of the people in that area?
part of G.R. 415. The mileage of these roads adds up to approximately 49 miles . At the same rate , roughly of R4,000 per mile , this would amount to approximately R200,000. road Makhake via to (ii) The Zincuka This road constitutes part of G.R. 84 and all of G.R. 81. The cost for a distance of
(d) How much would it cost to build it properly as against its present shocking condition where it is covered by soft soil or earth which is muddy , sticky and slippery during slightly wet weather?
8 miles at R4,000 is R32,000.
(f) The average cost of maintaining Government roads in the Maluti Region is R41,450 per annum .
(e) (i) The same question is asked of the roads from the MatatieleMt. Fletcher road via Far View Seqhobong ThabachitjaQhobosheaneng Paballongand Makhake . Zincuka to (ii) via
Figures are kept only in respect of the whole region which means the districts of Matatiele and Mt. Fletcher inclusive .
QUESTION NO . 52. Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) How many dipping tanks are there in the Maluti Region in respect of-
( f) What has been the average cost of maintaining the government roads in the Matatiele and Mt. Fletcher districts respectively ?" REPLY: (a) (b) Government Roads in Mount Fletcher: 83 , 414, 18 , 76 , 82 , 78, 74, 75 , 80, 77 , 415, 84 (part of) ,, 81 , 416 , 88 , 411. For a description of the roads listed the honourable member is referred to Transkei Government Gazette No. 85 of 1966 .
(i) Matatiele? (ii ) Mount Fletcher district? (iii) Name those in the Matatiele district. (iv) What has been the average number of beasts dipped at each tank mentioned for the year 1966?
(b) (i) Yes . (ii) Matatiele District: Mr. T.J. Brand , N. & E. Fenton, D. & A. Mzozony ana , K. Selai , A.D. Tweedie , J. Jacobs , T.M. Pike , R. Fenton , P.J. Mguni , E.M.P. Mochachane , and Railway Buses.
(b) (i) As a result of a directive by Assembly this Legislative that tribal authorities may determine interval the of dipping in their areas , have any tribal authorities availed themselves of this directive and , if so , which are those
246 .
QUESTION NO. 53. Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Chief Minister and Finance :"Arising from the reply to question No. 2 on the 25th April, 1967 . (a) Since there are the two sureties to make good the R200 of the misappropriated money s ofthe Mo shoe shoe Basotho Tribal Authority, how does the government intend to recover the balance of R708.00 of these misap-
authorities ? (ii) What have been the differing periods in each case ? (iii) Have any tribal authorities been refused on application for such a request? (iv) Which are the tribal authorities refused ?"
REPLY: (a) (i) 41 . (ii) 33 . (iii) and (iv) Names of tanks and number of cattle for each tank on attached Schedule A.
propriated funds in that authority? (b) Has this tribal authority in question any banking account? (c) If so , who are the signatories to the account?
(b) To my knowledge no such directive has been issued by the Legislative Assembly and it could in any case have no value unless Act 13 of 1956 had been amended accordingly .
(d) Has the personnel of that Tribal Authority remained the same or been changed as a result of these misappropriations except for the secretary, if not, why not?
The rest of the question therefore falls away .
(e) Now that the tribal authority secretaries are to be bonded, what is the modus operandi of such bonds?
SCHEDULE A. MATATIELE Name of Tank
No. of Cattle
Simpson Kakas
1360 2797 2089 1506 2817 1496 3095 2130 1857 2302 1686 3435 1457 1757 2518 2203 2054 543 1825 1147 1483
Sigoga Mbizeni Morosi Mkemani Bethesda Madonella Nyanisos Ntebes Ludidis Mzongwanas Masakalas Sibis Mgeni Hanover Harrys Gorge Tiger Valley Nkadi Nuhah Hillside Matima Pontseng
Black Diamond Prospect Nogobo Hopewell Ramohlakoana Nkosana Klein Jonas Mph arane Queens Mercy Nkaus Belfort Tsitas Makomorin Cross Roads Harry Ebdon Etheldale Willeary Glen Alfred
(f) What are the wages of the secretary of the Moshesh Tribal Authority per annum? (g) Who pays him/her and how is the payment done? (h) Are there any officers of the tribal authority who receive some remuneration from the tribal funds? ( i) Are
there
any
allowances
given
on the days of the trial of tribal cases ? If so , who are given the allowances and how much does each receive ? "
REPLY : (a) As
there
is
no other
method of
recovering the R708.00 the amount will have to be written off. (b) Yes .
1747 2041 150 521 540 610 1786 232 1479 3688 2042 2635 1616 1608 1382 1730
and A.B. J.D. Moshesh (c) Chief Sehloho . As Chief J.D. Moshesh has to be away on Ministerial duties , M.N. Moshesh acts as signatory in his stead.
(d) No. No useful purpose would be served by dismissing the other personnel as well . (e) In terms of the bonds furnished by the tribal secretary and every other employee whose duty it is to handle receipts , money s or other any assets of any account of the tribal authority, the account concerned is indemnified in such amount as determine , the magistrate may against any losses through the
930 282 273 69.
247 .
action of such tribal other employee .
(c) The
secretary or
(g) He pays himself, per cheque , out of the tribal authority's funds on the strength of a voucher signed by the head and himself.
produce was R563,257.09.
(ii) The cost of maintaining the forests cannot be given sepasince rately certain costs ly e virtual includ all aspects of forestry work such as maintenance , development and
(i) Councillors of the tribal authority are paid travelling allowances at 3c per mile per councillor , for attending meetings of the tribal authority .
utilization . The following total expenditure under Subhead 5. L: Forest Management during 1965/66 serves merely as an indication -R425 , 168.00.
the Minister
"If for no convincing reason for the delay by whosoever makes a recommendation for placing an applicant who qualifies for old age pension , what way is open to the applicant against unduly prejudiced authority?"
REPLY: The question is not clear. However , in event of any problems or delays being experienced , enquiries should be addressed to the magistrate of the district concerned .
QUESTION NO. 55. Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) How many bags have been imported into the Transkei in 1966
QUESTION NO. 56. Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Education:the abolition of school "(a) Since boards whose work was taken over by other bodies or school committees , (i) Who appoints teachers in the primary schools? (ii) Who appoints teachers and principals in the second ary Transkei? the in schools (b) (i) What is the modus operandi and keeping of collecting secondary school funds in the Transkei? (ii ) Who audits the books of the tribal secondary schools and those of the other secondary and high schools as well as those of the teacher training schools ? (iii) To whom do the tribal second-
in respect of the following crops? (i) mealies , ( ii) Wheat , (iii ) corn (iv) pockets of potatoes . and (b) How much meat has been imported into the Transkei in 1966?
(c) What
was
the
can un-
(d) (i) Details of income for the calendar year 1966 are not available . The total revenue for the financial year 1965/66 from sales of timber and forest
18 (h) The head gets a bonus of R20 per month .
asked
information
fortunately not be supplied at this stage as all the relevant documents are with the auditors at present.
(f) R132.00 per annum.
QUESTION NO. 54. Rev. B.S. Rajuili of the Interior:-
required
Transkei
Meat
Industry income for the year 1966? (d) (i) What was the income of the Government for Transkei in sold timber of its forests 1966? (ii) What was the cost of maintaining these forests in 1966 ?"
REPLY: (a) (i) 1,698,720. (ii) Nil. (iii) If it is assumed that kaffircorn is referred to the reply is : Nil .
ary schools make report of annual financial year?" REPLY : (a) (i) The Department of Education in consultation with the Regional Authorities concerned . (ii) The Department of Education . on my approval . (b) (i) (ii) and (iii) - The hon. member is referred to the regulations published under Government Notice No. 20 dated 26th March, 1965. It is also pointed out that there are no tribal secondary schools controlled by this
(iv) It was not possible to obtain the required information.
department.
(b) I regret that I cannot reply to this question because the work it would entail to gather all the necessary information would be out of propor-
MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chaiman , arising out of the reply of the hon . Minister , what are the functions of the school committees
tion to the importance of the question; if it would be at all possible to obtain it.
then under the circumstances , in so far as the appointment of teachers is concerned?
248 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is to consult with the regional authorities.
the Interior: "(a) How many labour requisitions were allocated to each of the following during Magisterial districts the
MR . K.M. GUZANA : And where there is no regional authority?
period 1st October , 1966 to 30th April , 1967 : - Butterworth , Nqamakwe and Tsomo?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is no area without a regional authority.
(b) Of the 54,794 work seekers registered during 1966 how many are from each of the abovementioned magisterial districts?
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply to ( a) (ii) , do I take it that the reply implies that the Education Department itself and the hon . Minister concerned have therefore substituted the functions of the abolished advisory school boards ?
(c) Of those who registered , how many were actually recruited from each of these districts?"
M. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The REPLY : position has been to revert the sy stem to the old Cape education system where the Department used to employ the Teachers . You will remember that the schools were then under managers . They used to recommend to the Department the appointment of teachers .
MR . RAJUILI : While I am grateful for this explanation , Mr. Chairman , my question is : Has the Department itself and the Minister taken over the duties of school boards? A simple question . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : think I have answered sufficiently .
(a) Butterworth Nqamakwe Tsomo (b) Butterworth Nqamakwe Tsomo
-
76 38 50 - 1772 -- 1905 - 2047
(c) Butterworth - 1441 Nqamakwe ― 1163 Tsomo - 1362 QUESTION NO . 59. Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
I
"(a) (i) How many natural forests Department with Fore st beacons in the Tsomo district?
QUESTION NO. 57 . Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Chief Minister:"Are officers (Europeans and African) of the Information Department allowed to cnavass for the T.N.I. P. candidates in the elections and if not, what should be done to bring their alleged activities to an end?"
(ii) What are their names?
(b) (i) In which of the above named forests are people allowed to for dry fire-wood collect their own use ? If not, why not? (ii) Why are cattle not allowed to graze in these forests since the grass in these is in danger of catching fire , when dry, and damages the forests?
REPLY: Officers of the Department of Information are , as civil servants of the Republican Government, not allowed to canvass for any political party in their official capacities . As the information officials are not attached to the Transkei Government any complaints against their alleged activities should be directed to the head of that De-
(c) In
which
forests in the Tsomo
district total prohibition of private entry is declared ?
partment .
(d) (i) How many applications from Transkeian citizens for permission to fell trees in these forests for the purpose of
MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that the Ministers themselves are aware of these activities ....
obtaining timber for wagonmaking, house roofing, fencing poles , etc. have been received by your Department? (ii) If there are any, how many have been approved , and how many were refused ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Who told you that? MR. ZIBI: He is saying it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not aware . MR. ZIBI : As a matter of fact they are already in the field for the elections next year , so don't blame us . We now know what to do .
QUESTION NO. 58 . Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of
( iii) If they were all refused , why were they refused ?" REPLY: (a) (i) 32 . Winterhoek , (ii) Tsojana , Thompson's Bush, Assegaibos , Mbulu , Sibonda , Government Forest, Ngcuka , Mbaxa, Nzekeni , Elide , Kalana , Dingezweni ,
249.
Martin's Xaka ,
who is also a post agent signs for and collects registered parcels or letters from the post office , is he not legally bound to compensate the addressees if such items should get lost whilst still in
Bush , Mame's Kloof, Nogumbe , Enkawu ,
Mgqoloma , Matawana , August's Bush , Elikulu, Elebanzi , Elide , Jantjies, Amatola, Amadoda , Mlenze-LobisiNgxan gxasi , Moto, Xako , Nokulu kulutwana and Maqula . (b) (i) Theza is allowed in all the se Winterhoek, forests except Nzekeni , Kolana , Dingezweni , Bush , Amadod a , Martin's Amatola and Tsojana which are closed to protect the regeneration. (ii) Because tramping and grazing by cattle prevents young trees from establishing themselves . (c) Nil.
his possession ? If not, why not? (b) If Yes , would burglary be regarded as extenuating circumstances?"
REPLY : The
and
distribution
of
"(a) Yes , if it can be proved that such loss occurred as a result of negligence on the part of the agent. All such claims , are however, dealt with by the PostmasterGeneral.
(d) (i) Nill. (ii) Falls away . (iii) Falls away . MR. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply I will direct a question with respect to the hon . the Minister of Forestry. Why are the people placed under arrest when they have been allowed to collect firewood in these forests?
(b) Provided all reasonable precautions had been taken by the agent, the Post Office would compensate senders or addressees of insured or registered items which had been lost as a result of a burglary .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, this is the first time my attention has been drawn to the fact that people are arrested in respect of the forests from which they are allowed to collect firewood. I think the hon . member , as a responsible member of Parliament , has
It should , however , be mentioned that bank notes or coins in excess of R10 may not be enclosed in a registered letter . The maximum amount of compensation would , therefore , be R10, irrespective of the amount lost. Should an agent not have taken the necessary precautions , the Postmaster-General would recover the losses from him."
duty in this respect and that is to expose this irregularity to those in authority . I have no doubt the complaint or irregularity will be considered by them . MR. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, I hope you will not be tired by my constant que stioning. What I want to know is whether he has denied that there are requests for people to collect fire wood in these forests . Since the hon. Minister himself made it
QUESTION NO . 61. Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) (i) Are White traders in the rural areas exempt from registering their employees with their local labour bureaux? If so, why (ii) If not, what steps are taken to ensure that all employers comply with the regulations?
publicly known when he was in the Tsomo area that people should be allowed to collect firewood , don't you think he ought to give instructions to the people through the local magistrate , because the people are afraid of being arrested? You should inform the magistrate by circular that the people are allowed to collect firewood ,
being no active Wage (b) There Determination Board in the Trans-
especially those reserved trees , so that they can do the work they want to do with
kei , what is your Department doing to ensure that the interests and welfare of non-government employees safeguarded are as regarding their conditions of employment and wages ?"
those trees , just like the person who is selling walking-sticks in front of the cafe here. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I appreciate your remarks , hon . member.
REPLY : (a) (i) Yes. (ii) Falls away.
QUESTION NO. 60. Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of the Interior:-
"(a) Where
acceptance
registered parcels or letters from the post office is not a function or the responsibility of the Department of the Interior. The postal authorities have , however , been contacted and they have replied as follows : -
I may mention that traders in the rural are as are required
a trader in the rural area
250.
to register their employees with the DISTRICT labour bureaux and not the Local labour bureaux . My Department has had no indication that the regulations in this respect have not been complied with. (b) Complaints regarding wages conditions of employment administratively investigated my Department.
and are by
QUESTION NO. 62. Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:are White owned trading "(a) Why stations left in our grazing camps in the betterment or rehabilitated areas?
Justice , does it mean that this House cannot obtain information about conditions in the prisons , as sought by this question ? Is not the Department of the Interior in a position to seek information in all those departments which are as yet not under the management of the Transkei Government? I believe this is a matter in which the Transkei generally should be very much interested . THE
MINISTER
OF
AGRICULTURE :
Mr. Chairman, while I very much sympathise with the questioner in this respect, particularly in view of the fact that he was once an inmate of this place , so no wonder he is intere sted... (Laughter) MR . MDA: Mr. Chairman, cover my question now? THE CHAIRMAN : Please question , hon . Minister.
(b) Have the traders any legal right to impound our stock when they trespass into their places and/or to charge trespass fees from owners concerned?
THE
MINISTER
OF
does
that
answer the
AGRICULTURE :
Yes , I was just explaining the circumstances which made me sympathise with
the event of stock causing any damage to their property , may they claim of compensation damages from the stock owners ?"
him and I will request him to put his question in writing so that I may present it to the hon . the Minister of the Interior when he returns .
( a) The question is ambiguous . In the first place there is no discrimination on the basis of white and non-White trading stations and reasons , secondly for various
QUESTION NO. 64. Mr. P. Mqikela asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"(a) Is the Minister of Roads and Works aware of the fact that the road leading to the amaGcaleka Great Place from Willowvale Butterworth road is untravellable ?
(c) In
REPLY :
mainly economical , it is not practicable to move all trading stations into residential areas . Apart from problems tenure , in regard to
(b) When is this road to be graded and gravelled?
factors such as buildings , roads , and telephones make the costs
(c) Has the Minister or seen the road?"
prohibitive.
(b) and ( c) Yes . In terms of Proclamation No. 70 of 1937 .
REPLY : (a) No, but at present this road is not a government road and therefore
QUESTION NO. 63 . Mr. P. Mqikela asked the Minister of Justice :prisoners died in "(a) How many 1st prison during the period January , 1965 , to 31st March, 1967? (b) What
are
their
names
not the responsibility of my Department, but that of the tribal authority. It is however included in a list of roads recently advertised designation for as government roads and as no objections to the proposal have been received , it will shortly become a government road. (b) It will, after it has become. a government road, receive attention in due course . (c) No.
and dis-
tricts? (c) Where were they buried? (d) Were their relatives their funerals?"
ever travelled
present at QUESTION NO . 65. Ndamase asked the Chief D.D.P. Minister of Roads and Works :"What houses in Umtata used by seconded officials have been extended and renovated atTranskei Government expense? "
REPLY: There are no prisons under the control of the Transkeian Government and I am unable to furnish the required information . MR . C.S. MDA: Mr. Chaiman , arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , on behalf of the Minister of
REPLY : Nil.
251 .
QUESTION NO . 66. Mr. C. Diko asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"(a) Can you name specifically what roads have been gravelled in district except the Tabankulu road from Tabankulu to Cweraland?
certain the cause for such omission; section 28 of the Constitution Act provides , however, for the deletion of the name of a voter from the list under certain circumstances, and it may be that certain names were deleted by virtue of that provision .
(b) If none, can we rightly say Tabankulu is neglected by your Department?
(c) It is expected that there will be a general registration of voters before the next general election , in which case every voter will
(c) Why has the road to Chief Mzauteti Diko's Tribal Headquarters not been attended to for the last
again have to register irrespective of whether or not he has previously done so.
two years as it is now in dongas?" REPLY: (a) The following roads have been gravelled: 19 , 106 , 108 , 109 , 125, 163 and 254. For a description of these roads , the hon. member is referred to the Transkei Official Gazette No. 85 of 1966.
(6) Falls away.
(c) Repair work on road No. Chief Mzaute ti Diko's
108 to Tribal
Headquarters has been carried out and the road is in a fair condition. MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, the word "specifically" wants you to name the roads and not to give us figures. THE CHAIRMAN : Just ask a question , hon . member.
MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Education on behalf of the Minister of the Interior , in connection with ( a) , if I can prove that about 200 people in my own location did not vote and there was no reason for it, would he be in a position therefore to undo the election that has been carried out? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The procedure where there is an alleged irregularity with regard to voting is for the pers on or the persons aggrieved to petition the courts of the country for the setting a side of the results of the election as being null and void ab initio. MR . L.A. LUWACA: Arising from the reply, Mr. Chairman , is there a time limit within which such a petition must be made ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There are certain lazy persons who want people to do their work for them. Consult your electoral laws .
MR. DIKO: So the question is: May the hon. Minister not refer his reply in figures . May he specifically name the roads . And in (c) what does he mean by saying that the road is under repair and is in a fair condition when it has not been repaired for the last two years?
MR. LUWACA: Why don't you say you don't know?
THE man and roads are because
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply, supposing A was registered in 1963 and he does not go for the 1968 registration , what is the position?
MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairhon. members , unfortunately these known to my Department in figures. it would be difficult to know all
the roads and list them by name. Regarding his further question on (c) , I have been informed by officers of my Department, who are constantly looking at the roads , that the road has been repaired .
QUESTION NO . 67 . Mr. C. Diko asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) Why did the voters who voted in 1963 not appear in the voters' lists for the by-elections on April 12 , 1967? (b) What steps are you rectify that mistake ?"
taking to
REPLY: (a) Unless specific cases are mentioned, it is not possible to as-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: know but I am not going to tell you.
I
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is this : We passed a motion in this House for the elections to be conducted according to districts instead of regions . That matter is being handled at the present moment by the Republican Parliament in Cape Town, with a view to amending the Constitution accordingly. Now as soon as that amendment has been effected it will be necessary for the re-registration of voters in the whole of the Transkei because at the present moment the voters are registered according to regions and it will not be possible to ascertain which voters belong to which districts. Now the question of a person who registered in 1963 and who does not re-register is just a question that nobody can help, because registration of voters is purely voluntary . However , it is 252.
(e) When and where is the next Co-
hoped that the different parties in this House will know that it is their duty to make sure that as many supporters as
operative Society to be started?" REPLY : (a) 1,339
possible do register as voters . MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Arising from this ans wer, Mr. Chairman , about how long before the elections will the newly com-
(b) R38,738.60 (c) This has not yet been determined .
piled list of voters be available? (d) The members are not required to repay the loans until the crop has been reaped i.e. in still another Nevertheless month's time. a already favourable response is evident.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It will have to be as long as to comply with the elections , regulations that govern because , as you know, after a certain date there can be no further registration of voters.
(e) No definite reply is possible yet but it would probably be at Qamata before the start of the season.
MR. RAJUILI : What I wanted to get at was when could the voters ' roll be ready .
AFTERNOON SESSION. EdT
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am neither a prophet....
The Assembly resumed THE
CHAIRMAN :
Excuse
me ,
at 2.15 p.m.
hon.
ANNOUNCEMENT. Minister, are you going to answer all these questions? Are they all arising from this reply?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it has been brought to my notice that the hon. the Chief Minister will not be here this afternoon, so I crave your indulgence , Sir , to ask that the second reading of the Government
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am neither a prophet nor a witch-doctor and therefore I am unable to foretell on what
Service Amendment Bill be postponed until tomorrow .
date a matter, which I have no idea when it will begin , will be ready.
Agreed to . QUESTION NO. 68. Mr. C. Diko asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) How many Africans are shareholders in the B.I.C.?
PAYMENT OF SUM REPRESENTING INDIRECT TAXATION INTO TRANSKEI REVENUE FUND.
The debate was resumed.
(b) Can you give the actual names of the shareholders in the B.I.C. ?"
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to express myself in Xhosa to enable the hon . members across the floor to understand what I am
REPLY: (a) None .
saying. (Laughter)
(b) In terms of sub- section (3) of section TEN of Act No. 34 of 1959 (The Bantu Investment Corporation Act) , only the South African Bantu Trust is capable of becoming a shareholder of the B.I.C. QUESTION NO. 69. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Agriculture and Forestry :-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Be honest.
CHIEF
The
aim
of the
kei . The mover wants more money to be brought into this area. It is clear that the hon. members on the Government side do not wish to ask for more - so much so , that the hon. Minister moved a stupid amendment saying that we should appreciate the small amount of money we have been given. The mover of the motion said some thing to the House in connection with indirect taxation .
Minister of
(b) How much money was spent on Society
NDAMASE :
motion is to get more money into the Trans-
"(a) What is the membership of the Fingo Agricultural Co-operative Society to date?
this Co-operative year?
Admit you cannot speak English.
The figures he gave may not be strictly correct but it is a fact that we are trying to suggest a loop-hole for the members of the Government side . I would compare them
last
(c) How much money is to be spent this year?
to pigs , because when you drive a pig in one direction it will always run in the other direction . (Laughter) We are trying to lead them to more wealth in suggesting they should ask and it will be given. This in-
(d) How are the members responding in paying back loans?
253.
direct taxation is taken into account in all other countries . A few years ago I was in America where you will always find three prices on any article you buy . There is the cost price which is not seen by the public , the selling price and a third price which includes the tax on the article . That is done to show every one what the cost and selling prices are and what the tax on that article is . In the Republic we do not see that . It is a well known fact that there is a tax on almost every article we buy , and when one thinks it out it is obvious that there is a tax on almost everything. Articles vary in price each year according to the amount of tax placed on them . We would
ter) What we want in the Transkei is money to have schools erected ; we want roads to be properly constructed ; we want the Government to subsidize the farmers agriculturally . How can these hon . chiefs say that the money is sufficient? I think the chiefs should definitely support this motion .
CHIEF S. MOSHESH: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to support the amendment by the hon . the Minister of Education . I cannot find any reason to persuade this side of the House to accept the motion put forward by the mover. The hon . member who moved this motion speaks about extra taxes which ought to accrue to the Transkei , whereas the Transkei Government is bound by the Constitution given by the Republican Government. The hon . the Minister of Education yesterday referred to the Constitution of the Transkei Parliament and in the
like to know why the Republican Government does not put these tax figures on the articles . They are articles used chiefly by the African people , which means that the indirect taxes they pay are very high. Take blankets , for instance . There was a time when the indirect tax on blankets and shawls used by Our wives was trebled and on
Transkei estimates of everything on which money is to be expended are well laid out . This does not mean that these are the only departments which will be given to the Transkei Government once that Government
articles like German prints the tax was 50 per cent. Even in Basutoland the tax on dark prints is over 50 per cent. You will realise that these articles are used chiefly
is self-determining . Although I cannot speak very well on figures and I am not a trader I would like to refer to what the speaker . said yesterday . Many speakers have said that the money given by the Republican Government is not sufficient. We are not certain that the Republican Government itself is satisfied with its revenue . Further ,
by the African people . Do you mean to tell me that there is someone with not enough brains to say that this motion is wanted? This loophole which we offer could enable the Government to ask for more money . (Interjections) Is it possible that they think this money is enough when the people of the Transkei are starving? The hon. member in front of me says the money is not enough but we should be thankful for it. How can you say it is not enough and then not ask for more? The wages paid in the Transkei are very low but every year it is announced that there is a surplus . What is the use of a surplus when the people are actually starving? (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , the salary scales for teachers and others in the Government have been raised and even my salary as a member of Parliament has
it is human nature always to ask for more than is given. I would like to state that the wages paid to the employees of this Government, from the labourers in the Roads and Works Department and in Agriculture and Forestry , are more than have been paid in the Transkei in previous times . Even the chiefs and members of this Assembly have never before received such stipends as they are receiving now. (Interjections) The hon . member who made that remark will not be answered as he is a new member of this Assembly . We have been in this House from the time of the Bunga until the present time, not as elected members . The last
been raised, but the salary scales for the chiefs have not been raised . Yes , the salaries of paramount chiefs have been
speaker is witness to what I am saying . Of all the governments which have directed the affairs of the Transkei, not one has ever before given a wage of 50 cents per day to their labourers . I would like the hon . member to understand that I do not say 50 cents
raised , but do you know the reason why they have been raised? (Interjections ) I know what has caused that. The reason is that the hon. Chief K.D. Matanzima is going to resign next year and will retire in his capacity as a paramount chief. (Laughter) He knows for a fact that the Chief Minister
a day is sufficient wage for a labourer. (Interjections) All I say is that as we advance efforts will be made to improve the situation . If our Transkei Government is a government that proposes to make
will not get a salary higher than that of a paramount chief. He wants to retire knowing well that he has all he needs . (Laughter) The chiefs do not realise that their salaries
progress , things of this nature will always be seen . The members of the Opposition have been told time and again to wait. I think I have already stated how we as a Government intend to pay Our labourers
have not been sufficiently raised . They know that when ever the Chief Minister speaks they will always say "Ja, baas". (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , it appears that they do not use their brains at all the time . There is a place where different animals are kept in the natural state and there you find very tall animals , others which are
as things improve. We would like to know what traders and employers pay their servants . I do not think there is any trader who pays a wage of more than 50 cents a day. I want to as sure this House that in
very short and others again which have big bellies. If you have not been there , Mr.
later years
Chairman , just look across the floor. (Laugh-
the
Government can consider
a wage board to look after the wages paid 254 .
money will be used for. I think he is quite right , because his stipend is over R3,600 . He does not think anything of the people whom we represent . He mentioned that the people who were employed on relief work had nobody to supervise their work and
to different employees . Reference was made to the speech delivered by the honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic in connection with the Government of Ovamboland. I note that many of our Transkei people have taken that to heart and would like to apply it in this Assembly . It is surprising that instead of helping our Government we are looking at different
they started at any time of the day. It is a pity that a statement of this nature should come from the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . All the things which are needed for the people to progress require money . As the demands made by the people increase , the funds to meet those demands must likewise grow. The people who oppose this motion say that the people should be taxed for
governments to see what they are doing for their own people . I do not see what relationship there is between our people in the Transkei and the people of Ovamboland. Our main object is to look after the interests of the Government and the people of the Transkei . Basutoland is a small country
whatever they want . The flat rate system of taxation applies only to the Bantu people of this country . The European people pay tax only if their income is R600 and in that case their income tax is about R4-86. That is for an unmarried man . A married man with or without a family only pays income tax of R2-34. How many Bantu
and here in this Assembly reference is constantly made to Basutoland and its government , a land which has only seven districts, as compared with 26 in the Transkei. Our Transkei Government is under the Government of the Republic of South Africa. If there are any members who oppose that idea they ought not to be members of this Assembly . If we all maintain we are under the Republican Government we ought therefore to be grateful for what the Republic an Government gives us by way of funds , because we are being nursed and helped
people earn as much as R600 per annum? If money accruing from indirect taxation were to be paid over to the revenue of the Transkei it would be found that we would
to make the advance that we ought to be making in the management of our country. At the present moment we are debating the question of the surpluses which are part of the money given us by the Republic an Government and if we take note of our financial records that surplus rises every
not even have to pay the taxes we pay now. Indeed the flat rate which applies to the Bantu people was the result of a decision by the European Parliament in Cape Town , the purpose of which was to force people to go to the labour centres in order to find money to pay their taxes . This was a result of what the United Party called " segregaor parallel development and the tion"
year . I have spoken in such a manner that a member who was fast asleep has just woken up. (Laughter) Even our stipends rise gradually .
Nationalist Party called it "apartheid" or separate development, and in 1963 the Government party adopted this separate development .
THE CHAIRMAN : You have five minutes more.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is it not in the Constitution? Who signed the Constitution?
CHIEF MOSHESH: The Chairman has said that I have five minutes more . Like
CHIEF NDAMASE : Over and above indirect taxes there are several taxes that
the chief I am, I often like to give to other people , so I will give that five minutes to
are paid only by the Bantu people , and they are the taxes which are a result of
a member of the Opposition , if there is one who wishes to speak. There are chiefs on the other side and chiefs are members
this separate development of which you dream in the night. What follows from this separate development idea is the ethnic grouping of people.
of the same family , whether they are on the Opposition side or the Government side. THE CHAIRMAN: I am sure the members have exhausted themselves on this motion and I shall call upon the mover to reply .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That was thought of before. CHIEF
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the amendment by the hon . the Minister of Education says we should thank the Republican Government for the money which has been given to us. In his speech he says we should have asked for an increase in the money given . He also said that even the experts would have difficulty in calculating the amount of indirect tax to be allocated to the Transkei. The indirect taxation ranges from 3 per cent to 55 per cent and putting it at 5 per centis putting it very low. The hon. Minister, Mr. Madikizela, wants to know what this
NDAMASE:
As
a result, the
people who are serving the people in the European areas live away by themselves out of town , which compels the African to find money for bus fares to and from work. Another fact resulting from this separate development policy is the migrant labour sy stem of Africans going from the Reserves to the urban areas , compelling them to pay heavy fares . Others undertake labour contracts which result from the influx control regulations, where a labourer who finds employment for a better wage is compelled to return home in order to sign a contract for another job. If a person loses
255.
his reference book he is fined R2 . Isn't that an indirect tax? A further tax on the people who live in the Reserves is that they are asked to destroy noxious weeds , and they are not paid for that labour . I am trying to show the number of different indirect taxes imposed upon the Bantu people purely as a result of this separate development idea. There is a further indirect tax under the PAYE scheme whereby the employer deducts from a man's wages and pays it to the Govemment. Why don't you realise that the reason for the low wages is because of these different indirect taxes ? The people receive a very low wage in the factories to enable the Government to tax the factory on its income, and similarly in the mines. These are the money s due to the Bantu labourers in these centres and you oppose that we should request the Republican Government to pay into the Revenue Fund of the Transkei these indirect taxes . If y ou are interested in the welfare of the people of the Transkei you ought to ask for more money from the Republican Government. If the House supports this motion the chiefs will certainly have enough money to increase their stipends , instead of receiving this meagre consolation which was paid to them when they were deprived of their people when the White man came to this country . We further desire that the employees of this Government should not starve but that their wage level should be equal to the wage of those working in European centres. The honourable the Prime
Minister of the Republic said when he was here: "A long road still lies ahead of you. Your greatest and most difficult task is to develop your country towards greater pro sperity and economic development. " Those can only be achieved by requesting all the moneys due to us · moneys which are in the Republic Con solidated Revenue Fund - to be transferred into our Transkei Government coffers . My last word is : Who would farm out some oxen to a friend and , if he loses an ox in the team which he has at home , would not ask the friend who is looking after his oxen to let him have one to replace the one he has lost? Only a fool would not do that. We have our oxen in the Republic - namely , indirect tax . Our team here has lost one ox and if you want money to help the activities of the Transkei to advance you must ask the Republican Government for it. I would like to say that I appeal to the Assembly to support the motion and to ask the Republican Government to transfer the indirect taxation paid by the Bantu people to the funds of the Transkei . I am not claiming what does not belong to us.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , owing to the failure of the electricity I have decided to adjourn the House until tomorrow. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Wednesday , 24 May , 1967.
256.
WEDNESDAY, 24TH MAY, 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , a statement reported by the Daily Dispatch on Saturday, the 20th May, 1967, alleged that the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. M.C. Botha , had asserted in the House ofAssembly in Cape Town that the Chief Minister had made it clear in the Transkei Legislative Assembly that he supported the policy of influx control and the repatriation of Africans to the homelands of the Transkei in particular. Because of the importance of this statement, Sir , I wish to make an announcement that this morning I contacted the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration in Cape Town to get a true version of his utterances . The honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration emphatically denies that the report made by the Daily Dispatch is the speech that he made in the House of Assembly. Now, this is the telephonic reply from the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. He says: " The United Party made reference to the Chief Minister's speech at the Transkei National Independence Party conference . The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development said he was not present and did not have an authentic report of what was said at that meeting and he had to rely on the newspapers for what was said at that conference . He then said : ' Assuming that the Chief Minister was critical regarding influx control he could understand it. ' He read out to the House from the roneo-ed policy speech of the Chief Minister the passage referring to influx control without making any comment on it. The Opposition likewise did not comment on that. In the Senate , when the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development delivered his policy speech, he again quoted the very same passage from the Chief Minister's speech and again the Opposition did not comment on it. " Now, Sir, I had to make this announcement in order to ease the minds of this House because when this statement came to my notice it called for my immediate reaction as it is calculated to damage my reputation and the reputation of my Government in so far as the policy for which we stand is concerned . I am happy that the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration has emphatically said that the statement which appeared in this paper is incorrect because it is not my policy, or that of my Government, to have a tug-of-war with the Republican Government on any measures which affect our people . Our policy is to lay whatever matter militates against the interests of our people quietly in writing, but in a very decent manner. My Government has not at any time supported the influx control regulations and the withdrawal of the Transkeian citizens fron the working centres . OP POSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and
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hon. members, the proposed amendments to Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963, namely, the law governing the conditions of service of officers and employees in the Transkeian Government Service, have as their purpose the following :Firstly, in terms of clauses 1 , 3 and 4 of the Bill, to make it quite clear that if, circumstances warrant it, not only Transkeian citizens but also members of any national unit referred to in section 2 of the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act, 1959 , may be transferred to or appointed in the Transkeian Government Service. The present wording may be construed as implying that a Ciskeian , not being a Transkeian citizen but being a member of the Xhosa -speaking national unit and therefore not a member of another Bantu national unit referred to in the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act , 1959 , is precluded from appointment in or transfer to the Transkeian Government service. To leave this situation as it is would be to give the impression of discrimination against people of the same national unit as Transkeian citizens , to the advantage of people of other national unit. That was never , and is not, the intention , and the amendments proposed in clauses 1, 3 and 4 of the Bill are designed to rectify the position. Secondly, in terms of clause 2 of the Bill , it is proposed to make it obligatory for a member of the Public Service Commission, who is duly nominated as a candidate for election to the Legislative Assembly, to vacate his office as a member of the Commission with effect from the date on which he is so nominated. In the Proclamation as it now reads there is nothing to prevent a member of the Commission continuing to serve on the Commission even after election to the Assembly - that is, to serve in both a legislative and executive capacity. As is well known, the separation of the legislature , the executive and the judiciary as far as is possible , is basic to our concept of democracy, and it is in conformity with this concept to prevent a member of a statutory executive body, to wit, the Public Service Commission, from becoming a controversial political figure as a nominee for election to the Assembly. Hon. members will notice that nomination for election to the Assembly will in itself be sufficient to disqualify a member of the Commission from further service on the Commission and that his subsequent success or failure at the polls will be irrelevant. The reason for this is self-evident, for such a member of the Commission will, by the very act of nomination , have become actively identified with a particular political party to an extent incompatible with membership of a statutory body, one of whose attributes must be the confidence ofthe public and the personnel of the Government Service , and it is the policy of the Government that nepotism should have no place in the deliberations or recommendations made by the Public Service Commission. The amendment is deemed necessary, having regard to the foregoing, and to the fact that a case of this nature recently arose when the chairman of the Commission was elected to the Assembly but who , I am glad to say, voluntarily relinquished his membership and chairmanship of the Commission. Finally, in terms of clause 5 it is intended to restore to the ex- T.T.A. officers who became officers in the Transkeian Government Service on the 11th December, 1963 , the right to retire on superannuation at the age of 63 years which they enjoyed under Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 as officers of the T.T.A. , and which was inadvertently overlooked when laying down a retirement age of 65 years in their case in terms of section 15 (2) of Proclamation No. R. 334 of 1963. Mr. Chairman, this is in brief the gist ofthe proposed
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legislation which is aimed solely at sound administration. I have no doubt that hon, members on both sides of the House are agreed on the necessity for sound administration in the Government Service and these measures are therefore not regarded as contentious . Mr. Chairman , I now move that the Bill be read a second time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to make a few comments relating to the Bill before us . I hope the hon. members on the Government benches will hear what I say even though I cannot see them inthe shadows . (Laughter) Fortunately for me I shall not see their facial contortions as they react to what I say. We welcome provision 2 which seeks to normalise a situation where a member ofthe Public Service Commission could continue in that capacity whilst he is a nominated candidate for election to the Assembly. I am not so sure that the hon. the Chief Minister did not say it with his tongue in his cheek when he said that the Government sought to separate legislative from executive functions .
MR. GUZANA: Here I canvass not the policy of multi-racialism but I seek to have a highly efficient civil service . ( Interjections) If it is inevitable that the hon. the Minister of Education should draw such an inference , it goes on to prove how honest and practical the policy of multiracialism is . (Laughter) We are also concerned , in looking at this Bill, over the fact that the Public Service Commission does not seem to have the penultimate word in the appointment of members of the civil service . We would like to see the Public Service Commission making its recommendation direct to the Minister of the department which seeks a civil servant. In the nature of things , we consider that the department usually lays down what qualifications it requires in a prospective employee and that the Public Service Commission in advertising this post includes these qualifications , and that from amongst the applicants in then recommends that applicant who approximates the qualifications required by that department. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you discussing now? MR . GUZANA : The principles in this Bill . In this Bill there is need for certain persons to be recommended to the Cabinet, which has to approve ...
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What makes you question that ? MR. GUZANA : To be tolerant and indulgent to those who have just had 'flu, I shall suggest that I say this because we have the same anomaly in this House where legislators are also administrators exercising administrative functions . If we seek to have democracy practised, or seek that it be seen that democracy is practised , this anomaly in the Legislative Assembly will certainly receive the attention of the Government in the immediate future . Section 1 relates to the employment of persons by the Transkei Government and the hon. the Chief Minister has suggested that the amendment seeks to clarify what might have been regarded as an ambiguity relating to the position of non-Transkeian citizens who belong to the Xhosa national unit. The view of this side of the House is that the Public Service is a body that stands above politics and above , shall I say, national identity. They should say have the ability, the character and the qualities that make for a good civil servant without any consideration being given as to their identity with any particular racial group or Bantu national unit. Our fear is that with the provisions as they stand, there is a tendency to circumscribe the personnel from which this Government or the Public Service Commission can draw members of the civil service in the Transkei . At the present moment comes to mind the dearth of highly qualified teachers and other personnel to take up jobs in the Transkei and that if this Government seeks to have an efficient civil service without requiring it to be a politically loyal service , it will have to face the situation when it will have to employ members of other racial groups . Indeed , to my mind, with an emerging government and an emergent state such as is contemplated by those who are willing to believe that dream (laughter) the people who should constitute the civil service of such a state should really have no national identity identifying them with the members of that emerging state . There is need for the Public Service Commission to be able to look at applications objectively, without having their choice bedevilled by national identity of the individual applicant.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is no such thing in this Bill. MR. GUZANA : Let us just look at section 4 of this Bill. In it the Commission recommends and if the person is not a Transkeian citizen, " with the approval of the Cabinet " . So that that is in this Bill. THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , deal with the citizenship, not with the applicants . MR . GUZANA : I think the Cabinet , in all event, must have no say as a Cabinet in the appointment of members to the civil service .
It
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It has no say at all . is only the Minister of the department.
MR . GUZANA: It has , according to what is in this Bill , the power of approval and my submission is that the Cabinet is a political body at the head of the state and its decisions may well infuse into the civil service political supporters , and that a non- Transkeian citizen who seeks employment in the civil service of the Transkei may well find that his application, when it comes before the Cabinet for approval , has to be looked at through political spectacles . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Has that ever happened before ? MR . GUZANA: If it has not happened then the queer thing is that even this Cabinet has championed during the existence of a banning order a candidate because he happened to be a political supporter. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is nonsense . MR . GUZANA : It was nonsensical for the Cabinet to think it that way. It is quite right to say that. Now we would like the Cabinet not to have a finger inthe pie at any time when appointments are made . (Interjections ) We know you will not allow Europeans to be employed in the civil service because you are politically influenced , no
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Multi- racialism ! 258.
ments on some of the bills we shall not do so with all others . In his remarks the hon the Chief Minister said that the Bill is intended not to preclude some persons of the Xhosa unit other than those in the Transkei . Perhaps at this stage it may be wise not to make the din louder , but he made that remark. However, it would appear on the whole that the Government wants to so narrow its circle that it is contrary to any new growth. We generally begin from the small and grow up, but in accordance with the narrow outlook of the Government this Bill so narrows itself down that even if they do not get efficient people they are content as long as they are within the narrow circle .
matter what the result of your political bias is against the White man. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the Government's policy. MR. GUZANA: Allow us then to criticize you and say that the public service will never be an efficient one because your political conviction is against employing members of other racial groups than your own. We have had a platitude from the hon. the Chief Minister to the effect that the civil service must be an independent body unaffected by political allegiance and, in fact, members of the civil service must survive all governments , no matter what policy they follow. That is the essence of a civil service . Now you want to make it a realisation of your political ideology.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Narrow circle of what? We can employ Basutos , Shangaans , Zulus .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is the Constitution of the Transkei . We are bound by the Constitution.
MR. RAJUILI: I will come to that when we come to the committee stage . The question ofthe members who have sat on the Public Service Commission has already been touched on but in passing I would like to say that we are not able to see how, when people have been identified with politics , they are able to serve on the Public Service Commission, but today the hon. the Chief Minister says something which seems to contradict that. Somewhere he referred to some nepotistic attitudes that would not be expected to obtin when the Public Service Commission does its work. One wonders , with the type of Government we have , if indeed encouragement of some such nepotistic attitude will really be safeguarded . Sir, I shall not take much ofyour time. I am just about to sit down, but as I say, we are supposed to be a growing state and we are watching with care these things that are said and not done in practice .
MR. GUZANA : This side of the House will make the amendments necessary to embody the principles I have enunciated and, however much the Government may shake its head , we shall pursue our point despite the loaded voting fodder against us. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You can make amendments , but we won't allow them. MR. GUZANA : Just one last word - we would like to see the Public Service Commission look like a body without a membership that has been tainted by politics . (Interjections) During the 1963 elections the members of the Public Service Commission were drawn from the rejects of the electorate, (Laughter) and today the Government side boasts a member who has come from the Public Service Commission. Allow me to compliment that hon. member that he does not behave like a chameleon , and if his colour today is separate development then in 1963 that was his political colour .
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the question that the Bill be read a second time .
Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you talking about?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The committee stage will be taken tomorrow morning, Sir.
MR. GUZANA : If you do not understand , don't bother. The point I am canvassing is that we would like the Public Service Commission to look non-political .
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL COMMITTEE STAGE . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House sits in committee .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Suggest names . MR . GUZANA : The hon . the Minister of Justice asks me to suggest names and I do suggest one just now.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is no vacancy at present.
House in Committee
On Clause 1
MR . GUZANA : I think when the hon. the Minister of Justice is rejected by the electorate in 1968 he will also reject his policy of separate development and I will recommend him to the Public Service Commission.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Why do you say that?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I move the adoption of clause 1. I would wish to give the House the basis on which the gratuities and annuities are calculated . For an officer with pensionable service of from five years to 15 years it will be a gratuity at the rate of half the pensionable emoluments during the last month of pensionable service for each completed year of pensionable service .
MR. RAJUILI: We hope we have not been so conditioned that although we did not make com-
MR. K.M. GUZANA : What is that now? You said this thing was going to be straight forward
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are wondering whether the principles in the Bill today cannot be gone into.
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is - say an employee had 14 years of service when he was transferred from the Republican Government Service to the Transkei Government Service. He would be entitled to a gratuity from the Republican Government. If, however , his subsequent employment under the Transkei Government resulted in a total period of 25 years continuous service , he would be entitled to an annuity and therefore , to facilitate payment to him of the respective share of benefits payable to him by the Republican Government and the Transkei Government it is necessary to convert the annuity to a gratuity, and it is for that purpose that the conversion rate of R10 for each rand so converted is provided . Taking , for instance , the last example I gave the hon. members where an employee had to receive R90 per annum , that being an annuity, then that R90 per annum will be multiplied by 10 to make it R900 and then it becomes a gratuity and he is given that in a lump sum instead of being given that money in pennies , shillings and so on.
for any member of the pension fund to understand. What is this now? (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: To give an illustration, Mr. Chairman, let us say an employee had completed twelve years of pensionable service on his retirement. His pensionable emoluments during the last month of serving were R50 , shall we say · • MR. GUZANA: Why not say he was earning R50 a month at the end of the twelve years ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It is the same thing. MR.
GUZANA : Well , it makes it easier.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: What it means is that that person will get half the R50 multiplied by the twelve years , making R300. He gets that R300 in a lump sum as a gratuity. I think that is clear.
MR . GUZANA : What are pennies and shillings ?
MR. GUZANA : It is clear as mud to the other people here , especially the Government side.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I mean rands and cents . Mr. Chairman , Ithink the position is clear as far as that is concerned and I move the adoption of clause 1.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : If an employee has completed 15 to 25 years of pensionable service then that person will get not a gratuity but an annuity at the rate of R2 for each year of service , but not exceeding half of his annual pensionable emoluments during the last ten years of service . There again Iwill give you an example. Say an employee had completed 20 years of service on retirement, earning, say, R100, then the annuity payable will be 20 years multiplied by the R2 which will come to R40, or half the R100 that he was earning, which is R50 but he shall get of these two sums whichever is the lesser. He will therefore get R40.
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I speak to the amendment standing to my name, that section ( 1) (b) be amended by substituting the word " shall " for the word " may" after the first " there " in the first line . My reading of section (1) (b) is that the dependants referred to are the dependants of persons referred to in section (1) (a) and you have provided in section (1) (a ) that the money shall be paid, and I cannot see why the dependants may be paid if they qualify for this benefit, because they are the dependants of the person described or referred to in section ( 1 ) ( a) . If the Government has to pay the persons referred to in section (1) ( a ) then the people referred to in section (1) (b) who qualify because they are dependants of persons referred to in section (1) (a) should have the right to be paid this money. My fear is that where we have the word " may" , the Department or the Government may well not pay. The provision makes it permissive rather than obligatory , hence the amendment , Sir .
MR. GUZANA: What is the moral justification for that? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The thing is you might find that, for instance , the amount might exceed the R100 . Now that person cannot be given . ... MR. GUZANA : Just give an example where it will exceed the R100. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I will give it to you later on. Let us just get through this . With pensionable service again of 25 years or more he will get an annuity of R3 for every year of service or an annuity of two-thirds of the average pensionable emoluments during the last three years , whichever is greater. Need I give you an example there again?
MR . B.S. RAJUILI: I second , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the word " may" must be retained to make possible the implementation of provisions under sub- section ( 3) of the clause . That sub-section gives the Minister the right to allocate a portion of the benefits to a dependant where there is no widow.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , Sir. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Say, for instance , an employee had completed 30 years and was earning R150 , his annuity will be calculated to be the 30 years multiplied by the R3, coming to R90; or two thirds of that R150 which is R100 , but he shall get the R90 and not the R100.
MR. widow?
GUZANA : But supposing there is a
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : In that case she gets it. MR. GUZANA: Why is there this " may" then?
MR. GUZANA : We shall ask again, why? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It may perhaps be that the dependants are millionaires who do not need the money.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Yes , I am bearing that in mind . The proviso to subclause (a) which provides the formula by which an annuity can be converted to a gratuity is based on life expectancy of ten years after retirement at pensionable age . This is a case now whereby an annuity is being made a gratuity. An example
MR. GUZANA : But this refers to dependants of persons who qualify under ( 1) (a) . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The idea 260.
is to build up our fund for those who really need it . MR. GUZANA : Now that is unfair , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: This House can be assured that in exercising any discretion in terms of sub- section (3) the Minister will act with due regard to the merits of each case. If benefits are to be reduced it will only happen in very exceptional cases and one can hardly foresee that it will perhaps ever happen. MR. GUZANA : I want to ask why such an eventuality should be in the mind of the Minister of the Interior . After all , these dependants shall have qualified for a specified amount and the money must go to them whether they be millionaires or paupers . You might have a father who will not spend a penny to save his soul , putting his money away until he has accumulated R6,000 at the time when he dies . Now he has dependants and is the Minister going to say these dependants are going to be in comfortable circumstances because they inherited R6,000 and then reduce the amount due to them? Why does the Government want to enhance its finances to the detriment of people who have qualified for a specific amount in terms of the very complicated figures that he has shown us here ? I am going to be persuaded to the view that this complicated formula has been devised in order to confuse a qualifying person so that when he or she is entitled to R90 they will give her R9. (Laughter) I am afraid the comments of the Minister make me feel that there are ulterior motives in this matter. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Have you got your Act ? MR. GUZANA : I know Appendix B uses the term " may" .
at
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Now look section (9) ( 2) of the second Schedule .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I am surprised by the hon. the Minister of the Interior when he just stands up and says : I move section 2. If I remember our comments when the Bill was read a second time we did mention the position of the teacher beginning employment under the Department of Bantu Education. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am waiting for you to elaborate on that. MR . GUZANA : I see . Now, in section 2 (4) the provision is that in respect of those teachers they may contribute by way of instalments to the pension fund scheme from a date set down as the 1st April , 1966. Now here the provision is imperative and even those who have joined the teaching profession after the 1st April , 1966 , will start from the date when they are employed to contribute to this fund. It would appear to me therefore that the Department accepts the principle of retrospective contribution, but I am concerned over the teacher who has taught for ten years or eleven years under the Department of Bantu Education and who was not at the time contributing to a pension scheme , and this teacher may be in a financial position to make contributions retrospective to the date when he first took up employment as a teacher under the Department of Bantu Education. Should that indulgence not be extended to him since he is in this position not of his own creation ? Thus with the amendment suggested there will be the imperative provision requiring that all teachers must contribute retrospectively to the 1st April , 1966, but there will be a proviso allowing teachers who are able to do so to contribute retrospectively to the date when they were first employed as teachers . The benefit, of course , is obvious in that the amount of the pension that the teacher will draw will be greater ifhe is allowed to make a retrospective contribution by way of instalments to the date on which he first began teaching under the Department of Bantu Education. That is how I motivate this amendment , Sir . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this question was gone into by my Department fully, and I came to this conclusion , that a questionnaire must be sent to each and every teacher, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, to find out as to whether any of those teachers are going to be prepared to pay arrear contributions . Then in that way we can assess the percentage of teachers who may wish to pay arrear contributions and the financial implications can be gone into.
MR. GUZANA : I have not got the Act here now, but I did read it. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : There is a consequential provision . MR . GUZANA : How does that affect the " may" and the " shall " ? I am speaking about "' shall " to substitute " may" . I want it to be obligatory. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Subsection (3) of clause 1 ofthe Bill , on page 5 .... MR . GUZANA : That's right, but that is after he has decided whether or not he is going to give it. What we seek is that the dependant SHALL be given and then the Minister shall do something else , but he may decide not to give and it is no use making it obligatory on him to give when he has already decided he is not going to give this annuity or gratuiry. I shall give the Minister a chance to consult on this matter. I hope the hon. Minister understands I am not putting him into a corner . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I say " yes " to the amendment. It is accepted . I move the adoption of clause 1 as amended . Clause 1 as amended put and agreed to. On Clause 2
MR. GUZANA : If I may explain - the proviso is really permissive , not obligatory on the teacher and I suppose the Department would like to know the number that would be involved . But does the Department accept the principle as embodied in this intended amendment? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon members , it will be recalled that when we discussed the second reading of this Bill I expressed a view that this touching the personnel of my Department I was in sympathy with the views expressed by the hon. member of the Opposition. I can assure the hon. member that the principle of the amendment is sound but it must be remembered that whenever a Bill is tabled before this House a certificate is usually obtained from Treasury for those Bills that have financial implications and if this sub- section is passed as it is and these matters gone into we can always make an amendment such as is conte-
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n mplated by the amendment of the hon. member of the Opposition.
may not be an appetizer. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think if you agree to delete one thing inthis amendment, this side of the House will be reasonable enough to meet you half-way. This period of 30 days .
MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are standing , Mr. Minister , do I take it therefore that this proviso which we seek to introduce will exceed the financial implications which would have been involved had it not been included and therefore you would have to get another certificate ?
MR. GUZANA : What do you want to substitute ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Naturally , because the Transkei Government contributes on a rand for rand basis .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Nothing, because it is very difficult for the Department to be tied down.
MR . GUZANA : May I just ask then what amount was covered by the certificate from Treasury relating to this Bill? My view is that if it has financial implications , he O.K.s it without going into the extent of the amount involved, and that the coverage is all -embracing.
MR . GUZANA : Let me facilitate matters because these people are really soft today. (Laughter) Delete the words from '' such" tothe end of the paragraph .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It was about R1,200,000 - that is to say, from about April, 1966 , I think. Now you can imagine what it will be from about 1956 , although really it would not be this amount every year because not all the teachers would take advantage of the scheme .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : But this is the case as it is now in Proclamation 143 of 1921. Section 14 provides that if a member retires voluntarily from the service of the Council (it was the Council then) before having attained pensionable age , he shall be entitled to a return of the whole amount of his pension contributions .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR . GUZANA : May I know, Mr. Chairman, if this is intended to ask me to withdraw this amendment with a guarantee undersigned by everybody on that side ? (Laughter)
MR . GUZANA: I see , that was when he voluntarily left, but supposing he is kicked out ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : There again , in section 14 (2 ) : If an officer being discharged on account of misconduct or retirement or being called upon to resign in order to avoid such discharge , he shall be refunded the amount of his contributions to the fund without interest .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Say in good faith. MR. GUZANA : Notwithstanding the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. That the matter will be looked into sympathetically , bearing in mind the help that we need for these teachers ? There is this question, however , that a delay in these matters means an extra burden on the teachers .
MR. GUZANA : Now this Bill , Mr. Chairman, does not seek to amend that proclamation . It is a complete Bill by itself, and the Government might well turn round and say these are the provisions governing the Transkeian Government Service pensions due and payable to persons and there is no provision in this Bill .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Quite . MR. GUZANA : So that by next year an extra year will have passed , meaning an extra year of instalments . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We quite appreciate that , but the position is that neither the teacher nor the Transkeian Government is responsible for this position and therefore we are trying to meet each other half-way.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Look on page 6. Sub- section ( 3) states : The provisions of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 shall apply to every departmental official who does not contribute , etc. In other words the provisions of that Proclamation shall still apply.
MR. GUZANA : I relunctantly withdraw, Mr. Chairman, but I will bear this in mind. ( Laughter)
MR. GUZANA : It is specifically other than rule 12 thereof. What is rule 12 ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the seconder agree ?
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. RAJUILI : Yes , Sir. The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The amendment was withdrawn. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is another amendment standing to the name of the hon. Mr. K.M.N Guzana : That there be added subsection (5) to section 2 to read as follows : ' 'A departmental official shall be entitled to a refund of the amount standing to his credit in the Transkeian Government Employees Pension and Gratuity Fund if he/she should cease to be employed under the Transkei Government , such refund to be made not later than 30 days after cessation of services . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is ten to one I think the meal I dish out
The debate on the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Bill was resumed . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. Mr. Guzana was holding the floor and I shall allow him to carry on. MR . K.M. GUZANA : If I remember , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I had canvassed my point and I think it was over to the Minister . We did look into this matter and I think he will be able to indicate something that will meet our requirements . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr.
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hon. members , having gone Chairman and through this matter I feel I will accept the amendment, as amended .
pleased that in Engcobo they were pointing to properties owned by Europeans and saying: This property will belong to me. We made efforts to explain to the people that they would never have manna dropping from Heaven for the second time . They would have to buy these properties if they had money to so, and if they had no money the properties would be bought by the BIC for the Nationalists , for the aim of the Nationalists is to drive out all the Englishspeaking people and leave only the Afrikaaners , making preparations so that the Transkei , which is a stronghold of the United Party, should then become a Nationalist seat. (Interjections ) I do not want you to believe that the Europeans are leaving the Transkei . Only the English- speaking population are being removed, to be replaced by the Afrikaners and although there is a promise that the towns will be zoned I hope that no partition will be erected to separate the Black from the White people in the towns .
Agreed to. Clause 2 as amended put and agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 put and agreed to. The whole Bill , as amended , put and agreed
to . House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Bill before the House has been dealt with and has been accepted by the committee with certain amendments . THE CHAIRMAN : What date for the third reading?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: What are you moving? You have not moved yet.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Thursday, the 25th May, or so soon thereafter , Mr. Chairman .
MR. MAJIJA : I will remind you because you forget quickly. I move :
THE CHAIRMAN: We shall now resume our debate on Motion 44.
" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending to the Village Management Boards the election of African Town Councillors as well as European Councillors in zoned towns or villages. "
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I have been requested by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase to ask for your indulgence in relation to this matter . He has had to attend a regional authority meeting today in Libode and these are some of the embarrassments to which members of this House who are chiefs are put to. ( Laughter) Sir , he would like to be here when this matter is disposed of but because of official duties devolving upon him as a result of his position he asks that it be postponed till tomorrow .
This motion is moved particularly for the members on the Government side , because we have always advocated multi-racialism . The towns have been zoned and you have achieved what you promised when you told the people this was their Canaan . As I have already said, there should be no partition to separate Black from White . This motion indicates that we want Bantu members on the town councils . We have European members already and we want to have Bantu members as well. There is no reason why the Bantu people who dwell in these towns should not have direct representation in the Councils . (Interjections) There will be rules and regulations which will be binding on them . These people will pay electricity, property and water rates and those who have cattle will pay grazing fees and they will also be taxed on their stock. Others will open businesses and will have green-grocers' shops and so on. These people will therefore be responsible for seeing that there are roads leading to their places of business and they will also take particular note ofthe hygienic conditions of the part of the town occupied by them. The Bantu are employed by the Europeans . They look after their babies , cook for them, see to their gardens and chop wood for the European housewives and in the part partitioned off for the Bantu people you will require European technicians of various kinds . This indicates that people in a zoned town must depend on one another. As the people will now be living in the same area it is necessary that they should be under the same council instead of having a Bantu and a European council . We on this side of the House maintain that taxation without representation is tyranny. We cannot be satisfied to be told by certain people that we should pay certain taxes, whereas we have no direct representatives on the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is finished . MR. GUZANA : You were not here . (Interjections) He did indicate to me that he had hoped to finish off the last ten minutes of his reply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He had finished. You were here . Don't quarrel with me. MR. GUZANA : (Laughter) He therefore craves your indulgence so that he may be allowed to exercise his vote and those of others who have gone with him on a matter over which he has no control because of his dual or treble duties . THE CHAIRMAN: We whall take a vote on this motion tomorrow. MR . GUZANA : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. ELECTION OF AFRICAN MEMBERS TO VILLAGE MANAGEMENT BOARDS MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as the hon. the Minister of Education has already said I did not want zoning, I can tell him he is telling the truth, but to help them I thought I should bring this motion . This is what they should have thought of and done when this Parliament was brought into being. When the people were informed that these places would be zoned they thought that this was like manna falling from Heaven. When the children of Israel left Egypt they found manna in the desert. They informed the electorate that this manna comes from the late Dr. Verwoerd who was then in Pretoria. The people were so
councils which are imposing these taxes . The Bantu people will therefore be particularly careful that in the area zoned for Bantu people hygienic conditions will be maintained . When this came into being there was no peace even in 13.
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Umtata, because the policy of separate development is responsible for misunderstanding between the different peoples . The European people were quite happy before that and likewise the Bantu people were happy, but no one knows what the future has in store for them. We are quite assured that all this that comes from Pretoria was not to make things happy for the Black man. (Interjections ) At one time we wanted freedom , and instead we were given liquor . I therefore maintain in this motion that the Government should consider the advisability of recommending to the Village Management Boards the election of African town councillors and in those towns which have been earmarked for the Bantu people entirely we hope there are already Bantu councillors - towns such as Tsomo and so on. Engcobo has been zoned into White and Black areas, but I might say that when the hon. the Chief Minister got to Engcobo and told that the town would be zoned there was mistrust between the Europeans and the Africans . In the portion given to the Bantu people the two boardinghouses were closed. The hon. member for Tembuland says they were very unhygienic. The people in the Reserves close to Tsomo were allowed to rent grazing for their stock and they paid 15 cents a head. After the town was zoned their stock was not allowed grazing any more although it was stated that the grazing would be handed over to the Bantu . Before zoning the people were allowed to graze stock on the commonage but after zoning they were told to drive their stock out . All I want to state is that where there is separate development the result is hatred . If the councillors sit side by side , Black and White together, they will come to understand one another. If you were not so obstinate I would not have to speak for so long because this is just what you want. You preached this zoning idea a great deal . You promised the people that they would be able to buy properties in the towns and you said the Democratic Party did not agree that the people should own those properties . However , I was not surprised because whenever there is a by-election you make wild promises to the electorate . ( Interjections) You even pretend that you own the heavens and that you have been in Heaven before . You have even gone as far as to tell some of our people they must not dip their stock because you would see that that would be arranged . If the Opposition had said that you would have pointed a finger at them. We told the people to continue dipping their stock because that is the law. They were further told to apportion for themselves plots of arable land. Members of the Opposition can bear witness to what I am saying. This motion is quite clear and straightforward and you ought to support it. I shall therefore not say much more . I move accordingly. MR. H.H.
the Constitution Act. " Mr. Chairman, the wording of the amendment is straightforward and unambiguous and I am not going to waste valuable time seeing that we have got to save as much daylight as possible . The mover of the original motion tried in vain to persuade us to re- introduce by the back door his multi- racial policy and it is surprising, Mr. Chairman, how diligent these people are and how careful they are in trying every time to reintroduce this Hydra -head of multi - racialism . Once tempted to think that they have got something they promised somebody they would at any cost try and introduce this system into the Transkei as a consideration for what they have been paid, because one cannot appreciate why they should be steadfast and constant in their attempts to introduce a policy which is against our Government policy. The motion of no confidence , which is a yearly event, has always been defeated ... • OPPOSITION MEMBER : Defeated by voting robots. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : . and our majority is increasing every time , to the detriment of their ratio . The main bone of contention, of course , is multi -racialism but still they bring it in. The hon. mover of the motion very poorly tried to give us the duties of a VMB which displayed gross ignorance . According to the Constitution Act provision is made for this zoning and the creation of these African councils , and there are certain conditions which had to be placed there so that they should qualify for membership of those councils . One of those conditions is that a candidate must be a property owner or he must rent property there and be a member of the rate -payers ' association of that particular town or village , and there is ample provision even in the present Constitution for the creation of an entirely Bantu council when there is a sufficient number of Africans who have acquired property in the way I have stipulated above. But that will not happen overnight , because provision is made for the present administration of these villages to continue as though no zoning had taken place because , after all , what would be the point ? The rates remain the same , the conveniences remain the same and the trading facilities remain the same , and whatever the municipality or village council owes for the conveniences that have been brought about there , they owe it for the whole village and not for part of the village , which means that those European councillors who are administrating the affairs of that village will do everything for every part of that village. (Interjections) The mover tried to tell us that they wil neglect the part that is zoned for Africans . They are not so irresponsible as he is. Now, what I want to say is that these Africans councils will be formed and the officials , whoever they are in the White councils, will do their best to train these people for the eventual take -over
ZIBI : I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before going much further I would like to move an amendment to this motion to make it more intelligible : That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and substituted by the following: -
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: It is nothing like that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It will happen, because as soon as the Africans have bought one part of the town another slice will be cut off from the remaining part and then it is found necessary , because , after all , 75 or 50 per cent of the village is in the hands of the Africans and so they will start a small council of their own. Then they will function just on the same lines as the Europeans do , but now I ask the hon. member · why try and mix with the Europeans ?
"the present administration of zoned urban areas , in terms of section 9 of Proclamation No. R.336 of 1965 read with section 60 ( 3) (d) of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963, should be continued until such time as the number of properties in zoned areas which are occupied and owned by Transkei citizens are sufficient to warrant the administration of the areas by the body or bodies envisaged by the said section of
MR. MAJIJA : Because they are human beings . 264.
what thiis man thinks about the Transkei : "Mr. Guzana acknowledged the benefits received in the Transkei in recent years. " And now you have just had your increments and allowances and you did not return it to the Government. It was misstated by the hon. member from Nyanda regiou that the chiefs in the Transkei did not get their increments. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , but what we cannot understand with you people is that we said by way of interjection that you opposed this zoning , and I do not think you even encourage your people to buy these places.
MR . MAJIJA: You don't pay them well enough. How can you expect them to buy? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I say that because so few have taken advantage of this zoning and they are not even worth representation in the European councils . However , I am not surprised at you because you always look across to the White man but you don't see that the White man is keeping you away at arm's length , because just imagine a town council with some of you speakers here in that council. Imagine a parliament in Cape Town which had some ofyou as members . To which party would you belong? OPPOSITION MEMBER : To the Democratic Party.
MR. K.G. NOTA : That's right - they did not. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I acknowledge that. They got them before. Now these chiefs in the Transkei are no worse · in fact, they are three times better off than the chiefs in the rest of the Republic. (Interjectious)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I can tell you that they get three times as much as the chiefs and headmen in the other territories . Those are the benefits which you receive as. manna from Heaven. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is no Democratic Party there . MR . C.S. MDA : We are not made for the party; the party is made for us. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I know where you would form those parties . You would form them in gaol where we would never go . (Interjections ) That is why you spread these ideas of hatred . And I must tell you - it may be good news to you or perhaps bad news your friend Ahrenstein has been given four full years of compulsory service and, ofcourse , you regret that. ( Interjections )
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not going to waste the time of the House commenting on the tripe and muck we have heard from the other side . All that is to be regretted is that a journalist has to come from as far away as Australia in order to meet a Minister ....
THE CHAIRMAN : Just a minute , please , hon. member. We want a seconder to the amendment. MR. E.G. SIHELE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
MR. ZIBI : I had just said that it is indeed a great pity that a journalist from as far afield as Australia should come to the Transkei to meet a minister of the calibre of the one who has just spoken, and as a result they have a wrong gauge of the standard in the Transkei. They will soon think that even on this side of the House we are as uncouth and uncultured as the hon . Minister is. A few days ago we were discussing a motion of independence. Kindly note that in this House we have an Independence Party and a Freedom Party and, of course , a modest Party for the people. If Freedom Parties stand for freedom , you, the Independence Party should stand for independence. The Independence Party says: No, you are not ready now. The Democratic Party says to the Freedom Party: You want freedom here is freedom. And they say: No , we don't want freedom. One just wonders what the trend of reasoning is if that zoning is indeed a brainchild of the party across there . If I had talked to my party here I would have reminded them that one of the chief causes of the French Revolution was taxation without representation . It is unfortunate that as far as the other side is concerned I am merely talking to myself. The position is that there are many things which have to be put right in any one village , city or town. The unfortunate aspect of the whole thing is that our Ministers , plus the majority of the chiefs on that side , have never left these backward rural areas oftheirs to go into the towns to see what the difficulties are that people are experiencing there . They say they do not want to belong to the towns but when you live in town you find there are things like rates .(Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBER: And where is Nkrumah? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I don't know what he would have advised you about this motion and that is why you had better behave , because when you went to him in Durban you found he was under house arrest and last week the Supreme Court confirmed the sentence of four years under the Suppression of Communism Act. I hope when he returns you will behave better. Let these institutions flourish because we do them for your benefit. Don't interfere with the Europeans in their village management boards. They had a Civic Association meeting here the other day in Umtata under Colonel Fyfe - King , a man who is known to be one of the best administrators we have ever had in this house and he never said a single word in praise of your methods of trying to multiracialize the Transkei. MR. RAJUILI: What did he say about separate development? Did he say anything about that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am speaking to the Chairman and I don't regard you as a human being. (Laughter) I just want to quote one thing to show that although you are against separate development you get all the benefits from it and accept them whole-heartedly. I will just quote one line from that cutting which I had the other day. This is from New South Wales , and perhaps some of you do not know where that is. It is in Australia. (Laughter) A group of journalists visited me in my office the other day from Australia.
CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , in cutting matters short I think I will ask you to listen attentively to the Chairman. I do not think that everybody who is
MR. RAJUILI : And they went away disappointed. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This is
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The debate was adjourned.
here has come for nothing . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Thank you , chief. Please sit down.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 25th May, 1967 .
MR. ZIBI : As a Christian I have learned to bear fools comfortably on my back. I was saying that as a result of living in town people get enlightened and civilised and they want reprethat is, sentation in these councils in towns they must represent themselves , not the kind of thing that is happening today in the provincial councils and the central government where you people across there are satisfied with being represented by Europeans . There are even in towns very painful issues where these people would like to say something, such as grazing fees , dipping, limitation of whatever livestock they wish to have in town and , above all of course , naturally when it gets to administration of any place we must be represented . Now it is the other side that wanted this zoning , and now when they have it they do not want those people who live in the zoned areas to be represented in the governing councils of those towns , although the people who live in those towns want representation . We have time and again tried to impress this Government that they must stop trying to do these things for the people and let the people do things for themselves . They will always bring in this separate development affair of theirs even where it does not arise. The hon. Minister there wants to know why it is that we want to be on the councils with the Europeans when the Europeans do not want us. Now the question is : What happens to the African girl who works as a domestic servant for a particular White person: and what happens to the garden boy? Don't they live in the same area ? And what is the position today with the set-up of their own government? The seconded officials , together with their staffs , are with them to carry out the work, and to drive it further home there are some young European fellows who are appointed now to take charge of those people who were being trained to take over - young fellows just left school. As a result of that there are certain clerks in all the departments who are graded , say, first grade and senior grade and who are being paid for doing lower grade jobs under those little European boys. There are also a few cases where a man is given a certain grade and we are told he is doing the work of a lower grade because one of those young European boys is perhaps blocking his way. There is also the question of this BIC which we are supposed to use in getting some of those properties in town, and people want to be represented so that they can discuss even this wonderful establishment of yours , the BIC. It is a pity that the hon. Ministers have sold their very souls for a policy that is not even theirs . I will not belabour the issue any longer, Mr. Chairman. This question is their own idea and we are asking them to see it complete . It must not be as fallacious as the rehabilitation scheme is where they will always promise people that if they rehabilitate they will get this and that and they never get any of these things . What they are saying now is that the position is not ripe for the people to enter those councils , from the reply of the Minister , much as they said we were not ripe for independence. They ought to change their name of TNIP. The whole truth nakedly standing and facing us is that the Ministers are not ripe to be our ministers. In fact, they are not ripe for anything, even a Baboonstan. ( Laughter)
THURSDAY, 25TH MAY, 1967
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , as the lights are not yet working and it is dark, we shall adjourn until 11 a.m. tomorrow.
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Friday, the 26th day of May, 1967, I propose to move the first reading of a Bill to amend the Bantu Labour Regulation Act , 1911 .
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS BILL MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I hope the House will not be surprised to see my standing up this morning. This is no usurpation of the Minister ofthe Interior's position. If we refer to the votes and proceedings of the 24th May , 1967 , page 215 , we will notice that there is an amendment which I moved , seconded by the hon. Revd. B.S. Rajuili and accepted by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. Now there has been some reading subsequent to the acceptance of that amendment and we notice that the Transkei Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund established under Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 has provisions extending far greater advantages to the departmental officials we sought to benefit by the amendment which was accepted by this House . If this House passes the Bill as amended , then the later enactment will affect adversely the people we sought to benefit by the amendment. These benefits are guaranteed in sections 13, 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , etc. of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921. In the circumstances , with the leave of the House , I wish to be granted permission to withdraw that amendment and that the Bill be regarded as having been accepted in the committee stage without that amendment and reported to the Chairman without that amendment. Thank you , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with the acceptance of the House , Mr. Chairman , I accept the withdrawal.
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Government Service Pensions Bill be now read a third time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to . The Bill was read a third time . TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT ACT : COMMITTEE STAGE THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider the Public Service Amendment Bill.
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MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, before this motion is seconded I want to comment on this question affecting the procedure that seems to be the rule , rather than the exception, when Cabinet Ministers introduce and handle bills through this House . After the second reading of the bill a date is fixed for the committee stage of the bill and the tendency of the Ministers is to put down the following day for the Committee stage . Amendments which members ofthe House may seek to include in the bill have to be submitted to the Secretary before 4 o'clock on the day previous to the committee stage day. In this particular bill we have had yesterday's second reading and today we are having the committee stage , and amendments have been submitted which have been hurriedly drafted without giving members time to consult on those amendments which they seek to introduce . The danger is that sometimes amendments which would otherwise not have been tabled are put before this House and the House votes on them , and it is only subsequently that we find that the intention sought to be secured is nullified . I make the plea that at least a day should intervene between the second reading and the committee stage of the bill to give the members time to study round intended amendments .
to exclude Ciskeians from being considered for appointment in or transfer to the Transkei Government Service , quite a number have in fact already been admitted . Now, clauses 1, 3 and 4 of the Bill now place the matter beyond dispute by providing for the appointment, transfer, etc. , of a Transkeian citizen or a member of a national unit as referred to in section 2 of the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act of 1959 , therefore such section does not need any explanation and I move that this section be adopted . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR . T.H. BUBU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have an amendment to move · ... THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , we have this amendment on the order paper, but it is embarrassing because we do not even know to which clause it refers as it is written here. I should have referred to it in my remarks if I knew to what section it refers , but as it stands it does not say which section is being amended , so you will have to amend your own amendment. MR. BUBU: It refers to the amendment ofthe hon. the Chief Minister .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who are you to bring in amendments ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Which clause? Youdo not say .
MR . GUZANA : Now, the hon. the Chief Minister asks 'who are we to bring in amendments here . That is most annoying indeed , and we cannot take that sort of remark lying down. This morning we have shown a certain amount of co-operation on an amendment which was put in and accepted by this House and which could have been held valid , and I could easily have refused to withdraw that amendment. Now this is the type of reaction we get from the Cabinet, from the head of the Cabinet himself.
MR. BUBU: Clause 1. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, you cannot at this stage . There is nothing in this amendment to say it refers to section 1. It must be thrown out. There is no amendment , and unless the hon. member asks for the leave of the House to amend his own amendment , then I move that this be struck off the order paper because it is vague and embarrassing . We must know to what this amendment refers . It might refer to section 2 or even 4 or 5 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Sit down. You are wasting the time of the House .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , when an amendment is sought to be submitted before 4 p.m. the previous day it is to give the Secretary an opportunity to look at the amendment to see if it is complying with all the requirements of an amendment and if there is any ambiguity about the amendment he refers it back to the member who has put it in. It cannot therefore be argued that this is vague and embarrassing and the member can speak to the amendment and particularize as he addressed this House , because this amendment which is contained in this order paper has the approval of the Secretary to be there.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , I may be but I think I should waste it for the benefit of the people for whom we legislate . I think we are not going to be catapulted into legislation because the Ministers want to rush their bills precipitately through the House without giving the House adequate time to consider these bills. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the Cabinet has taken note of the remarks of the Opposition. They are very reasonable and I want to give the hon. member the assurance that we will take notice of that in future . THE CHAIRMAN: We now want a seconder.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, what we are concerned with is the amendment which is being brought up in this House . We are not concerned with the omissions of the Secretary and what he has done and what he should have done . We have section 1 of the Bill and as far as the order paper is concerned there is no amendment to that section . This amendment as it stands could have referred to any section, and the fact that the hon. the would-be mover of the amendment can stand up and say he refers to that section does not cure the position. His only remedy at the moment is to ask leave of this House to amend his own amendment and particularize in that amendment to which section this intended amendment refers .
THE MINISTEROF ROADS : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the present wording of sections 3( 1 ) , 12 ( 2) and 14(5 ) of Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 is such as apparently to preclude the admission to the Transkei Government Service of a Ciskeian who, because he is a member of the Xhosa-speaking national unit, is not as contemplated in the said sections a member of another Bantu national unit. As it never was the intention
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if the Chairman feels that there is no particularity then the
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Chairman can ask the hon. member to state to which section this amendment refers . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that?
MR. GUZANA : There is no need to amend the amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Chair man can ask him to amend his amendment . MR . GUZANA : No , not to amend it but to ask him to particularize . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How can he particularize without amending? MR. GUZANA : I am surprised that the hon. the Minister of Education should speak like that because even in a court of law particulars may be asked for.
another Bantu national unit of the Republic of South Africa as defined in the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act, 1959 , (Act No. 46 of 1959) may on the recommendation of the Commission and the approval of the Transkei Cabinet also be admitted to the Transkei Government Service as provided for Transkeian citizens in paragraph (1 ) of this section. " It is this proviso , Mr. Chairman, that we seek to retain with the following amendments :. . . I don't think it is necessary for me to read out what amendments we seek to bring in because they are in front of us on the order paper. Firstly , I should say that through these amendments we are trying to change the state of affairs whereby the appointment of persons to the Government Service seems to depend ultimately on the favour of the Cabinet, because we feel that the whole principle of making possible a Public Service Commission seeks to avoid such favours as have been vested in certain persons by a Cabinet ... THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are under a misapprehension. No appointments are referred to the Cabinet.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Particulars are furnished in writing.
MR. BUBU: We take it that the Public Service Commission is a body of men who are uncommitted politically and that they are appointed by the Cabinet because of this belief. We do not see the reason why their balanced influence should now be undermined .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How are they furnished ? MR. GUZANA: They can be furnished in writing or orally if it does not create any embarrassment to the other party. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This one does. If you like you can take this amendment to section 5 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No appointments are referred to the Cabinet . Don't mislead the House . MR. BUBU: If they have calmly considered the applications which have been received ...
MR. GUZANA : That is why he has to say that it refers to a particular section. The leave of the House is not required .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where is the section which says they are referred to the Cabinet ? You speak wildly.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is necessary.
MR. BUBU: ... .we feel that their recommendations should be untainted by politics .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall ask the hon. Mr. Bubu to ask leave ofthe House to amend his amendment immediately.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , I think the hon. member should stick to the provisions of this Act as they are . There is nothing in this section which says that the appointments of civil servants will be referred to the Cabinet.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We can still refuse him . MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I can see that the hon. the Chief Minister wants to instil fear into me and I want to assure him that he will not be successful unless he wants to convince me that he is an unreasonable man . Mr. Chairman, I want to crave your indulgence to allow me to show what section my amendment relates to. It should read: - " That the proviso to clause 1 be amended by deletion and the original proviso retained with the following amendments :MR .
MR. BUBU: The recommendations are sent to the Cabinet. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not at all . It only says that the appointment of persons who do not belong to the Xhosa national unit will be referred to the Cabinet. In other words , it refers only to Basutos in the Free State , Traansvaal and Natal . That is all. He is misleading the House when he says that the appointment of public servants is referred to the Cabinet. There is nothing in this section that says that. The Cabinet only comes into the picture when it concerns people who are non-Transkeian citizens . I would request the hon. member not to try and mislead the public outside and also the members of this House .
GUZANA : I second , Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ?
Agreed to. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I think it is necessary for me to draw the attention of the House to the original proviso which we seek to retain. It is found on page 4 of the Proclamation in the regulations and conditions of service , appointment and tenure of office , discipline , retirement and discharge of members of the Government Service of the Transkei and other matters relating thereto. The proviso reads as follows : "Provided that a person who is a member of
MR . BUBU : Mr. Chairman , we shall not allow the hon. the Chief Minister to limit our view of what the Government Service should be . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, we cannot deal with matters of policy here . We are dealing with the Bill at its committee stage and they must confine themselves to the clauses of the Bill . Matters of policy can be discussed during a motion of no confidence and they had that 268.
opportunity. He does not even know this thing. He must read section 11 of the regulations .
you are trying to bring multi- racialism in by the back door.
MR. BUBU: I move accordingly .
MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, this is not even a point of order . The section we are discussing now refers to the recommendation of the Commission. We say that the recommendation ofthe Commission should be approved of by the Minister, not by the Cabinet. The hon. the Chief Minister has just said that the question of Cabinet approval occurs only when it is a person who comes from outside the Transkei.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the Government cannot accept these amendments as they are intended to circumvent the Constitution of the Transkei under which this Government is constituted. In the first place I want to make it clear to the hon . members that the amendment which the Government has brought is intended to enable the Public Service Commission to employ the people of the Ciskei into the Government service of the Transkei. It is not necessary for the Commission in fact, it is not provided for in these rules that the Commission should make recommendations to the Cabinet in all appointments .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes . MR. BUBU: We have a feeling specifically on that point and that is why we are bringing up this amendment. That feeling is that where efficient service is being sought , no limitations must be placed on the Commission to get those services . In other words , we are trying to reject this insular outlook which is implied in this provision. If the Commission, on the basis of the applications it has received , feels that it can draw efficient services from a certain quarter , we feel that the Commission should be free to recommend to the Minister , not to the Cabinet. It must be remembered that sometimes the Commission may want services which may not be obtainable from within the Transkei or from within other Bantu national units . We feel that the Commssion therefore should be free to look further afield for the services which it seeks . ( Interjections) The priority is service . If the Transkei is intended to be a state , as the hon. Minister is making every endeavour to make it, then he must be prepared to concede that service must be obtained wherever we can get it and that the powers of the Commission should be untrammelled . Further , Mr. Chairman, our amendments refer to sub- section (1 ) of paragraph ( 3) , where it says the Transkei Government shall consist of Transkeian citizens . We have similar feelings in this connection, Mr. Chairman. To us on this side of the House service of a Government should be service of persons. It does not matter who those persons are , if they are going to carry out the work that is to be done . It is a fact , of course , which we all concede that firstly vacancies that occur in the Government Service will be offered first of all to the people who are immediately within the reach of the Government. That means straight away Transkeian citizens . But to provide in the law of the country that the Government service shall consist of Transkeians we feel is going too far, especially having regard to the fact that we are not able in the present stage to give employment to all our people and we are now seeking to introduce discrimination at a time when we are the victims of discrimination elsewhere . We believe that when we are laying the foundations of a state we should make every endeavour to avoid all forms of discrimination, consequently we have this amendment that , consequential upon the above amendments , section 3 ( 1) be amended as follows : - " That the words ' Transkeian citizens ' be deleted and the word 'persons ' be substituted therefor."
·
MR. K.M. GUZANA : If I may ask, why should it be necessary for a member of .... THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want you to be employed because you are from the Ciskei. MR. GUZANA : Why should it be necessary for a member of the Xhosa national unit to have his appointment recommended by the Cabinet ? Can you justify that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no such thing. MR. GUZANA : There is. It says that the appointment of a person who is not a Transkeian citizen, his application will have to be approved by the Cabinet. That is what the amendment says. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? The amendment is clear. MR. GUZANA : The amendment says " Provided that a person (other than a Transkeian citizen) .." The other person would then be a Ciskeian or from the Orange Free State or Basutoland . Now I am speaking of the person who comes from the Ciskei who is a member of the Xhosa national unit. There is the Tswana national unit, etc. I want to know why a person coming from the Ciskei has to have his appointment approved by the Cabinet. THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no such thing. You get the definition in the Proclamation. MR . GUZANA: Yes , you get the definition. There is the Xhosa , Sesutho, Tswana and so on. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now, the Xhosa includes a member of the Ciskei . MR . GUZANA : Yes , and why should that person have his application submitted to the Cabinet for approval ? That is the question. You see, according to the provision , if I understand it correctly, it is a person who is not a Transkeian citizen and the person from the Ciskei is not a Transkei citizen. He belongs to a national unit and the national units are the Xhosa national unit, the Tswana national unit, etc. That person will have to have his application submitted to the Cabinet for approval. Why do you require that from a member of the Xhosa national unit?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Don't you think you can refer to that when you come to that clause ? MR. BUBU : It is the same , Mr. Chairman. It is in the light of what I have said that we have brought in these amendments . We would appeal to the hon. the Chief Minister and his honourable brother not to feel uncomfortable when we bring these things in.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you mean the people of the Ciskei?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Not when
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They will be treated
MR. GUZANA : Yes .
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on a par with the Transkeian citizens .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Constitution says that the interests of the Transkei shall be promoted first before we have to promote the interests of other people . We have got to protect the interests of the Transkei sous first before we admit others .
MR . GUZANA : Yes , now why is it said that a person other than a Transkeian citizen , instead of providing that a person who is not a member of the Xhosa national unit? I press that point rather strongly because on Monday and Tuesday you were outside the Transkei and in the Ciskei .
MR. GUZANA : I hope they are not " Sons of the Transkei " . (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who told you that? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Cabinet controls policy and the Cabinet must be well aware of the people who are being admitted to its service from outside the country and no Minister alone can dictate the policy of the country.
MR. GUZANA: However, leave that , but I wonder if you could just explain that ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: What should I explain?
MR. GUZANA: The point is that in serving the interests of the Transkei citizen you get better men from outside the Transkei •
MR. GUZANA: Why a member of the Xhosa national unit who is in the Ciskei , and therefore not a Transkeian citizen, should have his application approved by the Cabinet, if you say that these members of the Xhosa national unit will be treated on an equal basis .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are aware of that. MR. GUZANA :
MR. P. SOBAHLE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, section 1 of the Proclamation says that the Transkei Government shall be manned by Transkei citizens : "The Transkei Government So Service shall consist of Transkei citizens " according to this section the Ciskeians at the present moment only form the Xhosa national unit but they are not Transkei citizens , hence in any recommendation by the Commission to the Cabinet the Cabinet must be well aware of the type of personnel that is being imported. MR. GUZANA : Isn't the Minister of the de-
• to render that service .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is why we have this provision. MR. GUZANA : But why have a Cabinet approving the appointments when the Minister who is a member of the Cabinet approves other appointments to the civil service ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Matters of policy have got to be referred to the Cabinet. MR. GUZANA: But this is not policy. Is it policy to appoint a person from the Ciskei and refer it to the Cabinet?
partment to which this man is appointed not going to be aware of the person who is coming to his department ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is policy to consider the interests of the Transkei citizens first.
MR. SOBAHLE : Yes , he is aware too. There is provision for this . I do not know why you are harping on it. Section 11 says that any appointment other than one who is not a Transkeian citizen should be referred straight to the Cabinet.
MR. BUBU: We have considered that, and it is sensible.
MR. GUZANA: We know that. The question is of a member of the Xhosa national unit who belongs to the same unit as the Transkeian citizen having his application approved by the Cabinet.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : In any event I have just said that the Government will not accept the amendment and the House can now decide . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall put the amendment to the vote .
MR. SOBAHLE : I have answered you. I have said that section 1 ofthis Proclamation provides that the Transkei Government Service shall consist of Transkeian citizens .
The amendment was lost by 34 votes to 54. Clause 1 of the Bill put and agreed to by 57 votes to 37.
MR. GUZANA : If you read the amendment it seeks to amend that too. The amendment by Mr. Bubu states ..
On Clause 2 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this section makes it incumbent on a member of the Public Service Commission to vacate his office as commissioner as soon as he is nominated as a candidate for election as a member of the Legislative Assembly. As there is no amendment , I take it that the House is agreed on it.
MR. SOBAHLE : I think that has been fully explained by the hon. the Chief Minister when he said we are not going to bring in multi- racialism here. MR. GUZANA: I suppose it is multi- racialism to bring in a Ciskeian or a man from the Free State who is not a member of another national unit. I wonder if the hon. the Chief Minister can explain this ?
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , we accept this amendment but I want to indicate that we feel that the Government has a guilty conscience because it allowed this irregular situation to go on until it found itself ..
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I can explain. It must be clear that in any country all over the world the interests of the citizens of that country have to be considered first , before outsiders are admitted to the public service . You have the Constitution .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There was no provision before.
MR. BUBU: That is nothing new.
MR . GUZANA : A sensible Government makes 270.
amendment proposed by the hon. member is ultra- vires the powers of this House . It seeks
provision for such an eventuality. It does not allow an eventuality to catch up with it and then, in trying to wipe its face , it says : We shall not be caught up in this again. (Laughter)
to make provisions in the public service regulations which are contrary to the Constitution Act of the Transkei . Ido not want to waste the time of this House by discussing nonsense .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Sit down. You are wasting time .
MR . GUZANA : May I ask, whilst you are on your feet, if the Cabinet approves the appointment of a European or a Chinese to a post, will that be consistent with the principles embodied in the Transkei Constitution Act?
MR. GUZANA : I am just pricking that guilty conscience before this goes through .
Clause 2 put and agreed to . On Clause 3
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It will be inconsistent.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move the adoption of clause 3. I have already made my motivation in respect of this section when I moved the adoption of clause 1.
MR. GUZANA : Now why is it necessary for approval of the Cabinet to be sought for a person of a national group other than Xhosa , instead of legislating once and for all ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is because we want to guard against anything which may be contrary to the provisions of the Transkei Constitution.
MR . L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this section I have an amendment which I wish to propose in view of the first amendment by the hon. Mr. Bubu : " That paragraph (a ) in section 3 seeking to be substituted by paragraph (a ) of subsection ( 2) of section 12 of the proclamation be deleted and the original section 12 be retained with the following amendments :(a) (b)
MR. GUZANA : So that if a Mosotho from the Free State applies you will allow him to be appointed ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: We will consider it. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , even in the Republic there are not enough men of learning to fill posts. They import scientists and other technicians from outside the Republic. The Transkei is in the same position and even more so.
Delete paragraph (a ) of subsection (2) of section 12 . Renumber paragraphs (b) and ( c ) of the original section 12 ( 2) (b) and (c) as (a) and (b). "
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We will borrow them . The subsection concerned reads thus : " No person shall be appointed permanently or transferred and appointed permanently under the provisions of sub- section ( 5 ) of section 14 , whether on probation or not, to any post in the fixed establishment of the Transkei Government Service unless such a person is (a) a Transkeian citizen or a member of another Bantu national unit of the Republic of South Africa as defined in the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act. " We see no point , Mr. Chairman , why the Transkei Government should confine its civil service to Transkeian citizens or only to Bantu national units , because even as it is now we have seconded officers from the Republican Government who are not of a Bantu national unit. Why should we then, seeing that there definitely is a need for highly qualified personnel in the Transkei , confine ourselves only to Bantu national units ? (Interjections ) Sub- section (b) of that section says a man must be of a good character and (c) goes on to say " and in the opinion of the Commission free from any mental or physical defect , disease or infirmity which would be likely to interfere with the proper carrying out of his duties or to render necessary his retirement from the Transkei Government Service before reaching a pensionable age. " Those are the two sub- sections that should really be considered , not the nationality of an individual employed in the civil service . It is for that reason that we on this side of the House seek to delete paragraph (a) of sub- section ( 2 ) and instead bring (b) to (a) and (c) to (b) . If we accept that a man should be employed on merit, not on colour , I think that amendment is quite reasonable . Thank you, Mr. Chairman .
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, we want a division.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY finished.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Evidence of this is that we are given seconded officials and these seconded officials are not directly under the Transkei Government. They do not get their instructions from the Ministers . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do they get them ? CHIEF NDAMASE: Among them there are those who are of the opinion that they can work hand in hand with us and work according to the likes of the Ministers in charge. Hon. members , what we want are people who are learned to whom we can give instructions and orders . I wonder if the hon. Ministers are satisfied with the position as it pertains now ? They are given seconded officials but they cannot give those officials instructions as they would like . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who instructs them ? CHIEF NDAMASE : This amendment seeks that all employees be directly under the Public Service Commission of the Transkei. They should get instructions from that Commission. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the amendment. The amendment was lost by 34 votes to 54. Clause 3 put and agreed to by 54 votes to 34.
CHAIRMAN: No , we have
MR. GUZANA : The tellers disagreed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , the
271 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: They did not dis-
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Division , division !
agree as far as I am concerned . MR. GUZANA: As far as you are concerned !
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Very well , then - division.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: They gave me the same figures.
Clause 3 put and agreed to by 57 votes to 35 after a division as follows :-
AYES .
NOES.
Chief Justice Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederich Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola. 2. C. S. Mda.
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr, Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota 2. R. Msengana
The debate was adjourned . hon. members , I have an amendment to move to this clause of the Bill. It is the amendment which stands in my name on the order paper. I move
AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the Government Service Amendment Act was resumed .
that this amendment be accepted before I proceed with the section . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I second , Mr. Chairman.
On Clause 4 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Probably the House
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will want to get my motivation on this amendment. The amendment will protect the pension rights of the public servant transferred from the Republican Government Service to the Transkei Public Service after the establishment of selfgovernment. That is to say, such persons will have the option to continue their membership of a pension fund administered by the Public Service Department of the Republic or to cease contributing to such fund and become a member of the Transkei Government Service Pension and Gratuity Fund . Now that is the object of my amendment to section 4 of the Bill . I do notthink , Mr. Chairman , it is necessary for me to motivate on section 4 of this Bill as it is clear. I move the adoption of that section as amended .
be applied here , Mr. Chairman. It is not sought to amend the same section.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?
Clause 4 put and agreed to by 47 votes to 31 .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The principle is the same . Multi- racialism is the object. MR. GUZANA: The amendment is different in wording from the previous amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is substantially the same . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I take it it is substantially the same and therefore I will put clause 4 as amended .
On Clause 5 MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman, there is an amendment to section 4 in my name and I move accordingly: " That section 4 seeking to amend section 14 ( 5 ) of the Proclamation be amended as follows :-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , before I deal with this clause I wish to put my amendment to that clause of the Bill . I would like to motivate on that amendment and to say to the House that it is owing to the shortage of manpower in the Republican Public Service that the retiring age was fixed at 65 for officers appointed on or before the 24th June , 1955. Officers appointed prior to the said date retain the privilege of retiring at the age of 60. Whilst sub-section (3) of section 15 of the Proclamation (No. 334 of 1963) prescribes the retirement age of the latter officers , the said sub- section is silent on the retirement age of those officers appointed in the Republican Public Service between the 24th June , 1955 , and the 11th December, 1963, officers who became officers of the Transkei Government Service as from the latter date . Now, in the absence of any specific provision to the contrary these officers will in effect now have to retire on attaining the age of 60 years in terms of the provisions of section 15 (1 ) of the Proclamation. As it never was the intention to change the retiring ages of the Republican officials transferred to the Transkei Government Service , it is necessary that the Bill be amended as proposed by me . I move that the amendment to this section be accepted by the House.
(i) All the words after the word " person" to the word " and " in the third line be deleted; (ii ) All the words after the word "commission" to the word " cabinet " be deleted and the following words substituted therefor "to the Minister " . Mr. Chairman, this section would therefore read as follows : " Any person who holds a pensionable appointment under the Government of the Republic , including the South African Railways and Harbours Administration , may with the consent and on the recommendation of the Commission to the Minister be transferred to any post in the Transkei. " This amendment is more or less on the same lines as the amendment that was moved before.
-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why talk on it then? Just move it and sit down. MR . JAFTA: We did put it with the object that we get the best out of the Commission. In fact there is not much for me to say because it has already been discussed by previous speakers and the only thing we want to draw attention to is that the work should be done supremely well . The gist of these amendments is that the word "person" should be included , which will include everybody who is capable of doing the work. As I have said , there is not much to say because it has already been made clear. Thank you, Mr. Chairman .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, since we have not seen that amendment what is going to happen? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You saw it. It is on the order paper. In moving section 5 of this Bill, Mr. Chairman , I wish to motivate and say that when provision was made in sub- section 15 (2) of Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 for the retiring age of 60 years for officers in the Transkei Government Service , the existing rights ofthose members of the Transkeian Territorial Authority and the Republican public service who were transferred to the Transkei Government Service had to be entrenched as regards the officers of the Transkeian Territorial Authority. It was unfortunately not realised at the time that provision already existed in the Proclamation (that is , Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 ) in regard to their retiring age. There is consequently a conflict now between section 15 and rule 12 respectively of those Proclamations . Rule 12 of Proclamation 143 of 1921 stipulates , inter alia , that persons holding pensionable posts in the Transkeian Territorial Authority shall have the right to retire on attaining the age of 63, whereas section 15 (2) of Proclamation 334 of 1963 stipu-
MR. C. M. NDAMASE : I second , Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the Government is not prepared to accept the amendment . We are quite aware of their frivolous attempt to infiltrate their multi-racial policy into the Public Service of the Transkei and we are just rejecting the amendment with the contempt it deserves . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I would like to draw the attention of the House to rule 112 which reads as follows : " No new clause or amendment shall be allowed which is substantially the same as one already negatived . " So apparently this amendment by the hon. Mr. Jafta falls away . MR. GUZANA : I do not see how that rule can
273.
lates that an officer transferred from the Transkeian Territorial Authority to the Transkei Government Service shall have the right to retire on attaining the age of 65 years . Now, section 5 of this Bill is intended to solve this conflict that is , section 5 (a) of sub- section (2 ) . Now sub-clauses (a) (i) and (b) of clause 5 only embody consequential amendments to the existing subsections 15 (1) and 15 ( 3) of Proclamation 334 of 1963. I have no doubt that the House will accept this amendment as all the attorneys on this side of the House went thoroughly into these regulations. ( Laughter) Fortunately there is no notice of amendment from the Opposition benches . I move the adoption of this section as amended .
third reading will be on Friday, 26th May, 1967 .
Clause 5 as amended put and agreed to.
THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , to which an amendment was moved by the hon. the Minister of Education. I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted should be retained .
PAYMENT OF SUM REPRESENTING INDIRECT TAXATION INTO TRANSKEI REVENUE FUND THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , we shall now return to Motion 44 by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. He has already replied . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I had not yet finished my reply. The lights went out before I had finished . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had finished , hon. member. I shall now put the question.
Clause 6 put and agreed to. The whole Bill as amended put and agreed to. House Resumed
The words proposed to be deleted were deleted by 54 votes to 35.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I beg to report that the Bill to amend Proclamation R.334 of 1963 has been accepted by the House with certain amendments . THE
The words proposed to be substituted were agreed to by 58 votes to 35 after a division as follows :-
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the
AYES .
NOES .
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Stanford Bacela Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Temba Mazwi Mr. Joel Ndabankulu Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Walter Mkatali Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers :
274.
1. R. Msengana. 2. K.G. Nota .
Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingaphantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. K. Ntola . 2. C.S. Mda . therefore that we should not hurry such matters. The hon. member seems to be in too much of a hurry. Another point I wish to touch upon is that the Whites have people who are quite capable of planning and they have already started in some parts to employ Africans in different posts to prepare them for the day when they will be fit to carry on their own administration in these towns. Unfortunately, one such person who was given a post proved himself to be unfit for that post, but because the members on the particular board were sympathetic they again employed another Bantu. Such people for whom such opportunities are given should prove themselves suitable and only then will we have suitable people to whom to hand over the administration. Not only that, but there should be a large number of people who own properties in these towns.
The motion as amended : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should convey its gratitude to the Republican Government for making substantial annual grants from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the Transkeian Revenue Fund " was carried by 58 votes to 35. ELECTION OF AFRICAN MEMBERS TO VILLAGE MANAGEMENT BOARDS The debate was resumed . MR . M.H. CANCA : Mr. Chairman, and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he opposed the original motion by the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija . The hon. Minister made it clear that provision already exists in the Transkei Constitution for a matter ofthis nature - namely, that when the time is opportune Bantu councillors will form their own councils in the areas zoned for their occupation . We do not refute the fact that people do wish to be members of these councils but they lose sight of the fact that at present there are more European-owned properties in the areas now zoned Black . The hon. mover mentioned commonages in these zoned towns or villages which are in the Black zones and he stated that stock-owners are not allowed to graze their stock on such commonages . We have encountered this in some parts where people in the rural areas want to go and graze their stock on the commonages because they happen to have been zoned Black. The fact that these paddocks have been zoned Black does not enable people who live in the rural areas to claim any right to graze their stock thereon . This is a right exclusively for people who live in the urban areas . Similarly, in those areas which have been zoned Black it does not mean that the properties which are in those areas there have now become their properties . What the hon. member others should do is to encourage the Bantu people to buy these White -owned properties for themselves , then when there are only a few properties still owned by Whites in those areas can it be said that these councils should be Black. I think as matters stand now we should try and co-operate and understand the efforts of Whites on these councils . In the main these Whites are intelligent and sympathetic.
CHIEF H. ZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy to speak after the hon. member who says he lives in a town . Our kinsmen who live in towns have experienced many difficulties even though the Government of the Transkei handed over all the towns in the Transkei to the Europeans . When the zoning committee went round the people were given some hope that they would settle in the zoned areas and own property there. One notes when travelling through the Transkei , and especially at Butterworth, that the parts which were zoned Black are occupied mainly by Europeans and that is why we advocate that Bantu people should be represented by Bantu on the councils . It is customary for the European members ofa town council to hold their meeting in the evenings when the Bantu people who own properties do not know of such meetings . Even though the Ministers went round telling people there were properties available for ownership in these towns , prospective buyers of these properties did arrive soon after the Government party had promised the people they could buy these properties , but it was difficult for these prospective buyers to meet the European members of the councils referred to. Likewise the Bantu people who own stock in these municipal areas are never informed of the stock rates that will be levied . They just find that a levy of so much has been imposed for each beast and if you go into the municipal locations where the Bantu people live , you often find buckets from their W.C.s standing in the streets right through the day. This proves that the Bantu people have no representatives on the councils to look after the health of these locations. It proves further that when the Transkei Government went round telling the people they were zoning the towns for Bantu ownership it was not the Transkei Government but the Republican Government that did it. If the Bantu people who live in these locations had direct representatives on the council such things as I have mentioned of buckets standing in the streets all day would not occur . ( Interjections ) Mr. Chairman , to go further there should be a provision in the Transkei
OP POSITION MEMBERS : That's right.
MR . CANCA : I want to remind you of your own policy that if a person is suitable for a certain position he should be given that position . The administration at present is something that is intelligible only to Whites . I am talking from personal experience , being one of those who live in an urban area. Whenever a matter concerns the population of a rural town that matter is brought to the notice of the rate-payers of the area and every rate -payer has a right to express his opinion on such matter. It is only right 275.
give you votes when the African are so much in the majority? The Whites know perfectly well that if they were allowed, the Africans would take over the whole country. (Interjections )
Constitution that in places like Butterworth there sould be a representative of the Bantu people on the council , no matter how few there are who own property in the town. In these towns , although an area for the Bantu people has been set aside , the people there are constantly being arrested because they have no direct representative on the council. It is at this time , when the Transkei Government has promised that there would be areas specially zoned for them , that they are giving more and more trouble. It is for these reasons that we bring this motion. Ifyou go past the ranks you will find police cautioning people even though they are not molesting anyone . (Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. You are letting the cat out of the bag.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order. You are making too much noise. MR. SIHELE : That is why there is separate development, so that you can develop in your own way. (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, I am trying to show that we Africans should progress in our development and reach the stars. By saying that I mean that we as Bantu should develop and reach the highest positions independently of any other race , and the Government has given us that opportunity. Why must you invite the Europeans to come to our side when they did not invite us to join them? (Interjections) Try and talk intelligently so that we can answer you. If the Europeans are aware that we are closing the channels , they should have invited us first. Has the hon. Mr. Majija been asked by the Europeans for assistance ? Have the Europeans ever said : All right, gentlemen , we shall refer this to your Parliament? We have closed the channels . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. CHIEF ZULU: If they had representatives on the councils they would have someone to tell them how to carry on their activities . For those reasons I appeal to members onthe Government side to help us obtain direct representation on municipal councils. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this motion by the hon. member for Engcobo is an old story that has been repeated many times . They just say this because they want multi-racialism and I am prepared to reply to his motion in the same manner that he has presented it. It will be noted that this side of the House is totally against the principle of multi-racialism . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Never mind these interjections and suggestions , hon. member. Just stick to the motion. MR. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman , I want to elaborate on the question of zoning because I can see they cannot understand . It does not mean that after zoning the Africans can just walk into the Black zoned area . Zoning means you are free now to buy properties in the area zoned for the Blacks . It has not been stated that you can simply walk in and claim the properties owned by Europeans in the zoned areas. If you think that you are going astray. How can you clamour then to be councillors when you have not purchased those properties ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. SIHELE : They are talking all the time and they don't want to listen. I am trying to show that I am opposing this multi- racialism and they insist that I am against this zoning. Even their leader is on their side . I was expecting him to show them the road they should follow but I expected this because I met him and he appeared to have sores under his armpits . On Christmas day he did not want to give way to the Minister of Religion in his pulpit in church. (Laughter and interjections )
MR. DIKO: And if you are patient, then what happens ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
MR. SIHELE : I will answer that question . It is simple . What is to stop me , after purchasing this property, from telling them that I own the property and must be given a say. (Interjections) The motion does not say that. It says that we should ask to be councillors before having purchased properties simply because the towns have been zoned. What stupid ideas from educated men! I did not expect such talk from a wise Mr. Chairman , I think I have explained man. fully about this zoning and as a result I want to sit down before the expiry of my time because I don't know what they do not understand .
MR. SIHELE : That day it was the Reverend's plan to preach. As a result of the sores under his armpits he did not give way to the Minister . One wants to know what has caused these sores . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member, I think you should stick to the motion. I don't like your remarks .
MR. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman , I was just trying to stop the noise . I appreciate that you have stopped it for me , Mr. Chairman. The law of the country which is responsible for our being here is that the African people should be separated from the Whites and that is why the White people are separate when they do things in the towns in their own area. You are talking about work and this motion does not embody that. The motion seeks that amongst the councillors there should be African councillors and that is contrary to the laws of the country and it is against the Transkei Government principles that we should come together. (Interjections)
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to add to what has been said by the hon. Mr. Majija in respect of his motion to the effect that in the zoned areas the Africans who own properties must have a right to elect members to the town council . We are not concerned with the number of people and the fact that they might be few. We are merely referring to those people who already have purchased properties in these zoned areas. It is a great pity that the Transkei people should be so unfortunate that the leaders of the Government party, which the people look up to as being a party which should help them , is actually a party which is suppressing them , especially when the Government
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. SIHELE : Do you think the White people are stupid and that they would mix with you and 276.
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party turns down the sensible motions and suggestions coming from the Opposition party which is representative of the opinions of the electorate . I paid close attention to the remarks by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Baboons. (Laughter) Indeed the foolish speech he made very well suited him as it would have suited the baboons of which he is minister , when he said that Proclamation R.336 was quite a good Proclamation , when the Opposition suggests that the Proclamation be amended so that the Bantu people can elect members to the councils just as the Europeans do. The reason why we brought this motion is because the Bantu people are oppressed by the Afrikaners in towns and they have nobody to speak on their behalf. We have been oppressed for a long time by these Afrikaners and when we were given selfgovernment in the Transkei we hoped we would be free ofthis oppression , but most unfortunately the very leaders that we have in the Transkei are suppressing the people even more than the Afrikaans people did. It is a great pity, Mr. Chairman , because it is our view that these hon. Ministers will not be returned to this House next election . ( Interjections ) I do not know what they will do when the Opposition takes over the Government after the next elections . The hon. Mr. Sihele says that the Europeans are fewer than the Bantu people and on that account they are afraid they will be swamped by the Bantu people on the councils . I shall not refer to some of the foolish things he mentioned . All that the Opposition stands for is that the people be given the right to elect their own representatives , not that they be represented by the people elected by European members only. The Bantu people own properties and stock but they have no say as regards the grazing rights of stock on the commonages. Further , they advocate the reduction of stock owned by people residing in municipal areas. (Interjections ) Should a person own more than ten head of stock he is asked to pay 25 cents a beast over that number. This is all because there are no Africans to represent their own people in the councils of these towns . Would the Transkei Government show sympathy with the people of the Transkei in this regard ?
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH Chief Vulindlela Mfengwana Matanzima was sworn in as a member of the Legislative Assembly by the Chairman. TRANSKEIAN SERVICE GOVERNMENT AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Government service Amendment Bill be read a third time , as amended. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time . TRANSKEI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Labour Laws Amendment Bill and in view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 , I also table a recommendation by the hon. the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 that the Bill be considered by the Assembly. I move that the Bill be now read a first time . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I second .
Agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You have nothing to say. Sit down.
The Bill was read a first time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, the second reading will take place on Monday, 29th May, or So soon thereafter.
MR. KUTU: The hon . the Minister of Education says I have nothing more to say. This Government is aiming at one thing, the suppression of the people and the hon . Minister has used a great amount of the money of the Transkei when he spent nights in out of the way places . (Interjections )
ELECTION OF AFRICAN MEMBERS TO VILLAGE MANAGEMENT BOARDS The debate was resumed .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the mover to reply to the debate.
MR. KUTU : In his touring he did not get any support from the people. Now that they are aware that the people follow the Opposition members they deny the members of the Opposition the privilege of holding public meetings. I do not know how they regard this because the people in the Reserves know very well that the Government Party are their suppressors . They also know that the Democratic Party represents the views of the people and that their aim is to help the people to live happily. (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman , I wish they would change their view in this matter .
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in replying to the debate on this motion I shall not refer much to the speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, for what he said was emptiness . According to this motion I move that Bantu councillors be elected . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You said that before. You must reply now. MR . MAJIJA : I have already laid down the reasons which urged me to move this motion. I have referred to a number of things which should be put right . For example , if you were to go to Ncambedlana you would find the streets there in a disgraceful condition and you will
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 26th May, 1967.
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found the Zulus . In saying this I am trying to show you that you do not know which part of the land belongs to you. You only know the Transkei. (Interjections )
find the same conditions in the municipal location. (Interjections) The people like to be represented by their own people on these town councils. There is a law to that effect , but unfortunately it is not operating. Among your reasons you say that the Bantu rate -payers are very few.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MAJIJA : We on this side of the House maintain that we should live together with the White people and share the fruits of our labours . (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is precisely why you cannot have a member. You are too few. MR. MAJIJA: The object of zoning these white areas was to try and afford the people the opportunity to have properties and to be represented on the councils . This was said by the Government Party as they moved round preaching to the people about this policy. The Opposition, however, advocated multi-racialism . ( Interjections ) However , you stated that separate development afforded the Bantu people opportunities . The hon. member representing Emigrant Tembuland said that separate development ensured White supremacy and as the speaker was representative of Emigrant Tembuland we took it this was the view of the Chief Minister himself. ( Interjections ) If the representative of the Chief Minister makes a statement then it means the Chief Minister concurs . He maintains that because the European people are so few in this country it would be possible to swamp them in a little while . I have already said that the policy of separate development is calculated to keep the White man in power for all time . ( Interjections ) I can well recall the words spoken by the hon. the Minister of Education some twenty years ago when he maintained that the time had come for the Bantu people to represent themselves . We were at a meeting in Queenstown. I am surprised because he now votes to say that the time has not arrived yet; and the hon . the Chief Minister , because he believed the time had come , thought he should go direct and be in the Republican Parliament in Cape Town and he asked someone to represent him in the T.T.A. He said he would not be a member of these dummy institutions which were only advisory. (Laughter) As I see it we are in a dummy government now. (Interjections) This side of the House advocates that in all municipal councils the Bantu people must be represented by the Bantu themselves. There are many boards in the Transkei on which we are not represented on the tender board which is responsible for school buildings , and likewise on the health board. Similarly, there is no representative in the BIC. The Government, however, maintains that we have not sufficient properties to warrant direct representation by the Bantu people on these councils. How shall the people acquire these properties seeing that you don't pay them a sufficient wage to enable them to buy properties ? The Xhosa Development Corporation has no Bantu to represent the people among its members. I would like the Government to take particular note that the promises they made to the people about being able to acquire properties were merely catch promises. You tell the people that when the time is ripe they will elect their own councillors , but when will that time come? ( Interjections ) Those who are in the know today know that a big percentage of the land is given to the Europeans in this country and only 12.9 per cent has been handed over to the Bantu people. 87.1 per cent is earmarked for the Europeans. (Interjections ) When the Voortrekkers left this part of the country and went to the Vaal River they found the country inhabited by the Bantu. When they went across the Vaal they found the land was inhabited by the Matabele , and when they went across the Drakensberg they
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , please behave yourselves . We cannot hear the speaker . MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , I don't think you can help this talkative group on the Government side. We on this side of the House maintain that the land belongs to us all , both White and Black. What operates on the Government side is the slave mentality , which means that the land does not belong to them. It would not help even if I were to speak for a long time because your slave mentality will persuade you always to say you want to remain slaves . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MAJIJA : With these words , Mr. Chairman, I close the debate . I thank you. THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. member for Dalindyebo region , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I shall put the question that the words proposed to be omitted should be retained. The words proposed to be omitted were deleted by 36 votes to 55. The words proposed to be substituted were agreed to by 57 votes to 36 . The motion as amended was carried by 57 votes to 36 . COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO CUSTOMS , CONVENTIONS , ETC. MR . T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a commission representative of: (a) A cross - section of the citizens of the Transkei ; (b) Other interested persons or organised bodies such as the churches ; (c) Persons possessing expert opinion who may thus be co - opted; (i) to conduct an extensive inquiry, by way of collecting and collating evidence , into the vital question of sexual morals and other related matters obtaining amongst the people of the Transkei to the end : (a) that customs , conventions , taboos , deterrents , fines etc. that have a bearing thereon may be brought into line with modern thought and situation ; (b) that current trends towards moral degeneracy may be more adequately arrested; (ii) that a report upon the findings of the Commission may be submitted for consideration to the 1968 Session of the Assembly or so soon thereafter" . I think, Mr. Chairman , I should at the outset point out that the motion before us is one that
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general admission that no longer can we pride ourselves in that regard. It will also be a matter of general admission that our morals have, to a very large extent, become a matter of public discussion . Evidence of this cannot be very far to seek. To give an example, because I am here addressing you, Mr. Chairman, and the hon. members of this House , allow me to mention most reluctantly that it has nowbecome a feature of the day that our womenfolk are fast becoming a society of unmarried mothers .
does not in any way offend our political susceptibilities . It is a motion of general importance amongst us as a people in the Transkei . I would therefore, in the circumstances appeal to the members of this House to look at this motion with calmness , with honesty and sincerity so that it may be given the attention that it really deserves. Our participation in the discussion and in the general consideration of it should be entirely above party politics , especially in view of the fact that it relates to a matter that is really very delicate - a matter which affects all the people in the Transkei. I am confident that when I speak on this motion I am speaking on behalf of all the people in the Transkei , even though perhaps I may have been asked to raise it by people who come from beyond my area. When we look at the motion we shall find that it seeks to get this Assembly to consider the advisability and the practicability of appointing a commission; that the commission should inquire into a state of affairs that is daily becoming a menace in the Transkei ; and that in conducting this inquiry the commission should meet the people in the Transkei , people who are representative of all levels of society in the Transkei . If, therefore , the commission seeks to get the views of all people , irrespective of their station, if those people should feel they have some evidence to give about the matter of the inquiry , the motion further envisages that there may be other people who may be interested in the subject although they may not normally be regarded as belonging to the Transkei - people who have organised themselves in some way or another. An example of this is made of the churches and in order that this work may be successful the motion further suggests that other persons may be attracted into the work of conducting an inquiry , who may generally be known to possess expert knowledge on the subject of the inquiry. Those people might be found perhaps within the borders of the Transkei , or they may be found outside the Transkei . From this it can be seen right from the beginning that the subject is a very broad one. Another point I want to emphasize is the fact that this work is being entrusted to a commission because it is a subject that cannot become properly a subject of public debate. It is a subject therefore that would probably be discussed behind closed doors sometimes , because it involves delicate matters that concern us very closely, and no sensible person would like that we should be subjected to public scrutiny and public discussion. It seeks further, Mr. Chairman, that the commission should collect the evidence and collate it , and finally that the commission should draw a report on its findings , and that such a report should be submitted for the consideration of this Legislative Assembly in its 1968 session or as soon thereafter as possible. I should say that from what I have said about the delicate nature of the subject that I sould like to appeal to members not to make any suggestions which tend to undermine the profound nature of this subject.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You cannot stop that by legislation.ad of MR. BUBU : That, we shall all concede , is a very unpleasant state of affairs . No one, I am quite sure, would say there should be no sexual relationships of a type . That has always been, Mr. Chairman. It is something that is compatible with the deep urges of human nature . Our business is to bring balance to bear upon this thing, and I wish to say very respectfully that the intention of this motion is to seek that balance . In order that that should be achieved a study of the position through a commission is being suggested - a commission that is going to carry out its work under Government auspices. I think in that way it should be possible to arrive at some satisfactory solution of the problem which is known to us all. I do not think it is really necessary for me to comment on the various little things that have been said here, because that would really mean that I take it that I am the only one who can understand what is going on. I am confident that everyone is aware of the situation and that the feelings expressed through this motion can easily reverberate through us all. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the following amendment: - That all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted and be substituted by the following:"there is nothing necessitating the appointment of such a commission by the Government. " Mr. Chairman, in the first place I am very thankful that a matter of this nature should be brought before the Assembly by an intelligent person who framed his motion in a proper manner. We also, as a Government , are perturbed about the morals of our people , yet another section - the educated section - is also perturbed by certain customs and conventions . However , be that as it may, this is not something which can be brought before this Assembly. The mover has already requested that this matter be placed above party political considerations and I agree with him in that respect. I will also request those who are going to speak to this motion to treat it with the propriety it deserves . The mover has said he is not going into details about his motion, but he pin- pointed certain morals that have degenerated among our people. He mentioned that long ago our people were complimented on their moral standard but when they came into contact with other races their morals deteriorated and one may well ask who is going to raise the standard of morals , seeing that we are now constantly in contact with other races . Can any commission do so , or will the people themselves raise their own standard by proper behaviour? What I want to say is that even if the Government appointed a commission and even if its report were tabled before the 1968 session that will not remedy the problem of moral dege-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are listening. We have not made any. MR. BUBU: The subject, as is mentioned in the motion, is one of sexual morals . From time immemorial , I should say, it was a matter of pride among our people that our morals were of a very high standard, and even at the time when the other races came here they expressed , as is to be found in the records of the past, high praise for the high standard of our morals . But if regard is to be had to what has happened during the past, say, 25 years , it will be a matter of 279.
neracy. There are many laws which have been enacted, such as the Immorality Act , which have not remedied the situation. Things are still going on in the same way as before . I think what the hon. mover should have suggested is that the tribal authorities or the various tribes should come together, because their customs and conventions are not the same , and consider this moral degeneracy . If the Government appointed this commission its membership might consist of a Baca, a Mosotho and so on. The commission would perhaps go and consider the customs and various taboos of the Bacas , for instance , and it may well be that the Bacas do not want the presence of a Mosotho when their customs are discussed and so also with the other tribes . I think the great trouble is illiteracy among our people. If they could only be taught that some of their customs and conventions are outdated I think their moral standard would once more rise , but I am not suggesting that such a thing could be undertaken by a commission. If the hon. Mr. Bubu, who comes from Eastern Pondoland, has noticed something amiss in his area as an educated man , and one who is against moral degeneracy it is up to him to consult with his paramount chief and other chiefs to consider the matter, and so with the other tribes of the country. I will also not go deeply into the matter, just as the hon. mover has not. It is difficult to understand what he really wants in this motion, except for his mention of moral degeneracy on which I myself agree with him that the standard has dropped among our people , but I will not suggest that a commission will be able to raise the moral standard . I will also ask those members who take part in this discussion not to make fun of it. Had I been the mover I would have suggested that this matter be referred to a select committee.
ple I shall refer to the " lobola " custom . Now in true African style messengers who seek on behalf of a paramour the hand of a young lady assent to the prospective in- laws . Now, according to African conventions these people may well be delayed and put through many indignities before they are even asked where they come from. They may be asked what they have been eating on the way to this place , and this process may go on to: "Will you please open our mouths ?" - to put it literally. Now are these procedures and delays suitable to our modern society, which tends to be fast, and are not we probably of a passing generation feeling offended when our daughters and sons obtain a special marriage licence to get married? Are we not insisting on a very long marriage ceremony which today leaves the father- in-law in debt to the tune of R400 , R500 or R600 ? Also , in view of the obsession which is plaguing the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry about rehabilitation , am I to pay " lobola " in so many head of cattle or in rands and cents ? Is this vicarious responsibility of the father for the torts of the inmates of his kraal , according to Native law and custom, fair to the father of an irresponsible boy who brings trouble almost every day to the father ? These are the avenues of exploration which will be followed by this commission and then the findings may subsequently become the subject of legislation . The hon. the Minister of the Interior has said that the commission may be made up of a membership coming from different tribes in the Transkei and that resentment may be caused when a member of the one tribe seeks to inquire into the traditions and taboos of another tribe . Now that is really a matter of administration , for the commission may well be made up of similar commissions dealing with the affairs of each tribe made up of members of that tribe . In order to see how wide this subject is , may I refer to the Natal code and how essential it is that we ourselves should take a positive step in the direction indicated by this motion. In terms of the Natal code the dowry of a girl is fixed and registered ; the customary union is registered; and also the child born of that union. Even miscarriages are registered so that everything is regularized by regulation made under that Natal code . We have no similar legislation applied in the Transkei and if such a law could be passed, based on the findings of the commission which it is sought to be established , then probably the speaker would have less civil work in court than he has at the moment and could tend more to educate the Government on the
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the amendment. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is difficult for anyone to remain unmoved when a matter of this nature is brought before this House for consideration , especially because the protection and maintenance of a racial group depends on the moral standard of that racial group. The mover has stressed the matter of sexual morals and has given the example of the many unmarried mothers that we see carrying babies , but if we have to put this into its proper perspective we must also include the runaway fathers of these children and if we think we are going to survive we must not evade our responsibility on these very delicate matters . We must face the issue as to whether or not the moral codes that govern the relationships between the sexes can still be maintained in our present world. Do those social inhibitions which maintained the high moral standard still have the power of restraint in our society as they do in primitive society ? Does the "intonjane " ceremony serve any purpose in our present society? Does the convention of a newly married wife that she should go behind the huts at her new kraal serve any purpose in this modern world? Does it serve any purpose that she should not go into the cattle kraal to get dung and smear the floor ? Is the "twala" fine sufficiently punitive to deter the tendency for young men to " twala " young girls ? Is the fine paid for seduction and pregnancy a deterrent or is it being commercialized ? Now these are the matters which the commission should look into , examine and make recommendations on and its recommendations may well be the basis of subsequent legislation . Just to give an exam-
policy of multi- racialism . ( Laughter) I think we all agree that there is something wrong and that something should be done to correct the wrong. If we are in this House as fathers of children , brothers of sisters , sisters of brothers , then we know that there is urgent need for this matter to be tackled . I will ask the hon . the Minister of the Interior to withdraw his amendment because we are ad idem on the sentiments expressed and I think we should agree on the modus operandi . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The question is the creation of a commission by the Government.
MR . GUZANA: If the Government creates the commission, does that cause any embarrassment to the Government? Does the information obtained by such a commission not become immediately and readily available to the Government? Such a commission will require financial assistance to travel round , to employ secretaries , to draw up documents , to take evidence , and it is the 280.
Government which can finance it in the various aspects of its activities . That is why we feel that it is the Government which should sponsor this commission, rather than private individuals who cannot have the facilities to make their work successful . I wholly support the motion . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Amendment Bill. I wish, at the outset , to state very emphatically that this is purely an enabling measure , and that it does not in itself seek to impose any fee or levy from any specified date . This fact will become clearer from what follows . Some time ago , the question arose as to whether employers , principally in the Republic , should not be required to pay a fee in respect of each and every Transkeian labourer recruited for employment by them . After careful consideration, it was then decided that it would be to the detriment of the Transkei to impose such a fee on its own as employers would naturally prefer to obtain their labour requirements from other areas where no such fee was payable . In other words , the fee would have to be applied concurrently on a much wider basis than just in the Transkei if it was to achieve its object. The matter was accordingly shelved for the time being. The Department of Bantu Administration and Development has now notified my Department that it intends introducing enabling legislation by way of proclamation which will confer powers on tribal authorities in the Republic to impose , by subsequent notice and within their individual discretion , an attestation fee in respect of labour recruited by them for employers in their own and other areas . The revenue so derived will be placed to the credit of the relative tribal authority accounts . Various aspects of the matter are still being investigated and it is not yet possible to give more details of how the scheme will be introduced beyond the boundaries of the Transkei . It is furthermore not yet known as from what date the provisions of the Republican regulations will become operative , or what the precise amount of the fee will be. It is however deemed advisable that the Transkei Government should be in a position also to impose a fee if and when circumstances merit this being done . It will now be clear from the foregoing why the sole object of the present Bill is merely to provide enabling legislation at this stage for the imposition by subsequent regulation, at an appropriate time , of an attestation fee to be paid by employers , whether in the Transkei or the Republic , in respect of Transkeian labour obtained by them on attested contracts of employment . It is realised that the Bill entrusts the Ministers concerned with legislative powers , but such a course is unavoidable in this case as the Assembly may be in recess just at the time when opportune action is necessary in connection with the imposition of an attestation fee to coincide with similar action in the Republic. This does not necessarily mean of course that such a fee will be imposed in the Transkei . The position will be closely watched and appropriate steps will be taken only after full consultation with the Cabinet and in a manner that will best serve the interests of the Transkei . The impression should not be gained from this that the Transkei is in any way being influenced by the Republic in the matter. The fact is that there is a close interrelation between the two economies , and it is to the advantage of the Transkei to keep its hand constantly on the pulse of economic developments in the Republic , and to act either unilaterally or in liaison with the Republic in such matters whenever necessary , either to safeguard or benefit its own economy. If, as I have mentioned , the Transkei Government decides to impose an attestation fee under the enabling powers of the present legislation , the revenue so derived will be paid into the Transkeian Revenue Fund and thereafter channelled to tribal authorities in the usual manner. The extent of the monetary benefit at the rate of, say, R1 per contract can
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with respect , we have before this House an important motion that we wish to be investigated and thoroughly discussed and we would like to handle this motion with respect and due care so that we do not distort it out of its proper meaning . The hon. the Minister of the Interior, together with the mover of the motion, have discussed with me privately as to whether it would be possible to have a select committee and we felt we should support this suggestion from him . Unfortunately I see he is not here at the moment , but I would like to ask him respectfully to withdraw his amendment so that this motion could be handed to the select committee in the form and manner in which it is recorded on the order paper. However , I am a little bit disappointed because the hon. Minister is not present. The mover of the motion had accepted the suggestion because we were aware of the sensitiveness and delicacy of this motion. Ipass this idea to you , therefore , Sir . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was absent during the debate on this motion but I note that there was no contention on the principle of the motion itself. The only difference of opinion lies in what should be the solution. However , where I disagree is in the suggestion that the Government party withdraw its amendment in favour of the matter being referred to a select committee . If the House agrees that a select committee be appointed the matter could be left as it is , and upon the select committee submitting its findings a decision can be arrived at. THE CHAIRMAN : As the mover of the amendment is at present not here I think we shall leave this matter until he returns . At this stage I think I must adjourn the Assembly as the electric power has failed again.
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 29th May , 1967 . MONDAY , 29TH MAY , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day taken as read and confirmed.
were
TRANSKEI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , honourable paramount chiefs and honourable members , I rise today to move the second reading of the Transkei Labour Laws
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ment of the Interior encouraging the formation of workers ' unions or labour organisation which will have up-to-date information on all types of jobs available to the Transkeian labourer who seeks to go out into the Republic , and such labour organisations are also in a position to bargain with the prospective employer for higher wages to be paid to the labourer. Properly organised, these unions can alleviate the hardship that sometimes meets the raw recruit who gets into an urban area and becomes a victim of evil influences before he is aware of his own position in that complex society. Whilst I make these comments I am not condoning the migratory system of labour , nor am I condoning the fact that people have to go outside the Transkei under contract. I make these remarks to make the best out of a bad situation . I do hope , therefore, that the hon. the Minister of the Interior will give these points some immediate attention because this is the only export that he can handle coming out of the Transkei , although it is an export that leaves his hands soiled. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is quite evident from the speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior that this new Bill is an enabling measure . He says that the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development may promulgate a proclamation and I am confused on this point , Sir. There is no provision in this Bill, whereas in the Constitution of the Transkei , under section 40 ( 2) (a) it says that the State President may, on the presentation to him of a Bill , declare that he assents thereto or refer it back to the Legislative Assembly for further consideration in the light of such further information and advice as may be given. Where a bill is assented to by the State President one of the bills shall be signed by him. Section 41 deals with the position when the bill has been passed. As soon as it is gazetted it comes into operation unless it is stated in the bill when the provisions will come into effect. My worry is that there is no provision in this Bill stating the date when its provisions will come into operation , as the hon. the Minister of the Interior stated that the Bill is still provisional in order to enable him to operate on it when the Minister of Bantu Administration and Devlopment promulgates a proclamation in connection with labour inthe Republic. I would like to know from the hon. Minister when and how this will work. The position is that the Minister of Bantu Administration may promulgate a proclamation next year when this Bill may have been passed by the State President. I would like that point to be explained , please , Mr. Chairman.
be gauged by the fact that well over 100,000 labour contracts are attested in the Transkei each year. Apart from the enabling measures to impose a fee in respect of contract labour, and a few minor amendments consequential thereto, this bill does not in any way alter other provisions regarding labour matters . Mr. Chairman, I now move that the Bill be read a second time . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second. MR. K.M.GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Minister of the Interior has indicated that this is an enabling Bill which gives him certain powers to act when an eventuality arises because the Republican Government might, by proclamation, grant tribal authorities power to impose a levy on all labour contracts signed inthe Transkei and elsewhere . We will not quarrel with the enabling clauses because he is seeking powers which will enable him to act immediately in a situation that arises in the future and probably labour is the only export that comes out of the Transkei into the rest of the Republic about which this Government can boast, ( Laughter) and this Government has finally tumbled to the hard fact that it can make money out of men who are recruited in the Transkei . One wonders , however, whether the tribal authorities are the bodies to handle such funds as may come in in this way. Past experience has shown that tribal authorities are the bane of local administration in the Transkei and is it wise to contemplate them as possible receivers of revenue for local benefit in this regard? One wonders too at times whether the Government is just nibbling at a big problem that of migratory labour coming out of the Transkei into the Republic. It is known that migratory labour has very many evils and this Government is now seeking to benefit financially by conniving at migratory labour , instead of devising ways and means of putting an end to that evil . Apart from the domestic evils which flow from the separation of a husband from his wife , the separation of the family head from the rest of the family, it is known that migratory labour is of no financial benefit to the employee who leaves his money in the Republic and only brings a small proportion of it back to the Transkei. I have said migratory labour is a very big problem and it is time the Transkei Government looked at this problem more closely than it is doing at the moment. Inherent in the policy of migratory labour is the fact that on completion of a contract the labourer has to return home. Apart from the fact that this drains the pocket of the employee there is an added hardship deriving from the fact that on completion of a contract , even where an employee can obtain a job where he is , he has to come back home again to be recruited for that job. One wonders whether this Government should not take this matter up with the Republican Government so that if a person has been recruited on contract and has completed his contract, and has a job offering on completion, he should be allowed to take it up on the spot without having to return to the Transkei. If the period of the contract is over you cannot repeat the contract, but if you are offered another job my submission is that you should be allowed to take up that job without having to come home and be recruited for that job. And the people who are recruited under contract are not necessarily labourers , because some people who are ex-teachers who have not been able to obtain a job may, under contract , go to the cities and there be offered a job in an office . Why should they not be allowed to take up that job which is really suited to their qualifications ? One would also like to see the Depart-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to express my appreciation for the remarks which have been made on this measure by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. They were remarks which came from a responsible leader of his people. As the Bill has already provided , it is merely put before this House to enable it to impose any levy which is being imposed by the Republican Government on the employers of Republican Africans . The views which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has expressed on the migratory system of labour are the views which this side of the House shares . The establishment of the Transkei Government is one thing which has shown the country that the Transkei is leading to a situation when the people of the Transkei will be in a position to find work within these territories without having to go with their families to the Republic.
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OPPOSITION MEMBER : When ?
We have heard this song by the Government about our able leader and his constructive suggestions that he makes from time to time . Fortunately our able leader cannot be bluffed by the remarks that come from an insincere Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Keep quiet. It must be appreciated that before the establishment of the Transkei Government the Transkei was neglected in so far as the establishment of industries is concerned . There was not even talk about the Transkei being a territory which should be economically viable . It was only when the Transkei Government was established that the world focussed its eyes on this territory and considered such things as the economic viability of the country. It was only when this Government was established that the Republican Government decided to establish such bodies as the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Xhosa Development Corporation to boost industry within the borders of the Transkei . It must be accepted, and nobody can get away from it , that the policy of South Africa has , for over three hundred years , been the policy of not allowing the African people to go and have homes in the big labour centres . The people who went to live in the labour centres went there to live as squatters , without being able to own any properties. Now , nobody would like to see his own people living permanently on land that does not belong to them. As the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has said , and as I have already remarked , we all appreciate the disadvantages of a migratory system of labour and none of us on this side of the House appreciates such a system. However, I want the Opposition to appreciate the fact that the Government is not going to broadcast everything that it is doing in the interests of the Transkei . The Government is at present having communication between themselves and the Republican Government on the question of the labour conditions affecting the people of the Transkei and I wish to assure the Opposition that the Transkei has a responsible Government that sees to all the interests of the Transkeian citizens . (Interjections) I want to assure the hon. member for Maluti , who seems to be despising the Government, that the Government only lacks agitators who might form the Government if the Opposition were in power. Now, with regard to the establishment of trade unions , that will be a matter which will evolve in the Transkei with the development of the labour system within the Transkei . At present there is nothing to stop the people of Umtata from establishing a trade union , but it should be clear that once trade unions are established in the Transkei they will affect the Transkeian citizens . With regard to the remarks which were put forward as a question by the hon. member for Nyanda , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , I would like to say that although the Bill will become operative immediately it is passed and signed by the State President , it will not work until the regulations have been framed and put into effect by the Government , and it does not mean to say that if this law is passed the Government will, by regulation , put it into operation. It will all depend on the discretion of the Cabinet, and if the Cabinet finds that the law should not apply in the Transkei they will shelve the law. But you must realise that you must rely on the intelligence and the good brains of the leaders of the country. ( Laughter ) All that we want is enabling legislation in order to apply our brains and see to the interests of the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are stirring up trouble now. MR. RAJUILI : How many constructive suggestions has he made to this stupid Government since its establishment, and they have not taken a single one ? (Laughter) Nevertheless it is interesting to hear the hon. the Chief Minister, perhaps the only person who has some brains to speak about in that Government. Unfortunately, he too is so susceptible to this misleading that the erstwhile good brains have been washed off. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : trying to say?
What
are you
MR. RAJUILI : We shall nevertheless take cognizance of his remarks that he , like the responsible Opposition, is against migratory labour. Now, while he says that with one breath he immediately says that he welcomes the border industries that will promote migratory labour. (Interjections ) THE CHIEF MINISTER: I never spoke about border industries . THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. RAJUILI : Am I right to say that the hon. the Chief Minister and his Government would like to see industries established in the Transkei ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: In the Transkei , yes . MR . RAJUILI : We very much welcome that and I am glad that for the second time he has said he would prefer industries in the Transkei , excepting that unfortunately you have no way of seeing these industries established . (Interjections) How are you going to do that ? What is there to show anyone that you are moving towards the establishment of industries in the Transkei ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : complex at Butterworth.
The
MR. RAJUILI : I will leave the hon. the Chief Minister for a little while and tell him that I have captured his seat at Cala. ( Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you call upon the police to protect you there? MR. RAJUILI : It was because of your irresponsible Government wich will organise violence where it is least expected. (Laughter) Indeed , the police did their work very well , despite your organisation. I will let you know more about that later on because I know you are worried. Now, his remarks were that the eyes of the world were focussed on the Transkei and I think I agree with him as far as that is concerned and I think the eyes ofthe world were focussed on the Transkei to see the sincerity of this policy in action. It will be disappointing to the world to find that there is now an arrangement being made so that this Government can be a recruiting agent for labour that may not be accepted by the decent people of the Transkei. There are different kinds of labour and different kinds of people who go to these different kinds of labour . For instance, there are the mines and we are aware that our Government will be able to make some
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , indeed we did look forward to some such arrangements as this that is intended today. May I start first of all with the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister. It has become difficult these days ever to take seriously what he says because of these political acrobatic somersaults .
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money out of that. Although the intentions , perhaps, are not good , the money is good. There are farm labourers , and may I at this point say straight away that we have had people at the meetings tell the magistrate : Whatever happens , don't come and recruit us for farm labour . There is labour in the factories and I doubt very much whether there will ever be an arrangement to make people go and work in the factories . Most of our people would prefer to find their own work, particularly the enlightened element , and the Transkei has more educated people than perhaps any other Reserve in the country . There is the other labour - domestic labour, for instance . Does this Government have in mind having these different kinds of labour ? I want to emphasize that the Transkei people are so enlightened that they fit into factories , drive delivery vans and so on and enter trades . We take it that when men go to work they choose not to work for a short while but to make a living, so long as they like until they leave . We hope the Government will not take responsible young men and make them go as mine boys. I am not surprised that an irresponsible Minister like the hon. the Minister of Agriculture thinks that a University student should be a candidate for mine labour. There is the brains of your Government, Sir ! I am glad that the hon. the Chief Minister has already hinted that this enabling Bill, when it becomes something more than this, is just going to be shelved .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : I was asking a question the first time . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If you ask a question in the course of your discussion, it may be answered . CHIEF NDAMASE : I did not discuss the Bill at all, Mr. Chairman . I asked a question the first time and now I wish to debate. THE CHAIRMAN: You can ask a question, but you must not debate.
CHIEF NDAMASE : I did not debate before . THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on, then. CHIEF NDAMASE : In his speech the hon. the Minister of the Interior says that the Republican Government might tax employers and he is making provision for this. My problem is that in doing this they may reduce the wages of the employees. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Nothing of the sort. CHIEF NDAMASE : What provision will there be to prevent that? One of the hon. members says that such a thing will not happen , but it is possible that this might happen. The recruiters recruit people and they spend so much money and that amount is deducted from the employee's wage. They do not make any provision to assist people to get their money, according to this Bill . All that will happen is that the employee will be taxed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He did not say that. He said it might , depending upon the circumstances . MR. RAJUILI : Now, the hon. the Minister of the Interior said in his introduction that this enabling Bill is in no way going to interfere with any other laws pertaining to work. I suppose you mean influx control?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The employer . CHIEF NDAMASE : The employees should not be taxed. They should get their full wages. ( Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Labour regulations . MR. RAJUILI: He says he refers to labour regulations , the chief of which is the one on influx control . Is this a way of trying to circumvent ..
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are misleading the people. You must not tell lies .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It is circumventing nothing.
CHIEF NDAMASE : allege that I am lying.
MR . RAJUILI: He says it is circumventing nothing. We hope also that if people decline to accept these unpleasant regulations they will not be looked at with disfavour by this Government . So, Mr. Chairman we shall watch and , indeed, we are made watchdogs of the people of the Transkei , but we cannot see any good in this evil Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall put the question that the Bill be read a second time.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . My hon. chiefs there
Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the committee stage will be on June 1, or so soon thereafter.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in regard to the reply to my question, it was stated that it will be left entirely to the discretion of the Cabinet . It is not that I have no faith in the discretion of the Cabinet, but I would wish everything to be done according to fixed laws and regulations . Coming to the Bill , there is usually a date fixed in the Bill when the regulations shall come into operation, or a notice is published in the Gazette . He need not talk of his discretion , not that I distrust him , but in his speech he stated that this proclamation is going to be introduced by the Minister of Bantu Administration.
THE CHAIRMAN: The House will remember that the hon. Mr. Guzana suggested that this motion be referred to a select committee . Unfortunately the mover of the amendment , the hon. the Minister of the Interior , was absent. I do not know whether or not the hon. Minister agrees with the suggestion?
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member, you are speaking for the second time.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I cannot understand
COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO CUSTOMS , CONVENTIONS , ETC. The debate was resumed .
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why the House had to wait for me in this matter. The motion was introduced and spoken to. I introduced an amendment which was also debated, and now I suggest that the debate continues .
chief and his tribesmen take good care that the people live according to the customary practices of the tribe. If the hon. mover of this motion has a chief I will be very disappointed if he did not consult his chief before bringing this motion , and if by bringing this motion he was representing a certain section of the tribesmen it is very clear that he works only with that section of the tribe and not with his chief and the tribe as a whole. I do not think that is according to the law because here we discuss things in connection with the people under their recognised chiefs . Mr. Chairman, I am here to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior , and even if the select committee were to be appointed I do not know how it will ever enter my area because it will only go there to cause trouble in a peaceful tribe under Sophonia. Instead of welcoming the commission we would just tell them to march out of our area. We have much to discuss relating to the life of the people of the Transkei . However , we must not try to make our Government concern itself only with a certain section of our people. This Government is the government of the people of the Transkei and we know what type of people those are. We have been given a Department of Education and we are running that Department to try and give sufficient education to the people of the Transkei . It is on that account that we often say education is a golden key that opens all the doors of Heaven. Let us do everything we can to help lead our people in the Transkei and not to scorn them and despise their customs under the chiefs over these tribesmen.
CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior , and I support every statement that he made thereon . The motion before us is a very difficult one which touches on the customs of the Bantu peoples . The inhabitants of the Transkei have different customs and we were given to rule ourselves according to the customs and traditions of our people under the chiefs . I believe in this Assembly there are chiefs and there are also representatives of the electorate . We are making every effort to run the country in a manner which will be appreciated by the African people . A suggestion was made to the effect that this amendment should be withdrawn and the matter placed in the hands of a select committee . In that I think we have already gone astray from our usual custom because the lead should come from this Assembly and we shall be putting an end to this Assembly if we put an end to the customs of the people . All of us have customs and we have built our lives on customary practices . The people whom we represent here will have a very low opinion of us if, instead of putting customary practices into force , we put an end to custom because these customs and practices are an essential part of the life of our people , according to the way they have been brought up . I hope we are all aware that we are not all Christians , even though we have ministers of religion here.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
OPFOSITION MEMBER : Who are not Christians here ?
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed.
CHIEF MOSHESH : The question was asked as to who are not Christians . By the cackle we know who laid the egg. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , it was suggested that we have a select committee on which ministers of religion will be represented . This would be a very delicate matter because ministers of different denominations follow different lines of procedure . There are ministers who encourage beer-drinking inthe congregation. Other denominations encourage polygamy. It is quite plain , therefore , that a select committee could not help to solve the problems . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to a custom whereby a young man seeks the hand of a young woman . I think everybody is aware that this is an old custom which cannot be put aside by any tribe . The question of marriage is very important and is a matter which rests on the parents of the two parties to carry out as they think best. He almost misled us by referring to the Zulu customs because the Zulus are people who live by warfare . I do not think that is a custom that is encouraged in the Transkei because the inhabitants of the Transkei are not mixed up. Further , it was mentioned that a girl who has a child before marriage becomes a "dikazi " . I know that sometimes a daughter is permitted to do as she chooses but among the tribes in the Transkei such a child is not allowed to live as she likes . Mr. Chairman, this reminds me of the people who were trying to erect the tower of Babel and before they had completed it they were hampered by being made to speak in different languages and they could not complete the work. I have no doubt that on this motion the members of the commission would not be able to agree. The chief is the head of his own tribe, Mr. Chairman , and anything connected with the customs of the people is referred to him. The
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the delicacy of this motion has been stressed by practically every member who stood up to speak on it, and I propose to deal with it too with the decorum and the modesty it deserves . I can only do so by laying out certain illustrations before this House which may, perhaps , appear irrelevant but which I trust will serve the purposes for which they are intended . I will work from the overt to the covert. I take it we shall all of us be agreed in this House that we as a people are a changing people , and in the course of that change our customs , our standards , our norms require to be adjusted accordingly . I think again we shall agree that before the advent of the White man into this country our high standard of value was a beast - a cow, an ox , whatever the case might be - and if one gave you a beast it was as if he had introduced you into the kingdom of Heaven. Our fines and fees were paid by means of a beast. Now, let us take our practice of maintenance - the practice generally called "isondlo" . Taking for our yardstick a thing that was considered as something of considerable value , a single beast was considered sufficient for bringing up somebody's child. That was regarded as adequate compensation - but can the same be said today? Let us look at the things that go into the upbringing of a child . In the olden days a child used to go about in a naked condition and was none the worse for the experience , but today we are bound to dress up our children. By the time that child is , say, ten years old , how many cattle have been spent on it? Let us take education, which is an indispensable part of one's upbringing these days . By the time that child has come up to J.C. , how many cattle have been spent
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on it? Let us take food. Our people used to live on boiled mealies , on ground mealies , on a free supply of milk and a free supply of meat. Now we live on monthly accounts . (Laughter) Is a single beast sufficient for the trouble of bringing up somebody else's child ? Let us take a wedding outfit and the articles that used to go into the composition of a wedding outfit - a few brooms , a few mats , a few baskets , a few this and a few that. Now, Mr. Chairman, it was correct to regard a single beast as being sufficient for the refund of dowry when the marriage had to break up, but today what are the articles that go into a wedding outfit? Is a single beast still sufficient? Let us take our practice of " nyoba " - that practice which has found it hard to die . It has persisted to this day in one form or another , for all the missionaries frowned upon the practice and recommended that it was inconsistent with good marriages . That practice has continued to this day. Now, I have said that these illustrations might be regarded as irrelevant to the subject. Of necessity they must because the subject is delicate and one has to keep within the bounds of decency in taking out specific examples . We shall appeal to the good sense of this Assembly; we shall appeal to the inner soul ofthis Assembly to recognise the importance of this subject. If we are agreed that there have been changes in other spheres of our life we must agree that the same is taking place in the sphere of our morals , and the laxity of our morals has to be checked somehow. There is nothing better than a commission to be appointed by this House to go out and study the subject and come and report to this House their findings . Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
members , I am so sorry that I have to speak in the absence of the hon. the Minister of the Interior because this subject is of social importance and we on this side of the House think a commission would collect all the social evidence and data in order to see to what extent the evils are prevalent. We are not at any time trying to outdate all our customs by legislation , but we do suggest that where the customs have failed to be of any importance or significance it is of no use retaining them. It is a pity that from the debates it does appear that some of the members did not even read the motion. For instance , the mover talks of a cross - section of the citizens of the Transkei . I think that he had in mind due cognizance of the fact that the Transkei is composed of various tribes . One speaker on the other side spoke of ministers of religion . We did not at any time speak of ministers , but said all interested persons or organised bodies , such as the Churches , in which case a Church or any denomination may appoint a member , not necessarily a Minister , but on the factthat he has an understanding of the subject. In this respect, hon. members , we cannot at any time legislate unless we know to what extent a state of affairs is evil . We are fully aware at the same time that sexual morals are degenerate in the highly educated sections of the people , but we have no statistics or any definite data as to the extent . To take the case of the backward and illiterate people of the country, do you mean to tell me that the position is still as it was years back? I am sure even today it is a clarion call amongst the backward people that our young people have degenerated and a commission would be able to investigate to what extent social and economic conditions affect our people's morals in the Transkei . (Interjections ) Those are some of the things , for instance , which could be investigated. It is not customary in any body of men for an elderly man like that to speak such rubbish . (Interjections)
MR . M.H. CANCA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this matter has been debated at great length by the House and all its important aspects elaborated upon. However , there is one point of disagreement between this side of the House and the Opposition and that is that this matter should be handled by a commission . The House should realise that we belong to various standards and degrees , and the majority are illiterates whom we have left in the Reserves , and they are the people who are most concerned in this matter. On the other hand one may say that the people who are illiterate are still more pure in their morals than the educated classes . Evil in the main lies with those people who consider themselves sophisticated and who have got mixed up with European society. That is the class that is a disgrace to the Bantu - the class that has learned various ways and means of doing mischief under the cloak of civilization - people who regard themselves as clever enough to evade their due punishment when they have been found out. I would rather the House consider this matter and devise ways and means whereby we shall improve the morals of our youth. We should start at the top and not from the bottom. I would suggest that when we go back to our homes we should , in consultation with the tribal authorities , consider what to do in this matter. I do not know whether they can see the way to seeing eye to eye with us because we seem to be in agreement on this . In that way we should find out the views of the people . Before we do anything about this we should find out what the views of the people in the country are . It may be that they will think we are taking advantage of our position here and passing legislation without their knowing anything , whereas if we get a mandate to go into this business on their behalf they will not blame us . That is how I see the matter , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman , we do crave your indulgence in this matter, that this commission be appointed to make an intensive and thorough study of the situation in order that we shall be in a position to legislate scientifically to meet this crisis in the history of our people , which may result in further enactments in the Education Department and further enactments in the Department of Justice , and even in our welfare section. All the departments may be affected by this . We all agree that there are definite social ills , not only in the Transkei but all over the Republic , and we in the Transkei have been pleased with self-government and I think this Government can therefore prove its worth by appointing such a commission to look into the social and economic aspects . For instance , hon . members , through that commission we may find it an urgent necessity to establish community centres ; we may be forced to realise that there is an urgent need for social workers ; we may come to realise that there is an urgent need for the establishment of industries . In any poverty- stricken people morals are bound to deteriorate. Why should the Government then be afraid to make a definite investigation into the present conditions of the people. I personally feel the Government is trying to shy away from its responsibilities . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up because I see no one standing on the other side of the House. The matter before us has already been described as
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon.
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wife , as you are doing. ( Laughter) You will never get any complaints from my wife about me . I look after her and there are no tears whatsoever. This matter could be attended to by the tribal authorities , after which it could be referred to the regional authority and finally to this House , where a solution can be sought. It is rather a painful thing to have a delicate subject like this discussed against the chiefs . There are very few people who cannot rise against their chiefs . You have come to kill these chiefs here . (Interjections ) This matter can now be referred back to the tribal authorities , where it will receive attention, and not to these murderers . You have an army and want to kill the chief of the Gcalekas . ( Laughter) This matter should be referred to our chiefs .
a delicate matter and the request has been made that it should not be dealt with on political lines . The root of the motion is that a commission should be appointed to investigate the conditions of our life today. I notice that during the discussion reference was made on the other side to our traditions and the speaker wanted a differentiation to be made in the members comprising the commission , whereas we consider the members should be appointed irrespective of race or tribe . The matter touches every one of us , whatever the colour of the skin . All we are concerned with is that the social standards have dropped and that commission could find out the causes of this . Even ifthere is a clash in the investigations in regard to these different traditions then the matter could be referred to the tribal authorities . The chiefs and tribal authorities could not investigate this matter adequately , because the tribal authorities act in the same manner as the courts today. They only give a verdict on their findings . I wish to request that we do not view this matter from the point of view that it has been raised by a particular party. My chief on the other side is a Mosotho and he told this House that his people would never welcome this idea, but I know for a fact that certain ladies who come from his area brought a similar matter for us to go into. Even the ladies in the Mount Frere area have brought this complaint and have tried to find a solution to it . There is one thing which should be taken into consideration and that is that in the Mount Frere area one scarcely ever sees a red- blanketed woman and yet this difficulty is being experienced by all , whether wealthy or poor . We are all in the same difficulty. The root of this matter is that the Government be asked to select a commission which will investigate the situation . Much has been said about " lobola " and other customs which can also be investigated . When there is a difficulty between the father and son, the father is shy to talk to the son and the son in turn is shy to talk to the father. Similarly , a mother is shy to talk to her daughter and a daughter is shy of her mother . Those are the things which can be discussed by the commission , so that they can try and find a solution to this. That is one of our reasons for asking for this commission. I wish to request the hon. Minister therefore to consider this question most seriously, because this is one of the things which is endangering the race as a whole . We are
MR. J. N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy that it was mentioned earlier that this discussion should rise above party political views because very often the truth is restrained by the political views that a person supports. Let us look at this matter and see where the trouble really begins . In my own view the trouble begins in the home when both husband and wife have to go to work, leaving the children alone . These children remain at home living according to their own childish whims . Perhaps in a fortunate family one of the parties remains at home to look after the children. Even though that may be so there will always be trouble because of children who roam and loiter in the streets. I am one who does not really think much of the force of the law in this respect. I feel that the law that should be applied is the law that emanates from the people themselves in their own homes . Let us take one of the customs known as " intonjane " . If there is a custom which is free from any evil it is this " intonjane " custom , which is quite legal and which is carried out according to custom among the people . The young people who mix in the " intonjane " custom have certain laws which they must obey and follow . There is not a single young woman who would come out of the " intonjane " and do just what she likes. By this I mean to point out that some of these customs are very good customs and there is no evil in them. Let us take also the " lobola" custom , which devolves upon the man and woman who wish to marry. If a man wants to pay one or ten beasts for " lobola" , that is something which must be attended to by the parties concerned . By this I mean that we must not tie our hands in these customs unless it be a destructive custom. Another thing which brings evil into these customs is the ministers or educated people. Let me give you an example . Suppose this is a church of a certain denomination , and the Chairman is the minister of this church to which we belong. According to the practice of this church , if a girl should be pregnant then she will be exUnfortunately , communicated . perhaps the daughter of the minister becomes pregnant and the minister does not want his daughter to be ex-communicated . ( Laughter) That brings trouble into the church and then a man might say that if his daughter becomes pregnant then no questions must be directed against her. By this I mean to point out that this is a very pathetic matter. Tribal authorities will not help the matter. The commission will not cure the situation. I think it should be left alone and left to the parents to look into and discuss with their children.
earnestly asking the Government to give this special attention. MR . N. XELO : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to make a few remarks on this subject. Much has been said on both sides of the House . I stand to support the hon . the Minister of the Interior in his amendment. I become nervous when I have to address so many people because I have been brought up in that way, but I am highly respected by the Xhosas because I never had to lie to get people to bring me to this House. (Laughter) The people who are supposed to be interested in this matter are here . The hon. the Minister of the Interior has already told this House that there are tribal authorities and regional authorities to attend to this matter . Members of the regional authorities are chiefs , and the members of the tribal authorities are respectable persons . The last speaker says the tribal and regional authorities cannot do a thing about this , but the people who have lost their morals are known by their tribal and regional authorities. The people who find their children unmanageable are known to the tribal authorities and as I stand here I am supporting my wife and I do not support any other woman other than my
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. BUSAKWE : It does not matter how long we discuss this matter, we can never come to an
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end and we cannot curb this moral deterioration. Our children say themselves that this is a time of enlightenment and people who claim they are enlightened live as they like , for they maintain they know how to conduct their own lives. You also maintain that if your child is over 21 years of age then he is of age , and your daughter can have a marriage licence issued to her to marry anyone, and you get nothing in the way of "lobola" then. By this I am trying to urge that we leave this matter alone .
their children according to custom. We cannot blame the Churches or the Government. We are to blame for this moral degeneracy . No Church has ever encouraged this moral looseness and likewise a parent would not encourage his child to be of low morals . In like manner, no Government would ever encourage this sort of thing among the youth. Let us seek a way to cure this moral degeneracy among the people . I think there is only one way to cure it and that is to go back to our customs .
CHIEF M. TANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to thank the last speaker unconditionally for the speech he has made . At one time we used to place the customs and traditions of the Bantu people before the magistrate , and we sometimes went as far as appealing . I felt very much embarrassed when I heard young men participating in the discussion , whereas it should be discussed by elderly men who are more civilized and enlightened . (Interjections) Truly speaking, this matter should be referred to the chiefs before we can come to a conclusion. People who raise these matters are these young boys who go about in the towns. ( Interjections ) When they come out they go about talking like these boys who go about stealing, and they are the cause of our going astray.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I think we have reached a stage where we are making fun of this subject . It has been debated at great length. THE CHAIRMAN: I will now call upon the mover of the motion to reply.
MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , firstly I want to say I am very grateful to the House for having been responsive to my appeal that this matter should be treated with due During the debate there has been decorum . evidence from various speakers that there was an attempt to keep this matter on its proper level that is , excluding a few cases. I have noted that during the debate some of the members have tended to treat this matter from the point of view of our usual standing here . That was very unfortunate. I think now I must reply to some of the points that were raised by some speaker. Mention was made ofthe fact that in the Transkei we are composed of peoples of various tribes and that in tackling this matter the commission would find it very difficult to meet the customs of the various tribes . In this connection my reply is that I do not regard that argument as holding any water , because the commission would be so composed that the commission itself would be representative of the various tribes , and it it was felt that if the commission as a whole were to go to a particular tribe it would give offence to that tribe , I do not think it would be beyond the intelligence and ingenuity of that commission to so divide the work amongst the various tribal groups that would form the commission that the secrets , the prejudices and the inclinations of one tribe would not be affected in any way, as the members of that tribe forming the commission would go to that particular tribe . That would be necessary, Mr. Chairman , only if a given tribe objects to the whole commission coming to operate within its territory. Another point that was raised by speakers who did not seem to understand the motion was that the motion sought to change the customs of the various tribes , and that such changes of custom would merely be made here without reference to the people concerned. Evidently these speakers did not realise that the motion sought to get a commission to be appointed by the Government, and that the commission would go to the people . It would not seek to bring about changes in the customs without the people co-operating with such changes , so that there would be no conflict, therefore , with whatever changes were to be brought about in the customs of the people , if there were indeed any changes at all , because the right to change would then come from the people through the evidence they would give . Some of the speakers canvassed the point that the matter should be taken to the tribal and regional authorities for consideration . Of course, Mr. Chairman, this matter would be taken by the commission to the tribal and regional authorities in the course of their inquiries , because the commission would be appointed to collect evidence from the people who , in effect,
MR. H.H. NOLUTSHUNGU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , a person who has children has difficulties. A child is a precious thing to its parents . By saying this I mean to support the amendment to the effect that a commission will not help in this matter. The last speaker on this side of the House came exactly to the point. He mentioned that we cannot ask the Government to bring up our children according to custom when we ourselves fail to do so. The cause of all this evil emanates from the parents who ought to bring up their children in a proper manner , so if they do go astray they will be doing so in spite of their upbringing. I do not think any commission can go into the family lives of these children and investigate the morals of the families. Furthermore , I do not see what can be achieved by such a commission. Let us seek the root cause of this deterioration and then study it and find out how we can cure the situation. We belong to different tribal groups , and according to the tribal customs of the different groups the maidens were also grouped , the older girls looking after the younger groups . Today we have nothing of the kind. In the past there were certain tribal practices , some to the effect that a young maid would not have any love relations with an elderly man. That does not apply today. I have found an elderly man carrying on a love affair with a young girl and even if the young girl objects to this the father disclaims her. These are some of the things which are the cause of the moral deterioration of our young people. To go further, we had a custom where our young girls were under constant examination , and here is one making the remark that you can examine your daughters , because the practice has now become extinct. In some cases where the father adheres strictly to this practice it is found that the mother objects, for the mother will often object and say it brings disgrace to the family and to the child. The other children in the village who see that the custom is not carried out in a certain family object to its being carried out in their own families . That, I think, is nonsense because some of the members of the commission may have clandestine relations with these children. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, I think there is only one thing which will help us in this, and that is to go to the parents and ask them to bring up 288.
would include the authorities . If the authorities wanted to give evidence they would naturally have to meet the commission when it came round , so in that way it would not conflict with the powers of the tribal and regional authorities . I have noted throughout the debate , Mr. Chairman , that there is general admission that there has been some lamentable deterioration in sexual morals amongst our people . As far as I remember , not a single speaker has contradicted that fact. Every one of them has lamented the fact , but , Mr. Chairman, it is a curious thing to my mind that in spite of such admission there are some hon. members in this House who want to evade facing up to the issue as we find it. To say that the matter must be taken to the tribal and regional authorities is both to evade the issue and to misinterpret it intentionally, because the state of affairs about which we are complaining through this motion has obtained right in front of the tribal and regional authorities . They have done nothing about it , so that to say it must go back to them really means that it must be taken to the people who have been defeated , or people who are aware that the situation exists but are powerless in the face of it. Some speakers have raised the view that the matter should be left to the various families to manage , but in the course of their debate they have given evidence that those families , one after the other as time went on, have failed in this respect. That is pointing to the fact that the prevalence of the evils of which we are complaining now is in spite of whatever has been done by the individual families . I therefore cannot understand , Mr. Chairman, how it can be said that this should be left to the various families.
Chairman, that the hon . the Minister of the Interior should se it proper on his part, and responsible on his part, to put in this amendment in which he states that there is nothing necessitating the appointment of such a commission , when in the same breath he concedes that there is very much that is wrong in the state of Denmark. I am very much gratified to find that there are quite a number of people in the House who are convinced of the need of a commission in this respect, and I am very much gratified for the words that they have said in this House . I must make special mention of my satisfaction with the words said by the hon. Mr. Canca. He has conceded that there is a need for going to the people , although , of course , he did not agree with the idea of a commission. So , Mr. Chairman, I think I have said all that I need say and all I can add is that I appeal to the members of this House to reconsider what they have said and thought before I spoke , and to agree that it is necessary that this House should appoint a commission to go into this question which affects us all so much. THE SECRETARY : The question is a motion by the hon. Mr. T. H. Bubu , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Minister of the Interior . I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted should be retained . The words proposed to be deleted were omitted by 32 votes to 52. The words proposed to be substituted were agreed to by 52 votes to 33. The motion as amended was carried by 52 votes to 33.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Can you clarify this point? What will you do with the findings of the commission ?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday , 30th May, 1967.
MR . BUBU : In the motion it is suggested that after the commission has collected and collated evidence it will report to this House and it would therefore be incumbent upon this House to determine what should be done in the light of the findings of the commission and its recommendations . It must be remembered that whatever the commission would report upon and recommend would be drawn from the people , because it must be realised that when people give evidence they give evidence on what has taken place , or what is taking place , and at the same time they recommend what they consider should be done in the circumstances . The report of the commission would therefore reflect the views of the people in the Transkei . It would also reflect what they would like the Government to do . I trust the hon. member understands . Finally, Mr. Chairman, while we do not like to feel that there is, on the part of some of the hon. members of this House , an attempt to evade responsibilities , and one would not like to feel that the view that this matter should be left to the people is born of a desire to exploit the present situation • •
THE whom ?
MINISTER
OF
AGRICULTURE :
TUESDAY , 30TH MAY , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the members of this House know, and the whole world knows , that the State President of the Republic of South Africa will be retiring from public life tomorrow I feel it my duty as Leader of the Government to extend the heartiest felicitations of this House to the State President and Mrs. Swart on their retirement from public life. I am sure that the members of this House are acquainted with the public life of this honourable gentleman. In 1948 he was rewarded for his contribution in the fight for the entire sovereignty of South Africa by being made a Cabinet Minister , and from that time he became the talk of almost everybody in the Republic of South Africa because of the important portfolio he held in the Cabinet - namely, the portfolio of Justice . As you know , the portfolio of Justice requires a man of integrity, a man who is determined to see to the safety of the individuals in the country. The State President , Mr. Swart, acquitted himself in preserving peace and tranquillity in South Africa. When South Africa became a republic in 1961 the people of South Africa who are represented in the Republican Parliament chose Mr. C.R. Swart as the first
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MR. BUBU: .our situation as far as sexual morals is concerned is at the moment one that is open to exploitation by those who feel like exploiting it. The suggestion of appointing a commission was to prevent such exploitation and to arrest the evil . I feel , therefore , that I must still appeal to the hon. members of this House to consider the desirability of appointing a commission . It is indeed very unfortunate , Mr. 289.
TRANSKEI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
State President of the Republic of South Africa. His assumption of duty coincided with the inauguration of the Transkei Constitution Act, which was passed in 1963, and it fell upon the shoulders of this honourable gentleman to consider the passing of the Acts of this Legislative Assembly in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act. I am sure everybody knows that not a single Act which has been passed in this House has had to be referred back to the Legislative Assembly for reconsideration . That has , in our minds , made it clear that the State President of South Africa is a big man. It is not for me to analyse his qualities as a leader , but I am sure that you will agree with me when I say he is one of the greatest leaders which South Africa has had during the past decade . I was fortunate to be present at the inauguration of the State President in 1961 in Pretoria , and from his very appearance I was certain that South Africa has made the best choice . We wish Mr. and Mrs. Swart in their retirement a very happy life on their farm which is just about four miles on the other side of Brandfort, and from the report which was made this morning over the air , that in a statement made by this honourable gentleman he called upon South Africa for unity - unity amongst all races of this country - I am sure that we all share his views in so far as the peaceful co-existence is concerned . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , do you wish to say anything about this Labour Bill before we proceed to the next item?
MR . GUZANA : If you could give me an opportunity just before the next item, in case some of the Minister have notices of bills to bring in. Mr. Chairman , Sir , I have craved your indulgence to make just a short comment on a matter which struck us after this House had risen yesterday in truth, this morning. This factor has arisen in connection with the Bantu Labour Regulation Bill brought in by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. Now, Sir , I will make these comments and will give the hon. the Minister of the Interior the opportunity to reply to them , as he might be taken by surprise – and , in fact , we seek information with regard to the remarks I am going to make . We have held back intended amendments to the Bill because of this constitutional point which we thought we should bring to his notice . Section 1 of the Bill seeks to amend Act No. 15 of 1911. Now, we notice that Act No. 67 of 1964 has in the schedule this entry: Act No. 15 of 1911 , the Bantu Labour Regulation Act , 1911 , is repealed as a whole . Now section 1 of the Bill seeks to amend section 2 of Act No. 15 of 1911 which, to my mind , has been repealed . Then section 2 of the Bill seeks to amend section 23 of Act No. 15 of 1911 , which has been repealed in the schedule to Act No. 67 of 1964, and it goes on to say that that section 23 is being amended , as amended by section 17 of Act No. 36 of 1957. Now in terms of the schedule to Act No. 67 of 1964 , Act No. 36 of 1957 has been repealed to the extent of sections 1 to 21 inclusive . That repeal is in terms of the schedule to Act No. 67 of 1964 so that section 17 of Act No. 36 of 1957 has already been repealed. It would appear that it is only section 3 of the Bill , therefore , - the short title - which is not
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to be associated with the good wishes expressed by the hon. the Chief Minister on behalf of the House to Mr. and Mrs. Swart on their retirement, which is just tomorrow at 12 midnight. One would have thought that the hon. the Chief Minister would have worn a smile through his oration , because this is not a matter of sorrow but a matter of congratulation , that a man should live to the ripe old age to which Mr. Swart has lived , and I think our congratulations to him and Mrs. Swart should be accompanied by smiles , rather than by scowls as I see on the Government benches . ( Laughter) The State President has had the distinction of becoming the first State President of the Republic of South Africa, so that his appointment is a constitutional landmark in the constitutional evolution of South Africa from the status of a union to that of a republic , and we are all agreed that he has carried this responsibility with distinction and aplomb. I believe that a man who occupies the first position in the Republic is a man who must have tact as his guiding star in all things that he says and in all things that he does , and we are agreed (I think all races in South Africa will say so) that at no time did the State President fail to show that tact and shrewdness which is the hallmark of a non-political head of state . Rising from the political arena , he was elevated to a position of impartiality and non-political allegiance , and it is a great tribute to him that he was able to disabuse himself of all previous political allegiance in order to discharge his duty as the head of state and the father of all races in South Africa . He has stood head and shoulders above everybody , both physically and metaphorically, and one remembers vividly how he walked into this House, if I remember correctly, in 1964 to open the second session of this first Legislative Assembly of the Transkei. Even the tallest amongst us here , including the hon . the Chief Minister , felt a dwarf in his presence . ( Laughter) We are pleased to see him going forward into a period of retirement, together with Mrs. Swart , and we will be happy to see that he enjoys a long , healthy period of retirement. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
affected. (Laughter) Now, there is a provision in Act No. 67 of 1964 contained in section 34 of that Act which reads as follows : This Act shall be called the Bantu Labour Act , 1964 , and shall come into operation on a date to be fixed by the State President by proclamation in the Gazette . It may well be that that date has been fixed by proclamation and we are inclined to believe that it has been fixed , since the provisions of Act No. 67 of 1964 have been put into operation - for instance , the establishment of labour bureaux and recruiting, etc. , as provided under this Act . It would appear therefore , Sir , that if the date has been fixed by proclamation we might be having a re-performance of Shakespeare's play "Much Ado about Nothing" . (Laughter) I would be happy if the hon. Minister would enlighten us on this . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , indeed the observations made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition have takem me by surprise . I shall , however, go into the matter and give my report before the committee stage of this Bill which possibly will be on Thursday, 1st June . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, we welcome that reply. I would just reiterate an observation which I made in the earlier part of my remarks • ... THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , I shall not allow any debate on this . MR. GUZANA : No , Mr. Chairman.....to the effect that we had held back amendments because 290.
there was this situation which arose , and we might be precluded from putting in any amendment to this Bill at the committee stage .
for the average and you are given the average. QUESTION NO. 71 . Mr. P. Mqikela asked the Minister of Justice :(a) What is the procedure in noting civil and criminal appeals from chiefs ' and headmen's courts having civil and criminal jurisdiction? (b) Whether the litigant has a choice to institute his action in chief's court or the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's Court? (c) Whether the defendant in a civil action has a right to refuse to accept jurisdiction of the chief's or headman's court in a civil matter; and the accused in a criminal matter? (d) Whether the court of the paramount chief has concurrent jurisdiction in civil and criminal matters with the courts of chiefs and headmen? (e) If the answer to question (d) is "Yes" is the court ofthe paramount chief not a court of appeal from the courts of chiefs and headmen?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I think after my report we shall postpone the committee stage to give them an opportunity. QUESTIONS
QUESTION NO. 70 . Mr. G. Dana asked the Minister of Education : "(a) ( i ) Whether the Transkei Department of Education supports the principle of equal pay for equal work should apply to teaching profession and if not, (ii) whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard. (b) (i) what is the amount expended by the State in their education averages , (ii) per pupil per year in the primary school (iii) per student per year in the secondary schools (iv) the average per year for the ethnic University colleges per student per year. (c) What is the average number of students who passed matriculation involving the subject of mathematics for the past four years in the Transkei ?"
REPLY : (a) The procedure in civil matters is laid down in regulation 9 of the regulations published under Government Notice No. 2885 of 1951 while the procedure in criminal matters is laid down in regulation 2 of the regulations published under Government Notice No. 1099 of 1943. In civil matters the appellant lodges his appeal by notifying the Clerk of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's Court within 40 days from the date of the pronouncement of the judgement. In criminal matters the convicted person may lodge an appeal by giving notice within 30 days to the chief or headman who delivered the judgement , to the respondent or complainant and to the Clerk of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's Court. (b) Yes, provided both courts have jurisdiction. The civil jurisdiction conferred on chiefs and headmen is limited to claims arising out of Bantu Law and Custom . (c) No. (d) Yes . (e) No.
REPLY: (a) (i) and ( ii) - The honourable member is referred to Rule 86 (vii ) of the Rules of Procedure and consequently this part of question falls away. (b ) (i) This question is vague and should be framed more specifically . (ii) and (iii) – No separate figures are available for the two individual categories of schools . For 1966 the expenditure per pupil for schools controlled and subsidised by the Department was R15.10. (iv) The University Colleges are not controlled by my Department and consequently no figures are available . (c) The average number per annum of students who during the past four years passed the past four years passed the matriculation examination and who took mathematics as a subject is 15 , but this does not mean that they have all qualified for University admission.
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , arising from the reply to Question 71 (c), would the answer be "yes" if the party is the plaintiff in the civil action? The reply to 71 (c) is " no " . Now I am asking if, instead of the defendant, you had " plaintiff in a civil action" would the answer be "yes " ? In other words , has the plaintiff the right to choose? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , that is the answer to (b).
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman arising from the reply of the hon. Minister , do I understand him to say under (b ) ( ii ) and ( iii ) that R15.10 is the amount per pupil in both secondary and primary schools ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not responsible for your lack of understanding of English. No separate figures are available for the two individual categories of schools . For 1966 the expenditure per pupil for schools controlled and subsidised by the Department was R15.10, and the Department controls the primary and post-primary schools .
QUESTION NO. 72. Mr. G. Dana asked the Minister of Education :"(a) (i) Whether the Minister will make a statement in regard to the scarcity of mathematics students and other scientific and technically grounded people amongst the Bantu in the matriculation standard ? (ii) if not, why not? (b) ( i) Has the enrolment of student teachers at Fort Hare University College increased since 1964? ( ii) How many student teachers who completed their teachers training course from the Transkei 1965-66 , and of that number -
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , this is an important question although we seem to feel that we can just go over it. Why I wanted to be clear on that was because I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister that, if I understand him well , he means to tell me that his Department is giving R15.10 both to a child in sub A and J.C. , on average . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You asked
(iii) How many are in possession of a degree 291 .
to the Department, is the Minister aware of the big sale of examination question papers to certain teachers at R10 per subject during the Eisteddfod last year? (e ) If the Minister is aware , what steps is he taking to stop a recurrence of this nature in future ? (f) If the Minister is not aware , and in view of these revelations , is the Department of Education prepared to investigate this matter?"
and are to teach matriculation classes?" REPLY: (a) (i) and (ii) The Department is fully aware of the scarcity of students and teachers referred to in the question and is doing all in its power to improve the situation. Therefore no further statement is deemed necessary. (b) (i) The University College of Fort Hare is not controlled by my Department and consequently I am not in a position to supply the required information. (ii) and ( iii) The question is vague and I am uncertain as to the precise information that the hon. member requires . He is therefore requested to reframe it. MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister to Question 72 (a) (i) , I should like to ask if the hon . Minister will be so kind as to tell us actually what the Department is doing to improve the situation. In his reply he has given us a general assurance that the Department is doing all in its power to improve the position. In view ofthe fact that this question was dictated by the seriousness of the position we would be glad if the Minister would tell us definitely what is actually being done by this Department to improve the position. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In reply I can only say that this year, for instance , there are more schools offering these subjects than there were last year. Buntingville and Jongilizwe are two of the many.
QUESTION NO. 73. MR. G.S. DANA : Mr. Chairman, before I put the question , there is a mistake here . I did not address this question to the hon . the Minister of Education. It should have been addressed to the Minister of the Interior. THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid the question is out of order , hon. member. You will have to frame it again .
REPLY: (a) Yes. Six or seven cases of suspected irregularity were reported from the Butterworth area. (b) Yes . (c) Nil . As no evidence or proof could be established, the Department was unable to take any further action. (d) No. (e ) All possible safety precautions were and will continue to be taken. (f) If the hon. member is able to produce evidence of his statemeent that question papers were sold at the Eisteddfod , the Department will most certainly investigate the matter.
QUESTION NO. 75. Mr. C. Diko asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) Is the purpose of the B.I.C. in the Transkei to assist Africans to acquire properties for sale or is it here to compete with aspiring Africans ? (b) If its purpose is not to compete with the Africans why does the B.I.C. raise the price where an African has made an offer to buy? (c) Is it possible for the Transkei Government to appoint an independent authority as a valuator to guard against the B.I.C. unduly raising the prices of properties where Africans are concerned ? (d) (i) Who is the X.D.C. ? (ii) What is the difference between the B.I.C. and the X.D.C. ? (e) Of the 63 stations managed by the B.I.C. is it prepared to give these stations to Africans on rent basis ?"
MR. GUZANA : In any event , Mr. Chairman, if there has been a typographical error we would ask that the question stands as amended and that it be directed to the hon. the Minister of the Interior to be replied to next week.
REPLY : (a ) The Bantu Investment Corporation itself does not purchase any properties in the Transkei for its own account but merely grants loans to Bantu who wish to acquire business undertakings or private homes . There is , therefore , no question whatsoever of it competing with Bantu who wish to acquire properties.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you right? Does the hon. Mr. Dana say that? MR. GUZANA : According to him he said that it is a typographical error and that he directed the question to the Minister of the Interior.
(b) The Bantu Investment Corporation is not aware of a single instance where a purchase price has been raised . (c) Properties like European- owned trading stations which have been acquired over the past 18 months have in all cases been purchased by the South African Bantu Trust. In each and every instance the purchase price has been determined by the Transkei Adjustment Committee after a physical valuation by a valuator and an analysis of the trading accounts of such a trading station. The Bantu Investment Corporation did not feature in any of these transactions but after the purchase the Bantu Investment Corporation leases such stations from the South African Bantu Trust in order to keep them operating for the benefit of the Bantu population. As soon as a Bantu is adequately trained to take over such
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I am accepting the question, as amended, to be replied to on Tuesday next week.
QUESTION NO. 74. Mr. O.O.H. Mpondo asked the Minister of Education :"(a) Is the Department of Education aware of the irregularities that occurred in the Std . VI. examinations in the Butterworth district last year? (b) If so , were these irregularities investigated ? (c) What were the results of the investigations ? (d) If these irregularities were not reported
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a trading station a loan will be granted for this purpose to him by the Bantu Investment Corporation and the re- sale price of such a station is based on its economic valuation which in all cases is less than its original purchase price. The Bantu thus has the opportunity of purchasing a trading station at its lowest possible value irrespective of the higher price paid for it by the South African Bantu Trust. The South African Bantu Trust carries in all cases the loss incurred by selling at a lower price to a Bantu. The appointment of an independent authority as a valuator will not serve any useful purpose . (d) (i) The Xhosa Development Corporation has been constituted under Act 86 of 1965 by the South African Government. Its sole purpose is to foster industrial and commercial development in the Transkei and Ciskei , i.e. the Xhosa-speaking homelands . (ii ) The Bantu Investment Corporation was constituted by Act 34 of 1959 with the purpose of promoting and encouraging the economic development of Bantu persons in the Bantu areas in the whole of South Africa . The Xhosa Development Corporation was subsequently established specifically for the industrial development of the Transkei and Ciskei but to avoid duplication of functions the activities of the Bantu Investment Corporation will gradually be taken over by the Xhosa Development Corporation. Thus , in time to come , the Xhosa Development Corporation will be the only body responsible for industrial as well as commercial development in the Transkei while the Bantu Investment Corporation will concentrate its efforts in the rest of the Bantu areas in the Republic and South West Africa. It is possible , that in future a Zulu Development Corporation may, for instance , be established in the Natal area , a Tswana Development Corporation for the Transvaal , and so forth, while the Bantu Investment Corporation will retain the function of the mobilisation of Capital in all these Bantu areas, including the Transkei . (e) The 63 trading stations previously managed by the Bantu Investment Corporation (the latest figure is 85) are controlled by the Xhosa Development Corporation as from 1st April , 1967. These stations are owned by the South African Bantu Trust. They are leased by the Xhosa Development Corporation until such time as they are sold to individual Bantu. In the meantime any Bantu with the necessary business experience can lease these stations direct from the South African Bantu Trust by applying for such lease to the magistrate of the district in which the particular station is situated . Should the successful Bantu lessee require capital to purchase stock- in-trade he may apply for funds to the Bantu Investment Corporation . Bantu will get preference in acquiring these trading stations on a lease basis. MR. C. DIKO: Arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, Mr. Chairman, may I know, Mr. hon. Minister, if the purpose of leasing is not to compete with the Africans . why is the BIC opening a hotel right opposite Mr. Ntshona, and the building will take place next month? Wouldn't it be much better if the BIC could advance the necessary money to Mr. Ntshona to improve his establishment? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Has he applied?
MR. DIKO: The point is establishing a hotel opposite an African to compete . (2) Why was a
capable African lady who wanted to establish a beer hall refused by the town council of Umtata on the score that the business would be solely monopolized by the BIC or the Xhosa Development Corporation ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, in reply to the first question , I dare say the idea is to hand over that hotel to any Bantu in due course . It is not meant to compete with anyone. Number 2 : The hon. member will realise that the Bantu Investment Corporation does not fall directly under the Department of the Interior, and therefore if he is wise he will table his question and I will reply to that after investigation.
QUESTION NO. 76. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Education:"(a) Having regard to the fact that the new primary school syllabi were introduced for the first time only from the beginning of last year , 1966; (i) On what grounds could the honourable the Minister of Education justify the abrupt application of the criteria for promotion in respect of the 1966 Standard VI examination? (ii) Seeing that the period through which our primary school pupils are passing in so far as the syllabi and medium of instruction are concerned is a transitional one, for what reasons could the honourable the Minister exonerate his Department for omitting to set identical questions through an alternative medium e.g. Xhosa? (iii ) As the first and, at that time , the only circular relative to information on the Standard VI examination was not issued until the 31st October , 1966 , i.e. just a week or two before the examination, will the honourable the Minister of Education explain fully the circumstances in which this vital information was withheld until so late ? (iv) Will the honourable the Minister, finally indicate to the House what measures were adopted to meet the situation that arose in consequence ? (b) As I am aware that posts of certain viceprincipals were advertised last year and that further eligible persons did submit applications for the posts , will the honourable the Minister , in view of the urgency of the situation in respect of certain schools , explain the circumstances that have led to the silence that has since ensued on the part of the Department on this very vital aspect in our educational system ? (c) (1 ) In view of the newly introduced mode of inspecting primary schools , as distinct from the post-primary, through the instrumentality of a panel of inspectors , will the honourable the Minister give this House information reflecting the virtues of this mode of inspection of primary schools ? (2) In placing this information at the disposal of the House , will the honourable the Minister kindly bear in mind that: (i) In accordance with this mode of inspection a period of from three to four years may elapse before a given school that has been inspected is inspected again. (ii) Arising from the circumstances of the case , very much fewer schools under this may be inspected. (iii) This mode of inspection that logically robs the teacher of fruitful contact with his senior the professional inspector , while new syllabi have just been introduced . " REPLY : (a) (i ) No abrupt application of the require-
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MR .
ments was ever enforced in respect of the 1966 Std . VI examinations . Principals were informed just after mid-year in 1964 of the change of medium and were reminded in 1965 and again in January 1966 of the examination requirements . (ii) The Department is fully aware of the need to make allowances for the fact that the English medium is now used for examination purposes and did so generously in the 1966 examinations before the results were finalised . To continue to set identical examination questions in the vernaculars is no encouragement to teachers to change over to the English medium and is contrary to the policy as laid down by this Assembly. (iii ) The examination requirements set out in Monthly Circular No. 9 of the 31st October , 1966 , were merely a reminder to principals and were the same as those set out for the 1965 examinations . They are also clearly laid down in the syllabus handbooks which were issued to principals in January, 1966. The impression that entirely new requirements were suddenly sprung on principals only a few days before the examination is therefore entirely incorrect. (iv) In view of the replies given above , this part of the question falls away. (b) Vice-principal posts were created at 18 postprimary schools and at 8 primary schools last year. Other successful applicants are in the process of being informed. Salary adjustments and other urgent work delayed these appointments . (c) ( 1) and (2 ) In all education departments a distinction is drawn between an inspection of schools and an inspection of teachers . The inspection of schools is normally performed by a panel of inspectors and mainly concerns the work and administration of the principal and viceprincipal. The inspection of teachers is done by the Circuit Inspector and his field staff and there is no intention to reduce the number of inspections of teachers . Now that additional circuits have been created and the Circuit Inspectors and their staff have been freed of most of their administrative duties , it is confidently expected that the contact between the inspectorial staff and the teachers as referred to by the hon. member will increase and improve .
BUBU: It is a series of questions .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In view of the fact that the hon. member asks as arising from the reply a series of questions , I will shorten the whole matter by asking him to reduce them to writing . MR. BUBU : Arising from his reply, Mr. Chairman, I think he is out of order . I have put questions to him that arise from his reply. THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member, you must write them down if he says so. MR. BUBU: But they were included in this question. He has not replied to them fully. THE CHAIRMAN : He has told you to write them down. MR. BUBU : Arising further , Mr. Chairman, because this is a series of questions and they have been put down as one .... THE CHAIRMAN: You must write down all your questions. MR. BUBU: Arising from the reply to Question 76 (a) (iii) . ... . . THE CHAIRMAN : But still , hon. member, he told you to write them down. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I have said that all these questions that arise out of my reply the hon. member must reduce to writing and I think I am quite in order . MR. BUBU: However much he is in order , it is an indication of his inability to answer the question. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Whether I can answer them or not , you are not going to tell me what to do.
QUESTION NO. 77. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Chief Minister :"Granting that your Department, acting through Government agencies , for example , the Public Service Commission , can and should deal with cases of indiscipline in which one or other member of the civil service may at any given time involve himself, what safeguard can the honourable the Minister give to this House to the end that arbitrary and drastic disciplinary action on the part of the Public Service Commission may be averted ?"
MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, arising from the replies of the hon. Minister , I want to submit that there is some inaccuracy in his reply bearing on the question of the introduction and examination of the syllabus . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you asking a question or are you discussing the issue ? MR . BUBU: I am coming to the question . The hon. Minister in his reply said there has been no abrupt application of the criteria for promotions . Is the Minister aware that the syllabus was introduced for the first time from the beginning of 1966 , and that at the end of that year the examination that was written was the first of its kind under the new syllabus , and that in accordance with the requirements of the new syllabus which was being introduced from the beginning of 1966 the pupils were required to pass English on a 40 per cent basis , and that in the past those pupils were required to pass English or Afrikaans on a 331/3 per cent basis , and that the candidates who were now being expected to pass English on a 40 per cent basis Lad not studied this syllabus from Std III and that therefore they were not the products of the system now being put into practice ?
REPLY : Section 19 of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 clearly outlines the procedure to be followed in cases of misconduct ; a cumbersome procedure specifically intended to safeguard the rights of officers in the Transkeian Government Service . It should be clearly understood that in cases of misconduct the officers concerned are charged by their respective heads of department and that the Public Service Commission is only called upon to recommend a course of action to the responsible minister after having weighed the evidence placed before it. QUESTION NO. 78. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister ofthe Interior:"In the case of the civil servant who is a resident of the district of Lusikisiki, who was dismissed from the service of the Government
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, what is your question? You are making an explanation now. 294.
only suggest the hon. member can come and see me in my office and I will give him all the details .
under the Department of Interior last year, will the honourable the Minister explain to the House the possibly grave reasons that called for the drastic disciplinary action that was resorted to by the honourable the Minister in respect of the said official who held a first grade post?"
QUESTION NO. 79. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : "In areas where the rehabilitation scheme has been accepted and where such scheme is being put into operation : (a) What nature of co-operative endeavour is expected from the side of the residents of the area affected? (b) To what extent criticisms and/or suggestions from the community concerned through its elected committee are accommodated by the Department ? (c) Will the honourable the Minister furnish the House with information relating to the criteria that have a bearing upon the suitability of a locality for a residential area ? (d) If from years of acquaintance and experience the residents of an administrative area should be of the opinion that a given locality proposed as a residential area by the Department is definitely unsuitable for human habitation because it is very damp, what measures does the Department adopt to investigate the substance of the grievance ? (e) Will the honourable the Minister indicate to the House what is the Department's norm in respect of a damp area or vice versa ?"
REPLY : The civil servant in question was found guilty of misconduct in terms of paragraphs (j ) and (q) of Praclamation No.R.334 of 1963 in that he used intoxicants or stupefying drugs excessively and that he absented himself from his office or duty without leave or valid cause . MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . Minister , in view of the fact that the official concerned held afairly high post and in view of the fact that he had served the De• partment for abour a quarter of a century THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is not the place for making pleadings . You must leave the pleadings to the office of the Chief Minister. MR . BUBU : ·· • how did the Minister see it proper on his part to get rid of his services so abruptly? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : What do you suggest could have been done ? MR. BUBU: In view of his service and that he is the head of a family • •• • THE CHAIRMAN: You must put the question , hon. member. You are always discussing. I am watching you .
MR. BUBU: I am just explaining my question. In view of his commitments as a family man, why did the hon. Minister not take that into account? THE CHIEF MINISTER : How do you know that was not done ? MR . BUBU : He could have been demoted. What worries me is that the services of this man in the past did not seem to have been taken into account. THE CHIEF MINISTER : How do you know that? MR. BUBU : I know because drastic action was taken against him .
the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why didn't you go to Department to find out what happened?
THE CHAIRMAN : Refer your question to the Minister concerned , hon. member. MR . BUBU: I am trying to do so, but the hon. the Chief Minister is interfering with me.
in
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I am not any way prepared to discuss the matter.
MR .
BUBU:
But it was
drastic
action.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No , it was not. Just listen now. THE CHIEF MINISTER : How do you know it was drastic ? MR. BUBU: It was obviously so. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I can
REPLY: The questions are very wide and the replies deal with it only in a summarised and condensed form . (a) Because it is also to the benefit of the residents that they should settle on the new basis with the least delay, the fullest co -operation is important e.g. (i ) To provide all the necessary information asked for such as stock numbers , water supplies , suitability of residential areas etc. (ii) Complying with the stipulations of the plan such as moving into residential areas as soon as possible, practising the grazing system to the full etc. (iii) Not to destroy works such as fences , contour banks , dams , windmills , gates etc. (iv) Applying improved production methods as taught by the extention staff. (b) Sound suggestions and constructive criticism through the elected committee on all aspects of the plan are considered and where comparable with the interests of sound planning it will be accepted . (c) Amongst other the following can be mentioned :1. The area must be well drained . 2. Erosion will not be caused or increased . 3. The water supplies must be sufficient for the number of people who are going to live in that area , or can be augmented so that it will meet with the demand . 4. The grazing camps to be laid out must be accessible from the area. 5. The area must be accessible . 6. The area must be large enough to accommodate all those who have to stay there. 7. As few people as possible must be forced to move , and accordingly those areas where the largest numbers are already concentrated are usually preferred. (d) Examine the area very carefully for signs of 295 .
dampness. (e) It is not possible to fix a norm for the whole Transkei because conditions vary widely. What may be considered damp in a certain area is often not considered damp in another by the inhabitants. Degrees of dampness differ from year to year . Mainly the local residents are consulted and
fact that on investigating the matter it was found that what the motion seeks here is what is really happening , I will request this House to accept the motion as it is when moved and seconded.
factors such as topography , plant growth, rock formation, etc. serve as useful indicators whether an area is suitable or not.
Mr. L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this motion proves that we are people who are keen to do what is right .
Anticipating the member's mentality with regard to this dampness , Mr. Chairman , I might add for his information that people usually shield behind dampness when they refuse to move to another area, and I can quote specific cases in that regard.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Just move . You need not discuss it.
CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS OF TRANSKEIAN CITIZENS IN THE CISKEI
MR. MAZWI : I am happy that the Government side notes that. On that account I move therefore :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to see to it that all Transkeian citizens who have been forced to reside in African townships in the Ciskei do not forfeit their citizenship rights in the Transkei . "
AFTERNOON SESSION. The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. TRANSKÉI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR :Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I crave your indulgence for a moment. This morning the hon. the Leader of the Opposition made some observations with regard to the Bill to amend the Bantu Labour Regulations , and I promised to go into the matter and give my report on Thursday. I did not then anticipate getting the reply so soon as I have now. I have thus far got clarity in the matter and if you look into section 65 of our Constitution Act , No. 48 of 1963 , it reads as follows : " Subject to the provisions of this Act, all laws which, immediately prior to the commencement of this Act, were in force in any of the districts mentioned in section 2 shall continue in force until repealed or amended by the competent authority. " In other words , Act No. 67 of 1964 only came into being after the commencement of this Act, meaning to say that in so far as the Transkei is concerned Act No. 15 of 1911 still holds good until such time as it can be repealed by a competent body , meaning this Assembly. I would again refer you to section 37 of the same Constitution , sub- section ( 1 ) which reads as follows : " Subject to the provisions of this Act the Legislative Assembly shall have the power - (a) to make laws not inconsistent with this Act in relation to all matters appearing in part B of the first schedule to this Act. " Inter alia , Mr. Chairman, in Part B labour is one of them. That being the case , Mr. Chairman , I think the House understands the position now and I shall carry on with my committee stage on Thursday, the 1st June .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the motion.
The motion was carried unanimously. ON-CONSUMPTION FACILITIES FOR AFRICANS IN TRANSKEI HOTELS MR . G.G.KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting hotel owners to provide accommodation for Bantu customers in the Transkeian Territories to consume liquor within the premises of the hotel . Mr. Chairman , I think the whole Assembly should give support to this motion, for it will help everybody within the bounds of the Transkeian Territories . All the respectable people like the hon. paramount chiefs on the other side whom we know to consume much .... (Laughter) P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr.Chairman, the interpreter slipped up . The speaker said "the chiefs across the floor" , not the paramount chiefs . MR. KUTU : The chiefs across the floor are known to consume liquor and even the members who do not partake of liquor may consume beer . On that account, therefore , the respectable chiefs and the hon. members should have premises
THE CHAIRMAN: Is the Leader of the Opposition satisfied ?
provided for them to consume their liquor at ease. It is regrettable that one sees chiefs and their followers going into garages and out of the way places in order to consume their liquor. The Government of the Transkei therefore ought to consider the comfort of these chiefs , expecially because they support that Government by their votes . It is not only the chiefs but also the hon. Ministers who join the chiefs in the consumption of this Liquor . One Minister who is looking at me now was found by the authorities and he went through the hedge in front of the Town Hall , and he is not likely to ask who that was because he knows I will quote his name. (Laughter)
MR. K.M. GUZANA : I have taken note of it, Mr. Chairman. I cannot say that I am satisfied with it. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The fact is , however, Mr. Chairman, that I shall carry on with my committee stage on Thursday. THE CHAIRMAN: As the hon. the Chief Minister is not in this afternoon I think we should deal with Motion 41 and not 24 on the order paper. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, with regard to Motion 24 , in view of the fact that the reply that I was waiting for from Pretoria has not come , and in view of the
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. KUTU; Mr. Chairman, this motion is indeed very important. We are the citizens of
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THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment, please. Is the seconder of the motion prepared to widraw?
the Transkei , born in the Transkei and it is a disgrace that we should not be given the respect that is even extended to the Coloured people who are given the opportunity to drink their beer in places provided for them, whereas the chiefs have to drink their liquor outside in the land that belongs to them . What purpose is being served by the fact that we are told we have been given freedom when the Government of the Transkei cannot grant such requests as the one contained in this motion ? I would like you to think of any Minister going along with the chiefs , and perhaps in the company of the Chief Minister as well, and perhaps they wish to go into a bottle store to be able to quench their thirst, and then be compelled to go into out of the way places in order to drink their beer. That is certainly not a respectable thing for a citizen in his own land . Some of them find shelter in the back rooms of housemaids . Mr. Chairman, I do not think I need say much about this motion, which I think is very well understood and should be accepted by the whole House . It is very clear and the person who opposes this motion is one who would like to have his drink secretly.
MR . LUFEFENI : Yes , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : I second the motion of the hon. the Minister of Education. THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ? Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 1st June , 1967. THURSDAY , 1ST JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of Wednesday , 30th May, were taken as read and confirmed. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I once more appeal to the Chief Whips in connection with the members failing to attend timeously. I have told you before I will have to take drastic action against this practice .
MR . W.Z. LUFEFENI : I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very keen that we do not waste time on some of these matters in view of the fact that this matter is already being seen to. In fact, I may mention that there is an application at present which is pending for the curing of that very position. I wonder ifmy hon. friend would not therefore just withdraw his motion? What would be the use of this motion, for instance , based on something that is being done ?
TRANSKEI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House resolve itself into committee . MR. J.M. SINEKE : I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, you will remember that a reply was given to me on a point of law which I raised on Tuesday. I was asked if I was satisfied with the reply and I said I had noted it. Now I am in a position to replicate to the reply I have received and I shall crave your indulgence , Sir , if I may so do ?
MR . KUTU : Mr. Chairman , I do not see any reason why I should withdraw this motion, for if indeed the Government is already taking steps in this direction , which, however , we have not been informed of, we are not opposed to it , and seeing we have not been informed of what is being done how will the chiefs take their drink in the meantime ? I would agree to postpone this motion until a reply to the matter that the Government is handling is available .
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. MR. GUZANA: Thank your, Sir. The reply given to me was to the effect that section 65 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , met the point I had raised. Now, on reading section 65 ( 1 ) we find that all laws which , immediately prior to the commencement of this Act, were in force in any district mentioned in section 2 (that is , in the districts of the Transkei ) shall continue in force until repealed or amended by the competent authority. Now, Sir, the Republican Legislative Assembly has the power to repeal its own legislation or to amend it, and in the common meaning which is given to words which are not ambiguous the competent
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I will make the position very clear. Perhaps you do not understand it. There is provision in the liquor law which is applicable to the Transkei at present - that is , in all the urban areas of the Transkei for hoteliers to apply for special authority for the provision of separate amenities for the African people , (that is for on-consumption of liquor, for consuming liquor on the premises) but despite all that , very few or no White hoteliers have applied . At Umtata there is only one whom I am speaking about. Now, no amount of pushing that motion forward is going to make the White people apply , because they cannot be forced to apply if they won't apply. In other words there is no law preventing them from applying. Ifthere was such a law there would never be a law entitling the Milner Hotel in East London, say, to supply liquor to African customers .
authority to repeal or amend legislation by the Republican Government is that Government itself. This Assembly, however, has also been given power to repeal and amend legislation by the Republican Government applying to these Territories which was enacted before the commencement of this Act. In other words , the power of repeal and amendment of Acts of the Republican Government which are applicable in the Transkei is exercised by two bodies , namely, the Republican Parliament and the Transkei Parliament.
MR. KUTU : I think the hon. the Minister of Education has made the matter very clear and on that account I withdraw the motion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn until Thursday. It is a holiday tomorrow and I am sure some of us would like to get home .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Not afterthe passing of the Transkei Constitution Act. It is in relation to all Acts of the Republican Government before 297 .
the commencement of this Act.
point out a matter which I think ought to be borne in mind when legislation is brought in.
MR. GUZANA : In the present case Act No. 15 of 1911 has been repealed by the Republican Government . . .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I think the day before yesterday I made myself quite clear as far as this matter was concerned. I said that Act No. 67 of 1964 only came into being after the commencement of the Transkei Constitution Act and in so far as the Transkei is concerned the principal Act is still Act No. 15 of 1911. The 1964 Act is not applicable to the Transkei and that is why this Bill intends to amend certain sections of Act No. 15 of 1911 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: After the passing of the Transkei Constitution Act.
MR. GUZANA: · .and I submit , Sir , that the Republican Government has not been denied its power to repeal its own Acts by reason of the fact that the Transkei Constitution Act was passed. In other words , the Republican Parliament, exercising its power of repeal, has repealed this particular Act so that it is nonexistent.
MR . GUZANA : Which has been repealed . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Only in so far as the Republic is concerned .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : In so far as the Republic is concerned.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Those laws still remain in force until repealed • •
MR. GUZANA: Yes , that is its power of repeal and it has exercised its power in respect of an Act passed by itself, and we cannot gainsay that power. Now, I have also been referred by the hon. the Minister of the Interior to section 37, and section 37 gives this Assembly the power to legislate on all matters appearing in Part B of the first schedule to this Act. Sub- section ( 3) of section 37 states that no law passed by the Republican Government or any other legislative body will apply to the Transkei after the commencement of this Act in respect of matters on which this Assembly can legislate . Now, if that is the position and the Republican Government has exercised its powers of repeal even after the commencement of this Act, it does not necessarily mean that that Act becomes operative in the Transkei although it has been repealed by a competent authority which legislated. In my view, what this Legislative Assembly could do is to extend the operative effect of the 1964 Act to the Transkei and then seek to amend that.
MR. GUZANA : By the competent authority. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And the Transkei Legislative Assembly is a competent authority to deal with labour matters . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I think we are wasting time , Mr. Chairman. I think the matter is clear . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I wish to second this , Mr. Chairman. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: No , I will not allow that. There is nothing to second. MR. RAJUILI : How can we legislate when we are not certain of certain points ? THE
CHAIRMAN:
No ,
sit down , please .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No , they cannot do that. It cannot legislate for the the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I move that the House sit in committee.
MR. GUZANA: This Assembly has the power to legislate on labour in the Transkei • •
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Yes , House in Committee
MR. GUZANA : .and Act No. 67 of 1964 deals with labour matters
On Clause 1
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: That Act came into being after the Transkei Constitution Act.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, this clause merely clarifies the definition "Minister " in the principal Act and is necessary because of the substitution of the word "Minister" for the word " Governor-General".
MR . GUZANA : .and this Government can, by legislation, extend the provisions of that Act to the Transkei .
MR. GUZANA : No , section 1 deals with the word "Minister" and nothing else. It is section 2 which deals with the substitution of "GovernorGeneral" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Which Act? MR. GUZANA : Act No. 67 of 1964.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, my difficulty is that this new clause precedes a Bill that enables this Assembly to legislate on citizens other than the Transkeians . Can the Transkei Government legislate to tax a non- Transkeian, as this enabling Bill solicits today?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not at all . It is not applicable to the Transkei .
MR. GUZANA: It is not applicable and that is why this Government would have to legislate to extend it to the Transkei . . . .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, we are indeed here to legislate for the citizens of the Transkei , but this Act will apply to those people who will come and have labour in the Transkei - that is , contracts in the Transkei . Say, for instance , the dominie comes from de Coligny and he gets people in
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No.
MR. GUZANA : and then amend the legislation as it desires to do so in the present Bill. I shall not force this Government to listen to my arguments, but I think it is my duty to 298.
the Transkei Transkei
and they are
attested in the
tribal authorities now. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : At the beginning of each financial year each tribal authority makes its estimates of expenditure . It may be less in 1964 and more in 1966 , so there is actually no ratio that I can stipulate here. It will only be according to the requirements of that particular tribal authority.
MR . RAJUILI : I think it is becoming a little bit clearer. Does it mean, therefore , that the employer who is a non- citizen of the Transkei can be taxed by the Transkei Government if he wants labour in the Transkei ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He pays the attestation fee required.
MR. GUZANA : Why did the hon . the Minister of the Interior mention tribal authorities as possible beneficiaries under this tax or fee ? Because, purely and simply, he could have said that the money earned accrued to the Transkei Revenue Fund and that is the end of the matter, and then we should see the Government to be what it is - selling labour, ( Laughter) some form of refined slavery. I cannot find the reason why the hon. Minister had to comment on what the Republican Government intends to do with these funds if the intention in his mind was not to have these funds accruing to the tribal authorities.
Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 MR. K.M. GUZANA : You will have to motivate this Clause . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Actually , Mr. Chairman , I have already made remarks on sub-clause 1 (a) . MR . GUZANA : Yes , I told you you talked to clause 2 instead of clause 1.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I agree . Sub- clause (3 ) , makes provision for the main clause of the Bill - namely, the imposition by subsequent legislation of an attestation fee . The fee is related to and based upon the attestation of labour contracts . Because all such contracts are required by law to be attested , an attestation is therefore by its very nature the ideal control for the collection of such fees . The amount of R1 referred to in the sub- clause is merely what is considered to be the maximum fee charged . As pointed out in my second reading speech , this does not necessarily mean that an attestation fee will be imposed in the Transkei . On the other hand , if a fee is imposed it might be deemed advisable , in the light of circumstances existing at the time , to fix an amount of less than R1 . Except for the words " and the fee (not exceeding R1 ) to be paid in respect of each such attestation for the benefit of the Transkeian Revenue Fund by any employer or class or group of employers " the remaining words of the subclause are substantially the same as those which appear in section 23 ( 1 ) (d) of the principal Act . I move the adoption of this clause . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , in moving the second reading of this Bill , the hon. the Minister of the Interior indicated that the funds derived from the attestation fee would accrue to tribal authorities in the Republic. Now, section 2(d) provides for this fee to accrue to the Transkei Revenue Fund . Is it the intention of the Minister that it should accrue to the Transkei Revenue Fund and not accrue to the respective tribal authorities , or is the money to be held in the Transkei Revenue Fund to the credit of Tribal authorities ? What is the position?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, in the last but one paragraph of my policy speech I said, amongst other things , that the revenue so derived will be paid into the Transkei Revenue Fund and thereafter channelled to the tribal authorities in the usual manner. The usual manner , Mr. Chairman , is as I have explained .
MR. GUZANA : But this money is going to benefit the Transkei Government and not the tribal authorities , because the money that is going to be raised by this fee goes pure and simply to the Transkei Revenue Fund. Tribal authorities have been getting money in terms of their annual estimates , but why mention that it will go to the tribal authorities when it is not going to the tribal authorities ? Is this a case of deception again? The money is not going to the tribal authorities - that is what we want the hon. Minister to state , because the money is going to accrue to the Transkei Revenue Fund. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : And be channelled to the tribal authorities.
MR .
GUZANA :
Channelled
in what way?
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: The usual way. MR. GUZANA : The usual way is that tribal authorities submit estimates . GOVERNMENT MEMBER : That is how it is channelled .
MR. GUZANA : They are not going to get any financial benefit because of this money which is accruing to the Transkei Revenue Fund. This is just terminology- cum-deception . That is all.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But it will be channelled in the usual way.
actual position is that the revenue will be paid into the Transkei Revenue Fund and by thus enhancing the fund enable more substantial funds to be paid to the tribal authorities as circumstances occur. Portion of the fund will naturally be used towards financing public services of general benefit to the Transkei as a whole.
MR. GUZANA : It will not be channelled because tribal authorities will be getting their money in terms of the estimates each year. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : With all due respect , Sir , I move the adoption of this section.
MR . GUZANA : What ratio will the Minister use in determining how much of this money has to be credited to a particular tribal authority?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I would like this made clear, Sir. What protection is extended to the labourers so that ifthe attes-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There will be no ratio. The Transkei Government is assisting 299.
got none ?
tation fee is imposed on the employers that fee will not be taken from the wages of the labourers themselves ?
MR. JAFTA : In spite of all the attempts that have been made it remains an isolated country. The only organisations which can at present assist are the BIC and the Xhosa Development Corporation and taking into account the size of the Transkei these are very small . There are no large business enterprises and that is why we want the Government to allow more businesses to be established in the Transkei and to allow more money to come in. The Government is encouraging border industries , but those industries are not sufficient for the needs ofthe Transkei because we want these industries to be situated within the reach of the people of the Transkei . When anyone proposes to open up a business there are certain aspects to be considered. Although I cannot give all the details , I know for a fact that certain raw material is required ; there must be buying power and labour , electricity and adequate water . All I can say , after considering these various aspects , is that the buying power in the Transkei is lacking, but it can be improved . Perhaps the raw materials are not sufficient, but that will also improve. There is adequate labour and water and those are important requirements in starting an industry. That is why the Government should allow more factories to be established here. The Government is inclined to keep all industry under its control , whereas if private capitalists are entitled to open businesses here that will bring more wealth to the Transkei . It will also be noted that in other countries private capitalists promote the standard of business . When this private capital is not allowed , that encourages people to leave the Transkei to look for work outside , whereas if industries were established in the Transkei it would enable people to work at home. We would like to see people staying at home happily with their families , because that is how a nation can grow strong. No one likes to leave their families and live away from them . By establishing more factories here that will reduce the number of people leaving the Transkei to seek work outside . That is why I say the home is more important. All I can say is that the White people do not encourage us to remain with our families . As a result much damage is done , whereas the While people never leave their families. The mother and father are always together .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Did you read the Bill? CHIEF NDAMASE : I would like that point made clear. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is either there or not there . What are you asking ? You are wasting our time .
CHIEF NDAMASE : It is surprising that the hon. Minister says we are wasting time when we are asking for clarification in order that we may make things clear to the people. Will you take note that the employees who go for this employment are in many cases uneducated , and they are often cheated by the employer.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I am under the impression that the House is considering the clauses of the Bill , and that means we are now in the committee stage of the Bill and not at the second reading. I do not see how the question of wages comes into the picture.
MR. GUZANA : The hon. member , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , feels that there is a danger which may arise , from the fact that an attestation fee is charged , that the employer debits the employee . All he needs is to find out whether or not, as the result of the operation of this law, there is provision to protect the uneducated employee . Probably that protection is contained in the repealed law that the Government seeks to amend. ( Laughter ) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, such provision exists in Act 15 of 1911 , but I cannot just off-handedly say which section it is now. But it is provided for there.
Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clause 3 put and agreed to. The long title and the whole Bill put and agreed to. House Resumed
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want the Whites to come and establish their homes in the Transkei ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Bill to amend the Bantu Labour Regulation Act has been accepted by the House without amendment.
MR . JAFTA: They can stay here . That is why I want these businesses to be established in the Transkei , because that will enable us to remain with our families.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will be on Friday, 2nd June , or so soon thereafter.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are speaking like a baby. You have no rights in the Republic.
PRIVATE WHITE CAPITAL IN THE TRANSKEI
says that because he is trying to see that people do not stay with their families . He is not staying with his family and so he wants everybody to be like that. ( Laughter) The Chief Minister should stay with his family at home because it is the man who looks after the customs and traditions . We cannot see why he should come here to town and leave his family at home. (Interjections ) They say there is no need to have industries here . One cannot know everything. Look at places like Welkom and Virginia. They have recently been established and already there are many businesses there .
MR . JAFTA : The hon. the Chief Minister
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. memDers , I move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow private White capital in the Transkei ." Mr. Chairman , I move this important motion because this House knows perfectly well that the Transkei has got no industries .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why has it 300 .
It can easily be done here. CHIEF M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. With regard to what has been said by the last speaker I criticize him very much. He has come here to insult people . He has not come here to Parliament. THE CHAIRMAN : Thank you, that is enough, Chief. MR. JAFTA : In places like Welkom and Virginia industries have recently been started and even here in the Transkei some effort could be made to establish industries . Maybe we can find oil in the Transkei , or perhaps coal . What I am getting at is why should people not be allowed to come and start industries here ? We know for a fact that the Government is afraid of people coming to open up industries , irrespective of colour. (Interjections ) Even if an Indian wants to come and start an industry in the Transkei , that is all right. I wish everybody to be allowed to come in. I think I have explained fully the object of the motion · that anyone who wants to come and start industries should be allowed to come to the Transkei , so that our country can mix well with other countries . There should be no fear that we cannot get some of these industries. The Xhosa Development Corporation and the BIC are making a start , but they are very limited . With those words I wish to ask this House to support the motion. MR. L.A. LUWACA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , although my health does not permit me, I feel that as this is a motion which affects policy I should reply. I move the following amendment:- That all the words after the word " should" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : "not for the present commit itself as to any change of policy regarding the investment of capital in the Transkei . " Mr. Chairman, one wonders what has motivated the hon. member to bring this motion before this House . The question I want to put to the hon. member is whether any White businessmen or industrialists have requested him to make application on their behalf to come and settle in the Transkei , and if there are such persons , could he please mention them when he replies so that we should know who these applicants are - or is he just moving this motion in order to have the favours of certain White people who have had their eyes on the Transkei ? I put this question, Mr. Chairman, because the Transkei has been here for decades and before the passing ofthe Transkei Constitution Act there was no law that stopped any White businessmen from putting up industries in the Transkei. Why should hon. members across the floor champion the cause of the White man, despite the fact that they are well acquainted with the provisions of this Constitution ? Now, in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act the Transkei is reserved for Transkeian citizens only - that is , Bantu persons to the exclusion of Whites. Now, when you invite people to come and invest their properties in the Transkei uncontrolled , you cannot deny them the rights of citizenship. In other words , when you say that the White people should come and have private industries in the Transkei you automatically say they should come and settle here and own properties. (Interjections ) Now I see that the hon. member from Dalindyebo is nodding his head, and it would appear he agrees that they should come and settle in the Transkei.
I do not think, however, that the people he represents would agree with him because the people of the Transkei , or any other Bantu homeland, are not allowed to settle and have properties in the White areas. Now you want to hand over your own country to the White people uncontrolled, without any guarantee that the White people will give you ownership rights in their own areas. (Interjections) The hon. member quotes areas like Welkom and Virginia in the Free State as having sprung up because of industries that have been exploited there . Is he aware that the momen. those industrialists got into the Free State they settled there with their families and have now proprietary rights over that land ? Now, suppose we allowed the White people to come and exploit coal and minerals in Xalanga , for example , and we allowed them to come and settle there without any conditions , will you tolerate the occupation of that country, which now belongs to the Emigrant Tembus , by Whites , while the Emigrant Tembus will not be allowed to settle in the White areas? Mr. Chairman, this side of the House is clear on the policy that is to be adopted in matters of this nature . In 1964, in my policy statement I made it clear that we unequivocally stand for the gradual withdrawal of the Whites from the Transkei , so that this territory can become our own exclusive homeland , and that we firmly rejected the policy of multi-racialism as the result ofthis policy would be that this country would no longer be ours alone , and that the wealth and resources of the Transkei would no longer be reserved and developed exclusively for the Transkei citizens . Now, Mr. Chairman, I think I reiterated that policy in my policy statement in 1967 at the beginning of this session. I made it clear that if White capital would be allowed to flow into the Transkei unchecked it would lead to the exploitation of the Transkei not for the benefit of its own citizens , but for the benefit of the White industrialists . I do not think it is necessary for me to read my policy statement as you have it before you, but I want to warn you, hon. gentlemen, to stop championing the White cause all the time and forget about your own people . P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Hear , hear, THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now, suppose we allowed these White people to come and settle in Umtata, for example. MR .
B.S.
RAJUILI: They are here now.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have our own people now acquiring properties in Norwood across the river, and as I stand here I want to assure you that there are only a few White people who are remaining there and there are several of our own people who have crossed the river and are purchasing properties this side of the river. Now you want people with big purses to come and buy the whole of Umtata , to the exclusion of your own people. We say that we may, in consultation with the Republican Government , allow private White capital on certain conditions . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : In my policy statement, this is what I said: "It could be considered that we could consider a possibility where private White enterprise would be allowed into the Transkei provided that the Government or a Government corporation be given a controlling financial interest therein, that the Government could, under such a scheme, take up shares or 301.
have been refused.
provide 51 per cent of the capital undertakings, and then allow White initiative to establish and run the undertaking . " Then I said : " should such a scheme eventuate it would be essential to lay down a well defined policy and conditions beforehand. I had in mind stipulations concerning (a ) the proportion of White workers to Bantu workers in such undertaking and the gradual withdrawal of the White workers and the progressive advancement of Bantu workers , and the eventual take over of the whole undertaking by the Bantu. " Now, the motion before this Assembly seeks to allow unchecked and uncontrolled private White enterprise to come into the Transkei .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I hope the hon. member from Nyanda will give a chance so that when he replies he will bring forward these points . The Bantu Investment Corporation is not a company where you can take shares . It is a body established solely to initiate industries in order to allow the African people to form themselves into companies and take over the industries. MR. K.M. GUZANA : What does Bantu Investment Corporation mean? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I do not think I am here to define these words . I think you will have to go and inquire from them as to what the meaning is . All I want to give is the reasons why these bodies have been established . Mr. Chairman, it should be clear once and for all that the Transkei is reserved for the African people only.
MR. RAJUILI : I have been trying to see the difference between what you are saying and what the motion asks . THE CHIEF MINISTER : You stand for a different policy. We maintain that the Transkei should belong to the Black people only. I want to make it clear, hon. gentlemen, that the Government of the Transkei acting in conjunction with the Government of the Republic will act in accordance with this piece of legislation - the Transkei Constitution Act. We shall not do anything which will water down the provisions of this Act which have handed over this country to the Bantu people only. We know what you are seeking. We know what your aspirations are . You would like to hand over the Transkei to the White people for nothing. (Interjections ) You say that the Republic belongs to you , unless you do not know what ownership is. If you say you own the Republic you must tell us what piece of land the Bantu people have in the Republic outside the Transkei. You know that by legislation the Bantu people have no land in the Republic whatsoever. You cannot establish your homes in the urban areas of the Republic. The Bantu people live in locations and pay rental to a municipal council . In the Transkei the African people are going to have their homes in the municipal areas and they will be rate-payers . They have got to take over the towns which are occupied by the White people and that is provided for in this Constitution. Now, we cannot encourage any policy which will revert the provisions of this Constitution to the pre- 1963 times when the White people owned the Transkei in spite of your existence . You had no properties in the country . You could not buy land in the Transkei - your own motherland - except in Ncambedlana. I want to make it clear , hon. gentlemen, that we are quite aware that the existence of the Bantu Investment Corporation or the Xhosa Development Corporation may not be sufficient in putting up industries as quickly as we would like to have them, but those bodies are established to assist Bantu industrialists and people who would like to form into companies . (Interjections ) Yes , they will. The position is that they will establish these companies and if you form a company you can take over . (Interjections ) That is the position.
MR. GUZANA : Like the Kruger National Park is reserved for animals . (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : If you want to take it that way you may do so . If you regard yourselves as animals you may take it that way. MR. GUZANA : The principle is the same. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But this side of the House consists of human beings. MR. GUZANA : Chief Tutor told you about them. He said they belong to the zoo. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was not present when Chief Tutor spoke . We can see your intentions , but I do not want to insult you as you have insulted us on this side . (Interjections ) We know what took place in December, 1963. We know that money was collected by the White traders to assist you to come into power. (Laughter) That is why you had a big feast across the Corana River. MR. GUZANA: What about the horse you got? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have to pretend all the time before them that there will ever be a change of policy . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : But unfortunately for you the White people do not speak the same language as you speak today. They understand the policy and they appreciate it . ( Interjections ) I want the mover of this motion when he replies to tell us what firm of industrialists have asked him to come and plead for White industries to be allowed here . I want to repeat that the riches and potential of the Transkei . . .. MR. GUZANA : I think you should substitute "poverty and misery" .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : How many Bantu shareholders are there in the BIC?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: · .should be preserved for the people of the Transkei and that industrial development should rather at this stage be undertaken by the Government , in collaboration with the Republican Government and in collaboration with bodies such as the Xhosa Development Corporation and the Bantu Investment Corporation, until such time as our own people will be in a position to own their own companies . (Interjections ) You thought that no African people could go into the towns and compete with the White man. You go to Idutywa and
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You don't understand the reason why these bodies have been established . These bodies have been established to act in the interests of the Bantu people alone , (Interjections) to start these industries so that when they are established African entrepreneurs can take over , because the Bantu people have not got the capital at present.
CHIEF NDAMASE: There are Bantu people who would like to have shares in the BIC but they 302.
you will find in the main street one of the best shops in the town owned by an African. You go to Cala and an African has recently been given a licence to open a hotel , but you would have those privileges if this Constitution was not passed in 1963, which you say stinks in certain quarters ? (Interjections ) You are enjoying the benefits of this Constitution MR. GUZANA: It is getting somewhat tattered in your hands . THE CHIEF MINISTER : . . .and the moment you go out of this chamber, when you have collected all the money you receive fromthis Constitution, you say it is stinking. You pretend to the White people that you are their protectors . They do not need your protection. They do not need you to come and champion their cause in this House . They have not even sent you to come and bring this motion. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER: When will you say that the Government should consider allowing private Black enterprise in the Transkei ? We have our sons in the Transkei and they are collecting money to come and open industries here. You are behind the times if you say that the African people cannot form companies to come and exploit the riches of the Transkei . What have the Whites actually done for you that you champion their cause like this ? (Interjections ) Are you dividing the people now between Nationalists and other sects ? Have you been sent here to come and fight the Nationalists ? I am telling you that Paramount Chief Poto , Paramount Chief Sabata, Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau and all the other leaders of the Transkei drew up this Constitution. (Interjections ) I was elected to lead the House because of the brains which you do not have . They could never take Luwaca to lead the Transkei because there are times when he is out of his mind. The time has come when you must come and champion the cause of your own people. The whites are surprised at the fools who are championing their cause. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER: In accordance with this Constitution we are championing the cause of our own people , and we are abiding by this Constitution because we are honest . We do not want to mislead the people. You are deceiving the people in your areas. You say you do not like this Constitution, then why have you come here ? ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. Excuse me, hon. Minister, but I think you hadbetter continue after lunch.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. member for Emboland, in his attempt to make himself the protector ofthe Whites in the Transkei , tried to confuse the issue of allowing White capital with the question of
migratory labour. He alleges that the Government encourages migratory labour . He is an old man and I don't want to call him names , but I want to remind him that the Transkei Government has only been in existence for a few years, and migratory labour existed before he was born and up to the time he was elected to this House . It is only after the establishment of the Transkei Government that attempts are now being made to have industries within the borders of the Transkei , and certain bodies have been established by the Government of the Republic to sponsor the establishment of these industries . Now the moment these bodies were established people from certain quarters influenced hon. members across the floor to agitate for White capital to come into the Transkei . But that has only been political agitation . As far as the Government is concerned we know no private businessmen who have come forward to the Government requesting that they be allowed to open industries in the Transkei . Should we have such people we shall discuss with them and put terms on which they can come and have these industries , and we shall do that in collaboration with the Government of the Republic. But we are not going to hand back our people to the White people after we have been lucky enough to get our country back to ourselves . Now, hon. gentlemen, I want to request you to stop this business of playing to the galleries of the White man in order to get importance and be in a position to get accounts easily. (Laughter ) I am surprised at the hon. member for Tembuland , Mr. Raziya . He is running a fleet of buses and he would squeal the moment we allowed White enterprise to get into his route and compete with him . He would squeal to the Government and say we are letting the White people compete with him. We are protecting our land . This is the only area where in South Africa the Africans have citizenship rights. It is only in the Transkei and we became citizens in 1963 in South Africa. You cannot dispute that . To be a citizen of a country you must have the franchise and be in a position also to be voted for and go into Parliament. You say you have been citizens in South Africa. You are deceiving yourselves . You were just like stock. You were mere beasts of certain people. Cattle and sheep have no votes. The people beyond the borders of the Transkei are not citizens because they have no franchise rights . Only now they are beginning to have certain rights which you want to share with the Whites. You say the Whites should live in Umtata and not go away. You want to get into the towns and the Whites object to it, and those are the people you are fighting for. As the Government we have received no requests to establish industries in the Transkei . Will you name the firms which have come to you and asked to establish industries ? We like the Whites , but we want them to live in their own homeland. (Interjections ) We do not love them to the extent that we should have no land . You promise the people that they can come into this Parliament and now they are not coming forward because they realise you have deceived them. A White man threatened a certain person and said that their money had not been refunded , nor had they received all that they had been promised . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Government is clear on its policy and nobody is going to try and dilute our minds . We know what we are about. We are working for the interests of the African citizens . We will see that factories are established in the Transkei , but that will not be to the detriment of the Transkei citizens . Once we invite private uncontrolled White capital you must know that you will not be in a position to check the immigration of the Whites into the Transkei ,
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and the moment they come in in big numbers they will claim their rights . The first right they will claim is representation in this House. They will claim rights to buy land and purchase you out of the Transkei. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
for the people . He prides himself by saying that he wants the Transkei solely for the Bantu people , but he is responsible for the coming into the Transkei of many Europeans . ( Interjections) Proof of that is the fact that when he had a feast at his home he was thanked by being given a white horse with a saddle and bridle . I do not know whether the horse has since died , but it was a gift from the White people . ( Interjections ) He tried to sell the saddle to the hon. member for Fingoland. ( Laughter) It was too expensive to be just given away. If he did not want the White people he would have followed the leader of Basutoland who did not want the White people to come in.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. MR. L.A. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in supporting this motion I will begin by saying that the hon. the Chief Minister has been contradicting himself all the time . If he sincerely does not wish White capital to come into the Transkei , although he may deny the fact but during the life of this very Assembly a skyscraper is being erected in Umtata by the White people. (Interjections) Is that White capital ? So at one time you were so against the Afrikaners that you started an organisation against them.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am not a Communist. MR. LUWACA : I am coming to Communism . You have consented to the BIC coming into the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Speak to the motion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is wrong with the BIC? It is here to assist you .
MR. LUWACA : Now you are convinced and you like them so much that you give them priority.
MR. LUWACA : Thereafter , when you realised that the people did not want this corporation because of its name " Bantu Investment Corporation" which has many interests , then you brought in the Xhosa Development Corporation. This was proof that it was like the foxes in the Bible which were separated at the heads and together at the tails . (Laughter) When we define Communism it means that it has the monopoly, and the BIC buys everything and even buys those who become bankrupt and then take over for themselves. Further , the reason why we have not got White capital in this country •
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What organisation was that? MR. LUWACA: I do not want to mention it but you know what it is. I think the difference between this side and the Government side is that they want to admit a certain section of the Europeans of this country which they favour , and we want to admit any European with capital into this country. I think,, now, to prove that we are working for the people we had a motion a few days ago calling for indirect taxation of the Transkeians in the Republican towns .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: What is White capital?
MR. LUWACA : White capital is money flowing into the country to establish industries to help the Transkei. You don't even mind the position of people having to live apart from their families for so long. We are not going to employ all the people in the Transkei on the roads of the Transkei Government. They will not be all employed in the Forestry Department. If all these people worked close to their families it would be much better . In the Karroo regions where people have large herds of sheep and goats there is something which happens which is similar to what is happening in this House . There is what is called a leader goat which leads the herd , and if the leader of the herd sees the train coming it does not dare cross the line , and if it stops the whole herd stops behind it. If, unfortunately, it crosses the line they all try and they get run down by the train. ( Interjections ) I know that if the hon. the Chief Minister were to put up his hand, you all put up your hands . Perhaps because at one time he was opposed to the Afrikaners he would like me to use the word " voorbok " , or perhaps I should use a different name and call it the "voor-os " . Whatever motion comes from this side of the House the Government side never even looks at it. All they are looking forward to is which side the Chief Minister is voting. ( Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When are you going to speak to the motion? MR. LUWACA: This motion is to bring industries into the Transkei to support the Africans so that they will get work and indirect taxation is a means of bringing money into the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are talking about White capital. MR. LUWACA: A few days after you refused that motion you introduced this Bill on Native labour, which means you are also interested in bringing money to the Transkei. ( Interjections ) You tried first to bring in a body with no head and thin legs which merely ended in the title of the Bill. ( Laughter) First of all , because of the people of the Transkei who are labourers outside the Transkei there is plenty of money which belongs to the Transkei but which goes to the Republican Government. If we had industries in the Transkei all the money from indirect taxation would form part of the revenue of the Transkei . It was mentioned that the income brought in by the labourers from the Transkei who work in the Republic is R9 million . That was mentioned by the hon. the Prime Minister of the Republic when he was here . About two- thirds of that money is spent in the towns ofthe Republic and only a very small amount finds its way into the Transkei . Why don't you realise that all that money should be earned and also spent in the Transkei ? If we allowed White capital to start industries in the Transkei then no money would be spent even in rail fares to the Republic. The hon. the Chief Minister prides himself by saying that he works
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you talking about ? Is that White capital ? MR. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman, what we are advocating is the coming in of money to help the African people , and if capital comes into the Transkei the owners of that capital will follow 304.
too. Why is Volkskas coming here ? It is because you want a certain section of the Europeans to come here , whereas we want all sections . In the past two or three years you told us about the establishment of a coal mine and of the nickel that was to be mined in the Insizwa mountains , the marble in Port St. John's . Did you not want White capital to come and exploit those minerals ? GOVERNMENT MEMBER : What makes you think that? MR. LUWACA : I take it for granted , because you can only exploit it with tickeys and shillings . The reason why all these minerals have not been exploited is because you do not want White capital to flow into the Transkei . You think you will do what no people anywhere in the world have done , living entirely alone here except for the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections ) There were well educated Black people who went into the Savoy Hotel and left you outside . They had confidential talks with the White people and those gentlemen from Malawi considered you "piccaninis" . They did not put you on a footing with any other Prime Minister . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Talk about White capital. This has nothing to do with it. MR. LUWACA : Iam talking about it. You don't want it because you are being spoon-fed with other people's ideas . Once I read a book about a municipal village in Italy. People were so oppressed there by the municipality that one day they had a "bunga " of their own to go and blow up the whole village because they we so fed up. Mind you, that was a municipal village . Most of them had to leave . Are you wanting us now to think that this Government is a glorified municipal village of the Republic ? This Government has no policy of its own except the one it has been given by the Republican Government . What we advocate is that White capital be allowed into the Transkei . ( Interjections ) My hon. Chief Minister did make reference to the Constitution as though it was something which was just created . I do not know whether he thinks that the 1910 Constitution is still operating to this day. The Constitution is made by the people and it can be amended and changes as the people's opinions change. We do not want the hon. the Chief Minister to live in a fool's paradise by thinking that the Constitution cannot be changed. THE
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : member .
CHIEF MINISTER : Change it , then.
MR. LUWACA : I will amend it. I am only waiting for this Cabinet to make room for better people who will not just be told by the Republican Government what to do. I think your trouble is that every one of the Ministers has many advisers in whatever he wants to do . I am often doubtful whether you oppose a thing because of your own private opinion. I only think that you are told to oppose anything, whatever it may be . If you were to meet and discuss this whole thing without the leaders , you would certainly agree that White capital should come into the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment although there is no need for me to speak after the hon. the Chief Minister has spoken so well . OPPOSITION MEMBERS :
amendment, and to ease your consciences because I see now you are getting worried about what I am going to say about you . But one cannot sit down without replying to a few foolish points that have been raised , particularly by the last speaker who made one doubt whether the building of the lunatic asylum in the Transkei was not long overdue, (Laughter) because he seems to be such a fit candidate for that institution. We asked him by way of interjection what White capital was , because he seemed to divert his speech from the capital which we know in hard cash , in the direction of multi- racialism GR that is , the inclusion of White citizens of the Republic in the Transkei - which he knows , of course , is against our policy. We asked him too by way of interjection whether he has exhausted the present resources which are available through the BIC and the Xhosa Development Corporation , because he has no alternative but to admit that he has not even attempted to exhaust those funds . It is just characteristic , of course , of our African people to despise what they have and cry and bay for the sky, which he knows he can never reach, like the dog he is ( Laughter) because a dog will bay at the moon. Now, Sir , the Republican Government was wise enough to make provision for the Transkei , whenever it wanted funds for industry, to approach the Xhosa Development Corporation, and we can never hope overnight to establish industries all over the Transkei , just like you have in Johannesburg or anywhere else in the Republic . All those industries had humble beginnings . They had to plan before and planning is not lacking in the Transkei . It just reminds me what I heard from Dr. Aggrey in 1927 here in Umtata. He said if you cannot get what you want, take what you can get and use that to get what you want. Now, what have we got ? We have the Xhosa Development Corporation; we have got the BIC, we have got our own initiative , for there are capitalists in this House who , if they are given a chance and elbow-room to develop on their own lines , would develop into millionaires , but Luwaca and his henchmen
Sit down , then.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I only rise because I stood up to say that I second the
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The honourable
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , the most hon. member , Mr. Luwaca, despises what we have got, as it is always the case with people like him. He despises his nationality and he will never do anything unless he models himself on the White man. He has been given the freedom to expand right up to the sky at which he bays , but now he is thinking of the shopkeeper whom he owes about a hundred rand. ( Laughter) But I should advise him to refund the money he got from that trader because he will never realise his aim . The hon. the Chief Minister went at length to explain that we are in no difficulty about our policy. The only difficulty is that we have people like the Opposition who always want to dilute our strength by including these communistic ideas , and naturally , because they have got a consideration . They have got that to repay which, of course , they cannot pay in this way because they cannot wreck the Constitution . They cannot do it by working to the detriment of our African enterprise . The hon . member mentioned something about minerals which are not being exploited. I wonder why these minerals have not been exploited since the White man came here , because they had existed then . Minerals do not grow. I wish he would let us know why they have not been exploited . Now, to ease his mind I will tell him that all these plans are afoot and no stone will be left unturned in the Transkei with regard to the development of the
Transkei industrially and economically, and all that is entrusted to the Xhosa Development Corporation, which has unlimited funds which will never be exhausted even if all the people apply for help. Now, you speak of industries which are going to stop people from migratory labour . Of course , that is the policy of this Government , but it cannot be done overnight, Sir. Even in all countries there has always been migratory labour of some sort, even in Europe . You find that people come from certain countries , especially in regard to certain industries , and they go to other countries to work, but they are not entitled to citizenship in those countries . So I just want to disabuse his mind in regard to these migrant labourers and I want to tell him the difference between the BIC and XDC . The Bantu Investment Corporation is an investment corporation encouraging industries and , of course, it must, as a corporation, be able to survive. It must charge interest, otherwise how would it pay its way? And this BIC, to all intents and purposes is for the benefit of you people. I see the reason why you have such spite against the BIC, because most of you have been trusted by the BIC , but unfortunately you have misappropriated the funds . ( Interjections ) I think you are one of them , if my information is correct. (Laughter) I am just saying that why you are so against the BIC is because you think it is going to give you this money and spoon-feed you, but it has certain regulations which you must follow because it is a business concern, and if you keep the regulations and work, it will see you through as it has done for scores of people who are honest and who have appreciated the help they have been given, and not screamed for White capital , some of which, of course , is known to come from Russia . I wonder ifyou take money from Russia ? Well , I have no objection to that, but not from the Transkei . Now, the Xhosa Development Corporation, on the other hand , is a paternal institution. It is non-profit making. It is a development corporation . It develops and ploughs the profits back into the ground . Why do you complain about that ? Eventually, if they start a business in Umtata, say, or in Butterworth, where they are going to start that enterprise they will eventually give it back to the Africans . Those of you who deserve to be will be appointed directors , but not overnight. You have to be trained , and in the long run, in the foreseeable future , the whole complex will be managed by the black people . Now, why clamour for White capital ? Can you tell me whether it is because you are going to get it free? But then there is provision even for White capital. The hon. the Chief Minister explained where the Government must have a controlling hand, with the understanding that ultimately the whole concern will be handed over to the Transkei citizens . Now where is your complaint , Mr. Jafta? What is this White capital you want, or do you want the owner of the White capital ? Now, coming to the physical aspect of multiracialism , where the mover unashamedly said he would like to share the Transkei with the White people , he was so stupid as to admit that he had no share at Welkom, but he would share this with the White people who have all the shares at Welkom and Virginia . By way of interjection I said he should make an experiment and take his wife with him and get a site at Welkom , and when he had that site we would go and see him. He did not promise to do that, but I assure him that the land he vacates in the Transkei will not be given to that local trader there , because I suppose the chief who is looking at me now and worrying about land - I do not think he is willing to give Mr. Matthys , the White man in his ward , ten
acres of land even if his people would allow it. Now, winding up , Mr. Chairman, I shall ask the members on the opposite side to come down to reality. There has been a great struggle throughout Africa caused by the winds of change or liberation of some sort, and , of course , bloodshed has occurred because it is not always avoidable in such a struggle , but through the mercy of the loving God we worship, such bloodshed was avoided in the Transkei except on a very, very small scale . All this was done amicably through the grace of the living God, and so we were given freedom - one step to independence which we must appreciate , and put right whatever we can put right, and go forward . Now you people say we should put the clock back to pre1963 and mix up so that we should not have these privileges that are solely reserved for the Transkei citizen. One wonders whether you are sincere. I will finish the story in two minutes , Mr. Chairman. Once sheep were killed by a jackal and a merciful shepherd put a net wire round the kraal so that they could graze without fear of the jackal , and when they came there they appreciated the green verdure of the veld , but some of them who I liken to the hon. Mr. Jafta and Mr. Luwaca said : Now, we cannot eat all this green grass , let us call some of the jackals from outside the fence so that we can enjoy this green grass together. Now, were those sheep very wise ? Do you think those jackals had lost their teeth when they came to that flock of foolish sheep ? Now, have the White people lost their wisdom to lead ? Where would you be if Mr. Hughes were there now? How far behind him would you be ? ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHAIRMAN : Before we adjourn for tea, the Secretary has a few announcements .
THE SECRETARY : Owing to the resignation of Chief Tambekile Matanzima , a vacancy occurred in the parliamentary representation in respect of Emigrant Tembuland region . A college of chiefs of the area was therefore convened on the 25th May, 1967 , to decide which chief should succeed Chief Tambekile Matanzima in the Legislative Assembly. The result was the election of Chief Vulindlela Mfengwana Matanzima who was sworn in on Friday, 26th May, 1967. It is regretted that the House was not informed of the circumstances at the time . The second announcement is that the National Film Board is here to make a film about the Transkei and wishes to film the House in session. They will, however, erect lights , etc. , which will disturb the normal sitting, so members should please be seated by 10.30 for the film to be taken till 11 a.m. Thereafter the members will leave the Assembly to enable the film company to remove their equipment. The bells will ring again when we are ready to resume. PRIVATE WHITE CAPITAL IN THE TRANSKEI The debate was resumed. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the aim of this motion is to help the Black man not to starve , for at the present time the Bantu are regarded as the poorest section of all the people in this country. What is the cure to stop people from starving ? The only cure is to find employment for all the people who lack employment. There are people in the Transkei who are often returned to the labour centres where they have come from, because of 306.
famine conditions in the Transkei and if my chiefs oppose this motion it is because they want the people to remain hungry and unemployed. My chief across there says he has nothing to do with the labour bureaux and that makes it clear he has nothing to do with preventing the people from starving . (Interjections ) According to one of the newspapers the Deputy Minister for Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. Coetzee , said to the Secretary for Bantu Administration that it was most necessary that outside capital should flow into the Transkei , and the Honourable Prime Minister of the Republic also mentioned this fact. (Interjections ) This proves that all the important people in the Government of this country constantly talk about this question. This idea of allowing capital to flow into the Transkei is not a new idea. THE capital.
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION :
White
CHIEF NDAMASE : Already White capital is coming in through the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Xhosa Development Corporation . I say this because that is white capital flowing from the Republican Government. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What about conditions ? CHIEF NDAMASE : You are a Government which ought to make regulations in regard to all capital coming into the Transkei . The First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act permits the Government to make laws and regulations governing and controlling all finances coming into the Transkei. If you do not know that, just open your Constitution and read section 21 of the First Schedule . What we want is money and it does not matter from where .
schools for the Bantu people. Do you think they will have to go to the Urban areas in order to use what knowledge they have acquired ? If you do not allow the inflow of capital , what will be done by the people who have been trained in your technical schools ? ( Interjections ) You do not even know how to use your policy of separate development about which you make so much noise, while we are talking about bread and butter policies . You will have it that we are separated from Western civilizations , while we want to be part of Western civilization. We don't want Communism in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Where do you draw the line ? CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Chief Minister said at one time that we had got our land back. We have no land which actually belongs to us . The tax which we pay is really a rental for the land. We are in this parliament with the specific purpose of making laws to stop White people from buying the land and to enable Bantu people to purchase land . According to your policy of separate development you force us to go to the Europeans when they do not want us to mix with them in their areas . (Interjections) You are encouraging hatred among the people of this land. Let us not regard this motion in the light of political differences which we hold. Let us try all we can to reduce the number of unemployed people . Let us not lean only on the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Xhosa Development Corporation. We do not say they are at fault. We only regret that they do not allow Bantu shareholders in those organisations . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You can invest in the BIC.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Even this Transkei Government is not a shareholder in those organisations . Do you happen to be an investor in the BIC, Sir ? The hon. member across the floor asks whether I have ever seen a Government undertaking. Is the South African Bantu Trust not an undertaking of the Government? Is the South African Native Trust not a shareholder in the Bantu Investment Corporation? If it is a shareholder, aren't they taking part in trading ? All we are advocating is that it must help build up the economic standard of the Bantu people . We have self-government in the Transkei so that at a certain time we will be able to govern ourselves . To be able to attain that independence , however , we will have to be taught how to run the government financially. Let us be permitted to become shareholders in those organisations . It appears that you have no interest in these organisations because of the high salaries paid to you . I would like you to think of the people in the Reserves because we want to provide channels of employment for them in the Transkei. May I appeal to the hon. Ministers to attend to what I am going to say. (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You said "White capital " .
CHIEF NDAMASE: The reason why we refer to White capital is because only the White people have money. We do not want capital from Russia. You want the BIC and the Xhosa Development Corporation to be the only corporations to bring money into the Transkei . Those are bodies supported by the Government . You oppose the inflow of private capital because you do not want anything to compete with the Bantu Investment Corporation or the Xhosa Development Corporation. How are we going to help the people , therefore , if you oppose any competition ? In the Republican Government's Hansard I read that Sir de Villiers Graaff said that foreign capital flowing into the Republic is in the neighbourhood ofR300 million , and what we are asking for in this motion is none other than that type of capital. That foreign capital has reduced the number of unemployed Europeans in the Republic . There are industries in the Republic belonging to the German people , under the direction and managership of the English and Dutch people of this country. Seeing that the Republic allows this type of thing, why is it that you do not allow it in the Transkei ? This motion is concerned with the stomachs of the people . ( Interjections) We are leaving aside your policy of separate development and are thinking of the stomachs of the people . The people are hungry and they want employment. When the Nationalists took over the government of the country they restricted importations in order to encourage the people resident in the Republic to produce the goods , rather than order them from outside . In your budget you have advocated the erection of technical
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEF NDAMASE : In the most civilized country, England , there was an occasion when the labourers surrounded the Houses of Parliament to urge the Government to find employment for them. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is just babbling in order to make a noise . We would ask 307.
vehicles and the drivers of vehicles in the Transkei and the regulation and control of road traffic and to provide for matters incidental thereto.
him to keep quiet , please.
CHIEF NDAMASE: It is not surprising that he acts as he does.
TRANSKEI LABOUR LAWS AMENDMENT ACT : THIRD READING
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I beg to move that the Bill to amend the Bantu Labour Regulations now be read a third time .
CHIEF NDAMASE : The way he behaves here tells us exactly what he is at home . I was trying to show that the purpose of this motion is to try and enable the people to earn a good living and to find employment at home. We are not saying anything about the White people . We are only thinking of the stomachs of the Bantu people. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
The Bill was read a third time . PRIVATE WHITE CAPITAL IN THE TRANSKEI
CHIEF NDAMASE: I appeal to the House to discuss this matter not so much along political lines . The hon. the Chief Minister did mention that it was one of the things they are thinking of, to establish industries in the Transkei , and the short-cut to that is to permit external capital to come into the Transkei and start industries .
The debate was resumed . MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to preface my remarks by some reference to what has been said on a matter something like this some three years back. I will ask the members to refer to page 202 of the Debates and Proceedings of this Assembly, 1964 , where the hon . the then Minster of Justice had this to say when seconding a motion by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase on the establishment of factories . He goes on to address the Chair and says : " I stand up to second the motion. Once again we are ad idem with our friends across the floor. " He continues with regard to the industries being set up in the Transkei and not on the borders and then he went further to quote the hon. the Chief Minister on that score . In fact, the hon. the Chief Minister himself, in amending this motion and in objecting to it, said amongst other things that it could be not for the present, which means , in actual fact, that he is not against the motion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that this matter was referred to in my policy speech and we had sufficient opportunity to debate it , I do not think we should waste time repeating ourselves on it. I think the mover of the motion can reply and that will be sufficient. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are wasting the time of the House . L MR. GUZANA : You have had your say - let others have theirs. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The matter was sufficiently canvassed in my policy speech.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What do you want to substantiate by quoting what I said?
MR. GUZANA : Why did you speak again then?
our
MR. RAJUILI: What I want to substantiate is that the motion wants to put into effect the establishment of factories .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are wasting time speaking on this , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am greatly perturbed by a certain practice in this Assembly. The members do not seem to be prepared to attend the sessions , and yet they start complaining when their sessional allowance is withdrawn. All the same I am compelled to withhold their allowances if they are not prepared to attend. I will be obliged tomorrow to order a roll call if this continues . We shall now adjourn until 10.20 a.m. tomorrow for the film to be taken.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Nobody has denied that factories must be established . MR. RAJUILI: Right, Sir . We are agreed that we want to see factories established in the Transkei , but you cannot establish factories by wishful thinking . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : One is going to be established in Butterworth by factual thinking .
FRIDAY , 2ND JUNE , 1967
MR . RAJUILI : We are aware of the good wishes to everybody on the Government side , even the hon. members over there who never know just where they are in matters of this kind. The hon. the Chief Minister once remarked that no one would encourage migratory labour even to the border areas. Now, unfortunately I do not remember seeing the Chief Minister fail to place the case as he hopelessly could not find his feet yesterday. He lowered his dignity. We are aware of the difficulties that he conceives in this matter. If factories could grow up like mushrooms overnight , he would be the happiest man.
The Assembly resumed at 11.45 a.m.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to give notice that on Monday, the 9th June , 1967 , I intend to introduce a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the licensing and control of 308.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not possible.
says we must tell them to apply. People won't do that without knowing what provisions there are for them to do so. If we can agree to have them come in and then make provision for that, you will have so many of them you will not be able to know with whom to start.
MR. RAJUILI: That's right, that is why I put a condition. Now he is aware that the problem confronting his Government at the moment is because there can be no employment of people in the Transkei . He is aware that it would solve the most sore point of the "kierie " hanging over his head, of the people being sent from the Republic to the Transkei . Now, we are saying that in order to solve that problem which is beyond him and his Government and some of his members O in fact they are just concerned with getting into their offices and they do not know the problems confronting the Chief Minister. The hon . the Chief Minister and some of the reasonable men ( if there are any in the Cabinet) are well aware that they could not control the border industries because they will be in the Republic of South Africa . I have more than once , by way of interjection , asked the Chief Minister if he would like to have industries in the Transkei , and every time straight away , without hesitation , it was "yes" . (Interjections) Yes, some stupid person that side says "yes " . It is useless to keep on saying "yes" without getting the thing done. Now we are seeking means by which these wishes can come to fruition, even at the expense (as an unwise Minister says ) of you life . The hon . the Chief Minister , in failing to state his case , says how can we allow capitalists to come here and grab the land in the Transkei . We are not saying that. (Interjections ) Is this Government so inefficient that they do not know what to do when a thing like that comes about ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where have they been all this time? MR. RAJUILI : They have been there all this time , but there has been nothing to entice them to come to the Transkei , because there was no set-up in the Transkei as we want. What should entice them is that there is need to develop the Transkei . There was no need before and that is why they did not come. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There has always been need. MR. RAJUILI: What we want , if those Ministers would not try deliberately to mislead the people by saying what we do not say .... (Interjections ) What we are saying is that we are not irresponsible and that we are not saying the White people must come and grab the land. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is what you are saying.
MR. RAJUILI : There is another logical consequence about it, because we expect the Government to control the capital that comes in. We do not expect it to be uncontrolled . We should not expect that from a reasonable officer like the Chief minister. We are saying that the Government will go into the economics of the arrangements in regard to this capital .
MR . RAJUILI : No one from this side of the House , reasonable as we are , would ever dare to say that. The Bantu Investment Corporation they talk about I am almost certain they themselves are not satisfied with what it is doing. The fact that there should be some phraseology such as " not for the present " shows that it is not an outright " no" . The only thing is , there is stupidity in front of them at the moment that they do not know how to meet what we are saying. You cannot depend on the people you cannot control to develop your country, more so because it is clear that the Republican Government has in no uncertain terms said they are concentrating on the borders of the Transkei. They cannot even put up a pig industry in the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are talking nonsense - economics in the arrangements .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You remember I said you would be the first pig to be slaughtered? ( Laughter)
MR. RAJUILI : So he is trying to mislead these people. They are saying they are like cows and sheep . He says we are trying to give the Transkei to the White people. We are not saying that. He tried to tell us that the BIC and XDC are there. We do not say they are not doing anything, but they are doing very little . We do not even know they are there .
MR. RAJUILI : There is a better pig there to start with. Why try and deliberately misinterpret a motion which nobody opposes ? Why should a Government turn down suggestions as to how to start industries ? (Interjections ) You have no way of establishing industries except what you can get from the Republican Government, so if your difficulty is lack of applications from people to come and help your little state , and you unwisely said that you do not even know them , but we do know they have got what you would like to see here .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is a logical consequence of your promotion.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are there any White capitalists who have asked you to do this? MR. RAJUILI : Nor are we saying that the White capitalists must come and buy us out. Where shall we go ? We say the Transkei should be developed faster , (Interjections ) whether it be on the 51 per cent he was talking about which should be the share of the Government. Here we say the people have nowhere to go. They are starving. The people should be allowed to work in the Transkei instead of having these border industries , which we do not want.
THE
CHIEF MINISTER : Let them apply.
MR. RAJUILI: They will apply when they know that if they do , the conditions will be this and that. So with this explanation I want the chiefs to understand that the hon. the Chief Minister is not against this motion. He only says "not for the present" , but we are trying to inject into him better reasoning , which I know you understand better than he does.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Tell the industrialists to apply.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the motion seeks to introduce capital into the Transkei.
MR . RAJUILI : The hon. the Chief Minister 309 .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : White capital . MR. GUZANA : First of all, it is an admission that there is not any capital of any consequence which is in the control of Africans . (Interjections) I have not been to the bottle store , and I ask you to keep quiet. ( Laughter) It is conceded that those who have the money are the White people in South Africa , and in admitting that fact we neither make any difference between the English and the Afrikaner. All we seek is the capital to give some financial injection to the very sluggish economy of the Transkei . We have noticed that certain efforts have been made since the establishment of this Government, to establish certain industries in the Transkei , but what are they ? We have had the meat industry , and I have pointed out previously that the idea of a meat factory in the Transkei is as old as 1952 and what has been realised today is not the baby of this Government. There is the Vulindlela factory now taken over by the Xhosa Development Corporation, and that factory is engaged primarily in making second- rate furniture for schools . Whilst one should concede that these men can make their joints properly, they are using the cheapest type of timber possible and the hon. the Chief Minister, when he opened his new wing at Tolofiya , did not place an order with the Vulindlela Factory for furniture . It is therefore an admission that such a furniture factory as we have in the Transkei does not cater for the better taste that has been acquired by many of us for good furniture . There is a miniature decorticating factory at Butterworth; there is a weaving factory in Umtata ; but we will realise and we will concede that these are infinitesimal efforts to tackle a very big problem. The BIC cannot be looked to as a body that will really give impetus to the development and establishment of factories in the Transkei , and let me point out quite early that factories are not the only undertaking which is going to bring White capital into the Transkei. True enough, they will supply places of labour, places of work, places of employment near the homes of the labourers , and that is most welcome in the Transkei , and if the hon. the Chief Minister feels that capitalists should apply then I think he must place his cards on the table . I would challenge him to state to this House what conditions there are which have been laid down for the introduction of White capital into the Transkei for the establishment of factories . Is he speaking glibly about 51 per cent control of these factories without a clear memorandum of agreement which would be entered into between this Government and a White capitalist who wants to come into the Transkei ? The industrialist who is going to invest a lot of capital in the Transkei must know beforehand what the conditions are and this Government must lay down the conditions so that they are clearly known and there is no doubt as to what they are . In this way we shall be able to entice capitalists into the Transkei . As things are at the present moment , who knows what the conditions will be ? In other words , if the Government is sincere in inviting capital into the Transkei then it must take the first positive step to say we will allow White capital into the Transkei in terms of such and such an agreement, and that here it is. It is available to any White capital. If the Government cannot do that then we are bound to doubt their sincerity in shouting that they want White capital in the Transkei , and have done nothing to show in what way it will come in. We would like White capital to come into this Transkei in another way. How often do we hear it over Radio Bantu that we
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should invest in this building society, that building society and the other building society? How often have we been advised to invest our moneys with the various banking concerns ? I think it must be conceded that the African is thrift-conscious and from his very small wage he is able to save something for the future . Now what happens to the money in these building societies and in the banking concerns ? · Because immediately it is invested by an African it is controlled by a White body and that money goes out of the Transkei to be used for development purposes outside the Transkei . In effect, when we say White capital should not get into the Transkei , we are saying African capital invested with White business concerns must be used outside the Transkei for the benefit of people outside the Transkei , rather than for the benefit of the people inside the Transkei. I submit that those African savings are White capital and why cannot that capital be used in the Transkei and be invested in the Transkei , since it comes from the African himself who has passed on its control to the White business concern? I believe on Tuesday , most of you took your parliamentary allowance and deposited it with the Post Office Savings Bank, or with a building society , or with a banking concern. Where is that money going to be used? Won't it be used in Cape Town, in Port Elizabeth, in East London and elsewhere ? You may ask how is it going to be used . A European or African in Port Elizabeth raises a loan with the building society and has a mortgage bond passed over his property to secure the loan of R2,000 or R3,000. That individual is able to give a financial boost to his business or is able to put up a decent dwelling house for himself. That is your money and my money which is doing that. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Tell us how you would divert that money to the Black areas ? MR. GUZANA : This is how you will divert it : If I want to buy property in Norwood without going to the BIC I can go to the building society and the money you invested with the building society, and the next man invested with the building society, is used in the Transkei to build me a house in Norwood. The contractor is an African and he employs Africans and is able to provide bread and butter for a number of families . In other words , from the financial pool to which the African, the Coloured , the Indian, the White has contributed , the African is able to draw in order to put up his building. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is it possible for the African to have a say in the running of the building society? MR. GUZANA: You ask if it is possible for the African to have a say in the running of a building society. If I remember clearly the Old Mutual will circularize its shareholders for the nomination of directors so that they do have a say as shareholder , and there is no greater say than that you should be able to raise a loan with these building societies and use the money in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : As far as I can remember, the " Mutual " asked Africans to vote for a European director and not a Black one . MR . GUZANA: Have you ever asked the Old Mutual whether or not an African cannot be nominated ? You cannot say so because if you are eligible you can be nominated , and the share-
holders asked to cast a vote for you . Now , that capital does not come back to the Transkei because before a building society makes a loan and has a mortgage over immovable property we have to have the permission of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, and that permission is never given. I have experience of people who have sought to raise loans with building societies to buy property in Norwood, and six months passed ; twelve months elapsed, until the man gives up the proposition and the seller sells to somebody else . You see , in this regard the exclusion of White capital has rendered immovable property actually valueless to the African. What is the use of my owning property valued at R5,000 or R6,000 if I cannot on the turn raise an amount against that property of R2,000 or so ? Is it worth while buying property valued at R5,000 when that money is tied up in that property and the property cannot be used to make cash immediately available to me ? I have been told that immovable property is a wise investment. I think there is a question to be asked at the present moment as to whether or not immovable property is a wise investment for the Transkei citizen. In other words , you are asking the African to buy immovable property and undermining the value of that property, because it should be good security which it is not at the present moment. It has been suggested that if White capital is allowed into the Transkei it will be used to exploit the African , and that the nebulous riches and invisible wealth of the Transkei will be drawn out of the Transkei . Can we honestly say that there are riches in the Transkei ? Can we honestly say that there is wealth in the Transkei ? Won't wealth come from external investment of capital in the Transkei ? Is it not true that a man may easily establish a wireless factory in Umtata and bring the light raw material into Umtata for Africans to manufacture these things ? Isn't there adequate room for light industry in the Transkei ? Can we not have a match-making industry in the Transkei ? I cannot see how these things can be done unless we allow White capital to come into the Transkei , and therefore there is nothing to be exploited . Rather , I see the introduction of White capital as an injection to the dormant economic condition ofthe Transkei .
people of the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Will they put up these factories in the sky? Won't they put them on land and want title to that land? MR. GUZANA : They will put up the factories on land .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And their residences ? MR. GUZANA: They will put up their residences .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And have title to land? MR. GUZANA : And they will have title to land. And what is this opposition against the White man having title to land ? We have title in the Ciskei to immovable property. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where ? MR. GUZANA: You don't need to grumble . You go right into Keiskamahoek and you will find property owned by my father. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That was before the passing of the Land Act. MR . GUZANA : You go to Zinokwe and you will find a farm owned by my late father. I can quote people having title to land outside the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER : That was before the passing of the Land Act in 1913. MR , GUZANA : My father bought those places in 1923 , if you want to know. Let us not deceive the people and tell them that no Africans own property outside the Transkei . There are innumerable Africans who do. It has been asked again why there is so much keenness to get Europeans into the Transkei when they did nothing before. If I have to explain and answer this question, I will say this : This is a developing country, beginning from scratch, and there has been a gradual development of the Transkei up to the present moment with White capital . Now you have got your eyes glued on the towns because they have been developed by White capital and you are covetously looking at them. Is that not White capital which has been developing the country to the stage it in has reached ? Now you have got it stagnant fact, it is not stagnant, it is retrogressive . I was answering a question, Mr. Chairman, and I have not exhausted my facts. I could speak for another hour because the hon. the Chief Minister made a political hanger out of this motion , while we are trying to concentrate on bread and butter. You may be the loser at the moment, but what is your son going to say about you, and your son's son, when he says : My father lost his chance of development. If you argue against White capital you are arguing against the development of the Transkei , and this country will become stale and stagnant. Now, hon. gentlemen, go and have your meal with white forks and white knives and white bread on white tables . Why don't you go and sit next to the stock kraal and have your food brought to you on an eating mat? (Laughter )
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, it is just 1 o'clock and you have five minutes more . MR . GUZANA : I think I have more than that. THE CHAIRMAN : No , you have been speaking for 25 minutes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think we should allow him to finish his speech. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it has been suggested that if White capital is allowed to come into the Transkei , then the Whites will buy up the whole country. I think that is indicative of irresponsibility, because if there is a responsible Government it will guard against that sort of thing. The purpose of inviting White capital into the Transkei is not to expropriate or displace the African , but to make for development of both the White and the Black in the Transkei . That is the purpose . And how does a bee make its honey ? It samples all the flowers , the sweet and the sour , the poisonous and the non- poisonous , and produces the sweet honey that you like , and that is what this side seeks this Government to understand - that it must draw capital from various sources so that it will make the honey that will feed the
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
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The debate on the introduction of White capital into the Transkei was resumed .
time was pretty low in connection with school books for the children, clothing , medical expenses , etc. As regards material for dresses , you could buy material at that time for 3 cents a yard. A blanket that was worn by the head of the family cost about R2 each and at that time there were no garments more expensive than that. The value of stock also was not so high. You paid about R2 for a heifer and for R6 you could get quite a good well -fed beast . On that account, although the wages were faily low, it was possible to save enough money to buy stock. People ate thick milk and they went to carry out their daily work well fed . They each had a span of oxen to plough their own plot of land , and they did not need to buy food as they do today. If we really want to tell the truth, in those days the labour parties on the roads used to sing happily as they worked on the road - a thing which is not found today. On the whole the health of the people was very fair. There was no malnutrition or "kwashiorkor " as a result , and at the present time although the people are paid 50 cents a day they still meet a great deal of difficulty because the cost of living is very high. The 50 cents a day is so small that it does not seem to help them at all . The children are not well fed and neither are the parents , in spite of the 50 cents a day. A member on the opposite side spoke in this strain. He said that the people who are employed within the vicinity of their homes need not get a high wage because they live close to their families. To me it appears that it is most necessary that these people should work close to their homes , because then they can bring an appreciable share of their wages home . Today the labourers on the road cannot even think of buying a beast which cost about R40 a head. Reference was made to the wages of labourers elsewhere in this Assembly. However, we inthe Transkei ought to find a wage level which is encouraging. Many of these labourers work so far from their homes that they use a large part of their low wage in getting transport to and from the work point. In wet weather or during the holidays they are paid no wages. An hon. member on the other side quoted Dr. Aggrey and said that a person should use what he has. The only source of employment in the Transkei is in the making of dams and reservoirs and on the roads , and therefore we ought to pay people a reasonable wage for that work. I think it should be our main concern to consider the position of the people in the Reserves , for on our return from this Assembly they want to know what it is we discussed in relation to their needs at home . (Interjections ) In reference to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry, whose Minister is making remarks which I cannot understand , may I make it clear to him that we who are members of the " Zenzele " Club help a great deal in encouraging people to favour his Department. The aim of the Zenzele group is to have the whole garden run by women , and I am a member of that club. If you are a member of that club your important duty is to teach those who have no knowledge. We take pains to teach those who do not know because it is one of the outstanding rules of that club not to exalt oneself. One outstanding thing which I would like noted is that according to the rehabilitation scheme it is necessary that the area be fenced. I am actually resident in one of these rehabilitated areas. It is very difficult for us to help the people in these rehabilitated areas because they have not got the fences to put round their home gardens. I would like the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to change his views in this regard and not just to take what he is told. I think this motion is very clear and I hope we will all be unanimous in
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the mover to reply. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to reply to the debate on my motion, to the effect that White capital should be allowed to enter the Transkei. I was aware of the great need when I introduced this motion because the people of the Transkei suffer a great deal from famine and they have no way of getting out of the Transkei . I had hoped that influx control would not have so much effect if the people could be employed at home . Everything has been made so clear that I need not add much to what has been said. Even the questions that were directed to me by the hon. the Chief Minister have been answered by the different speakers . For that reason I do not think there is any need for me to say anything further. I noted from the speech of the hon. the Chief Minister that he was in agreement with me , except that when one says something people do not always want to agree . I do not think there is any need to reply to what the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said when he said that if I and my wife went to Welkom we would not find anywhere to live . We made it quite clear what we want, excepting that you may perhaps be in the way of it. We do not expect that if the door is shut against us the Government will go and actually lock it and even put bolts on the door to make it firmer . I do not wish to say anything further except to ask the whole House to support this motion. THE SECRETARY: The question before the House is a motion by the hon. member for Emboland, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister . I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the motion. The words proposed to be ommitted are deleted by 29 votes to 46. The words proposed to be substituted are agreed to by 46 votes to 30.
The motion as amended was agreed to by 46 votes to 30. INCREASE IN WAGES : ROADS DEPARTMENT AND FORESTRY LABOURERS MISS L. TWETWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of raising the wages of labourers connected with the Department of Roads and Works and Agriculture and Forestry to the minimum of R20 per month." THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you the Treasurer? Where is the revenue coming from ?
MISS TWETWA: This motion is very clear , Mr. Chairman - clearer that I can make it clear , because its purpose is to try and raise the wages of the labourers in the Departments of Roads and Agriculture , and in the tea plantations. This follows on a motion referring to the White people which worried the members on the other side. This motion , however , refers to the Black people only. Let us now think back to the time of the Bunga when the labourers on the roads earned only 25 cents a day , and consider the living conditions of the time . The cost of living at that 312 .
supporting it.
can get twelve days ' full leave and 18 working days ' full pay sick leave and also 18 working days on half pay for sick leave . Now I am just quoting these figures to show • • ••
MR. T.H. BUBU: I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move an amendment and before I speak to it I think I should give it to you as it is: "That all the words after the word ' Government' be deleted and substituted with the words 'be complimented on its positive approach to wage and salary structures within the Government Service '. " Now, Mr. Chairman, I had wondered why the Opposition gave this motion to a lady. I have just found out that it is because she is so able to plead with me, although unsuccessfully, (Laughter) but I think on that score they have erred in thinking that at my age I can be moved simply by a lady, to convert from my viewpoint. I say that with no prejudice to what she has said, except to tell you that you have made a mistake here because I think the motion could have been given to an abler speaker - perhaps the member from Soweto who is nearly my match at speaking. Now, Sir, coming seriously to the motion, I will not hurt the lady so she need not be afraid because it is not our custom to clamp very much on ladies , but she reminds me of the Biblical Delilah who was sent to subdue Samson -but I think I will be too wise for her in this case . (Laughter) Now, coming to the motion, she says that the minimum wage she is asking the Government for is R20 a month. I wonder if she has calculated what that would mean to the economy of the Transkei ? While she has a motion for the reduction of taxes , she has a motion for the raising of wages to astronomic heights for labourers at any rate . I would advise her that in fixing these wages the Government has a certain plan a wage structure for each department , and just for the sake of comparison I will give you statistics to show you how that happens . I will compare the present Government wage structure with that of its predecessor , the T.T.A.
MR. RAJUILI : ...how bad the situation is. (Laughter ) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am talking to the lady. Now, Sir , just before I was disturbed by the Soweto " tsotsi ", I was trying to show the House what additional cost it would involve the Transkei in if this motion by the hon. lady was taken seriously by the Government. At present the two Departments she specified employ a total of at least 4,220 female labourers and 10,140 males and 28 youths , which gives us a total wage bill of approximately R2,235,000 . Now if we were to consider her suggestion for any purposes at all, this would entail an additional R2 million just for the wage bill. Now, where would you get that money? Which Vote will he debit to credit the labour Vote? And, of course, labour is a very costly affair in these days because in every project the most important item is labour , and it must be manual labour. Now, what is going to happen if we have not got the money to pay R20 to a male adult , and the essential services are there? Don't you appreciate the fact that it would necessitate curtailing the labour force ? Or it would result in more mechanisation which , of course , would be working against your request. You would then have to employ fewer men and pay them better. Now I leave it to you to choose , and I wish in her reply she would just mention what she is going to do with the redundant labourers whom we cannot find the money to pay; and also what is her yardstick of how a labourer should behave , or what amount of efficiency is required from a labourer to be paid R20 a month for a start. Is efficiency calculated in her estimation ? Is the necessity of the project or of the services being done reckoned in asking for so much money? And I also want to point out that this 50 cents is hardly ever paid to a labourer. It is a minimum because the Government is so generous that if a man who has got a family, or who has had to work elsewhere for a period of five years , we reckon those five years as notches above the 50 cents minimum . So you must keep all those things in consideration when asking the Government for money. In fact , there is not a single labourer in my plantations who is paid a minimum and if the hon. lady went there I think I should give her five notches above the minimum wage , if she chose to go to my plantation to work, because I reckon she is going there after 1968 because she will not return to this House ( Laughter) and that is why she is looking round for something she can tell the people she has done for them , so that they will return her to the House . (Interjections) These members of the Opposition, including the hon. lady , never go to the electorate unless there is a by-election pending and then they get the treatment they got at Cala the other day because they are asking for it. The people at Cala asked where they had been all the time , so hon. members of the House , I do not think I should waste time trying to show the impossibility of this motion because , after all , as I have said, in the attempt to camouflage the weakness that has been going on for the past four years , where you have remained dormant and ineffective in trying to run the Government, I think if you have worked for any people at all you have worked for the White ladies at Qumbu, if they have asked you to , and sold them those vegetables from your Zenzele gardens , because I do not see how Zenzele could figure in a motion like this . You
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: But they were not a Government. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , people were at any rate working as labourers . Now in pre -December, 1963, the males got 30 cents rising by what, I don't know, to 63 c the maximum a day. Now, compare that with your present Government. I hope the lady is jotting this down. The minimum is 50 c rising by 5c. to 85 c. per working day, which means that per five-day working week the minimum would be R11 to a maximum of R18 per month; and a six-day week R13 to R22 ; and a seven-day week R18 to R25. Now , let us come to her kith and kin - that is, females . Before our taking over they got 17c . to 30c . per day. Today our limit is 35c . to 55c . and for a five - day working week they would get R8 to R14; for a six -day week, R9 to R14.30 ; and for a seven-day week, R10.60 to R15.10 . We also employ juveniles · that is, under 18 years of age , and these get R4.40 to R6.60 for a five-day week; R5.20 to R7.80 for a six-day week; and R7 to R9 for a seven-day week.
MR . B.S. RAJUILI And you think you can entice people to come to the Transkei with those wages ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In addition to that there are these additional allowances or bonuses. For every cycle of three years they
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say people have no money to fence their little plots at home so they would rather go to the tea plantations and work there for R20 a month so that they should return and fence their little gardens. That seems too round about a way of fencing these gardens . I do not think they will ever fence them and, if you took my advice at all , you would work those gardens and there would be no need to go to the tea plantations or the fibre plantations because , after all , a labourer , as you pointed out, lives at home. But just what I could not understand is to say that they pay for buses to go to these plantations and work. I do not think that is true. If it had not been spoken by a lady I would have said it was a lie , but I am afraid I might lose my wife one day and I might approach her for her services, and then she will say: But you called me a liar one day. (Laughter) Now, these people do not need to board buses to go to our plantations. In fact it is for the sake of efficiency and punctuality that we transport them as far as we can along the road , so you can cut out the question of transport. We do provide for housing which we build, but it is more comfortable for them to live in their homes than in huts , and then they can still work their lands properly because I will tell you this , dear lady ..
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are wages determined on the number of labourers or on the output of work? MR. GUZANA: Well you are paid more than you deserve as a Minister if we take you as a yardstick. (Laughter) MR. BUBU : The Government was trying to prove that it was unwise to allow White capital to come into the Transkei because he said they want to mobilize capital in the Transkei . If, therefore , a very large section of the people in the Transkei are being paid so poorly , how will such mobilization of capital in the Transkei be possible?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Will you let the labourers take up shares in your business ? MR. BUBU : In reply to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , I must say that my answer is "yes " , ultimately, because the labourer who is working today is trying to make possible better opportunities for his children in the future. The hon. Minister made mention in the course of his speech of the fact that he has the experience of people seeking work sporadically under the Department of Agriculture . During times of starvation people are prepared to come forth looking for work and they they leave that work afterwards . I want to put it to you, Mr. Chairman, that the reason why the people are not working continuously as labourers cannot be traced to the fact that their needs have been satisfied. The reason is the inadequacy of the wages paid to them. Working conditions are not attractive and whatever is paid to them is not enough to enable them to make ends meet. (Interjections ) Perhaps it is necessary to indicate what aims are envisaged by every man who seeks work. Every man sells his labour so that he may be able to feed his family. Secondly , he must be able to clothe his family. From time to time medical services are necessary and , lastly, every parent wants to give his children a good education so as to be able to improve their lot in the future. In view of what I have said , Mr. Chairman, I think it is not necessary for me to point out to the hon. members of this House that the 35 to 50 cents a day in respect of women and men respectively cannot meet these needs. As far as these wages go a family of five must be fed on 10 cents a day each. It goes without saying that such a thing is an impossibility. Further, when we take into account that these men are sometimes taken ten or twelve miles from their homes, they run short of what food they have taken from their homes with them in order to feed themselves at the places where they are working. They find themselves opening accounts at shops near by their place of work. Before the month end they are taken away from that work point and taken to another one about twelve miles away, and here again they are compelled to open accounts with a nearby shop . By the end of the month most of this R10 paid to them has gone in feeding themselves at the place where they work. (Interjections) They hardly have anything to take home. I am talking from practical experience in this case , Mr. Chairman , and I have known of men who have left these labour camps for good because they find they are getting involved in debt. They realise that what assets they did have before going into this type of work are likely to be attached because of the accounts they are not able to pay. It is for that reason that we feel that the minimum wages should be raised and we regard R20 as the barest minimum that can be paid to them. (Interjections ) It is a pity to realise
THE CHAIRMAN: You must address the member properly, hon. member. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , I have no further intentions , Mr. Chairman. (Laughter) We are building houses for them and they can use them if they like and they can supplement their income , because the labour that we get at these projects is only seasonal , when they are starving. You know, I am sometimes short of six hundred workers at Lambasi because after starvation is over they return to their homes and eat what they have been earning there. I hope the hon. members will teach our people to be steady workers because by so doing they are more efficient and more useful to the Department than ordinary casual labourers , and you must understand that it is a lot of money that we invest in wages which takes four or five years to earn anything for the Department. Thank you , Mr. Chairman, and I will just apologise to the lady for any inconvenience that I have caused her in this House. MR. E. G. SIHELE : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in speaking to this motion I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that when regard is had to the fact that the labourers connected with the roads and the Department of Agriculture constitute the largest section of the labour force in the Transkei, the importance of this motion is immediately realised . The motion seeks to point out that the wages paid to these labourers are very low indeed . It seeks to request the Government to consider the advisability of raising those wages . When we take into account the very large section that these labourers make up in the labour force of the Transkei we then can see that the Government is under- paying a very large section of the community in the Transkei . That position does not augur well for the future economy of the country, particularly in view of the policy of the Government that it is the people in the Transkei who must be given the opportunity of starting economic enterprises in the Transkei. The fact that a very large section of that community is not being paid adequately shows that this aim ofthe Government will never be realised.
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that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is continuously interrupting when we are talking of men connected with these departments . One would expect him to listen carefully and note down what points he regards as important. (Interjections ) What I am saying now is exactly what is happening in connection with the people working on the roads and in the Agriculture Department. Their wages are very low.
that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act , No. 48 of 1963, Inow, in terms of rule 128 of the Rules of Procedure , convey to the Assembly the message that the hon. the Minister of Finance , having been informed of the subject matter of the bill , recommends it for the consideration of the Assembly in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act. I move that the Bill be read a first time.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In spite of the comparison I gave you?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to.
MR. BUBU: The comparison does not improve things . Does the hon. the Minister of Agriculture think that because he is getting R350 a month • •
The Bill was read a first time . THE CHAIRMAN: What day for the second reading ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am getting R350 , plus another
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The 6th June , Mr. Chairman , or so soon thereafter.
MR. BUBU : That's right - plus , plus , plus . Does that improve anyone else's position because you are getting so much ? ( Interjections ) We are trying to get the Government to consider the advisability of raising these low wages . We have not come here to study statistics which are given to us to justify a wrong that is being perpetrated on the people .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I do not know how often the Opposition has to request hon. Ministers to give us an opportunity to look at the bills . THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is only the second reading .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Are you going to tax the people?
MR . GUZANA : The Bill has certain principles which must be studied and I think runs to well over 130 clauses , if I see the size of the Bill as indicative of its length. Now, it has taken the hon. Minister almost a year to have this prepared and within 24 hours he hopes that the Opposition will have grasped all the principles involved herein. We welcome the compliment to the Opposition that is is a very intelligent one, but we would like to use that efficiency by having time to bring our minds to bear upon the Bill. I hope the hon. Minister will bear this in mind.
MR. BUBU: I do not think it is necessary for me to speak at length because this motion is self-evident. R10 a month cannot feed a family or obtain medical services for a family. It cannot clothe a family and it cannot pay even for very low requirements in respect of the education of children. That should be very clear to the Government. It is a pity that they always show a predisposition to refuse everything that comes from the Opposition. ( Interjections ) I am looking at the hon. the Minister of Education because he is one of the more senior members of the Cabinet and one would expect a more balanced reaction from him .
INCREASE IN WAGES : ROADS DEPARTMENT AND FORESTRY LABOURERS The debate was resumed .
The debate was adjourned . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in spite of the fact that I was not present during the whole period of the discussion on this motion , I am compelled , as Minister of Finance , to reply. The motion as it stands reveals a certain amount of irresponsibility on the part of the mover , and those who support her. It is natural for members of Parliament to champion increases in wages and salaries ofthe employees in any Government , but in doing so members of Parliament in particular are required to show a certain amount of sense and responsibility. We are accustomed to read in the newpapers about trade unions fixing a minimum wage for their members and when they are led by irresponsible politicians who are on the Leftist side they fix a ridiculous wage minimum . Surely the Opposition is not going to give the impression to this House and to the country as a whole that they are now forming a trade union in the Transkei , led by senseless , unreasonable and iresponsible leaders ? Here is a motion before the House where the hon. member for Emboland , a lady, fixes a minimum wage of R20 for all labourers in the Transkei , without taking into consideration the revenue of the country. Now, she has been in this House for four years and has been able to study the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the Transkei . Now, the first thing that she should have brought forward in her speech was to tell the House where
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday , 5th June , 1967 . MONDAY, 5TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of Friday, 2nd June , were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have a short announcement to make , that the hon. member for Maluti , Chief Magadla , is convalescing in hospital and is reported to be improving in his condition. We hope he will be able to join us before we rise . ROAD TRAFFIC BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the licensing and control of vehicles in the Transkei and the regulation and control of road traffic and to provide for matters incidental thereto . In view of the fact
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money spent should not exceed one -third of the total revenue which has got to be expended in the services of the country and that is the principle which the Treasury bears in mind when it has got to deal with the salaries and wages of its employees. Now, in October , 1964 , the general salary increases were as follows for prescribed and non-prescribed officers of the Transkei Government Service : There was an additional expenditure of R124,250 per annum, making an increase of approximately 10 per cent in the basic salary of the employee.
the money to be expended on this ridiculous proposed wage increase is to come from, but she has failed dismally to do so and, like a baby she is, has only . . . (Interjections) MR. GUZANA : Don't speak like a schoolboy. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why I speak like that is because they should not make these unnecessary interjections. I am coming to that, my friend. Now, she merely puts down a minimum wage and is not sensible enough to tell the Government where the money must come from. On one occasion during my absence I was made to understand that I was attacked by the hon. chief from Western Pondoland , Chief Nyangilizwe Ndamase , for increasing the salaries of paramount chiefs . Had he known how that came about he should not have spoken so wildly. I respect him and I would not like to attack him . I regret that he does not respect me , but I want to tell him that the reason why the salaries of paramount chiefs were increased was because of the inevitable increase in the salaries of the Ministers as a result of the increase in salaries of the field staff in the Bantu Education Department in Pretoria . The Transkei Government was compelled to increase in the same month the salaries ofthe field staff in the Education Department in the Transkei , and the top notch of a circuit inspector was above the salary which is paid to a Cabinet Minister, and it was even above the salary which is being scheduled for the payment of a secretary of a Department. Now , in any Government you will never find the salaries of the Ministers being less than the salaries of the officials .
MR. GUZANA : Of that , how much went to the wages of labourers by way of increment? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am coming to that. Now, an increase of R21,800 was effected with regard to the Transkei Police . That was additional expenditure . On the 1st September , 1964 , the increase affecting labourers brought about an additional expenditure of R350,000 per annum , an average of 20 per cent in commencing salaries. Now, on the 1st January, 1965 , the increase of allowances of headmen and those chiefs who are not members of the Legislative Assembly was as follows :- The headmen's scales were increased from the old scale of R64, rising to R112 per annum , to a new scale of R120 per annum rising to R216 per annum , and also an additional bonus of 25 per cent increase was made . Now with regard to the chiefs , those chiefs who are not members of the Legislative Assembly were given R400 per annum. In April , 1966 , there was also an increase in the retiring benefits given to chiefs and headmen. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Is this a policy statement?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Was it because Pretoria had increased the salaries ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am trying to show you. Now in 1967 ... (Interjections ) I have not given you the amount at the retiring age of chiefs and headmen but I think I gave it in my statement in 1966, but it is far more than the retiring allowance which was usually given to chiefs and headmen before . For instance , when a chief retires he gets .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , and as a result the increases in the salaries of the Cabinet Ministers were inevitable . It was not because we wanted to pay ourselves large sums of money , as you impute on that side of the House . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. RAJUILI : At what age do they retire ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : And because the salaries of the Cabinet Ministers were to be increased it became imperative that the salaries of the members of the Legislative Assembly should be increased. That is why we gave you R200 per annum more than you were getting.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : When they like. He gets half the stipend he was receiving when he retires. Now, in April, 1967 , general increases in salaries of prescribed and non-prescribed officers of the Transkei Government Service and of members of the Transkei Police resulted in an additional expenditure of R243,000 per annum and an increase in the salaries of the Ministers , paramount chiefs , members of the Legislative Assembly, Public Service Commissioners resulted in the additional expenditure of R30,000 per annum . A general increase in the salaries of the teaching staff resulted in the additional expenditure of R630,000 . I am repeating figures which were given to this House during my second reading speeches during all these years since 1964. Now, has the hon. member from Emboland calculated the figure which the R20 per month will give should this House agree to her laughable and ridiculous proposition?
MR . GUZANA : That is chicken feed. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am trying to show you that we do not do these things because we are selfish . The salaries of paramount chiefs in terms of the Constitution have got to be on the same scale as the salary of the Chief Minister, and because the salaries of Ministers were increased, automatically the salary of the Chief Minister had to be increased . I just wanted to explain that to my hon. friend from Nyanda region, Chief Tutor, who said that I wanted to have a big belly when I go on pension . Now I will challenge the hon. members to give me the money to pay to the labourers , and I propose that we reduce all the salaries , from those of the Chief Minister down , in order to find the money to pay the wages and also reduce the salaries of the hon. members of this House . If you propose such a thing you must bring a motion. It is no good just saying it is all right. In any country in the world , not only the Transkei , it is a principle of all governments that the
OP POSITION MEMBER : R2 million. THE CHIEF MINISTER: If it is R2 million, where are we going to get the money from ? MR. RAJUILI : You keep asking that · THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , I am speaking 316.
they will come to the Government, and not to .. you ....
like a reasonable Minister of Finance . MR. RAJUILI : you how to get it.
• .and we have been showing P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Hear , hear.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , and before you raise additional money you have got to tax the people. That is what is happening in all countries. Before there is an increase there must be an additional taxation of all people .
.because they THE CHIEF MINISTER : • • know that the moment they put their case before you they will be prejudicing it, because you have stepped into the shoes of the people who would cause trouble in this country if you came into power , and as a result there would be chaos and all departments would have no money to carry out their services . Any reasonable Government has got to see to the services ofthe country as a whole. Any reasonable Government has got to see to the services of the ordinary taxpayer. Look at these members from Dalindyebo region who come here year by year and say they represent the people , and the moment they get here they fight against the flow of money into Dalindyebo region for the services of the people.
MR. LUWACA : Take it from the Ministers' salaries . THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Ministers are people who work very hard because they think for you. MR . GUZANA : I can see that, because they are getting rounder and rounder by the year. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They use their heads day and night and they also think for the hon. member from Ngqeleni . Now, suppose you come into power if that would ever happen at all, as it never will - are you going to deceive the people and tell them you will pay them R20 per month? Where will you get the money from ? Because , being a revolutionary Government as you are at present , you will not even get the subsidy which you get from the Republic of South Africa. The Republic of South Africa can never finance a revolutionary Government ( Interjections ) so the only amount you will spend for the services of this country .
MR . RAJUILI: What are we actually discussing ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They oppose the rehabilitation measures which would bring about an increase in the earning capacity of the ordinary man. ( Interjections) Take the agricultural position in Dalindyebo region. What is going on there ? Go right round the whole country, but the moment you cross the Bashee River you find that in Gcaleka region and in Fingoland the people have improved methods of agriculture , because they have responsible leaders . (Interjections)
MR. RAJUILI : Come to the wages .
MR. T.H. BUBU: Then they must increase it for you if you are not a revolutionary Government.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , that is why we are getting increases year after year. We know it is the duty of any Government to see to the living wages of its employees , and that is why we raised the wages of our labourers in 1965. It is because we are conscious of our responsibilities . MR . GUZANA: You said you made these increases in 1964 , didn't you?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : From September , 1964 , yes . That was the 1964/1965 financial year . We were conscious of our responsibilities to our people . We took cognizance of the fact that we cannot tax them but as a sober and diplomatic Government we were able to find money somehow. But if you were to come into power you could not even have the money to pay for the teachers in the Department of Education alone , but you try by all means to mislead the country and pretend that if you were in power you would be in a position to pay wages which are almost equivalent to teachers ' salaries a few years ago. Yes, a few years ago lady teachers were paid R20 a month. You are trying by all means to attract the voters to your side in 1968 , which you will not get. MR.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am telling you, hon. member for Maluti , that it is the general principle of any Government that the money that has got to be paid for wages should not exceed one -third of the total revenue which has got to be expended for any financial year. I am trying to show you that two - thirds of the revenue has got to be expended in the interests of the common man. MR. GUZANA : Right, will you give us these figures ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You want to squander the money so that no services will be rendered to the taxpayer. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : It has already been whispered in my ear that you are complaining and you want a rise in your salaries . Why should your salaries be raised ? What services have you rendered ? These are the people who serve the people the chiefs. ( Laughter) Here are the members of the Government side who go to the people and render service to them . Every day you come to this House and you champion the cause of the Whites . Do you want a rise in your salaries for that ? ( Interjections )
RAJUILI: They are on our side now.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Thay is why you are so insulting in your language when you deal with particularly with the Chief the Ministers Minister. Some of you have been briefed by the most clever men on your side to insult me . We know that is your "bunga" in your caucus - that when you get into this House you must insult the Chief Minister. Now, we want to tell you that we have the pulse of the wishes of the people in the country. We know how they feel and when the labourers want an increase in their wages
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, we as a Government are reasonable and as soon as we get enough money we shall consider the wages of our labourers. MR. RAJUILI : You pay the chiefs for voting. That is the only duty they do. 317.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not fools , however, and I have never yet heard any member in any parliament rising to fix a minimum wage for its labourers . (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Iknow all that. Where are you going to get the money? MR . GUZANA : You asked how we get to the figure and I am telling you.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : In terms of revenue and expenditure .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What I have heard, however, from reasonable Opposition members is a request for a general rise in wages . That is a reasonable request .
MR. GUZANA: In effect it means that a family of five people live on R1 a day , which must give each one of them three meals , must provide for medical expenses , must provide for clothing, must provide for their education and also for their recreation - out of R1 per day, and that is what the Opposition is suggesting at the present moment.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members • ... THE CHAIRMAN: You have spoken on this motion already , hon. member.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Suggest ways and means of getting the money .
MR. GUZANA : No , Mr. Chairman. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : He has .
MR. GUZANA : Now, the Government seems to be crying aloud over the source of income. Even without suggesting any new sources of revenue I am going to deal with the old sources which are available to this Government. Regularly, Sir , from year to year this Government has boasted a surplus. They have argued that they have been very responsible .
THE CHAIRMAN : I think you have. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, this matter is quite easy . We can check with the stenographer . THE CHAIRMAN : And if we discover that you did speak ? MR. GUZANA : Then I allow you to take away my allowance for today, and if you discover that I did not speak I shall be pleased to take over your allowance for today. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is for certain contingencies . The Government must have a surplus . MR. GUZANA : . . .and they have failed to use up money set aside for certain defined services . In the financial year ending 1965 they had a surplus ; in the financial year ending 31st March, 1966, they had a surplus ; and I can bet my whole pittance which I get from this Government that at the end of the financial year 1966/1967 there will be a surplus shown, so that this Government pretends to tie up moneys in certain schemes and never effects those schemes . In other words , it suggests that something is going to be done and turns round to the labourers and says they have no money because whatever they have is going to be used for particular services . Then the following year they come and boast a surplus in this House. I refer to the Report of the Controller and Auditor -General for the financial year 1965/1966 , and I find that the accumulated surplus as at the 31st March, 1966, was R5,574,357.02 .
THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on, hon. member. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, after a great deal of struggle ( I suppose as the labourer struggles with the hammer and the pick- axe on the road) I have been allowed to speak , and it is the sweat and effort and the dedication of these men who work on the roads and who do the menial tasks that are our concern this morning - those who work in the forests to fell timber , those who dig on the roads to pave our way , those who work in Lambasi to make experiments successful those are the people who are supplying the stuff of life on which we live . What would it help to own a limousine and not have the road along which to drive it? What would it help me to buy myself silver cutlery if I did not have the potato before me to eat ? Indeed , these people who are our subject this morning are the people on whom rests the foundations of any developing nation and we seek to show to them that they are not forgotten, even when we come to this House . How irresponsible it is to suggest that a motion dealing with the wages of the labourers is an irresponsible one ! (Interjections ) If the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni wants to know where the money will come from I think if he would give up his salary for a year it would assist the position tremendously. (Laughter) I am not interested in the coin you show me because it is in your pocket. I would have liked you to pass it on to the labourer. It is our duty to look into the wages of the labourers in this House and if the Government fails to look into these wages it is the Opposition that must prod them along to a realisation of the fact that there should be a minimum of at least R20 a month paid to them.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That money has got to be expended on the services of the people. MR. GUZANA : And so the Government has been carrying a surplus from year to year and if we divide up this surplus amongst the different departments this is what we get : In the Department of the Chief Minister , R142,601 ; the Department of Justice , R33,803 ; the Department of Education , R319,060 ; the Department of the Interior , R471,104 ; the Department of Roads and Works , R1,385,274; and those are the surpluses shown as at the 31st March , 1966 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Those surpluses are for use in the following financial year. MR . GUZANA : If the hon. the Chief Minister suggests that the services not rendered one year are rendered the following year, why have a surplus? If the work had to be done in the financial year 1964 , why is there a surplus in 1965 ? If the service had to be done in 1965 , why is there a surplus at the end of 1965 and at the end of 1966 ? That is the reason why we charge this
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How can you arrive at that if you are a responsible Opposition ? MR. GUZANA: A responsible Opposition takes it that each labourer works five days in a week and concedes that a man working as a labourer has a wife and three children.
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Government with pretending to tie up money in services which are never rendered , and then they come and say they have got no money.
MR. GUZANA : You pay the taxes , I pay the taxes , and everybody pays the taxes , direct and indirect, and you therefore cannot ask who is paying the taxes , because you and I are paying taxes . My submission is , therefore , that the money is there but the Government does not want to pay the labourers just out of spite and nothing else . ( Interjections) We have noticed this meanness which is characteristic of this Government towards its people.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not irresponsible. We are a responsible Government. We don't want to tax the people. MR. GUZANA : The hon. the Minister of Agriculture said these increases would involve about R2 million . Now since you are carrying a surplus of R5 million- odd , this would mean 40 percent of this surplus each time .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You can bluff the people as if you can do something. What can you do?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want to spend all the money? A responsible Government must have a surplus .
MR . GUZANA: This Government is more concerned with their stomachs than with the stomachs of the labourers.
MR. GUZANA : A responsible Government must have a surplus , but if it is really responsible it will not allow the labourers to work on empty stomachs .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Are you prepared to tax the people more ? MR. GUZANA: Why should I when the money is there ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What did they get before this Government came into power? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where is it? This money is for the services of the country. MR. GUZANA: If the Republican Government is insolvent, should the labourers work on insolvent stomachs ? I charge this Government that it has the money but it is deliberately refusing to pay the labourers this increased wage. They refuse to do so because they could not worry about what happens to the labourers .
MR. GUZANA : It is no use talking about the services of the country , because these services are never rendered. Why is there a surplus if the services are rendered , or is the Government admitting that it is always over-estimating because it does not know what rands and cents mean? (Interjections ) They estimate they will have a bridge built for R200,000 when it will cost only R50,000 , and because they do not know what they are doing or how to handle money and what are the principles to be involved in making estimates , they tie up the money and they come back to this House with brazen faces and tell us they have a surplus . Let me tell you that every time you tell us you have a surplus on your estimates you are admitting that you do not know what you are doing with your estimates.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is an irresponsible remark from a Leader of the Opposition. MR. GUZANA: And to say that the Opposition is irresponsible in asking for an increase inthe labourers ' wages betrays an irresponsibility on the part of the Government towards its own employees. (Interjections ) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You have an eye to 1968.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have a sound Treasury .
MR. GUZANA : I am very serious and I have my back to the gallery. haven't an eye to the gallery as you have . The argument that there is not sufficient money to raise these wages is fallacious because the money is there.
MR . GUZANA : You have a sound Treasury , yes , because whenever I hit it with a hammer it makes a loud noise because it is empty. (Laughter) The hon. the Chief Minister has suggested we would never get a subsidy if this side were the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have had to pay you, that is why we have none .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You would never get
MR. GUZANA : I have already said that when we receive the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General for 1966/1967 there will be a huge surplus again.
it. MR. GUZANA : I would ask you not to insult the Republican Government. Don't think that the Republican Government is as irresponsible as you are .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And you want to squander it all. MR. GUZANA: We are not going to squander it. We ask that it be paid to the labourers who are going to use the money in the Transkei and let it circulate . ( Interjections) Whilst this Government sits on this money to warm it the people are starving.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Where would you get the money?
MR. GUZANA: They have more sense in one man than in all of you put together, and they would never hesitate to pour money into the Transkei. Indeed , I am wondering if the subsidy would not be doubled as soon as we get rid of this irresponsible Government . (Laughter) Probably we would be able to give a higher allowance to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture so that he should entertain himself at the bottle store. ( Laughter ) I ask this Government to be responsible and to pay the people a good minimum wage .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about those people who are not employed? MR. GUZANA : You go to the Republic and there they are well paid .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And who pays the taxes ?
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GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Under what Constitution?
bring to this House. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
MR. GUZANA: It has been suggested that if the labourers bring their complaints to the Opposition then their case will be prejudiced. In other words , the hon. the Chief Minister is telling us that he would not look at the complaints objectively but would look at them as having been brought to his notice by the Opposition and therefore he would be prejudiced.
MISS TWETWA: He spoke completely outside the motion and compared himself with Samson. I wonder what made him Samsonize himself, (Laughter) because he doesn't even compare with him as far as the end of his nose ? The Bible tells us that Samson shook the walls and shook the pillars of the house , and down they fell on the nation and the nation perished. I wonder who is going to perish now? ( Laughter) The hon. member has made great fun on the supposition that I will not be re-elected . What does that matter? What matters is that I need a platform now, and I must use that opportunity now. No doubt his seat will not be retained either. He made fun of a responsibility that is in his hands . He makes fun of the fact that I go about selling vegetables . What is wrong with that?Why make fun of the things that are the responsibility of your Department ? The hon. Minister forgets that most of the members of the Assembly in Cape Town are from the farming community. What is wrong with that? In his address he now and again referred to the motion and he asked how I arrived at the estimate of R20 per month. I noted it particularly because these people are not educated people , such as those I have referred to, and I would like him to tell me whom the R20 ought to be paid to what type of labourer ? He also asked whether we want the people to be taxed further . I do not want to rob Peter to pay Paul. We have made it quite clear where the money should come from - from the same source as your stipend and my stipend comes from . Much has been said about allowing White capital into the Transkei with the purpose of trying to increase the money for the Transkei revenue . Those suggestions were made in order to allow us to find money to pay the poorer section of the community. As a result of his inability to reply to this motion, the hon. Minister talked about people working over weekends and on holidays a thing he knows is impracticable . To conclude , Mr. Chairman, may I give them this sum so that they may work it out at home : Samson earns R350 a month and Jim merely earns in the neighbourhood of R120 a year . I ask you how many years Jim would have to work in order to earn as much as the R350 a month which is your salary.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Because it is an irresponsible Opposition. MR . GUZANA : I think this is the most telling statement about a Government of any area . •
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , we are telling you because of the nature of the Opposition. The Opposition should be reasonable. MR. GUZANA : It reveals the attitude of mind which refuses to see facts , but sentimentalizes round them in order to avoid its responsibility. What matters it whether X tells you the truth or Y tells you the truth? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You never tell us the truth, but only a lot of lies. MR. GUZANA: If it is the truth you should listen, but this Government will not listen to the truth because it comes from the Opposition. One last word about these salaries about which the hon. the Chief Minister is boasting. He asked here what Parliament ever discusses the fixing of a minimum wage for labourers . I want to ask him another question : What members of Parliament receive less than 40 per cent of what is paid to members of the Cabinet? (Interjections ) Therefore let us concede that queer and strange things do happen with this Government. Not only is the proportion of salaries ofmembers a strange and unfair percentage , but we notice that this Government bluntly refuses to raise the wages of labourers , though it has the money and knows it is sitting on the money. I shall call on you , Mr. Chairman, for my allowance at the end of the day. ( Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call on the hon. mover of the motion to reply. MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to reply to the motion , and I shall start with the hon. the Chief Minister's remarks for I have noted that he took the trouble to prepare himself to reply to this motion. On that account I will thank him, although he has shown political inclinations in his reply. I do not know whether he showed two or more political inclinations in his reply. To be brief, I will repeat what I have already said , that I wish him to consider the advisability of raising the wages of the labourers in the Department of Roads and the Department of Forestry. I will now refer to a rather strange address made by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , when he spoke altogether outside the purpose of the motion and said things which I could not follow. In his opening remarks he looked down upon the idea and said he could not understand how this motion was
MR. GUZANA: It will take him three years to earn your one month's salary. MISS TWETWA: I therefore ask you to support this motion. THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Miss L. Twetwa, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I shall put the question that the words which stand to be deleted stand part of the motion. The words were deleted by 32 votes to 55. The words proposed to be substituted were agreed to by 55 votes to 32. The motion as amended " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government be complimented on its positive approach to wage and salary structures within the Government Service " was carried by 55 votes to 32. AFTERNOON SESSION
given to a member of such low status . He praised himself and forgot the advice given to this House , that we are all on a par in this Assembly. He wants to know who recommended that I should put forward this motion . I will inform him that it was the electorate which brought me here , and I will not ask him which motions I should
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. 320 .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am this afternoon the Minister of Finance . ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I do not rise to give a countermotion to the motion before this House , but merely wish to enlighten certain members of the House on this matter. I think we are all agreed that the hon. member for Emboland , the mover ofthis motion, does not in any way suggest doing away with taxation as a whole , but that the motion seeks to exempt those people who pay income tax from paying additional general tax. At this very juncture I wish to point out to the hon. member and the members of this House that it is incorrect to say " Pay as you earn" tax.
EXEMPTION FROM PAYMENT OF ADDITIONAL GENERAL TAX MISS L. TWETWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of exonerating all those who pay ' As you earn Tax' from paying ' Additional General Tax ' . " Mr. Chairman, the aim of this motion is to try to exonerate a person who pays general tax from paying " as you earn" tax, or vice versa. This tax is paid by people whose income is over R360 per annum and such individual has to pay R2 , and for each additional R120 per annum he pays R2 extra. If it is over by only R10 he is still expected to pay that extra amount . People are sent special additional tax forms to fill in and the person will go tothe office and pay the money stipulated . ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. Minister , are you moving an amendment or are you just explaining ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am opposing the motion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: How are we going to pay the labourers if you reduce the taxes ?
THE CHAIRMAN: Why not move an amendment? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is not necessary when you oppose it.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MISS TWETWA: During the interim, as you earn you salary a deduction is made according to the " as you earn " tax and that means that two types of taxes are collected from the same person, and as you pay the PAYE tax one is under the impression that the additional tax is no longer payable , and while you are waiting you suddenly receive a summons . This necessitates people travelling backwards and forwards tothe revenue office . Some of these taxpayers are told they can reclaim their money at the East London office , but all the time no interest is paid on the tax which they have been made to pay. As regards the teachers , when the summons has been served on them they are prosecuted and are found guilty. To make things more difficult the transport costs they have to pay backwards and forwards increase the burden on them, and in addition there are other taxes . Whilst I do not mean that the people must not pay taxes , I wish to point out that they pay very many taxes . They pay local taxes , hospital tax, and there are many indirect taxes . What I would like to make clear is that a person pays two different taxes , and I would like the House to make it clear which of these taxes ought to be paid by the taxpayers .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The "Pay as you earn" system is merely a convenient method of collecting the income tax in small amounts , perhaps , to the advantage of the taxpayer, rather than collecting it at the end of the year in a lump sum. To come back to the motion, there is already an existing provision that provides for what the motion seeks . Section 2 , sub- section ( 1) of Act No. 41 of 1925 , as substituted by section 1 of Act No. 38 of 1958 , provides that the amount of the additional general tax assessed to be paid by a taxpayer is reduced by the amount of income tax assessed to be paid by such taxpayer in any one year. To give an illustration , Mr. Chairman, I will say for instance a taxpayer is assessed to pay R5 additional general tax and then he is assessed to pay R5 income tax. It means to say that the R5 additional general tax will be reduced by the R5 income tax, meaning to say that that particular taxpayer will only pay R5 additional tax. A taxpayer does not pay both the additional general tax and the income tax. Say, on the other hand , a taxpayer is assessed to pay R5 additional general tax and then is assessed to pay R20 income tax. Such taxpayer will only be liable to pay R20 income tax and not the additional general tax of R5. This , Mr. Chairman, is as the position stands according to this section that I have just quoted . If there should be someone who has to pay both these amounts it is for that particular person to claim his money. That being the case , Mr. Chairman, I submit that there is no necessity for a new legislation in this connection because what the motion seeks is already provided for in the section I have mentioned . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : With all these men, why didn't you get one of them to move this motion? MISS TWETWA: I thought I had made that clear to you, and I am surprised that you go on repeating it. In this House all of us are hon. members , and I am not a child. I would like you to remember that and to address me as "hon. member" all the time . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Or as "Mrs. Suzman" . (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN : I wonder if the mover of the motion intends continuing with the motion in view of the explanation given by the hon. Minister?
MISS TWETWA: On that account, Mr. Chairman, I would like you to make it clear which of these two taxes they should pay. I know what I am talking about because I myself am liable to pay these two taxes , so why should I ask anybody to move this for me ? I pay these taxes myself. I therefore appeal to the House to have one of these two taxes withdrawn.
MISS TWETWA: I thank the hon. the Minister of the Interior for the explanation he has made , Mr. Chairman, but I want to state that these things happen to us and we would like to have them brought here and made clear so that everyone will know about them . I thank the Minister.
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second.
THE CHAIRMAN: My question was whether 321 .
it difficult because the income-earning person has his family which depends on him. I would like to know what it is in the age of the individual which qualifies such an individual for the pension. How many years must the applicant be to entitle him to be included in this scheme.
the hon. member is prepared to withdraw or not. MISS TWETWA : I withdraw, Mr. Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN: Does the seconder agree? MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , as far as the explanation of the hon. Minister goes •
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : 65 years . MISS TWETWA : Putting aside the question of white hair, this is a very difficult matter, because even if the applicant has a couple of sheep the wool from those sheep is not enough to provide them with a sufficient income . Even if he has a couple of head of cattle , they do not bring in enough milk for the individual to sell to be able to increase the family income . Possession of a plot of land does not improve matters , because the produce from that plot is not enough to sell to enable the family to increase their income . Further, Mr. Chairman , the people who have been entitled to this scheme are very often deprived of it. They are not even given notice of this . It is just withdrawn when the people may be expecting to meet certain commitments. This is very painful because before a person is included in this scheme his economic status is looked into and he is found to be a suitable applicant. For reasons that are not made clear to him , the money is withdrawn even though he may be in certain financial difficulties already. It is for that reason we would like this Assembly to make it very clear how the people qualify for the old age pension scheme. Some people are by nature ugly looking, while others are beautiful , and the most beautiful looking people appear
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you withdrawing or not ? Answer the question first. MR. LUWACA : I would request him to send a circular to the magistrate because we are paying this money . THE CHAIRMAN: I want to know whether you are agreable to withdrawing or not.
MR. LUWACA : I have got to say something about it. ( Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . The hon. member is advised to see the Minister of the Interior in his office if he still wants further information on this matter. MR. LUWACA : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree ? Agreed to . The motion was withdrawn. MOTION No. 25
younger than they really are , although they may be of the same age as an ugly individual . We would like to know whether the question of a person's beauty and facial appearance is also a qualification for being included or excluded from the scheme . Some people like to put on decent clothes and they keep themselves clean , while others are more careless . If one keeps oneself clean and tidy one is regarded as being young. This compels the applicants for this pension to dress themselves shabbily because they know that if they dress themselves neatly they will be disqualified . We would like it to be explained , too , that if the child of the family earns an income , must he bear the burden of his parents ? Such a man might have his own family and has to pay for the education , clothing and maintenance of his children. Must he be made to bear the further burden of his parents ? I do not wish to be very lengthy because I think this motion is self-explanatory. I therefore move as stated .
MR. Z. CHEMANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , seeing that provision has been made in the Bill that has been tabled before the House I wish to withdraw this motion. The motion was withdrawn. OLD AGE PENSIONS MISS L. TWETWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:(a) determining the old age pensions applicable to Transkei citizens on the old age basis and not on the means test; (b) re- instating pensions to those recipients from whom such benefits have been withdrawn. " This motion refers to matters which are rather troublesome , Mr. Chairman , for you get two people of the same age who are not treated in the same manner in regard to the old age pension. One receives a pension and the other does not. When the two people make applications for old age pensions they are asked to bare their heads and the one who has white hair will get the pension, and the other , who may not have white hair, does not get it. Although the two applicants may be of the same age the one who has black hair is disgusted at not being included in the list of old age pensioners . This compels us to ask how old must a person be before he is eligible for the old age pension . One applicant may have a couple of head of cattle or sheep which helps to provide subsistence , and because he has not a full span of oxen he joins up with his neighbour in order to be able to plough his land . If other applicants have a plot of land , however , that is enough to deny them the old age pension. Other old people may have one or two incomeearning members in the family and they are therefore denied the old age pension. This makes
MR . H.H. ZIBI : I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to move an amendment that all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and be substituted by the following : "(a) the means test should continue to be applied when the applications for old age pension are considered ; and (b) cancelled grants cannot be reinstated unless the recipient qualifies in all respects for a pension or a grant. " Mr. Chairman , I shall commence with paragraph (a) of the motion which says that old age pensions should be determined on the old age basis and not on the means test. At the outset I wish to explain that these social benefits are really intended to assist the poor. The people who qualify for these pensions are the poor people. It would indeed be strange if Mr. Khotso , for instance , on reaching a certain age should be 322.
granted a pension. (Interjections) According to the motion he would be entitled to it, and Mr. Khotso is a millionaire . Should he be granted a pension? That is why I say these pensions are really intended for the poor people . We cannot just spend money lavishly because the fund from which these pensions are derived is small. There is a certain prescribed age at which a person qualifies for this pension. The male applicant on reaching the age of 65 years qualifies for this pension and a female applicant at the age of 63 years . There is also a means . test. Even though I have already explained these prescribed ages it does not necessarily mean that because he has reached this age he will get a pension automatically. We first go into the applicant's circumstances to see whether or not he is wealthy what he is worth in livestock or what he gets from his plot. If an applicant has reached the prescribed age , if he earns less than R48 a year then he qualifies for a pension. You will perhaps want to know how we arrive at the figure of R48. Let us take the case of an applicant who has stock. We take it that if an applicant has a cow he should be able to get R2.50 per annum from the cow; and from the wool of one sheep the applicant should be able to get 30 cents per annum . We do not consider oxen, but we take it that he gets 20 cents per annum from the hair of a goat. It is quite a complicated affair, this means test business . We take it that an applicant gets 10 cents per annum from eggs per fowl, and fromthe produce of his mealie land he gets 40 cents per annum ; 50 cents per annum for a bag of kaffir- corn; beans , R1 per annum ; potatoes , 50 cents per bag per annum ; rye , 50 cents per bag per annum ; oats , 50 cents per bag per annum ; sweet potatoes , 35 cents per annum ; lucern, 20 cents ; peanuts , R1 per annum ; pumpkins , 21/2 cents each per annum. Now, if an applicant gets only 20 cents from the hair of one goat , how many goats must he possess to have R48 per annum ? I concede that some of the magistrates in some of the districts disqualify applicants merely because they happen to possess one or two head of cattle and a land. Because of this practice, in 1965 I sent a circular to all magistrates , under cover of which I gave them this list for the means test. I cannot know that there are some magistrates who do not follow this test unless I am told by you. Another thing, if tribal authorities take an applicant before a magistrate and he is refused , those tribal authorities must inform me. How can I go about trying to find out who has been refused a pension if I am not told about it? As I say, this means test must be continued . As I have already pointed out , it does not mean that because an applicant has reached a certain age that he must qualify for the pension, especially if he is as rich as Khotso. To come to paragraph (b) , which refers to people who were already in receipt of these benefits but subsequently had them withdrawn , the motion seeks that these people should be given this pension again. The greatest danger amongst our people is lying. When a person appears before the chief or headman and he is asked about his livestock, he gives the lowest number he can; and if livestock is seen at his kraal he says that it belongs to his son who is away, or to his daughter who has got married . Because of this practice of lying he succeeds in getting the pension. Well , there is a yearly review of these pensions to look into the circumstances of each recipient and when, during this review, an applicant is questioned he forgets what he said last time and he admits that all the livestock at his kraal belongs to him. (Laughter) He is under the impression that as he told lies when 323.
he first applied he will go on receiving the pension , and when he is asked to whom the cattle belong he is afraid that they will be confiscated and so he comes out with the truth that they are his . When the pension is withdrawn because he has over R48 a year he starts complaining that the cattle are not his . (Interjections) However, even in a case where such pension has been withdrawn the person is not debarred from reapplying for a pension and if it becomes evident that the pension was wrongly withdrawn he is placed once more on the list of pensioners. Other applicants just dropthe matter because they knew they only got the pension through telling lies. We cannot just collect all these people from whom the pension was withdrawn and give it back to them , even when we know they have been telling lies. I think I have replied to both sections of the motion , Mr. Chairman. In paragraph (a) the means test must continue in order to determine the circumstances of each applicant; and the reply to paragraph (b) is that eventhough the pension has been withdrawn , if the applicant can produce evidence that he is eligible for a pension it will be given back to him. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment. MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , seeing that this motion affects the whole Transkei I would like to speak to it. The House will remember that in 1964 we were all agreed that the old age pension should be raised. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And it was raised. MR. ZIBI : We accordingly reported to the people and the people found that the old age pension was , in truth, increased slightly. While they were still jubilant about it the heavy stone fell on them , to the effect that some of them were deprived of this pension . Let us remember that some of these recipients were given the pension by the Republican Government before the advent of the Transkeian Government, and that means therefore that we maintain that the Republican Government did not know what they were doing. As we are trying to do for our people what the European people are doing for their people, I would like to point out that the Europeans receive the old age pension without this qualifying means test which is applied to our people. As representative of the electorate we move from one area to another and we have discovered that this complaint is a general one throughout the Transkei and that people who were receiving the pension are now disqualified from receiving it. The people say that they were gathered at some central place - perhaps a local shop - and they were asked questions in connection with the property they owned, how many head of sheep and cattle they had , etc. , without realising that this was in connection with the means test. (Interjections ) The painful thing is that after an applicant has been in receipt of this assistance for two or three years , he is now deprived of it. Does it mean that the older he gets the less qualified he is for the old age pension ? (Interjections) In regard to the statement made by the hon. Minister, that false statements are made by the applicants , I would reply that the applicant starts with the headman at home and places his application before him. The local headman takes him to the tribal authority and the tribal authority satisfied itself as to the income of the applicant. The head of the tribal authority is usually the chief, and unless the hon. Minister is implying that the chiefs are themselves liars (Interjec-
be interested to hear what he has to say.
tions) it is the chief who helps the applicant put his case before the magistrate . The applicant goes through the headman and through the tribal authority and lastly to the magistrate , and if it is reported afterwards that the statement he made is false it means that these three have made false statements. If the magistrate turns down the application of an applicant who really qualifies for the pension , the magistrate makes a statement to the effect that he has a son who can work for him, and very often it is found that the son referred to has a wife and family who depend on his income for livelihood . Although the widowed mother may have a couple of head of cattle, say, by Native custom they do not belong to her but to the son. How can it be said, therefore , that they belong to her ? Further , an unreasonable thing is often said to applicants . A widow who is well over 50 years of age is often advised to re-marry. (Laughter) You who maintain that your Government bases itself on the traditions of the people should know that a woman who has been married into a certain clan or family will be regarded as belonging for life to that family or clan and she cannot re-marry into another. This leaves us in a quandary as to whether we are going to the West orthe East. It is well known that the chiefs themselves have said to the people and to the Ministers : Do help us because we and the magistrates do not come to agreement as far as some of the applicants are concerned. (Interjections ) This is quite easy and the money paid to these pensioners is very small. There is an old saying of the White people : Divide and rule - and this is being carried out most efficiently here , and the people see it. Pay the Ministers well and then they will silence the people . As proof of what I am saying, the increment paid to the Ministers this year is equal to the actual full stipend of all the members of this House . ( Interjections )
MR . J.M. SINEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to ask the hon. members of the Opposition not to discuss this motion because it is similar to those which have been moved before and have been withdrawn. There is not one of us here who is not being molested by the people on this question and I would like this matter to be considered honestly and in its proper form. The law lays down that a female applicant for the old age pension must be 63 years old and a male applicant must be 65. These people are taken to the proper quarters to submit their applications and to be questioned as to their circumstances . They are registered and they wait for the day when they will receive the money , and they never receive it. They wait for an indefinite period and eventually they are advised to re-apply. (Interjections ) I am trying to help you. The people catch hold of our coats because after submitting applications no money is received . The reason why I am suggesting that there should be no debate about this matter is because we should just plead with the Government to put this right, because I am quite certain the Government is not aware that this is the practice outside . We are at a loss to know what to say to people whose applications are submitted and who do qualify for these pensions , but who do not get the money. (Interjections ) I suggest that we should have no discussion on the matter but should approach the Government and ask them to see to it.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : This is an approach. MR. SINEKE : The people in the district are molesting us because they do not get their pensions and they do not know why. THE CHAIRMAN: I think, hon. members , the hon. the Minister of the Interior has given quite a satisfactory explanation in connection with this matter . As a matter of fact , I did not expect him to submit an amendment but I think the motion should just be withdrawn and the matter left in his hands . I do not wish to stand in the way of anybody and if the mover is not prepared to withdraw then I shall put the motion and I shall not allow any more discussion.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Keep to the motion. MR. ZIBI: The purpose of this increment is so that the Ministers can go out and talk to the people and make them satisfied with what they have, and so that they can live on promises. I am referring to the chiefs and am leaving the Ministers alone , because they earn good stipends. One year we asked that your stipends be increased , and you voted against that motion moved by the hon. Mr. Mazwi. Today we are speaking for the people and asking for an increment in their pensions and also that those whose pensions have been withdrawn should be reinstated. I will also say that the hon. Ministers do not talk to the people in the manner in which they are talking now. This motion states clearly the cry of the people throughout the whole Transkei , and it is you - the Ministers - who ought to put this matter right. We will be compelled to report to the electorate that we put the motion to the House and explained the needs but the chiefs opposed it. I would like to appeal to the chiefs to feel for their people in this matter. This money will not be paid by you but by the Government. It will not cause the Ministers any inconvenience because they will not have to find the money. The Government will find the money. I think the motion is self-explanatory . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : And the counter-motion is self-explanatory . MR. ZIBI : It is not necessary to belabour it any further. The die is cast and the onus is on the chiefs . I am happy to see the next speaker is an elected representative of the people and I will
MR.
C.S.
MDA :
Mr.
Chairman •
THE CHAIRMAN: No, I will not allow any more debate .
MR. MDA: I wish to have something explained , Mr. Chairman. I am not going to debate . I would like the hon. Minister to give us an undertaking on the facts I wish to place before the House . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Now you are debating. MR. MDA: With regard to the applications , I am quite certain that the applicant is not asked how many cows he possesses. He is asked how many head of cattle he has , not how many cows he possesses . With regard to the sheep, the applicant is not asked whether the type of sheep he has is wool - bearing. He is asked how many plots of land he ploughs , but is not asked how many bags he harvests per annum. All these questions are not asked according to the purpose of the means test. We are appealing therefore to the hon. the Minister of the Interior to put it to the Bantu Affairs Commissioners to ask and investigate according to the manner he has described here . I am quite certain that if the applicants were questioned on these lines , as the 324 .
the policy?
hon. Minister has stated , then nobody would be disqualified from receiving this pension.
MR . RAZIYA: In some areas , however, this brings in a difficulty, for ifthere is no provision for land available to people to put up homes as they wish to, according to the plan approved by the municipal council , it enables those who have money enough to put up decent homes for themselves. In the zoned areas some of the properties that are for sale are already dilapidated or perhaps they are too expensive and they are not according to the taste of the buyer. Our youth in the Transkei like decent houses and they want to build decent homes , rather than inhabit these old houses which may not be to their liking. According to this , anybody who wishes to buy is compelled to buy one of these old houses instead of building a new house for himself. If the Government approves of this motion it is possible that the erven marked out may perhaps cost R100 . I move accordingly, because I do not think anybody will oppose this . The situation appertaining here in Norwood makes it difficult for us because we are compelled to buy a big homestead even if we don't want such a big one. Further, the reason why I move this is because the Bantu people do not have as much money as one would think. It happened in the location here that the people asked that they should be given these plots . (Interjections ) I mean the people who have businesses and shops , not just residences. In some towns , even the Europeans have what is termed a location or housing scheme set aside according to the means of those people who have not much money. If that is done in this location a great deal of harm will have been done to the people. (Interjections) I don't think anybody will oppose this motion and therefore I will stop.
THE CHAIRMAN : Do I understand you to say that you fall in with the suggestion of the hon. Mr. Sineke that this motion be withdrawn and that it be left in the hands of the Minister? I am referring to the mover of the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, before you ask that I would like you to give the hon. Minister a chance to explain the questions asked by the hon. member for Qaukeni. They are very important, and then the mover can be given a chance to reply. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have already explained that as early as 1965 a circular letter was sent to all the magistrates in the Transkei with regard to this matter and this list was enclosed in that circular letter. It may perhaps be that it is through ignorance that the tribal authorities are not aware of this circular. I have now given you people an explanation and it is for you to go to your various magistrates . I cannot go to the various tribal authorities and say they must go according to this list. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : However, I promise to re- issue that circular letter now to include the remarks made by the hon. member. Now withdraw. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, are you prepared to withdraw? Otherwise I must put this to the vote. Just a minute , please. I am waiting for a reply from the mover. I will not allow any member to debate on this any more.
MR . G.G. KUTU : I second the motion , Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am standing up to advise the hon. member to withdraw this motion because it is ultra vires the powers of the Transkei Government. In elucidating this matter I want to show the hon. member that the Proclamation merely declared that certain properties would remain for occupation by the White people after declaring the whole of the municipal area Black. In other words , the Proclamation did not go further than that. The municipal areas remain the properties of the provincial councils and therefore under the immediate control of White municipalities . Now the motion seeks to call upon the Government to consider the advisability of making small land plots available for sale to Bantu buyers in municipal commonages zoned for occupation for the Bantu. It does not say that we should request the provincial councils who own the municipalities , and that is why I say the motion is completely beyond the powers of the Transkei Government . I wish to refer the hon. members across the floor to section 60 of the Transkei Constitution Act. Sub- section (3) ofthat section reads as follows : "Any such proclamation may also provide that any such area or portion of an area which has been reserved for occupa-
MISS TWETWA: Mr. Chairman, I beg to withdraw the motion. THE CHAIRMAN: And the seconder? MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, Iwill only withdraw if the means test is withdrawn too. THE CHAIRMAN : I think you are out of order. The Minister has explained everything and he says he is going to consider this matter. MR. K.M.N. GUZANA: May I just assist you in one little matter ? THE CHAIRMAN: No, I will not allow you. Does the seconder agree to withdraw?
MR. ZIBI : I agree , Mr. Chairman. The motion was withdrawn. SALE OF LAND ON MUNICIPAL COMMONAGES TO AFRICANS
MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making small land plots available for sale to Bantu buyers in all municipal commonages zoned for occupation by the Bantu. " I know that at the time when areas were zoned there were already properties owned by the Bantu people so that some of these towns were declared entirely Black.
tion or ownership by Bantu persons shall cease to form part of the area under the jurisdiction of the municipality, village management board or local board concerned. " Sub- section (3 ) (b) reads as follows : "That any such area or portion of an area which has been so reserved for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons shall, under such circumstances as may be specified in the proclamation or with effect from a date to be determined in the proclamation, become a released area or a scheduled Native area or a Bantu area
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you supporting
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for the purposes of any law relating to released areas scheduled Native areas or Bantu areas. "1 Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are quite aware that many African people would like to come and settle and have freehold properties in the municipal areas of the Transkei , and as a responsible Government we feel that we as a Government first of all will have to move the Republican Government, as we did when we got the towns to be zoned , to comply with that subsection of section 60 , because we are quite aware that the Reserves are overcrowded and many people would like to come and reside in the towns . At the same time, as a responsible Government we feel that the first thing we must do in order to attract the farmers to come into the towns is to put up factories in order to have an incentive to the landless man to come and settle and work in the towns. We also feel that the African people should be interested more and more in business , in order that they should come and take over the existing shops which are being run by White entrepreneurs. That is why the Bantu Investment Corporation has accorded an opportunity to all the traders of the Transkei - in fact, even in the Ciskei - to go and train at a trading station outside Umtata called Selborne . But , as I say, this motion is beyond the powers of the Transkei Government. This Government does not control the municipal areas of the Transkei and the best that we could do and, after hearing your remarks , the best that the Government can do , is to correspond with the Republican Government that the provisions of sub- section (3) should be complied with. In other words , a separate proclamation should be issued providing for these exigencies which you find here . It is inevitable that the commonages have to be cut up for occupation by the African people as the population of the town expands . Another thing is · it must be clear that these municipal areas are going to be the property of the Transkei people. You are going to own these municipal areas and we would appreciate that a Black municipality should plan its own town in consultation with the experts that are available. (Interjections) Now it pleases me this afternoon to know that the Opposition has accepted the policy of separate development ... •
removal of any existing restrictions - any existing restrictions on the acquisition , ownership or occupation of any land within any such area or portion of such area or the imposition of any other restrictions on the acquisition , ownership or occupation of any such land . THE CHAIRMAN: Before we carry on with this motion, I would like the Leader ofthe Opposition to say something, if he wishes. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The mover wanted to say something. THE CHAIRMAN: Yes , but the Leader of the Opposition wanted to speak, but it is already a quarter to five. MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , will you give me the opportunity to look into this matter so that I may say something tomorrow?
THE CHAIRMAN : Very well . The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 6th June , 1967. TUESDAY , 6TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret to inform this House that the hon. Chief Xakatile Mlindazwe of Qaukeni region has not been able to attend this session owing to illness . We hope , however, that the Almighty God will spare him so that he is able to join us next session . QUESTIONS
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : No , it has not accepted it.
QUESTION NO. 73. Mr. G. Dana asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) ( i) Whether the Transkei Government has approached the Republican Government with a view to having wages of Black miners increased in recognition of the contribution they have made to the economy of South Africa; (b) (ii) if not, why not? (iii) Whether social pensioners are treated free of charge by District Surgeons ?"
THE CHIEF MINISTER: ...because this very motion is an acceptance of our contention that the Transkei has got to be exploited by the Bantu for the Bantu. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: It is not an acceptance. THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is no multiracialism in this motion - nothing at all. It does not refer to Europeans at all. The motion says that the Government should consider the advisability of making land plots available for sale to Bantu buyers . It does not say to . . . . ( Interjections) Just a minute - it does not say to those people who want to buy. And then it goes further and says in all municipal commonages zoned for occupation by the Bantu. Now, the hon. members must be honest.
REPLY : (a) (i) No. (ii) The question of wages for mine labourers embraces not only workers from the Transkei but from the whole of the Republic and even from beyond its borders . The price of gold as well as many other factors have a bearing on this question which is constantly receiving careful attention on a global basis at very high level . (iii) The medical treatment of social pensioners falls under the Department of Health. From the information available , it would however , appear that such pensioners are entitled to free medical treatment.
MR. RAJUILI : Why should you tie up this part that you feel is ultra vires , with the factories that you know you will not have until after the fourth generation? Can't this go on without factories ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, sub- section 60 (3) further provides in (c) of that sub- section that any such proclamation may also provide for the 326.
QUESTION NO. 80. Chief S.M. Lebenya asked the Chief Minister :"(a) (i) Is it true that the Department of Health is withdrawing its financial assistance to clinics in the Transkei and disbanding the staff employed there ? (ii) If so ; what is the reason for this action? (iii) How many clinics are affected? (b) (i ) Is it true that applications of student nurses are discriminated against at Sir Henry Elliot Hospital by reason of the fact that they are next of kin or are close relatives of members of Parliament on Government benches ? (ii) and that ; Nurses from the Transvaal , Western Province , Natal and Orange Free State are preferred to applicants who are Transkeian citizens and relatives and supporters of Government supporters ?" REPLY: (a) Although Health matters do not as yet fall under the jurisdiction of this Government and the relevant information is not available enquiries in this connection are, however , being made. (b) With reference to paragraph (b) of the question the members ' attention is drawn to rule 86 ( III) of the Rules of Procedure as contained in Proclamation No. 308 of 1963.
QUESTION NO. 81 . Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Education:"Arising from the reply of the Minister of Roads and Works to question No. 44 : Whether the Minister of Education could give reasons why he has not approached the Department of Roads and Works for the construction of Mnikwa school (Mount Ayliff) which was destroyed by fire some time ago?" REPLY : In September, 1964, a fire partially destroyed some of the Mnikwa school buildings . At the time , the school was still a community school under the Mount Ayliff school board and school buildings were erected by the communities for which purpose they could obtain a R-for - R subsidy. The community decided to replace the buildings but did not apply for a subsidy. This fact was also reported by the Circuit Inspector. In June 1966 , the principal reported that out of 5 classrooms under erection three were nearly completed. Neither the school committee nor the Tribal Authority availed themselves of the opportunity to apply for assistance under the R1,350 per classroom scheme approved last year. From these facts the Department naturally concluded that the community concerned is quite satisfied .
QUESTION NO. 82. Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Education :"(a) How many students at Jojo Secondary School have been detained as a result of a disturbance there. (b) What are the causes of the disturbance ? (c) Whether your Department will make an inquiry and make a report to this House at this session of the Transkei Legislative Assembly?" REPLY : (a) 36 boy students were detained . (b) On Saturday, 13th May, a group of boys and
girls were taken for sports matches to Mnceba Secondary School . On the way, the canopy of the open lorry broke and slightly injured some of the pupils who therefore refused to board the lorry for the return trip. Unfortunately, the teachers who accompanied the students then left them behind without making provision for their safety with the Mnceba authorities. The pupils were collected by the Principal on Sunday, 14th May. This whole affair seems to have caused resentment in the minds of the boys who on the night of Monday, 15th May, slaughtered a sheep and a fowl belonging to the warden who was absent and they then broke into the pantry and stole food supplies. On the 16th May, the Warden returned home and reported to the police who arrested 36 boys. These all pleaded guilty to the charge , 23 were let out on bail to their parents , the others being detained as their parents were not easily available but the latter were kept separate from the ordinary prisoners . The case came up for trial yesterday and the students were severely reprimanded and given two or three cuts each. (c) The Department has already instituted an inquiry and in view of the above no further statement is considered necessary but the Department will investigate the conditions in the hostel concerned and the action of the teachers in leaving the students uncared for .
MR. B. S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply it would appear that the investigation is in connection with the teachers who left the students behind . What is the position with the boarding-master or warden, because he has been away for quite a number of days ? Is he included in the inquiry? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have already told you about your scanty understanding of English. The Department will investigate the conditions in the hostel concerned and the action of the teachers in leaving the students uncared for .
QUESTION NO. 83. Mr. Z. Chemane asked the Minister of the Interior :"Whether it is the intention on the part of the B.I.C. to purchase for resale to a Bantuthe Ibisi European-owned trading station which is situated in the Ibisi township Umzimkulu in view of the fact that it creates unequal competition with the existing Bantu trading stations in this township ?" REPLY : As pointed out in my reply to question No. 75, the Bantu Investment Corporation does NOT purchase Trading stations . They are purchased by the South African Bantu Trust and handed to the Xhosa Development Corporation for management until such time as a suitable Bantu buyer can be found. This procedure will also apply to the Ibisi trading station if and when it is purchased by the South African Bantu Trust. MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to give this House an idea whether, in his opinion, it would be a reason sufficiently valid for either the BIC or the Trust to buy a trading station merely for unequal competition that it offers African trading
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establishments in the area. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I have no comment on the question. MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, what does he mean by saying it is not the BIC but the Trust ? He told us the other day that the shareholder in the BIC is the trust , and now he says that the trading station is not bought by the BIC but by the Trust. Please clear up the mystery. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The hon. member has been away for two solid weeks , if I am not mistaken. To give him a bit of homework, let him table his question. TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC ACT : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, before moving the second reading of the Road Traffic Bill I wish to apologize to the House on account of the unavailability of the Xhosa version of the Bill. We have had considerable difficulties in translation but we have every hope that they will be distributed before the committee stage. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Will you ask for leave from this . House to continue with the Bill without the Xhosa version, because the three versions should be before this House? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That is why I am apologizing . MR. GUZANA: You are merely apologizing you are not asking for leave to continue. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman, I therefore ask for leave to proceed with the Bill . MR. GUZANA : What are the grounds for asking leave to continue ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Because of the difficulty in translating into Xhosa.
The House agreed . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman, honourable paramount chiefs , honourable members of the Assembly , In introducing the second reading of the Road Traffic Bill I wish to draw attention to the reasons motivating and necessitating the introduction of such a Bill . The control of road traffic in the four provinces of the Republic is a function of the Provincial Administrations and in South West Africa of the South West Africa Administration. In the Transkei, and in terms of section 12 ofthe First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act, Act No. 48 of 1963 , the function of regulating and controlling road traffic devolves on the Transkei Government. In the 1950's it was realised by all Provincial Administrations that traffic legislation needed revision and that uniformity of legislation should be aimed at. The Cape Provincial administration introduced its Traffic Ordinance in 1955 (Ordinance No. 19 of 1955) and the other provinces , using this as a model , introduced corresponding legislation in subsequent years . In the past and up
to the present the Cape Traffic Ordinance applied in the Transkei . Whilst the Cape Ordinance was used as a model by the other Provincial Administrators it was almost unavoidable that certain local factors 1 and parochial preferences should operate in the compilation of the different ordinances with the result that the aim of uniformity was largely defeated . By way of illustration of some of the differences I should like to quote the following few examples : Different procedures are used in the different provinces in the registration and licensing of vehicles , the issuing of drivers' licences and the examination of vehicles for roadworthiness; in some localities municipalities are the licensing authority whereas in others the receivers of revenue or the magistrates perform this function; in the Cape Province the Administrator appoints persons for testing drivers, in the Transvaal it is again the municipalities who appoint these examiners whilst elsewhere still different methods are employed. In respect of the equipment side of vehicles it is found that certain traffic indicators permissible in one province are rejected in another; certain safety devices on trailers and trailed equipment generally, compulsory in one province are not so in another ; certain abnormal loads admitted on the roads of one province would be denied passage on another, and so on.
These differences in the ordinances led to considerable confusion , discontent and even hardship in latter years when there was an increase in movement of persons on transfer from one province to another , when interprovincial traffic not only ofthe normal travelling public but more especially of cartage and transportation contractors assumed considerable proportions , and where these people sometimes found themselves faced with prosecution under some technical point in the ordinance of a particular province .
In order to rationalise the position the Minister of Transport in 1964 agreed with all the Administrators to appoint a Committee to investigate the principle of uniform road traffic legislation. This Committee, under the Chairmanship of the Administrator ofthe Orange Free State , comprised 5 members of the different Executive Committees and the Secretary for Transport. The findings of the Committee were that strict uniformity in the content and form of traffic legislation in the whole of the Republic was essential in so far as this concerned the regulation of traffic on roads , road signs , the construction and equipment of vehicles and the issuing of drivers ' licences . In order to achieve co-ordination of effort the Committee recommended that an Interprovincial Advisory Board be established under the chairmanship of one of the Administrators , and consisting of five members of the respective Executive Committees and the Secretary of Transport, the Committee to be assisted by a Technical Committee consisting of five administrative officers of senior grade , a representative of the Road Safety Board , one law adviser , a civil , a traffic , and a mechanical engineer and a chief traffic officer. The Committee also recommended that the Transvaal Traffic Ordinance (No. 18 of 1957 ) be taken as the model ordinance . The Ordinance was duly drafted , revised , amended and approved by the Technical Com-
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last mentioned sectionin the Bill correspond again with sections 181 and 182 of the Ordinance. Hence whilst bound to the principle of uniformity in respect of the fixed sections a measure of elasticity is permissible to cater for local requirements .
mittee and the Advisory Board and was finally passed in the 1966 sessions of the Provincial Councils without amendment. It became Ordinance No. 21 of 1966 throughout the Republic and came into force on 1st January, 1967. Thus , it already operates in all urban areas in the Transkei .
In view of the 5 points of motivation enumerated above this Government has no hesitation in presenting this Bill before the Legislative Assembly with a view to its adoption.
Mr. Chairman , Honourable Members , the Bill now before you is in essence as well as in detail the same as the Uniform Traffic Ordinance now in operation in the Republic, but adjusted to suit the requirements of the Transkei .
Mr. Chairman, honourable members , I now wish to draw attention to the principal departures from the previous legislation.
In moving its adoption I am guided by the following considerations :
(a) Previously motor licences had to be renewed by 9th February. Taxpayers no doubt welcome the extention of the period of grace and the postment of the evil moment to the 7th March as provided for in the Bill.
(a) Since it was found by a Committee specially appointed at Ministerial level that uniform road traffic legislation was essential for the whole of the Republic there can be no doubt that this Government should also subscribe to this principle. It would be a retrograde step and lead to confusion and hardship among the people of the Transkei to do otherwise .
(b) Clearance certificates cannot be issued in respect of a second hand vehicle unless a roadworthy certificate is first produced. This means that without a roadworthy/clearance certificate no newly purchased second hand vehicle may be used on the road. In future it is a matter between buyer and seller as to who procures the roadworthy certificate .
(b) Since the Advisory Board and its Technical Committee were constituted of people representing all Provinces and were clearly all well versed in all matters relating to road traffic legislation, there can be no hesitation in acknowledging their authority on the one hand or their competence on the other to draw up a uniform road traffic law acceptable to all .
(c) Another new provision is that the driving of extra heavy vehicles of a tare weight of 30,000 lbs . and over calls for a special driver's licence because exceptional driving ability is required in the handling of these vehicles .
(c) Since their deliberations were done in consultation with and with the co - operation of all the Provincial Administrations this Legislative Assembly can hardly have any quarrel with the contents of the Bill before it.
A number of new provisions which are most welcome concern themselves mainly with road safety, principal among which are the following: (a) The first disqualifies persons from holding a motor driver's licence if they suffer from or are liable to the following diseases or disabilities : (i) Angina Pectoris , a heart condition. (ii) Coronary thrombosis (or heart attack) , or if there is evidence of an abnormality in the functioning of the heart as shown by an electrocardiogram . (iii) Any condition causing muscular incoordination . (iv) Uncontrolled diabetes .
(d) Generally speaking the Bill contains essentially the same provisions as does the existing legislation (that is the Cape Provincial Ordinance No. 19 of 1955) . The chapters have , however , been divided differently , there has been a rearrangement of the provisions in different sections , the language used is more in line with present day usage and some of the former provisions will be dealt with by regulation. Such of the differences as do exist and which are significant will be discussed later. (e) It will be recalled that the Committee appointed to investigate the principle of uniform road traffic legislation confined its recommendations on uniformity to matters relating to the regulation of traffic on roads , road signs , the construction and equipment of vehicles and the issuing of drivers licences . There need not, in fact, there often cannot, be uniformity in regard to fiscal matters . Each road traffic authority will want to look after its own purse in its own particular way , and each is at liberty to do so. The Road Traffic Ordinance consists of 182 sections . Sections 181 and 182 deal with the repeal of ordinances and the short title respectively. The first 180 sections may be regarded as the "fixed" sections embodying the principle of uniformity. This has been strictly followed in the Road Traffic Bill as well . A road traffic authority may find it expedient to introduce additional sections due to local conditions and these may be added after the fixed sections. This has been done in the case of the Road Traffic Bill where section 181 of the Bill deals with delegation of powers and section 182 provides for the assignment of duties to various Ministers . Section 183 deals with the repeal of ordinances and section 184 gives the short title . These two
(b) Under the 1966 Ordinance people suffering from epilepsy were regarded as disqualified . Now, with the advances made by medical science epilepsy can be controlled with suitable treatment. The provision in the Bill refers to debarment from driving in cases of uncontrolled epilepsy only. The earlier " liability to sudden attacks of disabling giddiness and fainting" is amplified in the Bill by the additional phrase "due to hypertension or any other cause" . (c) The necessity to erect speed limit signs of 35 miles per hour at the entry into an urban area falls away under the Bill, it being considered obvious from the fact that concentrations of buildings are there that an urban area is being entered where a 35 miles per hour speed limit obtains in any case , even if no signs are displayed. Where not obvious that an urban area is being entered speed limit signs should still be erected . (d) The Bill provides for the general speed limit of 70 miles per hour unless an appropriate sign is displayed . In view of the heavy criticism which has been levelled in the press and else329.
where at this provision in the Ordinances I must dwell on a few aspects connected with this speed and high travelling speeds in general .. When travelling at 70 miles per hour the distance covered in one second is 103 feet. At this rate a city block in Umtata , let us say along the side of the Legislative Assembly building in Victoria street is traversed from corner to corner in just over three seconds . It takes just that time to shout, " Look out, you're going too fast!" If that motorist, shaken by the warning were to brake suddenly, it would take him one second to apply brakes in which time he has covered 103 feet and it would take his car a further 287 feet in which to slither to a standstill , a total distance of 390 feet - which brings him nearly to the end of the next block. Similarly , a motorist travelling at 70 miles per hour and wishing to overtake another travelling at 60 miles per hour requires 500 feet in which to complete the manoeuvre in safety. This is rather longer than one of our city blocks . The impatient driver wanting merely to get ahead of the motorist in front of him who is travelling at 70 miles per hour has to overtake at a speed of 80 miles per hour in order to clear him in 500 feet, or at nearly 90 miles per hour to clear him in 350 feet. If in addition he does this in the face of an oncoming vehicle travelling at 70 miles per hour he must have a clear space of at least 660 feet to do this in safety. Very few drivers can say quite honestly that they can judge the speed of an oncoming car or the distance between them to such a nicety. For every second that passes thinking about whether or not to overtake under' the conditions described the gap between the two cars narrows by 234 feet. If he spotted the oncoming car 1,000 feet away and hesitates with his overtaking for 2 seconds he has left it too late and a collision must ensue if the oncoming car does not slow down. A factor sometimes overlooked in connection with head on collisions is that at the moment of impact the vehicles meet at their combined speeds . Hence , two cars colliding at the respective speeds of 30 miles per hour and 40 miles per hour suffer the same impact as either car would have suffered had it collided with a stationary object at 70 miles per hour. This is the equivalent of dropping the vehicles and their occupants from the top of a 17 storey building. We are all agreed that 30 and 40 miles per hour are very moderate speeds . We would almost take a chance on having a collision at these speeds . After all , we're not travelling fast. We would , however , think twice before taking a chance on driving off the top of a 17 storey building. Were our reckless 90 mile per hour overtaker of the previous example in fact to collide with the oncoming car , they would meet at 160 miles per hour . They could as well have driven their cars over a precipice 850 feet high. This is some hundreds of feet higher than the so called Execution Rock on the way to Port St. Johns . A clear case of overtaker - undertaker, for there will be no survivors . Statistics taken over some years and collating the world's accidents have brought to light the following interesting facts in connection withthe effect on human life at different collision speeds .
may well involve a 50% chance of being killed. This speed must , therefore , be regarded as being within the outer limits of safety. Those who are upset at this speed restriction should pause to think of their chances of survival when involved in a collision at the higher speeds they seem to fancy. Would these same people rather play Russian roulette ? Of course not. That is a stupid suicidal game. But actually it gives them a much better chance of survival than does a collision at between 70 and 80 miles per hour. In the last critical moments before an accident at these speeds the gambler at the wheel has as little control over the situation as has the Russian roulette player after he has pulled the trigger of his revolver. But to continue with the other provisions of the Bill. Chapters VI to X deal with the rules of the road, accident procedures , infringements , the powers of the courts , fines etc. A new provision is introduced whereby the restriction on the parking of a vehicle on the shoulders of a road is lifted to the extent that parking is permitted beyond 3 feet of the roadway .
In future the Minister has powers of controlling trading on public roads . The operative word is "controlling" . This does not mean prohibition. The provisions against driving under the influence of liquor have been tightened up . It is an offence for a person to be found behind the steering wheel of a vehicle , the engine of which is running, should that person be found to have not less than.15 per cent alcohol in his blood stream . This has been assessed as 4 tots of spirits in an adult person of normal build.
Passing another vehicle on the left in a rural area is completely prohibited even if use could be made of the shoulders of the road or of the road reserve . Up to the present the mere possession of a vehicle mounted on wheels compelled the owner to register and license it. In the case , for example , of vehicles of abnormal weight or dimensions which would never be allowed on a public road, the owner was made to license it as though it were permitted on a public road. The Bill approaches the matter differently. It is not the possession of such a vehicle but its use which determines the issue of whether it has to be registered and licensed or not. Part I of Schedule I lays down that such machinery although mounted on wheels but which never operates on a public road is exempt from registration and licensing . Another change in approach is the registration and licensing of farm tractors and trailers . In future these appliances , if used by bona fide farmers solely for farming purposes and not on a public road for purposes of transportation , will be exempt from registration and licensing. Another new principle is separation of registration and licensing fees . Formerly these were combined.
At under 40 m.p.h. : 1 fatality in 97 , or 1%; between 40 and 50 m.p.h. : 1 fatality in 67 , or 11/2%; between 50 and 60 m.p.h. : 1 fatality in 37, or 21 /2% and now the figures climb at an alraming rate : between 60 and 70 m.p.h. : 1 fatality in 7 , or 14% between 70 and 80 m.p.h. : 1 fatality in 2, or 50% above 80 m.p.h. : No survivors.
With these remarks , Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I have sketched the main background to the origin of this Bill and have also given a survey of its main differences in relation to the existing legislation. I would ask you to bear in mind that its counterpart already operates in the rest of the Republic and in the urban areas of the Transkei and that for simplicity of administration it is essential that uni-
An accident occurring at 70 miles per hour
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no obligation at all. There is a sort of situation that may arise when one enters an urban area and an over-enthusiastic traffic officer sticks into the culvert and watches out for cars coming in, and snaps you up by saying you have been travelling at more than 35 m.p.h. in an urban area. The driver argues that he had not yet entered the urban area and the traffic officer says he is in an urban area. Now, to put the matter beyond doubt, why is it not made obligatory on local authorities to set up speed limit signs of 35 m.p.h. irrespective of whether the urban area is built up or not built up ? On page 15 and onwards for some pages , you draw us a very frightening prospect of travelling at high speed.
formity be observed and maintained. I therefore move , Mr. Chairman and honourable members , that the Transkei Road Traffic Bill be read a second time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , one feels one has to agree that the Legislative Assembly has had to bring this Bill before this House in order to maintain uniformity with the Cape Province , but whilst we seek that uniformity I think it must be conceded that there may be certain provisions in that uniform legislation about which we may feel we have to comment adversely. I shall mention some of these factors during the course of my reply to the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works , and in order to facilitate matters I shall follow his
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member , I think we should adjourn for lunch now and you may continue afterwards.
The debate was adjourned .
speech as given to us in the written papers before us. When we look at page 12 we find that in future it is a matter between the buyer and the seller as to who procures the roadworthy certificate . Now, Sir, you are aware that there are unscrupulous sellers. Some of them are legalized because they have licences to deal inthe motor trade and you must remember that the buyer is always a gullible person. The seller has the professional knowledge and technical knowledge behind him; the buyer has no knowledge whatsoever which will come to his assistance in determining whether or not a car is worth while buying. You have seen this , Sir , in the number of wrecks which lie alongside the Transkei roads , or abandoned cars with new registration letters on them , bought by the gullible public from people who ought to know what type of car to sell to the public. Therefore , to provide for a determination between the buyer and the seller of who should provide the roadworthy certificate is not to protect the buyer at all. In our view the man who offers the goods for sale must obtain the roadworthy certificate. They usually give warranties mixed up with sales talk and get some old scrap of a car offloaded on to the public. I would like the hon. Minister to look into that matter and make it the legal duty of the seller to obtain a roadworthy certificate . Now, on page 13 you enumerate some of the added disqualifications where a person either holds a driver's licence or seeks to obtain a driver's licence. I am concerned particularly with (a) (ii) where the functioning of the heart is determined by an electrocardiogram . My own view is that an electrocardiogram indicates how the heart beats physically, and how the muscle of the heart is contracting and expanding, but the action of the heart is really a response to stimuli given to it by an external situation. Thus you may find a person who is allergic , or does not want to visit a doctor , by nature reacting and having an electrocardiogram which indicates an agitated heart. He has the experience which one sometimes has when one goes to the dentist, the fear of the dentist's chair. My concern is over the fact that an electrocardiogram, whilst it may reveal an agitated heart or a heart functioning abnormally, yet under normal circumstances when this person is not faced with such a test his heart beats normally. One would like that disqualification to be applied with a great deal of reserve, alternatively that several tests in most congenial circumstances should be taken before a person is disqualified . On page 14 you refer to the speed limit signs of 35 m.p.h. into an urban area. I do not know why legislation should seek to be woolly over this provision. There is either an obligation to put up the speed limit sign, or
AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the Road Traffic Bill was resumed. MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I hope my mind is still where it belongs after my very good lunch. I had just indicated that the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works had depicted for us a very macabre and frightening picture of what the consequences of high speed are. I asked him if he had conducted any experiments and whether he was speaking from personal experience when he said this , but I think I should withdraw that question because I could never expect him, of all people, to face such a hazard. (Laughter) What strikes me as most peculiar is the fact that we should seek to limit the speed of cars on national and other roads when the mechanic and designer is making more and more powerful cars and selling them to the public. These latest models in cars cruise at speeds of 70 m.p.h. and more and if one keeps them at a speed lower than that then the performance is not as good as it should be. So in effect the traffic officer declares a war on the inventor and the mechanic , and the law is on the side of the traffic officer. I am very critical of this provision which seeks to limit the speed on country roads to 70 m.p.h. I can imagine one being tied up in a convoy of six, seven or eight cars, keeping at 70 m.p.h. for long distances without being able to pass them and I think the popular conception that the car driver is a road hog is unfounded, because no one seeks to take one's life oneself. No one with a reasonable sense of duty to those he has as passengers in his car will rush into unduly high speed if he is unable to control his vehicle . After all , the law provides very stringent provisions with regard to the issue of drivers' licences and I think the control should be exercised at the testing ground, rather than on the road, so that we get the safe driver on the road without limiting the speed to 70 m.p.h. Can it honestly be said that anybody observes this 70 m.p.h. limit ? I have been ahead of certain XG cars travelling at 70 m.p.h. , and these cars have just swished past me . I believe this should be left to the good sense of the driver to determine what is a safe speed in any given circumstances. I am also convinced that in order to reduce this possibility of accident the white lines that usually divide the road into two lanes should be a double line , leaving two or three feet in between the double lines , so that in the 331 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You know nothing about the Bill.
centre of the road you have a no-traffic lane which is three feet wide running along the road. Then that would mean, of course , that the roads should become wider in order to accommodate traffic adequately. On page 21 , reference is made to drunken drivers. I have always wondered why a person should be regarded as driving a vehicle if he sits behind the steering-wheel of a vehicle whose engine is running and he has an alcohol content in his blood of .15 per cent. I would like to know why that is an offence at all. I think a person standing next to the car with an alcohol content of .15 per cent might well be regarded as driving under the influence , if a person sitting in the car can be so regarded. My view is that a person with an alcohol content who is sitting down is more drowsy and less active than the one who is on his feet and might want to stagger to the car. I welcome the provision to which you refer in paragraph 21 , where vehicles not necessarily on the road are exempt from registration and licensing. Then, Sir, I remember some time this week a motion came before the House dealing with the training of traffic officers , and the hon. member to whose name that motion stood withdrew the motion because he had been assured that provision had been made to meet that eventuality in the Bill now before us. Now, I have looked through the Bill and find no provision relating to the training of traffic officers , as distinct from their appointment. Probably this will be an administrative matter which may be handled by the Minister of Roads , but we would like some assurance on the matter so that people will have the opportunity to be trained as traffic officers . Last but not least, I must mention a provision which seems to grate on my sentimental attachment to the registration number of my car , and I do not know if the hon. Minister deliberately evaded a comment on this matter. Section 42 of the Bill provides , in simple language , that where a car has been registered and carries a registration number, it carries that registration number from owner to owner until the car is scrapped . Now some people develop a sentimental attachment to the registration numbers of their car and we have not
MR . RAJUILI: I think in the Transkei we travel on horseback or on foot. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : You are talking a lot of nonsense . Do you have to carry your car when you come to the Transkei ? MR. RAJUILI: Now comes this thick Bill dealing with the control of traffic and things which you do not know in the Government , and you did say that this amends the Cape Ordinance on traffic regulations . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We are not amending anything. We are making our own law.
MR . RAJUILI : You are making your own law based on the Cape traffic regulations and in trying to do that I see you are just making a uniformication of all the traffic laws in the Republic. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Because even a man who drives a wagon has to observe traffic rules. MR. RAJUILI: When one considers the Government's policy of separate development one is thrown out of gear . One would have expected the tribal authorities to be the traffic officers . (Laughter) We did point out some time back that as development goes on this Government will realise that they cannot separate life in the Republic of South Africa from other parts within the Republic of South Africa . A little while ago when we were on educational matters , matters which we were quite aware that tribal authorities were ignorant about , all education was handed over to tribal authorities . Now when we come to traffic we realise that people who are going to be controlled here are Whites , who own over 90 per cent of the cars and you do a somersault and change over from tribal authorities . The Bill shows that only White people can be appointed to those offices referred to in your speech.
been told what disadvantages flow from the fact that a person can transfer his registration number from one car which he sells to another which he buys , and what are the cogent reasons for this drastic change of procedure . Is it because the ordinance in the other provinces so provides , and if they have done so , what were the reasons for that drastic change ? Are we obliged then to toe the line on this matter if we feel very strongly about it? One would like the hon. Minister to comment on section 42 , but at the present moment I do feel there should be no change in the previous procedure whereby an individual retained his car number. Those are the remarks I wish to make, Mr. Chairman, and thank you very much.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that? MR. RAJUILI: You could never get a better entrenchmentication of Whites over the Africans than is envisaged in this Bill. (Interjections ) THE CHIEF MINISTER : What section of the Bill?
MR. RAJUILI : We might perhaps have been expected to welcome it, but it is not in accordance with our multi-racial policy or outlook. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have no multiracial policy .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I take it that this is the policy speech preceding this Bill.
MR. RAJUILI: In your Bill not one African can be appointed to serve as a traffic officer .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is not a policy speech, it is the second reading speech.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Look at section 3. Read it.
MR. RAJUILI: This second reading speech of the Bill explains the intentions ofthe Bill and the aims and objects pertaining to the Bill , which is policy. (Laughter) Sir , in reading this address , if then it has to be called that, in conjunction with the Bill which it is supposed to explain, we find that (at least those of us who live in the more advanced centres of the country) there is nothing new except that we are scared of some of the things that appear in this Bill .
MR. RAJUILI : Section 3 would have to appoint a person trained in such a manner as an African in this country cannot be trained . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Just read the section.
MR. RAJUILI: A little while ago we pointed out that there is insufficient provision for educa-
332.
ting the Africans and this Government said there was sufficient provision.
an African, since there is no provision even under what is promised as technical education? If that had been done there would have been some possibility of people being appointed under this Bill. Where will you get a Kaffir who holds a diploma that is recognized in motor mechanics ? (Laughter) I think if this Government is not trying to pretend not to see the truth, this Bill shows that you do not have any tribal authorities , tribal this , Bantustan that. It is the same Bill that operates anywhere in the Republic. You should see the mistake that you made in connection with the education of our children because here you could not bring in regulations to control a civilized White person by tribal authorities. (Laughter) Sir, we are looking forward to a few more bills like this one that will prove beyond doubt the fallacy of the policy of separate development.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Perhaps it is because the Xhosa version is missing and you do not understand English.
MR. RAJUILI: The Minister can only appoint a person who holds a diploma in motor mechanics and engineering under the National Industrial Council , which not one African is able to be trained for. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That applies to the minicipal areas which are not under you . MR. RAJUILI : Now if that is supposed to apply to urban areas , what happens outside urban areas ? There is no provision for people to serve outside urban areas . Page 7 of the speech, paragraph 9 , reads : " The Bill now before you is in essence , as well as in detail , the same as the Uniform Traffic Ordinance now in operation in the Republic , but adjusted to suit the requirements of the Transkei . " I am on that. I cannot see where it is adjusted to suit the requirements of the Transkei because there is not anywhere here where , in accordance with the policy of your Government, these regulations are going to be done tribalistically by the Africans as separated from the White man . (Laughter) What we see here is that the whole Bill as it is (and you are quite correct when you say so) is in operation in the Republic of South Africa. There is no provision for it here except that it appears now the municipal or urban areas , or the Whites in the urban areas, are going to be loaned officials to run these regulations for you. ( Laughter) Now, on page 7 it says that since it was found by a committee specially appointed at Ministerial level ... Now it would appear that the policy of this Government is to be that of retrogression
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the question that the Bill be read a second time.
MR. GUZANA : Before we do that, Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. the Minister of Roads would like to comment on the points raised . May I request the Chair to indulge him by extending that privilege to him? THE CHAIRMAN: Can't he do that in the committee stage ?
MR . GUZANA : Well , Sir, if you ask me I will explain humbly that in the committee stage we deal with the Bill clause by clause and during the second reading we deal with the principles. In our reply we have commented on the principles embodied in the Bill and he might want to reply to our criticisms . THE CHAIRMAN : Do you think the Minister is ready with his reply?
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I have never under-estimated a Minister , but if the Chairman is concerned about his ability I will not put him to the test. ( Laughter)
away from the Western advancement of the people of the Republic but in so far as these documents are concerned there is nothing here showing separate development aspects of your policy and Government. You could never have a better demonstration of a multi - racialised administration than to bring a Bill like this in front of us , which is supposed to be carried out by people proficient in its understanding. Our leader asked if we are supposed to be toeing the line. He wanted to know whether we are supposed to be toeing the line in so far as this Bill is concerned . Indeed , I would say so , more so as we are so much part of the Republic of South Africa and cannot in most aspects of life apply a policy of separate development. We just have to toe the line . This reminds me of when the hon. the Chief Minister was trying to apply machinery for the repatriation of Whites from the Transkei and the Secretary for the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance released a statement to the effect that all the Whites in the Transkei are ambassadors . ( Laughter) Now one wonders indeed at this rate as to whether all the Whites are supposed to be loaned persons to help this • Government
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that there are some important points here that will require some consideration, I will ask the House to give me some time to go into them . THE CHAIRMAN : I think the best thing then is to allow the members to get on with the debate on this. MR. GUZANA : Sir , may I request that we adjourn the second reading debate until tomorrow, or a date suitable to the hon. the Minister of Roads ? You will realise that there is really no contention raised in this matter but that we are seeking to consider the whole legislation objectively and we want to give him time to study the points that have been raised . THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree that the matter be postponed ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , Mr. Chairman , we can adjourn the debate on this matter but we will carry on with the other items.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Who said all the Whites ? You are in dreamland.
The debate was adjourned .
.and it would certainly MR . RAJUILI : appear that that is the case , and that being so it has proved beyond doubt, brought to us by this Government through this Bill , that a multiracial outlook and aspect in the life of the people of South Africa is inevitable . When will you get
SALE OF LAND ON MUNICIPAL COMMONAGES TO AFRICANS The debate was resumed. 333.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if I may remind you, Sir, and the hon. members , you asked me yesterday to reply after the hon. the Chief Minister had drawn the attention of the House to certain constitutional provisions in the Transkei Constitution Act, the point particularly raised by him, among others , being that the matter which is the subject of the motion is ultra vires. I have referred this matter to the mover of the motion and he has something to say with regard to that matter. I would not like to usurp his rights as the mover of the motion.
MR . GUZANA: No , you only asked me to comment on the reply of the Chief Minister in relation to the legal matter he raised . THE CHAIRMAN : I think you are out of order. The man in charge is the one who moved the motion. MR. GUZANA : And I am standing now because I have a right to speak to the motion. THE CHAIRMAN : No , I will not allow you. I am going to put the question. Does the House agree?
MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, because I was limited in time I chose to do what I am going to say now, because I want this thing to be carried out . I will try to put in an amendment to this motion now, to the effect that in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should appeal to the Government of the Republic to amend the regulation as it appears on the order paper. I am trying by this to ask the hon. the Chief Minister to allow me not even to say a word further on this matter. I move accordingly : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to make small land plots available for sale to African buyers in municipal commonages zoned for occupation by the Africans . "
Agreed to. The motion as amended was carried unanimously. RAIL LINK BETWEEN UM TATA AND KOKSTAD MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to construct a railway link between Umtata and Kokstad. " Mr. Chairman, I am moving this motion which is quite straightforward and has no sucpicious aspects. The Transkei is separated and cut off from the rest of the country , and it stands alone. This request for a railway line is an old one. Even during World War I this matter was discussed and after the second World War it continued. It is clear that there is a necessity for this rail link. Today people may say that there is a road link between these two places , but the bus services do not satisfy the needs of the people. You will realise that the distance between these two places is quite short, and if a line is built it will make communication much easier between the Cape and Natal and between Durban and East London. The construction of the line between Umtata and Kokstad will make things easier and goods will not be delayed so long between Umtata and Kokstad . At times we do need mealies here in Umtata and it is difficult to get these mealies into the villages , and that will make things much easier. There will be better communications for school children, who will be able to travel by train to get to school . As I have said, there is a bus service between these two points and we appreciate the service given by these buses , but the truth is that the bus cannot cope with the demand . That is the reason why I am clamouring for the connection between these two places. I would like to compare the Johannesburg - Natal system. There is a bus service on that route but there is also a railway line . In most places there is a bus service and a railway line . What I am asking now will directly or indirectly promote business in the Transkei . I have already mentioned that my motion is quite clear and there is no further need for explanation . I will not go into details to show how much it will cost. All I am interested in is to emphasize the necessity for a railway line between the two points mentioned . I wish to ask the House to consider this most sincerely and refer it to the Republican Government to consider it in turn.
MR. G.G. KUTU: I second , Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this side of the House will graciously support the motion of the hon. member as it now stands . ( Laughter) By so doing we shall be showing the vituperous Opposition that we are always reasonable in supporting their reasonable motions. I hope they will stop swearing at us all the time and using abusive language all the time , particularly to the Chief Minister.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , we welcome the attitude of the Government side . (Interjections) I was going to say the hon. the Chief Minister , but I will say the leader of the Governing party. I am disappointed with his reaction. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: In supporting the motion as amended? MR. GUZANA: No, I am disappointed by his subsequent behaviour after sitting down, and not in accepting the motion as amended . We feel on this side of the House that the African is at a financial disadvantage even in the zoned areas , and that if plots are cut up in the commonages zoned for occupation by the Bantu, the wageearner may be able , over a number of years, to put up a house of his own design. THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member , are you still wanting to debate on this motion? MR . GUZANA: The Chief Minister commented on the motion and we are entitled to reply. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : No, I just want to put the question now. That is all .
out
MR. W.Z. LUFEFENI : I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA : I hope I am not being bullied of my right to speak on this motion .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this side of the House supports the motion as it is a reasonable request. It is not necessary to make any comments because
THE CHAIRMAN: No , we have debated a lot on this motion . 334.
this motion is because of the constant trouble between the land holder and the local headman. The headman is given a summons to pass on to the land holder informing him that his plot is forfeit. The land holder is further given a certain time in which to pay for the land, failing which the land is then allocated to someone else . This often leads to a great deal of trouble in that the land holder loses his plot of land . It sometimes happens that the summons is not served on the land holder at all , or it is served late and his land is sold to whoever might have money to buy it. It also happens sometimes that the headman hands the summons to this person and it is lost and quite often the headman keeps the summons back because he wishes the plot to be acquired by another person, especially when the second possible holder has paid a fee to the headman for the plot. This often leads to a quarrel between the headman and the land holder , the headman saying that he has served the summons on the man and the man denying that he was served with the summons . I am thinking of a poor person who has no money to pay to the headman and it means that he must lose the land altogether. I know one particular headman who made a relative of his lose his land on the same terms and conditions . This particular headman was a member of the tribal authority and of the school board , but he was not ashamed to do a thing of this nature . When the poor woman came to report to me I advised her to go to the magistrateand ask him to try and get the land back for her. When she explained that she had already given the money for the tax on this particular land to a senior member of her family, the magistrate was taken aback. A member of a certain location came to me on this very point. This motion will assist the headmen in that they will be protected from blame for not serving the summons on the holder of the plot, and also it will be useful to the land holder in that he will never have his land taken away from him without his knowledge . We have had experience of this in Engcobo district and people who had had to give up their plots afterwards had them returned. I hope the two sides of the House will support this motion to try and protect the poor old women in the locations , for the summons will now be served directly on the plot holder in the presence of the headman . With those words I move the motion.
this matter has been raised during the past years at different places in South Africa. It does not affect the Transkeian citizens only but it is a matter which concerns the whole of the Republic. The motion was put and carried unanimously. THE CHAIRMAN : We should now take Motion No. 28 but the mover is not here , and the mover of Motion 42 is also not present. I think these motions should be struck off the order paper as the movers are not here. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, a situation of this nature can very well arise where there is business preceding a motion which might take up the time of the House for a long period . THE CHAIRMAN : I think he should suffer the consequences . I always tell the members they should be present . MR. GUZANA : They are here , Mr. Chairman , but they are out for the time. THE CHAIRMAN : But he is not in the House to move his motion. MR . GUZANA : You have extended this indulgence to quite a number of members , Mr. Chairman . I remember very well on one occasion when the Chairman was not here and we had to wait for him. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think in a matter of this nature we just pass over the motion and put it on the order paper for the next day. There are circumstances which render a member being absent only for a few minutes , not knowing his motion is coming. When we were small boys we used to use the phrase " He is skulking" . THE CHAIRMAN : Yes , but he should be brought to the Whip when he has a motion. We shall take Motion 4 on the order paper. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I can see today that everything seems to have been going smoothly and that the Government side is being civilized . I wish to request permission of the House to withdraw this motion. I notice that the two hon. Ministers concerned , the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Roads and Works , have had something to say in their policy speeches and I therefore see no reason to go on with this motion. All I want to do now is to contact them personally or by correspondence . Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
MR . O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not intend wasting much of your time , Sir , but I only wish to read to the House the provisions of Proclamation No. 196 of 1920 , section 5 ( c) . It reads as follows:- "Notice of the intention ofthe Minister to declare the allotment forfeited shall be served by a person authorised in writing by the magistrate by - (i) personal delivery of a copy thereof to a person named in such notice ; failing which (ii) by delivery of a copy of such notice to an inmate of his residence of the apparent age of 16 years or more; or failing that (iii) by posting a copy of such notice to the door of his last known residence in the ward or location of such person." You will therefore realise that at present we are tied down by the provisions of this section and , on the other hand, only next year we will be having a land bill in this House whereby we will make our own provisions which perhaps will suit the Transkei . Amongst those will be what the motion by the hon. member seeks . Therefore , Mr. Chairman , in order not to waste time by seeking to amend this section, I think the hon.
Agreed to. The motion was withdrawn . SERVING OF NOTICE OF FORFEITURE OF LAND ON LAND HOLDER MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move as follows :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of summoning the land holder together with the local headman in surveyed areas with a view to serving the notice of forfeiture of land personally on the land holder and explaining its exigencies." Mr. Chairman , the reason why I have brought
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MR. KUTU: This motion does not mean to protect only those chiefs that are not directly in this Assembly. It also protects those who are in the Assembly now, so that they cannot be blamed for not having served the summons on the plot owner as is the case at present. It is true that the Republican Government, and also the Transkei Government , can bear witness that these things happen not only at Engcobo but throughout all the districts of the Transkei . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there are matters which can be opposed by the Government
member can just withdraw his motion until next year when we introduce the bill. After all, it is but nine months or so. I therefore request the hon. member to withdraw his motion. Perhaps some other matters can be dealt with administratively O that is, in detail - rather than seek to amend the provisions of this section. Alternatively, if the hon. member does not withdraw then we will oppose it. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Don't hold a revolver to him. That is no argument .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your motion is unreasonable .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , in view of this explanation, is the hon. member prepared to withdraw the motion or not?
MR. KUTU : . . . .only because they emanate from the Opposition side and this leads the Government to the practice of opposing even clear and straightforward matters , giving the impression to the electorate that their views have not been properly represented in this Assembly. (Interjections) The purpose of this Government should be to help the people of the Transkei. We would like the Government to be aware that this side is representing the views of the electorate and the purpose of the Transkei Government is to help the people. I would like you to support this motion because the whole world is studying this country closely to find out whether what you say is to help build the Transkei or to destroy it. If it happens to be detrimental to the interests of the people then it will be maintained that this small Government is destroying the land of the Transkei . It is not to be understood that this new Government of the Transkei should have placed responsible duties on the Ministers who have no brain power . (Interjections )
MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of the Interior refers to matters that are likely to take place. THE CHAIRMAN: Are you prepared to withdraw or not? MR. MAJIJA : No. THE CHAIRMAN : So I will put the question. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am therefore compelled, Mr. Chairman, to move an amendment to this motion. The amendment reads as follows : " That the hon. member's motion be amended by the deletion of all the words after the word "Assembly" and the substitution therefor of the words :- 'the present method of serving notices of forfeiture as laid down in section 5 (c) of Proclamation No. 196 of 1920 is satisfactory ' . "
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Mr. Chairman, I have already read to the House the provisions of Proclamation 196 of 1920, section 5 (c) , and to my mind that section is self-explanatory. It is on those grounds that I oppose the motion.
MR. KUTU : Think of the hon. Ministers who we regard very highly · certainly higher than all the members in the Assembly and that the hon. Minister who was actually entrusted with matters of education should have failed totally to direct educational affairs in the Transkei.
MR. R. MSENGANA: I second the amendment , Mr. Chairman.
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I support this motion by the hon. member for Dalindyebo region. There is a certain mistake that occurs in the Reserves and this cannot be contradicted by anyone . It is that the summons stating that the plot referred to is to be forfeited is served on the owner of the plot through the headman. Unfortunately such summons does not go directly to the owner of the plot referred to. The owner therefore reports to the headman that the summons was not served on him directly and this leads to a quarrel and misunderstanding between the headman and the owner of the plot. (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , we appeal to you to bring that hon. member to order . He is discussing land matters here , not the Cabinet Ministers. We would not like to discuss the state in which he is just now, and therefore we appeal to you, Mr. Chairman, to call the hon. member to order. He is out of order . MR. KUTU : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. What the hon. Minister , Mr. G. M. Matanzima , has said is reasonable and if he invites me to his wedding feast I promise I shall be present. ( Laughter) I shall also give him a wedding present.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I second .
MR. KUTU: When the owner of the plot tries to pay the tax owing on the land he finds that he cannot do so and this leads to the suspicion that the headman has been bribed in order to deprive the owner of his plot and pass it on to another person. We know it is not all the chiefs who accept these bribes although we are aware that some of them are prone to this practice . (Interjections) The man who has to forfeit the land naturally suspects that the person who is given the land has paid a fee to the headman. (Interjections)
Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 7th June , 1967.
WEDNESDAY, 7TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
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as read and confirmed.
laws, but when you get out of the Transkei you will meet trouble, particularly with our traffic laws. With reference to the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on various aspects of the Bill I wish to reply as follows : - No vehicle may be bought or sold without a certificate of roadworthiness . Roadworthiness concerns itself entirely with the safe use of a vehicle on the road. For example , its brakes must function efficiently; the steering mechanism must be mechanically sound; all lights must operate properly; the hooter must function; the wheels and tyres must be sound , and so on. The certificate does not concern itself with the condition of the engine or some other aspect over which the buyer may later find himself let down, due to sales pressure by the seller. The person issuing the roadworthy certificate must conform with the qualifications laid down in the Bill , and is a person wholly unconnected with the motor trade in a financial sense. In the Transkei he is appointed by the Minister , and elsewhere by the Administrator or Municipality. He cannot influence the seller or the buyer one way or another and is merely concerned with the roadworthiness of the vehicle . At the present moment such a person will have to be White since there are no Bantu mechanics available on the one hand , nor are there as yet any local authorities in Bantu areas where such a person would be able to operate .
ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that Chief Xakatile Mlindazwe of Qaukeni region and Chief Hlomendlini Magadla of Maluti region have , through ilness , been unable to attend the sittings of this Assembly. It now appears unlikely that either of them will in fact be able to attend any future sittings of this session. As you are aware , section 31 ( c) of the Constitution Act , 1963 , provides that the seat of a member ofthe Legislative Assembly shall be deemed to have been vacated if such member fails for a whole ordinary session to attend any sittings ofthe Assembly without its special leave . In view of the fact that the members in question have been prevented through illness from attending any sittings ofthis session I now request the Assembly, in order to safeguard the seats of the two members , that it grant special leave to Chiefs Xakatile Mlindazwe and Hlomendlini Magadla not to attend any sittings of this session of the Legislative Assembly. I am making this request in terms of section 31 (c ) of the Constitution Act. I have no doubt that the members of the Opposition will support this request . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the absence of these two members is due to circumstances beyond their control , and if events previous to this session can be taken into account, the hon. the Chief Minister might himself have been in a similar position . This side of the House has no objection to granting these members special leave to be absent from the sittings of this session and for them to continue to be members of the Legislative Assembly.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Why bring in a Bill then?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Nevertheless , looking into the not too distant future , the time will come when there will be both a Transkeian registering authority and a Bantu examiner of vehicles . MR . K.M. GUZANA : The idea was that the obligation should rest upon the seller to obtain a roadworthy certificate . That is the main thing.
Agreed to.
MINISTER OF ROADS : I am coming to that. The roadworthy certificate concerns the vehicle only. From the point of view of registration it is the certificate which counts and not whether the buyer or the seller took the trouble or faced the costs of obtaining it. There must be many cases where a garage is the buyer and undertakes all the bother connected with obtaining a clearance certificate in order to promote its business of, on the one hand , selling a new car to the owner of the used car and, on the other hand, selling this car again to an interested party. There must also be many instances when a deceased estate wishes to dispose of a car to realise this asset. It is much more convenient to both parties if the buyer undertakes to obtain the roadworthy certificate .
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS MR. R. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts , 1967. NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Thursday, 8th June , 1967 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for a liquor law for the Transkei . TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC BILL : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in reply to the debate on the second reading of the Road Traffic Bill I wish to express my appreciation to the hon. members for their co-operation in the passing of this stage of the Bill. To me it does not matter whether we shall emulate the Republic or the four provinces as long as the subject matter is good. It is only the objectionable things that must be discouraged . We are a self-governing state and as such we can always legislate and amend any existing law to suit our conditions , so members should have no fear because the interest of the country and its people is our first consideration . Although we are a self-governing state , as I said , we have a common boundary , common currency and common highways with the Republic and so we should be as near as possible to uniformity. It is all very well to have different
MR . GUZANA : But if the car is sold as an asset in an estate it is sold "voetstoots " and the buyer buys it knowing that he buys it as it is, without any guarantee and with all its defects , but I am taking the case of a buyer buying from a seller and with all the pressure of sales talk the seller gets the buyer to buy it. Now if there is no provision for the seller to obtain a roadworthy certificate to accompany the sale it means that the public may be preyed upon by unscrupulous sellers . In the case of a garage the price is determined by the condition of the car if it is traded in, and if it is in an unroadworthy condition the motor dealer buys it and fixes it, taking into account that it is not in a roadworthy condition, and he makes it roadworthy. That is the gravamen of my argument. That is why I say the obligation must be on the seller . 337 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Don't you think that will come in at the committee stage ?
by large signboards and notice boards . Another point raised by the hon. member was in connection with an inebriated driver sitting at the wheel of the car while the engine is running. The inebriated person sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle, the engine of which is running, is attempting to commit an offence by intending to drive a car under the influence of liquor . The Bill deals only with the appointment of traffic officers and and qualifications necessary for such appointments.
MR. GUZANA: If the hon. Minister accepts the principle. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You can move an amendment in the committee stage. MR . GUZANA : We want to know whether or not the Minister is favourably disposed to that. If we pass it now he will say we cannot bring any amendment in the committee stage because we have accepted the principle.
MR. RAJUILI: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I take it that we are debating the Bill by the hon. Minister and I take it that the hon. Minister concerned is now replying to that debate . Now, while we do not mind anybody reading from notes in replying, is the hon. Minister allowed to read out from a thick bundle of typewritten papers as though he is making a policy speech?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: The main thing is to get uniformity because in the other provinces this law operates in the same way, so there is absolutely no discrimination of any kind to anybody because this obtains in the whole of the Republic, including the Transkei as well. MR. GUZANA: Yes , I concede that that is the fact, but if we see that this provision which applies to the whole of the Republic is a disadvantageous one , are we not going to put it right where we feel that the alternative is justified for our purpose in the Transkei , because in your reply you concede the argument?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Those are his notes . Do you quarrel because they are typewritten? MR . RAJUILI : We are aware that the Ministers have to consider their policy speeches , but these are not notes. It is a long typewritten document.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: But I said in my remarks that we are a self-governing state and if we see that these things need alteration we can do it later.
THE CHAIRMAN : If you remember well, hon. member , you asked that he should answer these questions after consideration. Now he must read from his notes.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But what sort of man buys a car that is not roadworthy ? Can't he insist on the seller seeing that it is roadworthy?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He is resorting to his notes . There is no law which says he must hide his notes . THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on, hon. Minister.
MR . GUZANA: Yes , but the seller says : Take it or leave it.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is a pity that the hon. member has raised a point of order on this matter , because some of the points that were raised yesterday were of a technical nature and had to be dealt with as such. There would be no point in my replying to them in a haphazard way. In that spirit , therefore , I tried to collect as much information as was possible .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But there are many garages in the country. The thing is , it is optional on both sides .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Coming to the next point raised by the hon. member dealing with people suffering from heart attacks , I wish to draw attention to the fact that agitation , even undue agitation , is recorded on the graph only as a faster , harder heart-beat which is recognizable as agitation or some similar stimulus . What the medical practiotioner is looking for is the pathological symptioms of a diseased heart, not an agitated one , and the graph clearly shows the difference . Now, the Bill merely states that people found to be suffering from a heart complaint as shown by an electrocardiogram will be disqualified . It does not provide for sending a person to a practitioner to have himself tested for this condition merely on suspicion, let us say for example, of a traffic officer. In practice this particular provision will most generally come into operation when a person, feeling worried about his state of health, has himself examined and is then advised by the medical practitioner that according to the test the state of his heart is such that he is not fit to drive a car. The Leader of the Opposition should therefore rest assured that people already suffering from a distressing heart condition will not be subjected to further emotional upsets and strains by this provision in the Bill. The next point is the 35 m.p.h. speed limit. As stated in my speech, the concentration of buildings alone is an indication to any motorist that he has entered an urban area and is no longer in the country. Besides this , very many (if not all ) of the towns advertise the urban area
MR. RAJUILI: We are not against that. We are against reading in a debate. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The leader of the Opposition made a suggestion .. MR. GUZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we would like the best possible reply to the points made and I would not like the hon. Minister circumscribed in any way. We would like to give him carte blanche in this respect . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The Leader of the Opposition made a suggestion that there should be a space two to three feet wide marked in white along the road to prevent cars coming close together. That would be an expensive thing because the roads would have to be made wider and it would involve a great deal of expense.
MR. GUZANA: Isn't that at the present moment the contemplation of the National Roads Council , to have the roads widened ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , but on our country roads we cannot have such wide roads . The national roads are the concern of the Provincial Department .
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MR. GUZANA: In view of the fact that we want uniformity, is it not possible for you to put that suggestion to them, that as they widen the road so they should leave this middle section free? It is not all painted white , but is two parallel white lines .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I was upset by your members .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : As I say, the national roads are a responsibility of the Provincial Department, so there is nothing we can do about them. Coming to the point of traffic officers . Efforts will be made to have traffic officers trained in our technical college . We get our young people trained even in the Republic at the present moment and this morning there was one in my office with a certificate that he was a trained mechanic , so that you can see that we are making all efforts to get our men trained to get these diplomas .
The Transkei Road Traffic Bill was read a second time .
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall put the question that the Bill be read a second time. Agreed to.
MR. RAJUILI : Does he hold the diploma as envisaged in your Bill ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , he does. MR. GUZANA: A diploma as a mechanic? THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Yes , in motor mechanics .
MR. GUZANA: While we want a diploma as a traffic officer. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Traffic officers also hold mechanics ' certificates . Coming tothe question of registration numbers , that is done to facilitate records , but if a car is sold outside a registering centre , for instance , the owner ofthe car is then able to have his registration number.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: The committee stage will be on Friday, 9th June , Mr. Chairman. TRANSKEI CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT BILL MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have craved the indulgence of the Chairman to comment on a matter which I think affects the personnel of this Assembly. In today's issue of the Daily Dispatch there is a report of a new bill which is before the House of Assembly in Cape Town, and certain figures are given in this report indicating the apportionment of chiefs to the various districts of the Transkei . It would appear that the figures so given are not the same as the figures which were simultaneously allocated to the various districts when the 1963 balloting for membership of chiefs took place . Just to give an example , Mr. Chairman, this House has three chiefs from the Lusikisiki district and it would appear according to the report here that there will only be two coming to this House , and there are similar figures which are not in accordance with figures of chiefs coming here from the various districts which belong to the different electoral divisions . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What about the total in a region? MR . GUZANA: It is still the same. Now , Sir, I think we should have a statement from the hon. the Chief Minister about this matter. There might be an error in the reporting here, and this House would like to have some assurance on this matter if the Chief Minister has a copy of this bill which is before the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town. That is a matter of urgency which I thought I would raise . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, on behalf ofthe hon. the Chief Minister, who is not in the House , I wish to advise the House that the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition have been noted. MR. GUZANA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. SERVING OF NOTICE OF FORFEITURE OF LAND ON LAND HOLDER The debate was resumed . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , throughout the day yesterday we had a very calm sitting in this House , and I do not intend to disturb that calmness . I only wish to make a few remarks in support of the amendment made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior . The motion by the hon. member for Dalindyebo , Mr. L.Z. Majija , reads as follows : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of summoning the land holder together with the local headman in surveyed areas with a view to serving the notice of forfeiture of land personally on the land holder and explaining it exigencies. " I first of all wish to say that this motion is very vague in the highest degree. The procedure of forfeiture of arable allotments was first of all promulgated under Proclamation 196 of 1920 , but before I read a relevant section in that Proclamation I would like to say that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will agree with me when I say that the question of effecting ser-
MR. GUZANA: Now, what is he going to do with the registration number that attaches to the second-hand car that he is buying, if he is able to retain the number that attaches to the car he has sold to the buyer in another registering centre ? Will he be able to drop that? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : He will make arrangements with the registering officer. MR . GUZANA : And the number that attaches to the car he is buying is dropped and becomes vacant for anybody to take it up?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes . Now, coming to the questions raised by the hon. member, the Revd. B.S. Rajuili , he stated in his remarks that we preach one thing and do another and that we are not practising the policy of separate development as it should be practised . We will be able to do that when we have sufficient personnel in all these respects . It would be improper for us to discard officers who know some of these things because we want Africans to learn some of these things . He also mentioned that we were trying to adopt a uniform code just for the sake of uniformity. As a matter of fact, I think it is a reasonable thing to take all the good things, no matter from what source they come, particularly in connection with these traffic laws , because if our Transkeians had a different code it would be a very difficult thing for them to adjust themselves when they go out of the Transkei to other places . There was not muchto comment on in the statement made by the hon. member for Maluti . I now move that the Bill be read a second time. MR. GUZANA : What about the 70 m.p.h. limit? You have missed that one .
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vice of processes and documents has caused a lot of trouble in the law courts . There have been instances where defendants in civil cases have denied personal service which has been shown on the back ofthe summons as having been effected personally. I think, therefore , that the mover of the motion had in mind, or was trying to bring about, some solution to the difficulty , but I think, as I shall show him, that he is trying to solve a difficulty by creating other difficulties. In the first place his motion does not say who must summon the land holder and the headman. It is a well-known fact that arable allotments are not just forfeited without reason. Let us take a hypothetical case of a man who is a land holder and who, according to the grounds on which a land may be forfeited , is liable to have his land forfeited. Now this motion says that that man must be summoned together with the headman. For a while I am going to forget who must do the summoning. Supposing the man is a " tshipa " - how is that man going to be summoned ? Supposing the registered holder is an aged, infirm old lady how is that old lady going to be summoned? Supposing the registered holder is a man who is a cripple - how is that person going to be summoned? In any event, supposing the person summoned does not go - how will the service be effected ? He cannot even be charged with disobeying the lawful order of the magistrate or the person summoning because for an order to be lawful it mut have the backing of the law. As the Proclamation stands , No. 311 of 1957 , which is operative at the present moment, there is nothing to the effect that a land owner must be summoned. The hon. the Minister of the Interior intimated that there was legislation which was to be brought to this House next year and even promised that he would consider the inclusion of what the hon. member seeks in that legislation .
known place of residence . MR. GUZANA : And if there is no door ? (laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, there is also a further way of ensuring that these messengers do show how they effect service although, as I have said, the Leader of the Opposition will agree that the persons upon whom service was effected usually deny even if there was an endorsement to say it was effected personally . It says the person serving the notice shall endorse the notice and deliver it to the magistrate . Now over and above these other modes of service it says that in addition the magistrate shall post for a period of 28 days on his office notice board a list of all allotments in respect ofwhich notices have been issued for service under a notice signed by the magistrate to the effect that it is the intention of the Minister to declare them forfeited. MR . GUZANA : I was going to say, Mr. Minister, that despite these modes of service , when the defendant comes to the court and says he has never received service the courts are inclined to grant the application for rescission. Is that the case in the surveyed allotments ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is not for me to say. That is for the person who reviews each case. (Laughter ) Now, the position is that what the hon. member should have sought is that these facts should be brought to the notice of the people. People who are defaulters know that they are defaulters , so that if the chiefs and headmen do hammer it in their locations that the people who are defaulters must pay their taxes or rents or whatever they might be called , and if not they must keep watch at the magistrate's office to see if their lands are not in the list of the lands which are to be forfeited . But I feel that the motion brought forward by my hon. friend will create more difficulties than we have at the present moment under this Proclamation .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Possible inclusion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Possible inclusion and the hon. member rejected all that. Now, formerly the position was " Should any registered holder of an allotment under Proclamation No. 227 of 1889 (Cape) or Proclamation No. 241 of 1911 remain for a period of two years in default in the payment of quitrent or of any annual instalments of the cost of survey his allotment may be declared forfeited by the Minister of Native Affairs : Provided that notice of intention of the Governor - General or the Minister of Native Affairs to declare the allotment forfeited shall be posted by the resident magistrate of the district at the courthouse and at the premises of the registered holder for a period of 28 days . " So that formerly it was only the question of having the notice posted on the notice board at the magistrate's office and also pinning a copy at the door of the premises of the registered holder . This was found to be an unsatisfactory mode of effecting service and hence the amending Proclamation No. 311 of 1957. There the three modes of effecting service were explained to you by the hon . the Minister of the Interior yesterday - namely , service personal (that is , by a person duly authorized by the magistrate in writing, which would mean that even if a person is an old cripple or does not want to come, if he is found at his premises by the person the notice can be served personally); secondly, if that mode of service cannot be effected then by delivery of a notice on an inmate who is above the age of 16 ; and if that also cannot be effected , probably by the premises having been deserted by a "tshipa " , then a notice is placed on the door of the last
MR. A.G. SASA: How can people be summoned to the magistrate's office ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Now that is a proper question. In any event, that is the question I put to the hon. member who said that these people must be summoned . How are they going to go there when they are summoned ? Don't ask it from me. Ask it from the hon. member , because a person who cannot walk and who knows that he has not paid rent for his land can send the headman to look at the magistrate's office to see whether or not his land is among those to be forfeited.
MR. SASA: Why does he not do that ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Because he doesn't care . He just seats down knowing very well he has not paid. But what I want to know from you is how is that particular person going to go to the magistrate's office if he cannot walk. MR. SASA : ( Inaudible remark)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is provided here . You are with me because that is what is provided here , that a person who carries a document under the hand of the magistrate must go and effect service personally on the person. That is provided for . So , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , those are the only remarks I wanted to make in connection with this motion . 340.
MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I would appeal to the members on the other side not to be afraid today because I too wish the peace which we experienced yesterday to continue today. I am also happy to see there is a smile of the face of my friend, the hon. the Chief Minister. I rise to support this motion as it is. I would like it to be noted that the difficulty in regard to the question is this : I was not particularly keen to speak on this motion, but the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior has compelled me to say something. In the prologue to his speech he said there will be a bill next year to amend the present Proclamation. In his amendment , however, he states that the Proclamation as it stands is in order.
obliterate it. The hon. Minister asked what would happen in the case of a cripple or someone unable to go and present himself to the magistrate. Such a disabled individual may send someone on his behalf to go and give the necessary explanations. What we would like this House to note is that people have their lands forfeited by incorrect methods . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Why don't they pay their taxes ? MR. MPONDO: The hon. Minister asks why they do not pay their taxes. I am quite certain the Minister himself has accounts which he does not pay. If I were to ask why he does not pay them, would he be able to tell me ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I never said the Bill would amend the Proclamation.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I am exempted . (Laughter)
MR. MPONDO: I am left wondering now what it is that will be amended , when at the same time the Proclamation is in order.
MR. MPONDO: I do not want to justify the action of the land owner in not paying his taxes, but circumstances sometimes place them in the position of not being able to pay. The hon. member asks who must then serve this notice on the owner of the plot. There is an office which deals with the administration of these plots and that is the office which must send the summons to the owner of the plot. Seeing that the headmen are not, in many cases , trustworthy in this connection a policeman ought to be sent directly to the owner of the plot to give him notice that he is required at the office. In serving this notice the policeman can go to the headman and show him that the owner has signed that he has received the notice. If we were to follow this procedure there would be no complaints from the members of the public that they are made to forfeit their plots without sufficient explanation being given. With those words I support this motion.
MR. GUZANA: You said there will be a possible amendment to include the idea expressed by the member. MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, this is what disturbs people in connection with this matter. If it happens that a particular plot is likely to be forfeited and the Proclamation states that the owner of the plot should be served with notice to that effect, he may not receive the notice according to the Proclamation. Allow me to say that what I am referring to actually happens in Fingoland. It happens that a notice from the office is given to the headman to pass on to the owner of the plot referred to, and this is not done. It may be that the very headman who has been instructed to serve the notice intends to do harm to the owner ofthe plot. It may also be that the headman wishes this plot to be transferred to another person, instead of the present owner. There is bribery, therefore , in connection with these plots and that bribery encourages the headman not to inform the owner of the plot of the notice served on him. Very many complaints have come from Fingoland in connection with matters similar to this and I am quite certain that it is not only in Fingoland that there are these complaints , but elsewhere as well. When the summons has been issued to the owner of the plot to appear before the magistrate with the headman it will help protect the headman from being accused. It may happen that the person referred to is not at home himself, but he may have close relatives at home . They will go and explain that the person referred to is absent. What is important is that the owner of the plot or his close relatives must know that the land is likely to be forfeited.
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will just take about ten minutes on this matter. It would appear that despite the provisions in the Proclamation read out to us, there is still some difficulty in getting the land owner to know that he might forfeit his land , and the question to be answered is : What other method can be followed in order to minimize this danger which arises from the fact that the land holder does not receive notice because of interests acquired by other people in the land about to be forfeited? The mover of this motion has suggested that the service should be effected personally on the owner, or rather, the owner of the land and the headman should be summoned to the magistrate's office . I take it that is what he means. Now, in view of the fact that the headman may have an interest in this land on behalf of somebody else, is it not possible that the notice of intended forfeiture be served by the Messenger of the Court?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If this is such a common occurrence why do the people never raise the matter at the quarterly meetings with the magistrate ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is something different. MR. GUZANA : Yes. You see , I think the hon. member who moved is really seeking ways and means so as to protect the interests of the land owner and I think I can make this suggestion under his motion. There will be costs incurred in the service . If the land owner seeks to redeem his land he will pay his arrears , together with the Messenger's costs. Alternatively, whoever acquires the land will have to pay the arrear rental , together with the Messenger's costs . The main idea is to find ways and means of protecting the rights of the land owner to the land so that he does not feel agrieved in any way.
MR. MPONDO: The hon. Minister asks why this is not reported at quartely meetings with the magistrate . If he looked at the minutes of quarterly meetings at Butterworth he would find it recorded there . The magistrate has said in reply that the process of serving these summonses is quite in order. He mentioned that this should be served on the person or pinned to the door, or even be posted in the plot of land referred to. If the notice is pinned to the door anybody may tear it off, and if it is posted on the plot itself the rain may come and ruin or
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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And after you have spoken the hon. member will have to withdraw his motion.
(ii) that the rented dwelling houses should be situated within the boundaries of the Municipal or Village Management Board areas. " The present situation is that the percentage rental is 71/2 per cent or 121/2 per cent whichever is lesser. In other words , it means 71/2 per cent of the salary against 121/2 per cent of the value of the house . In that case the rental becomes 71/2 of the salary, if it is less than 121/2 per cent of the value of the house ; or 121/2 percent of the value of the house if that is less than 71/2 per cent of the salary of the officer, which is tantamount to a clerk who earns about R100 a month paying about R13 a month on rent. So one can see that the rentals of these houses are not commensurate with their face value or their appearance . I will say first that these houses originate from Natal .
MR. GUZANA: Well , that is one ofthe ways in which he thought he could secure the rights of the land owner . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The mode of service. MR. GUZANA: Yes , now I am suggesting another one which perhaps might be more effective than the one he has suggested. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who suggested that ? MR. GUZANA : I have suggested the Messenger of the Court, and I have also suggested how the Messenger's costs can be met, either by the land owner or the new owner if the land is forfeited. Can this suggestion not be regarded as an added safeguard for these people ? It may well satisfy too the complaint that has motivated the motion moved by the hon. member , and that could be done administratively until next year when we have this land bill when this might possibly be included in the modes of service .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The hous-
es? MR. LUWACA: Yes , where they were first built. I mean the scheme.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If you mean the scheme don't say the houses . You talk nonsense and you expect us to listen. MR. LUWACA: Those houses were cheaply built for people in Natal who could not find accommodation. They were so cheep the Europeans did not want to rent them and they were eventually transferred to Africans in Natal , so this scheme drifted into the Transkei since the Government considered that it was a good source of revenue. Say, now, the way the value of these houses is decided is by the works foreman or the magistrate or someone .
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall not allowmore than two more speakers on this motion. It has been thoroughly discussed . I will allow one more speaker and then the mover can reply.
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Are you sure of your facts ?
The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , Ithink the suggestion made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition this morning before we adjourned is a very very sound one · that is , that these notices of forfeiture be served by Messengers ofthe Court and I can assure this House that that will be included in the Land Act that will be introduced in this House next year. In the circumstances I am prepared to withdraw my amendment if the hon. member will also withdraw his motion. I am putting the " if" because I am not quite sure if he is withdrawing his motion.
MR. LUWACA: You may get a good-natured magistrate who thinks that the value of the house should be made low so that the clerk can afford it, but you also get other cases where the magistrate is on good terms with the clerk concerned, as much as you can get a magistrate who has enmity for the clerk who is going to occupy the dwelling. So it goes to show why these building rentals are so inconsistent . For instance , I will quote you a few instances where these houses are built in locations - that is , on communal land , say, for instance , in Nqamakwe , Willowvale, Tsomo , Cala, Butterworth , Idutywa and so on - and you get a few which are built on VMB land and these houses vary so much in size . For instance , at Idutywa the dwelling is 70 by 70.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the motion in favour of the suggestion and amendment made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Guzana .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The dwelling?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Thank you, Mr. Chairman , and I also withdraw my amendment.
MR. LUWACA : I mean the whole place . It is well thatched and properly fenced and you find that at Nqamakwe the same place is 30 by 40. You will find that they are poorly fenced so that it is hard for these occupiers to plant their vegetables and be safe from stock. You again find that you get magistrates who are paying less than grade 2 clerks for the same dwellings . If you consider that they stay in decent houses with about three to four bedrooms , lounge , dining-room, etc. , you find that there are just sufficient facilities , and when you get to the dwellings occupied by Africans you find them very inadequately equipped , starting with the door which does not even open on the outside , as though it is a stable , two bedrooms, one dining-
THE CHAIRMAN : The motion and amendment are therefore withdrawn. RENTALS : HOUSING FOR GOVERNMENT SERVANTS MR . L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability (i) that for all Government buildings built for occupation by African clerks , rentals should be determined at a rate per cent on the income of the clerk lower than at present;
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room/sitting-room, one kitchen that is very small , and , of course , a very, very small stove , and you find that there is what is supposed to be a bathroom which has not even got a bath inside so that the appeal is really that now it would mean that the senior clerk would pay far more than the magistrate for this dwelling. So, Mr. Chairman , this is really something now that even my friends on the Government side should consider seriously because , say the percentage was at aflat rate for interest's sake , you now see that these houses are not the same. So now I would request that to meet these occupiers the percentage rental should be lowered. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: must give the figure.
think a comparison between the rent paid for these houses and that paid for private houses shows that the rent for these official quarters is less. These public servants were thankful to get these houses , as formerly they could get no accommodation and they were exposed to all types of weather. Moreover, the rent paid in the Transkei is less than the rent paid in the Republic because in the Republic the rent is determined at 121/2 per cent of the official's salary , whereas here in the Transkei it is 10 per cent of the official's salary , and when the value of the building is considered the official pays 121/2 per cent. That is nowwithin the municipal areas, whereas in the rural areas the rent comes down to five per cent. As the hon. member has rightly pointed out it is not our intention to oppress our Bantu officials. I would like to know from the hon. member, if he owned a house like one of these would he demand a lower rental for it? It is not an easy thing for any Government to put up houses at high cost and then get nothing in return. In regard to the second portion of the motion to the effect that these houses should be built within municipal areas, the hon. member stated that originally the idea was that the Africans should be removed as far away from Europeans as possible, but that is incorrect because in many towns in the Transkei there are Bantu who own properties adjacent to the properties of the Whites . The real reason for building these houses outside the municipal area was non-availability of sites, and now that zoning has been started it will no longer be necessary for people to have these places built far away from their places of employment. It is not easy to carry out the suggestion of the hon. member that the rent should be reduced or be determined so that it becomes almost negligible , in which case the Government gets almost nothing in return. Supposing the mover were in the Government party, would he just give away houses ? We are as determined as he is to see that the Government employees are provided with accommodation.
To what? You
MR . LUWACA: Lowered to about 21/2 per cent against 31/2 per cent, whichever is lesser . So I think now I will sit down and ask that you should not consider this in the light of politics. Now, most of these buildings are far from the towns or villages. I will cite Tsolo where the the village is about 31/2 miles from town. These houses are not on the commonage - they are right outside in the location, so one can see where a clerk has to start his duty in Tsolo at 8 o'clock and he has to walk about 31/2 miles in rainy weather, cold weather and so on. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What do you suggest should be done with those houses that are in existence ? MR. LUWACA: They should be sold. People will buy them because they are hardly worth a thing. Some ofthem are not worth R200 . Again, at Ngqeleni they are about 21/2 miles away for no reason at all. At Nqamakwe they are about two miles. I think it is not at all warranted for people working in town. To reply to my hon. friend, whether it is a mile or not it is not called for when the man is supposed to work in town. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When are you going to speak Xhosa? You are getting so mixed up.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Minister, the complaint is that the person who lives in a smaller house pays the rental which, in comparison with the rental paid by an official who lives in a bigger and better house, is really high.
MR. LUWACA: So the second part of my motion requests that these houses should be built within the town or VMB area. We can understand the object of these dwellings having been built so far from the village, because it was just that Africans should be very far away from the Europeans. ( Interjections) So now, with our policy of multi- racialism I think they can be built within the VMB area. I move accordingly .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: No, I don't believe that because we know the valuation of these houses because the occupant has the option of paying a percentage of his salary or ofthe value of the house. I am not quite sure what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition means in putting a case where people pay differently, because when we give this option of the value of the house and his salary we think it is the only proper thing to do. Perhaps the hon. member knows something that I do not know.
MR. L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the following amendment: That all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted and the following substituted therefor :"the present basis for the determination of the rental of official quarters , as laid down in Transkeian Goverment Service Regulation No. 15 (1), is equitable and the siting of official quarters outside the boundaries of Municipal or Village Management Boards , where the public interest so demands, unavoidable. " Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that these houses were originally built forthe benefit of Government servants who had no place to live in. Such persons could not even rent houses in towns or villages in the Transkei . Moreover, it is the usual thing to pay rent for houses and I
MR. M.H. CANCA: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion as it stands originally. The hon. the Minister of Roads has failed to explain why some ofthese dwellings were built outside the municipal areas . He is running away from the fact that the Transkei as such has never really provided for residential areas for Africans in its uraban area , especially the small dorps . He tells us of certain individuals having property in those areas, even before the zoning proclamation. That is a fact, but the VM B as such have never really cared for the interests of the African people. Again, he tells us that the 343.
rentals in the Republic are much higher than they are in the Transkei and he says, for instance, that in the Republic it is 121/2 per cent of the salary of the clerk, whereas in the Transkei it is 10 per cent. Now, let us compare the type of house provided in the Republic and those that have been provided for the clerks in the Transkei . As far as I know in Johannesburg and Pretoria and all the other cities in the Republic there are no houses built specially for the clerks , but there are houses that are built for Africans for hire. They are built by the Municipality and the Municipality rents those houses on the basis of the value of the house built. For a fourroomed house , irrespective of salary, you pay a certain rental , and so there is no question of determination of rental on the basis of salary. That therefore falls off at once , because if you know yourself to be earning a very low salary there are some derelict houses for rent by those who wish to rent them. What we are trying to argue here is that in the Transkei the houses are nothing but shanties and the rental of 12 per cent or 10 per cent is too high, and 10 per cent of the salary is also very high. We are not arguing that the Government is not going to do anything for the clerks , or asking whether it is doing anything for the clerks , but in doing something the Government must consider the percentage on the salary of the clerk concerned and the quality of the house it rents out to the clerk. Again, all the houses that have been built in the rural area, I think we are all aware that there is a big shortage of land in the rural areas , especially at one place in the Nqamakwe district where the houses have been built and there are people today who are clamouring for kraal sites , and that is in the rural areas , not the urban area of Nqamakwe . Those people occupying that land are working in the urban area . The magistrates themselves have built their houses in the urban area and just next to the magistrates ' offices . Why must I be required to travel two or three miles to get to work? For these reasons I think the sooner the Government sells those houses in the rural areas and builds houses within the municipal areas the better, and the cost of the building must be taken into account when levying rentals . Would it be fair, hon. Minister, with your R4,000 to be demanded to pay R200 rent on the houses that are built by the Umtata Municipality, and I , with my R40 be required to pay R2 for the same house under the same conditions ? That is the trouble. The houses are just the same , but only because a man is getting a higher salary he is required to pay 121/2 per cent. If you were to put a flat rate of, say, R1.50 it would meet the case of the man on the lower grade and the one on the higher grade , and then ifthe man with the higher salary feels like getting a better house he can find one elsewhere , but the lower paid clerk would be well catered for. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish some of the members across the floor, before they bring motions before this House , would consult the departments of the Transkei Government. It would appear that they merely bring up these motions in order to confuse the public . The hon. member who has just spoken has left the chamber and I regret that he will not be able to hear my reply to him . The motion as it stands calls upon the Government of the Transkei to consider the advisability that for all Government buildings built for occupation by African clerks , rentals should be determined at a rate per cent on the income of the clerk lower than at present. Now, he does not tell us what that rental is in the motion. Should we assume that he is merely trying to confuse
the issues or to play to the galleries ? What he seeks here is what the Government of the Transkei has already done . Before the establishment of this Government the rentals were as follows , as explained by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works: 121/2 per cent in the Republic , including the Transkei at the time , of the tenant's pay and allowances , whether the house was situated in the urban area or the rural area. That was the position in so far as the Republic was concerned . Alternatively, the tenant could choose to pay the rental which was provided for in accordance with the value of the building , which was 71/2 per cent of the valuation of the house and the grounds . Now, it is for the man, if he gets a high salary , to choose and find out what the value of the building is , and if the value of the building is far less than his salary then he pays 71/2 per cent. But the Transkei Government found that this was still a high rental that is , 121/2 per cent and the Cabinet decided that the rentals should be as follows : 10 per cent if the house is in the urban area and 71/2 per cent if the house is in a rural area of the tenant's salary, but we retained the 71/2 per cent of the value of the building. Now, are you going to show the Republican Government who subsidizes this Assembly that in the Transkei you have so much money? I do not want to tell you that there has been squealing in the Republican Government quarters about the reduction of these rentals , because in the Republic your own fellowmen still pay 121/2 per cent. Surely you don't want to bring us into a deadlock with the Republican Government who subsidizes this Assembly? We have got to be reasonable in our actions . Now, with regard to the other part ofthe motion - that all these houses should be situated within the municipal area - that is a ridiculous suggestion . Suppose the house of a clerk in the Forestry Department is next to a forest - must we say that that man must go and live in a municipal area?
MR. GUZANA: Don't be ridiculous . THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am not. I am replying to his question . We on this side of the House moved that the towns should be zoned and you objected to that. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : It was just the Republican programme . It happened without this Assembly. It was provided in the Act . THE CHIEF MINISTER : In the Act which you do not recognise . (Interjections ) It is only now that the Transkei Government will be able to erect houses for the civil servants within the municipal area. We are not responsible for the houses which were built outside the municipal area. It is your policy , as a matter of fact, so don't come and complain on a matter which you want maintained . (Interjections) You said that the status quo should be maintained . Now, no more houses will be built outside the municipal area unless it is in the interests of the particular official that the house should be situated outside the municipal area. For example , where in the Roads Department you have . CHIEF H. ZULU: Why have you built out at Tolofiya ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : That was our choice . We did not want to mix up with commoners . (Laughter) So we cannot lay down a hard and fast rule and say that all the houses of the civil servants will be within the municipal area , and we cannot demolish the houses which were built before the Transkei Government took over be344.
cause those houses may have a very low valuation and some of the civil servants may wish to go and live in those houses in order to avoid the 10 per cent rental . Mind you, the 10 per cent is R7.50 in every R100 , for those who don't know that. You will appreciate that the rental is very high in the urban areas. You pay R4 or R6 for only one room , so I think you will appreciate the position that we have got to be very reasonable in everything we say or do , and I hope the hon. member will withdraw this motion after this explanation. Don't put the Government in a position which will make it appear ridiculous . You want everything to be free . I think you have appreciated what I have explained now.
MR. BUBU : On my arrival at the scheme I was welcomed by the officer in charge and he showed me round. I was able to see the planting of the tea seeds and saw the seedlings grown, and I was also shown how they were transplanted from one place to another. The officer in charge was very kind and he gave me all the information relating to the scheme as a whole , and at the end of it all , Mr. Chairman , I was convinced that the scheme had great possibilities. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. BUBU: I think in this connection the Department of the irresponsible Minister must be complimented upon as a result of what I saw.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wonder if the hon. member had better withdraw his motion after the explanation given?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I can't take that lying down. Mr. Chairman, I object to that remark by the hon. member. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Sit down.
MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, in view ofthe explanation given by the hon. the Chief Minister , I have decided to withdraw the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I object to the remark by the hon. member saying that the Minister of Agriculture is an irresponsible Minister .
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree ? Agreed to. The motion was withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . I do not think there is anything much in that. (Laughter) Carry on.
CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT AT LAMBASI TEA AND COFFE SCHEME MR. T.H. BUBU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of considering the conditions under which labourers at the Lambasi Tea and Coffee Scheme work with a view to raising their wages. " Mr. Chairman, it will be noted that I am drawing the attention of this House to conditions under which labourers in the tea and coffe scheme are working , and that after considering the conditions the Government should see whether it is proper to let their wages remain at what they are or to raise them . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What are the wages ? MR. BUBU: I think what is necessary for me at this stage is to set out to focus the attention of this House on what I consider the working conditions to be there . Last year I had occasion to pay a visit to that scheme for the purpose of seeing what was going on and what the nature of the conditions was . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What day of the week was that when you went to interfere with my labourers ? MR. BUBU : The Minister of Agriculture wants to know whether I went there to interfere with the workers . I can assure him , Mr. Chairman, through you that as a responsible representative of the people who are connected with that scheme I made a proper approach to the problem . I consulted the magistrate and the officer in charge and they made arrangements for me to visit the scheme . (Interjections) That is why I say I made arrangements with the officer in charge . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Did the people stop working through you? MR. K.M. GUZANA : Just ignore him .
MR. BUBU: As I was interested in finding out how the labourers connected with the work were feeling about the work they were doing, I requested the officer in charge to allow me to hold a conversation with about five of these labourers . The five volunteered to come over. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Can you give me their names ? MR . BUBU: It is not necessary. During the conversation we held a number ofthings came to light, and those are the things I would like to bring to the notice of this House for consideration. These are matters relating to the conditions under which they work and my purpose in bringing them here is to try to bring about the amelioration of those conditions . Firstly, I found that most of the labourers connected with the scheme live very far from their place of work. The distances range from two to ten, and even to about 16 miles. I found also that as a result of these great distances that they have to travel they have to get up very, very early to be able to reach their place of work. Some of them get up as early as 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Later, when I came to the Assembly here as I often do, starting from home at about 3 o'clock, I met some of them on the way. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Which locations do these people come from? MR. BUBU: Some of them come from the Great Place at Qaukeni ; some ofthem come from round about Mzintlava, and as those people who know the area will realise , those are very long distances from Lambasi. Another thing that was revealed in this conversation was that no form of accommodation was provided near the scheme and from what I heard from the officer in charge it was not at all the intention to have any residential quarters near the scheme. Now, consequent upon the fact that the distances are so great, some of these people are compelled to seek some form of board and lodging with people 345.
work · they have to travel these long distances and sometimes they are compelled to hire transport so that they may reach their work in time · in view of the fact that they have to exert themselves and rise so early to reach work in time , and after rising at 3 o'clock in the morning they work the whole day; ( Interjections ) in view, too, of the fact that the equipment is so inadequate that they are compelled to make use of tools provided by themselves . .
who might be one or two miles fromthe scheme. In some cases they have to pay for these. Another thing that was revealed in this conversation is that the labourers have to provide food for themselves. It was revealed further during this conversation that a very large number of these labourers make use of tools in doing their work which are provided by them. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Shame !
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You will soon claim more for exerting yourself here .
MR. BUBU: I was told that there are some forms of equipment that are provided by the Department but to a large extent they were making use of their own tools .
MR. BUBU : .and in view, finally , of the fact that they have to provide their own food , I consider that these special conditions under which they work should be taken into consideration by the Government.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What is the nature of those tools ? MR. BUBU : The hon. Minister wants to know what example I can give of the tools used. Those who work in those phormium tenax fields bring their own hoes . I consider that as very unsatisfactory, as the Department ought to provide the necessary equipment. As a result of the fact that this was happening in quite a large number of cases, the people incurred expense in doing work that was really not theirs .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What do you suggest ?
MR. BUBU: I suggest that their pay should be made uniform with the rest of the Government labourers. It must be remembered again that these men and women are laying foundations for the future economic development of this country. As I have said , the scheme that has been started there has very great possibilities for the future .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Your motion confines itself to tea and coffee , and now you mention phormium tenax.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Hear , hear.
MR. BUBU: Yes, phormium tenax is on the way to the tea and coffee fields . It is the Lambasi scheme.
MR. BUBU: If it is so , then, Mr. Chairman , as I am sure the Government will agree
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But what I want to know is whether in your small mind you include phormium tenax in this ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I want to know about these long distances. Do they travel every day from the Monday to Friday?
MR. BUBU: Yes , I include it. In view of what I saw I considered it was necessary for me, as a representative of the people I have referred to, that I should bring here a motion of this type in order to explore the possibility of the wages of these people being raised so that they may be able to meet the great need that exists around them .
MR . BUBU : Mr. Chairman, I am going to ignore the Minister of Agriculture . If it is so , then I consider that the good labour these people are offering to the Government should be equated with good wages . During the debate about labourers connected with roads and forests , the hon. the Minister of Agriculture remarked that he has some difficulty with his labourers at Lambasi. He said they were in the habit of leaving. I remember I said to him on that occasion it was because they realised they were not being adequately paid for the labours . Now I want once more to say that it is probably because of the conditions that I have explained here. I therefore , Mr. Chairman, without speaking too much at length, feel that I should move this motion as I have done .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What do you suggest? Do you know the wages ? MR. BUBU: It will be remembered that I said earlier in my address that the officer in charge gave me all information pertaining to the scheme. He also gave me information relating to the wages. He told me , for instance , that females are paid 35 cents a day and that males are paid 50 cents a day. Now, Mr. Chairman, I consider that ...
MR . N. JAFTA: I second , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Those are the minimum wages .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , particularly the hon. Mr. Bubu, ( Laughter) I crave your indulgence , Sir , to move an unopposed amendment to this motion (Laughter) to delete all the words after the word " Assembly" and to substitute therefor the following words : "the Government should be thanked for what has already been done to improve the wages and service conditions of its labourers . " MR. K.M. GUZANA: What would Shakespeare's
MR. BUBU: Yes . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And the maximum ? MR. BUBU: Yes, he told me about the maximum. It rises by 5 cents . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not by what it rises . What is the maximum?
play be without its Falstaff, and what would this House be without the hon. Minister ? (Laughter)
MR. BUBU: The trend of wages follows the same rises as for the other labourers that were discussed here · those on the roads and so on. But I want to say that in view of the special circumstances in which these people do their
MR . M.H. CANCA : I second the amendment. The debate was adjourned .
346.
House to the Republican Government. In terms of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, (I will refer members to section 23 of that Act) the chiefs who were to be entrenched as ex officio members in 1963 were 64 at the time and they were distributed as follows : - The paramount chiefs of the Transkei ; the 60 chiefs holding office in the nine regional authority areas in the Transkei . Now these were the chiefs , apart from the paramount chiefs :10 chiefs in respect of Dalindyebo region 8 Emboland 99 99 6 99 Emigrant Tembuland 3 99 Fingo region Gcaleka region "" "" Maluti Nyanda region 14 99 "" Qaukeni region Umzimkulu 4
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 8th June, 1967. THURSDAY, 8TH JUNE, 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT
483
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it has come to my notice that a question was put to the Chief Minister yesterday with regard to a report which came out in the Press relating to an amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act in the House of Assembly in Cape Town yesterday. According to the Press report it would appear that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asserted that there was a change in the constitution of the Assembly in so far as the distribution of chiefs is concerned . Now, I want to assure this House there has been no such change . The Government submitted recommendations of this House to the Republican Government in terms of a motion which was that is , motion No. 2 , which appears moved on page 352 of the report of the debates of this Assembly, 1966 , and the relative recommendation appears on page 353, which says that the total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time exceed 64, and if any paramount chieftainship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo , Gcaleka , Nyanda or Qaykeni regional authority area, or in any other district, the number of chiefs representing the district affected shall be reduced correspondingly. It goes on: " Where by reason of the provisions of sub- section (1 ) or in consequence of an increase in the number of chiefs in any district one or more chiefs in such district are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly, the person or persons so to be excluded shall be determined by secret ballot at a meeting of the chiefs in the district affected , to be convened by the Chairman of the Assembly; provided that if no majority can be reached at such meeting a meeting of the paramount chief, if any, and chiefs in the region shall be convened by the Chairman for the purpose of determining the person or persons to be excluded . " Now, this was the recommendation of this House - a unanimous decision of all the members of this Dalindyebo:
Emboland :
Fingo:
Gcaleka :
Maluti:
Nyanda:
Engcobo Tsolo Qumbu Mt. Frere St. Marks Xalanga Butterworth Nqamakwe Tsomo Willowvale Kentani Elliotdale Idutywa Matatiele Mount Fletcher Libode Ngqeleni Port St. Johns
I
E/Tembuland:
Umtata Mqanduli
60 Now I want to give the distribution in accordance with the districts at the time. There was one chief in Umtata district. I am excluding the paramount chiefs that is the distribution and I want to inform the House that it was the mistake of the committee (that is , the recess committee) which was constituted to draft this Constitution and that mistake was not discovered by the Legislative Assembly. There was no chief in Umtata district at the time , but we said Dalindyebo region had ten chiefs instead of nine, apparently including the paramount chief, and so we left it at that and we said one chief in Umtata district. In other words , although there are at present two chiefs in the Umtata district, in this Assembly in the 1968 election there will be one, because of the state of chiefs who were entrenched in the Constitution in 1963. Now, in 1963 there were the following chiefs • • .(Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, could you stop that delinquent on the other side ? He must understand that I am Prime Minister of the Transkei. This is a very important matter which I am trying to explain to the House. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member, this matter is not onthe order paper and I just by way of indulgence allowed the Leader of the Opposition to bring it up, but if you are going to behave in this way I will not tolerate it. I will just stick to the order paper. THE CHIEF MINISTER: In 1963 there were the following chiefs in each district of the Transkei :-
P/Chief S. Dalindyebo N.V. Mrazuli , B. Holomisa , D. Gwebindlala , J. Dumalisile , D. Tyelinzima , M. Mtirara S. Mgudlwa, M. Dalasile , N. Mtirara D. Mditshwa, E. Mabandla C. Ludidi , S. Moshesh, I. Matiwane , S. Majeke S. Makaula, N. Nomtsheketshe P/Chief K.D. Matanzima , Tambekile Matanzima, V. Ndarala , K. Mgudlwa N. Gecelo , J. Stokwe H. Zulu D. Ngcongolo, succeeded by H. Ngcongolo , I. Nkwenkwezi P/Chief Z. Sigcau, succeeded by X. Sigcau , M.X. Sigcau, succeeded by Nozizwe Sigcau
Z. Gwebindlala B. Sigidi , Q. Zenzile J. Moshesh, N. Sibi, H.Magadla, M. Lupindo , W. Ludidi K. Lebenya, F. Sibi , M. Lehana - P/Chief Poto, T. Ndamase F. Gwadiso, D. Ndamase 347.
Qaukeni
Lusikisiki Flagstaff Tabankulu Mt. Ayliff Bizana
Umzimkulu :
Umzimkulu
P/Chief B. Sigcau, M. Mqikela, L. Langa, N. Sigcau, S. Langa M. Diko , C. Siyoyo, succ. by Ngadlela Siyoyo , M. Tantsi G. Jojo M. Hlamandana , M. Sigcau, Xakatile Mlindazwe , G. Baleni , M. Langasiki , J. Ntola M. Msingapantsi , P. Jozana , T. Baka , N. Setusi ,
That was the state of the chiefs in 1963 who were entrenched as ex officio members by the Constitution. It was the distribution according to the districts which I have read now. There has been no change made by the Cabinet, but it so happened that some of these traditional chiefs who were there in 1963 were outvoted when it came to the election of chiefs who were subsequently recognized , just as in 1968, when there is another vote , nobody knows who will come to this House because there will still be this voting in the districts instead of the regions . For example, in Qaukeni region Chief Babini Langa, who was entrenched in terms of this Constitution, did not come to this House from Flagstaff, and also Chief Hlamandana in Bizana. Again, in Dalindyebo region one of the most important chiefs in the region , (I think I should say the most senior , and as you will see when you look at page 26 of the rules of the House he has a special stipend) Chief Nkosana Mtirara, did not come to this House , and there is also his brother who is acting now - he should be here, but he is not here , and certain sub-chiefs have taken his place. I want to explain that as far as the Cabinet is concerned we recommended that the state of the chiefs as they were in 1963 should be the guiding factor in deciding the membership of the 59 chiefs who should be members of this Assembly now. We had no other way. We had to be guided by the decision.
Agreed to . The Bill was read a first time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, the second reading will be on Monday, 12th June , 1967 , or as soon as possible thereafter . CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT AT LAMBASI TEA AND COFFEE SCHEME The debate was resumed . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , and the dishonourable mover, when the House rose I had just succeeded in putting an amendment to the motion by the dishonourable member. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I would like to call upon a point of order in regard to the responsible Minister concerned. We would the hon. Minister follows the rules of this Assembly in addressing the members of this Assembly. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister , you should address the members in the correct manner.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : All the members are honourable , Mr. Chairman , except one whom I do not name. Now, Mr. Chairman, you will notice that in the debate , when I put interjections to the hon. member, the first and most important of which was why he had gone there to disturb the peace and quiet of the labourers at this scheme , now I am pleased that I am able to give the House the reason for my apprehension. I contacted the magistrate whom he said he got permission from this morning, and the magistrate categorically denied that the hon. member had ever included Lambasi in his blanket permit that he gave him. From his file the magistrate got these places which I am going to read quickly. ( Interjections ) Lusikisiki , Sicwebu .
OPPOSITION: Not 60 ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , I am a paramount chief, for your information , so the number had to be reduced by one . That is the position and I think it is clear. Should you find that there is something which you do not understand I will be able to explain it , but I think I have made myself as clear as I possibly can. MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman · THE CHAIRMAN: No , hon. member , this question was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and it has wasted my time and the time of the House . I won't allow any questions.
MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Minister , would you want him to visit Lambasi ?
MR. BUSAKWE: The Leader of the Opposition is not here , Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , he is dealing with a specific case now. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : No , I cannot allow any more time on this . You can see the Chief Minister in his office .
MR. T.H. BUBU : He is wasting the time of the House , Mr. Chairman.
TRANSKEI LIQUOR BILL : FIRST READING
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , it is biting deep.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Liquor Bill. In view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , I now table a reccommendation by the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 that the Bill be considered by the Assembly. I move that the Bill be read a first time .
MR. BUBU: No , it is not. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now , the hon. member said he got permission from the official . I did not ask the official because the magistrate gave no name when I contacted him , but it was most unscrupulous of the foreman there to allow a politician to come and pollute our labourers there . It is only through the grace of God that no strike occurred in his footsteps , because in all the places that he visits that I know, and in these institutions where he was
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second , Mr. Chairman . 348.
teaching before he was dismissed for misconduct ( Laughter) there were always strikes in his wake. I do not want to quote them because you know them . MR. BUBU: You are telling lies . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , he says that, Mr. Chairman, because you know he is bold enough to say a Minister tells lies. I am not surprised because Satan himself said to Eve that God told lies that this fruit would kill them . ( Laughter) He is just following in the footsteps of his master , his Satanic Majesty. Now, Sir , I do not know why he is so concerned about Lambasi , because he was the first man when we planned Lambasi to advise the people not to accept reclamation there and in spite of his evil influence , his Satanic influence , the people accepted reclamation and we started the scheme there . I do not quite believe that he went there because when I went there on the 8th April , according to my diary, I know what the people told me about him . That was a Saturday, not a working day. They were dancing there and drinking according to their own way, and one man ( I think it was a headman) stood up and said that if Bubu came anywhere within a mile of Lambasi they would kill him because he is an evil man. Now , Sir , if people can say that in broad daylight , in front of the Paramount Chief who accompanied me , and of over a thousand people ! They were joining him in high praise of the projects that were started there , joining the irresponsible member, (that is the word he used towards me) so it means the people would give him a rough welcome, and I doubt if he would risk his life to that extent . When he praises , of course , it is just lip- service when he praises the scheme and the plants that are growing there . It reminds me of Satan's address to the sun in Paradise Lost , when he said : " I hate thy beams , oh Sun , because thou remindest me from what glory I fell . " He has fallen from that glory which he hoped to have of being Minister of Agriculture in the • Cabinet. Now coming to the motion MR. C.S. MDA: What was your reaction to the remark that if Bubu were there they would kill him ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I said "Hurray !" , because we kill the Devil. We don't flirt with the Devil. MR. MDA : In other words , you incited the people and encouraged them against the hon. member ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Didn't you say what was my reaction? An inciter has no reaction. He just incites the people . Now, I asked the hon. member if he had included the other projects there , the pine and the sugar, and evidently he had forgotten to include them because in his discussion he made reference to hoes which are used mainly in the cultivation of phormium tenax and sugar cane , and he said that was a condition which was not quite satisfactory because the people had to supply their own tools , but where on earth .? He has a small land there near his home of about a morgen and at some time or other he has got to get labour because he has weeds . I wonder how many hoes he keeps there for the people who come and do "togt" labour , or , for that matter , how many people he ever employs ? Because when I go there to his home I find that the only labourer he has there is his poor , sickly wife and no other employee in the place.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : You are very crude. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now , I am saying this because it is customary for people to bring their own hoes and the reason is quite simple. It is not a legal point because see the lawyer rising up , because all builders , all other workers, bring their own tools and what irregularity is committed there , if women bring their own hoes , putting them on their shoulders to show what sort of work they require ? And they don't like our hoes because they are sometimes too heavy and they like to bend their hoes to a certain angle which we would not allow them to do, or they are light to suit the weight of the worker. So , Mr. Chairman , I dismiss that as being foolish. Again, Sir , he mentioned something about distances these people have got to travel to and from work, and quotes a distance of 16 miles or so. Well , I have never seen that, but it might happen. The idea of a settlement like that is to provide work for the immediate neighbourhood, and they should be thankful if at all we are able to take people from far afield , and not discriminate, and I suppose they do those journeys twice a week on Mondays and Friday evenings , perhaps. That is something beyond our control. But sometimes we have lorries after work travelling to the village and back in the morning, and we pick up those we find on the road. Again, I would also like to repeat what the hon . the Chief Minister said in warning, ( I do not know whether it was in our caucus or in the House) that these members of Parliament are too forward where they usurp positions which are reserved for chiefs and headmen. Now, he says he went to investigate the position of wages which as far as I am concerned, as Minister , the people are quite satisfied with, because I have been there several times and I have never found any complaints in this regard. Now he singles out Lambasi for tea and coffee , but I must remind the irresponsible member that he would be creating a very unhealthy climate in discriminating between the different classes of labourers . All labourers are labourers , no matter what department they belong to, or what they do . What counts is their experience and their steadiness and constantness in work, then they receive steady promotion, and it is wrong to say that we ever pay anyone the minimum wage , as I explained in connection with the hon. lady's motion the other day , because I told you if you were listening, or perhaps you were shooting bears that day , that we never pay the minimum. We always reckon five , six or seven notches and give those notches gratis to the labourers in recognition of their work inthe Republic or elsewhere . MR. GUZANA : Would you consider a rise of 5 cents a year adequate ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The rise of 5 cents a year is quite adequate for the class of work that the man does , because you must consider , Mr. Leader , that these projects should be made to be economic and you must lead your flock of sheep to the right direction. I am not starting an argument with you , but we have got to consider the economic side as well as other factors affecting the Treasury, because we get a certain amount of money from the Treasury to run these schemes .
MR. GUZANA : I would accept that if you said 5 cents is not adequate but we haven't the money . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , this is not the Mqanduli court and I will never go
349.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Perhaps if you go there again you will see it.
there. Now, for a rise of 10 cents at Lambasi do you know what it would cost that scheme ? At Lambasi alone it would be R100 per month, and 261 days per annum would be R26,000 just on that one project. That is roughly - you needn't calculate mathematically. MR. figure ?
GUZANA:
MR . BUBU:You are telling lies . There is no shelter there . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No shelter at Qamata?
Isn't that an exaggerated
MR . BUBU: At Lambasi . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Not at all. It is conservative . We have a thousand workers there . An increment of 10 cents would be R100 and it would be R26,000 per annum for that one scheme .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But you said you were including the whole scheme. MR. BUBU: I said that was only in connection with phormium tenax.
MR. GUZANA: Won't you concede that a worker at a tea plantation should be kept there so that he has experience and learns to tend a tea plant so that when picking time comes , which is in about six months , he knows which leaf to pick and therefore to retain him there you should give him a higher wage?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Of course you only went there because you thought the people would vote for you. You wanted the people to vote for your candidate . (Interjections) He is a boss-boy who had been at one of the mines and he was responsible for giving them more meat. (Interjections) Your candidate claimed to come into the House because he was a boss-boy but the people have seen what you are. You promised them they would never have rehabilitation in a location which today is being planned , (which is bad news for you , ) even to the extent of the people right down at the bottom whom you encouraged to grow dagga. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Now you are anticipating me. We have got plans for their eventually taking over all these tea gardens , so we actually employ them and pay them to rear their own tea gardens for a period of about three to five years . MR. GUZANA: That is not true . You don't pay them to grow their own gardens .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Sit down.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , I am saying this because the hon. member advised the people not to accept rehabilitation because we would build access roads to these inaccessible spots and then they would not be able to live on dagga, which they do . His location is noted for dagga. (Interjection) Now coming to you, Sir , you say how far can a labourer advance .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , when we give them over, and after five years , this liberal Government (which does not belong to the Liberal Party, which is your Party) – this liberal Government will hand them over to its children and never charge them a penny to learn. Now, these people coming from 16 miles away (I think it is more than that, I think it is 26 miles to Sihlito) would he walk all that way for a wage which does not suit him? You must be consistent in your thoughts .
MR. GUZANA: I did not say so. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am saying so. There is no ceiling on a labourer because a labourer is regarded as a labourer, but if he shows exceptional ability and certain initiative in his work , and a sense of respon-
MR. GUZANA : Why do people ask for rises in wages? They travel to work, they work there and they still ask for rises in wages . That is normal.
sibility, then we can promote him to semiskilled or even to skilled labour. It is not necessary for him to go to a training school because some of the products of the training school are just as bad as these are because some of our training schools are bad. (Interjections) Now, I will give you an example of one labourer who rose to the highest position , just because of initiative and responsibility. It was at Lambasi , his pet .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, Sir, this monkey is trying his tricks with me. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Which monkey ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is there a monkey in the House ? I said a certain monkey ... MR. C.S. MDA : Make him sit down , Mr. Chairman, he is wasting the time of the House .
MR . GUZANA : Aversion? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, he spoke about food , which is a very important item in any industry, but what "togt" labour ever supplies food and yet he wants it to be done at Lambasi because he wants to kill it. We have no objection to people bringing in their own food and we can even spare them a labourer to cook it for them as we do in Roads and Works , and what administrative area will charge for accommodation of labourers who come from outside that ward ? The mover said these people are charged for accommodation. I explained in my other motion that when necessary we do find accommodation for them, but they always leave that empty and like to stay with their friends for some reason or other .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Perhaps . Now this labourer had no grade at all. He only assisted a forest guard to go round and check on the forest, and one day the guard was ill and so he had to go by himself. I hope the hon. Leader is listening. He came across poachers and there were two of them against one , and this man tackled them and arrested one. They shot at him in the stomach (I wish they had shot Bubu) . OPPOSITION MEMBERS : member.
The honourable
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The hon. member. Now, this man , if you have a radio set you will know that Ipresented that man with R20 . This man has since returned to work. He was an
MR. BUBU: Where is that shelter?
350.
ordinary labourer, and when I went there , do you know what I did ? I put him on top as a forest guard.
motion because it is uncalled for and unnecessary and shows lack of respect for authority, when, if these people had sent him at all , they would have sent him to my Department. Now, Sir, do you think the people are so foolish as to instruct him to say that he should say when placing their requests before me that I am an irresponsible Minister? Is that the way to place requests before a Government, leaving out the fact that he has short- circuited the authorities? He is working on the same principle as a dying donkey. He wants to kick me far , if he can.
MR. GUZANA: At the top of what? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : At the top of the establishment, although he had no education. MR. GUZANA : Because he caught a poacher ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , and the poacher was convicted. Now, in saying all this I want the House to appreciate the work that we do and not sow discontentment amongst our labourers , because a discontented labourer is worse than the Devil himself. So I hope , Mr. Chairman, that when the members approach these questions they will do so through the correct channels .
MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I find myself in a difficulty as to what to say after the hon . the Minister of Agriculture . I expected him, as an officer of the Government, to throw light upon the accusations that were cast upon the Department over which he is in charge . He has unfortunately done nothing of the kind . What he has succeeded in doing is to lower very much the standard of debate in this Assembly. I think that as Minister in charge of a Government Department he has brought disgrace to this House. How can the ordinary members be expected to uphold the dignity of the debates if the hon. Minister in charge of a Department is going to behave as the hon. Minister has done ? His address was a crude , unpolished address of the first degree , and even if he were giving this address to the ordinary people at Qaukeni he would not give them an idea of the nature of the debates in this Assembly. There are seconded officials in the House who ought to help to uplift the standard of debate , and if the newspaper reporters were to give a report of this debate it would present a very poor picture of this Assembly. "It was most unscrupulous on the part of the magistrate to allow a politician to go and pollute our labourers at Lambasi. " That is the hon. Minister speaking in such terms about an officer ofthe Government ! He hopes that Lambasi is going to be a reservoir of the electorate which will give their votes to him. If he has no desire that the elected members of this Assembly should have contact with the people at Lambasi it is because he does not wish them to have any idea of the work and the conditions at Lambasi . He maintains he is here as a responsible member of the Government which takes into consideration only what is for the good of the people. A responsible Government gives permission to the elected member representing the people to go even into the prisons to ascertain the views and opinions of the persons he represents . Are the workers at Lambasi in prison so that the people who represent them in this Assembly should be denied the privilege to meet them, consult them and ascertain their views about the work they are doing? He made fun of the statement made by the hon. member to the effect that the people should be supplied with tools , and should not have to provide tools themselves . He went on to say they did not want their hoes at Lambasi to be bent at
MR. GUZANA: What are those? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They should know. It is not for me to dictate regulations to you, so that you can argue with me. But the trouble is that these disaffected M.P.s. MR. BUBU: What are the correct channels ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Through the local authority, the headman , chief, then the paramount chief, the regional authority and then to the office of the Minister. But you don't recognize your paramount chief because before the paramount chief came here we asked all the Pondos on a certain date , including him, if he is still a Pondo and not a Tembu, to go to the Great Place at Qaukeni and asked the paramount chief to make certain representations for the Pondos , and the hon. irresponsible member was conspicuous by his absence , but he had the impertinence to bring a motion like this about the paramount chiefs of the country. To whomdo these people belong? Do they belong to Bubu, or to the paramount chief? MR. GUZANA: They belong to themselves . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I know it is just a desperate effort, for a wise man once said that a dying donkey kicks harder than a living one. ( Laughter) So I think we should be very grateful to these members who defected from Qaukeni .
MR . GUZANA: Are you a dying donkey now? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , I refer to your clients . MR. GUZANA : Which clients ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Those members who come from Qaukeni to support you. MR. GUZANA: They are not my clients. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What are they? So this is their penultimate session because this House will never be dishonoured by their dishonourable faces. Perhaps they will go to the Middle East where their master , Nasser, is working. (Laughter) I mean where Communists conglomerate with the mess they have made in the Middle East. Well , Mr. Chairman, I am minus an interpreter so I beg to conclude with a request that this House reject the original
a certainangle as the labourers like to do . I want to know whether they have instruments to work with, or whether they have no instruments at Lambasi . Indeed, we would like the hon . Minister to assure this House as to whether there is equipment to assist the labourers or whether there is no equipment. He ridicules the statement of the hon. member because he says the hon. member did not approve of that scheme at Lambasi. As a matter of fact, it was because we had a memorandum from the residents at Lambasi when they were being moved from Lambasi to a marshy area, and what we objected to was that the people were made to reside in an unhealthy area . Even if a gold mine were discovered in an area like Ncambedlana , we would oppose it
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if the people were settled in an unhealthy area because gold was discovered at Ncambedlana . It does not mean we would be opposed to the mining of gold. The labourers at Lambasi are in an undertaking which is very important, because it is one which the Government hopes will raise the economic level of the people and it will also help the Transkei to be independent economically, and that means that the Government should take care of the health and the comfort of the labourers at Lambasi , for Lambasi is a show-room for the whole of the Transkei . I would like to stress the fact that the hon. Minister must cease to try and bring disunity between the elected member and his paramount chief. Further he must not continue to bring misunderstanding between the representatives and the electorate . He himself is a representative of the people. Whoever brings the complaints of the electorate to him, be it the hon. Mr. Bubu, or Mr. Nota, he should listen and attend to those representations as a member of the Government. And should he find it fit he ought to take such representations to the paramount chiefs. Mr. Chairman, it is a known fact that a wage of 50 cents a day is inadequate and as Lambasi is a Government experimental farm would the Government make this experiment such that it would encourage the people who work, and those who are looking on. One other factor that helps in any undertaking is that the employees should remain in that work until they have a thorough understanding of it, and that will result only if the wage is adequate and if their conditions of work are satisfactory. We expect the hon. Minister to take every step to encourage the labourers at Lambasi to stay a long time at their work until they could give off their best. He makes fun of the idea that no undertaking has ever supplied free food to temporary labourers. The Railway Department has a compound of temporary employees and they are supplied with food and subsistence by the Railway Department. I am merely mentioning this because it has come to my mind, but I could think of several others . Lambasi is a Government compound and the Government must therefore provide for the labourers there . Even if the labourers are required to pay 5 cents a day, if they were given an adequate wage for their labour they would be satisfied with their condition if they knew the food they were receiving was nutritious. The hon . Minister does not even take these things into account and yet he is expecting to be returned to the House next year, and if these things were conducted as we suggest then the Transkei would be a successful experiment as it is expected it will be in the end . I support the motion to the effect that the Government should take into consideration the conditions of the labourers at Lambasi and if necessary improve their wages , not extravagantly but according to the needs of the situation . P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will try to be short in my speech. I wish to support the amendment of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , because all he said is true . I do not know why this motion has been introduced because the mover of this motion states clearly that he went to Lambasi and he went round until he was satisfied . He was given five ladies to converse with after he had gone round and he states that he did have a conversation with them. Why does he go and converse and not take the complaints of the people? It was merely a conversation . It could be true or it could be lies, and now he brings a matter to this House which he discussed with five women whereas he knows he is a member of Parliament and ought to
bring something tangible to this House. I do not believe that he really went there because as I was going round during the by-election they asked : Where , when you go around , Chief of the Pondos , are the elected members ? They never come and tell us what is happening.
MR. MDA: No such thing. P/CHIEF SIGCAU: This motion is just a made-up thing because he is educated and he knows perfectly well that next year there will be a general election and he is preparing for that. We see that, and even the electorate know that is the reason. In fact, I was at Lambasi recently. Surely they would have told me , but they told me they are quite happy and satisfied. The people say when they are hungry they go to a White man and ask : Will you give me a pocket of mealies and I will pay at the end of the month? - (Interjections) I asked the people about their wages and they never made any complaint. All they asked was where the elected members were. ( Interjections ) They said they were quite satisfied with everything. I do not know what is being said about this motion because it is out of order. You are just worrying the hon. Minister andthe electorate will have nothing to do with you because you neglected them for a period of at least three years. I move that there should be no voting on this motion. It should just be agreed to, as the Minister said. I will ask the mover to withdraw so that he will not be disappointed . He has never been at Lambasi - it is just a made-up thing. I know he is aiming at something. ( Interjections) I have proved that you have made up this thing. You don't work for the people who elected you. You just loaf. What I amtelling you is what the people say. You just go and talk to five friends and you say you held a meeting. I talked to a lot of people . MR. K.M. GUZANA: If I ask for a permit to go to Lambasi , will I get it? P/CHIEF SIGCAU: That is natural . I did not say you could not go there ; I said you could go. What I object to is a paramount chief going to another paramount chief's area without permission. I am just holding my temper. The hon. Mr. Guzana may go with other men because I trust him. I know he is very fond of tea and the day it is ready I will send him 50 lbs. of tea. (Laughter)
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : ( Inaudible interjection) P/CHIEF SIGCAU : The Pondos will not listen to you - they will only listen to me. They do not even have confidence now in the Opposition. If you go there you are wasting your time . (Interjections) They know all your stunts . We shall vote for the hon. Minister's amendment. All I can say is that if Lambasi people have a complaint they will definitely approach me . Everybody wants his salary raised . I do not think the Lambasi people said that, but if they did they would come to me . The Lambasi people spoke to me about the distance they walk and I just went to the Minister about it. You wait until Parliament meets and bring it up here . That is not in order . As a member of Parliament, if you ever hear of any complaints it is your duty to go to the head of the department. I am trying to rub this in, that to talk here does not help . MR. GUZANA: What have you done to help the people ? P/CHIEF SIGCAU : I have done a thousand 352.
things, and you can see that they listen to what I say. Even the Minister of Education and the Minister of Agriculture listen to me. (Interjections and laughter)
hon. Minister tended to defend the policy of making use of tools brought by the people to work on a scheme which is called a Government scheme. That shows that he is pleased with exploiting the poor, but he is not prepared to pay them for the work they do for him. The hon. Minister also said that very few people came from as far as 16 miles away from the scheme . That has shown me that he is not in close touch with the work being done there, because there is a large number of people who come from very far , otherwise this motion would not have been brought up here. As I said, Mr. Chairman, that tea plantation scheme is a very important one in the economy of the Transkei and the working conditions of the people connected with the scheme should be made as attractive as possible . That will enable those people to remain attached tothe scheme for as long as possible . That , ultimately, will mean that the work done there will be successful as an experiment. When I was there the officer in charge explained to me that when the scheme was in full production it would take six months to take the tea leaves , and that each labourer would be put to a tree every day, because as each leaf of the tree becomes ripe it must be picked just at the time when it is ripe and that therefore underlines the importance of making the conditions of the people who work at the plantation as favourable as possible . For that to be done it should be made possible for these people to live as near to the scheme as possible , which means that the Government must consider the possibility of putting up some residential quarters. I am sorry that in this regard the hon. Minister told an untruth when he said there was some shelter. The very use of the word " shelter" betrayed the untruth because I take it that human beings should not merely be sheltered . They should be housed properly. (Interjections ) I must remind the hon. Minister that the Government has made boastful mention of what is being done at Lambasi and I think when they are boastful they are not wrong, because it is a good scheme and therefore the motion that I am moving here does not undermine that good work. It rather seeks that that work should be successful. I still feel that this motion should be supported by the members of this House, that the wages paid to the labourers in that scheme should be raised . If the Government cannot afford to do so at the moment then the Government should concede that the motion as such is right, but that they are not ready to act on the terms of the motion. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: Why were you trembling then? P/CHIEF SIGCAU: Was I in a hurry, or was I afraid? When you saw me that day Chief Majeke was there and he saw me. I was not shivering because I was afraid. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the mover of the motion to reply. MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I really do not know what I should say by way of reply, because hardly has anything been said by the two speakers who supported the amendment, but I think it is necessary that I should comment upon what the hon. Minister said about the magistrate, not in an attempt to advance my arguments for the motion, but by way of clearing the air around the person of the magistrate. I noted during the course of the hon. Minister's speech that he rang up the magistrate to find out about the meeting that he said I had held at Lambasi. The hon. Minister stated that the magistrate replied that he had not issued any permit to me to hold a meeting at Lambasi. I wish to say that I agree with the magistrate, because no permit was asked of him in that connection. What happened was that I approached the magistrate and told him that I was interested in paying a visit to the scheme and that I wanted to find out from him as to how to go about it. He suggested that I should go and consult the officer in charge and make arrangements with Now him . Now that was what happened.
for the Minister to have referred to the magistrate as unscrupulous in allowing politicians to go and see people at work showed the height of indiscretion on his part. (Interjections) Now with regard to the introductory remarks to the speech that he made about me and about my house , all I can say is the attitude I am going to take is that of a man who sees a pig wallowing in the mud. What a sober man does is to keep as far away from the mud as possible, and so I shall allow the hon. Mr. Madikizela , Minister of Agriculture , to wallow in his own mud , and I must say that I regret to have to refer to him by the rules of this House as the honourable member. Regarding the points I raised in the course of my address to this House , I do not think there is anything the hon. Minister , as well as the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland , have said that is worthy of my reply, but I should say this 8 that it does appear to me that although they claim to have had contact with the people in the area concerned , they did not enjoy their close confidence because they did not convey to them what their wishes were , as against the fact that when I met the few that I asked for they spoke to me as heartily and as freely as ordinary members of the electorate will do when they speak to a direct representative , and the points that I raised here in favour of the wages of those people being raised came from the people. The complaint about the fact that they were making use of their own tools to work on the plantations was also a complaint that came from them. It is unfortunate that the
THE SECRETARY: The question is a motion by the hon. member for Qaukeni , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I shall put the question that the words proposed to be omitted should stand part of the motion. The words were deleted by 31 votes to 56. The words proposed to be substituted were agreed to by 57 votes to 32. The motion as amended : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should be thanked for what has already been done to improve the wages and service conditions of its labourers" was carried by 58 votes to 32. EXEMPTION OF HIGHER PRIMARY SCHOOL PRINCIPALS FROM FULL TIME TEACHING
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before speaking to this motion, will
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you allow me to change one word there , which is used figuratively for the word which should stand in its place ? The word "Government" should be deleted and substituted by the words "Department of Education" , so the motion now reads :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Department of Education should consider the advisability of grading schools in such a way that in the Higher Primary schools a principal should be exempted from full time teaching so that he should be able to carry out the work of a principal. " Mr. Chairman , there are times when the hon. the ChiefMinister in his opinion thinks he advises people to consult various departments on some matters which they think they should , or should not, raise in motions in this Assembly. At the time of his remarks I wanted to find out whether is was necessary to go there , or whether one could write to a department seeking information such as might be anticipated. I can assure the hon. the Chief Minister that we sometimes do write to seek information from some of the departments, and in particular that of the hon. the Chief Minister , and I am happy to say that they always reply, and Roads and Works also did reply and the Department of the Interior does reply. I have not had anything to do with forests and monkeys , but I regret to say that sometimes you write to the Department of Education and you do not get a reply. I particularly want to warn that Department and others to whom correspondence of importance is directed that they either will function in accordance with the wishes of the people of the Transkei or they must go. (Laughter) I avoided using that language because we used to during those days , and probably it would not suit a person of my standing here when talking of a department that is failing to reply to correspondence . I hope they will take note of that in case that Department forgets that it is serving the people . I was therefore trying to show the hon. the Chief Minister that we do avail ourselves of these opportunities and we expect reciprocity in these matters . However , the hon. the Minister of Education must not think that I did write about this motion in particular. No, I am just making reference to consulting departments in an official way. Sometimes it is not necessary for representative members of Parliament to go to people , particularly in matters in which they may not be able to know what to say, that people must ask. After all , when we asked for the people's vote we told them what we thought we would do for them , then they would know. People do not send a person to represent them in a legislative assembly when a person like that does not know why he wants to go to that assembly. If some things we bring up have already been provided by the departments concerned, well and good, and we shall be informed accordingly .
dingly, but what we cannot do is to go sniffing behind people's work saying : Have you done this ; have you done that? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Will you give me a chance to explain before you go further ? MR. RAJUILI: I will gladly give you that chance if you would request me in a polite manner as a Minister of Education should, otherwise I just ignore you. I just ignore you. (Laughter) Now, when we bring this motion we are not saying that attempts are not being made to do this thing. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Give him a chance to explain. MR. RAJUILI: You cannot explain anything. We are not dealing with monkeys in the forest. CHIEF M. SIGCAU : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I would like to know from the mover of the motion whether he realises that if the principals do no teaching there will be fewer teachers ? MR. RAJUILI : I thought he was looking for a point of order and he is looking for information. THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think that the House will realise that the time is far spent and we are only left with about two weeks before we finish our business. Some ofthese motions can just be explained by the various Ministers of the Departments and if the explanation is satisfactory I think the hon. member would be satisfied and will not proceed with a long debate . Tomorrow we will be dealing with the committee stage of a bill and we have another bill, whereas if an explanation is required from the Minister • THE CHAIRMAN: What happens if the Minister explains and it takes about half an hour, and the mover is not satisfied and then it takes a half-hour again? THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is highly improbable that an explanation will take so long. It is usually five to ten minutes . MR. RAJUILI : I think I will avail myself of this chance, but I think the right thing is , seeing these motions were in a month or so ago, that the hon. Minister should have called the mover and explained things to him. However, I will give the Minister a chance . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I feel I cannot , before explaining, leave the remarks made by the hon. member across the floor with regard to my Department unchallenged . I can assure the hon. members that all correspondence directed to my Department is, as far as possible , attended to , but it sometimes happens that there is correspondence from some over-enthusiastic political charlatans ...
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Come to the motion, please . MR. RAJUILI: A little more dignity , please . I would not like to see you getting down into the debris of your predecessor.
MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman. If the hon. Minister would reply or explain and then bring in these venomous remarks afterwards I would definitely understand , but if he starts with them it looks as though I do not require any explanation from him. I have already allowed him to explain in order to economise on the time of the House , but if he is only prepared to utter venomous remarks then I will go on and
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I told my Department not to reply to you. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are talking balderdash.
MR. RAJUILI : When we bring these things here I will repeat that if provision has been made for these things we shall be told accor-
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put on the gloves. I do not like his remarks and if he is going on with his remarks then I think I should move my motion. I do not think I require any more information , Mr. Chairman, so he should sit down and let me go on. Let me get the gloves ready. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Carry on. MR. RAJUILI: As I was saying, (I will quote to him) I wrote to his Secretary about high and training school in the Maluti region, only five or six lines, asking what has happened to the promise made. That is all it was. I wrote a second letter after about three months , if you want to know, making a humble reminder, and even to that there was not even a decency of acknowledging correspondence. Even where an explanation is to be made a Secretary of any department, even a private secretary, answers a letter of a few lines . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But what about an indecent letter ? MR. RAJUILI: If the letter was indecent, will the Minister allow me to publish that letter? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is precisely why you were not replied to. MR. RAJUILI : Is he accepting the challenge that I release to the public Press that letter? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do so. MR. RAJUILI: And if he feels I should, I will release it. To come to the subject of my motion it did not mean to say that we are not aware that attempts have not been made to meet some of the things in this motion , but we are aware that in some higher primary schools which vary in numbers , you have some primary schools beginning with the sub- standards up to Std. 6 and others beginning with Std. 3, but generally in some of our schools you will find that a principal of the school has to manage the staff, the children and the general tone and discipline of the school , and still have full time work as any other member of the staff. A few headings I would like to put forward are - part of the organisational work, and order and discipline in general ; attention to parents, some of whom just come at any time and even some imposing chiefs do come to school and require attention from the principal ; departmental officers who come at irregular hours without schedules or without warning the teacher that they will be present. There is the official correspondence to be attended to, some of which may be quite urgent and analytic in expectation; you have teachers' schemes of work in daily preparation which the principal must see through; he has to look through the exercise books of different classes on different subjects ; to see to the co-ordination of the work as contained in the daily schemes of work prepared by the teachers . There are occasions when the principal has to be present when the teacher gives an observation lesson. (Interjections ) Perhaps the subject matter is a little too high for you. If I were you I would shut up after making such a failure of your Department. The principal has to see to the individual performance of each individual child in his school. (Interjections ) I am showing you why it is necessary that the principal should not have full time teaching. We are aware that your Department of Education has time-tables set up for every teacher in the schools and we are aware that the amount of work varies from
school to school, but what the motion seeks is that some time off, even if it may be out of the number of hours in the week, be given so that the principal can be given time to attend to the non subject-teaching work. I will not go on with the monthly tests that have to be carried out and the questions that are to be set and the principal has to moderate these and make sure that the tone of the work and standard of attainment is in keeping with expectations . I will also make mention here of extra-mural activities , some of which have to be supervised by the principal himself, supervising the teachers . You do not have prefects in the primary schools. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What are you discussing now? MR. RAJUILI: He wants to know what I am discussing. I am discussing the principal and people should not talk of things they know nothing about. I am talking of primary schools . Sometimes you have a panel of inspectors and it has become of late the fashion in departmental work to have a crowd of inspectors visiting one school , and we know when they come they observe the principal himself, make a demonstration of a lesson and thereafter he may never know what they will want from which teacher or which class. You shall be aware that we are not trying to seek to make lazy principals who will not work. We are quite aware that there are those who may try to sit in the offices and smoke their pipes. I am having in mind a conscientious principal who knows he is dealing with the money of the nation and the food of the children, who should be able , when a panel of inspectors gets to his school, to find whatever they may want and know whatever is required . He cannot but put his fingers on whatever is wanted. So if the inspector should discover something in one ofthe classes , he is very well versed in that class and its standing in everything , but it is impossible if he has to teach full time like the other teachers, to find time to do the work of the principal . I leave some of the points . Probably the hon. the Minister of Education would like to reply and so on, and I will see if he has provided for some of the points which I shall leave out . MR. M.J. DUMALISILE: I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall go on from where I was unceremoniously disturbed . I still submit that correspondence is attended to, except where you find half-baked politicians taking it upon themselves to go as far as to disregard even letters which may be marked " Confidential " and publish them in the newspapers .
THE CHAIRMAN: I take it you are opposing, hon. Minister, and not moving an amendment? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , Mr. Chairman, if you want me to make an amendment I will do so before I speak. THE CHAIRMAN : Yes , thank you. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I shall move this amendment : That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and substituted by the following : "having due regard to the availability of suitably qualified staff, the Department is making adequate provision for enabling principals to supervise the teaching staff under their control , and to carry out the administrative duties required of a principal . "
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MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think according to our rules of procedure the hon. Minister should have known that there is no difference in the substance of this proposed amendment to the motion. It is no amendment.
in the lower primary schools , where the number of teachers in the school warrants the relieving of the principal of teaching duties . I hope my hon. friend will realise that the Department is just on what he seeks in his motion.
MR. RAJUILI: I did say we are aware that the Department is doing something .
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I know drafting of processes from the legal point more than the hon. "Predikant" does.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second the amendment. MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, if you will allow me some remarks on what the hon. Minister has said. This explanation, some of which was so valuable , could have been made and we are aware that in his policy speech the Minister did say some of this , but of course he could not go into details . He and I understand each other very well , but he started brushing me the other way round . ( Laughter) Since the amendment seeks to be so much the same, I think we can with pleasure withdraw the motion.
MR. RAJUILI : I agree, but you know legal and not professional work. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The position is that in the motion the Department is called upon to consider the advisability of grading schools . It does not lay any conditions and the Department cannot afford to accept a motion which it cannot carry out in its entirety. I will go on , Mr. Chairman , to remind the hon. members that in 1964 a select committee was appointed by this House to go into the recommendations of the Cingo Commission and the hon. mover of the motion was a member of that committee . One of the recommendations of that committee was the question of relieving principals of ordinary teaching duties . The select committee accepted that recommendation which was later accepted by this House. If the hon. member across the floor had carefully scrutinized a question by the hon . member for Qaukeni to which replies were given on the 30th May, 1967, he should have realised that what he seeks in his motion is being carried out, in effect. ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ? Agreed to. MR . M.J. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if you forgot to ask me if I was prepared to withdraw? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The motion is the property of the House and the House has agreed. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday , 9th June , 1967.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Hon. members , one of the questions by the hon. member for Qaukeni was as follows : "As I am aware that posts of certain vice -principals were advertised last year and that further eligible persons did submit applications for the posts, will the hon. Minister, in view of the urgency of the situation in respect of certain schools , explain the circumstances that have led to the silence that has since ensued on the part of the Department on these very vital aspects of our educational system. " The reply was as follows : " Viceprincipal posts were created at 18 post-primary schools and 8 primary schools last year. Other successful applicants are in the process of being informed. " Now, it is an indisputable fact that before principals can be relieved of some of their teaching duties , vice - principals must of necessity be first appointed and the appointment of vice-principals in certain of our schools is the first step towards the bringing into realisation of the recommendation which was passed in this House . It should however be realised that through no fault of this Government our schools have for a long time been seriously understaffed, so that until and unless in some of our schools we bring the quota per teacher appreciably lower than it is , it will be very difficult to relieve the principal of the teaching responsibility. It should also be remembered that in my policy speech I intimated that the Department is making provision for the employment of 500 teachers to new posts each and every year, the purpose of which, as I have said, is to relieve the present position. I might even go as far as to remind my hon. friend that it is the policy of the Department not to provide the system suggested in the higher primary schools only , but also
FRIDAY, 9TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House resolve itself into the committee to consider the Traffic Bill. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House , in connection with Clause 1 , Definitions , there is an amendment by the hon. member , Revd. B. S. Rajuili , in sub- section xxvii (b) , but he is not here . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will ask to be allowed to call him as he is busy with a visiting diplomat outside . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, may I apologise for being late and for the first time you hear me making this type of apology. You are aware that there are some members of the Diplomatic Corps who are visiting the Transkei and they were to meet our leader who, unfortunately, is not available , so
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the hon. Paramount Chief Poto and I had to go and meet them on behalf of the leader. It is for that reason that I am late. Now Sir, I have an amendment here to the effect • · ..
Interior says : Does it say a White magistrate ? Is there any one Black magistrate in the Transkei , Sir ? There being none, there is only one magistrate and that is the White magistrate.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is a ridiculous amendment which should not come from a graduate of the University of South Africa.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : There will be five next year. MR . RAJUILI: It would have been more reasonable if this Bill had been shelved until
MR . RAJUILI: · • .that paragraph xxvii (b) be amended by the substitution of the word "tribal authorities" for "magistrate" . I do not know whether it will economize your time for me to debate all these at the same time, because they are all for substitution of words and the purpose of substitution will be the same in all sections.
we have the five Black magistrates next year. There would be more understanding, but it is going through now and we are not stopping it. We are merely saying that the Government should be true to its policy and stop telling untruths to the electorate that they are for separate development under tribal authorities . Sir, I will not take more of your time because I can see I still have my gloves on and I can see the hon. the Chief Minister surrendering, and I am going to watch him to see if he is going to be against his policy today to push aside the chiefs and push in the magistrates . I move accordingly.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But this is in connection with clause 1 and the others refer to Chapter 1. MR. RAJUILI: Thank you, Sir, I will do them one at a time. We wonder today why legislation is being brought here which is contrary to the policy of the Government.
MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Which policy? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I thought the hon. member for Maluti who has just moved the amendment was the only one across the floor on the Opposition who was confused with regard to the policy for which we stand. I am surprised that he has a seconder. Now, I will watch the Opposition to see if they will vote for his amendment and assess their comprehension in so far as the policy of separate development is concerned. Probably the hon. member , who is a graduate of one of the highest Universities ofthe land, is confused as he lacks constitutional knowledge of the policy which this side of the House follows.
MR. RAJUILI: If there is ever a time when, for the last four years I could assist the Government and support them in their policy, this is the time. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: We do not need your assistance . MR. RAJUILI: We have been told several times that we must be a constructive Opposition to help the Government where it gets out of its own policy in running the country in accordance with the policy that they have put forward , unless this is a complete surrender by the Government of their policy. They are throwing away their policy of separate development that is based constitutionally on tribalism . They are the most backward of any people anywhere , controlled by chiefs who have no elementary understanding of things because , Sir , one could not see when our beloved chiefs today can be told they are not able to do the work when in other spheres of life they have been given that, and I think they are handling education very successfully.
MR. RAJUILI : You are right, because there is no constitution for your policy. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I regret that he did not take a single law subject to assist him to understand the intricacies of constitutional law. The Constitution of the Transkei which we follow is clear and unambiguous . We have rules for the civil service which the hon. member now and again refers to. I am surprised that he does not know that in our civil service there is provision for magistrates and that when we refer to magistrates in so far as our civil service regulations are concerned we do not have White magistrates in the Transkei. I will refer him to the rules of our civil service and challenge him , if he reads them with any intelligence at all. Why do we provide for Magistrates in our rules for civil servants if we are not going to have magistrates ? He seems to under-estimate the intelligence of the trival leaders ofthe country and he thinks he can bluff this House and the chiefs to
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We agree. MR . RAJUILI : We do not want the Government now to somersault and refuse the chiefs their rightful place of taking over from the magistrate and pushing aside the white man, and saying they are not competent today. This is traffic regulations , not in the Republic of South Africa but in the Transkei where we are supposed to take charge of affairs . (Interjections)
think they can perform duties which are normally performed by magistrates. In our Constitution we have synchronized the tribal system withthe Western constitutional mode of democracy , but I did not know the Opposition was so racialistis in their attitude that the presence of the loaned magistrates is a nightmare as far as they are concerned. Fortunately, the Government is clear in their policy of the gradual and systematic withdrawal of the loaned officials. The provision for magistrates in so far asthese traffic regulations is concerned refers to the Transkeian civil servants. Please understand probably the hon. member for Engcobo is thinking of the battleaxes in his area and he is not in a position to apprehend constitutional issues . Traffic regulations have nothing to do with Native law and
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please . MR. RAJUILI: So the chiefs should take charge of this work with the tribal authorities , with the capability that they demand. If that cannot be so then, Sir, I submit it is an unconditional surrender of a policy that is impracticable and our chiefs will be accepting from the Government that the Government is now telling you in no uncertain terms that you are incapable and that the White man should do it. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Does it say a White Magistrate ? MR. RAJUILI: The hon. the Minister of the
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THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not going to listen to you because your policy is completely and diametrically opposed to ours. Your policy is that the Transkei must belong to the White people; that they must lead because they have the civilization and the knowledge for ever. As far as we are concerned you say the best man must get the best position. Isn't that so ? How many of you across the floor could occupy any high positions at all ? Even the hon. member for Maluti who holds a degree from the back door (Laughter) could hold no position. ( Interjections)
custom. It has nothing to do with that at all . These are some of the duties which will be performed by the African magistrates when they take over in the future. It must be understood that there will be a sharing of responsibilities between the African magistrate and the tribal chiefs. If you think that we are going to take off everything from the usual way of living in South Africa and hand it over to the tribal leaders , I think you are mistaken. Read our Constitution carefully and read in conjunction with that our rules of the public service . Don't come and make a wild statement. We thought you were really, hon. member , the Lion of the North , but I think we were mistaken.
MR. RAJUILI : Where did you get your degree ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I passed mine at Fort Hare . You had a friend as invigilator in Johannesburg. Now, we say this work can be done by the magistrate .
MR. RAJUILI : That was Mr. Strydom. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The late honourable Prime Minister , Mr. Strydom , did not have the little intelligence that you have . He was a great man and was able to understand constitutional law. But you have no intelligence at all . We have no provision for White civil servants in the Transkei and the laws we make here are for the Transkei citizens and will be applied by the Transkei magistrates . Why are you so worried about the presence of the White magistrates in the Transkei ?
MR . K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the mover of the amendment has already made things clear, to the effect that we are not opposed to this Bill , we are making an effort to remind the Government of their policy which they have evidently forgotten.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Withdraw this amendment.
MR . NOTA : The hon. the Chief Minister says he is watching to see how we shall vote on this. I will assure him that our opinion is already formed and as we have already made clear our amendment we do not need to go further and oppose this by voting. All we maintain is that you should keep strictly to your policy in all respects.
MR. RAJUILI: It does not worry us - it worries you . THE CHIEF MINISTER: As a multi- racialist , why put in an amendment if it does not worry you? You know the policies of the Government. The policy is that the Transkei is for the Transkei citizens . ( Interjections ) Don't be worried about having loaned White officials from the Republic. It must not worry you at all . (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I stated in my speech the day before yesterday , I envisaged that the hon. members would co -operate in getting this Bill through without any amendment, particularly in the first 180 sections of the Bill . In this regard I am not prepared to accept the amendment by the hon. member for Maluti because, in the first place , the authorities he is mentioning are not capable. (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : The hon. member for Fingoland is still a baby in so far as politics is concerned. I don't worry myself about mushroom politicians . I am still trying to reply to my hon. friend who has got better intelligence than the hon. member for Fingoland. Gentlemen, don't be confused . You have no policy on that side . We are clear about what we are doing. You must not be worried about the White loaned officials here who were loaned to us in 1963 when we took over. Don't be worried about the slowness of the gradual withdrawal of these officials . It is not your own affair . It is our affair. (Interjections ) We have told you that nearly a hundred have been withdrawn and that with that withdrawal we do not get any officials from the Republic to replace them .
OP POSITION MEMBERS : There you are , you say so yourself. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I do not deny the fact that some time in the future they may be given their rightful place . ( Interjections ) At the present moment , however, they are not functioning properly. I move that this section be passed. MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I will not make any reply here , more so as the hon. Minister concerned says openly that it is because the tribal chiefs are not capable or ready to do this. I will therefore withdraw this amendment.
MR.C. DIKO: What about the boys in the office ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , there are high officials who have left the Transkei .
Agreed to . Clause 1 put and agreed to .
MR. DIKO: Assistant magistrate?
On Clause 2 MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been told by the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Roads that the Tribal authorities are not yet capable of coping with this work, so I will withdraw this amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, holding higher positions than magistrates . If you want to know about them you put that question in writing and you will get the information. I want to give you the assurance that since you have no policy you must just understand what we are about. MR. RAJUILI : You are trying to adopt our policy here.
Clause 2 put and agreed to.
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On Clause 3
Bantu people. They are for these regions and I would understand if it was for the municipal areas. The people who are supposed to control these regulations are the people who are in these regions . I am not trying to dispute or oppose the regulations but what this Government should do is to have people who have knowledge of these matters to form the membership of the regional authority, and the chiefs should employ people who are efficient in carrying out these regulations . The regional authorities will remain in control of these people . We are aware that there are certain officials , but nothing has been said about the municipalities. All I wish to ask is that this Constitution should be strictly followed and that the regional authorities should be substituted for the local authorities. If these municipalities are included it should be only temporarily. It is quite evident that these regulations will not be the regulations for the Transkei because they are controlled by the White spots in the Transkei. In order to improve the present situation and encourage progress , people who are efficient should be appointed to these positions . ( Interjections) I am against the idea that the Whites should come and control the non- Whites . That is why I am supporting this amendment.
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , this amendment seeks to delete the words "local authority" and to substitute " regional authority" . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Which is the same thing. MR. RAJUILI : Now, here , Sir, the regional authorities are by the law of this Assembly in charge of some ofthe major roads inthe country. Now, honestly, if people are in charge of roads and this Government votes large sums ofmoney to keep those roads in a good state of repair, one cannot see how these able regional authorities cannot have officers taking care of what takes place on those roads. If I understand the word " local " authority , and I know that probably that side of the House does not understand , it means the municipalities in the urban areas .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Yes , that's right. MR. RAJUILI : Then how does the composition of a municipal council become the same council as the regional authority that is composed of African chiefs and appointed Africans ? In the local council or authority, there is not one black-faced monkey sitting on it, and in the regional authority there is not one pink-faced person sitting on it. Are we today throwing away these chiefs and showing them that we have been bluffing them that they are incapable of voting sums of money and asking the capable White people to take over? With us that is all right, and that is the right thing to do. It shocks us that it must come from this hon. Minister concerned to say today that the regional authorities are not the proper bodies to function over the roads for which they are regional authorities . There could be no better demonstration of the failure or impracticability of the policy of separate development than it is now so clear. Imove , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that the hon. mover of the motion is again confused, and also the last speaker. This document is too much for them . Just open page 2 of the Bill, hon. member from Qaukeni . At the bottom of the page it says that in the case of any other area in the Transkei , the magistrate of the district in which such area falls shall be the local authority. Now that refers to areas outside the municipal areas. (Interjections) Yes , even in the Republic the magistrate is the local authority. There is nothing ridiculous about it. In so far as these laws are concerned the magistrate in the Republic is the local authority. Don't try and be smart and make yourselves ridiculous . You take municipalities as being the local authorities . That refers only to the towns . Look at the definitions under (xxvii) (a) and (b) . Where the regional authorities have jurisdiction then the magistrate is the local authority. (Interjections ) There will be 26 in the Transkei as soon as you have the men in the future . When we make legislation we don't make it for today, but for the future , unless a man is so foolish as not to understand why the laws are made . We have laws here which were made before you were born. I regret that the hon. member who has just withdrawn a similar thing will allow such a thing to go on. He withdrew his amendment a few minutes ago. There is no difference between a regional and tribal authority, except that one is higher than the other.
MR. K.G. NOTA: I second. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is not very much to reply to in the speech of the hon. member for Maluti , because he says that local authorities must be substituted by regional authorities . As we know, local authorities are in charge of districts , and regional authorities take sometimes three districts , so one can understand how impossible that would be and therefore I still maintain that he is suggesting an impossibility. I move therefore that this clause be passed. MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support this amendment. The aim is to get the regional authorities to control. We have the lower authority in the tribal authority, and above the tribal authority we have the regional authority, and above that is this House. There is no provision in this Constitution for municipalities and it is quite clear that these municipalities are not Transkei bodies. I can see the hon. the Chief Minister wants to disagree with what I say but he is looking at the same book which I have in front of me. There is something about these municipalities , and in those towns it is stated that portions may be set aside for Africans , provided that any such area or portion of an area which has been reserved for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons shall cease to form part of the area under the jurisdiction of the municipality. Now, these regulations are controlled by
MR. RAJUILI: And the regional authority and the municipal council ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, "municipal council " only refers to the urban areas. MR. RAJUILI: Is there a difference ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am telling you that the municipal council is for the urban area only. MR. RAJUILI: And outside the municipality who is in charge ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The magistrate is the local authority . MR. A. RAZIYA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to have one point made clear as regards the 359.
Bill and the testing of vehicles for roadworthiness. If the authorities are in the Reserves . • •
in what way the exception will apply when a man is not a qualified motor mechanic ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , it appears you are not discussing the amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman . . ... MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , every time we ask questions the Chief Minister replies . This is a Bill for the Minister of Roads .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is supporting the section. He shows how ridiculous you are.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I will answer the hon. member. The language of a statute cannot be made to refer to one section or another. Here we have sub- section (a ) and (b) and there is nothing compelling the Minister to approve of anything. It is left to his discretion . Now, nobody really, who has got intelligence enough, would expect a Minister of a Cabinet to allow a man who is not a qualified mechanic to examine a vehicle, but that exception has got to be because there is sub- section (a ) as well as (b) .
MR. RAZIYA : I am trying to discuss this Bill, Mr. Chairman. Will you please give me time. In regard to roadworthiness , if you give authority to the local authorities and if the local authority should declare that the vehicle is not in roadworthy condition, how will that vehicle be brought into town for repair?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : You are quite right. You are supporting us. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
MR . MDA: Wouldn't it refer to (a) only then, and not to (b) ?
MR . RAZIYA : And if a vehicle is found to be not roadworthy outside the municipal area this means that you are bringing in a greater difficulty on the people who own vehicles . (Interjections) Let me say, for example , that the vehicle is found to be not roadworthy at Port St. John's . It means that the owner ofthe vehicle must send for a breakdown van to come and fetch his vehicle all the way to Umtata . ( Laughter and Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , the Ministers are responsible people . MR . MDA : Mr. Chairman , I am not satisfied with the explanation of the hon. the Chief Minister in this case . I admit that the exception may be well fitted in regard to ( a) . . . . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Even in (b) , there is nothing wrong with it.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I would request the hon. members to give a chance to the stenographer here. We are really making too much noise.
MR. MDA: • • .but where the exception goes to authorise the Minister to allow a person not qualified as a motor mechanic to examine vehicles ...
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, may I be made clear as far as clause 3 ( 2) is concerned? What sort of person will be qualified to give a vehicle a roadworthy certificate , unless he be a trained mechanic , for it is stated that except with the approval of the Minister no person shall be appointed ? I thought this would only begin at " No person shall be appointed ..." I would like to know what sort of person will be approved by the Minister.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is the case even in the Republic . It is not for the Transkei only. That is as it is in the Republic . What is wrong with that? MR . MOA: Then we begin to doubt the wisdom of that exception . In any event , the question by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was to find out in what circumstances the Minister would authorise a non-qualified person as a motor mechanic to examine vehicles - under what circumstances and whether it applies to the Republic or not is beside the point , Mr. Chairman .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That exception refers to (a) and not to (b) . CHIEF NDAMASE : Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This is an enabling clause , hon. members , where sometimes there are exceptional cases .
MR. RAJUILI : Again here , Mr. Chairman , the Government has shown that even although we said the local authorities could be under the regional authority of chiefs , they say not. Is that right ?
MR. MDA : What exceptional cases ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Where there is no trained mechanical expert and something must be done .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Carry
on. MR. RAJUILI: So these chiefs would have some work to do , even to the extent of controlling the Europeans , and the Government says no. (Laughter) The hon. the Chief Minister says the chiefs cannot control the people who have more power than they have , so I withdraw.
MR. RAJUILI : Well , let the tribal authorities do it then. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Look at sub- section 3 (a) .
Clause 3 put and agreed to .
MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Chief Minister in replying to the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , says the exception does not refer to sub- section (b) .
Clauses 4 and 5 put and agreed to. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , there is something confusing on the order paper , Sir. If you look at it you will find there is 5. ( 3 ) (d) (v) and so on, and according to the wording of the Bill I can see that this is numbering the amendments , but the chapters have not been put in so
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I was just bluffing him . MR. MDA: It definitely and specifically refers to either (a ) or (b) . Will the hon . Minister state 360 .
you make laws to provide for the future. Now that you have thought twice and found it fitting that you must amend this Provincial Ordinance to make it belong to the Transkei , then it must be proper and fitting. Why are you afriad to make it a Transkei registration number before you are independent? You have already made XG, why not make Tr. ?
as to indicate what the amendment refers to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think they were put down as you handed them to the Secretary. MR. RAJUILI: Yes, but sometimes if it is not clear they put it in properly. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We are on clause 6 now.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I have tried to explain to the hon. member that the time is inopportune and I made it plain in my speech the day before yesterday that we will amend our laws when the time comes. I told you yesterday that our aim is uniformity with the Republic at the present moment. I do not think I can say anything more , Mr. Chairman .
MR. RAJUILI : That is why I am drawing your attention to this . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Didn't you tell me you had withdrawn? MR. RAJUILI : Yes , but we expect the Chair to come to our assistance and call on us for the amendments . If the hon. Minister could motivate sub-clause (3) (d) (v) on page 7?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , according to the Schedule you have repealed this ordinance and I think this concerns just what the hon. member has said. You have repealed all these traffic ordinances. Just tell us now how we are retaining the Cape number?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, aren't we on clause 6?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : In simple language the Cabinet has not yet decided on what registration numbers to have.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Well , let us help him . Will the Minister please explain? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I should think that this is plain enough , Mr. Chairman . We are going to have courses in our technical schools where our students can study for a diploma or other qualifications . In that case I think this includes such courses , because the certificate offered by the Department . •
MR. DIKO: Why? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : We have still got to decide . We will decide the minute we pass this Bill, so the long and short of it is that the moment this Bill is passed the Cabinet will decide what numbers to use. In the interim we have got to hang on to something.
MR. RAJUILI: Will it be the same as motor mechanics recognized by the Industrial Council ?
Clause 8 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I should think so , because even now we sent our motor mechanics to be examined in Pretoria.
Clause 9 put and agreed to . On Clause 10
MR.
RAJUILI : Are they doing that now? OP POSITION MEMBERS: Please motivate .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , section 10 stipulates that where a period of grace is allowed in terms of the Act the applicant shall not be liable to prosecution or fine if he applies within the period of grace. I think that is quite clear.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the hon. member satisfied ? MR . RAJUILI: Yes , Mr. Chairman , since there is provision for motor mechanics to qualify.
Clause 10 put and agreed to. Clauses 6 and 7 put and agreed to.
Clauses 11 and 12 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 On Clause 13 MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, may the hon. Minister make it clear to this House what registration numbers they intend giving, since they are no longer part of the Cape Province . What do you contemplate for the Transkei , because it is a distinct state ?
MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I wish to know what diplomats we have inthe Transkei . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : At the present moment we have no diplomats stationed within the borders of the Transkei , but we are making provision so that it will be there in the future . Just a few weeks ago we had diplomats from Malawi and if there were no provision we would have been in difficulties .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, in reply to the question by the hon. member I would like to tell him that at present we are not envisaging changing the number-plates for the present time.
Clause 13 put and agreed to. MR. DIKO: So this is not a state ? When is it going to be a proper state ?
Clauses 14 to 24 put and agreed to. On Clause 25
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It will be a state when you get the independence you asked for.
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman , will the hon . Minister please motivate this .
MR . DIKO : No , Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied. Now, the hon. the Chief Minister said
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman
361 .
and hon. members , section 25 prescribes the procedure to be followed when a vehicle belongs to a partnership and one of the partners dies or retires from the business , or where a partner is admitted - that is , a new man coming into the business . The section also covers cases where
facilitate matters for members of the staff, so it does not fall upon them as an obligation to send acknowledgments.
Clause 26 put and agreed to. Clauses 27 to 29 put and agreed to.
the registered owner dies and his surviving spouse becomes the owner thereof. The registering authority is required to be notified of the change of circumstances , whereupon the relevant documents and registers can be amended . I think it is quite clear.
On Clause 30 MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Will the hon. Minister please explain (1 ) (a) . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I don't see anything difficult in that, because a certificate has got to be brought by the owner of the car when he is registering. There is nothing new in that.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, just to assist the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works , the hon. members were supplied with these explanatory notes on the Bill for the simple reason that we should not waste time asking the Minister to motivate , so I would request the hon. members whilst paging the Bill itself to page as well the explanatory notes. That will save trouble . After all , in motivating now he has but read what you have in front of you, so please just save time and read the notes.
MR. RAJUILI : I have owned cars for a period of twenty years . ( Interjections) Now, this is the only time the hon. Minister is working for his money, rather than the easy time he has during the rest of the year. This is the only time we can hold him by the tail. (Laughter)
Clause 30 put and agreed to. Clause 25 put and agreed to. On Clause 31 On Clause 26 CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I wish to ask the hon. Minister concerned to explain this.
MR. P. SOBAHLE : Mr. Chairman , will the hon. Minister explain why "may" has been substituted for " shall " and the word " shall " included in the section?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the motivation of this is that section 31 contains provisions whereby recognition is granted to the registration and licensing of vehicles registered and licensed outside the Transkei but used in the Transkei . When registration and licensing lapse in the territory concerned outside the Transkei , the registration and licensing also lapse in the Transkei . The vehicles are thereupon required to be registered and licensed in the Transkei. The authority concerned shall be advised thereof by the registering authority. The section further contains provisions in regard to the recognition of the requirements of the territory concerned and the United Nations Convention on Road Traffic in connection with the construction and equipment of motor vehicles and reflex reflectors .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It says the registering authority may knowledge receipt thereof. MR. C.S. MDA : Yes , why do you substitute "may" for " shall " ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : He must use his discretion. How can he be compelled to do a thing? (Interjections)
MR. MDA : Sub- section (4 ) further goes onto say that in any prosecution under sub- section (1) the onus of proving that the registering authority was notified shall be on the accused . It is for that reason that the Minister must satisfy us as to why he prefers " may " to " shall " .
Clause 31 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned. Clauses 32 and 33 put and agreed to. AFTERNOON SESSION On Clause 34 The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. CHIEF T. N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon . Minister to explain this . I cannot just follow it.
The debate on the Road Traffic Bill was resumed . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: When we adjourned we were dealing with clause 26 of the Bill. There was a question as to the use of "may" and "shall" .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, this section provides that motor dealers ' licences expire on the 31st December , but that vehicles may be operated under such licences on public roads , provided the licences are renewed not later than the 21st January. An owner who operates a motor vehicle contrary to this provision shall be liable in respect of the registration and licensing thereof.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , in order to clear up the misunderstanding I notice that the hon. member was attracted by this section of the Bill and I wish to explain that this is in line with the section of the Ordinance of the Cape Provincial Traffic Department. They have also changed the words and the reason is that in the larger centres it is very difficult for staff to cope with the work of sending acknowledgements to each and every owner of a car who changes his numbers , and so it becomes difficult for these officers to send acknowledgements. I think that explains the difficulty. It is purely to
Clause 34 put and agreed to. On Clause 35 MR . L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is something I cannot understand here in connection with dealers . Does it refer to Bantu or European dealers ? It was said 362.
any interpretation. He can go on without interpretation. (Laughter) s
originally that these regulations are for the Bantu people and I do not know that there is any Bantu car dealer. We would like to know from the hon. Minister exactly who these dealers are.
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just spoken is my friend, but I feel we do not agree on this point because some of us here do own cars , although we cannot speak the foreign language and I would not like them to be in a difficulty when they are asked these things outside the House . I insist on the interpreter going on because we like to be sure of the facts.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, at the present moment we have White dealers , but in future we expect to have Bantu dealers , and we are making provision that when we have our African dealers they will have the opportunity to get licences . (Interjections )
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the interpretation has already been made.
MR. MAZWI: Does the hon. Minister mean to tell us that this Act is envisaged for a hundred or a thousand years to come , or is it for the present? (Interjections)
CHIEF NDAMASE: All I want to do is to object to the idea that the interpreter should not interpret.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, this Act provides for the present and also for the distant future .
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, if I go to a garage to sell my car and it is licensed and I intend buying another car from the garage , where does the licence of the car I own at present go to?
Clause 35 put and agreed to. Clauses 36 to 41 put and agreed to. On Clause 42
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It should be plain to the hon. member that the licence was paid for a particular car and if he buys a different car which has got different serial numbers and other different things , it would not work with the car which he has bought and he would have to get another licence.
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I cannot understand the whole of section 42. I wish to ask the hon. Minister to explain . This section is rather long and I can see he will explain until next week. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , section 42 prescribes the procedure to be followed for the registration and licensing of a registered and licensed vehicle when it changes ownership. The previous owner is required to furnish the new owner with a notice of transfer together with the registration certificate , the current licence and the clearance certificate applicable to the vehicle . Both the registration and licensing of the vehicle become void but the new owner is permitted , notwithstanding such invalidity, to operate the vehicle for 21 days , during which period he is required to register and licence it in his name, with the appropriate registering authority. For this purpose he shall submit to the registering authority the notice of transfer , together with the registration certificate , the current licence and the clearance certificate. Should there be no alteration of registering authority, the registering authority shall enter particulars of the change of ownership in its records , effect the necessary changes in name and address on the current licence and return the relevant documents to the new owner. Should the new owner reside in the area of another registering authority, such registering authority shall cancel the documents applicable to the vehicle and register and license the vehicle in the name of the new owner. If a current licence and clearance certificate exist in respect of the vehicle, no further fees are payable therefor by the new owner. The section furthermore contains appropriate provisions covering those cases where a motor dealer becomes the owner of a registered vehicle and the procedure to be followed when the motor dealer sells such vehicle to another owner. It also provides which notices are to be submitted to registering authorities. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, while I did not like to interrupt the hon. Minister in his explanation I wanted to say that we are discussing a matter in which all these people are not interested. They are not interested in motorcars, but only in horses , so there is no need for
MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, what is the reason for this change ? We used to go and buy a car which is a different car altogether and the new car is registered with the same licence , and then you paid a small sum to have it transferred. I want to know what is the reason for this change . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The reason is to gain uniformity in administration. We are making uniform laws now in regard to traffic. MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, I want the real explanation for this change , as the hon. Minister says the man who buys a new car will be the loser, whereas prior to that the licence was transferred to the new car. What is the reason for this change? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I was also not quite clear about this matter but I have since received some information. It would appear that it is not as the hon. member for Gcalekaland explains . If the hon. member should wish to sell the car he owns and buy another one , shall we say in June , when he gets a licence for the other car he also gets a reduction on the licence for the new car to cover the period that remains. It is just as it used to be and there is no change whatsoever. MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, the reduction is made on the car that you buy in June when you have no car traded in and you only pay for the six months that you run it. Say I am trading in my old car and buying a new one . What happens to the licence of my old car ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Are you aware that the licence that you would be holding has the numbers of the car you are selling ? Now do you want the numbers of that old car to remain on the licence for the new one ? MR . BUSAKWE : That is how it has always been. This is something new.
363.
MR. Z. CHEMANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after the explanation of the hon. the Minister of the Interior I feel that what he said is quite true . When you take your car to the garage to trade it in for another car and you have paid your licence for that current car you have to pay for the remaining period .
change in so far as the payment of licences is concerned . The only change is in connection with the number-plates and other things. MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to make clear what was said by the last speaker . Supposing your car is overturned and it was fully licensed and you have to buy an entirely new car, will you have the right to remove the licence from your old car and transfer it to the new car ? I would like to say that the position at the present time is this : Supposing you want to put your licensed car in the garage and the garage tells you that the licence on your old car has expired and they tell you to get a new licence . (Interjections )
MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is not the Government. We have never heard before of a nonmember of the Government trying to stand in this House and displace the Minister in explaining bills. I am afraid we may go out of order in trying to follow this irrelevant unofficial explanation. I do not think we have come to a stage where we can regard our hon. Minister as incapable of piloting his Bill and I think we must give him a chance.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. RAJUILI: The Minister is not listening.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if we look at page 23, sub-section 43 (5 ) reads as follows : "Where a licence fee which accrues to the Transkeian Revenue Fund has already been paid for the current year in respect of a motor vehicle referred to in sub- section ( 3) or (4) , no further licence fee for such vehicle shall be payable in respect of the same year. "
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I still wish to know from the hon. member for Galekaland where it is actually contained in this section. MR. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman , I want the hon Minister to make this clear to the House . We want it to be clear because we own and use motor cars . (Interjections)
MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, I think the matter needs thorough explanation because this is how I understand it. If I sell my own car that means I must sell it together with its licence for that year. Is that so ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: The position is , if a car perhaps turns over and it was fully licensed, provision is made. for him when he purchases another car for the amount he has paid in licence fees on the old car.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , this section deals with the repossession of a registered motor vehicle .
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I noticed people were interested in this so I held back my questions under section 42. The hon. Minister read the sub-bill .
MR. BUSAKWE : How do you repossess a car ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Suppossing you buy a car from a motor dealer on hirepurchase and you fail to pay your required instalments and the car is taken back by that particular garage . If you do then have sufficient funds to repossess that motor car you will not be required to pay further licence fees .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: What do you mean by that? MR . RAJUILI: I mean there are two here . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Those are explanatory notes .
MR. BUSAKWE : I am not talking about hirepurchase , I am talking about a car which I own.
MR. RAJUILI : Sɔ I need not bother about those ? Anyway, what is the meaning of that long paragraph ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : But that is not in this section here . It is repossession of vehicles under hire -purchase .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Those are the explanatory notes.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : No , that is section 43. We have not gone as far as that.
MR. RAJUILI : What do you mean by "the appropriate registering authority" ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I am sorry. I am ahead of you.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That is plain enough, because sometimes he may have purchased the car from another district and he now wants to register it in the district in which he lives . The authority in that district would be the appropriate registering authority.
MR . BUSAKWE : I have a car which is licensed fully and I have third party insurance on it. Now I am going to buy a different car and give up the car I had . I now remove the two discs from the car - the third party and the licence discs for the year . Now I go to the insurance company to change the third party disc over to the car I am now buying and then I go to the revenue office to have the licence from the old car transferred to the new car. Now that was the position in the past. What I want to know is what was wrong with that procedure that we are bringing in this new provision . Why should we lose on the licence that we had paid in full ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS :
MR. RAJUILI : All right, I will leave off speaking English because I am told they do not understand it. I will speak Sesutho now. I would like to know what you mean when you say there may be several districts and the buyer can go to the district he likes. What do you mean exactly? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , I did not talk about many districts . I was merely explaining the appropriate registering authority.
There is no 364.
as read and confirmed.
It was a mere example.
NOTICE OF BILL
MR. RAJUILI: You said they could go to any office. That means I might be resident in Mqanduli , trade in my car at Qamata , whereas I want to go and settle at Umzimkulu. That means I am resident at Mqanduli , register my car at Qamata whereas I live and work in Umzimkulu district. I would request the hon . the Minister of Roads to reply to my question.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 13th June , 1967 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill relating to the registration of voters and the conduct of election of members of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the hon. member does not understand English I will speak Sesutho. The position is just as it has always been. A person may buy a car at Mqanduli but if his place of residence is in Umtata the appropriate registering authority will be in Umtata . That is where he is going to register it . I feel , Mr. Chairman, we are really wasting time. Please let us be serious .
TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC BILL TEE STAGE
COMMIT-
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House resolve itself into committee . MR. R. MSENGANA : I second .
Agreed to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am now closing the debate on this particular point.
House in Committee The debate was resumed .
MR . RAJUILI: I am afraid if we want an explanation of the Bill clause by clause it cannot be until it is quite clear . It is not clear. The registering authority is not what the hon. Minister says it is , and it is not clear. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question that clause 42 stand part of the Bill.
are
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, when we adjourned we were still dealing with clause 42. That discussion had been finished and the Minister had already intimated that he had nothing further to say. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I hear the Chairman say we were through with clause 42 .
MR. RAJUILI : The House cannot agree if we not satisfied . It is unparliamentary.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I say we had finished the discussion and the hon. Minister intimated that he had nothing else to say. I had already started putting the question.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please.
MR. RAJUILI : We are not following procedure . It cannot be done.
MR. RAJUILI : I know, Mr. Chairman, that what was happening was a peculiar thing of trying to force down a law before we could feel it was clear . In other words , clause 42 provoked quite a lot of discussion because of explanations that we required .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, it being a Friday I move that we adjourn. I see that instead of dealing with this Bill we are just playing now. I therefore move that we adjourn.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Yougot explanations .
MR. RAJUILI : I second. Agreed to.
MR. RAJUILI : I do not know if the House was satisfied with the explanation and if it should just be pushed through. I think we have to understand what is being legislated . That is important.
The debate was adjourned.
House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Chairman said the hon. Minister intimated he had nothing further to say.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , before we adjourn I would like to say this: I notice that particularly on Friday afternoon the members do not attend as they should. An infectious disease is very dangerous because it becomes an epidemic . Those members who are responsible enough to attend here will soon give up that practice and fall into the Next Friday I bad practice of not attending. shall apply a remedy to this disease and I hope no hon. member will complain . This is my final word.
MR. RAJUILI : I wonder if at this stage , to avoid any further contention, it could be taken out. I don't know what this thing is . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I told you there were explanatory notes to the Bill. MR . RAJUILI : The hon. Minister says there are explanatory notes explaining the matter. We do not need any explanatory notes . We understand what we are doing . It is because these Ministers do not understand and the Secretaries have to make explanatory notes and they come to confuse us here. You ask him and he cannot say what the appropriate registering authority is. We own cars and I want to know whether, if I buy a car here in Umtata and I work in Tsolo • • • .(Interjections) Let me make it clear. I happen to know the law which says you register a car with the municipality at the place where you live . Is that right?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 12th June, 1967 MONDAY, 12TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken
365.
information.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Quite .
MR. GUZANA: Yes , I just wanted an example of the type of information which they may require . because all the statistical information is with the registering authorities. In the case of the car which has been stolen or is in my possession I may give evidence on that fact, but here you legislate for some information or some evidence . I have to be sub-poenaed formally to give evidence if my car has been stolen.
MR. RAJUILI: Now, what do you mean by this? GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Just what it says . MR. RAJUILI : What is the appropriate registering authority? This is confusion. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I will repeat, has the hon. Minister anything further to say?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Say the car has been stolen before you have paid for it completely .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , as I stated the other day all the arguments were exhausted . Everything is clear. The explanatory notes explain the procedure . Ihave nothing more to add.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , that is provided in the criminal code , that I will be sub-poenaed to give evidence , but what other information would you require to make provision here ?
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Do you admit that the effect of this section is that once that car is registered it carries that registration number until it is scrapped?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: It is to provide for exigencies . MR . GUZANA: What are the exigencies ? That is what we are asking. We just want an example , that is all.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , because uniformity has to be adopted and the Transvaal system was adopted in this case .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It may happen that in the course of the vehicle's life the owner changes the bodywork on the car , which the authorities do not have on record , and other technical changes may be made in the engine as well.
MR. GUZANA : Except where that car is reregistered by another registering authority in the event of the buyer living in the area of another registering authority? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes .
MR. GUZANA: If I may ask , isn't it provided elsewhere in this Bill for the owner of a vehicle to report any changes he makes to the vehicle to the registering authority? That is , I may change the engine and put in a 1964 engine into a 1963 body. I am required to report that to the registering authority , as you say , so that all the information is in the record card bearing all the That is why I statistics relating to the car. was asking why it is necessary to make this provision.
Clause 42 put and agreed to. Clauses 43 and 44 put and agreed to. On Clause 45.. MR . GUZANA : Will the hon. Minister please motivate that. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , section 45 requires that owners or former owners of motor vehicles shall furnish particulars to certain officials in connection with vehicles which are or have been in their possession.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there may be a provision requiring the owner of the car to furnish such information as referred to by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition . I think this section provides for certain exigencies where the owner of a car does not furnish such information and it provides or enables these officials to go to the owner and request this information.
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know what the nature of the information and evidence is, because the registering authority has all the details relating to a car since the car does not change its registration number and all particulars relating to a car are with the registering authority. Now what is this evidence or information which will be required , let us say, from me in connection with a car which I owned in 1964 and sold.
MR. GUZANA : Couldn't he do that in the normal course of his duty? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who is that? MR. GUZANA: A police officer investigating the matter.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I believe to a certain extent it relates to cases where sometimes there is doubt of possession . MR. GUZANA : I take it that the record relating to the car is with the registering authority? THE
MINISTER
OF
ROADS : Yes , it is.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He may, but I think these officials are being enabled now either the magistrate , the Secretary or a police officer. There may be no way else where these officials are enabled to carry on with that duty.
MR . GUZANA: Now, what information may I be required to give relating to a car which I owned in 1962 and sold in 1963?
MR. RAJUILI : When you replied , reading from the blue paper, you referred to a change in the body and a change of engine. I take it that for the engine you mean the exchange from one engine to another ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : There may not be any information required of you but it may happen that you are not the lawful owner of a vehicle. In that case the authorities might require
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes . 366 .
MR. RAJUILI : Now, when you change the body , let me first find out if you have to register the body of the car or do you register the engine – the registration number and the model ? I would like to have further explanations . Do you mean What do you perhaps changing a mudguard? mean by a change in the body?
card .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is quite plain that a car is registered in its present condition. If it is perhaps a panel van with its body intact, the owner might simply want to change it into an open van and the appearance of the van is changed .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in what circumstances will a registering authority require that a weighbridge certificate be issued in respect of a vehicle in view of the fact that the motor dealer who sells a new vehicle must issue to the buyer a certificate giving the tare of the vehicle? I can understand in relation to buses which have had to have the body built on to a chassis , and I want to ask what facilities there are in the Transkei for obtaining a weighbridge certificate in view of the fact that the owner of the vehicle has to bear the expense of obtaining the weighbridge certificate , and that the nearest weighbridge is 140 -odd miles from Umtata in East London.
MR. RAJUILI : Thank you , I am satisfied . Clause 45 put and agreed to .
On Clause 46 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, an obligation is placed upon the person to whom a temporary permit has been issued and two identification cards , to surrender the two identification cards Now, if I know on registration of a vehicle . anything about these identification cards , if they are exposed to inclement weather they either are destroyed or are made unidentifiable . What is going to happen in a situation like that , when an identification card which is usually just cardboard is destroyed because of weather conditions , and the owner will not be able to comply with one of the requirements of this section? MR . RAJUILI : And adding to that , how long is the temporary period ?
Clause 46 put and agreed to . Clauses 47 and 48 put and agreed to.
On Clause 49
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I quite appreciate the difficulty of the Transkei being unable to provide its own weighbridge at the present moment, and that the owner is required to bear the expense , but it cannot be helped at the present moment, (Laughter) because the law is made to provide that these things must be done. As I have stated more and more often, this is an Act that is being made to standardize the laws relating to the Transkei. MR. GUZANA: All right, when are you having a weighbridge constructed in view of the fact that you want to standardize everything ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: 21 days . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think there is provision in the Act allowing the owner of the card to keep them on his person so that they will not be destroyed . MR. GUZANA : No , the identification cards must be placed where the number-plates are usually fixed . How can I keep these in my pocket? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I mean when the weather is bad they can be kept inside the windscreen . MR. GUZANA : The permit is fixed inside the windscreen, but the identification card is fixed where the registration number is normally fixed . Now, I say this is destroyed by inclement weather and you are required to return it when it is already destroyed by inclement weather . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it can be replaced . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You merely explain that it is destroyed. MR . GUZANA : What I want to know is whether or not, if that card is destroyed by the weather , one can go for a new one relating to the balance of the unexpired period ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : When the time is opportune . MR . GUZANA : The time is opportune now, when you are legislating for a weighbridge . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is not necessary at the moment. MR. GUZANA: It is necessary. You have people building buses here on chassis and those buses have to be weighed to get the tare , and they have to go to East London for it. So there is need. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There are not many such cases. MR. GUZANA : There are . People who use lorries for cartage purposes may only buy the chassis and have the body built elsewhere. Now they have to go to East London to get a weighbridge certificate . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I say there are very few such people.
MR . GUZANA : I say you must legislate for that need. You must give us an assurance that you will have a weighbridge built here . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is one at the railway station.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You apply for a duplicate.
MR. GUZANA : Is that available to the public?
MR. GUZANA : You are required to return this card to the registering authority.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Has the hon. Minister anything more to say?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You see, the permit is there and you apply for a duplicate
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No , Mr. Chairman, I can add nothing further. 367 .
MR. GUZANA : Are you contemplating putting up a weighbridge ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : When the time comes. (Interjections) MR. GUZANA : The time has come . He wants this weighbridge provision now and he must tell us when he is going to provide a weighbridge . (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA : Well, he can get a new plate and get the registration number. I am thinking of the authority authorizing this mark to be cut or impressed into the body of the car. Will the hon. Minister please move conveniently so that we can get the information from him? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Sometimes the motor vehicle is stolen and the thief defaces either the engine number or the chassis number . That is what this refers to.
Clause 49 put and agreed to by 53 votes to
26. On Clause 50 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, there are certain sections of this clause ruled out and we would like an explanation . THE MINISTER OF ROADS: When this Bill was contemplated it was contemplated that motor cycles would have a separate roll , but since then the whole thing has been changed so there is no separate roll now for tricycles and motor cycles. It was therefore necessary to remove those words .
MR . GUZANA: Yes , I was thinking of my car being defaced by an irresponsible agent of the registering authority, so we must know specifically that whatever cut is made will not spoil or reduce the value of the car. Clause 55 put and agreed to. Clauses 56 to 67 put and agreed to . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , there is something which worries me here , where the person who trains a learner must have a certificate authorizing him to teach a person to drive a car . I don't know where it is among these sections .
Clause 50 put and agreed to .
On Clause 68
Clause 51 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I would like motivation on this section.
On Clause 52 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I would just ask whether this penalty is not a bit heavy 121/2 per cent per annum calculated on each completed R2 of the fee. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It has always been like that.
MR. GUZANA : I am asking whether it is not a heavy fine. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It does not matter whether it is heavy or not , because it is uniform throughout . (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : This uniformity is rather a bludgeon you are wielding over this House . Clause 52 put and agreed to . Clauses 53 and 54 put and agreed to. On Clause 55 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, may I know what these marks are for identifying the vehicle which will be put permanently on the vehicle?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Section 68 contains provisions in regard to the validation in the Transkei of drivers ' licences and permits issued outside the Transkei in areas recognized Certain of these licences , however, by law. become void after the holder remains in the Transkei for longer than six months . The holder of a licence which was issued in a prescribed territory or a foreign country , or the holder of an international permit who becomes permanently resident in the Transkei may , within six months , exchange such licence or permit free of charge, at the appropriate registering authority for a Cape licence. For this purpose he shall furnish the required number of photographs of himself. Any endorsement which appears on the surrendered licence or permit and which is still in force shall be entered on the new licence . MR . GUZANA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I did not realise that the hon . Minister was reading from the explanatory notes . I should have put my question more simply, like this: If a driver has a driver's licence issued in the Transvaal and becomes permanently resident in the Transkei , what does he do? Is his driver's licence still valid without submission to the necessary registering authority?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is the conventional marks which are usually placed on vehicles at the front or rear of the car , usually a number.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , his licence would be valid.
MR. GUZANA : It is the mark I am worried about, because the section says it may be cut, impressed, embossed or attached permanently to that vehicle . What is that mark?
On Clause 69
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The engine or serial number. MR. GUZANA: No , that is on the engine , and the chassis has its numbers . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Supposing the registration number is missing?
Clause 68 put and agreed to .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , would such a driver be able to exchange that driver's licence for a normal driver's licence without having to obtain a learner's licence ? He has already been driving for five or six years a vehicle belonging to the S.A.R. & H. Administration. He is an experienced driver and I take it he should be able to surrender that licence for a driver's licence issued to a person who has already had to have a learner's licence . After all , that person has been let loose on the roads and has 368.
MR. GUZANA: The licensing officer should be able to cancel the licence if it is shown from a medical examination that he has a condition which precludes him from driving.
been using those public roads under licence issued to him by the Railways Administration. What is the position? If no, why.. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, the answer to the question is No. The SAR is not a registering authority for licences but there will be no difficulty for the driver in getting a licence if he passes the test and pays the fees .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I don't think the licensing officer has that right. Clause 70 put and agreed to. On Clause 71
MR. GUZANA : What we would like is that he should avoid a learner's licence , already having the driver's licence of the SAR & H , in view of the fact that he is only issued with that driver's licence if he is not disqualified by the provisions of this Bill. He should pay the prescribed fee and have a driver's licence normally issued to drivers issued to him . Is that so ?
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I know what circumstances might arise which would make a Minister reinstate a licence cancelled by the courts ? This implies that the Minister would in effect be saying that the court had erred in suspending a man's licence.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : If the procedure proposed by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition were adopted it would enable the driver to avoid paying the fees.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And suppose the court had erred ? MR. GUZANA: The appeal court must deal with that.
MR. GUZANA : He pays the fee to get another licence issued .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And if he does not appeal ? Appeal courts are very expensive .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I mean the fee for the learner's licence .
MR. GUZANA : Then it is a money-making provision.
MR. GUZANA: Yes , but is the Minister just allowed that right? It may be exercised arbitrarily and in favour of some cases and not in others . He has not the judicial power to sit on cases , but this seems to give him the right to veto a finding of the court.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No , that is the way everybody goes. MR . GUZANA: He already has a licence under the SAR & H , and he already knows how to drive .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: It happens sometimes that a licence has been confiscated or the man loses his licence somehow or other , and for certain reasons (perhaps he is a habitual drunkard and becomes rehabilitated ) the Minister feels that this man has totally changed from his previous conduct . I do think that in cases of that nature it is necessary to have a review . This section is making provision for such cases to be reviewed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is moneymaking. We concede that. (Laughter) Clause 69 put and agreed to. On Clause 70 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, how does the Minister become aware of this information ? He is given the power to suspend or disqualify a person from holding a licence . How does he come to get this information?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : What is the modus operandi in the case of the Minister himself? He is a Supposing he is an habitual citizen himself. drunkard , as he has said. Will he consider that he has rehabilitated himself? Who will decide – who will The position is that? (Laughter) determine if the Minister is sufficiently rehabilitated to be allowed to drive a car again?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , reports will have been made either by the police or traffic officers that he is not a good driver and also in court cases , to the effect that he was convicted of certain offences . The Minister would then be in a position to know.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : There may be some other authority like the Cabinet who can decide that.
MR. GUZANA : Wouldn't the court have endorsed his licence , or suspended it for a period as a punishment?
Clause 71 put and agreed to . On Clause 72
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , that could be . MR . GUZANA : I would like to know what advantage is being gained by this new provision. Originally all endorsements were left on the driver's licence , no matter how old they were, but now it is sought to have people issued with new licences three years after an endorsement has been placed on their driver's licence . Now , if you produce a new licence to a court when you are going to be tried for a traffic offence , immediately you are telling the court that you have had an endorsement on your old licence and that is why you have a new licence three years after the endorsement ...
MR. GUZANA : Why have him disqualified by a Minister then? He is already temporarily disqualified for two years or so , and any driver who behaves in an improper manner on the road may be called upon by the traffic officer to submit himself to an examination , and if the medical certificate indicates that he has a sickness or condition which disqualifies him then he is automatically disqualified , I take it? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about the cancellation of the licence ? He must be disqualified if he is still holding the licence . He may still have it after the medical examination.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You might 369.
authorities. I am thinking of a man from Umzimkulu who has to travel to Umtata to obtain a certificate from the Minister, with the object of teaching his wife to drive . Will you kindly explain?
have lost your licence .
• .and the probability is MR. GUZANA : · that the court gets an adverse impression of your driving ability straight away. I would like to know what advantage is going to be derived from this new legislation .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That will be done by the registering authority or other authority designated to do so.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The advantage is that a man starts with a clean record.
Clause 73 put and agreed to . Clauses 74 and 75 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA : But he is still one and the same person who had an endorsement.
On Clause 76 THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It means a concession has been made to assist him to rehabilitate himself.
MR. GUZANA: Does this mean that the owner of the vehicle must make sure that the person who seeks to drive it must have a licence ?
MR. GUZANA : He is still the same man who had an accident some years before .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes . Clauses 76 to 78 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : But he may be a changed man. It is not necessary to penalise a man for life when he changes his habits .
On Clause 79
MR. GUZANA : If this certificate of fitness is issued in the Transkei , will it be valid , for instance , in Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows that even in criminal offences , where a man committed an offence long ago, he sometimes pleads to the court that this man has gone a long time without committing an offence and the court must not take cognizance of his previous record .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Yes , it will be in order there and that is one of the reasons why we want uniformity.
MR . GUZANA: But the record of his criminal activities is not obliterated .
Clause 79 put and agreed to . On Clause 80
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The advantage is that when a man has a new licence after the lapsing of the endorsements , directly you show your licence to the traffic cops they will see that this is an old sinner , whereas if you have a new licence
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , this certificate of fitness is giving me quite a lot of concern. Usually the man who tests the car and issues the roadworthy certificate looks at the tyres , brakes rear-view mirror, lights , registration number and things like that. These may all look very well and in good condition , but the engine may be very, very bad and an unscrupulous seller may put in thick oil in order to silence any knock in the engine. Is there any way of safeguarding the public against this practice which is going on? I must say it is catching quite a number of people , particularly Africans . They buy a car in East London, drive it smoothly and when they get to Komgha it is hitting the engine almost through the bonnet. Can it not be required that something be done to test the engine or in what way can it be done ? - I mean by means of a mechanical stethoscope or something like that. Has the matter been considered?
MR. GUZANA : You are likely to deceive them into thinking that you are a good driver. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: · • .it will show them that you are a changed man .
Clause 72 put and agreed to. On Clause 73 THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Section 73 requires instructors of learner- drivers , on payment of the appropriate fee , to obtain an instructor's certificate from the Minister. The Minister shall require the applicant to be tested and examined and also to submit himself to a medical examination. The costs of any test and examination shall be borne by the applicant . Instructor's certificates are valid for a period of one year. This applies more or less to the driving schools , or to people who think that it is a way of earning a living.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This question by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition deals more or less with what I would call holy ground , because it deals with trade with which the Government has nothing to do. One man goes to a dealer and buys a car and they enter into an agreement. The other man is knocked and it is very difficult indeed for us to do anything about this .
MR . GUZANA: It only applies to those people then, so don't say "more or less " . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes.
MR . GUZANA: You are already requiring that there should be a roadworthy certificate and you look at wheels and tyres and lights , and that is part of the trade. You look at those things , why not the engine ?
MR. GUZANA : So you don't need a certificate to train your wife? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : If a man thinks he has been swindled , he can have recourse to a court of law.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to know whether these certificates will be obtained from the Minister here in Umtata or also with the local
MR. GUZANA : I don't want to defent a swin370.
dler
I want him stung.
with this thing .
They usually get away
what that qualificative " our" means , but in so far as the courts of the country are concerned we are indeed known for a high standard of justice, so I don't know what "our" means whether he means these tribal courts in the Transkei ...
I don't defend scoundrels .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Regulations could be made to safeguard the buyer. MR . GUZANA: Thank you, we would like that done.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Don't waste time . This can never be tried by a tribal court.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That can be considered.
MR. RAJUILI: We have so many courts in this country. I don't know whether this Assembly passes laws that will be qualificative.
MR. GUZANA : I hope you will bear that in mind.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Anyway, we have passed that clause, hon. member.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I have always borne that in mind because I have suffered myself.
On Clause 89 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this section it is stated that one will apply for a public driving permit and it appears that it is a permit for a particular job. Suppose this man does something without this permit?
Clause 80 put and agreed to . Clause 81 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What is "lento ithile " ? It is for a specific thing.
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: In those sections there are special provisions. Why is no provision made in this section for a specific penalty?
The debate on the Transkei Road Traffic Bill was resumed.
Clauses 82 to 87 put and agreed to. On Clause 88
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: These are covered by a general penalty. Anybody who fails to comply with the provisions of this Act will be subject to a penalty.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, it does happen sometimes that an emergency arises where a public vehicle has to be driven by a person who does not hold a public driving permit where , for instance , a party goes out in a bus and the driver with a public driving permit either falls ill or becomes inebriated, and it is safer to ask a man who has a driver's licence to drive the bus rather than ask the man who is under the weather to do so. Would his case be considered sympathetically?
CHIEF NDAMASE : Why do you not provide a penalty specifically for this? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is not necessary. CHIEF NDAMASE : I would like the hon. the Minister of Roads to reply to this.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I think it would be considered sympathetically .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : All cases where it is not specifically stated that a particular penalty ensues , are covered by a general penalty.
MR. GUZANA: Because it would be an emergency situation .
CHIEF NDAMASE: What about those sections that have been particularly provided with subsections ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes . Clause 88 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is because they are different from the other sections.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , do we legislate laws that can be breakable under consideration sympathetically? Who will give you that sympathetic consideration? Is it the court of law who is doing this or is it the Minister? Because according to the court of law it just looks into what the law says and the man is gone , and the Minister will not be there to see to it. A man may be defended by an amateur attorney ...
CHIEF NDAMASE: I want to know what is the difference . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You can see it if you can read. CHIEF NDAMASE : I can't see it and I want to know. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is why I say you came back empty- headed from Fort Hare.
MR. GUZANA: No, there is no amateur attorney. (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI : Well , who would consider this sympathetically?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the Minister anything to say?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Our courts of law are always very fair and a case of this nature would be considered sympathetically.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I have nothing further to add. Clause 89 put and agreed to.
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I don't know 371 .
Clauses 90 to 96 put and agreed to.
relations and we are stopped. I have no proof that this is my wife and my son and daughterin- law and so on. What then?
On Clause 97
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, there have been so many cases of motor drivers who pirate or illegally transport passengers, and some of them got into the habit of advising their passengers that if called upon to give their addresses, for the purposes of giving evidence for the State they give wrong addresses , and it is found that such persons and would-be witnesses cannot be obtained . That is why the onus is cast upon the accused who will know where his passengers stay in order to come and give evidence for him. If you travel with your wife or son or daughter- in- law, or whatever it is , those people can easily come and give evidence to the effect that you transported them not for reward. Now when once you tell the court that those people paid for petrol , you must know that you are in the soup, because that is for gain, and you are proving the State case that you transported for gain. So if you transport your •
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, this section seems to presume that a motor- car driven along a public road and conveying passengers shall be presumed to be a vehicle used to convey passengers for reward. Does the Minister realise that in the hands of an unscrupulous traffic officer this can really degenerate into persecution on the public, because any car with people in it can be stopped and the driver charged with conveying passengers for reward. Then sub- section ( 2) of this section says that where a vehicle has a certificate of fitness it will be presumed to be a public motor vehicle. Now I would like some explanation of these points from the Minister. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , in the first instance we do not expect our officials such as traffic officers to be unscrupulous . It is the duty of any Government to trust its employees to be reasonable with the general public and if it should happen at any time that some officious officer has ill -treated the public there are always channels for recourse .
MR. RAJUILI : Why are they listening to you? You are not the Minister piloting the Bill.
MR. GUZANA: You see , the law allows him to stop a car and accuse the driver of using his car to get reward by loading passengers and he has to go to court to prove that he was not using it for reward.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is that if you transport your friend , even if they put in petrol ..
MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think , Sir, while we may not here and there mind other Ministers assisting, I think it is highly out of order for a Minister to displace the minister piloting the Bill and we want the Minister responsible for the Bill to reply to the questions.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , but it has always been like that , Mr. Chairman , and any court will discharge any person who is somaliciously charged . MR. GUZANA : But he can negative malice by saying the law allows him to do this.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think his mind is misplaced - that is all there is to it. Now, you asked a question as to what would happen if those people said they were going to a funeral and merely helped the motor owner by putting in petrol . Well, I would advise you under such circumstances to say you were merely transporting your friends to a funeral and forget about putting in petrol , because , legally, once you say those people put in petrol you have proved the State case and the man must be convicted.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : As I have said, our officers are always responsible people . MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I thought you said there may be some officious officers who might do this. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I admit there may be. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I don't think the hon. Minister has replied to my second question. It states that a certificate of fitness , whilst in force in respect of a vehicle , makes that vehicle a public motor vehicle . I want to know why it is so . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is extremely difficult in a court to prove the conveyance of people or goods for reward, so it is necessary for a person so charged to prove that he was not so doing . I presume that the certificate of fitness is only made applicable to buses or taxis and not to private cars , so I think there is no danger in that clause.
MR. ZIBI : So the position is we are trying to avoid going to court. Now suppose you leave Umtata and you meet this indignity (because indignity it is) at Ixopo or somewhere , how do you avoid getting to court? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In my experience a reasonable explanation is always accepted. These people who are taken to court are the people who have been seen, more often than not, always transporting people. Clause 97 put and agreed to .
MR. H. H. ZIBI : Here is a particular case , Mr. Chairman. We are going to Mount Frere for a funeral and we have friends to whom we are giving a lift and they pay part of the petrol . We meet a traffic cop on the way and he says we have no right to do that.
On Clause 98
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is for you to prove.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, in regard to sub- section (9) (a) and (f) , suppose I am a passenger in Mr. Raziya's bus and someone insults me in the bus and this person gets off the bus , who is going to charge this person who has insulted me ?
MR. ZIBI : In another case I am taking my wife and mother- in- law and other relations and the traffic cop does not know we are all close
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think the hon. member should take the particulars of the individual - his name and address.
372.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, I agree with the Leader of the Opposition on this provision in so far as the Transkei Government's jurisdiction is concerned , but as far as I know , at the present time the local authorities in the urban areas are under the jurisdiction of the Cape Provincial Administration, over which we have no control. I am in full agreement with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in this respect but our powers in the Transkei Government are limited in this matter .
MR. C.S. MDA : If he does not give you his name? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : You can get the information from other people and then you can charge him . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I seem to get the impression that section 98 and , if fact , one or two other sections , relate to the transportation of passengers rather than to traffic. Would this section not be relevant in the Motor Transportation Act , rather than in a traffic bill such as we have before us , because it is really dealing with a vehicle having a motor carrier certificate ? It seems to be out of context here .
MR . GUZANA : Now, Sir , if I may help you out - if you cannot catch a horse by the nose you try the tail , so if you cannot put up a speed limit sign within the urban area you can put it up on the approaches to the urban area and there will not be a clash of authority over that.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is a consolidation of all the other Acts so as to facilitate matters .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : At what distance from the urban area ?
MR. ZIBI : Does the hon. Minister seriously mean that to spit upon any part of the bus, as mentioned in (f) , is really an offence ? I will ask the Minister to put aside his presuppositions and ask for a decision. I don't want him to tell me he thinks . I want a precise answer. I am contemplating a bus in Emigrant Tembuland , for instance , where everybody is spitting and even the women are smoking long pipes . (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: What do you mean by urban area? You talk about the commonage and the residential areas . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I think we shall concede that as far as the Department is concerned it must try to save lives as far as possible so that I can say the Minister will try his utmost to put up those signs wherever he can , even if it is at the beginning and end of the urban area.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Surely , Mr. Chairman , I don't think the hon. member really means what he wants to know here . It is an offence because this spitting business spreads disease .
Clause 102 put and agreed to. On Clause 103
Clause 98 put and agreed to. Clauses
99
and
100
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I am just carrying over an idea to this section from the previous one. Have you borne in mind the fact that even in the location - shall I say a rehabilitated location? cars may well travel through those locations at 70 m.p.h. Are you contemplating putting up speed limit signs in those locations ?
put and agreed to.
On Clause 101
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, here it is presumed that the road traffic sign was erected and displayed in accordance with the statutory provisions. I would like the hon. Minister to explain just one point. If a road traffic sign has been put up in a manner contrary to statutory provisions is the motorist obliged to obey what it might have been intended to convey to him had it complied with the statutory provisions ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , Mr. Chairman, wherever there is a concentration of buildings and houses. MR. ZIBI : Did I understand the Minister to say right in No -Man's land , in the veld , if you drive at 71 m.p.h. you have committed an offence ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think out of good sense the motorist is obliged to obey the traffic sign as though it was in order , because if he did not he might have an accident. I think when he is charged he stands a good chance of winning his case because he could prove that the sign was not in order , but out of good sense and being a resonable man ...
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: If you are caught , you have committed an offence . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , if one is discovered contravening the law.
Clause 103 put and agreed to. MR. GUZANA : That is an ephemeral personality - a resonable man.
On Clause 104
MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I need an explanation here , in regard to the prescription of a speed limit . Say I have a new Mercedes and the Minister has an old Zephyr , will the Minister not allow me to travel at more than 70 m.p.h. in my Mercedes and in his old Zephyr he can also travel at this speed ?
Clause 101 put and agreed to. On Clause 102 MR . GUZANA : Now , Mr. Minister , I think we did exchange words over this point because my submission was that a speed limit sign should be put up when a person enters an urban area , irrespective of whether or not there are buildings , for the approaches to an urban area may well be open and if there is no speed limit sign one may find oneself driving within an urban area at a speed higher that 35 m.p.h. Why can't it be obligatory on a local authority to put up this speed limit sign?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This is an enabling clause . For instance , we have some Government vehicles which have 50 or 60 horse power and we have vans too , and it has become necessary lately to curtail the speed of these vans . I want to allay any fears in the hon. member's mind that nothing will tamper with 373 .
their rights. abling clause .
As I said, this clause is an en-
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is the hard part.
Clause 104 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA: I want to know if the roadway includes the shoulders .
Clause 105 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The road is one hundred feet wide or more and the roadway is the trafficable part of the road. I hope that will satisfy you. You never drive on the shoulders.
On Clause 106 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think there should be this observation with regard to this section - that local authorities, in their desire to raise funds , instal parking meters almost in every conceivable parking place in towns. The result is that people working in the heart of town have to leave their cars far away from their place of employment in order to avoid parking their cars opposite parking meters . I think it is necessary that, whilst local authorities are empowered to put up parking meters , they should not do so unnecessarily merely for the raising of funds , but should make it possible for people to find parking places within their area of jurisdiction which are free .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to know from the hon. the Minister of Roads what he means when he says this Bill is taken from the Cape Provincial Ordinance. In the section dealing with parking it appears that no one is allowed to park his vehicle on the kerb. Another provision is that no one is allowed to park within a certain distance from the summit of a blind rise . Where is the clause providing for this. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , it is true that this Bill is based on the Cape Ordinance and all the other provinces joined in making this single Act. I think we have a provision of that nature in our Bill but I cannot tell you what section it is . If it is not there , at any rate it will be covered by the regulations .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I agree with the hon. member .
Clause 106 put and agreed to. Clauses
107
to
115 put
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I think this provision should have been made either in I do not see any other section 115 or 116. section in which it can be included.
and agreed to.
On Clause 116 MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the explanatory note refers to the shoulder of the public road outside an urban area, where parking is permitted provided that no part of the vehicle is nearer than three feet from the edge of the roadway of the road. I wonder if the hon. Minister would just explain that, please ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Minister says if it is not there it will be done by regulation.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , the actual roadway is the hard surface on the There is always a portion that tarred roads . is gravelled close to the hard surface , and sometimes tarred as well , but it is not the same That is section as the tarred surface itself. the portion on the verge of the road on the left and righthandside of the actual roadway.
On Clause 119
Clause 116 put and agreed to . Clauses
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, there is something still worrying me . For instance , under 119 (b) you get the phrase "and on the condition of the roadway" . We understood the hon. Minister to explain the difference between the road and the roadway. We have accepted that. Now, how do you determine the road and the roadway where you do not have a tarred surface ?
MR. GUZANA: Is that the shoulder ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes .. MR . GUZANA: Then you say that parking is permitted there provided no part of the vehicle is nearer than three feet from the edge of the roadway of the road.
117 and 118 put and agreed to .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : My definition when I described it for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was that the road was one hundred feet wide and the roadway is the trafficable The same formula applies part of the road. here.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The shoulder of the road is the verge of the road that is to the left and right of the actual road .
MR. RAJUILI : We have accepted that explanation in so far as a tarred road is concerned . That is clear. You do have some ten or twelve feet portion and a three-foot portion. That is clear, but on the ground roads there is sometimes just a sledge portion.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , but it says from the edge of the roadway of the road . I want an explanation of that.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I said it is the trafficable portion.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Well , that is a technical term .
MR . RAJUILI : But what do you mean by that? MR. GUZANA : A technical term refers to something. That is what I want to know. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think you have the gist of what I said.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where you can drive your car. MR . RAJUILI: You can drive even on the grass.
MR. GUZANA : No , I have not. Is the roadway the road plus the shoulders or what?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No , sometimes
374.
there are dongas .
and its retention and storage ?
MR. RAJUILI : Now where you have done so well with the other kind of road . . .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I do believe that to a certain extent it would be harsh , but at the same time one has to reckon with the inconvenience it would cause to the general public. I do think that the owner of such vehicle should do all in his power to get it removed from the roadway. If he shows to the satisfaction of the authorities that he has tried his best , I think consideration would be given to him.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The roadway is the trafficable part of the road. MR. RAJUILI : Minister.
I am looking at the hon.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , I have tried to explain as much as possible. Even in a common road which is not tarred , the gravel roads , the trafficable portion is very distinct. No one can make a mistake about it. That is the roadway. It also applies to gravel roads . The trafficable part isthe gravelled part. The shoulder may or may not be gravelled . The rest is the road reserve with grass on it, or it is unchanged veld.
MR. RAJUILI : Would putting it six feet offthe road be all right? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , I think so. Clause 131 put and agreed to. On Clause 132 MR. G.S. DANA: Would the hon. Minister please explain a little further in regard to (c)?
MR. RAJUILI : Now, the last one is - we have queer roads in our country, particularly in the Transkei and you find a road has been made some time back and you find two areas where the wheel runs and the grass grows in between.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is quite plain, hon. member.
MR. DANA: It is not plain . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And it forms the mane of the horse .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is permissible for people drawing sledges across a road or over a bridge to haul those sledges over a bridge or across the road by the shortest possible route .
MR. RAJUILI : Yes , the hon. Minister describes it so well . Now, what would be the road in that type of road?
MR. DANA: I would like to know whether the person using the sledge may not use the road, apart from just crossing it.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I have nothing further to add , Mr. Chairman.
Clause 119 put and agreed to. Clause 120 put and agreed to. On Clause 121
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, suppose a vehicle is so manufactured that it does make a noise? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This section is provided to obviate such noises . The owner must see to it that he adjusts it. MR. GUZANA : He cannot because it is made that way . I would understand if you said those which have become defective and are allowed to continue the noise . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is what it says here.
Clause 121 put and agreed to . Clauses
122 to
130
put
and agreed to.
On Clause 131 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, with regard to sub-section 131 (2) it is provided that a vehicle left on a public road for a continuous period of more than seven days is deemed to have been Sometimes , owing to financial abandoned. exigencies one is unable to redeem one's car and this authority to remove the car and store it incurs added expense , and then there is the lien which the local authority is given over that car or vehicle , and the ultimate sale of such vehicle. Is this not being harsh on people who might still be seeking to redeem their abandoned car, without finding themselves faced with a bill incurred by the local authority in its removal of the car
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : It is prohibited for sledges to be drawn along a road because they drag the gravel off the road. (Interjections) Sledges are amongst the worst road-breakers in existence . Sooner or later action will have to be taken against them. For the present leniency There would be no point in will be observed. constructing roads and maintaining them if sledges are allowed to undo the work that has been done, but I hope the hon. member heard what I said when I said that for the present leniency will be observed . MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as far as the question of leniency is concerned I am not too sure where I am . May I refer to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . Now, if you go to Willowvale from Shixini there is a portion about two miles where there is no road whatsoever - not even for a sledge . The road is covered with stones on both sides and in the circumstances , therefore , what must be done , because the people must have a sledge to bring home their harvest? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This is covered by what I said - that leniency would be observed .
MR. W. Z. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman , I wish to refer to the hon. the Minister of Roads. He will remember that trees are being cut down in the forests and loaded on to sledges . Do we have to load these on our heads and carry them across the road? We want wood to make fires and we are told we must use scotch- carts , but it is not everyone who owns a scotch- cart . In the forests beautiful roads have been constructed , but how are we to getour sledges into the forests if they are not allowed to travel onthe roads ? I wish to say that you know perfectly well that in the villages we require wood for fires and other 375.
purposes and if you don't allow sledges to be used on the roads, how are we going to get the wood out of the forests ? I would like the hon. Minister for the time being to send a circular letter to all the people in charge of the forests to say that for the time being they are allowed .
MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, referring to this section (2 ) (a) and (b) , say my car is at a standstill because of some trouble and I ask somebody to sit behind the driver's wheel so that the engine keeps running, and in the meantime I open the bonnet to put right what I think is wrong with the car. How will I know how drunk this person is, for you refer to the percentage of alcohol in the blood? How will I know the percentage of alcohol in his bloodstream ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think this can be done by negotiation with the Department of Agriculture. All we are concerned with is the construction and maintenance of roads for public traffic.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: This is the clause which the hon. member should be aware ofwhen he asks someone to sit behind the driver's wheel, because if he places somebody who has had a considerable amount of liquor he will cause unnecessary harm to him. Over and above that he should know that when he is going along with someone in his car he should know from the smell of his breath that he has had intoxicating liquor.
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , may Imake this comparison. We are at Emjanyana and we cut our wood at Nkobongo forest. To whom can we refer at the moment to have our wood taken from the forest? THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Would the members please direct their requests to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Clause 132 put and agreed to. Clauses
MR . BUSAKWE: How will he know the percentage ?
133 and 134 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The percentage will be decided by the medical examiner.
On Clause 135
MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , there are several people who have taken drink in this House and no one is aware that they are drunk. I will not know that the person who is with me in the All I want to know is : Who is car is drunk. going to test the percentage of alcohol in his bloodstream ? Must I, the owner of the car ? The mere smell does not tell you what percentage he has had. If you take a tot you will still have the smell, and ifyou have six tots it will be the same. What I want to know is , how will you decide the percentage ?
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , according to this section, if you meet with an accident the law says you must stop and wait there . Now in the case of a pedestrian who is knocked down and who could be saved by being taken to a hospital, would you be breaking the law then? The town may be very far and it may take a long time for the police to arrive at the scene of the accident. It sometimes takes a whole day for the police to get to the scene . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : In exceptional cases I think that would be permissible , particularly if all other means of assistance have been exhausted , like sending to the nearest shop to telephone and so on. Any person who is injured can be removed at once and taken to hospital. There is no need to wait for the police to come before a life can be saved.
THE MINISTER OF be no trouble in a case has mentioned as long wheel does not drive accident.
ROADS : I think there will such as the hon. member as the person behind the the car and cause an
MR. GUZANA: But when he sits behind that wheel and has alcohol in his body to the minimum of .15 per cent, then he is guilty of an offence .
Clause 135 put and agreed to. On clause 136. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , there may well be damage to a car which is as a result of an accident involving no one else but the driver of the vehicle himself, and here it is required that a report be made to the police even if the damage is not extensive . Why should that be necessary if the damage is not extensive , because there is already an obligation on the driver of the vehicle to report an accident to the police ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : But the owner of the car will be there to look after it.
MR. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman , when we go on a bus and we find that the driver is intoxicated , may we know what we must do if the driver refuses to stop driving the vehicle , whereas we can see that the man is intoxicated?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This provision is intended mainly to catch the hit-and- run driver who has often got away with manslaughter. I do not think that would inconvenience the driver in any way, but provision must be made in the law so that this man can be found.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is incumbent upon the passengers to report the driver. MR. LUFEFENI : Where are they going to They may notice it on the way to report? Baziya and who will be bold enough to confirm that the driver was that day under the influence of liquor ? That will only be realised the day after and by that time the man will be sober.
MR. GUZANA: Don't the police usually circularize the garages ifthere has been a hit-and- run accident so that the garages are informed?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : They do .
Clause 140 put and agreed to.
Clause 136 put and agreed to.
The debate was adjourned .
Clauses
137 to
139
put
House Resumed
and agreed to.
On Clause 140
The Deputy Chairman reported progress .
376.
Minister's reply?
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , once more I appeal to the Chief Whips in regard to the conduct of members of this Assembly. Members are in the habit of just coming into the Assembly and leaving immediately afterwards , not to return. The order of a roll call makes the members complain, but I will be compelled to order a roll call and I will take the members by surprise . I will not tell them when I am going to order a roll call .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The reply is "yes " , and I may go further to say that the Department has already gone very far in that direction.
QUESTION NO. 86 . Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of Education :"(a) Whether it is permissible for those communities who want to establish Lower Primary Schools to cater for young children who find it difficult on account of distance to attend the Higher Primary Schools ?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 13th June , 1967. TUESDAY , 13TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
(b) If so, whose responsibility will it be to pay teachers in these Lower Primary Schools ?
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
(c) Whether the Principal of the Higher Primary School in that area will also be principal of the Lower Primary School ?"
ANNOUNCEMENT
REPLY : (a) Yes , such communities must however first apply to the Department for approval and registration as no school may be commenced without such prior approval. In such cases the Department first consults with the regional authorities for comments and recommendations .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave your indulgence ? I would like to make an announcement. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been advised that Paramount Chief Sabata is not too well and he has had to be admitted to the Sir Henry Elliot Hospital. He is occupying Ward 3 at that hospital . He will therefore be unable to attend regularly and we hope he will recover soon.
QUESTIONS
(b) If approved , the Department will pay the salaries of teachers in these schools .
QUESTION NO. 84. Mr. W.M. Madikizela asked the Minister of the Interior : -
(c) No. If it is an entirely new school , separated from the nearest Higher Primary School , it will have its own principal.
"Whether the Municipality of Umtata issued Hawker's Licences to Africans who apply for them in its area of jurisdiction? If not, why not?"
QUESTION NO. 87 : Mr. O.O.H. Mpondo asked the Minister of Justice :"(a) Since the introduction of Proclamation R400 of 1960 , how many people have been deported from the Emigrant Tembuland Region?
REPLY : The matter has been referred to the Municipality of Umtata for the required information, but a reply will not be available until later in the week after the matter has been placed before the monthly meeting of the Town Council , which will take place during the course of this week .
(b) What are the names of the people affected ? (c) To what part of the country were individual deportees sent?
QUESTION NO. 85 Mr. W.M. Madikizela asked the Minister of Education :"(i) Whether the attention of the Minister has been drawn to an article which appeared recently in the Daily Dispatch relative to the Ngangelizwe Night School? (ii) If so , whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard ? (iii) If not, why not ?" REPLY: (i) Yes. (ii) and (iii ) As this matter has been receiving the attention of the Department and as there is every reason to believe that the Ngangelizwe Night School will be placed on a sound footing in the near future , there is no need to make any statement now. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Education, are we to understand that the school will be recognized and will be assisted as all other night schools in the near future ? Would that be the correct impression to be gained from the hon.
(d) What crime or crimes were committed by each person to warrant his or her deportation? (e ) Before each person was served with a deportation order , was his case tried at a properly constituted court of law? (f) How many deportees ' homes were destroyed in the Emigrant Tembuland Region?
(g) How many cattle , horses , sheep or goats were confiscated by chiefs or the Paramount Chief from the deportees in Emigrant Tembuland ?"
REPLY : (a) Proclamation No. R400 of 1960 makes no provision for the deportation of persons. (b) - (g) fall away . QUESTION NO. 88 : Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"(a) How much do the Ministers ' drivers earn 377.
a day, a week, or a month? (b) What travelling and subsistence allowance do they get when they have to travel with Ministers ?"
to Lusikisiki , Port St. Johns and Libode , plus one to Viedgesville and Coffee Bay , plus goods vehicles from Umtata to points between and to, Engcobo , Port St. Johns , Lusikisiki , Flagstaff, Kokstad and Tsolo . (d) 20 drivers were involved , in 50 accidents . (e ) 6 Drivers were dismissed , two for being responsible for several serious accidents , one for consuming liquor whilst on duty, and three for ticket irregularities .
REPLY: (a) Ministers ' drivers are appointed on the salary scale R366x42-660-720 per annum. In addition they receive a special allowance of R10 per month. Drivers on the notch R366 per annum will receive R40 R50 per month . (b) Depending on the notch attained on the salary scale they are paid subsistence and transport allowance of either 48 cents or 72 cents per full 24 hours and 2 cents or 4 cents per hour in respect of every full hour in excess of 24 hours they are away from their head office .
QUESTION NO. 91 : Mr. A.G. Sasa asked the Minister of the Interior:"What is the correct procedure relating to transfers in respect of an allotment in surveyed areas where an heir -apparent has absconded and his deceased parents have left behind other members of their family?" REPLY : The procedure followed is that the heir apparent is given TWO years to apply for the deceased registered holder's land . If the magistrate has satisfied himself that the male person entitled to succeed has absconded , he gives notice that that person should lodge his claim within THREE months of date of such notice . If, within the said three months , no such claim be received , the Secretary for the Interior has the authority to re -allot the land in question and to transfer the title -deed thereof to any landless member of the family of the deceased registered holder in accordance with the table of succession contained in schedule " C " to Proclamation No. 142 of 1910.
QUESTION NO. 89: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "(a) Is the honourable Minister aware that as from the 1st January , 1967 , African Stock Inspectors have been deprived of their travelling allowances ? (b) If so, what has been done to supplement these deductions ? and (c) If so , what was the reason for this ?" REPLY : (a) Stock Inspectors have not been deprived of their allowances. In the past Stock Inspectors had the option to register horses and to be paid commuted transport allowances for the use of their horses on official duty OR to use their privately-owned motor vehicles and be paid for the mileage done on official duty. This arrangement proved to be unsatisfactory and uneconomical to both the officer and the Department. Stock Inspectors Grade II are now all issued with Government vehicles and Stock Inspectors Grade III, who only have to cover relatively short distances are paid commuted transport allowances for the use of their privately - owned horses on official duty. (b) See (a) above. (c) Because the system was unsatisfactory for the Department as well as the officials concerned.
MR. SASA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. Minister , if the person in question be a married man and the wife is still alive , what will the wife do in the circumstances ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Please table the question .
QUESTION NO. 92 : Mr. A.G. Sasa asked the Minister of the Interior :"Could the Minister of the Interior request the Republican Government to make it possible for the hospital ambulances fetching sick people to reach their places of residence where roads are suitable. "
QUESTION NO . 90 : Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior :"(a) How many Africans were trained to drive Government Buses ? (b) How many are employed ? (c) Which routes are they working? (d) How many were involved in accidents ?
REPLY : According to information obtained by my Department, hospital ambulances do fetch sick people from their places of residence where such places can be reached by a travellable route . Where there is no suitable road to the sick person's place , the person is required to meet the ambulance at the closest accessible point , usually a trading station. Naturally , ambulances cannot be expected to travel across roadless terrain although they sometimes do this where possible in cases of critical illness .
(e) How many were dismissed and reasons for dismissal ?'' FURTHER REPLY TO QUESTION NO. 90- PARTIALLY REPLIED TO ON 2.5.67. In my reply to this question on 2.5.67 I stated that the required information was being obtained from the System Manager of Railways , East London, and that it would be supplied as soon as possible . The information has now been furnished telegraphically by the System Manager , and is as follows :(a) 25 (b) 19. (c) Routes covered occasion the use of three passenger buses operating from Umtata
ELECTORAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Electoral Law Amendment Bill. In view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , I now table a recommendation by the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 that the Bill be considered by the 378.
Assembly. I therefore move that the Bill be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. The Bill was read a first time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The second reading will be on Wednesday , 14th June , 1967 , Mr. Chairman. TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House sits in committee to consider the Road Traffic Bill.
of giving a lower sentence than prescribed . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : In all cases the presiding officers are always allowed to use their discretion. In cases where the maximum fine is R200 or R400, as the case may be , the magistrate sometimes fines a man R30 or R40, depending upon the circumstances and depending also on the gravity of the case . Sometimes it is a first offence where the offender is warned and cautioned. MR. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman , the hon. Minister did not understand my question at all. The section says that the person may be suspended for such period, not being less than six months , as it may deem fit. Now, underline "not being less than six months" . My question is: Why deprive the court of its discretion? Why hasn't the court the power to fine a man less than six months ? That is why I say why not put the maximum fine as in other sections .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Minister has replied fully to this question.
Agreed to.
OP POSITION MEMBERS : No.
House in Committee
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the question that clause 147 stand part of the Bill . Those in favour?
The debate was resumed. Clauses
141
to
146
put and agreed to .
On Clause 147
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No , Mr. Chairman, we are not going to be treated like that. We want an explanation on this clause .
MR. L.A. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman, in section (1) (c) I would like to know why the hon. Minister has preferred to put the minimum and not the maximum as in section 140 where he puts the maximum fine . In this six months ' fine which is the minimum I can understand a case where the court may find that it should impose a lighter fine than six months and make it three or four months .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister says he has nothing more to say. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman .. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Sit down, hon. member Mr. Guzana . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I request that we be given an opportunity to get an explanation.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is only fair that this matter is left to the discretion of the presiding officer, because where a misdemeanour is very serious a maximum penalty is prescribed. The minimum penalty does not apply in this case.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me - tellers , please.
MR. LUWACA: I asked a question and we want an explanation. The hon. Minister did not understand my question .
MR . LUWACA : Mr. Chairman , please will the hon. Minister explain. I don't understand it. You say the court is forced to give a minimum fine of six months as provided in this Bill . I understand such a case where the court finds extenuating circumstances and that minimum So my fine should be three or four months . question is: Why does the Minister prefer in this particular case , unlike the other cases under section 140 , to put a minimum fine instead of a maximum ? The court has no discretion
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, before we vote I wanted to say something.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have already decided . Sit down. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, we call for a division.
Clause 147 put and agreed to by 53 votes to 33 after a division as follows :NOES .
AYES .
Acting Chief D. Gobidolo Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngabeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila
379.
Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief M. Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess A. Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief M. Mapassa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enoch Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C. S. Mda .
Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota. 2. R.B. Msengana .
here ? It may just be reported to him that the licence is lost and that is all . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think it is enough to say "shall be returned to the person entitled thereto".
On Clause 148 MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in 148 (4) it is provided that the licence or permit be retained by the registrar or clerk of the court which has ordered a suspension and returned on the expiration of the period of the suspension to the owner . Have we got a guarantee that such licences as are retained by the registrar or a clerk of the court will be kept in a safe place ? Alternatively, if they do get lost who bears the expense of having a licence issued to the person entitled to it? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : There is always every assurance that the licence is returned to the owner and that it will be kept safely. MR . GUZANA : I have known exhibits disappearing from the court and even from the store-room , and a similar thing may happen to one's licence which is held there. Who will meet the expense of replacing it?
Clause 148 put and agreed to . On Clause 149 MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , in this section I would like to know from the hon. Minister why he stipulated the maximum fine , whereas in section 147 , which resulted in a division, he stipulated the minimum fine . I would like to know why he does not have uniformity and merely state the maximum , for he has been constantly talking about uniformity. Why does he not follow a uniform policy here to give the court the power to determine what fine to impose ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I shall start off by replying as I had intended to, because I see that this is reverting to the same question which caused a division . In that section 147 ...
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As the hon. the Minister of Roads has pointed out, due care will be taken that such licences do not get lost and if such an exigency happens as the loss of such licences while in keeping of the official charged with the duty of keeping such licences , the hon. members are assured that the owners of such licences will not be put to the expense
OP POSITION MEMBER : Out of order ! are past that. (Laughter)
We
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , the question touches on 147. That section refers to the suspension of a licence and gives the minimum period of suspension . The reason why that is done is because of the seriousness of any person found driving a motor vehicle under the influence of liquor , because such person is not a danger to himself only, he is a danger to his passengers , to the oncoming traffic and to every other person, and therefore it is thought befit-
of getting new licences .
MR. L.T. MAZWI: In that same respect, Mr. Chairman, what assurance is there that the owner of a licence will be able to get his licence returned to him because there is nothing 380.
MR. ZIBI : I want an explanation from the hon . the Minister of Roads .
ting that a minimum period of suspension should be stipulated to tie down any judicial officer to that minimum and , in accordance with the gravity of any particular case , to allow him to rise up even to the skies . That is why that is the case in reference to section 147. Now, in this particular section we now follow uniformity and the general procedure in placing the minimum and the maximum fine.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This is quite clear , Mr. Chairman. We are making this law to provide that where there is a doubt of the weight of the vehicle it must be weighed on a weighbridge. MR. GUZANA: Doesn't the clause say that evidence of the weight given as having been weighed on a weighbridge shall be presumed to be correct until the contrary is proved?
MR. LUWACA: Arising from the reply to section 147 , in that section the minimum is laid down as six months . Is it because the presiding officer will not have the discretion on the face of the evidence given to decide whether the culprit should be punished only for three or four months ? That is the explanation I wanted which the hon. Minister would not give me.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes .
MR . GUZANA: Well , you are giving us something different. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That is what I meant to say .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , if the man is found guilty he must get at least the minimum sentence .
Clause 152 put and agreed to. Clause 149 put and agreed to. Clauses
153 and 154 put and agreed to.
Clause 150 put and agreed to. On Clause 155 On Clause 151 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, this is rather a harsh provision , I think, where a car will be presumed to have been driven by the owner until the contrary is proved , as a car may well be driven other than by the owner in given circumstances . I take it that from the practical point of view the traffic officer will inquire who was driving the vehicle and apprehend that person, and he shall be charged for the traffic offence . But I am worried about a situation where there is no one next to the car which is parked , perhaps , incorrectly and the traffic officer is too lazy to take the trouble to make inquiries and takes the registration number of the car . Then the owner is charged who was not responsible for parking it incorrectly. In effect this means that the owner will have to be brought to the court, prove that he was not driving the car and then again there will be a search for the person who was driving the car when it was incorrectly parked. I think this is a loophole that might be used rather to the disadvantage and inconvenience of car owners if they are going to be presumed to have been driving the vehicle if it happens to be found anywhere after an accident or an offence.
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, I don't quite understand what is meant here. It says : "Where in any prosecution under this Act it is alleged that an offence was committed on a public road, in an urban area , such road shall be presumed to be a public road in an urban area until the contrary is proved . " I cannot understand that. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I think it is quite plain, because perhaps a certain street at the back of a town may not be regarded as a public road. This is a provision to counteract any other thought that it is not a public road. For instance , a road may be used by the public but may not have been declared a public road.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Your definition of a public road does not seem to require the road to be gazetted or declared a public road. According to the definition a public road is "any road, street or thoroughfare or any other place (whether a thoroughfare or not) which is commonly used by the public or section thereof or to which the public or section thereof has a right of access". You see ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, while there is every sympathy with the owner whose car may have been found parked in a wrong way there is no other way which the law-makers can take because it is only the owner of a car who can prove that it is not himself who was driving and then it is according to the discretion of the magistrate to decide what to do .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I was merely trying to satisfy the hon. member .
MR. GUZANA : Yes, but you are confusing him . Clause 151 put and agreed to. On Clause 152
MR. GUZANA : Are you suggesting that it is in the discretion although it has been shown that the owner was not driving, or in his discretion the judicial officer will punish the owner?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in the circumstances , as we have no weighbridge at present , will the law be suspended ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : No. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It tells you that it will be presumed .
MR. GUZANA : Well , what do you mean ?
MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I want an explanation.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The owner of the car is the only person who may know who was driving the car.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The law won't be suspended . That is the answer.
MR. GUZANA : Or the person who was in lawful possession of the car. My car may be in 381 .
the
the garage and the mechanic may take it out to test it. You say the owner must prove , but I may not be able to tell who was driving the car at the time. It was the mechanic who was in lawful possession at the time.
owner ,
ask him
not to reassemble it.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : To what extent can he go in dismantling a car ? There must be a limit. What parts can he dismantle ? Only those parts referring to the roadworthiness of the car ?
Clause 155 put and agreed to . On Clause 156
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , he cannot dismantle the engine.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : I want to know, Mr. Chairman, what is the work of the police as regards motor cars and traffic.
MR. BUSAKWE : What is there in these clauses to protect the owner to the effect that the engine will not be dismantled ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Section 159.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: A car whose engine is defective will not move , but a car with defective brakes will move and not stop when you want it to stop . (Laughter)
MR. BUSAKWE: I am referring to 156 , not 159 . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The duties are given in 159. Is it motivation you want or the duties of the police officer?
MR. GUZANA: The phrase is "dismantle such vehicle ".
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The persons who are charged with this duty will , on suspicion that certain parts of the car are not working properly, inspect such parts , not the whole vehicle .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : If any person purpots that he acted as a policer officer , an inspector of licences , an examiner of vehicles or an examiner for drivers ' licences , it shall be prima facie evidence of his appointment and This provision does not authority so to act. apply to a prosecution on a charge relating to personation. Does that satisfy the hon. member?
MR. GUZANA : It says " shall dismantle any of the mechanism or working parts of any motor vehicle and, if he does so dismantle such vehicle , he shall reassemble the dismantled mechanism or parts . . . "
MR . BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, the police will cause us trouble. Perhaps a policeman tells you that your car is wrongly parked or he wants to test it. I have three cars and I know that they were damaged by the police . He pulled on the handbrake and drove with the brake on and then he caused me a lot of expense and told me that my car was not in order. I would like an explanation.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That refers to the parts suspected to be defective . MR . GUZANA : Is it not better that this should be done in a garage rather than give the power to the man in the street? The traffic officer stops you in the street and decides to dismantle the parts of the car which are suspected to be defective ...
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : You are quite free to take action, because you are a citizen.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He is not a mechanic in a garage.
Clause 156 put and agreed to .
MR. GUZANA : He hasn't the tools to do it there in the street.
Clause 157 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Naturally, no man with all his senses will go and dismantle the car in the street when he has no tools .
AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the Road Traffic Bill was resumed.
MR. C. DIKO: They are usually senseless , these people. That I know. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That I do not know. They usually know their job .
Clause 158 put and agreed to. On Clause 159
MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , Ifind this may be done on the road when you are travelling. How does a motorist come to know that the officer concerned is qualified ? Is he to produce a certificate to show that he has qualified , or do you just look at his uniform ?
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , there is a small thing we wish to be made clear in (1) (a) . There is a provision that a car can be dismantled and put together again if I so request. I would like to know what the idea of this is .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The law precludes him from doing any such thing if he is not qualified .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The reason for this provision is nothing other than road safety. More often than not you find the road filled with a number of crocks - either with brakes not working, wheel alignment of the car our of order, the steering wheel pulling one way when the driver pulls the other. This is inserted to protect the public from being endangered . As you will note , stress is also put on the fact that the person who will do the dismantling will be a qualified mechanic and it also says that he will reassemble the dismantled car , unless you ,
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : He will be in uniform or if he is not in uniform you ought to presume he is an officer. OPPOSITION MEMBER : Presume ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , that is what the law says . 382.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He will produce a certificate if he is not in uniform .
MR . RAJUILI : But your law provides that they must tamper with the car .
MR. RAJUILI: We are accustomed to having these plain-clothes people for other things , not for stopping cars to inspect them , so now what would happen in the case of an officer qualified, say, to do this inspecting and he tampers with the car and it cannot go? Who is to be responsible for getting the car to where it can be repaired?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The traffic officers are coming and they will be highly qualified. MR. GUZANA : One usually chooses the mechanic to work on one's car and we pick them because of their training. We do not want novices from the technical college tinkering with our cars.
MR. T.H. BUBU: In other words , who is going to be responsible for inefficient work on the part of the officer after he has reassenbled it?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think I have answered the question. I have said the car will not be dismantled entirely.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The officer will be responsible for any damage he causes to your car, because no officer will undertake to dismantle a car if he does not know how to put it together. Over and above that , I do not think there has ever been such a thing where an officer dismantles a car. I have already told you this is a replica of the Republican law.
MR. BUSAKWE : Will you not ask the people who put this Bill before the House to withdraw this clause?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shall we pass on? OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. MR. BUBU: Is there a clause which protects the owner against inefficient work on the part of the officer , or from his mischief? They are human beings and can be mischievous .
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, this is the last point for explanation , Sir. As I say, we have experience of these officers and if they do not find any defective parts in the car they get annoyed and try to find something. Now, what in the event of his finding nothing wrong and then he tries the brakes (they generally go for brakes ) and tries the handbrake and burns out your linings ? That is what they do - they drive it for almost two miles sometimes.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman , this is an old provision. The purpose of inserting this is to enable the officer concerned to ascertain and find out what is wrong with the vehicle . The purpose is not to effect repairs on the car in question. If, say, after dismantling your brakes he finds out that the master cylinder , for instance , is finished he will tell you so. He will then reassemble it as it was , without putting in a new master cylinder. He puts back your old and wornout master cylinder
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think they can have recourse to a court of law and also they can refer the matter to higher authorities .
MR. BUSAKWE: By dismantling this car , is he trying to put it in order or is he trying to make it worse ? If he is putting the car into a roadworthy condition who is going to pay for the work? In the past the traffic officer would tell the owner of the car what part was defective and order him to take it to the nearest garage to be put right. This question of dismantling the car while you are travelling, if he puts it together and does not do it properly, who is going to put it right ? Or was he dismantling it so that it should not move any further? We are asking this for the sake of uniformity, because the law is not your law. (Laughter) It is the law of the Republic and you are putting a rubber stamp to it. Whether we can understand it or not, you don't bother, but you are asking us to put a rubber stamp to something that you yourself cannot help . I ask the question now : Who is going to put my car into order again ?
MR. BUSAKWE : And no more brake fluid.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Of course he will see that the brake fluid is replaced , and he will tell you to go to the nearest garage and have that worn-out part repaired . You know that when the traffic officer has to point out defects in your car they are generally listed . He dismantles in order to be able to list also that which needs to be repaired . MR . RAJUILI : The hon. the Minister of Education is bringing into this affair matters that are not connected . He talks of master cylinders and the brake fluid running out and he does not realise that from that time the situation would be very bad. Now, it sometimes happens that you have your car serviced at a garage or, let me say first that while they are busy dismantling the master cylinder (a job which takes not less that two hours ) other cars are passing which are more defective than yours and this traffic officer in his beautiful uniform is trying to make himself a mechanic on the road. Anyway, let me leave that because whenever White-driven cars pass they never Anyway, when you have had your car stop. serviced and you meet a traffic officer on the road, he has been there for hours not stopping anyone , and he sees a black-faced driver and he stops him . As I say, my car has just been serviced and OK'd.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, I have tried to explain as much as possible in a previous question which was related to this one. As I say, I do not think it would happen that any officer would dismantle a car without being able to put it together again. I know that traffic officers would point out the fault to the owner of the car and tell him to go to the nearest garage to have it fixed. I do not think there will be any trouble as far as we are concerned in the Transkei . OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Why? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Because our traffic officers will not do that.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It may not be OK because it has recently been serviced.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Who are your traffic officers ?
MR. RAJUILI: Anyway, he keeps me there for two hours and I claim him for keeping me
383.
two hours.
Does the law allow for that?
about these matters lest the motor-driver in the Transkei rises in revolt against the Government. Let us hope that these powers will be exercised with benevolence , and that nobody will suffer hardship by reason of a provision which seeks to ensure the safety of the public travelling in vehicles .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , all laws allow for that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You cannot blame a man for doing his duty. You know that.
Clause 159 put and agreed to. MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , in this section under (b), referring to a weighbridge , if I take my lorry to Butterworth and have it fully loaded with my belongings and on the way to Umtata a traffic officer stops me and asks me to have this load weighed, where should it be weighed? What steps have you taken to provide for the weighing of such a load ?
On Clause 160 MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, I am very much worried about these sections referring to motor-cars because I have spent the greater part of my life in cars . I stopped rearing pigs. Under (2 ) I would like the hon. Minister to motivate, because where will my car be driven to and in what circumstances , and where shall I , the owner of the car , be when the policeman is driving the car?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He will tell you where to go. MR. BUSAKWE : Where ?
To East London? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : This is a provisional section in case the driver is unwilling to drive his car. Perhaps he may be under the influence . (Interjections ) I said perhaps you are unwilling to drive the car.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: To the Butterworth station or to the Umtata station. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I wish to tell the hon. member that whoever is employed as a traffic officer is generally accepted as a reasonable man. If you are within the borders of the Transkei I don't at all believe that they will tell you in the vicinity of Umtata to go all the way to East London to be weighed . I would ask the hon. member not to worry himself so much about this because it will never happen to him.
MR. BUSAKWE : Where ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : To where the examiner wants you to go. It may be to the depot. They usually have depots . ( Interjections )
MR. L.A. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman , in the same section the hon. Minister shows that he has lived all his life in Tsolo. He looks at all these things as though he is living inside a bottle without anything touching him. Now I will state him a case about the police . He does not know the police because he is Mr. Mabandla who lives in Tsolo. I know a man who took all the trouble to buy two or threes horses and four mules in Cape Town. (Interjections ) He met a policeman who said they must be taken all the way back to Cape Town. Now, I have known cases when you are at Butterworth and a police boy tells you to take your things right back to East London, and that happens often unless you fortunately happen to deal with an old policeman of about 40 or 50 , so the hon . Minister does not know how much chance he is taking with these people. I think at this juncture he should really explain. He has a tendency to say that such- andsuch a thing will not happen and he will not be there because he will not be hanging around like earrings. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. Minister realises how touchy these provisions are and the members have been speaking from personal , practical experience rather than from theory.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Surely hon. members will realise that a person who wants to test a car may not be able to do so without driving it. It says here " in the execution of his duties ". Now, if at all an officer is outside Umtata and finds you there and suspects that your car is defective and tests it, he would not be executing his duties if he drove it to Butterworth. That is too ridiculous . He tests it by driving it. MR. RAJUILI : May I find out when this car is driven, or whatever is happening, whether it is being examined or tested , need you, the owner of the car , be inside while it is being tested ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , you should be. MR . RAJUILI : No , Sir , this is what they do , and I can assure you they can be very discourteous. I am saying so because you yourself are saying you are dragging this dragon, this hydra Bill, into the Transkei . You don't know how bad it is . You own up it is just because it comes from the Republic . ( Laughter) Now , they generally take you out and even your wife must · get out, and they take your car THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You can refuse to get out. MR. RAJUILI: I am telling the Minister what happens .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about the one who talked of sending donkeys and mules back to Cape Town?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am telling you what you should do.
MR. GUZANA : It is a fact that the law has been exercised in a manner that is unfair to the motorist and it will really be a new feature of traffic officers in the Transkei if they were to exercise these powers with a certain amount of benevolence . I think we have indicated to you our reservations regarding these provisions under section 159 - that we do hope that your traffic officers , or whoever they are , will bear these in mind and that they will be circularized
MR. RAJUILI: I want to know what happens . Should the owner of the car not be given a chance to get in and see what is being done to his car?
car
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The owner ofthe should at all costs be in the vehicle .
MR. RAJUILI: And if he does not allow you because of this ? I want to repeat , with all due
384.
respect, that there are those who are very discourteous .
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I was just going to ask in regard to sub- section ( 3) , where an officer may remove the clearance certificate , and also the certificate of fitness in the case of a bus , if the vehicle is found unworthy to be on the road, I don't see any provision for the issue of a receipt for these documents as provided for in section 158 (d). You see , papers removed may have to be receipted as sometimes it may be impossible to recover them. What I would like is a guarantee that it will not be said to you that you did not have a clearance certificate after it has been removed , just as you require cover in respect of an officer who has removed documents .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If he knows the law he will allow you and if he does not it is a deadlock. MR. RAJUILI : He generally says : Come out. Now, if you try to He just gives a command. move over to the left he just says : Come out. Now, your unwillingness to come out may be taken that you are obstructing the traffic officer in the execution of his duties . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is no obstruction.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , I think it can be provided for in the regulations , seeing that it has not been provided in this case .
MR. RAJUILI : What clause gives the man the right to resist ? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, there is no clause here that gives you the right to refuse , but you have all the means at your disposal to contest in a court of law your point of view.
Clause 161 put and agreed to. On Clause 162 MR. GUZANA: Now, you will remember , Sir , that the hon. Mr. Rajuili raised this question of the car being tested, and the owner being excluded by the examiner of vehicles from the car, and the examiner may well say that if the owner remains in the car he is obstructing him.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That means a lawyer. You are very uneconomic.
MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I may be leaving Umtata and going to Johannesburg. The officer may find me at Mount Frere .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Even if he is not in the driver's seat?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is talking about a different official altogether. This is the examiner of vehicles. He is not all over the country. He is in town.
MR. GUZANA: Yes , he is not in the driver's seat and the officer says he must get out of the car. I don't think we should just shake our heads because these things happen in the practical experience of someone using a car on the road. The inspector or police officer tells you to get out of the car and that actually happens , and you find yourself in the position of having to face a charge for obstruction when there should never have been such a thing.
MR. RAJUILI: Even then the point is - if he gives me trouble here , how shall I find the money from Johannesburg to pay for the nonsense he finds here? We are not interested in contesting cases in courts of Law. We are interested in being protected against the law that is being legislated .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, all the acts which the officers will have to do are such acts as will be in the execution of their duties . If the officer wants to drive the car in order to test its roadworthiness and he finds you sitting behind the steering wheel , and you move to the left , leaving him the seat of the driver to perform the driving , and he requires you to get out and you refuse to get out , and he charges you with having obstructed him in the execution of his duties , even if you are not defended in a court of lawthe pertinent question would be : Since the driver's seat was vacant and you had every opportunity to drive the car if you so wanted to , how did I obstruct you from executing What I mean is , any presiding your duties? officer with intelligence and reasonableness will know that in order to found a case of obstruction you must have prevented the officer from executing his duties . Of course , if he wanted the tools under the seat and you refused to move away, you would be guilty of obstructing him, but for him to say that you must get out of the car so that he can drive it is foolishness that will not be accepted by any court of law. If I had time to demonstrate to you a certain case which I defended, where the police wanted to write sitting down in a meeting, and the person refused to ...
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What point do you want to know about in that section?
MR. RAJUILI : The hon. Minister says I can go and contest the interference in a court of law, and I say you may live too far away from the point of interference. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The point is that the examiner of vehicles does not make you get out of your car. That is what you wanted to know .
MR . L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, I am interested in the sub- section which says the car may be dismantled. I want to know if this man is a qualified mechanic from a garage . And the sub-section which follows says that the examiner may drive the vehicle. Now, should he break it during the course of his driving, who is going to fix it? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think this has been covered in 159. MR. MAZWI : Dismantling the car ? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes. were you when this was discussed ?
MR .
Where
RAJUILI
:
And you lost the case.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I won the case . I always won my cases . The only thing Now, the I could not do was bookkeeping . police had to answer a question which I put to
Clause 160 put and agreed to . On Clause 161
385.
him , and I asked him how, at an open-air meeting, he would write the notes. He said he It was found that he would write standing up.
Clause 168 put and agreed to. On Clause 169
could write standing up and there was no obstruction. Even in this case , if the man sat in the seat next to the driver's seat it could not be said that he was being obstructed .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, here it is required that cars which previously have been licensed , and probably old models , will have to have direction indicators , stop lights and lights affixed to them . I hear a "No" about this comment. What is the position?
MR. RAJUILI: It must be understood that the hon. Minister said we are bringing a law here about which we know nothing.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That is quite correct, Mr. Chairman. It provides for these things to be fixed to the vehicle.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Who said that ?
At one stage MR . RAJUILI: He said that. he said this is merely being a consolidated Bill from the Republic .
MR. GUZANA : Does that mean that a person already owning such a car , and it is on the road , will have to have these accessories fitted , and motor dealers who sell these cars will be required to fit indicators , etc. , before they sell the car ? That is the point .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is brought here for uniformity. (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI: Now , this is what they say. They just say " Kom uit ". We do understand what the hon. the Minister of Education is saying, but sometimes even when you have tried to do that, you see they are always under the impression that it must not be seen what they are doing. They know we are not qualified or anything.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The reply is "Yes". Motor dealers must comply with the regulations and have these accessories fitted to cars .
Clause 169 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You know, the police are very clever . Once they see that you know they will leave you alone.
Clauses
170 to
177
put
and agreed to.
On Clause 178 MR. RAJUILI: Once they see you know, they get very difficult. They do not only do it with us, they do it with all civilized persons . I do not remember them saying "Kom uit" to an African. They just make you get out. I say this because you are just dragging this Bill in and you don't seem to know what is good about it.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I ask if a witness's X mark cannot be used if a thumbprint cannot be obtained , or a fingerprint from any of the other fingers? THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I do believe that it would be permissible.
Clause 162 put and agreed to .
Clause 178 put and agreed to. Clauses
163 to
165 put and agreed to.
Clause 179 put and agreed to. On Clause 166
On Clause 180 MR. RAJUILI: Please motivate. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, may I ask why it should be necessary that employees of the Government or Government Departments should What would make it necesenjoy exemption ? sary for an exemption to be extended to those departments ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: This section provides for regulations to be made by or for local authorities in regard to the matters set out therein. MR . RAJUILI: What matters ?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I think it is in connection with the performance of their duties , not as individuals , but as officials .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Affecting traffic regulations .
MR . GUZANA : Shouldn't they be subject to the law even if they are performing an official duty?
MR. RAJUILI : That is a very vague reply. Clause 166 put and agreed to. On Clause 167
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is a safety valve.
MR. GUZANA: What about legal practitioners ? He may have to get to a law court and park in an area where the parking is only for 45 minutes .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : State- owned vehicles are exempt in exceptional circumstances not to be frequently allowed , but there are always exceptional circumstances for which provision must be made .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The medical practitioner may be hurrying in a matter of life and death .
MR. GUZANA : We have been told that this is a safety valve provision. I would like some elaboration on that.
MR. GUZANA: Whilst the legal practitioner may be hurrying for a matter of life or liberty. (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall put the question.
Clause 180 put and agreed to.
Clause 167 put and agreed to. 386.
Clause 181 put and agreed to.
R100,000 into the coffers of the Transkei from people who could pay the extra fees .
On Clause 182 MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I want to know why it should be the Chief Minister instead of the Minister of Roads and Works who may, by notice in the official Gazette , assign the administration of his duties.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I know how this Schedule which you propose to substitute compares with the schedule in Natal , the Orange Free State and the Transvaal? Or do those provinces carry on with the one you seek to be substituted until they have amended it?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this is in compliance with the Transkei Constitution Act , No. 48 of 1963 , section 21. You will notice that it is the Chief Minister who assigns Ministers to different portfolios , and therefore it is also he who can assign duties to different officers under any Act.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The fees in this Schedule are in line with those of the Cape and not with the other provinces, because we are also part of the Cape because the towns in our terriTo avoid contory are part of the Republic. fusion, therefore , I think it is wise for us to adopt the Cape system.
MR. GUZANA : Well , this Department of Roads and Works has been allocated to a particular Minister by him, and that Minister exercises all the powers , duties and functions which devolve on him by reason of the fact that he is Minister of that Department, and this Bill has been brought before this House by the Minister of Roads and Works . How can his powers now be overridden by the Chief Minister in respect of the Department he is handling?
MR. GUZANA : I concede that there should be uniformity between the Transkei and the rest of If I understood the hon. the Cape Province. Minister correctly he says the schedule to be substituted for the one originally appearing in the Bill shows fees which are higher than in the Orange Free State , the Transvaal and Natal. Your purpose may be to collect extra revenue , Sir, but apart from your fiscal intentions , is there any justification for a variation of the fees from province to province ? Can't we have uniformity in that regard also? I suppose uniformity here is detrimental to your purse. I have had an explanation here , and I remember in your second reading speech you indicated that this clause or Schedule is not part of the fixed sections of the Traffic Act. If the head and the body of this crocodile have been fixed to the ground by a desire to maintain uniformity with the rest of the Republic , why should it, when it is allowed a bit of movement, flex its vicious tail to such an extent that it draws blood instead of money from the poor motorist ! (Laughter ) Anyway, I have received an explanation, thank you .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The position is that the road traffic control is not necessarily part of the Department of Roads and Works , and also the question of the licences that are contained in here , and it is by virtue of the allocation of these that they have become part of the Department of Roads and Works , so it follows then that the Chief Minister can also take away these powers and allocate them to another Minister. MR. GUZANA: He can merely allocate and not re-allocate these powers. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It stands to reason that if he can allocate he can also reallocate .
Part II of Schedule 2 put and agreed to , as amended .
Part III put and agreed to.
Clause 182 put and agreed to. Clauses
Part IV, Schedule 2
183 and 184 put and agreed to .
Parts I and II of Schedule 1 put and agreed to. Schedule 2 THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , hon. members , I wish to move an amendment to Part II of the Schedule that is , the section dealing with licences and I propose that this amendment replace the section shown in the Bill. The one shown in the Bill should be omitted and replaced by the new one. I now move that Part I of the schedule be adopted.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , in connection with paragraph 3, it is stated that cars owned by the local authority will not be taxed. Would the hon. Minister please explain how that comes about and if there are Government cars given over to local authorities for use which are maintained by the State ? I am not sure whether this car is the personal property ofthe local authority. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The local authority is a road authority. No State - owned cars are given to municipalities to use .
Part I of Schedule 2 agreed to. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in proposing the schedule of new licence fees which, incidentally , were recently also adopted by the Cape Provincial Council , members should note the close historical and geographical association of the Transkei with the Cape Province and remember the good liaison that exists , and consequently these fees should be uniform with those of the Cape Province. Further, if different licence fees existed in the Transkei it would lead to much confusion and fraudulant malpractices . However, an important factor to remember is that the increased would bring an additional estimated fees
MR. BUSAKWE : There is a magistrate who has an XG car which is maintained by this Government. Now who will maintain the car that is given to the local authority, or does the local authority purchase the car for itself and then avoid paying the tax? That is the question I wish to be explained . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The answer is the same. No State-owned car is placed at the disposal of a local authority or municipality. Municipalities buy their own vehicles and look after them . Part 387.
IV, Schedule 2 , put and agreed to.
ter - I don't knowwhether the hon. leader on this
Part V, Schedule 2
side was thinking in terms of allowing these old people, most of who are such a nuisance on a public road, but I want to find out before you can grant a licence at what age do these people stop Shouldn't they have being a public nuisance? drivers to do the driving for them , instead of seeing an old person of about 80 in a sort of thing like a Primus stove. We have been told they must enjoy life but we don't enjoy their driving .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , the exemption extended to persons in respect of licence fees only - (b) on page 72 has an "and " rather than an "or" . The percentage disability is said to be at least 50 per cent and that in itself should be a qualifying factor for exemption. Now you require that he should use that car to enable him to earn his livelihood . He may be disabled to the extent of 50 per cent plus , and may require a car in order to get about even if not for earning his livelihood. As it is put, the requirement that he should be using it to earn a livelihood will reduce the number of people who might otherwise require an exemption from licence fees only. You see , the disability which may be 50 per cent plus does not necessarily mean that a person may not need a car and that disability may be due to accident, aggravated by old age , and that person needs to use a car to get about and not necessarily to earn a livelihood . Shouldn't that person really enjoy an exemption in respect of the licence fees ? I am worried about the "and" because it couples two qualifications and yet I think (b ) is adequate to qualify for an exemption.
Part
V,
Schedule
2 , put and agreed to.
Parts VI and VII , Schedule 2 , and Schedule 3 put and agreed to. The long title and the whole Bill , as amended , put and agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I beg to report that the Bill before the House has been acceptted by the House with certain amendments. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I propose that the Bill be read a third time on Wednesday , 14th June.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Ithink it more or less concerns a legal point. MR. GUZANA: How do you say that? You see, if qualification (b) should be adequate to give exemption, then that should be so, but you have coupled it with (c) and yet a person may require a car because he is old, decrepit or disabled and does not require a car to earn a livelihood, but to make his life worthwhile , as it were , in his old age .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 14th June , 1967.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Yes , I agree with you .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
MR. GUZANA : You will agree that this is not a fixed section and you have room to manoeuvre here, and I would like , say, to have some sympathetic attitude here towards the old and disabled who may require a car to alleviate the pains and aches of old age and make their life worthwhile whilst they are alive . I can see old men here who are qualifying for this . We would ask some largesse from the hon. Minister .
TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC BILL THIRD READING
WEDNESDAY, 14TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Road Traffic Bill be read a third time. MR . R. MSENGANA: I second , Mr. Chairman. The Bill was read a third time .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I have said that I agree with the Leader of the Opposition on the point. MR. GUZANA: Thank you. amendment?
Agreed to. TRANSKEI ELECTORAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL SECOND READING
Shall we make an
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is usually said that petrol and liquor do not go together. As we have just dealt with the petrol bill I have decided to stand up before we pass on to the Liquor Bill. (Laughter) I rise today, Mr. Chairman, to move the second reading of the Transkei Electoral Law Amendment Bill. You will recall that during its 1966 session this Assembly unanimously adopted Motion No. 2 in terms ofwhich the Republican Government was to be requested to amend the Transkei Constitution Act to enable elections being held on a district instead of a regional basis. My Department then negotiated with the Republican Government and the request was acceded to. The matter is at present receiving
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I do not think it would be wise for us to agree to this without consulting Treasury , because this has some financial implications . MR. GUZANA : Is the idea acceptable ? That is the thing. Are you with me in principle ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We appreciate and sympathise with the principle. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , an opinion has been passed by members of the Government which is binding on my part. Although I have expressed my sympathy with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I feel I am in duty bound to abide by the general opinion. I think I have said enough.
attention in the Republican Parliament. Amendment to the Proclamation prescribing rules and regulations for the conduct of elections will now be necessary , and the attached Bill gives effect Most of the amendments are consethereto.
MR. RAJUILI : I will just ask the hon. Minis-
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of a written document or thing. The present provision puts the matter beyond doubt and is certainly in accordance with the spirit of general practice .
quential to the request contained in the motion and amendments brought about in the Constitution Act, and can be summarized as follows :(a) All reference to regions as constituencies are deleted and substituted where necessary by reference to districts ;
Mr. Chairman, if the 1968 general election is and it is to be conducted on a district basis the desire of all concerned that that be the case · then it is most important that the Bill be approved without any undue delay. October or November, 1968, the apparent time for the general election, may seem a long way off but with the general registration of voters , the printing of voters ' lists and the distribution of voting material over the whole of the Republic within the scope of about fourteen months , there is not much time left and the electoral machine will have to work in the highest gear from the very start. In addition to the tasks I have mentioned , an extensive propaganda campaign will be necessary in order to get all citizens to register even thoughthey have done so before . Existing records will be of no value , and it is to be brought to the attention of the public at large that although they have previously registered no name shall appear on the voters ' lists unless the person concerned has re-registered . My Department will launch this campaign but I also appeal to the members of this House to assist in this respect by stressing at all times and to all concerned the necessity to re - register. After the last by-elections we have heard about people who complained that, although they registered, their names did not appear on the list. Every person who now fails to re-register will be similarly disappointed at the forthcoming general election and it is the aim of my Department to avoid any such occurrence , but to be 100 per cent successful the co-operation of all members of this House is essential , hence my appeal to you for assistance in this matter. Mr. Chairman, that is the long and short of this Bill and I now move that the Bill be read a second time .
(b) All references to chief returning officer are deleted as there will be no necessity for such an officer if elections are to be conducted on a district basis. Each magistrate will be a returning officer , whereas under the old system where an electoral division comprised several districts , one of the magistrates of the districts concerned had to be appointed as chief returning officer; and (c) All references to polling district are also deleted as a district will , under the new system , be an electoral division of its own. No provision for or reference to the 26 districts being electoral divisions will be found in this Bill. Section 26 of the Constitution Act as recently amended provides therefor. A few amendments not consequential to the request contained in the motion to which I referred are also embodied in this Bill. Apart from mere structural alterations to some provisions , such amendments can be summarized as follows :(a) The existing law provides for the first general registration only. The Bill now provides for a second and subsequent general registration which is very necessary as the information reflected on existing voters ' cards does not facilitate the sorting thereof on a district basis. (b) In terms of existing provisions nominations could be by way of the prescribed form or in any written document. This caused difficulty as in some cases candidates were nominated telegraphically and all the required particulars were not furnished. The use of the prescribed form is now made compulsory to ensure that all the required information is furnished at the time of nomination. Prescribed forms will be available at the offices of all returning officers and can also be obtained from my Department. A pro forma of the form appears inthe Proclamation dealing with the conduct of elections and if necessary a typed version thereof can be used.
MR. R. MSENGANA: Isecond , Mr. Chairman. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is needless to emphasize the importance of this Bill for amending the electoral laws. I think we should also welcome the improvement in the unwieldy system over long distances that average in some areas well over a hundred square miles , for the voters who were ignorant as to what they would have to do or what was taking place in the general election . At the beginning there were those who thought that probably the regional areas were better than the district areas, for personal advantages particularly by this Government.
(c) The use of blank ballot papers is introduced where less than one hundred voters are expected to vote. In terms of the existing provision blank ballot papers could only be used in districts where no voters are registered . With the recent by- elections , in about 90 per cent of the districts of the Republic less than one hunred voters voted. This measure will obviate the necessity of having to send 26 different sets of ballot papers to each and every magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner's office.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you mean? You are talking nonsense . MR.
RAJUILI:
I did not talk about you.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We are "this Government" . You are talking balderdash.
(d) A new principle to be introduced is that where a voter who is incapable of voting is assisted by the presiding officer to record his vote, such voter shall have to indicate by word of mouth the candidate he wants to vote for. I put stress to " by word of mouth" . The presiding officer is to disregard any document or thing exhibited by the voter to indicate the candidate for whom he is or is not to vote. At present the. Proclamation merely states that the voter is to be assisted with due regard to the principles of It is, however, doubtful whether the secrecy. legislation originally intended that a voter be allowed to signify his choice of candidate by way
MR. RAJUILI : And yet this can be no advantage to this Government or to the Opposition. Un fortunately we have such a sensitive chunk of Ministers in our Government that they bark before they know where we are going. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We are going to tell you when you are speaking tripe .
MR. RAJUILI : We should emphasize the importance of educating the illiterate in this matter. We sometimes make a mistake by 389 .
taking a small percentage of the informed Africans and think that Transkei people are in a position to understand this electoral paraphenalia of elections . We have been listening to this
not even know and had never met , in order to make the vote valid for the candidate of his own choice .
speech and there is propaganda that is going to be Unfortunately we made about this and that. missed the most important thing. The Government does not seem to realise that the people are not as yet well informed about the modus operandi of these elections.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Coerced by whom ? MR . RAJUILI : The hon. the Chief Minister wants to know who forces a voter to do that. What I mean is where you have 31 candidates and you require five , and the voter is interested perhaps in one or two of the people on the list of 31 candidates. He is forced to vote for the other three people in order that at least his ballot should count. That is what I mean. It is even difficult in a small place like Umzimkulu , where perhaps they will only vote for two , but even so perhaps the voter only wants to vote for one and he is compelled to vote for one whom he perhaps does not want. What is wrong with a candid choice if he just wants to vote for one and then you just take the top five names , instead of making him vote for a man he has never seen in order that Mr. X can be elected . We would strongly request the Government to consider that part in the electoral laws that people be allowed to cast their votes for the candidate of their choice , and not have to vote for another to make the ballot count. These are the remarks we would like to make , Mr. Chairman , and we hope the hon. Minister will take consideration of these things .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is part of the propaganda referred to in the speech. MR. RAJUILI : We are aware that the Government in the past organised meetings to show the people what to do , and even with that many people did not know exactly what to do on polling day.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We shall employ you to be the propagandist. We thought MR. RAJUILI : I will do that. that the Government would say that the people still require education in these matters to show them what to do on polling day. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do you understand what the phrase "propaganda campaign" means ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have no doubt that the hon. members are aware that it is now a certainty that the Transkei Constitution Amendment Act is awaiting the signature of the acting State President , as the Bill to amend the Transkei Constitution Act in the Republican Parliament in Cape Twon has gone through all the stages . No doubt a new era in the electoral laws of the Transkei has come into being and we have no hesitation in stating that the elections on a district basis will be welcome by the electorate. Formerly the constituencies were so large that it became very much ridiculous for the voters to choose a proper candidate according to their wishes . The num-
MR. RAJUILI: It may mean anything than what is in my mind at the moment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We will say farewell to you next year. MR. RAJUILI : You will see me here even in 40 years ' time . Mr. Chairman , there is mention here of the electoral officer who shall be told by word of mouth what name the voter wants . In the past we had to tell more than one person, but we learn now we have to tell one officer. We shall still take them into confidence . One wonders who some of these polling officers are going to be , but, as I say , if this Government will arrange with the Republican Government and remove any agents that have been so schooled already not to be polling officers . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Who are those ? MR. RAJUILI : I want to emphasize that we hope this Government will negotiate with the Republican Government and get from the Republican Government such officers as are in no way connected with the people of the Transkei to be the polling officers . ( Interjections) We have been hearing from this Government that they feel they are still a baby Government. They have repeated that several times. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Who said that?
bers were so big in all the constituencies that everybody was rather puzzled as to whether this system of election according to regions was the best that could be preserved by the Transkei . The voters in each region ranged from 37,000 to 170,000 . The smallest constituency had about 37,000 and the biggest about 170,000 , whereas in the Republic the numbers just range round about 10,000 per constituency. Iam certain that the Opposition will co-operate with the Government in passing this short measure as there is nothing contentious. Eventhe little criticism referred to by the hon. member for Maluti with regard to the actual voting without a paper to assist a voter, I hope the Opposition will appreciate that we have now provided a safety valve . There will be no more threats from unscrupulous • ·
OP POSITION MEMBERS : Chiefs . (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI: And , indeed , how true , particularly in a complicated matter like this . The
THE CHIEF MINISTER : · .candidates and organisers. The people will vote for the candidate that they would like to vote for , and I am sure that the next elections in 1968 will be most interesting . Provision in these regulations is made even to stop a member of Parliament actually entering a polling station , taking the reference books from the voters and actually themselves presenting these reference books to the electoral officer. (Interjections) That happened in the Opposition side. I don't want to mention names . The hon. members across the floor will appreciate that these amendments are
hon. Minister says in paragraph 2 that the matter is at present receiving the attention of the Republican Parliament. I want to couple that point with the point on page 3 (d) where he talks about no paper being brought in or anything to indicate to the presiding officer other than what the voter tells him . We wonder whether, in an illiterate area like this , symbols would not be better than to go and whisper to the officer who is so human. We would also expect an improvement in that difficult system whereby a voter was coerced to cast a vote for a person whom he may
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tion wants to know why I did not report it. I shall do that in due course . I consider that first of all I must draw the attention of this House to the existence of this corruption.
straightforward and I have no doubt that there is nothing to criticize and I hope they will cooperate in all respects . MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to say that I support the words that have been said by the hon. Revd. Rajuili in connection with this matter that is under discussion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can't talk like that about these public servants . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You know we are just about to close down.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about those said by the Chief Minister ?
MR. BUBU: I am not going to worry myself about what the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Education are saying , Mr. Chairman. I am glad that the hon. Minister concerned is listening very attentively to what I am saying.
MR. BUBU: We also welcome the words said by the hon. the Chief Minister, (Laughter) meaning those words that the Chief Minister said more seriously and not playfully, but I think that while we welcome this, it is also necessary for us to draw the attention ofthe hon. Minister concerned to certain practices that have been evident during the past elections so that these may be eliminated in future and make the good propositions he has just put forward a success. In his speech he has made mention of an intended propaganda campaign which is going to be conducted by his Department. It is generally known amongst us that use will be made in that connection of what are called " information officers ". As the name indicates , Mr. Chairman, those should normally be very useful officers of the Department in disseminating information about Government activity. We take those people to be civil servants and, indeed, they are , but we must point out that these people are not discharging their duties and functions in the manner in whichthey should because while they disseminate the information from the Government, they at the same time identify themselves with Government politics .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are glad you choose this opportunity to label the Government officials with untruths . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , they cannot reply for themselves . Say it outside the House. MR. BUBU: Another matter Iwish to mention is this new principle that has been introduced whereby it is said that the voter will be assisted by the presiding officer . We welcome this because it will simplify matters considerably. Having regard to the fact that most ofthe electorate in the Transkei are illiterate we shall realise that therefore this principle is very , very important. We take it that the voter will approach the presiding officer and give him the name of the candidate of his choice and that the presiding officer will be expected to put a mark opposite the name that has been given to him, but there is something else that we want to know in this connection, Mr. Chairman , without which the principle of secret voting may not operate successfully. Are there going to be people who are going to watch that the presiding officer will put the mark against the right name?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about the Opposition politics ? MR. BUBU: They actually suggest the name of the candidate ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , there will be two witnesses.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: For the Opposition.
MR . BUBU: We know that there have been witnesses in the past, but we also know at the same time that the names that have been given to these polling officers , including the presiding officers , have not received the mark. The mark has not been put . . .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: For the Government. MR. BUBU: . . . that the people should vote for. Not only do they suggest , but in some cases, Mr. Chairman, they actually threaten the people.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know Were you in any polling station at any that? time ? You can't come here and make allegations of that sort.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a real insult. You can't prove that. MR. BUBU: I can prove it. If such-and- such a candidate is not voted for • ..
MR. BUBU: We know that that has taken place. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mention it outside . You cannot speak about people who cannot reply for themselves .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You were never in a polling station.
MR. BUBU: That is something that is very, very wrong on their part.
MR . BUBU: The hon. the Chief Minister seems to complain that nobody canknow whether this has been done or not.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot talk like that about civil servants .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , you cannot know unless you have actually been in a polling station. It is a serious allegation against the polling officers .
OP POSITION MEMBER: But it is a fact. MR. BUBU: I think the hon. the Chief Minister is interfering, Mr. Chairman.
MR..BUBU : In reply I must say he seems to forget easily what he said in this House in the past. The other year he suggested that teachers who had been appointed to act as these officers would not be appointed again because they had
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Why didn't you report it? MR. BUBU: The hon. the Minister of Educa-
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been guilty of what I am saying. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I never said that. MR. BUBU: And in respect of the past byelection there was plenty of evidence that an attempt was made that teachers should be removed from acting as polling officers as far as possible. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who made that attempt? MR. BUBU: The hon. the Chief Minister wants to know THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : You said you were going to address me now. I am surprised. MR. BUBU: Yes , thank you , I will . Now, we want to suggest here that the only way of obviating this difficulty is that the witnesses should be men who are drawn from the parties that are competing. (Interjections ) That is the only way, Mr. Chairman. Ifthe witnesses are representative of the parties they will see that the mark is put opposite the right name , otherwise the difficulty will never be avoided.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you have no party. It is only a collection of individuals. MR. BUBU: The third point I would like to bring up is that we trust that the hon. Minister of the Interior will see to it that chiefs and headmen are kept as far away as possible . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Why? MR. BUBU: Although we generally take it that they are responsible men who are respected by their communities , we must now say in this connection that they exercise a highly polluting influence , so they should be kept away from the voting. (Interjections) As has been said here before, they adopt such tactics as to threaten people with deportation • •
bols , so I am not at all accepting the idea that there should be this voting by symbols system The second point raised by in the Transkei. the hon. member was casting a vote for an unknown person or persons. I need only point out that if a voter knows that he wishes to vote for the Revd. Rajuili, as will not be the case , of course, in 1968 (Laughter) , and at the same time is required to choose four others in order that the voting paper should count , he will definitely write down the name of the one he knows and just write any other name that he feels like writing. So the main thing that counts is for him to vote for the person he knows . Passing on tothe remarks of the hon. member for Qaukeni , Mr. Bubu , mainly about the information officers , I need just say that there has been no complaint in this regard and as a member of the Assembly it was his duty to report such officials if at all there were To come here and say such an irregularity. those people did that and he did not report the matter is something I cannot understand. We are a responsible Government. The second point raised by the hon. member is the irregularities with regard to assistance given bythe presiding officers to people who cannot write , and the suggestion that witnesses be representatives of parties. I need just tell the hon. member that I am not accepting it. Let us surmise that there are two agents who can be appointed by the parties , the fact that witnesses must be in the the place where the voting is polling station -actually taking place - is ridiculous. My contention is that there are some areas where the voters really are threatened .. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : The chiefs . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am not going to say " chiefs". Iwill say "some areas" . If the hon. Mr. Bubu is a voter , for instance , and the hon. Revd. Rajuili represents the party , when the hon. Mr. Bubu is told to vote for Chief Majeke there are some people who will say: Ifyou don't vote for Chief Majeke you will not rest this night. And the voter will never know what sort of night he will spend and whether he will be attacked. So there will be that fear that the voter may be threatened and he won't know where he is .
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Never !
• .with cancelling their land
MR. BUBU: You saythe agents can be present. I want to know if they are allowed to watch • • •
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is in Ngqeleni .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: No , I said there will be agents but they will not be allowed inside .
MR . BUBU: allotments .
MR. BUBU: So ifthe intention of these amendments is to make this work as clean as possible , these points should be taken into account by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. If these things can be done we can assure you on this side of whole-hearted co-operation.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: There are agents who are allowed inside according to your law.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I should say first of all I thank the Opposition for their co- operation in this matter. I agree that only two of them have spoken, but I have heard nothing so far. (Laughter) If I may pass on to the remarks made by the Revd. Rajuili with regard to voting by symbols, this suggestion was discussed , I think, in our 1965 session , and if I am not mistaken the mover was the hon. Dr. Bala. In my remarks when replying to the hon . member , I said that had we initially started with the ordinary voting as is the case now, voting by symbols would have been a very retrogressive step and , of course , past experience has shown that our people are able to vote without having to refer to any sym-
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The place where the X mark is put is not the polling station itself.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They are not allowed to go to the cubicle where the person is voting .
MR. BUBU: What do you mean precisely by "polling station" ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: If you will trouble yourself to look at the Proclamation There is you will find the definition there. really therefore not much to say in this respect , Mr. Chairman . I think we can now put it to the vote. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question that the Transkei Electoral Law Amendment Bill
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be read a second time .
charge of the Bill what day for the committee stage and he said it would be tomorrow, and it is for tomorrow. That is all.
Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time.
TRANSKEI LIQUOR BILL SECOND READING
THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members, Before the establishment of the Transkeian Government it was possible for Bantu persons to obtain special authorities in terms of Proclamation No. R. 177 of 1962 to sell intoxicating liquor to so-called prohibited persons for consumption on or off the premises . That Proclamation still applies in the areas which do not form part of the Transkei . Since the establishment of self-government in the Transkei it has been felt that there is no good reason why Transkeian citizens should not be able to apply It has also for the ordinary liquor licences. been felt that neither ofthe liquor proclamations in force in the Transkei is suitable as a liquor law for the Transkei. Acts Nos . 9 of 1965 and 6 of 1966 were passed by this Assembly as temporary measures to enable Transkeian citizens to obtain the liquor licences provided for in Proclamation No. 333 of 1949. At that time my predecessor indicated that a comprehensive bill would be introduced at a later stage to meet the needs of the Transkeian people.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I am aware that there was an agreement in this House that there should be a day between the second reading and the committee stage , but as you are aware there is much that has to be done still. This Bill has to be sent to Cape Town and signed, and thereafter the machinery has to be put into motion. I therefore crave your indulgence that the committee stage be taken tomorrow. MR. C.S. MDA: With the proviso , Mr. Chairman, that the rules of the House be waived to allow members to move amendments. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That was a concession. THE CHAIRMAN: The business committee must see to that. Ihave nothing to do with that. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Tomorrow then, Mr. Chairman.
The Transkei Liquor Bill is not a further amendment or a mere patching together of existing pieces of legislation , but is an entirely new liquor law which is designed to make adequate provision for all matters pertaining to the control of intoxicating liquor in the Transkei . In order to avoid confusion I wish to make it clear that this law will only apply in the Transkei as defined in section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963. It will only become of force and effect in the so- called White spots after they have become part of the Transkei , whether they have already been reserved for Bantu occupation or not.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid you can't say that. The business committee must decide. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Minister has given the date. THE CHAIRMAN: Did you say tomorrow? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : We hope, Sir, we will be given a chance to put in amendments to this Bill. That is why your regulations have laid down that in order to give the Opposition a fair chance to put in amendments there should be a day between the two stages. We are busy with other bills until 5 o'clock so when can we make our amendments ?
The Bill is not in form identical to or based on any existing legislation. However, the sound principles contained in such legislation which have stood the test of time , have been incorporated in the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN : The Minister says the committee stage will be tomorrow.
The Bill makes provision for a Transkeian Liquor Board. This Board will hold annual and interim meetings at which it will deal with the matters assigned to it. The Bill lays down the powers and functions of the Board.
MR. MDA: We appeal to you, Mr. Chairman, on this matter.
The Bill further provides for all matters pertaining to applications for liquor licences , the disposal of such applications by the licensing authority concerned , the requirements in regard to licensees and licensed premises , cancellation of licences , and various other matters concerning the sale, possession and consumption of liquor .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You cannot appeal to the Chairman. You must appeal to the Minister and he is refusing. MR. MDA : All right, let me appeal to the Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He cannot act alone . He must act in conjunction with the Cabinet.
An important feature of the Bill is that all applications for new licences (other than temporary or late hours licences ) will be determined by the Minister of Justice upon the recommendation of the Board and that the Minister can only grant a new licence if the Board has so recommended. The Board will consider and determine applications for the renewal or removal of licences while the Magistrates will determine applications for temporary liquor licences and late hours licences .
MR . MOA: We appeal to the hon. Minister to allow this Bill to go through the House in an intelligent manner, and to be intelligent it means the Opposition must be given an opportunity to study the proposed legislation as against the measure that it seeks to amend, so that whatever amendments they may seek to propose tothe proposed Bill may accordingly be intelligent.
THE CHAIRMAN: I asked the hon. Minister in
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Provision is made for several classes of licences which have hitherto been unknown in the Transkei . These incluse a bar licence , a restaurant liquor licence , a Bantu beer licence , a Bantu beer brewer's licence and a wholesale liquor licence. It is considered that there is a need for these licences in the Transkei and the desirability of making provision therefor stands to reason. Provision is also made for the granting of a special right of off- sale in respect of hotel and Bantu beer licences .
at the same time apprehensive of its consequences . It is remarkable , Sir , that provision for these businesses will not be available in the municipal areas ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is wrong. They get licences, but under the old law. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Yes , he says this one will not be applicable . That does not mean that the other one will not be applying.
I am certain that the provisions relating to the brewing and sale of Bantu beer will be welcomed by this Assembly and by the people of the Transkei . Bantu beer contains very little alcohol and is regarded by many authorities as an excellent beverage . It is felt that Bantu beer should be freely available and should be treated differently from other kinds of liquor . As the number of bottle store and bar licences in any particular area will obviously have to be limited, it will be possible under the provisions of this law to allow more distribution points where Bantu beer can be sold.
MR. MDA : .... because the municipal areas are the best areas for any business undertakings . In fact, it goes without saying that the municipal areas have lucrative opportunities in any business . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There is one African who has a licence already . MR. MDA : But not under this proposed legislation. One other thing that is giving concern is the splitting up of licences into various licences and we become immediately suspicious that the intention is to create revenue for the Transkei so that it is not intended to help the people as much as it is intended to help the State at the expense of the people .
Special provision is made for the Xhosa Development Corporation to obtain liquor licences under this law. The corporation can be of great assistance in regard to the training of Transkeian citizens who wish to enter the liquor Furthermore , the corporation has the trade. capital to erect modern Bantu beer breweries with modern equipment and to maintain a fleet of tankers for the conveyance of Bantu beer to the various distribution points . All licenceholders will be entitled to purchase beer from such breweries and they will have the satisfaction of selling Bantu beer of excellent quality. Should the corporation decide to enter the liquor trade I believe that its activities will give an impetus to the trade and will stimulate the economy of the Transkei.
In conclusion I wish to mention the authority conferred by the Bill on the Minister of Justice to make regulations in regard to various matters. It will ensure and facilitate the proper administration of this law. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members , I now move that the Transkei Liquor Bill be read for a second time . MR. R. MSENGANA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed . MR . C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , naturally I will not have much to say on this proposed legislation - firstly, because I unfortunately am not inclined to partake in the food hereby sought to be provided. ( Laughter) In any event I think it is welcomed that the Africans in the Transkei will now be given an opportunity to apply for liquor licences , although it gives us some anxiety that perhaps this will mean that our people will sink themselves into liquor and thereby perish like Adam Kok and his followers. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you wanted this . MR. MDA : So while we appreciate the opportunity that is being offered to the people , we are
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What has beenthe position in the past? MR. MDA : The various licences listed here are a bar licence , a restaurant liquor licence , a Bantu beer licence , Bantu beer brewer's licence and a wholesale liquor licence. I am not in a position to say what the position has been before this ... THE CHIEF MINISTER : That has been the position in the past. MR. MDA: ... but the fact as I see it remains that these many licences could be consolidated into two or three licences at the most, if that could be found to be tothe advantage of the people or the person who wants to take the licence , but as I say, the intention does not seem to be that of helping the people more than it is of providing the Government with some source of revenue . Again, we find this prowling tiger , as it was referred to on some previous occasions the Xhosa Development Corporation - coming in (Laughter) and the justification for its coming in here is that it may give impetus to the trade in the Transkei . I shall not say it will not give impetus but I want to say that it surely will destroy the initiative of the Transkei citizen in his own and private endeavour to lift himself up. It offers unfair competition altogether with an African private individual because he has not the means , and in any event , Mr. Chairman, I personally feel that in order to be successful a man must start from a very , very humble beginning and as he gains experience he also builds himself up , and the undertaking that he is connected with . But now when you bring in the Xhosa Development Corporation it means that the humble man sees the opportunity for success altogether blotted out. Will the hon. Minister in his reply say why the Government of the Transkei is so much wedded to this Xhosa Development Corporation and the Bantu Investment Corpora1 tion, because our suspicion in regard to this Corporation is that it has come to buy out the White people of the Transkei in favour of Afrikaner capital . ( Interjections ) Not that we are opposed to the Afrikaners, as the hon. the Chief Minister seems to suggest , but we are suspicious 394.
of the efforts of the Afrikaner to move the other section of the White people out of the Transkei when they themselves are so keen to come in. (Interjections) It is the Transkei citizens who are in a position to say what they would like to have intheir own Transkei . After all , the Government policy is that we have got to determine our own future.
tative"? that.
MR . GUZANA: Does that cover the legal representative ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes .
MR. GUZANA: If that is so I welcome that and as more often than not the board resists all applications (it starts with a preconceived idea that it is not going to give a licence and it has to be persuaded) ... .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Xhosa Development Corporation is here to assist you stand on your feet. MR . MDA : We have no hand in the Xhosa Development Corporation. It is an institution that was thrust upon us and we have had no choice.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And your colleague says we must not open the door for liquor licences .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We made a request for it.
MR. GUZANA: . . . and those who get licences are fortunate , because there is so much red tape in the affair . Perhaps it is as it should be because liquor is a devastating beverage. I want to stress the fact that if the intention of the Government is to consolidate and make the application of the regulations simpler bythis Bill , then this Bill ought to apply in urban areas in Proclamation 177 of 1962 prothe Transkei . vides for a very cumbersome , intricate and lumbering process of application , and VM Bs or municipal councils have a word on an application submitted under Proclamation 177 of 1962 . Why, if it is sought to simplify the process , should these not be extended or the Republican Government asked to extend these provisions to urban areas? Is the Xhosa Development Corporation going to be excluded from municipal areas , since this law applies only to those areas outside the municipal and VMB areas . If it is going to be allowed to operate within the municipal areas , alternatively the African applicant should be allowed also to apply for a liquor licence in terms of this Bill within a municipal area. After all , if the Xhosa Development Corporation is regarded as a Bantu it must suffer the disabilities that attach to a Bantu ·
MR . MDA : Unfortunately the people of the Transkei are not aware that anybody asked for the Bantu Investment Corporation in the Transkei . I understand from the hon. the Chief Minister that they asked for the Bantu Investment Corporation ... . THE CHIEF MINISTER: For assistance from the Republican Government. MR. MDA : Unfortunately, they also asked that the Bantu Investment Corporation should be regarded as a Black man when there is not one African who holds shares in that Corporation. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Apply for shares . MR. MDA : The suspicion is that the Bantu Investment Corporation is made up of wealthy White farmers in the Republic, who want to inprove their own financial position in the Transkei. We hold that the hon. the Minister of Justice and Liquor (Laughter) should consider the position of his own fellow- countrymen in the Transkei over these. As I said earlier, I would personally not like to see our people getting drunk almost half their lives , even though I would do everything to support their endeavours financially. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I need not bring a frown upon those who like liquor , but I just want to comment on some of the matters that have been raised by this Bill. Let me assure them that I shall not seek to take away from them what they hope will be to their advantage . They should, however, not expect me to invite them to a bar for some entertainment any time , and any temptations by the hon. Ministers which have been thrown in my way when they have invited me to lunch upstairs have been resisted doggedly and without succumbing. (Laughter) To put it rather crudely, it is only a dog which enjoys a dog's bone . I notice that at the meeting of the board there does not seem to be provision for legal representation. That is the impression I get. The applicant appears personally, or, if he is deceased , a representative of his estate . If he is insolvent then a trustee of his insolvent estate . Now, I do not know why an applicant should not have a legal representative before the board. I think everybody agrees that this is a complicated law; that the board requires certain affidavits and explanations and reports from various officials ...
In section 14 (a) you are covered by
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get it that it is regarded as a Bantu? MR . GUZANA : ...just as the BIC ought to suffer the disadvantages that attach to the Bantu because it is regarded as a Bantu. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you sure of your facts ? MR . GUZANA: You look at your Zoning Proclamation and you find the Xhosa Development Corporation is regarded as a Bantu . Why should the Corporation have it both ways ? The result of that is this : By the time the African has the finances to go into the liquor business within the municipal areas the Xhosa Development Corporation will already be having a monopoly and it will object to every African getting a licence within the VMB or municipal area . It is suggested that the Xhosa Development Corporation will give impetus to trade in the Transkei , that it will assist Africans in supplying them with Kaffir beer by means of tankers which will crawl over the Transkei like ants. I want to know if the XDC will give up that business when an African is able to take over, because my contention is that once it starts with this business it will not hand it over to a private individual . THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your authority for that?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is the meaning of the words "or his duly authorized represen-
MR. GUZANA: That is typical of all capita395.
lists and it is a capitalistic body, and even if it is willing to hand over to an African, what African will have the capital to buy over a big brewing concern established in Umtata and supplying the whole of the Transkei with Kaffir beer? Well, Sir, I think the liquor flies might think I Let them have it, am objecting to this thing. those who want it, but I have no taste for it. I am only concerned with the ethics of the whole policy as contained in the Bill and I want to throw a challenge now to the hon. the Minister of Justice .
although they were listed as having been sold to Africans . THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a wild statement. MR. GUZANA: We shall see who is deceiving this House , but we will make this observation that the BIC should at least give us correct information about its dealings in the Transkei . After all , the XDC is the baby of the BIC and who ' knows it is a chip of the old block ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Bantu Investment Corporation has assisted many Africans .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I accept it. MR. GUZANA: Well, I want you to answer this question clearly and unequivocally. If the Xhosa Development Corporation applies for a licence to establish a wholesale business in Bantu beer, and a truly Xhosa Development Corporation made up of Africans seeks the same licence , to whom will you grant that new licence , since the power to grant licences is vested in you, according to the Proclamation? The hon. the Chief Minister has told us that he invited the BIC into the Transkei and also the Xhosa Development Corporation.
MR . GUZANA : Sir , we may have to submit some amendments in this matter , but we want to assure you that they will be nothing to give you more grey hairs than you carry on your head at the moment . After all, it is fortunate that this Bill is handled objectively by a person who has no predilection for the liquor which he wishes to make available . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon members , I have indulged the members in their debating under this Bill but I notice that they are going over their prescribed time of 30 minutes . I shall ask the hon. the Leader of Opposition to take note of this because they are the culprits in this respect.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , I said the Xhosa Development Corporation. MR. GUZANA : If he never invited the BIC at least they have been bed-fellows for a very long time . Now if it is that old , why don't you throw it away? Now, may I ask the hon. the Chief Minister why he has no control over the Xhosa Development Corporation or the BIC?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy that as I stand here I stand in the same category as my hon. friend opposite me . You can see the button which I have on my coat. However , I am sure that the whole country is watching with interest the future promulgation of this Bill as a law which will govern the liquor licences in the Transkei . The African people have for a long time been clamouring for privileges in so far as liquor is concerned which apply to the White man in South Africa.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why should I? The Republican Government has control over it.
MR . GUZANA : But you are aware in your own mind that the BIC and the XDC have been working against the interests of the African in the Transkei.
MR. MDA : And how long has the Xhosa Development Corporation been clamouring?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How do you know? The Xhosa Development Corporation has not started to work yet.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What the African people want is freedom. They must be able to purchase liquor as they want it without any restrictions placed upon them by the law. The hon. member for Qaukeni has an assumption that this may lead to drunkenness in the Transkei . I want to assure him that it will reduce drunkenness . Right across the borders of the Transkei in the Glen Grey district the liquor law has not been as stringent as it has been in this area , but drunkenness in the Glen Grey district has not been as prevalent as you find it in the Transkei in spite of the restrictions which applied in this area . I want to assure him that if you give the people the opportunity to drink without buying a bottle , but to sit down and drink in tots , then they will be in a position to be responsible and not to spend their money. I am unable to understand why the Opposition is so averse to the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections) That corporation has not started functioning yet except making investigations with regard to the establishment of factories in the Transkei . The hon. member from Qaukeni says : We don't want it. That is typical of the illiterate people who do not understand what is good for them and I am surprised that an ex- student of Fort Hare University should just come to this House and say: We don't want it without advancing any reasons . It has come
MR. GUZANA : Your bed- fellow, the BIC , has been working in the Transkei . We had a report from the hon. the Minister of the Interior listing the trading stations that have been sold to Africans and to save his face and your face we laughed up our sleeves , because some of the stations listed there have not been sold to Africans. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you contradicting what the Minister says ? MR. GUZANA : I am telling you that some of the stations have not been sold to Africans , because I know that it is so.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Aren't you speaking wildly, because he has the figures ? MR. GUZANA : You know I have never spoken wildly in this House and what I say I stand for . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Was the Minister telling lies ? MR. GUZANA : He gets the information from the BIC and we are going to presume that information is correct until it is proved otherwise , and we know we have proved otherwise that some of those stations have not been sold to Africans
from the mouths of the Opposition members that industries should be established in the Transkei . Now, the Republican Government , in
396.
order to establish these industries, has established a corporation known as the Xhosa Development Corporation . That Corporation has specifically been established to give impetus to the establishment of industries and assist the Africans to start these industries as soon as they are in a position to do so.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: At one time you want White capital to come into the Transkei ; at other times you don't want White capital. You want capital to come from Russia and China - that is what you want, because you have actually promised them you will give them the Transkei . (Laughter) Now, we will protect the Transkei and Transkeians and the only way to do it is to let this Government handle its affairs . (Interjection) Now the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said there might be difficulty in getting licences . I wish to assure him that the applications will be considered as expeditiously as they have been done in the past. As an attorney he will be in a position to collect his fees ·
MR. GUZANA : Why doesn't this Government have its own corporation established by it , so that it may have control over it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are asking a question which I cannot reply to just now, but I am going to reply to the question you put to the hon. the Minister of Justice as to whether the Xhosa Development Corporation will give way to an African corporation. That is precisely what the Xhosa Development Corporation has been established for, to start these industries and when the African companies are available , to hand over to these companies . I do not know how many times we shall drill it into the stupid minds of the Opposition members. You are becoming sentimental over this whole business . At one time you are multi- racialists and at another time the most extreme racialists.
MR. GUZANA: I shall have to mark my fees up for a liquor licence application because it will be the longest process ever. THE CHIEF MINISTER : .... because there is room for a duly authorized representative . MR . GUZANA: It says an applicant orhis duly In other words , if authorized representative. the applicant is there you don't have the authorized representative . THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, if the applicant is there he will put the application himself.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: We are not for one particular group .
MR . GUZANA: That's right. MR . GUZANA: You don't realise that those who have must give to those who have not, so that there must be some sort of equality. You have not learned the process of osmosis .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Or his duly authorized representative .
MR. GUZANA : Which means the representative may not be there.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Suppose we did not have the Xhosa Development Corporation, who would start these industries ? (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
MR. GUZANA: There is no specific provision that an an applicant may be represented by a legal representative .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are not in a position now to form a simple society such as a building society to lend money to your own people . If at all you are in a position to do anything at all , we would like to see you start a building society tomorrow. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not necessary to specify that it will be a legal representative . MR. GUZANA : You cannot ask them both to appear before the board.
THE CHAIRMAN: Don't worry yourself about answering these questions. Just carry on.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The words "or his duly authorized representative " include a legal representative .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman . (Interjections )
MR. GUZANA: It is in the alternative , which means that if the applicant is there he may not have his legal representative .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. members across the floor have been crying loudly about the driving away of investments from the Transkei by not allowing Europeans to lend out money to people who want to build up industry. When will you put up a simple thing like a building society , if at all you want to put up a gigantic industry like a brewery which will employ hundreds of people. (Interjection) While you are not in a position to do these things , the Xhosa Development Corporation will initiate these industries .
MR . GUZANA: When shall we be in a position to do that, when you pay 50 cents a day to your labourers? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The time will come when the African people will be in a position to do these things . We want you to be sincere. MR. GUZANA : You are the most insincere Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is a matter forthe person who is putting the application to decide .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But does your client not come with you? MR . GUZANA : He comes because he is authorized to have a legal representative . Here it says " or his duly authorized representative " .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : With regard to the hon. member's plea thatthe Bill ought to apply in the urban areas, I am surprised that this should come from an attorney . MR. GUZANA: I am just a representative of the people here . Remember that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He is in a position to read the Constitution of the Transkei backwards and forwards . The urban areas inthe Transkei 397 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It will operate in the urban areas because it is White .
are not part of the Transkei in so far as the Constitution is concerned .
MR. GUZANA: It is White now?
MR. GUZANA : I have conceded that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It can be both ways . THE CHIEF MINISTER: They fall under the Republican Government.
MR. GUZANA : It is multi- racial now. (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: Yes.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Xhosa Development Corporation cannot be regarded as a capitalist institution. All that it is going to do is to start these industries. It will start a brewery and when there is a company ready to take it over it will hand that brewery over to the company. You should be thankful to the Republican Government for assisting the Transkei in its future development . Like the big Kaffirs you are (Laughter) you are scared over everything which is done by the Republican Government to assist the people of the Transkei . I wish to appeal to you hon. members to please assist your Government. These six learned men on this side of the House (Laughter ) are trying everything in their power to see that the Transkei is economically viable . The Xhosa Development Corporation has got the purse and they will start a big industry which will employ hundreds of people - precisely what you advocated a few days You said we should open up industries. ago.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Well, you can't expect this to apply to the urban areas. MR. GUZANA: You have your concentration of African entrepreneurs in the urban areas and why are those people not able to take advantage of this because they live in an urban area?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Give me a chance. As he has already said, Proclamation 177 of 1962 provides for the urban areas. That is why today you already have two Africans who have been given liquor licences right in the urban areas, a privilege which would not have been granted to those Africans if it were for your policy. MR. GUZANA: How do you come to say that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your policy is the maintenance of the status quo .
MR. GUZANA : That is what the slave trade did. MR. GUZANA: That's what you think.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , that's what it is.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What it is going to do is to try to stop migratory labour for the people of the Transkei .
MR. GUZANA : Look at multi-racialism as a policy and answer the questions .
THE CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. members should remember the fact that there is still a committee stage on this Bill and you are wasting your time now.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where does it apply in South Africa?
MR. GUZANA: Does multi- racialism favour any particular individual ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am just standing up to explain a point of law which has been raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . He contends that section 14 (1 ) (a) will have the effect of excluding one or the other of the applicant or his duly authorized representative . I think he has misconstrued the rest of that section. It refers to appearance before the board , not presence at the meeting of the board. I should first of all say that the board meetings are usually public meetings , so the applicant will also be present at these meetings and if represented by a legal representative it will be his representative who will appear on his behalf before the board .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is merely an ideology. MR. GUZANA : Just like " apartheid" . THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, this is a practical policy. The separate development policy is in action now. The fact that we have this Liquor Bill today is a result of that policy. ( Interjections) MR . GUZANA: If you had a multi-racial policy the sky would be the limit. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are trying to show you that you are mere theorists . You propagate a policy which will never exist and today you are pleased to have this Liquor Bill because you are going to be the first people to make use of it. (Interjections ) You will bring out your knives now that the ox is lying on the ground and you will skin it. In the urban areas you were the first people to enter. You don't know where this benefit comes from but you are making use of it. (Interjections ) With regard to the Xhosa Development Corporation being excluded from the application of these provisions , I want to emphasize that the Xhosa Development Corporation is a corporation of the Republican Government, therefore it cannot be excluded from the application of the provisions of this Bill.
MR. GUZANA : No , it will start its business in an urban area. Why do you say it cannot be excluded ?
MR. GUZANA: It says " The Hearing and Representation of Applicants ". That is the heading next to the section. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It says "At the appropriate meeting of the board " and then it lists those paragraphs and goes on " shall have the right to appear before the board and to be heard by the board and to call evidence ..." That means if you, being a legal representative , appear on behalf of your client . MR . GUZANA: I hate these personal references .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are good examples , especially when the example is right in front of me. MR. GUZANA : I hope I meet you on that 398.
board .
in at the door. (Interjections ) However , it is a sad thing that so much of our time and so much noise can be taken up on a matter like this one . We are on a matter on which we are accustomed to hearing unpleasantness , of shebeen queens . Now you see the hon. Minister dragging shebeen queens into the Transkei and himself strutting in front of them as the shebeen king. The hon. the Chief Minister prides himself on the fact that it will stimulate industry. Sometimes I have some regard for him, particularly for the type of button he wears, but if he is going to say this is going to bring about industry and for the first time he is strutting here shouting how industry will be established in a pool of liquor ... (Laughter)
( Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, you will call your client, the applicant, to give evidence the applicant who will also be present at the meeting . MR. GUZANA: Why is it not stated clearly that the applicant shall have the right to be represented by a legal representative? I would rather say "any applicant who is before the board and his legal representative . " Then obviously he is going to be there. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , what is wrong with this, because obviously he will be there ? MR. GUZANA: It says "the applicant whose application is before the board or his duly authorized representative " . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is because they could not be heard by the board at the same time.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: These breweries are going to provide a good market for our produce. MR. RAJUILI : The hon. the Minister of Justice who is piloting this Bill was once a brilliant scholar and author of great books. It reminds me the other day when I had conjured up in the figment of my imagination seeing him fall from a big cliff right down.
MR. GUZANA : It would be ridiculous for them to be heard at the same time . But I say he should have his representative next to him.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is the trouble with you you are full of imagination.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do you deny that the representative will be there ?
MR. RAJUILI: He is now in a pool of liquor. (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA : Sub- section 14 (1) (a) suggests the alternative .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, please come to the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It does not. It says that either/or will be heard ,because they cannot be heard at the same time.
MR . RAJUILI: I wondered at one time whether this Department is one for retiring age. (Interjections ) Now the moment they speak about it it appears that they have taken a sip of it.
MR . GUZANA: This is being technical and you are splitting hairs now. It is either the applicant or the legal representative .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Did you take some liquor before you came here ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You see , the position is this : As I have said, the meeting being a public meeting, the applicant will be there. He cannot be excluded. But this section says either the applicant will be heard by the board, or his legal representative . Now I wanted to allay the fears of my learned friend, the hon. member across the floor, that the applicant will not be there and that it will only be the representative who will be there. (Interjections) I am showing you people that they will all be there the liquor licence applicant and the representative - but only one will be heard by the board.
MR . JAFTA: It is said that this Bill is the first of its kind in the Transkei and this Bill is brought by the hon. Minister who states that it is welcomed.
MR . GUZANA: And what is the use of being present if only one is heard and not the other?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: By both sides of the House .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The other will give evidence . You can give evidence for your client too , even in an ordinary case.
MR. JAFTA: I say it is welcomed with tears because it is a curse to the nation . I do not mean that this Bill should not have been tabled , but as you say with your own mouth , some things are premature . This is one of the things which is premature . Now, if there was a choice between freedom of liquor or freedom of education , what would be the reply? Some people say they cannot be compared and yet they have been brought to the people . I say it is premature because it is brought to the youths at an age when they cannot manage themselves. How would it be to get them to a certain standard first , so that when they have had a certain amount of education they can consider things ? I am saying this because it is definitely going to destroy the nation. It is a real curse . There is a theory which says that things are better in the Glen Grey district , and yet there
MR. RAJUILI: As I say, I see him like some platanna in a pool of liquor. (Laughter) MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand to say a few words in connection with this Bill. THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is not a place for moralizing .
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , where is the Xhosa version of this Bill? THE CHAIRMAN: I will make an announcement about that tomorrow morning. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I don't usually address this House in an overcoat, but it is fitting in a matter of this nature for which I don't care tuppence. (Laughter) I hope the hon. chiefs will not be worried. I never want to sink into this pool of unfortunateness . One would expect them not to take too much , but the trouble is that some of them can hardly walk 399.
is no such thing. No one will ever succeed as long as he indulges in strong drink. I am not trying to object to the idea of this Bill being tabled, but the people are not yet ripe . You have said that people should be given freedom in this as it is in the Republic , and yet the aims and objects of this are to destroy the nation. Former speakers have said enough. I do not like the idea of the Xhosa Development Corporation or the BIC doing the business , because it will deprive the people of opportunities . It is quite in order that whoever wishes to should drink Bantu beer as long as he is reasonable. People can drink Bantu beer reasonably, but the I just European liquor is more dangerous . wanted to express those few ideas .
to sell where we ought to be making our own beer. In that regard may I ask, in the municipal areas which have been zoned Black, who will sell beer ? And in those areas which have been zoned Black why are we not permitted to sell our beer? (Interjections ) If I follow your policy closely Willowvale has been zoned entirely Black, and if that is the case I ought to be granted a liquor licence even though a European may hold one. THE CHIEF MINISTER: In Mount Frere there is one, and in Cala. MR. BUSAKWE : The information I have about Mount Frere is that the Europeans there say we are working against their businesses . They are opposing the licence . If the Government main- . tains that this is their Bill and if it is the Government's , then it is ours as well. I would like you to remember that whatever the law is , even if we opposed it originally , once it becomes law we must respect it.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this Liquor Bill we have listened carefully to these teetotallers . Now, as I speak I will be representing 80 per cent ofthe members here. (Laughter) I will begin with Bantu beer. For a very long time the Bantu people have protested against the sale of their beer by Europeans, and today we are putting it into force in the Transkei . I don't quite know what the object is for in the municipal areas the municipal councils maintain that by the sale of Bantu beer they are increasing their funds in order to imHere, prove Bantu locations for the Bantu. however , we do not want to have Bantu locations , but residential areas for the people , and we do not know why there should be a European organisation to sell Bantu beer. The people prepare
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am glad to hear you say that. MR. BUSAKWE : The law here maintains that whatever is brought before this House must be in English, Afrikaans and Xhosa. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: It has been tabled already . MR. BUSAKWE : If you are aware of the law you should have followed it closely. I say this Bill should be held back until the translation is there.
their own beer , not necessarily some of the concoctions that are for sale. We don't argue that those things are good - such as "mqombothi " in which mouldy bread is used · but to take the rights and privileges of the Bantu people and pass them on to the Europeans we certainly oppose. Under section 118 you give the monopoly to the Xhosa Development Corporation. Is that not so ? That is what I am referring to. Leave us to brew our own Bantu beer . (Interjections) Don't try to make money by the sale of Bantu beer. I think I have said enough on the subject of Bantu beer. Let me now refer to the preachers who are opposed to the sale of beer. Which is better to buy liquor openly, or to buy it secretly? In the first instance you pay plenty of money for your liquor and secondly you drink more than you would otherwise if you bought it legally, and you get so drunk that you have to be carried home. But if you are given authority to buy
CHIEF M. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pretty sure I will cut myself short. As regards the speech of the hon. the Chief Minister in connection with this matter , I do not see any deviation from rectitude because we want Bantu beer to be sold so that they get what they can get. As regards this Bill the last speaker has said a great thing about that , because some things are not allowed at all by law, with the exception of brandy and Kaffir beer. Those things have been examined by doctors , therefore those things are allowed . That is why I said there is no deviation from rectitude in this matter and even that policy will agree that there should be suchthings done, with the exception ofprohibitions . That has been agreed to. If the people in the Transkei do not brew Kaffir beer and sell it to the people , that means to say that you don't want any people here inthe Transkei to progress . If you are educated , don't think that everybody is illiterate . Now, great things have small beginnings . (Laughter) Therefore I side with the hon. the Chief Minister in regard to this matter we are talking about. I talk, but I don't want to tautologize. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned .
your drink anywhere you will buy it, put it in your pocket and take it home to drink; or you will buy a little to drink then and there and then go home. Hon. members , I think this is an old affair which comes from America , where the people do not even want to look at drink. They had prohibition. People were arrested , but other countries took liquor into America - So much so that the people became drunk. Let me touch on what the Leader said . It is not proper to refer to us as liquor flies , (Laughter) for we should leave people alone to eat or drink what they like. Some people drink respectably but there are those who drink to excess and they cannot help it. I will pass on to what the hon. the Chief Minister has said. He says we have taken out our big knives now to skin the beast because we have this big Liquor Bill for the first time . I wonder whether he has made a mistake , because we have been drinking long before this day. The Republic gave us the freedom to drink as much as we like and made a law relative to that, and now they are making something of their own which is not the same as the Republic gave us . You have tied our hands by allowing the Xhosa Development Corporation
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 15th June , 1967 . THURSDAY , 15TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI ELECTORAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr.
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Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House now resolve itself into committee.
Mr. Chairman, that can be done administratively. Clause 7 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I second. Clause 8 put and agreed to.
Agreed to. On Clause 9 House in Committee On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, (a ) of clause 1 contains a new definition of "absent voter " . Ifthe voter has reason to believe that on the polling day he will not be in the division in which he is registered as a voter, he can also vote as an absent voter . (b) deletes the definition " chief returning officer" . The amendment is consequential as there will be no necessity for such an officer. If elections are to be conducted on a district basis each magistrate will be a returning officer, whereas under the existing system where the electoral division comprises several districts , one of the magistrates of the districts concerned had to be appointed as chief returning officer. (c) - In terms of clause 20 the competent authority may prescribe certain forms. The term "prescribed" is here defined to mean determined by or under the Proclamation, No. 142 of 1963. Sub- clause (d) deletes the words "a chief returning officer and" in the definition of " returning officer" . This amendment is consequential , as already explained under (b). I move the adoption of this Clause. MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, in 1 (a) , what do you consider an absent voter ? Is it a person outside his district ? Can't he vote anywhere , wherever he may be? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes , he can. Mr. Chairman, the position still remains as it was in previous years .
Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clauses 2 and 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 OPPOSITION MEMBER : 4 (b).
Please
motivate
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: " At such convenient place within each area for which a tribal authority has been established ..." It means where a tribal authority is situated .
Clause 4 put and agreed to. Clauses 5 and 6 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, section 35 of the Proclamation is reconstructed and simplified by leaving out the formula to be applied by the electoral officer in determining the number of members for each The electoral officer shall , in acdivision. cordance with the provisions of section 26 of the Transkei Constitution Act, determine the number of members ofthe Legislative Assembly to be elected in respect of each electoral division. The existing formula in the Proclamation is also based on the relative provisions of the Constitution Act and may still be used, but it is not necessary to embody it in the Proclamation. According to section 26 of the Act there shall be 26 electoral divisions for the election of 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly ... MR. GUZANA : Is that the draft bill or is it the Act that has been passed ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: As amended and passed. The number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the relative number of voters in each electoral division. In accordance with the Proclamation , in making a determination of the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division, the following formula shall be applied : The total numbers of registered voters in the Transkei divided by 45 (that is , the 45 members elected to be in this Parliament), the total to be the number of registered voters per member to be elected. Now, to determine the number of elected members in each division, the total number of registered voters in that division divided by the number of registered voters per member to be elected. I will give an example. Say, for instance for argument's sake, the total number of registered voters in the Transkei is 12 , and the required number of elected members to be in this Parliament is 4. It means to say that the 12 (that is, the total number of registered voters in the Transkei ) will be divided by the 4 (the number of members to be in this Parliament) . In this case the total will be 3, which will be the number per each member elected. Say in Umtata the total number of registered voters is 6 , and we have already said that the number per member will be 3, so we divide that 6 by 3. The number then will be 2 to represent Umtata. MR. GUZANA: Supposing the total number of registered voters in Umtata is 2 ?
On Clause 7 MR. K.M. GUZANA : Under section 7 , Mr. Chairman, here we provide for the consolidation of the voters ' lists for the division. I take it that "division" refers to the district ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Umtata will have one representative nevertheless . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: There is provision that despite that , each and every district will have a member representing the district. I move the adoption of clause 9.
MR. GUZANA: I am wondering if, under this section, there could not be a provision which gives the voters an opportunity to scrutinize the voters ' list as compiled before it is finally closed. This matter was raised and I amthinking that probably it could have been included there .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , does it mean that when the population of the Transkei does grow will it also mean that the number of representative will be increased from 45 ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes ,
MR. ZIBI : Is it 45 for ever, even if the number
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No.
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had to double ?
MR . GUZANA: In view of the fact that each district must have a member coming from it to the Assembly, and that some districts may not qualify in terms of the quota, but must still have a member , whilst other districts may have a very thick concentration of voters qualifying them for six or seven candidates , but because each district must have a member they may have their number of candidates reduced from seven to four.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : As I have already pointed out, section 26 of the Constitution Act provides for 45 members to be elected to this Assembly. It stands to reason , therefore , that the number will always be 45 until such time as section 26 of the Constitution Act can be amended by the Republican Government. MR. ZIBI : As we are not voting by districts , how are you going to determine how many representatives they will be entitled to in each district?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It could not be so many, Say six. MR. GUZANA : Very well , it means that in that district the quota is higher than the quota obtained by dividing the number of voters by the number of elected members in the Legislative Assembly. I think then it must be put to the hon. Minister of the Interior that electoral divisions will have to be revised in the future so that we are not tied down by the district boundaries.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Ithink I have explained the formula in detail and even given the House examples . MR. ZIBI : Let us take Dalindyebo region. Say there are 8 voters in that region , or make it 20, if you like. How are you going to determine how many should belong to Engcobo , how many to Mqanduli and how many to Umtata?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You will not get that.
MR. GUZANA: Whether I get it or not, it is the sensible thing to do, because boundaries of constituencies are not necessarily boundaries of districts , and here you are going to have thickly populated districts placed at a disadvantage because of this requirement of allocating one member at least to each district and therefore it will be unfair to those thicklypopulateddistricts . I put this to the hon. the Minister of the Interior for him to think into.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: We shall use the same formula , Mr. Chairman. There are 26 districts in the Transkei . Umtata does not comprise Engcobo , Mqanduli , etc. Engcobo is a district of its own, so from the total number of registered voters in Engcobo the formula will apply as I have said. Ifthe hon. members have the Proclamation 142 of 1963, on page 12 of that Proclamation you will get the formula and you can go and do a bit of homework.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , this is the motion I refer to - Motion I will just read it: - "That No. 2 of last year. section 26 of the Transkei Constitution Act be substituted by the following : The 26 districts in the Transkei shall be electoral divisions for the election of the 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters in the various divisions , (now this is the interesting part) proIvided that each district shall have at least one member. " And the motion was seconded by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. GUZANA : So if every district must at least have one member , and you may have several districts falling below the quota of voters which qualify a district to have a member, another district which has a high concentration of voters may have to be denied its full number of members to which it will be entitled on the basis of the quota. Is the problem understood? Does it mean Now, how will you solve that? that a district with a high concentration of voters will have to give up the number of candidates it is entitled to send to the Legislative Assembly? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that I have already said to the hon. members that each district will be represented by a member in this Assembly , to my mind it would mean that first of all we will allocate each district with one member. That means 26 members , and thereafter we shall apply the formula. It might be possible , as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition says , that some districts will be robbed of a member in view of the fact that we want each and every district to be represented in the Assembly here . There is no way out because the number is fixed at 45 and we just have to stick to that at present.
MR. GUZANA: Yes , what is wrong with that? These people do not seem to understand what I am suggesting to them. The reading ofthat motion is not relevant to the matter which I have raised. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is. MR . GUZANA : We know that we insisted that each district at least should have a representaWe see the consequence of that tive here. decision because it will mean that some of the voters in an area which is thickly populated will lose a member or two.
MR. ZIBI : So that it is possible that a region may lose a member from the number they have now?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You said it should be in proportion to the number of voters .
MR. GUZANA: What we are putting to you is that some districts have a high concentration of voters .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : This is just what I said yesterday - that I appeal to the hon members to please hold meetings and request people to register. It will be to their advantage . (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you put it like that? MR. GUZANA : Because you know your mentality is chieftainship - bound and you want the districts to be overloaded with chiefs. What we are putting now is that in an election there must be constituencies and that the boundaries
MR. ZIBI : But regions with more members , such as Qaukeni and other large districts , may eventually be the only districts represented here and the others only have one.
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of constituencies need not necessarily coincide with the boundaries of the districts . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You will not get that. MR. GUZANA: Whether we do or not, it does not matter. If we hammer sense into senseless matter it does not help. But if we continue to have boundaries of constituencies coinciding with the boundaries of districts we shall be unfair to those districts where there is a thick concentration of population . If we are going to accept the fact that the voter has to express himself and be represented here adequately , then we must have a delimitation board to fix boundaries for the electoral divisions .
and Tabankulu. I am sure that six of those districts will probably have only one member each and all the other districts I am sure will not have less than two members. MR . GUZANA: These six districts you have mentioned will have at least one member because they will have the voters qualifying them for one member, or will it be because we have got to give them one member ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Because we have got to give them one , but as I say, there is hardly a district which has less than 10,000 voters . In all the by-elections we have held in the Transkei we have found that practically all the districts have more than 10,000 voters and most districts range from 20,000 to 35,000 voters . Only a few of the biggest districts have more than 35,000 votersfor example , the districts of Engcobo and Lusikisiki and St. Mark's , where the registration was thorough. I want to put it to you that this was your motion and the Republican Parliament has carried out your motion just as it is , and the Electoral Law Amendment Bill which we have before us will do nothing outside the scope of that motion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are wasting your breath. MR . GUZANA: We are putting that into your pipe and we want you to smoke that. (Interjections) Never mind those who have not the ears to hear - sans mind, sans sight, sans sense of hearing - let us leave them alone . This is your responsibility and it touches the voter because the voter is the foundation of the membership of this Assembly and the people must be satisfied there , if they are going to have any confidence in this House . You are not going to give castoroil to the child and think it is satisfied with it.
MR. GUZANA : We are concerned with its administration, that is why I ask how you are going to determine which electoral division will give up a member to make each district have one member.
MR. ZIBI : How are you going to avoid this malpractice , because any Government with ordinary common sense knows which constituencies are their strongholds ? Now, supposing with the distribution as suggested , the strength of voters in Nyanda region is such that they must lose a member. Will they not take that member and send him to Qaukeni region because that is a Government stronghold? (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It was very difficult when we had this motion before the Assembly. We knew what the consequences would be . It is highly probable that in Emigrant Tembuland we shall have only three members in this Assembly, and that in Nyanda region they may have five - two in Libode , two in Ngqeleni and one in Port St. John's .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman there is another question I want to put.
Now it means in MR. GUZANA: I agree. effect that you will be taking a member from one of those electoral divisions which has qualified for a certain number according to the quota , in order to make it possible for Port St. John's to Now, I want to know how you have a member. will determine which of these thickly populated areas with a large number of voters will give up the member that is going to be given to Port St. John's .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , fools can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.
MR. GUZANA: My question is - how are you going to determine what electoral division will give up a candidate in order to make it possible for each district to have at least one member ? I want a numerical answer to this question - not just theorizing.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: That can only be determined by the general registration .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , during the 1963 registration of voters we found that there were very few districts that had less than 20,000 voters . I will just give you the number of voters in each region, for your information:Dalindyebo Emboland Emigrant Tembuland Fingoland Gcalekaland Maluti Nyanda Qaukeni Umzimkulu
MR . GUZANA: The principle is the same. How is it going to be determined ? What principle will you use? THE CHIEF MINISTER: In proportion to the number of voters in the districts of the Transkei . Let us say we have about 14,000 voters in Port St. John's , and in Engcobo we have 46,000 voters . Now we shall multiply 14,000 by 2 to find out what would the position if Port St. John's had 28,000 voters as compared with Engcobo , then substract 28,000 from 46,000. Now we arrive at a position that Engcobo should have two members instead of three , so that Port St. John's has a member.
134,100 109,500 72,800 77,800 148,250 81,300 86,800 170,000 37,600
Those are the 1963 figures . Now , Mr. Chairman, it is highly improbable that any district will have less than 10,000 voters . You can say that the smallest district of the Transkei will have 10,000 plus. Now, there are districts which we are sure will have only one member of the Legislative Assembly, and these are Tsomo, Cala, Butterworth, Mount Ayliff, Port St. John's
MR. GUZANA: And Engcobo having an excess number, there may be Lusikisiki and Bizana also having an excess . Now, how are you going to decide which of these three districts will give up a member? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It will be done pro-
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portionately. In the 1963 elections we said the number should be 20,000 per member , and we That is why used that formula right through. you find Emigrant Tembuland with four members and Nyanda with four, although it has three districts and Emigrant Tembuland two districts. Now we will use that same formula.
On Clause 14 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , here is a point which strikes me now. The polling station shall be open from 7 in the morning until 6 in the evening in all the districts mentioned in section 2 - that is the districts of the Transkei - and in districts outside the Transkei the closing time will be 9 p.m. and that is being done in order to facilitate voting by workers . You have workers in the Transkei , in Umtata , in certain of these towns . Is it not possible to arrange for the polling station which is at the seat of the returning officer to keep open until later than 6 p.m. , because these people are working and they knock off at 5 or 5.30 ? There is a proviso that you may do that , Sir. All I want to know is whether it is in your mind to make it possible for these people who are working in the towns to have an extended time after 6 o'clock, because they are under the same disadvantages that are handicapping the voters in districts outside the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA: There may be two districts which may be entitled each to send four members . Port St. John's must have a member. Of those two districts from which you have got to take a member, how are you going to determine which of those will give up a member? THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not going to say a district must give up a member. The district will be given members according to the number of voters , using our quota. MR. GUZANA: Yes , now the quota gives district A four members , and district B four members ....
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I do not refute the argument of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , but I can only say in passing that in past years we have always requested the employers to release their people on this particular day. We have always received co-operation from them. I may even say that some of them - farmers , for instance - even transport their labourers from the farm to the polling station, but should there be any difficulty there is this proviso , as the hon . the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, that the the time may be extended.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : First of all we are going to allocate each of the 26 districts one member. Substract 26 from 45 and the balance will be distributed in accordance with the number of voters in the district. Districts with the highest number of voters will get the balance , when we have substracted 26. We are going to disregard what took place in 1963. MR. GUZANA: I think, Mr. Minister , you will have to do some explanation to me in your office . MR. ZIBI : Is it the understanding of the Minister that a member can contest a seat in any district?
MR. GUZANA: May I point out that men who are working at Vulindlela Factory during the last by-election got here at 6 p.m. and could not vote , So whilst the farmers are co- operative the Government is not so.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Yes .
Clause 9 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I was not aware of that but, as I say, there is a proviso that the time may be extended .
On Clause 10 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I read clause 10 (a) on page 3 with clause 11 (c) (4) . I would be happy if the hon. Minister will anticipate the debate by relating (a) in section 10 with (c) in section 11 .
MR. GUZANA: Will you exercise that proviso ? I would like to have an assurance that that will be done in respect of polling stations in the Transkei. That is what I want. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Yes , Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : (a) fix a day on which and the place and time at which a nomination court shall sit in each division or in the division concerned to receive nominations of candidates ...
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , can we have an explanation of the last three lines in paragraph (2 ) ?
MR . GUZANA : May I assist you to reply to me? Does it mean that the candidate must be nominated at the sitting of the nomination court?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : " Provided that for the purpose of identifying any such voter the presiding officer may take possession of his reference book. " It may happen that at exactly 6 o'clock there are about 10 to 15 people already at the polling station. Nowthis proviso enables the presiding officer to collect the reference books of those people who happen to have been there at 6 o'clock for the purposes of closing the poll. Then even if it is after 6 o'clock those who already have their reference books with the presiding officer may carry on and vote.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No. MR. GUZANA: It merely sits on that day to receive nominations ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes . MR. GUZANA : Now in regard to 11 (c) (4) , does it mean that before nomination day but after the notice fixing the date when the nomination court will sit a nomination can be made ?
Clause 14 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes.
On Clause 15
Clause 10 put and agreed to .
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , Iwonder ifthe hon. member has got a blank ballot paper before him ?
Clauses 11 , 12 and 13 put and agreed to.
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outside the polling station. he will be thrown out.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No , I don't have a blank ballot paper as these were rarely used, if at all . We never used any. This was merely to show the members that a blank paper will not have the particulars that appear here. In other words , it will only be the square whereby, in such places where there are less than one hundred registered voters , the presiding officer will fill in the blank form when handing it to the voter. This in one way will assist us in saving unnecessary time and printing expenses and on the other hand we will not have to send out 26 different kinds of forms to a place where there are only one hundred registered voters.
If he does it inside
CHIEF NDAMASE : The candidate is entitled to appoint an agent who has a certificate TC.15 from outside , and another agent who has TC.15 and TC.16 will be sworn in. TC.16 is used by This amendment is a good thing all officers . for every member of the Assembly because the Government party has challenged some of the presiding officers only because they suspected they favoured the Democratic Party - not that they have proved it. I hope , therefore , the Government members will not turn down this amendment because it will definitely help the Democratic Party because they are not present when the polling officers are appointed. The Democratic Party candidate should see what is happening in the polling station .
MR. GUZANA: Does the blank ballot paper bear a number corresponding with the counterfoil? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Yes , certainly.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon members , I second the amendment.
MR . GUZANA: You see , blank means blank, with nothing on it. That is why I am asking.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member has misinterpreted section 44 of the Proclamation. There is a difference between a polling station and a polling booth. The section that is not quoted refers to polling stations and does not refer to polling booths . I think yesterday I made myself clear by saying that I am not at all going to agree to our having agents in the polling booth.
Clause 15 put and agreed to. On Clause 16 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment : " In section 16, sub- section (2 ) insert the words ' and candidate or candidates or agents of such candidates' between the words 'witnesses ' and ' read '. " The reason for this amendment is because we wish that the agents to these candidates should see what is going on. Arrangements have been made for a candidate to be present in the polling station. If the candidate cannot be there there is provision in Proclamation 142 of 1963 that the candidate may appoint an agent to represent him outside or inside the polling station. Subsection 44 (2) of the same Proclamation provided that the candidate should do that in his absence , and Act No. 8 of 1965 amended that to delete the words " in the absence of such candidate" , to enable the candidate to be present whether the agent is there or not. One has suggested that the candidates are not supposed to be present, but I am trying to make it clear that they can be present . The presiding officers and all the other officials first take the oath before entering the polling station , and the same with the candidates and agents who wish to enter, so that whatsoever they have seen inside the polling station may not be discussed by them outside . That is why I have moved this amendment to enable the candidate or the agent to see what is happening when an illiterate voter goes to vote , and to see if the polling officer has placed the X in the right place after the voter has told him for whom he wishes to vote. You may ask why we do not trust these polling officers . I do trust some of them, but there are others we cannot trust. These polling officers are nominated by the magistrate and the magistrate is there to see to the policy of the Government, and those who do not understand show that they favour one party. (Interjections) The hon. member asks whether the magistrate of Ngqeleni is like that. No , he is not, but I know of a certain magistrate who favoured the Government side and he actually went into the queues of the voters speaking in favour of a certain candidate . I can say that because I am at liberty to say that here . I do not think there is anything wrong with this amendment because it is there to protect every member. (Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Why? booth.
There is no
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I admit that in certain areas they do not have booths , but the presiding officer with the two witnesses usually go into a corner far from the hearing of other people. My contention is that these two witnesses are supposed to be impartial . MR. GUZANA: I am glad you use the word "supposed" to be. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: .... and in view of the fact that my Department has not as yet received any complaints about witnesses I cannot really understand how anyone can say they are not impartial.
MR. GUZANA: Will you accept it that in some of the polling stations the presiding officer tells the witnesses to keep off because the affair is secret? Others ask the candidate to whisper it into their ear . That is the sort of thing that is happening. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : That is improper. MR. GUZANA: It is improper but we have never been able to stop that. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : But it has never been reported. If any member notices such a thing it should be reported at once . If you just keep quiet and come after the election and tell me, what am I going to do about it ? The correct thing is for the presiding officer to be together with the two witnesses when the person is casting his vote . In short, I am not in agreeYou may ment with the amendment as such. speculate and say this and that happened , but as I say, it is your duty to report it immediately you see it. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, would
MR. GUZANA: The agent is free to canvass
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the hon. Minister give a further explanation of section 16 ( 2) "Such presiding officer or polling officer • • ..shall thereafter fold the ballot paper and place it in the ballot box. " That means it will be done after the voter has put the cross Now, I maintain that the on the voting paper. voting paper belongs to the voter. The presiding officer will only attach the mark and ought to return the marked paper to the voter and the voter should drop the paper into the box.
constituency seeking election ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes . MR. GUZANA : I think that is out of the question . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We had that at the last elections . MR. GUZANA: The constituencies were smaller.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, there are many ways of folding the paper . Supposing you take a person who is a "qaba" and you tell him to fold that paper.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. T.H. BUBU: He must be shown by the presiding officer .
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When is he going to finish if he has got to do that?
The debate on the Transkei Electoral Law Amendment Bill was resumed .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Secondly, Mr. Chairman, the slit in the ballot box is so small that with some of these illiterate people , before they can actually manage to put the paper inside it will be mutilated . I see nothing wrong therefore, in the ballot paper being folded by the presiding officer in the presence of the voter and the witnesses and placing it in the box. • The presiding officer will be there , the voter will be there , and the two witnesses .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Sir , we were dealing with this question of eliminating the partiality of the presiding officer since the secret of the ballot has been destroyed , since he has to know beforehand for whom the voter is casting his vote , and the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase seeks these words to be put in so that there is a check there upon the presiding officer himself and his witnesses who are not usually at their duty. The Government must concede that it nominates or appoints the presiding officer; it nominates the polling officer ; and when we seek this amendment to be put in we want justice to be seen to be done to those who have no hand in the nomination of the presiding officer and the polling officer . The parties who are interested and directly concerned withthe election are still asking questions as to why certain polling officers were disqualified after being nominated by the magistrates of the various districts , and if there is no answer to that question then we are forced to the conclusion that it is because the Government did not favour them because they suspected their political allegiance . It has been suggested that there may be too many agents and too many candidates in the polling room, but I think the Government can obviate that difficulty and if the Government does not welcome this amendment , then it must give us some other alternative which will assuage our suspicions and sense of uneasiness about the voting process as it has been carried on up to the present moment. The hon. Chief Majeke has suggested that the illiterate voter should exercise his right to fold the voting paper and place it in the ballot box. I do not see why that should not be done . We do not need a man to be literate before he can do that , and since he would not have been a participant in the marking of his paper, at least let him have the satisfaction of handling his own ballot paper and dropping it into the ballot box and say : I have voted there . Later on I shall speak to sub- section (3) of that section 16.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : Your two witnesses . MR. GUZANA: If I am correct , Mr. Chairman, we had this amendment by the hon. Chief D. D.P. Ndamase . The essence of voting by ballot is to ensure secrecy. Either it is secret or it is not secret. If there be any person who knows how you wish to vote than the secrecy has been broken completely and that happens when you have an illiterate voter whose X mark is made by the presiding officer. As soon as that happens we have to guard against the danger inherent in the person who has broken the secrecy which attaches to the ballot vote , therefore we are finding devices whereby we limit the degree to which the presiding officer may allow his own corruption to defeat the intention of the illiterate voter. Now, the Government seeks to have two witnesses as a safeguard , supposed to be impartial, and yet we have found that these witnesses fail to do their duty - namely, to guard against the corruption of the presiding officer . Now all these people - the voter , the presiding officer and the two witnesses - are engaged in an act which relates to the candidate , and the candidate is partial in a particular direction , together with his agent, so that if you have these agents or the candidates seeing what is supposed to be done by the presiding officer then you have an impartial situation created . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Supposing there are 33 candidates - do you have that conglomeration all in one cubicle ?
The amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was lost by 31 votes to 56 after a division as follows :-
MR . GUZANA: If you have 33 candidates in a
NOES.
AYES .
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile . Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Mosesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa 406.
Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota 2. R.B. Msengana
Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Z.V. Ndarala Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. M. Dumalisile .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have two amendments by the hon. Revd. B.S. Rajuili to clause 16 .
cannot speak by word of mouth but has to whisper, that speaking softly into the ear of the polling officer should not only be heard by one person.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, before speaking to the amendment may I first of all make it clear that the words " in the hearing of two witnesses" should come after the words " presiding officer" where they appear for the second time . Mr. Chairman, I have to bring this amendment unless we can come to some understanding with the hon. Minister concerned . There can be no gainsaying that a very high percentage ofthe people going to the polls do not know what to do. According to this section the voter incapable of casting his vote properly • is supposed to whisper .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get "whispering"? MR . RAJUILI: The hon. chiefs come here like a driven wheelbarrow. They never contest elections . (Laughter) We have fought the elections and have got into the polling stations and You find some seen what takes place there . ladies here , writing, and some important looking person at the further end of the rondavel, and some so-called witnesses in another corner. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What are they witnessing?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No , there is no such thing.
MR. RAJUILI : That's right - what are they witnessing?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Why are the witnesses there if they cannot hear what is said?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are supposed to hear, that's why they are there .
MR. GUZANA: They are sent away by the presiding officer.
MR. RAJUILI: You find that is being done for the first time and the same people will not do that work next time. The conditioned res-
MR. RAJUILI: What I mean is that when he 407.
name that voter has asked for.
ponse of the Kaffir to the Europeans is that they don't want to worry that person. I wish I could be one of the witnesses at the next elections . (Interjections) Some of them really did their work properly, and then you find some of these Kaffir officers who do not know what they are supposed to do. They do not like anybody to come near them , that is why we feel they must ,speak by word of mouth in the ear of these witnesses so that when he goes to make his mark these people can see that he is marking the name as given by the voter.
The amendment was put and lost by 31 votes to 54. MR . RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in regard to the other amendment, I think the hon. Minister explained earlier in the day and, besides , I think in the amendment quite a lot of discussion went into it so I will withdraw it.
Agreed to. MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I am worried by sub-section ( 3) for I think the intention of having witnesses in the voting booth is to make the voting as effective as possible and that it should indeed express what the voter seeks to be expressed by the mark on the ballot paper . Our effort therefore is to assist him in all directions , to the extent that he has , as much as it is possible with all its limitations , to convey tothe presiding officer and his two witnesses what he believes or what he is persuaded to believe is the best candidate to vote for.
MR. T.H. BUBU: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I need only refer the hon. member to sub-section (2) of the same clause , the first two lines . That is all I can say. If he does not understand , Mr. Chairman, in sub- section ( 1) it says : "Any voter who is incapable of voting in the prescribed manner may request the presiding officer or any polling officer authorized thereto by the presiding officer to mark his ballot paper on his behalf." Sub-section (2) says : "Such presiding officer or polling officer shall thereupon, with due regard to the maintenance of secrecy and in the presence of two witnesses ... It is quite clear. There is nowhere where it says such voter should whisper into the ear of the presiding officer. The two witnesses have to hear what the voter says and see what the presiding officers do. "In the presence of two witnesses " embodies the seeing and hearing of what is happening .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Or is coerced into thinking. MR. GUZANA: If the hon. Minister says " or what he has been corced into thinking" - well he knows best about that. (Laughter) Now, in 1963 there were many candidates who offered for election and the electoral divisions coincided with the regional division , so that people had about six or seven names to remember to vote for, and the teams that were prepared by the candidates who clubbed together assisted tremendously in making the process of voting (Interjections) During the Gcaleka byeasy. election, the Umzimkulu and Fingoland by-election and the Dalindyebo , Nyanda and Qaukeni byelections the different parties issued chits of paper carrying the names of the candidates sponsored by the party. An unscrupulous party, for instance , went to the extent of writing " Ah, Jonguhlanga ! Vote for Mtirara " ; " Ah , Bekizulu ! Vote for Bokleni " . (Laughter ) Now, I do feel that these chits of paper do assist the people who are illiterate , though I must confess that the distinctive colour of the Opposition papers subjected those who carried them to a lot of hardship by the chiefs not supporting that party. Now, we would like to see these papers recognized . All that need be done is , when an illiterate voter presents the chit of paper , he should be asked what is this paper signifying and he will state that it signifies the person for whom he wishes He brings that chit of paper , he has to vote . made his selection and has identified himself with the candidate whose name appears on the chit of paper .
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I have to stand up after an explanation is made if it is in keeping with what I want. I am under no obligation to accept it. If I follow this well .. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You don't that is the trouble . MR. RAJUILI : ...the presiding officer shall have been told to mark the ballot paper on behalf of this person. That ends that first paragraph , and that is a complete thought in itself. Now, in the second sub- section the witnesses merely see him do that which he has been told , which they do not know. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Speak on sub- section (1). MR. RAJUILI : I was talking on sub- section (1) and you dragged me into sub- section (2 ) . That is why I feel that at the time when he tells the officer the candidates for which he wants to cast a vote, it must at the same time be in the hearing of these two people . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You want the candidate to be there.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Can't they remember two names ?
MR. RAJUILI : The two witnesses in subsection (2) are witnessing the action of which they do not know the truth . (Interjections ) I have been putting up with your nonsense for some time. Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Minister of Agriculture must stop insulting us here . (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA : To prove that they cannot, during this last by-election an old lady came to the polling station and said she wanted to The vote for Paramount Chief Jonguhlanga . presiding officer said : " There are these names and you have to vote for one of these. " He read the names out to her. Well , she walked out of the polling room and said : "If the name of Paramount Chief Jonguhlanga is not there I am not voting for anybody. " ( Laughter) Now , if this lady had received a chit of paper and was asked to identify the candidate she wished to vote for , with the name appearing on the chit of paper , that voter would have been able to cast her vote .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. RAJUILI : We are trying to show that here you get the officer told by the voter and what is witnessed is the marking of the name only . The witness can just see the officer has marked some name and they do not know which
408 .
To think that the people will (Interjections) remember these names is really wishful thinking. (Interjections)
people.
MR. GUZANA: At least they voted for him. You were not even voted for.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the hon. Mr. Majija was able to go round wielding a big stick and saying that anybody who voted for the Government candidate would be killed.
MR. GUZANA : Now supposing Lusikisiki has four seats - the governing party has four candidates , the Opposition has four candidates , the Freedom Party has four candidates. There are twelve names in all, and that is not taking into account the independent candidate . How do you expect this illiterate man or woman to remember the selection of four out of about a minimum of twelve candidates ?
OPPOSITION MEM BER: At Qamata they were actually assaulted.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : This provision is quite fair and the candidates should go out and make themselves known to the voters .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : She need only remember four. MR. GUZANA : Is it because it costs the Government a lot of money that it has decided to cut this out?
MR. GUZANA : Experience has shown that even educated people get into the polling booth and and by the way, say: " Iam voting for A, B and C who is the other candidate for the Democratic This really nullifies the purpose of Party?" voting. We suggested symbols to this Government, and they turned it down, because we are thinking ofthe greater number of illiterate voters to literate . Now the Government seeks to legislate and declare these illegal or of no consequence.. I would like to know why the Government seeks to have this chit of paper which assisted the people eliminated .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Government took great pains to go to the people and put their policy before them. (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , as representatives of the people we on this side feel for the position of the people in the respective constituencies . If we think in terms of a constituency where the people are predominantly illiterate , such as Engcobo district, where they must remember perhaps three candidates , what will the people do when they do not remember the names of the people they want to vote for? And what happens in a case such as that which occurred in the Maluti region where two brothers were engaged in one election, and as it happened also in the Qaukeni region?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this subsection was thoroughly considered by the Government and for obvious reasons , which are known to the Opposition members, we decided that we should insert in this Bill the provision that these papers should be done away with. MR. GUZANA: What are the reasons ?
MR. GUZANA: And a Minister of Agriculture stole the votes of Madikizela . A voter says he wants to vote for Madikizela and when he is asked which one he says he does not know. We are It is possible trying to avoid that confusion. again that there is that vicious group , the Sons of the Transkei , who seem to be attached to the Government . Those are the people who are
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We found that the candidates on the Opposition benches did not even care to address meetings and they did not even care to be known by the voters because they threatened the people that their huts would be set on fire and they would be killed if they voted for the Government, and, as a matter of fact, they actually coerced the voters on polling day.
going to print papers for the Government party candidates . In other words , you are seeking
MR. GUZANA: Look behind you and see the faces that tell the tale .
to use some weapon against us and we are not allowed to use it against you.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They said that if anybody did not have pink papers that person would be killed.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: No one will bring papers.
MR . GUZANA: Now you are talking with your tongue in your cheek. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We know that the Opposition is comprised of people of various thoughts. The hon. the Minister of Education usually gives them names and calls them "platannas" , etc. (Interjections ) We know perfectly well that Communist tactics are the order ofthe day as far as the Opposition is concerned and one of their chief tactics is to threaten the people that if they should support the Government they Now, this will be fair enough. will be killed . The voter will go in and say that he wants to vote for So- and so, and the Government has simplified the procedures in that the constituencies are now districts . Surely a man who seeks election should go to the people and be acquainted with them . The hon. member across the floor did not even go to Engcobo. He just came to this House without even being known to the
MR . GUZANA: Your candidates will carry them and we will be told they are from the Sons of the Transkei. What is wrong in any person having a paper and saying he wants to vote for the people listed there? ( Interjections ) So seriously asking, Mr. Chairman, I want an answer to this . We are aware that a vicious chief or headman may still get to some polling station and take away these papers and give them the Government papers . It is still possible , but be that as it may, we are trying to obviate the position for the people who have never been to What will happen if we do find that the school. Government candidates have papers and those papers are purported to come from the Sons of the Transkei ? There is also the question of They have already the information officers . started educating people on the candidates that will stand for the Government in the next election. ( Interjections )
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
409.
MR. GUZANA: Then there is this accusation that we do not go to the people. Who on the
MR. LUWACA: Ifthe hon. Minister understood well what I meant, I am talking about the returning officer and his duties of nominating presiding officers .
Government side goes to the people , except that the information officers do go there on their behalf? Mr. Chairman, Mr. Minister, please reconsider your decision.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It has nothing to do with this .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I move the adoption of clause 16.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. member must sit down. Your point is ineffective .
MR. GUZANA: One question, please . If an educated man goes into the polling booth with a list of names of the people for whom he is going to vote, is that paper going to be disqualified?
Clause 18 put and agreed to.
Clauses 19 and 20 put and agreed to . On Clause 21
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : No. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I can just explain in brief that the card TC.1 for men and TC.1 (a) for women is being amended. Where in the original card it had "Name in full " , the amendment seeks to have "Forenames in full " and then " Surname " . Then the registering officer had to fill in his name . That is a waste of time and the regis-
MR. GUZANA: If that is not disqualified , why can't an illiterate person come along with a piece of paper and he is disqualified? THE
CHIEF
MINISTER:
Who
said that?
Clause 16 put and agreed to by 54 votes to 36.
tering officer now just has to write his name because he is not the one who is going to be registered , so he just puts his signature .
Clause 17 put and agreed to. On Clause 18
MR. GUZANA: What are you going to do where the voter has the mark in his reference book and his name does not appear on the roll?
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , although I am not against these words "returning officer" there is one important matter inthis connection. We regard the chief returning officer as having the whole electoral law in his hands and it would be very useful if he could explain to the presiding officers under him what to do, as well as the witnesses . As far as the presiding officers in the polling stations are concerned , you often find that the returning officer has not explained fully.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: What section are you dealing with? MR . GUZANA : With the schedule . Now the voter has registered and his reference book shows he has been registered , but in the final list his name does not appear - what are you going to do about that? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I don't understand, Mr. Chairman, because if his name is filled in on the card his name should appear on the voters ' list.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think we are dealing with section 18. I see nowhere where it refers to presiding officers . It is merely the deletion of " chief returning officer" for the returning officer . I submit that the hon. member is out of order .
MR. GUZANA: It happened many times with the last by-elections that the names did not appear .
MR. LUWACA: Perhaps the hon. Minister has not understood my point. I am deducing my point from the substitution of " returning officer " for "chief returning officer" .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I think in some cases it was the mistake of the magisterial officers . The cards get filled in and they delay in sending them, or don't send them at all . You get people who are not serious about their work and the name does not appear either on the voters ' lists or on the supplementary list , but we are now going to make certain that the people who have registered will appear on the voters' lists.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It is quite simple. The chief returning officer will no longer be necessary .
MR. LUWACA: No , in my experience , especially during the last by-elections , the returning officers do not explain their duties to the presiding officers as they should.
Clause 21 put and agreed to. Clauses 22 and 23 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Under what section are you discussing?
The long title and the whole Bill put and agreed to.
MR. LUWACA: Section 18. The returning officer is the head of the presiding officer. Don't you understand? He allocates them their duties during the elections .
House Resumed
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: There is no mention of presiding officers or polling officers in this section of the Proclamation.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Bill to amend Proclamation 142 of 1963 has been agreed to by the House without amendment.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I can see that the hon. member's difficulty is that he has not got the copy of the Proclamation.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will take place tomorrow, 16th June .
410 .
TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAW BILL SECOND READING
immutable. But he must say he has nothing to reply to the debate .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Liquor Bill be read a second time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What rule are you quoting?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. THE CHAIRMAN: The debate on the second reading is not concluded. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He has finished it now. THE CHAIRMAN: We shall carry on with it tomorrow. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I think you should appreciate that you called upon the hon. the Minister of justice to reply. THE CHAIRMAN: Has he replied ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : He has replied and moved. He cannot be compelled to reply if there is nothing for him to say. THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that is right. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot force a Minister to reply. He has replied by moving. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall ask him tomorrow. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has said he has nothing to reply. He is moving the second reading of the Bill.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is out of order. You must follow procedure. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Ithink the hon. Minister has followed procedure . (Interjections ) OPPOSITION MEMBER : Name him , Mr. Chairman. He cannot argue with the Chair. THE CHAIRMAN: He has not replied and he must follow procedure.
THE CHAIRMAN: If you look at item 7 on the order paper, it says " Second Reading : Transkei Liquor Law Bill" and then item 8 is the committee stage. This was wrong. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I am glad you have drawn the attention of the House to that defect. I came here this morning prepared to reply, but I was a bit puzzled when I saw this in the order paper. Now I shall reply. I want first of all to comment on the remarks made by the hon. member for Gcalekaland , Mr. I think his remarks were very apt Busakwe . Much mention was made that I was yesterday. a teetotaller, but I shall not deny those who want the right to drink as a responsible Minister . I want to emphasize first of all that the Transkei Constitution Act provides for legislation in liquor only in the Transkei , excluding White spots which are in the Transkei but outside the scope of the Constitution. Mention was made of one or two of our people who have been granted licences to trade in towns, but they were given those licences under Proclamation No. 177 of 1962. Eventually, however , when these White spots come under the Transkei Constitution this law which I am now introducing will apply. There was a great deal of talk also about the Xhosa Development Corporation. Ifthe Xhosa Development Corporation itself establishes a brewery in any of the White spots for the sale and supply of Bantu beer it will do so under the provisions of the Bantu Beer Act of 1962 of the Republic. Out side the White spots anyone can apply for a I wish briefly now to reply to the licence. challenge thrown to me by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The Minister will act on the recommendation of the Liquor Board as to which At this stage that party to give the licence. Board is not yet in existence so there is no question of choosing between the Xhosa Development Corporation and the true Xhosa Development Corporation.
MR. GUZANA: If the Board recommends , are you bound by the recommendation?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If you please , Sir, I want to put certain observations to you as Chairman of the House. There is not a single Minister who is compelled to reply to useless and irrelevant observations .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , if I act contrary to the recommendation of the Board I can be sued as an individual .
THE CHAIRMAN: What rule is that? MR. GUZANA : Sued for what?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If the Minister has nothing to say, are you going to force him ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : For making the wrong decision .
THE CHAIRMAN : No , I am not forcing him , I am following procedure.
MR. GUZANA: If you act on the recommendation , you are in effect a rubber stamp .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What section is that? MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the ruling of the Chair because the second reading debate was adjourned.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes . MR . GUZANA: Well , they put it in doubtful language, instead of saying thatthe Minister will rubber-stamp the decision of the Board. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct. We agreed with that, but if the hon. Minister does not wish to reply all he has to do is to say he has nothing to say in reply to the debate and then he sits down. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the Transkei Liquor Bill be read a second time .
MR. GUZANA: If there is nothing to reply, there is nothing, and so he sits like a Sphinx,
MR. R. MSENGANA: I second , Mr. Chairman.
411 .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, through an error when I read this bill I looked through the list at "d" and did not see "development corporation " . However I see that it is included under "t" and I will therefore withdraw.
Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage?
Clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Tomorrow morning, Mr. Chairman.
On Clause 3 MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, sub- section (2) relates to the failure of the issuing officer to record on any licence the particulars referred to in sub- section (1) . It appears that the licensee will not, by reason of that failure , be relieved of the obligations and duties and restrictions falling upon him which should have been endorsed on that licence. Now, if he is not in the know because the endorsement has not been made on the licence , is he likely to be made criminally liable for any omission or breach of those restrictions which have not been specifically endorsed on his licence , and if so would that not be unfair to him?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 16th June , 1967 .
FRIDAY, 16TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the attention of hon. members is drawn to item 143 on page 329 of the minutes. The amendment is recorded as having been lost by 57 votes to 31 after a division when in fact the said amendment was lost by 56 votes to 31.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It cuts both ways . He will not be deprived of the rights . MR. GUZANA : Yes , I am told it cuts both ways, but the penalties here are very heavy. I,: in my own view, feel that whilst he is subject to those restrictions he should not be punished for breaking those restrictions if, by a clerical omission, the licensing officer has not endorsed those restrictions on his licence , and that the procedure should be merely the correction of that omission rather than a punitive measure against the licensee .
MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman , in the list of names in the division my name does not appear on the Opposition side . Ijust wonder what the tellers have done? THE CHAIRMAN: But you were counting, hon. member. It is your fault. MR. DUMALISILE : I was counting on the Government side . THE
CHAIRMAN :
That has
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, at the meeting of the Board the licence-holder is told of those things . He knows about them , or his representative is told , so that even though this is not endorsed by the official concerned he is in the know.
been noted .
The minutes of the previous day were, after amendment, taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI ELECTORAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL THIRD READING
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I would be satisfied if his knowledge derived from the sitting of the Board were adequate , but it is required that the licensing officer should endorse these onthe licence . In other words , I do not think this is done just by way of memorandum , but that the licensee should have a written record of these restrictions appearing on his licence.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Bill to amend Proclamation No. R.142 of 1963 be read a third time. THE
MINISTER
OF
JUSTICE : I second.
Agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is just in the case of an oversight .
The Bill was read a third time. MR. GUZANA : My point is that if there is such an oversight then the licensee should not be rendered criminally liable for breaking a restriction which has not been endorsed on his licence as a result of an oversight by the licensing officer . Itake the point up because the sanctions provided in this Bill are so heavy, and an oversight should be corrected rather than that the licensee should face a heavy fine for not observing a restriction which should have been endorsed on his licence but for an omission or clerical error on the part of the licensing officer .
TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAW BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now resolve itself into committee . MR. R. MSENGANA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We now have the Transkei Liquor Bill before us to consider . There are amendments here to be considered , the first one by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase in Chapter 1 , to include the words "development corporation" so that it be defined so that it becomes (xvi) and definitions increased to (liii). I shall call on the hon. member to move.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How can a person be expected to face a heavy fine for an omission by an officer? You see , this is to prevent unscrupulous persons from taking advantage of an omission. MR. GUZANA : Now if that is the intention, Sir, why is the licensing officer not liable to punishment, because of his omission?
412 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The officers are always liable to disciplinary action you know that. MR . GUZANA : I have received here a more reasonable explanation than the one you give me. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Tell us what it is . MR. GUZANA: Disciplinary action against a licensing officer is not equivalent to a R200 fine. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Tell us about the reasonable explanation .
MR. GUZANA : I am advised here that under section 4 the certificate which is delivered to the licence-holder who then takes out the licence contains all the restrictions. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In any event it remains as it is despite that. MR . GUZANA : Well , he will be having a written record of the restrictions and will not have to rely on his memory. He cannot plead forgetfulness because the certificate which authorizes him to get the licence has all the conditions which must apply to that licence. MR. H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, may we have motivation on (c)? THE MINISTEROF EDUCATION: It is clear. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I have nothing to say, Mr. Chairman. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : We want an explanation. MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, we would like a thorough explanation here as to what "class " and " race " mean. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think the word "class" is included in the definitions , on It means , when used in relation to page 2. persons, any number of persons of the same race having any other characteristic in common. MR. MADIKIZELA: I am puzzled by the term "characteristics " . What does it imply? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Having broad noses , for instance . (Laughter) MR . MADIKIZELA : The word " race" is clear. There is a White man and a Black man, but under that what does the term " characteristics" mean? GOVERNMENT MEMBER: It is in the definitions.
explain the meaning of "class" . MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , paragraph (c) of sub- section 3 (1 ) says that every licence shall be in the prescribed form and shall contain a statement (c) as to the race or class of persons to whom liquor may be sold or supplied under the licence . "Race" is clear enough, but our difficulty then is about the phrase "class of persons". We want to know what it connotes . Then the hon. Minister refers us to the section on definitions. This is sub- section (xiv ) where it says: " class" means , when used in relation to persons , any number of persons of the same race having any other characteristic in common. " Our difficulty then in this connection arises with the use of the phrase " any other characteristic in common". So the definition does not help us in our original difficulty of "class of persons" . Consequently we must request the hon. Minister to motivate and explain fully. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : My information is that at hotels there are found certain classes of persons. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : My information is to the effect that different classes of persons are to be found at hotels, and consequently certain rules are made for distribution to such persons of liquor . Some people who reside at hotels are Bantu people , some are White , still others are just temporary visitors . The word "class" refers to such divisions . MR. W. MADIKIZELA: In hotels owned by Bantu people (I take it that the Bill refers to Bantu hotels ) does this mean we shall have a portion of the hotel set aside for the Bantu people and another for the European people ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Certainly. MR. MADIKIZELA : But we are told that the Europeans will leave the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But they are still here now. We are making these provisions as long as they are still here. MR . MADIKIZELA : Now we are told in this Bill that we must put a division in our own establishments in addition to the division we must make with regard to land . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are talking nonsense now. MR . MADIKIZELA : Even if it is nonsense it Please make is creating a difficulty for me. In a hotel I will have this matter clear. apartments for the Bantu people and others for the White people ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We have gone past You are talking about definitions that section. and we have dealt with that. MR. L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman, we were asking for motivation from the hon. the Minister of Justice. He speaks of characteristics and we want an explanation as to what that word implies. THE DEPUTY "race" or " class" . 1?
CHAIRMAN: But we have Why take us back to Chapter
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes. MR. MADIKIZELA : And if on any day there should be no European customers , that portion set aside for them will not be used at all. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In a Bantu hotel we may not have Europeans but we may have different classes of Bantu themselves. We may have the residents in a hotel and we may also have visitors , and so the word " class" is used.
MR . MAZWI : The Minister was asked to
Clause 3 put and agreed to. 413.
African to serve on the Board?
Clause 4 put and agreed to. On Clause 5
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, I find myself now in more difficulty from the reply of the hon. Minister. It is now quite clear that this Board will consist of White officials .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my amendment to this clause is based on a fear we have . The Tender Board is composed of Europeans entirely, and likewise the Health Committee , but at the same time we are told we are being trained to run our own affairs . The members of the Board are mentioned in this section. There will be the Secretary of Justice , who will be the Chairman, and two officers , one of whom will be a magistrate . At the present moment we have no Bantu magistrates . The third member of this Board I think will also be a European, so that the Board will be composed of three Europeans . My question is : When shall the time come when we shall form the members of the Board and manage our own affairs ? Hence my emphasizing that the other member should be a Transkei citizen. If I could be assured that the third member of the Board will be a Bantu then perhaps I may feel satisfied . I would like to give an opportunity to the hon. Minister to motivate on this .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Howdo you come to that conclusion? MR. MADIKIZELA : Because there is no Bantu Secretary or magistrate .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And the other member? MR. MADIKIZELA : The hon. Minister has now told us he will use his own discretion, but I would like to know why he does not make a decision now. He says that these seconded officials are here to teach us. I accept that, but if it is said that people are being trained , the one who is trained should be beside the teacher. If some of the members are to be trained to be members of this Board there should be one or two sitting on the Board to be trained . Even in the class you never find the teacher in the classroom and the pupil outside , nor the teacher in the classroom and the pupil in the home.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this measure is for Transkeain citizens . The present occupation of posts by seconded officers is a temporary measure . (Interjections) During the transition period and until all the occupants of the posts in the Government service are Transkeian citizens , it is not necessary to differentiate in legislation. In any event, the additional members of the Board will be nominated by the Minister who will be at liberty to nominate an officer who is a Transkeian citizen. The matter should therefore be left to the Minister's discretion. I assure the hon. member that the third member will be an African and I think by November we may have African magistrates , in which case the door will be open to them too.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What about television? MR. MADIKIZELA : That is similar to what is being done here. (Interjections ) If it is true that the white people will control liquor for the whole of the Transkei they have no experience of the areas where the Bantu people reside in the villages . That is why there is this amendment to try and have a non- European to learn. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I think a great deal of time is being wasted unnecessarily. I give the assurance that the third member will be an African, and there may be two Africans . The Board does not sit until November and I do not see what training is needed for one to be a member of a liquor board.
MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, while I am loth to speak on this matter , because I have noticed that the moment I begin to speak they already get drunk and I can see the Ministers already feel excited, we have been told , Sir , in regard to this temporary measure for the last four years that everything is temporary.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry the mover of the amendment is not here . I was going to ask him if he wishes to withdraw.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have been given an assurance now.
MR. G.S. DANA : Mr. Chairman , he asked me to say that he is withdrawing.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the seconder agree ?
MR. RAJUILI : We have been given assurances by this Government , but very few, if any, have materialized, but as people of good faith we always will take them at their word. My worry is that there does not seem to have been any training . In fact , even the Ministers up to this day, after four years , still receive I don't know how many papers from behind them . They have hardly trained themselves. Are there any special qualifications for any African to be on this Board, because in all the others we have been told about some vacuum of qualifications . Are there any qualifications , or will it be at a time when the Minister thinks perhaps that the temporary measure can be filled up by an African?
MR. RAJUILI : Yes , Mr. Chairman. MR. L.T.MAZWI : Mr. Chairman , I seconded the amendment and I did not second the withdrawal.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the mover and the House agree to this amendment being withdrawn? OP POSITION MEMBER: The mover is not here . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, Mr. Dana spoke on behalf of the mover and I think he indicated the mover's intentions quite clearly, so there is nothing ambiguous about it.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I said the African magistrates are being trained. MR. RAJUILI: I am accepting that hope for hope's sake , but I am interested in this. Are there any qualifications required for an
Agreed to.
414.
Clause 5 put and agreed to.
evidence in the application one member of the two that formed the quorum becomes incapacitated , either by illness or otherwise , and the applicant was looking forward to getting a decision on his application. He finds that the application has to be postponed because there is no provision to the effect that one member can make a decision on the application . This , however, is a very rare occurrence and, as the hon. Minister pointed out, it is meant for the assistance and benefit of the applicant, for that very lengthy application to be decided upon even by the remaining lone member of the Board. I quite appreciate the remarks that have been put forward by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, but, as I have said , this is one of those One thing I things that might be very rare . cannot appreciate is his submission that there is no provision under which an applicant can apply for a postponement of the hearing of his application. There is, in fact , no need for such a provision to be incorporated in the Bill.
Clauses 6 to 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is an amendment here by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , but he is not here . Itherefore put the question. Clause 9 put and agreed to. Clauses 10 to 12 put and agreed to. On Clause 13 MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in section 13 (2 ) it is provided that a remaining member of the Board may deliberate on an application before the board if such an occasion arises as where the other two members cannot continue with the session of the Board . Isn't that throwing an undue load of responsibility on one member of the Board ? I do feel that this is an unwise provision and , whilst we may have confidence in the individual members of the Board, it is not right that we should place a member of the Board alone in a position where he has to decide whether or not a new licence has to be issued . Would it not be wiser to provide that where the attending members reduce their number until they fall below the quorum the Board should adjourn its sitting? It may adjourn its meeting for a week, depending onthe reasons why the other members are not able to attend or have had to leave the Board whilst it is sitting.
MR . GUZANA : I understand that. Now, may I ask in connection with this lone member, supposing the application has been an involved and a complicated one involving legal tangles and questions of law, has this member a right to say that he is adjourning the meeting on his fellow-member becoming incapacitated ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , he will have that right. You see , the provision of one of the members being a magistrate you know is because a magistrate is the only person who will be able to deal with legal intricacies . Surely if this lone member feels it is too much for him he can adjourn the meeting.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, this will scarcely ever occur. The purpose is to save the applicant time and costs , and if the applicant is not satisfied he is at liberty to apply for an adjournment .
MR. GUZANA: Let us hope he will take advantage of that at all times in these exceptional circumstances .
Clause 13 put and agreed to . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I do not think the applicant, having placed before the Board his application, has the power to say: Let this application be postponed for a later sitting of the Board. Even that will involve him in a lot of expense and, as I say, it is a big responsibility on one man to decide this issue . Supposing he arbitrarily grants the licence because he has failed to appreciate the genuineness and the justification of objections lodged by bodies which are concerned in the application , and injustice is done to those objecting bodies because on a matter of fact and evidence they have no right of appeal . Vice versa, the single member may refuse an application on a ground other than legal , which means that the applicant cannot appeal to the Supreme Court or this nebulous High Court about which you speak. If indeed it is sought to control the granting of licences relating to liquor so that it should not be , shall I say , done extravagantly, and since liquor is known to be inherently detrimental to people , is it not proper that one man should not be saddled with the responsibility of either granting or refusing a licence ? You have stated that this situation may arise exceptionally, but the point is that it will arise and that is the reason why you have provided for it.
On Clause 14 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I have been assured that this sub-section which I sought to have amended is framed in exactly the same way as it is framed in the liquor laws of the Republic, and under that clause which is similarly framed the applicant can have his attorney or legal representative with him . In view ofthe fact that the interpretation of that provision has assured the applicant that he will have a legal representative I take it that that will be the interpretation given here and therefore I shall withdraw the amendment.
Agreed to. Clause 14 put and agreed to. Clauses 15 and 16 put and agreed to. On Clause 17
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what is the Government's attitude to frivolous objections brought before the Board. Is it left to the Board not only to reject but to do something about what might be regarded as frivolous and purposeless objections to applications as the Board's work may be proliferated by such objections .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am sure the hon. members will agree that these liquor applications are always very lengthy, and more often than not they involve great expense . They usually go over months and months. Now, I am thinking of a case where just about the end of the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, all that is left to the discretion of the Board to decide which objections are frivolous
415.
would like motivation in regard to paragraph (a) (i) .
and which objections are valid and reasonable . MR. GUZANA : I am thinking of a frivolous objection which puts the applicant to a great deal of expense and the objector just gets away with it and the Board rejects the objection as being frivolous . I am thinking of someone saying So-and-so should not be given a licence because of this disqualification and that disqualification , and the applicant is put to a lot of expense to rebut these frivolous objections.
MR. GUZANA: I would be happy if you would couple your motivation with paragraph ( ix) . I would like actually to know why the wife should not be granted a licence - why she should be regarded as a disqualified person. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, with regard to (a ) ( i ) I think that is quite clear and it speaks for itself. Aperson who is not of good character cannot be granted a licence .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Ithink it is always ex facie to say which are frivolous and which are not.
CHIEF NDAMASE: How shall you prove that a person is not of a good character? MR. GUZANA: Yes , on the face of the objection, but when the Board goes into them they find that they are frivolous.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : With regard to section 32 (1) (a ) ( ix) , the wife suffers because of the character of the husband.
Clause 17 put and agreed to. MR. GUZANA : Now how does a notarial deed or a judicial order of separation make her a different person, since she is still married to the husband whose sins are being visited upon her?
Clause 18 put and agreed to. On Clause 19 MR. GUZANA: Section 19 (1) provides for a review of the proceedings of the Board. Can the review be brought on a question of law and fact , or law or fact, since appeals are merely on a question of law?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : She must live apart from the husband of bad repute . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this sub- section (ix) says that the wife who is staying with her husband of bad character and repute shall be disqualified , and also it disqualifies those wives who , though their husbands are of bad character and repute , still stay apart simply because they want to gain advantage to get a licence . That is why it says unless she is bona fide living apart from her husband under a notarial deed or judicial order of separation.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, sub- section 19 ( 2) sets out more or less what should be the guiding factors in such a petition to a court of law. For instance , where the Board exceeded its powers which, of course , can be construed to be a point of law - "failed or refused to exercise any power or discretion which, in terms of this Act, it was obliged to exercise , or exercised its powers in an arbitrary, mala fide or grossly unreasonable manner
MR. GUZANA : And your notarial deed of separation may be a smoke - screen.
MR. GUZANA: I see that, and this discretion is just the discretion of a reasonable man.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , she will be legally staying apart from her husband.
Clause 19 put and agreed to. MR. GUZANA : And illegally staying with him.
Clauses 20 to 23 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is one of the things one cannot fathom, but it merely says that those wives who are staying apart from their husbands who may be of bad character and repute can be granted these licences .
On Clause 24 MR. GUZANA : My only complaint is that here the application shall be substantially in the prescribed form and I think that will be prescribed by regulation?
MR. GUZANA : What are you going to do with a woman who is not married to the man she is living with, but that man is disqualified ? Are you going to victimize that woman?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes . MR. GUZANA : So we accept this without knowing what ramifications will be in that prescribed form . I hope you will make it as simple as possible as most of these things are very verbose and difficult.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If, for all intents and purposes , she is taken to be the wife of that man MR. GUZANA : According to Native custom ?
Clause 24 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It might be.
Clauses 25 to 31 put and agreed to .
MR. GUZANA: Now you are making things difficult.
On Clause 32
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How are you going to draw the line?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment to make here , to substitute in clause 32 (1 ) (a) (vi ) the figures " 124(2)" for " 120(2) " . This was due to a printing error. Having effected that change , I move that this clause be adopted .
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , we would like motivation in (1) (c) , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is a public servant , teachers included , and it includes the Minister.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , I
416.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, I am not aware whether the licence for the sale of beer is different from that for the sale of liquor because some ofthe teachers ' wives have trading licences and I do not know whether the wives of teachers may not be granted these licences. Why are they not permitted to hold these licences ? The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , ifthe Xhosa Development Corporation puts forward your name as a nominee the licence will be in your name . It is a nominee representing the association. MR. ZIBI : So that in effect it only means that the Xhosa Development Corporation as well as the BIC can sell liquor in my name? If I have no money and they have a thosand rand and they forward my name , what am I? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You must
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
belong to the group, of course . The debate on the Liquor Law Bill was resumed.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before we adjourned for lunch I was asking if there is any difference in a general dealer's licence and liquor licence ; and my other question was whether there is no difference between the civil servants and the teachers. In sub- section (c) it is stated that anyone who is a civil servant should not be given a licence, nor should his wife be granted one. I want to know why , and I want to know the position in regard to the chiefs as well .
MR. K.G. NOTA: How can you be a member of the Xhosa Development Corporation? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: How can you not be ? MR. NOTA: To be a member you must have shares in the corporation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It can be a director of the corporation . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Or if you form an association you can be a nominee .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the position from time immemorial has been the same as what is contained in this Bill , and the Department has seen no reason why it should deviate from what the position has been. The hon. member from Gcalekaland wishes to know whether there is any difference between a general dealer's licence and a liquor licence . The reply is - yes. In a general dealer's licence you sell what are known as necessities mostly , while liquor is a luxury .
MR . BUSAKWE : I take it , Mr. Chairman, that the XDC can nominate a European to be their representative , or an Indian ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You should know that Indians are not allowed in the Transkei . The amendment put and agreed to .
Clause 32 as amended put and agreed to . On Clause 33
MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, why is it that teachers and civil servants and their wives are not allowed to have licences ?
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, we would like the hon. Minister to explain what he means by a club?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Policy. MR. BUSAKWE : Please reply to us , hon. Minister . I take it that the hon . Minister cannot reply.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A club is a group of people joined together by certain interests , like a football club, a liquor club and so on.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is one thing for me to reply and it is another for you to be satisfied . He has replied to you, but you may not be satisfied . Mr. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , will paragraph (e ) preclude the Xhosa Development Corporation or the organisation known as Sons of the Transkei ? Please motivate this. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is a definition on page 1 of " association of persons " . It means a company , society, partnership or other association of persons; and the development corporation is given on page 4 . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This subsection (e) merely means that no association or Xhosa Development Corporation can be granted a licence as such, but only their nominees . That means that the Sons of the Transkei cannot , as such, be granted a liquor licence , but somebody must be named as a nominee of that association in order to get a licence , and the Xhosa Development Corporation as such cannot be granted a licence , but somebody who is a nominee of that corporation . MR.
BUSAKWE :
Irrespective
of colour ?
MR. MAZWI : Do you mean to tell me that a football club, subject to these conditions, would be allowed to apply for a licence ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , of course , or a tennis club. MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, in (b) ( i) , a bona fide club consisting of not less than 35 members , is the composition irrespective of race ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not interested in the composition .
MR. ZIBI : The position is there may be 33 of us and we get two storekeepers who are prepared to give us the necessary cash. Can they become members of the club? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You know there can be no mixture of races. The country does not allow that. The Transkei Constitution is not We cannot reply to that, Mr. multi- racial . Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This law makes provision for a particular race · Transkeian citizens and if there be a mixture of races
417.
MR. LUFEFENI: You are aware that in the Reserves the chiefs ask for permission to be allowed to brew and sell beer to enable them to pay their annual taxes. (Interjections ) Others educate their children on the profits from the sale of beer. In some areas there is a concoction called "babazela " which is used very much by the people, and if we permit anybody to have a licence to sell beer that individual will cause all the others to be put into difficulty and perhaps arrested for selling beer without a licence . I think that what I am saying should come from the chiefs , because it is the chiefs who sleep when people make and sell beer. (Laughter) What I am saying is what takes place in practically all these beer sales.
they must apply for separate amenities.
Clause 33 put and agreed to . Clauses 34 to 37 put and agreed to. On Clause 38 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, clause 38 lays down certain requirements in regard to premises which are to be taken into account by the licensing authority. Applications are considered and, inter alia require separate accommodation and amenities for different races, if a licence is desired in respect of premises from which liquor is supplied and accommodation will be supplied to persons of different races .
MR. V. GWEBINDLALA: Mr. Chairman , I stand in support of the hon. the Chief Minister. It is true that the drink "babazela" was stopped and what you brew today is what you call a concoction. You drink it without permission . All I want to say is that you must obey the law. Don't take it yourselves . Even the chiefs , young and All I can say is old, no longer participate. that you don't want to be ruled . (Laughter) You always argue with what is said . I can only say that you hate the chiefs . There is no better place than Bomvanaland , and there is no "babazela" there. All I can say is that you are lowering your own homes. Give Bomvana its rightful place . Don't throw away the law. Listen to the law when it is given to you. Try and follow the chiefs. You are only subjects .
MR. ZIBI : Does this mean that the applicant should put up a structure which is going to be used for the sale of liquor or just present the plan of such structure ? THE
MINISTER
OF JUSTICE : The plan.
Clause 38 put and agreed to .
On Clause 39 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, owing to a printing error I want to move that after the word " is " we insert " in " in (b ) (ii " , so that the paragraph will read : " that the main entrance to such public bar is in or will be towards a public street or thoroughfare" .
MR. A. G. SASA: Mr. Chairman, I want to refer to the sale of beer ..
Amendment put and agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, what are we discussing now?
MR. K.G. NOTA: Will the hon. Minister please motivate (a) (vi) .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Section 39. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this merely means that the bar must be separate from the bottle- store .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is nothing in this section · • •
MR . SASA: Since we were ...
MR. MAJIJA : In regard to (d) , Mr. Chairman, does this include people brewing beer at home?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What section are we
on?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , provided they conform to the requirements of this Bill and get the permission of the chief or headman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Sub- section (d) .
MR. MAJIJA : I am thinking of the brewing of beer when the people want to raise funds to buy school furniture and so on. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is illegal . has never been allowed.
It
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It merely talks about premises. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please sit down, hon. Chief Minister , and let us give him a chance . MR. SASA: The chiefs and the predecessors of our present chiefs . .
MR. ZIBI : Take the case of a widow who wants to have a beer party for the erection of her hut, or the hoeing of her land. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I want to make it clear to the members that at no time has the sale of Kaffir beer been allowed in South Africa. That must be clear , but the chiefs and headmen have always connived at that illegal sale of Kaffir beer. But with regard to all other forms of brewing Xhosa beer, apart from sale , there is enough provision in this Bill. MR. W.Z. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman, I am appealing to the chiefs to listen.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order .(Interjections ) I am entitled to a point of order. Whatever we are discussing in the House it must be relevant to the section we are discussing . We are not discussing the principles of the Bill now, in which case an hon. member could just stand up and say anything. This section deals with the premises , that is all, and not whether beer can be brewed or not. We are coming to that section and they will I am have ample opportunity to deal with it. appealing to you to bring the members to order, Mr. Chairman. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Chief Minister has mentioned that there is a clause where you can still put your question.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Why the chiefs and not the members ?
418.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Which clause is that?
the Ministers are reasonable people and it is highly improbable that a Minister can act against the recommendation of the Board . I want to make it clear to you that ministers of a cabinet always consider objectively the recommendations submitted to them by the department and should they feel that there is something with whichthey disagree then they write back to the department and put the question in connection with that matter until the matter is finalized . Fortunately , on this side of the House you have got reasonable people. (Interjections ) We have no people like you who drove out the officials of the Government one day here for no reason . That was a very good example of the arbitrary Government that would be formed by you . (Interjections ) You know what you did when we started. You drove out the officials and the Commissioner-General from this House . (Interjections ) .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is coming. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Chapter 15. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . I think you have said enough about this clause and I shall put the question . Clause 39 as amended put and agreed to. On Clause 40 MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , what has happened to the Board in this section? We formerly spoke about the Board and now we are referring to the Minister. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the position is that the Board recommends to the Minister.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , what clause here deals with the officials that have been kicked out of the Assembly?
MR. ZIBI : Suppose the Board turns down your application, can you by- pass the Board and go direct to the Minister ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That was an example. MR . RAJUILI : The hon. the Chief Minister is out of order. He is still bemoaning that he almost did not become the Chief Minister. It is only one more year and we shall kick him out. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , there is no provision for that here . MR. ZIBI : Or if the Board decides to recom mend and the Minister turns down the recommendation, what happens ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I was still replying to my hon. friend. He must rest assured that the Ministers will never act against the recommendations of the Board because the Board consists of more than one It is only when they find that the properson. visions of the Act have been overlooked that the Minister will draw the attention of the Board to those provisions . He cannot just say: No, I don't want Mr. Mpondo, therefore no licence can be issued to him. Whether he likes him or not he has got to consider objectively the recommendations of the Board . The Ministers are in charge of the whole country and they have to treat individuals equally irresDon't be afraid pective of party affiliations. that because you are in the Opposition party you will not get licences . You will get licences .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are finished. You see, the Board recommends to the Minister; the Minister agrees. MR. ZIBI : Well, if the Board turns it down you can write direct to the Minister.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , you have been shown here in the section previously dealt with that where you see there has been some injustice you may appeal to a law court. MR . O.O. MPONDO: In the event of the Board having recommended favourably to the Minister and the Minister turns down the application on what grounds can the Minister do so in the face of the recommendation of the Board?
MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Chief Minister says that the Minister will have respect for the recommendations of the Board. There are instances where the Public Service Commission has made recommendations which have been turned down.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The minister will use his discretion or he may be guided by the provisions of section 32.
MR. MPONDO: Say for argument ' sake , the Board recommends , after the applicant has satisfied all the requirements in section 32 , and the Minister turns down the application, what happens then? I take it that before the Board recommends to the Minister they will have satisfied themselves thoroughly that all the requirements under section 32 have been properly complied with. What happens if the Minister turns it down?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There were reasons , and we are not dealing with the Public Service Commission.
Clause 40 put and agreed to. Clauses 41 and 42 put and agreed to. On Clause 43
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Before an application is granted certain requirements have gotto be fulfilled by the applicant. There has also got to be a recommendation from the police that the applicant is a suitable person.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , this section provides that the licensing authority (that is, the Minister, the Board or magistrate , as the case may be) may impose on a licenceholder any restrictions , directions or conditions .
MR. MPONDO: Suppose the police do recommend in favour of the applicant?
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, under 43 (2) (a) I am not quite clear about the point referring to profits. I would like the hon. Minister to explain this.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not in a position to give hypothetical replies but in every State 419.
kei where it would be in the interests of the population could be introduced .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : This provision seeks to have certain directions or conditions on such bodies as the Xhosa Development Corporation which will have huge profits . For example , the Board can direct that so much of those profits must be directed towards a certain cause , or it must be paid to the Government of the Transkei . That is the case in the Republic today where you have the municipalities brewing a lot of beer. That section applies to the municipalities in the Republic and that is why you find certain municipalities giving so much money towards regional and tribal authorities. It also applies to the bottle stores run by such bodies as municipalities.
MR. GUZANA : In the Republic where the State President imposes restrictions or lays down conditions , but I want to know whether the Cabinet will consider imposing restrictions in respect of the liquor trade as a whole and will not be considering restrictions relating to a specific application . In 46 (c) it says " in the interests of the population of such area or any section thereof" and in that area there may be only one licensee . That is the point I would like clarified . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The imposition of restrictions will not be general .
MR . NOTA: Not to individuals ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not to individuals , but also to the Xhosa Development Corporation. For instance , when I visited Potchefstroom a grant of R1,000 was given to the Transkei Government by the Municipality, and now and again over the radio you hear of these grants towards the territorial authorities . Those are grants under this section that certain percentage of the profits must go to certain causes . It applies to the Xhosa Development Corporation which will open up a brewery somewhere between Umtata and Butterworth.
MR. GUZANA : I take it they will deal with matters of principle . Now, in an area where you have one licensee he is going to suffer , and that is why I say it is dangerous to give this power to the Cabinet since it is a political body, as distinct from the State President who is nonpolitical . In view of the fact that the Board will be regarded as non-political in its affiliation it should review all the decisions of the Cabinet in this connection. It has all the reports from the various departments , has all the relevant documents relating to licences and it is really more knowledgeable about the matter than the Cabinet.
Clause 43 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is very difficult to remove this question of suspicion of politics as far as persons or groups of persons are concerned . You see, the State President for instance is a non-political person , but invariably these people are elected from definite political parties so that if anybody wants to impute political inclinations , that person can still do so even in the case of a State President. Here is Dr. Donges who has been Minister of Finance , belonging to a definite party , and a Minister of the Republican Parliament.
Clauses 44 and 45 put and agreed to.
On Clause 46. MR. GUZANA : Now why does the Cabinet have that authority? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is feared that the Board might perhaps issue more licences than the Cabinet thinks fit. MR. GUZANA: But it goes beyond that. It can restrict licences and impose restrictions , directions or conditions in respect of licences. Why isn't that left to the Board ? You see , a Cabinet is the Government which is formed by a political party which is in power , and we take it that the liquor licensing board is not aligned politically. Now, why should the Cabinet have the right to impose restrictions , instead of allowing that to be in the hands of the Board? After all, the Minister already has the power to grant new licences recommended by the Board. I think the hon. Minister indicated that the Minister will be bound by a recommendation from the Board in such matters. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Board only deals with the licences , whereas the Government is responsible for the administration of the country, so where the Cabinet feels that the licences are abused or are not operated as they should be , the Cabinet steps in. MR. GUZANA : I want to ask if the restrictions will be of a general nature applicable to all or will it be a restriction in respect of a particular application? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In the Republic the State President is authorized under the liquor law to impose restrictions or conditions in respect of liquor licences if such restrictions or conditions are necessary in the interests of the population. This provision is now being adapted in the Transkei. Under this section a permit system of dealing in liquor in the Trans-
MR . GUZANA: Belonging to a political party, but the position to which he has been elevated is non-political , but the Cabinet sits in a political chair. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No, that is not the position . The Cabinet is an executive body • MR. GUZANA: It is the Government. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ... and the Cabinet in the discharge of its duties towards the populace as a whole is not supposed to be a political body. MR . GUZANA : Now, you want me to believe that ! THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is a fact, believe it or not. (Interjections ) Even the Commissioner-General belonged to a political party before he became Commissioner- General so that the position is that you cannot remove this element of suspicion as far as the people are concerned , especially those belonging to other political parties .
MR. GUZANA : But we must agree that a Government , since it will always be suspected of a political bias , must do those things that will reduce that suspicion .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Like what? 420 .
MR. GUZANA: Disabusing itself of powers to impose restrictions in connection with licences by persons who may belong to one party or the other.
roll
call
if this state of affairs continues.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I say this power is vested in the present State President in the Republic. The Cabinet is the Government of the country •
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should resolve itself into committee .
TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAW BILL :. COMMITTEE STAGE
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: The Cabinet does not appear to be non- political .
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It does not only govern the party to which it belongs . It governs the Opposition too , and it can't be helped that step- children will always say: We are treated like this because we are step- children. (Laughter)
House in Committee
The debate
on clause
46 was resumed.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Last Friday we stopped at clause 46 and the hon. Mr. Guzana was making certain observations in connection with this clause . Has anyone else anything to say?
MR. GUZANA : But the applicant for a licence must know that the Cabinet may restrict his licence, and it may impose restrictions and if there should be a harsh restriction imposed on him ..
MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , I wish to announce that the hon. Mr. Guzana will not be coming in today until later this afternoon , perhaps .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Those restrictions will be imposed on all the people . MR, GUZANA: In a given area.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, just a point of correction in case we have forgotten what took place last Friday. When we adjourned we had commented enough and it was just for the hon. Minister to move the adoption.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , irrespective of whether they be Democratic Party or Transkei People's Freedom Party or TNIP. MR. GUZANA: You say " such area" . What is your connotation of that area? An area may be small or big; it may be small enough to have only one licence and if there is a restriction imposed by the Government and the licensee happens to belong to a political party other than that of the Government, he is going to suspect the Government
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, what is actually the aim of sub- section ( 2) (a ) (vii) ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, this sub-section is inserted here to assist the licence- holder . It may be found that some other person may have permission to introduce liquor and this is to control those persons in cases of abuse.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Supposing it is imposed on a TNIP member?
MR. BUSAKWE : Take the case of an individual who is licenced to purchase liquor and there may be yet another person in the same area who has a permit to purchase liquor. Doesn't that put a difficulty in the way of a licensee ?
MR. GUZANA: That is the crux ofthe thing whether the Government will see its way to doing that, seeing it is a Cabinet of political persons . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House adjourn until Monday.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , he won't get a licence , he will just get a permit for a special occasion - for instance , when you have the wedding of your daughter you might apply to have a permit to introduce liquor for the purposes of your daughter's wedding ceremony.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
Agreed to. House Resumed
MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman , may I ask if it is now being made permissible to purchase liquor only under a permit now?
The Deputy Chairman reported progress .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 19th June , 1967.
MR. MADIKIZELA: I thought you mentioned that an individual may purchase liquor for a marriage feast.
MONDAY, 19TH JUNE , 1967 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is for importing it, not buying it locally.
Prayers were read. The minutes of Friday, 16th June , were taken as read and confirmed.
MR. A.G. SASA: Mr. Chairman , suppose I buy three cases of liquor here in Umtata. Is a permit required for that ?
ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I once more appeal to the Chief Whips of the parties in connection with the late arrival of the members of this Assembly. I will be constrained to order a
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not under this Bill. MR. MADIKIZELA: Suppose I am in Cape Town and I find that beer can be purchased 421 .
easily and at a low cost. I buy two cases - must I have a permit to bring them home?
the licensed premises .
It is to deal with the situation where the trouble is on the premises.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes. MR . W. MADIKIZELA : Would the hon. Minister please explain a small point ? What kind of tumult would it be which would lead tothe closing of the premises ? Suppose two men were quarrelling ? ...
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, I am just worried about the word "kind" in the same subCould the hon. Minister of Liquor section. please explain? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Certainly, hon. members , you will agree that there should be control in case some people should introduce some of these concoctions. The quality has to be controlled .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , that might be the start of a tumult, but you people have a way of reducing things to absurdity. The people will only go to the police or the magistrate or the chief when the tumult cannot be controlled . It does not mean that the moment there is a quarrel , even if it can be controlled , the people must run to the police or the headman. It is absurd and a perverted sort of thinking. (Laughter )
Clause 46 put and agreed to.
On Clause 47 MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman , in the various sections of this clause it is provided that a magistrate or a chief or headman may put restrictions , but I am wondering about this chief or headman, because those are not given the power to take away the licence . I think it is only the magistrate who should have that right. Why should you now bring in the chief and the headman? Could the hon. Minister please motivate.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, there is this technical phrase " or is expected to occur" . How do you establish the expectation of occurrence ? There is also the word "disturbance " there where strictures of this nature are applied . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am glad the hon. member has experience of such disturbances in the hotels where the White people consume liquor. This explains exactly what I said, that the mere fact that two people may be involved in fisticuffs cannot necessarily lead people to go and report to the magistrate . As I have said, it is when the tumult or the disturbance is of such proportions that it cannot be controlled . Now, the expectation - you can see that there is likely to be a disturbance which may assume great proportions - for instance , when you see a group of "tsotsis " or ducktails entering a pub and trying to cause trouble . Most people know what happens once " tsotsis " or ducktails happen to join in a free-for-all , so the licensed owner may feel that he will not be able to deal with such a situation even before it has occurred.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members · ... OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Where is the Minister of Liquor ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is a well known fact that in places where liquor is or has been consumed , there is always a likelihood of a tumult or trouble arising because the first signs of having consumed liquor are to make the one who has consumed it feel as strong as a lion. Now, this sub- section is directed at quelling a tumult or any trouble which may be about to take place. It does not refer to the withdrawal of licences . It is to give authority to the magistrate or the police or the chief or headman to close such premises once there is a tumult or a likelihood of trouble. Now, the hon. member from the station at Ndabakazi wants to know where those people will be. You will notice that there is the magistrate , the police , the chief or headman mentioned. It is to give a right to any person to go and report to any of those people who may be near at hand, and this sub- section gives them power now to act immediately. He refers to the licensing officer . You know, for
MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, would you indulge me for a few moments . May I just say that this may also refer to Bantu beer. What normally takes place is that the people are usually permitted to continue their drinking until 11 o'clock at night, and seeing that the chief is given authority also to stop or to close the premises it may happen that he himself may be the cause of the disturbance . He may be discovered by the licence owner to have overstepped the limits and the licence owner takes steps to stop him abruptly by the use of force , so as to make it possible to have evidence in case a case is It may happen that since the brought about. trouble started with the chief himself and the licensee the chief takes steps to stop the sale of beer for the time specified .
instance , that on Saturdays and Sundays the offices are closed . Supposing this trouble takes place on a Saturday when the office is closed, how can these eventualities be dealt with? MR. MAZWI : Arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, I am thinking of a situation where , say, in a rural area a man runs an off-sales business and , not as a result of drunkenness , but from some other cause there is a tumult or a riot in the same locality where the business is . What has that now to do with the business ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member from Gcalekaland is not very serious on this question. When we legislate we don't legislate for exceptional and isolated cases. I am sure such cases will be of rare occurrence and we need not concern ourselves very much about them . If such a chief or headman happens to close the premisesunjustifiably and biassedly , as I have said it will only be in isolated cases and it will be very unfortunate.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Ithink the precis of this sub- section refers to closing of licensed premises. Surely if boys are at an "mtshotsho" dance and there is trouble there , that cannot be tied up with licensed premises ; or if youths are at an "mboloro" where the place is far away from the licensed premises the police or magistrate cannot go and close down
Clause 47 put and agreed to. Clause 48 put and agreed to. 422 .
when you sell by public auction you want whatever stuff you have to go quickly. In any event, when we sell by public auction we do not want to open a bar there , when people will buy by the tot and drink there.
On Clause 49 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, clause 49 makes provision for the temporary continuation for three months of a licence in the event of the Board's refusal for any application in the renewal thereof.
MR . NOTA: One bottle is one - sixth of a gallon.
MR. O.O. MPONDO : Would the hon. Minister please explain further what circumstances may make it impossible for the Board to renew the licence immediately .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We want to facilitate the method of selling. It is a public auction and it is a big thing, not like a bar where you sell by the bottle. In any event, you will admit that this is a provision which is meant for the benefit of a person who has had his licence forfeited, otherwise such person would not have a way of disposing of the liquor he had on the premises. Sub- section (2) just says that where a competent court of law reverses the decision of the original court to forfeit the licence that licence will continue as if it had never been forfeited. Sub- section (3) protects , of course , the Receiver of Revenue or the Government from claims where such licences are forfeited or cancelled from those people who will claim the licence fees they paid , or portion thereof.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The licence holder may be disqualified and to enable him to get rid of his stock this provision has been made. MR . MPONDO: The hon. the Minister of Justice has not quite grasped my question. We want to understand what circumstances may make it impossible for the licence to be renewed. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The premises may have been burned down and other premises may not be suitable for the renewal of a licence, and so the licence may be withdrawn. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There may be various reasons on which the renewal of a licence may be refused. I would like to clarify firstly what the hon. the Minister of Justice has said. When a licence is ultimately granted the premises must conform to certain standards . It frequently happens that through the year certain eventualities may happen to the premises themselves. For instance , there may be a whirlwind and it may remove some of the roofing material , or as a result of rain seeping into the building the walls may be so dirty that it may be felt that it no longer conforms to the original requirements for a building suitable for licensed premises. It must also happen, as you were told last week, that the police also enter into the picture of recommending the applicant for a licence. The police report may be changed in regard to the applicant himself. It might be that now they have given an adverse report as far as the applicant is concerned. That might be one of the grounds. These things must be faced , because they do happen.
MR . MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , the hon. Minister says when the licence has been withdrawn the money cannot be refunded. What happens when a licence holder dies? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The licence is not forfeited . It can be carried on in the name of the estate . MR. MADIKIZELA: Say a woman who is divorced from her husband has a licence and then they remarry. Does it mean that the It is woman can carry on with the licence ? stated that if the woman marries , she forfeits her licence .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , you are It is not forfeited under such circumwrong . stances. It carries on but it will not be renewed the following year because she has committed no offence. It is just a change of status . When she was granted a licence she was qualified because she was a divorcee . Now then they reunite that is no offence , but she becomes disqualified for a licence next year.
Clause 49 put and agreed to. On Clause 50
MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman, this protection for the Receiver of Revenue - I visualize a case where a licence has been granted for a period of twelve months and during the first three months of the licence period it is for some reason declared forfeited . Would it not be fair to have a portion refunded ?
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, I cannot understand sub-section (3) and I would ask the hon. Minister to motivate. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I will first of all draw the attention of members to clause 124. Now that clause (section (1) (a) ) gives the power to the court to declare forfeited any licence as a result, inter alia, of the licence holder having been convicted of a criminal offence. Section 50 (c) gives the licence holder the right to have what liquor he had on the premises sold by public auction.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it would certainly be unfair to have it returned , because the person had brought that upon himself. Why should the State sympathize with such a person? I want an instance in which the person was not to blame You have not given me a for the forfeiture . single instance .
MR. K.G. NOTA: Why do you specify not less than two gallons ?
MR.
A.G.
SASA:
Mr.
Chairman
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I hope you are going to give me an example .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Because you may find that some people might buy gallons and gallons to sell illegally.
MR . SASA: Here is an instance MR. NOTA : No , it says not less than two gallons.
• •
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , you have not caught the whole thing. You must just speak when we talk about laws and customs of
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You know
423
ted under this Act" it means there is another section under which there are provisions for this. Read section 94 of the Bill. I wish to appeal to the hon. members across the floor that we should be closing this session by tomorrow, but they are delaying by asking nonsensical questions which are very unreasonable and which not even a baby who has passed Sub A would ask. I am appealing to you hon. (Interjections) gentlemen to co -operate with the Government to get the session closed by tomorrow. (Interjections)
the Africans . I have already said that where the woman marries again the licence is not forfeited.
MR. L.A. LUWACA: Don't you see they will have to reunite unlawfully to save the licence ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I can tell you that you are wrong. How do you reconcile the reunion of divorced or separated people with getting the licence ? They don't get it when they unite . They can have it for a year but there is no man who wants it only for a year, because when they apply for a reissue of that licence it will not be reissued if they reunite.
MR. NOTA: Take the case of a person who is prohibited by the magistrate from buying liquor. Will the licence holder have a list of such prohibited individuals , and if he has not got the list, how will he discover who is a prohibited customer ?
MR. LUWACA : It will not be known that they are reunited , because they will do it illegally, but they will be staying together. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: How are you talking about reunion if they are not remarried? We are not talking about concubines here . (Laughter) We are talking about legally married The position is , if you want to get the people. advantage of a licence we are not going to stop you from illegally staying with that woman who We cannot is licensed, or any other person. , but together stay not must they say come and the law refers to legally married people .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, clause 94 (4) says that the magistrate who makes the order of prohibition shall forward a copy to the police officer in the district where the person resides and " such officer shall forthwith upon receipt thereof notify the prohibition or cause it to be notified to such person, to every licence-holder in the district • MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, in regard to (a ) , how is a licence - holder going to determine that a person is not under 18?
Clause 50 put and agreed to. On Clause 51
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : By assumption, by appearance.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This section, Mr. Chairman, makes provision for a temporary continuation of business in certain circumstances .
MR. LUWACA: But that is vague , because you may get a tall boy of 16 years . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The position is that the licence -holder will just say to a person: I am not giving you any liquor because you are under age , . and it is for that person to prove he is of age , not for the licence - holder to do so.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : May we know the circumstances ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, sub- section (1 ) is just what I referred to just now, where a person dies and the executor of the estate carries on the business in the name of the estate. That is the gist of section ( 1 ) . Now sub- section ( 2) refers to a case where the licensed premises are attached in execution. That means that the officer who attaches may appoint any person to carry on the business while the business is under attachment. Sub-section (3) is quite clear.
MR . LUWACA: Take a case where a boy who may be under age has bought liquor and has been arrested by the police in possession of that liquor, how is the licence -holder going to be affected? He was not there when the boy was born or baptized . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall put the question.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, there is this point - "the Secretary may in his discretion authorize any person to carry on the business .. " What is the explanation of "any person" ?
MR. LUWACA : Mr. been answered .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Any person whom the Secretary deems fit to carry on the business . It may be you in my business . You will not carry on that business for your own sake in any case . You will carry it on for the benefit of the licence holder and you will be paid.
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, under (c) , if a prohibited person comes from Cofimvaba to Umtata to buy liquor , how will the people in Umtata find out that he is a prohibited customer? We don't have photographs of these people in the bars.
Chairman , I have not
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Section 95 (2) , there is a proviso there : Provided that in any proceedings for a contravention of this subsection it shall be a sufficient defence if the accused satisfies the court that he had no knowledge of such prohibition.
Clause 51 put and agreed to. Clause 52 put and agreed to . On Clause 53 MR. K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to explain 53 (c) . How will the licence holder see that a certain person has been prohibited?
MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Under 53 ( a) , Mr. Chairman , the under - age prohibition, it may happen that the person is an employee and he is under age . Will he be prohibited because he is under age even if he is the son of the employer?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I would request the hon. members to read right through the Bill because when it says "prohibi-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If he is
424.
It says below the age he cannot be supplied. "Subject to the provisions of this Act no licenceholder shall sell , supply or deliver liquor • •
written in that section. At any rate we shall try and co-operate with you and we expect you to co-operate with us , too.
MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Under (d), "who is a member of a race or class of persons " , what does that mean exactly?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: what I have been doing all morning .
That is
MR. MADIKIZELA : Sub- section ( 2) says no licence -holder shall permit to remain on his licensed premises (except in the performance of his lawful functions) any member of the police during the time appointed for him to be on duty. The policeman comes and he is thirsty. Does it mean you may not sell him liquor because the policeman may come in and one may not know whether he has come to buy, or whether he is on duty?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think this question was dealt with exhaustively the first day we Idealt with this Bill. I shall now put the question. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, in regard to (b) - "who is already in a state of intoxication" . I have never been intoxicated before , but I have seen people getting intoxicated by degrees. There is no specification as to what degree of intoxiIcation is intended here .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the police can only be there if they are on duty. If a policeman should tell you he is off duty while he is on duty that will not hit against the licence-holder, but it will hit against the policeman in terms of one of the sections here which concerns anybody who gives false information and pretends he is entitled to obtain liquor when he is not.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Ifhe is in a state of intoxication that is sufficient. It does not matter which stage . MR . MADIKIZELA: Under (d) the Chairman has said that this has been referred to before. I do not think we dealt with section 53 before. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I referred to the words " race or class of persons". I am now putting the clause .
MR. MADIKIZELA: So if he is in uniform , one may not serve him ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , you may not.
Clause 53 put and agreed to. Clause 54 put and agreed to .
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : Would the hon. Minister please explain ( 1) (b)?
On Clause 55 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This section does not refer to serving a policeman with liquor. It merely means that the licence-holder must not allow a policeman to loiter in his licensed premises . I am sure many of my hon. friends who do not like policemen will be very happy over this sub- section.
MR. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman, suppose a person buys beer and he goes behind the house and gets into trouble . Who is going to be arrested the person who owns the premises or the man who causes the trouble ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How can a person be held responsible if he did not permit it?
MR. MADIKIZELA: Is it all right if he buys liquor and goes away?
MR. MAZWI : In the first paragraph of this section, suppose I purchase liquor to drink it on the premises and I find I cannot consume all I have bought, does it mean I must drink it to the finish, or may I carry it home?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Well , then It does not say in this he is not loitering . section that he may not be supplied with liquor. MR. MADIKIZELA : The hon. Minister said the policeman is not supposed to loiter in the bar. If you find a policeman loitering in the bar, are you justified in asking him to go away?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You must drink it to the finish or spill it out. Clause 55 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Ask him what he wants.
On Clause 56 MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, I asked for an explanation of (1 ) (b) and that has not been given. It says "exclusive use of members of a particular race ".
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Motivate , please. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What should I motivate ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this merely prohibits the mixing of races in bars.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: The whole section.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, this is a very long Bill. I shall ask the hon. members if they want motivation to specify the sub- section, because we might be motivating on what the hon. members are clear about and that wastes time. We are prepared to motivate , but to motivate even those sections on which you are clear is just waste of time.
MR. ZIBI : So that a European storekeeper in the Reserves cannot be served in a bar owned by a Bantu in the Reserves ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No.
Clause 56 put and agreed to .
MR. W. MADIKIZELA: I thank the hon. Minister for his remarks . In some cases the section is quite short and we don't follow what is
Clause 57 put and agreed to . On Clause 58
425 .
MR. ZIBI : Could we have motivation on (b), please ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No brewery would allow a cluster of people round the place buying small quantities of beer, so they must sell in big quantities , perhaps to the tribal authorities and those who want small quantities can get it from those tribal authorities .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am sure you have come across this state of affairs where one section is reserved for the Whites and the other for the non- Whites . We have found that the non- Whites may not be allowed in the section reserved for the Whites , and invariably you will find that when the Whites come to the side of the non-Whites they are just allowed there. Now this says that where the side is reserved for the Whites the non- Whites will not be allowed to go there , and in the side reserved for non- Whites the Whites will not be allowed to go there.
MR. NOTA: I think the hon. Minister has not quite understood my point. Suppose I have two licences - a brewery licence and a retail licence. Now, I am short of liquor in the bar and I require about 20 gallons of liquor . The law does not permit me to buy only 20 gallons . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is not the point. If you are the holder of a licence for Bantu beer you can buy any amount from the brewery, even one gallon , but this prevents a thousand people without licences actually going to the brewer to go and buy. They must buy from the person who has a licence to sell Bantu beer , but the one with the licence can buy any quantity from the brewer. If you read this , it says " no licence-holder of a wholesale liquor licence shall sell ... to any one person other than a licenceholder Bantu beer in any quantity less than forty gallons".
MR. MADIKIZELA: Now you are going tothe extent of the Republican Government where there are separate sections for Whites and for the nonWhites ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is our policy. Clause 58 put and agreed to. On Clause 59
MR. NOTA : So the licence- holder is not included in this ?
MR. O.O. MPONDO: Please motivate 59 (2) . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This deals with the hours of sale for off-consumption.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , he can buy in any quantity, but we find that invariably hosts of people will go to the brewer to buy because it is cheaper there. That is why in the wholesalers you find them not selling to individuals without traders ' licences . They usually
MR. MPONDO: Most unsatisfactory , hon. Minister. Explain the thing. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well I cannot make him satisfy you. I shall put the question .
sell to people with traders ' licences . MR. L.T. MAZWI : I can visualize a situation where the distance between the brewery and the licence-holder is , say, two or three miles and a person nearer the brewery has to travel two or three miles to get a pint of beer.
MR. MPONDO: I am not satisfied , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, a man having a general dealer's licence may also have a right to sell liquor. This merely means that he cannot exceed the hours allowed him under his general dealer's licence to sell liquor , unless under his liquor licence he is given an extension of time.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. ChairYou may be a man, that makes no difference . quarter of a mile from the factory or from the wholesaler and the shop is five miles away. You will be bound to go to the shop to buy.
MR. ZIBI : If he has a general dealer's licence, must he still apply for a liquor licence , or is it covered?
MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister , where he referred to the tribal authorities , we are already put to much inconvenience about that and the meetings are already not held in time because of drink. ( Laughter )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , he must get a licence to sell liquor.
Clause 59 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He was giving an example .
Clause 60 put and agreed to. On Clause 61
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : There is a portion here which says that no licence -holder shall sell to any person liquor of a greater quantity than may reasonably be consumed by such person. How will the seller be able to estimate the quantity of liquor the buyer can drink at a time ?
MR. K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman, I want to draw the attention of the Minister concerned to section 61 (4) where it says " No licence - holder of a Bantu beer brewer's licence shall sell , supply or deliver at any one time to any one person other than a licence-holder Bantu beer in any quantity less than forty gallons . " Mr. Chairman, I cannot quite grasp the idea of this 40 gallons for even the general dealers buy in certain quantities from the wholesaler. They are not compelled to buy a certain quantity. I think it will be in order if the licence-holder is known to the brewer and they can arrange between themselves what quantity the licence-holder can buy.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, you come back to the word " reasonable " . Surely the person who is licensed to sell liquor becomes so skilled in the business that he knows he cannot supply a person with a whole gallon . He knows what can reasonably be consumed by any person on the premises under certain circumstances.
The debate was adjourned . 426.
On Clause 66
AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. ZIBI : We want motivation , please , on (1) and (2). It is the word "reasonable".
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the Transkei Liquor Law Bill was resumed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the requirements must be reasonable . This section is intended to assist the public in that some hoteliers or licence-holders might decide to sell only one brand of liquor. If, for instance, the licence -holder is a lover of a certain brand he might decide to sell only that brand in his hotel and this is provided so that the licence- holder will provide different brands of liquor .
Clauses 61 to 63 put and agreed to.
On Clause 64 MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman, in connection with clauses 64 (2) (a) and (b) I would like the hon. Minister to explain thoroughly where it says that a person who is going to manage the business must get the written permission of the magistrate.
MR. K.G. NOTA: In the case of a Kaffir beer licence , what will be the reasonable requirements then?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is where the licence-holder wants another man to manage temporarily, not the permanent manager.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It will be standard Kaffir beer B not concoctions .
MR. K.G. NOTA: I would like the hon. Minister to explain with regard to the age. Could a person of 18 years of age not be allowed to manage the business seeing that the owner ofthe business may delegate his duties to his son who may be just 18 years of age?
Clause 66 put and agreed to.
On Clause 67 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the intention of this provision is the same, more or less , as I explained this morning where the Board grants a licence because they have been That given a particular plan of the premises . is why the plan must be submitted together with the application. Now, the licence-holder might alter his premises in such a way that would not have induced the Board to grant the licence had the structure been what he alters it to be . That is why the Board must be advised and approve of any alterations that are made or are to be made subsequently.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, when we deal with the management of the business we must draw a line between those persons who are allowed to consume liquor in the licensed premises , and those persons who are dealing with matters which may have contractual circumstances. Then a person under 21 years of age is regarded by law as being a minor. That is the reason why he is being tied down to a person over the age of 21. Hon. members may also be referred to clause 32 (1 ) ( a) ( ii ) . In the same way as a licence cannot be granted to a person less than 21 years old, a person under that age cannot be allowed to manage the business.
Clause 67 put and agreed to.
On Clause 68 MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , here is a licence-holder submitting an application and he finds it is required that he submits a plan. That plan is approved and I assume that in such plan there is provision for a storage place . What is the motive of this section in the light of that requirement?
MR. K.M. GUZANA: If the owner ofthe business dies and his son is 18 years of age , will the trustee or administrator of his estate be allowed to carry on the business until the son is of age? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , we passed that clause this morning in your absence.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When the applicant applies for a liquor licence he specifies as to where the liquor which is not to be immediately used is to be stored . This merely provides that he shall store it there in that place where he said he would store it when he applied, because he might provide for the storage place and not store it there but at some other place which he feels might be suitable .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , under (a), supposing the business belongs to me and I require my son who is over 21 to work, how does the magistrate come into this ? It just shows that I do not enjoy autonomy in the running of my business. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That refers to management during the absence of the licensed owner . You can employ him. Nobody refuses that, but the law must know who has been left there to manage .
Clause 68 put and agreed to. On Clause 69
MR. ZIBI : I could understand if I advised the magistrate , but not that I must go and seek a written permit from him.
MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , I would just like to know from the hon. the Minister of Justice if this section applice to Kaffir beer .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is because there are certain persons who are not allowed to obtain a liquor licence and while the licence-holder is away you might put the very person who is not allowed to hold a licence as manager.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If Kaffir beer falls under liquor.
Clause 64 put and agreed to.
MR. NOTA: As regards European liquor you get it sold in measured quantities , but in the case of Bantu beer how are you going to ascertain these specified quantities for the purpose of the records ?
Clause 65 put and agreed to .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chair-
427.
man, the register for keeping the records for Kaffir beer will be prescribed by regulation. MR. NOTA: So there will be a standard price for Kaffir beer?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, with all seriousness I move that we adjourn in order to give the hon. Minister time to study this thing thoroughly and we can carry on tomorrow. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are not going to adjourn. (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Certainly. Clause 69 put and agreed to.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall put the clause .
On Clause 70 OPPOSITION MEMBERS : We want a reply to our question.
MR . H.H. ZIBI : Would the hon. Minister please motivate on the word "ties".
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What question is that ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is in the definitions .
MR. GUZANA : Are you precluding a person from obtaining extended credit by undertaking to sell a certain type of liquor?
MR. L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman, we want a motivation on the whole clause , not just the definition of "tie" .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It might be an agreement to sell only one kind of brandy.
MR. GUZANA: That is what this clause says , although it does not embarrass anybody.
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : It says " other than the holder of a Bantu beer licence".
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But the tie will not be to the satisfaction of the other section which referred to reasonable requirements .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Xhosa Development Corporation may have a monopoly to sell Bantu beer and anybody who wants Bantu beer would have to get it from the XDC .
MR. GUZANA: Yes , all right, he can carry 15 per cent of one brand , 10 per cent of another , and a manufacturer says to him: Iwill give you extended credit if you stock your bottle store with 75 per cent of my brand. It will comply with section 66 and at the same time will assist the licence-holder. That is the point. Would that be regarded as a tie if an arrangement is made which transgresses section 70 in effect but satisfies the requirements of section 66 ( 1)?
MR. MAZWI: It is a pity that when we are handling a matter of this kind a Minister should be so indistinct and say things which are not clear to us. It appears as though he has not studied this bill himself. We don't know what the Minister of Justice is for if he is going to present the House with a bill he has not studied. We would like a thorough explanation under this clause so that we know exactly what the idea behind it is.
THE MINISTER OF transgresses section 70 ?
EDUCATION : Which
MR. GUZANA: Yes , you have your pub and you find that one brand is a popular brand, and the manufacturers of that brand tell you they will give you 90 days ' or 120 days ' credit if you stock your bottle store with 75 per cent of their brand.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Has the Minister of education anything to say? MR. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , under this section it is quite clear that the Xhosa Development Corporation is given the monopoly to sell beer.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: After section 66 has been satisfied ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not in this section.
MR. GUZANA: Or not even after , but to satisfy section 66 where the reasonable requirements show that the general public consumes about 75 per cent of this particular brand and the licenceholder is offered by the manufacturers of that particular brand extended credit if he will stock his bottle store with 75 per cent of that brand. In other words , although there is this tie , in effect the licence -holder does not infringe the provision of section 66 ( 1) in that what he carries in effect meets the requirements .
MR. NOTA: I am going on what the hon. the Minister of Justice said. Supposing the licenceholder has not enough capital and a certain company which brews a particular type of liquor goes to the licence -holder and says : If you stock 50 per cent of our brand of liquor we will be able to give you easy terms on which to pay. Don't you realise this clause is likely to handicap the licence-holders in certain circumstances ? The same thing happens with garages when the petrol companies subsidize them.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Ithink that will be O.K.
THE NINISTER OF EDUCATION : The licenceholder is free to choose , but he cannot undertake a tie.
MR. GUZANA: And that will not infringe the requirements ?
MR. GUZANA: Would that not be a tie if he undertakes to stock 50 per cent of a certain type of liquor ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You mean the agreement between the licence -holder and the manufacturer?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , that in itself helps the licence-holder to meet the reasonable requirements of the public where the reasonable requirements show that to a greater extent his customers prefer to drink a particular brand , and
MR. GUZANA : Which means that a man who might get extended credit on those terms is precluded by this clause. 428.
the manufacturer of that particular brand goes to the licence-holder and says : Will you carry a certain percentage of our liquor which we notice is popular in your region? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don't think it will be a tie if it satisfied section 66(1). MR. GUZANA: Now, is it contemplated that there will be a corporation which has the exclusive right to brew Kaffir beer ? THE
MINISTER
OF
EDUCATION : Yes .
MR. GUZANA: Why is that so? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We will Ideal with that when we come to that section. MR. GUZANA : Shall we hold section 70 over then, until we get to that section? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No.
MR. GUZANA: What about the rural areas? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It will not affect them . MR. GUZANA: There is no provision to that effect, because this contemplated corporation, whatever it may be, may establish its brewery in Umtata and may undertake to supply all Bantu beer licence-holders in the Transkei and will view with aversion any other person who undertakes to supply a particular licence -holder with Bantu beer. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That exclusive right is given by the Minister. MR. GUZANA: Now you give it the exclusive right and ten or twelve women in the location may supply adequately the requirements of a Bantu beer licence-holder and will not be allowed to supply because the Xhosa Development Corporation has a monopoly .
MR. GUZANA: Will you give me an explanation they of why it is "other than the holder of a Bantu beer licence" ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I have already pointed out that this exclusive right, if it is granted ..
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have answered yourself. It is because it is contemplated that there will be a corporation that will have the monopoly of brewing Kaffir beer.
MR. GUZANA : What is the condition now? Is it contemplated that it may not be granted?
MR. GUZANA: Why should it have the monopoly? Almost every married African woman is capable of making Kaffir beer.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Minister is the person who will grant it. He may or may not.
MR. GUZANA : Why contemplate a monopoBusiness is free and there listic condition? should be private enterprise in every sphere.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : She is allowed if it is not for sale . MR . GUZANA: She may undertake to supply a licence-holder with a certain amount every weekend. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It would be on a very, very small scale - in fact, infinitesimal. MR . GUZANA: No, you are thinking of the municipal location where there is a concentration of people . I am thinking of a person who holds a Bantu beer licence in a rural location and he may contract with ten women in the rural location to supply him with Kaffir beer to sell . Now it is contemplated in a later section that there will be a monopply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is not prohibited in the rural areas .
MR. GUZANA: For which area are you legislating now? Not for the rural areas? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And for the portions of the towns which may come in from time to time. MR. GUZANA: In other words , this clause will apply to those areas which may become rural , but there are places which are already rural now. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The urban areas will not become rural. MR. GUZANA: But in the meantime the section applies to the rural areas ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : To those urban areas which shall fall within the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Let me exThe position is that the Xhosa Developplain. ment Corporation is a corporation which has been intended for developing industry in the Now, whether you agree with it or Transkei. not is beside the question. That is the position. Now, it is intended that in some of the urban areas it may be necessary to brew beer on a large scale and it may be necessary for a big business concern to undertake that brewing of beer on a large scale , and if the Xhosa Development Corporation applies it may say: Well, we shall undertake that if we get the exclusive right to brew beer. And ifthe Minister decides to grant that exclusive right then it will have that exclusive right. MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether I understood correctly what the hon. Minister was saying. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He has not been given that power. He will be given it under section 118 .
MR. GUZANA: And when you get there you will say we have already agreed to that under section 70 , so let us catch you before we get to it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is a question of ties. MR. GUZANA: It is this question of a monoOnce you give a poly that is worrying us. monopoly it means that nobody else can enter that field of competition and the explanation given here seems to contemplate a particular body applying to brew beer and asking for a monopoly. So you are anticipating the requirements of this corporation by saying that you want to provide that the Minister will have the 429.
right to provide such a monopoly and so, in section 70 , before you have got to the clause which grants that body a monopoly, you say "other than the holder of a Bantu beer licence ".
unless the loss , damage or injury is proved to have been caused by the wilful act, or as a result of the default or negligence of the licence-holder or any person in his employ.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think I have explained this sufficiently. It is for the members now to say whether they want the ties or do not want them.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This section refers to the compensation of the person who suffered loss in the licensed premises. It says that in order to go beyond R40 he would have to prove under (b) that the loss , damage or injury was caused by wilful act or as a result of the default, etc. of the licence-holder , so that ifyou get to a licensed premise and you suffer loss to your property above the compensation of R40 , if you want compensation of more than that you would have to show that this loss was as a result of the wilful act of the licence-holder or the person in his employ, or default or negligence of those persons .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : them .
We
don't want
MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, do I understand from the hon. Minister that this matter is still going to be discussed later ? He spoke He said the Minister about it in section 70. will be given powers to allow that Bantu beer should be brewed by a European? Is that so ? If so, how does that come about?
MR. GUZANA : In other words , having not complied with these conditions , and the loss is under R40 you can go along to the licence -holder and tell him you have lost property to the value of R38 and he must pay up? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have finished . MR. ZIBI: In the light of the explanation by the hon. Minister , would he concede that the activities of the BIC or the XDC are precisely identical to the activities of Communism ? (Laughter)
Clause 72 put and agreed to. Clauses 73 to 81 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is not section 70.
On Clause 82
MR. ZIBI : You are seeking to nationalize trade in this country.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to motivate (a).
Clause 70 put and agreed to , by 44 votes to 30.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is to keep order .
Clause 71 put and agreed to . MR. BUSAKWE : Now, suppose I drink within the licensed premises and as Igo out staggering I am arrested in the street on my way home. How are the hotel and the street now regarded as one place? If I am drunk within the premises , you are entitled to take me out.
On Clause 72 MR. GUZANA: Please motivate the liability of the licence - holder . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, clause 72 protects and limits the licenceholder's liability and requires the provisions of sub- sections (1) and (2 ) to be exposed on the licensed premises .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, this section has nothing to do with the licence -holder. It has something to do with the individual who has consumed liquor in the licensed premises . It is to make sure that he makes sure that when consuming liquor he is not going to be a public nuisance in the street. In other words, the principle is - drink , but don't get drunk .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, a lodger may have property exceeding the value of R40 and this property may well become damaged or may be lost or injured , and the licence-holder's liability in terms of this provision is limited to R40. I take it that the licence-holder can still be sues dor the amount in excess of R40? Do I understand that to be the correct position?
Clause 82 put and agreed to. Clause 83 put and agreed to .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Look at subsection (4).
On Clause 84 MR. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, may I refer to the hon. the Minister of Education . A farewell or entertainment is held in honour of a certain European and then we purchase liquor to make ourselves happy and also to make him happy. How will this be managed?
MR. GUZANA: No , that is only up to R40. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Sub- section 72 (1 ) limits the liability of a licence-holder to R40, and further lists circumstances which would entitle the lodger , or whoever it might be , to claim more than R40 . It says "unless " , and then gives the circumstances . It lists them there so that the person who suffers loss will have to prove these before the licence -holder can be held liable.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The stress here is on obtaining the permission of the owner or occupier of the premises. MR . BUSAKWE : In your case who will be the owner? In the case of the Minister of Education?
MR. GUZANA: Even up to and beyond R40 ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Ifyou want to have it in the school?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes . MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Under 72 (1) (b) it states
MR. BUSAKWE : No , here .
430.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Government.
MR. GUZANA : In making such regulations is it contemplated that he may allow general dealers to handle patent or Dutch medicines which have been said to be intoxicating medicines ? Is that
Clause 84 put and agreed to.
contemplated?
On Clause 85 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I could not answer to that.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , this merely provides for the exigencies of some men who will order liquor for consumption and, after draining it down their throats , will refuse to pay. That is all it means .
MR. GUZANA: You should , because you say that these things will be subject to regulations . Does the hon. Minister have any mind that the general dealer has these medicines in stock, or has placed an order for them?
Clause 85 put and agreed to . Clauses 86 to 90 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think you will appreciate why I say I cannot answer that. You say the Minister "in his mind" . I am only assisting the Minister of Justice .
On Clause 91 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, before this one could only obtain methylated spirits in the hotel and this now enables that it can be sold even in the general dealer's premises .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Minister will make provision in the regulations. MR. GUZANA: Yes, and will you allow the general dealer to go on carrying that stock or displaying it for sale when he has already declared it intoxicating medicine , though it is indeed a medicine or a Dutch remedy ? Are you contemplating a regulation in that direction? That is what I want to know. You see,
MR. H.H. ZIBI : It may happen that a person buys methylated spirits in order to make a certain kind of intoxicant. There are such intoxicants made out of methylated spirits. If the man who buys it has that intention what happens ?
Mr. Chairman, matters may well have to be dealt with by regulation , and we do not quarrel with that, but when the hon. Minister brings a Bill to this House and says he will deal with a certain matter by regulation he knows how he will deal with it. Now, we don't want to know how the regulation is going to be framed , but we want to be assured that if shop A supplied certain medicines , that shop will continue to supply these , even though they have been declared intoxicating medicines , because I suppose an intoxicating medicine can be no worse than methylated spirits which can be sold at a general dealer's shop.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think you will agree with me that the question of methylated spirits being bought only from hotels has caused a lot of hardship before . Now the fact that one person buys something and uses it wrongly does not enter the picture. When Tsafendas bought the knives it was thought he would use them in the ordinary way in which knives are used.
Clause 91 put and agreed to. Clause 92 put and agreed to. On Clause 93
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think the hon. Minister will make reasonable provision as far as that is concerned. It is difficult to say at this stage .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Section 93 provides that any patent , proprietary or Dutch medicines may be declared to be intoxicating medicines. This may be declared in the Official Gazette .
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, it was stated that the Minister would make regulations at a later stage , and then again he said the matter would be gazetted. All I want to know is if those regulations which are to be published later will allow the people to go on selling these medicines.
MR. K.G. NOTA: What happens to the ordinary traders when they stock these medicines after they have been declared intoxicating? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They will be committing an offence .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I said that the hon. Minister will make reasonable regulations with regard to that. Now, I am thinking of the fact that those intoxicating medicines might differ in the degree of intoxication. It might be found that some of them actuallypossess some habit-forming substance , in which case the Minister might even decide to ban such medicines , while others might be mild in their intoxicating effect. Therefore , in being reasonable the hon. Minister will treat each case on its merits.
MR. NOTA: Say the Gazette is issued at a time when the stock of these medicines is already displayed on the shelves of the shop. What will happen? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is the same You must get rid of them . as a banned book. MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Under this section it does not say whether these medicines are not permitted or are allowed to be sold. I cannot quite understand. It will be noted in the Gazette that such-and- such a medicine is an intoxicant and after that what happens ?
MR. L.T. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman, it looks as if we are contradicting ourselves. We talk of medicine and we are aware that medicine is made specifically to cure disease. Then we talk of intoxicants , and the manufacturer must have been aware that the medicine would intoxicate the patient in the process of curing him. How can we stop such things , because we know that medicines are to cure? There are also injections which make the patient drunk and then
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, this section 93 is tied up with section 126 (1 ) (1), (m) and (n) , where the Minister may make regulations relative to such things as intoxicating medicines.
431 .
send him to sleep, but the doctor is not found liable because it was known that such an injection would cure the disease . If these things are medicines , I don't see any reason why they should be stopped from being sold because they intoxicate. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think we shall agree that patent medicines are usually sold by people who have no knowledge of medicine . Now, this section says the Minister may from time to time , after consultation with any competent authority .... He will not just do what he intends doing single -handed. He will for instance consult experts in medicine , such as medical practitioners . Now, the position is that even in medicine itself there are some medicines which you cannot obtain from the chemist without the prescription of a doctor, although they are medicines and they remain medicines , but the fact remains that the Government which has the interests of the people at heart cannot just allow the sale of such things as medicines at random. Aperson, for instance, might have bought one of the intoxicating medicines from a shop and it just gives him adverse results, and they may continue and the medical practitioners who have been examining this person may refer the fact to the Minister that there is a medicine which they suspect to have ill effects . The minister may thereupon , after consultation with the competent authority, declare that to be intoxicating medicine , and by regulation regulate how it has to be sold. MR. L.Z. MAJIZA : Mr. Chairman, there are medicines which the hon. Minister says may be banned because they are not quite suitable . We would like to know what provision has been made for those people who may purchase those drugs in the Republic or here in Umtata.
different. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He was explaining (1) (c). MR. MADIKIZELA : My question is based on sub-section ( 2 ) and I want the hon. Minister to motivate that sub- section. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Sub- section (2) merely says that the magistrate cannot give an order such as is contemplated in this section unless that person of whom the order is to be made has applied for that himself, or he has consented thereto , or he has been given an opportunity to appear at the inquiry before the magistrate. MR. BUSAKWE : Suppose I had a bottle of liquor , how will it be known that I have purchased this bottle of liquor?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In respect of what? MR . BUSAKWE : I am referring to the point where it is stated that such person will not be permitted to buy liquor, because surely any person can go into the bottle store , buy liquor and walk out, unless he buys such quantities that special permission is required. How does the seller know he is a prohibited person? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This refers to the licence - holder . It prohibits him selling to a prohibited person. His question is - how will the licence -holder know that man? The position is, if he knows you he has got your name blacklisted there. MR. BUSAKWE : And if he doesn't?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In the rest of the Republic those regulations referred to are already in force.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You get away with it. Now, if you are found you will be in for it for disobeying an order.
MR. GUZANA : And what is the position in relation to these medicines which have been declared intoxicating medicines in these regulations ? Can they be handled by general dealers?
MR. MADIKIZELA : That means there is a loophole in this law.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , subject to control , for instance such as that the general dealer cannot sell more than a certain amount to a person at a time .
MR. MADIKIZELA: It is stated that the person who sells liquor will be liable if he does_so. knowing it. If I am discovered to possess this liquor, there is nothing in the Bill to say that the person who has bought the liquor will be punished . It is the seller who will be liable .
Clause 93 put and agreed to . On Clause 94 MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, in 94 (1) (c) you refer to a person who spends all his money and will be found guilty under that section. I would like to find out how the question of the man spending his money will be investigated. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, a report may be made to a magistrate by a certain person to the effect that So-and- so is an addict or that his family is in rags while he spends all his money on liquor . The magistrate then investigates the report . Actually , this is to meet the wishes of the social welfare officers . MR. W. MADIKIZELA: I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his explanation, but I cannot understand how it ties in with ( 1 ) and (2 ) . It appears as if the hon. Minister has explained something
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is no law that has no loophole.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Look at section 95 .
Clause 94 put and agreed to . Clauses 95 to 97 put and agreed to. On Clause 98 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I just want to know if there will be an obligation on the part of the police administration to serve notice on such licence-holder before a report is made to I am thinking of a direction having the Board . been given, or a condition imposed , and in order to comply with such a direction or fulfil a condition it may take the licence-holder some time to do so. In the meantime , the police administration reports his failure to the Board . Iwonder if the police administration will not first serve notice on the licence- holder that it is going to report to 432 ..
of order, Mr. Chairman, I earlier appealed to the hon. members that this is a very long Bill and it will assist this House a lot if the hon. members will just stand up and put their questions rather than tell long stories .
the Board so as to give him an opportunity to explain the delay in complying with the condition before the matter is reported to the Board. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The attention of the hon. member is drawn to section 10 (4) (a).
MR. MAZWI: Thank you, hon. Minister, but please note that you are not the Chairman. These laws pertaining to people having their drinks with the object of buying liquor, it is easy for a policeman to accuse me of being with those people, particularly in respect of that notorious Proclamation R.400.
MR. GUZANA: Yes, that is where I think a party is applying for a licence - section 10 (1) (b) (iii). We are dealing with section 98. Now it is that report I am speaking to that the report should not be made before the licence-holder is aware that such a report will be made . You see , the report is in respect of complying with a direction of the Board .
Clause 99 put and agreed to.
On Clause 100 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But in directions , as you know, there is always a time put that it must be done within such-and- such a period, and if the licence -holder does not comply in that period he knows what the consequence is.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : This rank to be designated by Government Notice in regard to the police, which is the minimum rank that will be designated? I take it that the intention is to appoint a responsible member of the police force and that is why I ask above what rank it is intended that a policeman be designated .
MR. GUZANA: And he will be allowed to make representations in the time allowed to him if he cannot comply, otherwise a report will be made?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Not below the rank of sergeant .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes.
Clause 98 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA: I suppose the Minister would intervene if anybody below the rank of sergeant were appointed?
On Clause 99 MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, here is a licensee reporting to the police and they in turn report to the magistrate , and further ask the Secretary for an interim meeting. Is the holder accorded an opportunity of defence ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes . MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, in connection with the section which gives the police the right to enter and search premises . I fail to understand the idea of the police taking stock.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is only by taking stock that the police can ascertain whether or not the licence -holder has been keeping proper records.
MR. ZIBI : Idon't see the provision in the Bill. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: An interim meeting of the Board is no different from other meetings where he is allowed to be represented .
MR. GUZANA: I take it his power under this section is also to determine his source of supply to his reserve stock? (Laughter )
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, "when any licence-holder has been convicted of an offence, whether under this Act or any other law, including the common law ..." This is a point which worries me. There are very many laws under which one can be convicted, including traffic laws , and that may affect his liquor business . I I am just would like this to be made clear. mentioning traffic regulations as an example .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes . Clause 100 put and agreed to.
On Clause 101 MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what this "other thing" is.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, especially where the licence-holder is represented you can be sure that no trifling crimes will ever lead the Board to cancel the licence . The section says "... and the Police Administration is of the opinion that it is in the public interest that the Board should , without delay, consider the question of the cancellation of the licence of such licence-holder . . . " I cannot imagine how a person who happens to park his car in a wrong parking place and becomes convicted of that can cause the police to connect that up with the public interest, and even to go so far as to apply for the cancellation ofthe licence of the licence-holder. The legal representative will be there to argue the case .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It might be dagga. MR. GUZANA : No, they have got that in laws relating to crime generally. We want to know what this other thing is . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It might be anything of a criminal nature. MR. GUZANA: But that they have got in other laws.
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
MR. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman, the laws of this country are numerous and many ofthose laws tie a Bantu hands and feet. I am thinking now in terms of the election campaign • ...
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 20th June , 1967.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point
433.
TUESDAY, 20TH JUNE, 1967
financially unable to carry on the business , has she a legal right to hire the business premises together with the licence to somebody else?
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The reply is simply "No".
The minutes ofthe previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
QUESTION NO. 94. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"(a) Who have tendered to erect Transkei Ministers' houses ?
QUESTIONS THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to draw your attention to the order paper of the 13th June, where in my reply to Question No. 84 I said the matter had been referred to the Municipality of Umtata. I am now able to reply to that question.
(b) Of these who have been accepted by the Tender Board? (c) If of the tenderers there is no African, • were tender invitations extended to African tenderers ? (d) If not, why not?"
REPLY : (a) Mr. E.G. Hall , UM TATA; Messrs . J.R. & M. Moffett, BLOEMFONTEIN; Messrs. C.D. Coombes and Son, UMTATA; Messrs . R.A.H. Bruce & Sons , UMTATA; Messrs . H.M. Russell (pty) Ltd. , EAST LONDON; Messrs . Murray & Steward (Border) , CAMBRIDGE, EAST LONDON; Messrs. G.W. Dewing (Pty) Ltd. , EAST LONDON.
QUESTION NO. 84 Mr. W.M. Madikizela asked the Minister of the Interior : "Whether the Municipality of Umtata issues Hawker's Licences to Africans who apply for them in its area of jurisdiction ? If not, why not?" REPLY: The Municipality of Umtata is not empowered to issue hawker's licences as such. However , in terms of Ordinance No. 15 of 1953 , the Receiver of Receiver, is not entitled to issue a licence until such time as the local authority of the area concerned (in this case , the Municipality of Umtata) has issued a certificate of Registration in terms of the aforementioned Ordinance .
(b) R.A.H. Bruce & Sons , UMTATA. (c) Tenders were invited by notice in the Transkei Gazette and newspapers from all builders , irrespective of race . (d) Falls away. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon. Minister , is he in a position to state when Messrs . R.A.H. Bruce & Sons tender was accepted, and why the buildings are not up now, in view of the fact that the Ministers have not had residences over the past four years ?
Provided applicants comply with the legal requirements , with regard to health, streets , town planning, etc. , certificates of registration (which enable the holder thereof to obtain the necessary licence ) are invariably issued .
QUESTION NO. 93. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) What is the population of residents living at Ramohlakoana Location in Matatiele ? (b) How many people held trading licences in that area? (Native trading licences , butchery licences , eating house licences and any other, if any, ) (c) Out of those people who have such trading licences how many are still functioning and how many are still living and if any dead are their licences still in operation? (d) In view of the law passed by this Assembly in 1965 in respect of the radius regulations between Native trading stations is the area in question able to patronise adequately the existing businesses more so that there are other trading stations in the adjacent localities which are at colse proximity to the said Ramohlakoana Area"
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman , I regret I am unable to give the information required off-hand . There are many factors governing the construction of buildings and I think the hon. member should put his question in writing. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the hon. Minister cannot make an effort to find this information during the course of the day. There should not be any difficulty in ascertaining the date when the tender was accepted and, as far as the other factors relating to the putting up of the houses is concerned , that is the responsibility of the man whose tender has been accepted . THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The tender was accepted recently. MR. GUZANA: " Recently" does not mean a thing to me . "Recently" could very well be last year in July.
REPLY : (a) 2850 persons . (b) Eight. (c) All are functioning . (d) I am unable to reply to this part of the question as my Department has no access to the trading accounts of the persons concerned. Suffice it to say that the granting of the licences concerned was recommended by the Bantu Authorities concerned.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : The hon. member is invited to the office of the Secretary where he will get this information. I am sorry I cannot give him the information straight away.
QUESTION NO. 95. Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu asked the Minister of Education : "Is it not now the time for institution school hostels to be taken over by the Transkei Government ? (a ) If not, what steps are being taken to implement this intention?
MR. ZIBI: Arising from the reply, Mr. Chairman, supposing a trader is a male and he dies and leaves his widow behind , and the widow is
434.
the execution of certain warrants of attachment. I am unable to say whether Mrs. Mbawu will be declared insolvent. (c) Yes . (d) Yes. (e) No. (f) According to information received, no hardship is being caused by the closing of the shop which is not necessarily permanent. In view of the reply to (a) above , the last part of the question falls away.
(b) If such a decision has been taken, what is the impediment to its immediately being implemented ?" REPLY :
a) and (b): This whole matter is at present being thoIt roughly investigated by my Department. must be borne in mind that such a take-over will have far-reaching financial implications , the full extent of which can only be assessed on completion of the current investigations .
MR. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. Minister to the effect that as a result of the closing down of this shop the community round about is not placed in any difficulty, is he aware that the people residing close to this shop have to walk a very long distance to buy a box of matches ? However, the hon. Minister says this shop is not under the BIC . Let us take an example. One of the people at the shop said that this lady received financial help from the BIC and one of the Ministers gave a donation towards the opening of the shop .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, arising from this reply, is this House correct in inferring that it is the policy of the Government to have control over school hostels ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon members , that is the position .
QUESTION NO. 96. Mr. A.G. Sasa asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) Is the Minister in a position to request the Republican Government to allow Transkeian workseekers to sell their labour wherever they like? (b) Will the Minister make a statement to this effect? If not, why not?"
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, you are not This is the time for quesasking a question. tions , not for discussion. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I did not at any stage say that there is no hardship caused by the closing down of this shop . I said "from information received".
REPLY: (a) There is no need for my Department to make such a request to the Republican Government in view of the fact that workseekers have a wide range of employment to choose from in the form of contracts offered by the Labour Bureaux and private recruiting organisations . The whole purpose of both the Labour Bureaux and the recruiting organisations is to bring offers of employment to the workseekers ' doorstep rather than to expose such workseekers to the hardship and frustration that would inevitably result if they were left to compete in an uncontrolled manner on the open labour market. (b) Falls away .
MR. GUZANA : Are you admitting then that the information is wrong? THE
MINISTER
OF THE INTERIOR: No.
MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may the hon. Minister make it clear what he means by saying the shop does not belong to the BIC but belongs to the Trust? Because as far as we know, and we have been informed in this House , and I have documents here as well, the BIC is the Bantu Trust. The Trust does not exist as a body managing affairs in the Transkei .
QUESTION No. 97. Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of the Interior :(a) Is it true that the B.I.C. owns the Fairview shop in the Willowvale district and being under the management of a certain Mrs. Iris Mbawu? (b) That the same shop has been closed down by the Messenger of the Court as from the 30th May, 1967 for insolvency? (c) That the same shop has been broken into and articles are suspected missing; (d) That the same articles have beenfound by the Messenger of the Court in a bus running between Willowvale and Butterworth, some articles being in the hands of Police for investigation ; (e) That the said managing lady has had her house furniture confiscated by police; (f) That owing to this closing down of this shop the community around has to travel to far trading shops for their requirements; If so, what is the B.I.C. doing about the matter ?
THE CHAIRMAN : This is the time for questions , hon. member. Just ask a question and then sit down. MR. DIKO: I am asking if he will show us what he means • THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I will cut this matter short. Will the hon. member table his question, please . QUESTION NO. 98. Mr. P. Mqikela asked the Minister of Justice : (a) How many civil and criminal cases were tried by each tribal authority in the twenty six districts from January, 1966 to March, 1967? (b) Of these , how many became the subject of an appeal to the Magistrate's courts ? (c) Which tribal authorities failed to register their judgements with the clerks of the Magistrates' Courts : (i) where appeals had been noted , and (ii) where their judgements were not the subject of an appeal ?"
REPLY: (a) No. The trading station belongs to the South African Bantu Trust and is leased to Mrs. Mbawu. (b) The shop has been closed down by the Messenger of the Court in connection with
REPLY: (a) There is no provision for the conferment of civil or criminal jurisdiction on tribal
435 .
authorities. (b) and (c) fall away.
anything about order of preference from the hon. Minister.
QUESTION NO. 99. Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Education :"As Ntlaza Secondary School had at the beginning of this year a principal and vice principal posts vacant : (a) Did the Department of Education request the Nyanda Regional Authority's recommendation for these posts ? (b) Who were applicants for these posts ? (c) What were their educational qualifications i.e. post matriculation degrees and also teaching certificates ? (d ) What was their teaching experience in both secondary and high schools and as principals in such schools in each case ? (e) If the Department has not accepted the recommendation of the regional authority what is the reason?"
MR. C.S. MDA: Arising from the reply ofthe hon. Minister, according to that reply , read together with Question No. 105 , it would appear that there is no principal at the Ndaliso Secondary School.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There is a question on Ndaliso where the position is explained.
Yes. (c) and (d) : -
(၁)
REPLY: (a) 1. (b)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The questioner is a member of the Regional Authority of Nyanda and he knows full well what took place there . In any event , I wish to advise him and the House that the Department is not bound by the recommendation of the Regional Authority.
(b)
For Vice-principalship : J.S. Mazwi
Sen. Cert. N.P.H. B.A. U.E.D.
M.M. Mjamekwana For Principalship : W.N. Kewana C.M. Mancotywa
B.A. N.P.L. B.A. Hons . U.E.D. B.A. N.P.H. B.A. N.P.H. B.A. N.P.H.
J.S. Mndela M.M. Nyati C.P. Songca
REPLY: (a) (i) and (ii) – As the reading of the names of all of these schools would take an interminable time , the hon. member is invited to obtain a list of these from the Department . (b) (i) No (ii) Recommendations are sought from regional authorities in consultation with School Committees , subject to final approval by myself in regard to principals and vice-principals of all schools and post-primary assistant teachers . (c) As these are Public Service posts , this question should be put to the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance. (d ) (i) 23. (ii) - (i) , (ii) : Of the applications that have been received , 5 have been approved. 4 schools have been established and are already functioning and a fifth will commence operating in January, 1968 . Of the remainder of the applications , none has been refused and the fact that they have not been formally established must not be construed as a rejection of the applications. (iii) All of the applications cannot be approved of at the same time . The Department has to take cognisance of the fact that there is a shortage of both accommodation and suitably- qualified personnel. Progressive planning has to be maintained and the Department cannot discontinue the supply of facilities at existing schools
(d)
Experience in secondary and high schools
Experience as principal in secondary and high schools
11/2 years
3 months
6 years
Nil
14 years 16 years
Nil 3 years
11 years 21/2 years 1 year
Nil 1 year Nil
QUESTION No. 100. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Education:"(a) What are the names of the (i) eight teacher training schools and (ii) fifty six secondary and high schools in the Transkei? (b) (i) Has the Department a teacher appointment committee ? (ii) If not, why not? (c) Why do Supervisors ' , School Inspectors ' and Circuit Inspectors ' salary scales overlap ? (d) (i) How many secondary school registration applications have been made to the Department ? (ii) Of these how many have · (i) been accepted ? (ii) not been accepted? (iii) what are the reasons for non-acceptance in each case?"
(e) For the vice-principal's post the Regional Authority recommended M. M. Mjamekwana whose appointment was approved. For the principal's post, the Regional Authority recommended C.M. Mancotywa, but, as this applicant has also applied for the principal's post at Ndaliso Secondary School and was offered that post , candidate M.M. Nyati was appointed to the vacancy. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply, did the regional Authority not submit recommendations according to their order of preference ? If that was so, why was Mr. Nyati appointed ifhe was not second in order of preference? I ask this because I did not hear 436 .
in order to establish new ones on a wholesale basis.
(g) None . (h) No. MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Justice , when he replied to (a) he gave the number as two. May I know if M. Makwetu does not belong to that region? Was his family not forcibly removed from St. Mark's area to Xalanga?
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister to paragraph (a) , I wonder if he is aware that a question that is put in this House is not a question only for the member who is asking it, but for the House as a whole. Why is it that when I have asked the question I am told to go and find out from the office? I am not at all satisfied with this reply.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That was done by the Republican Government, Mr. Chairman. I am giving you the names of those people who have been removed since we took over.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, it is highly unreasonable for the hon. in fact, member to mention over 50 schools and expect the Minister to waste the up to 70 time of the House reading those names .
MR. MPONDO: Still arising from the reply, Mr. Chairman, was Vakele's home not destroyed? And was the Republican Government responsible for the destruction of his home ?
QUESTION NO. 101. Mr. Z. Chemane asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"Whether any Bantu officer appointed by the Minister under the provisions of section 3, chapter 1 of the Transkei Road Traffic Bill can examine any motor vehicle in the Transkei ? If not, why not?"
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do hope the I hon. member will appreciate the position. merely gave him the figures of people who were removed since we took over . If he requires more information, then I request him to put his question in writing. It will take some investigation.
REPLY : As the Transkei Road Traffic Act will only come into operation on the 1st January, 1968, no appointments have as yet been made under section 3(1 ) of the Act. In any event, a person appointed as an examiner of vehicles will only be required to examine vehicles produced to him for examination for the purpose of determining whether the vehicle is roadworthy.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think the question as put under (a) was all - comprehenThe sive. You gave yourself a limitation. question is: "Since the introduction of Proclamation R.400 of 1960 ... " Now you say you have given us figures since you took over, but the question is from the time that Proclamation 400 became law.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, that information is not available . We would have to contact the Republican Government.
QUESTION NO. 102 . Mr. O.O.H. Mpondo asked the Minister of Justice :"(a) Since the introduction of Proclamation R.400 of 1960 , how many people have been forcibly removed from their homes or areas of their residence in the Emigrant Tembuland Region? (b) What are the names ofthe people affected ? (c ) From what part to what part ofthe region were individual people sent? (d) What crime or crimes were committed by each person to warrant his or her removal? (e) Before each person was served with a removal order, was his or her case tried at a properly constituted court of law? (f) How many of those unfortunate people's homes were destroyed as a result of the orders of the chief or Paramount Chief in Emigrant Tembuland? (g) How many cattle , horses , sheep or goats were confiscated by chiefs or the Paramount Chief when removal orders were served on the people concerned ? (h) Has a chief or Paramount Chief the right to confiscate the stock belonging to the people served with removal orders ?"
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, is it true that the homestead of Nyovane was destroyed completely, and that his stock was removed to Qamata ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I gave what information I have and it would appear to me that the questioners know much more than I do. MR. W.Z. LUFEFENI : Arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, does he have authority to give instructions that whoever resists this rehabilitation should have his homestead completely destroyed , and that whatever stock he has be transferred to Qamata? And , further , that his family be transferred to a different area altogether ? Is this what takes place in Emigrant Tembuland?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am not prepared to answer that. MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply to ( a) , can the hon. Minister deny that of the 61 head of cattle belonging to Vakele a portion of them was seen roaming about the area of Qamata? Can he further deny that his horse was appropriated by one of the headmen and was sold, and that his small stock was slaughtered at the kraal of the Paramount Chief?
REPLY : (a) Two (b) Mawonga Nkunkuma ; Michael Nyovane. (c) From Xalanga District to St. Marks District. (d) No crimes were committed . They were removed by reason of their active agitation against the implementation of rehabilitation measures. (e) No. These removals were purely administrative measures. (f) One.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , I have nothing to say. MR . MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I would like ...
437 .
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member, the question has now been answered and you seem to be asking some more questions . I won't allow any more questions on this. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Why? THE CHAIRMAN: That is my ruling. Order, please.
QUESTION NO. 103. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Chief Minister :"(a) How many tribal authorities are there in the Kentani district? (b) Who are the heads of these tribal authorities? (c) If there are any, why were they not advertised in the Government Gazette No. 117 of April , 1967 ? (d) If none , why were they not constituted ?" REPLY : (a) 7. (b) Tribal Authority. Kentani/Gcaleka Tutura Teko Nqusi Qolora Kentani/Fingo Nqwara
Head. Acting Chief G. Sigcau Sub- chief M. Mapassa Headman G. Ntsoto Sub-Chief G. Dondashe Chief M. Mnyango Headman M. Ranini Headman G. Maqoma
(c) Because the amendment of the areas of jurisdiction of the Ngqwara and Nqusi Tribal Authorities was being dealt with it was decided to withhold the publication of particulars in connection with all tribal authorities in the Kentani District until the matter was finalised . For the information of the honourable member I wish to point out, however , that although it is obligatory to publish the establishment of tribal authorities it is not the case with the constitution of such authorities . The information contained in the Official Gazette concerned was merely published for the convenience of interested members of the public . Because either changes were contemplated or some authorities had not been reconstituted , a few districts were not included. The particulars in connection with these districts will , however , be published in due course . (d ) Falls away.
QUESTION NO. 104. Mr. W.M. Madikizela asked the Minister of the Interior :"1. Whether the Minister is aware of the position ruling whereby recruits who have no reference books are given temporary identification certificates to proceed to work centres and that during their sojourn their reference books are issued only to be destroyed after six months before they return and collect them , thus landing them into further expense of R2.50c on further applying for these books ? 2. If so , what steps are being taken to remedy this? 3. If not, why not. "
terests of Bantu persons who intend leaving the Transkei for lengthy periods , to ensure that they obtain reference books before their departure . If, by neglecting to do so, they later on have to incur further expense in this connection, they only have themselves to blame. Where, however , it is impossible to obtain a reference book before leaving, arrangements can be made for the book to be forwarded to and uplifted at the office of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner nearest to the place of employment of the party concerned , provided he approaches that Bantu Affairs Commissioner personally or through his employer and requests that it be arranged accordingly. When temporary identification certificates are issued, this procedure is fully explained so that all concerned know exactly what the position is and what they are expected to do. Many employers , especially the big ones , are aware of this practice and are most co- operative . Magistrates in the Transkei are likewise doing whatever is possible to facilitate the handing over of books to the applicants. 2. and 3. No steps are deemed necessary to bring about any change in this procedure , as it is in accordance with standing practice and procedure .
QUESTION NO. 105. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Education :"1. (a) Is the Minister aware of the fact that apart from an unqualified man who is acting, there has been no principal at the Ndaliso Secondary School since January , 1967? (b) For what reasons is this unsatisfactory state of affairs allowed to continue for six months especially as all the teachers on the staff of this school are not qualified ? 2. Arising from the reply of the Minister to question 76(a) (i ) and ( ii ) , is it not educationally sound in principle that : (a) a standard VI candidate is and should be examined in respect of the whole primary school as prescribed ? (b) If a new course is introduced , the candidate should initially be examined in respect of those sections of the course in which it is believed he has been given instruction or alternatively, that he is examined in respect of the whole course on the understanding that the standards for promotion are lowered temporarily to meet the candidate ? (c) Is it not a fact that the abrupt application of English as the sole language of examination during the transition will tend to make the matter being examined difficult to understand and so is likely to cause a greater number of failures and finally will tend to discredit the employment of English as a medium of instruction?"
REPLY : 1. (a) Yes. (b) The post was advertised on 21st October , 1966. There were only 3 applicants of whom one was unqualified and the other under consideration for another vacancy . The third applicant The was the Regional Authority's nominee . Regional Authority's recommendation was not received by the Department until late in January, 1967.
REPLY : 1. The provision that all unclaimed reference books in possession of a magistrate are to be destroyed after six months , is aimed at preventing that such books fall into wrong hands . Books cannot be posted to the parties concerned as the thumb- impression of the applicant must be obtained in order to avoid malpractices. The onus of applying for , and obtaining , a reference book rests on every Bantu who has attained the age of sixteen years , and it will be in the in-
I approved of the applicant's appointment on 8th February and he was notified of this on 21st February . As the Department received no reply of acceptance or rejection of the offer , he
438.
was sent a telegram on 13th March. On 20th March he wrote to say that he was no longer available . On 15th April he again wrote applying for a vacancy. To save re-advertisement and the consequent delay and, as the other applicant had already been appointed elsewhere, he was once more offered the same post. On 5th May, he accepted the offer but with the reservation that he could only take up the vacancy at the commencement of the new semester in July, as he had to serve his period of notice, subsequent to his resignation in his existing post which is outside of the Transkei .
THE CHAIRMAN: This is the time for questions, hon. member. I won't allow that. MR.
DIKO:
Questions
are
finished now.
THE CHAIRMAN: I won't allow that. It is not on the order paper. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, is it not a fact that this matter of the medium according to this new syllabus was considered by this House when I raised these same matters (although they don't happen to appear in the Blue Book) that children who should be examined strictly in this new medium are candidates who are produced by this new system ?
2. (a) No. Std. VI candidates are only examined in respect of the course laid down in the Std. VI syllabus and are not required to be examined in respect of the syllabus pertaining tothe whole of the primary school as suggested. (b) The reply to Question 76(a) (ii) quite clearly indicates that the Department made generous allowances in the 1966 Std . VI examinations. (c) No. There was no abrupt application of English as the sole language used for examination purposes . Teachers were informed as early as mid-year of 1964 of the change of medium . The replies to Question 76 (a ) (i ) and (ii) make this quite clear and generous allowances were made to pupils .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, does this question arise from the Minister's reply? MR. BUBU: Yes , it does arise from the reply. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It does not. new question.
It is a
MR. BUBU: It arises from the reply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The hon. member has already said that what he is asking does not appear anywhere. I am unable to say whether that was the case or not.
MR. BUBU: Arising out of the reply, Mr. Chairman, is it true that the change of medium was effected in 1964? Because what took place in 1964 was only the fact that the schools were made to decide which medium they would accept. In any case an understanding was given in this House last year
MR. BUBU: My last question is this : Was this not part of the record of the discussions in this House, so that it should have appeared in the Blue Book? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who left it out? We have a stenographer here. Are you inferring that she left it out?
THE CHAIRMAN: Just ask a question, hon. member, and then sit down.
MR. BUBU: No, I am not. I want to know how it was left out. I am asking this because that record does not appear in the Hansard . The hon. the Chief Minister was the next speaker and he complimented me on the remarks I made. Have you seen to it that this has been omitted from the record so that you can get away with it, as you are trying to do now?
MR. BUBU: I will put that question to the hon. Minister. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The reply says that the teachers were advised in 1964 of the change . MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Arising from the reply of the hon. Minister, unless I have got him wrong, I think I heard him say that they gave the recommendation on the 8th February , and then they advised the applicant on the 21st. What was the delay in advising the gentleman about this ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are making an unfair imputation. You say it has been expunged from the record because .... (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In reply to the hon. Mr. Bubu, I hope the hon. member, when he comes late, will give himself time to listen and understand what we are talking about. I explained everything while he was away. In any event, I approved the applicant's appointment on the 8th February, and he was notified on the 21st February. I do not see where the long delay is, considering the number of posts and teachers we have to contend with in the Department.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you prepared to answer ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not going to answer that chunk of nonsense .
MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman , may I speak on a point of order? THE CHAIRMAN: I won't allow that. told you I am dealing with questions.
MR. C.S. MDA: How did the Regional Authority justify the delay on their part in recommending the appointment ?
I have
MR. DIKO: Now does this point of order have to come after the questions ? THE CHAIRMAN: No, it is not on the order paper. I will not allow it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a question for the Regional Authority. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, may I be allowled by you at this stage to make an observation on something which I consider to be most irregular in this House?
439.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House resolve itself into committee. THE CHAIRMAN: We shall adjourn now until a quarter past 2.
way in which amendments are usually made .
AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.
MR. DIKO: The hon. Mr. Mpondo is right when he is asking for motivation on the amendment, because he has not put this amendment in in the time that is laid down. And if he speaks in such a low . tone we would ask that his deputy, the hon. Mr. George Matanzima , speak for him. (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the Deputy Chairman to take his chair. TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAW BILL COMMITTEE STAGE
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I do not think it is incumbent upon me to allow the House to deal with this amendment now. It will be a matter to be considered by the Chairman of the House .
House in Committee THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave the indulgence of the House to introduce two further amendments :- In the definition of "on-consumption licence " to insert after the words "club licence" on page 3, paragraph (xxxii) the words " a late hours licence " . Also in clause 125 I wish to move that we introduce a further sub- clause , the existing sub- clause (2) becoming sub-clause (3), and the new sub-clause (2 ) to read thus:-
"(2) Any liquor or thing seized under the authority of this Act or of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1955 (Act No. 56 of 1955 ) shall, together with any vessels in which the same is contained be forfeited unless (a) in the case where such liquor or thing forms the subject of the prosecution of the person in whose possession it was seized, the court finds that the liquor or thing was not possessed by him in contravention of any provision of this Act or any other law; or (b) in any other case if the person from whom such liquor or thing was taken proves within thirty days ofthe seizure to the satisfaction of the Minister that the possession thereof by himself or any other person was not for an unlawful purpose . " Further, Mr. Chairman, that the following proviso be substituted for the proviso to the existing sub-clause (2) , now sub- clause (3 ) :"Provided that the court or the Minister , as the case may be , may in its or his discretion order that any such liquor or thing be destroyed or that it be dealt with in such other manner as the court or the Minister may direct. " MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , could the hon. Minister explain to the House what prompted him to put in this amendment ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Can't we deal with it when we come to that section? MR. C. DIKO: Hasn't the hon. Minister any amendments to the sections we have passed ? E.g. , there is the nonsense to the effect that the Board will consist of Europeans only. Can't we bring in amendments about that? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What is that ? MR. DIKO: It says here " The Secretary, magistrate and any other European (Laughter)
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, if I may suggest, Sir, the Chairman of the House does not sit as chairman of this House in committee. You are the only one who does so. There are two amendments and the hon. the Minister of Justice has asked for special leave to have these amendments dealt with during the committee stage . The first amendment relates to Chapter 1 with which we have dealt already, and probably it is in relation to that amendment that some of the hon. members asked for motivation as to the reason why. The other amendment relates to a section with which we have not dealt at present , and we shall consider it when we get to that section. The hon. Minister has merely asked for leave to introduce them since he would have had to give at least a day's notice for such amendments . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree ? MR. DIKO: No , Mr. Chairman, I want to speak on that. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No , I will not allow you . Does the House agree that rule 108 be waived in this connection? MR . DIKO: Mr. Chairman , there was no motion to that effect and you must allow us to voice our views. Your judgment was correct that you are not the man to deal with amendments introduced in the House. It is the Chairman of the House to whom amendments must be given, and we can only be misled by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this House is not going to be misled by the hon. the Deputy Leader of the Sub- Opposition. (Laughter) The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has placed the position as it is before you , Mr. Chairman. When you preside there as Chairman of the House in committee you deal with all matters that come before you in your capacity as such. MR . DIKO: This is an amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are the Chairman, and we deal here with the Bill clause If there is any amendment on the by clause . section or the clause you are the competent chairman to deal with such. MR. DIKO: The amendment must be given in the afternoon of the previous day.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I note that the hon. Minister is making amendments . I do not know whether I am making a mistake , but this does not appear to be in keeping with the rules of the House . Or is it suggested that that rule be waived? If that is the case would the amendment be put in in the ordinary 440 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is precisely why the hon. the Minister of Justice is asking for leave of this House sitting in committee. It would be irregular for the Chairman of
the House to come here and deal with matters appertaining to the Bill with which we are dealing in committee .
and it might be very, very difficult to punish the wrong-doers as far as this piece of legislation is concerned . I know to any legal practitioner this creates a very heavy duty on him in the defence of any client who is charged under this piece of legislation.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the hon. Minister if he requests that rule 108 be waived.
MR . GUZANA : And the position becomes worse when the accused has no legal representative .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I will request that the rule be waived . If you will allow me to explain , this portion which I inserted does appear on the "on-consumption" licences and it was inadvertently omitted in the definitions . It is just to regularize the matter .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have read through these presumptions and I find that they are all quite reasonable. MR.
Agreed to.
GUZANA : That is what I am com-
plaining against. (Laughter)
The amendment put and greed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You take, for instance , the case of a person who may not even be a liquor licence -holder hoarding dozens and dozens of bottles , and found in possession of . hoards and hoards of bottles . The State might be called upon to prove that he kept those bottles with the intention of selling them. How is the State going to prove that ?
On Clause 101 (continued) MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister was going to illustrate on that mysterious object described by a two word phrase - "other thing". THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I shall draw the attention of the hon members to section 63 , sub- section (b) , where are listed some of the things which may not be sold by a liquor licence -holder, unless he has the appropriate licence to deal in such. Now, the phrase " or other thing" is merely to save listing those things which are listed in sub- section 63 (b).
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What the law does is to say: You have so many bottles unreasonably above the number you can use for your family, your friends , your employees and everybody else.
MR. GUZANA : A legislator should never be lazy to make his meaning clear.
OPPOSITION MEMBER: He might keep them for a year .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Anyone who is not versed in legal language will always call it a bad language . (laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Now, the law merely says it is presumed that when a person is found under such circumstances , the intention was to sell the liquor, and it is for him to explain to the satisfaction of the court that he did not hoard those bottles for sale. As the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows , the onus on the accused is not the same as the onus on The accused , unlike the State , does the State .
MR . GUZANA: How is he going to disprove that?
MR. GUZANA: If anything , a legislator should be quite explicit in his terminology.
Clause 101 put and agreed to. Clauses
102 and 103 put and agreed to.
not have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt. He merely has to give an explanation which might reasonably be true , and once he does that the onus shifts back to the State.
On Clause 104 MR. GUZANA : I have only this comment, Mr. Chairman, that the tendency is by legislation to presume the accused man guilty, as against the common law presumption that a man is not guilty until he is so proved. Legislators have the tendency of undermining that fundamental principle of law by creating presumptions which throw the onus on the accused. We want to point out that this is a very grave development which undermines the process of law in the sense that the State finds it easy to prove a case because the presumption is against the accused ; and my complaint against this clause is that it presumes the accused to be guilty until he proves his innocence .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, that's It presumes him to be, but he has to right. give an explanation which can reasonably be true and then the onus shifts back to the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows very well that even in Gardiner's Criminal Law and Procedure it is provided that there are some statutes where the onus of proof is put on the accused . There is reason for that. If in every case the onus had to be placed on the State , the persons would break the law more easily and with all impunity, especially in statutes such as the one we are trying to enact here. To my knowledge and experience , there is no statute which people are ever keen to break more than the liquor laws ,
MR. MADIKIZELA : • where it is presumed that he was going to consume this liquor. Take a case where I have five bottles of liquor and I am required to prove that these were not for Then he turns round and says the State sale. must prove that I was going to sell the liquor, so that proof ought to come from one side and not from both sides - either the State or the accused , seeing that the person is not presumed to have The presumption is that he has not stolen. stolen and you keep on saying " reasonable ,
MR . GUZANA : But the point is that the law presumes him to be guilty. That is what I complain about.
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : There is this point about reasonable doubt .... .. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This is !tw. You know nothing about law. Sit down.
441 .
reasonable " .
liquor was sold if the court is satisfied that, notwithstanding the absence of proof of the passing of money, a transaction in the nature of a sale took place or that consumption of liquor was about to take place . That is , if the court is satisfied .
What does this mean exactly?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: When the time comes for us to deal with Native law and custom we shall allow you to talk as much as possible. (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, I am inthe dark now, for in selling anything one person passes the article and the other hands over the cash, or whatever is used to buy the article. If you find a customer here , and there is the liquor, how do you come to the conclusion that liquor was being sold to that individual when he does not have the liquor that he says he has got from me? How do you arrive at the conclusion that there was buying and selling?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The position is that we cannot imagine a case where a person is found with five bottles , being sent to court for that. The police officer might ask you what you are going to do with all those bottles , and you say you are going to have a That is enough . What is meant is that party. he must have cases and cases.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That will be gathered from the nature ofthe evidence presented to the court. The court will not just say it is satisfied without evidence , hence this phrase "to the satisfaction of the court" .
MR. MADIKIZELA: And you are obliged to deceive because you are not going to have a party. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have been obliged to deceive many times without that, so I don't think it comes into the question. There is not a single man here who can say he has not deceived - even the reverend gentleman himself. (Laughter) Now we see your plan, hon. You don't seem to be wanting to go member. home. Each time we try to answer you, you argue another question and , for that matter, we find you very loquacious when we come to the end of the session. Now, when we come to reasonableness I said that it is the duty of the State in every criminal case to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. Now, that is the difference between the onus which is on the State and the onus which is on the accused . The accused may only give an excuse which need not be true , as long as it might reasonably be true.
MR. A.G. SASA : Why should the people be put to the trouble of having to get an attorney to defend them when you have invited them to a place where there was liquor for sale ? Seeing that there was no instance of breaking in and stealing of liquor , why was this question of liquor brought here ? (Laughter)
Clause 105 put and agreed to. Clause 106 put and agreed to. On Clause 107 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the onus thrown on the accused will be very heavy, where it is stated , in evidence , that any liquor was supplied to any person upon the licenced premises by any member of the family , or any agent or employee , of the licence- holder shall be prima facie proofthat such liquor was supplied by or on behalf of the licence -holder .
MR. MADIKIZELA: Why do you put the onus on the accused ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Because there are cases where it might be difficult for the State to prove the guilt of the accused .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I have already referred to the fact that the liquor laws are some of the laws which are most easily contravened , because invariably after persons have consumed liquor during hours , for instance , they might find themselves itching to have more and more liquor , and that is always a temptation to the liquor licence -holders to sell Now, these persons liquor even after hours . listed here are persons under the authority of the licence-holder and if they should sell your supply of liquor to anybody illegally, the law must : presume that the licence - holder knew about it and it was done with his consent or authority.
Clause 104 put and agreed to. On Clause 105
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Motivation, please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On what? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister asked yesterday that the members should be specific. Just tell him what you want. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This is exactly the same thing as we were discussing just now when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked about the onus being put on the accused . (Interjections)
MR. K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman, I am thinking of an employee who serves notice to relinquish his duties to his employer , the licence - holder , such notice resulting from a misunderstanding between employer and employee , and, being aware of section 107 , the employee sells the liquor because he is aware that it is the employer that will be prosecuted . I would like the hon. Minister to explain.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am a Minister, and the duty and responsibility of the Ministers is vicarious , if you understand the language .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have often said in this House that when legislators legislate they don't legislate for isolated and exceptional cases . The question of an employee bearing a grudge against the employer because he happens to have been dismissed is one of the isolated instances . In any event, as I have said , the employer can always say that
MR. GUZANA: It is never vicarious. It would be dangerous if it were vicarious . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As long as they act within the scope of their duties . It says in any proceedings under this Act, relating to any unlawful sale of liquor , it shall be presumed that 442.
The has been regarded for years as right. learned author states that all the prohibitions of the Act are to be regarded as absolute save where it is expressly provided to the contrary, and he points out that in terms ofsection 158 of Act No. 30 of 1928, no mistake offact , however bona fide, should afford any excuse and the accused, notwithstanding his belief in a state of affairs which, had it in fact existed , would have saved his conduct from the taint of illegality, is nevertheless criminally liable. It may be a harsh provision that the legislature enacted ...
this man has done this because he wants to implicate him because he sacked the employee , bearing in mind that the courts are reasonable. Clause 107 put and agreed to. Clauses
108 to
110 put
and agreed to.
On Clause 111 MR. GUZANA: Please just give us a short motivation on (1).
MR. GUZANA : It is
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This provision is meant for cases where perhaps there is a doubt as to whether what is the subject of the charge is, in fact, intoxicating liquor. It may be necessary to get the evidence of an analyst. This says that the analyst need not be called as a witness , but that the production of a certificate under his hand will suffice . Sub- section (2) provides for interrogatories .
that is the point.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : · • • .but in their wisdom they enacted this , and we have to give effect to it. MR. GUZANA: Now we are questioning the wisdom of doing that. That is the author commenting on what the legislature has done. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I will read
MR. GUZANA: It says the accused shall , in lieu of requiring the attendance of such analyst or chemist, be entitled to put to him interrogatories in writing. I take it if the accused insists on his attendance that he would be compelled to attend , because these interrogatories are not the best ways of getting evidence from an analyst or a chemist.
it further when I reply to you. MR. GUZANA: Nowwe are the legislators and I do feel there is no justification for this provision. Can we honestly say that a bona fide misake of fact such as is indicated by the example I gave cannot be a defence , rendering a person not guilty in the sense that all the facts presented to him established the fact that the seller has a licence to brew and sell liquor ? That is the point.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes. Clause 111 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I shall read further : " On the other hand, there is something to be said in favour of it. The legislature has regarded an offence of this character as one of grave nature. "
Clause 112 put and agreed to. On Clause 113 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I have my misgivings about these provisions . If a man acts bona fide , can he be said to have intended to breach the law? It may well be that the proof of the fact is beyond his ability and it is presumed to be a fact, and then he acts upon it. Thus a man who holds out that he is a brewer may offer to me ten cases of liquor. He has got all the stationery which indicates that he is owning a brewery and when I have bought these ten cases of liquor he makes out a cash invoice , and I retain this and I honestly believe that he has a licence to deal in liquor. The observable facts presented to me as a licence -holder substantiate the fact that he is a brewer , and I have bona fide bought from him. And there I am caught, because it is said that even if I act bona fide I am This really is a still contravening the law. bona fide mistake of fact, and the fact that this has been a misrepresentation only comes to my notice when I am apprehended because were I to discover before the apprehension it would be my duty to report to the police , but I have not had reason to do so.
MR. GUZANA : What was the offence there? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It was under this section. MR . W. MADIKIZELA: The hon. the Minister of Justice informed us that this law did not refer to the Republic , nor to any other part of the country outside the Transkei , but only to the Transkei . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition points out that there is injustice in this and, like a new legislator , he is trying to draw your attention to this point. You are making it even clearer when the hon. Minister said that this was a new law, not attaching to anything other than itself, and you are making reference to that book from which you quoted . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You know we have got the maize seed which we call "hybrid", and that hybrid is a result of crossNow you pollination between different seeds. cannot say that the hybrid is not a new type of seed , just because it has as its origin some old seeds. While we are enacting this Act for the Transkei , it does not mean we have not taken sections from other laws . What the hon. the Minister of Justice said was merely that this law is the law which is intended to apply in the Transkei. He never said there were no sections which were borrowed from other laws.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, to my mind I think a bona fide mistake of fact would come in in mitigation but would not absolve the accused from criminal liability . I might add that this section is a section of long standing as far as the liquor laws are concerIn the case of Rex vs. Black. ned.
Clause 113 put and agreed to.
MR. GUZANA: Now, you know a wrong is a wrong even if it is as old as the hills.
Clause 114 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am showing you it is not wrong. It is something which
On Clause 115 443.
MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, I just want an explanation from the hon. Minister on this , because there is sufficient resemblance between "amarewu" and Bantu beer.
exclusive right, other licence -holders are not prohibited from selling Bantu beer , provided of course such beer is acquired from the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This merely means that it will require the beer to be analysed .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . You will still have time to ask your questions . Please listen .
Clause 115 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Hon. members should further note that there is no obligation on the Minister to grant the Xhosa Development Corporation this exclusive right. The clause clearly reads "the Minister may ......" In other words , this provision merely makes it possible for the Minister to grant the Xhosa Development Corporation the exclusive right if, in his opinion , it would be in the public interest. Furthermore (and this is important) the Minister can only do so upon the recommendation of the Board. Finally, I wish to point out that although the provision does affect the right of brewing for own consumption, I doubt whether any person would be able to brew a small quantity of beer as scientifically and economically as the Xhosa Development Corporation with its modern equipment. (interjections ) Iam certain that the people will be only too happy to purchase beer manufactured by the Xhosa Development Corporation (Interjections)
Clause 116 put and agreed to. On Clause 117 MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I am interested in particular in the proviso on page 37 , that if the licence-holder has directed and given instructions prohibiting any act or omission under this section that shall not be accepted as sufficient proof that he had taken all reasonable steps . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The point here is that the licence -holder cannot just give insturctions . He must followthem up and see that they are carried out. MR. GUZANA: He may not be there. He may give instructions that a certain thing should not be done , leave and come back to find that it has been done. How can he stop that? Clause 117 put and agreed to.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
On Clause 118
· · .rather THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : than to go to the expense and trouble of brewing their own beer.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I would like to read a note on this clause , Mr. Chairman . In the Republic there is a special Act which deals with Bantu beer. The provisions of this section are similar to the provisions contained in that Act. At present the Bantu Beer Act, 1962 , makes provision for the exclusive right of urban local authorities to brew and supply Bantu beer. It is considered that these provisions have proved to be in the interests of the Bantu people because (a) it prevented exploitation of the Bantu by private concerns ; and (b) ivided funds which could be appropriated for the development and There are very welfare of the Bantu people . good reasons why in the Transkei also, as in the Republic (a) Bantu beer should be treated differently from other kinds of liquor ; and (b) provision should be made for the sale and distribution of Bantu beer through particular channels where necessary . I had already referred to this prospect in my second reading speech. It is anticipated that Bantu beer will shortly be sold and supplied in many of the urban areas of the Transkei under the provisions of the Bantu Beer Act, and that the beer will be brewed and distributed by the Xhosa Development Corporation on behalf of the urban local authorities . The urban areas concerned may, and will, in future become a part of the Transkei in which event the Transkei Liquor Law will apply in such areas. It will then be possible under the provisions of clause 118 to maintain the status quo in regard to the brewing and supply of Bantu beer in the said areas by the Xhosa Development Corporation. The Xhosa Development Corporation is not a private company which maintains and appropriates profits for its own benefit. On the contrary, the corporation has been created , and its profits are being appropriated, for the benefit of the Xhosa people . To grant the Xhosa Development Corporation an exclusive right in regard to Bantu beer will ensure that the whole community will benefit from its activities in this field. Hon. members should also note that where the Xhosa Development Corporation has an
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase has certain amendments to move . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I think there is an amendment (f) , by the hon. Mr. Diko to completely delete clause 118. If I am in order I would request that we begin with that amendment.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , you either carry on with yours or withdraw it in favour of Mr. Diko. CHIEF NDAMASE : I am not withdrawing . I am waiting for the Chairman to give me his ruling. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have already called upon the hon. Chief Ndamase to move his amendment. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I will abide by your ruling. First of all, I wish to insert the words " or anybody" instead of "or any suitable person" . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is wrong with "person" ? CHIEF NDAMASE : I think " anybody" will be better. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Now you are changing your amendment to read "or anybody"? CHIEF NDAMASE : In amendment (iii ) I have made it " anybody" "and I would like to make it the same in this one. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ?
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this Bill is being prepared for the future. In the Maluti region we already have such a town. We ought to make provision that the Minister must be advised by the Advisory Board , so that the Xhosa Development Corporation may not be granted this privilege even before they have And, by the way, the Xhosa applied for it. Development Corporation is composed of Europeans and I do not knowwhat power you have over such a corporation. (Interjections ) You are giving to the European people what ought to be of economic value to the Bantu people .
MEMBERS : No. CHIEF NDAMASE : In this amendment, Mr. Chairman, we are aware that efforts are being made to prepare for the Xhosa Development Corporation so that they may have the monopoly and as the Minister may be in a position to grant such a monopoly I have put in this amendment to provide for an individual or agroup of individuals or a society to have the right, because I had in mind that if the Xhosa Development Corporation is given authority to brew beer, say, in Butterworth, I am not opposed to that monopoly being granted in that particular area, but there may be a group or syndicate in Umtata where the Xhosa Development Corporation has not been given the monopoly, which may ask for a licence . If there is no provision to give them this privilege except such as is given to the Xhosa Development Corporation, it may be impossible for any such syndicate to have the licence issued to them, and it is surprising that my hon. chiefs should promulgate a law such as this one . As the hon. Minister has said, they are trying to do something which the Republican Government has provided in its laws. The Republican law is quite different from this According to section 6 of Act No. 63 of one. 1962 the Minister will only grant this following an application from a local authority, and even in that case the Minister will not act contrary to the opinion of the advisory board or the Bantu Township Council . In this Bill the Minister says it will merely depend on his discretion. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What about the Liquor Board? CHIEF NDAMASE: The hon. Minister reminds me of the Liquor Board, but even in the Republican law the Liquor Board is provided for in this regard , that the Minister will take the advice of the Advisory Board which is the representative of the people, and they refer it to the Minister in the Republican Government, whereas in this case the Minister does not have For a to be advised by the Bantu people . long time this Liquor Board will be composed of, say, two Europeans and one African, and when there is a vote the one African will always lose the vote. I appeal to the hon. members to try and work for the Bantu people, as we are being told we are being trained to be able to serve our own people. We further like to be trained to support ourselves economically. What we are keen for is that each individual must be free to work for himself. It would appear as though the right type ofbeer is that which will be brewed by the Xhosa Development Corporation, and yet when they came here we were already in the process of making our own beer. There are inspectors who will inspect this beer and will they pass beer made by the Europeans and not that which is brewed by the Bantu? The law provides that the alcohol content must be of a certain percentage in any liquor. Is there any such provision in this Bill ? The Republican law provides that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We are dealing with this law, not the Republican law. CHIEF NDAMASE : If there is no such provision I appeal to you to have it, and if you have any such provision then you are still under the laws of the Republican Government. We appeal to the hon. Minister that in making any such decision he should listen and take the advice of the board or the representative bodies of the local people in that particular area. The hon. member asked where are our towns , but we believe
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in speaking to this amendment I wish to say that to grant the exclusive right to any corporation other than the Xhosa Development Corporation would defeat the object of this provision. The Xhosa Development Corporation is not a private company which is doing business for its own benefit. (Interjections) On the contrary, it has been created by statute for the benefit of the Xhosa people. As explained in the notes I read you on clause 118 , the Xhosa Development Corporation is, in respect of Bantu beer in urban areas , the successor of the urban local authorities who have the exclusive right under the Bantu Beer Act , 1962. Furthermore, while the granting of an exclusive right to the Xhosa Development Corporation could not be regarded as creating an undesirable monopoly because, as in the case ofurban local authorities, its profits are appropriated for the benefit of the whole community, the granting of such right to private individuals and companies might very well amount to the creation of an undesirable monopoly. The Minister has to guard against undesirable monopolies . The hon. member does not realise that after the inclusion in the Transkei of the present White areas there will be no longer Advisory Boards , (Interjections) or similar bodies as referred to in the proposed amendment. There will only be Bantu municipalities or councils . The proposed amendment is therefore unsuitable and unnecessary.
MR. C. DIKO: You must consult those municipal bodies you talk of.
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman , I stand up to support the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase to the effect that the monopoly to brew beer must not be granted only to the Xhosa Development Corporation . The hon. Minister has said that it is the beer brewed by this Corporation that will be found suitable. Iwould like to point out to him that even his great-grandfather was born and found the Bantu people brewing beer, and they were very skilled in the brewing of that beer. I remember a statement made by a certain medical officer in the Health Department in the Transkei to the effect that the beer brewed by the Bantu people was very beneficial in that it contained certain vitamins . He went further to say that it would even be more useful to give young children a mug of that beer a day. The statement was made by a European medical practitioner. The hon. Minister knows nothing about health matters . You may make this matter for play in this Assembly, but the people are surprised, and you are suppressing the people. They will say that when they were under the real European they were quite happy, but now that you have been given power you are suppressing them . Your successors will curse your grave. Instead of their saying " Reast in peace " when they get to your grave they will say " Rest
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do not want to mention names. All I am saying is that the Secretaries must cease to interfere with the House .
in pieces ". (Laughter ) The people are aware that you came to this building and you deprived them of their privileges . I realise that you are making fun of what is happening in this House and the people will come to the conclusion that in these Bantustans only such laws as appertain to the Bantu will operate , and they will say it was better in the time when they were under the Republican Government because you suppressed your own people , whereas the Europeans help and uplift their people . The Europeans , who are very clever, thought they should put the Bantu people to suppress their own people . You are
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is completely out of order .. He can make a motion and bring such a discussion to the House , but he is completely out of order . MR. DIKO: As I have craved for indulgence I will ask the hon. the Chief Minister not to interfere with my remarks.
depriving the people of the privilege of making their own beer. With those words therefore , I support the amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member, I think you will have to make a motion on this. MR. DIKO: In any case , they must stop interfering.
The debate was adjourned. House Resumed
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are talking nonsense. You must go to Cape Town and study parliamentary procedure .
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 21st June, 1967.
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree that the House should go into committee?
WEDNESDAY, 21ST JUNE , 1967
Agreed to.. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. House in Committee
Prayers were read. The debate on clause 118 was resumed. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , from information received I have been made to understand that a scathing attack was made on the Government by the hon. member from Nyanda region for having inserted this clause in the Bill. In doing so , he purpoted to be the custodian of the interests of the people of the Transkei in this chamber . He said that the Bill would destroy the sons of the Transkei . Now, I want to make it clear that the hon. members across the floor should understand that they are the people who are opposed to the interests of the people of the Transkei. They are the people who have agitated that the White people should have the monopoly of trade in these areas .
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the Report of the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund. TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAW BILL COMMITTEE STAGE THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House resolve itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : That is incorrect. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman , before the House resolves itself into committee , may I crave your indulgence to make certain remarks. The remarks I am going to make must not in any way be taken as a personal attack on any particular person. I am here in this Assembly just as any other member to make it a success . To make it a success I sincerely believe that every member must get the right to free expression in the House . By a majority vote we elected the Chairman of this House to see to it that the House is in running order . That means the House has the fullest confidence in the Chairman and will always bow down to his ruling at all costs . While we appreciate the loaned Secretaries to assist us in this Assembly, they have no right to stand up and voice their opinion, so we would not like to speak about them in a way which will affect them when they cannot answer for themselves , so the observation I want to make is to the Chairman, to the Cabinet and to the officials loaned to us , that the Secretaries must cease , any of them who have the habit of interfering with the discretion of the Chairman. The members of the Opposition side will agree with me that on many occasions we have seen slips of paper passed to the Chairman and gestures made facially to the Chairman, or the hon. the Chief Minister stands up to say something which he himself did not think of. At this stage I
MR . C.S. MDA : We have never said that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Intheir multi - racial policy they know perfectly well that only the White people have the capital to have any business or interest in the Transkei . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : They have actually agitated that any private enterprise should be allowed to come into the Transkei and set up these industries . (Interjections) MR. B.S. RAJUILI: We have advocated that, not agitated. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We know perfectly well that they are the biggest opportunists the country can have. We know perfectly well that in opposing this section . OP POSITION MEMBER : monopoly.
This
section on
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Keep quiet. In opposing this section they are just trying to show their true colours in that they are vehemently opposed to anything the Transkei Government will do in
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the
Transkei
in order to stimulate ·
OPPOSITION MEMBER: That is incorrect. You are distorting the facts.
sands of people. What are you talking about? You are so ignorant. You must move out of the Transkei. ( Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am trying to lay out your policy. That is your policy. (Interjections) Keep quiet. I am going to clamp on you, you idiots . You will have a chance to reply. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please . THE CHIEF MINISTER: We know perfectly well that they are so vehemently opposed to the Republican Government that they will do anything to oppose the stimulation of industry bythe Xhosa Development Corporation. I want to assure them that the Government is so levelheaded that they will not listen ....(Interjections) MR. RAJUILI : Which Government? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They will not pay attention to any attempts to muddle them. I am going to give you the facts . The Government has taken a whole year over this Bill and they found it fitting to insert this section. Now, I will tell you the position, ifyou keep quiet. You know perfectly well that the towns are in the Republic. All the towns in the Transkei are still controlled by the Republican Government. (Interjections) That you know. MR. MDA: So what is controlled by the Africans? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, will appeal to you to tell these ..
I
MR. RAJUILI : He has had a chance , but he has nothing to say. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Just tell these empty-headed owls on the other side to keep quiet. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Order.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. member for Bizana has been so confined to Bizana that he knows nothing about what is happening in the rest of the Republic. (Interjections) Now, in order to stop this debate I want to read to you a proclamation that has been issued in this connection. OPPOSITION MEMBER: By whom? THE CHIEF MINISTER: By the Republican Government, and that proclamation covers the towns in the Republic. This is proclamation No. 130 of 1967. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Listen please, hon. members. This is something new. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Under this Proclamation the Xhosa Development Corporation is given exclusive right to brew beer in the urban areas of the Bantu homelands of the Republic. MR. RAJUILI: Till when?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Section 2 reads : "Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law the Corporation may, with due regard to the provisions of this Proclamation, manufacture , sell and supply Bantu beer on a site or premises within the Transkei approved by the Minister subject to such conditions or restrictions as he may deem fit to impose. " In any event, Mr. Chairman, we know perfectly well that the hon. members have a habit of distorting these sections. Section 118 is merely permissive . It says the Minister "may". It does not say that he shall . It is merely permissive . (Interjections) The whole discretion is left to the Government. It is all right - you may reject it, but you are not going to move the Government party in so far as this is concerned. You are going to tell the people a lot of nonsense . The Government and the caucus on the Government side have gone thoroughly over this section and the section will stand. ( Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are so opposed to the Transkei Constitution and that is why you ...
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
MR . MDA: What does the Transkei Government control in the Transkei ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not going to listen to agitators - people who take their instructions from abroad.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We control you. You know perfectly well that the Development Corporation has been established to stimulate industrial development in the Transkei . MR. MDA: At the expense ofprivate initiative . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , of course, by your Jews , you see - your Jingoes . (Interjections) You know perfectly that the Government of the Republic is the body that has capital to stimulate industrial development.
MR. MDA: Even Bantu beer ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You know that the establishment of an industry in the Transkei will involve thousands or even millions of rand. (Interjections ) You know that a factory to brew Bantu beer is an industry. It will employ thou447.
MR. RAJUILI : What is the meaning of that? That is meaningless . What is "from abroad" ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You know what I mean. We know where you take your instructions from. We are not going to listen to you because we know with whom you communicate. You pretend to come here and act in the interests of the people when you are really negative . (Interjections) You know perfectly that the establishment of industries is in the interests of the You know perfectly people of the Transkei. that the people of the Transkei want industrial development. The people know you thoroughly, and you will not even go and address them on this matter. MR. MDA: We shall do so.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : All you do is to go
and use insulting language and insult the chiefs in presence of their subjects . That is what you do. You go and insult the chiefs in the presence of their subjects . You will not go and address any meetings from this chamber unless you go and have night meetings . (Interjections )
will be the last. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No, we want to speak on this. MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the subject matter before us is well known and I am not interested in it. I rise up because some unscrupulous person went and pumped up the Chief Minister to come and make this unwarranted noise here this morning. Indeed , it reminded me once of going through some village and a little pup was let loose from its chain , (Laughter) and the moment it began to yap, you know everbody comes to find out what can be happening. Nevertheless the principle involved in the amendment sought should show this lowlevel-headed Government their stupidity. Here is a Chief Minister coming to tell us that for the whole year they have been studying liquor and liquor laws , instead of bringing better things to the Transkei . (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase in the amendment he put forward. The purpose and aim of this amendment is that the Xhosa Development Corporation must not be given a monopoly and a right that is theirs and theirs alone. Let the whole House be assured that we are not opposed to the Xhosa Development Corporation brewing beer in the Transkei . We are opposed to it being given the monopoly. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The section says "may" . It is only permissive and it is only in the towns too.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : He did not say that. MR . NOTA: We have accepted the principle that the Government may extend the hand ofhelp in many of the affairs of the Transkei Government.
MR. RAJUILI : In fact , I was wondering (because I know he is a teetotaller) if this hon. Minister did not make him taste this stuff. (Laughter) Hooting like an owl this morning, this is what he said - that this side of the House is always against everything that is done by the Republican Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: When have you accepted that? You have never done that. MR. NOTA: We have accepted it in that we have accepted the money from the Republican Government, but we are opposed to the fact that the Republican Government should assist us where we can ourselves do the work. We grow our mealies and Kaffircorn in the Transkei. That is the raw material from which we can brew beer. All the women in the Transkei have knowledge of how to brew beer . There are two types of licences which I have noted in this connection. There is the Bantu beer licence and a Bantu beer brewer's licence . Suppose I have five hotels and when I try to get a licence to brew for my own use , with the idea of supplying all my hotels with Bantu beer, this right which is extended to the Xhosa Development It surCorporation then stands in my way.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes , that's right. THE CHIEF MINISTER : In fact , you use this chamber as a platform to attack the Republican Government. MR . RAJUILI : Do I hear some little owls there , hooting "Yes , yes " ? We want to remove that idea from the irresponsible Chief Minister of the Transkei . (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are opposed to this very Constitution . MR . RAJUILI : We are entitled to think the way we think best of any Constitution , irrespective of who is the author of that Constitution .
prises me that not a long time ago we discussed matters of this nature in this House where the Government maintained that we could have one shop near the other so that they could compete with each other . ( Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are opposed to the Constitution .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The clause says "may" .
MR. RAJUILI : In doing so , it does not necessarily mean the sinister thinking that is in the mind of the hon. the Chief Minister . (Interjections ) We shall speak our mind against and for everything.
MR. NOTA : It is this exclusive right we are opposed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am telling you this is not a new thing. The Corporation has that right in the municipalities.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But your mind is wrong . MR . RAJUILI : Fortunately, we are dealing with the responsible Government of South Africa , .. ( Interjections ) But, as as compared to this .... I say, the hon. the Chief Minister cannot be as irresponsible as he has been this morning in levelling accusations against this side of the House that are not true.
MR. NOTA: Let me put it this way: A single individual may have five trading stations or His aim is that he might have a wholemore. sale business to supply all his shops . THE CHIEF MINISTER : With private White capital ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are merely agitating against this clause. You know it is permissive .
MR . NOTA : It is for that reason that we are opposed to this exclusive right being given to the Xhosa Development Corporation , so that we may be able to brew beer to supply our different hotels. (Interjections) It is for that reason that I stand to support the hon. Chief Ndamase .
MR. RAJUILI : He uses words loosely here "agitation from abroad" -meaningless sentences. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Complete your sen-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The next speaker
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tences . You are putting the stenographer in a difficulty.
Unfortunately we have this type of Government that will grow a long beard and will still expect to be carried by the Republican Government. We shall oppose any monopoly exclusively left to any organisation even the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections ) We shall not be intimidated by the emptiness of the emptyheaded Chief Minister who has nothing to say. We are not that which he thinks we are , against the Republican Government. We are against any monopoly and that is the intention of the amendment.
MR. RAJUILI: Our feeling that we should allow White capital in the Transkei , we still say, and say in front of anybody. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have promised a certain individual.
MR. RAJUILI: We shall not allow some prowling tiger to frighten us and make us feel we should not speak our mind. We feel that in matters in which we have sufficiently developed we should be allowed to develop in our own lines.
The amendment was put and lost by 37 votes to 57, after a division as follows :NOES.
AYES.
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli. Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mfengwana Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebanya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Lewis Zinyusile Majija Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngabeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers :
1. R. Msengana 2. K.G. Nota
Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu TELLERS :
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1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase to move his second amendment. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that between the words "Board" and "declare " the following words be inserted :-
member has drawn a comparison between these laws when he refers on the one hand to the Bantu Beer Act, and on the other to the Bill now before the House . All the towns in the Transkei are still under the Republican Government and according to the Bantu Beer Act they have a right to establish their breweries . (interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
"after reference to the advisory board or boards referred to in section twenty-one of the Natives (Urban Areas) Consolidation Act, 1945, (Act No. 25 of 1945) and to the Bantu Urban Council or councils referred to in section two of the Urban Bantu Councils Act No. 79 of 1961. " Mr. Chairman, beer is our own brew and where a law is made which affects the food of a people, then the people's opinion must be sought. A government representative of the people should never enact anything unless that government has sought the opinion ofthe electorate. I say this because the liquor laws of the Republic (Act No. 63 of 1962) sub- section 6 (1) reads as follows :- " The Minister may upon the request of the local authority for every urban area, after reference to the Native Advisory Board or boards referred to in section 21 of the Natives (Urban Areas) Consolidation Act of 1945 ...." To put side by side with it the Bill before us , our Minister will, without reference to anybody, give this authority.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Accordingly, the Xhosa Development Corporation at the present moment is acting as an agent for the towns in the Transkei , and if it is going to spend about R2 million in establishing this brewery at Butterworth, and a similar amount in Umtata, it takes that step with the approval of those areas and when eventually we take over these towns we shall find these breweries established. MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been discussing clause 118 . Two things come out of it - namely, that the Xhosa Development Corporation replaces the municipality, and previously the BIC replaced the shop-owners .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Discuss the amendment. MR. BUSAKWE : This makes it clear that there was an ulterior motive that you will not make the Xhosa Development Corporation replace the municipality. We know exactly how the brewing of beer in the municipal areas has been going on for a long time . People have for a long time struggled over this brewing of beer.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Upon the recommendation of the Board . CHIEF NDAMASE : Upon the recommendation of the Liquor Board , the membership of which is only three and definitely the two other members will be Whites, the seconded officials ,.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , the hon. member should discuss the amendment. He is completely out of order. The amendment refers to certain words here and he is discussing the principle of the whole section. (Interjections) He will have a chance to to do that under (f) . He can bring those points under (f) .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your opposition to that? You are a multi-racialist . .and only one who CHIEF NDAMASE : · · may be an African , and that has only been promised that he will be a citizen of the Transkei . It is not in black and white.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please stick to the amendment, hon. member.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: This Act is for the citizens of the Transkei .
MR. BUSAKWE: I am referring to the amendment. There are boards mentioned here - namely, municipalities and advisory boards . For a long time in the past the Africans have opposed the brewing of beer in the towns , until the advent of the IOTT organisations which also opposed this idea. The Government arrested the municipalities because they were getting a lot of money; because beer is a source of much income. It also leads to imprisonment of people , for whoever brews beer may be imprisoned. The XDC
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am trying to put that right, because even in the Republican Government they have a liquor board and I think it is something similar to this , and possibly even better. Possibly the Minister in the Republic is a man of better understanding than our Minister. ( Laughter) However , since they are elected by the people ....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was elected by the people too.
will now employ the police to arrest you if you should brew beer without a permit. It is a pity that the people should place difficulties in their own way, and there are very many Bantu children who have been educated as a result of funds raised from beer-brewing.
.they respect the CHIEF NDAMASE : opinion of the electorate because before they act they consult that opinion. I don't know whether it is because our Cabinet is composed of traditional leaders that they are entitled to do as they wish. In plain terms , Mr. Chairman, we want the electorate to be consulted on matters like this - the people for whom we are acting in this House O so that whatever we do must be done for the people and not just what we think.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come to the point. MR. BUSAKWE : People who are widows have been able to pay their taxes with the money from beer-brewing .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you supporting that these words be inserted?
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment.
MR. BUSAKWE : I am discussing the question of beer which is before this House . The amendment relates to advisory boards which are
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy that the hon.
450.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the hon. Chief to move his third amendment.
connected with the brewing of beer , especially the brewing of Bantu beer. I am still in order. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Discuss this section.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think you can make your ruling in that since the first amendment was lost, this is a consequential amendment and it cannot in any way be discussed because it rests on the first amendment. This would be really unintelligible if this was incorporated after the first amendment was lost.
MR. BUSAKWE: It is a pity that when people ask for a permit to brew beer in order to be able to pay their taxes , the XDC will have all the beer brewers arrested . · THE CHIEF nonsense .
MINISTER : You are talking
MR. C. DIKO: What about your business committee ? Why did it allow it?
MR. BUSAKWE : If you read this Bill carefully you will see that it refers to townships and settlements and the rural areas , where you will brew the beer in Umtata and Butterworth and load it in trucks to transfer it to the rural areas. You will have your depots there to sell the beer, and that is where the trouble is. Your friends do not realise that fact. You are merely pulling them by the nose. It is a pity that we are in the state in which we are today, where you are sacrificing our beer to the Xhosa Development Corporation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It allowed it because it did not know whether the first amendment would succeed or not. If it had succeeded this would have had to be put. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I will be able to produce facts now which will convince this whole House. I hope I have laid aside the point raised by the hon. the Chief Minister.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, this side of the House does not accept this amendment because on the face of it it is unreasonWhen legislating it is not necessary to able. introduce things that can be provided for in regulations , and it is not necessary to bring such matters before the House.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just quote me the rule. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , we are here to represent the people, particularly in matters affecting their livelihood .
CHIEF NDAMASE: That is an Act which I quoted from . THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are now discussing the Transkei Liquor Bill - not a Bantu Some of the matters in the Bill Beer Act. may be provided for by way of regulations . It shows the mentality of the Opposition that when we, as lawyers , consider a Bill there should be those who come and tamper with our job in doing so. (Interjections ) Only eminent lawyers have been considering this Bill , and then after everything is done some people who get drunk day and night come into this House and disturb us. (Interjections) We know that your aini is just to interfere with this Bill because what you want is to give this country to the Whites. (Interjections ) MR.
RAJUILI: Come to the Liquor Bill.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : These words will not be inserted in this clause . You must know that in future there will be no locations in the Only decent gentlemen will live in Transkei . the Transkei and there will be no locations . You only stand for locations , but there will be no need for any advisory boards . MR. O.O. MPONDO: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I am afraid the member is off the subject and we would ask him to come to the subject under discussion. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, my discussion is of a high standard and is unintelligible to them. (Laughter) Ignorant people cannot follow anybody who has spent so many years studying law. We are legislating for the future and there will be no advisory boards , as the residents of the Transkei will be decent people living in these towns . We are legislating for the future , not for today or tomorrow. We are not prepared to accept the amendment.
The amendment was put and lost by 35 votes to 47. 451 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, I shall refer you to rule 112. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, rule 112 reads as follows : - "No new clause or amendment shall be allowed which is substantially the same as one already negatived , or which is inconsistent or in conflict with one already agreed to by the committee unless a recommittal ofthe bill has intervened . " In other words , both the amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and also (f) by the hon. Mr. Diko fall away.
OP POSITION MEMBERS : No , never. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, hon. members, the amendment by the hon. Chief Ndamase in respect of clause 118 , to insert the words "or anybody " after the word "corporation" wherever it occurs , is ruled out of order. OPPOSITION MEMBER: It is different altogether. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not. It is substantially the same as the first one , so it will fall away .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall call upon the hon. Mr. Diko to move his amendment. MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, I would like to request the hon. members of the House to know that as an independent member I follow neither the DP nor the TNIP, so what I am soing to say is unbiassed and I want the support of every member in this House . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : To which side do you give your support? MR. DIKO: Now, we have an amendment in this House that clause 118 be completely deleted.
May I ask the hon. the Minister of Justice when he replies , to kindly explain what he means when he says the urban areas in the Transkei do not fall under your jurisdiction but under the direction of the Republic . You say you are making this Bill to be the law of the Transkei , so why do you include what falls under the Republican Government in the law you are making for the Transkei ? I wish you would note that this is a Transkeian Bill and the towns you are seeking to give permission do not fall under your jurisdiction, so you cannot legislate for people you have no jurisdiction over and grant them that permission. I wish members would take note of that. Fortunately, I have pamphlets which Mr. Venter has sent to me and I can speak with authority on BIC and Xhosa Development Corporation. Now the hon. the Minister of the Interior must kindly note •
raw material for making this thing; they have got the skill; and I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of Education is not here because he made a remark which I regard as unfortunate and silly . He says we are not hygienic in making beer because our women put their arms You know, where igin up to their armpits. norance is bliss , 'tis folly to be wise . I was in Johannesburg once and saw how they make the dough. The men who made the dough go naked , and sweat and spit and sneeze on this dough. (Laughter and interjections) No, before it gets to machinery it is hand-made , so it is no good talking about hygiene when you are talking about this . It is a national drink and there are people who are ready to apply to have breweries . So we sincerely and respectfully request the Government to see reason where there is reason. Now, I want to educate my learned friends , if they are not educated. The hon. the Chief Minister is in the habit of ever labelling the Opposition as being communistically influenced . I wish the hon. the Minister of Justice , when he replies , would answer this point. In so far as high politics (if you know high politics ) are concerned, no State undertakes to run industries , except in Russia. What it does is to subsidize private individuals in their industrial undertakings . Now I am challenging you now. In Russia, in England and America where have you ever seen a Government taking up a brewery? (Laughter) Another point which has been said by the hon. member, particularly the hon. the Chief Minister has said we are concerned with introducing White capital into the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Discuss the Liquor Bill. MR. DIKO: Yes, I am on it. The XDC and BIC are one and the same thing. They are both working as agents for the Bantu Trust and the House must know that the Bantu Trust was created in 1936 by General Smuts for one purpose - to buy land for the Africans . THE CHIEF MINISTER : General Hertzog , not Smuts . MR. DIKO : So when the Nationalists took over they wanted to change that and use the money to assist Africans to be able to buy property and establish industries . Quoting from Mr. Venter's letter , he says : " This Corporation is operated on a non-profit basis . " Now, here are the aims of the Xhosa Development Corporation: ( 1) To provide the capital or means , technical and other assistance , the furnishing of expert and specialized advice , information and guidance to the Africans. (2) The encouragement and extension of existing industries financially, and other undertakings. " Now , I quote further from this pamphlet. All I want to show this House is that this proviso is not necessary and it is really out of step . Now, listen to this very important statement : " Establishment of Commercial and Industrial Enterprises by the Xhosa Development Corporation. It will only establish industries and commercial enterprises if no private initiative were available or were unwilling to do so . " I wish the hon. Minister would get this pamphlet from Mr. Venter. This is " The Role of the Bantu Investment Corporation of South Africa" . So the Xhosa Development Corporation cannot take up the initiative of establishing an industry unless there is no personnel available for that particular industry.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Exactly. MR . DIKO: Now tell me , hon. Minister , here are ten members of the Xhosa Development or BIC, and they are all Whites , so this is just White capital . THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are employed by the Government.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on clause 118 of the Transkei Liquor Law Bill was resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall ask for the seconder to that amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . MR. W.M. MADIKIZELA : I second it, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is there such a personnel now?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I had decided not to take part in this debate because yesterday I spoke on this Bill at great length and I do not want to repeat myself. However , the hon. member has been molesting me even outside the House , asking for my attention in the same way as a youth molests a young damsel (Laughter) and there are bubbles which must be pricked . First of all , the hon. member mentions a certain Bantu who has been continually asking for the permission of the Municipality to open a business . I think the hon. member's ears are defective , because we have repeatedly told the members of this House that according to Act No. 63 of 1962 , the Bantu Beer Act, only the Municipalities have the right to brew Bantu beer. I have already told you that the Xhosa Development Corporation is a mere
MR . DIKO: That is what I want to tell you. Now, ever since 1961 the town council of Umtata has had application after application by a certain person in the Umtata area to be given permission to brew beer in Umtata , and the unfortunate reply of the council anticipated this Bill and said : " No , that will be given to the Xhosa Development Corporation only. " If you want those letters I will show you. I have got the correspondence . Now, what I want to know is, if you are sincere in saying you are a Government which likes to promote the development of Africans in the Transkei , why go and meddle with the luxury of the people ? After all , beer-making is a luxury . The African people have got the 452.
agent for these towns. No restriction is placed on anyone to sell Bantu beer if he has permission to do so from the local authority concerned , but then such person must buy beer from the Xhosa Development Corporation. (Interjections)
will certainly not be in keeping with justice if the chiefs here legislate that the people should be deprived of brewing and selling their own liquor in their own areas. We object to the brewing of Bantu liquor in the municipal areas which has to be carted from there into the rural areas of the Reserves . We are not concerned about the laws and regulations promulgated by the Republican Government. All we are worried about is that this Parliament should have jurisdiction over the areas which they are supposed to govern. This will lead to a position which appertained when we were not allowed to purchase European liquor in the past. Whoever was found brewing Bantu beer would have been arrested. There is no compulsion on this Parliament to make laws which are likely to be oppressive to the Bantu people. It is sufficient that in the urban or municipal areas things appertaining to those areas must be carried out, and likewise with the Reserves . We have been trying to get rights in the municipal areas and we are constantly being told that those areas belong to the Republican Government. Now we are asked to promulgate a lawproviding for the brewing of beer in areas that do not belong to us. We ask the hon Minister not to pass laws for areas that do not belong to us . This clause must therefore be deleted . Furthermore , we have tribal customs which apply in our different areas and one of the customs is that which has made it possible for the chiefs to be in this Parliament. Today we are advised to take the customs of the European people to our people. (Interjections ) We advocate that in the Reserves beer must be brewed and sold according to the custom of the people , for by this Bill we deprive the people of their rights. Further, they have imprisonment. ( Interjections ) You have some knowledge otherwise you would not be the leader of this Parliament. In the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Once more there is a bubble I must prick. The hon. member says he knows of no Government either in England Russia or elsewhere . . .... MR. DIKO: I said only in Russia. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : • · .where a Government takes part in trade . He forgets that in this country there is another corporation on exactly the same lines as this Xhosa Development Corporation, which was established as a result of the passing of an Act of Parliament. I refer to the Industrial Development Corporation which encourages many businesses in this country. MR. DIKO: Does it subsidize or does it take up industry itself?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It encourages the development of industry. MR. C.S. MDA : Does it encroach upon the individual initiative of the people ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is all I wish to say, Mr. Chairman. You may continue barking. MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members · •
reserves , beer was always brewed and drunk by the people. The people have been selling beer and have at no time in the past been arrested for doing so. It is only in the urban areas that people are arrested for doing so.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am giving a chance to your seconder now. MR. DIKO: I am taking my second chance . has offered me his chance.
He
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the insertion of this clause was
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is no such thing, Mr. Chairman. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : He can speak three times . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am giving the chance to the seconder now. MR . W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment. According to this section the Minister is given authority to give licences for the brewing and sale of liquor in the townships , urban areas , close settlements and rural townships . All these areas are under the Republican Government and they are administered by the Republican Government. This is a Parliament of chiefs who are the heads of tribal and community authorities , people who are separated entirely from the bodies mentioned in this clause . We have referred to European liquor and now we are discussing Bantu beer which it is purported should be brewed in a municipal area. This Parliament has authority to grant permission for beer to be brewed and sold in the rural areas . Reference has also been made to some licences which have been issued in the urban areas - issued under the Republican law, and that is in order. Here it is not possible for us to refer to those areas which are not yet handed over to us. The liquor that is being discussed here is the liquor which can be brewed and which is made by the Bantu people only. It
thoroughly considered by the Government and was subsequently considered thoroughly by the Government side of this House . As I have said, there is already in the Government Gazette a notice that the Xhosa Development Corporation will have these breweries in any town in the Transkei. This clause is an enabling clause , when the towns are transferred to the Transkei Government. (Interjections) There will be a time when the towns of the Transkei will be under the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. We cannot help Doubting Thomases who told the people that there would never be zoning oftowns and the towns were in fact zoned. (Interjections) MR. DIKO: Will this Corporation establish this brewery? Whytherefore come to that stage .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am telling you that when we frame legislation we do it for the future . (Interjections) MR. MDA: You want us to sign a blank cheque for you. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We don't want to introduce amending legislation all the time . In any event, this clause does not mean to say that in all the towns of the Transkei the Corporation will have breweries established . (Interjections)
453.
MR. DIKO: You should not allow it in any.
is not imperative and, as I say, in all legislation the legislature looks to the future.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It does not mean to say no African concern will be allowed to establish a brewery in any town in the future when The they have got the money. (Interjections ) position is that you are only submitting hypothetical cases . Every time it is a question of "Suppose an African wantsto open upan industry. " You have suddenly turned out to be protagonists of African Nationalism . (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question. MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman . .. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No , I am allowing no more discussion. MR . DIKO : This is not Germany. This is the Transkei and we want freedom of expression.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What we want is practical politics in the Transkei. We want to bring money into the Transkei in such a way that the rights of Transkei citizens will not be adversely affected. The Xhosa Development Corporation is a Government concern established solely to stimulate industrial and economic development in the Transkei . As soon as the African people come together into companies they can purchase the brewery which has been initiated by the Xhosa Development Corporation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are insulting the Chairman. MR. DIKO: We are supposed to see to the interests of the people we represent , and we shall continue to do so. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Sit down . (General uproar ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon . I am now putting the member sit down. question.
MR. MDA: Will that ever happen? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. member He will see it says that will never happen. happen. Hon. gentlemen, stop coming to this House having on your backs private White people who want to come and enjoy the fruits of the Transkei.
Messrs . chamber .
S.M.
Sinaba and C. Diko left the
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Division! for a division.
We call
During Division
MR. DIKO: What is it at your back?
MR. B. S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I wish to find out whether , according to the rules of procedure during a division we may either enter or go out. (Interjections) Now, what happens if some person comes in or goes out? I want to make this observation - a member of the Government side walked out a few minutes ago . (Interjections) We would like to know how that affects the voting when a person deliberately abrogates the laws of the House .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Republican Government is assisting the Transkei citizens to stand on their feet with honesty. We shall not allow anything that will interfere with the progressive application of the Transkei Constitution. We shall not allow any private persons who are not Transkei citizens to come and establish industry here. If we do so we shall do so in consultation with the Republican Government and on a high level . (Interjections ) But I want to point out that this clause has been thoroughly considered by legally qualified people .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , in the event of such an occurrence I am bound to nullify the whole vote and we shall start again.
MR . MDA : So that the whole talk about selfdetermination is just thin air ?
The amendment was lost by 36 votes to 57 after a division as follows : -
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The whole thing is just permissive . The word "may" , if you look it up in your dictionary, is just permissive . It AYES .
NOES.
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngabeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief M. Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr.Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau 454.
Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Faramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu
Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Chief Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Hornabrook Tamsanqa Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K. G. Nota 2. R.B. Msengana
Tellers :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as a matter of urgency I move that rule 63 be suspended to enable this House to sit up to 6 o'clock and then adjourn and again sit from 7 o'clock onwards. THE
MINISTER
OF
1. C.S. Mda 2. J. Ntola.
think I have specified the times and that in itself is sufficient to show that it refers to 63 (a) . I have specified that we sit up to 6 o'clock to-night and then from 7 o'clock onwards . MR. GUZANA: I have drawn the attention of the Chairman to the proviso, Sir.
JUSTICE : I second.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: I would like a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Chief Minister has asked that rule 63 be waived. Now, you would waive all the provisions of that rule if it is sought that it be waived, even the proviso under rule 63. The proviso seeks that the Chairman shall, in his discretion and after consultation with the Minister in charge of the measure under discussion, suspend the business of the Assembly, etc. Now, I do not know if the Chairman has consulted with the Minister in charge of the measure ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , actually the hon. the Minister of Justice had a talk with me on this matter, and I did say if it is moved here it will be all right, if it is agreed to by the House. The motion was carried by 52 votes to 33. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, hon. members of the House , as the result of a majority vote that we must sit late hours , willthe allowance increase accordingly for that time ? (Laughter)
Clause 118 put and agreed to by 52 votes to 35 after a division as follows : -
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I
NOES.
AYES.
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomica Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief M. Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe
Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila
455.
Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahla Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu
Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Joel Ndabankulu Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers :
1. R.B. Msengana 2. K.G. Nota
1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda.
Tellers :
On Clause 119 nothing to stop anyone from making and drinking his own beer. This clause merely refers to inviting other people to come to your kraal .
MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this section it is stated that no one can hold a beer drink without first consulting the chief. Provision has been made that in section 118 the beer must be obtained from the Xhosa Development Corporation. Nothing is said about the brewing of beer.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : Is that a point of order ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , I am just explaining to him because he does not understand the clause .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Read the clause properly .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Carry on. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Look up clause 122 .
MR. MADIKIZELA: It says no person shall in any administrative area hold a beer drink . •
MR. MADIKIZELA: I am not amending clause 122. That is why I am talking about beer drinking . Nothing is said about beer brewing. The Bantu people have been brewing liquor for years and years , and today new legislation is being brought that they should stop brewing beer. Why? No reasons have been given as to how and why. All that is done is to make arrangements for the Corporation to brew beer. What shall this now be called ? If it is suggested that no provision has been made for any Bantu to ask permission from his chief to brew beer, it will be difficult for me now to invent new words or clauses for what is embodied in this Bill. That is why I am appealing to the hon. members to consider this Bill and see what changes can be effected . I am not talking about permission to brew in the towns , because it has already been granted, but it would be very unfair to interfere with the peace of the people in the rural areas. There will be no peace between the brewer and the buyers . I move accordingly .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , " hold a beer drink", not brew beer. MR. MADIKIZELA: To hold a beer drink is concerned with brewing beer. It says nothing It is clear that anyone about drinking beer. who brews beer in the rural areas and whoever is holding a beer drink is supposed to inform the That is why I have brought chief of the area. this amendment to the effect that between the words "area" and " or" the following words should be inserted :
"if there is reason to believe that there may be a fight or any riot in such beer drink" . It should trouble that not for this cannot enjoy
only be if there is suspicion of any permission should be asked. It is Government to say that the people themselves .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. member is confused. There is
MR. L.T. MAZWI : I second . 456.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I don't think we on this side of the House will waste our time on this tripe . The holding of beer drinks from time immemorial has been restricted to the extent that the permission of the chief and headman should be sought. There is nothing new about it. If you turn to section 122 it says that nothing in this Act contained shall be construed as prohibiting the head of any household in an administrative area from brewing and possessing Bantu beer in reasonable quantities , etc. So you are either confused in your mind or you want to confuse other people who are here. The chiefs and headmen have got to be first of all requested before any beer drink is held. That has taken place all the time and it is nothing new, except that you people across the floor do not want to be under any chief or headman.
and reporting to the chiefs happens only now and again. If a person brews beer and the chief lives at Ncambele , it means that the people must go to the chief at Ncambele and ask permission , and the chief may be out of town. When will that person then be able to brew beer and drink it? If you force this Bill through you must understand that you are oppressing and suppressing the people. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. MAZWI : We in Fingoland do not know this practice and we shall never accept such legislation. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The law is there. MR. MAZWI: If you force this Bill through you must know that you have tied a rope round our necks .
MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Chief Minister said something we cannot understand, and I believe he is himself now confused, because he has been trying to give an answer to the whole debate. Even in matters on which he is ignorant he pretends to know, and he tries to make fools of us on this side of the House .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You don't know the law. MR. MAZWI : I want to say it is not true that when anyone has a beer drink he has to first ask However , you are a permission of the chief. government of chiefs and you are trying to make yet another way of making people pay, for you know that each time a person comes to ask for permission he must pay something to the chief. By this means you are trying .... ( Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And you are really fools. MR. MAZWI : And I think he will be the leader of these fools. Here we are dealing with an amendment which states that if there is reason to fear that there might be disturbances , only in such circumstances need the person go and seek the authority of the chief. He maintains that this has been the practice all the time and it is not true. People have been drinking beer always ,
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have no reason to insult the chiefs. The amendment was put and lost by 27 votes to 42 after a division as follows :-
NOES.
AYES.
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief M. Matanzima Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngabeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Tellers :
457.
1. R.B. Msengana 2. H.H.T.N. Bubu
Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers :
1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda
Clause 119 put and agreed to by 43 votes to 27.
another become fools , and a fool will likewise be a fool until at some time he becomes a wise man . I noticed at one time when it was
On Clause 120
suggested that their stipends should be raised , they said they were quite satisfied; and when it was suggested to them that money be paid to their people , they said " No " . When it was suggested that the people be allowed to seek work, they said " No" .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment that the words "headman or chief and" be inserted between the words "the" and "magistrate " in clause 120 (1) . I take it that the magistrate ought to consult with the headman or chief in doing anything in the Reserves . It is stipulated here that the magistrate may prohibit the making of beer in the rural areas . I do not know that the magistrate would be in a position to say what trouble is brewing in a location unless he has been previously informed by the headman or chief. The chiefs , being keen to maintain peace and order , may in certain locations prohibit the brewing of beer when there has been a recent disturbance by the youth of the area. I don't imply that there are no chiefs or headmen who may misuse power bestowed upon them , and if there is any such chief the magistrate likewise may misuse his authority, for chiefs and headmen and magistrates are all human. The aim of the amendment is merely to ensure that there is consultation so that the magistrate will not have the sole authority to prohibit the brewing of beer.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member must come back to the Bill THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , you must speak to the amendment. MR . SASA : Now, let us come to this Parliament, because I have noted that Zambezi Parliament was composed of fools. Here we are under the jurisdiction of chiefs and even though it may appear that I am opposed to the chiefs , whenever there is a difficulty I go to the chief. Why are they now being deprived of their authority , so that the magistrate will have all the authority in his hands ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , no wonder the last speaker is lost. The mover of the amendment presented a distorted version of this section. The section says that whenever any riotous conduct , fight or other disturbance . ...
MR . A.G. SASA: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in administration the head of the district is the magistrate , and it is desirable that he should consult with chiefs and headmen who happen to be under him, but it would only lead to confusion if different chiefs and headmen wanted different things , and therefore in all administration it is the magistrate who may decide on consultation . I think there are channels by which reports of magistrates not consulting those under him could be brought to the appropriate authorities .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : We know what the clause says .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You did not read that clause . Whenever any riotous conduct, fight or other disturbance has occurred or is expected to occur at any place then the section gives these powers to the magistrate . CHIEF NDAMASE : Why not to the chief?
MR . SASA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very happy that we are discussing a question of custom , and I am quite aware that the person who proposes this Bill has evidently not consulted with the hon. the Chief Minister who , I know, knows the customs of the Bantu people. It is maintained that this Assembly shall follow the customs of the people . According to custom we often start what we want to do with the sub- headman. The headman will not take upon himself the duties of a sub- headman. From the headman we proceed to the chief, and from him to the magistrate . Why must the magisɩrate today take upon himself all the power that belongs to these different authorities ? At one time I visited Zambezi and I went to the non- European Parliament which was in session . There were three parties in that Parliament the Government Party , the Democratic Party and the Freedom Party. When I looked at the Government Party I found big-bellied men. (Laughter ) I did not notice that when the people were being suppressed they also suppressed their people. I think you are aware that the people who have wisdom will some time or 458 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to put it to you that the magistrate is the licensing authority in this very Bill. CHIEF
NDAMASE :
Not in this
chapter .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He will get the report that there is riotous conduct , fight or disturbance from the headman or chief of the administrative area. This section does not remove the powers of the chiefs at all , but it is the magistrate who should stop the riotous behaviour . CHIEF NDAMASE : If the magistrate disregards the chief or headman , what happens ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am trying to explain that he should have received the information from the chief or headman. In other words , when the chief or headman goes to the magistrate to report this , there will be consultation between them , naturally. In any event, in all legislation it ipso facto follows that there will be regulations framed by the Government . (Interjections) You cannot put matters which would be incorporated in the regulations in the Act .
MR. C. DIKO: Why not include the chief or headman? THE CHIEF MINISTER: We don't find it necessary to amend this section at all. The amendment was put and lost by 36 votes to 51 after a division as follows :AYES.
NOES.
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Mfengwana Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Tellers : 1. J. Ntola Mr. Zebulon Chemane 2. C.S. Mda. Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngabeki Nomtsheketshe Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment to clause 120 (2) , to insert the words "with the approval of the tribal authority in the jurisdiction of which the homestead or premises is " between the words "magistrate" and " shall". The object is that there shall be consultation and understanding between the magistrate and the tribal authority, for I maintain that whatever takes place in the region under the jurisdiction of the tribal authority should be reported to that tribal authority. In the past, before the advent of Bantu authorities , if anything took place in an area the magistrate consulted with the local authorities on that point, and I think any Government which tries to bring about understanding between the different authorities would certainly not approve of a thing of
this nature , where an individual can act on his own without consultation. Even though the Chief Minister has stated that some of these things will be included in the regulations , we nevertheless feel that this amendment must stand . In any case , the regulations have not got the force of the Act and that is why we would rather have this inserted .
Tellers :
459.
1. K.G. Nota 2. R.B. Msengana
MR. Z.W. LUFEFENI : I second the amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I regret to say that the hon. member's amendment is ridiculous and unintelligible . The amendment in sub- section 120 (2) is consequential on subsection (1 ) , of which we have just disposed . We
have just decided that the magistrate will prohibit any brewing whenever there is any riotous conduct, fight or disturbance. We have disposed of that. Now, in sub- section ( 2 ) , it merely says
magistrate approves THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , we have disposed of that amendment.
that the magistrate will post this prohibition in a conspicuous place at his office . Now, it is ridiculous to say the magistrate must call a tribal authority meeting to post a notice at his office . There are so many notices posted in the magistrate's office , it would be ridiculous for the tribal authority to be called to be consulted about these notices . The notice will be posted because of sub- section (1 ) which we have just finished now.
MR. LUFEFENI : No notice will be put up unless the headman and chief have knowledge of it. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You are off the point, hon. member.
MR.LUFEFENI : I hope you will not pay any attention to what the hon. the Chief Minister said , because he is misleading the chiefs on the other side . Nothing should go on in the Reserves unless it comes through the headman and chief.
MR. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , you maintain that this amendment will just be ridiculous when you have said that these things must take place after consultation with the headman and chief. How will it be ridiculous ? The magistrate lives in the urban area and he is not acquainted with what takes place in the Reserve .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall put the amendment . OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Division !
During Division
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that has nothing to do with the posting of a notice . The member must come to the point .
MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman , one of the members has just come in. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Nobody should come in once the doors are closed . We shall have to start afresh.
MR. LUFEFENI : This is just the same thing that we have been discussing. There should not be a notice posted without the headman and chief being notified by the magistrate . Whatever the
The amendment was lost by 50 votes to 33 after a division as follows : -
AYES .
NOES .
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shdrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr.
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Mfengwana Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlalala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela
Walter Candulwandle Singata Gordon Dana Cromwell Diko Mkatali Walter Madikizela Sizakele Caledon Mda Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers :
1. R.B. Msengana 2. K.G. Nota
460 .
Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu
Tellers:
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , there is a third amendment under this section ...
1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda
if they see any tins they puncture them and in that way spill out all the liquor. It is for that reason that we will not support the police carrying out such actions. By this section you give authority for the Xhosa Development Corporation to have the police carry out duties as I have said.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, this amendment is consequential upon the amendment we have just disposed of and interms of rule 112 it falls away .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , there is nothing here about that, Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I was going to draw the attention of the House to that fact, so the amendment falls away.
MR. BUSAKWE: I am talking about containers which may have beer in them and which may be destroyed in this manner. I don't know how the hon. the Chief Minister understands this amendment. He is constantly telling us that he took twelve years of study. I don't know what it was he was studying if he cannot follow and understand this. We are talking about tins and tubs which contain beer.
Clause 120 put and agreed to. On Clause 121 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I accept the amendment to this clause. Clause 121 as amended put and agreed to.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that my hon. friend does not understand this . It is only on the order of the court that what he says can be done .
On Clause 122 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, clause 122 is a savings clause in regard to brewing for own consumption and other matters.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please stick to the amendment, hon. member.
Clause 122 put and agreed to. Clauses
MR. BUSAKWE: It is stated here that the exhibit will not be destroyed . If the beer is in a bottle the bottle will be placed there and the remainder will have been spilt by the police , and the tubs and drums destroyed. Why bring in this objectionable thing to our people ?
123 and 124 put and agreed to.
On Clause 125 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have an amendment to this section which is on the order paper . Imove that the clause be adopted as amended .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the hon. Minister anything to say?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Nothing. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall put the amendment.
MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, you will recall that yesterday I asked the hon. Minister concerned to state clearly what prompted him Will he please to have this amendment. do so?
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, when we asked the hon. Minister to motivate on this amendment he said some two words . This is his amendment and there is a proviso there "provided that the court may in its discretion order any such liquor or thing to be destroyed" . What is this thing?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the drafting ofthe Bill this was inadvertently omitted. That is all.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Turn to clause 63. You will find it there.
MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman, this amendment to sub-section (2) by the hon. Minister reminds us of the police who hunt for beer in the Bantu locations. When they see a tub they puncture a hole in it and destroy it. Similarly,
The amendment was put and carried by 47 votes to 33 after a division as follows :-
NOES.
AYES.
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. S. Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief G.M. Mabandla
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa
461 .
Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief M. Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Paramoung Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau
Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota
Tellers : 1. R.B. Msengana 2. K.G. Nota .
Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. P. Sobahle Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu . Tellers : 1. J. Ntola. 2. C.S. Mda . The question was put and Clause 125 as amended agreed to by 47 votes to 33 , after a division as follows :AYES .
NOES . Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Stanford Bacela Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief G.M. Mabandla Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. R. Madikizela Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Walter Mkatali Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda
Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief D. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief M. Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Chief Ferguson Gwadiso 462.
Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota
Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Acting Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. P. Sobahle Chief Morris Msingapantsi Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers :
1. 2.
Tellers : 1. M.J. Dumalisile 2. R.B. Msengana .
K.G. Nota J. Ntola
The debate was adjourned .
That is why I asked the question.
EVENING SESSION
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We cannot generalize . This section merely refers to formal defects which are provided for in the Act. You see, as the section reads , the validity of any certificate or authority issued by the licensing authority under any provision of this Act for the grant, renewal , transfer or removal of a licence , or any licence issued , renewed , transferred or removed by virtue of any such certificate or authority, shall not be affected by reason merely of the fact that any notice required to be published or posted in terms of this Act was not duly published or posted.
The Assembly resumed at 7.15 p.m. The debate on the Transkei Liquor Law Bill was resumed.
Clauses 126 to 128 put and agreed to. On Clause 129 MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , one would like to know what people are contemplated as " duly accredited to the Republic" . Do these include consuls and diplomats ?
MR . GUZANA: Yes , which means to suggest that any other formal defect will affect the validity because you have specifically mentioned these .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes . MR . C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman, it has not been conveyed to the Assembly in the language they understand. There has been no interpretation .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have actually specified and it refers to the publishing and posting.
Clause 129 put and agreed to. On Clause 130
MR. GUZANA : Yes , but if there is another defect will it affect the validity of the licence ?
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , in reading that section, reference is made to a failure to publish a notice or to post a notice in terms of this Act, or of the regulations thereunder. Do I read into this section that those are the only failures which will not vitiate the validity of a licence , and none other , in view of the fact that One they are specifically mentioned here ? takes it that there will be no other failures ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It depends on the circumstances of each case. Clause 130 put and agreed to. Clause 131 put and agreed to. On Clause 132
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this refers to formal defects for which the licence -holder is not responsible , and the provisions which should have been complied with by the person responsible for the observance of those provisions . The section protects the licence-holders .
MR . W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what is meant by this.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Read your Bill , page 43 . MR . R. MADIKIZELA : Will the hon. Minister motivate ?
MR . GUZANA: Yes , but I thought where any particular act has not been performed , the validity would not be vitiated by the failure of those specifically mentioned. Why I asked was that if any specific act is mentioned in this section, and that act is not performed, then the validity of the licence is not affected ; but any other formal act which is not mentioned in the section , I took it that it would vitiate the validity of the licence , because no general term or phrase is used to cover all formal defects but a specific formal defect has been particularized . I would understand if it were "such as " , but here certain failures only have been mentioned and we cannot generalize when certain defects are mentioned.
MR . GUZANA: This is an unusual clause in a Bill where a section in the bill actually takes a schedule and says it shall be read as one with the Act, as a schedule is supplementary to the Act and I think that is why the hon. member is asking for clarification as to why that is being done. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The schedule has provisions here which should be read as part of the Act.
Clause 132 put and agreed to. Clauses
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133 and 134 put and agreed to.
MR. RAJUILI : It is a matter for this Assembly as it is found in the Constitution. The business committee cannot override the Constitution .
On Schedule 1 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment to Schedule 1 by the Minister .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday , 22nd June , 1967 .
MR . GUZANA: Now what are you going to do? We have already passed that Schedule 1 should be read with the Act.
THURSDAY, 22ND JUNE , 1967
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Minister gave notice of the amendment.
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read.
MR. GUZANA : Yes , but the point is that he has moved the Schedule as part of the Bill .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: As amended . MR . GUZANA : No , he did not. He said : "Section 132 - I move that it be adopted " .
ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just wish to announce that this morning after the third reading of the Transkei Liquor Bill I will move the adjournment of this Assembly, but before doing so I will request your indulgence to allow me to say a few words to the members of this House .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : As amended . MR. GUZANA: No, he did not. It was seconded and adopted . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It was an omission.
TRANSKEI LIQUOR BILL : THIRD READING
MR. GUZANA: If it was an omission he must ask the House for leave to do it. You can't just gloss over it like that.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the passing of the third reading of this Bill, I wish to apologise to the House for the non-appearance of the Afrikaans and Xhosa versions of the Bill , and that we waive that rule which demands the presence of these translations - that is, rule 98 of our regulations.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for drawing my attention to this omission and I ask leave of the House to insert those words in the Schedule , so that the schedule is passed as amended that is, under item 10 (c) to insert " Under this licence the licence-holder may" , after the words "yearly fee" .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond, Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE : Isecond, Mr. Chairman.
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, what would be the justifiable reasons for this apology by the hon. the Minister of Justice and his requesting the waiving of certain rules ? What is the reason for the official languages to be treated so lightly?
Part I of Schedule 1 put and agreed to, as amended. Part II of Schedule 1 , and Schedule 2 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, the Bill was tabled in all the three official languages, but owing to the time factor we have not been able to supply all the members with the Bill in the three languages .
The long title and the whole Bill as amended put and agreed to.
House Resumed
Agreed to.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I stand up to report that the Bill before the House has been accepted with certain amendments .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Liquor Bill as amended be now read a third time.
THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the third reading?
CHIEF J. DUMALISILE : I second .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Tomorrow, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. 'The Bill was read a third time .
MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, there is one thing we have been noticing and we hope tomorrow that omission will be corrected. It is by the Constitution Act of the Transkei that whatever business is done in this House , particularly appertaining to bills , shall be done in the three official languages . This is about the fourth bill that has come to us , so if tomorrow we cannot get the official languages for this third reading the Government must be on the look- out.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE ASSEMBLY THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I stand up , Sir, to express the appreciation of the Cabinet to the members of the House for the manner in which they have discharged their duties during the two months of the session of this Assembly. I am sure that everybody will agree with me that, with the exception of a few ragamuffins , the members of this House have upheld the dignity of this House to such an extent that they can be compared to any other Parliament in the world .
THE CHAIRMAN: That is a matter for the business committee .
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tion to the members of this House for their diligence and devotion to duty whilst Parliament was in session. When he made mention of ragamuffins I looked closely at the members of the Government side , and I did not have to look very far. (Laughter) But it must be conceded that every Government and every Opposition let me say every Legislative Assembly must have its gadfly which constantly swings around in front of the members . If we were to be sombre men in this House then I think we would go back to our homes looking more ugly than when we came here. May I, on behalf of Paramount Chief Victor Poto, thank the Chief Minister for the compliment he has paid to him. I must say, when I stepped into his shoes I felt that they were too big for me, but I must say that he has tried to make that chair as comfortable as possible for me by giving me assistance , advice and counsel at all times . The hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that the Opposition has accepted the Transkei Constitution. May I say that the Opposition accepts the Transkei Constitution as a cabinet-maker accepts a piece of wood , with all its bark and branches on it, and they feel that they are the people to decide what furniture to make out of this unhewn and unplaned piece of wood. You have seen how vigorously the Opposition has applied itself to the job to prune offunwanted branches and twigs, and it is their intention to make a piece of furniture either in its entirety or as part of a complete suite which includes South Africa. We accept the fact that the Transkei must begin with its agriculture as the basis of its economy.
MEMBERS : Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I wish in particular to express in no uncertain terms the appreciation of the Cabinet to the Leader of the Opposition for the manner in which he has been an example to the members of his party in all the ramifications of the debates in this chamber. It could not be otherwise , because he stepped into the shoes of a highly respected personality who was his predecessor in office , the ex- Leader of the Opposition, the honourable Paramount Chief Victor Poto. The Government is particularly happy that the Opposition has signified its acceptance of the Transkei Constitution and it is our hope that in future we shall be able to work together, although differing in certain minor aspects Constitution, • of o
M. C. DIKO: Major aspects "minor ". (Laughter)
don't say
.for the common THE CHIEF MINISTER : • good of the Transkei citizens . We shall leave the judgment against the ragamuffins to the electorate in the no far distant future . Mr. Chairman, I wish to appeal to the members of this House to regard agriculture as the mainstay of our industry and the backbone of the Transkei economy, and request them to go out to the country and instil in the minds of the ordinary farmer the necessity for progressive farming methods . Rehabilitation is a sine qua non in the agricultural development of any country, and any person who does not appreciate the necessity for agricultural development does not deserve the position of being called a leader of his people . True leaders should interest themselves in the economic development of their people and I am sure you agree with me when I say that agriculture is the backbone of the Transkei . Sir, I wish to express the appreciation of the Government to you and to the Deputy Chairman for the manner in which you have conducted the business of this House. Although at times you clamped down on the members of the Cabinet, we felt that you were doing your duty. We have not got sufficient words to express our thanks and appreciation to the stenographer, Mrs. Muggleston. Last night when we had a night sitting, whispering went round the members , expressing their sympathy for the lady who remained with us at a time when she should be doing her domestic duties . Finally, Sir, we thank the Transkeian Government officials as a whole for the assistance they have rendered to the Government and the officials of this chamber. I would suggest to members that they take a trip to Cape Town and study how Parliament there is run. The Secretary to the Chief Minister is the head of all the officials in this House and has got to give assistance in how the business of the House is to be run. He has got to assist the Secretary of the House in all business . The secretaries of the departments in any parliament are the people who have got to assist the cabinet and I am pleased to say that the Secretaries of the Transkeian Government have discharged their duties in the most appreciable manner. Lastly, but not least, our highest appreciation goes to the interpreters. I think they are the people who have the most arduous duty to perform in this House . Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Hear , hear. MR . GUZANA : It is unfortunate that the Cabinet sought to place a particular individual at the head of that important department. ( Laughter) We feel that agricultural policy must be a flexible one , adjustable to changing conditions and circumstances , changing reactions from the people, and that we cannot go faster than the people we wish to lead in this direction. In my own view I would like this House to consider sending some of the agriculturists from the Transkei to countries like Israel where , out of the barren desert, they have been able to extract fertility. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They will come back minus their shoes . (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : Ifthey come back without their shoes , they will get back nearer to Mother Earth . May I also thank the Chairman and Deputy Chairman for discharging their duties efficiently and without bias . If we have given you cause for anxiety and trouble , and caused you to raise your temper at times , it is because we are like children who play around the father's trousers and leave smears of fat on it. I take pleasure in expressing our appreciation to Mrs. Muggleston, the stenographer, who has discharged her duties with charm and distinction . I have never seen her at any time flustered by our utterances . She has been most diligent, even to the extent of reducing to paper the worst nonsense that has been said by the Government side , (Laughter) and we are happy to say that her charming and delightful personality has been a source of inspiration to many of us in this House . I wish to say how grateful the Opposition is to Transkei officials and loaned officials who have worked diligently and efficiently behind the scenes to make this Assembly the success that it was this year. If they have shown over- enthusiasm
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members , I am happy to be associated with the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister which he has made this morning. Firstly, he expressed his apprecia-
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when they have been sitting in the bay I am facing, it is because they are , I think, concerned for the welfare of this Assembly.
when he is in the hands of the ladies at the Sir Henry Elliot Hospital ! (Laughter) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House adjourn until a date in April next year.
MR. GUZANA: I liken them to grease to a car . It must be there , but it must not be seen. If it is applied liberally on the doors , then it soils my wife's expensive coat (Laughter) and I am likely to censure the garage for that liberal application of grease. If any grease has got on to our coats because they have been here , we have been able to remove it with the benzene of tolerance . Last, but not least, may I express my appreciation also on behalf of the Opposition to the interpreters who have been very diligent in their duties . I have noticed , however, that the Government has changed the interpreters rather regularly during this session. I am not able to say what was the disqualification but I think I can safely blame the hon. the Minister of Justice , because some of them have anticipated his Bill. (Laughter) Our appreciation goes to them very sincerely . If I may be allowed to intrude a personal note , we are glad to see Paramount Chief Sabata amongst us .
P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, hon. members I am very sorry that the people I am going to help are mumbling. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I have just moved the adjournment of the House . The hon. member is out of order . MR. DIKO: I don't understand what the member said. THE CHAIRMAN : He moves the adjournment. MR. DIKO: I am objecting to that. We must discuss Motion 17 here - the raising of the Chiefs and stipends of chiefs and headmen. headmen are starving.
MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. GUZANA : A few weeks ago I announced in this House that he was not too well , and was admitted to the Sir Henry Elliot Hospital for treatment . We are happy to see him amongst us this morning - Iand who would not recover
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . I am ruling We are adjourning now. you out or order. The Assembly adjourned after singing "Nkosi Sikelel'i-Afrika and "Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Hesu" .
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TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS . Officials in attendance : Messrs J.J. Muller , Senior Auditor, representing the Controller and Auditor- General , J.H.T. Mills , K.A. Faure , Secretary and Assistant Secretary for Finance respectively, G.J. Oosthuizen, Interdepartmental Accountant and Mrs M. Muggleston, Stenographer.
RULE 147 (b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof:-
The Chairman welcomes members and officials and expressed the hope that the deliberations will be fruitful and conducted in the same cordial manner as in the past. He also expressed appreciation that arrangements had been made for the services of a stenographer.
(b) On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure . When the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee .
The committee proceeded to the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1965-66 .
ANNOUNCEMENT.
Messrs J.H.T. Mills , K.A. Faure and G.J. Oosthuizen were examined .
20th April, 1967 : That the following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts :-
The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Tuesday, 16th May at 9 a.m. Tuesday , 16th May, 1967 (at 9 a.m. )
Mr. R. Msengana (Chairman), Mr. M.H. Canca , Mr. J. M. Sineke , Mr. K.G. Nota and Mr. T.H. Bubu .
PRESENT . Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca and J.M. Sineke .
Matters referred to the Committee.
Messrs J.J. Muller, Senior Auditor and J.L. Boshoff, Secretary for Education were in attendance . The Chairman welcomed officials .
21st April, 1967 : Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Inferior Administrative Bodies in the Transkei for the financial year 1965-66 tabled . Referred to the Committee in terms of Rule 147 (b).
The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1965-66 .
REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1967.
Mr. Boshoff examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Wednesday, 17th May, at 9 a.m.
Your Committee , having considered and examined the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the inferior Administrative Bodies in the Transkei for the financial year 1965-1966 referred to it, and having taken evidence , which it submits herewith, begs to report that it has no observations to make upon them.
Wednesday ,
17th May , 1967 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT.
Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca, J.M. Sineke and K.G. Nota. Messrs J.J. Muller , Senior Auditor , J.A. Burger, Secretary for Interior (accompanied by Mr. E.J. Brigg) and G.J. Oosthuizen were in attendance .
R. Msengana. Chairman. Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, Umtata . 24th May, 1967.
The Chairman welcomed officials . The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1965-66 .
PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE . PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS , appointed in terms of Rule 147 (b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee sonsisting of Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca , J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu.
Mr. Burger examined . The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Tuesday, 23rd May, at 9 a.m. Tuesday,
23rd
May,
1967
(at 9 a.m. )
PRESENT . Friday,
12th May,
1967
(at
9 a.m. )
PRESENT .
Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman) , J.M. Sineke and K.G. Nota.
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman ) M. Canca and J.M. Sineke .
Messrs J.J. Muller , Senior Auditor and S.W. Pienaar, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry
467 .
were in attendance. The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1965 - 66. Mr. Pienaar examined . The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.30 a.m. until Wednesday, 24th May, at 9 a.m. Wednesday,
24th May,
1967 (at 9 a.m. )
PRESENT . Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca, J.M. Sineke and K.G. Nota. Messrs J.J. Muller, Senior Auditor and W.Grabe , Secretary for Roads and Works were in attendance . The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1965-66 . Mr. Grabe examined .
On the motion of Mr. K.G. Nota, Resolved : That the Chairman report the Resolution adopted by the Committee . The Committee deliberated and at 9.55 a.m. adjourned sine die. MINUTES Friday,
OF
EVIDENCE.
12th May,
1967
(at
9
a.m. )
PRESENT.
cially in so far as the third paragraph of the Constitution Act, referring to fines and forfeitures , is concerned . This amendment apparently does not cover fines and forfeitures and will have to be gone into with the legal advisers . The matter is now with them . Gifts to the Government (paragraph 15, page 5. ) 2. Chairman. ) Mr. Faure , in connection with the cash grants of R1,250 , are there any special conditions attached to these grants ? · (Mr. Faure ) Mr. Chairman , I will explain that a cheque for R1,000 was received with the compliments of a municipal council and one of its Bantu areas , and the donation was made without any conditions regarding the uses to which it should be put. The amount has accordingly been paid into the revenue fund. As regards the other R250; it is part of a donation by an oil company for the establishment of a library for the Legislative Assembly . The donation was paid in equal yearly instalments and is being used for the purpose for which it was donated.
Defective
Staff Records and Salary Sheets. (paragraph 21 , page 7. )
3. Chairman. ) Mr. Oosthuizen has any progress been made towards placing this matter on a sound footing? Have any irregular payments been made as a result of defective Staff Records? (Mr. Oosthuizen) Mr. Chairman, when the Accounts branck took over responsibility for the payment of salaries of officers on the establishment of the six Transkeian Government departments from the various Republican Government departments it was not possible to compare the accounts records with the relative staff records . Not only did the time factor make this impossible , but also the fact that the Accounts branch is dependent on the various departmental staff offices for the required information. To my mind, everything possible is being done to eliminate differences between staff and salary records and much has already been Lists containing achieved in this connection. full particulars of officials and teachers whose salaries are paid from the Accounts office have , for instance , been compiled and sent to the relative departments for comparison with their staff records . Accounting officers have also been
Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman ) , M. Canca and J.M. Sineke .
Messrs J.H.T. Mills , K.A. Faure , Secretary and Assistant Secretary for Finance respectively and Mr. G.J. Oosthuizen, Inderdepartmental Accountant were examined .
requested to do everything in their power to ensure the correctness of staff records under their control and to remain in close communication with the main accounts branch and the various district offices responsible for making salary payments . Much difficulty is , however , experienced in ascertaining the correctness of initials and the spelling of Christian names and surnames of officers and teachers . The entire matter is , however , under control and should be on a sound footing in the very near future .
Standing Statutory Appropriation (paragraph 5 ( 1 ) , page 2.) 1. Chairman . ) Mr. Mills could you please enlighten the Committee as to the present state of affairs ?- (Mr. Mills ) Yes , Mr. Chairman. You know this refers to section 52 of the Transkei Constitution Act which provides for the payment of all revenue into the Transkei Revenue Fund . As you know, it was felt that the revenue belonging to the lower authorities should be paid into the banking accounts of those lower authorities . As I indicated to the committee last year it was really dependent on the Republican Government to alter the relevant section of the Act. They did so by the insertion of certain words . The words added to the end of the sub-paragraph were : "except in so far as the Legislative AsThe revenue for sembly may determine . the lower authorities could then be diverted direct to lower authorities and not through the revenue fund . But I must add that the Controller and Auditor- General has got his doubts as to whether that section goes far enough and has taken the matter up with the legal advisers . So to sum up I can say that an amendment was brought about which rectified the matter to a certain extent but there are still doubts , espe-
With regard to the non- compliance with the provisions of Treasury Circular No. 1 of 1961 , I can report a noticeable improvement and although cases of non-compliance do still occur from time to time these are due to lack of experience . Individual cases are taken up immediately wherever they occur. No irregular payments have , as a direct result of defective staff records and salary sheets , been brought to light so far . Summary of Revenue Services , (page 10. ) 4. Chairman. ) Mr. Mills , although the Committee is aware of the fact that, whilst evidence was heard last year on the question of the large
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Another reason was that unforeseen difficulties cropped up in providing study facilities in certain specialised fields , such as agriculture , surveying, engineering, etc. Although funds had been provided, the bursaries could in the circumstances not be advertised by the Public Service Commission.
surplus to be surrendered in respect of the financial year 1964-65, the estimates for 196566 was in the act of being passed, could you perhaps enlighten the Committee as to whether , on preliminary figures available, any improvement in this respect was made for 1966-67? At the last (Mr. Mills ) Yes, Mr. Chairman. meeting we had here I indicated to the committee the difficulties we had in general . We had no previous estimates to go on and we had to embark on estimates for the first time. Since then things have improved to a considerable degree , I would say. During 1964/65 we surrendered 20 per cent of the total estimates at the end of the financial year. In 1965/1966 , we surrendered 17 per cent of the money made available ; and the indications are that for this year, 1966/1967 , we shall be surrendering less than 10 per cent, so it has gone down from 20 per cent the first year, to 17 per cent the second year and this year to 10 per cent or even less perhaps , but very near 10 per cent, which brings it nearer to what could be regarded as normal.
7. Chairman. ) Are the agricultural bursaries included in this scheme?- (Mr. Faure ) Yes, bursaries are included under that one sub-head. 8. Chairman. ) To which office does one actually direct an application for these bursaries ? (Mr. Faure) An officer applies to the head of the department in which he is employed, and the application is then referred to the Public Service Commission for consideration and a recommendation. (Mr. Mills) But if it is an outside person it goes direct to the Public Service Commission. 9. Chairman. ) The reason I ask this question is that in regard to these agricultural bursaries people used to make application through the Magistrate. (Mr. Mills) I think you are perhaps mixing up two things - the bursaries to the Tsolo School of Agriculture still go according to the old procedure , but part of the difficulty here is that we also provided bursaries for degrees in agriculture , engineering, etc. at Universities . We made provision on the estimates and made representations to the Republic for faculties at which such students could be taken up. That is still under negotiation but we felt we should provide money here even although such faculties do not as yet exist. It is part of a scheme to get these facilities at the existing Bantu Universities .
Vote 1 - Chief Minister and Finance , (Page 10.) Gifts by the Government, Sub-head E , R250 (paragraph 2. ) 5. Chairman.) Mr. Faure , it is observed that the amount of R250 donated to a charitable organisation in respect of welfare services rendered by this body in the Transkei is described as a gift. Have these services by the body concerned been discontinued then? If not, have annual grants-in-aid been considered ? - (Mr. Faure ) Mr. Chairman , I anticipated your question on that point and I have my reply ready. For three weeks during November, 1965 , the South African National Council for the Blind carried out a clinic tour in one district of the Transkei , performing eye operations to restore sight where possible. It is the aim of the Council for the Blind to undertake one such tour inthe Transkei each year, but because health services in the Transkei are still the responsibility of the Republican Government, and bearing in mind that the Council receives R31,000 per annum in financial assistance , (please note , not a grant- in- aid)from the Republican Deapartment of Health for the investigation of causes of blindness amongst the Bantu people and the treatment of trachoma and blindness, it was decided that the payment of a grant-in-aid by the Government of the Transkei at this stage would not be prudent, especially as the Transkei Government receives substantial grants from the Republican Government. It would be a question ofthe Republican Government granting this Government money to give to an organisation which is already being assisted financially by the firstmentioned Government. The single payment was made merely as a token of appreciation.
Miscellaneous Funds And Accounts - District Authorities, (paragraph 7 (2) , page 26. ) 10. Chairman. ) Mr. Mills , has the question of the "other assets " referred to in this paragraph been suitably finalised under Ministerial direction ? - Mr. Mills) Mr. Chairman, no, not all of it. You know the amendment to the Transkeian Authorities Act was signed in September, 1966 . Since then we have had an investigation in all In twelve districts the districts concerned. there are no assets to be disposed of. In six districts we have disposed of the assets . Another eight districts are still outstanding. The magistrates have got to investigate the matter in conjunction with the tribal authorities or the regional authority of the area. In some cases difficulties arise. There are things like a typewriter, a building, etc. and it takes time to decide to which authority it should be transBut there are only eight districts ferred. still outstanding out of the 26. The other have been disposed of. Tuesday, 16th May , 1967 .
Appropriation Account - Sub- head M - Government Service Bursary Scheme.
PRESENT. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , J.M. Sineke , M.H. Canca. Mr. J.L. Boshoff, Secretary for Education, was examined.
6. Chairman. ) Mr. Faure it is observed that only an amount of R648 out of R6,000 voted , was expended on this scheme and the reason furnished for the saving was that very few applications for assistance were received. Was the scheme properly advertised ? - (Mr. Faure) Mr. Chairman, I would first like to amplify the reasons for the over-estimation. Of 65 students who tentatively indicated that they wished to participate in the law study subsidisation scheme , at least 40 failed to register as students with the University of South Africa , i.e. after funds had been provided for the purpose on the estimates .
REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER AND AUDITOR -GENERAL ON THE TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS 1965/1966 . (CONTINUED ) Transfer of Community Schools to the GovernDisestablishment of Schoo! Boards ment disposal of Assets (paragraph 17 )
469.
11. Chairman. ) Mr. Boshoff, as the Transkei Education Act, 1964, became operative from the 1st April , 1965 , can you please enlighten the Committee why this matter could not be finalised by the 31st March, 1966 , and has it been finalised since ? - (Mr. Boshoff) Mr. Chairman , I wish to reply as follows to the question. The transfer of the community schools to the Government - in other words , the community schools becoming state schools has not as yet been completed. There are still a few matters outstanding and the position now really is as follows : Soon after the passing of the Transkei Education Act in 1964 the school boards were instructed by the Department to close their books and have them balanced and to pay out all the amounts standing to the credit of the school committees , in other words , to issue cheques to the school committees under the control of each and every school board. It soon became evident that the balancing of these books to close the accounts was a very huge task and in many instances the books of the school boards were in such a huge muddle that it was just impossible for them to complete the task. Even the Circuit Inspectors and their administrative organisers could not be of much assistance to them because the task of balancing the books and bringing them up to date So as to be able to estaolish exactly what the amounts were which were standing to the credit of the school committee was really the work of a man who is well conversant in the art of bookkeeping. Consequently , I think it was in August 1965 , the Department decided to call in all the books of the school boards and one of the departmental officers who had wide experience in this matter was specially set aside to close the books and finalise the accounts. The muddle , I refer to, was in some instances so great that this man had to re-write some of the books up to and including August 1965 in order to gain a true picture of what the position was . He has just completed his work at the end of April this year . In respect of the two school boards of Mount Frere and Tabankulu the books have not as yet been balanced and how that is going to be done , I do not know, because the documents necessary to balance the books are not there, consequently he is unable to balance them. That, in short , is the position. The cash found in the school board accounts in the various branches of the banks in the Transkei was paid into what is known as a School board Fund Suspense Account controlled by the Department's Accountant, and I think an amount of some R7,200 was found in the banking accounts of the various school boards . That amount would then accrue to the Transkeian Revenue Fund after payment of the school committees. I hope you understand how the whole thing worked. Each school committee had its own account but it was kept by the school board so , on dissolution of the school boards , each committee had to receive its money from the school board because the school committees remained. They were not abolished under the act. After payment of all these moneys to the committees the residue would then accrue to the Transkei Revenue Fund and that would amount to some R7,000 . Unfortunately, many of the school boards allowed , quite against the regulations , the school committees to overdraw their accounts . The regulations stated very clearly that no school committee was to be allowed to overdraw its account with the school board, but many of the school boards did that and when these accounts had to be balanced it caused a great deal of trouble . Consequently the position today is that there is quite a substantial amount outstanding on account of the overdrawing of accounts . The only way we can get
it back is from the existing school committees and the Department is taking steps to try and get it back, but whether we will succeed is a different matter. So I think you have the true picture of the present position . 12. Chairman. ) Just for our general knowledge , perhaps the Secretary could tell us offhand whether these moneys to be paid back to the school committees have all been paid back. - (Mr. Boshoff) To those school committees that have alYou see , when the school ready been formed . boards were dissolved new school committees had to be elected at each school , and at some of these schools which are very isolated we still had up till recently a few instances where the committees had not been formed and we could not pay out the amount until the school committee had But in the great majority of been established . cases there are only a few where the moneys have not been paid over , with the exception of course of Tabankulu and Mount Frere , where we still have to balance the books and we still have to come to some agreement about them .
Defective Staff Records. (paragraph 21 , page 7.) 13. Chairman. ) Mr. Boshoff, I believe new staff records have subsequently been introduced . Are these cards now complete in all respects ? I can reply to that question as (Mr. Boshoff) follows : That when the Transkei Education Department was established two or three years ago we received all the files from the Department of Bantu Education because all the files were in Pretoria. That department has not got They have a card a separate card system. system which is kept on the file. Here in the Transkei the auditor insisted on a separate card system. Last year these cards were written up for teachers . Also , in consultation with the officers of the Audit Department , it was decided not to transfer the entire history of a teacher on to the new card . All that was transferred was the information necessary for the present in order to handle the situation as it is . If any query or information about the man's past was needed, the file is there with all the information. This task was completed towards the end of last year , so each teacher now has a personnel card which is the same as the staff record card used in the Public Service for each teacher. The card is not entirely to our liking . It could be improved upon but in the meantime The information on the card is the it will do. name of the teacher, date of birth, date of appointment, the school where he is, the district where he teaches , his salary scale , rank and salary notch. There is other information which is not as yet written up. In many cases we have not got the information - for instance , marital status - and what has not yet been transferred is the information on the pension fund - the pension fund number of the teacher and the date of his entry into the pension fund. The reason is that the pension Act has not been finally promulgated and as soon as that is done the information will be entered on the card . So for general purposes and the purpose of the Department the card is now complete because the Department itself does not work with the pension fund. That is the work It will be of the Department of the Interior . merely an entry on the card to make the information on the teacher complete , but the Education Department will seldom need that. Wednesday, 17th May, 1967 . PRESENT. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , M. Canca ,
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J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota.
applied today. Sothat is so. You know the position is that where a man can get something for nothing he always comes forward . Many people do, and that is the same with the pensions and it applies not only to the Transkei but to the whole world. The department concerned has always been very wide awake because people are going to try and get as much as they can from it. Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether the member is satisfied with that. I am not aware of any specific cases where pensions were stopped for short periods only. (Mr. Nota) I wonder if the Department would investigate one case which I have found out about? (Mr. Burger) If the member comes to my office we can talk it over and see what we can do.
Mr. J.A. Burger, Secretary for the Interior , was examined. REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER AND AUDITOR -GENERAL ON THE TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS , 1965/1966 (CONTINUED . ) Exemptions from Normal Tender Procedure (Schedule to paragraph 10(2) , page 4) 14. Chairman. ) Mr. Burger, can you please explain to the Committee why it was necessary to depart from normal procedure of calling for tenders in this instance affecting your Department? 1 (Mr. Burger) Mr. Chairman, as you all know the very first voters ' roll was printed by by the Government Printer in Pretoria. That
16. Chairman. ) Mr. Burger, please enlighten the Committee on this subject. - (Mr. Burger) There is reference here to an abnormal increase in pensioners and beneficiaries . This question follows very nicely on the one raised by the member just now. During 1965 it was evident that there was an abnormal and alarming increase in pensions and the number of beneficiaries. The Controller and Auditor- General was alarmed, and the Department of the Interior and the Department of Finance were alarmed. The Department of the Interior went into the matter. It contacted magistrates to find out what the causes were of the alarming increase in old I won't age pensions and disability grants . refer to blind and leprosy allowances here . It is pointed out here that the increase fluctuated between 2 and 52 per cent. We called for explanations from the various magistrates . One magistrate said in his district the old age pensioners had not been attended to for a long period , for 12 to 18 months, with the result that there was a backlog and when they got stuck in there was a big number of applicants which were pushed through and that accounted for the high increase. In other cases , and in most cases , the explanation was that on account of the severe drought conditions people were coming forward. They just had to do something because there was nothing on the land and the cattle and sheep were People who qualified as far as aid was dying. concerned, but who could do without a pension under normal conditions , could no longer do so It says in the and they applied for pensions . report that this aspect was still under investigation at the time of writing the report , in order to place the matter on a sound footing. That is still the position. A man has been sent out from this office to inspect the position in one district , the district of Qumbu, and to report back , and we have had his report and the magistrate's views on the report, and now we are going to discuss the matter again between the officers of Finance , Interior and the Controller and Auditor- General . If So the matter is still receiving attention . there are any questions that the members wish to ask I will reply. - (Mr. Nota) Why has it been necessary to send this officer to that particular district of Qumbu? - (Mr. Burger) It was decided in collaboration with other departments to send a man to one district. It just so happened it was Qumbu , but there was no specific reason. He could have gone to Nqamakwe or Tsolo , but we wanted to get the report of an outsider and it made no difference to us to which district he went.
was still arranged and organised by the Secretary for the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and with the first, and also the second, by-elections which were the Fingo and Umzimkulu by-elections , we were not yet sufficiently organised to have the voters ' roll printed here in Umtata as was done with the recent byelections . We did not at the time call for tenders , but we approached the Tender Board pointing out that we have approached various printers for quotations and I can just quote here that the Government Printer quoted R7,600 for the lists , A Transvaal firm quoted over R12,000 . We approached local Printers but they indicated they were not sufficiently organised to print the lists. Under the circumstances the Tender Board agreed that it was not necessary to call for tenders . As I said, we asked for quotations and it virtually amounted to the same thing and on those grounds the tender board agreed that no formal tenders be called for . Vote 4 - Interior. Social Pensions . (paragraph 1 , page 13.) 15. Mr. Nota.) Mr. Burger, it happens at times that old age pensioners do get their pension and then about two months later they do not get it. I would like an explanation of the causes of such a situation . - (Mr. Burger) You mean that a beneficiary draws his pension and all of a sudden there is a stop , just for an interim period , and then the pension is paid again ? - (Mr. Nota) Yes . (Mr. Burger) May I ask if that has happened on numerous occasions or is it just an isolated instance ? - (Mr. Nota) I have come across this thing in various districts at various times. (Mr. Burger) I do not know under what circumstances a person drawing a pension would stop drawing it for two months . In terms of instructions the magistrates are requested to review all cases on the register every month. It may happen that a magistrate reviews a case and finds that when applying the means test the man is not entitled to the pension and it is then stopped , but in a few months ' time circumstances are different and have altered , and that man again becomes entitled to the pension. He is re- instated and his name is put back onthe register, but I have never had any complaints of pensions being stopped for an interim period only. It is quite possible that pensions be stopped altogether. We have reviewed cases and I think in February this year we came across one man who was drawing a pension but he was working for the Railways at the time. It was stopped altogether In other cases it was discovered that people who were drawing pensions did not qualify so far as the means test is concerned . I know a lot has been said about the means test and people do not like it, but it is still to be
Miscellaneous Funds and Accounts - Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund (page 25) 17. Chairman. ) Mr. Burger , what was the average rate of actual interest earned for the year 471 .
under review and, in view of the current high rates of interest obtainable , is the guaranteed interest rate of 4 per cent not rather low? - (Mr. Burger) Mr. Chairman , Mr. Oosthuizen, our Accountant is here and I will ask him to reply - (Mr. Oosthuizen) The method of to that. calculation ofwhat the annual guaranteed interest should amount to was agreed to by the Auditor and according to this formula the minimum interest which should have accrued to the fund was R20,224.57 , whereas the amount actually received was R24,744.75 , i.e. an average rate of approximately 4.9 per cent for the year under review. The guaranteed rate of 4 per cent was determined to ensure the fund's solvency over a long period, during which the ruling rate of interest could at times drop below this percenThe fund's balances are always invested tage . to the best advantage and it would therefore serve no useful purpose to increase the guaranteed interest rate in relation to temporary fluctuations in the ruling rate of interest. - (Mr. Burger) So what it boils down to is that these funds are always , in spite of the minimum of 4 per cent provided for , invested to the best It is invested at a much more advantage. favourable rate than 4 per cent and, as pointed out, to raise the minimum of 4 per cent to 6 per cent, for example , may also be dangerous for it may happen that should the general interest fall to lower than 6 per cent, the Government would have to make good the shortages .
information was made much more difficult than normally is the case . I can assure the Committee that with the experience now gained and with the better records , the next valuation should be a much easier task than this one.
Tuesday, 23rd May, 1967 PRESENT Messrs R. Msengana ( Chairman) , K.G. Nota and J.M. Sineke . Messrs J.J. Muller , Senior Auditor and S.W. Pienaar , Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry were in attendance . REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER AND AUDITOR -GENERAL ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS ETC. ( CONTINUED)
Losses (paragraph 7 , page 2)
Actual Valuation (paragraph 3(4) 18. Chairman. ) Mr. Burger , was the actuarial valuation done subsequently? · (Mr. Burger) I will ask Mr. Brigg to explain what happened there and what the position is. - (Mr. Brigg) This Fund was due for its five - yearly valuation on the 30th June , 1966. We contacted the actuaries in Johannesburg, and asked them what their requirements were in this regard . They duly sent us a comprehensive list of schedules which had to be On completed in respect of the valuation. receipt of this we got busy compiling all the required information but we encountered difficulties , and for this reason that at the time of the advent of the Transkeian Government there was a certain amount of disruption in the records . As you know, the Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension Gratuity Fund was taken over from the Transkeian Territorial Authority which was the Fund used by the Authority at the time. The records of that Territorial Authority were laterly kept by the Authority itself. When the Transkei Government came into being those were taken over by the Transkei Government and when the information came to be sought for the purposes of valueing this Fund , a certain amount of difficulty was encountered in tracing all the necessary information. It was there , but it was not readily available , so it took longer than usual for the information to be accumulated and set out in the form the The result was actuaries wished to have it. that the completed schedules only went to the actuaries at the beginning of this month, nearly I can six months later than was required . assure the Connittee that everything possible has been done by my Department to expedite it. Some of the information was very involved and had to be supplied in extreme detail . The contributions of individual members had to be supplied; when members died ; when they came into the Fund. It was not simply a case of furnishing statistics or a general statement. It had to be in the most precise detail and with the provisional inclusion of over 1800 teachers in the Fund at the beginning of 1966 , the compiling of 472 .
19. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar , it is stated here that an assessed loss of R23,287 occurred as a result of two fires in a plantation. Were the causes ever established? Have preventative measures been taken to obviate recurrences of this nature ? - (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman , no , the causes have never been established although both instances have been very carefully investigated by officers of my department and by the South African Police . It was not possible to establish the causes of the fire . We have our suspicions and ideas as to how it could have originated . In one case we think it might have been honey-hunters who set the grass alight and caused the fire , but it was never proved and nobody was ever arrested for being suspected of starting the fire. As to preventative measures being taken, I can only say that in the agricultural branch of my department the preventative measures taken against fire form rather a major undertaking. We have a system built up according to practices used throughout the world and the practices generally used in the Republic of South Africa. It consists of quite an organisation. In the first place one could mention different types of equipment being used, but I don't think it is necessary to go into detail. I could mention, for your information , fire look- outs stationed at strategic points in all the big plantations so that a fire can be seen when it starts in the early stages . We also have linked up all our plantations with radio network so that they can call each other up quickly and report fire. One need not then even see the fire but one knows where to go . There are also fire-breaks which are burnt or ploughed to get wide paths to prevent fire from spreading and As far as there are numerous such things . staffing is concerned , we keep a certain number of staff in the plantations , especially over weekends , for no other purpose but to make sure we have people on hand in case fire breaks out. In the winter season - the fire season · we usually double up and intensify the whole thing so that we have day and night look- outs , and we increase the number of people we have onthe spot to fight fires , etc. The whole road system in a forest is usually planned not only to be able to take the wood out one day, but also to get in quickly with fire-fighting equipment. We also keep forest guards for different purposes , but one of the reasons is to keep unauthorised people out of the forest or plantation because you never know when they are going to start a fire . Some may do it accidentally or it could be a case of arson, but one thing the guards have to do is to check all people coming into the plantations . So the whole fire -fighting system is a well organised one but
it is not always possible to prevent fires because if you want to prevent people going into a plantation you would have to have almost an army to make sure no-one could enter. Exemption from Norman Tender Procedure (Schedule to paragraph 10 (2), page 4) 20. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar, can you please explain to the committee why it was necessary to depart from the normal procedure of calling for tenders in these instances affecting your department? (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman, the first item refers to decorticating machines . At that stage when we asked authority to do away with normal tender procedure we had in South Africa and in the whole world only a few machines which could decorticate phormium tenax leaves , so there was a machine which was a prototype of the machine being used in New Zealand, which is generally called the Majoor machine in South Africa. We have been using those machines in the Transkei for a number ofyears , but they have been quite unsatisfactory. They could not give the type of fibre required, although they gave a better type than you get in New Zealand today, but it was not acceptable by the trade in South Africa. We , therefore , had to get other machines for a better type of fibre . To do that, the South African Government imported a machine from Germany (the Corona ) and then there was a third machine in South Africa at the time - the Cormorant. There were only these three machines at the time which could decorticate . There was a firm in Natal trying to develop another machine the Elgin but that machine was still in the There were no early stages of development . extra machines , and this was just an experimental one. So if one wanted to buy a machine at that stage one had a choice of only three. One was the Corona which at that time we were only erecting they had not even started working it and it therefore had not proved itself, so it was out of the question to get another Corona before finding out whether it could do the work properly. Then there were the Majoor machines which we knew were completely unsatisfactory , and there was the third one , the Cormorant , which we knew was very like the Majoor. It had drawbacks but it was a better machine. At that stage the Xhosa Development Corporation came into the picture and they were busy developing a big facfory in the Transkei . They said it was essential to have a certain amount of fibre to send as soon as possible overseas in connection with tests for the spinning and weaving of this type of fibre but, remember, they said the Majoor fibre was unacceptable , so the only thing we could do was to buy a Cormorant machine . What happened there was that we could only buy the Cormorant to satisfythe Xhosa Development Corporation in its requirements and it was important that we should go out of our way to get a bag factory established in the Transkei, so we had at that time (it was March last year) the money in the new financial year to buy a Cormorant. The Xhosa Development Corporation were pressing and said they had to have this very quickly so we were therefore not in a position to wait and go through the normal procedures of the tender board, which was a lenThe Xhosa Development Corporagthy thing. tion said it would inconvenience them very much if we took a long time over it. There was only the one type of machine we could buy and only three had been imported into South Africa. Two had been sold by the sole agent in this country and there was one left. The agents said they would keep it for us for a week and after that they could not guarantee that we could have
473.
the machine. We felt we would have to buy a machine like that in any case and it was no good going to tender because there was no one else to tender. We therefore felt quite justified in going to the Tender Board and asking them to do away with normal procedure and we bought the machine. The matter of windmills is another one . There we also had our problems. The position was that during 1964 we invited quotations for the importation of windmills and at that stage the only firm who could supply windmills at a reasonable price was a certain firm from whom we had had quotations in 1964. We were influenced by the fact that this firm had supplied good quality windmills in the past and that 90 per cent of the windmills in the Transkei had been supplied by them. We had the other difficulty in that we were in a very unfavourable position as far as staff was concerned . We did not have many staff who could erect and maintain windmills , so we felt it would be wrong to erect new types of windmills . We , therefore , approached the Tender Board for authority to dispense with the invitation of tenders and to authorise the department to purchase out of hand, as it were , because we did not know how many windmills we would require . We could not say we wanted 30 or 40 windmills and when they were to be delivered because we did not know how the work would progress . The main factor was that this firm had been the previous suppliers and we knew from quotations in the previous year that they were the only people who could supply the type of windmill we wanted at a reasonable price and it was the only type which the staff had a reasonable knowledge of and could handle fairly well. Stores
other than Standard Stock Stores (paragraph 11 (2) page 4)
21. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar, what type of Stocks is involved here and is the maintenance of such a store really a necessity? - (Mr. Pienaar) The type of stores which is referred to here really consists of stores which had been ordered by the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Forestry previous to selfgovernment in the Transkei . At that time both those departments had their separate stores in the Transkei and they had a fairly big stock in their stores, which were amalgamated when the Department of Agriculture and Forestry was formed. The result was that when the department came into being we had quite a big store consisting of items from previous governments and we inherited more or less whatever they had. There was quite a number of items which had become more or less redundant or obsolete , things which could not readily be used any more, consisting mainly of spare parts for, say jackhammers and chain saws and even tractors and ploughs . Some of those machines had been taken out of use and the spare parts were left there. What happened then was that we had quite a number of items on hand which we could not readily dispose of. They were held in the central store , as it was called at the time, and then the department decided to do away with the central store in Umtata. When that happened we issued to the district stores all we had in that store, but there remained those articles which were no longer of any use because they were obsolete . So although the central store had been closed down we had the stores records with all these items on it, although it was not really a store in the true sense of the word any more and we were not allowing officers to requisition on them . The reason why we did not dispose of it sooner was that we held it to see what possible
overtime by employing extra people it would amount more or less to doubling the complement of forest guards in the Transkei , which would be a terrific expense . Although we are fully aware that we would like to employas many people as possible, there is still the economic aspect. You cannot just throw the money away. You must consider whether it is a sound thing or not.
ways we could find to make use of these articles , even by issuing them to other departments such as Roads and Works. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, things do not go so very fast always , but the position is that we are not maintaining a store at all, but tomorrow we are having a public auction at which we hope to dispose of those articles , so there is really no such store in being any more.
Appropriation Account (Sub- head N, page 16)
Extra
Remuneration
(paragraph
14,
page 4) 23. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar , it is observed that out of an appropriation of R5,000 only an amount of R2,650 was expended on this service . What is actually being done and what is envisaged in this respect? (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman, admittedly that is a difficult little item . The idea is to try and preserve the fauna and flora of the Transkei as much as we can because it is an established fact and we know right throughout the world, more or less , that all developed countries appreciate their fauna and flora and they try and keep it for posterity as much as possible , because it is a very great value in the life of any nation. We had in mind to try and start the same thing in the Transkei by creating a few nature reserves , for instance to set aside certain areas suitable for the purpose by fencing them in, providing camping spots for tourists and so on, and to make sure that we can preserve some of the natural beauty of the Transkei which the Transkei is very famous for. Under that subhead we also have our hunting packs . You are well aware of the fact that the department maintains a few hunting packs which are responsible for the eradication of vermin. What happened this year wat that the expenditure in connection with this was more or less solely on the extermination of vermin and very little on the The reason conservation of fauna and flora. why we did not do much in that respect was that in the first place we have not really an officer to take charge of that, with the necessary knowledge and experience and , apart from that, although the Government has approved in principle , it has not been possible to get approval for any specific area to be proclaimed a nature reserve . With the one we had in mind the position was complicated by reason of the fact that it was connected with privately owned land and although the owners of the land were quite willing to dispose of the land to the Government , it was just not possible to do it because the legal position there was such that they could not sell. The will had not been administered for many years and there were a dozen or more owners to that one specific piece of land and we are still trying to find out where they are , because they would all have to approve of that sale. That is why we spend so little under this sub-head , because we could not do much as far as fauna and flora were concer-
22. Chairman . ) Mr. Pienaar , it is observed that the extra remuneration was in respect of weekend overtime to Foresters and Forestry Guards. Would the appointment of extra staff, thus creating more opportunity for work, not solve the necessity for overtime ? - (Mr. Pienaar) No , Mr. Chairman , it would not solve the problem and I This was also the will try and explain why. system inherited from the previous department We have tried of Forestry in South Africa . what you suggested in your question - for example, the same system was being used at When the Vulindlela factory started Highbury. people were also being paid overtime to stand guard and look after the mill over weekends . The department has since changed the position completely. We have appointed additional staff watchmen and so on who work on a system of three shifts per day of eight hours each shift. We have at least one for each shift right throughWe employ that system beout the 24 hours. cause it is practical and works well . There we could say : You work from 8 o'clock till 4, and you work from this time to that time. There is no problem because they all know their times. Mention is made in our vote of forest guards and foresters . As a matter of fact that is not the true position any more. It is only people not on the fixed establishment who are getting overtime I will try and explain briefly what payment. the problem is there. Say we have a number of forests in a certain area . They may be situated twenty miles apart. They would constitute more or less a full load for one person to guard them . He travels from one to another on horseback or on foot, and it is just sufficient load to keep one man occupied. Now if you were to employ somebody else over and above that it would mean that that extra person would only be working two days a week and that would be over the weekend , and that would not be a full load . They can employ people for two days a week but it is unusual. The people you want to employ as forest guards have to be responsible in employment , people who are well known and whom you can rely on to a large extent to look after themselves , because you may not see them for a fortnight and they must be relied on to go and do that work. To employ two people would mean they are not fully employed . You would have to supply extra uniforms and extra accommodation and if you were to do it on a part-time basis then you would not have any control over the man really because you would not know whether he is doing his work proAs it is you see these people - for inperly. stance , the supervisory officer would go and see the forest guard who may be twenty miles away. If he lets that man know that he is coming to see him on a certain afternoon then it is no use because he will not know if that man is really doing his work. The only way you can tell if he is doing his work is the condition of the forest and so on. So you have to rely on people who are well known and who have been employed for some time . Furthermore, the people have to be That is the important factor . fully employed. You cannot employ a man and not give him a day's work, so if you try and overcome this
ned and the expenditure was limited more or less to the extermination of vermin. Miscellaneous Funds and Accounts - Transkeian Animal Husbandry Improvement Account (paragraph 4 (3) , page 25. ) 24. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar, can you please explain to the committee why this account was not operated on, although the approved estimates provided for expenditure totalling R14,000 ?(Mr. Pienaar) If I remember correctly, Mr. Chairman, those estimates were approved early in January in 1965 and therefore we really let three months go by in that financial year without expending any of those funds . The reason why that happened was to a large extent because we did not have the staff available to do the work. We had good reason at the time when we drew
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rest would have to be invested. If I remember correctly the officer responsible for finding out about investments was away, perhaps not on leave but in the district and when he got back he had a number of things to attend to. The result was that they had to make investigations as to where it would be best to invest this money . We made a recommendation to the Secretary for Finance and he did not agree to that , and a few more days went by before it was decided to invest with the Bantu Investment Corporation. It is difficult to explain exactly what happened , but I am trying to give you an indication as to how easily a matter can take a very long time to go through various officers , especially with field staff who are often away at work and not at I think that accounts mainly for their offices . the delay which took place in this instance .
up the estimates to expect that someone would be appointed in a short time to be responsible for that work. However, as things happen very often in the Government service , it is not easy to get someone appointed and it in fact took very much longer . Where we thought someone would be appointed at the beginning of the calendar year he was eventually only appointed at the end of 1965. So with the staff available it was physically impossible to staff any of the works which would have been undertaken under those estimaThe point I would like to make is that we tes. had every reason to expect that we would nave someone to do the work but through no fault of ours he was only appointed at the end of the year. 25. Chairman. ) Mention is made here of the apparent loss of interest to the Account of approximately R2,200 . Can you please explain the circumstances? (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman, yes . The Controller and Auditor-General drew the attention of the department to it at the time and we replied to them on the 15th November , 1966, in this connection. To a large extent my reply to you will have to be the same as my reply to the Controller and Auditor-General. It had come to our notice very definitely and we went into the matter fairly carefully. I can remember very well the circumstances , having gone into the matter previously and I wish to state at the beginning that the department is fully aware of the fact that there was a loss of interest. On the other hand the department has a very good reason why it worked out that way. It was not
Wednesday, 24th May, 1967. PRESENT . Messrs R. Msengana (Chairman) , K.G. Nota , J.M. Sineke and M.H. Canca. Messrs J.J. Muller, Senior Auditor and Mr. W. Grabe , Secretary for Roads and Works were in attendance. REPORT OF THE CONTROLLERAND AUDITOR -GENERAL ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS ETC. (CONTINUED) Revenue
a matter of negligence on the part ofthe department. The attention of the department was drawn to the fact that the account had been opened and that R300,000 had been deposited with the Bantu Investment Corporation and that there was now a sum of R18,400 odd which was still in the account and which we had to do something about. Now the matter came to the department first on the 2nd November, 1966 , and the money was only really invested, if I remember correctly. as advised by the interdepartmental Accountant, on the 14th March, 1966. In other words , some time elapsed in between but during that period my file shows that the matter had been dealt What I would like to with fourteen times. stress here, is that it was not mere negligence. The matter was not left there . The department had been working on the matter all along. Some of the reasons which could be attributed to the fact that it took so long was that this period also stretches over Christmas and the holiday period. We were very short- staffed and the staff was working under very difficult conditions at the If you can envisage how things go in a time. department with matters like this , the file would come to me at my office and I would deal with it and send it with instructions to another officer. In that relatively short period three to four days might elapse before it has moved from me to Remember that that officer another officer. probably has a stack of files on his table to get through and it may take a few days before he gets to the file, which may be at the bottom of the stack . If I point out that the matter had been dealt with fourteen times and couple ofdays have been taken up each time in the period , you can understand why it takes so long. Then, also , it was during the holiday period and it is insisted that people take their holidays at certain times and you have to work out a roster so that each one can take their holiday in turn. The people responsible for this matter went away on leave and every time someone went on leave the matter Eventually when the estimates was delayed . were approved we realised that we had the situation where we could spend the R18,000 and the
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Building Services , Sub-head J. (paragraph 2) 26. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe , it is mentioned here that no details could be furnished of the expenditure incurred, during the year under review , on minor works , i.e. where the ultimate expenditure on indivudual items is estimated to be less than R8,000 . What safeguard is there that a work started as a minor work could not ultimately develop into a major work without the necessary Treasury sanction? - (Mr. Grabe) Mr. Chairman, the answer is that it is possible that the final costs of a service originally estimated as a minor work finally exceed the maximum of R8,000 allowed for this class of work. When this happens the main causes are found to be that (a) the excess is due to rising building costs ; and (b) the department concerned has asked for additional accommodation. In regard to (a) the service must have been near the limit in the first place for rising costs to have affected the issue. The resulting excess is always very small. The number of minor works services which lie in the neighbourhood of R8,000 is in itself small , the majority of them being much lower than the upper limit. Those cases which are estimated at very near R8,000 are in any case registered as major works rather than the other, since by the time the service is proceeded with, circumstances pertaining at the time of estimating may have changed for the worse . The important possibility to consider is the one recorded under (b). It has already happened that a service starts off as a minor work and when in progress the department concerned or other interested departments require additional accommodation. The service can obviously not at this stage be changed to a major work, yet it must proceed in the interests of the Government. In such a case it is necessary in the first place that the Public Service Commission approve of the additional accommodation as an essential requirement. No accommodation whatever over R4,000 can be built without a Public Service Commission 475.
carry on like this for a while.
certificate of approval. A copy of this certificate is forwarded to the Treasury as well . The department upon receipt of the Commission's approval then applies, with the necessary motivation, for the additional funds reThere is therefore no possibility of quired. by-passing the Treasury on this score . It may
Motor Vehicle Accidents (paragraph 4(1) read with paragraph 7 , page 2 - Net Losses) 29. Chairman . ) Mr. Grabe , why is the accident figure so particularly high, and in view of the large amount of the net loss involved , viz . R34,216, are any preventative measures being taken? - (Mr. Grabe) This can be an involved matter, Mr. Chairman, but I can condense it to the following : Having regard to the 4,000,000 odd miles travelled by the transport section's 488 vehicles alone and the mileage travelled by 136 road-making vehicles and hours worked by 276 road machines , the accident figure is not so particularly high, also bearing in mind that so many of the drivers , although licensed , were still comparatively inexperienced and also irresponsible in that the causes of the accidents , in the majority of cases , were reckless or negligent driving and in some cases driving whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor. The transport section was responsible for the accident costs of R14,000 , the balance being the costs of accidents which were incurred by the roads section. It should further be remembered that many of the so - called accidents were mainly what could be termed reportable damage to vehicles . The preventative measures taken to combat the frequency of accidents are : Courses for drivers to receive tuition on road safety and vehicle care. After the courses the drivers will be enrolled as members of the Road Safety Association and will then, as an incentive , compete for Safe Driving Diplomas and trophies . The establishment of a Road Safety Committee for the Transkei is a second step , with an office in Umtata with two Bantu Officers , amongst others , to propagate road safety among all employees . The third is the imposition of speed restrictions on XG vehicles . Fourth is that all drivers have been circularised and instructed to keep their vehicles in roadworthy condition and the fifth point is that drivers found guilty of negligent driving are being charged with misconduct in terms of Government Notice R.334 of 1963. Now, accidents could be separated into two classes those that are just light damage to the vehicle and the others which involve heavy damage . We have never separated these . Even light damage is considered as something which has happened and a man must give an account of Yesterday I had the experience in Qamata it.
be mentioned that the department's procedures in regard to major and minor works follow those of the Republican Department of Public Works in every detail . I do not know whether the members want any amplification there. I may perhaps add that among the causes one must consider an obvious one - that of underestimating the services which, when proceeded with, then exceed R8,000 , but we find that under-estimating, if it does happen, is due to rising costs and so it is really rising costs which is the cause of under-estimating. I have not mentioned it separately , except under the rising costs issue. When it exceeds R8,000 by a few rand it is not worth worrying the Treasury over it, provided the sub-head as a whole is not exceeded as a result. From this year the minor works will feature under a different head altogether, and that might lead to better control , but we have never yet ignored the necessity for approaching Treasury. Purchase
and Acquisition of Motor Vehicles (paragraph 3 (1)
27. Chairman . ) Mr. Grabe , have the conditions on which the vehicles were handed over on the 1st July, 1964 , been finalised yet ? If not, what is the difficulty? - (Mr. Grabe ) No , Mr. Chairman, the conditions on which the vehicles were handed , over on 1st July, 1964, have not been finalised yet. This is a matter that falls outside the jurisdiction of my department. It forms a subject of negotiations that are taking place between the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the Department of Transport and the Republican Treasury and no finality has as yet been reached . We have made inquiries and they say it is still being considered Average Cost and Earnings on a Mileage Basis . (paragraph 3 (3) ) 28. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe , from the information furnished here it would seem, taking into consideration the total mileage performed , as reflected in the previous paragraph, that a substantial profit was made on motor transport. I take it the earnings are credited to Revenue , thus inflating Revenue at the cost of Expenditure . Can you please enlighten the committee as to the present state of affairs ? - (Mr. Grabe) Yes , Mr. Chairman, the position is that my department still charges the same tariffs for the hire of its vehicles as were applicable during the financial year 1965/1966 . The department approached the Treasury with a suggestion to reduce these rates , thereby also reducing the profit obviously, but the Treasury was of the opinion that before consideration to such a step could be given the experience gained and the statistics used should stretch over a longer period . The earnings are credited to Revenue . They mention the fact that in South West Africa , as a matter of fact, Government Transport is given out at a higher rate than in the Republic and why should we lower ours if there is a case where the opposite is the case where they have conditions similar to our own in the Transkei , and they have felt that the experience we have had so far is too short. We may have to put them up after a year or so and the situation might be rather embarrassing , so they asked us to
area of taking up a stone and I noticed this morning that my petrol tank was leaking ever so slightly, but I had to report that as an accident. Somebody drives past you and a stone flies up and smashes the windscreen. That must be reported as an accident. It is said that we have so many accidents but the majority are , in fact, minor accidents . You will notice that there is a big difference between last year's and this year's figure, indicating that the severity of the accident , or the class of accident , is of a minor Another thing is that of the R34,000 nature . mentioned there only R14,000 was due to the transport section's activities and R20,000 was due to the road section's activities . There you must expect more damage to your equipment than in normal transport, because of the heavier work they do. If a man drops a rock from his shovel on to the body of his truck there is a dent and it has to be reported . Also in working off the road you might cut a tyre to bits through a sharp rock and that has to be reported . We do not supply a new tyre for nothing and the man has to explain what happened , and it is reported as an accident to the machine . Ido think that there
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is enough material for us to be considered about and for that reason we have instituted these different steps, among them the emphasis on the training side and making people more conscious of their responsibilities. The negligent types are not only those who go headlong into a collision with somebody. It is those who forget to put water in the radiator tank or oil in the sump. The engine burns out and that is negligence. Even if the battery is not topped up, damage can be caused. It is a wide subject and I do not want to waste your time but if there are any questions I will answer them.
30. Chairman. ) We thought that most of the damage was caused by carelessness because the driver knows the Government will repair the truck and he will not have to pay. (Mr. Grabe) I dare say that some of it is like that. I don't want to gloss over it because the possibility is there , but some of these accidents are genuine or, shall I say inevitable . On the other hand there are those who drive under the influence of liquor and they do not care also , because of the difficulty of imposing disciplinary action. We have had suggestions put to the Treasury for a system of fines , which is still being considered, but one does not always want to take curative measures of that type it you can cure a lot of it by training.
Schedule of Works (page 21 , Major Works Department of Education - High and Training School Matatiele . 31. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe, according to the explanations furnished for the large saving on subhead J, unexpected difficulties arose from site
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acquisition and planning. Was this alsothe position here and have they been overcome? (Mr. Grabe) Yes , Mr. Chairman , this school was at first to be built on the farm Wallace , then St. Margaret's came into the picture and when Treasury was approached to allow us to proceed with the matter it was found that by that time we had already also considered the planning of a Bantu township outside Matatiele. In consultation with the Department of Education the question was investigated as to whether that high and training school was not best to be sited in that locality than in any of the others , because that is the natural place for it. We were also given to understand that the question of getting a site in the Ramahlokoana location would not take very long to settle and on the strength of that we went over to having the school at Ramahlokoana. First of all there were delays in getting the site transferred or approved for use as a Bantu township, then the Bantu Administration Department gave permission for the planning to be done by them because we have no town planners and if you can get it done through official channels it is always much cheaper. The last we heard was when Bantu Administration said a few weeks ago that they had had so many resignations in that section that they would like to give this out to a town planner in Pretoria. This has been done. We have already done surveys of the ground and have tried to indicate what services we would like for the town, and have indicated that the first site we would like to have laid out is the school. So, as far as this is concerned , we are still of opinion that what we have done is to put the school in the town, where it belongs. Had we put it outside somewhere it would have been in the veld. The delays have been completely due to circumstances beyond our control.
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