Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. First and Second Session. Third Assembly. 19th November, 1973 to 21st November, 1973. 13th March, 1974 to 10th May, 1974 0949949027, 0949949159

Table of contents :
Front Cover
Stock Losses: Transkei Meat Industry
First Reading
SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S N (Minister of the Interior)
Farewell to Assistant Chief Auditor
Budget Speech, 1974
Transkeian Road Traffic Amendment
MOSHESH, the Honourable Chief J D (Minister of Health)
Farewell to the Commissioner-General
10
14
17
21
24
36
Cabinet: Announcement
151
Oath: Administration
Committee Stage
Questions, Replies
Election: Chairman
Transfer of certain tribal authority roads to Government

Citation preview

1-

A

GPD

J 707 ·T3

T732

1973-1414

INDIANA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY DOCUMENTS DEPARTMENT BLOOMINGTON, INDIANA 47400-

S

OVI PUBL

DEPT

A

Republic

South

of

Africa

Government

Transkei

n In me Yananya

Debates ,

of

Transkei

First

the

Legislative

and

Second

Third

March ,

Assembly

Session

Assembly

19th November, 1973 to 21st

13th

1974 .

1974

to

November ,

10th

May,

1974

A

Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly

INDIAN

ITY

UNIVERS

1975

by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty) Ltd., Umtata

1973

Y LIBRAR 菜菜

No. of Copies Printed: 600 Price per Copy

: R1.00

ISBN 0 949949 02 7 FIRST SESSION SECOND SESSION ISBN 0 949949 15 9

121

上

上

INDEX

A Abolition of beer halls, motion ....... 275, 282 ...... 332 ...... ..... Abraham, the Honourable J. H., Farewell Address by Absence of Members Condonation of 9 , 18 , 19 , 28 , 40 , 48 , 50, 131 , 141 154, 163, 174, 184 , 189 , 196 , 246, 257, 262 282, 303, 319 , 330, 349 Address: Opening by the Honourable M. Viljoen, M.P., Minister of Labour ad ...... ...... and of Posts and Telegraphs ......

.....

4

Opening by the Honourable A. J. Raubenheimer M.P. , Deputy Minister 10 ...... ...... ...... ...... of Bantu Development 350 ...... 10, Adjournments of Assembly Administration of Oath ...... ...... ...... 2, 3, 9, 15, 154 ...... Amendment of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 to enable the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to pass legislation for and order and the combatting of subversion Announcements 13, 16, 131 , 139 , 189, 196 , 303, 307, Announcement of Cabinet ......

the maintenance of law ...... ...... ...... 18 , 19, 28, 50, 69, 106, 141 , 151 , 154, 163, 174, 184, 204 , 228, 246, 257 , 262, 272, 319 , 330, 349 ...... ...... 16, 96, 132, Appointment of Committees (including Recess Committee) Assistant Chief Auditor: Farewell to

8 110 188 282

3 174 10

B Beer Halls : Abolition of Bills: Notices of ......

275, 282 ...... ...... 6, 29, 41 , 69 , 154, 223, 237, 272, 282, 309

Bills: Transkeian Additional Appropriation, 1973 First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading Transkeian Apprenticeship, 1974 First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading Transkeian Appropriation First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading Transkei Authorities Amendment First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading Transkeian Education Amendment

...... ...... ...... ......

......

...... ...... ...... ......

...... ......

......

......

...... ......

...... ...... ......

......

First Reading Second Reading ...... Committee Stage ...... ...d Third Reading Transkeian Forest Amendment First Reading ..... Second Reading ...... Committee Stage ...... Third Reading ...... ...... Transkeian Government Service Amendment First Reading ...... ...... Second Reading Committee Stage ...... Third Reading

......

......

......

...... ......

......

6 6 7 8

......

293 321 335 340

69 ...... 97-106 ...... 115, 121 , 132, 165, 190 217

......

......

319 334 341 350

......

...... ...... ------

...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ......

...... ...... ...... ......

.....d ......

......

...... ......

...... ...... ......

229 230 230 230

......

282 293 313 334

303 310 322 334

Transkeian Government Service Pensions Amendment First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage ...... Third Reading Transkeian Marketing First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage ...... Third Reading

......

.....

293 303 335 340

174 223, 230 246 274

Transkeian Motor Carrier Transportation Amendment First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading Transkeian Prisons First Reading Second Reading ...... Committee Stage Third Reading

274 293 304 304

41 218, 221 239 262, 310

Transkeian Road Traffic Amendment First Reading Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading

78 217 232 239 92-96

Budget Speech, 1974 C Cabinet: Announcement of Carletonville: Recruitment of Labourers Chairman: Election of Chief Minister: Election of Church Controlled Hostels and Classrooms: Expropriation of Commissioner-General: Official Farewell of Committees : Appointment of

3 307 2 3 323 330 16, 96, 132, 174 246 28, 40, 48 , 50, 131 , 141 184 , 189 , 196 , 246, 257, 262 330, 349 303 ......

Condolences: Paramount Chief Victor Poto : Messages of Condonation of Members' Absence 9, 18, 19 , 154, 163 , 174, 282, 303, 319, Congratulations: Abolition of Beer Halls' Motion Chief Minister, Cabinet, Governments of the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa for the funeral arrangements for the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto Paramount Chief K. D. Matanzima

339 237 267, 274

Contract Labour System: Revision of

151

Creation of New Chieftainships : Libode Port St. Johns

309

Ꭰ 2

Deputy Chairman: Election of Deputy Minister of Bantu Development: Address by

10

E

Education: Suggested Programme Election: Chairman ...... Chief Minister

Deputy Chairman Expropriation of Church Controlled Hostels and Classrooms Extension of areas of Jurisdiction : Lusikisiki District

328. 341 2 3 2 323 16

F Farewell to Assistant Chief Auditor Farewell to the Commissioner-General

......

...... ......

10 330

......

......

I

69, 78, 88

Independence, Request for J

Jurisdiction: Extension of areas of the Sub-Chieftainships in Lusikisiki District......

16

L 307

Labourers : Recruitment of ... to Carletonville M Members' Absence: Condonation of

9, 18 , 19 , 154, 163, 174, 282, 303, 319, Members of the Transkei Legislative Assembly: Swearing in ...... ...... Messages ...... Motions: Notices of 6, 16, 17, 88 , 106, 111 ,

28 , 40, 48 , 50 , 131 , 184 , 189 , 196 , 246, 257, 330, 349 2, 3, 9, 15, of 19, 246, 18, 19, 41 , 50, 69, 151 , 163 , 237 , 293, 309,

141 262

154 303 78 339

N

New Chieftainships: Creation of: Libode Port St. Johns New Members: Administration of Oath to No Confidence

151 309 2,• 3, 9, 15, 154 19, 29, 41 , 48, 50

Non-payment of Compensation to Whites for recent improvements to properties 314 in Black Zoned Areas Notices of Bills 6, 29, 41 , 69, 154, 223, 237 , 272, 282, 309 Notices of Motion 6, 16, 17, 18 , 19 , 41 , 50 , 69 , 78 88 , 106, 111 , 151 , 163, 237, 293, 309, 339

0

Oath: Administration of Obituaries ... Official Farewell to the Commissioner-General Opening Addresses

2, 3, 9, 15, 154 14, 15, 110, 188 330 4, 10

P 249 Police Stations: Transfer of all to the Transkeian Department of Justice Proclamation R400 : Repeal of 257, 262, 267 Provision of two Chambers in the Legislative Assembly 106, 111 , 233, 245, 248 , 255 Q

Questions , Replies to

119, 164, 189, 228, 272, 319

R

10 Raubenheimer, the Hon. A. J., Opening Address by Recess Committee: Appointment of 96 ...... 307 Recruitment of Labourers: Western Deep Levels, Carletonville Repeal of Proclamation R400 257, 262 , 267 Replies to Questions 119, 164, 189, 228, 272, 319

...... Reports: Tabling of ...... Request for Independence Revision of Contract Labour System ......

18, 19, 78, 88 , 174, 204, 221 , 319 ...... ...... 69, 78, 88 267, 274 ...... 308 Roads: Transfer from Tribal Authority to Government Control 1, 13 Roll Call ...... ...... ...... ...... S

Stock Losses: Transkei Meat Industry

196 328, 341 163 6 2

......

......

Suggested Education Programme Suspension of Member Suspension of Standing Rules Swearing in of New Members

T ...... Tabling of Reports Towns: Transfer of all to Transkeian Government

18, 19 , 78 , 88 , 174, 204, 221 , 319 ...... ...... 284, 294 ...... 297, 304 Zoning of some completely Black 249 Transfer of all Police Stations to the Transkeian Department of Justice 308 Transfer of certain Tribal Authority Roads to Government control 8 ...... ...... Transkei Constitution Act: Proposed Amendment 106, 111 , 233, 245, 248, 255 Two Chambers: Provision of in the Assembly.

V

Viljoen, the Hon. M. , Opening Address by Z 297, 304

Zoning of certain towns completely Black

INDEX OF MINISTERS' SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE (POLICY) SPEECHES MATANZIMA, the Honourable Paramount Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance).

Budget Speech Policy Speech .... Supply Vote 1 Transkeian Authorities Amendment Second Reading Committee Stage ...... ...... Transkeian Government Service Amendment Second Reading ...... Committee Stage ...... .....

67

Bills: Transkeian Additional Appropriation, 1973 Second Reading Committee Stage Transkeian Appropriation, 1974 Second Reading Committee of Supply . ......

...... ......

...... ......

......

......

......

JONAS, the Honourable Mr. A. N. (Minister of Education) Transkeian Education Amendment ...... Second Reading Committee Stage Policy Speech ... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... Supply Vote 3

...... ......

230 230

......

310 322

...... ......

...... 133-135 135-140

......

.....

MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G.M.M. (Minister of Justice) . ...... Policy Speech ...

Supply Vote 2 Transkeian Prisons Second Reading Committee Stage

97 115 92-96 ...... 115-119 121-130, 132-133

218, 221 239

334 341 ...... ...... ...... ...... 141-143 143-150, 151-154, 154-158

SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S. N. (Minister of the Interior) Transkeian Apprenticeship Second Reading Committee Stage ...... Transkeian Government Service Pensions Amendment Second Reading ...... ...... Committee Stage ...... Policy Speech ... Supply Vote 4

321 335 303 335 158-160 160-163, 165-173 ......

MABANDLA, the Honourable Mr. Z. M. (Minister of Agriculture and Forestry) Transkeian Forest Amendment 293 Second Reading Committee Stage 313 ...... Transkeian Marketing 223, 230 Second Reading Committee Stage 246 ...... ...... 174-178 Policy Speech ... 178-183, 184-188, 190-191 Supply Vote 5 NDABANKULU, the Honourable Chief G. S. (Minister of Roads and Works). Transkeian Motor Carrier Transportation Amendment Second Reading ...... Committee Stage Policy Speech ... Supply Vote 6 Transkeian Road Traffic Amendment Second Reading Committee Stage

293 304 191-193 193-196, 197-204

217 232

MOSHESH, the Honourable Chief J. D. (Minister of Health) . 204-206 206-217

Policy Speech Supply Vote 7

INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH DURING THE 1974 SESSION

Motion No.

Subject Matter

1

Extension of jurisdiction of two Chieftainships, Lusikisiki District ......

2357

Request for Independence No Confidence ......

5

Revision of Contract Labour System Transfer of all Police Stations to Transkeian Department of Justice

10 11 12

Repeal of Proclamation R400 Abolition of beer halls Provision of two Chambers in the Legislative Assembly ....

OEN

2

ME92

14 17 19 21 24 385

36 37

Suggested programme for education in the Transkei Transfer of all towns to the Transkeian Government ...... ...... ...... Zoning of certain towns completely Black Non-payment of compensation for recent unnecessary improvements to properties in Black-zoned areas Transfer of certain tribal authority roads to Government Creation of a new chieftainship, Libode district Expropriation of church-controlled hostels and classrooms Creation of three new chieftainships, Port St. Johns dist. Congratulations for funeral arrangements for the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto ...... ...... ......

Pages

16 69, 78, 88 18, 29, 41 , 48, 50 267, 274 249

257, 262, 267 275, 282 106, 111 , 233, 245, 248, 255 328, 341 284, 294 297, 304 314 308 151 323 309 339

TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS AT THE FIRST SITTING OF THE THIRD TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ELECTING OFFICE-BEARERS The session opened in the Transkei Legislative Assembly Chamber, Umtata, at 10.30 a.m. on MONDAY, 19th NOVEMBER, 1973 with the Secretary, Mr W. Z. Lusu, in the Chair. Prayers were read. The Acting Chairman explained the purpose of the convocation of the Assembly. The roll was called. MEMBERS OF TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY BIZANA: Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela BUTTERWORTH : Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Silas Walker Manga

MOUNT FLETCHER : Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Kolisile Timothy Mbobo MOUNT FRERE: Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Colley Dabula Mr. Mdunyelwa Nicholas Makaula MQANDULI : Acting Chief Sicitana Candulwandle Dalasile Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana NGQELENI : Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Kaizer Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela

ELLIOTDALE: Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Popo Pakamile ENGCOBO: Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Gadini Gordon Kutu Mr Sipiwo Alfred Xobololo FLAGSTAFF : Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Chief George Sibidla Ndabankulu IDUTYWA: Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Msopana Bonkolo Mr. Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr. Walton Langalibalele Sipuka KENTANI : Chief Devilliers Tsotso Mapassa Chief Gwadana Merriman Dondashe Mr. Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni

NQAMAKWE : Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Mbele Eleven Dekeda PORT ST. JOHNS: Mr. Bokololo Phillip Vapi QUMBU: Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Vacant Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta ST. MARKS: Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief George Bangilizwe Siyabalala Acting Chief Mbuzo Ngangomhlaba Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch Ka-Tshunungwa TABANKULU: Chief Zwelabantu Diko Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Dorrington Ndamase TSOLO : Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika TSOMO: Chief Wiseman Gontsana Nkwenkwezi Mr. Ntsikelelo Armstrong Jonas

LIBODE: Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata LUSIKISIKI: Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau MATATIELE : Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Matanzima Magadla Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Mafika Pascoe Ludidi Mr. Dalindyebo John Ndleleni MOUNT AYLIFF : Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse 1

UMTATA: Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo 'Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Temba Mhlabunzima Makaula UMZIMKULU Chief Solomon Tobigunya Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Vacant Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Vacant Vacant WILLOWVALE: Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Khalakulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile 'Mr. Gebane Norman Sipunzi XALANGA: Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Acting Chief Xego Sami Moni Mr. Mxosana Jackson Sigwela The following Members were absent: (i) Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana (ii) Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula (iii) Chief Frank Zibi and (iv) Chief Marshall Lehana (v) Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chiefs' Representatives : 1. Mr. E. A. Pinyana 2. Mr. L. Maninjwa 3. Mr. S. P. Ngculu 4. Mr. E. G. Sihele 5. Mr. A. D. Joyi

call these members and any other members who have found it difficult to observe time. The following members took the oath : Chief Mdanjelwa Mirara Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Dumezweni Luis Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe ACTING CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chief Justice, I wish to express the gratitude of the members of this Legislative Assembly for putting your services at their disposal and thereby gracing this historic occasion with your presence. The members of this House are not unmindful of the sacrifice you must have made in order to be with us this morning. I now have the honour to excuse you, Sir, from this meeting of members of the Legislative Assembly. The Chief Justice left the Chamber. ACTING CHAIRMAN : Will a Minister move that strangers be excluded from the gallery. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I beg to move that all people not members of this House as constituted should vacate the Chamber so that the voting may be strictly secret. As soon as the voting for Chief Minister has been completed and while the counting of the votes is taking place, they should be allowed in so that they should be in a position to listen to the customary speech of the Chief Minister. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move again that Rule 8(1 ) of the rules of this House should be waived in order that you prepare forms for nomination instead of having nominations made by word of mouth. These forms provide for the proposer and seconder, and also for the person nominated. I also move that Rule 8(3)(i) be waived in order to allow members who arrived late to vote. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUGWA: I second. Agreed to.

SWEARING IN OF MEMBERS OF LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

ACTING CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon, members, I shall now conduct the Chief Justice of the Transkei into this Chamber for the purpose of taking from the members here present the oath prescribed by section 33 of the Transkei Constitution Act. Members are requested to submit to the oath according to the Regional Authority areas which they represent and when I call the names of members of a particular Regional Authority area, all the members of that area should come to the table without delay. Members are further requested to stand up when the Chief Justice enters, and also when he leaves this Chamber, as an act of courtesy .

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN ACTING CHAIRMAN : Hon. members

of

the

House, the House will now proceed with the election of the Chairman. Members have been supplied with a programme in which the procedure to be followed is outlined, but nomination forms may be obtained from the table. I shall now call for nominations. Hon. members, the name of Mr Saul Kolisile Ndzumo, member for Lusikisiki, has been proposed and seconded. There are apparently no further nominations and I therefore declare Mr S. K. Ndzumo the duly-elected Chairman of this House. The Sergeant-atArms will lead the newly-elected Chairman to the table, duly escorted by the proposer and seconder. The Chairman took the Chair.

The Chief Justice was escorted into the Chamber. ACTING CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, we are greatly honoured today in having with us the Chief Justice of the High Court of the Transkei, the Honourable Mr. Justice Munnik, who has agreed to administer the oath to members of the Assembly. On behalf of this Assembly I wish to extend a warm welcome to you, Sir. I now have great pleasure in asking you to administer the oath to members of this Assembly.

CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon, members of the House, before we proceed I should like to express my gratitude to this House for having elected me as Chairman. I only hope that God will assist me in dealing with the matters of this House impartially. I am quite aware of the responsibility laid upon me.

The members present took the oath before the Chief Justice.

ACTING CHAIRMAN : I notice that one or more hon. members slipped in after the roll had been called, notwithstanding the humble request of the Secretary of this Department to observe the time-table on this imporant day. I will now request these late-comers to come and take the oath as arranged, but would also refer the attention of this House to Rule 8(3)(i) of the Rules of Procedure of this House in terms of which a member who arrives after the names of the members have been called shall not be entitled to vote. I shall now

ELECTION OF DEPUTY CHAIRMAN CHAIRMAN : I shall now call for nominations for Deputy Chairman. The same procedure that has been followed for the election of Chairman shall be followed for the election of a Deputy Chairman. Nomination forms may be obtained from the Secretary by anyone who requires to nominate a Deputy Chairman. I shall now call for proposals.

2

to convey my sincere thanks to the Transkeian citizens who, through the supporters of the Transkeian National Independence Party in this House, have shown implicit faith and confidence in me by electing me to the leadership post of the Transkeian Government a third time in succession. I am mindful of the responsibilities attached to this post and wish to assure this House that I will do everything within the scope of my duties to serve the Transkeian citizens to the best of my ability. My Government has always had a programme for the development of the Territory until it reaches the independence stage. This involves social, economic and political development. I am convinced that the stage of declaring the Transkei an independent state has now come, depending on the fulfilment of certain important factors which have been mentioned by me from time to time.

Hon. members, the name of Mr Tembekile Enoch ka-Tsunungwa has been put forward as Deputy Chairman of this House. He has been proposed and seconded and is accordingly declared the Deputy Chairman of the House. ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the House will now proceed with the election of the Chief Minister, and before doing so I shall ask the Secretary to read section 13 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963). The Secretary read section 13 of the Transkei Constitution Act. CHAIRMAN : Hon, members, I would like to tell the members that prescribed forms for nomination may be obtained from the Secretary by anybody who requires one and has not obtained one. I shall now call for proposals. Hon. members, these are the nominations for the election of the Chief Minister of the Transkei :

I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate all the members of this House for their success in the last elections and to convey my highest felicitations to them. I particularly congratulate the Leader of the Oppoition for his success and wish he will give the same contribution he has given in the past to the debates in this House on a very high note. He should, however, take cognisance of the fact that the policy which has given him the platform to speak so eloquently and so freely has come to stay as is evidenced by the recognition it has been given by the majority of the Transkeian citizens and South Africa generally. I wish to assure the Republican Government and our Homeland Governments in South Africa that the friendly relations which characterised our association as South Africans will be maintained.

(1) Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima, member for St. St. Mark's. (2) Knowledge Mzimkulu Guzana, member for Mqanduli . (3) Curnick Mvelase Ndamse, member for Mount Ayliff. If there are no further nominations the House will adjourn for a few minutes while the Secretary is preparing ballot papers. As soon as the bell rings everybody will have to come in. All the members should approach the Secretary and take a book of rules before going out. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.

World opinion, negative as it is to South Africa, should stimulate our solidarity as South Africans of all races . Our economic interdependence and traditional respect for one another's way of life, should inevitably compel us to stand together in the midst of adversities.

AFTERNOON SESSION

The Assembly resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, before we proceed I would like to inform the House that for those members who are unable to read or sign their names there will be two persons who will take an oath of secrecy and who will assist them. In the process of voting each member will come forward, take the ballot paper from the Secretary and proceed to the ballot box, and I desire those two people to come forward for the purpose of taking the oath of secrecy. The ballot for the election of Chief Minister took place. CHAIRMAN: Hon, members, I shall now call upon the Secretary to count the votes cast. The nominees, if they wish, may come forward to watch the count or appoint people on their behalf to do so.

With those few words, Mr Chairman, I thank you. ANNOUNCEMENT OF CABINET CHIEF MINISTER : My Cabinet, appointed in terms of section 12(2) of the Transkeian Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, is as follows:Paramount Chief K, D. Matanzima, B.A. Attorney's Admission, Chief Minister of the Transkei, will be Minister of Finance. Justice : Chief G. M. Matanzima, B.Sc., Attorney's Admission. Education: Mr A. N. Jonas, B.A., U.E.D.

The votes were counted in the presence of three members of the Assembly. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the results are as follows: 10 votes Mr C. M. Ndamse · 11 votes Mr K. M. Guzana · 78 votes Paramount Chief K. D. Matanzima There are no spoilt papers . Hon. members of the House, I now declare Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima as the duly-elected Chief Minister of the Transkei. I shall now call upon him to come to the table to make and subscribe to the oath prescribed by section 18 of the Transkei Constitution Act. The Chief Minister took the oath before the Chairman of the House. CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the Hon. the Chief Minister to deliver his speech. CHIEF MINISTER: I have the honour and respect

Interior: Miss S. N. Sigcau, B.A. , U.E.D. Agriculture and Forestry: Mr Z. M. Mabandla, Diploma in Agriculture. Roads and Works : Chief G. S. Ndabankulu, B.A., U.E.D. Health: Chief J. D. Moshesh, Matric, Healdtown Institution. The Assembly adjourned until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21st November 1973. WEDNESDAY, 21st NOVEMBER, 1973 Prayers were read. The Secretary read the Government Notice convoking the Assembly.

ADMINISTRATION OF OATH The Six Cabinet Ministers took the oath before the Chairman of the House. 3

OPENING ADDRESS BY THE HON. M. VILJOEN, M.P., MINISTER OF LABOUR AND OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS

amongst the various population groups within its area of jurisdiction. In so far as many people were concerned, this development took place as if it were not of any significant importance. I would, however, like to emphasise that this was an occurrence of unique significance to not only the Transkei but to the Republic as a whole. A high court of this nature is an institution of considerable importance. I am convinced that there will never be any cause for doubt as to the absolute impartiality of the Transkeian High Court in its endeavours to ensure that justice is carried out. Although much remains to be done in regard to the economical development of the Transkei, nevertheless appreciable progress has been made. In the field of commerce it can be mentioned that approximately 440 trading stations in the Transkei which were previously in the hands of Whites are now owned by Transkeian citizens. In so far as the establishment of industries is concerned there is admittedly a dire need for an acceleration of the tempo of industrialisation, but it must be borne in mind that there are numerous factors which industrialists have to take into consideration before establishing a factory and the authorities cannot force industrialists to establish factories at specific places. Nevertheless, the etablishment of industries in the Transkei has been boosted by the agency system under which, up to 15 September 1973, 16 contracts for the establishment of factories have been entered into involving a total investment of R13 575 540 and envisaged employment of 2681 Transkeian citizens. It may be mentioned that an increase in agricultural and pastoral production in the Transkei will do much to stimulate industrial development in the territory. In this regard the Xhosa Development Corporation in collaboration with your Department of Agriculture and Forestry is doing valuable work. This is also an opportune moment to convey the appreciation of the Republican Government to all those Republican officials allocated to the Transkeian Government and whose dedicated services have contributed so much towards the development of the Transkei in all spheres during the past ten years. More and more Transkeian citizens are being employed in your Public Service as evidenced by the fact that the percentage of Republican officials allocated to the Transkei dropped from 18,6 per cent in 1963 to 7,2 per cent of the total establishment as at the end of 1972. This is a healthy trend in the growth of a nation when it takes place on a systematic and well planned basis, as is the case in the Transkei. Overhasty action in regard to the replacement of Republican officials on loan can lead to the disruption of the administrative machinery. In regard to the Departments of the Republican Government that are still operating independently in the Transkei, I know that they all are endeavouring to employ as many Transkeian citizens as possible in their administration here in the Transkei. I have two Departments under my control that are involved here, namely, Labour and also Posts and Telegraphs. As you are naturally aware, my Department of Labour is not concerned with the recruitment and placing of your citizens in employment in the White area of the Republic of South Africa. My Department is, however directly concerned with labour relations between employers and employees. I think it is appropriate that I say a few words in this regard. With the attainment of self-government in 1963 your Government was vested with legislative powers in

Mr Chairman and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly. I am very honoured to be present here today to open this First Session of the Transkei's Third Legislative Assembly on behalf of the State President. I would also like to take advantage of this opportunity to congratulate those members who have taken their seats in this Assembly Chamber for the first time. I have no doubt that your presence here will contribute to the quality of the debates in this Chamber. It is worthy of note that this is the first time that your Chief Minister has had the opportunity of exercising the authority conferred upon him by an amendment to your Constitution Act whereby he is given the sole right to constitute his own Cabinet. This is a sound procedure that is followed by the most modern democratic nations. I would also like to congratulate the Chief Minister on his election and the other Ministers on their appointment as such and to wish them strength and God's blessing in the arduous task that faces them. I have no doubt that you have in your Cabinet persons who will not only be equal to their great and responsible tasks but will uphold the dignity of this Assembly and that of your people. I know that they, as your leaders, will not place their own interests first, but those of your territory and its people. I would also like to congratulate the Chairman and the Deputy Chairman on their election to these important offices in this Assembly. The Chairman has a most important and responsible task to perform in this House as so much depends on his decisions . It is therefore essential that not only he and the Deputy Chairman, but also the other members of the Assembly, make a thorough study of the Rules of Procedure of the Legislative Assembly. This will contribute greatly to the orderly conduct of proceedings in this House and in so doing enhance the image of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly in the eyes of the outside world. It is now more than ten years ago since self-government was conferred on the Transkei and we can look back on a period of progress in all spheres. Notwithstanding the fact that self-governing status has been conferred on a number of other Bantu national units, in the constitutional field the Transkei is still the furthest advanced. With effect from the first of April this year your Government took over the responsibility for all health matters in the Transkei which necessitated the appointment of an additional Cabinet Minister and the establishment of an additional department - the Department of Health. To cater for the health requirements of the population of the Transkei is no mean task. A further very important milestone in the constitutional development of the Transkei was reached recently with the establishment of a High Court for the Transkei in terms of your Constitution Act, and also as a consequence, the establishment of a separate Attorney-General's office, Master's Office and office of Registrar of Deeds. This Court is in all respects a high court with only the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa having superior jurisdiction. The High Court has jurisdiction in all matters and over all races in its area of jurisdiction and is comparable to a Provincial Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa. Furthermore, the Court has been especially empowered to take cognisance of the law and customs that apply

4

respect of, amongst others, all Labour matters excluding those relating to Unemployment Insurance and Workmen's Compensation. The provision of Unemployment Insurance and Workmen's Compensation benefits is not possible unless adequate funds therefor are available. It was consequently considered to be in the best interests of citizens of the Transkei that they should be able to continue to participate in the Unemployment Insurance and Accident Funds administered by the Government of the Republic until such time as my Government's assistance in this regard is no longer required. When that time arrives, your Legislative Assembly can be empowered to make laws in regard to all labour matters. It is my Government's policy that all workers should be enabled to earn a decent living and great strides have recently been made towards the achievement of this objective. The chief aim of the Republic's labour policy is to lay down minimum wages and conditions of employment so as to ensure industrial peace, to safeguard the general welfare and safety of workers and to provide for the training of employees. But to train workers, a nucleus of trained personnel is an essential prerequisite. The Transkei is in the fortunate position that it is able to draw on the services of a large number of its citizens to make up that nucleus. I am informed that approximately 63 000 men and women are at present gainfully employed within the borders of the Transkei while over 400 000 of its inhabitants are employed in various occupations and industries in the Republic. ' Måny of the latter workers have attained skills which could be of considerable advantage to their homeland in the early stages of its development. Businessmen will show a greater preparedness to expand their activities to the Transkei and investors will be encouraged to participate in your country's development if they can be assured that their efforts will be backed up by an adequately trained labour force. But no matter how well trained an employee may be, he is unable to realise his full potential unless he is happy and contented in his work. To achieve this, there should be constant communication between labour and management. It is because my Government realises the necessity for fruitful communication between employers and their workers that it recently passed legislation providing for the establishment of more effective channels of communication and contact between employers and their employees. This legislation has introduced far-reaching changes and improvements for the Black workers and I am confident that if utilised positively and to its fullest possible extent, it will go a long way towards ensuring justice and reasonable wages for the workers. I wish therefore to appeal to your Government to encourage Transkeian citizens in the Republic to use this machinery for the betterment of their conditions of service and for the removal of any grievances or uncertainties they may have in relation to their employment. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs has for some considerable time been examining the steps that must inevitably precede the handing over of the Post Office's functions to the Transkeian authorities. Of the 36 post offices currently serving the Transkei, 32 have already been placed under the control of Xhosa postmasters and are staffed by Transkeian citizens. The remaining offices will be placed under the control of your own people as soon as their training has reached a stage where they are sufficiently proficient to under-

take all the phases of the work involved. Out of a total of 429 posts in Transkeian Post Offices, 309 are filled by Xhosas. After careful consideration it has been decided to establish a Sub-Regional office in Umtata under the control of the Regional Director of Posts and Telegraphs in Port Elizabeth. It is the intention that the Postmaster of Umtata will be in charge of the proposed office. The Department envisages the training of Transkeian citizens to also take over these administrative functions, from Whites as soon as feasible. This proposed Sub-Regional office is intended to be the forerunner of the Headquarters for the Transkeian Department of Posts and Telecommunications when such a service can be introduced. As you know, the Department is presently engaged in the training of Telephone Electricians at Umtata. They are due to complete their course during 1974. As a further step arrangements are in hand for the training of a number of your people as technicians. Unfortunately the theoretical training of these people cannot be undertaken at Umtata because the Technical College here does not have the necessary facilities and the training will initially have to be done at the Mmadikoti College in the Lebowa area. The students will, however, receive their field training in the Transkei. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs will continue unabated in its efforts to prepare your people for the ultimate take over of the Post Office and will be prepared thereafter to render such specialised assistance as may be required on a secondment basis. The following facts are furnished to indicate the expansion that has taken place in the Transkei in the telecommunications field during the past 10 years : As at 31 March 1963, that is two months prior to the Transkei becoming a self-governing territory there were 3 607 telephone services in the area. Up to and including 31 March 1973 this figure had grown to 6 229 an increase of 73 %. There are only about 90 deferred applications on hand at present. The existing planning makes provision for the automation of the Umtata exchange by about june 1976. The automatic exchange, which will make provision for 2600 lines, will cost approximately R481 000 while the cost of the trunk exchange, which will be installed on contract, will be in the region of R736 000. Trunk-line works amounting to more than R361-000 will be undertaken in the Transkei in the course of the next two years. The most important of these will be the addition of extra lines on the following routes : Butterworth - Umtata R135 000 Butterworth ― Komgha R20 000 R14 000 Tsolo ― Maclear 'More than R200 000 will be spent on the reconstruction of existing routes and on other minor works. I convey to you the greetings and good wishes of the Republican Government and trust that you will always look upon it as a friend who desires to assist you in word and deed. I pray that God in His Wisdom will guide you in your deliberations and sustain your Ministers in their exacting task. On behalf of the State President of the Republic of South Africa I now declare this First Session of the Third Transkeian Legislation Assembly duly opened. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have a short bill to put to this House this afternoon, but I would crave your indulgence to allow me

5

CHAIRMAN: It has been moved and seconded. Does the House agree?

just to move the preliminary requirements to this short bill. It is a financial bill, Sir. I will just move the first reading and the second reading will be this afternoon, because the Cabinet has to go to the CommissionerGeneral's Office. CHAIRMAN : Carry on. CHIEF MINISTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to advise the House that it has become customary and necessary, as a matter of urgency, to introduce during this session an Additional Appropriation Bill to provide for expenditure from the Transkeian Revenue Fund over and above that appropriated in the Transkeian Appropriation Act, 1973 (Act No. 1 of 1973) . The measure is purely financial and not controversial. It is the Government's wish, therefore that all stages of the passage of the bill be disposed of this afternoon. To this end, Mr Chairman, I move that in terms of the proviso to Standing Rule 165 (1), you adjudge the suspension of certain standing rules regarding financial measures to be a case of urgent necessity and that the Assembly thereafter consent to the suspension of the standing rules relating to the giving of notice, intervals between the various readings, time allotted to the second reading debate and policy speeches by hon. Ministers when the Assembly is in committee of supply.

Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, we have disposed of the first reading of the Additional Appropriation Bill, and I shall now ask the hon. the Chief Minister to proceed with the second reading. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of the request for the suspension of the rules was that I must proceed with the second reading, the committee stage and the third reading of the bill, and finish it within an hour's time, if possible. Unless there are lunatics amongst us who cannot appreciate simple things which can even be understood by a donkey . MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: You must withdraw that word. CHIEF MINISTER: I will now proceed with the second reading of the bill. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: SECOND READING CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, since this is the first occasion on which the Assembly has had to consider an Additional Appropriation Bill it is as well to explain briefly the nature and purpose of the measure. In this, I am indebted to that authoritative work "Parliamentary Procedure” by Kilpin from page 52 of which I now quote :"Additional Appropriation Bills no matter how carefully the Estimates of Expenditure may have been prepared, the Government . almost invariably find(s) after the Appropriation Bill (has) been passed . that they require more money under some Votes This necessitates 'Additional' Estimates being presented during the next session. As they have to be passed before the financial year expires they are presented early in the session. The procedure then followed is similar to that on the main estimates. That is to say they are referred to a ... Committee of Supply. The debates which take place at the various stages are, however, far more restricted than on the main estimates as discussion is confined to the reasons for the increase of the Votes contained in the estimates and should not re-open the question of policy involved in the original grant . . .” The two Votes for which additional money must in this instance be appropriated are numbers 1 (Chief Minister and Finance : R28 000) and 4 (Interior: R788 000). In the case of Vote 1 the anticipated higher cost of the forthcoming tenth anniversary celebrations of the granting of self-government to the Transkei accounts for R11 000 of the required R28 000 while the remaining R17 000 will be applied to higher salaries for Hon. members. Higher-than orginally expected revenue collections will cover the additional appropriation. In the case of Vote 4 the whole additional appropriation is needed to match, in the Transkei, increased social benefits applicable in the Republic as from the 1st October 1973. Details of these increases will, if necessary, be furnished by the Hon. the Minister of the Interior in Committee of Supply. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I wish to assure the House that I am satisfied the additional appropriations are necessary for the due performance of the services indicated.

MINSTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER : Having secured the desired suspension of the relevant standing rules, I now lay upon the table my recommendation of the Additional Appropriation Bill, 1973, in the form of a written message as required in terms of Standing Rule 128(b), together with the Estimates of Additonal Expenditure and a certified copy of the Transkeian Additional Appropriation Bill, 1973. I now movve that the bill be read a first time. ' MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. NOTICE OF MOTION MINISTER OF JUSTICE gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to amend the Transkeian Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, appropriately at its earliest convenience to enable the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to pass legislation for the maintenance of law and order and the combating of subversion.” SUSPENSION OF STANDING RULES MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I also move, in terms of Rule 165(1 ), the suspension of the standing rules of this House to enable me to introduce this motion when time permits during this present session. I move, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER : I second. MR . K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, it would appear that every matter has to be expedited today, but if we seek to expedite matters we must also ensure that we are fully aware of what is going to happen. We have had a notice of motion and a suspension of the rules relating to that motion, and I only hope that when we come back after the adjournment we shall have this motion available to the members of the House so that they can speak appropriately to it.

I now move that the bill be read a second time.

6

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I suppose the writer Kilpin had to concede that all Governments make mistakes in their estimates, and in order to cover up those mistakes he has made this observation that Governments always find they are invariably short of funds and have to bring in an Additional Appropriation Bill. It is, however, a type of procedure which certainly assists a government which has not been able to estimate its expenditure correctly and, as limitation on the question of policy, is one that saves the Government from a disguised motion of no confidence in the Government.(Laughter) May I say that this House welcomes the indication by the Government that the cost of living has gone up tremendously, even for members of the Legislative Assembly. During the last sitting of the second Legislative Assembly there were ominous rumblings from this House on the question of salaries of members of this House, and when I look at the amount of R17 000 I do feel this is a drop in the ocean, regard being had to the high cost of living, what with petrol having gone up and increases in various other commodities, far exceeding this pittance of R17 000. Looking at the amount, all the hon. members will get will be in the region of R14 or R15 a month extra.

and when we compare this with the previous increases which were made during the last ten years, of R200 each time, I think the hon. members ought to appreciate the fact that my financial control of the State moneys is a sound one. Each member will get R30 to R33 increase per month, not R14 or R15. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, when I made these increases I was responding to the motion brought before this House during the last session, and nobody is to dictate to me how to go about the finances of the Transkei. If other governments have a lot of money to spend, it is not for me to emulate them. I am responsible very much to the needs of the people, rather than the salaries of members of the Legislative Assembly. Motion put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sit in committee of supply. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second,

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE VOTE 1: CHIEF MINISTER AND FINANCE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, Hon. Paramount Chiefs and Hon. members, as indicated during my remarks at the second reading stage, the services of my departement require the appropriation of a further R28 000 derived from higher revenue collections. R11 000 of this is to be devoted to the 10th anniversary celebrations later this year to enable the festivities to be conducted more on a district than as was orginally contemplated on a regional level. The Cabinet discussed the matter in depth and concluded that regionally organised celebrations tended to be too remote from the local scene to have the proper impact. Whilst duplication of celebrations at more points will impart the desired greater intimacy it will obviously raise the costs. I am satisfied that for the celebrations to achieve the desired effect these extra costs are more

An additional cipher after the three ciphers would have made the figure more presentable. What is a nought, after all, when everything is taken into account? (Laughter) I am happy to note that the Government realises that our social benefits are very low indeed. At best the amount given in respect of each individual who is a beneficiary is so small that they must constantly ask for more. I suppose the Government will say that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all, but this is not even half a loaf it is an eighth of a loaf and I do feel that these people have a very hard row to hoe in order to keep alive and maintain existence. This side of the House will continue to push this Government into good efforts and we therefore support the bill. But that is not enough.

than justified.

MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am pleased to learn that you are now getting educated into matters. You are being taught by babies what to do. They have, in fact, already taught you what to do. Last session, it will be recalled, I had a certain question as to whether increments would be granted to members of this House, although they are not worth it as fas as the electorate is concerned . Even the salaries of the chiefs should have been raised to a certain level. CHIEF MINISTER: Come to the point. MR. MGUDLWA: I wish to remark that we have got documents before us. I have always introduced motions that these pensions should be raised, but the Business Committee has aways ignored my motions. Why should such a motion not be accepted by this House whenever I have raised it? These pensioners who are being paid a small pension should have their pensions increased. I am pleased to see this Government is now coming to its senses.

Details of the increased salaries payable to Hon. members as from 24th October, 1973 are as follows:Chairman Up by R600 Now R2 600 p.a. - Up by R300 Now R2 000 p.a. Deputy Chairman Leader of the Up by R400 Now R2 400 p.a. Opposition Members Up by R400 Now R1 600 p.a. This accounts for the remaining R17 000 to be ap-

propriated. The salaries of the following have also been raised as from 24th October, 1973:Chief Minister ... Up R800 Now totals R8 000 p.m. Paramount Chiefs Up R800 Now totals R7 000 p.a. ... Up R500 Now totals R6 500 p.a. Ministers Chairman P. S. Commission Up R600 Now totals R2 600 p.a. Members : P. S. C. Up R400 Now totals R1 600 p.a. Urban Represensentative ... ... Up R1 000 Now totals R4 000 p.a. Asst. Represen... ... Up R1 100 Now totals R3 500 p.a. sentative The latter increases will be defrayed from savings and need not therefore, be specially appropriated and are mentioned for informative purposes only. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I move Clause 1 of the bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, we have heard

CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for the remarks he has made, but I hope nobody listened to the man who has come to the wrong house. He should have been in the other house near Queenstown. (Laughter) However, I wish to point out there is no mistake here to cover up. It is merely to vote funds for services not previously contemplated. The increase for the members is R400,

7

of law and order and the combating of subversion." Mr. Chairman, the Government of the Transkei has now been in existence for ten years, a period which in the life of man is a long time, but in the life of a nation is but a fleeting moment. Yet in those ten years we the Transkeian people, have been able to prove over and over again to the world in general and the Transkei in particular, and even to those persons who were sceptical of our success, that we are capable by the exercise of our democratic rights of electing and forming a government which is not only efficient, but also effective. In comparison with other countries in Africa, the Government of the Transkei is stable, strong enduring and responsible. We can therefore say without hesitation or reservation that we have proved worthy of the trust placed in us by the legislature of the Republic of South Africa when it enacted the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963. If we examine the preamble to that Act to see once again the aims and objects of that measure, we can say with conviction and with satisfaction that the Transkei has a well-organized Government which maintains law and order and ensures justice to all; which promotes the material and spiritual well-being of its citzens; which protects and develops their culture and preserves the ideals of religon, civilization and democracy. We are such a Government and we have done and are doing these things. After all, the hallmark of a responsible and well-organized government is its ability to maintain law and order. Only if it can maintain law and order can there be peace, order and good government. Yet strangely enough, there is no provision in the Transkeian Constitution Act whereby we may make laws for the maintenance of law and order. We have in our police force, in our chiefs and headmen and in our other peace officers the instrument whereby peace may be maintained, but we cannot make any laws for the maintenance of peace. Because of this inadequacy in our Constitution, the existing laws are of little assistance to us. We cannot administer those laws because our powers of adminitration are confined to those matters for which we can make laws. This is a serious discrepancy and one which is fraught with danger for us all. The maintenance of peace and order often demands immediate and decisive action, Consultation with the central Government takes time and, as the Eastern Pondoland and Poqo disturbances proved to us, delay can lead to death and destruction. We must be in a position to act immediately, not only with our own instruments but also with our own laws. I think here particularly of subversion, of underground activities directed against the safety and security of the Transkei itself. Why must we, a well-ordered, strong and responsible Government have to make representations to the Republican Government to deal with matters which concern the Transkei when we are prepared to deal with these matters ourselves ? The disturbers of peace, the instigators of unrest and subversion are no respecters of persons. Strife and disorder, whether brought about openly or by underground activities, affect all of us. There can therefore be no disagreement amongest us about this matter. The safety of the State is priority No. 1 for any responsible government. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, Hear. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I therefore ask that this House approve this motion and I move accordingly. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, living in South Africa as we do, and know-

all the good which has been done by the hon. the Chief Minister, but it woul appear that chiefs and headmen have been forgotten. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the salaries of the members of the Assembly were not increased last year when this House increased the salaries of chiefs and headmen. I think the hon, member should look up his Hansard. CHIEF JOZANA: I have read the Hansard but the Ministers' salaries were increased. CHIEF MINISTER: I think the House should turn to page 4 of the bill. My remarks refer to Vote 1 and I will leave Vote 4 to the hon, the Minister of the Interior to deal with. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr, Chairman and hon. members, all I can do is just to mention the various figures, and that is all. The pensions paid to beneficiaries have now been increased to a maximum of R96 per annum. This increase became effective on 1st October, 1973, and the additional amount to be appropriated will be allocated as follows :- R538 900 Old Age Pensions - R19 940 Blind Pensions - R223 200 Disability Pensions -R5 960 Other grants - R788 000 TOTAL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the hon. Minister has made here remarks and I will now give this opportunity to comments from any member of the House, but they must be appropriate to the point. MR. P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we are thankful for the little which has been added to the pensions because these people are destitute. However, this is not enough, because people still require more money. The request I want to place in this House is that these people should be paid monthly because with the present sytem it is a long time before these people are paid and they suffer deprivation. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, we are not considering your motion now. We want comments on what has been said by the hon. Minister. Are there any comments from the hon. members? As there are no further comments I shall now put it to the House to consider the other clauses. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clause 3 put and agreed to. Clause 4 put and agreed to. The whole bill put and agreed to. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Additional Appropriation Bill has been approved by the House without amendment. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: THIRD READING CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I now move that the bill be read a third time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. MOTION TO AMEND TRANSKEIAN CONSTITUTION ACT MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move:That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to amend the Transkeian Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, appropriately at its earliest convenience to enable the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to pass legislation for the maintenance

8

ing what usually happens when certain powers are exercised, one has to make critical comment when one is faced with a motion such as we have here. But before doing so, let me just make one or two comments à propos of this observation. Nobody in his right mind would ever encourage subversion; nobody in his right mind would encourage anything which disturbs law and order. One of the main foundations of a well-ordered society is that emergencies which threaten the existence of that society should be combated quickly and expeditiously. The other observation is this - that the motion as it stands is very vague and not precise. We ask the Republican Government to do something to the Transkei Constitution Act. It may do it in whatever way it likes, and whatever way it pleases, and this is giving them carte blanche to do anything they like in the way of amending the Act. My third observation is this - that it appears that this motion merely seeks an amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act which will be an enabling amendment. Those are matters on which I am sure we cannot differ, but I can promise the Government that when it does exercise the powers that will be made available to it, then we shall look at them more closely, for there is the danger that political parties in power confuse their existence as a political party with the State and the result is that the State now is the political party in power and any law passed seeks to entrench the party in power, rather than to protect the State as such; and disorder may well be confused with genuine political opposition and vice versa. Then I would like to make this observation that we should have a clear understanding as to what we mean by "law and order". Do we agree that maintenance of law and order does not neccessarily mean that we all agree, but rather that we can agree to disagree? So we have a situation where we do not support a man's view but we will certainly defend his right to express that dissentient view. The hon. the Minister of Justice did wax eloquent on the stability and security of our Govvernment and qualified that by saying that this is a democratic government. I think we can join issue on that point for the simple reason that this House characteristically, on Monday, when members were sworn in, had these men called to the front and it was "Chief So-and-so, Chief So-and-so" four or five times, and then “ Mr. So-and-so", and again "Chief So-and-so" (Laughter) all nominated members; and we ask the question : Do we have the correct interpretation of the word “democracy"? Let us be careful not to take unto us powers which may entrench a government or an assembly which is wholly undemocratic, with a view to securing our position in that state where our legislative bodies are not democratic. It is my hope that when this power has been granted to this Assembly we shall be objective in determining what is subversion; what we mean when we say a situation is threatening the security of the State. And so I go on to say that when we ask for these enabling amendments to the Transkei Constitution Act we might even consider at this stage a Bill of Rights to secure the individual in his right to criticise, the right to dissent, the right to object. At the present moment we only see but the tail of this reptile and the tail cannot be classified as to whether it belongs to a venomous snake or a lizard. (Laughter) It is only when it turns round when we will see it, ugly and dangerous and venomous, and I must say this side of the House will then seek to show its resistance wholly to anything which curtails the rights of the individual

under a plausible argument that the security of the State is threatened. Those are my comments on the matter. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, while thanking the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for his constructive remarks, I wish to reply to some of them as follows : Ex facie, the motion might seem to be vague. That is the way it should be when we are asking for an enabling legislation. When this motion has been accepted and forwarded to the Republican Government, and after they have consented to it they will then send the intended amendment to the Government of the Transkei to consider. MR. GUZANA: And will we get a chance to look over the shoulder of the Government to see it? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The Government was elected because the people had confidence in the Government, and therefore the Government will do its work as effeciently as it has to enable the people to have confidence in the Government. Whether this socalled snake whose body is hidden and the tail appearing, whether it be a snake or a lizard or whatever it may be, will only be known when · • MR. GUZANA: When it turns. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, no - when the time comes for the Transkei Government or the Transkei Legislative Assembly to make legislation because of a particular emergency. This motion is not directed against anybody, any organization or against anything. MR. GUZANA: No, we don't say so. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It will only be when something comes up which might be deemed to . . . MR. GUZANA: That is a frightening word. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: (I know you are going to ask who will deem.) . . . which may be deemed to threaten the maintenance of law and order in the Transkei. Fortunately, before legislation is made it will be introduced in this very House and will be canvassed sufficiently. Already there are people who are afraid. One of them said outside to me: Are you going to make a law to lock us up for ninety days? If that law is made when the enabling amendment has been made to the Constitution it will be made in this very House and it will be this House which will decide whether or not such a law should be made. With those comments, I move once again that this House adopts this motion. Motion put and carried. CHAIRMAN: So we take it the motion has been

passed unanimously. MR. GUZANA: Don't take anything for granted. The House said "Agreed - that is all. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, when the oaths were taken by the various members of the House on Monday, certain members were absent. One of these is present today ― Chief Ferguson Gwadiso - and I would move that at this stage you should administer the oath to this hon. member from Ngqeleni. Again, Sir, there are four other members of this House who are absent because of physical indisposition. These are:- Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana of Bizana; Chief W. S. Makaula of Mount Frere; Chief Frank Zibi of Mount Fletcher; and Chief Marshall Lehana of Mount Fletcher. I move that this House condones their absence and that they be paid their salaries as from 24th October, 1973, and that as soon as they are available they should take the oath before you, Sir, MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the motion which really relates

particularly to the chiefs. (Laughter) Now the chiefs will know where I stand.

TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 1974

Agreed to. Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso took the oath before the Chairman.

PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION: 1974 The second session of the third Transkeian Legislative Assembly opened in the Assembly Hall at 10.30 a.m. on

FAREWELL TO ASSISTANT CHIEF AUDITOR

WEDNESDAY, 13th MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The Government Notice convoking the Assembly was read.

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members we have on our establishment in the Chief Minister's Department (I refer to the Department of the ment of Finance) one of our seconded officials, Mr. Muller. He has served us in the Audit Section for about eight years and during that period he assisted this House when it dealt with financial matters, particularly when he was required to clarify matters to the Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Muller has been promoted to the Railway Audit Section of the Republican Government, to be stationed in Johannesburg. I am sure this House will agree with me that a word of thanks and appreciation should at this juncture be proposed to Mr. Muller and his family, as they are due to leave us. As head of the Department of Finance and as a person who has been responsible for the keeping of the accounts of your Legislative Assembly, I am sure that we are proud of the contribution which Mr. Muller has made to the Audit Section of my department. Mr. Muller will leave a big gap in my department, but I hope he has trained our young fellows and that they will ably succeed him in this position. On behalf of this House I wish to convey the thanks of the Transkei Legislative Assembly to Mr. Muller for his contribution to the success of the Transkeian Government during the last eight years which he has spent with us, and wish him God speed. Unfortunately, he is not in the House but he came to my office to say farewell.

The Chairman announced the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development of the Republic of South Africa. OPENING ADDRESS BY THE HONOURABLE A. J. RAUBENMEIMER M.P., DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT.

Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly:It is an honour for me to be present here today to open this Second Session of the Third Transkeian Legislative Assembly on behalf of the State President. In his address delivered on the occasion of the opening of the First Session of the Third Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Honourable M. Viljoen, Minister of Labour and of Posts and Telegraphs, gave a brief review of the progress that had been made over the past ten years in the constitutional development of the Transkei. In this regard I would like to congratulate your Government on the able manner in which it has shouldered the ever-increasing responsibilities flowing from this constitutional development . The Transkei has now reached the stage where it is but a step away from becoming a completely independent and autonomous state. When this step is to be taken is a question for you to decide. It will not be an easy decision to take but I can give you the assurance that should you embark upon this course, you will still be able to rely upon the Republican Government as a true friend who will come to your assistance whenever necessary. When one looks at this beautiful country, especially now after the copious rains that have fallen, one clearly realises that the true potential of the Transkei has still to be realised. The development of your wonderful coastline for tourism and holidaymakers is but one of the aspects that comes to mind. If climatic conditions are used as a yardstick, the Transkei could be a prosperous agricultural country. In so far as climate and soil fertility are concerned, the plains are, without exception, suitable for the production of a variety of crops, whereas the slopes of the well-watered mountainous regions have great potential for afforestation. The perennial rivers afford irrigation possibilities which can boost intensive crop production. So also, your Homeland has great potential for livestock production. At present the Transkei's agricultural production is insufficient to meet the needs of her population. Should the potential for the production of crops and live-stock be properly exploited it will not only be possible to meet the food requirements of your people, but a surplus would remain for export which in turn would have a stimulating effect on the economy of your Homeland . To give such a stimulus to the economy will not necessitate astronomical capital expenditure in view of the fact that over the years large capital amounts have already been expended on agriculture in respect of soil conservation, fencing, the provision of water and stock

MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you know, I feel in the position of a man who wants to rob a beehive of honey, but does not know what is inside it, for the hon. the Chief Minister never uses his entertainment allowance to get us to know the officals of the various departments intimately. (Laughter) Am I not justified in relying on his good words about Mr. Muller to say: "The same this end"? I must say he would not have said these eloquent words of gratitude were it not that Mr. Muller has done yeoman service as what is euphemistically known as a "backroom boy", and this side of the House, and probably all the members of this House, might be grateful to him for whatever niggardly largesse we have received under the Additional Appropriation Bill. One would like to wish him God speed. We know that those who have been bitten by the Transkei bug always have a sickness for the Transkei, and it is our hope that he will not altogether turn his back on the Transkei when he is away. We want to thank him and his family for his service to us in the Transkei. ADJOURNMENT OF ASSEMBLY CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, we have now come to the end of our short session, and I move that the House adjourn until further notice for the March session. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. The Assembly adjourned after the singing of "Nkosi Sikelel' i-Afrika and "Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Hesu". 10

improvement. Further capital expenditure on agriculture will bring about greater economical benefit to the Transkei than if it were invested in industry at the cost of agricultural development. It is important that this fact should be kept in mind in the allocation of available funds and the compilation of development programmes. It would therefore appear that the lack of self-suffiency cannot be ascribed to the inherent production capacity of the soil, but that the reason therefore should be sought elsewhere. It is in the hands of the Transkeian Government, its Department of Agriculture and Forestry and the people of the Transkei to find ways and means which will lead to the eventual full exploitation of the Transkei's great agricultural potential. It should be pointed out that it is of cardinal importance that the development of a country should take place on a properly planned basis, not only to ensure that unnecessary problems do not arise in the future, but also that the optimum benefit is obtained in the shortest possible time with the available funds and work-force. The importance of a development programme cannot be overemphasised and I refer here to a physical development plan for the whole territory. The Department of Bantu Administration and Development is, at their request, and as a special service. at present busy drawing up regional plans for a number of other homelands. These regional plans then serve as a sound basis on which the planning committees of these homelands can carry out further planning. It is suggested that your Government give serious consideration to this aspect so as to ensure that the further development of the Transkei can take place on a systematic basis.

The replacement of allocated professional and technical personnel is, however, dependent on the availability of suitable qualified candidates but I understand that your Government is also giving this matter the necessary attention. Your Government has once again given responsible attention to your financial administration. Money, Mr. Chairman, is said to be the root of all evil. But, as we know, it is also - perhaps regrettably the essential commodity basic to all activity in the modern world. It is usually in short supply at both personal and national levels. At a personal level most of us understand that to spend one Rand we must first acquire one Rand. Money is therefore earned by productivity. Strangely, however, few citizens of a country seem to understand that national spending operates on albeit on a vastly greater exactly the same basis scale. There is a widely held misconception on the part of the public that a government has only to print its own currency or to turn to ever present benevolent sources outside itself to balance perennially expanding budgets without the citizenry giving anything in return. Naturally, just as an individual frequently needs outside help to get a start in life, so too does a young state at the beginning of its path to eventual independence: Such has been the position in the Transkei for the past ten years, and the Republican Government has been generous in providing such help. Quite apart from ever-increasing spending by Republican departments not yet transferred to Transkeian control, such as Posts and Telegraphs, the accelerating pace is evident in the growth of the budget from R15,5 million in 1964/5 to nearly R68 million in 1974/5. Your Government's wage bill alone has risen from R1,5 million in 1964/5 to some R19 million this year. Social benefits paid out have risen from R1,5 million to R7 million per annum over the same period. Mr. Chairman, it is perhaps appropriate to mention that control over these vast sums spent by the Government in the Transkei is primarily in the hands of an accounting staff of 110 of whom only seven are White officers seconded from the Republic. The system is fully computerised and besides general payments, handles efficiently the monthly salary and wage payments of 30 000 government employees and bi-monthly distribution of social benefits to 90 000 pensioners.

Such systematical and programmed planning will as far as the economic development is concerned be on a basis of economic inter-dependence with South Africa in general, which implies that the Transkei cannot be looked upon as an entirely isolated entity in the planning of its development. In the interests of the Transkei and the Republic as a whole it is important that a regional plan be drawn up as soon as possible. This is a major and time-consuming undertaking and your Government is therefore welcome to make use of the service provided by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. In our modern times it simply can no longer be accepted that a country can develop without thorough planning which takes cognisance of all physical, social and economical factors. The Transkei is still in a position where its growth can be planned before such planning is hampered by existing development such as is the case in many highly developed arcas. Progress continues to be made in the replacement of allocated Republican officers by Transkeian citizens and the stage has now been reached where in the clerical and administrative divisions nearly all the posts at supervisory level have been filled by Transkeian citizens. I am given to understand that your Government is now preparing to undertake an extensive campaign aimed at obtaining suitable candidates to undergo the necessary training and grooming for the taking over of control posts. To prepare these candidates for the responsible positions they will occupy, will entail intensive in-service training accompanied by a series of short courses presented by authorities in their respective fields.

These figures reflect gratifying progress, but closer analysis reveals a disturbing fact, namely, that whilst annual budgetary spending has increased by 430% during the pase 10 years (i.e. from R15,5 million to R68 million) the internal revenue of the Transkei which is applied towards defraying these mounting costs, has risen by only 275% (i.e. from R3,5 million to some R10 million). It is probably only to be expected that investment in development will yield low returns until the various projects gain momentum. For this reason the growing dependence on the Republic revealed by the foregoing percentages need not give cause for alarm at this stage. Nevertheless a reduction of the dependency factor should be an ever-present national goal. This can only be achieved when each and every citizen works harder at his own particular job. Earnings rise, savings and profits make internal capital formation possible and the end result is decreasing dependence on outside sources for money, knowledge and skills. Your Department of Justice continues to make good progress towards assuming more and greater responsibilities. A High Court was established with effect from 1

11

August 1973 and a Regional Court on 1 November 1973. These courts meet a great need and also facilitate the quick disposal of cases to the benefit of all conearned. At the moment there are six magistrates offices where all posts from the most junior to the most senior, are manned by the citizens of the Transkei. The latest additions in this respect being Mount Fletcher and Kentani. With effect from 1 April 1974, the Transkeian Government will have control over police activities in eleven areas. A pre-requisite to the training of useful, responsible and reliable citzens of a State is the moulding and development of the character and personality of each individual child. To this end a sound system of formative education is necessary which must provide for the inclusion of a comprehensive policy embodying all the ideal through a system of formative education of nine Your Education Department desires to attain this id al through a system of formative education of nine years duration. It will be a system which makes it possible for each youth to attend school and enjoy training from Sub A to Standard VII in his own environment. The parent should find the training of his children less expensive as they will now be able to attend school up to Standard VII level from their homes. This system will have as a consequence that existing secondary schools can be converted into senior secondary schools. All the accommodation in schools and hostels now catering for forms I and II will become available for forms III, IV and V classes and students .

Whilst on the subject of labour, special mention must be made of the continuing efforts by my government, through the Xhosa Development Corporation to attract and establish industries in the Transkei. Such efforts have already changed the face of Butterworth and will undoubtedly have the same benefical effect on Umtata and other growth points within the next ten to twenty years. Special efforts to attract industries through agricultural development are however most essential. As a further result of these efforts, and the expected growth of private initiative within your borders, it is hoped that the gap between work-seekers and jobs will gradually narrow and that the time will come when the majority of Transkeian workers will be engaged locally in the development of their own country. Your government's plans for the introduction of legislation to regulate the training and employment of apprentices in certain trades will go a long way towards providing the skilled workers who are so much needed in an industrialised economy.

It is further anticipated that the enrolment in Form V will increase from 1025 in 1973 to over 5 000 in 1978. To raise the standard of education the number of inspection circuits has been increased from eleven to twenty-four. These circuits are now manned by seventy inspectors as against the former forty-four. Technical education continues to receive urgent attention and since the beginning of this year six new courses have been introduced at the Umtata Technical College Inter alia in panel-beating and trimming and upholstering. Provision has also been made on behalf of the Department of Health for the training of Health Inspectors, Medical Technologists, Health Assistants and District Nurses. The Trankei's third general election passed off smoothly; so much so that the impression is given that the Transkei has a much longer tradition of parliamentary government than a mere decade.

It is pleasing to learn that active steps are being taken towards the establishment of the Transkei's own traffic control force with the creation of 16 posts of traffic officer. The lack of traffic control on the main National Road passing through the Transkei has been the subject of complaint from various instances in the past. These officers will also be in a position to enforce the speed restrictions necessitated by the measures aimed at the conservation of fuel.

The Ncora dam, which will supply water to the Ncora Flats Irrigation Scheme which is being developed and will eventually cover an area of 5690 ha., was completed. It is expected that this irrigation scheme will make an appreciable contribution towards the economic development of the area in which it is situated as well as the Transkei as a whole. The area under irrigation at the Qamata scheme has been increased to 2570 ha. The correct use of these schemes to increase productivity is however of paramount importance and should be closely scrutinised.

Mr. Chairman, my speech would not be complete without a reference to an historic occasion in the annals of the Transkei. The eleventh day of December, 1973, will always be remebered as a milestone in the progress of your Government. For it was on this day, at 10 o'clock in the forenoon, that thousands of Transkeians assembled in the areas of the nine regional authorities to commemorate the tenth anniversary of your Government. Realising the importance of the event, your Government voted an amount of R20 000 to be spent solely on the celebrations. Mass choral singing tribal dances and other activities featured in the festivities. Selected speakers struck a note of solemnity when they looked back to the humble and perhaps uncertain, beginnings of the Transkeian Government and noted with pride and satisfaction the outstanding achievements which have undoubtedly surpassed all expectations, I must add, however that these celebrations should not mark the end of endeavour. Rather they should inspire each and every Transkeian citizen worth his salt, to dedicate himself anew to make his homeland the envy of states outside our borders.

This is a proud achievement which speaks volumes not only for the organisational capacity of your Department of the Interior and all its complementary functionaries, but also for your political leadership and the voting public. It is pleasing to see that your Government has not shirked its responsibilities toward the aged, the blind and the infirm during these times of escalating living costs. The amount to be expended in this regard during the current financial year amounts to 13 % of your total governmental expenditure. Transkeian labour continues to be much sought after by employers in the Republic. This is graphically borne out by statistics which reveal constantly increasing recruitment from the Transkei for an ever-widening diversity of employment opportunities in industry, mining, agriculture and other fields throughout the length and breadth of the country.

This can only be achieved by hard work, devotion to duty and love of one's fatherland. I look forward to the day when you will be celebrating the twentieth anniversary of your Government, and even though some of us may not live to witness that occasion, we nevertheless pray that by that time you may be a fully 12

fledged sovereign state capable of taking its rightful place amongest the nations of the world. I would now like to wish the Transkeian people every sucess in the year which lies ahead and tangible progress towards the realisation of all your national aspirations. The times we live in are troubled, without a doubt, but it is precisely at such times that great peoples and their leaders emerge. Our struggle in South Africa to find peaceful solutions to the problems posed by the " Haves" and "Have-nots ", and by national and cultural differences, is an epic one and is, in microcosm the struggle of the world at large to find such answers. That we are succeeding is due in no small measure to the example set by the Transkei. Today also marks a special occasion in the progress of your development in that someone who has long been associated with you is attending these proceedings in an official capacity for the last time. I refer to the Honourable the Commissioner-General who is known to you as "Somakhonkco". He has acted as a link between you and the Government of the Republic since 1960. We are all aware of his dedication and the very

important task he carried out with such goodwill over a period of so many years. It is fitting that we should say "Thank you very much" on this occasion. I am convinced that we all have the deepest appreciation of the pioneer work he carried out here and we wish him and his wife the very best of everything in their future field of activity. I now declare this Second Session of the Third Transkeian Legislative Assembly duly opened. ANNOUNCEMENT

CHAIRMAN : All members of the Assembly are invited by the hon, the Chief Minister to a garden party at Enkululekweni at 3 p.m. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 14th March 1974. THURSDAY, 14TH MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. The roll was called.

MEMBERS OF THE TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY IN ATTENDANCE : BIZANA

LIBODE:

Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela

Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata LUSIKISIKI : Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Miss. Nomzamo Stella Sigcau

BUTTERWORTH :

Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr Silas Walker Mbanga

MATATIELE: Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Matanzima Magadla Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Mafika Pascoe Ludidi Mr. Dalindyebo John Ndleleni

ELLIOTDALE : Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Popo Pakamile ENGCOBO:

Chief Sithembele Mgundlwa Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Gadini Gordon Kutu Mr. Sipiwo Alfred Xobololo

MOUNT AYLIFF: Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse MOUNT FLETCHER:

FLAGSTAFF :

Chief Chief Chief Chief

Chief Majesa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Kolisile Timothy Mbobo

Nelson Sigcau Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Mali David Nonkonyana George Sibidla Ndabankulu

IDUTYWA: MQANDULI:

Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Msopana Bonkolo Mr. Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr. Walton Langalibalele Sipuka

Acting Chief Sicitana Candulwandle Dalasile Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana

KENTANI :

Chief Devilliers Tsotso Mapassa Chief Gwadana Merriman Dondashe Mr. Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni 13

PARAMOUNT CHIEFS' REPRESENTATIVES.

MOUNT FRERE: Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Colley Dabula Mr. Mdunyelwa Nicholas Makaula

1. Mr. E. A. Pinyana 2. Mr. L. Maninjwa 3. Mr. G. Mapassa 4. Mr. A.M. Mfebe 5. Mr. A. D. Joyi The following members were absent for roll call :Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Ndamase Chief H. M. Sigidi Chief M. Lehana

NGQELENI : Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Kaizer Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase. Mr. Ramsay Madikizela

NQAMAKWE: Chief Mtutzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Mbele Eleven Dekeda

OBITUARIES CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is with a deep sense of sorrow that I have to announce to this House the untimely death of three members of this Assembly, namely:(a) Chief Bekiwonga Setuse of the Ntlangwini tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Mbumbane Tribal Authority, district of Umzimkulu, who passed away on 28th July 1973; (b) Mr. C. K. Madikizela, an elected member for Bizana constituency, who passed away on 27th August 1973; (c) Chief Sophonia Moshesh of the Basotho tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Basotho Tribal Authority, district of Qumbu, who passed away on 30th October 1973. Chief Bekiwonga Setuse succeeded as a member of this House the regent who acted for him, Acting Chief Ngqange Setuse. While not an active participant in the deliberations of this House, Chief Bekiwonga knew very well what to do when decisions had to be made. At no time did he show signs of confusion which is the characteristic feature that we find elsewhere. A humble but dedicated servant of his people, Chief Setuse will ever be remembered for his contribution to the tribal evolution and his participation in the resolutions for the development of the Transkei. To his family we wish to convey our condolences and advise them to forget about him and allow him to rest in peace.

PORT ST. JOHNS: Mr. Bokololo Phillip Vapi QUMBU: Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Vacant Chief Mbovane Sandy Majek Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta ST. MARKS: Paramount Chief Kazier Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief George Bangilizwe Siyabalala Acting Chief Mbuzo Ngangomhlaba Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch KaTshunungwa TABANKULU: Chief Zwelabantu Diko Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Dorrington Ndamase TSOLO: Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla 'Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika

Mr. C. K. Madikizela was a member of this House and a Cabinet Minister from 1963 to 1968, and an ordinary member from 1968 to the time of his death. Before 1963 Mr. C. K. Madikizela was a member of the Eastern and Western Pondoland General Council and played an important part in the amalgamation of this council with the Transkeian Territories General Council in 1930, when the United Transkeian Territories General Council was established in terms of the Native Councils Act of 1920. A teacher by profession, Mr. Madikizela made a valuable contribution to the educational development in Eastern Pondoland. On attaining retirement, he joined the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland's council as adviser to the Paramount Chief. When the United Transkeian Territories General Council was disestablished in 1956, Mr. Columbus Madikizela was a member of the recess committee that drew up the Transkeian Territorial Authority Proclamation of 1956. A member of the Transkeian Territorial Authority, C. K. Madikizela participated in all the deliberations leading to the establishment of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963. A dynamic debater who was always on the aggressive side, Mr. Madikizela was a principled man on the benches of this House. Having headed the Department of Agriculture and Forestry for five years, developments that took place during this period will always be associated with the name of C. K. Madikizela. During his term of office his humour,

TSOMO Chief Wiseman Gontsana Nkwenkwezi Mr. Ntsikelelo Armstrong Jonas UMTATA: Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Temba Mhlabunzima Makaula UMZIMKULU: Chief Solomon Tobigunya Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Vacant Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Vacant Vacant

WILLOWVALE : Paramount Chief Mzikayiso Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Khalakulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile Mr. Gebane Norman Sipunzi XALANGA: Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Acting Chief Xego Sami Momi Mr. Mxosana Jackson Sigwela 14

modesty and gentility won him the affection of his associates. May his soul rest in peace. Chief Sophonia Moshesh, the respected Sotho leader of Qumbu constituency, was a member of the Transkeian Territorial Authority and a member of this House since its inception. He will ever be remembered for his soft, poignant and pragmatic speeches which he delivered in the Sotho language. A man of principles and determination to represent the views of his tribesmen, Chief Sophonia won the love, respect and admiration of all who visited him at his official headquarters in Ngkayi. His death will ever be mourned by all who came in contact with him. May his family be consoled that he lived to build a comfortable home for them. These expressions of sympathy should be conveyed to the families of the three deceased . Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon members, I stand up to associate this side of the House with the expressions of sympathy coming from the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei to the families of the three men who have passed on. I may be excused if I have to state that because of the unaccountable principles in the Government benches, it has always been difficult for us to identify the rams from the ewes. Our reaction has always been that we have a proletariat on the Government benches, whilst the elite is in the Opposition. Having said that, I think we owe it to these men that we should say a word of thanks for their services to the Transkei. We need not have agreed with them, but we respected them for having held their views steadfastly, and we feel as if a member of our human bodies has fallen off when three men have died within such a short space of time as has passed between the last sitting of the second Assembly and this sitting of the third Assembly. May I just say one word on the late Mr. Madikizela. When we think of him we associate his memory with the late B. B. Mdledle - two old men who gave respectability to an otherwise irresponsible Cabinet of the first Assembly. I agree that he was a man of indomitable humour. He gave punch for punch and laughed over it after the battle. He was able to flip off criticism from his shoulder as a cow switches its tail and hits the flies, and it is not that he did not have these flies from amongst the members sitting at his shoulder. He was completely dedicated to saving the soil in the Transkei and he had the opportunity to make his mark in this field of development, and along the roads of the Transkei we can point to Madikizela's woodlots, Madikizela's forests, Madikizela's tea and many other things which he did from which we shall derive great benefit. You could never very well push him into a corner in an argument. He would either laugh you off or throw a whip back at you. He was indeed a typical politician who could get away with any acrobatic stunt in the gymnasium of party politics. These men have gone and we will go after them. They have left families behind who are shedding tears over their departure. May their families be consoled by the fact that they have hoed their row whilst they were in this world, and may their respective souls rest in peace. I wonder what happened when the late Columbus Madikizela arrived at the gates of Heaven? He could talk his way into Heaven without a doubt. The motion was carried, the members standing as a mark of respect to the late members. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH

1973, and failed, therefore, to take the oath prescribed in rule 3 of the Rules of Procedure of this House:Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula; Chief Frank Zibi; Chief Marshall Lehana; Sub-chief Calara Nomagqwatekana. The oath was not administered either to the five paramount chiefs' representatives. Will these members and represenatives come forward, therefore, to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. The following members and represenatives took the oath before the Chairman of the House:Members: Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula ; Chief Frank Zibi ; Sub-chief Calara Nomagqwatekana. Paramount Chiefs' Representatives: Mr. A. D. Joyi; Mr. L. Maninjwa; Mr. E. A. Pinyana; Mr. G. Mapassa; Mr. A. M. Mfebe. OBITUARY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to request your indulgence to rectify an omission which I made during the time of Obituaries. I refer to the late Edmund Goduka Sihele who died recently, and probably my omission was because his death was so recent. As the House knows, Mr. Sihele was a member of this House since 1966 to the date of his death, as representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland. He died some time during the month of February 1974. It is difficult for me to express my own impressions of the manner in which Mr. Sihele conducted himself because he was so attached to me that I regarded him as a brother. Mr. Sihele was formerly a civil servant in the Ciskei and Botswana. During the formation of the Transkeian Government, Sihele was very much interested and was an adviser to those who were concerned with the framing of the Constitution. A patriot and a counsellor to his chiefs, Sihele was a very truthful man. His nobility was clear whenever there were controversial matters which were brought up amongst the members of the tribe. Emigrant Tembuland mourns his death, but I think the whole of the Transkei and the whole of South Africa mourns the death of this poet of Africa. May his family be consoled with the fact that Sihele played his part in all the divers way of life amongst his people. I hope these expressions of sympathy will be conveyed to his wife and his children . Thank you, Mr. Chairman, MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon, members, first of all I think this House should express its sympathy to the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland in that capacity, as the late Mr. Sihele was his representative in this House. When the session opened yesterday we missed that colourful figure. We missed the big knobbed stick that used to be wielded so vigorously in the air as the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland approached these buildings. Indeed, we have lost a colourful figure who was a member of this House. It is hoped that his successor will pick up the knobbed stick and wave it in the air again. The late Mr. Sihele spoke with his heart. When he became convinced, he became emotionally involved. Many a time have I listened to his poetic eulogies of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland and wondered whether or not he was not reaching beyond his abilities. But loyalty is limitless, and we will remember this old, bald-headed man in the example he has set for us as to what the attributes of loyalty are. He played his part nobly as a representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland and I can remember vividly his altercations with me whenever I saw differently from his paramount chief, and then he would criticise robustly. He has served the people of the Transkei in his way, he has

CHAIRMAN: The following members failed to attend the first session of this Assembly in November 15

(b) Stanford Sigcau be designated as sub-chief over the entire area of jurisdiction of the Gunyeni Tribal Authority which comprises the following administrative areas:(i) Ngobozana 21 ; (ii) Mzintlava 23; (iii) Mbudu 24; (iv) Mevana 24A; and (v) Upper Ntafufu 26.

led a full life in all ways and we cannot begrudge him the rest that death has given to his weary limbs. May his family be comforted with these words and his soul rest in peace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion was carried, the House standing in silence as a mark of respect.

ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon, members, it is with a deep sense of sympathy that I have to report the illness of the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Paramount Chief Poto, who is at present confined to bed in the East London hospital. His absence should therefore be condoned and we wish him a speedy recovery to come and join us and grace the dignity of this House. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. member, we are deeply concerned over the health of Paramount Chief Victor Poto, and those of us who saw him during the Christmas month at Nyandeni and later at the local hospital had thought that by now he would have recovered completely. Many of you may ask what the trouble is, but in African life whoever tells of the illness of a paramount chief when women are within earshot? Please be satisfied in the knowledge that the latest reports still show him to be ill, but not as bad as he was before now. I therefore second the motion that his absence be condoned and that he should not suffer and loss by reason of that absence, or lose his membership of this House. We are looking forward to seeing his sunny smile again in this House.

(2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new sub-chieftainships in that the new sub-chieftainships will extend over areas in respect of which they were not previously made; (3) Now therefore, this Assembly recommends to the State President, in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963: (a) the abolition of the existing sub-chieftainships in respect of the Pondo tribes resident in Bomvini No. 16 and Ngobozana No. 21 Administrative areas in the district of Lusikisiki ; (b) the creation of new sub-chieftainships in the Lusikisiki district in respect of the Pondo tribes resident within the areas of the Bomvini and Gunyeni Tribal Authorities in the Lusikisiki district; and (c) the confirmation of the designation of: (i) Hamilton Z. Sigcau as sub-chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Bomvini Tribal Authority; and (ii) Stanford Sigcau as sub-chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Gunyeni Tribal Authority with effect from the date of confirmation of the designations. Mr. Chairman, I now move that the rules of this House be so waived as to allow me to proceed with this matter straight away.

APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that this Assembly appoint the following committees:1. Committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements:- The Minister of Justice (Chairman), Minister of Health, Messrs B. P. Vapi, K. M. N. Guzana and H. H. Zibi. 2. Committee on Public Accounts :- Messrs S. W. Mbanga (Chairman), D. J. Ndleleni, R. Madikizela, Rev. G. T. Vika, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase.

MINISTER OF HEALTH : Seconded. Agreed to.

3. Business Committee: The Chief Minister (Chairman), Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Minister of the Interior, the Chairman of the Assembly, Messrs. H. D. Mloyeni and K. M. N. Guzana.

EXTENSION OF AREAS OF JURISDICTION : LUSIKISIKI DISTRICT CHIEF MINISTER: In moving this motion shortly, Mr. Chairman" allow me to say that these chiefs were each originally designated sub-chiefs over one administrative area only. Chief Hamilton Sigcau was designated chief over the Bomvini Administrative Area and Chief Stanford Sigcau over the Ngobozana Administrative Area, and not over the entire area of jurisdiction under their tribal authorities over which authorities they exercised headship. In view of the fact that these subchieftainships were created after the Eastern Pondoland disturbances, and one of the reasons for the unrest at the time was the erroneous establishment of the old tribal authorities, my Department felt that any re-organization of chieftainships in the Lusikisiki district should be preceded by a thorough investigation and accordingly requested the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development to assign an ethnologist to investigate the merits of the proposed extensions and, in particular, the question as to whether or not the envisaged extensions of these two sub-chieftainships would lead to dissatisfaction and unrest. The Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development advised that the extension of the areas of the sub-chiefs concerned would not present a problem if the paramount chief and the tribes concerned were agreeable. The tribes concerned were consulted while the paramount

This committee will meet immediately after the adjournment in the Chief Minister's office MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTION CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, hon, members, I give notice to move and also that the rules of the House be waived in order that this matter may be dealt with immediately. I do not think it is contentious at all, because it involves the creation of new chieftainships. The motion reads:(1 ) That whereas the Qaukeni Regional Authority has resolved that (a) Hamilton Z. Sigcau be designated as sub-chief over the entire area of jurisdiction of the Bomvini Tribal Authority which comprises the following administrative areas:(i) Bomvini 16; (ii) Nyosana 22; (iii) Ngcoya 14A; (iv) Nyati 14; (v) Gqubeni 34; and (vi) Goqwana 15. 16

NOTICES OF MOTION

chief has approved of the extensions. No principle is involved in the extension of the areas of these two subchieftainships.

2. The Honourable the Chief Minister, Paramount Chief K. D. Matanzima gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Legislative Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei within a period of five years on the following conditions :(a) That the land promised to the Transkei in terms of the 1936 legislation of the Union of South Africa be granted to the Territory within a period of five years. (b) That such a grant shall not prejudice the right of the Transkei to the Districts orginally claimed, and (c) That a Recess Committee consisting of 26 members of this House with the Chief Minister as Chairman and 27th member be appointed by this House to consider: (i) Drafting Constitutional proposals to be tabled before the House of Assembly for legislation declaring the Transkei an independent state. (ii) the financial implications of the said independence on the Transkei. (iii) the boundaries of the aforesaid state. (iv) the implication of the said independence on the Chieftainship of the various (v) the possibility of opening negotiations with the Ciskei Government on the amalgamation of the two Units into one National Unit in terms of the Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act 1959. (vi) the international relations between the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa. (vii) other incidental matters pertaining to the contemplated independent state of the Transkei. (viii) That the Republican Government be asked to make available certain officials to serve in an advisory capacity on the said Committee."

Now, since the chieftainships will extend over areas in respect of which designations were not previously made, the extended chieftainship must be regarded as a new chieftainship in respect of those areas. With these few words, Mr. Chairman, I move that this Assembly should recommend to the State President that the State President confirm the designation of Hamilton Z. Sigcau as sub-chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Bomvini Tribal Authority; and Stanford Sigcau as sub-chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Gunyeni Tribal Authority. MINISTER OF HEALTH: I second. P/CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Chief Minister has finished and he has explained the matter thoroughly as a paramount chief. Other people would not be so eloquent in putting this matter forward. I second that these two chiefs should rule over these areas as requested. It is correct that they should rule those areas. Everything has been explained, even to the events of 1960. The region has agreed to this. As chairman of my region I agreed, and as paramount chief I also agreed. If I wished I could have applied brakes in this matter. (Laughter) These two men are of royal blood and it is quite fitting that they should be given this opportunity. They requested that they be given a few locations in order that they should be satisfied. That will also eliminate complaints. Both these men are fit and proper persons to occupy these positions and I am quite sure they will rule the people well. As a matter of fact, they have treated the people well up to now. These young men are quite intelligent and they will treat my people well. There is no ume for nonsense. You know what nonsense there was during the time it was practised. I mean to say the matter has been properly piloted by the hon. the Chief Minister. We agree as a regional authority and I agree as a paramount chief. I hope this matter will be expedited, because matters of this nature usually take a long time in Pretoria. I do not know the reason. It takes a long time when a person is just acting. and no confirmation comes. Matters in regard to chieftainship must be expedited because people want to exercise their powers. With those words we support this motion and request that these two sub-chiefs be given these powers. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs, chiefs, sub-chiefs and members of the House, we cannot in any way interfere with matters concerning the Qaukeni region. If the seeds of Qauka are increasing, let them increase; but they should also expect that when children have grown in number they usually scratch one another as they feed from the same dish. (Laughter) When people grow in numbers they start clamouring over seniority. I hope that the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni has made provision against that. We know that spiders (isigcawu) have poison and we hope that these spiders will not bite other people who are not "isigcawu". (Laughter) We are glad to support the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni when he has stated that there have been no objections. We would give this advice —- that in some other nations even women are given the opportunity of ruling. (Laughter) We hope this matter will be dealt with as quickly as possible, but you should not forget to invite us there. I will be glad to consume the whole carcass of an ox. Motion nut and agreed to.

3.

Mr. K. M. N. Guzana gave notice to move:"That this House has no confidence in the Government."

4.

Mr. T. E. ka-Tshunungwa gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to approach its Parliament to excise the Districts of Elliot, Maclear, Mount Currie, Matatiele, Port St. Johns Farms and Municipal Areas as a whole from the white Area of the Republic to the Transkeian Territories." 5.

Chief S. Majeke gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should make strong representations to the Republican Government for the abolition of the system of contract labour." 6. Chief S. Majeke gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the sessions of this Assembly should be extended to a period of three months." 7.

Chief G. M. Matanzima gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Government of the Republic of South Africa to transfer:17

(a) All the Police Stations situate in the Area known as the Transkei as defined by the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 ; and (b) All the Police stations situate in the Towns within the Magisterial Districts of the Transkei, to the Department of Justice of the Transkei."

weekend. (Laughter) In this way we are contributing a little in our effort to save petrol. Agreed to. ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHAIRMAN CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I have been requested by the business committee to invite the attention of hon. members to rule 84 of the Standing Rules of this House, and to state that questions shall be replied to on Tuesdays. Secondly, no deadline has as yet been fixed with regard to the submission of motions.

8.

Mr. N. P. Nkosiyane gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of raising the wages of the Transkeian Government labourers to a minimum of two rand (R2.00) per day." 9. Mr. H. H. Zibi gave notice to move:"That as a matter of utmost urgency the Teacher Training School in the Mvenyane Institution which has been closed this year be re-opened next quarter without fail."

TABLING OF REPORTS MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table the Report of the K.N.N. Commission of Inquiry in regard to the standard of education in the Transkei. Again, I lay upon the table the Report of the Department of Education for the period 1st January 1969 to to 31st December 1970.

10. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should request the Republican Government to repeal proclamation R400 in the Transkei."

NOTICES OF MOTION Mr. K. M. N. Guzana gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Republican Government should be requested by resolution of this House to amend the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 196 to provide for: (a) An Upper House of Chiefs (b) A Lower House of elected members."

11. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Transkei Government should request the X.D.C. to abolish all Beer Halls in the Transkei." The Assembly adjourned until 11 am. on Friday, 15 March 1974. FRIDAY, 15TH MARCH 1974 Prayers were read.

13.

Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should urge the Transkeian Department of Agriculture and Forestry, to review its whole policy with regard to the introduction, preservation and treatment of stock, attaching special emphasis on animal husbandry in the Transkei ." 14. Mr. W. C. Singata gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of embarking on the following programme in relation to the Department of Education :(a) The establishment of more post primary schools i.e. Secondary and High Schools; (b) Subsidiation of training of teachers; (c) Employment of clerks to handle all matters of Finance; (d) Increased emphasis on adult education; and (e) Employment of married women on a permanent basis."

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it has been brought to my notice that Chief Marshall Lehana, hon. member for Mount Fletcher district, has not attended this session because of physical indisposition. I think the House is aware that this member has been unwell for quite a long time. I anticipate that he may not be able to attend the sessions and for that reason I move that this absence from the session of this Assembly should be condoned. We wish him a speedy recovery . MR. K. M. GUZANA: I second that, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the business committee met yesterday afternoon and because of the curtailment in the use of petrol it is our decision as a business committee that the sittings on Fridays should start at 10 o'clock in the morning and end at 1 p.m. In terms of the rules of this House we are supposed to adjourn at 4 p.m. on Fridays. In order to obviate a presumption which may indicate that we are breaking the rules of the House I move that the sessions on Fridays should start at 10 a.m. and end at 1 p.m. Mr. Chairman, all the members would like to get home on Friday and come back either on Sunday evenings or early on Monday. The hon. members from Matatiele, for example, cannot get to Matatiele, before 6 o'clock in the evening in order to get petrol. The same with the members from Emigrant Tembuland and from Qaukeni region. The reason why we should adjourn at 1 p.m. is that we must rush home in order to get petrol before 6 o'clock so as to be able to come back for the session on Monday, I am sure this is clear to everybody. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, as a member of the business committee, I second this motion. The stipulation is that the petrol you get at home at 6 o'clock on Friday should not be used for nefarious visits over the

15.

Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, all bottle store and/or hotel licensees in the Transkei who are licensed must be unrestricted and free to sell their commodities in respect of which licences have been granted to who-ever they wish to sell irrespective of the race, colour or creed of the buyer." 16. Chief S. Majeke gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Transkei Government should urgently make representations to the Republican Government for legislative enactments to guarantee the freedom of the individual in the Republic of South Africa." CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, by arrangement with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition it has been felt that for him to begin his address on the motion of no confidence in the Government now, and then stop probably before adjournment at 1 o'clock, it would be beter if he started this on Monday. In the circumstances I move the adjourmnment of this until Monday morning at 11 o'clock. Agreed to. 18

Transkei to allow other rebates to tax payers as is done to other races." 19. Mr. M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to declare the municipal Areas of Butterworth, Idutywa, Umtata and Umzimkulu totally black in order to allow free trade competition in the business Areas of these towns."

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 18th March 1974.

MONDAY, 18TH MARCH 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members the hon. the Minister of Health is attending a very important meeting which is an official meeting in Natal today, and will probably be back tomorrow. The members for Umzimkulu are absent this morning on a very important mission, because tomorrow is the election of members of parliament in that area, and I felt that their coming back to Umtata today and then back home tomorrow was unnecessary because most of them are heads of tribal authorities and others are headmen and they might assist the polling officers to see that there is order during the election. MR. K. M. GUZANA : To which party do they belong? CHIEF MINISTER: To both parties. I move that their absence for two days should be condoned and that they be paid their full sessional allowances. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, we have no objection to the condonation of the absence of these hon. members for Umzimkulu because they will be involved in an election tomorrow. It is my hope, however, that other members who may be engaged elsewhere will receive this dispensation for their absence if their business is equally important to them. If I may add, I think some of the members who should be here are not here today because of the inclement weather and many people have been bogged down today. I recommend them for this dispensation. CHIEF MINISTER: I think every case will be dealt with on its own merits. CHAIRMAN: In connection with the Umzimkulu members, does the House agree? Agreed to.

NO CONFIDENCE MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members .. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Are you the Leader of the Opposition? MR. GUZANA: Anybody who wants to know if I am the Leader had better come over to this side and he will feel my presence I move:"That this House has no confidence in the Government." In doing so, I am exercising the democratic right of dissent and criticism and we are perpetuating a principle which must be entrenched in all governments. It is necessary that once a year the Opposition should point out the fallacies of the policy of the party in power, to pull out the skeletons in the cupboard and lay them bare so that the electorate sees how unworthy the Government is of its position. Since 1964 the difference between the two parties has stood clear and sharp - namely, on the policy of separate development and the policy of multiracialism. The Opposition has stood firmly on this principle of multi-racialism throughout the past ten years, whilst the governing party has many a time wavered away from its fixed policy, has made utterances which have betrayed their loyalty to the policy of separate development, and I suggest that if they are honest men and women they ought to come over and surrender to the policy that seems to be a practical reality in South Africa. We have had talks about Greater Xhosaland which will be multi-racial; we have had threats that if separate development is not implemented to its logical conclusion then the hon. the Chief Minister will throw in his lot with the multi-racialism group and streak down to Cape Town. All these indications show that there is something the matter; there is something wrong with the policy of apartheid, and whether we camouflage it by using the words separate development good neighbourliness, parallel development or what have you, it still remains basically apartheid ― that is, separation for domination. I would like to point out a few fallacies which have become the basis of action for those who say separate development is the right policy for South Africa. One of the fallacies which support this concept is that all whites and blacks in South Africa accept the policy of separate development. The idea is that since this is so, therefore we must begin to separate the people on an ethnic basis, and yet my observations have brought me to the conclusion that whilst, theoretically, people accept the policy of separate development, from the practical point of view they are accepting the consequences of multi-racialism. Almost all departments of state, whether in the Transkeian Government or in the Republican Government, have a multiracial civil service. In the mining industry you find a multi-racial labour force; in the building trade you find you have this mixture of racial groups; you go to the homes and you find black people working for white people, so that, whilst people pay lip-service to the policy of separate development, in their lives and in their work and in their relationship one with another they are accepting the fact

MESSAGE SECRETARY: The following message has been received: "Wishing you a happy session and wisdom, strength and inspired leadership for the next five crucial years. Congratulations also on historic and momentous motion. With kind regards to all my friends - Mills." TABLING OF REPORTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Report of the Controller and Auditor General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1972/73. In terms of rule 147(b) it stands referred to the sessional committee on public accounts. NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr. S. W. Mbanga gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to cause the transfer by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope of all the remaining towns in the Transkei to the Transkeian Government." 17.

18.

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:-

“That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei government should review the system of Taxation in the

19

that we are multi-racial, It is therefore an error of judgement to suggest that the people of South Africa accept the policy of separate development, since in their living they do not put it into practise. To me this is a case of dishonesty which completely undermines the concept of the separation of the races in South Africa. The second fallacy is to the effect that participation of the various racial groups in South Africa in the government of the country will cause racial friction; that because there has never been in South Africa a multiracial parliament, if it were to be tried then there would be race friction, so that the conclusion is reached that this cannot happen even before an attempt has been made to try out a parliament which is multi-racial. My own experience throughout South Africa is that the different racial groups get on very well socially. I have seen that Blacks and Whites work together amicably in the factory; in commerce and in every sphere of economic activity in South Africa; that this smooth interrelationship has been the result of continous and constant consultation between Black and White in the various spheres of activity where the two racial groups are brought together;

Whilst the Coloured community has the Coloured Representative Council it has no piece of land either promised or given to it. The Indian community does not have a piece of land to itself. For the last 25 years nothing has been said as to the destiny of the black city-dwellers. Their destiny is unknown save that they have been related by some stretch of imagination to a homeland probably 800 to 1 000 kilometres away. This Government has not been able to place before us a solution to the problem of the black city-dweller, so that the black man in the urban area is a forgotten child of this Government. Instead of, under the policy of separate development, catering for the political aspirations of the black citydweller who is politically aware, agitation has been caused in the "native" reserves and it is sought to give those people political or pseudo-political rights. If separate development then does not cater for everybody it is wrong, and it is fallacious to argue that it is the panacea of our racial problems. It has been suggested that as states are established in South Africa, ethnically orientated, so will the political aspirations of the black people be satisfied and the grand idea is that at some stage of the future, when all these homelands become independent states, there will be a commonwealth of South Africa, and this is a situation which will result in a dominant white state dictating to the subservient ethnic states. The present economic facts of the situation point out clearly that the white man has the economic power and the black man has nothing but his muscles and sinews to offer, so that even if we have rich coal deposits (I put a question mark) along the Indwe Mountains and titanium has been discovered along the coast, there is very little we can do to give the Transkei economic muscles. The obvious conclusion, therefore, is that white South Africa will have colonies under its control, because political independence does not feed the people. It is economic independence that feeds the population, and when I speak of economic independence I do not suggest that any country can stand alone economically. There is bound to be interdependence, and that economic interdependence comes about as between parties equal in their economic development. Looking at South Africa generally, we find that where you have the industries, where you have the factories , where you have the minerals, where you have the facilities, where you have the infrastructure for industrial development, you have almost an exclusive concentration of the white population, and thus the white state will dominate all the non-white ethnic states. Colonialism by another name is certainly not acceptable to twentieth-century thinking. The other fallacy of the policy of separate development is that separate devlopment is good for all the different racial groups, except for the Whites. Fof the last 25years the Republican Government has been passing through legislation after legislation to establish states for people who are not white. There has never been any legislation which seeks to create an Afrikanerstan, an Englishstan or a Jewstan in South Africa. If this policy is so good for us, for the Coloured, for the Indian, for the Xhosa, Tswana, Venda, why is it not good enough for the Englishman, for the Afrikaner, Jew, Chinaman who lives in South Africa? After all, they are ethnically different. We have been told that we are traditionally different, culturally different, linguistically different from the white man.

That dialogue has been declared to be the best means of reconciling the desires, aspirations and wishes of all racial groups in South Africa and that about two weeks back the homeland leaders were with the Prime Minister in Pretoria, consulting on government matters, so that on a consultative and an advisory level there has not been any friction or difficulty when the different racial groups are brought together. Is there reason to believe that there will be racial tension if those consultative bodies then are vested with legislative powers? It is my submission that if we were to share the government of South Africa, instead of exacerbating race relationships in South Africa we would find that racial tension is reduced to a minimum. The third fallacy is that, whilst the different racial groups are separated one from the other politically, economically, socially, there will be a South African patriotism so that the more we are apart, the further we are apart from one another, the less communication there is between us, the more patriotic we will be towards South Africa, which seems to suggest that the more we are ethnically divided the more we shall feel that we belong to South Africa; that if we develop an ethnic identity an ethnic patriotism, an ethnic concentration or ― shall I say? - an ethnic way of thinking, we shall, having gone the opposite way, by some mysterious magnetism be drawn together to regard South Africa as our country. That when we want one don't another at peace, we will want one another at war; that when we fight one another in South Africa over spheres of influence, over land apportionment, over consolidation, we shall still move together side by side, shoulder to shoulder, when we face the threat from the North. I submit that pockets of exclusive identity and of exclusive nationalism and exclusive patriotism cannot come together to manifest a patriotism for South Africa which belongs to all of us . One of the biggest faults that we can point to in the policy of separate development is that it is at best a sectional solution of the problem of race relationships in South Africa; that if the Xhosas have their anthill, the Zulus have their anthill, the Sothos have their anthill, the Vendas have their anthill, the whole problem of race relationships in South Africa has been solved. And yet, within this context which seems to solve race relationships in South Africa, we have certain ethnic groups about which nothing is said as to providing them with their little anthill too.

CHIEF MINISTER: Is the Transkeian Government responsible for the establishment of these ethnic governments?

20 20

MR. GUZANA: Whilst this Government is not responsible for the establishment of these ethnic governments it is participating in the establishment of an ethnic government in the Transkei, and yet, when you look at the white group, you find that the Afrikaner likes his "Suikerbos ek wil jou hê” whilst the Englishman likes his "Danny Boy", Whilst the Afrikaner likes his boerwors and is identified with his boerwors, the Englishman still likes his steak.

of this policy has resulted in the break-up of relationships even among the black people in South Africa. There is now a cancerous development of antipathy between the Xhosa and the Sotho. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I now order that hon. Chief from Bizana, Chief Gangata Baleni, to get out of this House. Chief Gangata Baleni left the Assembly Hall. MR. GUZANA: As a consequence there is a growing hatred between the Xhosas and Sothos. GOVT. MEMBERS : No, no. MR. GUZANA: There is at the present moment a festering situation developing between the Hlubis and Sothos in Maluti region. In the Ciskei you have a clear division between the Rarabe and the Fingoes. (Interjections) This is the consequence of separation. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Is your home in Kieskammehoek? MR. GUZANA: My home is in Ncambedlana. I was born in Keiskammahoek. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who is your chief?

MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Bacon and egg. MR. GUZANA: Or his bacon and egg - so that there is no basis of truth in the submission that because we happen to be staggered, one ahead of the other, on the road to ultimate culture we must therefore be separated . If the hon. member wants to know why I am here, it is because of my dedication to the policy of multi-racialism and I stand here to stop these dunderheads from committing suicide. (Laughter) I know the Nongqause mentality is still very much to the fore in this Government, but you know what happened. After everybody had killed their stock they began to starve. I am very much concerned about your welfare. Now, if separate development is that, can anybody really and honestly accept it as a solution for South Africa? I want to identify this Government with the sentiments contained in the Nationalist Part's manifesto which was published in the Daily Dispatch on Saturday when the Party stated that it categorically declares itself opposed to any constitutional set-up in which political power is shared by various peoples in one political unit. So the Nationalist Party rejects the black man, this Government rejects the Coloured and the white man and the Zulu and the Venda and the Portuguese. (Laughter) This is the charge which we prefer against this Government that it is as racialistic as the most racial people in South Africa. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: When you say "we", it is you and who ? MR. GUZANA: I do not say "we", I am speaking of the Government. It is the Government which rejects other racial groups . (Interjections) MR. C. DIKO : Are you speaking of the Transkeian or the Republican Government? MR. GUZANA: I do not know where this hon. member comes from. (Laughter) At one time around 1966 he nearly went to prison for an attempt to murder the hon. the Chief Minister. At a later stage he aligned himself with the Transkei People's Freedom Party and during the last five years he has been plugging at religion. (Laughter) Then he has surfaced again as a member of the governing party. If only you would remember or recall his vituperative utterances against the policy of separate development !

MR. GUZANA: I am my own chief because when you come to my house you will sit where I tell you to sit; you will eat the food I give you; and when I have had enough of you I can kick you out. (Laughter) So I am my own chief in my own house. You have this situation then of separation of black people, black against black, developing. I have it on authority that civil servants in the Ciskei have to identify themselves by clan before they are employed . MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: This is the Transkei. Don't worry about what is happening in your country, the Ciskei. MR. GUZANA: If I have to talk about the Transkei I have pointed a finger at what is happening in Maluti. The Hlubis and Sothos have been living there for many, many years together and have enjoyed good relations one with the other, but they heard this word "separate", "apartheid", and they are beginning to separate themselves. This sort of philosophy grows like Kikuyu grass. No clear soil is free from it. It will upset the best relations anywhere. What happened up in the Transvaal and Orange Free State not so long ago? Lives were lost, people were maimed, and the clash was beXhosa-speaking tween the Sotho-speaking and the peoples. It was not a case of these workers seeking to improve their lot in their employment, but because the Xhosa do not accept the Sotho; the Sotho do not accept the Xhosa. Those are the painful consequences of the policy of separating the races. They begin to think in terms of ethnic affiliations, rather than thinking in terms of a labour force seeking to improve its lot. I welcome the statement of the hon. the Chief Minister when he said to his Congress that this matter has been settled, but the fire would not have started if we had not been constantly adumbrating separation. The policy of separate development is one of rejection of the Black by the White. Now I want to deal with the credibility of this Government on the land issue. One would have liked men of integrity to be consistent in their objectives. One would have liked to see men setting themselves a target and not faltering in seeking to attain that target. One would like to see these men not moving an inch from their demands, but what type of Government have we got? MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: A very good Government. MR. GUZANA : So good that it is even pliable on issues which it regards as fundamental to its survival. About four to five years back this Government shook

You need to put him under a microscope to see who he is. Now, again, as a result of this manifesto based on the same concept as underlines the policy of the Transkei National Independence Party, the Republican Government reserves to itself the position of dominance and, since there can be no political unit in which all racial groups share in legislation, then the hon. the Chief Minister might well spell out how he is going to achieve federation in South Africa. I am not falsely accusing the hon. the Chief Minister when I say that he was the first to start the flame of federation in South Africa in recent years, and if the party in power in the Republican Government says it won't share political power how can that White-stan governed by that white party come into a federal assembly? I submit to you that separate development is nothing else but rejection of all other racial groups by the white group, and your acceptance 21

its fist in the air, threatened bloodshed in East London and said there should be no independence unless and until we get Matatiele, Maclear, Elliot, Mount Currie, Umzimkulu, Port St. John's. Anybody standing afar off would have thought the big shadow of the fist reflected indeed the size of the fist, but everybody suffered from an optical illusion because when we looked closely at the fist we found it very small, very puny and ineffective. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Was it that you couldn't see properly? MR. GUZANA: Everybody, even the TNIP supporters. Everybody in the TNIP was throwing his chest out and walking deliberately down York Road, imagining possessions of all these places, (Laughter) threatening violence and what have you. How easily has this bubble been pricked! Now we have had a big come-down, a real let down for the supporters of the Government.

though my motion covers everything, even that motion of independence. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I want to speak on the economy of the Transkei and in particular how it affects the civil servant, the man in the street, because I feel that this Government has not given the attention that is due to the economic upliftment of the low-class peasant inhabitant of the Transkei. Comparing the labourer in the Transkei with labourers outside the Transkei or in other countries of the world, he is the poorest-paid individual. We have had evidence in this House of people being paid R1.75 a week. We have had people working in town and earning R8, R10 or R12 a month in the business sector. We have had government labourers earning 60c. a day, 80c. a day, and when you relate these wages to the cost of living one really just wonders how these people have been able to survive. In January 1973 a four-gallon tin of paraffin cost R1.10. Today the same quantity costs R2.40 or R2.60. Has this Government ever considered making recommendations, or even passing legislation through this House, to determine a minimum wage in the Transkei? If it has not the power to legislate on labour matters, why has it not invited the Wage Determination Board to come and lay down a minimum wage in the Transkei ? How can we expect people to be honest when their financial circumstances compel them to be dishonest? Shoplifting in Umtata alone is becoming more and more prevalent; robbery is becoming a common crime in the Transkei ; assault to rob is something new which has come in because the people are hungry and because they have no jobs to hold. Civil servants commit themselves to the purchase of houses or land and find they are unable to meet repayment instalments, and at the same time maintain a decent living. Job opportunities have not increased to catch up with the backlog of able-bodied men who want to work and cannot get work, nor have they been able to absorb the new labour force which graduates into the labour market from year to year. We speak of an economic advisory council we have projects on paper, but the people are still starving . I charge this Government with utter irresponsibility on the question of feeding its people by ensuring a decent wage for the empolyed Transkeian in the Transkei. Only a decent living makes for decent citizens, and coupled with this economic destitution we have an unprecedented increase in stock-theft offences. This sort of thing is similiar, I would liken it to a robber robbing the bank of the peasant of the Transkei. The hon. the Minister of Justice accuses me of representing the thieves at stock-theft trials. If only I had a good job under this Government I would have given up my practice and taken up the job. (Laughter) But all people charged with stock theft are not necessarily stock thieves, and I champion the defence of people alleged to have stolen when they have not stolen, and those who have indeed stolen go to goal even through my fingers. (Laughter) But the fact of the matter is that a man loses 92 sheep overnight, moved in a lorry, and there is no follow-up. In the Libode districts, thieving over a period of a year (I think in 1972) cost the inhabitants nearly R40 000 in stock losses. This is the sort of thing that is undermining the economy of the peasant population of the Transkei, and nothing is being done by the Department of Justice. It has been suggested by the public that there is no vigilance exercised in order to protect the individual and his property against thieving. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Why do you defend the thieves? MR. GUZANA : The hon. member for Cofimvaba

What are the terms of negotiation now with the Republican Government? The hon. the Chief Minister has said that in view of the categorical statement by the Prime Minister to the effect that the Transkei and other homelands would get no more land than is provided for under the 1936 Act, he asks his colonies: Will you please consider this matter favourably? I am just about to lose face (Laughter) We have always told him that the Vorster Government will give no more land than the 1936 apportionment, but he refused to accept that. I do believe he was rapped on the knuckles on the 6th March in Pretoria over this land issue and came home tail between the legs. And then we see a new phrase Promised Land. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is now in a clever manner trying to discuss the motion which I have just tabled. With all due respect, I think he will have ample opportunity to pass that motion. He should not at this stage make reference to any particular phrase which we find in that motion. In terms of the rules of this House I do not think he should be allowed to go into any matters which may arise in so far as that motion is concerned. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I have deliberately and consciously eschewed the subject of independence. All I am dealing with now is the credibility of this Government, and if the phrase "promised land" is going to be excised from my vocabulary what am 1 going to use to describe this quaint situation? MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Use another phrase. You know a lot of English. MR. GUZANA: So I am not dealing with that subject, Sir, I am merely dealing with the credibility of this Government on the land question, that is all, and if matters tend to be interrelated how can we do otherwise than make reference to some of the matters which may be raised when we discuss other motions? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, this is one of the provisions which is found in that motion — that is, the land question. I submit that the hon. member is now discussing the motion which will be tabled in this House at a later stage. He will have ample chance to discuss this when the motion is tabled, and he will raise this issue, Sir. I appeal to you for a ruling on this matter.

CHAIRMAN : I would request the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Guzana, to avoid reference in any way to the motion that is to be handled by this House. MR. GUZANA: I shall accept this curtailment of my right to speak on any subject under this motion, al222

the Transkei and want to say how disappointed we are with this Government in that it has done nothing, or very little, by way of exploiting this primary and most fertile asset of the Transkei. In spite of the ten years during which this Government has been responsible for agricultural development in the Transkei we still have to import maize into the territory, we have to import eggs into the Transkei, we have to import vegetables into the Transkei, and yet we pride ourselves on being a part of the country which is basically fertile and which has an adequate amount of rainfall. Can the Government tell us why it is unable to feed from its land the people living in the Transkei? There must be something radically wrong with the agricultural system of this Government. The agricultural project sponsored and made possible by the Lubisi irrigation scheme has been run at a deficit. Farmers placed on the irrigated area or the area under irrigation or the area capable of irrigation are selected on a tribal basis. It is not the best agricultural farmer who is placed on these lands. It is that he is a Tembu and must get a piece of land. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In Tembuland. MR. GUZANA: In Tembuland, under a Tembu chief and under a Tembu paramount chief. (Laughter) Many of the peasant farmers have deserted from their allotments, Cash crops are not grown, and the people have not been encouraged to grow cotton. CHIEF MINISTER : When were you at Qamata?

asks me why I defend thieves. I expect that he has got some money salted away so that in the event of his being charged with stock theft he will come and brief me. (Laughter) The complaint by the people at political meetings is that there is never a quick follow-up of spoors; that the complainant is asked: Whom do you suspect of having stolen your stock? The complainant is told to go and look for his stock and if he finds anything to report back and the police will then arrest the suspect. To mind, when a Government neglects its duty, ignores its responsibility to its citizens, when its citizens are deprived illegally of their property, such a government can never enjoy the confidence of the inhabitants of its country. Then I want to challenge this Government under its policy of separate development to spell out its policy in relation to the Whites and to the Coloureds in the Transkei. Statements have been made to the effect that some of the Whites will be driven out of the Transkei, others will be offered citizenship. What is this Government's policy on the Whites of the Transkei? We know that Whites will not leave the Transkei because we need them; we know the Coloureds will not leave the Transkei because we need them. But there has been a considerable amount of uncertainty about the position of these communities. This Government has been in power for ten years. By now it must know what it is going to do about the Coloured community in the Transkei and the White community in the Transkei. We cannot have this Government avoiding this very, very important factor which is relevant to our economic development, to our educational development, to the acquisition of skills by the Transkeians. Mr. Chairman, may I move that we stand adjourned until 2.15 p.m. CHIEF MINISTER : Seconded. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.

MR. GUZANA: I don't have to report to the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland when I go to the irrigated area of Qamata. But the fact is that no benefit has been derived from that multi-million investment in the Transkei. One wonders what is going to happen with the Ncora irrigation scheme. We will impress visitors with these grandiose schemes and they will go away with the impression that there is an agricultural awakening in the Transkei, but the fact of the matter is that the people are still starving in the Transkei in spite of the potenial of our agriculure. How can you have confidence in a Governmen that cannot use its best asset with no tariff requirements, no subsidy, no loans, no nothing, as they put it? Just the land to feed the people, and there is no agricultural policy. The policy of that Department is bedevilled with preferences for rehabilitated areas, as if soil

AFTERNOON SESSION NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, my request was that this Government must enunciate a clear statement on the position of the Whites and Coloureds in the Transkei, regard being had to the fact that they are an indispensable part of our economic development; and, secondly, because each individual has a personal right to determine his domicile whenever en wherever he pleases. Were the Government following the policy of the Opposition this would raise no problem whatsoever CHIEF MINISTER: Where is the Opposition? MR. GUZANA: • because everybody would be living where he or she elects to live. The hon. the Chief Minister wants to know where the Opposition is. May I just point out that he has rendered illegitimate one of his progeny and probably that will form a part of the opposition to him. So there is no lack of opposition, both from the official Opposition and from other sectors of opposition. May I comment favourably on the fact that this Government has not in any way obstructed or resisted the establishment of a residential area for the Coloured community within the municipal area of Umtata on the Commonage between Umtata and Ncambedlana, but we feel that these acts should be accompanied by statements of assurance. We do not expect either the Coloured or the White people to become tribalized into carrying reference books. All we want is that we should respect the dignity of the individual and his rights as a 'human being. I am particularly concerned with agriculture in

conservation is only required in rehabilitated areas, and the rest of the country which is not rehabilitated can go to blazes, as it were. We cannot have any confidence in a Government so negligent. Then I want so say a word or two about the Department of Health and the Department of Education. To show and to prove to the Government that it does not deserve any confidence whatsoever these two departments have been bedevilled by a very aggressive Cabinet Minister. He has threatened to resign when he has not had his way; he has bedevilled race relationships; he has created tension and unease in the various departments in which he has worked. The present Minister of Health has had to carry a baby deformed by this Minister. (Laughter) The Department of Health has not got the two most senior officials essential for that department to discharge its duties properly. And what has happened in the Department of Education? Nothing but animosity, rabid nationalism, hatred, making life impossible and unpleasant for people working in that department. We are compelled to ask the hon. the Chief Minister to tell us whether or not he is obliged to this impediment, and since the Minister of Education has told some of his officials to get out of his office it is about time the hon. the Chief Minister 23

instructions from a group of unmanageable individuals across the floor. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition says the Opposition has no confidence in the Government. The question that we on this side of the House would like to put is : Where is this Opposition party across the floor? If you were to dissect the membership of the so-called Opposition, you would find there is a cross-section of individuals, some of them the remnants of communistic fellow-travellers who have brought trouble upon the Leader of the Opposition. I am sorry the hon. member for Mount Ayliff is not in his seat this afternoon, because I would put the question to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as to whether the hon, member for Mount Ayliff is inclined to the support of his party. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No. CHIEF MINISTER: I would also be in a position to ask the hon. member for Mount Ayliff as to what political ideas he has in this country, because we do not know where he stands. (Interjections) He is a fellowtraveller of the Opposition. I ask this question because one of his henchmen is a leader of the newly-formed party which has broken away from the Opposition party. (Interjections) It has been written in black and white that there was a vote of no confidence passed against the hon. the Leader of the Opposition by a splinter group of the Opposition, and I would like to get the views of the three hon. members from Engcobo who are just in front of me to tell this House where they stand politically in relation to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. (Interjections) I hope you will tell me where you stand in relation to the Democratic Party, because in my own view the whole of the socalled executive of that splinter group is composed of personnel who have been fellow-travellers of communists. (Interjections) The whole intention of this group is to turn the Democratic Party into a communistic revolutionary party which is going to upset the whole policy of the Transkeian Government. They have in no uncertain terms told the country that their aspiring leader is an adviser to SASO and a member of the Black People's Convention, a revolutionary movement in South Africa which has stated in no uncertain terms that it will win power by revolution. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: Discuss the no-confidence motion. CHIEF MINISTER: I am discussing it. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I can see that I have stung the three hon. members from Engcobo, and I can see they are very uncomfortable in their seats because they will find themselves in trouble. Now, if the Democratic Party has no confidence in the Government, a Government which has been elected by this House, a Government which has won the biggest majority it has ever won during the 1973 election, will the hon. members across the floor mind if we say we do not care for their confidence because the Transkei has full confidence in the Government? Therefore, Mr. Chairman I will ignore all the accusations levelled against the Government by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, and probably treat the frivolous arguments on the aspects he raised with the contempt they deserve. This vote of no confidence in the Government has given me an opportunity to tell the country what the Government has done, and the Transkeian citizens know what the Government has done and have got full confidence in the Government In 1963 the Government had in its revenue a sum of about R16 million to be spent on the services of the

told his hon. Minister to get out of the Cabinet. We cannot see any excuse for keeping this Minister in the Cabinet, because he destroys the credibility of this Government. We would not mind if the embrrassment was to the Government only, but this embarrasment coming to us too. I think the hon. the Chief Minister should have got, by now, sick and tired of becoming an emergency maternity nurse. (Laughter) When this hon. Minister was just about getting out, he performed the saving act of reminding them of his loyalty to this Government; and when he embarked on ruthless and irresponsible Africanization the hon. the Chief Minister had to come to his assistance and perform the necessary maternity work. This side of the House says he must go, and go quickly. He is an embarrasment to this House and an embarrasment to this Government; he is an embarrasment to the administration and an embarrasment to race relationships in the Transkei. Lastly, Mr. Chairman, may I point out that there is more care to be brought to bear upon the security of South Africa than little puny liberties in separate states. In the face of the security threat we are having built up in the North building up in the Indian Ocean, we ought to come together and forget our racial differences. (I am not talking about independence, Mr. Chief Minister.) Let us accept the fact that we are here to stay together, mix together for all time; that we need each other and we cannot be neighbourly to a man who is right in Cape Town when we are here. Let us accept the fact that we are neighbours and we should be neighbourly. South Africa is suffering at the hands of the rest of the Western world and the Eastern world because of its policy. Can we not change? Can we not see reason when all the world and everybody else says we are wrong? Let us not be the one singer in a choir of a thousand singers who says everybody is singing a false note - I am the only one who is singing the correct note. (Laughter) With those remarks I wish to say that we have no confidence in this Government. ' MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who is "we"? MR. GUZANA: If you want to know, read the motion. It says "this House" has no confidence in the Government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN: I would like to know if there is any amendment from the Government side. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to reply to the ideological and theoretical platitudes flowing across the floor of this House from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. After ten years of Transkeian rule, one would have expected that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would have assessed the negative political approach in our politics as a waste of time, and that this negative approach is devoid of any form of realism. I presume, Mr. Chairman, that it is a very nice time to be an armchair critic because an armchair critic is not shouldered with any responsibility and therefore he can utter any irresponsible statement. The accusations which have been levelled against the Government this morning and this afternoon should not in any way upset the minds of the hon. members of this House because it is a repetition of the old, old story from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The people of the Transkei are aware of the duties which devolve on the responsible side of this Government. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Which is the irresponsible side of the Government? CHIEF MINISTER: It is not necessary for us to take 24

Transkei. What did the Government do with this money? It raised the wages of the labourers employed by the Government, it increased the stipends of the headmen, it increased the salaries paid to the Transkeian civil servants. For the first time in the history of our country we were in a position to know what money was being spent on our services. Before that, in a so-called multi-racial society, we did not know what money was spent on the services of the Transkei , what money was reserved for our own revenue. The Transkei people requested the Republican Government to declare these territories a self-governing state. It was not this Government that did that. They did so because they did not know what money was sepnt on their services, and from 1964 the Transkei people have seen progressive development in all the ramifications of their lives. I refer particularly to these departments which were placed by Constitution under the Transkeian Government. During the financial year 1973/74 the amount of money spent by the Transkeian Government was about R56 million, so you can see that since the inception of the Transkeian Government in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act there has been progressive development emanating to the people of the Transkei, and not to these disgruntled individuals you see before you. Now, in our Public Service (that is the Public Service of the Transkei) we had in 1963/64 1 898 black civil servants on our establishment and 427 white seconded officials. In 1962 the number of black civil servants was increased from the number I have just referred to to 3 630, and the number of seconded officials was reduced from 427 to 279. In 1973 the number of our public servant (that is, black public servants) on our establishment increased to 4618 and that of the Republican seconded officials to 342. Suppose we had remained under the so-called multi-racial policy of the pre-1963 era, I ask the question : Would this be the position? You are aware of what took place before that time when the sons and daughters of the white missionaries, the white magistrates, the whie civil servants in the Transkei, the white farmers filled all the ranks of our public service, while none of our children could be employed in the civil service of the Republic of South Africa. It is nice to theorize and it is a different thing to be practical. I want to repeat that the Transkeian people who applied for the policy of separate development are some of them among the ranks of the Opposition members. We are aware of the disabilities they suffered under the so-called multiracial policy. In the first place, none of the African people in this country have ever been members of parliament in Cape Town. Many have tried, even by revolutionary means, to change the order of South African government policy but they have failed. I sympathise with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because when he talks to this House, he talks as if he is talking in Cape Town representing the white electorate. The language that he uses is that of the Hughes', Suzmans and others about whom we always read in the papers, but the fact of the matter is that the Transkei has been a self-governing state for ten years now and it is in the process of constitutional development to the point of no return. We would like an opposition that would contribute to the development of the Transkei, rather than be destructive to its advancement. If we turn to the Department of Justice and see what progress has been made in that department, it will please you to know that today we have got six districts controlled by black magistrates. Would that be the case if the policy which we follow on this side of the House had not been taken up? Would you have

black magistrates over the white community of the Transkei in places like Kentani? I am asking that because I feel you are like dogs baying at the moon. You talk of one parliament in Cape Town. You are behind the times. The whole country is no longer talking about a parliament in Cape Town. You know, when I was in East London in November some of the prominent Progressive and United Party members who were present at the Bulura discussions came to me and said: "Can't you talk to the Leader of the Opposition in the Transkeian parliament and tell him he is behind the times?" The country no longer talks of multiracialism today, but of federation of independent governments. In the Department of Justice we have the Prisons Department under our own people. Are you against that, hon. member for Tsolo? You are a baby, you see, you know nothing. Take the Department of Police ― it is transferring police stations to the Transkeian Government year by year. I would advise the Opposition when they get up to speak not to say anything about their multi-racial ideology because it is out of step with the trend of the times. Take the Department of the Interior - you would be astonished to know how many people have been found employment in the Republic of South Africa through that department If you read the Transkeian Annual you will find it on page 53. A total of 83 137 people was employed in the Republic of South Africa, apart from the mines, while On the mines we had 92 660. So the idea that the policy which we support on this side of the House has had a detrimental effect on the Transkeian labour system is devoid of all truth and reality. What the policy has done is to improve the relations between the Transkei and the Republic. The Republic now knows there are people in the Transkei ; before that it only knew that there were labourers in the Transkei. If you take the Department of Education I need not tell you how many teachers have been employed since 1964. If you read the report on the Department of Education you will find all these statistics, but if you go round the country you will find school buildings which have been erected by this Government. Before 1963 there were no such school buildings in all the primary schools in the Transkei. In consequence you will find that the number of schoolgoing children has increased considerably. Take the teachers - before this Government was established they had no pension rights whatsoever. In other words nothing was done to put them on the pension scheme. MR. J. M. DUMALISILE: What about the goodservice allowance? CHIEF MINISTER : You don't call that a pension scheme. The teachers today contribute towards a pension scheme and when they withdraw from their posts or are dismissed they are given their pension contributions. We have today about 5 401 teachers who contribute towards the pension scheme. Suppose this Government had not been established in 1963, do you think you would have this change in the policy towards the African people? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has criticised the Department of Agriculture on its policy. I have no doubt that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry will reply to those accusations in his policy speech, but I want to make a remark in this regard and say that there is nobody who does not see development in so far as agriculture is concerned, except the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his henchman. Much is being done within the financial means of this Government to activate agriculture in the Transkeian Territories. Afforestation, for example, is bringing us much improved revenue, and unfor25

of the Bantu Education Act and passed your own legislation?. It is the Transkei only, in the whole of the Republic of South Africa, which has its own Act dealing with the education of its children. To show that the Republican Government was not happy about the passing of this piece of legislation, there is a provision in the Bantu Homelands Government Act of 1971 that none of the homelands will interfere with the mother-tongue instruction without consultation with the Minister of Bantu Education. None of the Bantu homelands have changed the mother tongue to any of the two official languages, either English or Afrikaans, up to now in spite of their requests. You ought to thank this Government for what they have done for the Transkeian citizens. We have today about twenty towns which have been declared open for Transkeian citizens. The Transkeian Constitution Act of 1963 has made it possible for us to repeal the provisions of the 1923 Urban Areas Act which denied your own people the right to have property in the towns. If, before 1923 , you had a multi-racial policy in South Africa why was it not possible for the African people to purchase properties in the towns? The Urban Areas Act passed by the Union Government said that all the towns in the Union of South Africa were the property of the white people, but today even the hon. members of the Opposition are acquiring properties in these urban areas. Through the efforts of this Government the members across the floor and their henchmen elsewhere, who oppose this Government, are acquiring businesses. Could it be possible for you hon. members (you should now be sincere and tell us if it is possible) to acquire these properties were it not for the policy of this side of the House? We have motions on this side of the House which are very, very vital and important, because the members of the Government side are dealing with issues which really affect the daily lives of our people and they are saddled with responsibility which we do not find amongst the Opposition members. Take, for example, Mr. Chairman, the work which is being done by the Xhosa Development Corporation in establishing industries in the Transkei. As a result of the Transkei belonging to the black people we have about seven secondary or tertiary industries in Umtata, 18 in Butterworth, one in Lusikisiki, one in Cofimvaba, two in Umzimkulu, one in Baziya, two in Mount Ayliff, one in Qamata, one in Tsolo, one in Flagstaff and another in Mount Frere - a toal of 36 industries . These are not border industries but industries within the Transkei in which the Transkeian citizen can have shares in any of those companies. This Government is not interested in border industries because those industries will never belong to the black people of the Transkei. We are interested in the industries that are being established within the boundries of the Transkei. It is not necessary for me to give an account of all the businessmen who have, since 1963, emerged and taken up businesses that formerly belonged to the white people. These are well known to the Transkei people. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, may I now give you the figures of the moneys which have been spent by this Government towards social benefits. Before 1964 I do not know what the figure was, but our expenditure in 1964/65 was R1 500 000. This figure increased progressively during the years until during this financial year my Government is charged with the expenditure of R7 657 900. MR. K. M. GUZANA: How many people are getting these pensions, so tha we can work it out?

tunately the hon. members across the floor derive pleasure from criticising the Government and are not in a position to go round and see what is being done. You know very well that in this department your own people are in charge of the various sections of that department in the various districts, and I dare say that they are doing much to improve the economy of the country in so far as agriculture is concerned. It is not necessary for me to say much about the Department of Roads and Works because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition admits himself, as he did not criticise that department, that there has been much improvemen in so far as the roads and accommodation are concerned. During the last ten years we have been able to pass legislation ourselves rather than have legislation passed by other people in another place. We established the Transkei Development and Reserve Fund by the Act of 1964, which fund came to the rescue of the Government in times of drought. The Government was able to plough for the people on loan. Have you any precedent that you can quote of such assistance to the people? The Government has been able to employ the old people during drought periods and be in a position to pay them so that they have something to eat. Did that ever happen before? You know, the hon. members across the floor have criticised the Government for all this. Now, the question I would like to put to them is: Suppose they were an alternative Government, what would they do? Would you like to be an alternative Government, hon. members across the floor? (Interjections) Under what policy? A policy from Peking or Russia? (Interjections) That is why the people will not elect you to form a government. You will always remain a minority Opposition that opposes everything. The people will decide their fate, not you. The people elect the government. It is not the Opposition that is going to elect the government. The people have told you during the last two elections, 1968 and 1973, that they will not support your so-called multi-racial policy. The Transkei has passed its own Education Act of 1963. Mr. Chairman, there is dialogue going on next to me. Please come to my rescue. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I will solicit the House to maintain the dignity of this House. It has not failed to find out that since we have come into this House there has been going up and down by certain individuals who will not sit down and listen and uphold the dignity of the House. To make things worse, hon. members of high rank in this Assembly keep on having numerous dialogues. Please let us try to behave. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, before you interceded on my behalf I was saying that in 1965 this House passed one of the most important pieces of legislation which has ever been passed in this House, namely, the Education Act. Now, I ask this question : Who initiated that Act? Was it not the Government? In 1953 the Union Government passed the Bantu Education Act. There was a hue and cry right through the Union of South Africa against the provisions of this Act, the Bantu Education Act, and many of the members who were present at the time and accepted the Bantu Education Act are across the floor on the benches of the Opposition. I can name them now. They accepted the Bantu Education Act in spite of opposition from the Republican Africans, but the Transkeian Government came to the rescue of the Transkeian citizens and passed its own Act dealing with education. As a result, the people of the Transkei have had full confidence in the Government. Now, suppose you had not had your own government, could you have gone beyond the provisions 26

26

CHIEF MINISTER : I think you can calculate by the amount earned by each beneficiary. MR. GUZANA: How many are there? CHIEF MINISTER: I think the Department of the Interior will be able to furnish you with those figures. I am merely concerned with the amount of money which is being spent by the Transkeian Government which would not have been known had this government not been established . The position is, Mr. Chairman, and I want to make this clear, that having established our government in terms of the policy which made our people apply for the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, we are now in a position to know how much money is spent on our services. MR. GUZANA: May I ask you a question? CHIEF MINISTER : You can ask after I have given these figures. In 1964/65 the ordinary revenue contributed by the Transkeian people towards the services of the country was R3 309 467. This figure has increased over the years to a figure for 1972/73 of R9 990 786. This figure does not include in any way the revenue that should be coming to the Transkei from excise and custom duties. Now, had this parliament of ours not been established, could it be possible for us to know how much money came from our own sources and how much money was spent by the Republican Government on our services? I will now attempt to reply to some of the questions which were put to the Chief Minister by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He posed a question as to what this Government was doing about urban Africans. The urban Africans are a responsibility of the Republican Government, but I want to bring forward this submission that these people who are in the urban areas and reside in what is known as "locations" claim that they belong to some homeland and they pay allegiance to their homeland governments, but we are trying by all means to have contact with the Republican Government in order to see that the conditions of these people are improved. This was one of the matters which was discussed at the last interview between the homeland leaders and the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa. But I am not for dialogue with the Republican Government, as has been enunciated by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. What the Transkeian people want is to make laws for the amelioration of their conditions, and that has been the position during the last ten years in all the departments that fall under the Transkeian Government. We have nothing to discuss with the Republican Government on our education, nothing to discuss on our agriculture, nothing to discuss on our roads. We have full sovereignty in so far as those matters are concerned. We allocate funds towards these projects. We are quite aware that we get allocations from the Republican Government. That is by way of agreement with the Republic in terms of the 1963 Constitution. Now, Mr. Chairman, as regards our patriotism in relation to the Republican Government, I want to say that because of our geographical position we are bound to have close contact with the Republican Government in order to defend our own country. This has been a situation which has been brought about by the policy of South Africa over the years. The fact that we have our own government which makes its own laws does not in any way reduce our patriotism towards the Transkei. We shall have the white people side by side with us because we live next to them, and as a result we shall side by side defend our respective countries. After all, we are much concerned about the country in which we live, and the

rest of South Africa is our neighbour. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we have had ethnic groups in the Transkei since we settled on this land and skirmishes between one tribe and another were not uncommon at the time, but I do not think you can make a huge mountain out of an antheap in regard to the little misunderstanding which is taking place in Maluti. I am certain that the minds of certain people in that area have been misdirected and they probably think that since they came from Lesotho they can now take back Transkeian land to Lesotho. That is what we call the minds of children, and I don't think we should worry ourselves munch about that. The position of that area and the is clear ― that it belongs to the Transkei Chief Minister has made it clear to these people that they are on Transkeian land. Well, when people have been misdirected it is very difficult to put them on the correct road again. That is what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will find amongest his own group. I will come to them again, because I would like these people to come out so that we should know where they are. With regard to the other departments which have not been transferred to the Transkeian Government, it is interesting to find that in all of them the Transkeian citizens are being employed. I refer to Posts and Telegraphs, Railways and other departments. It will please you to know that as from 1st April the Transkeian Government will have its own section of the Information Service. That in itself is development. Now, coming back to the policies of the Opposition, I would like the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to tell me where the policies of his party end, because amongst his own supporters there are people who have declared this is the Democratic Party and the leader of this group who was appointed on the 9th (Interjections) I am coming to your policies to show that you are wolves in a sheepskin. I happened to come across a certain document which has been published by SASO which enjoys membership of this very group I am talking about. The leader of this group, a certain Ncokazi from Engcobo, is a staunch SASO supporter and you know they have a man who is in the background of their leadership, a man for whom he is acting. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: This is irrelevant. CHIEF MINISTER: I am sorry he is not here. Now, this is what I wanted to tell you. Before he was banned Barney Pityana once said that what SASO needs most is revival, revolution, and a rapid revolution. "Today we want to forge a united battle-front; whether we are guided by God or whether we are clever is not the issue. We are not reformists but revolutionists. Somewhere on the battle-front we will have the real revolutionaries. SASO believes it is better to die of nostalgia in a foreign country than to die a servant in your own homeland." Now they quote a sentence which is always uttered by my friend, the hon. member for Mount Ayliff, and they term it as follows:- "It is better to be master in Hell than to be a servant in Heaven .(Laughter) Now, hon. members across the floor, I want you to come out and tell the country what you are up to; whether you support your leader, whether these revolutionary principles are the principles of your party. If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his followers cannot dismiss these disgruntled members, the socalled members of his party, then we shall associate him with these views. We have not got this sort of thing on the Government benches. We are committed to carry out the mandate which we have from the Transkeian people. I can see that the hon. member for Engcobo is worried about this because I am revealing the secrets

27 27

and the Transkei Constitution is a result of the policy of the Republican Government of separate development. Had there been no policy of separate development there should never have been a Transkei Constitution. The relations between all the tribes have become more cordial than they have been in the past. What is happening in the Ciskei is merely the teething trouble of people who have no representative government and are now fighting for leadership. It is going to die very soon, as time goes on. We have had it amongest the Opposition members who have tried to have tribal politics in the Transkei, but without sucess. I think I have replied sufficiently to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. H. H. ZIBI : The position of Coloureds in the Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, thank you very much . Coming to the position of Whites and Coloureds in the Transkei I wish to say categorically that we as a Government have not drawn up our policy. Wait and see as we attain a further stage in our constitutional development. What is interesting in regard to the position of these people in the Transkei is the policy of the Republican Government, and as far as the Transkei is concerned it is to our advantage, because we are getting all the properties they own. There is provision in the Republican Government's policy that those Whites who are to assist in the development of the Transkei will be allowed to remain in the Transkei. I think I have replied sufficiently. MR. GUZANA: And the Coloured people? CHIEF MINISTER : The Coloured people are your own daughters' and sisters' children. I do not think you have ever heard any member of this Government pointing a finger at them. They are quite aware of that, but the policy of the Republic is that they must leave and go to the Western Cape. However, as I have said, Mr. Chairman, as far as the policies of the Transkei Government are concerned towards these people wait and see as we develop the Transkei constitutionally and are in a position to dictate our own policies. MR. GUZANA: That is leaving it in the air. You could give indications. CHIEF MINISTER: Finally, Sir, I wish to put an amendment:"That this House has full confidence in the Government." GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second the amendment.

of his organization. I do not call it a party, I call it an organization. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order I think the hon. the Chief Minister is completely out of order now. In passing he referred to these three members for Engcobo as communists. Now he is accucing me of an organization which I do not know. I think it is best known to himself. If, in fact, he is discussing the no-confidence motion he must discuss it, but if he is discussing the SASO organization, which is best known to himself, he is out of order. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I never said the hon. members for Engcobo were communists. All I said was that they were fellow-travellers of the communists. It is their views, their utterances, which make us draw these inferences. I said the hon. members across the floor are in a group headed by a supporter of SASO, a man who is right in the SASO organization. I mentioned him by name and I said it was Mr. Ncokazi. You cannot deny that. He is married to my younger sister, but that has nothing to do with this and we are going to expose him for what he is. He says so many things about me in this paper which I will not reveal to this House. I wanted to show the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that amongst the individuals of his party there are people who are far away from the policy which he advocates. As a matter of fact, I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and some of his moderate followers ought to join the Government party and leave these people so that we should face them. But I want to assure them that they might be uttering these statements for the last time, and in the process of the constitutional development of the Transkei they might find themselves in another place.. (Interjections) I do not want to read the derogatory language which is being used by these men who look like students of Peking and Russia, but I would advise my hon. friend who is highly respected by this side of the House to pick out those rotten eggs amongst those members of his party and throw them away. Mr. Chairman, I wish now to reply to the remarks about the incidents which took place in the Orange Free State between the Sothospeaking people and the Xhosa-speaking people — a matter which was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition during his speech. This was a very unfortunate situation which should never have arisen at all. My information is that this was caused by some irresponsible youths in the Republican towns of Aliwal North, Burghersdorp, Port Elizabeth, Queenstown, who acted as "totsis" on the mines. They attacked all the miners who left the mines to go to town and tried to get money out of them. (Interjections) I am giving an explanation, hon. member for Engcobo, and if you don't care for the explanation I think the sensible members of the Opposition would like to get this information. Then, when a Sotho was attacked by these young men the Sotho-speaking people took exception to this and they reported this to the compound manager. Trouble flared up when nothing came of this complaint and the Sotho attacked the Xhosa unawares. It was not an organized arrangement that there should be a fight between the two tribes. The matter has been investigated and both parties admitted their foolishness. Those who were the aggressors admitted their stupidity. Now, this was not a matter which had anything to do with the Transkei Constitution, as has been alleged by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. K. M. GUZANA: I did not say it had anything to do with the Constitution. CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, with separate development,

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned untill 11 a.m. on Tuesday 19th March 1974. TUESDAY, 19TH MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think the House must have noticed yesterday that the Paramount Chief of Tembuland, the hon. Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo, was not in the House and I notice that his seat is still vacant this morning. The reason is because he is marooned in Bumbane, where he resides that is, his place of residence on his farm. Anybody who knows the road from Bumbane, I think, will agree with me that he cannot get away from there. I move that his absence should be condoned

28

by this House and that he should be paid his sessional allowance. MR. K. M. GUZANA: I second that, Mr. Chairman, and would suggest that a helicopter be sent out for him. (Laughter) Agreed to. NOTICE OF BILL MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Wednesday, the 20th day of March 1974, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the establishment of a Transkeian Prisons' Service and related matters. NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed.

2

CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon members, I want to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, that this House has no confidence in the Government. The task facing the Transkei should be viewed from a broader outlook - that is the position of the Transkei in relation to South Africa, its population and the economy. How many Transkeians are living outside the Transkei and making their living in the Republic? Hundreds of thousands. For over ten years Vorster's Government has imposed laws on the people of the Transkei, and these laws have been imposed without the will of the people. The Transkei Government has imposed laws on the same people. This Government is satisfied with that sort of thing. That is the result of the apartheid policy which this Government has preferred to pursue. As a result of this policy the people of the Transkei have suffered immensely from poverty, from being treated in many respects as slaves. The Transkeian Government is indeed protecting the white man in South Africa, (Interjections) leaving millions of their fellowmen in the mud, chained on Robben Island and enduring untold miseries. The white man has told us plainly that he will maintain white supremacy in this country; that he will hold 87% of the land in South Africa. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: And then, what will you do? CHIEF MAJEKE: This land includes minerals, industries and the best fertile land, while the homelands envisaged by this apartheid policy, in which this Government is the boss-boy of Vorster, has neither of the above. Instead, more people from the Republic will be moved to the Transkei, thus making it worse than the Sahara Desert. You may be deceived by your big numbers inside this Chamber but I can tell you as I am standing here that I have better and more followers in South Africa and in the world as a whole than you have. CHIEF MINISTER: Nonsense! CHIEF MAJEKE : Why are you assisting the oppressive measures? I shall quote, Mr. Chairman, from the Daily Dispatch of 14th November 1972, where the hon. the Chief Minister said these words: "The policy of separate development was unacceptable to the United Nations and Western democratic countries and pressures were building up against South Africa. These would eventually lead to a confrontation between the South African Government and the homeland Government." The report went on: "Asked if he would drop his demand for more land if the South African Government did not hand over the three districts in the Transkei, Chief Matanzima said: 'What is independence without land? I will continue making the demands. The next generation might make bigger demands and perhaps

confront the Republican Government by demanding the whole of South Africa with no strings attached." MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: And what do you say to that? That is the Chief Minister's opinion P what is yours? CHIEF MAJEKE : Why do you still continue with the apartheid policy? That is the question I am putting to you. M/JUSTICE: Because you want to stand there and talk that nonsense . CHIEF MAJEKE : Are you digging graves for the coming generation? He is correct when he says separate development will end in conflict or confrontation, but his prediction of generations is too long. Multi-racialism is the only answer where all the people should stay together and share the land equally. CHIEF MINISTER: How can they share equally? There is not a piece of land which belongs to nobody in South Africa. CHIEF MAJEKE : There should be no superior government and inferior governments. If the white Goversment of South Africa would drop its way of thinking and meet us and thrash out this problem . . ' M/JUSTICE : Unfortunately they won't, and you know that very well. You gave up when you accepted this policy. CHIEF MAJEKE: . . . such things as enemies from outside and terrorists would fall away ... (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order. CHIEF MAJEKE : . . . and I could predict a bright future for all the races. All races must stand together in all respects, and we will then be able to fight the enemies together. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Hear, hear. CHIEF MAJEKE : We cannot fight together if we are separated in this respect. Mr. Chairman, I am now going to speak about land, the land which we now occupy. We have just been given a small portion of the land which has been allocated to us for occupation. We differ from the ruling party because the ruling party just accepted this small portion of land allotted to them although it has no minerals or other riches. You sell labour because you labour under the impression that the other side is not willing. I regard that as cowardice. You are afraid when this man just threatens you, without even attempting to go there. Conditions during the reign of this present Government have been very bad, even as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition stated, particularly in regard to stock. Since the inception of this Government it has been stated that there is overstocking in the Transkei, but I have never agreed with such a contention. The people who started this reduction of stock are usually sitting in their offices and they have no idea of conditions existing in the districts. They know nothing about the sales and nothing about stock losses. They simply stop the introduction of stock although they have no idea as to whether there have been good rains and whether there is plenty of grazing. What is required is attention to the economy. Cattle are bought from our neighbours at cheap prices and the market is flourishing here because the cattle are being sold, but these people who only sit at their desks with their pens in their hands prevent the introduction of stock. The people of the Transkei cannot make a living from mealies alone, as there is not enough land to plough. We have very little land for ploughing, and the little we have is not good land. The hon, the Chief Minister gave us a lengthy list of the number of people who have been able to obtain employmet during his term of office. In fact, he has produced a lengthy list, but how does that compare with the 29 29

number of people who are out of work? CHIEF MINISTER: We want people for agriculture and we cannot get them. CHIEF MAJEKE : What you now say is not known to us. CHIEF MINISTER: We are short of labour in the Agricultural Department. CHIEF MAJEKE: What we do know is that the people are out of work. In connection with the land question, the hon. the Chief Minister has been praised over the radio. Why should he be praised? What do they care, those people who give such praise to the Chief Minister? (Interjections) This is our Chief Minister. We don't except our Chief Minister to lead the people of the Transkei to destruction just because he has been praised. You are leading our people to this small piece of land, forgetting that the land in the big cities also belong to them. I will now turn to the matter of teachers, Mr. Chairman. The teachers of the Transkei find themselves in difficulty. When the inspectors visit the schools they give a report, and when such report criticises the work of the teachers the Government uses that as a punishment. Should that teacher be a principal teacher he will be demoted. I know it for a fact that certain teachers have been demoted. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : On a point of order. Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer the hon. Chief to the rules. It says in this booklet that it shall be out of order to use insulting and offensive language to any member. CHIEF MAJEKE: This results in the inspectors being unwilling to make a report, because it will be taken that they are the men responsible for such demotion. CHIEF MINISTER : What is to be done? We think of the child, not the teacher. CHIEF MAJEKE : I will not reply to that interjection. Talking about finance, a motion was moved last year in connection with the payment of compensation, but nothing seems to have taken place in that regard so far. I refer to those instances where a young man dies in the labour centres and compensation should be paid, but nothing materialises. How can we have confidence in this Government which does nothing about it? Another item I wish to raise is in connection with teachers' salaries. These salaries are sometimes just retained by the clerk who says he is not prepared at the time to hand over the money. That is ill-treatment, because usually these moneys are retained by the clerk because he first wants to do some other work. I don't know what is wrong wtih these clerks, because they don't know the addresses of these teachers and sometimes cheques are sent to the wrong addresses. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I want to say from the very outset that not only this House has full confidence in the hon. the Chief Minister and in our party, but indeed all the people of the Transkei have confidence in the leadership of our people; and not only the people of the Transkei, because I am not making any exaggeration when I say the whole world has confidence in the leader of our party. This is what I want to say, Mr. Chairman and members of this Assembly, about the role of the Democratic Party and I suppose that is why they will not understand the confidence this party enjoys. Here is a statement coming not from me, coming not from the members of the TNIP, but from somewhere: "The Democratic Party in the Transkei and elsewhere has been so weak in leadership that today it is hardly identifiable in the public mind as a future government." Mr. Chairman, I want to emphasize, and quite justifiably, this point - "in leader-

ship"; and significantly, Mr. Chairman and hon. members of this House, the statement goes on, and fortunately some of us have long realised this state of affairs: "It is a party that has lost its credibility, so much so that many of its members are in a state of uncerainty and confusion.” Mr. Chairman, I feel greatly concerned about the inherent weakness of the Democratic Party because as a governing party -- a governing party that believes in the principle of democracy we feel very unhappy when the Opposition is so weak. May I remind. and quite justifiably, the Democratic Party, and particularly the leadership of the function of the Leader of the Opposition. The main function of the Leader of the Opposition, really, is to be goading the Government all the time: Get on, you fellows, we are wasting the time of the country. But I must say the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will be delighted in attacking personally individual members of this party who are enjoying the confidence of the country, fortunately. MR. K. M. GUZANA: We are going to goad you more. You have not had enough. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The people of this area are very unfortunate to have this type of thing an Opposition that is not aiming at toppling the Government so that one day they will take over. What can we do even about the governing party when there is no opposition- What can you do about the Leader of the Opposition who is double-faced at a time really when the Transkei is entering into a new era, when the leadership of people must be a leadership with sincere objectives in leading the people? Why should the party itself, indeed, be satisfied to have a leader who chooses with all impunity to be the champion for the cause of other people and not his own people, when his own people are in destitution? To me it is a curious paradox that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition yesterday could have stood up all the time championing the cause of the top-dog at the expense of the underdog. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Were you here then? You don't seem to have heard what I said. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I don't want to believe that the Whites in South Africa need anybody in the person of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as a champion for their cause. They have got a strong government, a strong administration. Vorster is a very powerful leader, and de Villiers, to champion the cause of the Whites in this country. The position has become so unfortunate that some of us are experiencing sleepless nights about the position of the black man. For the last 300 years the black man has had no-one to champion for his own cause. One of the allegations made yesterday and I listened spell bound when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was speaking in this Assembly, trying to justify his hopeless stand that this House has no confidence in the Government - one of the allegations is that the Opposition , he said , stood firmly on the policy of multi -racialism , while the Government has been vacillating . I would like to put the position perfectly clearly , so that no-one can ever make any mistake in believing what the hon . the Leader of the Opposition said . He does not seem to understand for instance , what is really, really vacillation as opposed ... No, I must put it this way : He does not seem to understand , in fact he is quite incapable of being able to draw a distinction between vaccilation on the one hand and the elasticity and dynamism of a policy. Who can speak jubilantly and authoritatively about the static and sterile policy of a party for the last ten years of self-rule in the Transkei where this 30

policy for instance, remains static, with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition telling us all the time about the virtues of multi-racialism? I don't know if we can ba accused of being insane when we see vice and deadliness in the policy of multi-racialism, when we are told there is virtue in multi-racialism. The policy of the Government is not by any means vacillating. The policy of any government a government worthy to be called a government - must always be elastic and it must be capable of interpreting the national aspirations of the people, which national aspirations of he people are never static. That is why the people of the Transkei will vote overwhelmingly for the TNIP, because they know all the time when, I suppose, a new development or some new phrases in the Xhosa language may baffle some people, that the policy is dynamic and, of course, they know it is a healthy policy. MR. GUZANA: It might blow you up one day, because it is dynamite. ' MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And let me remind this House, Mr. Chairman, if you give me permission, I believe, as all the psychologists believe, that repetition is the basis of learning and so I am constrained to repeat what I have been saying since I came to this House four years ago ,and I am going to say it even for the benefit of the new members of this House so that they must never be impressed when they hear of the virtues of multi-racialism. Mr. Chairman, multiracialism as it is understood by the black man in the whole of Southern Africa simply means just one thing, and this one thing is that at all costs a black man is an underdog and the white man is the top-dog. This has been the position since a white man came to this country, and that is why (and that must not astonish you, hon. members) - and that is why you find that today all the black people, not only in the Transkei, feel that they are accepting the policy of separate development. There is no-one today, and even the Whites themselves are very, very unhappy to think that for the last 300 years the black man has been dominated by them. They are not happy, you see, even the Whites. Even the whole of the civilized world has begun to see reality in the policy of separate development, because it is a problem. The question of domination of a black man by a white man has been a problem for the last 300 years and many right-thinking white people have not been feeling happy about it. They are happy now to know that states have been created for the comfort and happiness of the black man, so that once in his lifetime he knows there is a place for him under the sun. Another point which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has raised which, indeed, has shocked me in discovering that he was displaying a woeful ignorance of this matter was the hon. the Chief Minister's return from America . I suppose - I don't know, but I hope I shall be excused by this House if I am not accurate - when the hon, the Chief Minister returned to this country from America I think - I don't know exactly ― he talked about Xhosaland. I would like to explain this because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition made reference to it without properly understanding the whole concept of the matter. To us, and I believe to the hon. the Chief Minister who is a shrewd politician, to ask for, really, a Xhosa state or Xhosaland is not exclusive. We are not talking in terms of having only black faces in the so-called Xhosaland. We have never at any time, unless people want to make a complete misrepresentation of facts when they know the truth about it . . . Mr GUZANA: What are you trying to say? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The hon. the Leader

of the Opposition is so concerned about what he really thinks is a multi-racial society . . . (Interjections) I am explaining what I mean. He is so worried about multiracialism, and, of course, the whole idea is absurd, but he was saying that because there was talk about Xhosaland that was a multi-racial society. What multiracial society are you talking about? The whole thing is quite clear, and, of course> everybody knows it except the mischief-maker. As far as separate development is concerned it has never meant, and never will mean in the future, that white people in a predominantly black state will be excluded. MR. GUZANA: Are you making a policy speech on behalf of the Government? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In the first place, it is not a new thing. You have a country like Zambia, like Tanzania; you have all the black states where you have black people governing, but you still have rightthinking people among the Whites from all over the world going there to serve, and they are serving the black Government loyally, and all is well. The same thing will be obtaining in this country of ours. Notice again what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said about this so-called multi-racialism of his. The mining industry he cites as a multi-racial society. Mr GUZANA: Nonsense! MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, I have actually written it down here, but I did not say it. The mining industry is multi-racial state because you have Blacks and Whites there. Because you have Whites and Blacks, and the Blacks are working under the white people,, how can you say that it is a multi-racial state? He talks again about the building trade being cited as an indication of a multi-racial arrangement, but if you look at the building trade, what is happening to our people? They never occupy any positions of authority. Can we be blamed, then, when we say we will have nothing to do with multi-racialism, as it is known and as it has been practised for the last 300 years? I was impressed, not because there was any logic or sense in the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, when he made reference to the growing animosity between the Xhosa and Sotho-speaking groups of people, and he said it was because of the policy of separate development. Who does not know, for instance, the policy of even the English-speaking people who dominated the political scene in this country ― that in order to succeed they had to devise a policy of "Divide and Rule" amongst our people? Who does not know, for instance, that there is a system of "indunas" there? Who does not know that there is a system of “indunas” appointed by the bosses, so that this "induna" goes about terrorizing the members of one group or another? Where is the policy of separate development? Mr GUZANA: May I put a question to this hon. member? In view of the fact that the hon, member accepts the principle of "Divide and Rule" and that that has been the basis of government in South Africa, how is the present policy of dividing the different racial groups in order to rule them different from the old-time principle MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, let me proceed as if there had been no am interruption. (Laughter) I concerned , and I have been concerned all the time since I came to this parliament when the Government side is dealing with matters of vital importance affecting, really, the black man - that is, the land issue . Mr GUZANA: Don't speak about land. That is the subject of a motion. 31

at the University of Fort Hare. What has the hon. the Chief Minister done to extricate those children that

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You have made reference to it, you see, that is why I am mentioning it. Mr GUZANA: And I was overruled. Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order in that the hon. member is seeking to anticipate a matter that is before this House by way of a motion, and he cannot be permitted to anticipate that motion. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I suppose the Chairman is allowing me to proceed with reference to the land? CHAIRMAN: Proceed with your speech.

were expelled? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It was because of your SASO. Mr MGUDLWA: Think of the lives and future and the academic careers of those students who have been placed on the altar of separate development the policy he is following, the so-called mini-Government of the Transkei. People are crying outside. Think, for example, in the location here, of the plight of the people in the location here, and the hon. the Chief Minister talked yesterday of the fact that he is trying to ameliorate the lot of the people of the Transkei, when you know that this morning early, at a most ungodly hour, there was a knock at the door: “Where is your permit? What are you doing here?" MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What were you doing there? (Laughter) Mr MGUDLWA: He wants to arrest me for trespass. How can a Transkeian citizen be arrested for trespass in the Transkei? (Laughter) Think of a European at the hotel, never molested by any policeman from England or anywhere. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Why did you go to the Transkei Hotel?

MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Thank you very I can never understand, Mr Chairman, much. Oppowhy the hon. the Leader of the sition in particular must always be misleading his own party so far as the land issue is concerned. CHAIRMAN: Next speaker, please. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, first and foremost, I have no confidence in this mini-Government of the Transkei. I have never had any confidence in it and I shall never have confidence in this Government. It must go, and I take over. (Laughter) Firstly, Mr Chairman, I want to state in the strongest terms and most uncompromisingly, if at all, that the three members from Engcobo strongly deprecate the remarks made yesterday by the hon. the Chief Minister, referring to them when, in fact, he was out of order and he was allowed and he drew unfounded inferences. We know, in fact, that his Great House wife's son is that TNIP he is leading. That is not the "indaba" of this House in a motion of no confidence. If, then, the hon. the Chief Minister wants to disinherit his Righthand House wife's son - that is, SASO - he must not smear SASO to the members of this House. (Laughter) . Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Your leader made a statement this morning. Did you read it? Mr MGUDLWA: If ever at all there is a marriage of convenience which was contracted by him and the writer of an article which appears on the front page of the Daily Dispatch of 13th March 1974, reading thus: "It was obvious that the dissidents were determined to set up a SASO party in the Transkei." If then, that marriage was contracted in collusion and with a common purpose, we dissociate ourselves with that. The

Mr MGUDLWA: I have got my sister at the location. Why can't I stay with my sister? Now, there he claims to be ameliorating the lot of the Transkeian citizens. Again, I come to the Department of Justice. The hon, the Minister of Justice is aware of my remarks last year that is why his Department is not taking steps MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Aware of your question, not your remarks. Mr MGUDLWA: Why are the Transkeian police not accommodated in these Transkeian towns? Is it because the hon. Minister is occupying the mansion there at Tolofiya? (Laughter) And why are there no commissioned officers in his force? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Wait until you hear my policy speech. Mr MGUDLWA: It doesn't matter. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It matters because you know nothing. Mr MGUDLWA: Why hasn't it been done in the last ten years? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I haven't been in the Department for the past ten years. Mr MGUDLWA: What have you been doing in your Department? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I have been trying to arrest people like you. Mr MGUDLWA: There are claims that there are magistrates in your department. I beg to call them "tribal" magistrates, because they never sit in a case where a white man is accused. This magistrate will be placed in a position of glory and disgrace in that he is most embarassed when a white magistrate, if a white accused has to appear, will have to be imported from another district. Where is the confidence there in this miniGovernment. I place an indictment now at the door of the Department of Education, because I assume that a Government has a moral duty and it is obliged to the people it is supposed to govern. Think of the plight of the parents and the children - that is, the Std. 6 children - last year. When I was doing my Std. 6 I got my results the day the schools closed - that is, in December. My parents had nothing to worry about because they knew I had passed and they made all the neces-

Democratic Party has got its own solutions to its own problems. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point the to Chairman, of order, Mr I appeal order. Chair to bring the hon. member to The motion under discussion is one of no confidence in the Government. It is not on the discussion of membership or non-membership of SASO. For that matter, the hon. member who is speaking himself connived at a statement attributing SASO to their leader — that leader leading a party outside the Transkei who is said to be a member of SASO - and he has never disputed that, so let us be in order, Mr Chairman. Mr. MGUDLWA: I think the hon. member was not here. It was his brother who was out of order. Having no confidence in this mini-Government, I wish a referendum could be called of all the Transkeian people to test whether the people accepted the present political system which deprived them of their dignity and rights as citizens of South Africa, not only the Transkei, but of South Africa. I place my indictment firstly on the doorstep of the Chief Minister's Department (I am glad you have entered) to show that, in fact, his Department stands condemned in the eyes of South Africa and the Transkei as a whole. Think of last year's troubles 32

34

144

444

sary arrangements for me to go and further my educattion. When did the Std. 6 results come out last year, and in what form ? They came out in dribs and drabs. In one and the same school there were supplementary results for Std. 6 when no children ever wrote supplementary examinations. When I had to send my child to an institution I could not buy anything for him because I was not sure whether he had passed or not. Where is the confidence in this mini-Government? Many thing have been levelled here by the mover of this motion, but to my dismay nothing has been replied to by the last two speakers.

der, Mr Chairman, I want to refer a question to that hon. gentleman , CHAIRMAN: A question or a point of order? CHIEF SIGCAU: A question. CHAIRMAN: I will allow a question later. CHIEF SIGCAU : He does not know the difference between rehabilitation and stabilization.

Mr MGUDLWA: There are people on the spot and the people who are going to be concerned are not consulted. And what about the appalling state of accommodation these people are accommodated in? The hon. the Minister of Agriculture should take a walk to Engcobo and go to the sawmill in the forest and see how the labourers are housed there. How are my people treated when the accommodation is provided by means of the erection of a few planks? I have also heard from those people who have voted for me that people who live in those forests, their day is very long. These aged men and women are instructed to chop down a certain number of trees a day. If this Government can permit such things to be done, can it be trusted? I will now go on to attack the Roads and Works Department. After these torrential rains I expected that the hon. Minister concerned with roads, as well as the Cabinet, would try to visit these places and see what can be done. If the hon Min.ster says there is rain at present, I will remind him that last year there was snow in Matatiele bue means were found to remove the snow from the roads. I do not trust these traffic officers. There are cars which are said to belong to these traffic officers. Imagine what these officers are doing! They will stop people in their cars and ask them unnecessary questions and inspect them even if they are not carrying dagga in their cars. The people who own cars now state it would appear that Satan is visiting their homes. These people say that they prefer those officers who were formerly Provincial Administration, instead of the present traffic officers who will again stop a car they had inspected a very short time before. In the Townships Board there are certain officers known as inspectors, and these inspectors will visit these residents and make their remarks about their houses so much so that even the poor widows are compelled to pull down their houses. Mr D. H. MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, yesterday we were faced with two leaders in this House. Today we have heard some speakers on the subject which was dealt with yesterday. There are one or two things I want to crystallize about yesterday's speakers. One was the hon, the Leader of the Opposition and, fortunately, the hon. the Chief Minister spoke immediately after him. Now, from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition we had certain theorems, and from the leader of the governing party we had a rebuttal. In case anybody regards my comment as offensive, I would like to say that anything said after these two leaders had spoken would be almost like carrying coals to Newcastle, and therefore, if there is going to be any comment, it will be based on the debate yesterday. Now, before there is any misjudgment I stand here to state that this full House here has confidence in the Government side, because yesterday I watched patiently to hear what was the alternative to the questions raised by the hon. the Chief Minister.

Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who moved the motion? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You had better say "our leader”. Mr MGUDLWA: Why should you be worried? It suffices to say "the mover of this motion". (Interjections). CHAIRMAN: Carry on, hon. member. MR. MGUDLWA: I come now to the Department of the Interior. Woe betide that department! Why do I say that? Because it handies the general elections. I think this was the third general election in the Transkei. I have never heard of any general elections. I think this was the third general election in the Transkei . I have never heard of any general election going on smoothly without complaints about the election of members of this Legislative Assembly. I have no confidence in this mini-Government, I repeat. Why should the machinery of elections be so made up as to be composed of headmen, and that they must tell people who to vote for? For example, I had to go to one polling station where I found a headman seated just inside and he was telling the illiterate people who did not know who to vote for, and he had the photographs of the three candidates for the Engcobo electoral area who this mini-Governwere chosen by the governing side ment. When I tried to explain to this headman that he was not supposed to be there, that he just had to keep order outside, he said: "I am a chief here." And he was just a headman ! (Laughter) He told me he was going to ring the police. I told him to ring immediately and then he could sign his warrant of arrest himself if he liked. He rang the police and they came. I showed them exactly what the procedure is in so far as sitting inside the polling station is concerned. They told him: "You are not supposed to sit inside"; and he had to swallow his pride and go out. The people outside laughed at him and he was just disgraced after that. Now I come to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. Really, I have no confidence in that department. First and foremost, the way this stabilization is carried out in the districts is appalling and it causes widespread and untold misery and animosity amongst the residents of the location. I think about two weeks back I managed to attend a meeting in one location where the Ncora irrigation scheme has to operate. The residents of the surrounding locations were called in one place and they were pointing fingers at each other and at the agricultural extension officers. There was a I don't know by whom. map which had been drawn Now and again they were referring to this map, but the map was keeping quiet. It could not answer any of the questions. (Laughter) Because of lack of consultation with the people, because the people were never consulted as to where the residential areas should be CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: On a point of or-

One or two who spoke outside yesterday stated they would be heard today, but instead of answering the question: What is your policy? they have been as mute and dumb as the crocodiles in the Limpopo waters. The so-called political ants crawling on the crocodile's skin whilst the rest must cheer and smile, when there is ab33

the Opposition as a whole, for that matter. In a graphic attempt before I left here, I tried to show that this Opposition is fragmented despite the fact that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition himself criticises fragmentation, as though there is nothing like Balkanization. Let me remind this House, therefore, of our purpose.

solutely nothing to smile about. Now, to go back to those two speakers yesterday, here is a fundamental question which needs an answer: What is your policy? What does the electorate say? Whom does the electorate support? Now, this question was answered by an array of fallacies yesterday, Mr Chairman, purported to have come from the hon, the Leader of the Opposition who started by saying he was going to define what democracy was, and whilst I sat attentively listening I did think he was going to come out with a definition of democracy which would satisfy the whole House. Whilst democracy has not fulfilled its objectives and ideals I think I am entitled to say I have my own way of looking at his fallacies. It is this that I think I am entitled to say that whether he spoke from the bottom of the cellar or the top of the roof, some of these fallacies are definitely illogical - illogical , Mr Chairman, in the sense that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not take account of the fact that we have not occupied the Transkei within the last ten years only, but on a historical examination we can go back to two thousand years , to the question when the ten virgins were tested for their sincerity . A judgment came that five were wise and the others were not. Besides these two thousand years to which I have referred, I wish to refer to the 300 years of South African history in which, without even mentioning what has happened within that period of 300 years , I would say that the rats have been squealing right along the line and after the squealing and squeaking the question was asked : What do you want ? and the answer was : Separate development. And that is the reply to the Opposition . Now that we have not had the alternative from the Opposition , a poser was put by the hon, the Chief Minister . Number One, he dissected the Opposition into the following : Those whose policy is like a curtain on a window, and those who step across the party line and jump like the Alpine goats with bearded mentality. And again yesterday this question was not answered. With all this fragmentation , on which leg do you really stand? I really thought when the hon. member for Engcobo was fumbling in his pocket that he was going to produce a leg, but I was mistaken . (Laughter). Mr Chairman , this House must be innocent of the fact that the Opposition has got a real purpose , which the hon, the Minister of Education submitted to them , and that is to wilfully submit to the governing side their weaknesses . I need not repeat here, therefore , that what we heard yesterday was a dissertation on people's personalities, which I regarded as a hollow mockery of the new cynicism of that side. Then again , there is the view which should be respected by this House — that is, when a man respects another there is always a question where big minds think together. Would you imagine yesterday that this side of the House was labelled as a house with a Nongqause mentality ? Let us see what the Opposition chooses . They choose co-habiting with the other races of this country despite what has been given to them. I am inclined to think that this cohabitation is a negation of the principles laid out in the Bible. The debate was adjourned.

Let me ask these few pertinent questions. The electorate away from here will be asking for a solid answer from both sides of the House. The first question is whether we shall lead our people wisely. Shall we be a Socrates or shall we be a pig and wallow in the mud, because people without a policy are like a people who are blind, and therefore how can the blind lead the blind? The second question is, encaged as we are, the pertinent question is: Shall we see stars or shall we see mud? Now, Mr. Chairman, this is casting no aspersion on anybody but I think I want to go back to this question very rapidly. Who was responsible for colonization? Are Africans in this country responsible for what took place in Europe? Must Africans in this country remain idle when there is a change in the world? What is this solid dogmatism and scepticism that will not allow a man to change when a change is necessary? Now, if these questions could be answered I want to venture further. The Indians had an independence of their own in India, the Chinese their own, the Japanese their own; and through sheer force the Europeans thought these nations would not even attempt to fight. Military minds stopped the Italians in Ethiopia some time, and, Mr Chairman, that is the crux of the matter today: Are we going to fight or are we going to live peacefully? Now, the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei said he wants to live peacefully with his neighbours, but he wants the maintenance of the dignity of the people and the homeland which he leads here. Is this a biological accident or incidence? Let the Africans in the Transkei go back to the kaross. Yesterday an indictment was made that this side of the House had absolutely no care for the Coloureds. Would you believe it? And yet, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was speaking, the Daily Dispatch had already printed this article which I shall quote briefly:"Housing for Coloureds. We would like to thank the Chief Minister of the Transkei, Chief Kaizer Matanzima, for the part he and his Government have played in the housing struggle for Coloureds." This is Dr. Sharpley. Now, when doctors agree, who has anything else to say? (Laughter) Well now, I appreciate the fact that the ventriloquists say some of them are fools, but I am almost positive that with the greater development of the Transkei some of my friends will be professors. I have mentioned the historical relationship of the countries abroad and what is taking place in the Transkei. We are struggling with the legacy of the past, instead of tackling the job which is the task before us here - the task of realizing that even in a flower there are different petals and different kinds of flowers. Each in its own self knows that it will produce a legacy, and on the other hand there are people who, even though biologically united, refuse to resolve their differences, and when their leader actually welds them together the psychological differences or complexes amount to: Let us go back to multi-racialism , although there is that domination which they accept themselves. Must, therefore, my Chief Minister be criticized for any versatility, I ask, when with the same breath the Opposition says: Let us live together with all of them? At the same time they are afraid of being swamped. I quote the words of the hon, the Leader of the Opposition the other day: The essence of the

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion was resumed . Mr D. H. MLONYENI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, shall we be reminded that when we last departed here the subject was the vote of no confidence and I do not think that this side of the House could have entered on this subject had it not been for the anxiety of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, or 134

those former leaders, still stand strong and say that this thing is not acceptable to the people. There were people who were good orators and because of the brilliancy of their speeches and their truthfulness these people were arrested. To date those people are still imprisoned. leaders who would Other leaders were introduced follow the policy of apartheid. The policy of separate development or apartheid is unacceptable to the black people. That is well known to the members of this House and the white people who are in this House, as well as to those outside, white and black. Those are inspiring people with a fallacious idea that it is something good and acceptable to the people. We do know that these people who are now speaking know truly that this policy is unacceptable, and it is oppressive to the people. When the hon. the Chief Minister spoke, he said that this policy was opening up work opportunities for the black people. When you compare the numbers of people, there are few who have had these opportunities to obtain work. If only a few people have this advantage and the majority of the people do not, the people cannot understand this policy. The hon. the Chief Minister mentioned that six police stations have been handed over to the Transkei Government, and he also made mention of magistrates and assistant magistrates who number about 16 and also legal assistants. All that is good, but it makes no proper arrangement for the people because it is a privilege which is enjoyed by a few people only. You heard me when I said that was good, but it was only enjoyed by a few people and the majority of people are strangled. The hon. the Chief Minister also made mention of the increased number of children attending school, as well as the number of teachers. We admit all these things are there, but are not his doing. It is at the desire of the people who are anxious to obtain education. In reply to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition the hon. the Chief Minister said those people who are in the Ciskei are the baby of the Ciskei and not of the Transkei Government. We regard the people who live in the urban areas as belonging to us and we should take cognizance of the interests of those people, because they are the children of the Transkei and they are only there in order to work. They stay in the Republic in order to earn a living. The prevailing tendency, as far as the people are concerned, is that a person should live and earn a living where he desires. It is not fair that this thing should be changed to the advantage of other people, whereas the people concerned are not interested . The hon. the Chief Minister spoke about progress in agriculture and he stressed the aspect of forestry. What he said is true, but what progress has been made by the citizens of the Transkei so that you can point to it and say: This is the progress that has been achieved by the Transkeians? The food we eat comes from the Transvaal; vegatables we get from Durban and fruit from Cape Town and East London. Where is your own produce?

matter is that political independence, economic independence cannot stand alone. Whoever said these are the aspects of society that make human beings? Supposing, even, that this is the supposition, I ask once more: Suppose we get political supremacy, economic supremacy in this country, would we therefore gain the whole world? What shall it profit the Opposition to gain the whole world of the Republic and lose their own souls in the Transkei? I believe my stature condemns me to be so tall among men of such low stature, and I must sink into the position of a dwarf when greater men than I who stand here will educate me further, lead me to pastures new and pastures fresh, instead of listening to stale and stereotyped dogmatic statements which have proceeded from the Opposition for the last ten years, whose echo sounds from those who are silent, who do not raise up their hands or vote for this Opposition. In regard to policy, I want to offer this much - the Opposition will merit my sincerest appreciation, and I am prepared to cross the floor any moment if the Opposition offers this House a reasonable policy, but if present knowledge and scientific acquisition are such that with the modern acquisitions of mankind we are not safe from our own mental make-up, we are afraid of our own words, where shall we go for rescue? Is it, therefore, going to be warfare or peaceful co-existence ? This is the last question. This House will therefore think of all the hindlegs of an ass and tell the Opposition that if they have nothing to say they must come back to this side of the House. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to take part in the debate on this motion which has been moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. In support of what he has stated, I say we have no confidence in this Government. Since 1964 this motion has been motivated. We have always clearly outlined the policy of multi-racialism and we do not waver. We are direct in our speech and we state our policy clearly year by year. The last speaker questioned us on how we are going to continue with our policy. In our policy we maintain that all nations resident in South Africa should live together. The last speaker criticized multi-racialism greatly. He is of opinion that we desire co-habitation. His desires are not our policy, but it is true that no laws can be made in regard to the manner in which people should sleep. The reason why I state this is because the hon. member for Kentani seems to think that co-habitation is the desire of our policy. When we speak, we consider present conditions. We do not say we have been misquoted by the newspapers. The hon. the Chief Minister states that all the people accepted separate development. This is being disputed that all the people of South Africa have accepted separate development. It has been repeatedly said that we on this side are decreasing in number, That may be true, but we know the reasons leading to this state of affairs. This apartheid policy has been so embellished as to mislead the people. It has certain individuals for whom it provides a good standard of living. It is those people who derived such great benefits who stand in front of people and tell them of the virtues of this separate development policy. From the year 1913 the true leaders objected to this thing. In those days it was known as the "Colour Bar". As time went on the name of this colour bar was changed in order to suit the people. Not very long ago it was known as "apartheid". When it was realised that this was not welcomed by the people,

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are a farmer yourself. You should know. MR. JAFTA: I am making reference to the people generally, not to a particular individual. We are talking of the people not of individuals. (Interjections) He also spoke about the Reserve Fund and stated that this fund was made to provide for times of difficulty and drought. All that is very well. I do not fight against the Reserve Fund because all governments have these funds, and we should follow suit. He mentioned certain regulations promulagted in the Transkei which have been passed in this House. As far as I can observe, all these rules which have been promulgated come directly from the

it was called "separate development". It is still the old oppression of the black person. We, together with

35

Republic. There are certain rules which you could make, but you have not done so up to now. We have been sent by the electorate to bring to your notice the question of moneys in regard to compensation which have been withheld from the recipients. Since the inception of this House this request has been made, and you promised assistance, but now you tell us that this request has not been granted. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are talking from ignorance. That money has nothing to do with the Republican Government.

MR. JAFTA: What I am saying is this: Why do you not push through the desires of the people if you are the Government? We have always maintained that the apartheid policy is unacceptable altogether to the black man. This will clearly show to you that as we stand here we are the true representatives of the people. There is the fact, however, that in their heart of hearts those people who support our policy of multi-racialism fear that something else might happen. The black people naturally are proud of their colour. This is clear from the fact that through this period of 300 years we are still maintaining our own colour. What we know of the black people is that they are proud of their colour and it is their desire that it should remain so. All the things that happen, even if the black people live side by side with Whites, does not imply that something else will happen. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise. The last speaker is attacking the Transkeian Government for the oppressive laws, as if it is responsible for those laws. He does not know that anyone who gets this lump sum is free to ask for any amount. He goes further to say this Government cannot be trusted because it has done nothing for them. While he is speaking he is enjoying the right which was given by this Government. You and your sons are now flourishing. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. DIKO : This Government has to be trusted. I am speaking now with all respect to this Government. Now I have a serious position because I have to educate some of these ignorant people in this House. I have come back to save the people of the Transkei while there is still time. Now, I will first educate these people as to the history of this Government. Lastly, I will dissect Mr. Guzana, not as an individual but as a man standing for a principle. Now, this House is quibbling over a nonentity. Today we are looking forward to independence and I think everybody who is a Transkeian must look forward to independence. Thirdly, I will have to educate the hon. members of this House on the

tunate that people will not study events. While we are going along this path of independence we must study the situation as it arises. Once the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland said to me: This business of an Opposition party will delay independence. At the time I did not understand him fully, but now I realise he was talking the truth. So we are trusting this Government because it is set on the path which will ultimately lead us to a free state of our own and that is why we are trusting it. CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please do not indulge in your discussion in anything that pertains to the coming motion of independence. MR. DIKO: Now I will stop that and follow my next point. History runs this way: When the Dutchmen, the Afrikaners, were forced by the English to trek to the Transvaal, at no stage in their lives would they tolerate a black man sitting with them in the same parliament. Proper relationships between master and servant will be maintained. So this Government is giving an opportunity to the black man to be what other nations are, and the Paramount Chief of Rhode, with his followers, has to be trusted because he is maintaining that ideology where we are going to a stage where we shall be independent. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Why did you want to kill him ? (Laughter) MR. DIKO: Certain henchmen of a Guzana type went round and made a plot to put some of his strong men into trouble, and Mr. Guzana was in that plot (Interjections) So he cannot speak, because I am still coming .. MR. GUZANA: On a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman, I call upon this hon. member to verify and prove that statement, otherwise he must withdraw it unequivocally. MR. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, I will proceed as if nothing has been said. CHAIRMAN : I will direct you, please, hon. member, not to name any hon. member in this House, so please withdraw that statement. MR. DIKO : Which statement? OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Withdraw! MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, I will withdraw the name of the hon. member, Mr. Guzana, and I will say . . .. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the allegation was to the effect that I made up a plot in order to involve members of the Opposition in a murderous attempt. That is the sentiment of the expression which has to be withdrawn, otherwise the hon. member must prove that allegation. MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, I have now withdrawn the reference to the name of Mr. Guzana and I am proceeding with my speech in the House. We are not in court where we are asked to prove things. (Laughter) He must first prove, because he said I was the man who was involved and he did not prove it. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I think we should pass over that phase now and the hon. member should continue. MR. DIKO: Hon. members, at no stage did a country which is aspiring to independence ever allow an opposition, so the existence of an opposition party is rather a nuisance in this Chamber. (Laughter) It is delaying the purpose and intention of this self-governing state. We get some ignorant men who have never at any stage understood politics and have never been in politics, who rise to the politics of the Transkei like mushrooms people who have never been there in the days when the Convention and the Congress were struggling and

polices. First and foremost, the hon. member for Port St. John's, Mr. Maninjwa, seconded by the Paramount Chief of Tembuland, requested that we must be given selfgovernment on separate development. So what we are now concerned with is not to criticize the Government on the policy of the Republic. We are concerned with building a Transkei. The white people of South Africa have said it many a time through the annals of history that anybody who wants to sit in the white parliament in Cape Town will find it over their dead bodies. What idiots would continue after such a statement to say they want to go to Cape Town? These people have said they would give us our own room and Dr. Verwoerd came to this Transkei and said : We are giving you room to develop to the highest ranks of life. So what we are doing now is to build a state. At the moment we are being assisted by the Whites. You see, it is most unfor36 36

not put on him the fault of the Republican Government. Now you see, Mr. Chairman, you must not always curb me because I am here to educate the ignorant members. (Laughter) In two or three years we want to be independent. At the most it may be five. Now, why should the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, because of a decision where the Leader of the Opposition will be paid a certain allowance as long as it is a Guzana • • Do you realise that was not done by the Transkeian Government? It was done somewhere by his brothers, and the purpose of that is definite and it must be understood now, if it was not understood before. It is just to buy him out as an attorney speaking the language of the oppressor. He must continue to perpetuate the master and servant dogma of the Republican Government in these territories. He must decline the offer, unless it is given to someone even to that SASO man. We cannot have men bought over in these territories. We want men to be given every allowance on the merits of the case. Now, he is passing a vote of no confidence in this Government, but a vote of no confidence has been passed by certain members of his party, so according to those members he is not supposed to be sitting there pretending to be a leader. He is not a leader because he has been rejected by his own party, and this House must reject him accordingly.

striving for the rights of the black man. These ignorant louts must be allowed to cross over and help us attain the status which we want. Let them call it a "pondokkie”; let them call it whatever they want, but the purpose is that it is a platform. We can lead the people of the Transkei somewhere. GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear. MR. DIKO: We have always wanted to get somewhere. We today still want to get somewhere. Now, who will doubt that since the inception of the Transkeian Government there have been no people sent to Robben Island, no African has ever been sent by the Minister of this territory? We have specific example. He has sacked some of them because they got into wrong circles, and instead of being thankful they have turned against him. I am calling no-one by name but I tell you these SASO men are not in SASO because they know politics, but because they want their names to be big in the land. What we want is to allow the leader of the governing party and those who follow him to get us to Canaan. What we want is to get milk and honey like all other human beings. Yes, we have been underdogs in this country for 300 years. Now, do you want us to remain for another 300 years serfs in this country? So I am asking this House to unanimously pass a vote of confidence in the leader of the governing side. Now, there is an unfortunate state which unfortunately the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not understand, and he should understand it. Separate development is not the policy of Kaizer Matanzima. (Interjections) You don't know - you are a follower of Doubt. (Laughter) I know it is not the policy of Kaizer Matanzima . (Interjections)

CHAIRMAN : I will draw the attention of the speaker who is on the floor now to regulation 40 of the Standing Rules, which reads : "A member shall not make a personal charge or use offensive or unbecoming words in reference to any member of the Assembly." MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, why did you allow him yesterday to make reference to me? CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member please comply. MR. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, I have not referred to any. body by name specifically. I have only made reference to a leader who is not worthy to be a leader. Should somebody rise up from the mushrooms of Engcobo and declare himself a leader then that man takes over. That is all I am saying. He should be given this allowance. If he is a man accepted by his party he must enjoy the allowance given in this Chamber. I am not concerned about whether a man by the name of - what was it? is not a leader, but I am here as a veteran. I have known politics and I have studied politics . There are people who think changing from one party to another is a sign of weakness. I want to excuse those people because they do not know politics. I believe a politician, a real politician who is a statesman, must always go along with the views of the people. If the electorate of Qaukeni region say they will follow the views of the leader of the TNIP and Cromwell Diko (although I won't mention him because they say I must not mention names) - if they say they will support the TNIP then nobody must worry about why I am in the TNIP. It is the mandate from the electorate and whosoever doubts must look at the figures of the votes obtained in the election campaign, so I am standing here with full assurance that I am speaking the language of the people and I will continue to speak the language of the people. After the brilliant speech by the hon. the Chief Minister on his return from America, people realised he was speaking the language of the people - vox populi. You don't know these things, but you must know them. We want independence and we want to get somewhere. Here is the last point: These few hon. members who are so weak, as you heard the last two speakers from the DP side, you can feel even the way he speaks that he has no confidence in himself and what he is saying. Now, look at the hon. member from

CHAIRMAN : Order, hon. member for Engcobo. Hon. members, I request these hon. members who want to make a noise to desist from doing this. I am reluctant to cause some of these members to march out but I will be compelled so to do. Please continue, hon. member. MR. DIKO: Now, Mr. Chairman, I honestly and sincerely want the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, when he speaks of confidence of no confidence, to look into his own house. I was a follower of his. Where am I today, and why? Where is Mr. Bubu, Dr. Bala? Even the two paramount chiefs who are still with him are not there because they want to be with him. He is a lone voice speaking in the desert alone. He must realize that at the beginning he must learn about politics. Now, the warning of the African people (not my warning you must be very careful, hon. members of the House, you must not say I am warning him) is that the people of the Transkei want now to get somewhere and will tolerate no nonsense from anybody - anybody who is going to be a stumbling block. These people must get where they want to get and they will follow anyone who is leading them to what they want to get. Now, a man who is a white "boetie" must continue to be a white "boetie" somewhere else, and not in this Chamber. We are not speaking with a double-edged tongue; we are sincerely saying the white man who wants to stay in the Transkei can stay. The Coloureds who are our nephews must stay. Now, what is important is this: When a stage comes for us to be a state, we shall make proper laws. At no stage was a Transkeian chief ever a dictator. I am speaking as a royalist, I am not a commoner. (Laughter) At heart a man of royal blood loves everybody. Now, be he a poor man or be he a rich man, they are all alike. No chief in these territories has ever known any line of colour, so when you accuse the paramount chief who is leading this party you must

37

Emboland. They have got good roads and bridges made for them. They have got windmills and they will not support the Government who is providing these things for them. They are saying many things, but they have not been detained as we were for a certain time, and this Government is not doing anything to them and scrutinizing them, so all I am saying now is: Let us all get together and solve the party differences. We are not a state yet. You will revive your party differences after we have become a state. MR. P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I associate myself with the motion of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, when he stated that this House has no confidence in the Government. In fact, no-one will ever have confidence in this Government until death. I am sorry I have to speak after the last member, because he is like a person who died and then rose again. We do not speak about people who are resurrected. I will not speak about people in this House, I will speak about leaders such as Tiyo Soga who said that all nations should be saved. The reason we are gathered here is because of a certain fortunate incident which occurred during the time of Ngubencuka, when a star came over Umtata and all the people were conducted to Umtata. The Tembus refused to follow Nongqause and this is the second Nongqause. Eeven the previous Nongqause came through the activities of the white people. Freedom was preached and the people were told to kill their cattle. Those people who preached that doctrine were exactly like this Government. At that time the people were told to kill their cattle and all the dead would come to life again. I make this allusion because what we are facing today is Nongqause. Our people are being sold out. They are working under influx control under some Afrikaner and they are paid at the rate of 50c. only. This Government will never be trusted because it has failed to do anything which would be of benefit to us. I met a youngster in town here. He greeted me and I asked him where he came from. He said he was from Bethany and he had been recruited by Telona. He stated that he was digging some potatoes and when he had worked for a month he was paid only R5. That happens to the children of the Transkei. This youngster said that when we accepted self-government he did not think we were accepting a government that would kill them. Telona is the child of separate development. Our people die at Clan William and other places because they have been sold by you. (Interjections) I am in this House to right this wrong. It is better for me to remain on the sagon so that I direct its course. All the members of the TNIP are just like that Nongqause who misled the people. You don't even think about your own children who go up and down looking for work and obtain nothing for their benefit. You are the Government, so why don't you do away with this influx control? (Interjections) I cannot speak to the Republican Government. It is you who hold a higher position and you should speak to them. We are not Pharisees like you. You have introduced something here which I do not know, which is called the XDC. You have brought this thing by which means you have come to kill our people because you enrich the white people by buying their properties. You say these houses should be bought by these poorly paid people who are only paid 50c. Where must they get the money to buy properties like that? There is a store in Engcobo with a very large building which was bought for a certain amount. Now the XDC is to divide this property

the XDC not sell that property for the amount they paid for it, intead of selling to the black people at a higher price? These are dilapidated buildings. Why do we have to find the money to buy them? I must warn you: Don't say you are doing something for the people when you are doing nothing. It is stated there are two roads - one broad and the other narrow. The broad road leads to destruction and the narrow one to salvation. We will never depart from the truth even if there be big rains and the rivers are flooded. We will never depart from the truth and God will never desert me. You have been in the government for ten years and yet there is no difference, because even today we are being flogged and now you are asking for something else, something which is strange to you. You are turning over a stone which may uncover an ants' nest. You do not know what you want and I am going to tell you what you want. I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that we have no confidence in this Government. They are now changing the way of thinking of the people. In the Mqanduli district the veterinary officer found us inoculating our stock during May and now the Department of Agriculture has altered the time for inoculation and warned us to have our stock inoculated during the ploughing season. When we made requests about it we were told they would not depart from the instruction given by the white people as far as the time for inoculation was concerned. Why people are raising objections is because they are required to inoculate during the ploughing season in September. What will they plough their lands with, because they cannot even get tractors? The people are complaining and saying that representations should be made, but even when the regional authority refers this matter to the Department those people reply that the white people are refusing to alter the time. At Mqanduli we have some buses which carry passengers or parcels for people. These parcels are left at Darabe, Mqanduli and Elliotdale Because of this Government the people who used to be employed to take these loads of mealies and place them in the sheds are no longer given this opportunity. How can we put our trust in this Government which is trying to kill people? The person who was employed as a clerk to take these mealies has been driven away and the mealies have been dumped there and are now germinating. If you go there you will find the situation is disgraceful. It should be remembered that the clerk has been done away with and there is nobody to advise the owners of those mealies, and so they are just dumped there. This Government is only concerned with its big black cars I am telling you what is actually happening, and you Government members have not taken the slightest interest. I do not know who is responsible, because you have got the Railway Department in your government. (Laughter) When I communicated with East London I was referred to my Government. Now I say to you that you must go and put this matter right, as you have not got a railway department. All you know and care about is to go to the electorate and tell them that the Democratic Party will not help you in any way, and yet you are the people at fault. You have been told and yet you don't listen. There are many other things which have gone wrong. There are people without work. You said you wanted to accept separate development, and yet the people are without work because of it. It is you who cause people to steal. I say it is not ordinary theft because the people just grab things and run away, and the police do nothing. Things are loaded into lorries and driven away, and yet there

into two parts. One portion is sold at a certain amount and the other portion at a certain amount. Why does

is the Government with its police force. We asked for 38

about the Leader of the Opposition and this is a vote of no confidence in the Government. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. members know parliamentary procedure. When an Opposition says the House has no confidence in the Government, the Opposition offers itself as an alternative government and therefore they themselves should be in the crucible to find out what type of government they will form, and therefore they are at issue too. CHAIRMAN : Continue, hon. member.

guns and we are not given guns. The people are worry. ing us in the administrative areas because they want to obtain guns for protection. I have no need for a gun. I am a Tembu. I am asking you to provide people with guns in order to protect their stores. They have no weapons to protect their stores. One thing I notice is that you gave trading stores to these people without anyone to guard them with the necessary weapons. On the other hand, the white people can never be placed in such a position. I still say a white person will never carry a lot of money without someone to guard him who is provided with a weapon. You have allowed that dangerous XDC to give people these stories and not provide them with weapons for protection. When such a person has been given a store and the money is stolen, you state he is the culprit who has stolen the money. When we spoke to you and asked you to provide weapons for those people you said you were going to talk the matter over with the Republican Government. When will you ever speak to the Government? The Bible states that no stone will ever remain forever on top of the other stones, but you are not aware that there is something which is just remaining on top of you. Go and find the quotation in the Book of Matthew. (Laughte.r) Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, there is very little I am going to say. Much ground has already been covered by both the hon. the Chief Minister of this House and his supporters on this side. The only thing that worries me is to find such pearls being cast before swine - people who will not appreciate what this Government has done for them; people who are enjoying the very fruits of this Government, and when they are inside this House they will throw stones at the Government and when they are outside the precincts of this House they pretend to be doing something good for the people. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has strongly said that for the last ten years his party advocated the policy of multiracialism. My question is : What have they achieved through this policy? What have the people of the Transkei gained? Multi-racialism has been completely rejec-ed by the electorate. He has failed to organize a small group of people who paid allegiance to him, and what we have seen and experienced during these past ten years is the falling away and breaking down and dwindling of his party. How can he then have the audacity to say that he represents the wishes of the people in this House? The people have rejected them . In 1963 they had over 20 supporters in the Opposition. That number dropped in 1968. It was worse in 1973. We have had a splinter or dissident group that has not paid any allegiance to him. He has failed to lead his party. How does he ever hope one day to be the head of this state? This dissident group, as the hon. the Chief Minister referred yesterday, must come out openly as to whether they still pay allegiance to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition or they do not do so. It is very much connected with his leadership, because they are in this House and they are supporting him. Now, there must be something .. ..

MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad, and it is quite evident today that this organization is going to die. The hon. the Leader of theOpposition has said we have wavered away from our policy and we are betraying it. I want to reject that most vehemently. At no time has our leader ever sidestepped the issue. He is quite clearheaded and the whole African nation south of the Zambesi River is following him. All we want is the carrying out of this policy of separate development to its logical conclusion. The people in the urban areas are also for separate development, and to say more, they are even pushing for federation. There are eight homelands in South Africa. Why is it that all these homelands emulate the style of the leader of this side of the House? Can't you see that these ten people across the floor who stand on a platform of multi-racialism are completely out of step? It is something traditional for a younger brother to follow the steps of an elder brother. We have a younger brother of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who has just won on a ticket of separate development in the Ciskei. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: What was he before? MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I am coming to that. Before this bye-election in Kieskammahoek his younger brother lost when he was on a ticket of multi-racialism. We have now a younger brother coming back to sanity, but an elder brother still misleading the people of the Transkei, which means that if a man (assuming that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was the eldest brother of his family) - if his younger brother says: My elder brother, you are lost; it means he stands alone. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has referred to Africans in the urban areas and he says these people are not catered for, they are lost. He said separate development does not cater for those people. How many times have we in this House come up with motions requesting the Republican Government to hand back to us our lost territory in order that people who are repatriated from the urban areas must have a place to stay? How many times has he opposed that, and now in the vote of no confidence he brings in the question of the people of the urban areas. This Government is very mindful of its subjects within the Transkei and beyond the borders of the Transkei. I want to refer to the wages he has referred to. This Government does not hesitate at all to embark on a scheme of completely abolishing the wage gap between black and white, and this will be done in such a way that it will be a process of raising the wages of the Africans to the high notches of the Whites, and not to bring down the Whites' wages, and our hon. leader, the Chief Minister, has said this in no uncertain terms. The hon. member, Chief Majeke of Qumbu, has said the Transkei Government is fighting for the interests of the Whites. Now, let us be honest, hon. gentleman. Who in this House has always stood protecting the interests of the white man? Why must these people be jellyfish with their ideas? We want a firm leadership and the people of the Transkei are satisfied with the achievements of this Government. The

MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I feel that the hon. member for Cofimvaba, Mr. T. E. Ka-Tshunungwa, is out of order. Why does he have, like his leader the Chief Minister CHIEF MINISTER: Don't refer to me when you are talking about the hon. member. Sit down if you have nothing to say. MR. MGUDLWA: You are not the Chairman here, and you cannot terrorize me for that. He is talking 39

attack on the hon. the Minister of Education was most unwarranted, but it was very clear to us that again his white friends were on the verge of being kicked out of the Transkei because we now have efficient clerks to take over and we have the manpower, and for how long will these people remain in these posts without taking Africans as understudies? A young state like the Transkei, which is looking forward to achieving independence one day, must of necessity receive proper training by these Whites so that when the time is opportune they must go to Pretoria or they must serve the white community in the Republic. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is exactly what I am doing. (Laughter) MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: One hon. member for Engcobo who apparently does not know his stand, whether it is for SASO or for the Democratic Party or what, but the ideas are definitely SASO-inclined, brings in a question that this Government has done nothing about the students who were expelled from Fort Hare. (Interjections) Is this Government going to be held responsible for students who do not obey the instructions of their parents? When a parent sends a child to a university, that child must be fully aware of the large sums of money the parent is spending on his education and this Government will not mend the characters of children who are incorrigible. Some of you, as I said earlier, are enjoying the very fruits of this Government. I do not say the XDC is a hundred per cent good, but how many of your sons, how many of your relatives have been boosted up in business by his corporation? How many of you own properties now in Norwood which, not long ago, was a completely white area and we were not allowed to buy properties there? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has a number of properties in Norwood, and instead of coming to the hon. the Chief Minister and saying: Hurrah, Chief Matanzima, your Government is doing something good for us ... MR. K. M. GUZANA: Just quote the erf numbers. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I do not live in Norwood, but I know the properties you own in Norwood. MR. GUZANA: How many? There are none. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: As we say in Xhosa, when we rob the bees' nest the bees sting viciously, but you continue to rob them of their honey. Just last week I was amazed and very happy to see a beautiful school for our African children which could never have been there had this policy of separate development not been followed by our Government. What do you want this Government to do for you? The people outside have completely swung over, and even those who were under a misapprehension and being misled by you now hail the TNIP as the only sane party to extricate the people of the Transkei from a condition of servitude. The hon. the Chief Minister, in his reply, cited a number of factories and industries which have cropped up in the Transkei, and some of your daughters, brothers and sisters are employed in these industries. The Government now is determined on seeing that the wages paid to these African labourers and clerks are good wages. Lastly, I would like to say this, which I have repeated for the last five years : We have spoken in our vernacular; we have spoken in English. The only language we have not used in speaking to you is the language of the jungle. (Laughter) I have now understood that the only language the black man can understand is the jungle language, and that is the stick. You continue to misunderstand the intentions of the Government and only last session you were so concerned about the wage gap. Some of us robed in some of the best

suits of clothes that they have never worn before. When the son of Matanzima is trying to brush you up, you are unable to conceive what he is doing. Let us be realistic in our political approach. All the eyes of the world are focussed on the Transkei and those of you who are on a platform of multi-racialism are like a fly in good milk. To prove that the people of the Transkei have confidence in the leadership of the hon, the Chief Minister, we have had some people breaking away from your side to join hands with this side which has sanity, and I am sure none of you would ever go the electorate and speak ill of this Government. With these few but very heartfelt remarks I stand up to support the motion by the leader of the Government side that this House has implicit faith and implicit confidence in the Government of the Transkei. Mr. L. L. MGUDLWA: The amendment, you mean. You said "the motion". Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I am saying "motion" by the hon. the Chief Minister deliberately, because there was no need for a motion of no confidence when the whole country has confidence in us. That was a mere formality that even if the hon. member for Mqanduli was the only member of theOpposition he would still be given the opportunity of airing his views. Now, on behalf of you all on that side I say we have confidence in the Government of the Transkei. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 20th March 1974.

WEDNESDAY, 20TH MARCH 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. CONDONATION OF ABSENCE OF MEMBERS MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I crave your indulgence to bring up a matter relating to an hon. member who has been absent from the Assembly for the last two days. I refer to the hon. member, Mr. Ramsay Madikizela from Ngqeleni. For the last 2 days he has been marooned at his home. He got on his horse and rode to the main road between Canzibe and Ngqeleni but he found the rivulets roaring formidably above the small bridges and he was not daring enough to try his horse. Probably he lacked the courage of that great rider, Dick King, who rode from Natal. Sir, I move that his absence be condoned. I am reminded also that the hon. member (I don't know whether to call him Mr D. D. P. or Chief D. D. P. , because he came here by election) . . . CHIEF MINISTER : He is a chief. Mr GUZANA: Very well, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase is in a similar situation . Any members of the Government side who would like to take advantage of my magnanimous attitude should raise their hands now. (Laughter) I move that their absence be condoned and that they suffer no loss as a result of their absence. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as was announced by the hon. the Chief Minister earlier during this session, the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland is still lying ill in hospital in East London. As a result, his son has inevitably had to travel to and from East London in order to attend to his father's matters during this period of illness. I refer to the hon. member for Libode, Chief Tutor Ndamase. I therefore feel that as a matter of compassion his absence from this Chamber during this period should be condoned and that he should be paid his full ses-

40

sional allowance. I move accordingly, Mr Chairman. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I second that.

121% doesn't matter. What counts is that the greater number of people have been given a small piece of land and those people who are few in number have been given a large extent of land. You as a Government accept that. We also know that the policy you follow is not yours. It was just given to you. We know that the members on the other side have been members of certain other parties and organizations and they fought for South Africa. How can we trust such a Government, which will discard a fertile piece of land and accept such a small portion? Even if you say it is separate development, apartheid or the colour bar, it is all the same thing. All those things are oppressive to the black man. The English gave independence to the Sothos and the Swazis, and because you have been told to seek for independence you are struggling for such independence , instead of demanding to be given the whole of South Africa. The white people know when they arrived in this land, and for that reason the English who desired to remain in that country did so. This side of the House has for a long time told you that the policy to be followed is that of multi-racialism . To show that you contradict yourselves, you went further to talk about federation. We asked you how you would arrive at federation and you replied it would emanate from you. Ultimately, multi-racialism will be the policy to be followed in our country. Why don't you look into the future instead of confining yourselves to the present? Your former leaders who spoke about your country and who are at present on Robben Island fought for the rights of their country, South Africa. They were not fighting for this pondokkie of the Transkei. You say you are attempting to gain freedom, so how can you go against those people? In the Transkei you clamour for independence, but what is of greater need for the black man is money. You talk about who can buy a farm when he has no money? farms This Government is most untrustworthy. You go about saying there is perfect peace in the Transkei and no disturbances, but you will find quite a number of complaints. Even if you go to a labour bureau you will find people clamouring for work which they cannot get. In the labour centres the employers say they can offer jobs but they meet a difficulty as far as this policy of yours is concerned. A young man is marrying a certain woman and he has to pay lobola, but because he has no means to pay his lobola he has to go to work because of your policy of separate development he has to go to work under contract on account of this influx control. On arrival at the place where he is to obtain work the man is arrested, documents are demanded and he is locked up in the cells.

Agreed to.

NOTICE OF BILL MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Monday, the 25th of March 1974, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a sum of money towards the service of the Transkei for the financial year ending on the 31st day of March 1975. NOTICES OF MOTION

20. Mr T. E. ka-Tshunungwa gave notice to move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of repealing Prolamation No. 5 of 1963 for Irrigation Schemes and make its own laws therefore." 21. Mr. T. E. ka- Tshunungwa gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government not to compensate any whites still resident in the black-zoned areas for their recent and unnecessary improvements to their properties with a view to receiving fantastic prices when they decide to sell to the Adjustment Committee." 22. Mr P. N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider paying a headman succeeding another on the notch on which his predecessor was paid and this should be effected from the date on which such predecessor vacated his post as headman." MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, before we pass on to the next item on the order paper, I wish to ask that the rules of this House be waived in order to include an item which has been inadvertently omitted from the order paper. I refer to Item 23 appearing in the minutes. This should have appeared on the order paper this morning. I therefore move the waiver of the rules in order to include this item. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second. Agreed to. PRISONS' BILL : FIRST READING MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Prisons' Bill and I move that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Seconded, Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, the second reading will take place on Friday, the 22nd day of March 1974, or so soon thereafter as the matter can be heard.

From goal he is told to return home. When he left home some of the members of his family were sick and he also had the responsibility of paying taxes, not to mention the matter of drought and starvation, but you say you want to live by yourselves under separate development. As you have no money and have been receiving assistance from the Republic as far as finance is concerned, where will you obtain money? Suppose you are granted independence, where will you find the funds to make the repayments on your loans? Just yonder there is a firm called Spilkin's where a person is paid at the rate of R1.75. You are a government and Spilkin's firm is just next-door. What action have you taken to rectify that matter? If anyone has to buy a suit or a coat he has to pay the same as other people. Is there any difference between the money paid to a black person and that paid to a White? You cannot

NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, for the second time I say we have no confidence in this Government. From time to time we have shown this Government that we have no confidence in them. Firstly we have told this Government that the whole of South Africa belongs to us and that we should not only be given a portion of South Africa - that is, only the Transkei. I believe 87+%of South Africa belongs to the Whites. and the black people have only been given 13%. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Not 121%? CHIEF MABANDLA: Well, whether it is 13% or

be trusted because you have accepted a policy from the

41

Dutch people ― namely, divide and rule. They can never stop using such a policy because you foolishly accepted it. This reminds me of a certain young man who married in Lesotho. He is a resident of Umtata district at Viedgesville, and he had his family and children in Lesotho. When he wanted to bring his wife and child-

their duties are or what work they do, because when visit those centres they still Transkeians have complaints. A man leaves the Transkei for Johannesburg knowing that there is an ambassador there to assist him, but the ambassador usually tells such a person that he cannot help him on account of this policy and advises him to go back to the Transkei and get documents permitting him to be in the city. If you are being bought by the Republican Government you must make it clear. Even locally in Umtata you find complaints about the sale of produce. The people are trying to make a living, and yet they meet with ill-treatment in this respect. There are certain people on the borders who are supposed to be fighting terrorists and if a terrorist shoots a white person that man will be highly compensated, but should it be a black person he will get negligible compensation. All these people are educated and they have gone in the interests of the whole country. What steps is the Government taking to remedy that situation? (Interjections) I will now refer to an hon. member who nearly burst this building with his speech. I think if you refer to the Hansard from 1964 to 1968 this is the opinion that will be formed about that hon. member. During that period he belonged to the People's Freedom Party. If that Hansard is brought here I am quite sure that hon. member would say he never said such things and that it is all lies because today he has turned over a new page. MR. W. S. MBANGA: Mr. Chairman, and hon. members, to have to commence the activities of this House at this level, as we have had from the last speaker; to have to commence on this note is a shame to the House and I implore the House to change their minds at once and attempt to conduct serious business in a serious manner. One has to pity more the people who are represented by people like the last speaker. This generation has come to the political scene in South Africa to find this state of affairs, and the present status quo has been decided by what a few days ago was called a top dog, unilaterally. Many treaties and acts have been passed to secure the supremacy of the top-dog. This has happened over a few hundred years, but since it is impossible to keep a man down forever, the same top-dogs have discovered that they would never move until they tried to change the conditions of the underdog. That was decided unilaterally also. Today we have moved from the colour-bar days to separate development. Over this period some of us have attempted ways and means of effecting a change from the status quo, but in vain. I have in mind such groups and associations as the AAC, the Congress and CATA. Some of us who belonged to these bodies before know the consequences. Then only two decades ago some move was made for an approach to a change from the status quo. That change came in the form of separate development which was very, very tacitly imposed upon us - imposed in such a clever manner that we are now quarrelling about having accepted this separate development. There was no alternative whatsoever to what was advanced to us in separate development, and then when this development separately was accepted the man at the head received such onslaughts from even his own brothers and sisters. I could liken Transkei and South African politics to a game of cricket. If you are sent in to bat on a sticky wicket it is not the place of the batsman to say: Bowl me such-and-such a ball please. It is this particular example which brings out our hon. Chief Minister as a man who has weathered

ren here he was refused permission. This matter was brought to the Department, but the Department said they had been overruled by their fathers who live in Pretoria. How can we have confidence in such a Government? I want to talk to those chiefs who are heckling me. A chief is a natural leader of his people The chiefs were born not to talk lies, and today these chiefs come into this House without even having been elected, just as I have done. Instead of sticking to the truth for their own people, they run away from the truth. A person who is a leader should be honestly and steadfastly leading his own people. It is for that reason that you are suffering from difficulties . You have some iron buildings made for people to stand guard in, and it is for that reason a chief cannot go freely amongst his own subjects. (Interjections) It is for that reason that a chief, when visiting these big centres, has to be guarded. It is because they are untruthful to their own people. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: Though you are in the majority, when you are called to vote in this House you first look to see if the hon. the Chief Minister raises his hand, and then you will automatically raise yours. If we consider the community of Soweto we find that the numbers are almost as many as the people living in the Transkei and you say those people must come to the Transkei. Where will they find room to live here? Your difficulty is that you talk before you examine things properly. South Africa is our country. Can you give me the date when the black man arrived in this country? Hon. members, the white people should have some complaint because when they got this land they fought for it and the white people are in authority and they are giving you some empty land where you will find no diamonds, gold or other minerals. You accept it with open hands and say: We are grateful to you, sir. We say we should enjoy equal rights in this land with the white people. Even as far as salaries are concerned the scales should be the same. As far as your policy is concerned, you say this man is white and he cannot rub shoulders with a black person, and that the whites should be paid higher salaries than the Blacks. You clearly understand that this land is your land. How can we have confidence in such a Government? Even babies surpass you people. In the Ciskei, for example, we hear of increases in salaries but here there is absolutely no increase, or very little. As far as the Education Department is concerned we hear there are no teachers. Why is this ? It is because the teachers go out to look for posts elsewhere because the pay here is so low. How can one have confidence in such a Government? When there is drought in the country this Government is not interested when we are suffering from poverty, even if they see mealies imported from other places. I heard an attack made by members of the Government side that certain members belong to the SASO movement. The SASO movement is your very policy and it is your baby. (Interjections) I do not want to waste my time with those hon. members who flutter about. Hon. members, as far as these ambassadors in the Republic are concerned we have not seen what

many onslaughts to place us where we are today. He has had first to take his stance at the wicket, wear out

42

the Government that the policy of separate development does not belong to them. I will honestly, humbly and truly ask the hon. the Chief Minister to cross the floor and come to this side because we have got the policy. Now, we come to the Department of the Interior. I believe that among other things this Department is responsible for handling election campaigns in the Transkei. During the last election campaign one could see what I would call "political terrorism ”. Headmen and sub-headmen had been urged to tell their people to vote for the TNIP; teachers were told not to associate in any way with members of the Democratic Party, otherwise they would face strong disciplinary measures. In Willowvale, in one administrative area about 113 voters were turned away from the polls. Take note, all those were my votes, hon. Minister of the Interior. The orders were from one and one only a man who is supposed to be holding a very high position in the magistrate's office. I think that party that day should have worn a safari suit. I think it is true, because those voters actually pointed to him. These people were told to come and vote the next day. I will honestly suggest to the hon, the Minister of the Interior that in the future these people who are officals at the polling stations should be trained, not tricked. Mr Chairman, this really makes a mockery of the democracy which that side of the House pretends to follow. Now we will come to one of the most important departments of our Government - that is, the Department of Education. This House has seen the aggressive attitude adopted by the hon. the Minister of Education. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where did you see it? This House has not seen any such thing.

the bowlers who changed from time to time over the ten years, until today we have reached a turning-point. I have listened to some of the speakers from the motley group across the floor. Some of the very good ones have said the right things to the right people at the right place, but at the wrong time. Unfortunately, there are not very many of them and it would appear they, too, are doing it for personal reasons. We have been placed according to our colour at the same corner of this country, and it makes no sense to say: I am better because I am in this corner. We, therefore, on this side, people to bring themselves to sanity expect and sobriety, co-operate with those who have been placed in front to try to travel along this narrow road, remembering all the time there is no other choice. Perhaps at the far distant end a dim light can been seen, and there is no wisdom in trying to say things at that distance because it would be like crossing your bridges before you come to them. I want to repeat that people must say the right things to the right people at the right place, but not at the wrong time because it will look foolish. The caravan goes on and before I resume my seat I want to say this House has full confidence in the Government. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr G. N. SIPUNZI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to associate myself with the remarks and sentiments expressed by my colleagues, in that this side of the House has no confidence in our present Government GOVT MEMBERS: Which side? Mr SIPUNZI : on the policy of separate development, or call it segregation with justice, apartheid, baasskap - it boils down to one and the same thing and that is domination of a White minority over all the black races of South Africa. It is absurd really that during this age there could be a person who will accept the abhorrent policy accepted by this Government. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You don't know who accepted it, newcomer.

Mr SIPUNZI: His eloquence, coupled with his forcefulness in talking, actually never impressed anyone in this House, I am sure, because it was devoid of all fact. In other words, the hon. Minister had nothing to offer in his defence or against the allegations levelled against him. The hon. Minister concerned will excuse me as we are bound to point out the faults of his department. Teachers are being handled like a flock of sheep. You will find that in some districts such as Willowvale there are places known as "pay points". A certain group of teachers are going to leave their schools MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And be heads of tribal authorities.

Mr SIPUNZI : I only believe the Government is in a state of confusion. We have surely heard the hon. the Chief Minister when he tried to explain his stand as regards the policy, but to my great dismay I found one of his supporters telling the House that it is not their policy - that it is a borrowed one. In the name of everything honest, I think it is some admission on the part of the Government that they acually have no policy of their own. In fact and in reality, they are still dictated to by the Vorster Government. The question arises then: Is this Government enjoying the fruits of separate development when, in fact, it has to take orders from the white minority Government? This is my advice to the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He does not need your advice. Get away with your advice. Mr SIPUNZI: He must take this policy and put it in a paper carrier and give it to the Chief Whip and he can give it to me and I will hand it to Somakhonkco and tell him to take it back to Pretoria. (Laughter) Honestly, it is very sad when the hon. the Chief Minister has to tell this House that those people in the urban areas are a Republican problem. These people are just thrown out in the cold on the pretext that they are not the problem of this Government. (Interjections) As my hon. friend said yesterday, given the time they will push this policy of separate development to its logical conclusion. It is very hard to imagine because it has no logic in itself, hence this admission on the part of

• and take a long walk towards Mr SIPUNZI : a certain pay point. They wait there during school hours, mind you, for an XG Volkswagen, for their master to come and give them their cheques. I am glad the hon. the Minister of Education has come in. I hope in future there will be more respect shown towards this profession. Doctors, lawyers, plumbers, builders, even the hon. Minister himself come from the hands of the teachers. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And heads of tribal authorities. Mr SIPUNZI: In Willowvale alone there are about forty teachers who have had to wait for their cheques since December. They have been drawing blank cheques. Mind you, these people have got to live and they have to support their homes. They have to pay their dues for insurance and for the tuition of their children. Where does this Department think these people can collect their money? I personally take this as negligence on the part of the Government. If not, what can it be? Just recently one of the good boys of this department came to me and told me that of late 43

they are being told by the department that these schools are no more local schools, but government schools. In other words, we as parents have got nothing to do with the running of the school. The question arises, therefore: What is the need for the school committee? Why waste the parent's' time in going to elect members of the school committee? I think this department is set on a road to hell, a sort of a clash either between the school inspector and the parents on the one side, or the principal and the school committee on the other. I will come now to the Department of Roads and Works and will say one or two things about this department. Coming to the labourers, it is an eyesore when one has to watch these old crocks bending over these roads in most forbidding weather for a lousy 80c a day, whereas the hon. Minister himself is probably getting about R200 a day, and yet they are clamouring about closing the wage gap. Let us come now to the drivers of the trucks. I understand that these drivers are not even allowed to rush a sick child to a nearby doctor or hospital after hours. (Interjections) Yes, in my dis-

opposite side will not explain exactly even to the people outside, what their policy is. Their leader spoke about ethnic groups at one time. I want to say the ethnic group is found everywhere. Ethnic groups are in the churches. There is an Anglican Church that belongs to the English people; there is the Dutch Reformed Church which belongs to the Afrikaans people; there are the Lutheran and many others which belong to the people of those ethnic groups, so it is no surprise that we have choosen an ethnic group policy. I must remind the hon. members that we have come a very long way whilst we are dealing today with separate development. When parliament began at the Cape in the days of Mr Merriman they had the Native Problem, the problem they would deal with as the first subject in parliament and the problem that would come last before benediction was pronounced. Mr. K. M. GUZANA: Do you admit that you are a Native problem? (Laughter) Mr SIPUKA: From that problem we had the colourbar restrictions which you still find in post offices, in railway stations, which they sometimes call "segregation", and from there things changed. They called it "apartheid". Mr GUZANA: And then separate development. Mr SIPUKA: Where were we all that time? Where was the black man? He was not there when all these laws were made. From apartheid we had separate development and we can see something from it. We can back to the days when Mr Louw represented South Africa in the United Nations Organization, when he used to call us a "domestic matter" or a "domestic affair". Today we are no longer an "affair" but a nation. That is why we are here and that is why the opposite side is here too. I think they can only be thankful to the hon. the Chief Minister who has been able to take what he was given and make use of it to get what is required. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition at one time told us that we have hundreds of thousands of people in the urban areas who want to come to the Transkei. He forgets that he is standing at the gate. Each time a demand is made for more land and towns he says: Leave the white people alone in the towns. You will never get any more land that is what is in his mind. At the same time he tells the Government that he should bring those people to the Transkei. At one time he spoke about the Coloureds having no place in the Transkei. May I ask this question: Who is responsible for a family? Is it the father or the mother? To what people did the people from the "Stavanese" belong? It is those people who must care for the Coloureds because they sprang from the wreck of that particular ship. At the same time they turned round and said the Coloureds were being cared for by the hon. the Chief Minister because they are being given land next to Umtata. The leader was really confused, but the hon, the Chief Minister knew one thing - that a person is not like a dog. That is why he cares for the Coloureds, although they have a strong attachment to the Cape. May I conclude by saying that the opposite side are so dense that they do not distinguish between a bar of soap and ... MR. K. M. GUZANA: What is the "opposite side"? MR. SIPUKA: The members of the Opposition, led by Mr. Guzana. In fact, I was always giving them credit but I must say they are not worthy of the credit I gave them, in that they have failed to table their policy.

trict there are ambulances, but other places have none. I have seen a white man driving an XG van belonging to the department rushing to the bakery to fetch bread for his shop, or taking his children to school on rainy days. Has this department one kind of regulation for the black driver of the truck and another kind of regulation for the white driver of a van? The kind of regulation for the white driver of a van? The answer to that is firmly "Yes", and that is what meant by separate development. I now come to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. That is the person who is in difficulties. Only yesterday he said stock movement was allowed, but if you have five on your stock-card and you want extra you can only get extra when the five die. Mr W. L. SIPUKA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is unfortunate that I have to stand up after a back-bencher who has forgotten something. His was mainly an attack and never a defence. I am sorry he is going out, he is here trying hard enough to attack separate development as his leader has done. He forgets that we know nothing about his policy, which is multi-racialism. A word of thanks should be said to that we must leave separate development and take up multi-racialism. A word of thanks should be said to the governing party for not heckling the hon. the Leader of the Opposition whilst he gave his no confidence address. As a matter of fact, it is something that he is more or less used to. You will realise that he has been twice ousted from the party as a leader by the same people. Now, there are three main points that we deal with in the House. The vote of no confidence lies between separate development and multiracialism. I have already mentioned the fact that no explanation has been made as to how we are going to stay side by side with the white people. This has caused the attack to be very, very low - in fact, many degrees lower than at any other time during the past. May I say anything about the followers of he Opposition leader? Some of them were present and they brought the policy of separate development from Pretoria themselves. Now, whilst they were here at home in the Transkei they were educated by a certain movement known in those days as the Transkei Civic Association. The same association trained their minds and sort of stung them that they must fight against separate development. Now that that group of people are gone (they belonged to the shops which were taken over by the XDC) the sting is abating. Those members on the

The debate was adjourned .

44

AFTERNOON SESSION

of land in South Africa, in the purpose of consolidation. They were told that there is no new dimensions to consolidation. The homelands will get the quota of land that was promised them, the Natives, in 1936 no more, no less. (Laughter) Let us look at item 3: Influx control and race discrimination.

The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the last speaker confessed that he knows nothing about multi-racialism. I believe him, too. His leader, the hon. the Chief Minister, at one time professed to know something about multi-racialism and that was when he came back from America, but his brand of multi-racialism was not the standard one. His case reminds me of the parable of the soil. He broadcast his seed, the seed fell on the ground, the seed sprouted, the seed showed above the ground. It showed promise, but the sun shone, the plants were scorched, they withered and died. His multi-racialism sprouted and died. The hon. member for Butterworth told us that past decisions had been made unilaterally. We agree with him. We on this side of the House maintain that not just one side, but all sides must come together. They must come together and take part in the decisionmaking. Such decisions must be made by men and women as men and women, irrespective of race, irrespective of colour, irrespective of creed. With such decisions there will be no top-dogs; there will be no underdogs. Separate development is the strongest weapon for the top-dog. Multi-racialism in South Africa is the best stepping-stone for the underdog; multi-racialism is the salavation of the underdog. Mr. Chairman, a couple of weeks ago eight homeland leaders held a summit meeting in Pretoria with Mr. Vorster. The incident was referred to as an historic event - an event that will go down in history and an event that will determine the destiny of mankind. There have been many summit meetings in the past and no doubt there will be many more in the future. Let us take a look at a few, and let us take a look at the characters involved. There was the summit meeting between ,Churchhill, Stalin and Roosevelt - an historic event. There was a summit meeting between Jan van Riebeeck and the Hottentot chiefs ― an historic event. There was a summit meeting between the Xhosas and Sir Harry Smith - an historic event. There was the story of the an historic event. In His moment of Crucifixion glory Christ carried along with him to history two thieves, and history has it that these heroes of Mount Calvary actually had doubts. One said : Let your teachings and preachings prove themselves today; save us. The other one said : Don't be silly, this man is innocent. And Jesus Christ said: For your discernment, come with me to Kingdom Come. This other hero clamoured for independence and he got it, and he landed himself in Hell. By a twist of fortune of history, one Tsafendas found himself next to Dr. Verwoerd. These

CHIEF MINISTER: What are you discussing? MR. MADIKIZELA: Did the hon. the Chief Minister have to go to Pretoria in order to find out about influx control and race discrimination? In this same Chamber we have told him repeatedly about the intricacies of influx control. CHIEF MINISTER : Go to Pretoria and tell the Prime Minister. MR. MADIKIZELA: Why didn't you invite me? I would have done so. CHIEF MINISTER: I did not invite you because you are a dud. MR. MADIKIZELA: I agree with you that you are a dud. This side of the House has given fact upon fact about influx control and race discrimination. Did he have to go to Pretoria to learn about that? It was a long agenda they had with Mr. Vorster. The question you will be asked is: What was the outcome of this summit meeting? What was the outcome for the Transkei in particular? Did the hon. the Chief Minister bring us anything for the benefit of the Transkei? If he went there to talk about the independence of the Transkei he has been told time and time again that he can have independence any time he wants it, but his request for independence is hedged about with certain conditions - land being one of those conditions. Did he come back from Pretoria with a single square inch of land? Not even with the help of Mangope, not even with the help of Gatsha, not even with the help of Ntsangwisi was he able to achieve anything. And why did he need company for the affairs of the Transkei? Why must Gazankulu be concerned about the affairs of the Transkei ? In short, what did he go to Pretoria for? One fact emerges. According to Press reports he damaged the image of the Transkei. He did harm to the prestige of the Transkei. The homeland leaders were to have met at a certain time fixed by agreement at the Holiday Inn. His Dutch courage deserted him. The homeland leaders should have met there to discuss the strategy on how to beard the lion in his den · lion being Mr. Vorster. He sent frantic telegrams CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member across the floor is making a reflection on my integrity on hearsay information, and I object to that. MR. MADIKIZELA: I said according to Press reports. He has issued no statement. GOVT. MEMBERS: He has. MR. MADIKIZELA: All right, Mr. Chairman, he is taking exception to what I say. I concede. Let us now come to separate development and its virtues. CHIEF MINISTER: You must stop discussing me now. MR. MADIKIZELA: You are the Government and we are discussing the failings of the Government of the Transkei. This ricketty structure is beginning to fall to pieces now. It is being invaded remorselessly from all directions. In sport it is being shaken beyond recognition ― in rugby, in cricket, in tennis, in soccer, in golf. And make no mistake about it, the white man in South Africa loves his sport. He adores sport. He loves his Ellis Park, he loves his Wanderers; but what is happening today? These famous fields of sport are

scarecrows of history also play their part in the great drama of mankind. So much, then, for the summit meeting between Mr. Vorster and the eight homeland leaders. Its relative rôle in history I leave to the judgment of this House to determine. This House has no confidence in the Government. Let us look at some of the items they dialogued about in Pretoria. Let us look at some of the items they dialogued about in Pretoria. Let us look at some of the items that appeared on the agendas: Independence, the meaning independence. These eight Natives did not know the meaning of independence. (Laughter) They had to go to Pretoria for their lectures. They had to be given lessons on independence- and these eight Natives included the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei. Let us look at item 2: Land and consolidation. Here again they had to take notes. They had to be taught lessons in the history

45

MR. MADIKIZELA: They are not filling our stomachs. From Umtata lorryloads of mealies go out to the districts. If they go to Pondoland they go past Enkulekweni in full sight of all the Ministers. If they go to the Dalindyebo area the Minister meets them as he comes in. What programme has this Government to solve the mealie position in the Transkei? Let us look at education. The schools are bursting at the seams with children wanting accommodation in the classrooms. The teachers are labouring hard under conditions far in excess of what teachers should cope with. I met one who told me she had 85 pupils. MR. D. J. NDLELENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am in this difficulty that I have been unable to find out what we are about in this House. I had expected we would be faced with two questions to which we should address ourselves. These two things are the Government policy, and I think we are now dealing with the motion of no confidence in this Transkei Government . I am in this difficulty, that I am unable to find out which Government will enjoy the confidence of the people, because I have not heard any speaker who has offered a policy which could suceed the policy of separate development. Everything that has been done by the Transkei Government has been criticized. (Interjections) The policy of this Government has been so criticized that no good has been seen in it. One of the speakers who criticized this Government said that all good things are found in Qamata, which puts me in a difficulty. I am led to believe that there are good things but the speaker did not want to place them before the House. I will speak about the policy of separate development later but I will not talk about the policy of multiracialism. I have heard people mention this policy, but the meaning has not been explained . I have heard accusations of multi-racialism being thrown at our side of the House. I would like to pose this question: What does the policy of multi-racialism aim at and how will it help us to get South Africa? I would like to know from the protagonists of multi-racialism what they are doing, because all I can see is that all efforts are concentrated on separate development. A number of speakers have said that the black man has been oppressed for the last 300 years. I quite agree with them, but what are they doing about the situation? The policy of separate development has been given to us and we are prepared to pursue it to its end. It is clear from the speakers that the policy of separate development has good fruits, such as have been quoted by one speaker - for example, those we find in Qamata. The schemes you get at Qamata are not the end of this separate development. We also enjoy the presence of members in this House through this policy. One speaker from the Opposition mentioned that the Transkeian people are placed in a very difficult position. They have laws which are legislated by the Republican Government and laws which are legislated by the Transkeian Government. Such speeches make me feel quite weak. We are surprised to find that we do not know from where we come when we are in this Assembly. May I remind the House that as we are now in this Assembly we come from the homelands where we were given no hearing; where, if one spoke, he was sent to Robben Island. Now that we have reached this stage we find there are difficulties which face us. We have taken the step of establishing this Assembly when there were laws which had already been passed by the Republican Government. Now our duty is to amend these laws in such a

being opened to all sportsmen of every colour, every creed. Let us take a look at the social life of the country. In air travel we sit side by side with the Whites in South Africa. CHIEF MINISTER: And in the trains? MR. MADIKIZELA: It is only a matter of time before we sit together in the trains. CHIEF MINISTER: You are dreaming. MR. MADIKIZELA : My dreams have an uncanny way of proving themselves real. In the aeroplanes we have the same services as the Whites. We are served by the stewards and the stewardesses and they say: Sir, will you have this? Madam, will you have this?

MINISTER OF ROADS: Imagination ! MR. MADIKIZELA : It is not imagination , Chief unfortunately you have not been in an aeroplane. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, and you cannot even ride your horse across the river. MR. MADIKIZELA: Separate development is beginning to flounder and this Government is worshipping at the altar of an idol which is serving no purpose. They tend to reject the idea themselves as not being theirs. From all angles the infiltration of multi-racialism is being felt. I have no doubt that speaker after speaker on the Government side will say: Progress in the Transkei; progress in the Transkei - but what has this Government done? CHIEF MINISTER : We have put you in this House. You should not have been here. MR. MADIKIZELA : He was canvassing in earnest against me and I beat him hollow. (Interjections) What has this Government done for the Transkei ? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Wait for the people of the Transkei to tell you. MR. MADIKIZELA : This Government cannot tell me. The people are going to tell me they are starving in spite of the Government . This Government has no programmes . They have no mealies in Cofimvaba in spite of that huge dam, and they are starving . You would imagine that a Government faced with a problem like the starvation of the Transkei would come together and form a programme to combat starvation . In ten years this Government has come up with one programme, and the least creditable of all programmes a programme open to attack from all angles. I refer to the programme of independence within the next five years. Yes, we will probably have our independence within the next five years because separate development is irrevocably committed to that. On that great day great it shall be called you will no doubt have celebrations . You will have jubilation and there will be feasting; there will be dancing, tribal and otherwise ; liquor will flow freely. We shall have a sufficiency of everything on that particular day, but the following day the serious business of governing will have to go on. CHIEF MINISTER : Will you be in the Cabinet? MR. MADIKIZELA : I am talking about the programmes of this Government - programmes that this Government should have to assist the people of the Transkei . I have referred to the maize position in the Transkei which is getting worse and worse by the day. Have you been able to feed yourselves in your area? For years you have been starving in your area. I am happy to hear today that the people of Qamata can feed themselves . For years the good things seem to have been concentrated in Qamata. (Interjections ) Well, they have sufficient in Qamata - what about the rest of the Transkei ?

way that they will suit our people. The reason why we seem to be making such slow progress is because

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Tea, coffee.

46

there are parties which are a stumbling-block. If we did not have this Transkeian Act we could not say what we are saying here now. We should all be on Robben Island. One speaker said they do not accept separate development because it is of no help to anyone. The speaker who mentioned this (I do not know his name, but he is a chief) admitted the fact that the chiefs are the traditional leaders of their people. Now I am confused as to what kind of leaders are now on Robben Island, because those people are not chiefs. ((Interjections) I was quoting something that was said from the Opposition benches but the Opposition members are contradicting themselves. (Interjections)

terworth said that separate development was brought here surreptitiously so that we find ourselves in this difficulty - we on this side are sure that the Transkeian Government find themselves in a difficulty because this difficulty has been imposed on this Government. I know that all the hon. members on those benches are not happy because I am present here as well as these hon. members from Engcobo. (Laughter) They realise that today they are meeting a very strong opposition. If they are the Government I want to pose these questions. If that department is the Department of Justice I wish to pose this question: Why is it that a person who has been arrested by the Republican Government, when released to return to the Transkei, the Republican Government still has something to say in connection with the matter in that it rules that this man must remain forever in the Transkei and never leave his residence? That means the only Minister of Justice in this country is Mr. Pelser. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. XOBOLOLO : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member, Mr. Diko, said when he spoke yesterday that before we can enter the Houes of Parliament in Cape Town we shall have to trample over their dead bodies. That implies that as they are sitting on those benches they are running away from walking over the dead bodies of the white people. MR. C. DIKO : What alternative have you got? MR. XOBOLOLO : This is my request: As those hon. members on the other side are finding themselves in difficulties which have been imposed upon them, they should now cross the floor and come to our side so that together we can pass a vote of no confidence in the Republican Government. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who is your leader? MR. XOBOLOLO: They moved a motion that the Chief Minister of the Transkei should be known as the Prime Minister, but that was rejected by Mr. Vorster, who said there is only one Prime Minister and that is the Prime Minister of the Republic. Even with their request for more land the reply was that they will get no further land . That is why I say we should move a vote of no confidence in the Republican Government. On his return from America the hon. the Chief Minister made some remarks about the multi-racial policy which we clamour for, and I want to give a reply to them and tell them why and what the multi-racial policy is. On his return he said he had tasted of the good of multi-racialism in America and he felt that he could accommodate it. (Interjections) Passing on to the Department of Education, it is only in the Transkei. that educated women are not allowed to teach as soon as they marry. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is not true. Mr XOBOLOLO : Now this causes fear to all female teachers when they are being engaged to accept such engagement, because they realise they will not be able to teach any longer, because their teacher's certificate will now only be good for the collection of dry cow-dung. All the female teachers are now reluctant to accept any proposals for marriage. Mr. Chairman, if this Transkei Government is in truth a government, they must always have complaints about the raising of salaries, instead of just raising the salaries? From whom will this Government ask for money? These people are accusing us of being members of SASO. I do not know what their fear is as far as SASO is concerned. (Interjections) SASO is an association of students. I do not know how such old people as we are can affiliate with such an association. These people

CHAIRMAN : Just a moment, please, hon. member. I will again request hon. members of this House to uphold the dignity of this House and stick to the rules. I will refer members to regulation 33(g) of the Standing Rules of this House, which says it is strictly prohibited to read newspapers, books, etc., in this House. Please let us comply. Proceed, hon. member. MR. NDLELENI : In the Daily Dispatch reference was made to the fact that the Whites and Blacks work very harmoniously in the factories and industries. In my view the multi-racialists want such a position, which I have also witnessed in the cities where the Blacks and Whites work peacefully and harmoniously together. The position is that the Blacks receive far lower wages than the Whites. Is that the position that they desire? Is that the happiness that they require, where a black man may not occupy a position of seniority over a white person, no matter what his experience in that work may be? That is the question I am posing. According to our policy of separate development we want to get rid of such a situation. We shall end it as time goes on, because even today members are occupying these seats which previously they did not do. Again, they are complaining that the salaries paid to members are very small. One speaker quoted the Ciskei as paying higher salaries than we do here. I also admit that the Ciskei pays better salaries and wages than we do. The Transkeian Government cares more for the requirements of the people than our own selves. We cannot be happy if we pay ourselves fat salaries while the general public is starving. I should like to know what the protagonists of multi-racialism have done. We who follow the policy of separate development have some achievements to our credit. Let us suppose, while on the motion of no confidence, that the present Governments resigns. Would the Opposition be able to discharge the duties which are discharged by this Government? How would they do this, since they contradict each other and they have two leaders within their ranks? There is talk that the allowance paid to the official Leader of the Opposition should be given to another leader. How can they lead the people when they are still apart themselves? In short, Mr. Chairman, we have full confidence in the Government in as much as the electorate has confidence in the Government. One speaker suggested yesterday that a referendum be held. That speaker came from the Opposition benches. I am lost, because on 23rd or 24th November we came from the people. With those few words I impress the fact that we have full confidence in the Government, and this Government will lead us to where we want to go . MR. S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to refer to some of the remarks made by the last speaker, that the ruling party has no policy except what has been given to them by the Republican Government. (Interjections) An hon. member from But-

47

are determined to prevent us from joining SASO although it is just a students' association and it is only their children who are entitled to join such a movement. Hon. members of this House on the ruling side say they are following a policy of separate development. Could they give this House a precedent? (Interjections) They support separate development, but this has never existed since the Creation. CHAIRMAN: I wish to draw the attention of the hon. chief from Tsolo to the fact that he is not entitled to say anything whilst he is not in his seat.

reading. There is nothing in the bill to say that prisons are going to be built and, in fact, it is necessary to build more because there are people like himself who have just come to the Transkei. (Laughter) MR. XOBOLOLO: Mr. Chairman, there is a regulation which controls contracts. This is identical with the work provided for old women. The sons of the Transkei have no right to proceed to work because of this labour system. They remain in the offices and they cannot proceed to work because of the labour contract system. A white man comes round looking for workseekers to do his work, which will take perhaps a period of five years. He will get these people to work for probably only a year and then the contract expires. Whilst the employer still has work for them and the worker wishes to continue working, the law steps in to tell them that the contract has come to an end. Why is it that when an employer has a contract which will cover three years the worker can only remain for a certain period and then return home, and each time he has to re-apply for employment? Why this happens is because this person has to make certain payments each year over the period of three years that this worker is required to work.

MR. XOBOLOLO : Mr. Chairman, we do know that God has never created separate development. GOVT. MEMBERS: He did. MR. XOBOLOLO : I am sure that even Satan does not like separate development, because Satan has got one Hell where we shall all burn. Where our policy is best is because we realise all people, whether black or white, will ultimately end in Hell. (Laughter) We know we have a common end. If we live according to separate development, which is something which has been brought to us, we on this side will never accept it. That is why we say the whole continent of Africa belongs to us. The Chinese were given their own land and the Europeans theirs, and we were given this land. Who has the authority to give us only this portion of Africa, the Transkei? On that side they say we have been given this by the white people. We, on the other hand, are only confined here, and they go up and down visiting this authority with some request, and they never return with something to give us in the Transkei. Something has been said about the amalgamation of these homelands and as they are now busy discussing this amalgamation we want to know whoever divided them. Once again I invite the other side to come and join us and pass a no-confidence vote in the Republican Government. I hear and clearly understand their difficulty as far as the policy which has been given to them is concerned, and I see they have been going up and down because of such difficulties. I have numerous questions to ask. If the Transkeian Government is ruling I am going to ask these questions. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: To what party do you belong? MR. XOBOLOLO : The hon. the Chief Minister stated that during times of drought he gives work to women in order to assist them. It is only in the communist countries that pregnant women are given work to do. When there is starvation and drought in Lesotho the Republican Government supplies them with mealies, but that does not occur in the case of the Transkei which has accepted separate development. If I am a communist and I do not do any filthy actions, and you who ar not a communist do some filthy action, which-is better (Interjections) Even if we are called names, amongst these jeerers there are some who have done bad things and some who have joined unwanted organizations. Mr. Chairman, there are certain students who have been expelled from Fort Hare University, They cannot acquire jobs and should they put in applications they are told that some investigation is being carried on with the University of Fort Hare. Some were granted scholarships and whilst they are not being given work they are required to make repayments on these scholarships. The hon. the Minister of Justice tells us about prisons which are going to be erected and regulations in that connection. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, could this newcomer be put to order? He cannot anticipate my bill before I have given my second

The debate was adjourned. CONDONATION OF ABSENCE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, just before we carry on with the business before the House, I would like to ask the Chair to grant me the indulgence of mentioning something about one of the members who has been absent from the House, in the absence of the hon. the Chief Minister. The hon. Chief Nomtsheketshe, member for Mount Frere, has been absent and was in the same category as the hon. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase and Mr. Ramsay Madikizela. He was marooned at his home and could not get through because of the flooded rivers. I think the House is aware of the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister said each case would be viewed on its own merits. I therefore move that the absence of this hon. chief be condoned and that his allowance be paid to him. MR, K. M. GUZANA: I second that, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. MR. E. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to support the amendment moved by the hon. the Chief Minister, and in addition I wish to say that this whole House has confidence in the Government. I am going to explain to you why I say the "whole House". Those who do not have any confidence in the Government would not have been here today. It is because of the confidence they have in the Government that they are here today. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Does the House agree? (Laughter) MR. DYARVANE: By the way, I will entertain no interruptions. I wish to explain that I smile by mistake and laugh by accident. I shall explain to the new members in particular that language is the expression of thought in words . That definition they must bear in mind, especially the new members on the Opposition side. Language is not the only means of expressing thought. There are better and more forceful ways of expressing thought besides language. For instance, I will quote you actions. Actions are better than words in expressing thought. The words may say "We have no confidence in the Government", but the actions will say just the opposite. You will find that the man who

48

says he has no confidence in the Government has great confidence in the House, to the extent that he goes to the Government in any trouble he has, and he is in this House, so the new members of the Opposition party have had very nice words expressing no confidence in the House. I believe when they stood up they meant to support the words that did not express exactly what is in the mind of the man who expressed the words, because we are quite accustomed to those words now. I will just give you a little story of a redblanketed girl, the daughter of people who came from Tora who settled in Pondoland. This red-blanketed girl was offered marriage by a Pondo man who had three wives, and she spat at him on the first day but this fellow kept on going to this girl. Eventually this girl threw a bucket of water over the man. This fellow got fed up and he was wet when he went home and the girl said : "I told you the first day you came that I did not want you." The fellow was afraid to go home because he was wet and he was going to be laughted at, so he went about until he was dry and got home in the evening. When he went home he found there were three girls in his hut. They had come to marry him. He asked which girls they were and they told him. He said: "But you did not want me." The girl said : "I did not say I wouldn't come home. Do you expect me not to come home? I was only replying to you." And that was the wife who gave him a son. (Laughter) He had daughters before that but no sons. So you see, you must not take words too seriously. You must watch the actions. I respect the hon. member for Willowvale. That is the place, by the way, where my father was born. He has exhausted his arguments over matters which are coming in the policy speeches of the hon. Ministers. I do not know what he is going to say when the policy speeches come. I believe he does not know that the Ministers are still going to make their policy speeches and then he will be able to attack each department. I believe you will note the few interjections made by the governing side when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is speaking. That is because the Government side have become accustomed to the language and eloquence of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Of course, I understand he was the Leader of the Opposition in the first parliament in 1963. In 1968 the numbers started dwindling and in 1973 the numbers have simply withered. Why does the water flow while the bridge is there? That is what the new Democratic Party members should ask. Why does the water flow out while the bridge is still there? The bridge does not stop the water. MR. K. M. GUZANA : That is not the purpose for which a bridge is constructed . MR. DYARVANE : But the bridge is there. Wait a moment, I will explain. So the new members are not able to see that the hon. member for Mqanduli, who is the chief of Ncambedlana (Laughter) is talking just because he is in the Opposition and is not to be taken too seriously. About two or three years ago in the no-confidence motion the Opposition side blamed the Government for the drought that was prevailing at the time. They said even the water was cross with the Transkei because of the Government's acceptance of separate development. This year you have seen the torrential rain, and I believe the hon. the Chief Minister is still responsible for these torrential rains in the Transkei. Now, would you take that as serious? Those are just words which are just like leaves and where they abound much sense is rarely found. It was noticeable from the beginning that the mover of the motion

of no confidence said he was just moving a traditional motion. MR. GUZANA: No wonder you gave wrong rulings. You never listen. (Laughter) MR. DYARVANE : Now, I will tell you something. When the mover of the motion was speaking here, I believe about the middle of his speech he mentioned that he had no confidence in the Government because it was keeping on a Minister who was this, that and the other thing. He was an impediment. This Minister he was speaking about was not in the House. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, in any case, went even so far as to say that this hon. Minister had ordered people to get out of his office, and when the hon. Minister came in and addressed this House on the motion of no confidence he referred to the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition kept on interjecting: Oh, but you weren't here. Now, I want to know where he was when the Minister was telling people to get out of his office. (Laughter) Was he in the office of the hon. Minister when the Minister said they must get out? MR. GUZANA: This is an admission that he did tell them to get out. MR. DYARVANE : Now he is admitting that he has confidence in the Government, otherwise he would not be here. MR . GUZANA: How the mind works sometimes! MR. DYARVANE: Don't interrupt me - you have made your speech. Let me just come to the new member for Engcobo. In one breath he said this Government finds itself in difficulties brought about by the Republican Government. Now he can see why the Government of the Transkei is in difficulties. It is because of the Republican Government. So he is not putting the blame on this Government, he is putting it on the Republican Government so the culprit, then, is the Republican Government ― but he has no confidence in this Government. Another thing, and, of course, I have seen this with another hon. member and both require that the hon. the Chief Minister should cross over to their side so that they can then put their motion of no confidence directly against the Republican Government. One point I notice is that they want the hon. the Chief Minister to come over to their side so that they can have a leader. MR. GUZANA : The Chief Minister has invited me to go over there and lead them. (Laughter) MR. DYARVANE : Now, the next thing they find a fence and they cannot get over that fence to blame the Republican Government direct, so they must put their blame through the hon. the Minister of Justice. Would you get any better admission that these people have confidence in the Government? As a matter of fact I am sorry for the words we are wasting in this House, trying to reply to the childish allegation of the Opposition side. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: May I ask you a question, please? MR . DYARVANE : I don't want any questions. I don't ask you anything while you are speaking. Coming back to the hon. member for Engcobo, among the things I say he should have reserved for the policy speeches, he said that under this Government once a women is married she loses her job. In secondary schools women are teaching, as well as in high schools. (Interjections) Wait a moment. You see, the allegation was all-embracive, as though once a women gets married she loses her job, but I told you married women are teaching and

49

principle that he should be paid his sessional allowance. We sympathize with the family and hope that the hon. member will recover speedily and come back and resume his seat, so that when we have to dissect the Opposition we shall not leave him out. (Laughter) Again, Mr Chairman, there is a difficult situation of an hon. member who approached me that he is not in a position to attend all the sessions of this House because of illness. I refer to the hon. Chief Frank Zibi. During the first day of the session Chief Zibi expressed his desire to return home because he felt he was not well. He came to me and said he wanted to go home because he was not well and he is desirous of having his son (I think it is) appointed as chief. Well, I prevailed upon the chief and said : "Look, Chief, the doctors are in Umtata and if you go back home you may not have the fortune of being near specialist doctors." I do not think the Secretary is aware of this situation and probably his absence might be regarded as just dodging the sessions of the Assembly. Chief Frank Zibi is really not well. He is just in Umtata because of pressure from me. I said he should remain here and if he feels he is very ill and cannot go to the local doctors, then he should go home. I move that his absence from the sessions because of the report I am giving the House now should be taken into consideration and that his absence be condoned. He is a reasonable man and will not just take advantage of what I am saying now and keep away from the House for no reason. It is difficult sometime when it is cold for him to get up. I am certain he has been absent on occasion. MR. K. M. GUZANA: I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to.

they are teaching for their lives . These are appointments in the secondary schools, so I wish the hon. member for Engcobo should have noted this, except for the primary and post-primary schools, but married women are teaching in the secondary schools. He said separate development is not accepted even by Satan. I wonder whether he said that because in Hell all are multi-racialists? Once he said that I asked the gentleman who had some iced water there to pass the iced water over to me, because this hon. gentleman might be suffering from the heat of Hell. It was pity I did not notice if the water passed the hon. member for Port St. John's (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : Contribute to the debate, man. Don't talk about water in Hell. MR. DYARVANE : I am telling you what has been said by your people. I don't know if they are still your people, because perhaps they are not. He also Isaid that in communist countries women are made to work and wheel heavy wheelbarrows even when they are in an advanced state of pregnancy. I don't know whether this is hearsay or whether he has been in a communist country. So you see such allegations have no effect at all on the motion of no confidence. I have grown to know now the necessity for an opposition, but it is obvious we are running short of Opposition members. Why? You can see from the last election that the people can no longer be deceived. They say they are opposing the Government - then why do they go to it? The hon. members of the Opposition are therefore dying down. They even chose to elect and vote for independence because they do not see anything in the Opposition. The Opposition has not shown what they have done on their own. From now on I am inviting the hon. members of the Opposition that whatever has been voted for here and passed by a majority vote in this House they must go and do that and not confuse the people with their talk, because they are members of the Government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The debate was adjourned.

NOTICES OF MOTION Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government to construct a bridge on the Indwe river on the road from Cala through Lupapasi to Indwe and Queenstown as this river forms the boundry of the two districts. 24. Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of taking full control of all roads leading to Government schools, Forestry Plantations, Mission stations, Clinic centres, Trading centres, and Chiefs ' residential places in the Transkei. 23.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 21st March 1974.

THURSDAY, 21ST MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have a Press report here reporting the illness of the hon. member for Mount Ayliff, Mr. C. M. C. Ndamse. It is short report and it says that he is now in Edendale Hospital in Pietermaritzburg. The House did not notice that he was only in the House for a few days and his absence was due to illness. However, the report in the paper says that his condition has been critical but he is now out of danger. Mr. Chairman, I think his absence is regretted, but he has been in the House and therefore his absence cannot affect the membership of this House. I move that this hon. member's absence because of illness be condoned and that he should be paid his sessional allowance. I think that can be done by the House,

NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. MR. G. G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I discuss the motion I wish to say a few words on what really disturbs us in this House. Mr. Chairman, there is a report in this House that we members from Engcobo are dissidents. I want all those people who listen to hearsay to hear the truth from the horse's mouth. On 28 April when we held a meeting at Engcobo the people elected three members to represent them in this House. (Interjections) On 26th May the Dalindyebo region met and these three members were nominated. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member himself admitted that he was out of order. His opening words were : "Before I come to the motion I want to say this." Now, we are dealing here with the motion and not with "this" The party quarrels are matters for outside this House and not for this House. (Interjections) If at all the papers

but otherwise the Treasury would be in difficulties because there has been doubt in the past as to whether a member should be paid because of his lying in a local hospital or further away from the Transkei that is, whether he should be paid if he is out of the Transkei. However, I think his attendance during the first days of the session makes us inclined to accept the 50

have informed some of the hon. members of this House that the hon. members across the floor are dissidents, they themselves will put their house in order · not in this House, but outside. Therefore the hon. member may continue with the discussion of the matter at issue.

more for human beings told to remain in the Transkei? ― What have we got in the Transkei ? I repeat - what have we got in the Transkei ? Mr Chairman, to prove to the hon. members that the Government is unreliable, on the day the hon. the chief Minister was elected he himself told us that he does not trust his own self in this House. He left his seat that day as Chief Minister and sat behind the door. CHIEF M. S. LEBENYA: He was not Chief Minister that day. MR. KUTU: He was a mere terrorist that day. A box of ballot papers was placed in front of his eye. He said to us, although we have such magnificent brains, that whoever could not write would be helped, but it did appear that all the people for him thought they could not write and had better be assisted. (Laughter) We who were not his supporters were allowed to mark the ballot paper for ourselves. I admire him because I realise that he is capable of confining the brains of other chiefs and putting them in a sort of prison. There were some of the chiefs who obviously felt they were in prison. Mr. Chairman, I raise my hand to him. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, there is this question which is really worrying the minds of the people, and that is the contract system. We have long been debating in this House and requesting the Government to see that this comes to an end - requesting the House that all the people who want to return to work should be allowed to do so without restriction, because when they come home they lose their jobs. We say the Government is selling the people for R1 . When a servicecontract man comes down from the labour centres and says he wants so many labourers to build his house, which will take about seven years, why are the labourers returned to the Transkei after a year instead of after the seven years? Usually if you take a contract for five or three years you will stick to that contract - nothing more, nothing less. Just imagine when the Chief Minister of the Transkei has no sympathy for his people, and yet as Minister of Finance he expects to extract taxes from these people. When this man goes to Johannesburg, money for the education and sustenance of his children and money for the trip are included in this expense. As you know, even a shirt costs a lot of money. School fees have risen high. How does this Government think a man can educate his children? We on the Opposition side would remedy these things if it were possible for us to take over the reins of government. We members of Dalindyebo region came here with some pamphlets from the University of Cape Town to distribute them to the school-children without charge. One wants to know what is wrong with that, and I say it is to show how sympathetic we are to the people. Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few remarks about the hon. the Minister of Education. I am certain that every member of this House is not pleased when a child is returned home and told to fetch money for his fees, instead of the principal communicating with the parent and telling the parent to send the money. Everybody should know that the people who send their children to school have not all got money. Some rely on money sent by relatives in Johannesburg or Cape Town for the education of the child. They must please see that this practise is stopped, that of sending the children home to fetch money. The schools have deteriorated. When

CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member please stick to the motion of no confidence. MR. KUTU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I shall now discuss the no-confidence motion in the Government of the Transkei. In 1963 when the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei got into power he promised this House that in a matter of a few years the soldiers of the Transkei would be trained. In a very short time, he said, we would have an air force in the Transkei. This is the tenth year and nothing has so far materialized in that regard. He told us that his policy is that the white people must leave the Transkei. We find they have not left the country, but instead they are consolidating themselves here. To prove they are entrenching themselves, they left their old dilapidated houses in Norwood and are now building mansions on the hill. We have never seen a man who is driven away starting immediately to erect new buildings. That goes to show that what the Government says is false and that is why we do not trust them. During the last ten years the people of the Transkei have found themselves face to face with difficulties in that they are ruled by the Afrikaners, and before that they were ruled by the English people. The whole world is dissatisfied with this Government. It is the first time in the annals of the Transkei that we have seen women working in the quarries and on the roads. We have never seen women of the Afrikaans people, the rulers of this country, working on the roads. Before the Afrikaners took over power we black people were united in feeling we were ill-treated by the white people, and yet it was still better than it is now. We are suffering great difficulties under this Government. We are keen to inquire from the Government side as to who told them they should use the services of pregnant and elderly women in constructing the roads. There is an hon. member who is asking me who invited them to perform these duties. My reply is that there have been great hardships since the Government of the Transkei took over. The Transkei Government will show the world they are not trustworthy. There are our sons languishing on Robben Island. If the Republican Government has really given the Transkei the power to rule itself, why does this Government not protect its subjects who are on Robben Island? Is it not a fact that you, as you purport to be free, should of necessity do all you can to see that your people are extricated from the prisons? If the Transkeian Government wants people to believe that it is a good government, let us see our sons brought back from Robben Island to join us here. If the Government continues to fail to do that we shall not trust them. Mr. Chairman, there is confusion in the minds of wise people, as well as in the minds of the dunderheads in this House. We want to know what it really is you want in your policy. We want to work jointly to receive wages on a par with other people, to enjoy all the fruits of this country with all the foreigners, to be free to go wherever we want to, to work or open up businesses. We want the whole of South Africa to belong to us so that we can all benefit thereby. What kind a nation that is of nation would we purport to be pegged down like a pig? We can never be satisfied just as the pigs in the pigstye are not happy to remain there. If you keep your pig on a rope and then release

the hon. the Chief Minister was touring the Transkei he promised the headmen and the school committees that he would put up schools. He often mentioned at one time that he would see that the boards were paid.

it, it begins to be a thinking pig. (Laughter) How much 51

reed on certain fundamental principles. Those opposing parties were not like our present Opposition which opposes every measure, because this Government is making every endeavour to see that each and every one of its citizens should enjoy some benefit. We have now seven government departments. They are unaware that they are also members of this Government and there is some duty that devolves upon them. They are there to urge the Government to progress . MR. K. M. GUZANA: To use the shambok, he said . I am going to do that literally now. (Laughter) CHIEF NONKONYANA: They must urge the Government to make progress whilst we are in this Chamber, but the numbers on the Opposition benches are gradually decreasing. I also ran away from the Opposition because of starvation. (Laughter) I ran away because of starvation because I was unable to understand the policy of multi-racialism . MR. GUZANA: That is not starvation, man.

Immediately after the election he told the board members they would get their pay. CHIEF M. D. NONKONYANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. members on the Government side. I listened to all the speakers. Some of them have not got to the crux of the matter and have not explained to us their policy of multi-racialism. The policy of multiracialism has never brought any advantage to the black man. Many people have attempted to associate themselves with the policy of the Republican Government -that is, to become members of the Cape Town parliament - but it was deceided that a black man could not enter a white parliament. It was thought proper that he must have his own government. The policy of separate development was always a source of oppression to the black man. The status of traditional chiefs was reduced to that of a headman, to the extent that even hon. members of the Opposition referred to the chiefs as government stooges, because the chiefs were denied the right to speak for their own people. The Republican Government made every effort to give us self-government through the policy of separate development. The living apart of the races is backed up even by the Scriptures, to the extent that the Scriptures point out that those who are evil shall be on one side and those who are good on another. Those are now religious politics. It is now clear that even after this life we shall be separated. That is why we support what has been said in the Scriptures - namely, separating the evil ones from the good ones. Even when Moses led the children of Israel there were those who spoke in the manner we are now speaking. Those who wanted to go back would not accept freedom. The hon. members on the Opposition benches are not sure of their own standing, because the policy of multi-racialism has never boosted the status of the chiefs. Today we have ladies among the legislators of this House. Today we have our own African magistrates, our African school-inspectors, African ambassadors who are placed in the cities of the Republic. We also have African medical practitioners, African agricultural superintendents who are at the top of the adminstration. According to the policy of multiracialism none of us ever enjoyed these positions I have been enumerating . School buildings have been erected by this Government and today we have African attorneys and they never functioned before the policy of separate development was put into practice. We have African attorneys amongst us here as legislators. These attorneys never attended any white parliament. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition bears me out that he has gone to church meetings overseas and he has been propagating the policy of multi-racialism in those church gatherings in company with his white friends who do not want them, but he wants to go along with them. In September 1958 a recess committee composed of the leaders of the Transkei went to Pretoria. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is correct in saying he was not a member of that committee. He was not a member of the committee which scrutinized the Constitution of the Transkei. He was told by his leader who was a member of that recess committee that they were given a tree which would bear fruit, and that tree was this separate development . The fruit of this tree is now given to all the African people to enjoy, in as much as the Government of the Republic was given autonomy by the British Government and then the Republican Government ruled its own country. There were those who were in opposition, but as different as the parties were they always ag-

CHIEF NONKONYANA: I was not the only one who was going to have his belly filled up. I see some gentlemen are using spectacles through this Government. During the times of multi-racialism they were sweating and were mere boss-boys. There was no black minister of any department in those days and the people were labouring under hardship. We ought to be thankful to this Government for their achievements and the stage which they have reached . What is required of us is that we should unite if we are looking towards advancement, but because we have a few opposing members, those few are going to try to thwart our efforts. They ought to join hands with the governing side. MR. GUZANA : You want a one-party system? CHIEF NONKONYANA: We are not in favour of a one-party system. We want to stay apart but we must agree on certain questions because we want our rights. Our rights were taken away by this policy of multiracialism. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is still feeling my absence from his side. I am beckoning people to salvation, but where he now stands he stands on one leg because he is the only one. It will avail him nothing to oppose just on his own. If he has to oppose he must be backed up and buttressed by very good reasons. I have heard members remarking that I am looking down upon them. I do so in so far as debating is concerned because I want us to get along and pursue the policy. A person must be certain of where he stands and must know that he is standing for a particular policy which aims at a particular target. We are looking towards Canaan. I will not name this Canaan because it forms the subject of a motion here, and I am bound to obey the rules of the House. I do not want to speak in derogatory terms about anybody. In politics one has to attack the policy of a party and not direct criticisms to individuals so that in years to come people may be able to follow you; What is required is that a man must preach his text, because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not preach his policy of multiracialism. Even when I was in that party I was standing alone and bearing all the attacks. (Laughter) It behoves a leader to travel among his supporters and not confine himself to Umtata. It would avail the hon. the Leader of the Opposition nothing if he went alone to where I stay, but I was alone there. We would not be able to form a government, just the two of us. We must be a nation when we form a government. In the stage at which I am now it would not help the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to come and convert me because I am a fully-fledged preacher now. You baptized me, but the problem is you did not give me a proper text. 52

member on the Government side clamouring for what they call a logical conclusion to the policy of separate development. To my mind we have seen a bit of the logical conclusion they speak of. I have seen the logical conclusion in the race relations that have become strained as a result of this policy, in the Maluti region, for example. It has gone further to interfere with the work of teachers in the institution which has been recently put up at the Maluti Training School, when the principal and staff were told what children to take and what children not to take, purely on tribal lines. That is the result of this policy. GOVT MEMBERS: No.

The text must be followed by all the people. The Government side was able to place its own text very plainly. The institution of chieftainship was destroyed by the very policy which you follow - that is, multiracialism - but my paramount chief pulled me out of the mud. It was clear that I was wallowing naked in the mud. All this pointed clearly to the fact that the policy of multi-racialism is of no advantage to some races because this policy is not deeply rooted in the hearts of the people. The policy which has long roots to anchor the plant is that policy of separate development. The fact that this Government is in power and has been returned to power with steadily increasing majorities shows that a freedom-loving people are convinced that everything which has been done during the past ten years has not only been done in accordance with democratic procedures, but in accordance with the spirt of democracy. They are satisfied with what this democratic government has achieved during this period. The last election confirmed more convincingly perhaps than any nation in the world has done in recent times what great confidence the people have in their government. I know that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition went on to refer to measures which supposedly condemned it and which he submitted as proof of the fact that we were not really democratic. He surely cannot be unaware of the fact that the acceptance of these measures by this House was confirmed by an election which took place after the Leader of the Opposition and his supporters had travelled throughout the length and breadth of the country. MR. H. H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the motion before the House is a motion for us to canvass policy, and here and there, of course, to point out the faults of the Government, not for hon. members to get down to personalities, man. Now approaching the issue in earnest and perhaps objectively, we are living in an era where we have what we now call "Bantustanism". Let us now examine the causes that brought about this state of affairs in the country. Since Union, the policy of the white Government has always been segregation. It is segregation today, but by a different name. The only difference has been in the application of the said policy by the different parties which took over the government. The application by the United Party of the same policy was shrewd because it was English-inclined, but when the Nationalists took over they became crude in their application, because they were Afrikaner-inclined. What was the result? The

MR. ZIBI: We believe the only logical conclusion to that is that each tribal group has to have its "stan" so that in terms of this policy the Sotho-speaking people of Maluti region are justified in asking for their own "stan". (Interjections) I think some of us are busy building up African nationalism when your policy to its logical conclusion wants to say: "I am a Hlubi, Mr. ka-Tshunungwa is a Tembu. He must get away from me." The logical conclusion has been to separate Xhosa from Xhosa. I refer to the existence of the Bantustan across the Kei when there was already one this side. Indeed, when you think of this policy you feel we are tacitly accepting the very, very severe laws that were enacted by the Nationalist Government in terms of this policy. I refer, Sir, to the Group Areas Act; I refer to the influx control regulations, to be multiplicity of documents that brought about the "dompas". All those nefarious pieces of legislation we will now accept because they affect our African people who are in the urban areas. That is why we say we feel that the policy which the hon. members are pursuing is more diabolical than godly. Now, the pressure from without continues to be there. The world outside is not impressed by the presence of these "stans". They continue to say: Change your internal policies, South Africa. As I said, Dr. Koornhof is practically showing a change in the field of sport. There are terrorists up north and those people are there as a result of this internal policy. You have heard friendly countries like Great Britain and many others who say that unless South Africa changes its internal policy they are adamant in not becoming friends with South Africa. The position is that we are trying to hammer into the hollow brains of our Government a little bit of intelligence, but they are refusing to see reason. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : How can you put it in when you have none? MR. ZIBI: Now, take the Europeans. There were four provinces each with political autonomy, but they decided to get together to form a strong South African government . . . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And where were you, with your blackness? MR. ZIBI : ... . . . but because they want to keep their policy of "Divide and rule" amongst you fools, they have perpetuated the policy of "Divide and rule", and you are accepting it. They divided you on ethnic ground. When are you going to get together to form a strong South African nation? You are accepting it when they are consolidating their position. When the hon. the Minister of Justice spoke in Durban he was with Chief Gatsha of KwaZulu. The results were that some of the officials visited me and they wanted to find out if I had heard there would be an amalgamation between the governing party and the Opposition. They went further to ask if it was true that the two parties of the Transkei were to come together. What was

entire world, both sides of the political line, both East and West, got up against South Africa. They attacked the internal policies of the country and demanded a change in the policy of the Government party. Then because of pressure from without they had to concede. They introduced the measures that there are today, started changing name after name of the policy, up to the name we are using today. Now, I want to disabuse the minds of the members from what the hon. the Chief Minister said when he referred to some achievements by this Government as against what the position would have been had the status quo been maintained. The impression he created was that we should not have got what we have if a multi-racial government had been in power. Sir, I submit that there has yet hitherto been no multi-racial government in this country. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And there never will be. MR. ZIBI : Since Union separation , apartheid , segregation or what you will has been the policy of this country. Let us see, then, what the results are of the policy we are now pursuing. We have member after

53

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But perhaps other people don't want to get together with you. You are too black. MR. ZIBI : The events of today demonstrate that they are bound, willy-nilly, to join hands with us one day. Now, one last point - it is the Government, because the Department of Education is part of the Government. There was an announcement last year which we all just heard over the air, and that was the appointment of the circuit inspectors. The circuit inspectors were all appointed, with the exception of two. There was a vacancy in Matatiele and also in Kentani, if I remember well. Now, the question arises : Why were these left vacant? Was the Government not aware of the fact that would be subject to a lot of misinterpretation? The ordinary man saw corruption in the omission, and as a result quite a lot of things were said outside about the leader of that group. I am trying to tell you, therefore, that the Government has had for the last ten years an Opposition that has been trying to put it to reason, but these friends of ours have adamantly refused to see reason. I do not know what we should do with them. However, can you admit that the concept of federation is that the ultimate goal will be a central government somewhere? It might not be centered in Cape Town. GOVT. MEMBER : Multi-national. MR. ZIBI : Call it multi-national, multi-racial, multitribal - it will be a combination of different groups. As I sit down I call upon the Government side - please, hon. members, see reason . We are far into the twentieth century now and this is the eleventh session of this Assembly. And to you, hon. Minister of Justice, I say: If gold rusteth, what shall iron do? The debate was adjourned.

worrying them was that there was a possibility of the two parties getting together and because of that they felt they must find out what the policy was, because they want to continue with the policy of " Divide and rule". The very fact that you people speak of a federation means the intention ultimately is to form a central government for a united Bantustan, so that, honestly, even the Government side feels that at some stage or another there will be a central government for us somewhere. You get some obsolete remarks from certain hon. members, that it was stated we will only get to the Republican parliament over the dead bodies of the Whites. In the same way we are here and we can be nowhere else. There is a wind of change. You might remain here tenaciously keeping on to this backward outlook of calling yourselves Tembus, Hlubis, Fingoes and so on, when we are calling ourselves Africans . Now, to say a few words about the building of schools. When the two hon. Ministers spoke in the presence of the then Minister of the Interior who is now Minister of Health, they said, among other things : Don't think I am instructing you as a Xhosa. You are not Xhosa that side. Further, you are not getting what you ought to get because of his presence there. One reverend gentleman put a question as to when the hon. the Chief Minister would put up a school in Maluti area as he had promised in 1968 when he was last in the area. The hon. the Minister of Health decided to take it upon himself to reply. He said that building operations would start in January. That was to have been in January 1972, and there is not a thing up till now which has been done in that school. The excuse I get from the Department of Roads and Works is that they still have to send surveyors to survey a new area for that school because the present building was irreparable. You might address a meeting with an honest heart that you are merely influencing the vote of the people, but you cannot guaranteee the interpretation you will have. The result is that some of these meetings were contributory to the position in Maluti as it is today. The great thing is that anyone can understand that South Africa today and the Transkei are interdependent, and I do not care what anyone says, the ultimate government in this country will be multi-racial. It does not matter when. The great thing is : Let us get ready for such government by keeping these people for their know-how. We need their scientific schemes; we want

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. M. E. DEKEDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support what has been said by this side of the House in regard to the confidence we have in our Government and in our leader. We have not got very big question to answer. If one has to take stock you will always find there are two sides and you must be able to balance. The big question before us in this Assembly is: Where do we come from and whither are we going? Is the path which is being followed by our leader and his followers clear? Yes, one may not be able to say Yes or No, because what happened one evening somewhere in Europe? Two men were taken into custody in the late afternoon and, most unfortunateely, this place was very close to the sea. During the night they peeped through a small window which was very high up on the wall and when they came down one asked the other: "My friend, when you peeped through the window what did you see?" The first one said : "I saw the stars", and the second one said: "I saw the mud." Is it not perculiar, two men peeping through a window and one is able to see the stars while the other only sees the mud? I want to tell you that there are people in this House who see images when there are none. One hon. member, I think the hon. member for Tsolo, said South Africa is ours. Probably this hon. gentleman is not aware that when you have been defeated by a race you become a subject race. You are bound to take instructions from those who have defeated you. One thing which is wise for any man is to be able to take what you get and use what you have got to make them give you want until you get what you want. Really, in this House nobody can deny that this separate development has opened many

to man our hospitals immediately with suitable practitioners. The position otherwise will be that they will fill the hospitals with witch-doctors and herbalists. Hon. gentlemen, history is very cruel. "There is a tide in the affairs of men which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune." Let history not be so cruel as to say that the Matanzima Government did destroy us as people of the Transkei. The trouble is we are not suggesting that the set-up in the Republican Government is the right set-up. We all know it has always been the government of the minority. They have legislated without us, but remember what Rousseau said about taxation without representation - and that has always been the position in this country. This is not the solution. We can use this platform and use the existence of Bantustans to get that which is correct and which is right for the people which you, as enlightened people, know it should be. Let us not capitalize on the feeble minds of our African people and start promising them that which they will never get. Hon. members, let us get on together. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We have long said so. MR. ZIBI : • · towards a strong South Africa. We cannot get on together when we are out to build up an ethnic nation confirmed to the Transkei only.

54

doors for us in the Transkei. Shall we take a few of the things we have been able to obtain? There is the rise in salaries and wages, the increase in the number of children who are attending our schools, the number of teachers who have been employed during our time, the number of secondary and high schools which have been built. I want to recall that in the district from which I come there were eight Std. 6 schools when this Government took over. Today we have not less than 14 Std. 6 schools with one of the biggest schools in the rural areas with 80 teachers . We have today 70 inspectors instead of all the DVT's we used to have. We have African men who have been employed to supervise the roads, instead of the old white men who used to supervise. I want at this stage to refer to what an hon. member said about the women who are employed to work on the roads. Probably this hon. gentleman is not aware that these women who are employed on the roads are employed because they have nobody to support them . This is called a "relief fund" for women who have no sons or husbands. Now, as I said, we have to balance our stock. Which is better - for a woman to stay at home with no-one to support her, or to be given some light work where she is able to earn a little money? We have a word here which sounds very nice - multiracialism. Many people think they are clever when they speak this word because it sounds very nice multiracialism; but there are few people who really know the meaning of the word. One must go to North America where multi-racialism was started in 1776, nearly two hundred years ago, but up to now if you go to America you find a Negro school, Negro shops . We would like to know why. There is only one answer to that question. God created the Indians to stay in India; He created the Norwegians to stay in Norway. Now it is very difficult for those people, even if they happen to be in one continent, mingle and mix. I want to speak about what was said by one hon. gentleman from Mqanduli . This gentleman spoke about summit meetings. He tells us about the summit meetings which have been held in South Africa. I think he is mistaken because one summit meeting held in South Africa was the first summit meeting held, and that was on 6th March 1974. All the other meetings have never been summit meetings. The hon, the Chief Minister brought good news for us from Pretoria about the land issue When I started speaking here I told you that we are a subject race. You must ask for what we want and we have a land promised by the Prime Minister of the Republic. I find it very difficult to be required to come to this House to discuss influx control, contract labour, the mealies which have been left outside at Mqanduli or Elliotdale, bad roads in Willowvale, because this influx control, as well as this labour-contract question, does not belong to the Transkei. I want to repeat for emphasis the question before us is: Whither are we going and where do we come from? Many spheres have been achieved, as I have stated before, and our leader with his clear mind will lead us further. This is what will happen one day - when you come to a big stone in your road and you find you are not able to go over it, try to remove the stone. If you find the stone cannot be removed, go round the stone. This comes from a book called "Success". What is worrying our hon. friends across the floor is a child who was born yesterday. You cannot expect a child who was born ten years ago to go to the mines, but you will be able to balance whether the child will be able to walk or run within ten years and if the child is able to speak in the ten years. It is now for you to find out whether the child is a good child or not.

MR. J. M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I very much regret having to speak after the last speaker. I feel it impossible to reply to this rubbish. Before I go further, I wish to associate myself with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who has moved this no-confidence motion. We are concerned with the policies of both sides of the House, and as far we are concerned he was bent on multi-racialism. Fortunately for me I have left out all preparation and I have been given notes by hon. members on the Government side. We have to be sincere. We must not beat about to support separate development when we do not mean it. Who has not seen a break-through in multi-racialism? Is it false that a certain Rev. J. C. Mvusi is President of the Methodist Church in South Africa over Whites? In that conference are there no Whites? Is it not a multi-racial gathering? I have collected this from a member of the governing side who is a steward in a certain district. I can mention him and I am looking at him now. (Laughter) I say we must be sincere. If you support separate development there is no reason why you cannot come and feed me, because you say you cannot say these things in this House against your leader, the hon. the Chief Minister. Was it not a multi-racial gathering that was held at Bulura? The Chief Minister was there and some professors from Stellenbosch and other places, all white. I ask again: Is not that a multi-racial gathering? Make it multi-national but it was Black and White talking together GOVT. MEMBER : And sleeping together? MR. DUMALISILE:. • and there was no prevention of sleeping together. (Laughter) Just recently at Butterworth a social gathering was held to welcome Dr. Bikitsha and the two hon. gentlemen before my eyes were speakers among the Whites. Did they feel any embarrassment? Let us be sincere. Who has not seen a break-through in sports? MR. C. DIKO : Tell us about political multi-racialism , please. MR. DUMALISILE : If you have read the papers, just recently a young African has been elected to go and play cricket with Whites. His name is Majola. Is not that a multi-racial gathering? The only place where you are cowards is this parliament in Cape Town. That is the only place where the doors are closed against the Blacks and there will be an attempt when we walk over the white bodies to get to parliament. MR. DIKO : When will that be? MR. DUMALISILE: The time factor will take its place. Hon. members, I want to say again: Let us be sincere with this policy of separate development. You all know that seperate development has totally failed, but you are just papering cracked walls. We cannot have confidence in such a Government, conducted by such members who are very insincere to themselves. Because of the separate development which is practised here in South Africa, the Republic is finding itself out of the world organization. All we want is that the hon. members on that side must realise now that separate development has no logical concclusion. Many of them over a have said it to me and I can name them hundred of them . (Interjections) GOVT. MEMBERS: Name them. CHAIRMAN : Order. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I thought you said you had left your notes behind, but you are looking at them now. MR. DUMALISILE : These are the points I have been fed from the hon. member on that side. (Laughter) They say they cannot say these these things in the

555

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman, will the hon. member please tell the House what was done at Qaukeni apart from the coffee which was planted before this Government came into power? MR. DUMALISILE : The hon. member has missed the time when I spoke about Qaukeni. I am far from that subject now and I am not replying to him now. (Laughter) Some of the hon. members on that side have actually told me they are holding a lion by the tail with this separate development, so if the lion turns this way they must pull the tail the other way and vice versa. If they let it loose then the lion would pull them. That is why they cling to separate development, because they have nothing else to produce and they admit this is not their policy. What is their policy? Do they think that this adopted son will work their own way as they think? I want to confirm what was said last session by the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr. Kutu, about the Emjanyana Hospital. I took a patient there and that place is very abominable. I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Health to please investigate. Blankets dirty, sheets unchanged .. GOVT. MEMBER : Why didn't you wash them? MR. DUMALISILE : I think since the Department of Health has been taken over by the Transkei something has gone wrong. Whether it has been a change of procedure when the district surgeon can charge for a post-mortem examination of an individual, I don't know. That has happened at Willowvale and the charge was R10. Have you changed from the old practice whereby the district surgeon is paid by the State and cannot charge individuals? GOVT. MEMBER : We want policy. Give us policy

House because they fear their leader. (Laughter) Hon. members, what is its logical conclusion is only multiracialism, because it is going to its logical conclusion. Even Mr. Vorster himself is perplexed by the attitude of his own supporters and he finds it difficult to follow up this policy. Why did Mr. Vorster throw Mr. Gerdener out? Because he does not support separate development. The world itself does not support separate development. I want to call this not the Government of the Transkei but the Government of Qamata and Qaukeni, because every project, all the facilities are being maintained at Qamata and Qaukeni. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Hear, hear. MR. DUMALISILE: The Lubisi Dam is at Qamata, a factory opened at Qaukeni (Interjections) and just recently the Ncora River has been diverted from Tsomo

to Cofimvaba so that people at Tsomo now may not get water there. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: They have plenty of water. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who told you that? MR. DUMALISILE: You are a Minister and you failed your department in both Health and Education. I must come to you just now. When you were Minister of Health you allowed Butterworth to be divided into black and white over the appointment of Dr. Bikitsha. When you came back from Pretoria we expected you to resign. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: My people don't want me to resign. 'MR. DUMALISILE: Whites from Cape Town came to zone Butterworth for black and white, let alone the building of the wall at Umtata Hospital. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There is no wall there. MR. DUMALISILE : Because we shouted to have it pulled down. (Interjections) Minister of Education, are'nt you ashamed of yourself, having employed teachers and not paying them from January up till now? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is a gross exag-

MR. DUMALISILE : The policy is multi-racialism which is going to its way and getting its way. Separate development has been kicked out even by the protagonists of separate development in Pretoria. Recently you have come from Durban and you have been addressing a meeting there a multi-racial gathering. Why didn't you refuse when there were Whites present? The hon. Leader of the Opposition has been invited to all the universities to address students, even at Stellenbosch . (Interjections) Even the hon. the Chief Minister has been invited to speak all over, but did he decline an invitation? (Interjections) You can also go and address a university. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I am not here for the interests of the white man. MR. DUMALISILE : We are here for the interests of everybody, white and black, and multi-racialism is getting its way and leaving separate development. (Interjections) MR. C. DIKO : Tell us about political multi-racialism , not social gatherings. (General disorder) CHAIRMAN: Hon, members of the House, I have been trying the best I could to tolerate the misbehaviour which is taking place in this House. I told you the other day that I am not going to take any action, if I can possibly manage it, against certain individuals who break the regulations of this House. It is against the regulations to go up and down, crossing between the Chair and the speaker, but that is persistently being done. Fair interjections are permissible , but not the pandemonium that is taking place now. You will either obey the authority of the Chair or the Chair will obey your authority and march out.

geration. Mr DUMALISLE : All you can do is to kick out officials. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN, Order, order. Hon. member, please address yourself to me and not to individual members of this House. MR. DUMALISILE : I am addressing myself to the hon. the Minister of Education now. Coming to this Department of Roads and Works, at Willowvale we have been telling people not to work on Sundays, but most disappointingly and most unfortunately your department's bulldozers, trucks and everything work on Sundays. Have we put a Hitler over this department? (Interjections) This Department of Agriculture, headed by this hon. Minister, what do you think is going to happen to this department? How many grades have you in your department as far as the Blacks are concerned? All I know is that there is never a black man over the grade of Grade 2. Why have you no principal clerk, 1st grade clerk, especially in the veterinary service? Coming to the Department of the Interior, in any event I am afraid I cannot say anything because you are new - but the elections! This hon. gentleman from Cofimwhat we want, just as Qamata does what they want. all the way to Willowvale thinking they could thrash me. I want to tell you now that Willowvale will do what we want, just as Qamata does what they want. You have spoilt your chances by sending a light-weight against me when I am a heavy-weight. (Laughter)

MR. DUMALISTLE: Mr. Chairman, I have known this type of behaviour from hon. members of the Govern56

to other countries to find out the set-up in regard to such a venture. The question of land is a very important one.

ment side, especially when they feel the sting. Who has not seen and who has not read about the Pietermaritzburg municipality, Johannesburg municipality, East London municipality and so on removing these apartheid signs? Who has not read in the papers what Mr. Oberholzer, Mayor of Johannesburg, said against the Minister of Bantu Administration about this petty apartheid? What must we say to you in order to make you believe that what we say is correct? MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: What do you say? We are keen to know.

MR. GUZANA: Why are you talking about land now? CHIEF NTOLA: I would ask the hon, the Leader of the Opposition to reserve all his questions, and he must put them forward after I have made my speech. This self-government was piloted and requested by the chiefs who went to Pretoria. They were far-sighted men who wanted their country to be free. The Transkeian Government is always making efforts to procure work for people, both in the Republic and the Transkei . That leads us to support this policy because it has tangible things.

MR. DUMALISILE : You are keen to know? Then I will tell you that separate development is being kicked out. I can tell you what you said to me yesterday, too. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to refer to an Indaba article about this delay in salaries of teachers. The Department of Education has defended itself by saying the principals of schools are not submitting in time the Assumption of Duty forms, but as I am standing here, right through the Transkei principal teachers who have been in service ten years have experienced this delay in receipt of their salaries, so it is not true that it is connected with the delay made by the principals. One person said it was this problem of these incoming and outgoing teachers who are married, but does the Department not know that John and Miriam are different things? If Miriam has been married and has been employed in education up to December, why must it affect John who is a man? As I am standing here now, principal teachers of long-standing service have not received their cheques. Examination results through this computer business have been delayed. I want to ask again: Why does the hon. the Minister of Education not throw that machine out? To pass on, there at Willowvale, at Butterworth, at Nqamakwe and Idutywa, during this last election I am afraid to say it was shocking for a government official, senior in a district, to allow a government vehicle to go round transporting a contestant.

MR. GUZANA: It is only in Qaukeni that you have these things. What about the rest of the Transkei? CHIEF NTOLA: The hon . the Leader of the Opposition is attempting to mislead me. It has also raised the amount paid to social beneficiaries. In whatever circumstances the Republic is our guardian and we must follow in its steps. We cannot forsake the Republican Government because it is a father to us, but the Whites with whom you want to carry out your policy of multi-racialism it appears you want to reject them . Sometimes you utter conflicting statements. Mr. Chairman, I shall not say much more because much has been said by previous speakers. MR. W. C. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am happy to be able to address this House after the flowery speeches from the other side. There is indeed nothing to be derived from their speeches except that they sounded like a lecture suitable for school-children. Adults should not be spoken to in such a manner. To me they are like people creeping for benefits and people of that type are useless when they cannot stand up properly. That is because they do not know the needs and requirements of the people, neither do they realise that the foundation of this Government was built in a very dubious way, so much so that they are confused and constantly blame the Republican Government and pass remarks against that Government. You sometimes hear them say that this Government is wearing a sheepskin because they do not obtain what they want. Even the hon. the Chief Minister mentioned a blood-bath when he was not quite satisfied with something. There was a multi-racial meeting at Bulura recently and one of the professors by the name of Van Niekerk gave an address there. (Interjections) This is what he said: "We heard from the two speakers last night some acceptance of the principle of separate dedevelopment is also rooted in a commitment and I need context of their situation, because separate development has brought them a few crumbs from the white man's table which were not forthcoming before, but separate development is also rooted in a commitment and I need hardly remind the meeting that separate development has brought this land of ours a legacy of hatred and distrust." I will go on to quote an article from the Cape Times. This was on the 18th May 1939 when the former Prime Minister, J. G. Strydom, said: MINISTER OF JUSTICE : He was not Prime Minister in 1939. First it was Hertzog and then Smuts. MR. SINGATA: Mr. Strydom said: "The European had hitherto been able to maintain himself in South Africa because he was economically and culturally superior to the Native." I want to explain and say that the policy of separate development was never acknowledged by us. Now you realise that the entire world is complaining about this policy. You are also dissatisfied

MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who was that? MR. DUMALISLE: The Hon. member for Idutywa. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am grateful to be able to speak after the last speaker who said practically nothing, but merely went out to attack the Government without any reasons advanced. He was merely trying to consume his time. I would be pleased if the hon. members of the opposition would support their policy of multi-racialism and in so doing they should be making attempts to get into the Cape Town parliament and also to bring Whites into this parliament. In that regard they are doing nothing about the policy which they say are following. Through the policy we are following there are tangible things we have achieved, and that is why we are steadfast in our support of our policy and our Government. We have witnessed achievements such as the dam in Qamata, the tea in Lambasi and so on. We should be discussing matters of vital importance in connection with the platform on which we stand, such as independence. MR. K. M. GUZANA: You cannot discuss independence now. CHIEF NTOLA: Among all the speakers on the Opposition benches I have not heard one who said he was against independence. If they were sensible enough they should be together with us and we should all make requests to the Republican Government for whatever we want. When the country is attempting to obtain independence there are quite a number of preliminary steps which must be taken. Sometimes people are sent 57

friends you trusted have turned out to be your adversaries. You may be sure that separate development will never build a peaceful nation. We must admit that the present circumstances of restlessness have been caused by this policy of separate development. I am pleased to be able to address myslf in the presence of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. I have discovered in my constituency that people there start drawing water at 5 o'clock in the morning because they have six miles to walk to draw water. I am pleased to know that the hon. Minister is a brainy man. He must know things that concern the Government. At home men have told me they are not going to carry water. I took my wife and family to get water because I do not want to bother the Government. For six years I hired boys to bring water to fill this tank. We agreed voluntarily to have rehabilitation. The employees of the Government arrived and found a man from Tsitsa Falls sweating as he carried a big log on his shoulder. They took a photograph of him and asked how long he had been working there and he said : "I live here." So they took this photograph and showed it and said: "Look, the black man.” (Laughter) They now try to say that what is a good thing is a bad thing - the prevention of soil erosion. When we are opposing you we do not want to throw stones across the floor but we want to point out things which in the course of time will be detrimental. There is some difficulty with out neighbours in Qaukeni at a place called Zibungu. It was decided that a bridge hould be built so that the inspectors' vans should cross the river easily, because the bridge at Port St. John's is too far away. MR. K. T. MBOBO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy of separate development. It is the only way by which we can obtain our goal. I admit it is the policy of Pretoria. They thought they were solving their own problems, but we knew that that road was our own road. People seem to be surprised because they think it is unique and that perhaps it has never happened in history, but you can trace it back as far as the days of the Great Trek. If you read history you will realise that if people want to progress they must first of all organize themselves into a unit. You remember when the Boers trekked from the Cape. They felt oppressed by the British and one of the reasons which caused them to trek was the Act that was passed for the emancipation of slaves. Because they could not tolerate that state of affairs they left the Cape and trekked to the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, and there they formed Boer states which were the equivalent of Bantustans . They called them "republics" because they wanted space where they could assert their own ideas and use their own brains to overcome the enemy they felt had oppressed them . In those areas where they settled they considered themselves to be independent because they had cut themselves off from their own fatherland, which was Holland. In fact, no help was forthcoming to them at any time. The British from whom they fled had their own background, which was the spearhead of some form of change which was taking place in Europe then, and the British wanted a foothold in this country. They could not tolerate the republics, so some trouble ensued thereafter. Well, thereafter there was convention after convention and ultimately they united because they had one common enemy, and that was the black people who were spread through all these lands. Their aim was to suppress perpetually the black man; but a conquered race is not always permanently suppressed and ultimately they realised that. They decided to relieve themselvs of this worry and introduced this policy of separate development so that

with it. From the time this policy was conceived I was one of those people who objected to it. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No. MR. SINGATA: I felt there should be a referendum . I was convinced that this policy would bring forth what it has brought forth today. We have been told about the increase in wages and the number of people employed, and we admit that many people have been employed, but is there any significance in an increase of 71% to a man's salary today? Instead, the notches should be increased because at the present rate it will take a number of years before the wage gap between the salaries of white and black workers is closed . That means that this increase is simply a joke, and what we want is something tangible. People cannot believe you when you say we should go to the moon because there is a lot of room there. You must understand that the people realise very well what is said in this House, but the hon, members on the Government side are used to creeping and cringing. We are quite sure this policy will never take the black man any further, and except for a few people who are thinking they will get benefits from the other side of the House most of the people want to come to this side. There is uncertainty and confusion even amongst the hon. members opposite. If we are allowed to mention names, some of the Government members go to the leader and even brush his shoes as Judas Iscariot did. (Laughter) You can never trust a man who comes to you cringing to obtain benefits. You can never observe what is happening from the hon. members opposite because the rulers on that side rule with an iron hand. This side of the House can say what they think and what they want to say, because we have nobody to control us and tell us what to do. That is why you keep on fumbling about with your ideas instead of being distinct and telling us what you have achieved. What is required of you is to tell the House explicitly what you are achieving, because whatever you follow are simply ideas initiated by this side of the House. Have you thought about the millions of people in Soweto and other places when you say you accept separate development? Those people are urbanized and do not wish to come down here. They are used to those places. How can we recall them and ask them to come back here when there is not sufficient room for them? I want to make it clear to you that you have forced yourselves. You tell the people that the Opposition side did not accept the request for more land. CHIEF N. SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think that Mr. Maninjwa is the member who asked us to vote for separate development. Don't be mistaken, sir. We were together and both voted for this self-government. MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the hon. member recalls distinctly, but I am not going to waste my time on that. He was the man who supported me that this "indaba" must take place with the people because the people did not understand . We realised that the whole concept would be what it is now. One says: How shall it be? It will be difficult to maintain. There are many impossibilities which have now forced you to be at loggerheads with the Republic. We cannot follow opportunists. The essence of the request was that we should obtain a platform for discussion. You agreed to accept what was offered to you so that you should have it as a platform to obtain multi-racialism. I want to impress this into your minds. You really do want multi-racialism and you only accepted the present system in order to use it as a springboard for multiracialism. It is now very difficult for you because the 58

my hon. friends across to put aside all unnecessary obstructionism so that we can achieve our goal sooner than anticipated. CHIEF T. N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he says this Government is unreliable. It is true that since the arrival of Jan van Riebeeck in 1652 the country has been in a difficult position. At that time it was called the "Native Problem". Before sunset on the day of their arrival they had already anticipated this difficulty. They had not seen a single soul in that area but they had this illusion that since there was land there they would be confronted by human beings. Eventually they came face to face with people and thereafter, when they met your own sisters, hon. members, they christened this trouble "Segregation". This difficulty continued and they kept on changing the name of the difficulty, but the whole concept was that it was the "Native Problem". The name we have today sounds very nice and the hon. members across the floor are very fond of that name. In 1963 things happened here in the Transkei. For the first time in the history of this country a platform was established upon which a black man could voice his opinions. This platform is the parliament in which we are now. We must admit that this platform was obtained under the auspices of separate development. There was no other name to apply to it, but have you used this platform effectively? We have discovered that instead of this platform being utilized by the members to air their feelings, the hon. members opposite are using the opportunity to support that old system of the Native problem. We on this side of the House feel that separate development must come to an end in this country of our ancestors. What we desire is that opportunities should be extended to the black man in the whole of South Africa. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF NDAMASE: It is shameful to recall what has been committed by this Government of the Transkei. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer a question to the speaker. CHAIRMAN : It is a point of order or question CHIEF SIGCAU: A question. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. I will not allow a question. CHIEF NDAMASE : What the Transkeian Government should have done is to utilize this platform and obtain what is wanted by the people of the Transkei. From the very outset the Transkei should have striven to obtain rights for all the subjects of the Transkei. We now discover that all the Bantustans have been led astray by the Transkei. How then can we pronounce the Transkeian Government to be reliable when it has led astray all the other Bantustans? I should like to mention the way the taxes of the Transkei people are used. We expected that the Government should make everybody realise wherever he is that he is a taxpayer of the Transkei. How will the taxpayer of the Transkei recognize that he is really a taxpayer? It will only be when the taxpayer of the Transkei has seen clearly that things are done for the entire population of the Transkei. We have nine regions in the Transkei. There are people who are confused as to why taxes are collected from them daily and nothing is done for them. How do we recognize that the taxes are being used? Let me first refer to the education side. It is necessary to see

they could have their own separate state. Well, you must accept that. You must have a state of your own. You cannot struggle from the air. We must have a place where we can plan our future and have our place in the world in any possible form, without having to go to Cape Town or Pretoria. That place is this House of Assembly in the Transkei, and we must build up this place so that we can achieve our ultimate aims. Ultimately, when the Act of Union was passed the Boers found themselves superior in number to the British people in this country, and through their planning they were able to get their own republic. It was their republic - it was not our republic. That is precisely why it became apparent to the other Whites that we have been given something, in the form of separate development, which might be destructive to them in the future, because this Bantustan will be a nation by itself. Perhaps the Ciskei will follow suit, and any other places in this country. There are new states which have been formed, such as Israel, as you are quite aware, which is just a Jewish-stan of some kind, but it organized itself and made itself what it is today. It can defend itself to the last minute - I repeat, it can defend itself to the last minute. But we seem to fear our responsibilities in taking care of the Transkei Government here. We seem to want to suckle from a dried up teat. It is surprising that we want to be tolerated by people who do not want us. My friend has quoted a number of gatherings where there were Whites and Blacks, but- these are few and they are gatherings at which the people are always chosen from a certain class of society. My friend does not seem to appreciate the spread of racialism. The Tories in Britain are worried about the influx of nonwhite immigrants into their country, and you know what is happening in the U.S.A. That is why I say that people are trying to follow a policy which cannot work. States are daily springing up like mushrooms because they have reached a stage where they cannot tolerate each other any more. Bangladesh is one example. So, my friends, you should see to it that we come together and work on this policy, which is the only policy that will take us anywhere. It is quite true that we should join the Ciskei so that there should be one continuous Xhosaland, which means the people in that country will all be Xhosas, irrespective of colour, race or creed, be he Jew, Tembu, Pondo. They will all be Xhosas and will have to pay allegiance to the Xhosa Government. Call it multi-racialism if you like, but that will happen. It must take place. People have referred to some form of central government. It is quite possible but you cannot say when. It is going to be decided by those who will be there then, so we won't talk much about that. People say that in this separate state we will be dominated by the Whites. Domination will end on the doorstep of independence, and then we will be equal and meet government for government. Our doors will be open to whosoever wants to make a contribution to this country, be he from Pretoria or Tanganyika or anywhere else, but their admission here will be subject to our own rules. The time will come when we will be able to choose from ourselves the type of persons to serve our national interests, and at that stage we will have to sacrifice our hard-to-forget grudges emanating from the past indignities we have suffered within the past three hundred and twenty-two years under white imperialist domination. It must be admitted that the borrowed officials have sometimes succeeded in creating an atmosphere of distrust and hatred between Whites and non-Whites in this country and it is my deep seated wish that an atmosphere should be created whereby those strained relations may be relaxed. I sincerely request

59

all the required school buildings erected. The hon. the Minister of Justice says there are such buildings at Nyandeni. I regret to hear him utter these words, because he was the Minister of Education. (Interjections). Let me mention what he calls Nyandeni. At Nyandeni all those pupils who have passed their J.C. are loitering at home today because there is not a single training school in that region, large as it is. (Interjections) Our subjects there want to know why no training institutions are put up as they are paying taxes, so that the children can be trained. Furthermore, whilst still on education I would like to mention the way children are allocated to teachers in the schools. Some of the teachers have to handle classes of 80 to 100 children. How can you expect to achieve good results when there are so many children in a class? It is necessary that more teachers be employed so that the children can receive proper education. There can be no progress in any nation without sufficient education for its sons and daughters. Let me make some observations now in connection with the Agricultural Department. Some people derive no benefit at all as far as agriculture is concerned in some regions. It is necessary that in every region something tangible should be done by the Agricultural Department so that the people should know what is being done. I am constrained to remember the late Mr. C. K. Madikizela, who was Minister of Agriculture at one time. At one stage he had a meeting of chiefs and headman in his office when he even suggested that the waters of the Umgazi River should be used for irrigation purposes. We thought it was a very good project and we thanked him very much. What happened after that? I am sorry to say that nothing was ever done in regard to irrigation in that area. How can we therefore trust this Government? Mr.

ment of the Transkei rejoices in seeing people leave the Transkei to seek work elsewhere. I realise, however, that they do this because they sell the people for R1 each. The Government should attempt to see that people have work opportunities here. CHIEF MINISTER : But you don't care for the Transkei, you only care for the Republic. CHIEF NDAMASE : I also wish to refer to the Department of Justice. Here in the Transkei we have African magistrates, but nevertheless they are still few in number. We would be happy to know that the Government is doing its best to increase the wages. There is a big difference between the salaries of white and black magistrates, but because our magistrates are so few this gap should be closed. Nothing has been done by this Government to close the gap and that is why we have moved this motion that the House has no confidence in the Government. This platform has been used by the Government to hammer at the intensification of separate development. (Interjections). We on this side of the House, on the other hand, are utilizing the opportunity to break down the barriers between the different races in the country. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, from the very onset I wish to reiterate what I have said in the past. I would not have taken this step if we were dealing with an intelligent Opposition, but we are dealing with a group of dunderheads who require that statements must be repeated several times before they can understand them. First of all I would like to correct an impression under which the Opposition is labouring that is the fact that because the Opposition has moved a motion of no confidence in the Government then they and their policies may not be scrutinized. According to parliamentary procedures the world over, when an Opposition moves a vote of no confidence in the Government, it thereby offers itself as an alternative government. It therefore becomes necessary to put them and their policies into scrutiny that is, in the crucible. For more than ten years this side of the House has had the displeasure and boredom of listening to platitudes, glaring inaccuracies and highsounding words from the Opposition which contain nothing but trash. As I have been sitting here in the last few days I wondered whether the Transkei Government, faced with so much to do within so little time, could afford the luxury of listening to empty no-confidence motions moved by this group of political charlatans. But before I go on with my argument I would like to tell the Opposition that so long as they raise the question of policies in their argument in the vote of no confidence they are barking up the wrong tree. If they dwelt on the shortcomings of the departments of this Government, then they would be in order . The policy which is followed by the Transkeian Government was accepted by the Territorial Authority of the Transkei and thereafter ratified by the people of the Transkei. This policy became the basis of the Constitution under which this House exists today, so if hon. members want to criticize the policy followed by the Transkeian Government the motion they should move is a motion of no confidence in the Constitution of this House, in the election of this House - that is, the whole House, including themselves. They must move a motion of no confidence in the whole House. But they will not do it because they want to be in this House. Next year, hon. Leader of the Opposition, please don't move a motion of no confidence in the Government if you are going

Chairman, let me now refer to the Department of the Interior. I am going to point out the unreliability of this Government. There are the social benefits for old people, but the hon. the Minister of the Interior (although I will not say much because she is new to this department) should know that the whole process in that department is unsatisfactory. Old people apply for these benefits. They start asking for them from the very chiefs who are here, proceed to the tribal authorities with their applications and then to the magistrate. It does appear that it sometimes takes twelve months before the person applying for the pension receives it. The application is then posted to the Department of the Interior where it is delayed for another ten or twelve months. Do you think you can have confidence in a Government that treats people so negligently? The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 22nd March 1974. FRIDAY, 22ND MARCH 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. CHIEF T. N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I still wanted to criticize the Department of the Interior in regard to these many people who go to the Transvaal in search of work. I hope that one of the primary objectives of the Government will be to concentrate on making arrangements for people to obtain employment here in the Transkei. We have not observed any attempts to create work centres here in the Transkei. We are of the opinion that the Govern-

to attack the policies of this Government.

60

MR. C. DIKO: If he is still going to be there. (Laughter). MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The Constitution under which you have been elected is based on the policy of separate development. This is the Magna Carta of this House. Of course the hon. member for Engcobo, the one sitting in the middle amongst the three members for Engcobo, was not even here during the time this was discussed. If he wants to know where he was I will tell him. Do you want to know where you were, hon. member? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He was under house arrest from 1961 to 1962, under the Suppression of Communism Act. Now, this is the preamble to the Constitution of this House. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: We know it.

some of us not knowing. I will quote now: "That in order to ease the present situation of uneasiness in the Union of South Africa and in view of the Government's policy of separate development and the fact that the Bantu people in the Union of South Africa have no representation in the Union Legislature, this Territorial Authority in session respectfully requests the Government to declare the Transkeian Territories as a whole a self-governing state under the Bantu people (not under the Euro-Bantu people); that arrangements for the drawing up of the relative constitution be made by the authorities in consultation with the leaders of the Bantu people in the Transkeian Territories and that this item be given priority in order to take advantage of the presence of government officials from Pretoria.” He went on to say: "This is the government policy which is asked for." They asked for the government policy of separate development. "In this motion what we ask is that the Government should put this into practice, not just say by word of mouth that the people would be given separate development." So it is separate development that was asked for in the motion. Then my hon. friend who was even outside, to prove that this had been discussed elsewhere, Chief S. S. Majeke had this to say: "I am sorry that when I stepped into the Chamber this matter was already under discussion. I did not anticipate that this motion would be discussed today. I think that this motion is the most important one of all the motions on the agenda." The motion of separate development! "I think it meets all the desires and wishes of this Authority. Let me talk about representation in parliament, because this motion alludes to such representation. This country is a multiracial country consisting of Europeans, Indians , Coloureds, Bantu and other races . I think we all know that parliament consists only of the white people. A motion was introduced by Councillor Mkiva of Idutywa and I want to remind those who were not here at that time and those who were here but have forgotten. In that motion he said that the time had arrived when people should elect men of their own colour to go and represent them in parliament. Another resolution introduced by a speaker from Qumbu was passed by the Bunga. It was also in connection with the same thing. You will find those resolutions on page 125 of the 1944 Blue Book.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If you know it, don't keep attacking us for following this piece of legislation. The other day I told you you are like a story I once heard about a white man. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, please address the Chair. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is said, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, that the skin of a white man is so thick that in order to make him feel your lash you must hit him once, twice, thrice on the same spot. They are just like that, and I must hit them once, twice or thrice with my quotations. (Laughter) This preamble to the Constitution, Act No. 48 of 1963 .... (Interjections). All right, Mr. Xobolobo, I am still coming to you. I have a lot of information about you. This preamble reads: "Whereas the policy of separate devolopment envisages the gradual development of self-governing Bantu National Units in the traditional Bantu home"" lands · So, hon. members, you have allowed yourselves to be elected into this House under this policy of separate development, under this Constitution, and I charge you with political dishonesty ... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Shame ! MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I charge you with having defrauded the people who elected you. (Interjections). MR. G. G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Justice is pointing a finger at us. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : As long as I am speaking and as long as I am referring to them I will have my finger pointing at them, as I have now. (Laughter) For the purpose of enlightening new members in this House and the old members who do not understand, it is my displeasure to requote what I have quoted before, but before doing so I would like to tell this House that on the day the motion for granting self-government to the Transkei was moved, the members from Emigrant Tembuland were against that motion. They were against proceeding with that motion at that stage because they felt that such a motion having taken the House by surprise should be taken back to the people whom we represented in this House, but the hon. members felt that we were playing delaying tactics. They were so much in a hurry to carry on with separate development. The hon. old man looking at me, I hope before he goes to the land of the forgotten he will be able to come and confess and say: I moved this and thereafter I misled the House. The hon. Mr. Maninjwa, whom we can consider as the father of separate development, as the father of the creation of this House, seconded by my hon. chief whom we can call the co-father of separate development, the co-father of the existence of this House, moved this motion, taking everybody by surprise. But in the course of the discussion it transpired that this motion had been discussed somewhere with

Those resolutions were passed by the defunct Bunga. I think those resolutions were passed about ten years ago." I am quoting more today because I want the people to know what you said. "I am trying to point out that it has been the wish of the people of these parts that parliament should not only consist of one racial group. Other groups should also be represented. The present Government, as well as other previous governments, have invariably objected to any direct representation of the Bantu people in parliament. Now, let us think seriously." So said my hon. chief. “ Let us find ways and means of solving this problem. How long will this position remain? When the Government objected to direct representation of the Bantu people by their own people they said they would set aside certain states for the Bantu people where they would govern themselves. The Government has said too much, but we are asking for just one concession that is, selfgovernment for the Transkei based on separate development. We are all aware that no party is prepared to give us direct representation except the Progressive Party. I have great doubt as to whether it will ever be in power. The position being so, we ask that the Government should give us what it declares to be ours in the future. 61

benefit the Leader of the Opposition, but these rules have been amended so that the Leader of the Opposition need not have any indulgence extended to him, but rather enjoy that privilege in terms of the rules. A Minister is limited to half-an-hour except in certain specific circumstances, and I quote them: "This rule limiting a speaker to thirty minutes shall not apply to a Minister or a member in charge of a bill." MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I know that. That is why I am moving this motion. MR. GUZANA: Let it not be suggested that the reason for asking for this indulgence is that the present speaker is winding up on behalf of the Government. It is not a justifying cause and we might find ourselves falling into difficulties if this sort of thing is done.

I do not know what else is to be said, because there are two roads. One way is that we should be allowed to have direct representation in parliament. In spite of repeated representatives we have been told : No, you cannot be represented by your own people in parliament. Well, we have given that up." So said the hon. chief. "Sir, I wish the Government to treat this matter with sympathy. Should the Government be favourable, then they should call our leaders so that our leaders and the Government should draw up the constitution that will suit it. If any member does not lift up his hand ..." He was actually imploring the members to lift up their hands and vote for separate development. He said: "I will be surprised if any member does not lift up his hand. If this resolution is passed it should be stated at the bottom that this resolution was passed unanimously." Now, all that was done was to comply with the wishes of the hon. member for Port St. John's and the hon. member of Qumbu, and this House was given self-government on the policy of separate development.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It will depend on the House agreeing. MR. GUZANA: If that is so then we might as well not have any rules regulating the procedure here, because we might agree to do anything that is not according to the rules. MR. D. H. MLONYENI : That is democracy.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : We wanted a platform. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And so you have this platform, but why don't you move that this be dissolved and get another constitution? We, the Government, are working under the Constitution which you asked for and you have not moved any motion to dissolve it because the subterfuge which you used to get this self-government is the subterfuge you want to use to get money from the Government. I just want to show the hon. members that the hon. the Chief Minister on that occasion was against proceeding with this motion. (Interjections) . I want to show you, because you keep on saying the Government accepted the policy of separate development when it was accepted by the Territorial Authority, moved by those hon. members across the floor who are today so dishonest as to sit in the ranks of the Opposition. The Presiding Territorial Chief, who is now the Chief Minister, said: "This is a very important item on the agenda and as far as I could listen to the debate it appeared to be a very contentious subject. It would appear from other members that the matter should not only affect the Chamber, but should also affect the Ciskei." CHAIRMAN : Your time is up. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I move that this House waive the rules in order to give me a long time to proceed with my discussion, in view of the fact that I am the last speaker and I am rounding off the debate for this side. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second .

MR. GUZANA: It is not democracy, it is licence, and I move that ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are just wasting time. I want to use that time. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I rule that the hon. member on the floor should proceed but he must be short. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I was quoting what the Presiding Territorial Chief, who is now the Chief Minister, said : "In the circumstances would it not be wise to take this matter back to our constituencies , address meetings and bring the attention of the people to this motion?" Then, after a lengthy debate, the motion amended and re-amended, this is what the Presiding Territorial Chief said at the end of it all, when the motion was accepted unanimously. (I want to prove to you that on that occasion the Presiding Territorial Chief, who is now the Chief Minister, alluded to the question of the rejection of multi-racialism and the acceptance of the policy of separate development, and these were just as dumb as cocks.) He said: "Chiefs and councillors , the measure for which a vote has just been taken was exhaustively and sufficiently debated. I wish to make a few observations . Today the Transkei is on the march in support of the government policy of separate development and the measure just decided so unanimously is an unequivocal rejection of the policy of multi-racialism." They never dissented ; they were quiet; they never said: We stand for the policy of multi- racialism . They accepted the policy of separate development.

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, as chairman of the Business Committee we have no other item on the agenda this morning and it is highly probable that we may adjourn long before 1 o'clock if the hon. Minister is not allowed to proceed with his speech. I wish to support his request that he be allowed some latitude, but not that he speaks the whole morning because the hon. the Leader of the Opposition must have time to wind up this debate. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, we must be careful not to create a precedent which will cause further embarrassment to the proceedings of this House. Should we agree to this waiver, any other member who precedes the mover of a motion might well ask that the rules be waived in order to summarize. CHIEF MINISTER: But we have done it for you. MR. GUZANA: I am told this has been done to

Now, I want to quote what happened on the day a report was given on the draft constitution to the Territorial Authority to show that the Daily Dispatch, which is the father of multi-racialism in the Transkei, predicted that some of the members would pursue a policy of multi-racialism. You always say we borrowed this policy from the Republican Government. It is true, and you accepted the policy from the Republican Government, but I want to show you that you borrowed your policy of multi-racialism from the Daily Dispatch I think from Mr. Donald Wood. The Presiding Territorial Chief, before we proceeded with the report, said : "Mr. Chairman, before I move that this report be now considered, I wish to make a statement on the unsavoury allegations which appeared 62 2

Faku ever lived in the Transvaal? Since when has Kutu ever lived in Natal? Since when has Xobololo lived in the Orange Free State? The position is this that those areas have got their own inhabitants. The people of Gazankulu are fighting for their land and they have not asked you to assist them. The people of Bophuthatswana are fighting for their land and have not asked you to assist them, because you are cowardly enough not to clamour for your own land in the Transkei. The people of Kwazulu are fighting for their land and they have not asked you. All we are aiming at on this side of the House is to federate with those homelands. (Interjections). I heard the hon. member for Mount Fletcher yesterday, speaking about a multi-racial parliament ultimately. That is the parliament which we shall ultimately have when we have amalgamated all these homelands into one federated unit, but basically the policy which you accepted will remain. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You have not told us, we don't know whether you are going to be like Nyerere and get arms from Russia. You have not told us how you are going to attain your policy of multi-racialism. we have told you about our aims of getting a commonwealth of South African states, starting from this policy (thanks to the old man, the multi-racialist), bringing all the black homelands into a federated parliament and then saying to the white man in this country: You can join us in a commonwealth of South African states. But how are you going to get yours ? Be bold enough if you have got arms from China or Russia to tell us, because that is the only way you will get your policy of multi-racialism. You know, I could well understand that you might be able to do that - that is, if those hon. members who are fellow-travellers of Communism succeed in taking over the leadership of the Democratic Party ― and I would support what the hon. the Chief Minister said to my hon. friend, whom I respect very much, that he should be worried about some of these members in his party.

namely, that your in some of the English papers committee was divided into two opposing camps and that one of these camps advocated a multi-racial parliament. I wish to refute these allegations as unfounded and baseless. As you will see from the report contained in the Preliminary Blue Book, the report has the signatures of all the members of the committee. If there was a division of the nature referred to in the papers, a minority report should have been tabled giving the names of those members, according to the rules of constitutional law. Naturally, as in all committees there were differences which were expected and which were ironed out. I do not blame the Press very much, but if any of the members interviewed the Press and expressed division, those must be people opposed to this envisaged constitution, and if they did so they acted like Judas Iscariot. The committee was unanimous in arriving at the decision placed before you now and all the members should abide by their signature.” Then the hon. the Chief Minister was supported by the hon. member for Port St. John's, Mr. Lingham Maninjwa: "I am quite prepared to support the remarks made by the chairman of the recess committee. All the words he has uttered I entirely support. My last remark I am directing to the report that appeared in the Daily Dispatch on the 1st May. It is entirely unknown by the Pondos of Western Pondoland. I am not going to waste your time any further." Now, that was a report saying that there were members who were advocating a policy of multi-racialism. It was denied in the committee and not a single one of those members supported the fact that they were standing for the policy of multi-racialism. That is the six hon. members sitting across the floor who are today advocating a policy of multi-racialism, and blaming the Government for carrying out the wishes of the people of the Transkei. In 1964, when the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland , Paramount Chief Victor Poto, moved a vote of no confidence he gave figures showing the number of voters who had voted for the Democratic Party, and the number of voters who had voted for the Transkei National Independence Party, although he knew very well that the 1963 election was not fought on party lines. We have had two general elections fought on party lines and the Opposition has failed dismally on both those occasions. I remember the hon. member for Qumbu, Chief S. S. Majeke, after Mr. Dumalisile had won a bye-election, saying the people should accept defeat and they will be nobler. He said the voice of the people is the voice of the Lord. Will you accept the converse, hon. member, that the voice of the people during the 1973 election is the voice of the people ? The total votes are as follows :- For the Democratic 441-383 . So you got Party - 171 449; for the TNIP less than half of what we got. ( Interjections ). Yes, I can hear you saying "Intimidation". CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Yes, intimidation by chiefs. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, when people get beaten on the rugby field they blame the referee. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA : What about the Engcobo members?

You say "Engcobo". Does the shoe fit? In 1950 when the Communism Act was passed the communists in this country found themselves in a quagmire and a quandary. They sought asylum in the African National Congress and since then that body which had been renowed for being against all forms of violence became a violent body, because the policy of the communist is that if you cannot convince a man you must eliminate him. I am afraid that is what is going to happen in the Democratic Party so long as these fellow-travellers of Communism infiltrate into that party. There are already five of them from Engcobo. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA : How many from Cofinvaba? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You know there are none there. Now, I would like to reply personally to the allegations which have been made against my Department, although I will do so fully in my policy speech. You know, when some of the hon. members across the floor speak they seem to have a lot of cobwebs in their eyes, if not in their minds . Somebody told us about the sons of the Transkei who are on Robben Island. He said if this is a fully-fledged government they must bring those people back. I have never met that type of stupidity. You know very well that the Transkei is a self-governing state within South Africa. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: It is a mini-government. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You know very well that those gentlement who are serving sentences on Robben Island were convicted in a law court. Now, how does the Transkei Government come in?

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are here. I worked on a full list of election results and for that matter your votes in Engcobo compare very well with Lusikisiki. Now, I always hear these hon. members saying they don't want this "pondokkie", the Transkei , but they want the whole of South Africa. Since when has 63

skei they kick against it. That is a distorted logic. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN : I order that the hon. Chief de Villiers Mapassa be taken outside. Chief D Mapassa left the Chamber. CHAIRMAN: I now ask the mover of the motion to

MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: Why did you say: "Free Mandela"? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You can ask for that. How do you know we have not asked? We are not going to tell fellow-travellers of communists what we are doing. Some of the others accused the Education Department of shirking its duties. Now, hon. members should understand that any government has got a broad plan according to which it must work.

reply. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is hardly a minute ago when we saw the exhibitionism of the type of man who is supposed to decide the destiny of the Transkei, men who come here and have drowzed themselves into somnolence and have the destiny of the Transkei in their hands. He is not an isolated case, but a sample of the general majority that the Government boasts about. Probably since we started here we have had three members who have intruded themselves into the discussion whilst inebriated, and they have belonged to a party which is not the Opposition. This is the catastrophe of all matters that have to be decided by the black man for his future, that we collected all the not-so-intelligent, all the not-so-sober, all the not-so-understanding, and we say these are the leaders of the people to decide their destiny. A government which enjoys a majority that is drawn from men who are chiefs and headmen of tribal authorTHEY are ities and fall flat even on administration to legislate! They are the men who take applicants for disability grants to the magistrate five or six times during the year without placing these applicants before the magistrate because when they get to the magistrate's office they are half tipsy and altogether a disgrace to anybody. This is the majority that has got to decide the destiny of the black man in South Africa. Somebody says they have a majority even amongst the elected members. I can give you the history of each elected member, one by one, to show you to what extent they have surrendered themselves because they have been the victims of coercion, exploitation and persecution. (Interjections). Let not the Government boast that it has a majority of elected members MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It has.

For your information, I am informed that the Nyanda region is on the plan for having a training school and you expect training schools to be showered on all the regions in one day. Again, somebody (I think the hon. Chief Tutor Ndamase) spoke about the teacher- pupil ratio. The Transkeian Government cannot at the moment help what is happening throughout the country. You know that the people of the Transkei have suddenly taken up with education and to the dire need to have their children educated. You know very well that what has never happened before is happening today in the Transkei, where all the teacher trainees, usually about 500 of them, by the time they go home from their training they already know what schools they are going to teach in. You have seen it in your secondary schools. There are more secondary schools today than ever before. There are more high schools than ever before; but these secondary and high schools are today bursting at the seams because the people of the Transkei are today awake as far as education is concerned . So, hon. members, when we do criticize the Government for goodness ' sake let us do so constructively and also let us sympathize with the position of the Government ― that is, those hon. members who have the sense to criticize the Government on the question of the departments and their failures. Finally, I wish to say that all those people who think that they can have homogeneity out of the heterogeneous races in South Africa are nothing but political stargazers. (Laughter). The Transkei Government is pursuing this policy; the Transkei Government has a mandate to pursue this policy the mandate from the people of the Transkei and do not need any mandate from the twenty members of the Opposition; the Transkei Government knows where it is heading; the Transkei Government knows its goal. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : What is it?

MR. GUZANA : . . . when we know that these are double-faced political supporters of the Government. They are spineless political jackdaws who walk out of this House and say to us : Please continue to speak in that way - we would like to but we are afraid. (Laughter). You don't know about it because they will not tell you. We will know about it because they come to us, but because they know they will suffer under an iron heel, almost Hitler-like in its persecution, they crawl on their belly and support this Government. A majority — Bah! Even Falstaff would be ashamed to lead this conglomeration. (Laughter). Now, the hon. the Minister of Justice has again (and how often has he done so) read us voluminous and copious extracts, he has given us paragraph after paragraph, and he says the members of the Opposition were responsible for the policy of separate development. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Do you deny what was quoted in those paragraphs ? MR. GUZANA: He told us that the members of Emigrant Tembuland opposed this. What a political somersault we have here - the members of Emigrant Tembuland being the champions of separate development when they opposed it. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, we were elected by the people. MR. GUZANA: When they did not want to cook the pot they are the first to dip into the gravy, and when

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you want to know? You have been asleep because I told you about the commonwealth of South Africa, about the federation of the black races in South Africa. CHIEF MAJEKE: The black races? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The federation first of the black races of South Africa. Our concern is black solidarity and then when we have got that black solidarity we can turn round to the white people of South Africa and say we would like to join them in a commonwealth of the races of South Africa or a federation of the races or whatever you like to call it. That is what we are heading for. MR. L. L. MGUDLWA: What is the attitude of the eight Natives? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : By the way, there is something I must remind you of, to which you have never replied. Perhaps you will be able to reply to it on Monday when the motion of independence is discussed. Perhaps you will be able to reply to it when the land question is discussed. I have never seen people who say they want the whole of the land in South Africa but when we say we want the land in the Tran64

itself penalties at strategic points. (Laughter) Then at the end of it all it stands at the top of the hill and says: Hurrah, separate development is accepted! It is time you became aware of a solid majority of people whose political allegiance is frustrated by terrorism on the part of members of the Government. At last we have been told where the governing party is going to. We have had four or five hon. members from the Government side telling us quite clearly that separate development is not their policy. By way of interjections we have asked: What is your policy? The hon. the Chief Minister has shied off that question and has refused to give us a reply and has said they will make a statement on their policy at a suitable time. The hon. the Chief Minister held up a copy of the Transkei Constitution Act and said their policy was contained in that, and so separate development is a stalking horse for something undisclosed and unamed. We are not putting any words into your mouths; it is from your own mouths that separate development is not your policy. So now the cat is out of the bag a race federation. I want to ask hon. members of the Government why castigate Sir de Villiers Graaff? Why castigate Mr. Hughes?

they have tasted it they tell us this is not their policy - it is the policy of the Republican Government. They submit hollow arguments about Faku never having been in Cape Town or anywhere else, as if some kings of Great Britain were ever in South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada. Some of these arguments are illogical to the point of being stupid. Pleas made on behalf of these various departments that we should not be too harsh in criticizing them - didn't this Government know in 1964 that the black man in South Africa is hungry for education? Didn't this Government know that there would be a need for more and more schools more and more teachers? And ten years later we are asked to indulge this Government further when the pupil-teacher ratio makes teaching a farce in our schools. When the Education Act was passed by this Government in 1964 did you not plan for the future? CHIEF MINISTER: In 1965. MR. GUZANA : Yes, 1965 If we are going to continue to indulge this Government for its failure we will find a generation going into the world without an education.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We don't want their federation.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is a far-fetched assumption. MR. GUZANA: At the moment thousands of children are being turned away from the schools and roaming the streets because they cannot get into a classroom, and if this Government does not realise the problem of the lack of teachers it is threatening white teachers to get out, thus creating a further problem in this already difficult situation. That is the Africanization which is tantamount to cutting off our noses to spite our faces. You can have Africanization because the "haves" are the Whites, the "have-nots" are the Blacks; but this must be done so that we can secure ordered development and not to satisfy rabid nationalist ideologies which are the cancer of some of the men who are at the head of these departments. It has been suggested that the governing party got more votes than the Opposition during the 1973 election. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is not a suggestion, it is a fact. MR. GUZANA: And it is stated that this is a fact. What do you expect? This is typical of all governments based on separate development . Once this polecat gets on top, it never wants to get down. (Laughter) It will exploit administrative bodies, exploit civil servants and use everything in order to kill opposition. Tribal authorities were used as nomination courts for TNIP candidates .

MR. GUZANA: You want race federation and the United Party wants race federation. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We want federation of the black man.

MR. GUZANA: In other words, your political philosophy is based on race division. Let us be honest will you be honest? Don't come here and criticise the United Party on its race federation policy. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Why shouldn't we? MR. GUZANA: Well, go to them and ask them how it works. Only last year or the year before last in this House the hon. the Minister of Justice had a diagram of his federal concept and when I asked for it he would not hand it over, but I had seen it was almost identical with the diagram of the United Party's concept of federation. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There were two diagrams. MR. GUZANA: All right, produce them now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I haven't got them here. There were two, and I showed you the difference between ours and the United Party's. MR. GUZANA: You did not. Produce them now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I did show you. MR. GUZANA: We are being told about a confedenration of independent states. What legislative and judicial powers can be vested in a constitution which founds a confederation? If you are going to have a confederation you are bringing together independent states dealing with internal and external policies of their states independent of any other state, so there is no room for legislative and judicial powers in a confederation of independent states.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Why didn't you use them? MR. GUZANA: Chiefs who are administrative officers were agents for the TNIP. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Why didn't you use them? MR. GUZANA: It is indeed a wonder, a miracle, that there is any member of this House who is opposed to separate development. One wonders what would happen if you were to be disabused of all the accoutrements and appurtenances of administrative machinery and have an election without those. An analogy has been given of the team which condemns the referee when it has lost the game. Now, I have been trying to find out in my own mind who the referee is in this political clash ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is the Department of the Interior. You have been blaming them. MR GUZANA: ... and I see that the man who blows the whistle is the governing party, and it awards

CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, as in the United States of America. MR. GUZANA: I thought the hon. the Chief Minister during his 42 days' stay in the United States had studied the American Constitution.

CHIEF MINISTER: I did. All these states are completely independent. MR. GUZANA: Firstly, the United States has a federal system of government, not a confederal system of government.

65

MR. GUZANA: You go to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and ask him how this Act became an Act. He will tell you. CHIEF MINISTER : Yes.

CHIEF MINISTER : A federal system of independent states. MR. GUZANA: Secondly, the states of the United States of America are autonomous, not independent. May I ask this Government to think clearly, constitutionally and policy-wise. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You have not told us how you are going to get your multi-racial policy. Just tell us.

MR. GUZANA: That's right. Now just go and ask him . CHIEF MINISTER: Just tell us what you would do with this Constitution if you were an alternative government. MR. GUZANA: Now, I think we have to deal with some other matters, because we have here a pair that knows no reasoning, (Laughter) but I have got to get my message across to their followers. Their interference with my address is merely intended to keep these men ignorant. The hon. the Minister of Justice said he hoped that next year I would move a motion of no confidence in the Constitution. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And the House, not particularly the Government. MR. GUZANA: And a motion of no confidence in the House. In view of the fact that you have said that you do not care for this policy, you ought to move that motion.

MR. GUZANA: This is a question that has been raised often in this House ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, it has been, because you don't reply to it. MR. GUZANA: .. and we don't have to answer this question. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Oh, get away. Why not? MR. GUZANA: Because it is the Government's policy that is being examined now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yours is being examined too. That is what I told you.

MR. GUZANA: You have to justify your policy. CHIEF MINISTER: You want to be an alternative government. Tell us what your policy is. MR. GUZANA: If we were to be an alternative government the first thing we would do would be to reduce you to your headmanship. (Laughter) That is Number One. Secondly, we would recognize de jure the multi-racial situation in the Transkei.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are keen on moving it. CHIEF MINISTER: Wait and see on Monday. It is coming on Monday. MR. GUZANA : On top of this hon. member for Tabankulu said : "If he will be there." Now, I know the dangers that arise from members of the governing party and the hon. the Chief Minister knows how much danger faces him from this hon. member. (Laughter) I must say that if he should try that sort of thing on me he will kiss a bullet. (Laughter) I am not interested in any threats from nincompoops, nor will I condone any lies from that hon. member. CHIEF MINISTER: We will put you in gaol once you shoot people. MR. GUZANA: If I shoot anyone and if you put me in gaol then I shall indeed be a murderer, but these would-be murderers who are running footloose are a danger to everybody. (Laughter) The statement was made to the effect that I planned murder. The hon. member for Tabankulu said, as reported in the Daily Dispatch of 20th March: "Mr. K. Guzana was accused of plotting to involve certain members of the Democratic Party in political murder." MR. C. DIKO : You are doing it now with them. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I treat this utterance from the hon. member for Tabankulu with disdain and contempt. In plain English language it is a lie, and there is no justification for that allegation. Let us see to what extent the mouth that spouts out these lies is clean. After having mysteriously and secretly planned the murder of the hon. the Chief Minister and involving themselves with Messrs. Burger and Dunne, this hon. member finds as an obstacle to the achievement of this objective the lack of money. They were to hire a paid assassin and the idea was that no suspicion should fall upon him and the others. I have before me a transcribed conversation between this hon. member and his men. I am not going to name the other men because they never said anything. During that conversation, which was on 9th February 1966 somewhere in Tabankulu, somebody says : “Roley sends his regards.”

CHIEF MINISTER: And the Constitution? MR. GUZANA : We will give you this Constitution for your edification as a headman in Cofimvaba. CHIEF MINISTER : Tell us what you would do.

MR. GUZANA: You seem to have the impression that a constitution is a rigid document that ties down people, but even with this Constitution we can set up a multi-racial hotel in Umtata. Even under this Constitution we can declare an open zone in Umtata. Even under this Constitution we can establish multi-racial holiday resorts along the coast. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And a legislative assembly? CHIEF MINISTER : And then where would be your parliament? MR. GUZANA : Even under this Constitution we could stop making you go round to the back door when you go to the post office. (Interjections) We can do that without even referring to this Constitution. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Then why did you want to scrap it ? That Constitution is based on separate development. MR. GUZANA: We would allow you to form an Opposition based on this Constitution once we continued with the government under multi-racialism. CHIEF MINISTER: That Constitution is established in terms of separate development. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The whole thing is simple. Just say you would scrap the Constitution. MR. GUZANA: The trouble is that if I were to scrap the Constitution I would have to scrap you too. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And yourself, too. That is why you won't do it.

MR. GUZANA: Now, I am quite tolerant of people who have fixed their minds on a misconception. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Just like you. CHIEF MINISTER: Just tell me now — who made this Constitution? Who composed this law?

GOVT. MEMBERS : Who is Roley? MR. GUZANA: Roley, of course, is Roley Ahrenstein, the communist, and the hon. member for Tabankulu says :

66

been growing and producing men of stature of Mosaka, men like Mtimkulu.

"Oh, thanks very much.” Another member of this party says: "I have heard a lot about you from Roley." The hon. member for Tabankulu says: "Oh!" as if he did not want it to be known. Let me just take a few extracts from this. I shall not take them all because some should not be repeated.

CHIEF MINISTER : It was a Native College. MR. GUZANA: If you say it was a Native College, then don't object when we say "you eight Natives" went to Pretoria. (Laughter) CHIEF MINISTER: No, I can't object to that.

MR. C. DIKO: Come to no-confidence, please. You are wasting time. MR. GUZANA: This hon. member from Tabankulu says: "We have difficulty, man. We are always wanting to be free and are unable to . We have not got the brains yet how to get free. That is our trouble.” (Laughter) Somewhere else he says : "The money I want, I am not interested in any other thing, We want the lump sum." And his whole approach is : “You see, if we could get the money we could get on with our organization. Nobody will be suspicious of any of us." And this is a conversation after plans had been made to kill the Chief Minister, after plans had been made to secure the assassin, after guns had been examined and tested out, after bullets had been dug out of the ground then these people come to the hon. member for Tabankulu. That is all very disgusting and I shall not keep myself in this cesspool of murderers, pseudo-murderers and people who get agitated because they cannot secure ends peacefully, constitutionally. Mr. Chief Minister, may I ask really, in your own interests, have you exercised ..

MR. GUZANA: Very good. Now, this Native College accommodated Indians, Coloureds and Blacks .. CHIEF MINISTER: And no Whites. MR. GUZANA : • and your friends were the Naidoos ... CHIEF MINISTER : The Govenders. MR. GUZANA: ... the Govenders and so on. Don't you know that you have been enriched by that association? You have told us that there has been an increase in the number of Transkeian civil servants who have taken over jobs. Now, what has grown with this? You are aware that there has been bribery and corruption. CHIEF MINISTER : Where? MR. GUZANA: You find it where people come to have administrative requirements done for them by your clerks. We meet there a growing insolence towards the public; we get to the office and we find clerks consuming pseudo-Coca Cola, and the poor members of the public have to wait until this pseudo-Cola Cola is consumed. You get to the offices and you find that the officials who should be there are not in their offices. Were I in your position I would rather • CHIEF MINISTER: Not in my department. All my officers are always on duty.

CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, everything should be through the Chair. MR. GUZANA : I addressed him as "Mr. Chief Minister", so that it was not really personally. Through you, Mr. Chairman - Mr. Chief Minister, because I am concerned about your life, may I ask you this question: Have you done anything to exercise the murderous intentions of this hon. member for Tabankulu? You saw how he performed in this House when he was speaking. He was foaming at the mouth and sweating all over.

MR. GUZANA: I would rather say I would like the Transkeian citizens who have been given these responsible positions to show themselves responsible enough to hold those positions. CHIEF MINISTER: They are growing. MR. GUZANA: Yes, but you don't want a child to grow for ten years and still be crawling after ten years. If it is still crawling then it is deformed and there is something wrong with the policy. This Government has told the world that if the Ciskei does not amalgamate with it then it will go it alone, that when a certain stage is reached constitutionally, this Government will unilaterally seize Glen Grey. (Interjections) In the same context of heated dialogue the Minister of Bantu Administration says if these Natives fight us we will fight them. (Laughter)

CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is going too far and in terms of the rules he cannot attack the personal character of a member of this House. We shall appeal to you now, Sir. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, without your saying anything, enough has been said about a bad situation. Now, you know what is going to happen. I hope I shall be given a revolver to carry with me. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is not often that we get a repetition of what are alleged to be achievements of separate development. We have had listed before us the schools that have been put up, as if they have a perculiar characteristic, almost a distinctive mark earmarking them as different from other schools set up under any other policy; as if these schools are an embodiment of the philosophy of separate development; as if progress does not take place willy-nilly; as if South Africa would stand still if there were a policy other than the policy of separate development.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Deputy Minister it was Raubenheimer. MR. GUZANA: Further, the Prime Minister said: "You boys, no more than what we provide for you. If you want more you can go and jump in the lake." (Laughter) CHIEF MINISTER: We will discuss that on Monday. MR. GUZANA: Yes, we will certainly do so, but within this agitated talk between the Transkei and the Republican Government you have a Government which says it rejects its policy of separate development, and the hon. the Chief Minister says he is not interested in dialogue with the Republican Government. In view of that statement I am not surprised that men like the hon. member for Tabankulu have been recruited into the TNIP.

CHIEF MINISTER: It did stand still. The amount spent on education was only R340 000. MR. GUZANA: The hon. the Chief Minister says South Africa did stand still. CHIEF MINISTER: Exactly, as far as your people are concerned. MR. GUZANA: So it stood still and graduated him as a Bachelor of Arts under the University of South Africa. You see, we cannot have our cake and eat it and from 1916 the College of Fort Hare grew, has

CHIEF MINISTER: You can't talk like that. He is a chief. MR. GUZANA: Yes, he is a chief, but these chiefs

67

Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Matanzima Magadla Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr. Mafika Pacoe Ludidi Mr. Dalindyebo John Ndleleni Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Colley Dabula Mr. Mdunyelwa Nicholas Makaula Acting Chief Sicitana Candulwandle Dalasile Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Kaizer Ndamase Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Bokololo Phillip Vapi Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Chief Zwelabantu Diko Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Dorrington Ndamase Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla

who want to kill their subjects need to know where they get off. CHIEF MINISTER: Finish off now. MR. GUZANA: May I finish? Do you understand now? I have been told to finish because there are some hon. members who seem inclined to follow us as I speak, because they realise that separate development will land them in the soup and they realise that if one is lost it is time to return home. We cannot remain alone in this country without the other South African citizens. You have adopted the idea that the white people should not remain in the Transkei and yet you send your own people into the cities of the Republic. You cannot even give your own people employment, but you send lorryloads of people to the Ciskei. I want to sound this warning - that it is nice to speak nice words about the nice things you hope to enjoy, but you must be realistic. A Utopia has never been realised in this world, and the evidence shows that separate development is not the panacea of race relationships in South Africa. Why not commit yourself to co-operation and living together and working together with the other races in South Africa? CHIEF MINISTER: And live as underdogs ? MR. GUZANA: If you think you will live as underdogs in that situation then you have no belief in your ability to compete with other people. CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want the policy of "One man, one vote"? MR. GUZANA: You concede that you are a secondrate human being and therefore you must be pushed aside and away from other human beings. Mr. Chairman, hon. members, I have been asked to stop. I shall now stop, but this House has no confidence in this Government.

Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Wiseman Gontsana Nkwenkwezi Chief Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Temba Mhlabunzima Makaula Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Acting Chief Xego Sami Momi Mr. Mxosana Jackson Sigwela

CHAIRMAN: The question before the House is a motion by the hon. member, Mr. K. M. Guzana “That this House has no confidence in the Government”, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister. I shall start with the amendment, which is "That this House has full confidence in the Government." The amendment was carried after a division as follows:-

TELLERS:

1. L. L. Mgudlwa.

AYES

2. C. N. Diko. Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola 1 Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Silas Walker Mbanga Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Popo Pakamile Chief Sithembele Mgundlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Chief George Sibidla Ndabankulu Acting Chief Msopana Bonkolo Mr. Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr. Walton Langalibalele Sipuka Chief Gwadana Merriman Dondashe Mr. Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau

TOTAL: 69 NOES

Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Gadini Gordon Kutu Mr. Sipiwo Alfred Xobololo Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Khalakulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile Mr. Gebane Norman Sipunzi 68

TELLERS:

excise duties in the Transkei and transfer them to the Transkei." 27. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of providing "" Radiotherapy and Physiotherapy facilities in Umtata.'

1. W. C. Singata 2. W. S. Mbanga

TOTAL: 21 The question was put and the motion as amended, "That this House has full confidence in the Government" was carried. The House adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 25 March 1974.

APPROPRIATION BILL: FIRST READING MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table:(1) The Estimates of Expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkeian Revenue Fund during the year ending 31st March 1975; and (2) Estimates of Revenue to be received during the year ending 31st March 1975. Mr. Chairman, in terms of section 53 of the Transkeian Constitution Act 1963 I wish to convey to the Assembly the recommendation of the Minister of Finance for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkei Appropriation Bill 1974. Mr. Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Appropriation Bill 1974 and I move that the bill be now read a first time.

MONDAY, 25TH MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the budget speech will be delivered by the Chief Minister on Wednesday, the 27th day of March 1974 at 2.15 p.m. The Business Committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 5 p.m. this afternoon. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I think it is known, and if not it should be known, that the dignity of this House should be upheld by hon. members. It is very despicable and not appropriate for members to be personal in addressing this House. What took place here at the end of last week was not appropriate whatsoever. I will again implore the grace of members of this House to please uphold their dignity and the dignity of this House.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF FINANCE : The second reading will be on Wednesday, 27th March, at 2.15 p.m. REQUEST FOR INDEPENDENCE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, during the 1972 session of this House I moved that the Republican Government should grant the Transkeian Territories full independence. On that occasion I referred to the Transkei comprising 29 districts, including Maclear, Elliot and Mount Currie in East Griqualand. Today my motion reads as follows :"That in the opinion of this Legislative Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei within a period of five years on the following conditions :(a) That the land promised to the Transkei in terms of the 1936 legislation of the Union of South Africa be granted to the Territory within a period of five years . (b) That such a grant shall not prejudice the right of the Transkei to the Districts originally claimed, and (c) That a Recess Committee consisting of 26 members of this House with the Chief Minister as Chairman and 27th member be appointed by this House to consider: (i) Drafting Constitutional proposals to be tabled before the House of Assembly for legislation declaring the Transkei an independent state ; (ii) the financial implications of the said independence on the Transkei ; (iii) the boundaries of the aforesaid state; (iv) the implication of the said independence on the Chieftainships of the various Tribes in the Transkei; (v) the possibility of opening negotiations with the Ciskei Government on the amalgamation of the two Units into one National Unit in terms of the Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act 1959; (vi) the international relations between the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa; (vii) other incidental matters pertaining to the contemplated independent state of the Transkei;

NOTICES OF BILLS MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman, I rise to give notice to introduce a bill amending the Transkei Road Traffic Act, Act No. 5 of 1967. The sole purpose of this bill is to bring the Transkei Road Traffic Act into uniformity with the rest of the Republic. MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, may I draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that this is an important day and we are going to discuss an important motion. In view of the letter which is in your hands through your Secretary, declaring the hon. member for Mqanduli as an outcast as leader of that party, I think this House must not allow him to discuss as a leader. His party has taken him out of the party leadership and the Press has made it known to the world that someone else is the leader. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of this House, whatever we have to discuss in this House should be official and through the right channels. We shall pass on now to the next item on the order paper. NOTICES OF MOTION 25.

Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of relaxing and abolishing the strict "means test" applied in case of applications for Old Age Pensions and Disability Grants, to increase these by at least 20% and these to be paid monthly to such incumbents instead of being paid bimonthly as is the case at present." 26. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to so amend section 39 of act 48 of 1963 that the Transkei Legislative Assembly shall have power to control and manage customs and excise duties in the Transkei or, alternatively the Republican Government calcultate all customs and

$69

intentionally perpetrated by the British South Africans who controlled the political ideologies of the time. I regret to say the Opposition members across the floor labour under that misconception. Their utterances reflect their misdirected thinking. Every human being would like to enjoy a certain amount of freedom with limitations against interference with other people. The black people of South Africa have throughout history been subjected to legal or statutory disabilities which curtailed their freedom. The struggle of the last 64 years has been directed at getting the freedom enjoyed by other nations all the world over. But because of white fear of domination by the majority Blacks in South Africa we have been denied all that makes life worth living. Now, if I would refer to the Acts dealing with the franchise rights which have been denied to us I would refer hon. members to the South Africa Act of 1910 which specifically laid down that only the white people would be represented in the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town and that only the black Cape voters who voted on a qualified franchise could vote for white members of parliament. The remainder of black South Africa has no franchise rights whatsoever, hence the disparity between black and white in all that makes life worth living in South Africa.

(viii) That the Republican Government be asked to make available certain officials to serve in an advisory capacity on the said Committee." Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in order to put this motion into its true perspective and in order to show this House and the country at large what the aspirations of our people have been during the past, I should say, ten years, I wish to quote what the Paramount Chief of Tembuland said on the occasion when the proposal was made in this House by one of the hon. members on the Opposition benches that the Transkei should be given self-government. I regret, however, that the hon. paramount chief is not in his seat this morning, but his representative is present and I wish he will convey this quotation to the hon. paramount chief. This is what the hon. paramount chief said when the Transkeian Territorial Authority moved a motion for the granting of self-government by the South African Government in 1961. I will quote from the speech I delivered in this House in 1972 and this will be found in the Hansard on page 120. He said : "If the Government would encourage us to take up self-government , why can we not accept that willingly and with open arms and leave these authorities (meaning the Bantu authorities) alone? I do not know why it has been suggested that we should take time over the matter because we do not lack Bantu intellectuals in the Transkei. In fact, we are too many to count who can go into this matter. I think in the Transkei alone we have over 200 graduates. It may be surprising to hear that there are countries in Africa where independence has been granted but you can hardly find more than twenty graduates in such areas. Having advanced so much, why should we be reluctant to accept a thing of this kind?" Now, referring to me the paramount chief continued and said : "For instance, look at our Presiding he is a graduate himself. Some Territorial Chief fears have been expressed in this House that we lack funds, but let me assure you that the Bantu people have plenty of money. They even have money to waste. When a kind father allows his son to go and erect his own kraal he gives him a start. The Government as a sincere father will give us a start. If we are serious in attaining self-government it means that some of us will have to take off our jackets and ties and work hard. Some people are now eager to know what date independence should be declared. I tell them it should be the date when this motion was introduced ― that is, 19th

The white people in the white parliament naturally had to consider the interests primarily of their own group - that is, the white group and naturally the black people who were regarded as a subject race constituted a second-class race in South Africa who had no citizenship rights in South Africa whatsoever. As a natural consequence the black people of South Africa were deprived of all rights to property which were enjoyed by the white people. Now, these are the rights which, in my own submission, constitute the freedom of the individual ― the freedom to which everybody is aspiring right throughout the length and breadth of the world. Basically these rights can only be acquired in a free state by a free people. It is these considerations which have made the Government party resolve to have the Transkei independent. We have the franchise rights in our own self-governing state, but we do not have living wages and salaries and we do not own the territory we occupy. Everybody knows that the towns of the Transkei still belong to the Republican Government and certain portions of land which have been released to the South African Bantu Trust still belong to the Republican Government. In other words, we have no sovereign power over our own affairs. What we seek in this motion is complete sovereignty over all departments of state including Defence and Foreign Affairs and to be represented at the United Nations and be free to make treaties with any other country which is friendly disposed towards our own.

April 1961. I do not know what fears we are entertaining here because our Minister is very happy that we are asking for self-government." Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the history of South Africa testifies that it has been the determination of white South Africa as a whole never to give full rights of citizenship to the black man in this common country of ours. The South African Native Affairs Commision of 1903-05 appointed by the Prime Minister of the Cape Colony, Mr. Milner, although it was predominantly composed of British South Afrcans, advocated policies of separation in the field of land and of parliamentry representation, which policies were duly embodied in the Natives' Land Act of 1913, and that was the Act passed when General Botha was Prime Minister of the Union, and in the Hertzog Native Trust and Land Act of 1936. There has been a grave misconception that the people of British origin in South Africa had an acceptable and more liberal attitude towards the Africans and that the Afrikaans-speaking people were responsible for segregation or apartheid.

GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : I anticipate that the question to be put to me by the Opposition members is : What about your land claims? My answer is as follows: The motion is clear about our attitude on the question of land. We still maintain, Mr. Chairman, that Elliot, Maclear, Mount Currie and the farms in Matatiele form part of the Transkei. Our Submissions are based on history. We anticipate that white South Africa will take heed of the late Dr. Verwoerd's advice that they should make sacrifices for future harmonious relations in South Africa and by so doing incorporate these areas into the Transkei, in addition to the land that has been allocated to us in terms of the 1936 legislation. These areas fall within the territory demarcated for us by Queen Victoria and remained part of the Transkei until 1st January 1914

7070

The disenfranchisement of our people in 1910 was

stand that they are losing friendly countries because of their selfishness? They occupy seven-eighths of South African soil. General Hertzog did his best and contributed to a more acceptable formula on the land question. The world expects the present Government of the Republic of South Africa to settle the land question once and for all. It cannot be done by adhering rigidly to the provisions of the 1936 legislation. The Transkei has made reasonable proposals and expects the Republican Government to react favourably, bearing in mind the amount of wealth contributed by its citzens in building up South Africa as a whole. I want to submit, and do so categorically, that we do not require the expropriation of the land settled by the Whites in the areas that we claim. What we want is just the inclusion of the areas with their occupiers in order that we should have a right to purchase property anywhere in those areas a right denied us by the provisions of the Land Act of 1913 and the Native Trust and Land Act of 1936. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to submit that the only alternative to the principle of separate nationalities is an integrated society in South Africa with representation in parliament on the principle of one man, one vote. There is no alternative. Now, this principle of one man, one vote is opposed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his group, He wants representation of the black man in a white parliament by a few Whites - say eight ― with a qualified franchise for the voters, and he wants that in the 20th century when everybody is clamouring for independence. Where else do you find that in the world except in the Republic of South Africa? That is the defunct policy of the dead United Party which will never come anywhere in the politics of South Africa. To us that is a retrogressive step and an admission of non-equality between Black and White. Mr. Chairman, one argument that the doubting Thomases have raised against independence is : As a small undeveloped country, where shall we get the money for running our independent state? In order to make their rusty brains a little clearer I would refer them to the statement I made in 1972 on this very point. This is what I said on that occasion : "The Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic has categorically stated that economic viability is not a prerequisite to the attainment of self-government by any state." I also want to quote what the Minister of Bantu Administration said on the very piont: "The development and growth of a nation and its land embrace a wide complexity of facets of life which should develop as a balanced unit. These facets of life can be summarized as follows in a few general categories : ( 1 ) Political or constitutional development of self-government for a nation en route to independence. (2) Agricultural development in the wide sense of the word, agriculture being historically the first economic activity of the Bantu (3) Physical development of the land, which includes roads, bridges, towns, railways, fencing, soil conservation, etc. (4) General economic development, which includes mining of mineral resources, promotion of industry, commerce, forestry and the like. (5) Social development e.g. school and university education, health services, welfare work, etc. (6) Spiritual development of the nation. (7) Human development - that is,

when Elliot and Maclear were incorporated into the Republic and in 1963 when Mount Currie was, after the passing of the Transkei Constitution Act, also incorporated into the Republic of South Africa. We are convinced that granting independence to the Transkei as requested will solve the racial problem between Black and White and will be the forerunner of what the situation will be between the Republic and other Bantu homelands. We are convinced that white South Africa is desirous of finding an acceptable formula for a permanent and peaceful solution of the race problem which has made this country the centre of political onslaughts from other countries. We are operating from a position of helplessness as conquered people, but we feel a meaningful solution can be found by the conquerors to free us, and this entails sacrifices on their part as they have enjoyed all the wealth of this country to our detriment. What advantages will independence bring to the people of the Transkei? I hope Opposition members will note my reply. (1) Freedom of individuals free to go anywhere subject to statutory provisions in our own constitution and in international law. In other words, freedom from the operation of the Republican pass laws applying to Blacks only. (2) Free communication and contractual agreements with any friendly state on financial matters, transport and defence. (3) Planning the future of the Transkei as we please and not as directed by Pretoria. GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

CHIEF MINISTER: (4) Contractual agreements on establishment of industries and injection of economy into the Transkei. (5) Finding experts for the agricultural development of our country from anywhere in the world. (6) Finding employment for our people by means of a treaty which will bind on the Republic of South Africa. (7) Stepping up our educational system and passing legislation on compulsory education. (8) Abolishing discrimination in our own state and set a lesson to the Republic. (9) Passing legislation against communistic ideologies in our state. ( 10) Payment of a living wage and salary to our worker, taking the wages and salaries of the Republic as our standard. Mr. Chairan, these are the basic advantages of a free, sovereign and independent country and to me the advantages outweigh the disadvantages which I anticipate will be raised by the Opposition. The terms of reference are clear and unambiguous and it is not necessary for me to elucidate much on them. We need provisions in our Constitution which will entrench the institution of chieftainship, because the chiefs are the traditional leaders of their people. They are charged with many duties which have led to sound administration in our country. We require a definition of the boundries between the Transkei and the Republic. We need the assistance of constitutional experts like Mr. J. H. T. Mills from the Republic to help us in drafting our Constitution. We require a financial treaty showing what amounts will be contributed by the Republican Government towards our revenue from year to year. Mr. Chairman, we know very well that the United Party of the Republican Parliament is vehemently opposed to the granting of independence and more land to the Transkei and has hypnotized the Opposition members into being their henchmen. As the Republican Nationalist Party that relieved our plight by granting us self-government is certainly going to win this election, we are certain that our requests will be granted. The British, French and Spanish territories in Africa have been freed. South Africa, Portugal and Rhodesia are being blamed for oppressing the black aborigines

the inner development of the individual in respect of dispositions and civilized responses such as with regard to labour, intiative in connection with progress, cultural development and so forth." Mr. Chairman, the development of these facets of life have been the concern of my Government since its inception in 1964 and in collaboration with the Republican Government we have 71

gone a long way in attaining the required success. Now, if the hon. members across the floor are not in a position to understand, I can only refer them to the small states in Africa and Southern Africa that are independent, far smaller than the Transkei, and put the question: How do these countries run their own affairs? Now, hon. members, we were independent long before the white man stepped into this country and subjugated us. We shall survive in the same manner that our forefathers survived.

under the chairmanship of the Chief Minister. The communication of this motion, if passed, will be made to the Republican Government and probably preliminary meetings will be held between the said committee and the Prime Minister or the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. Each district will as far as possible be represented on this committee, Opposition members inclusive. The committee will draft constitutional proposals and after reporting to the House during the session of 1975 the Cabinet will submit the resolution of this House to the Republican Government for legislation in their parliament of January 1976. As soon as this Constitution has been promulgated, with all the powers I have I will dissolve this House and have elections in October 1976. I hope this House will deal with this matter on a national basis and take it above party politics.

GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER: We cannot remain a subject race indefinitely. Before the Second World War South Africa was a poor and under-developed country with very few industries. Economic growth on a large scale escalated after the Second World War and South Africa became a rich country with its gold reserves controlling the balance of economic power. This same process of economic development is happening in all the free countries of the world, however small they are. Politically the Transkei has been exemplary in controlling its own affairs peacefully and responsibly. From the days of the UTTGC the Transkei built up its constitutional development through the Territorial Authority stages to self-government. Today we are soliciting the Republican Government to grant us the last and final stage of our constitutional developments

Mr C. DIKO: Abolish the Opposition, that's all. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, hon. members of the House, I thank the members on both sides for listening to me, a dynamic and pragmatic speaker on this side of the House. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, with all due repect I think the House would like to have an adjournment, particularly the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

CHIEF MINISTER: This does not mean that we shall not need the assistance of the mother country in: (1) Industrial development. (2) The top posts in the judiciary. (3) Technical posts in our civil service. (4) Training our defence force and defending our country against external attacks. (5) Planning for full economic growth. I wish to lay stress on the defence of the Transkei. Every able-bodied man will be enlisted for service in our army.

CHIEF P. JOZANA: I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned.

AFTERNOON SESSION REQUEST FOR INDEPENDENCE The debate was resumed. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I rise to move an amendment to the motion:-

GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : There will be no "tsotsis" running around the streets. In times of trouble in South Africa our forces will fight side by side with the Republican forces in defence of our neighbouring states

(b) to delete all the words after "Government" from "should" to "the" before the word "Republican" and substitute therefor the following words "before approaching the"; (b) to delete all the words after the word "Transkei" to the end of paragraphs (c) (viii) and substitute the following words:"should refer the whole subject of independence to the voters of the Transkei wherever they are, explain the implications of such a constitutional step and seek by way of a referendum the attitude of the people towards independence, and if favourable, obtain a mandate thereto"; so that the motion as amended will read: "That in the opinion of this Legislative Assembly, the Government, before approaching the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei should refer the whole subject of Independence to the voters of the Transkei, wherever they are, explain the full implication of such a constitutional step and seek, by way of a referendum the attitude of the people towards independence , and if favourable, obtain a mandate thereto."

GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

CHIEF MINISTER : • because if the Transkei is conquered the enemy will find a stepping-stone into the Republic. If the Republic falls it will be the fall of the Transkei. Our young men and women will continue to be employed and seek employment in the Republic. This will be done by means of international agreement between the two countries. The people of Lesotho, Swaziland , Botswana, Zambia, Malawi, Portugal, etc., are employed in the Republican mines and in dustries. Those are free countries and some of them less economically viable than the Transkei. Independence will bring us the dignity, respect and the wealth enjoyed by the other independent states in Southern Africa. Friendly relations with the neighbouring states will be cultivated to the full. Now, Mr Chairman, as regards the amalgamation of the Ciskei and the Transkei I may only say these two areas constitute one unit and that their unity at this very important stage, the last ladder in constitutional development is a sine qua non essential in the building up of our economic and political development. It is my hope that when the matter comes for consideration by the two governments, national unity will be put above selfish considerations and that national interests will be paramount . I propose the appointment of a recess committee of 27 members 72 72

First of all, Mr Chairman, I want to respond to the appeal of the hon. the Chief Minister to have this matter discussed above party politics, and I think the appeal is justified because this is a matter of national importance. We accept the fact that not all the citizens of the Transkei owe allegiance either to the Democratic Party or to the TNIP, but their views are very relevant and very important in deciding this issue of indepen-

using force to maintain their sovereignty. In this connection I want to refer to the constitutional changes which brought with them the Pondoland disturbances, where the introduction of tribal authorities precipitated violent reaction because this had not been preceded by education, by propaganda, by obtaining the consensus of opinion on this constitutional change. It is therefore important at all times to guarantee peace, order and good government by bringing about changes based on seasoned and tried experience in governmental exercise, and in this context I want us to exclude the confusion that has attached to the words "independence" and "freedom". Regularly people speak of independence as freedom, as if freedom is dependent upon independence or that freedom is synonymous with independence, and political leaders tend to exploit this confusion by offering people independence as one and the same thing as freedom. Freedom is really freedom of the individual, the individual exercising his rights in relation to the rights of others, for independence can bring about a loss of freedom. It is suggested that the Africans' freedom is curtailed by the white man and that the black man is oppressed by legal limitations imposed by a white government, but the emancipation of the black man from those limitations is not necessarily associated with independence. History has shown how countries have acquired independence but have been bogged down by economic dependence which has emasculated all the virtues of being free, and freedom therefore can be enjoyed in spite of and without independence whilst it may come with independence. We have been reminded of the decision which excluded the African from the vote in 1910, but because it is so therefore we must obtain a constitutional change which will give us a voice in determining our affairs. The mistaken notion has been cultivated that our affairs are a distinct compartment unrelated to the affairs of other communities, and yet if we accept the fact that South Africa has many racial groups . who enjoy South African citizenship it will be correct to relate our own fate to the fate of other races in South Africa, and that independence may give us the right to legislate for ourselves alone, but that type of legislation which we think gives us freedom does not necessarily persuade a neighbour state to extend that freedom for the citizens of the other state in its own state. Thus a Zulu independent state may legislate in a manner which is repugnant to our concept of freedom, and our freedom therefore becomes curtailed as soon as we leave the boundaries of our independent state. It is therefore necessary that when we conceive the idea of independence or otherwise, we must take into account other racial groups with which we shall be living in South Africa.

dence, and so neither party can claim the right to speak for all those people who are not politically committed either to the one party or the other. For that reason we have decided to deal with this matter openly and without the discipline of party politics, and it is hoped that with this invitation, which is genuine, members of the governing party will be free to express their views as this is no small matter. The motion as it stands presupposes that the people of the Transkei have said: We want independence; and working from that assumption the Government seeks to go into the motions of realising that objective. Some of us feel, however, that that would be an erroneous assumption and that more than election to the Legislative Assembly is required in order to assess the feelings of the people on this important matter. Were we to operate on the basis of the motion as it stands, then consultation would be excluded . When the Union of South Africa moved into the status of a republic quite a lot of propaganda and agitation and talk surrounded the concept of the Union of South Africa becoming a republic. It is, therefore, my view, and a view shared by others, that a mere majority can never be a basis for bringing about a drastic constitutional change. Consensus rather than majority seems to be the yardstick by which we can measure the feelings of the people in this direction. It would be foolhardy for me to say the people of the Transkei do want independence or do not want independence at this stage, for I have no direct mandate on that issue as I stand here. Having said that, we will now look at some of the points which have been raised under this motion. Whilst it is an accepted fact that the African in South Africa is by comparison better educated than the African in central states of Africa, and whilst our association with the democratic system of government probably stretches far back as compared with the experience of these Central African states, it should be remembered that most educated Africans in South Africa are mute, politically speaking, because our 200- odd graduates are silenced by employment and we are not aware nor have we a means of determining, what their political inclinations are and we do not know to what extent they will lend their weight in making or breaking independence. CHIEF MINISTER: They are much in advance. Mr GUZANA: If it is claimed that they are much advanced politically then we come to know that our civil servants are really political civil servants. CHIEF MINISTER : Not necessarily on this particular matter which is above party politics . Mr GUZANA: We shall now have the opportunity to consult the civil servants and ask them, above party politics, what their idea is on the question of independence.

MR. C. DIKO : Are you thinking about China?

CHIEF MINISTER: I have consulted them.

MR. GUZANA: Our desire for freedom, therefore, does not place limitations upon those who may seek to curtail that freedom in their own areas of influence. Whilst we may gladly and glibly claim that we shall establish connections with other states, be represented at UNO and be able to enter into international arrangements on questions of foreign relations, labour and so on, we must bear in mind that the rest of the world is not oozing with wealth and seeking some place where it can unload that wealth, and therefore when we speak of independence we have got to look over the last ten years and see whether or not we have created a situation which is attractive to an investor who, after all, seeks to draw dividends from his investments. I know

Mr GUZANA: The Transkei has been self-governing for ten years, a period which, historically speaking, is but a day past and none of us can say with any degree of certainty that the responsibilities which have devolved on us have been carried out fully, properly and responsibility. We are not aware of any state which was under another state which has come to the maturity of independence inside so short a period as ten years, and one wonders whether or not our enthusiasm for constitutional change is overstepping the prudence of hurrying slowly. Intrepid and hasty constitutional changes have a way of shattering peace and order in a country and one cannot say one has not seen what has happened in Central African states where constitutional development has been characterized by unstable governments

that the Republican Government will graciously carry

73

CHIEF MINISTER: We will make treaties.

its baby on it's shoulders, but when the baby remains ricketty whilst its legs grow to drag on the ground, the mother country must say: Thus far and no further. One would have to consider whether a constitutional development which is going to make us independent is opportune when we are still so wholly dependent upon another country. The speech from the throne indicated that dependence upon South Africa must be regarded as a diminishing and withering plant, and one sometimes wonders whether or not we should remain sucking from the udder of the Republican Government or have the milk delivered by bottle to us. If I am correct, the Government gets revenue from the Transkei to the tune of a little over R11 million (I am subject to correction) and about 70 to 80% of our budget comes from the Republic. CHIEF MINISTER : That is our indirect taxation. MR. GUZANA: If indeed that amount of subsidy comes from excise duties, indirect taxation and other sources, one wonders whether or not we have any substantial basis to say we are given so much because we have paid into the Republican Government coffers an equal amount. Even that amount, assuming that it was direct and indirect tax paid by us, is inadequate to give us the sinews and muscles for industrial development of our own. This is the type of risk that the people of the Transkei must themselves take and it is why we seek to have them brought into the picture by having them have their say on the question of independence. The acquistion of independence has a degree of finality about it which can only be destroyed by conquest, and if an independent state seeks to cast covetous eyes on the land of another state a state of war emerges. My mind boggles at the idea of claiming rights to land which is not within the boundries of the Transkei on the assumption that these shall be given even when the Transkei has obtained independence within the present boundries. Hitler's thoughts in this direction plunged Europe into war. To speak of rights to land which we ourselves do not incorporate as we seek independence is probably to misrepresent the whole issue. I have always wondered whether or not a constitutional change in the government of any country will automatically bring about the freedom of the individual in that country. If different racial groups agree to hate one another, they will do so whether they are members of one country or members of different countries which are independent, therefore constitutional changes are not the panacea nor the solution of estranged race relationships. Indeed, Balkanization on an ethnic basis may tend to polarize sentiments and concentrate antagonisms. It has been suggested that we will be free from pass laws, we shall not have to carry reference books, we shall do as we please. We shall be able to go wherever we please and whenever we please. Whilst this may sound pleasant, the realities of the situation seem to negate this conception as, for instance, is indicated or seen in the position of Lesotho in relation to the Republic, as Lesotho with its freedom for its inhabitants may find itself insulated by a hostile attitude from the Republican Government. I endorse the sentiments of the hon. the Chief Minister to the effect that we would stand side by side with independent Zululand , independent Basotho Kwakwa, independent Whitestan, independent Colouredstan in the face of aggression from beyond our borders, but we must remember that a government of an independent state can declare its own policy in connexion with a state of war affecting another state and therefore our independence does not guarantee us as allies of any other country.

MR. GUZANA: The hon. the Chief Minister says we will make treaties with those states, but an independent state does not divorce itself of the right to resile out of such treaty if the Government in power at the time so determines. For my own part it would give me joy to see the hon. the Chief Minister marching ahead to fight the terrorists along the northern borders of South Africa ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Followed by you. MR. GUZANA: • whilst I remained behind to give him moral courage over the air. (Laughter) I have never known that up to now, over these ten years, Pretoria has been directing us in matters that fall within our legislative powers. CHIEF MINISTER: That fall without our legislative powers. MR. GUZANA: The point has been made that we shall deal with our affairs without being told by Pretoria what to do. If we have been told all these past ten years what to do in respect of matters over which we have legislative powers, what constitutional exercise have we had on our own? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Over which we have no jurisdiction. MR. GUZANA: That is not put in there. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is what is understood. MR. GUZANA : We cannot resile from the consequences of an inept Government seeking to impose independence upon the people of the Transkei . CHIEF MINISTER: Are you opposed to it ? What is your attitude?

MR. GUZANA : My attitude has been spelt out very clearly in my amendment. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But not spelt out in your discussion. In your discussion you are against independence. ( Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA: I have said that if the people of the Transkei want independence I shall not stand in the way. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You would never, of course. It is physically impossible. MR. GUZANA: If they do not want independence I shall not stand in their way. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is your attitude to independence. MR. GUZANA: My attitude will be determined by the reaction of the people of the Transkei, because I am part and parcel of that citizenry. CHIEF MINISTER : What about your multi-racialism ? MR. GUZANA: The hon. the Chief Minister raises the question of multi-racialism. Whilst I feel that that discussion is irrelevant to the question of independence, let me make this important observation - that the significant vacum in the statement of the hon. the Chief Minister relates to the policy of the Transkei after independence. If the country is invited into independence it is entitled to know what the policy of that independent state will be and to know that now, at the beginning. Probably this subject is a hot political potato for the hon. the Chief Minister, who is still begging for some constitutional change from the Republican Government.

74

he would be on our side. I would implore hon. members of the Government side that he be elected President so that he can enjoy the hospitality of your country with his wife. (Laughter) Our age is advanced because we are from the days of the Bunga, through the days of the TTA, and now we have come to this present stage of self-government. This points to the inevitable conclusion that we shall behave ourselves in as good a manner as we have always done. Again, Mr. Chairman, we have experienced 300 years of life with the white people. When they arrived, the Transkei was not constituted as it is now, then certain pieces of land were excised from the territory. That is very bad from the Government's point of view. Our land also included the area of Mount Currie, Port St. John's, Elliott and Maclear. When we claim these lands I cannot see the reason why these lands should not be returned to us, because they originally belonged to us. That is very unpalatable and it is not conducive to good relations. We are friends, all of us, of the Republican Government. Why must the Government take away these lands from us? We have always been very co-operative with the Republican Government, assisting them in everything they did. If the Government does give us these isolated pieces of land it is a mere drop in the ocean and the Republic will not be the worse off for that. What I mean is that if the Government does not give us this land we shall never stop asking. Even the coming generations will continue to clamour for their return. We do not want the sort of situation which is now taking place in Ireland. We know our boundaries, as I have explained . If there is land which is required outside our own boundaries in other homelands, the Chief Minister of that homeland will pilot that particular issue right through the different homelands . I do not advocate that we should not get our land. We want that land. Independence is a good thing and we shall go to the people and tell them about this and they will not refuse. We have long been in the struggle for this land. Independence will be to our advantage. We are Transkeians but if anything happens to the white South African Government we shall assist them. If an enemy invades them it will be necessary for us to assist, because we have been given this beautiful Transkei . I have every hope that even the lands which have not been included in the Transkei will be finally included. The world is in a turmoil and therefore the Transkei and the Republican Government must work hand in glove. You see the road that is being built between Zambia and Tanzania, from Zambia to Angola and from Angola to South-West Africa. When it reaches that point it is directly coming to us and that is why we must always be co-operative with one another, so that we are always united, white and black. We do not want those nations to come here. Those people are influenced by communistic ideologies introduced by the Chinese. The very men who are constructing those roads are communists who are also soldiers. When we get this independence let us not have any complaints against the Government, such as in connexion with the pieces of land we want. We are now on a sound footing and when we get our indepence we will have our youths who have been lost to us because they have not been satisfied with the present status quo. They will now rejoin us and assist us. They have learned quite a lot overseas and they must now come back and we shall apportion them their proper positions in society. They must come back and we shall apportion them their proper positions in society. They must come back to us. That is what we want. We want this thing now, within the next five years. You are friends of the

CHIEF MINISTER: I told you in my speech . I said the Transkei will have no discrimination.

MR. GUZANA: Probably because of some agreements with Mr. Vorster in regard to land and labour matters his view are closed in now. We have been accused of being hypnotized by the United Party. Methinks the hypnotism is where this accusation comes from and that therefore people have reached a stage of mental inanity because of the hypnotic effect of the Republican Government over their thinking. CHIEF MINISTER: Even on independence ? MR. GUZANA: I am asked "Even on independence", but the Prime Minister of South Africa has already said if you want independence he will give it to you, he is ready. CHIEF MINISTER: Is there anything wrong with that? MR. GUZANA: I am reminded of the young boy who seeks to catch a hen. He drops grain after grain leading into the fowlrun until the poor fowl is inside the fowlrun. (Laughter) So even on independence you have had to be told about it and you have been promised independence. CHIEF MINISTER: You took logic as one of your courses in your degree. MR. GUZANA: No I did not. But having been promised that I say: Take it to your people. CHIEF MINISTER : Thank you for the advice. MR. GUZANA : I do hope that each member of this House will be free to express his views freely, for no-one need be deceived on this issue . . . MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Our members always express their views freely, but you tell your followers what to say. and no-one will feel himself MR. GUZANA: · bound to toe the party line by the tiger-eye that is cast in their direction by the hon. the Chief Minister. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yours would not toe the line. MR. GUZANA: This matter is important, is national and has international repercussions. Don't allow the Transkei to be used as a bait to give credibility to the policy of separate development, but if the people by referendum want independence, for God's sake let them have it.

MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: They want it. MR. GUZANA: Let us not abrogate to ourselves the right to decide these things for the people who are going to live with independence. Democratic governments can be despotic, and therefore let not this pretence at representation in this House fool you into thinking that you can speak fully and completely and knowledgeably about the attitude of the man in the street on the question of independence; and we do not want to move back to the time when the Whites were not in South Africa and start there. We are in the year 1974 and let our chiefs be relevant to the situation and seek to have their own people express their minds freely on the question of independence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. N. JAFTA: I second the amendment. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion by the hon. the Chief Minister and I support each and every point which he raised in connexion with this matter. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is really marking time in connexion with this matter. I thought 75

Chief Minister said I am endorsing. You are very few on that side and we cannot rely on you. You are an old man. Why stay on that side of the House? You must join us and we can speak with one voice. You go that way and want to delay the progress of this whole matter. The people definitely agree. Now you are employing delaying tactics. With those few words I support all the hon. the Chief Minister has outlined. Even the land promised to us in 1936 must be handed over expeditiously. I am very thankful that in the recess committee which will be constituted there will be mem-

United Party and you wanted to go to parliament in Cape Town, but that was refused. Formerly you sent Senator Campbell and others like Mr. Hughes. Mr. Campbell was our member and he never brought us anything whatsoever. MR. GUZANA: Where did you get your farm? PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: I got it during the reign of the Nationalist Government. Previously I asked the white Government for a farm and I never got it. That was the white Government which was constituted mainly by the English. For fifteen years I asked, and then this present Government came into power and gave me my farm. This present white Government is truthful. The only time they can break faith is when they will not give us the land we are claiming. We still have confidence in this Government and they must let us have these lands. In his speech the hon. the Chief Minister mentioned that we shall discuss amalgamation with the Ciskei and I welcome that suggestion. That would be a very wise step. We are all Xhosa-speaking and we ought to come together and have one Chief Minister. If we could come together it would be a step forward. I think even the hon. members across the floor will view this favourably and I think they would like that step to be achieved. If we attain independence we would like to travel wherever we wish to, and if we comply with passport laws there should be nothing to debar us. If we are independent the institution of chieftainship will not be done away with. You must be easy in your minds, all you chiefs who are here, because this will not affect you. You will also consult with the people in your areas. I am quite positive that the Republican Government will not desert us because we are the heirs. For instance, the Government is feeding Lesotho and they will feed use more because we are the elder sons. Don't think that we shall be thrown away. Matters will stand as they should, as they have been standing. I mean to say that you must disabuse your minds of the idea of always being under the rule of someone. When you are told to rule yourselves you must accept it. When we have a defence force and our African sons are flying in the air, that will be something to see. During the war when it is necessary to drop bombs and to have submarines at sea and soldiers marching on the land, I have a picture in my mind of that being performed by a black man who at present is debarred from such duties. Today a black person applies for a licence to possess a firearm and it is refused, and perhaps he only gets it when he is very much advanced in age. What I mean is that we shall be having our freedom and our black soldiers . That is a fine thing. Why should you refuse it? You have not got these firearms now your stock is decreasing . No, that is not good. You are fighting with rusty assegais which are very weak. It is very fine, hon. members, that we must be independent . I very much welcome the advent of independence . I will not be very lengthy, Mr. Chairman . We shall have everything when we have attained independence . We shall have our own black judge who shall decide any case brought before him . The one who is occupying the seat will vacate it willingly and we shall then have our own judges . I have in mind such a man as Mr. Guzana who could be appointed a Transkeian judge, but he must stop opposing us and painting gruesome pictures . (Laughter) As I have said, we have long been in this struggle , right from the days of the TTA. I decided to stand up as one of the experienced members . When there is a difficult matter in the House I am always requested to stand up. I have shown you now and you must follow the course I have outlined for you. What the hon. the

bers of the Opposition, so that you will not be able to point a finger at us if something goes wrong. (Laughter) If anything unpleasant does occur we shall have the Republican Government beside us, and also we shall know by what means we shall assist the Government. The African people have certain secret things, but these are not brought to the public knowledge. (Laughter) If the African people want to get a state of emergency, please don't conceal these secret weapons. Come out into the open. Do what the Ethiopians did under Haile Selassie. The Italians were attacked by swarms of bees released by the Ethiopians. (Laughter) What I mean is that the Africans have certain secret weapons. Imagine swarms of bees deterring advance of troops for a number of days - not days, but months. Don't think I am speaking idly when I say we have certain secret devices of warfare. We can help the Government when it is in difficulties in certain respects. With those few words I support what has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister. It is a fine motion which leads us to independence and it will be a fine thing to see the Trainskei independent. Our fine country will have a president, a prime minister and so forth, and others who will occupy important posts. That is a step which is desirable where a black man stand on his own. I am not pleased with what happened in places like Ghana. Our Government shall stand. I have that hope. It is a long time that we have been together. With those few words, please withdraw your motion and support ours. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak on this most important motion which has been placed before this House in connection with independence. CHIEF MINISTER: Do you support it? MR. JAFTA: We have moved an amendment to this motion which states it is a very valuable and important move, but it must first be submitted to the voters. This is a very important issue. You must remember we have been placed here by the citizens of the Transkei and we must obtain a mandate from those people as to whether they accept independence or not. It helps no-one to bring in an opinion of one or two of your friends and then state it is the opinion of the electorate . (Interjections) The requirement in this connexion is that the matter must be placed before the electorate and a satisfactory explanation given to them. We have been told that this matter should be treated above party politics and we have accepted that because that will permit any members of this House to give his own views without fear. CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want independence? Answer, please. MR. JAFTA: The crux of the matter is that this motion should first of all have been brought to the notice of the electorate before being placed before this House. When you remember that all these people who are in this House have been elected by the people it should be borne in mind that some of those people who form the electorate have a higher intellect than

76

mother has a baby on her back and the legs of the baby are hanging down,, it is the mother's duty to take the child down and direct its steps. That clearly indicates that you are of the opinion that we are ready for independence. The Transkei has been praised for its self-government. Why should there be any fear that we should accept independence and have our own selfrule? Are we going to drag our feet while being carried on the back of the Republican Government? It has been fully explained that we are not going to do away with the Republican Government. The ' Republican Government will continue giving us monetary assistance. How can we, having made such progress educationally and as far as self-rule is concerned, let ourselves be led by those other Governments ? What has been said is that we should consult the people. That is something that should not even be heard of by the people at large . No-one is ignorant of the fact that at the inception of this Assembly there was a recess committee whose duty it was to go to the electorate. Who is going to go right down to the people of the Transkei in order to collect them and bring them to discuss order to in convenient some spot this matter? Are you the person to do so? This is a matter which has to be considered by a select committee composed of 27 members, but after its discussions it is the duty of the select committee to make this matter known to the public. What do you think the world is going to say about you when you carry on talking about this? Hon. member, I would not have replied to your nonsense, but how else can we resolve this matter without the select committee making its own findings before referring the matter to the electorate? Much has been said in connection with this matter and I feel we should come to a mutual agreement. Even the amendment which has been moved by your leader is closely allied to the original motion. You will also take part in the select committee. In fact, what is the difficulty in connection with this matter? The members of your party who are elected to this select committee will voice their opinions and all matters requiring consideration will be listened to in the committee. I believe the next speaker will agree with my idea. I am an experienced politician. The land matter has been raised in this House but I have an eye on a particular land known as Harding. That land belongs to the Transkei. The boundry is Umzimkulu. That land belongs to Faku and his followers. That land must not be forgotten when something is being said about land claims. You know the land I am talking about. You are an attorney and you have been there. On this question of land mention has been made of all the other lands which are being claimed, but it would appear that this land in the Harding district has

some of the members of this House. There are many teachers, doctors, lawyers and the like who should be consulted in connexion with this matter. CHIEF MINISTER: That will be done. We will do that. Sit down. MR. JAFTA: I hear the hon. Chief Minister saying that that will be done, but what I maintain is that the people should have been consulted first. What we are going to bring to the notice of the electorate is that there is this opinion and find out if the electorate is in agreement. CHIEF MINISTER: That is exactly what we are going to do. MR. JAFTA: When we have found out if the House is in agreement then a referendum will be held. Again, it should be made clear that this matter should be conducted outside party politics . We have our own opinion, but we should not tie down the electorate in something they know nothing about. I do not want to talk about our own opinion in regard to independence. It is for the people to decide. It has also been mentioned that other black races have already acquired independence and, further, that we are proud of the fact that we have more education and culture than those other black nations. We may be big people with our B.A. and B.Sc. degrees and so on, but what is of more value is that the people should have knowledge of matters governing their state. What has been oppressing the black people is the job reservation law and other such laws. About thirty years ago when I was up-country I found people being trained as train-drivers, post office officials, etc., and all the work pertaining to those sections was performed by the black people because there was no such thing as job reservation then. People thereby gained knowledge and experience, because people can only gain experience by actually performing such duties. The pride of our country was in the knowledge of English, mathematics and such subjects, and on the other hand those other people only knew their own language and the practical work which they performed. At this stage it is not right that we should enter into the question about the correctness or otherwise of what has been moved in this House. What is important is that the matter should be taken to the electorate. This recess committee should only be appointed when a mandate has been received from the people. That is what I intended to mention about this motion, and I do not wish to be lengthy. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am very much grieved to have to speak after this old member of the House who has only succeeded in talking rubbish. When the hon. the Chief Minister moved this motion all the people were silent. It was evident that all the people were accepting this motion. I even thought I should take notes, but the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has supported the Chief Minister. He had a very weak amendment, so much so that it is clear even to one who knows little that his whole purpose was to support the hon. the Chief Minister's motion. His own supporters were sleeping and I think he was only speaking because he is an attorney. We have been in this Government for a long time and he was still asleep during those days. We attended the general meetings and I used to occupy that corner seat and I was referred to as the Lion of the North. (Laughter) I have been brought here today to explain to you that you should come along with us. We have left the stage where we were regarded as babies learning to crawl, and we are now in this House as grown-up people. You yourself have said that if a

been forgotten . Mr GUZANA: Don't you want Port Shepstone too? CHIEF JOZANA : Thank you, yes. Even Port Shepstone should be included because it belongs to the Transkei. My request is that the hon, the Leader of the Opposition should withdraw his amendment and support the original motion as it stands. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment because we represent the people here. There are some incidents which have taken place in the past and we are beginning to feel it would not be proper to neglect some of these things whilst we are in this House. A small committee of men during the Nongquase period agreed together and all they did was to bring tribulation to the nation. It is, therefore necessary for us to be 77

TABLING OF REPORTS

very careful and find out if we are not leading the nation astray if we in this House concur with the motion . We have heard that little story of the meerkat which convened a meeting after it lost its tail. At that meeting the other meerkats discovered they would be doing wrong if they agreed to his proposal. An old meerkat wanted to know if this meerkat had a tail of his own because he proposed they should all have their tails cut. We feel we must be free to go and report to the people because there is something which places the people in difficulty. We now have this reference book, whereas before we had our ordinary passes. At one time in Johannesburg an African man was arrested and asked why he was out after 9 o'clock. His reply was that he was free because he had his reference book which bears his photograph and therefore he was free. He was told that this document does not allow him to travel freely and that he had been led astray by being told he could travel after 9 o'clock. Now, we must be very careful because we do not want to betray the trust of the people. The majority of the people are not here who have been led astray by organizations which are not in line with Government policy. Some of those people got into trouble and are now on Robben Island. Those people believe that their efforts were directed to relieving the difficulties of the black man. Why do we now believe that we must obstruct the views of these people who genuinely believe they were fighting for the freedom of the black man ? That is why I feel we must go to the people, because we might be doing a wrong thing. We have no date of arrival in South Africa and there are several other nations who arrived after us and we know the date of their arrival For instance, Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652. Others went to Natal but the idea was to get this country. The whole continent from the Cape to Cairo belongs to the black man. The whole of Africa is ours. I was born here and I shall die here. We have nowhere to go and therefore we cannot demarcate this country unless it is the wish of the people. During the First World War we attested because the Transkei was part of South Africa. We fought very hard and the blood of the people flowed into the ground. In the Second World War we fought as well. Now we have this land, the Transkei. Are we going to concur that we must snatch independence without consulting the people? Will we not be oppressing our people if we force independence upon them? It would be much better if we were able to move about freely before we acquire independence, so that we would be free to go anywhere we like without carrying this passbook. The day Malawi gained independence I noticed that it was very painful when the Nyassas had to go back. They used to ask for an extension of time because they had to sell their properties, but the Government of Malawi was urging the people to go as quickly as possible because they were now independent. That is why we ask this House to consult with the people, because some of our people have properties in Pretoria and Johannesburg and we will betray them if we get independence without consulting them. Independence is no small matter. Independence means that you will be completely independent and must, therefore, have everything you require. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 26th March 1974. TUESDAY, 26th MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963, I as Chief Minister and Minister of Finance lay upon the table the Annual Report of the Transkeian Public Service Commission for 1973. NOTICES OF MOTION 28. Mr G. G. Kutu gave notice to move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should communicate with the Republican Government with a view to abolishing capital punishment." 29. Mr G. G. Kutu gave notice to move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should communicate with the Republican Government with a view to abolishing capital punishment." 29. Mr G. G. Kutu gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should request the Department of Agriculture and Forestry to authorise all dipping foremen to issue livestock transfer and introduction permits, which duty has hitherto been done by Agricultural Officers." 30. Mr G. G. Kutu gave notice to move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should see to it that the grazing camps at Emjanyana Institution are divided so that the neighbouring administrative areas are given grazing land for their cattle."

ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING MINISTER ROADS AND WORKS: Mr Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill amending the Transkeian Road Traffic Act 1967. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, Act No. 48 of 1963, I now table a message in terms of rule 128(b) that the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly; Mr. Chairman, I now move that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : I would request the hon. Minister responsible for this bill to provide this House with a copy of the bill so that the Secretary should be able to read it for the first time. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman, the second reading will take place on Thursday, 28th March, or so soon thereafter. REQUEST FOR INDEPENDENCE The debate was resumed. MR. P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was still speaking on this motion when the time expired, and I still wish to continue and explain that we have been sent here to represent the people in a similar way that the dove was sent by Noah. (Laughter) The dove came back with a report and said the water had abated and it brought with it a leaf. It is therefore very clear that we have an obligation to return to the people and tell them where they stand. We do not want to be like the ravens and the hawks. The hawks and ravens feast on dead bodies. We want 78

were never promised that we would have this Transkei. All we knew was that we were going to fight for the whole country of South Africa, and we did fight. It was not the first time but the second time. We patiently waited for this freedom and we knew that one day sooner or later we would receive it. Fortunately, freedom comes like the egg of a fowl and the egg of the fowl comes from Tembuland . (Laughter) It must be realised that the centre of civilization and the centre of our government is here in Tembuland. I want you to realise that the star which appeared had to be centred here. We cannot deceive ourselves about consulting the people for we know that independence means two things either that we prosper or that we fail. Never before has such a big question involving the entire nation been decided without informing the inhabitants. We were told to attest during the last war and at that time this country of ours was never divided. MR. G. MAPASSA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion moved by the hon. the Chief Minister in this House. In view of the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister gave us some time to digest the essence of the motion I did not anticipate that we would be expressing different views in regard to the motion in this House. Some of my hon. friends on the opposite benches are people I have known to have advocated freedom for our people. When we reach the stage where our paramount chiefs follow the sentiments of the people and ask for freedom, who is in a position to stand against their proposals? Who is in a position to contradict the respective chiefs who administer the various districts? The Government side controls almost the entire majority of chiefs in the Transkei. Our land was taken surreptitiously by the white people. When we now ask for independence we buttress the aspirations of our chiefs to have more power to rule the land which was given to them. MR. K. M. GUZANA: By the way, aren't you a paramount chief's representative here? MR. MAPASSA: When the hon. the Chief Minister piloted the motion he made provision for hon. members of this House to approach the electorate because this matter did at one time come before the congress. I heard some of my friends on the Opposition benches posing a question as to what was the purpose of the Chief Minister in moving from one area to another. (If I do not preach, when I do talk I quote from the Scriptures .) The answer is that we are admonished to knock and it shall be opened. MR. H. H. ZIBI: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if we are out of order in this sense that the amendment does not hitherto oppose the principle of independence but rather seeks that people be consulted before independence. The discussion, as I am listening, seems to suggest that perhaps we on this side of the House are opposed to the principle. CHIEF MINISTER : You are opposing it. (Interjections) MR. ZIBI : The moot point is consultation, because the going to the people is not contained in the original motion. MR. MAPASSA: I have heard what the speaker said. When he addressed the House he does not address it in the strain in which he is now addressing it. When we are here we have to be honest. According to the spirit in which he delivered his address he was against the priniciple of this motion. Some people are entertaining fears that the Transkei will be unable to attain complete independence. There are countries which I shall not name which have achieved independence but which are, in some respects, much inferior to the Transkei.

to be like the dove. The dove is very important and during the World War these doves were sent out as messengers. A note used to be attached to its leg and it would then fly away to disseminate the events that were about to occur. Unless we here should confess and claim to be like those ravens which feasted on the dead bodies, we repeat: Let this House go out and consult the people. The Government is like a lazy woman who makes the food and feeds the child without consulting the child. (Laughter) A lazy woman never bothers to find out what the child requires, but just forces it to eat whatever she has in her hands. It has now become wiser not to force people to do anything against their will. The chiefs do not recognize the wishes of the people. They have their own selfish ends, The chiefs are on a high level and the ordinary people on a lower, but the people are advancing. It does then appear that the people must be constantly informed by the chiefs, because this country belongs to the ordinary man. I met a man on my way to this House from Mqanduli and he asked me whether we had agreed to this independence. I told him we had not. He then said: You know very well you have been sent by us. If you do your own thing you will be like the raven. (Laughter) It is a humble request that whatever we do as a Government we should consult the people. When the parliament in Cape Town decided to have that notorious high court of justice the members of parliament first went out and informed the people. Mr. Strauss went to Johannesburg and convened a very large meeting. The people of Johannesburg told Mr. Strauss at that meeting that they had never before seen a high court of parliament. It failed because the people were first consulted and they destroyed the idea. In parliamentary procedure you can never enact a law which is going to invade the rights of the people. Please do understand that this world does not depend on chieftainship. The people surround the chiefs like bees. The bees constantly surround the drones and they never feed before they are allowed to feed by the drones . Although people are allowed to vote, not everyone is told what to vote for. Some people refuse and say they are going to vote according to their own views. We admit and understand clearly that it is necessary to have this independence , but we refuse to accept it in this House before we inform the people. As I have said before, we have noticed that people always do what they are told to do but sometimes they turn around and say they are not going to do that. (Interjections) You should learn to consult the people. Don't force matters. If we find that our wagon has been derailed, who shall we turn to? When something has gone wrong we have to trust the driver. It may happen that the driver also dies as the wagon capsizes We have worked hard for our country and that is how we have obtained this freedom. We have fought two wars before we attained this self-government. Kulile prophesied that this freedom would follow after two wars. He prophesied that after these wars your name would be the topic of discussion among the nations. I knew freedom would come and that is why I attested during the Second World War. When I went to fight, this House was not as it is today. GOVT. MEMBER : Is that when they gave you a bicycle? MR. NKOSIYANE:If I was rewarded by being given a bicycle it does not concern you. (Laughter) When you fight for your country you do not expect a reward. Today we are in this House and you tell us that we must have complete independence. I say we should go and consult the people first. When we went to war we 79

don - all of them do not offer an alternative. They recokon that the status quo must be maintained. I will tell the people of Ngqeleni that the status quo does not suit us. It means penury for us; it means hunger for us; it means rags on our backs. These facts I will place before the people of Ngqeleni on the eve of referendum and I hope the hon. members will do the same for their respective areas. I will tell the people of Ngqeleni that my party stands for a united South Africa. They a South do so now and they have always done so

Before I wind up my speech, Mr. Chairman, if our hon. Chief Minister, Chief Daliwonga Matanzima, puts out this proposal for independence, I as a representative of the Paramount Chief of Gcalekaland support him entirely. Some people have suggested that we must go to the electorate, who have not heard the debates that go on here and who have sent representatives to this House. If an individual has no confidence in himself to represent the sentiments and wishes of his constituents then it is time he withdrew from this House. He has been sent and put in a position of trust to convey back to the electorate matters which have been decided by their representatives in this House. Mr. Chairman, the Israelites one day were in a predicament and they were sent a leader, and that leader led them. There was word given to the effect that the whole lot must look forwards and not backwards. Those who were doubtful, and I would liken them to some of the hon. members on the opposite side, when they looked back and then turned forwards again the waters of the sea closed in and they were swept away. (Laughter) With those words, Mr. Chairman, I must sit down. MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. member for Kentani has also spoken. I stand up to speak in support of the amendment by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I trust hon. members are treating the subject of the independence of the Transkei with the seriousness it deserves, for as a result of our decision today we think that we might be launching the Transkei into economic prosperity. We think that the step we are about to take might lead us to political freedom unknown before, an idea for which we have always striven and sought to attain. To achieve this goal our leaders have tried violence but they have failed. Our leaders have tried subversion — they have failed . Our leaders have tried passive resistance they have failed . Our leaders have tried reason and persuasion — they have failed. Our leaders have tried dialogue, and they have had instruction. Our leaders have tried all manner of devices to attain this political goal and what do they get for it? They languish in gaol on Robben Island. And what is their crime? They have dared to speak for the rights of their people. They are made to suffer just because they want the ordinary day-to-day human rights. They suffer from the negative effects of a legislation not of their own making. The statute books of South Africa are full of enactments specifically to limit and restrict the Native. Parliament never meets in Cape Town without some reference being made to the effective restriction of the Native. These

Africa free from prejudice, a South Africa free from discrimination and recrimination; South Africa, a land of equal opportunity, peace and mutual trust. I will tell the people of Ngqeleni that my party does not look favourably on a dissolution of South Africa. I will tell them that my party believes in a closer attachment of the Transkei to South Africa. I will tell them that any detachment from the Republic is an acknowledgment of failure in human relations. These facts I will place before the voters of Ngqeleni on the eve of referendum and I hope hon. members will do the same for their respective areas. If the people seek my advice I will give it readily. I will tell them that they are being offered independence. Independence is a property for which people fight and die. We have the evidence of history for that. I will tell them that they are being offered land, albeit inadequate. The acquisition of land is so often a bloody undertaking. We have the evidence of history for that. I will tell them that personally I have no funny ideas about independence. I have no picture of a Utopia beyond the declaration of independence. Indeed, it strikes me that it will be a period of but that is hard work G perhaps even of hardship a prospect to which we have to look with courage and with hope. I will tell them that I have the greatest faith in the white people of other lands. I will tell them that I believe they still have the missionary zeal that characterized men like Stewart, Livingstone and Moffat. I believe the Transkei has something to offer them and that they have something to offer to the Transkei. I will tell the people of Ngqeleni that they have been promised representation in the committee. CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member. Hon. members, it would appear that there are people who detest tranqillity in this House people who positively try to cause noise with no ultimate good. I request the hon. members that they be honourable members of this House. Thank you. MR. MADIKIZELA: I will tell the people of Ngqeleni that they have been promised representation in the committee that will go into the terms of separation between the Republic and the Transkei. These facts I will place before the people of Ngqeleni , and many more, on the eve of referendum, and I hope hon. members will do the same for their respective areas. MR. T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we have just listened to a child in a kindergarten school who was taught some nursery -I will tell, I will tell. He has been so trained in memorization that he can hardly think for himself. He forgets that he will go and tell the people of Ngqeleni that he is actually the man who is applying brakes to the wheel. The wagon of liberation is on the march and he forgets to say he is applying the brakes on these wheels, on this wagon that is marching towards liberty. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Can a wagon march? MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I stand up to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister who has moved such an important motion in this House. I do so in the place of the hon. the Minister of Health who, unfortunately because of other commit-

facts I will place before the voters of Ngqeleni on the eve of referendum and I hope hon. members will do the same for their respective areas. CHIEF MINISTER : When will be the referendum? MR. MADIKIZELA: When it pleases the hon. the Chief Minister. I will mention to the voters of Ngqeleni that the white people of South Africa have reserved jobs for themselves, that they have guaranteed a position of privilege for themselves. I will tell them that their aim is white security first, white security foremost. I will tell them that they are regularly discriminated against I will tell them that the Whites of Port St. John's showed us the remarkable nature of their characters. They all of them rejected the idea of Port St. John's forming part of the Transkei. I will tell them that the white people of Victoria East disappointed us. They all of them voted unanimously against Victoria East forming part of the Ciskei. I will tell them that the Whites of East London live in daily fear of being amalgamated in a combined Transkei/Ciskei. All these sets of Whites ― Port St. John's, Victoria East, East Lon80

further. Is it not true that with independence our leaders will gain a wealth of knowledge by being in contact with other leaders on an international basis? As it is now, we are just like baboons in a cage and any person or persons from the outside world come to see whether indeed these baboons have been given a measure of self-government. It has been made clear by the hon. the Chief Minister that we are a subject natinon and it is a fact that we never had a say in legislation like the 1936 Land Act. My submission, Sir, with respect, is that if the Republican Government will fail to see reason and see light as we see it, when we are independent our men can go to UNO and voice the opinion of the Transkei. If the question of these districts which we claim belong to the Transkei is not listened to by the Republican Government, when we are independent naturally UNO will give heed to what we ask. Another political upstart on that side says : What about South-West Africa? How often has the hon. the Chief Minister come with a map of 1883/84 showing where the real boundaries of the Transkei are, when these districts of Maclear, Elliot, etc., were part of the Transkei . And if, Mr. Chairman, if we are an independent Transkei and we go to UNO with the other members of UNO listening to our case, naturally we will get these lands faster than they think. Sometimes I feel inclined to say these are dunderheads. We have long been trying to hammer sense into their empty skulls, but . . ... Mr G. C. KUTU: Mr Chairman, I feel that as it has been announced in this House that we must not be crude in discussing these motions, we should adhere to them and that side must not swear at us. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman, I am sick and tired of these people who come to this House and say they represent the interests of the Transkei. We have now come to a stage where indeed the people who have elected us by a most overwhelming majority should listen to our advice and guidance. Whom do they represent in this House? I feel inclined to support the remarks of the Hon. Member for Tabankulu who keeps on saying: Abolish this Democratic Party. In fact, when we are on this phase of our political development and constitutional development, these ten idiots must walk out of this House. (Laughter) . CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, will you please withdraw that.

ments in the Health Department, has not been able to come. I listened with great interest to the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. In fact, he has evaded the issue because for the last ten years he has been on a platform of trying to declare the Transkei a fifth province of the Union of South Africa and, because this side of the House has most vehemently rejected the idea of an additional province, today he comes with an amendment which does appear as if he is in favour of independence. He only hides himself under a branch of "We shall consult the people first". What strikes me as being true is the fact that nowhere in the world will you find people being unanimous on all matters, more especially when vital matters like this are at stake. To quote but one example, despite the fact that there was dissatisfaction from many quarters about the way affairs were handled whilst the now independent Lesotho was under British rule, you still found people debating very strongly against Lesotho getting its independence. In fact, it was not surprising to me when we found the hon. the Leader of the Opposition coming out to oppose this motion. Is it not a fact that the people of Malawi, Botswana, Swaziland, Lesotho and those of other black states started being recognised as human beings and enjoying freedom only after they got their independence? Is it not a fact that even under self-government we, right here in our capital of Umtata, are expected when entering certain premises to use doors marked for Africans only? To quote one instance, here at the post office in York Road you find the Whites have separate facilities. How often has the hon. the Leader of the Opposition criticized us for having accepted a constitution which does not give people equal opportunities? Is it now not the correct time when he should say: Hurrah, we are going to be on equal terms with these Whites? I have followed his speeches in this Legislative Assembly and he has been pro the United Party. All right, I will now quote clause 4 from the United Party election and voting programme. This is what his boss, Sir de Villiers Graaff, has put before the United Party supporters, including him. "There will be eight fully independent and sovereign black states within our borders. These black states will have the right to form alliances and power blocks with each other or with foreign countries in Africa or elsewhere.” If, then, the United Party also accepts this platform we have these very few ten people who are applying brakes to the wheels of independence . Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is suggested that ten years is too short a time for us to be asking for independence. Has there ever been a time limit for people asking for independence? For how long have we been strangled ? The time has come now and if we delay we shall never get this opportunity. Is it not true that the Transkei has for the last ten years been exemplary in controlling its own affairs peacefully and responsibly? These are statements which have come from the throne. It had to be so, because from the days of the Bunga right up to the TTA period and up to the present stage the Transkei was experiencing constitutional development . I submit, therefore, Mr. Chairman, that we have had up to now a period of more than ten years of going through the mill. We are quite aware, Sir, that even after independence we shall for some time need assistance in some matters and we are convinced that the Republic of South Africa will not close its doors to us. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I want to go

Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: In respect to your ruling, I withdraw the word "idiots". This whole motion has been so magnificently piloted by the mover that it is only a man short of sanity who cannot appreciate what has been said. I will go and tell the people of Ngqeleni that their representative in this House is against independence. I will tour the whole Transkei and expose the bankruptcy, the political bankruptcy, of these people who are putting poles in between the spokes of the wheel. Some of us have really suffered in the past because we wanted independence, and it has been stated by the Hon. the Chief Minister that those organisations were outside the Constitution, and today we have had a leader in the Transkei who has come about with this platform whereby we can now say we want independence; we want liberty; we want equality. Mr Chairman, I am not ashamed to admit that I was once in Congress and right in the leadership too, but I admit, as has been said by the Hon, the Chief Minister that we were fighting for our liberty at the time outside the Constitution. Now we have a platform whereby we can air our views, and those people in Pretoria who want to keep us in a position of servitude will listen one day. 81

I would excuse some of the members opposite because we have only known them since the 1963 Constitution came into being. Some of them came here starved and anaemic and today they are fully fed. Instead of following the sound leadership of the Hon. the Chief Minister and his party they keep on throwing stones at him -· people who came into this House on a wrong ticket of multi-racialism when it is separate development. Some of their ideologies are more communistically inclined than Africanized. We want here a united Transkeian nation for the liberty of all Transkeians. For how long will our people be hewers of wood and drawers of water? Listen to them - people who do not know what path has been travelled by people who have really suffered. So much has been said, Mr Chairman by the Hon. the Chief Minister that there is no need for me to belabour these points any more. I wish to appeal to the members of the Opposition.

it has to be taken with the deepest consideration. If one remembers in 1960 when the Republic had to come into existence, a referendum was held in 1960. That was for the purpose of airing the views of the people and sounding public opinion. We, as mere politicians, are servants of the electorate. The voters are our masters, so it is befitting in fact, it must not emanate from a political party conference, but the view of the people as a whole must first be sounded before a step of this nature can be taken. I will have to base my speech on this motion by way of a series of questions to the hon. the Chief Minister on the motion. For example, first and foremost, because now we are in the eleventh year of self-government and now we are heading for independence, as I suppose the motion presupposes, what degree of preparedness have we thus far reached in order to take over the variouus Transkei departments?

Mr G. G. KUTU: There is no opposition. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: You keep on saying there is no opposition and yet your contributions in this discussion show that you are opposed. He says I am a stupid ass. He is using delaying tactics, man. The people of the Transkei want independence and the hon. the Chief Minister and the Government party are prepared to go to the people and explain what is going to happen. What we expect from you people on the other side is co-operation as far as this matter of national importance is concerned. I would be happy if indeed, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition suggested, this matter would be taken above party politics, but from the very word go it went down into party politics. If indeed he had not taken it to that stinking level of party politics, why did he come up with an amendment? Why must there be an amendment when he is convinced that this is the correct direction? How many times have some of you said: Tshunungwa, we must ask for independence but you must do it for us. (Interjections) The Transkei people have no confidence in you and today you have completely destroyed your image Mr Chairman, I wish to appeal to those hon. members not to be pessimistic. They must entertain no fears. They must join hands with us as far as this question of independence is concerned. The hon. the Chief Minister has extended a friendly hand to you. He has actually said we shall include you when a recess committee is being appointed. Where have you ever heard of such humanitarianism? Here is the hon. the Chief Minister on the path of taking the Transkei from this present phase to the ultimate phase of independence. He will ...

CHIEF MINISTER: Are you opposing the motion now? Mr R. MADIKIZELA: No, he is not opposing it. Mr MGUDLWA: I am referring to those which are fully manned by either Transkeian or Republican citizens - but who are the secretaries serving on the various boards and committees, including the Tender Board itself? Hon. members, we do not have to be like mules - that is, to be led with blinkers on our eyes. We have eyes to see, and in fact we have got to think independently because education fails a man if it cannot make him think. The hon. the Chief Minister in his preamble to this motion spoke about the South African history that testifies in the various aspects and facets of this motion. Who are the authors of the South African history textbooks? In fact, most of them abound in distortions. For example, there was mention of a map by the last speaker. That map was produced and in fact I was present when it was produced in this House. Who drew that map, for whom, when and for what purpose? (Laughter) The very first sentence is that during the 1972 session of this House the hon. the Chief Minister moved that the Republican Government should grant the Transkeian Territories full independence. Now, this is my question to the hon. the Chief Minister: Were the results of such motion ever tabled to this House, and if so can he apprise me of such? In fact, those districts that have been claimed have never been handed to us. We know about the dialogue that has taken place between the Chief Minister and the Prime Minister of the Republic • CHIEF MINISTER : Are you opposing the motion? • but with no results tabled Mr MGUDLWA: · before this House again. I wish the hon. the Chief Minister would have asked me to accompany him to Pretoria and then I would have come with something tangible, in fact. (Laughter) Now here is another point that I want to know from the hon. the Chief Minister, because the motion as it reads speaks about certain officials to serve in an advisory capacity. Why should we always want to be helped other than that we help ourselves? You want to be independent, but you want to depend on somebody. Are those two things not mutually exclusive to one another? Now there is another matter, and that is the constitutional aspects. They cited the name of Mr J. H. T. Mills and it was stated that he would be from the Republican Government. Why can't the hon. the Chief Minister specifically state that it will be free - that experts from England, America, all over ... GOVT. MEMBER: China. 7 Mr MGUDLWA: You can say China if you like -

CHAIRMAN: Next speaker, please. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Let me wind up by saying that this question must be concluded now. Once and for all, we want independence. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment to this motion by the hon. the Chief Minister. In fact, it grieves me that I have to speak after such a seasoned purveyor of terminological inexactitudes as has just spoken. (Laughter) It is the fervent hope, I suppose, of the hon. the Chief Minister in his address to this I House yesterday when he was moving his motion quote him: "I hope this House will deal with this matter on a national basis and take it above party politics" ― and this side of the House has given the green light by indicating that we also would have this matter taken above party politics. The question of taking a step like independence is such a big step that 82

of self-determination, which means that once literacy and maturity have been attained each country can achieve independence through the exercise of that right. The choice always lies with that particular group of people. The choice could be either limited sovereignty, which we do not want, independence or federated links . With such a background, Mr Chairman, I feel that the motion as placed by the hon. the Chief Minister touches on all those aspects and that we are aiming to choose, as our right, independence. Many a speaker has voiced in this House that the black man has been under the domination of the white for over 300 years. I think that it was perhaps with the intention of removing such shackles that members of this House in the early 1960s (some of them are still present) accepted a motion moved by the then Councillor Maninjwa proposing self-government for the Transkei. Self-government once accepted meant the formation of a legislative assembly. As you will recall, hon. members, at that stage, though the Transkeians had experienced a form of running their own affairs through the Bunga and the Territorial Authority, they still needed to be helped in running the departments. This, then, led to the secondment of the Republican officers to provide the necessary tutelage. It would then be wrong, Mr Chairman, to say that we only have ten years' experience in the running of our own affairs. In my opinion our experience starts right from the days of the Bunga to date, the only difference being that within the last ten years there has been an acceleration of doing things, marked by an overall sense of responsibility. It would be wrong if we were to sit back and wait for somebody elso to say: You are now ripe for independence. I somehow think that we are literally mature and we are ready for independence. I am sorry if there are some members who want somebody to shake them up and say: My boy, I think you are ready for independence. It does not mean that we shall not have teething troubles, nor does independence necessarily mean that we are self-sufficient. Mr Chairman, we live in an era of great scientific, industrial and social development. I feel that a state which waits patiently for administration by a dominant state will never land anywhere. Such people will never catch up with the times. There have been warnings that perhaps should we be independent we are going to be faced with hardships. Better face hardships which are for your own independent people than hardships pressed upon you by a dominant white man. In most cases independence brings about with it a sense of patriotism. With patriotism will always follow a tendency whereby each man will exert himself more than ever before to put his nation on the map of developed countries. I would like to correct this fallacy that independence means self-sufficiency. Being independent does not mean that we shall not need help from outside the Transkei. As was said by the hon. the Chief Minister, we shall be free to make contractual agreements with any friendly country or state. If you had studied the question of foreign aid, if a country does not have independence there will always be constant interference, for the dominant one at the head will always prefer to lay down the rules . By being independent we want to be free from a dictation of terms by a dominant higher authority. We shall thus be in a position to state our own case and to lay down our own rules, free from any control from someone above. Time and time again in this House various members have brought up complaints in connexion with the police, in connexion with migratory labour. Time and time again in answer to such complaints we have always been ready to pass

you can even say SASO. (Laughter) There are constitutional experts in universities like Stellenbosch , Potchefstroom , Pretoria, Western Cape, Fort Hare ― why specifically from the Republican Government ? Why particularize this official who was here as an official of this Government ? Again, what of the position that at this stage in fact, the last speaker was complaining about the amenities at the post office and that there are separate amenities . Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: During this period. Mr MGUDLWA: Whose baby is that ? In fact, I think I place it at your very doorstep, Mr Last Speaker. Again, why should we people here in this House talk about representation in that select committee of 26 members, but there is a vague statutory provision that the whole of the Transkei will be represented ? But if there are 26 districts in the Transkei it could be represented in full with a member from each district. This I feel is wrong partisanship -- that is, party politics in that this very motion emanates from a party political conference. With those few words, Mr Chairman, I support the amendment. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION

REQUEST FOR INDEPENDENCE The debate was resumed. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak in support of the motion by the hon. the Chief Minister. Before airing my views I first of all want to make a comment on what was said by the hon. member for Ngqeleni. I listened with interest when the hon. member was quoting some indignities which from time immemorial have been suffered by the black man under white domination. He even went on to say that the statute book in Cape Town is full of enactments which restrict, according to him, the "Native". He quoted among other things such things as job reservation, position of privilege, the slogan "White Security First". I think even a man like himself can understand that by our motion we seek to rid ourselves of such malpractices and indignities. I doubt if the electorate of Ngqeleni, after being so informed by the hon. member, would stand for what he calls "a united South Africa" Mr R. MADIKIZELA : The choice is theirs. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : ... a white South African with a forever dominant minority. I would not like to be left, or the hon. members to be left, with the impression that the electorate of Ngqeleni is composed of retarded people. When dealing with this question of independence I would first of all like to share with you some of the views which were expressed by Professor Stephen Possony when he was presenting a paper on the political aspects of development. He . said that in a modern statecraft there are seven rules which govern it. For our purposes of independence I would choose to quote only three of the rules submitted by him. I quote : "One of the rules of modern statecraft is that ethnic groups must not live under foreign domination but are entitled to self-government in a form best fitted to their circumstances . Secondly, groups as yet incapable of running their own affairs may be admitted through temporary tutelage. However, they should be assisted in transforming their traditional institutions into modern self-administrations ." This is important, hon. members : "As the group matures it is expected to assume more and more administrative functions until full independent self-government can be achieved." Finally, each people should possess the right 83

stages of trying to acquire independence. There are, however, some points which need to be clarified before we agree to the motion. One of the speakers gave us promises during his speech to such an extent that he even said our people would be represented at the United Nations. Much of the discussion at the United Nations is the way the black man is treated in South Africa. The reason our South African Government is detested is because they alone attend the United Nations without a black man to accompany them, and that is why the Republican Government is trying now to introduce multi-national sport, in order to appease world opinion. I do not know whether the United Nations will accept us because when we get there we shall purport to be members of the Transkeian Government and representing the Transkeian Government there, although coming from South Africa. Next will go a representative from Zululand to say he represents the Zulus, yet coming from South Africa. CHIEF MINISTER : Lesotho is in South Africa. MR. XOBOLOLO : There will also be a delegation from Basotho Kwakwa to the United Nations, although there are Basotho proper in Lesotho. We have contained ourselves to be content that the Republican Government will never forsake us. Even in a state of war we shall be on the battlefield side by side with them. We forget that when we become a Government our destiny will not depend on anybody. When war is declared in South Africa, who will help us? It is obvious that we shall not allow that Government to dictate to us . When they dictate to us that will be the parting of the roads because we shall not adhere to their dictation. I think we should do these things step by step. It has been mentioned that the Ciskei should amalgamate with us although we have not yet dealt with this motion before us. It is suggested that the Governments of these homelands must federate and even then we are not yet sure of that. We want to be completely independent and we suggest that we go to the people and consult with them. If they agree that will be all right, if not we must give it up. If the people have agreed it means to say that they have been consulted secretly. We now demand that this matter be discussed openly in the Assembly and that word should go out from this Assembly to the people. There are suggestions of a certain committee on which it is said we should be represented . Some have even mentioned that we should go to the international court in the Hague and claim our rights. We maintain that we are South Africans and everything that belongs to South Africa belongs to us all. If we intend to be independent here in South Africa we should not be told everything by other people. One of the speakers opposite asserted that we in the Transkei are the most advanced of the black countries in Africa. I admit that, and therefore we should not be told by others what to do, more so when they tell us at second hand and give us secondhand ideas. Would it not be a cowardly attitude if we refused to go to the people and place this matter before them? Why I suggest that everything has been spoonfed to you, so that you are cowards, is that South Africa is very well armed and yet they are the biggest cowards. What we suggest is that the white people should live with us harmoniously. There is not a single white man, I feel, who could debate better than our Chief Minister. We feel that here in this House we are led by a very courageous man who can conduct a discussion very well and lead this country very ably back to green pastures.

the buck by saying: Well, such things are not of our own making. By being independent we shall make our own rules and laws and we shall be answerable for such. Actually, one of the speakers mentioned something about Lesotho and the ties between that country and South Africa, as far as labour is concerned. I am sure as an independent state we shall have international ties and we shall make conditions so that we shall feel that when workers from the Transkei go out to the Republic their position will be secured. It is a truth beyond doubt that policies, to be successful, must enjoy popular consent. Perhaps the mover of the amendment has that in mind. We are a reasonable Government, we deal with people, we have the interests of the people at heart. I do not think that any person can quote any time when there has been a sign or even a smell of coercion. I want to assure the hon. members who might have doubts about our intentions that we do not intend to push independence down the throats of the people Any reasonable person , and I think any reasonable Government from time to time will send feelers, and we will not go about shouting that we are now sending out feelers. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Is this going to be a secret affair? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I am still speaking. We know we have sent feelers, we know the public is interested in independence, but we won't end there. We know that you always say you represent the people just as much as we do. A discussion of this motion in the House at this stage was no way whereby we wanted to push people into accepting independence. As representatives of the people we also wanted to see and to know how they feel about the whole matter, then the next step will follow. The people will be consulted. Why first of all say we will go to the people when we have not even discussed the thing as responsible representatives of the people ? I know some of them are irresponsible and they would fail in putting the matter across to the people. Before I sit down, as the hon. member for Qumbu seems to be worried, I want to assure the hon. member for Engcobo that Engcobo will be fully represented in the recess committee by whomsoever this House feels is fit to represent Engcobo. With those few words, I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I do not intend to take up much time in discussing this matter. As the mover of the amendment has requested, this matter should be discussed above party politics. That has been manifested by the way this side of the House has accepted that suggestion. In as much as we listened attentively when the hon. members on the governing side discussed this matter, it behoves us to tell you that we are interested in this question of independence. We have our own party policy to which we stick tenaciously, but in the meantime we have not as much touched upon that policy. With regard to this motion of independence we on this side have stated that we cannot accept it until the people we represent have been consulted. They also agree that this must be taken to he elecorate. Why is it taking such a long time to discuss, as both sides are in agreement about that? The hon. members opposite tell us that they are intent on seeing this motion through, so much so that they are relying on their large numbers. The difficulties and the oppressions of the black man suffered at the hands of the white man have been clearly enunciated in this House. We have come to the stage now where we should come together to the final 84

The reason I have confidence in the hon. the Chief Minister is that not one person in the Transkei has been sent to prison and yet the Republican Government is so afraid of people that it will even imprison a woman. I request this House to accept the motion by the hon. the Chief Minister, but with our amendment for a referendum. (Interjections) I think it is customary for some of the members of this House to keep heckling even when we are discussing a very serious matter. We rely on your mercy, Mr. Chairman, because I realise you are a chairman who will maintain the dignity of this House. As I stated from the outset, I am requesting the hon. members opposite to elevate this question above party politics. The last speaker on the Government side admitted that they do not want to ram down the throats of the people this business of independence. They also want the people to be consulted. We are not going to beckon her on to this side of the House because she agrees with what we say. I can only say that you should accept what she says because she agrees with us. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in supporting the motion that the Government of the Republic be approached to grant independence to the Transkei within a period of five years, which was introduced into this House by the hon. the Chief Minister, I am going to speak today as a representative of the people of Emboland. When I was elected into this House with close to 40 000 votes, I have never in my life seen people who are more frightened and terror stricken than the people I see today, so insecure as to evade their duty of deciding their destiny and the destiny of their people when they are called upon to do so today. What are they frightened of? Must I say they are cowards and are not strong enough to say the people of the Transkei want independence while their fathers wanted independence long ago? We have been given an opportunity today to speak on behalf of the people and voice the views of our people that they want independence. The intellectuals of this country want independence ; the masses want independence. Why delay the issue and refer the matter back to the people when you are truly the representatives of the people ? When we were in Cape Town not so long ago we were given a mandate by the voters of Cape Town to bring this motion to the notice of the hon. the Chief Minister and everybody else. The African people have been subjected to all sorts discrimination, oppression and all sorts of things of indecencies . Today we have the opportunity of emancipating our people from the shackles of slavery. I thought the hon. members of this House would consider themselves very lucky people because it has fallen to them to make a decision today, at a time when the Prime Minister of the Republic and the general public of the Republic are wishing to extend a hand and give you what you want. They have even offered to assist the Transkei as much as possible for a long time. Is there any reason, therefore, that we are frightened to take the plunge ? I said, and I want to repeat, that I count ourselves in this House as ver lucky people because South Africa has been a country ruled by the Whites for a long time. It is strange, therefore, that some of the hon. members here, particularly on the Opposition benches, will want the status quo to remain because nobody is happy to be oppressed and I am sure, hon. gentlemen of the Opposition, that when you get back home or to your families you will be pointed at with fingers, saying to you that you are co-operators of

the people who are oppressing us when we have been given an opportunity to fend for ourselves. I liken people who will not take an opportunity when it is offered to them to little children who, when they get to the stage of crawling, will crawl for a long time until their grandmothers assist them by gnawing their kunckles, when the baby will then stand and then after learning to walk he will not run for fear of falling. The time has come for the people of the Transkei to take the plunge for better or for worse. We have been subjected to all sorts of indecencies for 300 years. If you ask anybody in the street whether he enjoys life, most people will tell you they are so oppressed that they do not enjoy life at all. Arguments have been made to the Republican Government and requests have been made to improve the salary scales of our people, and their wages. People have asked for rights to form trade unions from the Republican Government, but the reply has always been in the negative ― that you will not be allowed to take part in any such activity. You know how the Executive of Kwazulu have tried their best to get their people into trade unions. The reply from the Minister of Labour has been that he will not allow any trade unions for the black people. Now the people look up to us to help them and succour them from these difficulties and we have discovered that there is no course other than taking our independence. We have done everything to exert the Republican Government to be of assistance to our people. This is the only way as far as we are concerned that will emancipate our people. More and above, Mr. Chairman, we in the Transkei were the first people to have self-government and we have ten years' experience. Imagine what would happen when Baphuthotswana would ask for independence before us! What sort of thing would that be? Imagine the people of Leboa taking independence before us ! What sort of thing would that be? The Prime Minister of the Republic has made this offer to every one of the homelands. I even consider personally that even the five years within which we are asking for this independence is too long, because we have precedents in Lesotho, Swaziland and Botswana who took their independence within a period of one year from the British Government. I am supporting this motion with the whole of my heart, hon. members. I am sure that the people of the Transkei will be happy when they hear that this motion has been before the House. In fact, you know when the hon. member who is in the Opposition today moved the motion self-government in 1961 , most of the people took it that he actually meant independence. You can imagine how disappointed they were when they discovered it was still to be under the thumb of the Republican Government. I want to ask the hon. members of the Opposition to consider this motion seriously and not to adopt tactics that are evading the issue. When they say we must refer this motion to the people I am very suspicious that they will go to the people and frighten them and tell them to reject the issue, (Interjections) because they will starve if they are independent. You will tell them they will go ragged if they are independent. I will refer them only to Lesotho and tell them there is not a single Basotho there who is ragged today. I will refer them to Botswana and tell them that the people there are thrifty and are prosperous, that economically they are becoming sound and solid; that they 85

have discovered minerals, that they have discovered diamonds in Botswana, that the Lord is good enough to provide for us just as he provides for the birds of the air. With those few words, Mr. Chairman, I am supporting this motion whole-heartedly. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is very pleasant to speak on this motion. The leaders of both sides of the House have come to an agreement that this motion must be discussed above party politics. What we should have done was to have examined the motion in its entirety, regardless of who says this or that. The motion asks that the Transkei should become independent. Let me first annouce that as I stand talking here today I know the opinion of my paramount chief. I also know the opinion of the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni, but I am referring to the opinion of my own paramount chief on this side of the House. I think whoever has listened to my speeches from the time of the Bunga up to now would be surprised if I denied the need for independence. (Interjections) They would also be surprised to hear that the hon. the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland denied the need for independence. When the late Dr. Verwoerd came to introduce the policy of separate development and the idea of these Bantustans the hon. paramount chief, who was sitting over there• said it would be a good idea if we were allowed to cultivate this tree which was given to us, care for it and water it and prune it to what we desire. Did that not mean that we wanted to rule ourselves ? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF NDAMASE: I think the hon. the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni meant that we must be allowed to rule ourselves and rule ourselves completely. Some people think that the independence of the Transkei is synonymous with separate development. I deny that. Swaziland is independent and there is multi-racialism all over the country, in the hotels and so on. Lesotho is the same. White and Black live there together and all the laws enacted in those countries are for everybody regardless of colour. The hon. the Chief Minister has felt that the blanket which covers him is full of thorns and therefore he must cast it away. (Laughter) We have also been concurring that this blanket is thorny and when he wants to take it off our shoulders, why should we not agree? At Nyandeni we were visited by the Minister of Bantu Administration, Mr. De Wet Nel. There were a lot of people at that meeting. The Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland told Mr. De Wet Nel that we want independence.

Would we be prepared to accept this lack of scientific knowledge in the Transkei? I had a conversation with a doctor who came from outside the Republic. He said that here in the Transkei doctors are very few. There are not enough black people to serve their people as doctors in the Transkei. He told me that in their country they had agreed to send as many doctors as necessary to the Transkei when the country became independent, If, however, their doctors are invited by the Republican Government to go and practise there they would refuse to send them because the Republican Government practises the colour bar. They are prepared to assist under-developed countries, he said, and therefore they will send qualified people to assist the Transkei. If anyone refuses independence does that person really believe that we must remain permanently under the Republican Government, which itself is not fully developed? We are a burden to the Republic. Look at the progress that has been made in Umtata since selfgovernment was introduced. Time and again during the time of the Bunga we petitioned for the establishment of industries here but nothing was done Look at Butterworth now. Escom is bringing electricity to Umtata and in two years' time you will see what industries have been established. We want these industries established here in order to absorb all the workseekers who have to go to work elsewhere. We chiefs constantly have to deal with cases of malcontent and sometimes misbehaviour when the homeowner is away at the labour centres. Sometimes a young man recently married says he wants to go to work and leave his young wife at home. You know what I mean, so I will say nothing more about it. Hon. members this recess committee which is to be elected will have the responsibility of gauging the feelings of the people of the Transkei. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That's right. CHIEF NDAMASE : I would be pleased, therefore, if that committee would have the right to co-opt experts in constitutional law from the Republic as well as from other countries. That refers to paragraph (viii) of the motion. I am not against inviting officials from the Republic because they would then be in a position to decide whether we are in agreement or not and there would be no conflagration amongst us. Some of the hon. members have suggested that the Transkei is poor. We admit that, but are we poorer than the Israelites when they left for Canaan? And what is the position now in Israel? As a matter of fact, a man who can say that he built all you can see in his kraal is a proud man. You would not feel so proud of your kraal if it were built by someone else. The Republic itself is not fully developed. Will it continue to be able to bear the burden of responsibility for us as well? Some people claim there can be no state within a state, but if it is necessary would you not tell your son that a certain portion of your kraal belongs to him? The Republic is ruled by white people who are the descendants of those who snatched this country from our forefathers.

Can Nyanda region say something diametrically op posed to the wishes of their paramount chief? I know very well that the chiefs of Nyanda do not want to ram ideas down the people's throats. It is true that we have not asked for this independence, but the Prime Minister, Mr. Vorster, has offered it to us on a plate. He said it last year in parliament, together with the Minister of Bantu Administration, and they said without any strings attached to it they are prepared to give any Bantustan independence if they request it. If you are granted what you do not possess, why don't you accept it? If we do not accept this independence does it not mean that we are prepared to retain job reservation and migratory labour and the other thorny issues in the life of a black man? Would we not be accepting Bantu Education, which was created solely to keep the black man down while the Whites receive proper education? I am merely repeating what has already been said in this House.

As they have now come to realise that they committed a sin in depriving people of their own land, let them now give us a portion. Can you, living in the home of a conqueror who tells you he is allocating you a portion of that place, say no - you want the whole place? (Laughter) But if the owner of a place gives you a portion, would you not accept that por-

86

tion so that if you have to attack that person you can use that as a springboard? I do not say that the Transkei will invade the Republic. What we should aim at in the Republic is evolution. Here in Africa we have developed a mentality of black power consciousness, and if we allow that to come immediately things will not be too good. Let us move in such a way that all we do will be in harmony with the Republic. The Prime Minister of the Republic said: Gentlemen, here is a loaf of bread - whosoever wants to eat, let him take from this loaf. Some people may say he is not sincere. I believe he is sincere. He is too big a man to tell lies. If you entertain any doubts you may snatch the bread from his hand. If he withdraws and refuses the opportunity, then you will know he was not sincere. If he is not sincere he will be a disgrace in the eyes of the world. Let us take the loaf. However, if this bread is half-baked let us bake it ourselves to perfection. I am in favour of the motion.

man to be free and to become acknowledged as a human being. What else can we do so that we do not remain the property of the white man when we achieve independence? Must the Republic forever have a Department of Bantu Administration to rule the black people? The hon. the Chief Minister has stated that the districts he wishes to incorporate into the Transkei has white citizens whom he says he will allow to remain as citizens of the Transkei. Mr B. P. VAPI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I support the motion by the hon. the Chief Minister which stipulates that the Republican Government should grant independence to the people of the Transkei within five years under the conditions he has laid down in this House. After ten years the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei in his struggle was a target for assegais and bullets. In his mind, amongst other things, he had this in view ― to free the black man from the shackles of domination which have been imposed on the black man by the white man since he first set foot in this country. When we have become completely independent all the laws which are enacted in this House will be given to our own State President for signature. It might be Dr. Matanzima. (Laughter). We will be able to create the Transkei Department of Defence and we will feel relieved from the oppression that we have suffered for 300 years, because the heavy yoke that rests on the shoulders of the black man since the white man came to this country will be removed. We will be able to move freely in the entire continent as a free nation. We will have the advantage of enjoying friendly relations with countries that are friendly to the Republic of South Africa, and I am sorry to say we will be enemies of all those countries that are not friendly to South Africa. We will by all means retain friendly relations with the Republic of South Africa and we will respect the Republic of South Africa as a mother country. If a country like Lesotho with its poorer resources can be independent, why not the Transkei ? It depends on the contribution of the Transkeian citizen himself. We will be able to have a fishing industry along the coastline from the Kei River to the Umtamvuna River in the east. If that is done properly it could enrich the people of the Transkei. From Port St. John's to the Umtamvuna River we can plant sugar, tea and coffee. If these regions can be utilized in planting these crops scientifically the Transkei will provide all its needs even to the extent of exporting some of its products. Port St. John's has numbers of natural forests in which valuable timber is found, which could be used to manufacture certain items which could fetch very high prices. In these forests there are numerous wild animals which adorn the country. Port St. John's is a popular holiday resort and there are many beautiful sites which are a national heritage. Port St. John's could therefore be called the Paradise of the Transkei.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF NDAMASE: I was with the Ngqeleni people last Saturday and they want this motion. However, this is what I should request of the Government. When we write our new Constitution it will not be written by us alone. Those who gave us this Constitution - let us beware lest they write the new Constitution in such a way that it will favour them at all times. It must be our independence and not resemble the independence of communistic countries. Mr. Chairman, I have already stated that the black people have assumed black power consciousness to the extent that they know what they require. The black people, particularly the youth, are prepared to dedicate themselves . When that power comes, who shall control them and stop them from rash action? Is it not we elderly people? As things are and whilst we are not yet fully independent, but still under the domination of the white race which subscribes to the principle that a black man should not enter the domain of certain professions that is, the principle of job reservation - when our children are studying in school they are always aware that whatever standard of education they attain they will never be able to attain the top rungs of whatever profession they undertake, which are reserved for the white people . Even if a black youth constantly tries to improve his knowledge he is constantly aware that no matter how hard he tries he will never attain even the position of an under-secretary. That results in frustration on the part of our children. Then out of sheer frustration our children become desperate and imbibe bad habits. As soon as we gain independence our children will try their best to learn until they become expert in certain fields of work.

Coming to the question of the economy, I am not sure whether I am correct in saying that a proclamation was issued by the Republican Government denying us mineral rights in the Transkei. I am sure there was such a proclamation. As minerals are the backbone of the wealth of a nation , do they really mean to say that we should not try to obtain rights to any minerals here? Do they mean to say that the Republic will have the rights to those minerals? When the white electorate is in the heat of their election campaigns they sometimes speak the truth without realising it. They have sometimes told the Iwhite electorate that the time has come for the black

Mr. Chairman, the opening up of the Wild Coast for tourism would also contribute to the viability of the state economy. The Transkei has cattle in abundance, but at present our stock it attacked by diseases of various kinds . It is quite clear that because of the large cattle population of the Transkei meat industries could be established to the benefit of the country. We could also hold dialogue with the Republic of South Africa because I am surprised to note that after they promised to grant the Transkei independence they have started putting up camps for the Coloureds in the 87

Western Cape. Methinks it is the intention of the Government to drive away the Coloureds from our midst before we get complete independence. I do not think it would be wise to allow that position to develop because the Coloured people are our progeny. Besides, the Coloured people are artisans and are experts at housebuilding. If we have no Coloured population amongst us we shall be compelled to resort to our old-style method of building with mud. I was trying to explain to those people who think that the Transkeian Territories are very poor and therefore cannot be self-supporting. Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am grieved to notice in this House that we are going to stand up and address the House according to party affiliations, yet it was decided that this discussion should be taken above party politics. That would enable us to speak distinctly about our feelings. This question of independence does allow any speaker to speak freely and speak his mind. It would appear to me that we are now taking sides instead of expressing our opinions and examining every item very carefully. Mr. Chairman, it should be clear in our minds that in this House we are representing the ideas and wishes of the people. If you are sent to ask for someone's daughter you usually tell the people there that the cattle are finished where you come from. (Laughter).

NOTICES OF MOTION 31. Mr. G. G. Kutu gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Republican Government be requested that all the people banned under Proclamation R.400 be released in order to enjoy rights as citizens of South Africa." 32. Chief G. W. Nkwenkwezi gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Transkei Townships Board with a view to erecting shelters at all bus ranks in the villages or towns of the Transkei."

REQUEST FOR INDEPENDENCE The debate was resumed. Mr G. G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was quite satisfied when it was originally mentioned in this House that this motion should be discussed above party politics and that everybody should be free to express his opinion. I know that we shall be confused in our minds in thinking that if a particular member of the Opposition supports what the Government side says it will be taken that he has crossed the floor. Similarly, if an hon. member of the Government side does not support what the Government side is saying it will be construed equally that he has crossed the floor. We members who have been elected by the people do not like to hurt the feelings of the electorate. If anyone has made a mistake it is for him to try and ask for pardon. I know very well that all the elected members have the right to speak their minds and after that to go to the electorate and give an explanation of what has transpired . If the amendment put forward in this House by the Opposition was supported by the Government side I would have been contented . I am going to give this House my opinion and if in that opinion of mine I have made a mistake it will be the duty of the electorate to point that out. (Laughter) Someone has already said that the electorate will not send me to this House again. The Transkeian Government should have consulted with the people beforehand or the caucus should have met together to discuss this matter. Before I resume my seat, my personal opinion is that I do not accept this motion and I support the amendment. Mr. Chairman, that is the end of my argument. (Laughter) Mr C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, for the first time in the history of this Chamber I will speak very well about the Afrikaner people today. It is very important for us, the people of the Transkei, to say thanks to the Afrikaner people. Everybody was here when the Deputy Minister opened this session. He said in undoubted words : I have come here to tell you that the chance is yours. He said: You can take independence if you want it. And whosoever shall ask you whether you are going to get money you must know he is dreaming and talking nonsense, because you know the Republican Government is ready to finance you to the best of its ability. We have always looked forward to a day when we people of these territories can be given freedom. Now, I want to warn the hon. members of this Assembly and warn them seriously. What is the purpose of this amendment on an issue which is nationally vital? You have seen the example shown by the hon. member for Engcobo - the confusion . That is exactly the purpose of the amendment it is to confuse the members of this Legislative Assembly. Now he wants to speak out his mind and the mind of the people of Engcobo, but because he was told in caucus that he must not support the main motion . (Interjections)

I want to draw the attention of this House to think back to the time of our ancestors. Those people used to wear karosses and they were shambokked. As it is today we do not wear karosses as our fathers did, but the shamboks still keep on thrashing us on our backs. I want to be informed and clearly enlightened as to whether our people, after independence, will be free. (Interjections) Do you want to tell me they will be set free? Whoever even in his wildest dreams ever thought that the heart of another person could be transplanted into another human being? Whoever imagined that there would be a successful flight from the earth to the moon? (Laughter) I will continue talking even tomorrow. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member tor Engcobo, please continue with your address . Mr KUTU: All these achievements are the result of the time in which we live. In my opinion I was elected in Engcobo by the electorate there and this is the third time I have been returned to this House, because I am the real mouthpiece of the people. I want this House to be informed by me, because they are very fond of laughing and they think that in this motion we are dealing with party politics. Before I finish I shall ask the Chairman to persuade the members to be quiet. The House is so uneasy that I am obliged to ask the Chairman to adjourn the House. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 27th March 1974. WEDNESDAY, 27TH MARCH 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TABLING OF REPORTS

888

CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the reply to Motion No. 31 as debated at the 1973 session of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly.

OPPOSITION MEMBER : Where were you?

somewhere else to stand. He is making so much noise over my head ... (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

Mr DIKO: · he must dilly-dally and talk things which he does not know he is saying. The purpose of this amendment, the mover of this amendment says we must go to the people. Who is he to talk about the people? What does he know about the future of the people? Isn't he the very man who has flouted the orders of the party he is standing for? Isn't he the man? So now, to hide the fact that he is not supporting independence he must confuse the minds of these followers of his. (Interjections) Going to the people means you must go and solicit the views of the people. Why doesn't he stand down as a leader of the Opposition party, because the views of the people of that party say he must stand down, and they said it at a congress? No-one must come and talk about going to the people ...

Mr DIKO: It is time my learned friend opened his ears and opened them very wide to learn about human rights. We are talking about human rights. Now, my friend, when we have all passed the matriculation standard in the Transkei we are now talking about, we shall not look into the colour of the man. What we shall look for are the merits of the man. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr DIKO : Be he black, yellow or white, if he is a man who is suitable to lead the Transkei we shall all vote for him. We shall employ men of understanding, so that is the important crux of the whole thing — that people will be free to realise themselves now, not as subhumans, not as underdogs, but now they will be on a plane of humanity and enjoy the fruits of this world as human beings. So that is what we are looking forward to. It is a pathetic point. Let me give an example again. You take our friends, the seconded officials working in the Transkei . If he is a magistrate he gets so much and he gets a house and it is a free house, but when a black man takes over from these seconded officials, first of all he is not going to get the money paid to the seconded officials. In the Transkei the pay is according to the colour of the man. To enjoy that house he must pay an amount far above his means, so when we are in the Transkei we shall call our own these things will be regularized. And I want to emphasize it before the Chairman tells me my time is up (Laughter).

CHAIRMAN: I sincerely implore the hon. member to desist from the tendency to make personal charges against hon. members, please. Mr DIKO: It is most unfortunate that people will not understand the trend of argument. We are talking about an amendment which seeks the members of the Legislative Assembly to go to the people, and I am not talking personalities of anyone when I am talking about an amendment which says we must go to the people. (Interjections) It must be clearly understood that the leader who says we must go to the people never respects the views of the people. The consensus of the intention of the motion was to try to keep together the members of a party that was falling out. That was the intention. Thanks to the hon. member for Nyanda who broke that wall and spoke the truth.

These white gentlemen, at no time have we ever hated them. The fact is that they are the people who hated staying with us. All these notices which you find in the post offices and railways are not there because we wanted them, but because the people from overseas did not want to be next to a black man. So in the Transkei we will say to the white man: Stay and sit side by side with us - we want your brains, but remember you are not a master, you are an equal. Equality of man is the hope of the development of this country. That is why we have these white boeties in this House. They take notes and whatever they say has been prepared for them by people who want to stay here as masters. We do not want them to stay as masters but as equals who will develop the Transkei as our own. It will be unfair, Mr. Chairman, if I have to sit down without denying emphatically the fact that I was ever a man with murderous intentions. It must be clear that the people who came to me came for money. As to where the plot was made for killing the hon. the Chief Minister I do not know. I was never there and it must be realised that I refused.

I am talking about the motion of independence for the people of these territories and I am glad he said that Paramount Chiefs of Eastern and Western Pondoland support independence, and we go to independence with full hope that we shall realise the following items. That is why I said today I am a friend of the Afrikaner people. All the time I have always advocated freedom of thought, freedom of motion, freedom of assembly; and today we are given a territorial estate which shall be ours and we shall speak freely. So what freedoms have we been asking for when the rulers of the country say they shall give us the Transkei ? It must be remembered, and not only remembered, that the claims that are made by some members beyond the Transkei are not only fallacious but foolish, and do divulge a sense of slave mentality that has always been there because we have never owned Johannesburg but we have been part of Johannesburg because the Transkei is part of the Republic. Now, in a big part of Johannesburg we had no right to enjoy the fruits there. Who did not see and understand the sons of the Transkei working in those mines when they were paid 25c a day? Who does not see the sons of the Transkei in that very area we are claiming today, underpaid? Today, to give an example — I am not attacking the Republic, I just want to show the gap which is sometimes termed the wage gap — -"now, the Prime Minister of this country is getting about R25 000 perhaps. I am not saying it is so, but it may be. Now, the Chief Minister of the Transkei is getting R8 000. Is that human? Is that justice? So when we claim independence we say we shall adopt the policy of equal pay for equal work. Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, I shall appeal to you, Sir. I think this hon. member must find

If anybody had read further in those records you will find I said : Why kill a man? So I refused. I must not hear again in this House anybody attributing to me murderous intentions. I am a man of integrity and let me repeat - I am a man of royal blood. I respect everybody and I love everybody, so I will continue to have good intentions. That is why the leaders of the parties in this Transkei must be chiefs. (Interjections) These commoners always have bad intentions. They always have murderous intentions and want that they alone must go forward and enjoy the fruits. In our Transkei commoners will be relegated to their places. A commoner has always been the subject of a chief, so the chief will continue to be the big leaders in this country, our Transkei. So, Mr Chairman, I come finally to a point which is very important. The

89

mover of the amendment must withdraw it. We don't want when this thing is voted on that it is said there is no unanimity. His intention is that there should be no unanimity. I know him. He sits there mute and he will not speak again. His house has fallen and the DP must be abolished. It must be abolished by God. (Laughter) Hon. members, we must vote not on the amendment. The amendment must be withdrawn as it happened in the days of Councillor Maninjwa, when the Transkeian Territorial Authority asked for selfgovernment unanimously. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the motion before the House is the independence of the Transkei as it is. CHIEF MINISTER : As it is? Read the motion.

Time and again the UNO and the Hague have said they must hand over South-West Africa but the Republican Government has adamantly refused to hand it over and nothing is done to them. Well, the trouble is unfortunately that the UNO itself has not got a military punch to make any power submit to its ruling. We would not like to hear when history is written that we gave the lead in the Transkei to the other Bantustans, that we agreed we should get only 13% of the land in South Africa for all the Bantustans. That is why we want to go to the people, so that the hon. the Chief Minister will not get the blame for this. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Not only, man. Who said "only"? Mr ZIBI: Many have gone out of the way to explain what good things we shall get when we have independence. No-one is arguing with that, hon. members. An oppressed man will catch at any straw. As this decision because of its national importance will go down in history, what is irregular about going to the people and saying: Here it is. Our Government is applying to the Republican Government for the independence of the country ― and the people will say O.K. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Who said that it is not going to be done? Mr ZIBI : It is not in the motion.

Mr ZIBI: The last speaker has demonstrated how important and cogent the motion is. This kind of motion needs presence of mind and the approach to it must be calm and reasonable, so there is no need for any excitement or emotionalism by any hon. member who wants to go into the motion as it should be gone into owing to its importance. Hitherto there has been no speaker in this House who is in principle opposed to independence. The only difference is that the amendment seeks to say that the people should be consulted before Pretoria and the motion as it reads hasn't that provision for going to the people even if the intention is to go to the people. If, perhaps, the last election had been on the ticket of independence I do believe there would have been no such amendment because the people would have elected members on that card. Hitherto we have been part of South Africa and we have not had, so far, the consolidation of the Transkei as envisaged by the claims of our hon. Chief Minister.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You should have just added a section instead of moving an amendment. Mr ZIBI: It is actually the economic aspect of the whole thing that may worry a thinking man -- not one belonging to any party or to no party, but just an ordinary Transkeian. Now, the economic aspect of the whole thing makes one remember that in the industrial centres we have seen people from the independent countries come to look for work. You go to the Witwatersrand where you meet people from Portuguese East Africa, from the tropical countries, from the Ciskei, etc., and you find that all these people from outside South Africa have passports and there are conditions of employment in those passports, and what is noticeable about it is that the employer dictates the terms. That is why we are keen, hon. members . . . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are the people going to accept those terms ?

In our full complement we are 110 members representing millions of people who are Transkeians - that is, Transkeians in the rural areas and Transkeians in the urban areas. That is why some of us feel that these people should be consulted before this thing is finalized. We have not up to now suggested anything to show that we are opposed to independence. Now, the great thing lies in this: Once the Transkei is excised by independence from the rest of the Republic it means it is a decision which will be either fatal for the lifetime of the Transkei or it will be a decision for the betterment of the Transkei as a country. Perhaps what worries some of us is the sentiment that we are aborigines of this country and we feel that everything we do must really be a decision by the people as it is a decision for the people. I appreciate the promises that have been advanced by the Republican Government in promising assistance to us as the Government we are, but these promises are purely ethereal. What guarantee could one have that they may not one day be broken? I appreciate the fact that some of our problems once we get independence will be taken over to the United Nations. I appreciate the fact that if we have any legal difficulties perhaps we may well go to the Hague.

Mr ZIBI : That is why we say the people should decide and make sure that our decision is their decision. Statistics will show, for example, that in the Transkei only we have more people in the urban areas than those in the rural areas, so that it is a good thing that even those people in the urban areas have a say in the whole thing and then we are all happy. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are from there and you have a say here. Mr ZIBI: You see, I don't want to fool around with this matter. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are fooling around now. Mr ZIBI: Let us look at Lesotho, for instance. As soon as they got their independence the British felt these people were more of a liability than an asset to them and after releasing them they gave them their usual annual subsidy but subsequently it was withdrawn. I would detest to see a day when a man of the standing of our Chief Minister will go round cap in hand looking for donations from all over the country as it now obtains in Lesotho. Sir, that is why we are keen that the people be consulted and, as I say, their decision is my decision. Let us not, as this group of 110 members, arrive at some secret agreement with-

Now, supposing for argument's sake that we get to UNO and they say we should get the Transkei that is claimed by the hon. the Chief Minister as it is, and the Republican Government says "Good-" basing their argument on the fact that we have agreed to take independence of the Transkei as it was at the time it was given over to us . That is why we feel that the people must be brought in so that they may not one day say it was the Matanzima Government that did this. Take the question of South-West Africa, for example.

90.

are to explain the full implications of such a constitutional step and seek, by way of a referendum, the attitude of the people towards independence. Naturally, it is the duty of every member in this House, as a representative of the people in this constituency, to report to the constituency that sent him to this House and advise that constiuency abou the decisions of this House. In 1961 when the motion for the application of self-government was tabled in this House the very same members who say that this matter should be taken to the people opposed my suggestion on that occasion - that the proposal that we should have self-government should first of all be known by the people of the Transkei . They were quite correct because they were elected to come and make decisions in this House — decisions which are favourable to the people they represent. In any event, I want to say that the Opposition is now marching behind the times because the people have been urging their representatives to seek independence. In 1972 I moved a motion in this House requesting the Republican Government to grant the Transkei independence. That was because I was being urged by the wishes of the people. In 1968 the voters of the Transkei gave me the mandate to seek independence. The 1973 elections also gave me that mandate and I am certain that the hon. members must have forgotten that the elections of 1973 were fought on the ticket of independence and the land claims. Now, Mr Chairman, when the South Africa Act was under discussion in 1909 it was fitting that the four provinces should first of all seek the mandate of the people because they were independent states, independent republics. That is why a referendum was held. In 1960 the referendum was essential because the people of British origin had a dual loyalty to South Africa and Great Britain. There were two flags - the South African flag and the Union Jack of Great Britain. In our case the Transkei has long clamoured for self-determination. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER: It is one unit of a country with one flag. Mr K. M. GUZANA: You have got the Republican flag here, haven't you? CHIEF MINISTER: Well, the Republic is the country from which we are trying to get away. Hon. members, the people we represent here do not know that we are not independent. (Interjections) As far as they are concerned, in their own way of thinking, the Transkei is already a sovereign state. But I want hon. members across the floor to rest assured that there will be full consultation with the Transkeian people on this issue.

out the people on the important question of independence. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is secret about it? Mr ZIBI: Why I mention that is because there was an unsavoury comment in a statement in the Sunday Times, I think it was, immediately after the summit meeting in Pretoria when it was said that the Chief Minister had some secret agreement with Mr Vorster. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is secret about this House? Don't talk about the lies of the Sunday Times. Mr ZIBI: It was not denied. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It was. You don't read the papers properly. Mr ZIBI: That is why I feel, hon. members, that it must not be said the Transkeian Assembly on its own took so vital a decision without consulting the people. We were brought here by the people and there is nothing to fear, because if the case is put across to the people they will decide the way they ought to decide. I need not belabour the issue any more, Mr Chairman . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are quite right. You have belaboured enough rubbish. Mr ZIBI: I support the proposal that we do go to the people. By going to the people we do not mean we are opposing independence. We are going to the people who brought us to this House.

CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I think we shall now grant an opportunity to the mover of the motion to reply. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am certain that it has pleased the hon. members on the Government benches to find that the Opposition is in principle falling into line with the proposal which we have in this motion, particularly when we know that in 1972 the Opposition opposed the very same motion and put an amendment that the Republican Government be requested to grant full human citizenship rights to all races in the Republic of South Africa. Today something which happened in their party caucus during our absence has caused a complete somersault and the hon. members of the Opposition are in agreement with the principle in the motion. Mr K. M. GUZANA: We said you must go to the people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Your last speaker said you are in agreement. CHIEF MINISTER: I never heard them say they are opposed to the request for independence for the Transkei. Practically all the speakers have supported the motion, but some of them say the matter should be taken to the voters. The division in the ranks of the Opposition is therefore clearly imminent and that has assisted the Transkei people because even if they vote against the motion the people will know that they never opposed the motion, but in order to hide face in the leader's principle of multi-racialism he has decided to apply brakes to this motion. The philosophy of the Democratic Party is that they are opposed to the Balkanization of South Africa and are opposed to the establishment of the very Transkei Government, but today, because they feel the inevitability of the march to independence, they have decided to apply logic in order to delay this. I know my hon. friend across the the floor. He took logic as one of his subjects in his degree, and also political philosophy, so he can philosophize. Now, Mr Chairman, the amendment suggests that before approaching the Republican Government to grant independence to the Transkei the Government of the Transkei should refer the whole subject matter of independence to the voters of the Transkei where they

Mr GUZANA: How is that going to be done? CHIEF MINISTER: As the hon. the Minister of the Interior told the House yesterday we shall not drag the people of the Transkei into independence if they express the view that they do not want it, but such consultation will be made with people who know the implications of an independent country. I cannot predict what the Government will decide upon this issue as you are making a request to them to consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to declare the Transkeian Territories an independent territory, but I think they will consult the tribal authorities, regional authorities, medical associations, civil servants, teachers' association, the Zenzele Women's Association, YWCA, YMCA - but not the Students' Association. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

91

2

handling this situation. Should the Transkei be admitted to membership of the United Nations I foresee a partnership with the Republic of South Africa in the defence of this country as a whole. In my maiden speech on this motion I said we were approaching the Republican Government from a position of helplessness as a conquered nation. We cannot give ultimatums to a friendly country on matters which could be approached by way of dialogue. Again, Mr Chairman, I want to refute the allegation which says that if the Transkei should become independent the Government may go around the country with cap in hand asking for assistance from other countries. Those who listened to the radio this morning should have heard the announcement that referred to the utterances of the hon. the Minister of the Interior of the Republican Government, Mr Connie Mulder, who said that it was the duty of the Republican Government to see that the homelands are economically viable. Now, what fears do you have, hon. members across the floor?

CHIEF MINISTER: We cannot consult children on this matter. The Government will certainly consult the Transkeian citizens who are in the Republic. I think that will meet the wishes of the Opposition, but we shall not take dictation from illiterate people who do not know the implications of the matter which is under discussion. Now, hon. members, I wish to pay tribute and voice the views of the House from this side of the House to the hon. member, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase. The hon. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase has been in politics since 1936 as a member of the Transkeian Territories General Council. I know him as a practical man with unswerving loyalty to his country. I know him as a man of responsibility with a pragmatic vision. He has an independent mind and we honour him for that. That is the attitude of the hon. members of this House on this side. They have got independent minds. (Laughter) We are very happy that he opened the minds of the hon. members across the floor on this issue of having to go back to the people and get a mandate from the people, when we already have the mandate from the people that we must have the Transkei independent. People have been asking us at our meetings what is this jitterbugging about. We want independence, so the people say.

Mr GUZANA: May I reply? The fear is that they will withhold their promise.

CHIEF MINISTER: You don't even have to go to the people. The people know you are their leaders and you can never go wrong. I think I have replied fully and sufficiently to the amendment. Now it is my hope that after theese assurances which I have given about the consultation which will be made by the Government, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will withdraw his amendent.

South Africa was not an economically viable country when it became independent, when it was declared a sovereign country in 1934, I think, Mr Chairman, subject to your correction. South Africa has gone through the path which we are travelling now, of having to get to a stage when we can say we can see to our own affairs. I remember when South Africa went off the gold standard and there was a depression in this country. The people of South Africa were ready to face the difficulties of that time and I am certain that an indedependent people will always be ready to face the difficulties of their independent country. When the Tswana people asked for independence from Great Britain they never held a referendum, nor did the Sotho people ask for a referendum, nor did the Swazi people claim a referendum. I remember quite well that their leaders went to Great Britain to draft the constitution for their independence. You take the referendum of the Republic in 1961 as a precedent. I have just told you it cannot be taken as a precedent because South Africa at the time was divided into two loyalties, a part of South Africa paying allegiance to another country, but we are all black people here. Even if you want to be white you cannot be white. Well, I can understand if you are satisfied with being a second-class South African citizen.

Mr GUZANA: Can I be given a chance to say something? CHAIRMAN : The motion before this House is a motion by the hon. the Chief Minister, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I shall now start with the amendment. Amendment put and negatived . Motion put and agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION BUDGET SPEECH

1974

Mr Chairman and hon. members, This year the Transkei embarks, in all earnest, on the last lap of its long road to independence. The resounding victory at the polls during 1973 set the seal on a decade of patient preparatory work and is a clear mandate for accelerated progress towards independence during the next five years. Responding to this challenge, the Government has planned , for the financial year 1974/75, expansion of existing services and the introduction of new services in many fields. Evidence of this energetic approach is to be found in the record Estimates of Expenditure and Revenue with which I shall now proceed to deal.

Now, Mr Chairman, I just want to say that I regret the utterances of the hon. member for Cofimvaba and also the hon. member for Mount Fletcher on alleged approaches which may be made by the Transkeian Government to the United Nations if there should be disagreement between the Transkei and the Republic on the land question. Now, these utterances do not reflect the attitude and policy of my Government. I do not foresee a clash between the Republican Government and the Transkeian Government because these two countries have from time immemorial developed together and solved their differences amicably in a family way. Mr GUZANA: Isn't that probably the reason why there is a suggestion that there must be some sort of land deal with independence amicably settled? (Laugter) All right, you needn't answer.

ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE TO BE DEFRAYED FROM THE TRANSKEIAN REVENUE FUND DURING THE PERIOD 1 APRIL 1974 TO 31 MARCH 1975

Overall picture :Honourable members are referred to page 1 of the printed Estimates before you. At R70 583 000 the total of all seven Votes is 24,27% or nearly one quarter higher than that (R56 796 000) for 1973/1974. For the information of the House I shall give the exact percen-

CHIEF MINISTER: I think, hon. member, you should rely on the integrity of the Government which is 22 92

plots is now being undertaken at a cost of R3 430 000 during 1974/1975. The department has assumed responsibility for the construction and maintenance of all forest roads in consideration of which R345 000 has been transferred from Vote 6. To enable the Merensky trust to carry out large-scale timber operations and thus also create employment opportunities, a 34-kilometre tarred road is to be built from Langgewacht to Singisi siding in the Umzimkulu district at an ultimate cost of R1 200 00 - about half of which will be spent in the coming year.

tages by which each Vote exceeds the corresponding figure for 1973/1974:Vote

Estimated expenditure (R)

Increase (%)

1234567

1 327 000 2 058 000 17 268 000 13 624 000 14 025 000 11 904 000 10 377 000 70 583 000

12,84 33,03 31,45 43,60 9,19 19,61 19,90 24,27

Vote 6: Roads and Works

Planning of the tarring of the road from Brooksnek to Magusheni is to commence and, once actual work starts, the cost of the project will run to six figures. This will improve the Transkei's communications with Natal immeasureably. Construction of an access road between Port St. Johns and the local Travertine quarry is due to commence and the cost will exceed R100 000. As with the forest road in Umzimkulu, the expanded quarrying activities thus made possible will create job opportunities. Re-planning of single quarters for 900 labourers at the Lambasi tea project will enjoy high priority and work on the R1 000 000 project will be commenced as soon as possible.

Individual Votes:

My colleagues will, of course, be dealing with their respective Votes during the Committee Stage and I shall, therefore, not anticipate their detailed explanations of these increases. The following are, however, the highlights :Vote 1:

Chief Minister and Finance

I am pleased to confirm the realisation of a longstanding ambition of this Government, to wit, the establishment of our own Information Service. In consultation with the Republican Government and on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission, a Branch: Information will be created within the organisation of my Department with effect from 1 April 1974. Details will be furnished in my policy speech but the cost will be in the region of R85 000 per annum under Vote 1 and some R22 000 (this year only) under Vote 6. Some R26 000 will be needed to expand the present Sub-Division: Revenue into a fully-fledged Branch : Taxation now that the Government has at its disposal a taxation expert from the Republic.

Building of some 660 additional classrooms for the introduction of the twelve-year syllabus in the schools as from January 1975 will be completed at a cost of R370 000. Vote 7: Health Rising costs at both Government and Mission Hospitals call for increased expenditure of R500 000.

Vote 2: Justice

General

Continued confidence on the part of the Republic in the Transkeian administration is manifest in the transferring of a further 6 Police Stations to the control of the Department of Justice.

I am particularly pleased to be able to announce that, in addition to the superannuation scheme, of which I made mention a few minutes ago and which will benefit certain of our lower-paid officers and labourers, the Government has decided to raise, with effect from 1 April 1974, the minimum daily wage of male labourers by 25% to R1 and that of female labourers by 331% to 80c. As from the same date all these labourers will also receive an upward adjustment of 20c per working day in their wages. The cost is R750 000 per annum, recurring. In so far as salaried officials are concerned, the consolidation into basic salaries of the 174% pensionable allowance payable since 1 April 1973 which I foreshadowed in my budget speech for 1973/1974, is still receiving the attention of the Public Service Commission. An announcement thereanent may be expected later in the year.

Vote 3: Education

Expansion of the establishment as a result of a reorganisation of the inspectorate and the introduction of the twelve-year syllabus accounts for R312 510 whilst books for pupils and school libraries will cost R1 450 000 compared with only R80 700 last year. This is a momentous increase and I shall leave it to the Hon. the Minister of Education to explain the full effects. Vote 4: Interior Increased social benefits with effect from 1 May 1974 account for R1 291 000. A complete revision of the pension rights currently available to officers holding prescribed posts in the Government Service and to teachers, as well as the introduction, for the first time ever, of superannuation benefits for certain categories of non-prescribed officers and labourers has also taken place. The two new schemes entail Government contributions to the funds in question of R2,29 for every R1 contributed by members as against the present R-for-R contributions. This matches retirement benefits in the Republic and in other Homelands. The additional expenditure is R1 250 000 per annum .

Vote 5:

I am pleased, however, to confirm press reports of a notable improvement in teachers' salaries to take effect this financial year. Over and above the amount to be devoted to teachers' salaries in the Estimates of Expenditure before you, the Republic is to provide funds exceeding R2 800 000 for this purpose. If possible, more detailed information will be given by the Minister of Education in the Committee Stage. Inflation: A factor common to the increases under all Votes is inflation "imported" into the Transkei via increasingly expensive goods and services over which my Government has no control. What proportion of the 25% overall increase in the Estimates of Expenditure

Agriculture and Forestry

The Ncora dam has, as honourable members know, been completed. Reticulation of water to irrigation 93

can be ascribed to this unavoidable circumstance is virtually impossible to determine. As will become apparent when I deal with the Estimate of Revenue, the Transkei is, however, fortunate indeed in being able to turn to the Republic of South Africa to make up an ever-increasing budgetary deficit without subjecting Transkeian citizens to heavier taxation. This is a privilege enjoyed by few in a world of escalating public expenditure. I shall return to this point later.

functional allocation of the Estimates of Expenditure. The traditional Estimates before you show how the total expenditure of R70 583 000 is divided amongst the seven departmental Votes. The functional allocation is, by way of contrast, a distribution of the selfsame amount over the seven national goals or aims into which all our efforts in the public sector are channelled. As such, it depicts the Government's overall spending pattern rather than what each department spends individually and is, for that reason, a more readily understood and accurate parameter of total development activity.

Functional Allocation of Estimates of Expenditure:

As has been done in the past two financial years, I shall now outline briefly to Honourable members the

The functional allocation is as follows:-

Share of Estimates (%)

Amount to be appropriated (R)

Aim

1974/75

1973/74

1 679 505

2,38

1,80

245 300

0,35

0,50

C. Employment and income creation

12 066 500

17,10

22,80

D. Development of human potential E. Provision of social services

18 988 435

26,90

25,70

22 113 784

31,33

28,30

A. Land planning and conservation B. Settlement of population

F.

Overhead administrative services

7 899 656

11,19

9,40

G.

Overhead capital services

7 589 820

10,75

11,50

70 583 000

100,00

Total

The pattern is simlar to that found in the other Homelands and developing countries in general. But that is not to say it is in all respects satisfactory. On the contrary one would prefer, for instance, to see proportionately greater spending on aims A (Land planning and conservation), B (Settlement of population), C (Employment and income creation) and G (Overhead capital services). These are the hard-core development programmes and, whilst aim D (Development of human potential), is vital and, indeed, complementary to C, its perennial growth is, as can plainly be seen, at the expense of the others and, particularly, of C itself. Similarly, the increased expenditure on aim E (Provision of social services) is unavoidable, essentially humanitarian and non-productive and also eats into money which could otherwise have gone to development pro-

other jobs which, in total, can mean many thousands more indirectly employed as a result of industrialisation) . Coupled to low agricultural productivity, which severely limits the potential of meaningful self-employment for farmers, the inevitable result is the "employment gap" or an excess of workseekers over jobs. This is the root cause of migratory labour with its attendant problems and evils. Whilst the figures I have quoted in the functional allocation of the Estimates may seem abstract, the harsh realities they symbolise can be seen, throughout the year, in the crowds of workseekers at all 26 Labour Bureaux in the Transkei.

The inference is obvious : Industrialisation and commercialisation , whether by governmental, corporate or private action, is not a cure-all. It is, in fact, a relatively slow and exceedingly expensive process to which public funds can be applied only in competition with the burgeoning demands of educational and welfare programmes .

grammes. Together, aims D and E account for very nearly 60% of our entire budget. The Government is thus spending ever more on educating, training and seeing to the health and social welfare of rapidly increasing numbers of people on whom, for that very reason, proportionately less of our limited resources can be devoted to give them jobs. This represents a drift towards the "welfare state" which my Government views with very real concern .

The pattern of governmental spending these facts distate is manifestly unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Enhanced personal prosperity will, for the vast majority of Transkeians have, therefore, to be sought, in the short and medium term, in more productive selfemployment on the land. In the long term, the improvement thus secured will have to be sustained by reducing the extremely high "male dependency factor" or the number of mouths each employed man must feed . And that, Mr Chairman and honourable members, means family planning.

It is true, of course, that income and employment creation is not the sole responsibility of the Government. The private sector and the Xhosa Development Corporation also have a rôle to play. But the sobering fact is that the Corporation, for one, has, according to its latest annual report (the eighth), created jobs for only 8 259 Blacks in both the Ciskei and Transkei between 1967 and 1973. With an estimated 16 000 young Transkeian males (not to mention females) entering the labour market annually, the employment situation within the Transkei is obviously not satisfactory. That is even allowing for the so-called "multiplier effect” (or each industrial job, by its very existence, creating several

Only too well does the Government realise that this is — if you will pardon the expression - a bitter pill to swallow but there is no other way. The entire developing world has had to face up to this fact. Eventually, so will the Transkei.

That is the most important single message of the functional allocation of Estimates of Expenditure. It is there for all to read. It is, I know, not so easily translated into action acceptable to the people. I look 46

to you, their leaders, for guidance in this delicate matter. I turn now to -

This is not to say the Republic will no longer be prepared to help us balance our budget ― indeed we have every confidence that friendly assistance by way of grants and loans will continue - but self-help and a willingness to cut our suit according to the cloth we ourselves have available will surely have to be more in evidence. Just as a young man leaving the shelter of his father's house to seek his fortune must expect to have to pay his own way, so must the Transkei be prepared to shoulder a greater tax burden when independence comes.

THE ESTIMATE OF REVENUE TO BE RECEIVED DURING THE YEAR ENDING 31 MARCH 1975 Taxation: Mr Chairman and honourable members, in dealing, earlier on in my speech, with the effects of inflation on an already expanding budget, I said I would return to the favourable position of the Transkeian taxpayer. As you know, general tax of a fixed amount (R2,50 per annum) is paid by all males 18 years of age and older. Additional general Tax is paid, on a sliding scale, by all citizens (irrespective of sex, age or place of residence), in receipt of a taxable income exceeding R360 per annum. Local tax is payable by the head of a household at the rate of R1 for every dwelling he and his or her family occupy, up to a maximum of R4 per annum . Finally, all citizens liable for local tax also pay a general levy of R1 per year. Irrespective of prevailing economic conditions, the state of the Transkeian Revenue Fund and the dictates of rising public expediture, the personal tax base I have just outlined remains the same from one year to the next. The only way in which the Government can increase its revenue from this source is by eliminating or reducing the extent of tax evasion - through accurate and speedy assessment of provisional taxpayers and intensified all-round tax collection. But neither of these measures constitutes heavier taxation as such.

Estimated Revenue: The following, Mr Chairman and honourable members, is the estimated revenue for 1974/75 from which I propose defraying the R70 583 000 needed under the Estimates of Expenditure :Starting balance: As at 31 March 1974 an accumulated credit balance of R5 048 000 is expected to be in the Transkeian Revenue Fund. This disturbingly large unspent residue represents 8,89% of the funds (R56 796 000) voted for 1973/1974. It is more than double the starting balance on 1 April 1973 and is due, in the main, to (a) the inability of departments and contractors to commence certain expensive services and to keep to schedule or complete others because of shortages of skilled labour, low productivity and an unusually rainy year; (b) vacancies on the authorised establishments of departments leading to considerable savings in terms of unpaid salaries and wages,

The Transkeian taxpayer is, irrespective of where he (or she) lives, consequently in the fortunate position of having to pay more additional general tax only if his personal income rises and of escaping any extra burden under annually fluctuating rates of taxation based on increased governmental expenditure. Because of this, any shortfall between the Transkeian Government's own sources of Revenue (see Part I of the Estimate of Revenue at page 74) and its proposed expenditure must be made up from three sources :

(c) non-execution, by suppliers, of large orders of motor vehicles, heavy road-building machinery and other plant. The R5 048 000 will be carried forward to the 1974/ 1975 financial year as a starting balance. Own Revenue (Part I of the Estimate at page 74): The following are the most important changes as compared to 1973/1974:-

Firstly: A fortuitous and largely unpredictable credit balance at the start of a new financial year.

(a) General tax: Up to R936 000 due to increased collections in both the Transkei and Republic based on higher earnings of individual taxpayers.

Secondly: The grant to be made to the Transkeian Revenue Fund from the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Republic in terms of Section 52(1)(c) of the Transkei Constitution Act 48 of 1963. Part II(1) of the Estimate of Revenue at page 74 refers.

(b) Forest Revenue: Up R307 000. The difficulties in regard to pulpwood from Umzimkulu which caused losses last year have been overcome and the market for sawn timber and treated poles has also improved .

Thirdly: The additional sum appropriated by the Republican Parliament in terms of Section 52(1)(d) of the Constitution for the due performance by the Transkeian Government of its constitutional functions. Part II(2) of the Estimate of Revenue at page 74 refers. This brings me to the important point I wish to make: Namely that the proposed independence of the Transkei will, of necessity, lead to a review of the financial relations between the Republic and the new State. It is reasonable to assume that the Transkei will be granted a fair share of the assorted customs and excise duties and sales tax on goods used/consumed within its borders. This will reduce our direct dependence on the Republic but a quid pro quo may well be that internal taxation of persons and companies be related more directly to the fluctuating state of the economy and needs of the public sector. Put bluntly, if, after independence, the Transkeian Government proposes ambitious and expensive public works, Transkeian taxpayers will, like those of the Republic and other independent countries , have to foot the bill (including the repayment of loans).

(c) Interest: Up R230 000. There was a substantial underestimation last year, considerably higher interest rates are currently offered and more funds are expected to be available for investment in the coming year. At a total of R10 714 000 the nett increase in own revenue is R1 572 300 ( 17,07% higher than in 1973/ 74). Grant in terms of Section 52(1)(c) of the Constitution (Part II(1) of the Estimate at page 74 Down by R1 240 000 (6,9%) from R17 808 000 to R16 568 000 as a result of technical adjustments. Additional sum to be appropriated by Republican Parliament in terms of Section 52(1) (d) of the Constitution (Part II (2) of the Estimate at page 74) Up by R10973 000 (39,6%) from R27 591 000 to R38 564 000. This is the crux of the entire budget. If the Republican Parliament had not, each year for ele-

95*

22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27.

ven years been prepared to appropriate rapidly increasing amounts under this heading, the Transkeian Government would have had either severely to prune virtually all the development programmes or, as I warned earlier on, to impose much heavier burdens on the Transkeian taxpayer. And 1974/1975 is, as can be seen, no exception. We are, Mr. Chairman, aware of our good fortune and I wish, as in the past, publicly to thank Parliament in Cape Town for this perennial help to which no strings are, or ever have been, attached.

CHAIRMAN: I presume that the Chief Minister was giving notice of motion. CHIEF MINISTER : No, not a notice of motion. I moved. This is a matter to be resolved immediately. I cannot make this a matter for debate at all. As a matter of fact, as Chief Minister I could appoint this committee but I am just giving the House the opportunity to appoint the committee. I hope you will ignore the hon. member for Engcobo. Mr MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman •

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr Chairman, CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I wish to draw the attention of the House to rule 130 of the rules of proIcedure of this House in terms of which after the motion for the second reading of an appropriation bill has been proposed the debate thereon shall be adjourned and resumed again not earlier than the following day. In the premises, therefore, I wish to inquire from the hon. the Chief Minister whether or not he will move an adjournment until tomorrow morning or whether he will proceed with the next motion. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that this House adjourns until tomorrow morning. Agreed to .

CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, in the premises there. fore I suggest that the hon, the Chief Minister move the waiving of the rules. CHIEF MINISTER: I do so, Mr Chairman. I propose the waiving of the rules so that the matter can be settled immediately. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree? Mr MGUDLWA: No. At this stage I wonder if the hon. the Chief Minister is aware of the motion that is (c) of his motion which has been carried by this House. He moves in (c) that a recess committee consisting of 26 members of this House with the Chief Minister as Chairman and 27th member be appointed by this House - "this House". Which is "this House"? Is he "this House"? (Interjections)

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 28 March 1974. THURSDAY, 28th MARCH, 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. APPOINTMENT OF RECESS COMMITTEE

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is what is happening. Mr. MGUDLWA: Is the Chief Minister this House, or are the members this House?

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move: That the following members of this House be appointed to the Recess Committee proposed in Motion No. 2:-

Bizana Butterworth Elliotdale Engcobo Flagstaff Idutywa Kentane Libode Lusikisiki Matatiele Mount Ayliff Mount Fletcher Mount Frere Mqanduli Ngqeleni Nqamakwe Port St. Johns Qumbu St. Marks Tabankulu Tsolo

-

-

-

A. N. Jonas A. B. Mtirara P. Jozana Moses Dumalisle T. E. Ka-Tshunungwa

Mr Finiza, clerk in the Chief Minister's Department, to be the recording secretary. I also move that the Chief Minister should have power to co-opt one or two members who may be left out because of their special knowledge on constitutional matters, but that these co-opted members have no right to vote on matters decided by the committee. In this respect I propose the names of Mr Ramsay Madikizela and Rev G. T. Vika Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman ·

The Estimate of Revenue (as printed) totals, therefore, R65 846 000 which, when added to the starting balance of R5 048 000 explained earlier, yields R70 894 000. This exceeds by R311 000(0,43%) the Estimates of Expenditure. I am thus budgeting for an insignificant surplus. I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Honourable members, for your attention and I move that the Appropriation Bill, 1974 be read a second time.

1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21.

Tsomo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale Xalanga Chief Minister, Chairman,

CHIEF MINISTER: I have moved the names. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I hope you will not listen to this quack, The hon. the Chief Minister is doing exactly what was sought in the motion - namely, that this House would appoint a recess committee. Now, the hon. Chief Minister is moving that these members be appointed by this House. I do not know what this hon. member wants.

E. Dyarvane W. S. Mbanga Popo Pakamile G. G. Kutu G. S. Ndabankulu W. Sipuka H. D. Mlonyeni Tutor Ndamase Stella Sigcau J. D. Moshesh C. M. C. Ndamse H. H. Zibi C. Dabula K. M. N. Guzana D. D. P. Ndamase E. Dekeda B. P. Vapi S. S. Majeke G. M. Matanzima C. Diko Z. M. Mabandla

CHIEF MINISTER : He is out of order, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: So we will pass on. CHIEF MINISTER: If any member says one member should be taken out of this committee he can do so. I do not think we have finished this motion. It must be approved . If the hon. member for Engcobo says one of their members should go out and another come in, he may do so. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, our aim was that we in the Democratic Party should elect our own members to that recess committee. The electorate elected Mr Mgudlwa. 96

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. (General disorder) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. I will put the motion. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member please leave. The name of Mr L. L. Mgudlwa has been moved and seconded as a member of the recess committee. CHIEF MINISTER : In that case I move the name of Chief Dalasile .

CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Take your seat. I take it that the Minister has moved and it was seconded and the House agreed.

Mr K. N. GUZANA: No, if I may correct you, Sir. The position is that the hon. the Chief Minister moved a waiver of the rules so that this motion should be considered immediately. The House agreed to the waiver of the rules. Now, the members of the committee are a matter for decision by this House. That has not yet been done. Amendments to this list can be made by members making suggestions for substitutions. That is, I think the stage at which we are now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And further Mr Chairman, to elucidate the position and to educate these illiterates who come to this House knowing nothing, if the hon, member, Mr Mgudlwa, was elected or recommended by the people of Engcobo it is for those people to say that the name of the hon. Mr Kutu should be erased and that the name of Mr Mgudlwa should be substituted therefor. Of course, that will depend on the vote of this House whether the hon. Mr Mgudlwa will be in the recess committee or not, because the members have got to be elected by this House. And the hon. Mr Mgudlwa, if he is complaining about the name of the hon. Mr Guzana being included here and his name left out, he should move that his name be substituted for that of Mr Guzana and that will be subject to approval by this House again. It is an erroneous statement to say that the hon. the Chief Minister has appointed or elected these men for the House. (Interjections) I am not going to interpret any motion for fools.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon, members, may I request this House to cool down to sanity. Two names have been proposed, one of which is sought to substitute for the hon. Mr G. G. Kutu. I would suggest that the proper thing to do now is to vote on these two names, and let us tone down and cut out emotionalism about the matter.

CHAIRMAN : I will now put the question: Those in favour of Chief Dalisile to say "yes" and those in favour of Mr Mgudlwa to say "Yes". Mr GUZANA: Probably in the emotional upset Mr Chairman, we have lost direction. The name will be put and the members asked : Those in favour; those against. And then the other member's name is put. CHAIRMAN : Those in favour of Chief Dalisile say "Yes". Mr H. H. ZIBI : Was it going to be the hon. Mr Kutu as against the hon. Mr Mgudlwa? CHIEF MINISTER : No, he is standing down. He does not want to be on the committee. CHAIRMAN : Those in favour of Mr L. L. Mgudlwa say "Yes". Motion negatived.

Mr H. H. ZIBI : What is the attitude of the House where perhaps a member from a district wishes to stand down in favour of another member from the same district?

CHAIRMAN: The "Noes" have it, so Chief Dalasile is elected to the committee.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I think the correct procedure would be for that hon. member to stand up and say so and the House will make a substitute. He will not say: I am standing down in favour of So-and-so. He cannot say that.

Mr. P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I want to make this clear, that the hon. Chief Dalasile does not represent the people. He is a nominated member. (Interjections) In this recess committee we must have people elected by the electorate. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the motion has been moved with one amendment in the name of Chief Dalasile.

CHAIRMAN: In the premises, therefore, hon. members, I will pass on to the next item. CHIEF MINISTER : No, it is not yet agreed . It must be put to the House. CHAIRMAN : Hon, members, the names read out by the hon, the Chief Minister were put to the House for election into the committee suggested. Now I put the names of the members suggested by the hon, the Chief Minister to the House. Is there any seconder? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I wish to say that we on this side of the House will not entertain members elected for us to join the recess committee. I repeat that this side of the House wants to get members of their own choice on to this recess committee. I propose the name of Mr L. L. Mgudlwa.

Motion as amended put and agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL: SECOND READING CHAIRMAN: I shall ask if the hon, the Leader of the Opposition has anything to say. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I always have something to say, Sir, and it would be a failure on my part were I not to say Yea or Nay. Whilst the budget shows an increase in the amount estimated for the year 1974/75 I think this cannot be interpreted as a growth which justifies any constitutional change in the Transkei. Whatever must be said of constitutional development, inflation rather tends to reduce this amount by about 20% to 25% if we have to take into account the real value of money in South Africa and elsewhere. The rand may well be at the moment in actual purchasing power about as much as 75c., if not less, and my general comment on the increase in the amount available in this financial year is that the increase merely catches up with inflation which is bedevilling the whole world, including the Transkei and the Republic. How can we catch at inflation and say, then9 it is the impetus to independence? If anything, at this stage we ought to be more

CHAIRMAN: In the place of Mr Kutu? Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman, when we met in our caucus it was I who moved the name of Mr L. L. Mgudlwa. Mr A. S. XOBOLOLO : I second, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER: I will put another in place of Mgudlwa. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, that hon. member cannot make a remark like that sitting down and I move that that member be censured and be sent away from this House for ten days.

97

cautious about growing bigger and rather seek to consolidate our position financially. When one looks at the increases in the amount of expenditure in respect of each vote one is struck by the very low increase of 9,19 % in respect of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. This, to my mind, seems to be a failure to realise the importance of agriculture in the Transkei. Our most important visible asset at the present moment is the land. It is the high rainfall we have; it is the abundance of labour in the Transkei ; and one would have thought that in allocating funds more would have been given to this department in order to exploit this primary and important asset, economically speaking. If we produced more mealies, if we produced more kaffircorn we would have milling centres in the Transkei. If we produced more vegetables we would have vegetablecanning factories in the Transkei. If we produced more fruit we would have fruit-canning factories in the Transkei. If we produced more prime beef we would have meat-canning factories in the Transkei. We might even cater for our Afrikaans-speaking population by making Boerwors for them in the Transkei . (Laughter) My point is that here is an asset for which we need pay no-one to have it and here we are doing very little for it by way of development. Probably in terms of figures one might say that the increase in the estimate for the Agricultural Department is quite substantial, but the point is that so little has been done in this direction that the Government would be justified in making available more money in order to give impetus to the exploitation of this natural asset on which we have turned our backs for the last ten years. The tea factory has been established as a result of the exploitation of the land in Lambasi . We have a furniture factory which exploits the raw material derived from our forests. We are making bags from phormium tenax which is grown in the Transkei. What possibilities are we ignoring by not giving sufficient impetus to agriculture. in the manner in which we have done here? Let me say that the Lubisi irrigation scheme, the Ncora irrigation scheme all these look nice and pretty, but when we get down to brass tacks are we really using the soil properly in the Transkei? I raise this point because I feel in our estimates we must reflect a readiness to exploit this asset and an awareness of its potentialities. Agriculture can provide the raw material for many of the primary industries which will provide job opportunities for the people of the Transkei, and our information officers can have something to tell the visitor that indeed we are becoming awake, we are becoming committed, we have taken off our jackets to use this asset. Then we must be careful that when we speak of an Information Department for the Transkei we do not have that department as an extension of the political party in power. An Information Department should be above politics, but how often are they used for political ends by the party in power. The two ― service to the Government and service to the party in power ― must be distinguished one from the other. One begins to wonder whether or not the Government has prepared itself for this Department of Information ; whether or not there have been men handpicked who will go into that department and be a credit not only to the department but to the Transkei as a whole. I for one would lay down a very, very high standard of education, intelli-

disgrace to the Government. They must know the history of the Transkei ; they must know topical events in the Transkei; they must know what places are of import. ance in the Transkei ; they must know about the constitutional development of the Transkei; they must be able to put forward a programme of development for the Transkei. It would be a great pity if these men were to be mini-minded persons without the stature and the dignity which should attach to this department because they are the mirror into which the visitor looks to see the face of the Transkei. I make these observations in order that we should not find ourselves ashamed of the personnel that will make up this department. The hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that a fur. ther six police stations will fall under the control of the Department of Justice. One is glad to ask the question as to whether or not the present police stations under the Department of Justice have justified their existence, for all law-abiding citizens want the police to protect them. It is the lawbreaker who does not want to see a policeman and I am afraid there has been very harsh criticism levelled against members of the Transkei police by the ordinary man in the street —- nay, the rural tribesman who has had his faith shattered altogether in the police force and its protective services. Why should people constantly say: I have had to bribe this man in order to get him to go out and investigate this case; I had to guarantee a very good meal for him before he would come out to my administrative area to investigate; I have had to make overtures financial and otherwise before obtaining what is of right due to me. May I with those remarks stress the importance of efficiency and service, rather than boast about the number of police stations that we control. I am glad to comment favourably on the increased vote under Education, but I am wondering whether or not the amount spent on education is not just a drop in the ocean, for the cry throughout the length and breadth of the Transkei is that our children are turned away from school because there is no accommodation; that there are not adequate teachers in the classroom to teach the pupils already in the classroom; that those teachers who are in the classroom cannot offer some subjects sought by the pupils who have come to be taught. This is a very sad state of affairs that after ten years we should still be faced with a high teacher. pupil ratio in the Transkei. In the circumstances, thought of compulsory education is just so much trash. I do hope that when the hon. the Minister of Education deals with his vote he shall spell out a definite programme for the training of teachers and for an increasing number of trained teachers. The other day I said children turned away from school comprise a generation that is lost to the Transkei. A child turned away from a Sub A class when he was six years of age in 1965 is now today 15 years of age and will no longer go back to school, and that is a lost generation, lost to education. Can we not do something positive under this head to see that those who want education and are hungering for education are catered for educationally? I see for instance, just to mention one thing, that bursaries to pupils have been reduced by R3 600. Is this not in effect an indication that we are not so concerned about helping those who cannot help themselves to get education? We may litter the Transkei with field workers, we may have A supervising B who, in turn, supervises C who in turn supervises D in the field staff of the Department of Education, but if we are going to make progress we must have the teacher in the classroom, and the good teacher in the class-

gence and conduct for men who go into that department. I would insist that they should serve a period of tutelage under the Department of Information for the Republic or a Department of Information elsewhere, so that they ripen into their responsibilities and do not become a

98

for our labourers being fixed at R2 per day. It is my view that the Finance Minister has taken note of that and is struggling rather ineffectually to the attainment of that goal, because now we have really half of what this House laid down as the minimum. The people of the Transkei will be grateful for that move, anyway. Now, we look at the functional allocation of funds and if we look at page 11 of the speech of the Finance Minister we have got percentages worked out in respect of the seven points of growth which are of importance and are the basis of development in an under-developed country. One would have liked to see each item showing an increase in the allocation of funds. One would have liked to see a phenomenal development under Item D - Development of Human Potential - and when I speak to that point I am not speaking of the man who will seek the white-collar job. I want the agriculturist who is an expert in his job; I want a carpenter who is good at his cabinet work; I want a bricklayer who will guarantee his job. How often do I long for the man who will sweep the room clean and not despise the fact that he has got to sweep a room. The small rise, therefore of 1,2% under Development of Human Potential gives me considerable concern. Under C Employment and Income Creation - again there we have the unfortunate drop from 22,8% to 17,1 %. This should not be allowed to happen, because we want to grow in all directions. I notice there is an increase in the expenditure under Item E and this relates particularly, I think, to social benefits. I think here we would need to apply ourselves objectively and look at this subject without emotion because, Mr Minister of Finance, the Government is spending a lot of money on disability grants, social benefits, etc. I have dispassionately observed some of the people who have come in at the end of two months to receive their benefits and have wondered whether or not we are condoning a state of affairs where people think they should continue to be disabled in order to keep on drawing these benefits. You get a man with a disabled leg receiving money and not doing anything to help himself and no effort is made by the Department of the Interior to tell this man : You are receiving R12,50 - now what about buying beads and doing beadwork out of this R12,50 in order to sell that and increase your income by investing half the grant in some gainful means of employment? I was fascinated by my son the other day when he got inadvertently into his hands a ten cent piece. He, without my knowledge, bought multi-coloured beads and is making rings of multi-coloured beads which he is now selling at 15c. He has used his imagination to vary the colouring of these rings and he is commanding a fantastic market. This is the ' type of incentive which I think should be given to our people who have to come to the Government and receive a disability grant. Let the Government help them to help themselves, and in this way, by accumulating capital from an investment of the money they are given freely by the Government, they may become independent of a grant. We shall therefore, avoid the danger of degenerating - I say "degenerating" - into a welfare state. The fact that over a period of eight years the XDC has provided about 8 000 job opportunities for both the Transkei and Ciskei is something really to jolt us. We cannot just say it is obviously not satisfactory. I would say it is definitely alarming, because if there is going to be a population worthy to be taxed it must be a population that is earning income. But the XDC relies on a quota of finance available to it. What about our Government? I urge this Government to solve our juvenile

room. More often that not once a teacher is a good teacher he is promoted into the field staff and a secondgrade teacher is left in the classroom to do secondgrade work, and the very good teacher who is now an inspector comes into the classroom to inspect secondgrade work. I would rather have a stupid inspector than a stupid class-teacher. He cannot spoil the work of a good teacher, no matter how stupid he is, but the wise and intelligent inspector cannot make the stupid teacher effective in the classroom. We shall say more on this point when we deal specifically with the Department of Education vote. Lest I be taken for a man who speaks venom all the time, may I commend the improvement in the benefits under Vote 4. I am glad to note that the Government is going to increase its contribution towards the pension fund, and also the retirement benefits of our employees; and a benevolent award is some compensation for a man who has held a non-prescribed post all his lifetime. I am happy to note that at last this Government (probably now because we have a Department of Health) has decided to improve housing conditions for single people working at the Lambasi tea project. When I went down there without telling the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland (Laughter) and looked upon the hovels, the degrading quarters, almost looking dark under the shadow of a cliff dark even at midday - I turned away my eyes in shame. I am glad to note that this project to re-plan the single quarters of these 900-odd labourers is going to be a matter of priority, and very high priority too. The Department of Health has had an increase of R1 723 000 in its vote and one cannot over-emphasize the importance of the health of the people of the Transkei. A sick nation means a heavy liability on the Government of that nation and a Government which intends to cure its people spends more money than when it makes its programme one of preventitive measures. To my very simple mind I think a Government that embarks on preventive measures can do away with hospitals if there is nobody sick, if he is taught to keep himself fit before he falls sick, except for those who break their limbs and run mad. I would , therefore, like to see from the hon. the Minister of Health a programme which emphasizes preventive measures rather than curative measures, under the Department of Health. We need more doctors, we need more medical officers, we need more nurses, we need more health educators we need more people who will go about and among the kraals in the administrative areas to say "Thou shalt not", so that they do not fall sick. Whilst the doctors in the Transkei have formed an association which makes available medical bursaries, we feel that this Government ought to do something in that direction. This is no responsibility which we can shirk, for our lives are surrounded by germs, by epidemics, by disease, by infection, and we cannot survive unless we give priority to training people who will keep us healthy all the time. The result of a neglect of our health is reflected in the amount of money that is being earmarked under the Department of the Interior for social benefits, disability grants and what have you. Once a man has been admitted as a TB patient and is cured, he thinks he is now incapable of working and must go to the magistrate and ask for a disability when he is cured! I do stress mobility of grant health services in the Transkei. Under "General", the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated an increase in the wages of labourers. This is a very good sign, but we are like Oliver Twist who always asks for more, and last year this House agreed to a minimum wage

99

Opposition. He said the increase in the budget is just catching up with inflation, and he goes on to say that the agricultural vote should be increased because it is very small. Now, I should like to pose the question: Is it not true that there are some services in this budget which were not being performed by the Transkei Government which are now under the Transkei? As far as inflation in the agricultural vote is concerned, does the hon. the Leader of the Opposition think that we have to increase the money to enable the average landowner in the Transkei to produce more on his land? In other words, have we to increase our budget in order to make people work on their lands ? My question cannot be answered by him. He has mentioned Lubisi and Ncora dams and asked if we are using those schemes properly. Here we have used a great deal of money but he admits that the soil there is not being used profitably. Mr GUZANA : R12 million has been invested there and the income last year was R70 000. What do you make of that?

delinquency, to solve our growing crime problem, to set up or mark out agricultural farms in the various districts and clear the towns of these loafers, get them on to the land, produce something from the land and thus be gainfully employed. Every time you have somebody not employed you may be sure that some. body else is carrying that person because he still eats his three meals a day, he still has a place to sleep, he still has means to clothe himself. Someone is carrying him somewhere. Let us get our people to look after themselves, and I put this proposition of big farms as something which might help us to solve this problem and get our people to earn an income so that we can tax them. Mr Chairman, I can talk at great length on this subject which is really the sinews, the blood-vessels of a living people, and since we have notions about constitutional changes let us make a visible effort to justify any change that might come; and let Government members not misunderstand me, for my view is that we have still a long way to go to Utopia. My views on independence are known clearly by this House, but I cannot let this Government play the fool and let us starve in this place and not do something positive to improve the economic position of the black man in the Transkei. More than anything else we must cultivate a sense of responsibility, a sense of direction, a sense of belonging and a sense of productivity if we are going to be anything like human beings. It helps me nothing to buy a suit and present a beautiful and well-brushed figure at the United Nations when I leave my wife and children to feed on mealies. An excuse is given here for the failure of some of the contractors to do their work and this is the reason why so much money has returned to the Treasury. I do hope that when contractors contract with the Government there are penalty clauses in these contracts, otherwise any excuse will be given when they fail to complete work within the allotted time. I do feel that this is an important matter into which this Government could cast a very watchful eye. Lastly, let me say that whatever views we have on taxation we must be careful never to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. We may be over-enthusiastic about raising the revenue drawn from the people of the Transkei and not realise that we can go thus far and no further in taxing the inhabitants of the Transkei. I think in that direction the old African adage "Hamba kahle" is very, very wise. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Rev VIKA: What I am saying is that a lot of money has been used in the building of dams but now we do not want money for these schemes We want human beings to work the land. In so far as the saying that if we used preventive measures in the Health Department we could do away with hospitals, I think this is more than wishful thinking. Countries like Britain, the USA and others should have done away long ago with hospitals because I think they are more advanced than the Transkei, Now, coming to my own observations, I think we have to be thankful that we have at this time been presented with such a detailed budget. This has been the longest and most clear of any during the last ten years. Perhaps we get the reason for it in the first line of the budget speech, in spite of the hon. member's doubts about this :- "This year the Transkei embarks in all earnest on the last lap of its long road to independence." I think if there is anything the average person watches it is where his money goes to - that is, in connection with moneys paid to the Government by way of taxes. With this budget speech it will be easy for many of the hon. members here to explain how their moneys are being used. But to handle the State being no excepfunds for any organization tion ― you find the problem that those people concerned always play ignorant about whether they have enough money in the coffers or not. We have had evidence in this House already where people demand quite a lot more services than can be provided by the Government within the money they are able to receive from the people.

Rev G. T. VIKA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in spite of the Opposition criticisms I stand up to support the budget speech. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition seems to have his mind geared to criticizing everything the Government does.

Another problem for those who handle public moneys is that they are expected to do the impossible. For instance, if the hon. the Minister of Finance budgets for a deficit people will say he is extravagant and wasting their money, and if he budgets for a surplus they say he should have done this or that more, especially when in a House like this you have people who still wish to get increased allowances. Another difficulty the Treasury is always faced with is that though in the Legislative Assembly we do agree that certain services should be performed and certain taxes collected, it becomes the duty of the sole man in charge of that particular department to see that the taxes are collected . I think it has been indicated in the budget speech that there is a lot of tax evasion in the Transkei. We are happy, however, to note that against all these odds the hon. the Minister of Finance has been able to give increased salaries and wages to the government

Mr GUZANA: I would be failing in my duty if I did not do that. Rev VIKA: It is unfortunate that you criticize everything, because some people with simple minds do believe what you say. They think he is always serious and they do not realise he is sometimes criticizing simply for the sake of criticizing and performing his duty. You will forgive me if you have heard this one before, but the hon. the Leader of the Opposition reminds me of a reverend gentleman who was to take a service, but just before he left his house he quarrelled with his wife. He was to announce a hymn which starts with the words "War, war, there is strife in the world", but because of the quarrel with his wife he announced the "" hymn as "Wife, wife, there is strife • (Laughter) Before coming to the budget speech I wish to reply to some of the criticisms of the hon. the Leader of the

100

these services. Here in the Transkei we have a long programme of work to be done. For instance, school buildings are dilapidated and should be replaced as soon as possible. When there is a surplus of about R5 million, it makes us believe that everything has been done and all is well. However, our roads are in a bad state of repair and should be attended to. I make these remarks with reference to the amount of R5 million surplus which could have been used for other purposes. The Cabinet should devise ways and means of using money that is lying idle. This has become customary here in the Transkei. I would also mention the funds of the various authorities. There are sums of money which are always returned to the Treasury because they have not been used by the tribal authorities for the purpose for which they were allocated. They must take note of this and the people should be encouraged to use the money for the purpose for which it was intended . The hon. the Minister of Finance has also mentioned the grants we received from the Republican Government. As we are now moving towards complete independence we should take meticulous care of these things. It is evident that in most cases we are supported financially by the Republic. A man who supports his family always has the last word to say. By that I mean that we are sustained by the Republican Government and therefore the Republican Government always has the right to direct our affairs. This means that if I leave someone

employees and increased social benefits to the needy. One aspect we must appreciate in the budget speech is that the hon. Minister has warned us. We have been told the dangers to expect and we have been told that we get quite a lot of money from the Republican Government. We have been appraised of the fact that if our independent Government comes up with ambitious schemes the people of the Transkei would have to foot the bill themselves. This is what I call frank. We have been told what we are capable of doing and what we cannot do. Mr Chairman, for obvious reasons I have no comment about the subject of family planning. (Laughter) I now come to the point of friendship with the Republican Government. The hon. the Chief Minister should be thanked for keeping the ties with the Republican Government. Even if we would think of joining the United Nations after independence it would be folly if, by doing that, we threw away or pocketed our friendship with our neighbours, the South African Government. Even in the African custom, if there is trouble in a home it is the neighbours who are first consulted. Even the relatives who live far away ask the neighbours what the position is. Mr Chairman, I do not think it can be over-emphasized that state Governments rise and fall depending upon how they handle the finances of the state. If you trace the course of the coups that have taken place in some of the countries you will find they started usually with the mishandling of the finances of that state. We are happy that for the last ten years we have not had any reason to complain that our moneys have been mishandled. In other words, one would say money is the blood in the life of any government. Blood circulation is the essence in the system of any human being. The budget determines the circulation of this bloodstream in our country and that is why we take seriously the budget speech. Mr Chairman, before I sit down I want to sound a warning. In any organisation or big meeting you attend, when it comes to finances you find that only one or two people are able to understand what is being discussed. I would therefore ask the hon. members who do not understand finance please not to waste the time of the House in discussing the budget. (Laughter) On this happy note I shall close my address .

to look after my home, that man will always have the deceiding word. So much so that even if I do not see eye to eye with his suggestions, nevertheless I just have to listen to him. Everyone in this Chamber knows that. In regard to taxation it is necessary for the people to be educated and to know exactly what taxation means. The majority of Transkeians do not know why they are made to pay taxes. It is very important for the people to know exactly why they pay taxes and that they do not pay taxes just because they are required to do so. It is the responsibility of our leaders to explain this fully to the electorate. My opinion is that the necessity to pay taxes should be explained even to the schoolchildren so that they should know exactly what it means. The hon. the Minister of Finance has explained the agricultural economy but it is a pity to notice that the people of the Transkei are still very backward, agriculturally speaking. The land is not properly utilized. That causes people to remain poor. Amongst other reasons for this failure is that the people have not sufficient capital to enable them to cultivate their lands properly. If you have no capital you cannot undertake any project. Another reason which causes our people to lack interest in agriculture is that the arable land extent is only two morgen. Two morgen

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the second reading of the Appropriation Bill was resumed. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I rise up to discuss the budget speech and in so doing I shall pick out a few points to refer to. I shall be happy if the House will not misinterpret me as the hon. member, Rev Vika, has done. The hon. the Minister of Finance in his budget speech has made it clear to us that he has set aside the sum of R70 million for the services of the Transkei during the ensuing year. He also explained to us that this amount exceeds that allocated during previous years. It is true that we Transkeians contribute to the Treasury only about R11 million and this makes it clear to us that the Republican Government has graciously given us a large amount as its grant-in-aid. We have been told that there is a surplus of R5 million which was not utilized, but we have not been told clearly why this money was not used. However, the hon. the Minister of Finance has given the reason and has said there has been some irregularity in that the contractors who contracted with the Government for certain services did not perform

in the Transkei cannot be sufficiently well cultivated to sustain the family properly. Furthermore, I think it is not right to expect everybody in the Transkei to be a farmer. This has never been the position in any country. People should always have varied occupations in order to assist each other. I know how difficult it is, because people rely on these small holdings. I would suggest that the Cabinet Ministers should seek ways and means of giving the efficient farmers sufficient land to cultivate profitably. I know that this change will not be an easy one, but if it has been discovered that things are not correct as they are, must we leave them as they are? There are no difficulties which cannot be overcome if people would meet together and discuss them and decide on a course of action. We notice that in the 26 towns of the Transkei

101

that a budget speech of this nature has been put before this House, more so when we note that there has been

you will find hundreds of workseekers waiting for permits to go to work in the Republic. If there are, say, 500 people waiting for employment in a certain town it may happen that only 50 of them are taken. That is a dire predicament and the Government should find ways and means of overcoming their difficulties . Every day people go up and down looking for work. It sometimes takes three or four months before a person is able to find employment. This should be given close attention. The hon. the Minister of Finance has also

an increase in pay in nearly all departments. I appreciate the fact that the money budgeted for the Agricultural Department has been increased, as well as that for the Education Department. We know, Mr Chairman, that these are the most important departments as far as most people are concerned . The standard of education is being raised today and this twelve-year structure has been introduced. I am quite aware that this scheme will entail a lot of expenditure for the construction of new schools. We know that previously we were in difficulty as far as the schools were concerned. I support the hon. the Minister of Finance when he namely, that it is gives a reason for this surplus caused by contractors not fulfilling their contracts. I think this money could have been utilized in my area of Xalanga, but there was this obstacle. We are also grateful that money has been set aside for an increase in the salaries of teachers. Something that is not quite right in the Transkei is that their salaries are not on a par with other areas. You will find they compare salaries with people from other parts. When I was visiting a doctor in the Ciskei I asked him why he did not come to the Transkei and he said the salary situation should be adjusted first. I said the question of money could be dealt with overnight. We see that those teachers who were running away from us are now coming back because of the salary adjustment. It is therefore a good thing that this has been done in order to convince these teachers. We are also pleased to note an increase in the vote for Roads and Works. It would appear as though the Government had experienced difficulty on account of the bad roads in the districts. We are now sure that even the other countries which looked upon us as though we were babies are now beginning to realise we are grown-up men. I am sure when a man is recognised as a man that person should have sufficient money.

mentioned family planning. We Africans cannot accept that. We take it that you are taking steps which are beyond the jurisdiction of the tribal authorities. Even if you plan your family, how can you foresee the limitations of your progeny? (Laughter) That is not our business . We should leave that to the Creator. Other countries are overflowing with their populations. In those countries their governments assist the people towards productivity. Youths who have nothing to do can be employed here in the Transkei to do some useful work. The hon. the Minister of Finance has also mentioned that our young men will be recruited into military training. That is a very good idea, but there are other avenues in which they could be employed and made useful and productive. It is our fault because we do not try to open up opportunities for these young men so that they can be usefully employed. Look at China and Japan where the population is very large, but those people are all employed and conditions have been made easy for them because they can produce from their lands. There are no idle people left there. Mr Chairman, the Ncora and Lubisi dams have also been mentioned. Those projects are very important and what should be done now is to teach people to be productive. Those allotments should not be allocated to people who are not interested. With reference to the Health Department, the hon. Minister mentioned that there has been an increase in the vote for that department. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned this very important item and amongst other things he said the department should try to concentrate on preventive, rather than curative measures. To give an example, let me mention the Scourge of TB. TB is prevalent all over the Transkei. We have a hospital at Sulenkama in Qumbu district and there are many TB sufferers there. We find a very undesirable practice there of people who are only half cured going out to mix with the people in the administrative areas who are free of TB . That situation is not necessary and it should be attended to by health educators who should do everything possible to stop this practice. We have health educators but they are very few in number and cannot cope adequately with the work. I was going to suggest that the health educators must be increased. You must know, hon. members, that this is very important here in the Transkei. There are other infectious diseases which I need not mention, and patients suffering from these diseases should also be kept apart and not allowed to mix with the public. It is therefore very important that the Health Department should concentrate on preventive instead of on curative measures. Mr M. J. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with this bill which has been piloted by the hon. the Minister of Finance. The question of finance is the most important one to be discussed. It used to surprise me when a budget speech was delivered that all the white people turned on their radios to listen. I have now discovered that the essence of any government is finance. We are more than pleased today, as we approach independence,

Mr Chairman, when we return home we will take pride in knowing that our money is being looked after as far as the Transkei is concerned . We are always thankful for the establishment of the information service in the Transkei and we accordingly realise the progress that has been made in the Transkei. Let us not forget to thank the Republican Government for its support in giving us this department. We wish that our thanks should be conveyed to the hon. Minister. We also wish to thank the Government for the money to be spent on the Xhosa Language Bureau and we believe that this bureau will be of great benefit to the people of the Transkei. On account of this bureau people who could not write their names are now able to read and write. We hope for the success of the adult education programme under the Department of Education. I used to be very sorry to hear of the condition in which the labourers lived at Lambasi, particularly when I realised that the people's health depends on the accommodation they have. The present day requires good accommodation for all people. It pleases us more to learn that this money will also be used for the building of classrooms because we are meeting a difficulty so far as that is concerned. We admire the fact that those labourers who work on the roads have been given a rise in their pay. However, we would ask that they should not be forgotten from time to time and that their pay should be increased regularly. Again, it is desirable that as far as the headmen are concerned they should also be allotted something. Their stipends are very meagre and the

102

not even get a recess allowance, particularly the elected members, because they have to travel around and hold report-back meetings. We are not sure of what the tribal funds are meant for because we do not know how they are used. Whenever you write to the tribal authorities for money for something to be done you hardly ever get a reply from them. I have never seen any money from my tribal authority in my area. (Interjections) We have constantly appealed to them to repair the roads and they never do that The tribal authorities are always given money but they do not want to use that for the locations. The money must be used properly to repair our roads. We do not want to hear anything about surpluses. What are these surpluses for? We get the vote here for the tribal authority and those tribal authorities do not use the money. Our roads are in a bad state of repair and they are never repaired. I believe this money is used extravagantly elsewhere. (Laughter) We implore the Government to try to see that this money is used properly. In my region moneys have been collected to put up schools and these moneys have never been used. (Interjections) We expect to find out whether the Government gives us this grant to put up school buildings . We had the Holomisa secondary school at Mqanduli and a school which was previously used by the Whites which has been handed over to us. We expected the Holomisa school to be extended . The tribal authorities correspond with the Education Department but they are never granted any money for their projects. I suggest that the Government should put up the schools seeing there is a lot of money available now. I want these schools to be put up immediately. (Laughter) We cannot use our roads because they are in such a bad state of repair. You can hardly go as far as Jixini because the roads are so bad, and yet there is such a lot of money available. We are told there is a Minister of Roads and Works and we request that these projects should be undertaken. I have asked this House that the gap in salaries should be narrowed. There are so many things to buy for our children. Our mothers sold fowls in order to get money to send their children to school, yet today we have such vast sums of money and nothing is done.

work they have to perform is very difficult. However, we do not intend that the money should all be paid out. Money is of great importance to all our workers because if people are employed and are paid a very low salary the people have a tendency to become dishonest. We hope this matter will be carried out on the lines indicated in the budget speech for the current year. Sir, my health does not permit me to talk at length and I will now resume my seat. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am also joining in this discussion and I am not going to be grateful for anything, but because the money voted by the hon. Minister is a large amount I shall have something to say. I am very grateful to the last speaker for mentioning the plight of the headmen. They perform their duties faithfully and diligently. They have their helpers who are commonly known as subheadmen and I suggest that the subheadmen should also be given an allowance. The counsellors who attend the courts should also be given something and I suggest that the hon. Minister discusses this with the chiefs. Those tribal counsellors receive nothing. (Interjections) Well, if they get something the counsellors in my district get nothing, and I put the blame on my chiefs that side. If the counsellors of other districts do get an allowance, in my area they get nothing and I put the blame on the shoulders of the chiefs over there. (Interjections) Giving money to people is very important in life because a starving man becomes dishonest. It has been suggested that the workers on the roads are not getting sufficient money. The gap is very wide and it should not be so because the man who is getting a lot of money does not realise that the other is starving. The majority of these people are not educated and they do not receive such high salaries as the teachers. These people working on the roads and in the plantations are always being told they are being given an increment but all they get is 20c. Can you really call that an increment for a man with five or six children? He has to educate them, feed them and use this money for all other purposes at home, and as you can see there is no food to be obtained from the land because there is always a drought. Clothing and schoolbooks are very expensive. Even the petrol for our cars is very expensive. (Laughter) Bus and taxi fares are very high and if you buy anything from the shops you have to pay tax on those things. People must be given sufficient wages. The budget this year reflects a huge amount and therefore people must get a good share in salaries from this money.

The hon. the Chief Minister always asks for money from Cape Town. He has applied for a grant from Cape Town so that we should have abundance. He has not asked for it so that we can play football. (Laughter) I have asked this House to consider increasing the allowances of the headmen. I am grateful for the increment that this House is giving to the teachers. They should get the same as the white teachers and there should be no difference . The stomach of the white and the black man is the same. (Laughter) If I wish to buy brandy when I leave this House I must use money. Some people must not enjoy drinking brandy and I must get very little money just because I work on the roads. Colour should not be considered when wages are paid. Members of parliament and the chiefs who are here should be well paid like their counterparts in the Republic. I want everything to be beneficial to the country and the Government must take cognizance of all the items I have mentioned and rectify these things . All these departments have been given extra funds to give to their workers. Mr M. N. MAKAULA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the statement made by the hon. the Minister of Finance. Money is the backbone of the country. We are aware that America is a country that boasts of its riches . It is a boastful

I am grateful that teachers have been given an increment and the other officers have also received an increment, but what is depressing is that these people who are earning high salaries do not take cognizance of those who earn very little. If the big boys who are in their battle array and are in the forefront of the battle take some spoils from the enemy they must not use that only for themselves but they must all share. (Laughter) A person who divides the spoils has to try to satisfy everybody there in distributing those spoils. He must not only satisfy his own stomach. The nation is groaning and when you read in the papers and notice that a certain class of people have been given increments, you begin to wonder why you have not also been given an increment. I cannot understand why the Ministers should get increments when the rest of the people are not given anything. (Laughter) Everybody should get an increment. We are all in the House here and we deserve an increase. You know very well that we are not even granted travelling allowances . We do 103

country and all the people in the world realise that it is because of its money. It is for that reason that they are able to send people up to the moon. The people of the Transkei are proud to see how this money has been used so beneficially. This is proved by the amount of money allocated in respect of the financial year 1973/74, the increase in that amount being R15 million. This was done by the son of Matanzima. During the financial year 1974/75 we have been promised an amount of R70 million and more. This is an indication of the progress which has been made.

out by the Government to take preventive measures against disease. That is an indication that the Government is doing its duty. If the Government was able to do so they would employ some doctors who would be able to fight against a disease which is brought to the people and which is called "mafufunyana" (schizophrenia). I am not going to talk at length but I say the Government is earnest in all its work. Mr W. C. SINGATA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am happy to have the opportunity to level some criticisms in regard to the budget, and also to ask some questions. The hon. Mr Sigwela has mentioned the twelve-year structure in education indicating that this will mean increased expenditure. He also mentioned a certain doctor who did not want to come to the Transkei because of the meagre salaries. He spoke too of the stipends paid to headmen. I would just like to ask if the headmen are contributing to a pension fund. If they are contributing to a pension fund, what is the state of their salaries? I further wish to point out that in regard to the erection of schools the people are poor and they cannot afford to build classrooms. The hon. the Minister of Finance has indicated that the Government will give R1 900 towards each classroom to be erected. As this House contemplates introducing compulsory education it would be fitting if this amount could be increased to R2 000 per classroom. The location to which I belong is very small and as we are compelled to erect some classrooms we had to tax every inhabitant to the extent of R8 towards the cost. Those people who tender for these buildings never quote less than R500 per classroom and that is why we ask the hon. the Minister of Finance to consider this request. We have also been informed that more police stations are to be transferred to the Department of Justice. I am just going to make a few remarks about this because I intend speaking about it when that particular vote is discussed. MINISTER OF FINANCE : But the Minister is not here so I cannot reply to you. Wait for his vote to come up.

Mr Chairman, the people say they cannot forget such a leader. It is for that reason that we press for independence. We pray the Almighty to keep this leader. We don't yet want a leader like Joshua, we want a leader like Moses. Coming to education, we are greatly interested in its progress, especially during this period of ten years up to this year of 1974. The Department of Education has been granted more than R13 million. Teachers and clerks have been given an increase in their salaries. As I hope you heard, they are getting this increase from 1st April. We are thankful to the hon. the Minister of Finance because these teachers and clerks were about to leave these departments to find posts in other departments because they were not satisfied with the salaries . We have noted that some of them want to come back because they can see physically that the teachers are now well off, because they are paid higher salaries. We see even here in Umtata some large buildings which previously were not there. If we travel around we notice that the roads are now being attended to by machinery but recently on account of the heavy rains the work has not been performed. Previously we did not see a great deal of machinery on the roads. This Government ordered quite a lot of this machinery in order to see that the roads are repaired. Coming to the teachers, I admire them very much because when a teacher has died or when a female teacher marries she is entitled to a pension while, on the other hand, those who work in the Cape do not receive anything when they die. We should be pleased about that and clap hands . I hear what is being said by the hon. members who say that this Government is doing nothing for the people, because the people are starving at present. The Government is doing its work but what the Government will not do is to go to a house where a man is not working and tell him to work. One hon. member who spoke here said we are in a difficulty because we have no money, but that those people who hold high positions make provision only for themselves. I have never seen it happen that a parent who is feeding with his children will give all the brisket meat to the children, because the time will come when the children grow up and they will then be entitled to feed on the brisket meat. We must be one unit and march together in order to make sure that this Government performs its duty properly.

Mr SINGATA: I am sorry, Mr Chairman. I will now mention the drivers of government vehicles in the Transkei . Would it not be wise if they could be promoted to Grade B so that when the time for their pension comes they will ... MINISTER OF HEALTH : Why not suggest that during the discussion on that vote? Mr SINGATA: This department is very important because if money is not available no progress can be achieved, and that is why we constantly make requests. Although we are very pleased with the increment which has been given to the teachers as well as to the labourers, we nevertheless feel that this increase is inadequate. Increments based on specific percentages leave a gap in salaries between different categories of employment, yet if these people were given increments according to their notches that would be reasonable. I must mention the question of taxation . We would like this House to take note of the fact that even the poorest of our people are obliged to pay tax. If you go to a butcher's shop .. MINISTER OF FINANCE: What has that to do with the budget speech? Mr SINGATA: I am sorry, I was just mentioning this in passing. We are pleased with the consideration given to the aged and infirm people who are also included in this budget. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, both whips of the parties have informed me

When I have visited the forests I have seen lorryloads of wood which has been grown by this Government. There are schools which have been improved by this Government, but the truth is that these schools cannot all be erected at once. It is also correct that the Government has money, but there is a shortage of builders and therefore the Government cannot be criticized because they have provided funds but there are no contractors to do the work. We should be thankful to the Government. Even as far as the Health Department is concerned I can stand up for that section and say that the people are being educated by officers sent 104

that the last speaker is the last speaker on the Opposition side and that I should reply at this stage. First of all, I wish to express my appreciation to all the hon. members of this House for the constructive way in which they have dealt with this important measure. As was indicated by one of the hon. members, it is indeed a very important item in any parliament where the House has got to sit down and consider the finances of the country. The existence of the services, the employment of the civil service, depends on a sound financial control. I do not think I am called upon to reply to any real criticisms on this bill. I have noted with a sense of gratitude the remarks which were made by practically every speaker who contributed to the debate. Now, with regard to the point raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on the functional allocations, I wish to point out that the various allocations have grown in relation to the 1973/74 budget. Now, the respective shares of the total estimate cannot all rise each year. There is, after all, one hundred per cent to share and no more.

this House representing that particular constituency. If you approach the Department of Education you will get the teachers, but don't tell the department you have got accomodation when you have not got it. With regard to the stress which was made on the Department of Agriculture as the most important department which should have had a big share of this budget, I would like to say that I think the amount which has been allocated to that department is big enough to meet the requirements of the Transkeian citizens. You will note that it is second to education. MR. GUZANA: In funds allocated?

Mr K. M. GUZANA: You can have a hundred per cent which is very small.

Mr GUZANA: No, I said it was being run at a loss. That is what worries us. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now, I want to assure the hon. members of this House that since last year the productivity in that scheme has risen by such a high figure that you will be amazed . Mr GUZANA: Give us the percentage.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes. Now, the trouble with the Department of Agriculture is that in spite of the attempts which are being made by that department to provide officers to instruct our people in the scientific methods of farming, we find that there are no people to be instructed because all the men are away from the Transkei. The irrigation scheme in Qamata has been cited as an example of what could be called "waste".

MINISTER OF FINANCE : I have noted remarks with regard to the delinquents who may be found in the streets and I hope the Department of Agriculture will take note of that. Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has made rather an unpleasant remark that the amount allocated to the Department of Education is a drop in the ocean. In the whole world no government can satisfy the needs of its population in all the divers ways of its development. I am sure the South African Government itself has not been able to meet all the requirements of its population so far as education is concerned.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: It is difficult to give the figures because it is the farmers who earn the cash which comes from the crops, not the Government. However, I want to assure you that since last year the farmers in Qamata are earning money apart from what they have to use for their subsistence . I want to quote one farmer, a lady who is over 70 years of age, who is earning an average of about R50 a month on her plot of 1 morgen. I say an average of R50 a month because she is able to get about R100 from lucerne only, which is a seasonal crop. It is cut for nine months. A member of this House who is a chief in that area has been able to get over R100 a month from lucerne only, apart from other crops. Now, the mistake which was made by those in authority was to put a scheme under uneconomic crops, and as a result the people lost interest because they had to pay accounts instead of earning money. Today the position is different and I am happy to tell you I was able to take the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to Qamata to see the scheme for himself and he was satisfied that the farmers were doing their best. Now, I will act as the host of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his wife who can come and spend a weekend with me and I will provide him with all the braaivleis he wants. (Laughter) Mr GUZANA: I will take you up on that.

Mr GUZANA: They have got compulsory education. MINISTER OF FINANCE: We should take into consideration that before this Government was established in 1963 there was practically no classroom accommodation that was established by the Government under Bantu Education. Now, with regard to the balances which we have in the exchequer this year, I want to put the blame on the members of this Assembly. We have through the hon. the Minister of Education year after year explained how these allocations are used in order to put up schools. Very few of the tribal authorities are making use of this R1 900 subisdy per classroom. If every member activated the voters in his constituency and advised them to raise the sum of R100 for every R1 900 , we should have many classrooms erected, and the question of accommodation would be solved. Mr H. H. ZIBI: Primary schools? MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, that only applies to primary schools. I am appealing to the hon. members to go to the various departments - that is, the Department of Roads and Works and the Department of Education - to get instruction on this matter. Now, the question of the employment of teachers depends on the availability of accommodation. As soon as the school committee members take the trouble to go to the Education Department in Umtata, which is not very far from any of the members of this House, and tell the department they have sufficient accommodation and request additional teachers, I do not think there will be any difficulty as far as that is concerned. If there are a number of schools that have not sufficient teachers to meet the rising number of school children I think the blame is on the school committee or the members of

MINISTER OF FINANCE : You know, there has been so much boasting about Mbinzana and Ilanti which has been conducted by the Department of Agriculture in the Ciskei with the assistance of the XDC. Actually, the XDC took over all the land in Mbinzana and Ilanti and the farmers are employed. I consulted the workers because they are just next to me and the foreman told me the men were getting 10c. an hour that is, 70c. a day ― and the women 35c. a day with no share in the profits. But it is difficult for us in the Transkei to allow a situation like that because we would like to activate our own farmers. Now, the Department of Agriculture has embarked on a scheme where a certain number of farmers should have an

105

MINISTER OF FINANCE : The committee stage will be on Monday, 1st April, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 29th March 1974.

agricultural officer watching them. There is no starvation in Qamata. What we require there is a market to sell our products. Mr GUZANA: I had occasion to learn that a vegetable concern in East London put up a cold-storage plant in East London and did not get adequate support from the farmers on the Lubisi irrigation scheme and they had to abandon this scheme after having made a large capital investment.

FRIDAY, 29TH MARCH 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : As I say, a mistake was made. From the very word "Go" the people were told to swank, as I may call it, on their land and plant cotton which was the most uneconomic crop, I am sorry to say. You won't understand because you don't know the practical issues involved . If I were to tell you that one of the farmers in Qamata sold two bales of cotton and only got R12 you will be able to see that as far as we are concerned in Qamata cotton is being planted in order to enrich the factories. We are being made the servants of the white industrialists with no return whatsoever. But now you know we have no market for our cabbages, no market for our potatoes and you will not find a single farmer in Qamata planting cotton. Cotton is an essential commodity because it is required as a raw material for our factories, but it requires to be cultivated by big farmers under mechanical conditions. In America cotton is sprayed by aeroplane and the weeding is done by aeroplane. The picking is also done mechanically. Now, some of the points raised by the various speakers will be replied to by the hon. Ministers, but I am sure that all of you will agree that this is a sound budget. Mr GUZANA: There is one point you have not replied to. Why the hon. Minister gives himself a big share and the others do not get anything. (Laughter) MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I think a mistake was made by the members. The Chief Minister is not getting R8 000. I hope the person responsible for that mistake will rectify that. The person responsible interviewed the Chief Minister on this matter, but I want to explain to the hon. members that it would be unreasonable for me to emulate other homelands when I am dealing with my budget. If, for example, one of the homelands is prepared to cut the votes on public works , on education, on all the other spheres of development in order to agument the salaries of the members of the Legislative Assembly, I think it would be irresponsible for us to do that. The most important person to be looked after by members of this Assembly is the taxpayers. I do not say I will not devise means, probably during the next financial year, to raise the salaries of the Legislative Assembly, but I could not make a fantastic increase. The increase which would be made to the salaries of the members of the Legislative Assembly should not be out of proportion to the increases made to the salaries of the civil servants. As a matter of fact, some of the civil servants should get more than the Ministers are receiving. That is the position in the Republic. It has been that position. Mr GUZANA: But the Ministers are getting a substantial amount anyway.

ANNOUNCEMENT MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to announce that the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry will not be present at the session this morning. The Chief Minister is attending the funeral of the mother-in-law of the Minister of Agriculture at Nqamakwe. NOTICES OF MOTION 33. Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of devising ways and means of compensating the people who, as a result of the incessant rains and floods, have lost all their crop and are now faced with a future of starvation." 34. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to provide shelters at all points where there are S. A. Railways, Motor Transport Service Bus stops in the Transkei and in the Republic." PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Republican Government should be requested by Resolution of this House to amend the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 to provide for:(a) An Upper House of Chiefs. (b)A Lower House of elected members ." Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether to speak Xhosa so that the hon. members in the extreme southwest corner should be given some support to hold up their staggering bodies. (Laughter) Whenever this motion is mentioned they freeze as though they are in a refrigerator, yet I am trying to place them somewhere where they will be warmer. The motion seeks to establish an upper house of chiefs and a lower house of elected members. This is by no means an anomaly. In fact, the scrambling together of chiefs and elected members in one house is indeed one of the anomalies which characterizes all constitutions relating to homelands. It is an anomaly which is at variance with the principle of a democratic system of government, for at no time do we find that members of a legislative assembly can come sectionally by vote and sectionally automatically. To make this anomaly more ludicrous we find that nominated members have an automatic majority over elected members and one wants to ask the question as to whether or not this Assembly can be said to be truly representative of the people in the Transkei. One is further led to ask the question : Have we a democratic system of government in the Transkei ? If you relate this Constitution, for instance, to the Constitution of the United States of America you will find that there is an anomaly which does not fit in to what we have been speaking about, namely freedom of speech and

MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, but I do not think they are getting far more than the civil servants are getting. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think this vote will be passed and I move that the Appropriation Bill 1974 be read a second time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr. Chairman. Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time.

106

legislative bodies. The adequate representation in federal government in the United States of America is wholly constituted of elected members. State governments are made up wholly of elected members and thus the government is a government elected by the people, representing their views, and it is a government of the people. CHIEF KAULELE MGUDLWA: Are there chiefs in America?

House and then a complicated procedure has to be followed in order to resolve such an impasse. The chiefs need not think, therefore, that they are being jettisoned when they are being pushed into the Upper House. I have always been struck by the fact that chiefs stand on their status often in matters discussed by this House. They will discuss a matter before this House and point out to the members of this House that they are chiefs, as if this gives them a certain status which distinguishes them and gives them authority over other ideas emanating from the elected members. This immediately undermines the concept of legislation by opposition, by criticism, by amendment; for a chief tends to feel that what he says is law. More often than not we find chiefs become the target of criticism, the target of attack by their subjects in this Legislative Assembly — a matter which detracts from that aura of nobility about which they feel so sensitive. This is a matter upon which all chiefs ought to exercise their minds seriously because, by virtue of being a chief, he should enjoy exemption from party-political criticism and that by being so involved, the dignity and the position of the chief is being undermined insidiously and imperceptibly. Then before the chief knows what has happened, the ordinary citizen of the Transkei, the elected member points at a chief with his thumb and feelings against a chief tend to be generated in the elected members. This goes on to such a degree that before the chief knows where he is he has lost his status in the eye of the elected members. I have always had the impression that chiefs are heads of tribes, and even if we take the word "head" literally to mean the human head, it cannot lean either to the lefthand side of the body or to the righthand side of the body, otherwise the human being will be said to be deformed. (Laughter) Now you have the chiefs put in the position where they have to lean either to the Democratic Party political

Mr GUZANA: The hon. member asks whether or not there are chiefs in the United States of America. I think this question is superflous because he knows as well as I do that there are not any chiefs in the USA, but let me take him over to Great Britain where you have the nobility, just as much as we have chiefs in the Transkei, and where the Constitution provides for an Upper House of Lords and a House of Representatives . Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who is your chief? Thomson, the mayor? Mr GUZANA: . . . and peers go into the House of Lords automatically by reason of the fact that they belong to the nobility. But here we have this mixture of nobility and elected members so that if we draw a parallel between the Constitution of the Transkei and the Constitution of Great Britain - a country which can be said to be the mother of all constitutions we find that we have done something wrong. So the hon. member who asked the question as to whether there are chiefs in the United States should get the reply that there are Chiefs in Great Britain and the legislative body has two houses - an Upper House of Lords and a Lower House of Representatives . This distinction is so strict that a peer who wishes to be in the representative chamber must forego his nobility and be elected into the House of Representatives, so that the division is a very strong and imperative one. The nobles find themselves in their own House automatically belonging to that House by reason of their birth. When I listened to the amount of opposition that we get from the Government chiefs to this motion I am given the impression that they think there is something sinister behind this motion; that the intention is to exclude them from participation in the making of legislation; that when they get to the Upper House of Chiefs the Lower House of Representatives might pass a bill to abolish the Upper House (Laughter) and then they will be thrown out into the street. If they have such a fear then it means that their position in any legislative body is superfluous and they need not be involved. Secondly, it means the chiefs are admitting that the chiefs do not enjoy the confidence of their subjects. (Interjections) Thirdly, it means that the chiefs say to themselves that they are of no practical use in a democratic system of government in an upper house. I suppose no-one has ever told them that in any constitution you can have entrenched clauses so that these clauses cannot be changed except by a special procedure laid down in the constitution itself. Thus if an upper house of chiefs is created, no legislation seeking to abolish that house may be passed unless both houses sit together and there is a two-thirds majority. If the voting is less than a two-thirds majority of both houses sitting together the entrenched clause cannot be altered. There is also the erroneous impression that the voice of the House of Chiefs will not be heard or listened to by the Lower House, but I want to point out that any bill passed by the Lower House must also be passed by the Upper House of Chiefs and that if there is a disagreement on the bill the Upper House can therefore block the legislation which comes from the Lower

way of thinking or to the TNIP political way of thinking, and then he ceases to be the controlling and unifying symbol that a chief ought to be in the eyes of all his subjects. When the chief essays into the divisive activity of party allegiance then he must of necessity expect that division to take place among his own subjects. Can we then imagine in such a sitution a united loyalty to the chief, when the chief has taken up a political stance which is not acceptable to some of his subjects? He then becomes a symbol of division amongst his own people, and this again diminishes the authority and the position of the chief in relation to his subjects. Then I want to go on to that over-used and much maligned phrase "the representative of his people" , where the chief is said to be the traditional leader — but our own tradition has not that divisive element which is peculiarly political and flows from party allegiance. All his tribesmen were all together discussing all things together under the chief and that is where the chief became the traditional leader of his people. But when you now infuse political division based on party allegiance, the traditional leadership becomes inapplicable to a situation which, by its nature, causes people to go into opposite camps. How can traditional leadership therefore survive in a society which is engaged in a divisive political system? Therefore traditional leadership is not relevant to a society which is developing politically. The whole atmosphere of thought, thinking, relationship and allegiance is changed from the traditional one into an urbanized democratic one, and the chief who has a traditional experience in dealing with a traditional society finds himself in a complex situation of new thoughts, new thought processes, new concepts for which traditional leadership has not pre107

how a chief can represent the views of his tribesmen when the tribe, by a majority, has elected a Democratic Party member when the chief is a TNIP member or vice versa? How can he say he is representing the view of his people? Can he say that as he speaks he speaks for his people who support a policy of separate development, or he speaks for his people who support the policy of multi-racialism? He is in a cleft stick, poor soul. I shall not canvass the other points, but there is just one more point I wish to draw the attention of the House to. We have had simulations of movements towards federalism in South Africa by some of the homeland leaders and they have indicated that even if a black federation comes to reality they shall ultimately seek to have the other racial groups involved in a federal assembly of South Africa. In that federal constitution, will these homeland governments seek to have nominated automatic members, being chiefs, when other racial groups do not have chiefs in South Africa? I think any concept of a continuing membership of the cgislative bodies having chiefs or nominated members is going to vitiate any concept of a federal system of government in South Africa. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I shall reserve a few points to be raised in reply to this debate. I am happy to note that my exposition has silenced the troublesome tail of the Government party and I hope that we shall approach this subject responsibly. The hon. chief from Nqamakwe has invited me to ask for an allotment in his area and these allotment or kraal sites are free to everybody who asks. My trouble, however, is that I have not got R100 to oil the palm of the hon. chief. (Laughter) CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: I second the motion. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I will not move an amendment to this motion because it does not require one. This same motion was brought here some years ago and the matter was well canvassed. I was one of the speakers in that debate. I am surprised that the same motion has been brought back. The TNIP members kicked this thing out and you are now asking for the same thing by reintroducing this motion. We refused the idea of an upper and a lower house and said we must belong to one chamber as we do now. There is nothing that is in conflict as we are today. Mr GUZANA: Aren't the Vendas asking for an upper house of chiefs? PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: I am not addressing myself to the system of the Vendas now. If we have an upper houe in the Transkei there would be bloodshed. I am telling you. You are the only one who says there should be two houses. Some of the members on your side are of different opinions from yours, especially those who are not here. I do not trust some of the members across the floor who are not chiefs. All brought points you these forhave ward may be quite pleasant to you . It may

pared him. Let us accept the ` fact that politics stimulates new thoughts in the minds of people, and these new thoughts are at variance with traditional loyalty to a traditional leader such as the chief is. Now, let us come to something which is more directly relevant to the Transkei in relation to the chiefs themselves. A few years ago a chief was defined as a paramount chief, a chief, a sub-chief. Now, when I look at the chiefs who are here today I am reminded of the chiefs who are not here today. I am referring to the chiefs who have been elbowed out of the Assembly by the chiefs who are now members of the Assembly. I ask the question : If those chiefs cannot come to this Assembly, are the chiefs who are in the Assembly fair to those chiefs who are not members of this Assembly? ― because if chiefs are going to be involved then all the chiefs should come to this Assembly. So the Constitution as it stands has a divisive effect even amongst the chiefs , so that those chiefs who are in the Assembly regard the chiefs who are not in the Assembly as lesser chiefs. The impression must be created.

Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: May I ask a question? When the British came into this country they dispossessed the chiefs of their rights over the land and it is one of the crucial points on which we are namely, the return of the land to the original owners. What has the speaker to say about that? Mr GUZANA: First of all, Mr. Chairman, in terms of procedure the speaker should have asked leave of you to ask his question ― not from me - so that the question is as if it has not been put. But I shall comment upon this in the course of my address as if no question has been asked, simply to satisfy him . Mr. Chairman, if you want to put things right you do not do another wrong. If ―- I say a big "IF" the Englishman destroyed the prestige of the chief, don't go on destroying that prestige by involving him politically, because I may state unequivocally that to involve the chief in politics is indeed to dig the grave of chieftainship in the Transkei. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Aren't the chiefs political as well as traditional leader? Mr GUZANA: I did say that the chiefs who do not come to this House are then regarded as lesser chiefs because they have been elbowed out of this House by the chiefs who are now members, and so find a sitution where the chiefs in this House may be accused of seeking personal aggrandisement. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Aren't the recognized chiefs in this House? Mr GUZANA: This position results from the fact that a chief who is a member of this House gets a salary by reason of his membership, whilst a chief who is not in this House does not get that allowance which is equivalent to the salary paid to a chief who is a member of this House, and so there is a scramble for seats where you have in a constituency more chiefs than there are chiefs for that constituency in this Assembly. If the chiefs who are members of this House were not motivated by financial gain we should now have had a motion from one of them to the effect that a Ichief who has not become a member of this House

be that you are really expressing your sincere conviction, but most of the hon. members across the floor do not like chiefs and they are liars. (Interjections) I know when this motion was before the House formerly they were bad, and I did not trust them from that day. We would have not have been here if there had been two houses. Now that we are in one house we expedite the disposal of business. Even now you on that side do not like us. What is the aim of wanting to put us in another house? What is it you want to do in secret in our absence? (Laughter) We also have common sense and we know what you want to do because you are against chieftainship. You don't favour

must be paid an amount equivalent to what he would have got if he were a member of this House, but none of the chiefs in this House has ever even thought in that direction because to get here means to get money, and thus the chiefs forget that they ought to try, in spite of their invidious position, to represent the views of the tribe from which they come. Can you tell me

108

CHIEF MAJEKE: I am going to give reasons for this remark. When an elected member comes into this House and brings up a certain matter which has to be discussed by the House and the chief objects, this member returns to the electorate and gives a report that his motion has been opposed. Immediately he gives his report the people question him and ask who objected. I am telling you what I have seen, because it has happened. I wish to remind hon. members that people are in the know because they obtain the reports which are publised and they read the division lists so that the names are known. People are in difficulties because they have to work hard and they have other difficulties of their own. The people go out to work. It is not the chiefs who work for them. They use their own strength and through their labour they have built up their homes. They educate their children with their earnings and they also want to be free from all kinds of difficulties in our present times. They know that the chief is no leader but the son of the race. Even during times of war the subjects go to fight, and fight for the name of their chief who does not interfere with their domestic matters. People do not desire to point their fingers at their chiefs and would not like their chiefs to poke their noses into their affairs. For that reason the people want the chiefs to maintain their dignity and position and they would therefore not like any interferences, as far as their affairs are concerned, by the chief. The mover of the motion had in mind that the chiefs should have an upper house where they will be able to maintain their dignity. Even in ordinary life when the chief has collected his "ibandla" his "ibandla" remains in a different hut. When an "ibandla" meeting has been convened it is the "ibandla" that will carry on discussions and at the close of those discussions the chief is called upon to give, on behalf of the "ibandla", their decisions. The people at large recognise this procedure, that whatever the " ibandla" has deceided upon it is for the chief to convey that decision to the people. When one thinks of the matters which we discuss in this House, they are questions which affect the people who are away at work. You can imagine a very great chief, the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland, who stands up in this House and tells the chiefs that they should not follow or accept the motion. A chief is not supposed to be two distinct entities - a chief

chieftainship. The day we have two houses here will be the day chieftainship is destroyed. If you are not a chief you must not agree to this motion, but if you are a chief you must oppose it. I am telling you this because I am a chief. The day you agree to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has propounded in this House is the day you will cut your own throats. He has presented his case very well as a trained attorney. A paramount chief is a traditional leader who has been born to his position. Why do you suggest that the common people must lead in this House, so that we hear matters from them? What would happen is that the people in the upper house will be referred to as illiterate and dunderheads. That type of situation cannot be acceptable. We have witnessed this in Ghana. Nkrumah deserted the chiefs and went along with the common people. What was the result? All the turmoil there was the result of that spilt. When he died he died in foreign country. He was quite a big figure and selpt in a golden bed. Everything he had was gold. He fell because he had deserted the chiefs. We must follow what God ordained. Everybody who is a chief here was appointed by the finger of God. Others were appointed to service. They must look after our stock and plough for us. (Laughter) What I mean is that we must not pay heed to the motion of the hon. Mr. Guzana. As I have said, this motion has been canvassed before in this House. There are ex-members of this House like Mr. Rajuili who expatiated on this motion. They wanted two houses. I am really surprised that the hon. Mr. Guzana has brought up this motion. I think he had forgotten that this motion was brought up before. I do not see any need for us to repeat ourselves because we formerly refused this motion. If there are any chiefs who are going to speak it means they have already adopted your doctrine. Well, I will be disappointed if they speak today but I see the hon. Chief Majeke taking notes. I have a hope that the hon. chief will not support this motion. He should like the hon. Chief Ndamase who did well the other day, and like some of the other chiefs and paramount chiefs. I hope they will not vote in favour of this motion because it goes against you and your grandchildren. You must understand that you will have embarked on a wrong path if you agree to what the hon. Mr. Guzana has said. What do you want to do? I must ask again. I have already told you the answer to that and I ask you what you are aiming at. Why did you bring forward this motion when we have passed a motion for independence? We know what your aims are.

on the one hand and a representative of the people on the other. No chief would be pleased if we were to say he is like a bat or an owl. They are clamouring for their rights in this country but they say it is the chiefs who are a stumbling-block. Not very long ago some matters affecting the people resulted in uprisings in Eastern Pondoland . What happened to some of the chiefs in Eastern Pondoland? Where are they now? They were killed by the people and we have not forgotten that episode. Those chiefs were killed and we are now trying to protect the interests of the chiefs. Take the Bunga as an illustration. Look at these benches. These benches date back to the days of the old Bunga and nothing new has been put up by this parliament. The Bunga had all the dignity and nothing of that kind is now known. The people elected those chiefs. They had dignity as they had been elected by the people and they knew and recognized their responsibility in that they came to represent the people. There is nothing worse than a man knowing he is an impediment to the as-

Mr GUZANA: What are they? PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: No, it will put you in disgrace if I tell you. Mr GUZANA: Go ahead - I challenge you to do so. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: The reason why I will not say any more is because the weather is inclement this morning and the hon. members want to go. I say we must refuse this motion as we did formerly. This motion will never be passed . The day you chiefs accept this you will know you are cutting your own throats. This motion is very deep and intricate. It is aiming to injure the chiefs and anyone who pilots a motion of this kind does not like the chiefs . (Laughter) CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as a chief I have decided to stand up in support of this motion. This is a most important motion. I would that the chiefs should listen and try to understand the motion even if they are objecting to it. The aim of the motion is to give due respect to the chiefs. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Hear, hear.

pirations of the people. Most unfortunately, some of you have not risen to that standard where you realise what is meant when people have actually elected you and given you a position of trust. Many a time when I go round the country I meet people who ask me ques-

109

MONDAY, 1st APRIL, 1974

tions about certain chiefs, and how often have I told them they should forget about So-and-so. They should listen to me because I am representing them. There are many chiefs who are present in this House. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the hon. member to stick to the motion and not tell us stories.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, last night and this morning I had the pleasure of sitting at the bedside of the hon, the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Paramount Chief Victor Poto. I am happy to inform this House that there is still hope of his recovery, although the staff of the hospital have not said there has been any improvement in his condition from what it was a few days ago, but the conversation I had with him made me feel that he had all his senses with him and his voice was quite audible as I spoke to him. We hope that he will recover and join his family and the Transkei in general.

CHIEF MAJEKE : I am talking about the chiefs. There was a large gathering in Qumbu which the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland was addressing. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, you, Sir, gave your ruling that the hon. member should disabuse himself of the question of telling this House stories, but should stick to the motion. Unless he wants to flout the ruling of the Chair he must stick to the motion. and stop telling us about what happened in a meeting at Qumbu. We are not interested in that. CHIEF MAJEKE: I am talking about matters which affect the chiefs and their dignity.

MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we are very happy indeed to learn of the heartening condition of Paramount Chief Victor Poto and it is our sincere hope that he will soon be amongst us. His age may well tell against his complete recovery, but one cannot but hope that God's mercy will be extended so that this great man of the Transkei is again with us when constitutional developments are facing us. I hope his son, who is a member of this Assembly, will be gracious enough to convey these good wishes of speedy recovery to him.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, you have given your ruling and the hon. member must stick to your ruling or resume his seat. That is the procedure. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : If the hon. member for Qumbu does not wish to obey my ruling I will order him to sit down or march out. He must stick to the motion. CHIEF MAJEKE : This is what is said by people as I go round ― that these chiefs are an impediment and they are blocking their progress. As a chief I do not like such remarks from the people. This instills the spirit of fear into the chiefs when they begin not to trust their very own subjects. The chief becomes a chief because of his own subjects who have trust in him. As soon as the people have no confidence in their chief the chief feels he is lost. If the chiefs are

OBITUARY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. mem. bers, I regret to inform this House that a member of this Assembly by the name of the hon. Mr. Curnick Ndamse died at Edendale Hospital, Pietermaritzburg, on Saturday, 30th March 1974 at 3 p.m. His untimely demise after a short period of illness will shock South Africans of all racial groups. Mr. Ndamse was an elected member of this Assembly since 1968, representing the constituency of Mount Ayliff and he will always be remembered through the contributions he made in our deliberations. As a member of the Transkeian Cabinet his colleagues gave him all the respect he deserved and he reciprocated. As a Transkeian citizen he will ever be remembered for his patriotism. In politics his ambitions were disrupted by the cruel death that mercilessly cut short his life. As a family man Curnick had an unusual affinity for his family who, I predict, have suffered an irreparable loss. The Transkei has lost one of its leading politicians whose future career would probably have led him to greater political heights. The condolences and the deepest sympathies of this House should be appropriately conveyed to his wife and family by the Secretary. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we speak of the death of the late C. M. C. Ndamse as if it is something which we would like physically to reject as a fact. It seems only yesterday that he was with us and he is now no longer with us. A highly educated man who had bent his wisdom and learning to the service of the people of the Transkei, whose enthusiasm for change and improvement may well have outstripped the thinking and the planning of others, he saw beyond the horizon and sought to bring others to that vision, very much to his disappointment at times. When he joined us in this House in 1968 he was a member of a political party - that is, the governing party; but those of us who

given a place to themselves which will bring about dignity they should accept such a request. It is too bad to hear a remark made by the people in the presence of the chief that "This is no chief” . They say the chiefs should go into an upper house because here they obstruct progress. When we asked on one occasion that the people should be given licences for firearms one of the chiefs said : "Oh no, my people should not be given firearms because they will kill me". These people work hard and their stock is stolen but they have no firearms because the chief will not allow that. GOVT. MEMBER : Quote! CHIEF MAJEKE : You are the very man who refused. (Laughter) In fine, Mr. Chairman, I say this motion should be accepted by this House so that the chiefs should have an upper house and the elected members a lower house. The debate was adjourned. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members in view of the fact that today is about the month-end and in view of the fact that the members expect to receive their sessional allowances, and in view of the inclement weather today I move that this House adjourns now until Monday morning. PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO: Mr. Chairman, as Paramount Chief of Umtata district the road I have to travel is in a very bad state. I therefore second the motion. Agreed to.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 1st April 1974.

110

not only have the chiefs been administrators, judicial officers, but indeed chiefs have been powerful political leaders of their people. That being the case, I don't like this House to hear anybody telling me that the chiefs in this Assembly are a nuisance and as such must be secluded from this Chamber and put in a deepfreezer. (Laughter) Here is a quotation, and this quotation is quite appropriate. "If the chiefs are to become not only a part of the machinery of government but a living part of its political energies and abilities, the people must be directed to the preservation and development of their own institutions." Mr Chairman, I want to be bold to say that on no account must we ever think that the presence of chiefs in this House is a nuisance. The chiefs are not here on toleration. Chiefs are here because this is a rightful place for them to be, in this Assembly. Therefore chiefs cannot be bundled into an upper house in that way so that they are separated from the politicians in this Assembly. Why must chiefs be put in the so-called upper house? They are politicians like ourselves and therefore have a right to be in this Assembly. Here is another quotation from the authority who is an

heard him speak here came to realise that here was a man whose vision and foresight could not be containd within the blinkers of party caucus discipline. When truth became clear to him and he could not gainsay it, one would see him moving in his chair and wearing a smile of appreciation for those things which are worthwhile, for which men must live and die. His appreciation for what is noble and fair and just stepped beyond party discipline and party restriction for he realised what was good no matter from what source. He was a man of many parts, associated with many organisations for the advancement of South Africa and for its change. He was burning he candle at both ends, some of us felt, but "one crowded hour of glory is worth an age without a name". If anyone felt that he had reached the doldrums of his political career when he passed away, let us remember that life has its ups and downs. None of us should think that we will pass out of his world when our light is shining very brightly. What a loss it is to those to whom he gave inspiration and strength, guidance and love. May our sympathies go to his wife and children, that they were privileged to share intimately the life of a man whose dedication was to Africa. Probably at a later stage when it is opportune, something more may be said about his man whose light has gone out so early in his life. May his soul rest in peace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion was carried, the members standing as a mark of respect to the late Mr. C. M. C. Ndamse.

exponent of the significant role of chieftainship in African society: “All experience goes to show that the best guarantee for the maintenance of traditional institutions in modern administration lies in integrating them with the government institutions necessary to secure good administration and government." You will notice that the writer concerned stresses the point that the chiefs must be integrated with modern government. In other words, from the very beginning I think the mover of the motion is definitely wrong, for as I am going to prove, all the time the chiefs are from the very beginning the very people who have started the machinery of government in the Transkei There should have been no machinery of government if chiefs from the beginning had not participated vigorously in the government. I therefore sincerely object to having chiefs put in an upper house. They have, it is true I must admit, Mr. Chairman, today lost much of their political power through the machinations of the early British administrators but even today chiefs still retain a large degree of cultural and social autonomy. All the evidence goes to show that the institution of

NOTICE OF MOTION 35. Mr. P. N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move: “That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisabiliy of building a bridge at Luvulweni opposite Umtata Mouth." PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY The debate was resumed. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, from the very onset I feel that in speaking on this motion I should say I am inclined to think that the mover of this motion, in moving this motion, may have been worried about the fact that perhaps there is a preponderance of a number of chiefs on the governing side over the number of chiefs on his side. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I am tempted to think that if the position were to be reversed the hon. the Leader of the Opposition might have been conspicuously silent and might have really felt that the present arrangement in this House is as good as anything else. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, the mover of the motion does not seem to understand exactly why chiefs are being attracted to the governing side. Who can MR. K. M. GUZANA: Will he hon, the Minister of Education sit down. There is a point of order to be taken. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who can doubt, Mr. Chairman (Laughter) Let me proceed Mr. Chairman, as if there was no interruption. Who can doubt the fact that chiefs are largely attracted to the governing side because of the policy of the governing side, which is positive and which policy indeed is leading the chiefs to independence, which independence, by the way, the chiefs are accustomed to. Historically it is known that the chiefs have been enjoying a political independence all along. That explains why the early British administrators systematically and insidiously broke down the power of the chiefs. It must be understood that

chiefainship still commands a great deal of respect in an African society. A chief rightly occupies a political position of prestige in an African society. MR. K. M. GUZANA: Is it prestige by birth or by efficiency? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : A chief is a person in an African society who can personally wield the power inherent in the political system. The point I wish to lay stress on is that it must not be mistaken that a chief is an ordinary traditional leader, but a political leader. There have been political leaders and this is the significant role they have played from time immemorial. Mr. Chairman, a chief is an embodiment of his people and therefore we want to share with him in our debating chambers. We would resent any detachment of a chief from us here, the politicians, because he is a politician like ourselves, and it must be understood that a chief cannot be autocratic or despotic as long as he has counsellors to check on him. I would admit the fact that today in the Transkei there are some processes of industrialisation and modernisation which are under way. In other words, our society is being transformed, which means superficially to other people that they think the rule of chiefs, for instance, is dying. But this is indeed incorrect, because all the politicians of the Transkei should be doing today is to revivify chieftain111

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, there is a chief sitting next to me here. I am enjoying his intellectual company and I would be very sad to have him put in an upper house. No-one is going to put him in an upper house. Mr Chairman, was it not last week when a sensible chief from this side spoke sense all the time, all along the line, when members of the Opposition were just confused on the motion of independence? It was a chief who understood the issues involved. What a fine contribution this chief made in this House - but the Opposition was confused they did not understand the issues involved. Are you so grossly unfair as to suggest that this prominent chief for whom I have a great regard is to be made a hermit in an upper house? (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I wonder why are these gentlemen worried about the presence of the chiefs here except, as I have indicated earlier, their worry is the preponderance of the number on the Government side over the small number on their side. Basically, really, they have nothing against the chiefs. MR. GUZANA: We have never said we have anything against the chiefs.

ship and even give it a new interpretation consonant with the ideas of the twentieth century. MR. GUZANA: It does not belong there, that is the trouble. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Fortunately, this is being done today. We must give education to the younger generation of chiefs. To me, any suggestion that a chief must be separated and must have an exclusive house, I would say this is an ingratitude to the descendants of the Xhosa warriors. MR. GUZANA: I think you speak with your tongue in your cheek, you know. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, may I remind this House, in case some of us have forgotten today in Central Africa their cataclysmic upheavals have been exemplified in a series of coups d'état just because the politicians in those areas were so enthusiastic about the imposing of the so-called "Western" standards of democracy. To me this is almost suicidal and we would never like to see a repetition of this sort of thing in the Transkei . In any case, what moral right have the politicians of the Transkei to suggest that the chiefs must be secluded in the upper house? MR. GUZANA: They will not be secluded. That is the wrong word. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not. The moment you suggest that the chiefs must be separated from their own people that is sinister.

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They would be satisfied to have a bigger number of chiefs on their side, but unfortunately, because of the myth of multi-racialism, chiefs who are used historically to independence can never join a party which is not leading them anywhere. The chiefs want independence, they are used to it, so the thing is very simple. The worry of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is that he has a small number of chiefs on his side. May I say something now that is interestingly fresh on this subject. Those of us who have read European history, and have read it with understanding and with a discerning mind, know that the period of 1830/48 is a period which was characterised by bloodshed, guillotining of people, manslaughter, all because the politicians of the time wanted democracy. The politicians of the time were so impatient with the old institutions that they were prepared to see bloodshed in order to get rid of the old institutions . If the politicians of the Transkei really want democratic institutions, which is a very good thing, they must bear in mind that there can be no democratic institutions unless they are based on the old institutions - that is chieftainship in this case.

MR . GUZANA: They must be elevated to the upper house. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is an ingratitude. Mr Chairman, so far as the governing side is concerned it has no apology to make to anybody about the presence of chiefs in this Assembly. Who is a State President, by the way, in Botswana if not a chief/politician , Seretse Khama? MR. GUZANA: No, not a chief politician.. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : A chief/politician. MR. GUZANA: What kind of person is that? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is there any upper house in Botswana? There is no upper house there. If ever at all we were to suggest that chiefs, who I regard with due respect as powerful politicians if ever we were to suggest they should be in an upper house there would never be any dignity in this House because their presence here ensures the dignity of the House. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I am appealing to this House for goodness' sake leave the chiefs severly alone where they are. They are annoying nobody, they are interfering with nobody here. MR. GUZANA: They are just useless here - you are quite right. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In Lesotho the Prime Minister is a chief. What is wrong in that? Must he be put in that refrigerator? (Laughter) Are you suggesting such a powerful man as Chief Jonathan must be put in an upper house? How is he going to succeed in influencing the course of event in his country as he is doing, and for the general good of the country? Mr Chairman, the first leader of the opposition Democratic Party in the Transkei is a paramount chief.

MR. GUZANA: Do you want bloodshed here to bring about change? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I have a very good quotation here, If you would give me time. CHAIRMAN : Next speaker, please.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members of the House, I stand up to support the motion for an upper and a lower house, which motion has been put by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I think it is the third time that this motion has come before the House and every time that it has come before the House the members of the Government are against it. The fact that this motion has been brought here several times indicates that it is a very important motion. MR. GUZANA: Hear, hear. Mr JAFTA: We have brought motions during these last ten years, some of them just once, but sometimes you find they are not very important. However, this one is very important indeed. The chiefs and members on the governing side have always rejected it on the grounds of: What do you want to do by yourselves? It is not that we want to do anything, but just to put things right in the proper way. It has been indicated here by the hon. the Chief Minister that this

MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Even the present one Chief Guzana . (Laughter) MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you suggesting that this honourable man must be in the upper house? MR. GUZANA: As a chief he will go there, but as an elected member he will be here.

112

House is following the system of democracy that is followed in all Western countries. That is why we also also put this motion, because we follow the other democratic countries. He has indicated that all that we do is to follow Cape Town parliament, but even in the laws that are introduced in this House follow more or less the pattern in the Cape Town parliament. In fact, this motion seeks to place the chiefs in a position of dignity. A chief by tradition is the court of the tribe; a chief is a unifying factor of that tribe. A chief is not a politician . A chief in politics will favour those whose views follow his and he will dislike those who are against his views. The chiefs, including the hon. the Chief Minister, are suspicious about this motion. They always ask us what we want with this upper house. As I have said, it is a place of dignity and respect towards the chiefs. It is known all over that the word of a chief amongst the people is a word that is honoured, be it right or be it wrong, just because that word comes from the mouth of a chief. It is known that he is not a person to be refused what he says. With these chiefs who are with us all we want is to place them in a more dignified status, and when they are there our discussions in the lower house will be given to them so that they can scrutinize them as it is done traditionally. There are other countries which have an upper house and a lower house where the commoners can speak openly without pointing fingers at the chiefs. Well, this is well known by the chiefs in other places and it is well liked by them. There has been talk that this motion shows that we have some dislike of the chiefs. I refute that as utter nonsense. The hon. the Minister of Education has indicated that the British rule was wrong in that it reduced the powers of the chiefs. We do not say the powers of the chiefs must be reduced . All we say is that they must be in an upper house where they will have an equal say with the commoners in the lower house, because these who are in the lower house will be posted to the upper house to scrutinize legislation and put it right, this being the procedure carried out in all Western countries. I must repeat that in the upper and lower houses we will have the same amount of talking together. It will not mean that when we are in the lower house we will finish all the discussions down here and in the upper house the chiefs will have no say. We have many instances of quarrels here when a commoner points a finger at a chief. This we do not like. We want the elected members to discuss things and place them before the chiefs in the upper house. Mr Chairman and hon. members, I support very strongly this motion that the chiefs be in an upper house and we elected members in a lower house. Mr W. L. SIPUKA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, with your permission I would take my pencil and cross the motion out as something which is unworthy to be brought before this House. In accepting what is alleged to be coming from those who have brought light and yet brought oppression on us for the last 320 years, the motion suggests that chiefs must be put into a mortuary whilst they are still alive. (Laughter) I am almost certain that there is not one man who is a chief who will be able to lend support to the suggestions which have been put before the House. A chief who supports this motion will have to trace his background.

chiefs by virtue of their fathers having behaved themseives well and were probably even headmen. (Laughter) This motion does not spring from the top but comes up from the bottom like a pyramid. Nothing is ever done without the chiefs being consulted, even in the lower authorities. Go to those tribal authorities and you will find a chief present there. Go to the regional authorities and you will the chief together with councillors scrutinizing matters affecting their people. Today a suggestion is made when we are in the topmost of legislative authorties that the chiefs should be excluded. Nothing is said about the lower administrative and legislative authorities. A structure which is top-heavy is cerizin to collapse. The motion seeks that we should bury the chiefs to eternity. We have a historical survey of the Semitic races. When they entered Egypt they Pharoah. When they left that found a chief there the Almighty. country they had their own chief When they arrived at the place where they were to reside they demanded their own chief. A king was nominated for them. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition now suggests that we should follow the line of the British. People who can follow that suggestion are people whom we should term foreigners people who know nothing about the traditions of chieftainship. All nations have their leaders to lead them. Our chiefs led us during turbulent times. In times of war the chiefs were leaders in this country; during times of starvation and unrest word was referred to the chiefs as to what their suggestions were. These chiefs to whom I have referred as being segregated now to a place where the dead are, are the very chiefs who piloted these matters in Pretoria. They were leading the people by the weapon not of the sword but of the spirit and the brain . That is why we are today enjoying self-government. Now when we segregate these chiefs we shall liken ourselves to hunters. Hunters will set dogs into the forests and bushes, such species as the trackers, and when these dogs catch the game the humans eat the flesh and throw the bones to the dogs. It is clear this hon. member wants to put us into difficulties and when he has led the nation to destruction he wants to co-opt every one of you here. I would compare this to a game played by children of passing the buck on to the next person. When the people who have elected us to this Assembly hear that we have thrown out the chiefs from this Assembly, they will manhandle us. The suggestion in this motion is that the people will manhandle us. When I look at the benches opposite I see fine children of chiefs and all the chiefs are here next to me. I also belong to the royal family and that is why my chief is sitting next to me. African tradition is that a chief must obey God and in turn the people must obey the chief. In Gcalekaland we are going to have lay preachers as we are approaching Good Friday. A preacher will go on with his sermon but a Gcalek a will ask: What does the chief say about what you were telling the congregation? (Laughter) In Emboland you will hear people say: God, you are great, but you are not as great as Bungane. (Laughter) That is an indication that the Abambo people are still adhering to their chief although he passed away long ago, but the motion seeks that we must part ways with the chiefs. Hon members, the chiefs must not stand up and support the motion. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up in support of the motion which has been brought into this House by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. It is a very fine motion and

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Hear, hear. Mr SIPUKA: It might be found that some of the chiefs who support this motion may be those who are not traditionally and genealogically chiefs. but became 113

as the Opposition we have to indicate what should happen. In fact, this proposal will ultimately be successful (Interjections)

if we look back into history we will find that the chiefs always listened to the counsellors. I will tell you a story that happened in Gcalekaland. (Interjections) The chiefs were always advised by their counsellors. Kulile, the son of Majeke, was not a chief but he showed the chiefs the way to decide in certain cases. I am trying to show you the difference between the counsellors and the chiefs. The counsellors advised the chiefs. The lower house should be occupied by the elected members and those elected members are like the followers of the chiefs. The upper house is a place suitable to be occupied by the chiefs so that the elected members or commoners who occupy the lower house will hold their discussions, and all their discussions in regard to the passing of legislation will be referred to the upper house and it is the upper house which will approve those laws. When it is stated that the chiefs will occupy the upper house it brings them to a position where they will sort out the laws which have been introduced in the lower house and put them right. (Interjections)

You see the beauty of it when you see members of the Senate occupying the upper house and the elected members occupying the lower house. I implore you to accept this motion and then you will see something that is beautiful when all these chiefs are occupying the upper house. I remember at one time when I was in Cape Town when a certain speech was being delivered in the Senate and one speaker said that all that had been brought there should be returned to the Assembly. It should be remembered that in the upper house the people who occupy it will be people of royal blood, and the lower house by elected members who are commoners. I have stated what I saw when I was in Cape Town. I saw the house of the Senate. It had a red carpet and the lower house was carpeted with green. When I saw the Senate I saw something that was beautiful and I decided I would come and tell the people of the Transkei about it. You are being requested, members of the Government side, to accept this motion and try not to be obstinate and refuse to do so. You are being requested, hon. members. Don't be misled, hon. members, as I have listened to the hon. member for Tsomo who said quite a lot of things which he knew little about. He does not even know anything about the chiefs. We want to show you that you know nothing about chieftainship. You are like people who have just come into this country like foreigners. Be converted, you people (Laughter)

CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE : During the reign of Paramount Chief Hintsa there was some dispute and it was during that dispute that Kulile acted as an adviser to the chief. In that dispute the findings of that court were made by Kulile. It is not the duty of the chief to put right the country. The counsellors act on behalf of the chief and it is for that reason that no chief should be allowed to rule without counsellors. For that reason this motion seeks that the chiefs should occupy an upper house. Whatever has been passed by the lower house which is occupied by the commoners will be thoroughly gone into by the upper house of chiefs, and it is the chiefs who will consider those questions and

My last example is this: Moses was not a chief but he was given instructions to lead his people, and Pharoah and David gave instructions to counsellors to hold the reins. When you recall Pharoah who called upon Joseph to explain the meaning of his dream, it was the counsellor who explained that dream . When Egypt was ruled by a counsellor, was Egypt not prosperous? When this counsellor ruled for a period of seven years there was plenty of corn. As Pharoah was proud of his status as a chief he could not grasp the meaning of the vision he saw. When Joseph was called up to the great place in Egypt he then told the Egyptians what they should do and what they should not do. Joseph advised the Egyptians to plough and they followed his advice. What is known right from creation is that the chief never took a lead but it was the counsellors who led and the chiefs followed. If the bees have to settle in one spot to make their honey it is the ordinary bee who looks for this spot. What I want to press upon you is that you should accept and follow the motion so that the chiefs should occupy an upper house. If the bees have to be moved from where they are, first of all four bees will take the lead and then the queen will follow. I will remind you of the story of Solomon. Solomon was not the heir but God appoints the chief or the king even if that child is illegitimate. (Laughter) You should not be under the impression that it is chieftainship that brings freedom. It is quite possible for chieftainship to bring us to destruction . (Interjections)

approve when it is necessary to do so. I will refer you to a certain dispute which took a period of three years, and after that period a counsellor, Kulile, was brought and his opinion was sought and it was through his advice that a decision was made. After that decision nothing ever happened because a counsellor had given his advice. If you have to discuss a certain matter you should go back into history to find if there has been a precedent. Even in Tembuland when there were certain uprisings a certain man, the son of Mbombo, stood up and gave his advice. Through his advice the then chief of the Tembus was in a position to fight the enemy . During the days of the Bunga, the late Paramount Chief Jongilizwe Dalindyebo said no chief should ever go to the Bunga. It is the counsellors who should go to the Bunga. During that time people like Bam were elected. That happened in Tembuland . During the Nongquase episode the Tembus were not annihilated because they refused to listen to her advice. I want to tell you people opposite that this country is marching forward. If you understand the aim of this motion, the chiefs will be willing to occupy the upper house proposed. When I was in Cape Town I saw something very fine because I saw an upper house and the lower house which is occupied by the elected members. When we say the chiefs should occupy the upper house we are not making reference to those chiefs who have come into this House because they have been elected, but we make this reference according to the chiefs who have been brought in because of their status. I would like you people on the governing side to realise that this is a very good and sound motion and that you should accept it. We will always correct you because

CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE : In anything that needs to be done, at last the chiefs will require an adviser. Even in the tribal and regional authorities it is the counsellors who form the membership. The debate was adjourned . 114

AFTERNOON SESSION

economic development. Provided, therefore, we are also prepared to do our share by working for the betterment of our own lot there is really nothing which should deter us from realising our most elevated ideals without the aid of revolutionary methods. It should be clear, therefore, that these so-called freedom fighters have no part to play in freeing anybody in South Africa. What they are aiming at, however, is to create chaos to open the way for a wholesale take-over by their sponsors, the communist countries. Let me assure you Mr. Chairman, these countries are not seeking the wellbeing of the Xhosas, Sothos, Vendas or Zulus. Because of its strategic significance in world politics, they are after the territory we occupy. Their aim is world domination and to get control of South Africa will assist them greatly in achieving this goal. We have no role or benefit, honourable members, in the aims of these terrorists. All we stand to gain by their actions is the eventual loss of our freedom, territory and identity; the loss also of what both Black and White have worked for for years in this country. That is why we are against terrorism as practised in Africa. And that is why we are against communism and its satellite organisations - organisations which, although they are not purely communistic, are assisting the aims of communism. My Government as a responsible government has, therefore, adopted an unshakeably strong standpoint against all terrorism. I feel the world should know that we, as a black government in South Africa, have no need for terrorist activities, that we feel that terrorist revolution will only break down everything we have achieved, that it will put us back decades in our development and that every person or organization assisting these terrorist organisations either morally or materially is committing a crime against the people of South Africa, be they black or white.

APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now convert itself into committee of supply in connexion with the Appropriation Bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. House in Committee

POLICY SPEECH OF THE CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable members, it has been customary for me to devote a major portion of my policy speech to political policy matters. In view, however, of the extensive attention given to these matters in the no-confidence debate and during the debate on my independence motion I feel it would be pointless to refer once again to matters such as my Government's stand on independence, the land question, separate development as such, the position of whites and coloureds in a future independent Transkei etc. etc. These matters have been sufficiently canvassed and my Government's policy regarding these matters should be abundantly clear by now. There are, however, a few matters of a political nature which I would like to deal with briefly. The first and most important one, Mr. Chairman, is the question or terrorism. I have on several occasions made it clear that my Government rejects the doctrine of communism. We as a Government feel that South Africa's problems will not be solved through anarchy and other revolutionary methods as employed by the communists but rather through mature and balanced dialogue and negotiation. We prefer to remain coolheaded rather than succumb to emotional calls from irresponsible elements for throwing off the so-called yoke of white oppression. Emotions are not a very reliable agent for solving problems. On the other hand intellectual methods are. Our convictions are not based on our emotional response to cries for violence against those who have oppressed us but on the factual position existing today. There is no denying that there are certain aspects of the Republican Government's policy of Separate Development which annoy us. But Mr. Chairman, they are minor parts of the policy. The basis of the policy, viz. to assist the African peoples of South Africa to reach full independence (and here I am not referring to political independence only) is healthy and has opened up avenues for development which never existed before. Why, honourable members, shall we then elect to see only the negative side of the policy? Why shall we not grasp the opportunities under this policy to become absolutely free under circumstances which will guarantee future good relations between us and the other states of Southern Africa?

To sum up Mr. Chairman, the world must know that we in the Transkei are quite satisfied that we can attain our "freedom" quickly enough through legal constitutional means, that we are determined to preserve the good relations existing between the Republican Government and ourselves in a spirit of good-neighbourliness and that we condemn in the strongest terms any action by whomsoever, directed at revolutionary upheavals. I hope, Mr. Chairman, the world, and particularly those so-called liberation movements and everybody who supports them will take note of what I have said today. Another matter on which I would like to express a few views is the question of black-white relations in South Africa. Mr. Chairman and Honourable members, this is a delicate problem requiring our honest and serious attention. In considering this problem we must be objective. Our attitude to other racial groups should not be determined or dominated by our emotions. We should not allow history to have a negative influence on our present or future thinking on this problem. I know. honourable members, that certain attitudes and actions of the white man in South Africa have caused and still are causing resentment amongst Africans. The most resented, I am sure, is the white man's attitude of superiority and all the resultant actions which flowed from this attitude. Let us look at this phenomenon a little closer. What gave rise to this attitude? In my opinion it started with the position which existed when the two races came into contact in South Africa. This attitude has, however, unfortunately become

And that, Mr. Chairman, brings me to terrorism . The terrorists call themselves "freedom fighters". But who do they want to free, and if anybody is to be freed why then by violent and revolutionary means? We are not bound by anybody! We can get political independence any day we wish and we can get it by perfectly legal and constitutional means. All the machinery has been created to allow and enable each Black national unit in South Africa to develop as far as it wishes. Additional to the creation of the opportunities for development the Republican Government had always signified its willingness in very real terms to assist us financially in our quest for political and 115

(c) (d) (e) (f)

traditional and has not kept pace with the times. There are further, also unfortunately, amongst us those who , being unsure of themselves, have developed an inferiority complex which now seeks expression in thoughts of violence and aggression those who want to show the white man what they are worth. The position in South Africa is such that neither black nor white can afford to harbour petty feelings of hatred and revenge. White and black will have to work out the future of S.A. together because we will have to live together on one subcontinent. We will be interdependent and if the future is to hold any advantage for any of us we will have to live together harmoniously. Neither petty grievances nor constant raking of past wrongs, whether real or imagined, will assist in any way. On national level a great step to improve race and international relations has been taken with the summit meeting between homeland leaders and the South African Prime Minister. In this way meaningful dialogue can in future take place. We will be in a position to discuss with the white government those matters which we feel are hurting the dignity of the black man in South Africa and also any other matter of importance to us. The reverse will of course also apply. This opportunity for having frank and honest discussions on contentious matters will go a long way to improving relations between white and black in South Africa. We will, honourable members , have to readjust ourselves to our new circumstances - circumstances under which there is no need for us to feel inferior. All of us will also have to make a determined effort to improve relationships on the personal level and to educate our people at every opportunity towards this goal. The last matter in this context which I wish to remark on is the replacement of white seconded officials in the Transkeian Government Service. I don't think Mr. Chairman, that there is any doubt about my Government's desire to man all posts in the government service with Transkeian citizens . This will be evident

The Treasury Branch; The Accounts Branch; The Taxation Branch; and The Economic Development Branch.

(a) The Legislative Assembly Branch: This branch is in effect the Department of the Chief Minister and is responsible for a variety of matters such as liaison between this Government and the outside bodies, local authorities, chiefs and headmen, the running of this House and urban representatives. Since my last policy speech my Department has been successful in its representations for the transfer of the information function to this Government. The Transkei will, with effect from 1st April 1974, have its own information service. Due to the fact that we are not completely independent yet, the service will only operate internally. The establishment of the necessary organization now to perform this function will however, of course, also provide the necessary basis for expansion when the Transkei is independent. The Republican Government has promised us the services of an experienced white official to establish the service and to train Transkeian citizens for the work, and has also indicated that it will be prepared to transfer to my Department all Black officials who are at present working in or in connection with Transkei Information and who so elect. As honourable members might recall, this Government's Urban Representative and his three assistants operate in the four provinces of the Republic. In order to assist these men in the performance of their duties and especially in the hearing of civil claims arising out of Bantu law and custom, urban boards have been established. Altogether 44 such boards have been established and most of them are ready to commence functioning. In Natal, in particular, the urban boards are actually determining civil claims in their courts. It is hoped that more and more boards will be established as time goes by until all the Transkeian citizens in the urban areas are in a position to reap the benefits of this system . As from 1st April 1973 the salaries of the 91 chiefs, 868 headmen, members of this Assembly, the official leader of the opposition, the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the House, and the chairman and members of the P.S.C. , were substantially increased. The Inspector of lower authorities who started work in April 1972 has thus far inspected 58 tribal authorities and 9 regional anthorities in 11 districts. I regret to report that the picture formed by his reports is altogether gloomy and discouraging. Almost every inspection revealed an alarming disinterest by heads and councillors of authorities in the affairs of their authorities and in the general advancement of their people. Heads do not seem to understand that to look after the affairs and administration of their authorities is part of the duties for which they are paid by the Government. The spirit of voluntary and free service to the community is sadly lacking in councillors. A general lack of drive on the part of the members and heads of these bodies is also apparent. The government's efforts to motivate these people through courses in the past and personal inspections and guidance seem to have had no great effect. At the same time, Mr. Chairman, the people are crying out for development work on the local authority level such as the provision of local roads, school buildings, clinics etc. The people have proved that they are willing also to contribute to these development services by taxing themselves . In 1973/74, for example

when, later in my speech, I will give the traditional resumé of the activities of my department. We must keep in mind, however, that we do not have the necessary Transkeian citizens to fill all posts in the government service. We are still dependent on the services and goodwill of civil servants from outside our own ranks. I wish to reiterate that these officials should at all times feel assured that we appreciate their services and that they will be welcome to stay in the Transkei as long as we do not have experienced and suitably trained Transkeian citizens to take over from them. We appreciate the way in which they have in the past and are still training black people to take over from them. We know that most of them are far removed from their relatives and financial interests but are nevertheless, in the interest of South Africa as a whole and the Transkei in particular, prepared to make the sacrifice of staying on while they are needed. We appreciate their efforts, therefore, all the more.

I wish to call on all Transkeians to let these officials always feel welcome and not to be over-hasty about their replacement. They are laying firm foundations for the future of the Transkei and we can ill-afford to lose their services before we have our own properly trained men to replace them. Having dealt with these matters I will now proceed to deal briefly with the administration of the following branches of my Department : (a) The Legislative Assembly Branch; (b) The Public Service Commission's office; 116

an amount of R1 million has been collected from the people of the Transkei for these purposes. The Government is also making provision from year to year for assisting these lower authorities in rendering the necessary services. Because of the inefficiency of the authorities large amounts are every year left over, as can be seen from the Controller and Auditor-General's reports . Post primary scholarships administered by regional authorities have been increased in value in the past year from R700 to R900 per year per district. This was done as a result of a motion to that effect passed by this House during the first session last year. It should be realised by the lower authorities that although the central government can assist them financially it cannot perform the functions devolving upon local government bodies and that if these bodies shirk their responsibilities basic development works and basic government duties and functions will not be performed, this to the detriment of the people and the Transkei as a whole.

and to show a pride in themselves, their work and the society they serve. If there is no response I will not hesitate to request the Public Service Commission and departmental heads to be more strict and mete out the severest punishment.

(c) Branch: Treasury: As is well known, preparation of the annual estimates of Expenditure and Revenue is the responsibility of the Treasury. What is, perhaps, not so well known, is that after the Assembly has appropriated the funds needed to carry out the Government's work programme, the Treasury continues, throughout the year, to exercise overall control over the collection of revenue and departmental spending. Together with the Controller and Auditor-General, it is the guardian of public moneys which are released to departments on a monthly basis only to the extent deemed necessary. In 1964/1965 - the first fiscal year of the selfgoverning Transkei - revenue totalled R16 million and expenditure R12 million. A staff of ten was employed in the Branch, seven of whom were seconded and three Transkeian officers. For 1974/1975 revenue has increased by more than 400% to ± R731 million and expenditure by nearly 600% to a similar amount despite which control is still exercised by a staff of only ten, but today, I am pleased to report, consisting of nine Transkeians and only one seconded officer. During the past year the remaining seconded officer was also succeeded by a Transkeian as Secretary to the Tender Board. Seen against the background of the greatly increased responsibilities of the Treasury, the establishment stability and successful replacement of seconded staff are achievements of which I am justifiably proud.

(b) The Public Service Commission Office: My Department has started to train officers of the Transkeian Government Service as Training Officers who will operate in the different Government departments in an effort to increase efficiency and to provide the necessary material to replace seconded officials. A seven weeks course for these training Officers was conducted during February/March 1974. Six officers attended the course and of these four were successful. Development in the Transkei is illustrated inter alia by the increase in the number of posts in the Government Service. There are now 5 885 posts as against 2446 at the inception of the Transkeian Government in 1963. This is an increase of 240%. The Transkeian Government is by far the largest single employer in the territory and employs (labourers included) approximately 20 000 Transkeians. The total number of posts filled by seconded officers as at the 11th December, 1963 was 18,6% of the entire establishment. Due to the successful training of Transkeian officers many of the seconded officers could be and were actually withdrawn. At the end of 1973 only 5,8% of all posts were still occupied by Whites. As you are aware the process of withdrawing seconded officers is continuing. The latest withdrawals have enabled the Public Service Commission to recommend the promotion of 115 Transkeians. This illustrates the tempo at which civil servants are being trained to take over higher and more responsible positions. It is expected that posts occupied by seconded officers will at the end of this year drop to below 4% The Commission is at present making arrangements to advertise for Xhosa and Sotho speaking Transkeians . All vacant posts and those filled by seconded officers from the rank of Assistant Secretary downwards will be advertised. Although I am optimistic about developments in the Government Service I am perturbed by the rising incidence of misconduct as has been shown in the Commission's latest report. During 1973 the percentage of officers holding prescribed posts and who were found guilty of misconduct rose from 2,9% the previous year to 4,1 %. This state of affairs cannot be tolerated any longer. It not only reflects badly on Transkeian citizens as a whole but can also have a detrimental effect on the smooth running of the Government Service and the eventual take-over of posts held by seconded officers. I want to make a special appeal to all civil servants to adhere strictly to the regulations

(d) Branch: Accounts : Every cent of the literally hundreds of millions of Rand which have been appropriated by this House since 1964/1965 has flowed through the Branch: Accounts. The Controller and Auditor-General has never once had occasion to report adversely on its work. Four of the seven departments have their own Accounts Divisions ― Health, Agriculture and Forestry, Roads and Works, and Education. The remaining three (my department, Interior and Justice) are served by a centralised organisation falling under the Control Accountant who also exercises functional control over the decentralised components nenuoned. Of a staff of 110 only five are seconded officers. The whole system is fully computerised and we have indeed been pioneers in this field of homeland government. Two Transkeians are in training as programmers and have both passed various courses in computer science. Together with the Treasury the Branch : Accounts is one of the foundation stones on which the Transkei's solid financial administration rests. To see that the provision of the Exchequer and Audit Act, 1956, and regulations framed thereunder are strictly adhered to throughout the homeland, Accounts Inspectors visit even the remotest district offices. I can assure the House, therefore, that control of public money, from the moment it is appropriated until the time it is spent, is in sound hands.

(e) Branch: Taxation: This Branch, which has grown out of a sub-division of the Treasury, will only be fully operative later in the year after the Public Service Commission has furnished appropriate staffing recommendations. In the 117

regarded as the yield on taxable income. Whilst statistics on this point are not readily available, it may reasonably be assumed that only a small minority of the Transkeian taxpayers contributing to this yield enjoy a taxable income in excess of R1 150 per annum (the point below which married taxpayers - even those without children ―― other than Bantu escape income tax). The vast majority will be married, have children and fall within the range R360 to R1 150 per annum. That being so, abolition of general tax and its substitution, by income tax (with all that that entails in terms of differential scales for married and unmarried persons, etc., etc.) will certainly free the majority of Transkeian taxpayers of all liability for payment of the new income tax. Our Revenue from the assessed taxation of individual citizens will thus be reduced to an insignificant amount - probably not more than R50 000.

meantime, however, budgetary provision for the changes has been made and the foundations for a centralised system of assessment are being laid by a taxation expert seconded from the Republic. Hitherto assessments of provisional taxpayers have been carried out in the 26 magistrates' offices but this has, for a variety of reasons, proved most unsatisfactory. As a result, considerable goodwill amongst taxpayers, not to mention revenue, has been lost. The Department of Justice concurs in the proposed centralisation. Naturally payments of taxes due will continue to be accepted by magistrates, all of whom will remain Receivers of Revenue. The centralisation of assessments will, therefore in no way inconvenience the public. Whilst on the subject of taxation, Mr Chairman, I wish to refer to proposals aimed at extending to Transkeian citizens liable to pay general tax based on taxable income, the system of rebates allowed to citizens of the Republic liable for income tax. In my budget speech on 27 March 1974, I indirectly warned Transkeians seeking to pay tax on the same basis as the White, Coloured and Indian groups that they could ultimately be letting themselves in for more than they bargained. I pointed out that the tax base of these other groups varied from year to year depending on the prevailing economic conditions and the demands of public expenditure, whereas Transkeians escaped entirely such fluctuations. When the Transkei needed more money to bridge an ever-growing deficit on current account it simply turned to the Republican Parliament for a larger additional sum to be appropriated in terms of Section 52( 1) (d) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 48 of 1963. These requisitions have thus far always been met - including that amounting to R40 million for 1974/1975. But if the Transkei voluntarily reduces its own revenue from general tax it follows that the loss will have to be made up by the Republican Parliament under Section 52( 1)(d) of our Constitution Act. And when hon. members have pondered the figures I will now give you, I believe you will come to the conclusion that we are likely to be rebuffed and deservedly so. Firstly we must understand that general tax of a fixed amount (R2,50 per annum payable by males eighteen years and older) and general tax based on taxable income (the latter the real bone of contention) are indivisible. Both are paid under the Transkei Taxation Act, No. 8 of 1969 which is identical in its scope and application to laws pertaining to Bantu taxation in the Republic. The rates of each take cognisance of the other as well as a host of other determinants. One cannot reduce the one without disturbing the validity of the reject the one, other. In essence it is a package deal you reject them both ipso facto. The second thing we must understand is that, of the slightly more than R5 000 000 we estimate to be a revenue from general tax (i.e. of a fixed amount as well as based on taxable income) in 1974/1975, only 14% (R900 000) will be collected within the Transkei. Fully 86% (R4 100 000) will be collected in the Republic by Republican Receivers of Revenue on our behalf. Now let us see what effect abolition of general tax will have on this revenue. Firstly, general tax of a fixed amount amounts to R1 118 272 (447 309 adult Transkeian males at R2,50 each). Take this away and it will mean that all collections from within the Transkei (R900 000) will be cancelled out - plus R218 272 of the amount collected in the Republic. The residue of Republican collections (R3 881 728) may be

Who will make up the lost millions? The Republic? I think not! A man who gives away his money cannot expect another to make up his loss. Do honourable members seriously expect it to be any different when a Government is so foolish? Moreover, in piloting the Transkeian Taxation Bill through the Assembly in 1969 I was at pains to explain the "whys" and "wherefores" of the taxation system then proposed ― particularly how the rates were arrived at. I refer honourable members to Hansard, 1969, page 77, 2nd column; page 218, 2nd column; page 219, 1st column. The explanations given then are equally valid today. I do not propose covering the same ground again. In a nutshell : Changes, as proposed, in the system of taxation presently applicable will lead to the loss of all but insignificant revenue from general tax; the loss is unlikely to be made up by the Republic and the Transkei could, to cap it all, forfeit even the residual taxation collected in the Republic because the Republic might well refuse to continue this agency service on the grounds that differential accounting would be too complicated. A few thousand indivduals may well benefit in the short term but, in the process, our credibility as a nation in earnest about standing on its own feet and our credit-worthiness in the international money market (which we may, either before or after independence, wish to enter) must suffer. I am sure honourable members cannot desire this result and I trust my Government's stand in the matter is now beyond doubt.

(f) Branch: Economic Planning: Regrettably, this Branch during the past year lost the services of both the Assistant Secretary (Professional) and his Transkeian understudy, both highlyqualified economists, through resignations. This has adversely affected the working of the Transkei Planning Committee on which heads of Transkeian departments as well as the Chairman of the Transkeian Townships Board and the Managing Director of the Xhosa Development Corporation serve. Fortunately, we are still able to turn to the professional staff of the Bureau for Economic Research re Bantu Development (BENBO) in Pretoria for assistance in the preparation of papers to be read at meetings of the Committee and also the functional allocation of the Estimates of Expenditure . I wish to place on record my Government's appreciation of this continuing support. The difficulty of securing and retaining the services of economists has led to my department deciding to rely more for economic advice on BENBO and to 118

concentrate locally more on the building up of professionally compiled statistics on the Transkei which will, in turn, prove invaluable to the Government, the X.D.C. and BENBO in formulating economic policy, including industrial development. The designation of the Branch will, therefore be suitably amended during the year. A professionally qualified senior statistician from the Republican Department of Statistics will shortly be assuming duty in Umtata on a seconded basis.

to quote the relevant rule, but I think the instruction must be in writing unless it is waived by the House. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I do not find any relevant regulations to this question. I think it is merely presumed that it has been delegated, so I will rule that the hon. member should ask the question and the hon. Minister shall answer it.

QUESTION No. 1 : Mr G. G. Kutu on behalf of Mr L. L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:

I am pleased to announce that, following representations to the X.D.C. by my department, the Corporation has agreed to reduce the effective interest rate on housing loans granted by the Corporation to inter alia Transkeian borrowers. Mortgages will be credited with 21% of interest which they paid during each period of twelve months provided their bond repayments have at all times been up to date. The effective bond rate will therefore be 5% at present, compared with the 91% charged by Building Societies. Details will be made known later. Honourable members will, I am sure, agree that this is a notable achievement on the part of my Government. I also wish to thank the X.D.C. for their sympathetic attitude towards our housing needs.

(a) In the Veterinary section of your department who are the Stock Inspectors (both white and Black) in the various Transkei districts (can these be named please as well as their ranks, qualifications and experience) ? (b) Regarding all the officers named above, who of the African Stock Inspectors have been promoted to the following ranks and when: (a) Stock Inspector Grade I, (b) Senior Stock Inspector, (c) Principal Stock Inspector, and (d) Chief Stock Inspector? (c) If none of the officers have been so promoted, why has this state of affairs been allowed to obtain?

Finally, the planning of Umtata and environs by the Planning Section of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development has reached an advanced stage. An important meeting of all the interested parties will be held in Umtata on the 22nd of this month under the chairmanship of the Secretary of my department. It is hoped final plans will be laid to coincide with the arrival of ESCOM electricity and integration with the national power grid. Umtata, our capital, is on the threshold of the most notable expansion in its entire history. Mr Chairman I now move that the policy of my Department be approved by this House. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman, seeing that the time is so far spent I move that you report progress to the Chairman of the House.

(d) What course and/or courses of training for the profession of a Stock Inspector have all the officers listed in (1) above, undergone?

REPLY : (a) The position of Stock Inspectors in the various Transkeian districts can be given as follows :

Senior Stock Inspector — 1 Stock Inspector Gr. I — 5 Stock Inspector Gr. II — 30 Stock Inspector Gr. III — 97 Of these, the Senior Stock Inspector, the 5 S.I.'s Gr. I and one Stock Inspector Gr. II post i.e. a total of 7 posts are filled by seconded officials.

As from 1/4/74 the position as regards posts will be as follows: Chief Stock Inspector ― 1 (a new post)

Senior Stock Inspector - 3 (two new posts) Stock Inspector Gr. I - 10 (five new posts)

House Resumed

The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 2nd April, 1974.

Stock Inspector Gr. II - 40 (ten new posts) Stock Inspector Gr. III - 105 (eight new posts)

TUESDAY, 2nd APRIL 1974

The names, qualifications and length of service of these officers are as follows: (See schedule) .

Prayers were read.

(b) a) Nil

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

b) Nil c) No post available

QUESTIONS

d) No post available. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, as you know, the hon. member for Engcobo was speared out of this House the other day and it would appear there is a question here standing in his name. Though we don't usually want to kick up a fuss about the delegation of questions from one member to another, in this particular case I think the House would like to know whether the hon. member, Mr Kutu, has authority to ask that question on behalf of Mr Mgudlwa. We shall have to resort to the rules of this House to find out as to whether, in fact, the hon. Mr Kutu has authority from the hon. Mr Mgudlwa to ask that question. Mr G. G. KUTU : Mr Chairman, when I met the hon. Mr Mgudlwa he requested me to act on his behalf and put the questions. We were talking together. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am not yet in a position

With regard to the above it can be added that as from 1/4/74 the number of posts of Stock Inspector Gr. I will be increased from 5 to 10, that of Senior Stock Inspector from 1 to 3 and one new post of Chief Stock Inspector created. (c) Up to 31/3/74, the number of promotion posts to S.I. Gr. I has been limited . This problem has now been solved, and as from 1/4/74 Transkeian citizens will be promoted into these posts. (d) Transkeian Stock Inspectors all have the Stock Inspectors Diploma issued by either the Fort Cox or the Tsolo College of Agriculture. The seconded Stock Inspectors all have undergone the course of training given by the Dept. of Agricultural Technical Services for Stock Inspectors, as

119

ཝཱ ཝ

་

STOCK INSPECTOR GRADE III Name Qualifications Experience A. N. Potelwa S.I. Diploma 20 years D. Zaula 20 "" "" M. Cembi 15 99 "" N. Mgudlwa 10 "" "" 10 "" M. Ngqengelele "" L. Ngculu 10 99 "9 S. Matshoba 9 99 99 H. Langa 9 "" 99 M. Ndyoko 9 99 H. Gwarube 9 99 "" R. Ntshanga 9 "" 99 H. Nyengani 9 "" " M. Mkutshulwa 9 "" "9 K. Ntswahlana 9 "" 19 G. Mbekeni 9 99 "" 9 "" S. Mtengwana 99 P. Mngxe 9 99 93 W. Sakaza 9 "9 "9 W. Ngubentombi 9 " 19 N. Matandabuzo 9 99 "" M. Gwababa 9 " M. Sigwela 99 99 W. Mbete 8 "9 "9 W. Ciya 8 99 99 M. Sodlulashe 8 99 "9 R. Vulindlela 8 "" 99 S. Mnyaka 8 "" "" M. Nomnqa 8 99 E. Racaga 8 99 "" I. Sodo 8 "" 99 B. Ncobo 8 99 W. Mbane "" 99 S. Somdyala "" O. Xaso 7 "9

"" 99 99 99 39 99 99 99 "" 99 39 39 "" 99 ""

"" "" 5, 99 "" 99 "" 99 "" "3 99 "" "" " "" "9

7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

99 99 "9 99 99 99 99 99 39 93 "9 "" 99 "9 99 "" "" ""

.

ཱ

99ཝ 99 "" "" "" "" "" "" "9 99 "" "9 "" "" 99 "" "" 99 " 99

Experience 22 years 21 "" 21 99 21 "" 21 39 20 99 20 99 "" "" 19 " 19 "" 19 " 19 99 19 "9 18 "" 17 "" 17 "" 16 99 16 99 16 "" 16 99 16 99 15 "" 15 "" 15 14 "9 14 "" 14 "" 10 99

ོ

Qualifications S.I. Diploma 99 99 "" "" 99 ""

200

I. Sonqwenqwe E. K. Maku N. G. Lugira J. S. Moleko N. D. Ntleki S. S. Tyali D. J. Ngwadla M. Jingqi J. O. J. Pinyana C. S. Sidlai N. Sishuba G. G. B. Dlanjwa М. М. Кара E. Maqashalala V. S. Nkonki N. M. Mnqandi N. S. Nonxaba A. N. Dumalisile G. Keswa D. L. Makupula P. M. Mabea F. S. Mkalali E. J. Nyezi C. Z. Bavuma I. C. G. Stemela A. M. Mbontsi W. Nonxaba V. M. Pinjana A. Tabohane

-

STOCK INSPECTOR GRADE II Name

99 99 "" 99 "" "" "" 93ཝ "" "9 39 99 "" "" "" "" 99 ""

"" "" "

"" 99 "" "" " "" "" "" "" " 99 99 "" "9 "" 99 99 "" "" "" 99 "" 99 99 99 "" 1 year 1 " 1 ""

444 4 44 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2

C. Ngceni D. Faku M. Mabengu N. Ncangala H. Ncangula H. Mdlankomo D. Heukile M. Sokupa W. Gabelana D. Fodo G. Nonkwanyaza B. Nkebe H. Nozulu B. Magadule S. Lusasa N. Ntshidi G. Fikeni R. S. Lekhetha L. Fumba G. Sodo C. Fuzile H. Mayekizo S. Mdlalo R. Somana L. Tsama D. Gobinca W. Mbingeleli D. Maji W. Makabane G. Mqojo M. Goniwe S. Vukuza T. Sicwebu W. Andries W. Bacela D. Mahlalatye G. Xashimba E. Mazilazila W. Mayeza W. Madubela C. Makaluza L. Mbili R. Dante W. Mgoqi M. Danisa E. N. Madalane N. Nonkonyana V. Vooi L. Masiko W. Mankahla G. Mkwalo M. Mjali M. Bango

well as further courses of formal in-service training. Transkei officials are as follows :

QUESTION No. 2: Mr N. Jafta asked the Chief Minister:

ཙ

∞ ∞

What is the reply of the Republican Government to the request of this House for a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad as reported on page 334 of the 1967 Hansard?

ཙ

REPLY :

∞

The request was conveyed to the Republican Government with the recommendation that it receive attention when the overall economic position permits it. No definite reply has so far been received and it is obvious therefore, that the conditions for the implementation of the request are not yet favourable.

∞

877

QUESTION No. 3: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :

120

(a) Is it the policy of your Department that in certain districts of the Transkei the first 40 beasts entering a dipping tank should be dipped twice, one round after the other, with the excuse that they are agitating the dip in the tank or is it a directive from the Stock Inspectors themselves or is it an instruction from their immediate supervisors?

QUESTION No. 6: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education: What is the maximum accommodation capacity of the Efata School for the deaf, dumb and blind? In view of the large number of children who are deaf, dumb and blind is there any programme of expansion at the school to take in most of the applicants for admission?

(b) If it is the policy of the Department why is it not applied in the Transkei as a whole?

REPLY: REPLY :

The maximum practical and economic capacity of the Eftata School for the Deaf, Dumb and Blind is 300 pupils, this being the number for which the school is catering at present. The capital works in progress at the school are aimed at completing the required amenities to accommodate this capacity intake. A school of this nature is an expensive and specialised undertaking and no plans are envisaged for the immediate future to provide an additional school of this nature.

(a) This is not a policy matter at all. The dip wash used viz Delnav is a suspension and is inclined to settle out between dipping days. The manufacturers of the dip advise that about 40 beasts be put through the dip to agitate it properly . These animals are then dipped again to receive the benefit of a properly mixed dip. This is not an instruction, nor are any owners forced to do it, the Stock Inspectors merely ask the owners to assist in mixing the dip in this way. This procedure does not harm the animal in any way.

APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee of supply to consider the Appropriation Bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.

(b) This system is followed throughout the Transkei where Delnav dip is used. QUESTION No. 4:

Chief S. Majeke asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :

Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , was begun . Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I rise to make a few comments on the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister. The hon. Minister made reference to the position of the Whites and Coloureds in the new Transkei and he indicated that he had made his standpoint clear. I must say that he has not at all made his standpoint clear on the position of these two groups. The other day I was talking to a Coloured friend who is in Durban and who is desirous of coming to the Transkei. This man is a qualified engineer and a man of experience. He wanted to know what his future was in the new Transkei I ask: What is his future?

(a) Whether the Minister is aware of the scarcity of water both for human consumption and for stock consumption in the following Administrative Areas : Balasi, Upper Culunca, Nxotwe, Middle Tyira and Upper Tyira in the Qumbu District? (b) If so whether consideration has been given to erecting boreholes in these areas as a matter of urgency, and the use of pipes for water distribution to the communities? REPLY:

I am not aware of a scarcity of water for domestic purposes in Balasi, Upper Culunca, Nxotwe, Middle Tyira and Upper Tyira Administrative Areas as this has not been reported to my Department through the Agricultural Officers of the Areas concerned which is the correct procedure to be followed.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : He is a nephew. Mr MADIKIZELA: The hon. the Minister of Justice says that is a nephew. I suppose he is referring to the Coloured people as nephews . Have they a secure place in the Transkei? At times the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that he is against the Whites, against the Coloureds ... MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I have never said that about the Coloureds.

In the planning reports for the areas only four boreholes were proposed but five have been drilled and equipped. A sixth borehole was drilled in Lower Tyira but could not be sealed due to the aggression of the people and under the circumstances no further work will be done in that area for the time being. Please note: Although Lower Tyira is not mentioned in the question, Upper, Middle and Lower Tyira are planned as a unit. Hence, mention is made of the attitude of the people at Lower Tyira.

Mr MADIKIZELA : At other times he has shown himself conciliatory towards these people. I would like to ask the hon. the Chief Minister to make this point quite clear to these groups.

QUESTION No. 5:

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The position of the Coloured in the Transkei is quite clear. It came out in the papers the other day.

Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior: Is it correct that persons who have contracted T.B. in the Transkei do not qualify for a disability grant? If so, why is this so?

Mr MADIKIZELA : So many things come out in the papers in regard to the Chief Minister.

No. Many disability grants are presently being paid to T. B. sufferers who are considered to be unfit for work on the open labour market.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am talking about this particular aspect. Mr MADIKIZELA: If the hon. the Chief Minister welcomes the Coloureds and perhaps the Whites, then he is embracing the policy of multi-racialism.

The assessment of their degree of disablement should be at least fifty percent.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Embracing it and accepting it are two different things.

REPLY :

121

Mr MADIKIZELA: If these men are being transferred from the Republic then they are experienced men ...

Mr MADIKIZELA: He could even be accepting it. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Well , don't use ambiguous words.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is your yardstick for efficiency? Mr MADIKIZELA : and they should be capable of running the service in the Transkei. What yardstick have you used?

Mr MADIKIZELA: Further, the hon. the Chief Minister made mention of terrorism and with the same breath he said something about communism. This creates the impression that with him terrorism and communism are synonymous terms. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Not necessarily. One may be inspired by the other. Mr MADIKIZELA: Now, the word "communism" in South Africa what does it mean?

MINISTER OF FINANCE : We haven't a Department of Information. Mr MADIKIZELA : Also, mention was made of urban boards. These boards are to try cases arising out of Bantu law and custom. Are these boards specially

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Go to the definition under the Communism Act of 1950 and you will get it. Mr MADIKIZELA: And what is the definition of the term "communism" in this Chamber? Whenever the Government party disagree with us on this side they label us communists. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We don't label you. We know who the fellow-travellers of communism are on that side.

qualified perhaps for this work they are going to undertake? We note with pleasure the fact that certain salary increases have been mentioned by the hon. the Chief Minister in respect of certain persons . We shall know at the end of the month what the word "substantial" means when used by the hon. the Chief Minister. (Laughter) MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Unfortunately you cannot talk about it now.

Mr MADIKIZELA : I am sure nobody in this Chamber likes anarchy or revolution. Nobody supports these acts of terrorism of which we hear so often - these acts being used as a means of solving the problems of South Africa. We all of us prefer peaceful means. MINISTER OF FINANCE: Do you take exception to my remarks on communism and terrorism? Mr MADIKIZELA : To the use of the two terms as synonymous .

Mr MADIKIZELA : We join hands with the hon. the Chief Minister in regretting the lack of activity on the part of the tribal authorities - that these tribal authorities are not acting as efficiently as could be expected. This is indeed a great pity because there is a lot that these bodies can and are expected to do for our people if only they applied themselves. As it happens, these bodies fall under the direct charge of the hon. the Chief Minister and we hope he will be able by some means to put life into them. We note with pleasure the amount of money voted for scholarships , as also the increase in the number of officers for the Government. The hon. the Chief Minister mentioned that the department is conducting training courses for the department. (Time up)

MINISTER OF FINANCE : Do you take exception to what I said? Mr MADIKIZELA : I agree with you but I want you to get your definitions right. We want peace in this land. We want happiness in this land. We on this side of the House have gone as far as saying our interest is in a united South Africa, a place of equal opportunity. Further, Sir, the hon. the Chief Minister made reference to the services of the seconded officials. We are sincerely grateful for the services of these men to the Transkei. Over the years they have rendered good service and we trust that during the time they have been here they have been able to prepare the citizens of the Transkei for the coming take-over. We trust every one of them has had some Transkeian citizen as a man to understudy him so that when the posts they hold come to be advertised there will be men fit to take over. We also appreciate the transfer of the Information Branch from the Republic to the Transkei. This is a sign of growth and development, but one is minded to ask why it is necessary to import a white official to give training to the information officers of the Transkei.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that the hon. member who has just been ordered to sit down -- that is, the hon. member for Ngqeleni - is taking the place of the Leader of the Opposition I would move that we waive the rules so that he should exhaust himself as much as possible. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second that, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.

Mr MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much for the indulgence. I was saying that the hon. the Chief Minister mentioned there was some special training being carried out by the department for the civil servants of the Transkei. I thought the seconded officials were doing this, Sir. Is that not correct? Sir, with the hon. the Chief Minister we regret very much the incidence of misconduct amongst our people and indeed we would endorse the severe measures that he has in mind to combat this scourge; only, one would like to know what the general causes are for this type of conduct amongst our officers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : Why is it wrong? What is your objection to that? Mr MADIKIZELA: These men who are being transferred into the Information Service of the Transkei are men who have been in the Information Service for a very long time.

Mr W. S. MBANGA : Mr Chairman and hon. members before I emphasize the strong points in the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister I must commend the hon. acting Leader of the Opposition for his ability to put forward the support of the motion in the language of the Opposition. It is his duty and business to say in the language of the Opposition how good the Government is, and this he has done very well indeed . We have listened with pleasure, satisfaction and

MINISTER OF FINANCE: We are following your policy of multi-racialism. Mr MADIKIZELA : Our multi-racial policy does not presuppose a white man at the top.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: What does it presuppose? In terms of your policy you are not supposed to have one man, one vote.

122

the Chief Minister I have very little to say, except, of course, that I would reserve some criticism for certain aspects of the speech. Now, Mr Chairman, I wanted to comment on the failures of the lower authorities. I have actually attended some of these meetings and the low standard in the discussions of these authorities is very alarming. There is that element of irresponsibility in some of the members of these lower authorities and one wonders what can be done to inject a bit of responsibility into the veins of these members. You take the regional authorities, for example. The regional councillors are supposed to be of the status of provincial councillors in our present set-up, and one would have expected some seriousness in the work carried out by these authorities because there is so much work they are expected to dispose of. You take, for example, the question of scholarships. I am aware of certain cases where a scholar deserves to be given priority because of the intelligence of the particular child and perhaps because of the financial position of the parents or guardian of the particular child, and because that particular child is born of parents unknown to the members of the region, perhaps, that application is ignored . I am aware of certain cases where a child is known to such members of the region and that child is given first priority when, in actual fact, on the score of intelligence that child does not deserve that scholarship. That sense of irresponsibility is being demonstrated right inside this House, Mr Chairman, and I do not know whether I should place the blame on the composition of these regional authorities because, as you know, we have all those ex officio members who are showing irresponsibility right inside this House. Perhaps the hon. the Chief Minister has the antidote. Please let us know. Now, on page 20 there is the question of advertising for posts in the Transkei Government. It reads that people who are Xhosa-speaking will be considered in the application.

delight when he emphasized the strong points of the seconded officers of the Republican Government. Now, in regard to the Chife Minister's speech I want to draw the attention of the hon. members to the increase mentioned in the hon. Minister's speech of 12 %. It is to be regretted, Mr Chairman, that each time a matter of this level is considered very few can appreciate the seriousness of the matter. A gross increase of 121% on the past vote is an indication of a very good point in general matters - continuity. This indication of such continuity is a guarantee that the Government is in very safe and able hands. Moreover, such continuity goes to establish the stability of the life of a people who should be contented with their Government. This will take us to another point and remind us of a remark made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition last week when the hon. the Chief Minister presented his budget speech. At the time the hon. the Chief Minister had mentioned how he, from time to time, related his own vote to the votes of the other departments. Another strong point in the policy speech was the hon. Minister's mention of financial provision to establish a new Information Department service. It will be remembered that at present most countries are faced with terroristic invasions of one type or another. If the foresight of our hon. Chief Minister is meeting the case then we have cause to be happy and satisfied, because at present those bodies and associations which are hostile to the Republic are busy and very determined, too, to employ these selfsame individuals for active and clandestine attacks against this country. He went on to say that since the enemies of the Republic were the enemies of the Transkei, then maintenance of cordial relations between the two was an all-important factor. Reference has been made to the multifarious services rendered by the seconded staff to this emergent country of the Transkei. These services, we admit, have been rendered under most trying conditions at times . Nevertheless, such conditions are always identifiable with the conditions of an emergent country. With regard to the misconduct of our staff, as reported by the Public Service Commission, I as chairman of the select committee can give the guarantee to the House that steps - drastic measures -are being taken to see that a recurrence or perpetration of this malpractice will have to stop forthwith. However, in all these countries these malpractices bedevil the State and since the Controller and AuditorGeneral and his department are directly responsible to this House there should be no alternative to the House but to accept that the finances of this House are again in very safe hands. On the question of inefficiency and failures of local authorities, I would put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the responsible heads of such authorities. By responsible heads I mean the magistrates of the districts. I have said the blame rests squarely on the heads of such officials , and since all the hon. members of this Assembly are ex officio members of these lower authorities the same blame can be fairly and squarely placed on their shoulders. To start destructively criticizing finances at this high level can be regarded as very unfair of this House. So long as there are people who are according these heavy continous rains to , with due respect, the Chief Minister - to Matanzima; so long as there are people who blame the breakdown of the lighting system to Matanzima; so long as there are people who ascribe the dowry of their babies to Matanzima (Laughter) and forget to put forward the pragmatism, the resilience of our hon. Chief Minister, they have missed the point. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, speaking extempore on the policy speech of the hon.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : In my speech I said "Xhosa and Sotho-speaking Transkeians" . Mr ZIBI : I wanted to comment on that because I was trying to recall the incident of that stupid occurrence in the region. By the way then, what happens in the event of a man being Zulu-speaking and living in a region such as Umzimkulu? What is the position about such a candidate? Now, there is the question of the interest by the XDC. The XDC has been repeatedly attacked to this House for its attitude towards the Transkeian people who incidentally happen to have had loans from them. By the way, Mr Minister, what is the attitude of the XDC to a man who wants money from them to open up a bottlestore, perhaps, or a trading shop and does not have any security? He gets there and mentions the name of the Chief Minister perhaps and asks that he can have money. Can they allow him to have the money he wants if the stock in that shop is used as security in case anything goes wrong? I would be happy for the hon. the Chief Minister to comment on that in his reply. Finally, with the question of the finances of the Transkei there is that item of the allowances given to the respective Ministers of our state. How are these allowances administered? Supposing the hon . the Minister of Agriculture does not entertain anybody throughout the year, what happens to the amount? And what happens if the hon. the Minister of Education is visited by my daughter who goes to see his daughter - are there vultures there? I am worried about the vultures for the spending of that money. I will be happy if the hon. the Minister of Finance in his reply would have a word just to show how these amounts are administered. We cannot, as has been said, comment favourably on 123

the proposed increment to members, chiefs, etc. , until this has been seen. Personally I have always felt that there was no justifiable reason at all why the Ciskeians are better paid than we are in the Transkei . Though I appreciate the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister when he said that certain Governments suspend certain services for humanity in general for the sake of improvement to their own salaries, yet I want to say that charity begins at home. In closing I would be happy if the hon. Minister did make a comment for the information of the House with regard to scholarships for students who go to Fort Hare. We would like to know what the prerequisites are for those scholarships. Mr T. M. MAKAULA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to make a few remarks in connexion with the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister. We congratulate the Government of the Transkei for the progress it has achieved and for its efforts to make work opportunities available to the Transkeians in industry. Whilst this Government has been in power it has been able to reduce the taxation on the people. We also thank the Government for increasing the amount of the old-age pensions. We should request the hon. the Chief Minister to increase the stipends of the chiefs so that the chiefs should be respected by the people and so that they should not go and look for employment elsewhere because the wages here are too low. We wish our Government well in its efforts for the upliftment of the people. We are against the motion that the salary of the hon. Minister should be reduced. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I just wish to make a few observations on the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance. His speech was long but I will take only a few points which I have observed. On page 7 he says: "The position in South Africa is such that neither Black nor White can afford to harbour petty feelings of hatred and revenge. White and Black will have to work out the future of South Africa together because we will have to live together on one sub-continent. We will be interdependent and if the future is to hold any advantage for any of us we will have to live together harmoniously." To me this speech differs from his policy because his policy is separation of the races and here he speaks of staying together and he also speaks of petty grievances and petty apartheid . All these to me are one and the same, because whether it is petty apartheid or petty grievances they all mean apartheid, and apartheid is rejected by this side. MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are out of order altogether. Go to school to learn English. Mr JAFTA: I am referring to your policy speech . On page 13 the hon. Minister speaks of a very gloomy position in regard to tribal authorities. This has been canvassed by nearly all the hon. members in the House and mention is made in the policy speech of the gloomy picture revealed by an inspection of the position. As far as we know the headmen are in the majority in these bodies and a headman is always considered as a chief by the tribe. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where?

these things are neglected . In this respect I think something should be done and I think one of the members of the tribal authority should be chosen as chairman according to the merits of the man. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What does your tribal authority Proclamation say? Mr JAFTA: I am talking about things that are not done. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are talking about things that should be done. Mr JAFTA: This is a very regrettable affair. Coming to the Treasury Branch, it is very welcome to the members of the House that it is running smoothly and I hope all the Transkeians who are in this branch will follow suit when the time comes for them to take over. MINISTER OF FINANCE : What about the white Transkeians?

Mr JAFTA: I say they should follow the example set today. Coming to page 23 I will refer to the computer. It has been found that this computer is making lots of mistakes. Whether I know the computer or not it is immaterial , but I know this is happening. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where? Mr JAFTA: There are many mistakes in the Education Department and the report is always that the computer is wrong . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The computer is never wrong, it is the people who supply it with material who are wrong. Mr JAFTA: A good many of the teachers did not get their pay and in many instances they got the wrong amount. The results of the Std 6 examinations come so late and the fault, we are told, is with the computer . Well, it may be that the staff is inefficient and therefore we cannot praise them for good work because this is affecting the people. The control of public moneys by the Accounts Branch is welcomed by everybody. We are grateful to the XDC for the reduction of the interest rate to people who want loans from them, because it has been one of the big cries of the people who wish to borrow money in order to buy homes and so on. Many other items have been canvassed and I will not say more except that we welcome some of the points mentioned. Mr D. H. MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I can quite understand the heckling of the Opposition because this is natural to their character, but it soon vanishes into thin air and we can understand that it is no more than the vapour you get from the back pipe of a car which exhausts the energy of a couple of our friends over there. (Laughter) Now, this is where we are. We are discussing a policy speech from the hon. the Chief Minister which to some extent has been dovetailed with the debate on the motion of no confidence. Immediately I want to point out that it is a compliment indeed that some of the hon. members of the Opposition have used terms such as "credit", "welcome" , etc., in regard to the Government; but however much credit they give, the hon. members of the Opposition try to give the impression that there is no change in the world and yet this is indeed something for which everybody has got to pray. (Interjections) The hon. member referred to the omission by the hon. the Chief Minister of certain points he raised in his no-confidence debate, such as terrorism and communism, Black and White relations in this country, seconded officials and the work of his department. One would therefore expect that the Opposition would not only criticize but

Mr JAFTA: All over. MINISTER OF FINANCE: It is not like that in Tembuland. Mr JAFTA: As these people are considered as chiefs, no-one can point a finger at them and say: You are wrong there. It is quite true that the moneys alloted by the Government are not used effectively because the roads are in a bad state and there are no clinics . All 124

would substitute something wholesome. Empty criticism as such is not only meaningless but a thorough waste of time, particularly when it comes to things which appear to be unchangeable. Let us take, for instance, the pronouncements of the hon. member for Ngqeleni. At the bottom of his heart he literally believes that the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei vacillates. You must know that this hon. member has never studied physiology. He illustrates for his point the statement by the hon. Minister on the Coloured question in the Transkei. I am not going to say repeatedly what I have said before that it is my sincere conviction that what Napoleon said is true, that only a fool changes his mind. I say this because I wish the Opposition to take note of this fact too in their criticisms, that their assessment of definitions is ambiguously understood. It is not only unpalatable but it is completely unacceptable to this House. When asked in the form of an interjection by the hon. the Chief Minister, the hon. member for Ngqeleni refused to say whether he associated communism with terrorism. Coming to the next point I would honestly be as thickheaded and thickskinned as any animal if I did not point out the illogicality of the Opposition members in saying "Hurray" when the seconded officials are not being brought into this set-up. Precisely what they advocate in their policy is offered to them here, but they say "To hell with it". Please may I suggest explicitly that they would not say that to their own wives in their own homes. Before we go to lunch, Mr Chairman, here are some of the points we appreciate in this policy speech. The declaration of equal rights has been enunciated here in no uncertain terms . The next leap from here will be independence and I must indeed commend the hon. the Chief Minister for this as all on this side of the House commend him. We also appreciate the way in which he has closed every loophole against the Opposition side who, when the road is clear for them and for their own people towards independence, can se nothing but Red. They criticize a man who only states his policy and shows the weaknesses he does not want to hide, and still these people cannot understand that this man has done so much within an infinitesimal period of ten years. Isn't that ridiculously unappreciated ? The debate was adjourned.

an impracticable policy. Among other matters raised by the hon. the Chief Minister was the question of urban representatives. Included among their duties they have to decide matter pertaining to civil cases. One begins to have doubts now, because it has been categorically stated that there are five urban representatives and yet in the Transkei we have nine regions whose customs are not identical with each other. One might ask how the magistrates come to arbitrate in such matters, but the magistrates are trained in the law and they have had training in the customs of these different tribes. I would suggest that it would be more equitable if these urban representatives were elected according to regions, because that would meet the custom requirements of each region. MINISTER OF FINANCE: There are four representatives, one in Johannesburg, one in Cape Town, one in the Free State . . . CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMSE: We are rather hazy as to the proper functions of these urban representatives and it is most desirable that we should be made familiar with their respective functions. If no provision has been made for relationships between employer and employee so that these urban representatives are able to bridge the gap and bring about good relations between the two parties then it is our request that this line should be followed. It was mentioned during your policy speech that salary increments were to be made to civil servants, chiefs, headmen, members of the Legislative Assembly and other employees under the Government. When one scrutinizes the salaries or stipends of certain chiefs it appears that some of them do not earn much more than R20 a month. Sir, in consideration of what these chiefs are required to do and the service they perform to the public, is it not feasible and appropriate that this minimum should be raised to R30 or R40 a month? Among other things the hon. Minister mentioned that rations were given to certain chiefs and we would rather we did away with that item. Chiefs and headmen are usually given presents in the form of brifcases, Bibles and so on. Instead of showering such gifts this amount could be used to good purpose as an impetus bonus to chiefs and headmen who perform their duties well towards the people. We have discovered that the spirit of the chiefs and headmen is dampened because there is no incentive for them to work. It is alleged that even the councillors who constitute the membership of the tribal authorities are lazy. Imagine this situation : A man has to travel miles and miles to a tribal centre and he is not paid travelling expenses. What is there to encourage him to attend these meetings? (Interjections) The magistrates do not allow the tribal secretaries to carry sufficient petty cash to pay members who attend the tirbal autho-

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and Finance, was resumed. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, we have scanned the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister and among other things he mentioned the question of independence. One would like to ask what lines this independence will follow. Will there be a demarcation on the lines of colour? The hon. Minister is mounted on the saddle of separate development and a rider who is used to the mannerisms of a certain horse will cling to that horse even if he rides with it to perdition. We now begin to harbour an enxiety that when we gain independence this horse will be ridden in the same direction as before against the white people. Broadly interpreted, it means that we shall be breathing vengeance against the white person and we do not agree with that. In short, two wrongs never make a right. We expect that there should be one universal law for the Whites, for the Coloureds and for the Blacks. They should all enjoy equally whatever rights are enjoyed by a Transkeian citizen in order to demonstrate to the Republican Government that the policy. of separate development can never succeed and that is

rity meetings . Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I shall confine myself to the following aspects of the hon. the Chief Minister's policy speech - namely, terrorism and Black/White relations. The subject of terrorism has been placed in his speech at the top . To me the arrangement is an appropriate one and suggests the seriousness with which this question of terrorism has to be approached or regarded by this House. The question asked by enemies of separate development and, by the way, by the enemies of separate development I do not refer to the hon. members of the Opposition who are here in this House and operating within the framework of the Transkei Constitution which is based on the separate development policy - as I said, a big question from the enemies of separate develop-

125

hon. members, in his policy speech the hon. the Chief Minister indicated to this House that the inspector of tribal authorities is dissatisfied with the state of affairs in those bodies. What could be expected, because the heads of the tribal authorities have not been trained to carry out such things as bookkeeping? This is an innovation to us and occasionally we receive departmental lectures on the subject. In regard to the magistrates I would urge that they should also try to give lectures, but at present they do not try to assist the chiefs in this way. The magistrates are only too delighted to find fault when scrutinizing the books, then he scolds the chief or headmen who shivers, to the delight of the magistrate. The magistrate never even tries to visit the tribal authorities in order to guide these people. Instead of that he just wants to jump on them like a thousand bricks, make them shiver and enjoy watching them shiver. I know the heads of authorities should be criticized as well as the magistrates, because the Department has issued sufficient grants to build clinics and repair the roads. I was told there is a certain magistrate who is keen to assist the tribal authorities, the secretaries and the like. The majority of the tribal authorities are not even aware that there are sufficient funds to carry on with the work in their districts when they make a requisition. They are totally unaware of that, and the magistrate should inform them. Mr Chairman, there a particular ite mthat is always delayed in the administrative areas and that is the erection of school buildings. These buildings are not erected owing to the fact that the heads of regions are not informed about that particular aspect. The magistrates have a great deal of work to do, including court work, supervising the management of the clinics and the roads. I would suggest that the responsibility for health should be bestowed on the district surgeon who should have staff to assist him. Progress has been made in education because there are inspectors in each district, but the erection of the buildings is still dependent upon the magistrate and I do not know why. Mr Chairman, it is clear to everyone that there is a great shortage of teachers and for that reason scholarships should be awarded to pupils who have passed Std 6 and also those who have passed matric. If the more intelligent children are thus assisted to continue their education the shortage of teachers could be overcome in time. Still on the topic of education, the amount allocated in this connexion is far too small to satisfy the needs of this department. If the Government could spend R30 or more per child per year, things would improve a little. Even this amount of R30 per pupil is far less than that spent on white and Coloured children, which is close on R100. If we ourselves make no effort to improve conditions in regard to education, who else will do so? Coming to the question of labour, it is pointed out in the Transkei Annual that every year there are never less than 50 000 workseekers . Employment is found for about 4 000, but 11 000 workseekers are not assimilated. We suggest that it is the duty of the Transkeian Government to do all in its power to find employment for our sons. They look to the Government for relief as far as employment is concerned . We also wish to point out that in the Transkei we should have no job reservation.

ment is: Why does the Transkei ally itself with white South Africa against terrorism instead of adopting perhaps a neutral stand against terrorism? The crux of the matter is that terrorism is no respecter of persons, regardless of colour or race — not unless, of course, a person's creed is the same as that of the terrorists. They cause destruction wherever they are and wherever they move. As anarchists they destroy everybody and everything. They destroy government forces, civilians and property alike. A recent incident that took place in the Centenary district of Rhodesia is a solid proof of terrorist tactics. The terrorists ambushed a certain village in this district and butchered the family of a certain chief, pregnant women and a countless number of children, and it was reported that the terrorists engaged in this unspeakable and merciless act of barbarism because the residents of that particular village refused to co-operate with the terrorists. This is exactly what the hon. members of this House have to consider. If the terrorists succeed in breaking the resistance of the South African forces and penetrate right inside the Republic of South Africa they would make a clean sweep not only of Pietersburg but also of the Transkei, unless of course we Transkeians will agree with their creed and we give them food and shelter and moral support. Another point on which the hon. the Chief Minister deserves unlimited commendation is his ability to correlate terrorism and communism and to see these two movements as birds of a feather really flocking together. A short story will illustrate the hon. Minister's point of view in drawing no line of demarcation between terrorism and communism. When I was campaigning on the Rand last year I met an enlightened intelligent constable who had been across the borders. He spoke as an eye-witness and with a degree of authenticity that merited my belief. He painted a very gloomy picture of what is developing in Zambia, saying that the Chinese workmen and technicians undertaking the construction of the coastal rail-link between Tanzania and Zambia brought with them an astonishing number of Chinese girls who later gave birth to an equally alarming number of Chinese nephews and nieces. (Laughter) The impression created by this picture is that in a few years to come Zambia will be ruled by Chinese nephews, and you know what happens when the King of France marries the Queen of Italy― one day a nephew of Italy will sit on the throne of France. Mr Chairman, in view of these developments the policy of the hon. the Chief Minister on this question of terrorism should be approved by this House, then when we assume independence sooner or later in the Transkei we shall feel secure. With regard to Black / White relations in the Transkei, his policy speaks for itself. In fact, it has been his policy for years to exercise patience in order to give himself time to handle Transkeian affairs with an unparallelled diplomatic skill. Chief Gatsha has said of our Chief Minister (I shall not quote his exact words) : A Xhosa is like Kaffir beer which cannot remain too long in the stomach. (Laughter) "We are appealing to all Transkeians to let these seconded officials always feel welcome and not to be over-hasty about their replacement." This is what the hon. the Chief Minister said in his policy speech, and he is therefore fostering good relations between Whites and Blacks not only in the Transkei but also in South Africa as a whole, which good relations will be a legacy to our independent Transkei. Mr Chairman, it is on these grounds that I support the policy speech of the hon. the Chief Minister and appeal to the hon. members of this House to approve it. Thank you, Sir. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and

MINISTER OF FINANCE: There is no job reservation. CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Chief Minister has been telling us that the white officials must be replaced by black. Is that not job reservation?

126

MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, that is policy. CHIEF: S. M. LEBENYA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy spccch of the hon. the Chief Minister. I do so on these grounds : The hon. Minister has mentioned that the Blacks should work hard so that the Transkei can develop and we should work peacefully together so that by the time we reach independence we shall have prosperity in the Transkei. The hon. the Chief Minister has made mention of the fact that there are certain people occupying posts in the Transkei and those posts will be open to the Transkeian citizens later. We are happy too that the hon. Minister has increased the salaries of the chiefs. We are sure everybody is happy about that. One thing that does not please me is that certain of the tribal authorities misappropriate funds. I speak as the head of a tribal authority. It is true that some of the tribal authorities misappropriate these funds but I think with the increment of the salaries of the chiefs this practice will come to an end. I will suggest that some of the tribal authority heads should be given training before they are appointed to act, because you will find that some of these tribal heads are people with no ability to administer these funds. As a result this money is being misused by these authorities. I speak the truth and I hope everyone understands that I am speaking the truth. I am not trying to criticise the chiefs. It is high time that we train our chiefs so that they can lead the people in the right way and then when the time comes to govern ourselves we shall be able to administer the funds for the benefit of the people of the Transkei. These moneys are set aside to build our clinics and to develop certain roads and so on. I shall not say much about this policy speech because we seem to be in agreement with the Opposition on the matter. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Who said that?

you want to grow old you had better collect your grandchildren round you. The land question also is one at which we have nibbled and never looked at objectively. MINISTER OF FINANCE : There is a motion on that. Mr GUZANA: But you have stated that you have dealt with these matters. Why did you say you have Idealt with them? MINISTER OF FINANCE: But there is a motion coming on that. Mr GUZANA: In his policy speech the hon. the Chief Minister says : "I feel it would be pointless to refer once again to matters such as my Government's stand on independence, the land question, separate development as such, the position of Whites and Coloureds in a future independent Transkei. These matters have been sufficiently canvassed . . ." They have not. (Interjections) So I shall not be persuaded to accept these things as having been dealt with when they have not been dealt with. MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are discussing motions on the order paper.

Mr GUZANA: But you have no right to suggest that these matters have been dealt with already. That is what you have said and I am joining issue with you on that point. MINISTER OF FINANCE: You cannot discuss a motion which is going to be tabled. Mr GUZANA : I am not discussing the motion. What I am saying is that it has been alleged that these matters have been disposed of (Interjections) so I have raised this issue and want to state quite clearly that nobobdy should be under the impression . . .. MINISTER OF FINANCE: It has been dealt with under the vote of no confidence. You spoke at length about it.

CHIEF LEBENYA: In your caucus you have agreed to this already. I could mention certain names but I shall not do so. However, the hon. member who

Mr GUZANA : It has not been dealt with because we have a motion on it too. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Pass on.

deputized for you agreed with the policy speech. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: On certain items. CHIEF LEBENYA: If I speak the truth and your leader spoke the truth we are in agreement on this. Mr GUZANA: I have not spoken yet.

Mr GUZANA: On the question of independence, too, we have been left in the air about these matters, and the position of the Whites and the Coloureds in the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I will request that the interpreter should interpret for me and me alone.

CHIEF LEBENYA: What your deputy said is just as if it came from you. I suggest we agree to the policy speech of the hon . Minister.

CHAIRMAN: That is quite true. The interpreter must interpret for the speaker. Mr ĠUZANA: And so the field is still wide open and our minds should be kept quite clear on the issues which still have to be canvassed. Quite a lot has been said about terrorism and nobody will condone or acquiesce to terrorist activities, but I have the impression that most of us think of terrorism as being purely physical.

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I suppose when we discuss matters of this nature we have to speak truthfully, and my attention has been drawn to rule 33(b) on page 7 of the rules of procedure. I quote: “During a sitting a member shall be uncovered while in the Assembly . . ." I am surprised that we have not had any streaking demonstrations in this House in view of that rule (Laughter), in order to present to this House the bare facts of life. Mr Chairman and hon. members, many things have been taken for granted relating to the policy of the Government and the suggestion has been made that certain matters need not be spelt out adequately because they have been dealt with before now. Hence we allow people to discuss this policy speech in a state of confusion as between independence and freedom. (Interjections I am making mention of this fact because it has been taken for granted that all that could be said about it has been said, and my submission is that very little has been said about it which ought to be said. (Interjections) I don't want old men to grow old on me. (Laughter) If

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mental terrorism, abstract terrorism . Mr GUZANA: There is terrorism of the mind, terrorism of the soul, where a person is told : You will not do this or else . . .

MINISTER OF FINANCE: Is this a declaration of human rights? Mr GUZANA: And so his own personal actions are conditioned by threatened consequences and one wonders whether or not, in the present situation where powers tend to vest in the executive, terrorism is not practised not only in South Africa but also in other parts of the world; so that "You shall not do this, you shall not think this way, you shall not speak that way"

127

otherwise you are going to be called either a fellowtraveller with communists or you are going to be called a communist.

Minister to know that these people are living under very difficult circumstances. Some of those people have properties and others wish to put up buildings. These people say they are meeting a difficulty because when they go to the magistrate to apply to put up certain buildings they are told they have no right to live there. (Interjections) I do not encourage the idea that the Coloured people should be required to obtain reference books. These people are Coloured and I would that the hon. the Chief Minister should allocate a place for them where they can live. They should be given something definite. At present that is not being granted to them. I will pass on now to the question of terrorists. Much has been said about terrorism and this is what I want to bring to the notice of the hon. the Chief Minister - the question of our children when they are banned in the Republic. It is alleged that this banning is due to terrorism. What we want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Chief Minister is that he should see to it that the citizens of the Transkei are consulted before any Transkeians are banned from the Republic. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : I second the amendment.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: Come to the point. Mr GUZANA: It is just as well, therefore, to remember that whilst we condemn physical terrorism we must also likewise condemn intellectual and moral terrorism . MINISTER OF FINANCE : Draw up a bill of rights. Mr GUZANA: Now, you know that I have been given homework to draw up a bill of rights to incorporate in the Constitution, and I shall certainly do that on behalf of this House. Let us not pretend that separate development has had minor disabilities. Let us call them major disabilities, that indeed we have seen a diminution of the rights of the individual, particularly those who are not white, and people have been made lesser beings because of separate development. And we ask, we say, we declare ourselves to be against terrorism. What of that terrorism? None of us will ever harbour terrorists, none of us will ever create a situation that will invite terrorists, none of us will ever succour terrorists who think they are going to substitute their form of government for our form of growth into human citizens of South Africa. Mr P. PAKAMILE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with all the developments which have been accomplished by the Government of the Transkei for this nation in the last ten years. The chiefs used to be paid quarterly and that has been stopped by this Government. Today the chiefs are paid monthly and that is the result of the work of our present Government. I wish to encourage the hon. the Minister of Finance to improve conditions among my people. I will stop there, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I wonder if we have not come to a stage where the mover of the amendment should come up with it now. I feel this is an opportune moment for the mover to move his amendment.

CHIEF W. G. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to oppose this amendment. I think it is quite clear and obvious even to the public that this amendment which has been brought into the House by the mover should have been proposed in a beer gathering. (Laughter) As far as we are concerned, the hon. the Chief Minister should be an example in this House. He should therefore lead and also lead in salary. He is the highest authority here and all these departments are under him, and he should therefore be an example. I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, another point I desire to canvass is this: During these times in which we experience difficulty in the Transkei these people are embarking on largescale petrol restrictions, so much so that people cannot buy petrol over the weekends, yet on page 7 of the Estimates we are surprised to find that the hon. the Minister of Finance has set aside huge sums of money. Last year the amount was R15 000 and this year it has been increased to R49 000. These big cars which are used by the Government should now be done away with.

CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in moving this amendment for the reduction of the hon. the Chief Minister's salary by R6 400 I have the following points to canvass. Referring to chiefs and headmen, on page 13 of the policy speech the hon. Minister says that from 1st April 1974 the salaries of the 91 chiefs ...-

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are behind the times. They are small cars now.

CHIEF MAJEKE : Turn now to page 47.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : I made a mistake. It should have been 1973.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And what about the new department?

CHIEF MAJEKE: I am talking about this figure of 91. On page 9 of the Estimates to me it seems that this increment will only be given to 91 chiefs and the other chiefs ... I don't know whether this is an error.

CHIEF MAJEKE : We should not use this money carelessly. MINISTER OF FINANCE: We are dealing only with Vote 1 at the present moment.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: How many chiefs? CHIEF MAJEKE : On page 9 of the Estimates you will find you have more than 91 chiefs.

CHIEF MAJEKE: All right, but we are complaining about the misuse of these moneys. Another point which I desire to canvass is that the people whom we respect and who are in the offices should have their salaries increased . Why I say these people should get more money is because they should command respect from the public. Sometimes one hears these young clerks in the offices replying in such an unmannerly way to the public. (Interjections) The reason I say these young clerks should receive better pay is because they lose the respect of older people when they are paid so little and then they ask people for bribes. We want those young clerks to be well trained so that they can demand some respect.

MINISTER OF FINANCE : There are only 91 chiefs in all, including paramount chiefs. CHIEF MAJEKE : Thank you. If there are more than 91 it means they will also get an increment. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : So what you were going to say falls away now. CHIEF MAJEKE : It does not fall away. The hon. the Chief Minister has told me there are 91 chiefs. Now, I am going to talk about the Coloureds as he made mention of them. In Qumbu we have a great number of Coloured people and they occupy a number of administrative areas. I want the hon. the Chief 128

Mr GUZANA: I have.

Mr Chairman, I am now going to talk about the present abundance of rain and the way in which this rain is interfering as far as we are concerned, because it affects the amount allocated to road maintenance. We already know that certain chiefs and other members of this House were marooned so that they could not attend some of the sessions. I am pleased that Mr de la Harpe has entered the House because he is responsible for the moneys allotted to tribal authorities and we would be pleased if the hon. the Minister of Finance would instruct these officers in his department to see to it that we are given these moneys when we request it. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member. The hon. member may be referred to regulation 43 (2) of the rules of procedure, where you have directed your remarks to the seconded officials. In terms of this rule you are precluded from referring to members of the public or people who are not members of this House.

MINISTER OF FINANCE: If they did have anything to criticize they should have done so during the whole debate on this motion. I am sure that the House is aware of the fact that there are seven votes to be dealt with and the debate on the Appropriation Bill has got to be concluded within a reasonable time in order to allow my department to forward the Estimates to the State President for his assent. What happened is that there has been too much repetition on the policies of this Government, on the policy of multiracialism , the attitude of the Government on the Whites of the Transkei and the Coloureds, let alone questions of land which are going to be discussed in a motion at a later stage. Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have listened to the discussions contributed by the hon. members on both sides of this House on my policy speech. I am happy to notice that there is nothing to criticize whatsoever in so far · as my financial bill is concerned, which I have dealt with at length, and that makes me conclude that the House accepts the manner in which my department is controlling the funds of the Transkei. It could not be otherwise, Mr Chairman, because these Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure have gone through the hands of the Controller and Auditor-General and, as I said in my policy speech, he has never at any time raised a query in that regard. Reverting to the remarks of the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Mr Ramsay Madikizela , I regret to notice that he has not understood the context of my argument in so far as this question of communism and terrorism is concerned . Naturally, as a student of politics and as a graduate , I could not mix his words up. In politics when we talk of communism we talk of a philosophy, of a political thought of a certain group of people who believe that they have got to put across their policies by violent means. When we talk of terrorists we are talking of the people who have been released from Central Africa to invade Southern Africa by way of arms. I hope the hon. members now understand the two words. I was happy, however, to notice that the hon. member appreciated the rest of the policy speech. Now, as regards the policy of the Transkeian Government towards the White and Coloureds, I want to state categorically that we are still working under the policy of the Republican Government. Now, the Republican Government says that the homelands are for the citizens of those particular homelands and the white people belong to the Republic of South Africa and the Coloured people belong to the Western Province . I do that is not not know whether they have a homeland my "indaba". Now, if you are bent on my announcement of the future policy of an independent Transkei I am not prepared to do that. There has been a recess committee appointed to deal with these matters. Do you want me to tell you what I will say before the recess committee? I am not going to do that. I have got my reservations about all this and I will put them before the recess committee . So the question of the Coloureds, their security in the Transkei , is a matter for the Republican Government. It is not true that I have made a statement that the Coloureds are not required in the Transkei . You will not find a single statement that has come from me. I would like any member of the Opposition to quote any statement which I ever made during the last ten years.

CHIEF MAJEKE : I thank you for the correction, Mr Chairman. I was saying that the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance should see to it that these moneys are sent to the tribal authorities when requests are made. These moneys are allocated for the repair and maintenance of minor roads which have been handed over to tribal authorities but these roads are not being attended to efficiently by the people concerned. We ask that the hon. the Chief Minister should give us some sort of relief by allowing the use of graders and trucks to assist the tribal authorities in maintaining those roads. It should be remembered that the chiefs' places of residence are of great importance, and the roads thereto should be kept in good repair. Cinics and schools are also of great importance and when the roads are in good condition then progress can be realised for the advancement of the people. The hon. paramount chief mentioned that the people are so keen that at times they levy rates on themselves in order to achieve something, despite the fact that they pay taxes to the Government. If such people who are so willing make a request we wish the Government would meet such requests. Mention was made also of labourers who number about 20 000. That is a large number but it is painful to consider the small amount paid to those people. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I believe much has now been said by the members on the hon. Minister's speech and I will now call upon the hon. Minister to reply.

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I think there are quite a number of matters to be raised under the vote of the hon. the Chief Minister • MINISTER OF FINANCE : They have been raised. Mr GUZANA : .. especially under the amendment which gives us an opportunity to deal with the various items. We originally used to put in an amendment to each item of expenditure relating to a vote, but I think the procedure was accepted that if there is an amendment to the main item, namely the Minister's salary, then other items could be canvassed under that head. I think we should be given that opportunity. MINISTER OF FINANCE : At what stage? Mr GUZANA : Now. MINISTER OF FINANCE: We have been discussing the thing the whole day.

Reference has been made to the question of the jurisdiction which has been granted to the urban representatives to try civil cases arising between Transkeian citizens based on Native law and custom, and one of

Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am sure the hon. members have nothing to criticise in so far as Vote 1 is concerned.

129

be made for Xhosa and Sotho-speaking Transkeians, so you should alter that in the written text. Now, with regard to the Zulus in the Transkei, they are just like Pondos and Tembus and Hlubis and Beles, who are not Xhosas. It should be understood that the Xhosas are Gcalekas, Ngqikas and Ndlambe people. Tembus are not Xhosas, but we all speak the Xhosa language, so that Zulus in Umzimkulu and Mount Fletcher can read Xhosa very well. In fact, Xhosa is the medium of instruction in their schools, so I think I have disposed of the observations of the hon. member in that regard. He wanted to find out from me as to how these allowances to Ministers are utilized or spent by the various Ministers . All I can do is to inform the hon. member what I do with the allowance which is given me for entertaining important visitors from outside the Republic or for entertaining members of this House for a braaivleis at the Chief Minister's residence. (Laughter) My private secretary usually submits to the Treasury the amount which is to be spent on this. I never see the money. Even if there is a balance I

the speakers said that the functions of these officers are not known. I have a four-page document here which lays out the functions of the urban representatives. The urban representatives know their functions and their duties, they are not in any difficulty and they are carrying out their duties very well. (Interjections) People may be complaining to you but they do not complain to the urban representatives. The urban representatives are the actual people who are on the spot to deal with the difficulties concerning Transkeian citizens. With regard to the qualifications to try civil and criminal cases, I wonder how many of the chiefs are qualified legally to try these cases? Yet they have no difficulties because they know their laws and customs very well - better than even the learned attorneys and advocates. If the magistrates, the Presidents of the Bantu Appeal Court, the judges and attorneys were so very conversant with Native law and custom they would not call assessors to come and give their opinion in these cases. In any event these gentlemen who have been appointed by the Government are highly qualified educationally and they are capable of going through Whitfield, which is an authority on Native law and custom, and even through the decisions of the Appeal Court. One point was raised by the hon. member for Ngqeleni, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase, that these representatives should have been appointed on a regional basis. You know, the Government has gone beyond tribal affiliations. When we appoint people to positions of this kind we do not think of Tembus, Bacas, Ntlangwinis, Tswanas, Sothos, Fingoes in the Transkei, otherwise we could never appoint the best men we can get for the post. The fact that two of these representatives come from one district, one constituency, which is Willowvale, shows that the Government is above tribalism. (Laughter)

never see it. It is usually paid out by the private secretary of my office. I am sure that is the procedure which is followed by the other Ministers. A question was put to me as to why the Ciskeian members of the Legislative Assembly are paid more than the Transkeian members of the Assembly. I do not know how they do it. All I can tell you is that in their Estimates they had to spend an amount of about R20 million in all. I do not know how they are able to use that money for their personal needs. I am concerned with the Transkeian people more than anything else. I am worried about the taxpayers. He must get the services for the money he pays towards taxation . If in Great Britain they pay their members of parliament luxurious amounts, South Africa need not necessarily do that. I have got to provide for the services of the Transkeian people, otherwise I will be a very unpopular Minister. When this House was established in 1964 the members' allowance was R800 per annum. I think about two years after that the amount was raised to R1 000, and then after that I increased the amount to about R1 200. (Interjections) I do it according to the Estimates before me. I am not going to collect stones and pay that to the members of this House. You are so carzy about getting your salary.

Now, coming to the remarks made by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher, with regard to the low standards that you find in the tribal and regional authorities, I find it difficult to give him an appropriate reply because these authorities are left to the local people to elect members to them. It is for the people to try to get intellectuals to those authorities. On the regional authority the Government appoints three members — one for his experience in agriculture, another appointed by the Department of the Interior to represent the interests of the traders and another to represent the interests of education. Naturally, the Minister tries by all means to get the best man in the area. It would be a great pity if the members on those authorities , particularly the regional authority, do not perform their duties seriously, as alleged by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher. It would be a great pity if the members of the regional authorities do not grant scholarships on merit. My experience in the regional authority of Emigrant Tembuland is that all the applications are put before the authority and the best child in so far as the report of the prinicpal teacher of his/her school is concerned is usually granted the scholarship, irrespective of whether he or she is known to the members of the regional authority. I hope, however, that the heads of regional authorities and the councillors who are present here have taken note of this criticism because to me it is very, very important. We cannot allow favouritism in our administration.

Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : Because you said I asked for it when I did not. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes, and so I had to tell the people that you want all the money. Now, during those years I was increasing these allowances by about R200 per annum. I think it was from the 1st October (I am not sure of the date) when the amounts were increased by another R400. I cannot increase the allowance by 100 %. It would be ridiculous. As funds permit I promise I will increase the members' allowances again, but I will not be dictated to by another Legislative Assembly. I know the hon. member for Willowvale will never be satisfied even if I gave him R7 000. (Laughter) Now, Mr Chairman, I think I will have to adjourn in order to continue with my reply tomorrow. I move that you report progress to the Chairman of the House. House Resumed

With regard to the point which probably must have confused the listeners to my delivery on this policy that advertisements statement - that is, on page 20 should be made for Xhosa-speaking people, I made that clear in my speech that these advertisements will

The Deputy Chairman reported progress. Mr K. M. GUZANA : Mr Chairman, may I crave your indulgence before we close? CHAIRMAN : With pleasure.

130

ANNOUNCEMENTS

Mr GUZANA: Thank you. Mr Chairman and hon. members, certain members of the Opposition have become so concerned about agricultural development that they would like tomorrow to have an opportunity to see how this is done elsewhere. Travelling arrangements have been made to take us to a place where intensive agriculture is being practised and we wonder whether or not we will not benefit as a whole by seeing the thing being done practically. We will not come back to make odious comparisons, we will just come back to make information available when we come to discuss the vote of the Department of Agriculture. May I ask, with the leave of this House and the approval of the hon. the Chief Minister, that our absence, which will involve six of us, be condoned, as we shall be dealing with matters directly related to business which might come before this House. I may say to the hon. the Chief Minister that I did mention it to the hon. the Minister of Justice in your absence, and I thought he would have advised you of this. We shall submit the names of the members tomorrow and we would ask that this indulgence be extended to us. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I think members are allowed to be absent two days during the session.

CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have to move that certain hon. members be excused for their absence because they were marooned by rain. I think it was the two elected members for Willowvale and also the hon. Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara who is in hospital. Further, Mr Chairman, the Chairman of the House is not present this morning. He has had to go home because of the death of his sister's child. We sympathize with him in this loss . The hon. the Paramount Chief of the Tembus, Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo, consulted a doctor, I think on Monday afternoon, and he was advised to remain in bed. I move that these hon. members should be excused for their absence and be paid their sessional allowances. Mr Chairman, on the 10th of this month all the regional authority members from Qaukeni will have to go home to attend a regional authority meeting on the 11th, but not all the Qaukeni members are members of regional authority so we will watch those who are not members of the regional authority so that they do not absent themselves, including the hon. the Minister of the Interior. (Laughter) Also , the members of the Dalindyebo region will be absent on the 5th to attend a regional authority meeting. I hope in future, Mr Chairman, the heads of regions will arrange their meetings to be before the session of the Legislative Assembly and after the session. It is disturbing for members of regional authorities to be absent from the sessions of this Assembly, but I think in terms of the regulations these meetings are held every two months. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, on Monday I sent a message to inform the House that I was marooned on account of the rain. Now on reading the minutes I am surprised to find that nothing was said to that effect. I do not know whether there is favouritism as far as these requests are concerned. My circumstances were similar to those of members who have had their absence condoned, but it is not my fault that the hon. the Chief Minister would appear to be choosing ... CHIEF MINISTER: I don't like your allegation.

Mr GUZANA: That is for private business . CHIEF MINISTER : They say this is for private business. If it had been official business I should have known about it. I do not know what it is all about so it is a private arrangement. I wonder if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture knows about it? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No. CHIEF MINISTER : Well, if they are so friendly to the hon. the Minister of Justice as to inform him about it, that is not official. Mr GUZANA : It was in your absence. He is usually your deputy, isn't he? So we went to him in your absence.

CHIEF MINISTER: In any event, Mr Chairman, I think the house should grant this indulgence because we have nothing to hide in so far as these matters are concerned. I hope those hon. members will go to my own plots so that they see how much farming I am doing when I get home, and compare that with the other paramount chiefs who also have farms. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 3rd April 1974.

CHIEF MABANDLA: I telephoned to the office so that my absence should be conveyed to the hon. the Chief Minister as well as to the Leader of the Opposition.

CHIEF MINISTER: I don't like your allegations . WEDNESDAY, 3rd APRIL 1974

CHIEF MABANDLA: That is my request, Mr Chairman.

Prayers were read. ADOPTION OF MINUTES

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I think the hon. member for Tsolo is somewhat mystified. His open remedy should have been to find out from his emissary as to whether the message intended to be delivered to the hon. the Chief Minister was in fact delivered , and I think his imputation that there has been some favouritism on the part of the hon. the Chief Minister should be vehemently treated with the contempt it deserves. You know, there are things we can joke about and there are things which we should take seriously. As far as this House is concerned there has never been any discrimination on the basis of party affiliations in regard to any leniency which could be meted out to members of this House and I think the hon. member ought to tender an apology to the hon. the Chief Minister for the imputations he tried to make.

CHIEF W. G. NKENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, in regard to Question No. 1 in the minutes, the chief stock inspector and stock inspectors Grade I are not reflected. Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman, the minutes have not been moved. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, when I asked anyone to move the adoption of the minutes the hon. member for Tsomo stood up and instead of moving the adoption of the minutes he came up with a correction. Apparently the minutes are not in order in so far as the hon. chief from Tsomo is concerned . Hon. members of the House, according to the information before me the departmental reply is reflected on the order paper and if the hon. chief from Tsomo had any query he should have raised his query at the time of the reply. This reply before us is the departmental reply. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. chief from Tsolo telephoned to the library and the hon. the Chief Minister does not live in the library. The hon. the

131

under the same misapprehension as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I was dealing yesterday with remarks made by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher and I think I will finish with him this morning. He asked what was the prerequisite for scholarships for students who study at Fort Hare. Now, in reply I wish to advise him and the House that my department, through the Public Service Commission, merely deals with the scholarships of applicants who are actually on service and who wish to continue their legal studies at the University of Fort Hare. All the other scholarships fall under the Department of Education. Reverting now to the remarks made by the hon. member for Umtata, Mr M. T. Makaula, in his short address he made a request to my department to increase the stipends of chiefs so that they do not go to look for work in the labour centres. My reply to this will also deal with the remarks made by the hon. member for Ngqeleni, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase. The minimum salary of a chief (I refer to the 91 chiefs of the Transkei) is R176 per annum. Now, the increase of 171% is about R30, bringing the total of the minimum salary to R206 . Now, about 65 of these 91 chiefs are members of this House, so that they are getting R206 per annum plus the allowance for being members of this House. However, not all chiefs are getting R206. Some of them are getting far more than that, according to the population under their jurisdiction . The remainder of the chiefs who are not members of this Assembly are paid R600 more than their normal stipends, bringing the total to R806 - that is, R67 per month. You can therefore see the improvement that has been made by the Transkeian Government since 1963 when some of the chiefs were only getting about R12 per quarter. I do not think you realised what the position is when you made these remarks. I do not think I will reply to the allegation about salaries not being paid and sometimes the figures being incorrect. That is a matter for the Department of Education in so far as the teachers are concerned, but if I have to reply to defend the computer system I think that any machine is regarded as not being a person and cannot answer for its mistakes. If the computer makes a mistake nobody is to blame. (Interjections) I am now replying to the remarks of the hon. Mr Jafta of Qumbu. Coming to other remarks which called for my comment, I think this came from the hon. member for Qumbu, Chief S. S. Majeke in connection with increases in salaries. I may say that I made a mistake in my policy statement when I said the increments were made from 1st April 1974. They were made from 1st April 1973, and I think the increments in the members' allowances came into operation on 1st October 1973. He pleaded for an increase in the salaries of the civil servants. This was done last year as from 1st April 1973 and I do not know where the hon. members think I get the money from to meet all these fantastic demands from them. I cannot pay out money unless I have money coming in. I plead with the hon. members to try to get the taxpayers to pay their taxes. Now, with regard to the grants which are made to meet the demands of the tribal authorities on minor

Chief Minister has a private secretary and if he had telephoned straight to the Chief Minister's office, naturally the message should have been received and I rule that business out of order and not acceptable. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I think the point at issue is that the hon. member of Tsolo should withdraw this and apologise for his remarks. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member for

Tsolo please withdraw. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I did not take this question as being serious to that extent. I will then .. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member please withdraw. CHIEF MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, I withdraw. APPOINTMENT OF MEMBER TO RECESS COMMITTEE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the hon. member for Mount Ayliff, Chief Churchill Senyukele Jojo, be appointed to the recess committee on the Transkeian Constitution to fill the vacancy caused by the death of the late Mr C. M. C. Ndamse, and I move that the rules be so waived that we dispose of this matter straight away. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move accordingly that the hon. member be appointed. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman and hon members, I move that the House should now sit in committee of supply. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded. Agreed to. House in Committee

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : When we adjourned yesterday, hon members of the House, the hon. the Chief Minister was still busy with his reply in connexion with Vote 1. I have the respect now to call upon him to continue. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, the House will notice that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is not in his chair this morning, and I have been informed that he was involved in an accident, but it would appear that it is not serious except that his car may have been damaged. However, we hope he is not injured. Mr Chairman, yesterday when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, in the late stages of the debate on this policy statement, raised the question of terrorism and made the allegation that some of the hon. members might be labouring under a misapprehension and regard terrorism as only physical terrorism. He averred that there was also terrorism of the mind and that those in authority - in fact, that the members of the governing party accused certain hon. members of the Opposition as being involved with communistic tendencies. I regret, Mr Chairman, that the hon. member misdirected his mind. At no time in my speech did I have to refer to people being terrorised by anybody in South Africa. I specifically referred to the aggressive actions of certain people who are marauding Southern Africa from the north and actually committing acts of violence. I hope that the hon. members will not be

roads, I wish to point out that these amounts are given to the tribal authorities in accordance with their estimates. Every tribal authority is expected at the beginning of its financial year to submit estimates of expenditure on minor roads and they should motivate when they do this . A plea was made for the employ-

132

ment of Transkeian citizens within the homelands. You know, this is a curious situation today when everybody thinks that the Transkeian Government should find jobs within the Transkei within a period of ten years from 1963. The employment of people within the territory depends on the establishment of factories, the establishment of industries within the Transkei. My Government is doing everything to attract industrial entrepreneurs to come and open up industries in the Transkei. Countries which became independent in the early 1960s have not been able to employ all their manpower within their own territories. The Republic of South Africa is still the main employing country for those under-developed states. Mr Chairman and hon. members, the policy speech of my department was enthusiastically accepted by members of this House. I do not remember a single hon. member standing up to criticize any point which was raised therein. (Laughter) Now, with regard to the reduction of the Chief Minister's salary, I think the hon. member of Qumbu şimply put the amendment as a mere formality. I move that Vote 1 should now be accepted. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr Chairman. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, before you put this I just want to ask the hon. the Chief Minister if he is not in a position to indulge us perhaps by supplying us with the duties of the representatives of this Government in the urban areas so that when we get back to the urban areas on our report-back campaigns they will perhaps be able to help us. MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I am sure the Secretary of my Department will be able to roneo about 110 copies to supply to the members of the duties of these urban representatives. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the question before the House is a motion by the hon. the Chief Minister that Vote 1 should stand part of the schedule, and to this motion an amendment has been moved by the hon. member for Qumbu, Chief S. S. Majeke. I now put the question with regard to the amendment. Amendment negatived . The sum of R1 327 000 in respect of Vote 1 , Department of Chief Minister and Finance, was passed to stand part of the schedule.

POLICY SPEECH

:

African tradition, an efficient and impartial judicial service to the community. To ensure our part in adhering to this tradition officers of the Department are encouraged, through generous bursary loans, to achieve the necessary legal qualifications and, in the case of those showing special aptitude, they are sent to Fort Hare University as full-time students for this purpose. To indicate the success which this policy is achieving I make mention of the fact that where as there were only two legally-qualified Transkeian officials in my Department in 1963 there are now twenty-four such officers, while five more have written supplementary examinations and, if they are successful, will boost the total number to twenty-nine. It has also been very encouraging to note the marked improvement in the results obtained by officers who have completed their first year of studies as well as the steadily increasing number of applications from officers for assistance to enable them to qualify themselves for legal duties. I must mention that this assisted training is not limited to the magisterial side of the department only, but that members of both the Police and Prisons services are also encouraged to and, in fact, are making use of the Government scheme to enable them to improve their academic qualifications to fit them to play a more responsible role in performing their duties. In keeping with the policy of progressively handing over more and more senior positions to Transkeian officials as they show ability to handle the high responsibility required, it gives me pleasure to report that three magistrates have recently been promoted to the rank of Senior Magistrate and in sole charge of districts of that grading. Their promotion has enabled the Department to promote a further three officers to the rank of Magistrate and, as a result of the creation of additional legal posts, the promotion to magisterial rank of further officers is envisaged in the not very distant future. At present six stations are manned solely by Transkeian officials while at twelve others only the magistrate is a seconded official.

At the end of 1973 381 posts on the Department's establishment were filled by Transkeian officials as compared with 347 at the end of 1972. While I have mentioned that a steadily increasing number of officers are becoming legally qualified, many of these are still young men. As I pointed out earlier, the more senior officers of my Department require experience of a very diversified nature to enable them to meet the requirements of their many duties. This experience is not gained overnight and one has, therefore, to guard against catapulting young officers into senior positions for which legal qualifications alone are insufficient. However, to ensure that these young men gain the necessary background for the senior positions as soon as possible, the Department, in consultation with the Public Service Commission, hopes to create a number of junior legal posts in which these officers can gain the required experience while, at the same time, putting their legal qualifications to full use.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE

Mr Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members : In rising to move the approval of Vote No. 2 it gives me pleasure to report that my Department continues to play an indispensable role in the service it renders to the general public. The importance of this service will be more fully appreciated when one realises that, apart from purely'legal matters , officers of my Department, through the agency services which they perform on behalf of both Republican and Transkeian Departments , cater, in at least some measure , for the needs of a human being virtually from the day he is born until even after his death. It will therefore be appreciated that the Department's officials are required to display a high degree of versatility in coping with the day to day problems with which they are confronted. The ability to cope with these problems cannot always be gained through academic training, and a system of "in-service" training coupled with internal controls remains basically the means through which officers are provided with the necessary "know-how" to carry out their daily tasks . Primarily, however, the functions of my Department are to provide, in keeping with long standing South

As regards Court Work, the following comparative statistics give a guide to the amount of work performed :1971 1972 1973 No of Criminal cases Heard No. of Review Sentences No. of Admissions of Guilt No. of Civil Cases ... ...

... ... ... ...

20 000 20 870 19 807 1 374 1 593 1 681 10 503 10 795 10 856 4 049 4 446 4 508

As envisaged in my policy speech during the 1973 session of this Assembly the Transkeian High Court came into being on the 1st August 1973 with the 133

it would not be amiss for me to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the Commissioner of our Transkeian Police, Brigadier Gerardy, who retires on pension at the end of May, for the sterling services he has performed in building up our force from scratch to the effective unit which it is today. On behalf of the Legislative Assembly I would like to express our appreciation for his services to our people and to wish him a well earned retirement with many years of good health ahead. The 16 Transkeian Prisons continue to be administered on a sound basis and there were no noteworthy incidents or changes in policy to report. The prison population remains constant. The daily average was 1133 compared with 1 101 for the previous year. A bill on Transkeian Prisons has been introduced. This bill will regulate all facets of the functions of prisons falling under the control of the Transkei Government. As it will be discussed in full, I do not intend giving more details at this stage. At this point it might be appropriate to draw attention to the increase of R25 000 to be voted under subhead E of my department's vote in regard to equipment for police. It has been decided that our Police and Prisons Service should have distinctive badges, buttons, etc. to distinguish them from other similar services, This amount is required for this purpose. In the field covered by the various Transkeian Liquor laws, two new licences for bottle stores were granted during 1973. There are now 13 bottle stores and three hotels licensed in terms of Transkei Liquor Act 7 of 1967. With the exception of one of the three hotels all these concerns are in the hands of Transkeian citizens. Eleven hotels are licensed in terms of Proclamation No. 177 of 1965 and cater for consumption by non-white persons both on and off licensed premises. The development which self-government has brought to the Transkei appears to have stimulated a marked interest by Transkeian entrepreneurs in the liquor trade and a gradual adoption by the population to western drinking habits. However, I feel I must reiterate what I have said on previous occasions in regard to liquor matters, viz. that in dealing with applications for Liquor licences the Liquor Board will continue to be guided by public demand coupled with the availability of existing facilities.

swearing in of the Honourable Mr Justice Munnik as the first Chief Justice of the Transkei by the Honourable the Chief Justice of the Republic of South Africa. On the same day the Attorney-General as well as the Master of the High Court also opened offices in Umtata. On the 1st November 1973 a Regional Court for the Transkei was instituted and commenced operating. With its higher jurisdiction it proves to be of great benefit as it provides the machinery for the convenient and speedy disposal of cases falling between the scope of the jurisdiction of the High Court on the one hand and the Magistrate's Court on the other. The establishment of these two Courts has been a great stride forward, constituting a further milestone in our development and, by being purely localised institutions, has contributed materially to the expeditious handling and disposal of many legal matters which had formerly to be sent outside the boundaries of the Transkei. Good work continues to be done by the Transkeian Police in the areas under its control and we have every reason to be proud of the manner in which our Police Force carries out all aspects of the duties entrusted to it. On the 1st April 1974 the following 6 additional police stations were taken over by the Transkeian Police: Cala, Insikeni, Cofimvaba, Nqamakwe, Flagstaff and Tsomo. This is surely a sign of confidence on the part of the Republican authorities that our people have the ability to assume responsibility for the proper performance of such an important task. There are indications that further stations will be handed over to our Government in the not too distant future. The establishment of the Transkeian Police rose from 154 units at the end of 1972 to 171 at the close of 1973. The taking over of the additional six police stations I have mentioned now raises the strength of the force to 250 units.

During the course of the past year two members of the force successfully completed a commissioned officers' course at the South African Police Training College at Hammanskraal and have been promoted to the rank of Lieutenant. A Lieutenant was included in the units transferred to the Transkeian Police on 1st April 1974. There are therefore now three commissioned officers who are Transkeian citizens on the establishment of our Police Force.

The National Road Safety Council, which is subsidised to the extent of R10 000 per year by the Transkeian Government, continues to play an active part in bringing home to our people the dangers which await the careless, the inconsiderate and the unwary users of our roads, be they motorists or pedestrians, in an endeavour to curb the annual grim death toll .

The first purely Transkeian Police promotion examinations were held during 1973 for promotion from the rank of constable to sergeant. Six candidates were successful and are being promoted to the higher rank.

Mr Chairman, it will be observed that our estimates for 1974/75 exceed those of the previous year by R517 000. The main increases are to be found under the following headings:-

Training of members for specialized duties is also receiving constant attention to steadily improve the efficiency of the force as a whole in all fields.

(a) Salaries and allowances ... ... ... ... R400 000 29 000 (b) Subsistence and Transport 10 500 (c) Printing and Stationery ... (d) Miscellaneous 50 500

During 1973 2 223 cases of alleged crime were reported and investigated at the five Transkeian Police stations. Prosecutions were instituted in 1488 of these, while a number are still under investigation. Stock theft continues to be the main cause for concern but special efforts are being made to ccmbat this menace.

...

(e) Witness allowances

30 000

This seemingly large increase is due mainly to the substantial increase in the Staff complement , especially that in the Police Force as a result of the take-over of the additional six police stations. I have already mentioned the amount that has been earmarked for distinctive badges and buttons. The extension of the activities of the police services also considerably af-

It is with deep regret that I report the death on duty of Detective Chief Sergeant G. S. J. Babu, one of the force's promising and most trustworthy members . He was killed in a motor accident on 27 June 1973. We mourn the untimely loss of so valuable a member. While on the subject of our Police Force I feel that 134

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where is that?

fects the department's vote in regard to transport expenses as well as printing and stationery. When one takes into account the escalating costs in all spheres as a result of world events beyond our control then the increased amounts we seek are not unreasonable. I must also mention that the replacement of Seconded officials at senior levels and the appointment of Transkeian officers to full these senior posts also results in a considerable increase in the salaries sub-head.

Mr DUMALISILE: There are places where a policeman has been transferred to a district and he finds no accommodation. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where has a magistrate been transferred and not found accommodation? Mr DUMALISILE : I took the trouble to find accommodation for an African magistrate. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where?

The activities of the Regional Court I have mentioned necessitates mainly the increase under the heading Witness Expenses" . '

Mr DUMALISILE : In Willowvale, and the hon. Minister in reply to my challenge said those places that were given to the European magistrates were not transferred to the Transkeian Government. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: When was that? Mr DUMALISILE: The hon. Minister asks when that was. It was when we first had an African magistrate in Willowvale. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And who was that?

It has been possible to effect a savings of R5 000 under the heading "Legal Expenses". Mr Chairman and honourable members, I now move the approval of Vote 2. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. The debate was adjourned.

Mr DUMALISILE : The magistrate has now been transferred to Nqamakwe and I have just mentioned that for future reference and consideration. The hon. the Minister of Justice has told us here that his department is responsible for other branches of the government of the Transkei. It reminds me of a reply he gave in this House when we queried the fact that old people who were said to be earning old-age pensions queued up at the places where they had to collect their pensions. His reply was that that should be referred to the Department of the Interior, but we all know that his clerks in his department are responsible for paying out these pensions. After all said and done, the policy speech in itself with all its promises, with all its aims, is, we know, merely the views of the hon. Minister expressed in this House, but the practice outside is not altogether being welcomed by the public. He has mentioned the progress made in adding police stations and prisons to his department. This deserves serious consideration in this department. The Department of Justice working hand in hand with the police and the citizens of the Transkei is something that should create a good relationship between the two groups. How many times, however, have we witnessed negligence on the part of the police when called to some place where there is friction or where something untoward is happening. How many times have the police been called when there was fighting and the only question asked by the police is : Is there anybody dead or have they stopped fighting? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. member to page 7 of my policy speech where I referred specifically to the Transkeian police who are under the Department of Justice in the Transkei and therefore I would like the hon. member when he has any comments to make to make comments on the Transkei police and not on the South African police. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, in order to avoid the disturbance on my lefthand side, will the hon. member for Engcobo please leave the House. Mr L. L. Mgudlwa left the Chamber.

AFTERNOON SESSION

The debate on Vote 2, Department of Justice, was resumed. Mr J. M. DUMALISLE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, before I come to the details of the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice I must in all earnest associate myself and this side of the House with the sentiments expressed in connexion with the death of Detective Chief Sergeant G. S. J. Babu. While we have a lot to complain about the police in the Transkei and South Africa we are not at all intending to complain about the cops. We are all aware and sure that this man, young as he was, would bring the Transkei to something better than it is. We on this side of the House are associating ourselves with the Government side in regretting his passing away. I must also mention Brigadier Gerady. While this man has reached the age of superannuation it is not right in anyone in this House to wish him to remain on in service instead of retiring to live with his family. We also appreciate his services and we take it that everybody under him has accepted his teaching and rulings. I must promise the hon. the Minister of Justice that I am not going to make him shrink in his chair as the froth from the cattles' mouth this time. (Laughter) I know it is his policy to give us a very defensive policy speech but in a very short style. His usual phrase is that he has closed all loopholes. However, the fact remains that he might be good, but what is happening under him? With all earnestness this policy is that one should have comments to make or one should have no comments, but that it is based on separate for one simple reason development ― this side of the House cannot allow it to go unchallenged . I do not mean to say it is through his influence that we find no Whites being charged in the Transkei, not that they are free from breaking the law. Coming to the administration in the magistrates' offices we welcome the idea that we have got young men being trained to take up responsible positions in the Transkei, but from his quoted numbers in the policy statement the process is very slow. It is not, at the same time, the intention of this side to make it known that Whites must be eliminated in the Transkei, but we would like to see that the Whites and the Blacks reach the same numbers and earn the same salary if they are magistrates and senior magistrates. There has been something very striking and something very hurtful when you see an African magistrate transferred to another district and he gets no accomodation provided for him at all.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The speaker has two minutes more. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, before his two minutes expire, in view of the fact that I am presuming he is deputizing for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the deputy Leader of the Opposition I would move that the rules be waived to give him a little more time in order to exhaust him135

self on this, if he is not already exhausted. (Laughter) MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Mr DUMALISILE : Thank you, Mr Chairman . In reply to the question by the hon. the Minister of Justice as to whether those police are Transkeians or otherwise, I have to say to begin with that he is referring me to page 7 when I am still dealing with pages 1 to 3. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Don't quibble, please. You are dealing with the police contained in page 7. Mr DUMALISILE : I want to make it clear that I still have plenty to say. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : All right, carry on. Mr DUMALISILE : When we talk of the police there is nothing to say this is Transkeian or South African. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are educated have badges, Transkei and SAP.

they

Mr DUMALISILE : They don't have them now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They have. Mr DUMALISILE : As I have said, the second reason they don't come is that they have no vehicles. Being Transkeian or Republic, if they have to come where there is fighting what is the purpose of their going there when there is already somebody dead ? To maintain law and justice they must go and prevent the death of anybody, especially when they have been called before an incident has taken place. These things we say in this House so that they may be taken cognizance of. We are aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister of Justice is staying in town here and does not know what is happening outside. (Laughter) MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where have you ever seen a Minister staying in the "bundu"? Mr DUMALISILE: But we ask him to accept that these things are happening because we stay in the "bundu" and he does not stay in the "bundu". Again, the hon. the Minister of Justice has quoted some statistics of cases on page 5. (As I said , I am still far from page 7.) One would be surprised to find that in 1971 the number of criminal cases was lower than that in 1972 and 1973. In fact, they are increasing in number. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, and the population is growing too.

Mr DUMALISILE : Now, he tells me there is a growth of population when they tell us there must be - I don't know whether to call it an "ungrowth" of population. (Laughter) My view on this increase is that the people in the Transkei are starving and they have to find means to get food to eat or they must commit crimes. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Unfortunately they cannot be fed by my department . Mr DUMALISILE : We really ask the hon. the Minister of Justice and his department and his staff to see that the people of the Transkei are not suffering through the negligence of the police not attending to calls. Coming to the liquor business or the liquor-drinking in the hotels, we would earnestly and cordially ask the hon. Minister to instruct, if not to request the hoteliers or those who have licences for hotels inside the Transkei to erect places where people can relax. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Especially at Willowvale! Mr DUMALISILE : I have every hope and belief that the hon. chiefs on that side will support this request. (Laughter) It is embarrassing to find a chief or anybody dignified having his seat under a bush or behind a toilet.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There are enough trees at Willowvale for that purpose. Mr DUMALISILE : I have witnessed MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And I have been a party to it. Mr DUMALISILE : It is not very fitting for a Minister of Justice to interrupt a shadow Minister of Justice. (Laughter) Everyone knows his habit in this House when he feels something pinching. The promotion of the police to any higher rank is something questionable as far as the Africans are concerned. We know there are policemen, especially Whites, who start and in no time they become high-ranking, but it is embarrassing for an African policeman who has been in the service for ten years to have a young white policeman who has just had two years ' service promoted over him. We would like to see a white sergeant saluting an African lieutenant. It must not be the colour that counts. it must be the position. We would not like a private white policeman instructing an African sergeant to go and buy him some sandwiches from a café. These are things which this side of the House wish to place before the hon the Minister of Justice to rectify them. Mr. Chairman, having been deputized, I have never been a criminal, I have never been a policeman, but I do not want to finish everything. The menu is not for me alone, but the hon. members on that side especially the hon. Minister, will understand that from today I am Minister without Portofolio. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ACTING CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice. I am happy to discover that in the short history of the Transkeian Government several police stations have been handed over to our Government. It has been embarrassing for the headmen and chiefs to work hand in hand with the police who were not controlled by our Government but by the Republican Government. It is for that reason that some of the districts in the Transkei handled criminal cases carelessly because there were two bulls in one kraal. According to Xhosa tradition we never keep two bulls in one kraal and now that there is only one authority I hope that things will improve. The second bull is the Republican Government and I do not want to mention anything about that Government. In the realm of my domain where I am chief I hope that we will control the people there peacefully because the government of the Transkei belongs to us and the police of the Transkei also belong to us. It has been difficult for us when we approach the police stations under the direct control of the Republican Government, because, although some of them were black, you were told sometimes that instructions came from Pretoria. I am certain now that since these police stations have been handed over to the Transkeian Government the policemen will know exactly the significance of a chief. Since we have been bundled together in the same kraal by the Republican Government even the dignity of a chief deteriorated . I have one request to direct to the hon. the Minister of Justice in connection with police stations which have been released to him. There has always been this problem that when stock-theft is reported to the police the reply is that they have no trasnport. Now that everything is under our control I suppose the complaint of the shortage of transport will be put right. I do not know whether it was because the police were not under the Transkeian Government. The 136 .

handing over of all the police stations in the Transkei is a significant step forward because it is necessary for any government in the world to control its own police force so that there will be tranquillity in the country. I think even the biggest fanatic now realises that it is necessary for us to obtain complete independence because we shall henceforth impose discipline in this country of ours. I want to express my gratitude and joy because one of the constables from the Republican police force has come over to join the Transkei Police force. I believe that all level-headed Africans will follow this example and come and serve their country. It has been mentioned by the hon. Minister that we now have a High Court in the Transkei. That is also a clear indication that we are now on the march forward to attaining complete independence. We no longer have to wait for our cases to be sent for review to Grahams-

because he could not be given the green light to occupy the official residence. On the contrary, however, when a white magistrate gets transferred his official residence is open even before he arrives at that particular town or village. Mr. Chairman, I do hope the hon. Minister is really aware of the low salaries paid to these black magistrates as against their white colleagues. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It looks like an identical twin of the speech from Willowvale. MR. SIPUNZI : Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. the Minister of Justice will endeavour gradually to close this wage gap. If not, we will have to implore the hon. Minister of Justice to try to construct a bridge between these two categories.

town. When our people were convicted and had to appeal to Grahamstown it gave the impression to the Transkeians that we were juniors and had no control over our own legal affairs. We are now going to sentence them here in the Transkei and if they want to appeal they can do so to our High Court here in the Transkei. The hon. Minister has also mentioned the incidence of theft in the Transkei. I wish to draw the attention of the Department of Justice to the seriousness of stock theft. Stock is a very valuable asset to the black man because it is our mode of banking. It is gratifying to find that the Department of Justice and the Transkei Government have realised that it is unbecoming for Transkeians to embark on stock theft. It was evident in Cofimvaba that the thieves were people who had the most stock and yet when they were taken before a court of law they always came out scot-free. I would like the Department of Justice to realise that I am not blaming anybody, but the spoor of our stock from Cofimvaba always ends in the Engcobo area. (Laughter). MR. G. N. SIPUNZI Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think this House will agree with me when I say that this Minister of Justice is one of the men I admire most in the whole of South Africa, more particularly as he is the very man who teaches us to swear to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. (Laughter) It then behoves everybody in this House to believe that the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice reflects nothing else but the truth. I will start first, Mr. Chairman, with the detailed assistance given to the officials of his department. Coming to this government assistance to these officials I must, in the name of everything honest, welcome this undertaking on the part of the Government. It is my sincere hope that the hon. the Minister of Justice, through you, Mr. Chairman, will try to augment the number of these black officials who are said to be taking advantage of this government assistance. The hon. Minister speaks of promotions and says that the promotion of further officers is envisaged in the very near future. This "very near future" business could mean ten, twenty or even thirty years and it is one we would describe as vague.

MR. SIPUNZI : If this gap is not closed we will need a bridge for these magistrates to reach their colleagues . Mr Chairman, if this salary gap is not closed then I am afraid the hon. the Minister of Justice will enjoy only one status, namely, the Minister of Injustice. (Laughter) May I, Mr. Chairman, draw the attention of the hon. the Minister of Justice to delays which usually occur between the urgent telephone calls for the police van and its arrival. For these delays the public will get only one excuse, namely, there are not enough vans to go out, but once you telephone the police telling them that someone is in possession of dagga they are there within three minutes. (Laughter)

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If you will undertake to supply the cement for that bridge.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is there dagga in Willowvale?

MR. SIPUNZI : In the case of an injured person when the van arrives this injured person is usually taken by the police van. When reaching the police station the injured person is bundled into a taxi to be taken to the nearest hospital or clinic and, mind you, these injured persons have to pay for this transport. As you will recall, Mr. Minister, we do not have enough ambulances to serve the Transkei. In fact, it has been my intention to ask the hon. the Minister of Justice to lend us the XG car he is using as an ambulance. (Laughter) MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And what will you say to the hon. the Minister of Health? I have nothing to do with ambulances. MR. SIPUNZI : Now that you have started heckling me, I thank you, Sir. CHIEF F. GWADISO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice. As it is clear that on principle we are in agreement, all that remains for us to do is to make recommendations and requests in order to meet the desires of the people who have sent us into this House. We thank the hon. Minister for having demonstrated in his policy speech that he has the interests of the people in his department at heart, in the sense that their salaries have been raised. Mr. Chairman, I am not a lengthy debater and I am unable to repeat what has been told me, but here is my request which is directed to the hon. Minister. This is in regard to the degree of stock theft. The people have this complaint: It often happens that a man has his stock stolen. He then reports the matter to the charge office and an investigator is sent out. The investigator first meets the suspected thieves and the man whose stock has been stolen is left behind. Then the investigator turns round and tells the complainant they will meet at the charge office. This is a painful matter because when the man whose stock has been stolen went to report, in most cases that person had already seen where the stock was.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Then it ceases to be "very near future". That is the distant future. MR. SIPUNZI : The hon. the Minister of Justice boasts of quite a reasonable number of black magistrates. I wonder if the hon. Minister is aware of some injustices which befell these unfortunate black magistrates? I have personally witnessed what I can describe as a grave injustice when a black magistrate in Willowvale had to spend some weeks staying with friends 137

A situation like that is most embarrassing to us who are administrators of locations. The people relate this sort of thing to the Government which is in power. Another aspect of the matter is in the form of a request that has been mentioned by one of the speakers in regard to the inadequacy of police transport. The people are really complaining and this causes com-

the family they should at lease be provided with tworoomed buildings so that the children can occupy one room and the parents another room. The reason is to accommodate the children in school . Some of the police approached me with this request and I am now placing it before the Government. The old procedure should be followed even with the Transkei police. They should not be allowed to remain too long in one station until they are deeply rooted. What you find with a policeman who has remained in one station for a long time is a tendency to neglect his duty because he now becomes used to the people with whom he stays. He is also a person and he stays with people and then he has a sympathetic outlook towards the people. The policeman should not be allowed to remain for long in one place so that they cannot be influenced by the people in the prosecution of his duty. I wish the Government would take cognizance of these matters. At least the policeman must not be allowed to remain in one station for a period in excess of two years. At one station (I will not mention the name of the station) a policeman was transferred and those people who were so used to him did not know how to behave. Another observation is that when there is an uprising the policeman should not, right from the word Go, fire at people. He should just fire in the air.

plaints because we are often told that at a particular police station there is only one van available. We can see quite a number of vans in Umtata and we who are in the outside stations are in an unenviable position. I request you, Mr Minister of Justice, to see to this. I have not many words to say, Mr Chairman, and I have Isaid all I wanted to say.

Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman and hon. members, before I enter deeply into this matter I shall ask to say a few words. This is the 3rd April and at 3.20 p.m. I am starting to speak. I want this House and the whole of the Transkei to know that Kutu is crossing the floor. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hurray! Mr KUTU: I do not want anyone to ask me my reasons for doing so. I will give my reasons to the people of Engcobo. I will ask them to give me a seat over there at this very moment. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will.ask the hon. members not to allow excitement to gain the upper hand on their imaginations. Order please.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where did this happen? Mr Nkosiyane: You know what usually happens with these people who fear the police. Should the police come at night the people start running away. The policeman fires a shot at them and most of them run away through ignorance. To give a warning the police should shoot up in the air or into the ground so that the man who runs away should not run away. At

Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak on this policy statement by the hon. the Minister of Justice and I will make certain remarks in connection with those points which should be considered . I am not going to repeat what has been said by the speaker who has just now taken his seat, but I will talk about what I have seen in Mqanduli when there is no van and people have lost their property.

Mqanduli we heard of one man who was shot in a certain incident. There was a disturbance in Johannesburg and this man was from Cezu administrative area and he was shot in Johannesburg and was buried here at home.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : May I draw the hon. member's attention to please avoid repetition. This question of the vans has been hammered over and over again.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, a policy speech has been read by the hon. the Minister of Justice to the members of this House and nowhere in this document has he touched on what happened beyond the borders of the Transkei. This is irrelevant. Just confine yourself to what is before you.

Mr NKOSIYANE : Thank you, Mr Chairman. There is this other point which affects people who consume liquor in the towns. It is their request that they should be allowed to be served with liquor up till 8 o'clock in the evening, because when the closing time is 6 o'clock people are unable to obtain liquor. Another matter is that when people are enjoying themselves and sitting under some bushes the police come to find out what those people are doing. Even when those people sit together with their chiefs the police will intrude and try to find out what they are doing. They have no other place where they can rest at leisure and the only place they can find is under the trees . Some of the people are arrested and told they have been drinking just because an empty bottle has been seen, although the man has not been seen drinking. This is most disgraceful because even the chiefs are present. This is the request we make - that the Government should see to it that those people are not interefered with when they are enjoying themselves with their cool drinks. (Laughter) Remember, if you consume any strong liquor you also carry soft drinks so that the liquor will not be harmful to you. There is another request from the police. They have no decent accommodation and we have forwarded requests that suitable buildings should be put up to accommodate the police. The police now live with their wives in town because they have children who have to attend school. Formerly these police used one-room buildings, but to consider

Mr NKOSIYANE: about the police.

Mr Chairman, I am talking

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In Carletonville. must talk about the Transkei.

You

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I shall plead with the hon. member to please come back to a bit of sanity. Here we are talking about the Transkei . This matter first deteriorated into the South African police in the Transkei,, now it is going further right to Carletonville in the Transvaal. In any event, Mr Chairman the hon. member has been called to order by the Chairman and he has no right to say he is not out of order when the Chairman is telling him that he is out of order, therefore, let us get to the matters at issue. Mr NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Your time has expired. Before we adjourn for tea the hon. the Minister of the Interior wishes to make an announcement. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I think, Mr Chairman, we shall have to wait until the House is in session. It is in committee now and we cannot make announcements now.

138

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Thank you, Mr Minister of Justice.

point. We have seen this aspect of the matter, that when some of the police officers remain for too long in a particular district they become too accustomed to the people so that they do not perform their duties as efficiently as they should. We find a situation where you sometimes find a police van parked outside the residence of a private citizen of the Transkei for the night and you don't know for what purpose it is there. We commend this aspect of the matter to the hon. Minister. Mention has been made of police stations which are entirely under the control of this Government. While I was occupying the Opposition benches I was very much against the police department (Laughter) but even if I were still on that side I would concede the fact that there is some modicum of respect towards this police section. I have already mentioned that a number of aspects have been well canvassed in the policy speech. We are pleased to know that there are African magistrates who discharge the duties of the judiciary in the Transkei . I am not so very pleased in fact, I am grieved that I have not witnessed a black magistrate adjudicating in a case involving a white person. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I hope that what I am going to say now will be well considered. Some time ago it was agreed upon that people should be provided with firearms . People submit applications for firearms but these are not granted. These people are being harassed by jackals and other vermin but they are not supplied with firearms. We would like to see those people who own trading stores supplied with firearms in order to protect their properties. This House agreed to that but it has never been carried out. I am reminding the hon. the Minister of Justice to tell those people who sell firearms and those who are responsible for the issue of licences to rectify this matter. This is another request: In our district of Mqanduli the people are attacked by boys. My request is that when these boys attain the age of 20 years they should be circumcised and that should be legally enforced. (Interjections) These people who do not enforce the custom so that the boys are circumcised when they leave school are the chiefs. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please,

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Before we adjourn, Mr Chairman, may I crave your indulgence. The hon. the Minister of the Interior tells me that she has an engagement elsewhere, so I will ask the Chairman, in order that we should be in order, to report progress and then the hon. the Minister of the Interior can make her announcement while the House is in session, not in committee. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned .

House Resumed. The Deputy Chairman reported progress. ANNOUNCEMENT MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am sure the members have long been waiting for the results of the Umzimkulu election. These are the results:(1) Siphiwo Lenford Baleni, 5 878 votes. (2) Zebulon Chemane, 2 551 votes (3) Kangela Joe Mnguni, 1093 votes (4) Hamilton Pamla, 6 622 votes Messrs S. L. Baleni and H. Pamla have, therefore, been duly elected this day to represent the Umzimkulu constituency in this Legislative Assembly. Thank you, Mr Chairman, for your indulgence. APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House converts itself into committee of supply. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee

The debate on Vote 2, Department of Justice, was resumed. CHIEF H. S. ZULU: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech as delivered by the hon, the Minister of Justice. As it is quite apparent that there are no new facts coming from members, I think it is time we wound up this debate. (Laughter) The different facets in the policy speech have been mentioned and appreciation has been expressed. In support of what is contained in the policy speech I will point out the different developments which have been achieved by the Department of Justice. I think we must support the hon. Minister entirely. We have been given examples of magisterial districts which are under black magistrates, and also police stations which are manned entirely by black police. There is a complaint or an accusation with which I do not agree in view of the explanation given in the policy speech. There has been some hesitation on the part of members of the police force to accept transfers into the Transkei, but since there has been an impetus by way of increased salaries that difficulty will be overcome. All in all, we must expect these complaints but there is the old adage that half a loaf is better than no bread because you can slice your half loaf until you get your full loaf. A remark was made by the hon, member for Mqanduli that when some of the units from the police force remain too long at a particular police station they become entrenched there and acquire vested interests. That is a very important

Mr NKOSIYANE: The Government should introduce a law which will compel boys to be circumcised in order to do away with battle-axes. As soon as they are circumcised there can be no such weapons. The lives of the people are endangered because when these troubles start even the men who are circumsised join in these battles. The Government should find means to enforce circumcision. One of the things which could be done is that where boys are not being circumcised the stipends of such chiefs should not be increased. (Laughter) The Government should take all the necessary steps to rectify this because allowing the boys to remain uncircumcised results in danger, particularly in Mqanduli where these boys attack people. When people have lost their property the police neglect to trace such lost property . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon, members, may I draw the attention of the hon. member for Mqanduli to the fact that abusive language is not permissible here. You have no right to insult anybody in this House. You must withdraw it. Mr NKOSIYANE: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. I am serious in what I am saying and I would ask the hon. the Minister of Justice to take cognizance of this matter. In fact, the police neglect to do their duty as far

139

case involving a white man; and that it is well known that the greater portion of our budget comes from the Republican Government; and that, further, it is well known that if we started bridging the gap between the white magistrates and the black magistrates we might be subject to query; and that it is well known that when we are independent in the Transkei - completely independent — we shall be able to evolve our own policies on these matters and therefore, hon. members, I do not feel constrained to reply to some of these questions which are known to be ultra vires our powers. I would have loved to have heard criticisms involving those matters which fall directly under the Department of Justice of the Transkei, but these criticisms have been very much conspicuous by their absence, and what am I required to reply to when there were no criticisms? I cannot reply to a vacuum. (Interjections) Most unfortunately the Minister Plenipotentiary and the Minister without Porfolio who was first mover of these criticisms started meandering in a mazy motion not knowing what to say and what not to say, and of Course I had my sympathies with him because although he wanted us to believe that he was a shadow Minister of Justice, in truth and in fact he is a shadow Minister

as missing property is concerned. These people who are doing such abominable work have the assistance of trucks which they use to transport people's stolen belongings. When people have lost property at their homes we hear that a certain truck comes and collects all those belongings. It would seem as though I am repeating myself but why I insist on provision being made for police vans is so that they can patrol the administrative areas during the night. If these areas are patrolled by police vans they should start at Mqanduli and proceed to Kovoti and then police from Kwaaiman could proceed from Kwaaiman to Kovoti and then others can start at Elliotdale and proceed to Mqanduli so that people will not roam about in order to steal. As soon as the sun sets people start moving around in order to steal. Nobody would start driving stock belonging to someone else knowing that the police are patrolling the area. It is our sincere request that the number of police should be increased, as well as the number of police vans. If the police would start patrolling after sundown until 3 a.m. no-one would move about in order to steal. Conditions are not pleasant and the Government should do something about it. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, it seems from what has been said by members of the House that there does not seem to be anything new. I wonder if it is not advisable for the hon. Minister, since there is not even an amendment to this motion, to wind up and reply. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am used to what the hon. chief from Tsolo is saying just now. It is the practice of all cowards after a fight when they do not join in the struggle. He had all the chance in the world to stand up and speak. However, first of all I want to express appreciation for the way in which this policy has been discussed by this House. During my whole nine years as Minister of Justice in the Transkei I have never had a simpler duty to perform that I have to do in replying to the comments that have been made by the hon. members across the floor. Mr H. H. ZIBI: You cut us short.

of Education. He therefore found himself completely out of court when it came to matters involving Justice. However, thank you very much, hon. members, for your constructive criticisms and I move that Vote 2 be accepted by this House. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Say something about the low standard of prosecution in the Transkei. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I am being called upon to say something about the low standard of prosecution in the Transkei. I want to say to the hon. member who is asking that question that he must remember the old adage - where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise. Mr ZIBI: You see, they are fooled around by the lawyers. There is no ignorance there. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And I have seen lawyers being fooled around by prosecutors too, so that what you have seen may not be what has been seen elsewhere and what you have seen is not a decisive example of what is happening in the Transkei. However, the Department is trying to have these prosecutors trained, unlike in the old days when policemen, only when they became sergeants, started prosecuting and you cannot even appreciate that. If at all a prosecutor happens to have a weak case and you see him being fooled about by an attorney you are not going to decide that that prosecutor is weak. We have seen attorneys, too, being fooled around by prosecutors when they have a weak case, so much so that you call them “Vumityala" just because they tell their people to plead guilty. Thank you, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister has moved that Vote 2 should stand part of the schedule and there has been no amendment to it, so I shall put the question. The sum of R2 058 000 in respect of Vote 2, Department of Justice, was passed to stand part of the schedule. House Resumed

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I wonder what will remain of you, Mr Zibi, if I cut you any shorter when you are as short as you are. (Laughter) The whole gravamen of debate centred round the way in which the Republican police carry on their work in the Transkei and elsewhere, and of course nobody who starts barking up a wrong tree does not deserve any attention. It is a well-known fact that the Republican police do not fall under the Department of Justice of the Transkei and, in fact, hon. members are aware of a motion standing in my name for the transfer of all the police in the Transkei to the Department of Justice of the Transkei and therefore at the moment I do not feel constrained to say anything in that respect. I shall say it all when I stand up to move that motion at the appropriate time. Also, there has been so much said about the black magistrates in the Transkei, firstly, not being able to try cases involving white litigants and also with regard to the disparity of the salaries paid to the Transkei citizens vis-a-vis the salaries paid to the white people. You know, it is a known fact that some of us like to bury our heads in the sand in the same style as an ostrich . We pretend not to know that the Transkei is still under the Republic of South Africa and that we are at the present moment wriggling to get loose from the grip of the Republican Government; and that it is well-known that it is the policy of the Republican Government that no black men can ever try

The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 4th April 1974. THURSDAY, 4TH APRIL 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . 140

ANNOUNCEMENTS

is that progress must be achieved through a partnership effort involving lay people, public schools, junior colleges, universities and the Department itself. With these functions in view, it was very fitting of my predecessor to appoint a Commission of Inquiry into the standard of education and examination achievement in the Transkei. The report of the Commission has already been tabled and it is trusted that this epochmaking report will lead to fruitful discussion, debate and decisions.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, the hon. the Chief Minister requested me to announce that the House should excuse him today because of a child who is physically incapacitated at home and he has had to rush home. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, before the hon. the Minister of Education moves that the House sits in committee I would like to crave your indulgence to make one or two announcements. The first one concerns what appears under item 71 (a) in the minutes of yesterday. I do not know whether perhaps it was the omission of the hon. the Chief Minister, but I am advised that the hon. Chief from Willowvale, Chief Tabatile Sigcau, also fell into the same category as the two hon. members whose apologies had to be tendered to the House. I therefore wish to move that his name be included amongst those two members who were marooned . He was also marooned, I am informed, Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Seconded. Agreed to.

In its leadership role, the Department is getting ready to introduce a new structure for education, as announced by my predecessor. The system will redound to the benefit of the child and the parent in that the Std 7 class will be attached to the former Std 6 school thus bringing secondary school within the reach of all . The 12-year structure will save the parent and the child one year's school expense inherent in the former 13-year structure. The new structure will be operative as from 1975. Approved secondary schools will then offer curricula to embrace classes from Std 5 to Std 7 or Std 10, or from Std 8 to Std 10. Then most of the present Std 6 schools will be in a position to introduce, under the control of the Department, the Std 7 class. It should be noted that the former Std 6 examination will be written for the last time in 1974 and will be replaced in 1975 by a public examination at Std 7. As you know, the Std 6 examination was once circuitbased and circuit-controlled but for the past two years it has been centrally-controlled. In view of the big numbers in this class it has become expedient to use a computer in the processing of results. It is regretted that at this initial stage of this service results were available late. Steps will be taken to eliminate a recurrence of delays in the availability of results.

APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, may I respectfully ask this House to convert itself into committee. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee POLICY STATEMENT : MINISTER OF EDUCATION Mr Chairman and hon. members, before I deliver my policy speech, allow me to convey to the House a recommendation by the hon. the Chief Minister which reads as follows:-

For closer and more intimate contact between schools and the inspectorate , the Department is now in a position to implement an earlier decision to create additional circuits and increase the number of circuits from 11 to 24. In addition to this 13 more assistant inspectors' posts have been approved. Another newlycreated post is that of Inspector of Religious Education. This post will fulfil a long-standing need in the education system, you will agree. In a developing world in which new demands upon education are great, it stands to reason that constant renewal of subject matter and its presentation are absolutely necessary. Teachers must therefore keep abreast of the times. The role of in-service training in giving the necessary background to the inspectorate and the teachers concerned with instruction in various subjects cannot be over-estimated. With the new education structure, it is imperative that attention should increasingly be paid to staff development by way of inter alia in-service training in each circuit or district and centrally. The continued help my Department gets from the In-Service Training Centre in the Republic is highly appreciated.

"Recommendation in terms of Rule 128 of the Rules of Procedure. I Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima, Minister of Finance, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed amendment to increase the monetary provision under Vote 3 for the financial year 1974/75, recommend it for the consideration of the Legislative Assembly". Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members - The Transkei Department of Education has three main functions :1. Through leadership, the Department attempts to stimulate and assist educators and citizens in improving the quality of public education. The Department feels that Transkeian boys and girls deserve an education second to none in the world. 2. It offers service and assistance in all areas of instruction and administration through consultative activities available to the schools, people and the Legislative Assembly. 3. Supervision activities are those including (a) training teachers, (b) extension of curricula, (c) administration of educational programmes and (d) disbursement of State and other approved funds.

The Department now enters a phase where positive steps can be taken towards the establishment of university facilities in the Transkei. Attention will be increasingly focussed upon planning in this sector of education in a bid to increased manpower and manpower development. With responsibility of a Department such as mine, so widely distributed, decisions reached centrally must be based on advice from a wide range of interests. Towards meeting this need, my Department, as you will recall, decided to establish a Central Advisory Council. As soon as all the usual formalities have been gone

In supporting the above functions, the general objective of the Department is to help public education keep abreast of the best educational practices, which applies to programmes, organisation and operations in local schools. The official viewpoint of the Department

141

allowances, shows an increase of R1 987 900 which arises from the following:-

through the names of the members will be announced and the Council will start operating.

(a) annual salary increments, (b) 2 additional posts of Circuit Inspector of Education,

The keenness to take advantage of the facilities promoted by my Department to help upgrade literacy and to make the people education-conscious continues unabated. Under the Bureau of Xhosa Language and Culture 80 schools offering literacy classes were established and a further 80 applicants for the establishment of such schools were received . Another project - namely, English through Activity ― is entering its third phase (Std 1 stage) and has reached out to all 24 circuits in the Transkei in its

(c)

13 additional posts of Assistant Circuit Inspector of Education,

(d) 413 additional teaching posts, (e) 17 additional clerical and domestic posts at hostels, (f) an improved daily wage rate for labourers, (g) an improvement in the vacation savings bonus which will now be based on the basic wage plus 171% and

snowballing development. It is gratifying to note that the Toyota Company of South Africa has recently donated an engine to the motor mechanics section of the Technical High School. This school is also poised to cater for the need for trained personnel in various fields.

(h) the provision under expansion of establishment for the creation of 1 000 additional teaching posts as from January 1975 thus bringing the teaching strength to 9678, 21 posts of Clerk Grade II and 21 posts of labourer at high schools, 17 clerical and domestic posts at the Maluti Training School and a post of Inspector of Religious Education.

The coming five years should also see us paying increasing attention to post-primary education. The purpose of education in this sector is mainly to serve the adolescent. We know they are passing through a period of emotional behaviour searching for values and attaining their personalities. We see the world of the adolescent changing rapidly - and for him, at times , disturbingly. His needs and adjustments are often accentuated by this rapid and uneven growth. All this seems to lead me to the conclusion that it is not premature to think of establishing pyschological services and school guidance in the education system. How else are we going to reach the universal goal of providing an opportunity for each student to attain his maximum and personal development?

At this juncture, Mr Chairman, I am pleased to announce that the Republican Government has since made available an amount of R2 837 000 for the purpose of granting salary improvements to teaching personnel with effect from 1st April, 1974. Details of the improvement are not yet available to me but it would appear that the gain by teachers will be considerable. Of the amount mentioned, a sum of R69 000 is required for pension contributions, this to be dealt with by my colleague the honourable the Minister of the Interior, whilst the balance of R2 768 000 will be allocated as follows: Subhead A - R2 751 000 R 17 000 Subhead H

Now I come to the topical matter of the "Transkeianisation" of the Department. As you well know it is the policy of the Government to replace loaned officers from the Republic with suitably qualified or trained Transkeians as and when they are available from the lower to the higher posts at a tempo designed simultaneously to maintain standards and satisfy the need for manifest progress towards an all-Transkeian establishment. My Department is vigorously implementing this policy using the guide-lines that the take-over should be

This means that the wage bill now accounts for 85,41% of the total provision and that Subhead A will show an increase of R4 738 900 instead of R1 987 000 as previously stated . I intend therefore to move at the conclusion of my policy speech that Rules 141 and 142 of this House be suspended for the purpose of increasing the allocations under the said subheads. It will be observed that the staff of the inspectorate has increased from 66 to 107, that the posts of Inspector and Supervisor of Education, and Typist have been abolished and replaced respectively by posts of Circuit Inspector of Education, Assistant Circuit Inspector of Education and Clerk Grade II. These changes result from the re-organisation of the inspection services of my Department which now allows an inspection circuit for each of the districts of the Transkei with the exception of Mqanduli and Port St. Johns which are combined respectively with Elliotdale and Libode. The post of District Clerk has been abolished and is the reason for the reduction of 26 posts of Clerk Grade II under the item Administration. The increase of R1 948 300 under Subhead F Supplies and Services - is the direct result of the

without disruption of the services, in fairness to all, as administrative difficulties arising are solved , and at no inconvenience to anyone . It is with pleasure, Mr Chairman, that I now turn to my Department's Estimates of Expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1975. In saying this, I have in mind the fact that this is the first occasion on which the increase in funds is not almost entirely due to an increase in salaries, wages and allowances. By the nature of things, the wage bill will always exceed by far that of any other expenditure, but it is interesting to note that in comparison with 93,31 % in 1973/74 the wage bill now accounts for only 82,5% of the total provision. A remarkable feature here is that the provision for all other items of expenditure has increased by no less than 224%.

intended introduction of the twelve-year structure in January 1975. As I have already stated, Mr Chairman, one of the main changes which will be brought about by the new structure is that secondary education will commence in Standard 5 instead of in Form 1 as is the case at present. In other words, the higher costs of secondary education will be felt two years earlier than is the position under the present structure and, in the normal course of events, parents would have had to purchase books to the approximate value of

Mr Chairman, it will be noted from the printed estimates that the provision of R17 268 000 represents an increase of R4 132 000 (31,45%) and I propose now to deal with the main items giving rise to this increase. Subhead A, which provides for salaries , wages and 142

adequate time to fight it out to the finish. Now, Sir, before I begin may I just make reference to a matter of procedure to which my attention was drawn after we had dealt with Vote 1. The recommendation was that as we reply to the policy speech of a Minister in respect of his vote we should move the ammendment there and then, so that the principles as well as the items can be dealt with simultaneously; and in order to save a certain hon. member embarassment after he has gravitated in a particular direction from his state of suspended animation, may I seek to have my name substituted for the hon. Mr G. G. Kutu and move the amendment that Vote 3, subhead ( 1) in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R5 500. Now the Government side can see how gracious we can be. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We are going to be gracious in allowing you to move that. We can oppose that.

R35 per child attending either Standard 5, 6 or 7. This would have placed a heavy financial burden on parents, many of whom I am sure would not be in a position to meet the full costs involved. With this in mind and realising that it is essential for each pupil to be in possession of the necessary books, my Department approached the Department of Finance with a proposal that books to a maximum value of R20 per pupil per annum be supplied to pupils in Standard 5, 6 and 7, of whom it is estimated there will be 64 000, as from January 1975. I am happy to state that this proposal was accepted and an amount of R1 280 000 has been placed on the estimates for this purpose. Other items an inaffected by the new structure are furniture crease of R252 000, science and laboratory equipment R259 000 and gardening equipment R5 300. Mr Chairman, there are other increases under the various subheads of my Department's Vote but, as these are due to normal expansion and increased costs of commodities, transport, etc., I do not intend referring to these in detail but I should like to bring to the attention of this Assembly one item which I consider to be of the utmost importance. I refer here to the increase of R24 000 in the grant-in-aid to the Transkei Bureau of Xhosa Language and Culture. We are all aware of the good work being performed by the Bureau in the interests of our people and I am sure that honourable members are aware too of its efforts to bring literacy to our adult illiterates. The special methods used are designed to teach these unfortunate people to read and write in both Xhosa and English and to do elementary arithmetic in the shortest possible time. Courses were first arranged in February 1973 but, because of lack of funds, were discontinued in August of that year and it is for that reason that my Department made representations which have resulted in this increase. The additional money will be used by the Bureau to pay its teachers who, I might add, have been specially trained for this work. Finally, I must pay tribute to my predecessor for the sterling foundations that she laid for educational advancement for the next five years. The same applies to officials seconded from the Republic who give unstintingly of their best. Mr Chairman and hon. Members, I thank you for your attention and now move that Rules 141 and 142 of this House be suspended and that Vote 3 be approved by this committee as printed in the schedule, but that the total amount of the Vote, namely R17 268 000, be amended to read R20 036 000, that subhead A be increased by R2 751 000 to R16 996 500 with item 8 amended to read R4 676 000 and that subhead H be increased by R17 000 to read R169 400 with items 1 and 2 amended to read R109 600 and R59 800 respectively .

Mr GUZANA: You can oppose as much as you like, because you want to cover up. Don't say you are gracious when we are gracious. Mr Chairman, may 1 move that? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to that? Mr H. H. ZIBI : I second. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, as we are not keen to see the Opposition being embarrassed by having no amendment when they intended to have one, this side of the House will have no objection to the name of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition substituted in the amendment. Agreed to . Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I therefore move the amendment:-

"That Vote 3, subhead ( 1) in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R5 500. Sir, we have always dealt with the matter of education on a non-party basis and we are not going to deviate from that position, for this is a matter of general concern for everybody, irrespective of party allegiance. We do feel that this department requires the strictest scrutiny not only from Opposition members but from Government members also, because if we fail in that duty we have failed in what is the most important activity that of providing development of personnel in the Transkei. Sir, we have considerable anxieties about our education . We have well-founded misgivings, we have real apprehensions and we feel that the hon. the Minister of Education, if he is going to receive our criticisms graciously, should not regard them as personal. First of all, I must say that even the most uneducated people in the Transkei have awakened to the need for education . Everybody wants to be able to read, everybody wants to be able to write, everybody wants to be able to have a smattering of English. Nay, indeed, I only say "English", I should say also a smattering of Afrikaans, for nowadays industry and commerce has involved the Englishman and the Afrikaner together and the employee may find himself faced with an employer who speaks the one language or the other in spite of the insistence on bilingualism. You have indicated that there is need for. a partnership in this process of educational evaluation involving the layman, public schools, junior colleges, universities and the department itself. Now, under "lay people" I wonder whether or not your department has come round to accepting the idea of private schools where your department, or the Government through your department, can make available subsidies in order to

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the hon. the Minister of Education has moved that rules 141 and 142 of this House be suspended for the purpose of increasing the allocations under certain subheads of his Vote. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman.

I second,

Mr

Agreed to. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We now come to a stage when I am going to allow the House to make comments on the policy speech and I presume the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will be first to speak. Mr K. M. GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am never one to avoid a challenge and I accept one from the Chairman . I hope that he will give me 143

pression I have now is that we get an expert to help the teachers with their English this year, and it does this for about six months and next year we will have another expert who will do it differently for about three months and the next year we will have another expert who will do it in a different way, and so the whole effort is to no purpose. I have wondered whether or not your department has looked to the other universities of South Africa and liaised with their Departments of Education with a view of keeping a constant and regular contact between our educational system and their developing systems of education. I remember being at the University of Port Elizabeth and how enthusiastic the Department of Education was about giving assistance in any way in the form even of personnel over their holidays in order to inject some life into our educational system. I have wondered, too , whether you have in your department a board, a council or a committee which goes out of the Transkei to recruit teachers whom we want in the Transkei. We cannot sit back and expect teachers to fall into our hands. We must go out and interest them in the educational system of the Transkei and be able to offer inducement to them to make them come, be they black or white, because you have no policy as yet for your independent state. This is the sort of commitment we would like to see in the department of the hon. Minister who is not attending. (Laughter) I am not scolding you, but you seem to think that because you are the Minister of this department the department is yours. You are merely the head there. (Laughter) Then again, you have spoken on the subject of universities and you have expressed the hope that there may possibly be an extension of the university branch into the Transkei, if I heard you correctly. In fact, we have had the University of Fort Hare expressing its desire to extend its facilities to the Transkei. Your predecessor had a committee to look into this matter of the establishment of a university in the Transkei. What happened to that committee? Did it die an unnatural death? What happened to it?

encourage people to run schools privately and control them with a view to lending a hand to the educational upliftment of the people? Under this head I would recommend the establishment also of kindergarten schools which will take care of our children at a very early age ― probably two or three years of age. Let us accept as blackest fact that our homes do not provide the background and the environment that assist a white pupil when he first goes to school . I wonder how many of you ever had the children's book "Baa-baa, black sheep, have you any wool"? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am not going to allow any singing here, hon. members, we are not in a concert. (Laughter) Mr GUZANA: But in the home of a white child these books are the common run of things and they form part and parcel of their toys. Their parents buy picture books for them, buy them all sorts of games in order to stimulate the minds even before the child goes to primary school, and I therefore recommend strongly to this department that it should consider establishing kindergarten schools, particularly in the urban areas of the Transkei as a beginning. Then, Sir, it does not make up for the aches and pains, the anxieties and worries of the parents over the results of the Std 6 examinations to say that the whole matter is regretted , because this department has been regretting over this matter for the last two years. This department must realise that the people do not have a ready source of income to send children away to school. They have to collect this money over the Christmas holidays and also curb their spending to prepare for their children, but when the results come as the schools open, what a catastrophe! This computer which has been introduced, without sympathy and unresponsive to figures fed to it, has a way of causing a great deal of hardship and I am wondering whether or not it deserves the elevated position it has been given in calculating the results and working them out. I am happy to know that at last this department has come round to believing that God is all-powerful and merits a place in the classroom and this department is now prepared to appoint an inspector of religious education. What a confession after ten years! We are happy that you have paid the compliment that is due to your predecessor, but certainly she did omit this all-important figure in your department. For about six or seven years past we have been talking of in-service training, that this is going to help the teachers first of all in giving them information, secondly in training them in new methods of teaching. I have wondered whether or not this has not been done haphazardly up to now and my suggestion is that we should have a school established where teachers go in for inservice training with the best possible instructors for them, that such a school should be run throughout the year, holidays included, so that it can take for about three weeks or a month all the science teachers from a section of the Transkei and then the next three weeks or so all the teachers in English and then teachers in Afrikaans and so on and in this way get them into an atmosphere which is progressive. Whilst the teachers are at this school they will receive their salaries and can therefore pay for their board and lodging whilst at that school . At this school you could have your permanent experts who are constantly in touch with educational developments outside the Transkei and outside the Republic and chanelling these in preparation for the teachers who are going to come in by a process of rotation through this established school which is running throughout the year. The im-

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Strangled. MR. GUZANA: Was it strangled by apartheid or separate development? Or was it imbued with an ambition which overleapt its circumscribed period of activity? We are favourably sensitive over this matter of a university and we would like the hon. the Minister of Education to spell out his programme under this head. I am happy to note that there has been an increase in the allocation of funds for the purchase of books for pupils and school libraries. You have also made reference to the project of "English through Activity" which, I must say, has met with considerable success. I wonder if your department could not consider "Afrikaans through Activity" also? I have been advised that lady teachers responsible for teaching English in the Sub A and B classes have had to dip into their own pockets to buy this textbook of "English through Activity". This costs them about 50c. I wonder if this book could not be included as part of the requisition which is supplied to a school? We cannot afford to risk the teaching of English on the generosity of a lady teacher who may be unwilling to pay 50c. Let the book be available to her willingly. I am also happy to know that under the new programme of shortening the life of the student at school up to matric you have wisely provided financial assistance in the purchase of books to the value of R20 per child. I hope that in the not too distant future all textbooks and all schoolbooks will be supplied free to all children at school. This is a beginning in the

144

right direction and we would like to encourage the department to go a little further than is has gone. You have made reference to the establishment of psychological services and school guidance services in the education system of the Transkei. I think one of the reasons responsible for the high percentage of dropouts from our schools is the fact that our children just drift along with no direction whatsoever. Here is a pupil who is being forced to study, for instance, arithmetic and he has no inclination whatsoever in that direction. He is being fed with physics and chemistry when he does not want to know about that. He would like to know something about the soil, perhaps. Yet it is known that at a very early stage of its life a child begins to manifest its inclinations by the way it plays with whatever it plays, how it learns some things, how it is unable to learn others, and I would urge that this provision is a very, very necessary one. How many geniuses are now skollies and scoundrels just because the teacher who taught them did not know in which direction to guide them. Thus you have the expert at lockbreaking, the expert at busting the safe, the expert at housebreaking - a man with a mind that could have been used profitably if only somebody had been able to see his line of preference in the classroom. Now, Sir, I would like to say to the hon. the Minister of Education that he should please forget about this "Transkeianization" or whatever you want to call it. This idea or separate development is throwing into our language words - Zulu-ization, Vendawe don't ization, Sotho-ization and what have you playing with around while do what we have to do words. (Laughter) Sir, the big thing is to educate our children ― that is all. Whether he is taught by a Zulu,

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : To or by a thousand?? Mr GUZANA: The reading is "for the creation of one thousand additional posts as from January 1975." MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Then it is increasing by a thousand, not to a thousand. Mr GUZANA: Yes, now the reading is "as from January 1975". One wonders whether or not in January 1975 there will be a thousand additional posts. We welcome the improvement of the salary scales of teachers and the improvement of their pension benefits. May I just refer to the Estimates now. I notice that under G the bursaries to pupils have been reduced by R4 400. One would like to have an explanation of that reduction. We notice too that under K the subsidies to stateaided hostels has dropped by R8 000. In view of the fact that the Government has been allocating R10 000 for the compilation of a Xhosa-English-Afrikaans dictionary one would like to receive a report on this compendium. Then, Sir, last year there was considerable concern over the Nyanga Secondary School and we are informed that the principal had his appointment terminated as a result of certain financial deficiencies. We were informed further that there was a pending criminal charge against him. We know that for a long time a building has been standing without a roof as a result of arson at that school. I am sure the hon. the Minister of Education has not kept this out of his policy speech to keep the information back, and now that he has been given a reminder I hope he will make a statement on the position.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Could you clarify yourself for his convenience, What position is that? Mr GUZANA: Clarify the question of the restructure

by a Sotho, by a Xhosa, by a Coloured, by a white man does not matter. Get the children taught in the classroom. Those in the administrative section of your department will certainly teach Africans to take over or to work side by side with them, and let us try to avoid pouring gall and giving a bitter taste to this idea of giving the African a more responsible position . Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if I could not move an adjournment of this debate until 2.15. MINISTER OF JUSTICE The Minister should move. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the Minister move, please. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the House should adjourn.

of the school, the pending criminal charge, how much was involved, etc." etc. Then, Sir, one would like to see stricter control over the transfer of teachers from one school to another. Many principal teachers have told me that they are engaged in what they describe as "hijacking" of teachers along York Road. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Is York Road the point of hi-jack? Mr GUZANA: It seems to be the centre of gravity. (Laughter) The principal teacher interviews a prospective teacher in his school privately, an agreement is entered into and the department is merely informed and merely puts its rubber stamp to that agreement as between principal teacher and assistant teacher. Now, I think there is considerable laxity, therefore, in the control of the transfer of teachers from one school to another and that you will find very soon that some schools are completely depleted while others have an overpopulation of teachers. You cannot seek to have an adequate teaching staff in one school by creating that inadequacy in another school. In other words, you cannot rob Peter to pay Paul because Peter remains robbed. I am wondering whether or not our policy in catching up with the backlog of teachers in our schools should not be to embark on a policy of consolidation of the teaching personnel in each school so that we have our inadequacy in certain specific schools where we will in the course of a year fill up these posts. Let me give an example to make this point clear. Here is school A with a full complement of 20 teachers. Here is school B which should have a complement of 20 teachers but has 18 teachers. You are helping neither school by taking a teacher from school A to reduce the complement to 19 in order to bring the complement up in school B to 19, because both schools now are inadequately staffed. I want to stress this very, very strongly

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I will take the suggestion and move that the House adjourns until 2.15 p.m. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 3, Department of Education, was resumed. Mr K. N. GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, there is therefore no reason to prefer one race group over another in the classroom. There is no reason to over-emphasize a take-over by a Transkeian citizen. The best drawn from all racial groups should be in our Department of Education and at this juncture I want to express my regret that there was created in that department a certain amount of tension. We want to reassure our seconded officials in that department that we regard their services in that department as equally valuable as any other and that if the four points of Transkeianization are observed and become the guiding principles, then we need have no qualms. Well, Sir, the programme is for the increase of teaching posts from January 1975 to one thousand.

145

of this question. The foresight of this Government in discovering ways and means of educating our children properly is very much appreciated. Our children will now have a shorter period at school which is the same as that of white children. The hon. Minister has told us he is going to increase the number of circuit inspectors as well as the clerical staff in the Education Department. There I say the hon. Minister has done very well indeed. We were greatly distressed to find that the number of inspectors is inadequate. For your information I wish to say that some of the schools have never been visited by an inspector. I hope now that the running of the schools will be properly directed. We have a place in our disrict called Madikane. If you visit that school you will have to crawl on hands and knees. (Laughter) You could never get there by car. You can only go on foot and sometimes you have to crawl. I entertain the hope that our children will now be visited by inspectors. I wish to praise the depart. ment for the progress made in the Department of Education. When some people stand up to criticise a department they do so without knowing the administrative machinery of that department. Some speakers are going to say that the teachers are not paid timeously and that the Std. 6 results were delayed. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. chief from Tsolo please sit down. Mr MFEBE: Mr Chairman, I think if we have come here to discuss education seriously we should make it our duty to remain quiet so that we can give a proper report on our return home. The question of education is as important as that of agriculture. We should pay particular attention when we discuss these items. There has been a shortage of teachers for a long time and that is part of the difficulty. In some schools we have to recruit teachers ourselves. I was very happy when I heard there are going to be additional teachers in the schools. I agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he says people nowadays are hungry for education . Even a red-blanketed African is now fully aware and desirous to see the children go to school. Those people who never went to school are now very sorry they did not do so when they had the opportunity. The Education Department has a heavy responsibility and should be given adequate time. They should also be given the best advice so that education in the Transkei will be of a high standard. I listened very attentively to the address of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and I was watching him very carefully. My intention was to recommend to the Methodist Church that he be excommunicated if he went astray but instead I shall recommend him to the Chairman of the Methodist Church for promotion.

because in both schools the teaching of the pupils is completely thrown out of gear, Lastly, but not least, may I refer just one comment to the K-N-N Commis. sion of Inquiry. Turning at random to page 77 and reading on to page 79 you have the most tragic catalogue of the disabilities and the handicaps of our education system in the Transkei. If anything, this is a very, very sad indictment of our Department of Education. One wants to ask the question: What have we been doing over the last ten years if this is the record that comes before us on the appointment of a commission? When it can be said of our principal teachers that they do not efficiently supervise their assistants ? When our teachers are said to lack motivation and are not working hard enough whilst the salary scales are being increased more and more, and more and more? When we can say of the teachers in the classroom that the teachers' teaching load is too heavy and that they have too many subjects to teach? This is after ten years. I would not like to read all that is written down there, but I must wish the Department of Education is going to give some positive attention to these things. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: What do you suggest? Mr GUZANA: Right down in the Western Cape there is an organization of Whites industrialists and businessmen who are white, who are committed to giving financial aid to the teaching of the African child. This is so in Natal and also in the Transvaal, and I wonder if our Department of Education cannot motivate an appeal to the industrialists of the Eastern Cape and the Transkei to commit themselves to some positive contribution in the education of the black child in these parts Now, I hope the hon. the Minister of Education has listened to these criticisms although they have been sugared somewhat. This department should be the pride of everybody, the pride of this Government, the pride of the people of the Transkei. It provides us with the vision of things to come and if we do not have that vision the people of the Transkei will perish. If we are going to generate development in the Transkei and be able to feed the people of the Transkei and be able to advance agriculturally, economically socially, in all ways, we need a population of people who are educated into industry, people who can read and write, people with skills and know-how, people with motivation, people with dedication. If that is not there millions of rand can be poured into the Transkei but our poverty will continue to beget poverty. Since we do not seem to have that vision in the Deparement of Education, the salary of the hon. the Minister of Education should therefore be reduced by R5 500. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr A. MFEBE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, we are now discussing a very important question the question of education. I am almost certain that those who have acquired education at night school will not be able to understand what is going on here. They will not be able to understand the implications in this matter. I want to commend the hon. the Minister of Education and to state that he has done very well . The achievements listed in his policy speech could not have been attained by many. He has rectified all the shortcomings which obtained in education previously. I realise that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has got some brains and I only wonder how we can get him over to this side of the House and create him a Minister. (Laughter) From the beginning he said the subject of education is above party politics and that is why I suggest that members who have only attended night school will not be able to understand the implications

(Laughter) He is about to become an evangelist. Mr Chairman, I hope the progress will continue until we reach the final goal. I am very grateful to the seconded officials who have performed their duties very satisfactorily. It would be a wonderful thing if, although they are white, they could have black hearts. We are black and our hearts are white inside. (Laughter) These seconded officials have performed wonderful work in the Transkei in assisting the Education Department. I am happy to notice that from year to year the salaries of the teachers are increased . The bonus might be an incentive to keep the teachers in the Transkei. Mr H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has, in his healthy and constructive remarks, covered all the ground contained in the policy speech of the hon. Minister.

146

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, there is a persistant murmuring and laughter in that corner. I am very mindful of how to deal with it and I hope people will not regret. Continue, hon. member. Mr ZIBI: In the circumstances it will now be our business to pinpoint the flaws of the Department of Education meaningfully so that they are subsequently corrected. We are on education, which indeed is the only weapon at our disposal by which our presence could be felt by the civilized world. We are on that great principle of the greatest teacher ever who said : Feed my lambs . We are now busy on education, trying to prepare for those little lambs to be properly fed. In pointing out the shortcomings of the Department of Education I am not unmindful of the fact that the hon. Minister is quite new to the department, but the department is old . Might I please start on the inspectorate. He says in his policy speech that there are two posts for circuit inspectors that have still to be filled. My anxiety is this ― why were these appointments not made when the other appointments were made last year? We would be happy if the hon. Minister could make a comment on this because this is subject to a good deal of misinterpretation, if it is misinterpretation at all. The question is : who is the nigger in the woodpile? Is it the employer here - the Public Service Commission ― or is it the department itself that is to blame for not having filled these positions to this date? With due respect to the department I shall not Please protect me, Mr Chairman, from these howling dogs. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Give the hon. member his chance.

Minister to supply us with a statement in respect of the transfer of the principal teacher from Ngangelizwe High School to Nyanga school, and also a statement on how the principal who succeeded the one who was transferred to Nyanga got back to the Transkei. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where was he? Mr ZIBI: It is really painful to find that some of these principal teachers are made commercial travellers by the Department in transferring them from school to school. (Laughter) As the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said, a principal teacher, at least with some matter in him, has to organize his team of teachers and when this poor fellow feels he has got together a good team then comes the department and nips it in the bud by taking one or two of the teachers to another school -- and this in the secondary and high schools, mark you. May I just pass on to what our leader referred to as "Xhosa-ization" of the department in the Transkei. My question to the hon. Minister is that the understudies whom I am told have been drawn from the circuit inspectorate of the Education Department in the Transkei into the positions they at present hold, may I know if these posts we advertised? If not, it only means they still belong to their respective circuits and my question is : If they have to go back to their respective circuits what do they want here at all ? He has said something about the classification of the schools in the Transkei. They are going to be junior secondary schools or secondary and high schools, and I assume that there is going to be subject-teaching from Std . 5 level. ACTING CHIEF G. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of Education . So important is the speech that I assume that hon. members on both sides of the House will support it. We are very much obliged to appreciate and accept the policy speech on the following points : What we have seen explained in the policy speech are facets of matters which have been planned by this department and intended to be implemented. One among many of the aspects to be brought out is the number of teachers who are to be employed, although I know that people will never refrain from criticism even on that score. Another thing is the change-over which is envisaged during 1975. I am quite certain that all the parents of the children in the Transkei will receive this with gratitude.

Mr ZIBI: I do not wish to disclose my information as to why these have not been appointed because of the respect I have for the department. We will recall that last year we passed an Act here of which one of the provisions was that the inspectors had to use the Alcotester. We would be happy to hear what the results are. Has the incidence of drunkenness and misconduct decreased? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Was the Alcotester meant to reduce it or increase it? Mr ZIBI: My information is, hon. members, that the inspectors who are making use of it strictly to the letter of the Act are very unpopular with the teachers today. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Unpopular for doing their work?

In regard to the late publication of the Std. 6 results it appears that the hon. the Minister of Education has forestalled our complaints. The department was quick enough to explain the position to this House and to the citizens . To prove to what extent the parents and the children were inconvenienced, some of the children have even lost the prospect of scholarships and failed to get to school timeously on account of the delay in publishing the results. I think due thanks must be given to the man who sees things ahead, rather than the person who will act solely on advice. That is why I say we must express appreciation of the policy speech to the hon. the Minister of Education, because he has had some foresight in these things even before they were brought to his notice.

Mr ZIBI: Yes, and when some of them choose to retire and commit the same offence with the teachers I put forward the question: Who is going to guard the guard? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which are the unpopular ones? Those that commit the same offence with the teachers or those that do not? Mr ZIBI : I am aware in one district that there is an inspector whose life has been threatened for this kind of thing. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which kind of thing? The Alcotester or drinking with the teachers? Mr ZIBI: I go further ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, don't go further. Answer the question.

Another matter which deserves our praise is that in their future plan there is provision for the establishment of a university. It is one of those things in which the people of the Transkei have a very keen interest. One other matter that deserves our thanks and appreciation is the fact that the Toyota Company has given

Mr ZIBI: • • and get to the question of the transfers which was mentioned by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . May I please localize this in order to drive the matter home. I wish to request the hon. 147

sult quite a lot of our children are today in the streets who should otherwise have been in for training. That is just where we feel your policy is stinking. Now, may I mention the question of salaries. If the hon. Minister saw the scores of teachers who came round here after the break-up of school these holidays, you would really agree with us that something has got to be done about the teachers' salary cheques. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: But an explanation has been given. Mr ZIBI: Where it becomes a puzzle MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You have been told it is

an engine to the technical college. It is the desire of the parents that their children must be given education in all its diversified facets. Such a step will now obviate the difficulty we have been experiencing, more especially when we send our motor vehicles to garages, because we shall now have people who have been thoroughly trained . Another commendable aspect is the rise in the salaries of teachers. As we are on the borders of the Transkei and Ciskei we often hear rumours from Transkeian teachers threatening to cross over on account of the encouraging salaries paid by the Ciskeian Government. We think that the amount which has now been voted under Education will be an incentive to keep our teachers in the Transkei. In the envisaged number of teachers who are supposed to be employed by 1975 I would reccomend that even female married teachers should be employed. I am quite certain that when you deliver your policy speech in 1975 even those who seem to be ready to throw criticisms at you will have nothing to criticise. So well prepared is your speech that even the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the members of the Opposition have really nothing to criticize except to contribute constructively to the policy. We also appreciate the fact that the number of inspectors has been increased. We trust now that there will be fewer complaints emanating in regard to the Department of Education on account of the increased number of inspectors . Another matter I would commend for the consideration of the House is that these Alcotesters be supplied to chairmen of committees in order that they can be used on some of the teachers so that they will not be able to evade detection if they have taken liquor, because the inspectors are far away from the schools . (Laughter) I would suggest that these Alcotesters be supplied also to the principal teacher of the school, but there is the difficulty that he might be the main culprit in imbibing liquor. (Laughter) Alternatively we could be supplied with these testers because we do not partake of alcoholic drinks. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, with that subject-teaching it would mean that teachers who have a matric certificate would go to the secondary schools and we would then require teachers for the primary school. To my surprise this department, despite the acute shortage of teachers, went out of its way to close the training school at Mvenyane. Consequently a recommendation was made at departmental level, but the department remained adamant. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, I do not know whether the hon. member wants to anticipate his own motion. He has got a motion on the opening of the Mvenyane school and he is starting to discuss it now. MR. ZIBI: Because that motion will never come before this House. I know this House. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We cannot be hoodwinked by that. Mr ZIBI: I withdraw then. As I say, a recommendation was made and the department remained adamant. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member withdraw what he said about Mvenyane. Mr ZIBI: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. I am aware the Maluti that another training school was put up Training School. Someone might want to say it is a replacement but I do not consider it so. Your department has again put in policy in so far as the running of that new school is concerned. My information is that a directive was sent to the principal that nobody should be taken at that school except a Sotho child. As a re-

going to be remedied. Mr ZIBI: It is a puzzle in that a principal teacher who has been in the same school for years does not get his salary cheque. The hon. member for Nqamakwe who asks what I know about teaching perhaps remembers that years ago I was a teacher and that when he was busy trying to struggle for a teacher's certificate when we met, I already had that certificate. In any event, we are trying to point out these things so that you will see to the rectification of some of the anomalies we have today mentioned . Your department has got to appreciate one fact ― that in the Maluti region to which I referred a few minutes ago there is going to be anarchy caused by this tribalism, so that the Nguni parents in the region will soon, and justifiably, think that your department is encouraging that anarchy which today is there in that particular region. What does the hon. Minister do when he gets to some place to address a meeting, and getting there he physically being present sees some of his teachers get drunk in front of him? What is his attitude to that? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I have never seen that. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What do you expect him to do? Mr ZIBI: In closing up, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Justice is worrying about the fact that after telling us a lot of tripe yesterday he quickly arranged to close his policy debate before anyone could say anything about it. Please see to the question of the transfers which is destroying our schools, Mr. Minister. We are not going to excuse you because you have only been four or five months in the department, because the department has been there since the inception of this Government and we don't want to suggest that your department, from what we perceive, may be one of the most corrupt in the Transkei . Something has got to be done to correct this. Before I sit down I wish to extend our heartfelt and sincere thanks to your department for having at least put up some secondary school blocks in our area. I am aware that the Department of Roads and Works put up the buildings, although it came from your department. The next thing we are excepting is some hostels. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr M. P. LUDIDI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it does not only please me to have to speak on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education, but also satisfies me to have to do so because the Education Department is one of the most senior and important portfolios in any given government. Its great and weighty importance and its social, cultural and economic relevance may best be expressed in the old statement the pen is mightier than the sword. Mr. Chairman, to illustrate my point I crave the indulgence of narrating a short story. It was in the late 1960s when a US aircraft carrier anchored in Table Bay with a totally Negro crew of the US navy from

148

South Vietnam on their way to the United States of America. On chatting with some of the members of the crew they pointed to education as a way to freedom. Ironically I ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to waive the rules of grammar and give me licence to use the word "freedom" as a synonym for independence. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, though it is not safe to overemphasize the effect and impact of tension on the attainment of national freedom and national prosperity, for that matter, I must admit that most political and social changes have been the direct result of the far reaching effects of education on certain individuals. In France the revolution was brought about by the educated and enlightened classes, namely the artisans, merchants , doctors, lawyers, etc. The agrarian and industrial revolutions in 18th-century Britain were pioneered by the educated. The so-called Poqo riots of the early 1960s were, in the final analysis, born of education, though the protagonists of that movement had no riotous means in mind whereby they intended to achieve the abolition of the pass laws. Mr. Chairman, in spite of the dire criticism by the Opposition of some of the practices in the policy of the Education Department, which criticism may have a blunting effect on the policy of the hon. the Minister of Education, you will agree with me that nobody expects an illiterate man to formulate a clear and definite policy, as this task seems to throw out even educationally able figures like the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and Sir de Villiers Graaff. As my mention of the effect of education is subject to misinterpretation and exploitation by certain political cavillers and fault-finders, I am obliged to make a further clarification on the issue. In anticipation of such possible misinterpretation and exploitation let me say I by no means imply we should make use of the education system put before us to take Transkei children and make revolutionaries out of them. What I want to say, and to say explicitly, is that education particularly the one aimed at in the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Education ― is an eye-opener and has power socially, economically and otherwise. Daniel Jenkins in his book "An Educated Society" writes: "With the advent of the educated society the highly educated will not only have an increasing power as controllers, but will also be able more and more to dictate the terms upon which they will provide their services to the rest of the community." Woe unto those in this House who think that the hon. the Minister of Education, when he was Minister of Health, was incapable of good leadership when he dictated his terms with regard to the appointment of Dr. Bikitsha and also with regard to the Africanization of the teaching staff in Transkeian schools. Mr. Chairman, I am still on the subject of the farce of the hon. members of the Opposition and their tendency to make mountains out of molehills, but I wish to assure the hon. the Minister of Education of the unfailing support of most Transkeians, and wish further to ask him not to worry about the unflagging criticism mixed with innumerable salient suggestion from individuals who were apparently created only to see the seamy side of life, while reluctant to admit that they are pursuing lives of sunshine and rain. I anticipated the unrelenting criticism of the Opposition and also of the isolated anomalies that arise in the implementation of the Education Department's policy. They mention the late release of the examination results, Africanization, Venda-ization and such 149

things; they speak about inspectors drinking with teachers. In short, though they make concessions and admissions, the main import of their comments conveys regret and criticism. I ask: What do they declare by this to all Transkeians? Do they think your honest policy is fit only for a Utopian society where all men live in accord without one jarring sentiment, without one dissenting feeling? It is now ten years and the time has come when the hon. members of this House should make a frank and honest admission of improvement in the Education Department, and do it not with halfhearted, reluctant mouths. Mr. Chairman, there is no point in my repeating the irregularities which arise in the administration of the Department of Education, as the hon. Minister is aware of these anomalies and has indicated his department's intention in connection with them. CHIEF T. N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think it is right that people should just talk for the sake of talking without knowing what, in fact, is of great importance, such as the speech made by the last speaker. Mr. Chairman, it is said that the white people should leave the Transkei . Now they are leaving the villages and these white people had their children in those towns and they attended school in those towns. There were school buildings erected there for use by the white children. Today those buildings are not being used. The black people living in those towns have children of schoolgoing age but their children occupy some other buildings lent to them by private people. The parents of those children do approach the local magistrates with a view to obtaining permission to use those school buildings, but in turn they are referred to the department. Thereafter the parents have made attempts to visit the department. We are meeting this difficulty, that when the parents approach the department in order to ask for permission to use the buildings they are refused. In some of the towns the schools have been left vacant by the Whites for a period of fifteen months and those buildings are still not being used. It will now be said of those towns that they are occupied by ghosts and evil spirits. The parents have offered to hire those buildings, or they suggested that the department could hire them, but permission has not been granted . We ask the hon. the Minister of Education to take cognizance of this and make suitable arrangements. I shall now come to the question of religious instruction in schools. We are grateful for this provision, but the teaching of religion should not occupy the greater portion of time and the children being taught only the story of Adam and Eve. (Laughter) We would rather the children were given general

knowledge in education and that religious instruction could be attended to at Sunday school. We are grateful that more secondary schools are being constructed in the administrative areas. The department has been making promises that hostels would also be built. It is quite necessary and a matter of urgency that these hostels should be established. The way in which these children are accommodated at present is not one that can be approved by the parents, as it will be seen that when the children are given accommodation in private homesteads they are given a hut to themselves where they are not controlled by anybody and they do as they like. It is our desire that when a child is attending school he should be under strict control. The child can have all his freedom when he leaves school. In a few cases

the church people do make some sort of provision for the boarding of schoolchildren, but that is insufficient. We hope that you will take note of this and see to it that boarding-departments are also established . Much has been said about the delay in the payment of teachers' salaries. The computers are generally blamed for this. Why must you buy these secondhand computers? You should try to get a useful computer. If these computers can count they should count correctly. (Laughter) Probably these computers can do the calculating correctly, so it may be that the people who work with them use them incorrectly. In truth the teachers are not well treated by this delay in their salary cheques because they have many commitments to meet. Some have to pay certain policies, and how can a man remain for three months without receiving his pay? We beseech you, hon. Minister, to see to it that your computers are in good order. They should be able to spell the names of these people correctly and not make mistakes, because if a person has been given a cheque with the wrong name the owner of the cheque will not be able to draw the money. Similarly, this applies to examination results when the marks obtained by students have to be recorded . These computers sometimes give the results of a child who has never even attended school. (Laughter) Mr M. E. DEKEDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it pleases me to speak after the hon. chief from Libode who has said nothing except one item where he referred to the hostels which should be built by the Government. Fortunately, I have been in this department practically all my life and when these secondary schools were started I was already a teacher. If you go to the Education Department either in the Transkei or in Pretoria you will find that when a location applies for a secondary school they apply for a day secondary school. It surprises me to find that when the numbers increase in these secondary schools they go back to the Government to ask them to build a boarding-school. I would rather ask all those people who require the department to build hostels to reapply and in that respect the department will have to consider whether a hostel should be built there or not. Now, I have taught under three departments in my life and therefore I am able to draw a parallel. I was first a teacher under the Cape Education Department, then in 1955 we were transferred to Pretoria under the Bantu Education Act. I have now been teaching under the Transkeian Government, so I am able to make the comparison between these three and decide which is the best. Before that I want to make some comments on what was said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I do not think he is aware that we . have some private schools in the Transkei and I want to tell him now that we have them and they have been approved by the department. I am not going to say much on this question of the Std 6 results because it has been said over and over again. The House has been told that these results have been delayed because of the computer. If one does not want to believe it, one must be told that we are going through a transition stage. If one has taken music you should know what happens when you change from one key to another . . . Mr K. M. GUZANA: You don't remain on the false note all the time. You must change over. Mr DEKEDA: . . . more so if you are being driven from one key to another. In no uncertain terms the hon. the Minister of Justice confirmed this yesterday

that we have been going under the Republican Government and we are taking over from the Republican Government to run our own government. Now, there is something the hon. the Leader of the Opposition remarked about and that is the in-service training for teachers. In 1967 the Transkeian Government did start these courses, but is it fair when teachers are going to be asked to pay when they take these courses? Mr GUZANA: For their board. What are they going to eat? Mr DEKEDA: Then he also tells the House we should try to get the assistance of a university. I would like to tell the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that that is why our Government is embarking on having our own university. Now I want to return to the question of the transfers, which is worrying some of the members. As I have told them before, I have been a teacher practically all my life. If you go to the offices of the department you will find that every teacher has a file and I want to tell this House that the department on many occasions does find that a certain teacher is failing in a certain location. From my own experience, if he has failed in one location he becomes a success in the next location. I have known of one teacher who failed in three schools as a teacher and when he was transferred to the fourth school he turned out to be a very good teacher. Now, if the hon. members do take advantage of reading the report which is called the K-N-N Commission report, I will ask them whether they do not agree that that report on the children who drop out is perfectly correct. I admire the members of this commission in that particular. One of the reasons which causes our children to drop out is the distance from their homes to the school, and another reason is those locations which have not accepted the rehabilitation scheme, because the boys take a long time to get to school when they have to look after the stock. When these big boys do come to school and they find the younger girls in the upper classes they get disheartened. I want to refer to what was said by one hon. member of the House in regard to supervision by school principals. I don't blame any teacher who is principal of a school for not supervising the classes below him in a proper and satisfactory manner, because at the present time no - principal has no class in any school. Every teacher has to have a class and therefore it becomes difficult for any man to supervise the other classes. I would have agreed with the hon. members on the other side if the hon. Minister of Education had been

requested to encourage teachers' organizations, because in my district we have some of the teachers lecturing on some of the subjects which they have to deal with. One is even appointed to conduct discussions on the difficulties of the teachers from each school. This allows us to give the department time until they are able to build schools where we can send our teachers to in-service teacher-training. I think we have to admire the vision of our department in the new structure which is being started next year. The debate was adjourned. House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 5th April 1974. FRIDAY, 5th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. ADOPTION OF MINUTES MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I think on page 90 of the minutes there is a 150

you know, chiefs usually have various wives and the head of a particular house is usually a chief in his own place. Now, Smuts is a direct descendant of Ndamase. He is the grandson of Notsolo Bokleni. I think Notsolo is well known to everyone in this House and Notsolo Bokleni is "qadi" son to the Great House of Bokleni. He is the head of the Simanzi Tribal Authority in the Libode district, comprising an area of eight administrative areas. He has been a headman since July 1970. Meetings of the tribesmen in the area of the proposed chieftainship were held and they unanimously resolved that Smuts Ngqanga Ndamase be appointed chief with jurisdiction over the eight administrative areas and head of the Simanzi Tribal Authority. The tribal authority was also unanimous in its support of the proposed chieftainship, while the paramount chief of the area supported the creation of the chieftainship. The regional authority at its meeting resolved that Headman Smuts Ndamase be designated chief of the Simanzi Tribal Authority area. I move, Mr Chairman, that this House resolves in support of this motion. Thank you. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support this motion. The Nyanda region is grateful to the hon. the Chief Minister for piloting this motion. In fact and in truth, what I now say should be dealt with by the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni. We are grateful that the designation of "headman" has been removed from this son of Notsolo because even his grandfather used to be regarded as a chief by the Bunga, but as far as the Government was concerned he was regarded as a headman. We are thankful today that he is being made a chief. Anybody who knew Notsolo believed that he was a direct younger brother of the paramount chief, so it surprised people that he was called a headman because people regarded him as a chief and even when they saw him they addressed him as such. We are thankful that you have made him a chief and we hope that other chiefs will also be regarded as such. We would that in the other districts and administrative areas the children of chiefs should also be regarded as chiefs and not as headmen. It is true that Ngqanga is the son of Notsolo and Notsolo is the son of Bokleni in the "qadi " of the Great House. I have not much more to say except that we are grateful.

slight mistake. I am referred there as having seconded a request by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to have his name substituted for that of the hon. member, Mr Kutu. I did not second, Mr Chairman, I only intimated that this side of the House would not object to the substitution. That was seconded by another hon. member from the Opposition benches. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The matter has been noted . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed, after amendment. ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have received information through the Press that a memorial service is to be conducted today in memory of the late hon. member for Mount Ayliff, Mr C. M. C. Ndamse. I think this was contained in a report in the Daily Dispatch on Monday, 1st April, if I am not mistaken, and the time of the service is 12 noon. The report further says that there will be a funeral at his home in Mount Ayliff on Saturday that is, tomorrow. In view of that I think every member in this House will agree with me that we should attend this memorial service at Ncambedlana and I would indicate to the House that I will move the adjournment of the House at 11.30 so that the members should be at Ncambedlana by five minutes to 12.

NOTICE OF MOTION CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I have a noncontentious motion to move and it concerns the designation of a certain chieftainship in Libode district. My department is anxious to get this matter submitted to the State President for his approval and as I am going to read the notice of motion I would request a waiver of the rules so that the matter may be decided immediately. It is a very short motion and I do not think anyone will object to this motion. I move the waiver of the rules so that we can proceed straight away. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. CREATION OF CHIEFTAINSHIP : NYANDA REGION

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to move:(1) that whereas the Nyanda Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section ( 1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) resolved that a new chieftainship be created in respect of the Pondo Tribe Resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Simanzi Tribal Authority in the Libode District and that Headman Smuts Ngqanga Ndamase be designated Chief thereof;

Motion put and carried unanimously. APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to move that this House sit in committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to.

(2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei.

House in Committee The debate on Vote 3, Department of Education, was resumed.

(3) Now, therefore, this assembly recommends to the State President, in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 : (a) the creation of a new chieftainship in the Libode district in respect of the Pondo Tribe resident within the area of the Simanzi Tribal Authority; and (b) the confirmation of the designation of Headman Smust Ngqanga Ndamase as Chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as Chief. Mr Chairman and hon. members, the subject of this motion, Headman Smuts Ngqanga Ndamase, complies with the primary prerequisite of designation as chief, namely the customary right to recognition as such. As

Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members , I wish to comment on this policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Education. It has already been stated that this matter should be regarded as being above party politics. I will speak accordingly. One thing I do not agree with is the statement that this department is the most important of all the departments. Probably in passing one could say, but the fact remains that all these departments are equally important. If you examine any of the departments you will find it is important in itself. Similarly, one could say the eye is the most important part of the body, or the ear or any other portion, but looking at the body as a whole you will

151

Another question which requires attention is the number of pupils in the sub-standards. It should also be observed that the new female teachers who are beginning work should take an interest and show some kindness to the infants. I have found that the older women teachers have a motherly kindness to infants who attend school and thus they encourage attendance at school by these infants. I do not wish to talk about my own business, but I am interested in these children who are too young to go to school. In regard to the feeding scheme the people do not appreciate the benefits of this scheme. They will say they have no money and yet as a storekeeper I find numbers of children coming to my store to buy sweets. If this money were used instead for the purchase of soup in the schools it would be of far more benefit. Mr C. DABULA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I will address myself to the Department of Education which is a very important department. Many changes have been effected in this department since 1965 with the aim of improving the standard of education. Mr " Chairman, I would request the hon. the Minister of Education to please elucidate on the meaning of this new structure. As far as I can understand Std. 7 will be added to the Std. 6 school. In the Transkei there is usually an inadequacy of accommodation in the Std. 6 schools. There are not enough classrooms. In his policy speech the hon. Minister mentioned that the Std. 6 examinations will be held for the last time in 1974 and in 1975 the new structure will come into operation. I would like the hon . Minister to explain fully how he proposes to meet the shortage of accommodation, since the position is bad enough as it is now on account of the lack of accommodation in the Std. 6 schools. That is one point I should like to be explained by the hon. Minister. According to the policy speech again, there is provision for an inspector of Religious Education. I would again like an explanation from the hon. Minister as to who will be responsible for the drawing up of the syllabus for religious instruction. Will it be the inspector or the department ? I am aware that we have no provision at present for an inspector but once there is an inspector the teachers will be in an awkward position if they do not adhere to the syllabus . Another point which is well worthy of our appreciation is the gesture by the department in subsidizing the purchase of books for the pupils. The hon. member who has just sat down mentioned the dwindling number of schoolgoing children and he ascribed it to the fact that young and inexperienced female teachers are employed. That is not a matter which can be blamed on the department because the prinicpal teacher has a great deal to do with deciding which teacher is suitable for certain classes. It is for the principal teacher who is responsible for the administration of his school to choose more suitable teachers to teach the younger children. My last point refers to the inspectors. We recommend that inspectors should not concentrate their activities on schools which are near the villages and neglect those which are far away. If there is no road leading to a particular school they must find some means of reaching the school, since there is a school in existence there. Another point I would like enlightenment on is that usually the Std. 6 schools have principals with a PH certificate. Now, if you are going to add Std. 7 you might get a teacher who is matriculated . Who is going to check the work of this matriculated teacher now? If it is found that the work in Std. 7 is of a low standard, who is to answer for it ? Is it the principal

find all these parts are equally valuable. If we had no Department of Roads how would we have any roads? CHIEF MINISTER : Are you discussing the policy statement? You are wasting time. Mr JAFTA: It is only right that we should make certain criticisms as far as this Department of Education is concerned. When you consider the question of bursaries you will find that this year there is a smaller allocation in the Estimates. This is a most grievous fault because bursaries are an aid to schoolgoing children. It is probable that no publicity has been given to these bursaries so that the people do not know they are available. This is essential. Coming to the matter of record books, as far as the primary schools are concerned there are three different types of forms, namely TE.25, TE.26 and TE.27 and there is also the syllabus. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member. Hon. members of the House, we are discussing a very important matter on education and I have counted more than ten members of this House going out, despite the fact that we have just opened. No more members should go out of this House now. Mr JAFTA: One of these TE forms should be done away with, leaving only two forms together with the syllabus. I say this because one form repeats the matter that is contained in another TE form. I bring this to the attention of the hon. the Miniser of Educaion in order to eliminate unnecessary work, because the teacher is expected to teach the children. As a result of these multiple forms the teacher is fully occupied with the completion of these forms and yet he is expected to devote his time to teaching the children . Passing on to something which has caused a great deal of discussion in this House, in regard to the computer and the mistakes which have occurred, when you consider a period of two years and take into consideration the repetition of the mistakes which have occurred, it is a long time. Can the computer not be checked in order to find out whether it is in order before anything is put into it? Passing on to libraries, it is essential that there should be libraries in the rural schools and it is only right that a start should be made . There are people who can donate books suitable for children. I am one of those. Even at the residence of the Commissioner-General there are certain books which would be suitable for young children to read in the schools. Those books could be donated to such libraries. The principals and the inspectors of schools should take note of this matter. The school committees could form a chain between the school and the people and the Department of Education. The committees do not work as they should do and I say it all depends on the school inspector and the principal teacher, because the school inspectors and the principals are the people to bring the committee closer to the school in order that the committee should attend to such matters. In short, the inspector should check on how many times the committee meets and also on the minutes of the meetings, to find out what was discussed. The inspector would then be able to give advice and suggest other matters which could be dealt with by the school committee. I do not believe that in making these suggestions I will be placing a burden on those people. When the members of these school committees are being appointed, those people who are enlightened and have an interest in the education of children should be appointed as members . Even women could become members of such committees , particularly those who have been educated themselves and are interested in educational matters .

152

who holds the PH certificate or the teacher who is teaching the Std . 7 class? I am putting these questions because the people are going to require us to explain this transition. Another commendable aspect of the policy speech which I appreciate, and which will be appreciated by the teachers, is the increase in their salaries. There is a further matter which we recommend for consideration. The Department of Roads and Works erects very substantial buildings and we request that during the vacation there should be some sort of watchman or caretaker to look after these structures. Mr Chairman, it is quite unsightly when one is passing these schools to find that the gates are broken and livestock is roaming around the premises. Will the hon. Minister please cover these points during his reply to the debate. It is often found that some of these buildings are not fenced in. Sometimes it is quite a common thing to find unruly boys throwing stones at the windowpanes. It is for these reasons that we request that caretakers should be appointed. Mr S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am pleased to be able to speak after the last speaker. It was stated from the beginning that we should treat this matter as being above party politics and that is the truth and the whole truh, because we all want to put right the manner in which education is brought to our children. The opportunity we have now been given is intended for us to make certain criticisms. The reason I said I was pleased to speak after the last speaker is because he correctly made certain criticisms. When we make such criticisms in connexion with education we are trying to assist the hon. Minister because we do not expect him to know everything that takes place. In Engcobo a new procedure is being followed by the circuit inspectors, namely that it becomes the duty of the teachers to collect all the record books at a certain spot which has been decided upon by the school inspector, for examination. That was introduced at the end of February. Again at the end of February the teachers were required to bring all their notebooks to a certain spot where they would meet the school inspector, despite the fact that these circuit inspectors are provided with XG cars in order that they should visit these individual schools to carry out their inspections. As these teachers are going to transport these books and records to a spot indicated by the inspectors, they have to use buses and pay money out of their own pockets. Some of them have to travel as much as 50 miles. They are usually called to these different points on school days. Again, at the end of every month the inspectors convene meetings in Engcobo for the teachers. I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to these matters. Mr Chairman, I also wish to point out certain faults which prevail in the Engcobo district as far as this department is concerned. The children who attend Nyanga High School live under difficult conditions in the locations. Could something not be done so that they can be accommodated in a certain boarding-house which was formerly used by a principal? We usually receive adverse reports in connexion with their characters because they live out in these locations. The people who reside around All Saints have a very big complaint. When you take into consideration the children who are accommodated there, some of them come from Johannesburg, others from Cape Town and elsewhere in the Republic and they differ from the local children in regard to their upbringing. As a result of this many unbecoming things happen. As I said when I started speaking, this is a

matter which has been placed above party politics and I only desire to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to these points . Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, said it was stated that the Department of Education was one of the most important departments. The hon. member suffers from deafness and I think he must go back to school. What was said was that the Education Department is one of the important departments in the Government of the Transkei. Again, the hon. Mr Zibi from Mount Fletcher said something about the two posts of inspectors and he asked whether these posts had been advertised or not. The hon. member does not know that the hon. Minister has the right to employ anybody in his department. Now, I will come back to the Estimates. We have this Miscellaneous Expenditure of R44 000 under subhead E. To my mind I feel that some of this money should be spent on a feeding scheme for the children because there are times when there is need for food to be supplied at school. Again, the hon. the Chief Minister said something of importance in connexion with compulsory education. Coming to the question of this computer, during the hon. the Chief Minister's policy speech he said there are two Transkeians who are studying this computer science and this therefore gives us hope that there will be no more late results. Mr Chairman, I should like to direct my remarks now to the hon. the Minister of Education in regard to the games played in the primary schools. These games take too much time from the tuition of the children. These games are composed of music for competitions, games and physical training? Mr K. M. GUZANA: Don't you want cultural education? Don't you know that is cultural education? CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : I also appreciate the fact that the teachers' salaries have been raised. It is proper that the salaries of teachers should have been raised before now, because they incur extra expenses by being required to attend certain courses by the department. These teachers are unfortunate because they do not get any special allowances when they attend these courses. I am thankful for the new structure in education because we had difficulty in getting accommodation for our children who had to attend secondary school in Form I. We would go up and down the country trying to find accommodation for our children. I would also suggest to the department that the teachers who hold the NPL certificate should be discarded and over and above that they should not be principals of schools. It should be compulsory for a principal of a primary school to have a matric certificate. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The members are making too much noise. Please be quiet, hon. members . CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : I come now to the matter of hostels in the Transkei. The hostels which are under the administration of church authorities must, through negotiation between the Government and those authorities, be released for administration by the Transkeian Government. The condition of some of these hostels is most alarming. Sometimes I feel embarrassed if I take visitors to see these hostels in Tsomo, for example. The hostels which are administered by the church authorities always cause some friction and difficulty in their administration because of the dual control in their administration. I am grateful to the Government for the grant of R64 000 for the children who are going to start Stds. 5, 6 and 7. It was estimated that each child would be

subsidized to the tune of R20. It is quite an onerous 153

this policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. If I remember correctly, the last time I addressed the House I mentioned the feeding scheme and I laid stress on the importance of a feeding scheme in our schools. I went further to explain that the parents of the children do not realise the importance of the feeding scheme. This is what they usually say: Where shall we get the money to purchase food for this scheme? As far as I am concerned this is just ignorance on the part of the parents because usually the children are given money to buy sweets and other such commodities from my shop. They should realise that the food value of these sweets is less than that of the juice of a lemon. Again, the Department of Education should consult with the Health Department because health educators could assist a great deal to improve the health of our children. I think I have made this sufficiently clear. In Sulenkama our secondary school is suffering from a scarcity of water. There is also a girls' hostel and because water is so scarce in that vicinity the school-children have to walk some distance to obtain water from the pools. As a result the young boys are wont to go and talk to these girls when they go to fetch water. (Laughter) MINISTER OF HEALTH : What is wrong with that?

task for parents to find the amount of R35 per child for books. I come now to the question of bursaries for children who show aptitude in school. I have a complaint in this connexion because this year the figure has decreased, whereas last year the amount was higher. This year it is only R28 000. The debate was adjourned . House Resumed

The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 8th April 1974. MONDAY, 8th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, before we come to item 3 on the order paper I wish to advise that the House has two new members from the Umzimkulu district. Could the hon. the Chief Minister please move the waiving of the rules so that they can be sworn in. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the rules of the House be so waived as to include the swearing in of the two new members from Umzimkulu in the agenda. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : I wish to advise the House that due to the death of one of the candidates in the Umzimkulu district the election in that district was postponed and that the two vacancies thus created have now been filled by Messrs. S. L. Baleni and H. Pamla. They should now come forward, each accompanied by two members of this House for swearing in. Messrs. S. L. Baleni and H. Pamla took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly.

Mr JAFTA: The consequence is that these schoolchildren are delayed outside instead of being within the school premises. I know that to instal boreholes depends on the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Roads and Works but I am just drawing the attention of the Education Department to this matter so that they should realise what that school suffers. I hope this point has been made clear. There is another point which I want the hon. Minister to clarify. I understand that some new officials are being appointed to take the place of other officials. I would like to know where these officials are. Why don't we see them being trained? I want this information because they were named . MINISTER OF HEALTH : If you know who they are what more do you want?

ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. Chief H. Z. Zulu of Butterworth is absent because of a funeral which he has to prepare for at his home and will not be present today. I move that he should be excused and given his sessional allowance. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second . Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : On Tuesday, 9th April 1974, the recess committee to consider the proposal for the Transkeian Constitution will meet at 9 a.m. in the board room. It is imperative that all members should attend this meeting .

Mr JAFTA: It is not my duty at present to mention their names. We would like the hon. Minister to reply, and also to advise whether their posts have been filled . I have nothing further to add as I just wanted to raise these few points . CHIEF NEO SIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education and I do so with all my heart. It is true, as it has been pointed out, that we should take the matter of education above party politics. It is a very important item and we feel that our children are the mothers and fathers of tomorrow. I am quite satisfied that education affairs should be handled by the parents, particularly by the mothers. We must handle these school matters in a good spirit, both the Opposition and the Government parties. That is why I feel that it is in a good spirit that we must co-operate, since we are handling the future of our children. If it happens that in a certain area the school is surrounded by people of both parties, these parties must elect as members of the school committee people who will handle affairs in a good spirit. There can be no trouble at all if the school committee members are elected in that manner. That is why I suggest that whenever we handle educational matters we should handle them with clear brains and that is why I support the hon. the Minister of Education when he says that we must take this subject of education above party politics. I am surprised, since we have all agreed that this should be taken above party politics, that the Opposition has amendments to put

NOTICE OF BILLS MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Wednesday, 10th April 1974 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the sale of agricultural products in the Transkei and for matters incidental thereto . APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I move that this House sit in committee. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Seconded, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 3, Department of Education, was resumed . Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to make a few further remarks in connexion with 154

forward. They think perhaps they are trying to encourage the Government to see what mistakes have been committed, but I do not think that is strictly true. Even so, I want to support the policy speech and, at the same time, I have a few requests to refer to the Education Department for its attenion. My first request is that seeing the rehabiliation schemes are going ahead we would like to see schools for young children in each of the rehabilitated areas where people have put up their kraals. What I mean is that these schools should be built for small children who are not able to travel for long distances. This would enable these youngsters to attend school from an early age, because they are not able to attend school when they have to walk two or three miles. By so doing we should be helping these children so that their attendance at school should not be delayed. Mr Chairman, if we open these schools for small children it will also entail the employment of more teachers. I mean particularly those female teachers who get married and have to leave off teaching. They could then be employed in those schools, because as ladies they are able to look after the youngsters very carefully. It may be a bit difficult to obtain the services of these ladies because once a woman is married she has to obtain the permission of her husband before she can take up employment. It would not be impossible to find a lady teacher within the area of that school who would be able to teach these children. If the residents of the place are keen it would not be difficult for them to find someone to teach these youngsters, even if it is not a local person. If we could establish several of these schools in these areas they could at the same time be of assistance to others who wish to attend night school, Pensioned teachers could also be used to teach in these schools. Mr Chairman, it is a pity that my time has been cut short because I have to use two interpreters. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon, members, having very attentively listened to all the comments on this policy speech and the amendment that was put forward by the hon, the Leader of the Opposition, to me there does not appear to be any new item and I wonder if I should not call upon the hon. Minister to reply now. Mr H. H. ZIBI : There is still a speaker from the Opposition. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : That will be the last one then. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as we have been going round we have observed that there is a great number of pupils, particularly in Std. 6. We would, therefore, like the number of teachers to be increased. It is a painful sight to see a teacher conducting a class of 60 pupils. Please increase the number of teachers. The parents are sending their children to school and the numbers have increased very much. Even the pensioned teachers should be made use of. We had a certain clerk at Mqanduli and he has now been transferred to Elliotdale. We in Mqanduli are suffering some difficulties because people have to travel to Elliotdale and there is no transport. No motor vehicles go from Mqanduli to Elliotdale, but it is the reverse. Motor vehicles go from Elliotdale to Mqanduli and the teachers meet this difficulty when they have to collect their cheques. I request that that clerk should be returned to Mqanduli and should remain there. People are in difficulties about this. During these rains the clerk did make an attempt to go to Mqanduli to pay the teachers there, but in the meantime the teachers had made some effort to go to Elliotdale to collect their cheques. The Mqanduli school should be extended and renovated because there are so many children attending that school.

The problem that exists at present is that the children are being taught in different church buildings, so that a teacher will go hither and thither. We ask that some relief be given in this respect. There are only two teachers and they have to take turns to walk a long distance to one church building and the other to remain in another church building. The name of that school is the Holomisa Secondary School. I would that this matter should be dealt with as soon as possible. There is another matter. Mr Chairman, that is a worry to the people of Dalindyebo region. It is in connexion with secondary schools where there is a teacher whom people wish to be transferred and you appear to take no interest, whereas in a certain region in Pondoland an application was made for the removal of a certain teacher and it was immediately attended to. (Interjections) I am talking about a certain teacher whom we wish to be transferred . (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE : This Clarkebury School belongs to Ngangelizwe. These newcomers who are professional teachers have no right to act as though they are chiefs. You should note that when people ask for the transfer of a certain unit there is some reason for doing so. I would request this department to do its work well and without discrimination. Another request we have is that when schoolchildren are touring they should be allowed to visit places like Johannesburg, Swaziland, Natal, Cape Town, and so on, so that they can see the important streets of Cape Town, such as Adderley Street, and thereby gain knowledge. When they visit Johannesburg they should see Eloff Street. (Interjections) They would be accompanied by their teachers and they would take these tours during the holidays. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon. members , I want in my replies to express my sincerest thanks to the members who have participated in this Vote and I want to assure them that I did not think the remarks they have made were in any way personal. At the same time I want to assure them that I will do my best where necessary and where possible to give full replies to their questions or to the remarks they have made in this connexion. I may say, however, without any fear of contradiction at this stage that I am mindful of the fact that indeed the hon. members must have been favourably impressed by my Vote. Let me reply straight away. At the end of the day last week, on Friday, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition sent me a note which reads as follows :- "In your reply will you please explain in some detail the new structure dealing with some of the following points . . ." And he lists these points, and I believe this is challenging to me. I have noticed several of the hon. members who are a bit confused over the new structure and I feel that details should be given. I will therefore, Mr. Chairman, take this opportunity to say a few things to elucidate the new structure so that hon. members will feel happy about it. At the same time I should like to warn them that I know in practical situations it is very easy to understand what a train is when you actually see the train, so I believe and I would warn them that when the new structure becomes operational in 1975 they must watch what is happening and they will understand better than from the explanation I am giving this morning. The new structure will consist of four phases, each of three years duration, in primary and secondary education. Now, this is how the whole thing is going to be done: Sub Std A to Std 1 will be a junior primary course of three years; Std 2 to Std 4 will be a senior primary course of three years; Std 5 to Std 7 will be a junior secondary course of three years; and Std 8 to Std 10 155

whenever we have to think of such projects. There is no gainsaying the truth that indeed this is a very good thing, provided there were an availability of funds. Also, I believe unwisely there has been a remark about the inspector of religious education when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (I believe I am correct in saying) said that at long last the Department of Education has recognized the fact that a post of this nature is necessary. But indeed , for his information and the information of other people concerned who may be thinking along those lines, the department (I am made to understand, and I believe it is correct) has previously been pressing for the said appointment. In fact, the department has made representations to the bodies concerned, e.g. the Public Service Commission and so on and, of course the Treasury. There is another important point to which I must give a reply, and that is with reference to subhead G. The complaint here is about the reduction of the bursaries. In fact, on the contary the bursaries concerned stand as they have been before. There has been no reduction. The only thing which took place was the fact that the pupils who might have benefitted from these buraries did not apply for the bursaries concerned, or the bursaries themselves did not sufficiently stimulate interest among pupils so that they should readily apply for these bursaries. To illustrate my point, Mr Chairman, supposing the Department of Education at Cicira Training School expected to have about 50 pupils applying for a course provided there and only half of the number applied. That was the position. Also, Mr Chairman, I am concerned about a remark which was made here concerning Nyanga High School when it was said that the principal of the school concerned has had his post terminated . In reality his post has been merely suspended . After all, his case is still under consideration by a court of law. Somebody also mentioned, and quite appropriately too - what about the buildings? I can assure the hon. member who was becoming apprehensive about this state of affairs that as soon as the contractors are ready to build the hostel the buildings will be repaired. By the way, this hostel, I believe, will be catering for about 480 boarders. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister in so far as Nyanga High School is concerned. Has there been a report made to this House about what actually took place in that school? Secondly, was there any inquiry made about what actually took place there? What is the present position today in connexion with that school?

will be a senior secondary course of three years hence a twelve-year structure. Hon. members must note the following: The change to the new structure will bring about the following: (1) The elimination of the present Form 1. (2) The introduction of new syllabuses for all classes from Std 5 to Std 10. (3) The abolition of the present Std 6 examination ; the introduction of a new examination at the Std 7 level, at which stage pupils who wish to leave school can obtain a schoolleaving certificate; and the abolition of the present Junior Certificate examination and the introduction in its stead for the time being of an examination to be known as the Form 3 examination. Note again, Mr Chairman and hon. members of the Assembly, the position will be that in 1973 the last Junior Certificate examination based on the present syllabuses was conducted, but from January 1974 new syllabuses will be introduced in Std 8. Again, in November 1974 the first Form 3 examination based on the new Std 8 syllabuses will be conducted and the last Std 6 examination based on the present syllabuses will be conducted . In January 1975 Form 1 classes at secondary schools will no longer be offered and Std 6 pupils promoted to Std 7 will remain at their own schools and (and this is important) the new syllabuses will be introduced in Stds 5, 6 and 7 as well as in Form 2. In November 1975 the first Std 7 external examination based on the new syllabuses will be conducted. This examination will also be written by students in Form 2. The last Matriculation or Senior Certificate examination based on the present syllabuses will be conducted in January 1976 and all students promoted from Std 7 and Form 2 proceed to the senior secondary level and, naturally, Form 2 students who have failed the Std 7 examination in 1975 and who wish to repeat will have to return to a junior secondary school . Finally, in November 1976 the first Matriculation or Senior Certificate examination based on the new syllabuses will be conducted. Mr Chairman, I hope that the present members, especially those on the other side, will be able to tell the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that I have taken pains over this weekend in studying and preparing this information regarding the new structure. Also, Mr Chairman, I think it is my task really to advise members that in order to become conversant with the new structure they must watch it in operation. Now, getting on to another matter which has been referred to by some of the hon. members here ... Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, before the hon. Minister passes on, just one question. You mentioned that .. the present Form 3 is going to be replaced by ... MINISTER OF EDUCATION : All right, you can write it down. I have a lot to reply to here. Another hon. member referred to what he called a government subsidy must be given to private schools. I think it was the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. It is quite true that this would be a very good thing to be done by my department. In fact, already my department is considering giving subsidies to private schools, e.g. Efata and Ikwezi , and the department might have done even more than that were it not for the question of the funds which I have been allocated. It will be appreciated that already this department has done something marvellous, and I believe the people of the Transkei must take this into serious consideration when already this department is giving R1 900 in subsidies for our departmental primary schools. Also, Mr Chairman, I know one of the hon. members (rightly, I must admit) felt that nursery schools must receive the consideration of our department in that these nursery schools must be established. Here again I concede, Mr Chairman, that the question of availability of funds must be considered

MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, will you just permit me to proceed? With due respect to the hon. member concerned I have jotted his queries down. Proceeding to another point which was raised during this debate when there was a complaint, and I am afraid it was a legitimate complaint, about the transfer of teachers, Mr Chairman, may I respectfully tell this House how my department is indeed greatly concerned about the transfers of teachers. My department is fully alive to the fact that transfers can have a detrimental effect on the studies of the scholars. For the information of this House, I know for a fact that my department has already evolved a scheme whereby such transfers could be cut to the barest minimum. I think that suffices so far as that is concerned. Now, passing on to another very, very important matter, and that was with reference to the K-N-N Commission report, I think, Mr Chairman, if you permit me I should take this opportunity in this House of saying, and with no uncertain terms, how deeply I appreciate the endeavours of my predecessor for her thoughtful 156

tion of these innovations. I remember it was not long ago (I suppose in the 1930s when I was still a boy) when the officials of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry were introducing the planting of maize in rows and how many of my people who at that time were uncompromisingly opposed to this new system of planting maize. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. Minister, would I be out of order if I request you to stick to all the questions put before you to enable me to report progress before 1 p.m., so that the hon. the Minister of the Interior should come at 2.15 with her policy speech? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In fact, Mr Chairman, I thought that as a teacher I suppose I would like to make some illustration of my point. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, when would you like me to stop? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : As soon as you have finished replying to the questions put before you. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Something of importance to which some of the hon. members made reference is with reference to the two officials in my department. I rather think that sometimes it may be dangerous for anybody to express an opinion when one is not sure of the facts of the situation. So far as I know, understudying is a recognized principle in the civil service and all over the world understudying is being done. There are people, for instance, who just come to a hasty conclusion that the two officials concerned have been appointed, but that is not true. Their being in the department is something which is taking place even everywhere and elsewhere. This is part of what I may even call refresher courses or in-service training. In other words, the two officials concerned are learning. I know it. In 1968 inspectors in the Department of Education had to be away for about a week or two in learning the new approach, so as far as I am concerned, Mr Chairman, it is nothing out of order for any department to undertake a course of making the officials learn. That is what is happening here. Mr Chairman, I do not want to take more of your time but I can assure this House, if I do not tire them and if the Chairman will not think I am taking the time of the House, that I am fully prepared for these answers because I know full well that nothing wrong has been done by my department. Now, to finish off, Mr Chairman, on 6th April 1974, please read the Daily Dispatch of this date where you will find a heading reading as follows: "Call for blacks in White Jobs Members of the Leboea Legislative Assembly have called on all Leboea Cabinet Ministers to Africanize their departments. This pressure on the Minister came during a heated debate in the Assembly when member after member stood up to say Blacks were ready to take up jobs now held by white seconded officials." And just before I retire I would like to say on this matter, particularly because I know the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not seem to be happy about it because he said we must forget about this Africanization, the crux of the matter is that when we talk of Africanization we mean that the time has come (and there is a proviso in the Constitution) - the time has come for loaned officials to be withdrawn. Now, I would like to make this point clear. If the hon. chief in front of me gives me a loan of R200 I must be expected to give back the money he has lent to me. Mr Chairman, I am concerned about the gross misrepresentation of the facts when it is sufficiently known and it is provided in the Constitution that loaned officials will one day be withdrawn. My department is not blundering, My department has taken into consideration the following points :

consideration in appointing the K-N-N Commission. In fact, after I had read and digested the report I felt indeed that my predecessor might have been aware of the ills and the disabilities of our educational system. I think all right-thinking citizens of the Transkei must ever be grateful to my predecessor for the production of this report. In addition, Mr Chairman, I must at the same time express my deepest appreciation to the three sons of the Transkei who have undertaken this important task of producing a report of this nature. It is no exaggeration when I say the work they have done indeed is a splendid work. Those, I believe. who will have read it will readily agree with me, Mr Chairman, when I say these three sons of the soil in the Transkei have succeeded in diagnosing the ills and the disabilities of our educational system. At this stage I would modestly ask the hon. members of this Assembly to read this report. I know you have multifarious activities during the session to see to, but I believe you must find time to read this report even when our parliament will be out of session. I am very unhappy to think that some of us have not read this report, because some of the points you raised or some of the question you put to me already and quite sufficiently have been covered by the commission if you look at their report. My reaction to the K-N-N Commission report is (and I would like to express my reaction during this Assembly and I hope the members of the commission are present here so that they can actually hear my reaction to their report) — my reaction is that we as a department are scrutinizing the contents of this report and as far as it is practicable I believe we shall endeavour at all costs to see to the implementation of some of the recommendations made in that report. Mr Chairman, I can say no more about this matter but what I have said. Somebody was asking about the effects of the Alcotester on the conduct of teachers. I can declare at this stage that although no statistics could have been taken, especially during this short period of time since this instrument has been introduced, but it is safe to think that a teacher would think twice before he drinks during working hours, especially when he knows full well that the members of the inspectorate are around and will be around at any time, even without giving any formal notices. In my opinioń a teacher would never venture to drink when he knows that there is the Alcotester being carried around by the inspectors . Really, I would doubt his mentality. Now, to put everything in a nutshell I would say that the Alcotester has been a deterrent. This will be confirmed when we have statistics in the near future, when my department will have sufficient time to produce statistics. I am passing on, Mr Chairman. I believe the question of the Std 6 examination results which have arrived late, and also the question of teachers' cheques which have been delayed, have been canvassed widely by members. May I remind hon. members of this House that the introduction of a computer is, in my opinion, an innovation of spectacular importance which will eventually bring about the transformation in our accounting system in the Transkei. Further, may I tell the hon. members of this House that we are fortunate in the Transkei to have this innovation for you don't find it anywhere in other Bantu homelands. In fact, I may go further even in other African societies, especially those which are underdeveloped, you will find this innovation is not found, or it has just been found. Like all innovations in their initial stages they are bound to baffle the operators of such innovations. For instance, this is not a new thing when the operators of these innovations may find that in one way or another they are not conversant with the manipula-

157

of Finance recommends that the amendment which has financial implications be considered by the Assembly. In presenting my first policy statement as Minister of the Interior in the Committee of Supply of the Legislative Assembly, I first of all wish to pay tribute to my able predecessor in office, the Honourable Minister of Health, Chief J. D. Moshesh. He had the privilege of being entrusted with the Interior portfolio for just about the entire life of the present Transkeian Government and he can feel justly proud of the milestones which have been reached by his former department with its many and varied ramifications, during his period of office as Minister of the Interior. Mr Chairman, I will now discuss a few aspects such as the 1973 General Election and the labour situation before dealing with the salient features of my departmental vote which provides for a record increase of R4 206 000 as compared with the figure for the previous financial year . I trust that honourable members will bear with me if I dwell somewhat at length on the electoral question in the Transkei, particularly as this is a matter which is basic to the future political development of our country. The 1973 General Election and the recent by-election in the district of Umzimkulu have shown an alarming drop in the percentage poll as compared with the 1963 and 1968 general elections as well as subsequent byelections up to 1972. The following figures speak for themselves in this respect:1963 General Eelection Average percentage poll 68,8% 1968 General Election - Average percentage poll

If this Africanization be proceeded with (and I have said it in my policy speech) my department is vigorously implementing this policy, using the guidelines that the take-over should be (1) without disruption of the service; (2) in fairness to all ; (3) as administrative difficulties arising are solved and at no inconvenience to anyone. If there are any people who think they will make my department a scapegoat so that there are people who will have an erroneous impression that my department is a department which is anti-White, I am afraid the people of the Transkei are sophisticated and they know the truth about the matter. If anybody now says we must do away with Africanization , I am afraid whoever that somebody is does not know our policy and the policy of the Republic. It is the Republic of South Africa, for instance, which is calling back the officials concerned and they do it precisely because they know it is the policy and they know that the officials concerned were loaned to the Transkeian Government and that the officials concerned did not come to stay in the Transkei. Fortunately (and I know I am expressing the sentiments of the Whites) they know perfectly well that they were here on loan and anybody who will go about distorting the truth, that will not help him. They know the true position just as anybody else does and therefore no amount of making my department a scapegoat is going to help anybody. The leaders of the Transkei are not anti-White. The leaders of the Transkei are not racists. We will stay with the Whites harmoniously, and especially if such Whites are here for the benefit of the African man so far as the taking up of services is concerned. In my department we shall not Africanize where we know that the Whites with their skill and specialized knowledge in such subjects as Maths and Science can assist us. We will never - in fact, we will negotiate with the Department of Bantu Administration that they must stay. In fact, we have done so already, but where, for goodness' sake, we have our young men with sufficient qualifications and we believe that certain departments of state can be manned by those men, surely we will insist that that should be so because it is consonant with the policy that we are following. Where else, after all, can our young matriculants get the position of being chief clerks if not in the Transkei, because in the Republic, in the so-called multi-racial society, I was in Cape Town for five years and I have seen our young matriculants rotting and working on the railways, moving coal men who were supposed to be matriculated! In other words, before I sit down, Mr Chairman, when we talk of Africanization it is because it is in response to the legitimate needs of the country and also because we are implementing the policy of the country. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the Minister has moved, and there is an amendment to this vote that the Minister's salary be reduced . I shall first put the amendment. Amendment put and negatived. The sum of R20 036 000 in respect of Vote 3 , Department of Education, was passed to stand part of the schedule. The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION

53,6% 1973 General Eelection - Average percentage poll 42,4%

1965-1972 15 By-elections with a percentage poll ranging from 55,7% to 32% 1973 Umzimkulu by-election - Percentage poll 19% The lesson to be learned from these figures cannot be shrugged off as merely a passing phase in the political development of the Transkeian people, nor can it be ignored by anyone with a feeling of responsibility towards his or her country. It behoves all of us, therefore , to take a searching look at ourselves and to pose the question as to what our own contributions have been in assisting and/or motivating our fellow citizens firstly to register as voters if they had not done so before, secondly to re-register as voters if the endorsement in their reference books still reflects the old regional authority area registration, thirdly to actively engage in the promotion of citizen participation in the smooth running of elections, and lastly to instill a feeling of national pride in those recalcitrant voters who consider a beer drink or some other social engagement as of greater import than the privilege of casting a vote for the candidate or candidates of their choice. It has become apparent, Mr Chairman, that quite a number of candidates who have contested Legislative Assembly seats in the past have suffered from the delusion that it is solely the responsibility of my department or of Magistrates to induce the voters to cast their votes on or before polling day as the case may be.

POLICY STATEMENT: MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that I intend to move an amendment to Vote 4 of the Estimates of Expenditure 1974 I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) of the rules of this House that the hon. the Minister

The fact of the matter is that it is primarily the responsibility of candidates and their agents or helpers

158

to ensure that they are known to the voters and to enlighten their supporters on aspects such as the date and hours of the poll, the situation of the nearest polling station, etc. In saying this, Mr Chairman, I pledge the full support of my department within the confines of its powers and functions, in overcoming the alarming apathy on the part of an increasing number of voters within and outside the Transkei. I sincerely trust that my plea will not fall on deaf ears and that this message will be carried to even the remotest Transkeian homestead within and outside our borders. On the labour front there was much to enthuse about during the past year. A record number of 232 000 of our workers were placed in employment outside our borders and wherever new enterprises are embarked upon, such as the recently inaugurated Sishen- Saldanha project, Transkei workers are there as an integral part of the work team to see the project through to its final completion. Substantial improvements in wage rates and conditions of service have been a notable feature during 1973 and whilst I do not consider it politic to refer to individual employers in this respect I nevertheless wish to illustrate my statement by quoting the case of the average cane cutter in the sugar industry whose earnings have increased threefold during the past few years to the present level of R87 per month inclusive of board and lodging. I hasten to add that there is still room for improvement and that some employers have shown themselves to be completely out of step with present day wage requirements, but be this as it may I wish to applaud the efforts which have been or are being made by the majority of employers to bring realism to bear on the question of the payment of a fair wage for a full day's work. Workers must however not delude themselves that the upward trend in wages can be maintained without a corresponding increase in productivity and the attainment of greater skills and increased efficiency in all spheres of employment. Let us accept this challenge in the knowledge that our labours will then command wider acceptance and a bigger reward than at present. Important strides have also been made in widening the scope of the system of deferred wages in respect of contract workers. Negotiations with I.S.C.O.R. have reached an advanced stage and the management of the Sugar Industries Labour Organisation has recently intimated that a system of deferred pay is shortly to be introduced in respect of workers employed by the various sugar estates served by their organisation . These schemes, which have the wholehearted support of the workers and the blessing of the Transkeian Government, will materially influence the future economic development of our country in that quite vast sums of money will thus become available for circulation within our borders.

and Republican officials, the disturbances were settled. My reasons for referring to this incident are twofold. Firstly to underline the futility of violence which benefits no one and secondly to reiterate what has been repeatedly said in the past, namely that our workers should guard against harming the good reputation which they have earned for themselves in all aspects of employment within the Republic. Labour unrest, whatever the cause may be, can never be countenanced by any responsible government and Transkeian workers should bear this in mind. I therefore urge them to always strive toward the maintenance of labour peace and to guard against being intimidated by those who profess to be the friends of the workers whilst actively engaged in subversive activities for nefarious purposes of their own. Before proceeding to another topic of discussion I wish to announce that it is my intention to introduce a Bill to regulate the employment and training of apprentices during the current session of the Legislative Assembly. This will no doubt be welcomed by all concerned, particularly having regard to the fact that facilities exist at present for the theoretical and practical training of apprentices at the Umtata Technical College. I trust that the Bill, once it becomes law, will provide the necessary impetus for the indenturing of an increased number of apprentices and the ultimate development of a correspondence course section at the Technical College to serve the needs of those apprentices who cannot attend classes due to the remoteness of their places of employment from existing training institutions. On the commercial front there is a growing concern regarding the poor service provided by many of the small rural businesses which have sprung up all over the Transkei, mostly in premises which do not conform to the minimum standards required by the Health Authorities. Whilst my department cannot assist in the matter of the rendition of better services by businessmen (this is an aspect which rests with the buying public), steps will be taken in future in collaboration with the

Department of Health to apply more pressure on owners of businesses who handle foodstuffs to improve their business premises or to erect new premises in order to minimise the health hazards generated by unhygienic environment. I will now briefly deal with some of the salient features of my departmental vote. The fairly substantial increase in the provision under subhead A of the Vote is due to a general expansion in the establishment to cope with a marked increase in the volume of the work and to render additional services due to the allocation of further functions to the department. Provision has also been made for the employment of Student Welfare Officers to follow a full-time degree course at the University of Fort Hare in order to provide for the augmentation of the welfare staff to serve the needs of the communities particularly in the rapidly growing urbanised centres of the Transkei. Under item 10 of Subhead E provision has been made for the subsidisation of a second sheltered employment project to cater for potentially productive cerebralpalsied and orthopaedically handicapped persons. Plans are at present being drawn up in this connection by the recently registered Ikwezi Lokusa Welfare Society who will operate in close conjunction with the Ikwezi Lokusa School for physically handicapped children. It is trusted that this project will develop along the same lines as the now well-known Efata Sheltered

I can unfortunately not proceed to another topic of discussion before making mention of the recent regrettable incidence of violence involving quite a number of our workers employed in a sector of the gold mining industry in the Orange Free State. This took the form of a clash between Xhosa workers and those of a friendly neighbouring state with quite serious consequences for all concerned. Suffice it to say that with the intervention of our government and those of the Ciskei and Lesotho working in close collaboration with the mine managements 159

Employment Project for the Deaf and the Blind and I know that I have your support in wishing the new venture every success for the future. Sub-head F again comprises the major item of expenditure under Vote 4 and I am indeed happy to announce that the major share of the substantial increased provision from R7 657 900 in 1973/74 to R10451 000 for the current financial year, have been earmarked for the payment of enhanced benefits to the aged, the blind and the disabled. The maximum pension payable to social beneficiaries will be increased from the 1st May 1974 and each of the existing 92 592 pensioners will enjoy the full increase which amounts to R15 per annum. Taking the budget as a whole you will no doubt agree that the Transkeian Government can feel justly proud of its efforts to look after the interests of the aged and handicapped citizens by earmarking over 14% of its total budget for the payment of social benefits alone.

The experiments which have been carried out in aerial survey in the district of Nqamakwe seem to be successful and serious consideration will have to be given to utilise this mode of surveying to catch up with the backlog of over 10 000 compensatory allotments at the present stage. My department is at present awaiting the final evaluation of the aerial survey experiments which were carried out with the assistance of the Survey Faculty of the University of Natal, whereafter the economics of the matter will be carefully studied before a decision can be arrived at one way or the other. I wish, however, to pleace on record my appreciation for the valued advice and assistance received from Professor Scogings and other members of the said Faculty. In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I wish to thank each and every member of my department for the dedicated manner in which they performed their duties during the past year and I trust that the Transkeian staff will not be found wanting in the process of taking over more responsible duties in the face of the accelerated withdrawal of seconded officials. In view of the belated decision to increase the salaries of teachers with effect from the 1st April, 1974, an additional amount of R69 000 will be required under Sub-head G to provide for the Government's contribution to the Pension Fund and I therefore move that Rules 141 and 142 of the Rules of the House be suspended and that Vote No. 4 be approved by this Committee as printed in the Schedule but that the total of the Vote, viz. R13 624 000 be amended to read R13 693 000 and that Sub-head G be increased to read R2 378 000 with item 1 amended to read R2 228 000. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, we sympathize with the hon. Minister in this matter of moving a reduction in her salary because in fact we have moved a reduction of a very small amount. In place of the hon. Mr Kutu I accordingly move that Vote 4, sub-head (1 ) in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R500. Anybody will realise that the reason for the small reduction is on account of the fact that the hon. Minister has only been in charge of this department for a short time. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. member say he is moving the amendment on behalf of Mr Kutu? CHIEF NDAMASE : Yes, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I don't think it is regular, because Mr Kutu is now on the Government side and you cannot move this amendment on his behalf. CHIEF NDAMASE: In that case I do move now that her salary be so reduced. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think, hon. members, you should move in your capacity as member for Ngqeleni, instead of on behalf of the hon. Mr Kutu. You must request the House in order that you may move. CHIEF NDAMASE : I humbly make the request, Mr Chairman. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as far as the speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of the Interior is concerned there are certain operations which can be appreciated . Firstly I will mention something which worries people a great deal that is, employment. Last session during the time of the previous Minister this House was promised that a committee would be established to form a link between the employer and the employee. That committee would

The vastly increased provision under Sub-head G will no doubt cause eyebrows to be raised on both sides of the House and I therefore hasten to inform honourable members of the fact that it is the intention to amend the regulations governing the retirement benefits of Transkeian Government Service personnel and teachers in order to provide for the payment of considerably enhanced benefits in keeping with present day trends. Provision will also be made for officers holding nonprescribed posts in the Government Service and for labourers employed by the Government, to participate in the pension scheme subject to their having completed at least five years' service at date of introduction of the new scheme. The following example will serve to illustrate the extent of the envisaged improvements: An officer retiring after say 30 years' service on a salary of R3 000 per annum will qualify for the award of a pension of approximately R1 500 per annum plus a gratuity (a lump sum payment) in the region of R5 500 under the new scheme as compared with only an annuity of approximately R1 000 per annum under the existing scheme. The introduction of the new scheme will not materially affect the monthly rate of contributions of existing members as the additional expenditure will be financed by increasing the existing R for R contribution by the Government to R2,25 for every R1 contributed by members of the Pension Fund. I wish to state without fear of contradiction that the new pension scheme will be second to none in the Transkei and elsewhere and that government officials and teaching personnel would be well-advised to take cognisance of this and other privileges enjoyed by them in comparing their jobs with those in say the private sector of the economy . Sight has also not been lost of the needs of civil pensioners and the increased provision under Sub-head H of the vote is mainly earmarked for the payment to them of increased allowances and bonuses to augment their pensions in these times of rising costs and generally increased living expenses. As far as Sub-head L is concerned I need only mention that the additional funds are required inter alia for the purchase of farms on behalf of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry for purposes of the settlement of people, the expansion of Phormium Tenax projects and for afforestation. Lastly, mention should be made of the increased tempo in the surveying of compensatory allotments in the surveyed districts of the Transkei (see Sub-head N). 160

gather complaints from the employees and contact the employers, and it would also convey to the employees what the employers require of their employees. We believe such a committee would lead to better understanding between the employers and the employees. However, no reference was made in the hon. Minister's policy speech to the formation of such a committee. We would like to be assured that this promise has not been forgotten. As industries have been established in the Transkei we thought we would now have a Wage Determination Board in the Transkei. The Republic has even exempted those industries which have been imported into the Transkei from these provision. We thought that the regulations from which these industrialists have been exempted by the Republican Government would be enforced in the Transkei. We feel strongly that there should be a minimum wage laid down for employees and they should be paid sufficient to give them a good living. Some districts in the Transkei complain about the distribution of requisitions for workseekers. The complaint is that they are never provided with such requisitions. There is the feeling in those districts which are not supplied with these requisitions that the workseekers there are intended only to work in the mines. I can say that Ngqeleni appears to be one of those districts. The people there are said to be very good at underground drilling operations and yet they also wish to work on the surface. The Lesotho people can also do drilling work in the mines.

matter of labour which constitutes the latitude of my experience. Also, I shall deal very briefly with electoral matters. As I have implied, I have a longstanding experience of labour matters. I must, however, qualify my statement further by intimating that the province of my experience of this matter is that of contract labour. In spite of the great and good work the Department of the Interior has done and is doing in providing employment opportunities beyond the borders of the Transkei for our workseekers, there remains still a great deal to be gone into by the Department of the Interior. The hon. the Minister of the Interior has pointed out the question of work opportunities beyond the borders of the Transkei and she quoted a business enterprise in Saldanha. Her department reflects grave consequences that would be the outcome of the abolition of the contract system. People would starve and our country would be bedevilled by employment problems. This reminds me of what was said in the Western Cape by, if I am not mistaken, the Leader of the Opposition in the Coloured Persons' Representative Council. At that time there was a protest by certain individuals of note in the Western Cape, who marched all the way from Grahamstown to Cape Town. They protested against the effects of the contract labour system on family ties and then the Leader of the Opposition in the Coloured Representative Council attacked the Transkeian Government for not joining in the campaign to persuade the Republican Government to abolish the contract system. Then a member of the Cabinet in the Transkei replied that it was senseless because the people would starve. We must remember that the contract labour system protects our labourers in the Republic and it assures us of employment ties with the firms in the Republic. Imagine what would be the status quo if the contract labour system was abolished and then our people had to go to the Republic without permit to seek work. That is why I support the policy of the Department of the Interior. Mr L. L. MUGDLWA: He is confused. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Come over here and then you can speak honestly. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order please.

Another general complaint from the workers who go out to the labour centres is that as soon as their contracts are completed they are returned home and although there may be an agreement between the employer and the employees that they should remain on at work they are still sent home to reapply so that they can return to work. Is it not possible for the Transkeian Government to consult with the Republican Government in order to empower the Bantu Affairs Commissioners to extend the period of the contracts undertaken by Transkeian citizens? I hear an hon. member whispering that if these people do not return home when will they have children. (Laughter) We would go to the extent of saying that in such cases some arrangements could be made whereby the wives could visit their husbands who are away at work. It should be realised that as far as this migratory labour is concerned our young people who go away to work develop bad characters. There is another prevailing complaint where a man goes to the mines and stays there with his family and if such person dies then his wife and children are ordered back home. Can the Transkeian Government not consult with the Republican Government in order to arrive at some settlement in so far as the influx control regulations are concerned, so that these hardships are relieved? If a husband dies away from home provision should be made for the dependants to obtain permission to remain in the labour centre because they are accustomed to the conditions there. We welcome the reference in the hon. Minister's speech to deferred pay. Another complaint is that the black traders are not allowed to become recruiters as was the case with the white traders. They want to know why, and they wish to be given this right. Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the subject of Interior is vast and, in a sense, delicate. A speaker may thus be tempted to generalize, scratching only the surface of the many problems besetting the Department of the Interior. In order to do justice to this extensive subject I shall devote my energies to the

Mr LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I would like to tell the hon. members of the Opposition that we accepted separate development, which means that the Republic is a separate state apart from us in the Transkei and it makes absolute nonsense to think that citizens of one state may go without any contracts to another country. (Interjections) As I have implied, Mr. Chairman, the signing of work contracts for our people is one part of the problem solved . The other part of the question is employment facilities and working conditions. Once those labourers have reported for duty with their employers in the Republic one of the most disheartening questions is the deportation of a labourer who is found to be suffering from TB. Sometimes the fellow has been working for the employer for a considerable length of time and then he is found to be suffering from TB. Now the employer has to send this labourer back to the Transkei. The problem arising from this is that these people are sent back here, leaving better hospital treatment in the Republic - for example, in Cape Town. In Cape Town we have big hospitals like Somerset, Groote Schuur, and I have known of some cases when a person who has been discovered to suffer from a very serious disease has been referred from Livingstone Hospital, from Frere in East London to Groote Schuur, but our people are sent back to the Transkei where there are limited (I don't mean to undermine the Department of Health) - but where 161

achieved by this department since the year 1963, if we look back over these ten years. It is appreciated that , this department has made many an increase in the benefits awarded to disabled and elderly people. I would like to ask whether or not it is possible for the Government to establish old-age homes in the Transkei for those who are physically disabled. There are such homes in the Ciskei. There are some elderly people who are unable to do anything for themselves. Once senile decay sets in these people are unable to manage their own affairs and it is a fact that an aged person, male or female, will draw his pension but by the time he gets back home he is unable to remember how much he drew. Sometimes when you want to find out how much this person received, you realise it was never even put into the purse. Those are the matters we have to contend with, that although the money is there to benefit old people they do not even get the benefit of it. Another point to which I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister is that she should be explicit about the requirements for the granting of an old-age pension. Once an individual reached the age of 80 years he should automatically be entitled to receive the old-age pension. We know there are often individuals who go and apply for a pension and although they be as much as 70 years of age yet when they present themselves before the magistrate they are not given the benefit of a pension. Another aspect which I would like to put forward to the hon. Minister is that the labourers who are employed on the mines are often the victims of pneumoconiosis. Some receive injuries and certain amounts are awarded as compensation. These people who become the victims of such unfortunate circumstances require to be paid this compensation in a lump sum. In honest fact these people should be given the amount awarded to them, instead of their being paid instalments. I am mentioning this matter, not that the hon. the Minister of the Interior is responsible for it, but I am making these recommendations so that as she knows the modus operandi she will put forward this request. Another matter we really appreciate is the fact that our labourers on the sugar estates are receiving R87 a month. I want to make this representation to the hon. the Minister of the Interior in actual fact and in practice these labourers receive only R7 in cash and with the R80 they have to provide themselves with subsistence at the labour centre. Although I know the hon. Minister is not responsible for the amount which is received by a labourer, we wish the Minister would negotiate with the sugar estates so that the full amount of the wages is paid to these people . Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, we all being honourable, in fact, I stand up to make some observations into the hon . Minister's policy speech. First and foremost, she moved a waiver of the rules and she did that. Why, if there is nothing wrong with her department, should she move a waiver of the rules? (Laughter) It means the answer to that is that something went wrong somehow. CHIEF P. JONZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I think the hon. member is out of order because what he mentions is not included in the policy speech. Mr MGUDLWA: Hon. members, it is as though the hon. member has not spoken, in fact. It is the tendency of a vulgar man to ridicule what he cannot comprehend. I have first of all to analyse . This has been gone into by a number of members - that is, the labour question. In fact, if somebody is well-travelled throughout the Republic and not within the confines of this mere Transkei, what does one have to contend with, in

there are limited hospital facilities. The poor fellow has to go to the reserves right outside the towns and he is supposed to go and report for treatment in the urban areas of the Transkei - that is, Umtata, Matatiele or Butterworth. The poor fellow, not realising his serious condition, will sometimes fail to attend these treatment centres. In view of this I would like to request the Department of the Interior to negotiate with the Republic so that when one of our labourers in the Republic has been discovered to suffer from TB, provision is made for him to remain in the urban areas and receive better treatment there. Again, Mr Chairman, there is another part of the problem bedevilling the contract labourer in the Republic. These people have got no means of communication with their employers. Even if they are dissatisfied with the conditions of employment they are forced and bound by the conditions to remain silent. In view of this also I would request the Department of the Interior to consider this question very seriously . I would also like to mention the question of the training of skilled labour. Our people work in the Republic for many years and sometimes you find they work as the boys of plumbers, carpenters and what have you. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon, members, we have a request to make of the Department of the Interior in connexion with the taxpayers who are away at work. There are certain taxes which they pay and others which they do not pay. When people are away at work the general tax is paid but at home there are taxes such as the general levy which are badly paid, although there are people who can afford to pay this tax. What I want to convey to the House is that the general tax is payable at the labour centres but when these people are away at work the general levy is not payable there because there is no arrangement with the Republican Government for the collection of a tax such as the general levy. We are looking forward to the bill which it is intended to introduce in this House in connexion with apprentices because the industrialists in the Transkei are exempted from the regulations governing apprentices. We do appreciate the intention to introduce a bill governing apprenticeship in the Transkei. We have this to say in regard to old-age pensions, that when people apply for these pensions they are required to pay something. I am not afraid to state that this payment begins at home with the trbal authorities and the headman concerned, and these old women are expected to pay this amount. An old woman goes to the magistrate's office and waits there for a lengthy time and after some time she is told that some document or other cannot be found and she must return to the office another day. As far as the payments in connexion with miners' phthisis is concerned, the beneficiary will be told that the amount is finished and yet at a later stage, for some reason or other, the money is again obtainable. We thank the hon. Minister for the payments which are being made by the department in regard to physically handicapped children. This department is responsible for the issue of official stationery, but when we apply to our local magistrate we are usually told there is no stationery. Recently I spoke to my local magistrate and was told there were no envelopes. Even the tribal authorities suffer from a lack of stationery and therefore are unable to make any progress. I think the hon. Minister is used to people coming to make requests and we are humbly asking for this stationery. I thank you, Sir. Mr B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I support the policy speech made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. It is quite true that much has been

162

a white man and a black man? And what about the attainment of greater skills and increased efficiency, in fact? If something must be done it must be positively thought of and in fact it must be seen to be done positively. There is this very thorny question about deferred wages in respect of contract labour. Isn't that from the controller of our finances, of the finances of these people who are contract workers. That is in respect of the Transkei Government - I put it at your doorstep, hon. Minister. What is the reply thereto? The debate was adjourned.

fact, in that when you have to deal with this delicate matter of the labour situation how do you see the conditions of labour under which our people are employed? It is only if and so far as you have, hon. Minister, to take tours like your predecessor. That is an onerous task, in fact, but I must put it to you. Go to Kwa Mashu, Natal Estates, or go to Tongaat and find out how many Pondos are there labouring in the sugar estates. I was there, I was a clerk in Verulam. See how those people are accommodated and see what conditions they are under in so far as the labour contracts they sign. Fortunately, they are from your own area most of them. The majority of them are from Pondoland and they work in those sugar estates at Mobeni. Go to Johannesburg and see Deep Levels or whatever the mines are in the Free State. Find out for yourself, because I have been there and I had the opportunity of staying with them in their compounds, you know. In fact, my colleague here worked as an "induna" there. (Laughter) The hon. chief worked underground. Think of the conditions of those people in the labour situation. Surely, hon. members, it is high time that, in fact, this must be done and seen to be done that our people are people treated as individual people living under the sun with shade and amenities provided forever to anyone who is a human being, because a human being is not a thing. A human being is as different from a thing as chalk is from cheese. (Laughter) Look at this (I am just going to be verbatim now on whatever comments I have to make) that is now the elections. Statistics (I have it before me now) show there is a general decline. The first general election was in 1963 and the last one was 1973. Intermittently between there were byeelections here and there, but what is the percentage poll? MINISTER OF ROADS: Who is responsible? Mr MGUDLWA: As reflected by the statistics in front of me, who is responsible therefor? (Interjections) In fact, I can put it in front of the doors of your house — that is, the Department of the Interior. Why? Why do I say that? It is because in fact your department has got the gearing of the whole machinery. Who can refute that? (Interjections) I am not concerned about confused people because you are the first-class confusionist. (Laughter) I am sorry I had to speak after two hon. members spoke who knew what they said and they did not know what principles or policies they were following. An hon. member for Matatiele and an hon. member who has just stood down from Port St. John's. Fortunately or unfortunately this side ... DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member please stick to the policy speech . Mr MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, in paragraph 5 there is an inference about magistrates to induce voters to cast their votes on or before polling day as the case may be. What is that? In so far as I am concerned a magistrate is a civil servant. I do not know if he is not a civil servant and as such he must induce. He should not. What about this alarming apathy on the part of a number of voters within and outside the Transkei? That is the number of voters according to the statistics given. Paragraph 7, I hasten to add that there is still room for improvement. I would like the hon. Minister in fact to put this House on a decided gauge as to what improvements are envisaged thereto, in that firstly, if you envisage any improvement it means that you are thinking about doing better to improve what you have done. What remains of the past working in the present to shape the future. In this same paragraph there is mention about a fair wage. What is the definition of a fair wage, in that the wage gap is so different between

House Resumed

The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 9th April 1974. TUESDAY, 9TH APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. bour. person entitled to his wages? I am asking that ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, certain members of the Dalindyebo regional authority will be absent on Thursday attending a committee meeting. These are the hon. Chiefs A. B. Dalindyebo, J. Dumalisile and S. Mgudlwa. I would that these hon. members be allowed to be absent and that they be paid their sessional allowances. Mr K. M. GUZANA: I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Another announcement, Mr Chairman, is that the hon. member for Libode, Chief Tutor Ndamase, has also left for East London to see his father. I move that he be paid his sessional allowance Mr GUZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. NOTICE OF MOTION CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. member for Engcobo, Mr L. L. Mgudlwa, was suspended on 28th March 1974 from the service of this Assembly for a period of ten days. In terms of rule 49(a) of this Assembly's rules of procedure a member who is suspended shall forthwith withdraw from the precincts of the Assembly. On 3rd April 1974 the hon. member entered the Assembly and took his seat. Sir, that was during the committee stage of the Appropriation Bill. In that way he disregarded the authority of the Chair, which he will find in rule 47(a). He disregarded, abused and failed to observe the rules of this Assembly (rule 47(d)). Because the hon. member was then still under suspension immediate disciplinary action could not be taken against him. His conduct warranted such action and I recommend, Mr Chairman, that you name the hon. member in terms of rule 48(1) of the rules of procedure. The matter, Sir, is referred to you and not to the House. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I would like to be educated on this point. What action was taken on 3rd April 1974 when this member came into the House? If no action was taken, why not? CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, my information is that this hon. member was ordered by the Chairman to leave the Chamber, but because he was still under suspension and not supposed to be in this House no action could be taken by the Chairman. No disciplinary measures were taken against him and I feel we cannot leave this matter lying there, because this House has 163

got to be an example not only to the Transkei and South Africa, but to the world at large. If, Mr Chairman, the Chairman names the hon. member when I move a motion for his punishment I will speak at large about his conduct. CHAIRMAN: Is anybody, apart from the person in question, able to make any comments? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I don't think there is any more to be said except what has already been said. All I want to add is to support the fact that all the Chairman could do on that occasion when the hon. member came into the House while under suspension was to order the hon. member to leave the House. Anybody who is under suspension and has been told to leave the House ceases for that period to be part of the House, and nothing can be done to him. All that can be done to him is when he resumes his position in the House and that is what is being done now. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, as it has been indicated to this House I, in accordance with rule 48 of the rules of this House, name the hon. member, Mr L. L. Mgudlwa, and that he be suspended from the sessions of the Assembly for a period of five days. CHIEF MINISTER: No, Mr Chairman. I am still going to make a plea in that regard. SUSPENSION OF MEMBER CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, when members are elected in their constituencies they are shouldered with a big responsibility to come and represent their constituencies in a dignified manner. Since this hon. member entered this Chamber he has been a nuisance to the dignity of this House. He has been assaulted on two occasions. That was the result of his conduct. No people want to use violence, particularly the members of this Assembly. From the very moment this hon. member entered this Chamber yesterday he started making the same insinuations he has made in the past. We are powerless and we cannot do anything to him because there is nothing that says we can even call upon the State President to cancel his membership and we would appeal to the Chair to watch this hon. member. What we want is dignity and respect for other members. Many of the hon. members in this House are far older than this hon. member, but he is so bold to use most abonimable language that any educated man can tolerate . I move that the rules of this House be waived to allow for the imposition of a greater penalty than that prescribed by the rules on this hon. member and that he should be suspended from the service of this Assembly for a period of ten sitting days with effect from today. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : I order accordingly that the hon. member, L. L. Mgudlwa, should leave the House for a period of ten sitting days as from today. QUESTIONS

(e) Is an effective dipping chemical used against ticks? (f) Are Regional Authorities obtaining an effective dipping chemical?” REPLY: "(a) All the coastal districts with the exception of Ngqeleni, Mqanduli and Elliotdale have been dipping as regularly as possible during the last 6 months. The three districts mentioned above have not dipped at all for the last 3 months because the Regional Authorities in question have neglected to purchase dipping material. (b) With the exception of the 3 districts mentioned in (a) above, all the coastal areas have dipped in accordance with the dipping programme. The heavy rains experienced since January however have seriously disrupted the dipping programme. This has been due to flooding of the dipping tanks and the resultant dilution of the dipwash, as well as the inadvisability of dipping cattle during heavy downpours. (c) The dipping intervals for all the coastal districts are as follows: 1st December ― 31st May : Weekly. 1st June 30th November : Monthly. (d) It is correct that stock losses from Red Water Fever are higher this year than during a similar period last year. It is also important to stress that 42,6% of all deaths due to Red Water in the coastal districts during the period January - March 1974 have occurred in the 3 districts mentioned in (a) above. (e) Yes. (f) An effective material is available to all Regional Authorities at government contract prices. As stated in (a) above, certain Regional Authorities have neglected to purchase this dipping material and must therefore carry full responsibility for stock losses due to tick-borne diseases in their areas." Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, arising out of the reply by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and in view of the fact that the three districts of Ngqeleni, Mqanduli and Elliotdale have not had chemical dipping materials bought by their respective regional authorities, and in view of the fact that the losses account for 42,6% in respect of stock which is really the banking account of these people, I want to know whether or not the Department of Agriculture has not got an overriding authority where there has been negligence, in order to protect the stock of the people, to buy the chemicals required and debit the respective regional authorities in order to save the stock from dying, regard being had to the fact that the department has ultimate responsibility for the preservation of our stock. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this is a very unfortunate matter because the regional authorities have the sole responsibility of providing the dipping materials, and as far as the department is concerned it is very difficult for the department to take any action while the regional authorities hold the money and do not provide the chemicals for dipping. Moreover, Mr Chairman, nobody was aware that this sort of thing would happen and therefore no provision was made. It is a matter which will be considered for the future.

QUESTION NO. 7: Mr K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) When last did the coastal districts of the Transkei dip cattle? (b) How often have they been dipping over the last 6 months? (c) What are the dipping intervals in respect of each coastal district? (d) Is it correct that heavy losses of cattle have been borne by stock owners along the coastal districts as a result of Red Water Fever?

Mr GUZANA: Weren't the stock inspectors submitting returns?

164

give them some more. (Laughter) Now, I have not heard what other representatives are saying, because the hon. member who has just gone out has criticized the grant which has been made to these old people, but we are pleased with the steady rise. Where I think I will be supported most by certain members is that homes should be established for these old people. I am not saying, as somebody said, that they want these homes. No, we don't want that in Qaukeni and the old people have said, hon Minister, that if you take them away from their homes and families they would rather you take that grant away from them. (Laughter) That is what they have said, and I support them because I see nothing wrong with their getting these grants and we assist them, because they are our grandmas and aunts and mothers. So we don't want these to be taken away. Now, there has been mention by the hon. Minister about the disturbances which occurred in the Free State. Honestly, we are most pleased and we appreciate the efforts made by the three Governments concerned ― the Lesotho Government, Ciskeian Government and the Transkeian Government; and I want to go further than the hon. Minister has done and make an appeal to members .... DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. members , the hon. chief from Tsomo has a habit of being the leader of a conversation in that corner and I have observed your activities and I hope you will please behave like a chief. Thank you. Mr DIKO: Mr Chairman, it is most unfortunate that when our sons go to the mines there are certain elements in the country who use them as a means of subversive propaganda. Tribal disagreements are always a thing of the day with the African people and those tribal differences could never be stimulated to an extent of the violence which has taken place in those mines. According to our custom we fight and we crack skulls and we wash each other, so I wish every chief and every member in this House to go out and educate these young people that the days we are looking forward to of independence is to be united and to help each other and never to do anything wrong to each other. These fights which have resulted on the mines are also in the locations at times, so we must assist the Government concerned in educating the young people that those days are bygone and they are gone forever and we must move together now as a race, respecting every individual. There is no Tembu now, there is no Pondo, there is no Sotho - we are all citizens of the Transkei. If it will please the hon. member for Ngqeleni, we are all responsible citizens of South Africa. Now I go on to an important factor which has been raised by the hon. the Minister and, unfortunately, the hon. member who has been sent out criticized it severely at the doors of the hon. Minister. That is the voting percentages since 1963. I honestly believe that the department is doing all it can do and it has done it, and certain officials like the Information Officers have done their best to stimulate interest in the voting. The magistrates have done it. The only people to blame are the parties. Now, ever since the inception of this self-government the parties concerned, and there are only two main parties here, have done nothing to educate the voters that they must associate themselves with a certain party and take an interest in the voting. I will challenge the leaders if they deny it. (Laughter) Now this is the eleventh year and there are no committees in the districts - committees which are preaching to and educating the people about the policies for which they stand. We can never be politically right

QUESTION No. 8: Mr H. H. ZIBI asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"What agreement was reached between the Ciskeian Government and that of the Transkei in respect of the irrigation water drawn from the Lubisi Dam into certain areas of the Glen Grey district? If none, why so?" REPLY: "No agreement was entered into between the Ciskeian and Transkeian Governments in respect of the supply of irrigation water from the Lubisi Dam. The Lubisi dam is situated on the border of the Transkei and Ciskei and thus floods land of both homelands. The same applies to the Lanti weir, and a section of the main canal from the weir is wholly in the Ciskei. The construction of works was started and paid for from Trust funds. In effect the project is thus not entirely a Transkeian project. The dam and main canal were designed to supply water both to Qamata and to a portion of ground in the Ciskei and Lanti and also in Mbinzana. A tariff has been approved by the Transkei Treasury for the sale of water from Government Works for irrigation or other purposes. Due to the fact that the Transkei controls and maintains the Lubisi Dam and appurtenant works, water supplied to the Ciskei at the two points provided when the canal was constructed, is sold at the approved tariff." APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House converts itself into committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second . Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was resumed. Mr C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the Department of the Interior is one of the departments which has pleased the people of the Transkei, so even those who wanted to criticize had very little to criticize in the Department of the Interior. I stand up, therefore, to associate myself with the remarks which have been made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior and I am very sorry to say that most of my comments will be on the remarks made by the hon. member for Engcobo who has just been sent out and I am sorry to speak in his absence. Now, he says to prove that the hon. the Minister of the Interior has done nothing much for the people she has moved the waiving of the rules. That was an irresponsible criticism. The hon. Minister has moved the waiving of these rules in order to increase certain amounts in the vote which will cater for the people. So whoever has the interests of the people at heart should have been thankful for that waiving of the rules and for the inclusion of the amount which has been included. Now, I will dwell most on three points and I will just mention one in passing, and I am sure the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland will suport me. People do not seem to realise that ever since 1953 the contribution made to the old-age pensions was very meagre. Now there has been a constant steady rise and where I am from - that is, Eastern Pondoland people have voiced their appreciation for all these increases which have been coming and they have asked me, as representative of Eastern Pondoland, to say: Thank you, please give us some more. And please do

165

unless the parties educate the members and organize committees I am sure in Qumbu there are no committees as it is in Tabankulu there are no committees, so as a result there are no funds for the party. Every party should go round and educate people about the importance of a vote. Every candidate must be supported by his party to such an extent that he goes to every indivdual voter. So most of us, like myself, are not in this Legislative Assembly because the people have voted because they belong to a certain party. People have voted for those people and said they have been sent here because they know these people have done a lot of work for them as individuals, not as a party. That is why I said at some time that this party system must be stopped. It does not exist in this House and it is no use outside organizing people. So when we organize parties after independence we shall know what these people must do. These people who are party leaders must organize and not give a lot of work to the Department of the Interior and expect everything to be done by the Information Department . They are the teachers - not to educate people in the importance of a vote. I challenge them now, if they can show me their books, how much have they got in their funds? I have got no time for these lazy people who say they do so much and then do nothing. So I want to emphasize to the hon. the Minister of the Interior that while she is doing all she can with the support of the Cabinet Ministers to instil a sense of duty into the voters of the Transkei they must not forget to incorporate and invite the party leaders to take action. I want to see these voting figures as they were in 1963. We had a high percentage in 1963 and there is no reason why we should have such a low poll in 1973 if they have no confidence in the Government in power. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up after this hon. member who seems to have lost wings so that he may fly. Mr C. DIKO: That is personal. CHIEF MAJEKE : I will not enter into the question of parties, but he has stated among other things that we are all citizens. It is true that we are citizens of South Africa, as he has stated, but in regard to employment we black people are not recognized as citizens of South Africa. We are treated according to the policy which is being carried out by the Republican can Government . This is what happens : The Republic allows people who want work to go into the Republic under contract in accordance with the terms laid down by the Republic, which contract only favours the employer and does nothing beneficial so far as the employees are concerned. It is just that question which causes us to complain. The whole of the Transkei complains about this system. It is the desire of this House, and not only this House but the whole of the Transkei, that our workseekers should not be recruited as though they are a collection of slaves to go and work in the Republic. Although the hon. Ministers boasts of the number of workseekers who have gone out to work in the Republic (as she has stated, the number is 232 000) yet the number of people who have not been recruited is legion. I can say with certainty that the number of people who have not obtained work in the Republic is three or four times the number she has quoted. Because of that system the Transkeian workseekers sit at home, unable to obtain work. The Government should find ways and means so that our people can be free to go and find work on their own in our country, South Africa, and when they are

offered employment it should depend entirely on the conditions offered whether the workseeker will accept that employment or not. I shall leave that item and deal now with the elections. The number of voters has decreased a great deal, as has already been revealed. This is due to the fact that people have been threatened by their headmen in this respect, that if they do not vote for a particular candidate they will suffer certain consequences. I have personal knowledge of this matter because I have also done some canvassing, and when this canvassing is being done out in the location the people usually state they will not go to the polls for fear of certain particular chiefs or headmen. Even in regard to the reasons commonly given in this House about the decrease in the number of DP members, we know well that that is not so. These people fear the chiefs because of certain threats, namely that they will be deprived of their rights as well as of their arable allotments (Interjections) and so they are not prepared to go to the polling stations. As an indication of the fear that exists on the ruling side, this is what they do. They transfer teachers at random . They will take experienced teachers and transfer them and put in their places inexperienced teachers. When elections took place at the polling station these people who had gone there to vote were given information through certain documents that certain individuals could not attend because it was stated that they were non-voters. They were not registered as voters. They were new people and they were told that because of that they were not permitted to cast their votes. When I discovered this I went to see the magistrate and those people were leaving the polling station when the magistrate brought in the register and found these people were all registered with the exception of one. This is what happened at only one polling station. If you consider all the other stations, how many people were prevented from voting because the same system was followed? As far as the payment of old-age pensions and other benefits is concerned, we in this House desire that the existing means test should be done away with. This was a decision of this House. It would appear that these hon. Ministers are forgetful. This commits people to telling a lot of lies, because when they go to take this means test they will say they have no stock whatsoever, when in reality it has been registered in the name of their daughters. Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members, for the first time I stand up now, not as a member of the Opposition who usually opposed everything in this House, but as a member of the governing side. I have heard what has been said about the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior and it has been well praised. I am going to make this request of the hon. Minister, that she should put right certain matters in the administrative areas which require to be put right by the Minister. The request I am going to make is this: I heard from the old people that they have been given an increase in their pensions, but this is what worries me. I found out that certain old people have to report before they are paid their benefits at the office in order that they should be actually seen. What usually happens is that they are taken on sledges to those centres and I would ask that some provisions be made for the transport of those old people. No-one amongst the African people has ever seen anyone of a different colour being put on a sledge in order that he may be seen. (Laughter) Imagine a sledge being used to carry a person who is suffering perhaps from TB, with all the dust that is raised. We ask that that

166

system be abolished. This is what should be done. If a person is so old that he is unable to walk, the Government should use its vehicles to go to the home of the aged person in order to see that person. I would be pleased if the hon. Minister would note that. Another matter is that difficulty is experienced by these people who take contracts. When the people get to the town they are told to go away, and some people lose the days in which they should be doing their work. If you will investigate, this is what you will find. The question largely depends on bribery. I would suggest that as there are 26 towns in the Transkei those officers should be transferred annually so that when they reach pensionable age they shall have worked for a period of 26 years. (Laughter) After the officer who is responsible for these recruits and these contracts is transferred every year he will be afraid to demand bribes in a strange office. (Laughter) As far as our custom allows, if we black people want to get anything out of a person we start praising that particular individual, but if a person wants to get something from another and he says : You must pay me ― that is unacceptable. I make that request, Mr. Chairman, and I believe all the people in the Transkei will accept my request, because if these officers are kept on the move for 26 years that officer will have gone right through the whole of the Transkei, or ultimately they will find themselves under lock and key. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, this is another request we wish to place before the hon. Minister. If you take your car and go through all these administrative areas you will find a great number of old women and very old men and people who are sickly who are not receiving any awards whatsover. When you are such an old person, why have you not yet received any pension? The reply you will get is that the subheadman does not take him to the headman. If that is not so you will find that the headman has said that all the documents necessary for the application are finished. The person who is not given his rights will only complain against two people the headman and the chief, but you will find that the fault lies with only one of these two . Would you not give the right to these old people to go and make personal application to the magistrate at the office, so that the magistrate can realise that these people in truth are very old, because it happens in these cases that these old people who apply for the old-age pension have no money with which to bribe these officers ? I do hope the hon. Minister will take note of this because this is an obstruction and an obstacle to the people in the administrative locations when they put in their applications. I heard one old woman say that the reason they are suffering in this manner is because the person who is never seen is the Minister who stays in Umtata. (Laughter) It is for this reason that I convey this message from the people who sent me to this House. Mr G. N. SIPUNZI : Mr Chairman and hon. members , I do not think I will take much of your time because the speaker who has just sat down has absolutely used most of my words. In fact, that is what I expected of him . I will devote a few minutes of your time, Mr Chairman, on this question of old-age pensions, Honestly, this is a matter to be approached in a most sympathetic manner. To me this is one of the controversial issues in this department. At any rate, I shall refrain from canvassing the matter as to how these people should be paid -that is, either monthly or bi-monthly - because I understand there is a motion to that effect. Mr Chairman, I will most respectfully appeal to the hon. the Minister of the Interior to review her policy as regards people who qualify for this payment because there are many people who are in dire need, though I

am not disregarding the word “old”, but for instance you find a young woman of about 40 who has eight children, she loses her husband and she has absolutely no-one to support her. Can such cases not be considered in a sympathetic manner by this department? Another point is that we experience considerable delay before these people know whether their applications have been approved by the Government. In fact, they are not even told if they have been refused, so in turn you find these old people flocking into tribal authority offices demanding to know what has happened to their applications, and this causes embarrassment. Something has really surprised me in the debate on this old-age pension business I learn that the magistrate has been instructed by this department to review the number of old people enjoying this pension. On that score, Mr Chairman, it would appear then that the number of these people will sooner or later be decreased. In fact, that is the fear which people are nursing, because they do not know where they stand. Let me come to this contract labour system. It is really an eyesore when one looks at these so-called contract labourers being bundled into lorries, one on top of another. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, this leaves one with a very sad picture. It is high time that this department viewed this evil practice in a very serious light. In fact, Mr Chairman, it must be stopped immediately. What is more, Mr Chairman, it is common cause that these, our people, are so taken to the Republic as farmworkers with promises of adequate payment for their services and better working conditions. Once they get there and start working they are told a different story altogether from what they were told before taking up their contracts. In other words , Mr Chairman, it appears that the employers themselves start dishonouring their contracts, and to my mind those are the people who should be arrested and prosecuted. But instead of this step being taken against the employers you will find that the labourers are arrested for leaving those particular farms as they rightly feel they cannot work under such unhealthy conditions and low salaries. When in some other circumstances the labourer feels that he wishes to take up a contract lasting, for instance, for twelve months, it so happens that this stipulated time expires and the job is still there. The said labourer is sent back home only to be recalled again. Cannot something be done by way of sending the documents back to the labourer's respective town for renewal, instead of this waste of time and money in going up and down? Some of us are of the opinion that if this contract labour system were abolished it would mean hardship and untold suffering for our people, whereas in actual fact they are suffering now because of this contract labour system. Why can a man not be free to sell his energy in any labour market and be free to leave that particular job any time he likes to take up a better job? Mr Chairman, I do not feel I should take much of your time because I can observe that the hon. the Minister of the Interior just feels like running out of this Assembly. (Laughter) CHIEF M. J. SIGCAU. Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to make a few remarks in regard to the policy speech of the hon. Minister. The Department of the Interior is a great help in the government because it is doing exactly what used to be a function of the chiefs formerly, namely to assist the people. If this department did not exist many old people would have died. If this department was not in existence the heirs would not be looking after their mothers. We should be thankful for the little that we get, no matter how small. Someone mentioned old ladies being carried on sledges . It is not for the department to go and pay these bene-

167

fits at the private residences of the beneficiaries. They must go to the pay centres. The person who must receive this benefit must hire a mode of transport to the pay centre. What happens sometimes is that people delay at beer gatherings and get to the pay centres when it is too late. When they arrive late the police thrash these people with shamboks to line them up because they have arrived late at the pay centre, and some of these people are paid short, even to the amount of R1 an individual.

trouble in regard to these shops, but it also affects the people who obtain stores through the XDC because it affects their repayments. For the same reason you will find that the stock in these stores owned by the XDC is degenerating. Passing on to welfare officers, we have only a few of these officers and it is necessary that their number be increased. In the rehabilitated areas there is need for these welfare officers to educate people in regard to various matters. People should be taught to desist from the old customs which are out of date and adopt more modern methods as far as health is concerned. People should be encouraged to put up proper toilets . The hon. Minister spoke of the Ikwezi and Efata sheltered employment schemes and we would that you should consult with the Department of Education in order to increase the number of people admissible to Efata because we meet with difficulties when applications are made for the admission of extra children to this school. The Transkei is very large and there are a great number of deaf and dumb as well as blind children. When I speak of the wide area of the Transkei I am concentrating on this small school which is provided for this type of handicapped child. We beseech the hon. Minister because from experience we know there are many children who have not been able to gain admittance to that school. The debate was adjourned.

Once it is sundown the police instruct these people to go and receive their pay at the magistrate's office. One person applied for a benefit and he was told that the money had not arrived. We would ask that the distances between pay centres should be not more than five miles. Some stations are ten miles apart. The practise of forcing these boys to go to the sugar estates must be stopped. A person who takes a contract in Cape Town comes back financially better off. The contracts that send people to Cape Town do a lot to civilize people. Even the ragged people come back gentlemen. I cannot account for the diminishing number of voters since 1963. We have no anxiety as far as the TNIP is concerned because their numbers are increasing gradually. The leader of the DP must preach from Umzimkulu right to the Kei and must give up his profession. These two cannot go together. (Laughter) Even the hon. the Chief Minister has left his paramountcy to someone else and is staying in Umtata. If you are wearing a garment and you leave it for some time, when you put it on again you find it does not fit you. The DP must accept the situation with equanimity. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak on this policy speech by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. She stated that her department is the department which takes the greatest care for the needs of the people. I wish to touch upon the decrease in the number of voters who go to the polls in the Transkei. The hon. Minister said this is a dire situation and various speakers have given reasons for this decrease. The hon. member for Tabankulu mentioned things of which we are quite aware and which are of great importance, and the hon. member for Qumbu, Chief S. S. Majeke, gave some reasons relevant to this decrease. I have my own explanation for this state of affairs. Firstly, when I ask people to register as voters they tell me that as soon as they have registered and they go to the Republic to work, the application is refused. Many a time have they told me they have been instructed to go back to Matanzima. This is another reason: When we members of this House who are candidates want to hold meetings with the citizens we meet difficulties because we are told to obtain a permit. In cases where there is a dance or a youth meeting you cannot collect these people and hold a meeting because you have not obtained a permit. This question of registering is of great importance so that these peple are registered as voters . We plead with the hon. Minister to pay attention to this matter so that it is made easier for people to convene meetings. The matter of permits should be dealt with and some alternative found. The hon. Minister mentioned the number of small shops which have sprung up in the administrative areas, and stated that these shops are in a very poor state. Much improvement is needed in regard to the matter of hygiene where these small shops are concerned. I know of one shop where foodstuffs are sold in the same room that is used as a bedroom. This definitely requires the attentin of the department. In fact, previously we drew her attention to the creation of these mushrooms shops and pointed out that this would bring a great deal of trouble to the people of the Transkei. This does not only bring

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was resumed. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up in appreciation of the policy tabled yesterday by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. The policy really needed no comments as it was really elevated, but at the same time may I point out one point which seems very thorny with all the hon. members in the Assembly - that is, influx control. One of the hon. members of the Assembly did put it that the wives of the men who are working in the labour centres should go and stay with them. I really wonder if these people will not in the end stay in those areas, and I would like also to know who will be looking after the homes and the stock whilst the wives are away. Yes, we must agree that the period is too short for those people to work, save and travel home and be able to maintain the family. That is why we appreciate the building of these new industries within the borders where these young men will be able to work and at the same time be able to see their families at the end of each month. We also appreciate the Department of the Interior for making it possible for our young men who have passed the matric standard to be absorbed in the offices before they become frustrated. The second point I would like to mention is that some fifty years ago there was nothing like old-age pensions. We thank the Government for this undertaking. Hon. members of the Assembly, because we appreciate all this we would also at this stage request the hon. the Minister of the Interior that, if it is possible, all the payments to these people should be made in monthly instalments. I know that this will cause a lot of necessary work to the department. I would like also to comment on the new pension schemes- something that was unknown to the Africans of yester years. All those people who have not been able to read the policy speech I would like to refer to page 17 of this speech. I have not known where, after retirement, a man is given a gratuity of R1 000. Mr K. M. GUZANA: The gratuity is R5 500. Mr DEKEDA: Lastly, a word must be said about the drop in the percentage of voting. The hon. mem-

168

bers of the House will be urged to see to the registration of voters, which should be comparable with the numbers of the others in any one district in the Transkei. In some places it has been discovered that this registration for voters has been curbed because there is a lot of corruption, ignorance and indifference in some locations. Before I sit down I would like to say we enjoy seeing old people doing some light work to earn a living. (Interjections) Here, hon. members, I am referring to the relief fund. These people are also taught to look after the dongas and the footpaths round their homes, and at the same time they do earn a living. Now I want to mention something which does not appear in the policy speech something which has been going on for years in the Transkei. Many organizations have sent to the department some delegations and I want to speak about the aid to the people of the Transkei which has not been extended by the department. There has been a cry about our young men who are employed in industry, and a great number cross the borders to teach in the Republic. Well, there may be a reason for that and that is why we want to ask the hon. Minister for consideration in this. You probably know that all the teachers in the Republic are pensioned at the age of 65 and they get an extension up to 70 years. I know a number of men in the Republic who are 68 and one is now actually 71 , and they are still teaching. We are being criticized over this because our pensionable age is still 60 years for men, with the ladies at 55 years. That is why we ask the hon. Minister to consider this situation so that we may be on the same level as the Republic in so far as this pensionable age is concerned . Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have no reason to believe that it would be in the interests of our children at school to keep teachers going till the age of 70 when senile decay has set in. We have enough trouble from that sort of decay in this House, let alone in the classroom. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I just want to mention one or two things in connexion with this department. It has been brought to my notice that quite a number of recruits who go up on contract labour get to the places of employment and are farmed out to other employers who have not enered into a contract with these recruits. There is therefore no channel of redress of grievances between the contracted labourer and the non-contracting employer who has been benefitted by the contractor who has supplied him with men to work under him. This idea of having shared labourers is a very, very sad development which has attached to this system of recruitment. The second point I want to raise is in connexion with unemployment cards whose validity extends over three months after the termination of employment. If a person loses his employment after four or five years and does not present his unemployment card within three months after cessation of employment, that person loses all his rights to payment whilst he is unemployed. In view of the fact that the recruited labourers are uneducated, can anything be done to bring to their notice their rights which are limited in so far as this three months period after termination of employment is concerned? Then I want to make reference to what are called "callin" cards. Usually the quota for an industrialist is sent to head office and the industrialist who had 75 good labourers has sent them home at the end of their contract with their call-in cards, and this card usually specifies that so-and-so must report for duty by suchand-such a date. The complaint is that the quota is not dispatched immediately to the respective districts to enable these people who have call-in cards to report for duty timeously within the period specified on their call-

in cards. I would request that quotas be distributed as expeditiously as possible to the various districts so that those who hold call-in cards are not faulted by lateness not of their own making. Then again, whilst the Department of the Interior may justly be grateful to the Department of Justice for the agency work that its officials carry out on behalf of this department, I do feel that in the various magistracies of the Transkei - that is, in the various offices - the Department of the Interior must have its own civil servants directly responsible to it. A clerk who is employed by the Department of Justice has some work to do and if he has to consider matters relating to social benefits, this becomes a secondary part of his responsibilities. The trouble is that people come in in respect of social benefits, are not attended to, go back home to come in again and go back home because the clerk thinks that this work for the Department of the Interior can wait, much to the sorrow, misery and degradation of the person concerned. Then I would like to know from the hon. the Minister of the Interior what happens to the interest earned by moneys invested under the system of deferred pay. The fact of the matter is that the interest is due to the person who has had his salary invested or held back, but the interest never goes to the man who has had his pay deferred. If you take into account the fact that thousands of labourers are taking advantage of this system of deferred pay, then millions of rand must be held back and earning thousands of rand in interest. Do we have any say, or does this Government receive any grants, or are there any sporting activities or are clinics assisted out of this accumulated interest of which the investor, let me say, is robbed, literally robbed? There has been a gravelike silence over the matter of symbols being used for purpose of voting. We had an undertaking by your predecessor that this would be a matter that would be brought before this House by way of a bill during this session. Most of us have the memory of an elephant and we have remembered this thing and we are asking that a statement be made on this matter. May I crave your indulgence just to deal with one point, Mr Chairman, which is very important. Everybody is shedding tears over the decreasing number of people who go to the ballot box. Various reasons have been given for this decline of interest and decline in participation. I think relevant reasons have been given for this decline, yet there is probably something right in the middle of this whole situation. The people have become disenchanted with this whole exercise which does not bring results. With an Assembly of 65 nominated and 45 elected members they feel that here we have a situation which cannot be changed through the ballot box. However much they may be dissatisfied with the representation that the chiefs give them in this House they can do nothing about it, and this exercise of casting the vote seems to be purposeless . The result is that people keep away from the ballot box; people say that it serves no purpose and this is killing that interest in the affairs of the Transkei, which interest ought to be developed. What chance have they of seeing a change of government even if all the elected members were to support a party in opposition? None whatsoever. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And if all the chiefs support the Opposition? Mr GUZANA: If all the chiefs support the Opposition a miracle shall have occurred (Laughter) for the man who pays the piper calls the tune, and the man who is the Chief Minister calls the tune in respect of the chiefs whom he pays. Therefore I think there is need to attend to the constitution of the Transkei and the

169

what his neighbours have put up by way of buildings. One hon. member criticized this department in regard to the labourers who work in the sugar estates. This particular member said he was a clerk at Verulam. He criticized the accommodation and other things, but even there I do not think the blame can be laid at the door of the Department of the Interior. Coming back to the social beneficiaries, it is clear that the numbers are increasing gradually, and also the moneys paid out are increasing. We very much appreciate that, especially because the more money the people have the more prosperous will we be. The hon. the Minister of the Interior also mentioned schools which were to be established in order to cater for disabled children. I would really commend such a step. Although we appreciate the increase in these moneys which have been paid out to the aged, nevertheless we have to make this request. Although a person might be receiving money for old age or disability a stock-card is demanded from the person to find out what stock is possessed, and then inquiries are made to find out what money is earned by the sons and daughters . We are lost as to what the aim of the payment is, therefore ― whether it is to establish the condition of poverty or otherwise of these people. We would ask that this be obviated . Otherwise I entirely support the policy speech of the hon. Minister. One hon. member from the Opposition benches requested that, depending upon circumstances, a person even at the age of 40 should qualify for assistance. I would submit that because it is difficult even for people who have reached the age of 60 years to get money it will be far more difficult for a person of 40 to qualify for this grant. That person has sufficient opportunities to find a living. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to comment on a few points raised by the hon. the Minister of the Interior in her speech. I was pleased that the hon. members, by way of interjection, were able to impress it upon the hon. the Minister of the Interior that the low percentage poll in Umzimkulu was due to the weather conditions . . . Mr H. PAMLA: That is true. Mr MADIKIZELA : . . . and not just to the incidence of beerdrinks and other social engagements. (Laughter) I think tthe people of Umzimkulu deserve commendation from the hon. the Minister of the Interior and the department for being as daring on that day as to brave the elements. I had expected the percentage poll to be even lower than that in Umzimkulu . It is not just the apathy of the candidates that is responsible for the low percentage poll on election days, nor is it the lethargy of the party organizers. The department must also take the blame. Some of the presiding officers, some of the polling officers show marvellous inefficiency in their work. They are slow in the performance of their duties ; they give the impression that the work has not been impressed upon them by the electoral officers. I have known of situations where the voters at a polling station have been called upon to move to the next polling station where voting was brisker. Now, that is taxing to the voter of the Transkei. They therefore show lack of interst. I wish the hon. Minister would give us reasons why she thought, or perhaps the department thought, that it would be better to employ women as polling officers during the last general election, or perhaps this is a reflection on the performance of the men during the last general elections. I observe that the department prides itself on its performance in being able to place as many as 232 000 workers from the Transkei in employment outside the Transkei. This indeed is an imposing figure, but this is migratory labour at its worst. 232 000 people are away from the Transkei, from their homes and their

constitution of this Assembly in order to give an incentive promising hope to the electorate. It is a sad commentary on the idea that independence should be granted to the Transkei when you get just about 19% of the voters in Umzimkulu signifying their preference only 19%. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It was lucky they did in that weather and in that terrain. Mr GUZANA: Come wind, come weather, life must go on. (Interjections) MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Come rain. He has never been to the locations in Umzimkulu. Mr GUZANA: All these matters, all these figures seem to belittle or even to countermand any suggestion that the people of the Transkei have expressed themselves one way or the other on the question of independence. (Interjections) Then one last point ― your department, Madam Minster . . . CHIEP P. JOZANA : There is no madam here. Mr GUZANA: I am not surprised that he says there is no madam here because he does not know what it is to address a lady by the term "madam". His only address to his wife is "Hey, Nojongile!” (Laughter) Your department is responsible for the citizenship of the Transkei and it is your department which decides whether or not a person can acquire citizenship. I have had quite a number of people who have indicated a desire to take up citizenship in the Transkei but they do not know what procedure to follow. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Why don't you reply to them? Mr GUZANA: May I ask the hon. Minister to spell out the procedure where a man, for instance, is living in an urban area and seeks to take up citizenship in the Transkei. And since you are responsible for determining who shall be a citizen of the Transkei, may I ask you to act very quickly and expeditiously in regard to what you think should be the citizenship of the Transkei. I am getting worried over the fact that the constitutional indigestion resulting from the discussion on independence may make the Transkei lose some of the Whites who are in the Transkei. It is no use waiting until 1976 when you are going to have the general election before you say the Whites will be welcome in the Transkei, because by then they shall have left or have prepared to leave. The responsibility is on your shoulders. Mr D. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech and I wish to make a few remarks on the matters raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . He mentioned that the employers who take recruits from the Transkei hand over these recruits to other employers. As this any responsibility Government has no in activity beyond the borders of the Transkei the blame cannot be laid at its door. I now come to the point raised in regard to voting. It would appear that the blame is laid at the door of the Department of the Interior for the depletion in the numbers of voters, yet the position is that it is not the department which goes round to the people. It is the candidates who have to go round, thus faults cannot be attributed to the department. We must bear the blame. One hon. member from the Opposition side mentioned the short period for which these contracts are signed and he expressed the wish that this period should be extended . During the extended time the labourer will be developing the country beyond our borders with the money that he is earning there, whereas if the time is short this man will bring the money back to the Transkei to buy items such as furniture, and he must be able to compare with

170

Minister of the Interior. I do not think there is much that the hon. Minister could say because she is still new to this department. If there are any discrepancies or anything wrong, that would be the responsibility of the previous Minister. I am going to address this House generally and not specifically. I have a few requests and observations to make and I also hope that her salary will not be reduced. There is some dissatisfaction regarding the pensioners. Sometimes we are told that the payment card of a certain individual cannot be traced and you don't know the reason because this person has been getting her pension all the time. She is then told to go to the doctor for examination . Sometimes there is great hardship on the pensioners when the money does not come owing to the cards being misplaced . It is usually discovered that these cards have been in the office for a long time and the carelessness of the clerks is the reason. They do this because they want something from the people.

families for varying periods of time. When is the Transkei going to create work opportunities for its people within the Transkei? CHIEF MINISTER : Is the Transkei a machine? Mr MADIKIZELA: When is this Government going to absorb all the labour force that this country is capable of producing. CHIEF MINISTER : What other country has done this in Southern Africa? You have all the countries that were High Commission Territories in Southern Africa ― have they absorbed all their labour force? Mr MADIKIZELA: All right, Lesotho is said to be a poor country, the Transkei is said to be a rich country ; Botswana is said to be a poor country, the Transkei is said to be a rich country. When is the Department of the Interior going to come to us and say so many less thousands of people have been sent out of the Transkei because those people have been able to find employment within the Transkei ? Mention was also made of improvements in wages paid to the citizens of the Transkei. In this regard the sugar estates were mentioned, but surely there is no sugar industry in the Transkei? I ask how much is Spilkin paying the employees who are within his factory. How much is Sparg paying his employees? How much are the domestic servants employed in the Transkei earning? What is this improvement in wages of which the hon. Minister speaks in respect of the Transkei ? I admit the Transkei Government has come forward with endeavours to put up the salaries of its own employees. I wish the hon. the Minister of the Interior had thrown a little more light on the important strides that have been made in regard to this system of deferred pay. In this regard she made mention of ISCOR and the sugar estates, but I have thought that the matter of deferred pay was a matter resting squarely on the shoulders of the Government of the Transkei. I did not think it was necessary for this Government to delegate this power to some other body. It is the business of the Transkei Government to enact legislation for the system of deferred pay. It is the business of the Transkei Government to acquaint those bodies that employ the citizens of the Transkei with the provisions of the legislation for deferred pay. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We will do so when we have a Department of labour. Mr MADIKIZELA: I have he assurance from the hon, the Minister of Justice that when they have a Department of Labour they will do so. The existing labourers will be dead by then. However, I have this to say: The mining industry in particular is very busy of its own accord trying to effect improvements in their conditions of work but they are working under a handicap because they have no legal backing from the Transkei. I do not know if Malawi waited for their Department of Labour until starting on this deferred pay system. Botswana is working very well under this system. Sir, I would like to know why it takes so long for applications which have been approved by the magistrate and have been forwarded to the department before the department is able to pay out the grants to the pensioners. It has been known that it can take as much as twelve months before the poor man gets his first payment. Remember, it has cost the poor people something to persuade the headman to take them forward. It has taken him some time before he could persuade the headman to take him before the tribal authority and the clerks. Is it going to take so long now merely because these people cannot get to head office to apply the grease? CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the

The magistrates think that the the qualification for an old-age pension is the white hair on the head, but there are some people who become prematurely grey and others do not get this pension because they have livestock, yet sometimes it is found that these cattle do not belong to him. Even if that stock belongs to him he cannot wait until they are all finished before applying for a pension. We have other difficulties as our schoolgoing children are recruited by the recruiters to go to work and we as chiefs have a great responsibility to attend to this affair. The magistrates take no notice when we go to complain to them. They cannot understand the intentions of these people. We are grateful to the hon. Minister that the disturbances on the gold mines have come to an end. In my place there were some people who came down from the Free State in order to get away from the disturbances there. I am not aware of whether they have gone back again. I am not sure whether it is the intention of this department to establish factories wherein they could produce woollen goods, etc. We have waterbuck which we sent to Paddock in Natal. I wonder why we cannot start an industry here in that connexion? We send our hides to the Republic and if we had our own factory here we could manufacture our own saddles and bridles. We have a lot of bones here which could be converted into some useful commodity. There are lot of bluegums from which paper could be manufactured. Why can we not establish basket factories in the Transkei and get the people busy with their hands and heads? Why can we not start a pottery business in the Transkei for beer pots ? We have cottonfields in Qamata why can we not start a cotton mill ? We could start in a small way only until the demand increases. We also want tombstones and we could have monumental masons here. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I think most of the points have been thoroughly canvassed and the speaker who is going to stand up now will be the last. The hon. Minister will then reply. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish particularly to comment on the alleged settlement of the Orange Free State disturbances. I am unhappy about the said settlement because to my mind it was strategically planned . The very fact that it started from a company to a company and then to another company shows it was the work of some master-mind behind the whole scheme. This took place in the Free State and the subversive activities obtaining in the Maluti region are from the Free State and arise from the Free State.

171

this welfare work must go on in the districts. There are also grants for corporations and I would be happy if the hon. Minister would tell us what happens to those moneys, in effect. I am quite aware of the fact that at times a clerk who was trying to help a deserving case is taken to task by the magistrate that there are more deserving cases, so why waste the Government's money by giving money to these not so deserving cases? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I noted with interest that hon. members of this House, especially today, seemed to contribute something substantial to the debate. There were many points which were raised but one of the things I noticed again was that almost all the people who stood up to speak referred to the labour situation. I am sorry that those who spoke on this particular matter did so at length, judging from the various people who raised the matter, because nevertheless I will dismiss it in one or two sentences. Nobody in the Transkei likes the situation as it now obtains, that is a fact. We all aim at having a day when things will be different. However, I do not think it is wise of hon. members to say we must do away with the contract system of labour when we have no alternative. It would be an irresponsible action on our part and the tendency would be to leave our people worse off than before.

It is the same subversive activity which makes me doubt whether this thing has been settled once and for all. It is the spirit from the Free State combined with certain elements from the Transvaal that made our jobs very difficult when we were organizing for the last elections. The result was that tribal relatitons in the region were terribly strained. The hon. the Chief Minister did go to the area to try to have this thing settled once and for all, but there were indications in his presence that it was not a settlement. That is why I feel I have got to relate what took place in the Free State gold mines to that which is indeed still taking place in the Maluti region. My submission is that the hon. the Minister of the Interior should be assisted in seeing to it that relations are improved, because it will be difficult even for the elected members to make their report-back to some of the areas in the region. When we were canvassing the no-confidence motion I did say that those people felt justified in adopting the attitude they did a a result of the policy of this Government, but I did not say they were right because the policy I support does not divide tribe from tribe. I am trying to say that something has got to be done to put things right. Lastly, I wish to comment on the social welfare service of this department. There are nine social welfare officers in the Transkei. One would have expected that it would be a welfare officer per region, but as usual there is none in the Maluti region. There was a Mr. Ndamase, followed by a young girl from Tsolo, and when she did go to Durban I am aware of none who has succeeded her. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Why did she go away? Mr ZIBI: I would be happy to know why it is necessary for two welfare officers to be kept in one region when another region does not have a single one. Now, we look at the salaries of these social welfare officers. My information is that even if one does go to Fort Hare and does it at degree level and comes back, the scale is the same as that of one who matriculates and goes for a diploma. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are you sure of your facts? Mr ZIBI: Yes. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What salary do they get? Mr ZIBI: These welfare officers are given the same scale as grade 1 clerks in the same department. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman, I want to know what that gentleman said about a young lady in the Maluti region who went away to Durban. Why did she go away? (Laughter) Mr ZIBI: My reply is that I have learned to keep the eleventh commandment of bearing fools gladly. Would you say that it is fair that a clerk in the fifth year who is promoted to the grade of a first grade clerk should immediately go on to the same scale as those people who have gone to Fort Hare? As these people were originally employed according to districts, take a region that has three districts. It means this officer has to work in one district for a month. He goes to the second and third districts one after the other so that the first district worked on has had no welfare officer for two months. It therefore works out that for six months a year a district in a region that has three districts does not have a welfare officer at all. I appreciate the difficulty of the department because they have not sufficient welfare officers. We are merely pointing out these things so that the department may soon see to it and send to Fort Hare and other places to obtain sufficient officers , because

Mention was made by the very first speaker on this vote in connection with committees which were promised last year. I had to confirm that by looking through the Hansard and I noted that when my predecessor replied he said the matter would be gone into. Hon. members must know that when we send our people to go and work in the Republic we cannot dictate the terms to the employers. However, that does not mean that we cannot discuss some of the complaints and grievances of the people with them. The department plays an important role in that connection - that is, in connection with whatever complaints are brought to this House by the members and those brought by certain individuals to the department. I can assure hon. members that some firms have such committees, for they know that they are essential not only for better understanding but for the fact that if people work well then the results in the form of production will be better. Recently I had a chance to converse with one of the people in charge of workers in the sugar estates and I could see that such a committee was really paying dividends. Coming to this question of the Wage Determination Board at the moment there is no such board in the Transkei but I can assure members that the matter will be gone into because in the Transkei of late there are quite a number of industries cropping up, and thus there is a need for such a board. Following some of the discussions made last year, some request has been made to Pretoria to look into certain complaints. However, hon. members will only get to know the reply when the department itself does get a reply. Mr K. M. GUZANA: That is never-never. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : The other point raised was that somebody said the African businessmen are not allowed to recruit labourers. Somehow I am sorry to say there is no truth in such statement. Perhaps the hon. member is confusing issues with people who are managers for the XDC shops. It is the XDC which does not want its managers to be so involved. Various hon. members referred in different ways to bribery, which seems to be the order of the day in the Transkei

172

both in connection with applications for old-age pensions and applications for work. From the experience I have had as an elected member for the constituency of Lusikisiki I advised the people in my constituency at one stage that should such an incident occur they should report the matter immediately, either to a policeman on the spot or through the chief to the magistrate. I remember very well that one of the officers in charge of paying out pensions got into trouble because one of the people reported such a matter. On the other hand, the people themselves must learn that it is high time they stopped trying to buy what should be done for them and thinking of it as buying a favour. I remember an occasion when I saw one of the people seeking work actually holding a reference book with a R5 note just peeping so that the officer could see there is something there. As I had been invited by some people who were complaining about that sort of thing, that person made the mistake of passing the reference book towards me and I decided to take that person straight to the magisrate. 1 think that that has somehow acted as a deterrent. Mention was made of people who are recruited to certain jobs or who take a certain contract, only to find that when they reach their places of employment the wage is lower than they had expected. I think instead of deserting from their jobs the best thing would be for those people to again report the matter to the local Bantu Affairs Commissioner or, if they work on the railways, to whoever is in charge. Our people should learn that it always pays to report anything which is untoward and that nobody will victimise them for having made such a report. The other thing was in connection with the farming out of labourers. Unfortunately that has not been reported to the department and we are hearing of it for the very first time here. Like he other things I have mentioned, the people should report to the authorities. I could even go further to say if they are at work there is nothing to stop them from writing to the department and explaining their predicament. Coming to the question of citizenship, we are guided as a department at the moment by our Constitution. Various references have been made by various speakers of people they would welcome as citizens of the Transkei. Unfortunately the department cannot go beyond the requirements for citizenship as set out in section 7 of the Transkei Constitution Act until there is a change in the Constitution. Mr GUZANA : May I ask if a Ciskeian citzen wishes to be a Transkeian citizen, what procedure will he follow? MINISTER OF INTERIOR The same as appears in section 7 of the Constitution.

this scheme in full force. A question was asked as to what happens to the interest. It is paid to the homeland government for welfare purposes and the people therefore benefit indirectly in the development of the Transkei. A statement was made connected with my remark in connexion with some of the businesses in the Transkei. I am aware that hon. members once remarked on the number of licences which were being granted to Transkeian citizens and they said they were being granted indiscriminately. What I have noticed within the few months I have been in Interior is this : When the department tries to be strict over the granting of licences, taking consideration of the number of businesses in existence in that area in relation to the population of that area, then we find some of you hon. members (because at times you overdo your work) coming up with letters from the magistrate where the applicant was told that the business had been turned down, wishing the Minister to change the decision and grant a license to a person in an area where there are more than a sufficient number of shops. The argument always raised is that the person has already built the shop. I do not want to sound harsh, but I think it is stupid of anyone, not having been given the green light by the department, to build that shop. Reference was made by one of the hon. members to the effect that some of the old-age pensioners suffer hardship when expected to be brought to the pay centres on sledges. I think hon. members all understand that a person who is incapacitated can be paid through a person holding a power of attorney, but if a check is not made, say once a year, to find out if that person is still alive the department and the people of the Transkei can find themselves in a state where people holding these powers of attorneys go to collect the money with the beneficiary long deceased. Coming to the complaints about the delays in pensions, I think when it comes to the matter of applications for pensions, as was mentioned by the hon. member for Mqanduli, and also such matters as labour, I also feel it is high time that the people responsible for that are made directly responsible to the Department of the Interior. Personally I have found it difficult where you see something going on in your department and then because people are acting on an agency basis you have to go through yet another department and by the time you have to solve that person's problem it is too late because the person has left for Cape Town perhaps. Mention was made of the fact that we only have nine welfare officers in the Transkei. I think the very fact that the department has some of them undergoing study at Fort Hare is aiming at increasing the number of such, and also ensuring that all regions in the Transkei will have those officers. Comments were made about the elections, and those have been noted. I do not know anything about this promised bill in connexion with the use of symbols but I will check on that. I move, Mr Chairman, after having given such reply that my vote be accepted. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. The Minister of the Interior that Vote 4 should stand part of the schedule. To this motion an amendment has been moved that Vote 4 be reduced by R500. I put the amendment. Amendment put and negatived. The sum of R13 693 000 in respect of Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was passed to stand part of the schedule. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, before the hon. Minister moves that I report progress I wish to give this very important warning and I want to appeal

Mr GUZANA: If he is employed in the Ciskei and wishes to be a citizen here? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Where is the home of that person? Mr GUZANA: His home is in the Ciskei and he is employed there but he wants to be a citizen and he cannot leave his job for five years to become eligible for citizenship in the Transkei. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : As I said, I do not think the department can follow any other procedure than that set out in the Constitution, unless hon. members want us to effect a change in the Constitution. Coming to the deferred pay system. I made it clear in my speech that the sugar industry people have just started this system and that discussions are still going on with ISCOR. It is the people at the gold mines who have 173

APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

to all hon. members to bear with me, or to bear with my senior, the Chairman. We adjourned at 3.45 p.m. and we resumed our committee session at 4. 15 p.m. There are members who came back after the tea adjournment at 4.35, which means they have been out for fifty minutes. I think, hon. members , we are being very unfair. Thirty minutes is enough for tea-break but when people come back almost an hour after the tea-break it is unfair to the business of the House. For a good portion of the time when the hon. Minister was replying these benches were empty and this type of behaviour must come to an end. House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 10th April 174.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, I move that the House resolve itself into committee. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee POLICY SPEECH MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY Mr Chairman and Honourable Members :When the Honourable the Chief Minister allocated the Department of Agriculture and Forestry to me I felt deeply honoured but at the same time deeply aware of the tremendous responsibility that was transferred upon my shoulders. The responsibilty emanates from the extremely important role of agriculture in the economy of every couuntry and the lives of its people. The economy of an independent Transkei, which is our goal, will for many years depend heavily on agriculture and forestry. Hence, if agriculture does not develop at a fast accelerating rate, the total economic structure of the Transkei will be in peril of either stagnation or complete collapse. The situation is, in my opinion, so serious that I can state with conviction that the battle for the economic viability of the Transkei will be fought mainly on the land in the rural areas instead of in the industrial areas of a few Transkeian towns.

WEDNESDAY, 10TH APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read an confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have been approached by the hon. member for Engcobo, Chief Dalasile, who has requested that his name should be withdrawn from the recess committee on constitutional matters and he wishes that another member be substituted for him. I propose, Sir, that this House appoints the hon. Mr G. G. Kutu of Engcobo in place of Chief Dalasile. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I find a letter on my desk apparently written to me on 5th April 1974 concerning the health of the hon. Chief D. Mditshwa. The letter says : "As you know, the above-mentioned member had an attack of epistases . He needed urgent treatment last night and is no longer bleeding but I feel that a good rest would do him much good . I will be grateful to you if you could excuse him from your sessions today and next week.” It is signed “Dr. W. M. Mngqibisa". I propose that this hon, member be excused . MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to.

That being so there is an urgent need for a major change in our existing, largely traditional, way of life especially as far as the farming system is concerned. Note, Mr Chairman, that I refer to a major change and not a revolution. I am convinced that it is possible for us to adapt our present system to bring about a tremendous increase in agricultural output without creating chaos in the rural areas. This change will of course be a gradual process requiring at least two things for its success . The first requirement is money. You will notice, Mr Chairman, that I am asking for a net increase of R1 181 000 for the next financial year. This increase will be explained in more detail later. Money is, however, not an end in itself but only a means to an end, a tool to be used by man to improve his standard of living. In order to effect the necessary changes and to utilise the available funds the second important requirement is that the correct climate for change should be created at all levels of authority and right down to members of communities. Although I am not trying to establish myself as a reformist, Mr Chairman, because I know only too well what these reforms entail, one must be realistic about the future of our nation and our country. In fact, agricultural reform is exercising the minds of the governments of all developing countries. Hence one cannot disregard the necessity for change in the Transkei. By developing the rural areas or, let me rather say, by helping the rural people to develop themselves, we will set in motion a reaction that will follow the natural course of peaceful change that we all want. By neglecting the rural areas and concentrating on the development of towns, we drain the rural areas of able-bodied and trained men who are so urgently required for rural development. Rural development schemes can, however, only succeed where it has been preceded by careful planning on a regional and national basis . It is an important prerequisite for the successful implementation of such plans that all lower authorities and also the people themselves play an active and positive part in all stages of planning. Furthermore, it is essential that the Government of the country provides in a planned way

TABLING OF REPORTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table copies of replies to :(a) Motion No. 28 as adopted at the 1972 session ; and (b) Motion No. 8 as adopted at the 1973 session of of this Assembly. MARKETING BILL : FIRST READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, I now table a message in terms of rule 128(b) that the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by this Assembly. Mr Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and at the same time I wish to apologise for not having the Xhosa version yet as the translators are busy. I now move that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I propose that the bill be read a second time on Monday, 22nd April, or so soon thereafter. 174

sufficient funds and manpower and possesses sufficient authority to implement the plans according to a planned programme of action. The present system of rehabilitation planning is the first important step to bring about rural development. I am grateful to report, Mr Chairman, that almost 60% of the Transkei has been planned. There is however still a long way to go to achieve the 100% mark. It is, however, my firm belief that before we achieve the 100% mark we shall have to introduce the second, more advanced stage of planning in the already planned areas. The world has now reached a point, Mr Chairman, where increased agricultural production has become an absolute necessity. The arrival at this point was hastened by two opposing factors which have, strangely enough, a common effect-namely, a threat to lower the standard of living of man. On the one hand we have an ever faster-growing world population with high socio-economic expectations - everybody expects more and/or better food, clothing, housing, education, health, freedom, facilities et cetera. On the other hand we find that the natural resources which have been used and abused for so long are dwindling fast. We are therefore faced with this dilemma : we must produce much more to satisfy the demands of the growing masses from greatly depleted resources at our disposal. How can we meet this challenge? Only if we make “efficiency" and "co-operation" our watch words. Agricultural business rests upon four cornerstones the so-called production factors - viz. land, labour, capital and management. Each of these factors is available in varying amounts. In the Transkei we have the land - we are blessed with fertile soil. We have an abundance of labour; in fact, it is our major export product! What we lack is capital and management. Both these factors are scarce throughout the world . Therefore, what is available of them should be used to maximum advantage. Furthermore, these production factors can only be used to best advantage when they are used on a certain minimum scale. For example, even if sufficient labour, capital and management are available, the farm may be too small to utilise these scarce factors to best advantage. The situation in the Transkei can generally be summarised by saying that the individual farming units are too small and that management is totally lacking. Consequently, it would be throwing good money after bad to provide capital to too many untrained managers (farmers) farming on too small units. The position is, in my opinion, not hopeless. I believe that our salvation lies in group farming. These groups of farmers can organise themselves into either co-operatives or corporations. Nobody enjoying agricultural rights needs to forfeit such rights but, by combining the small units and thus enlarging the size of the business and making it worthwhile to invest capital and to find a trained manager, the yield and thus the income of farmers can be vastly increased. By appointing a trained manager individual farmers are relieved of decision-making while the separation of management from ownership, which is essential for increased production under the present system of land tenure, is also achieved. The farmers who, by combining their individual units, become shareholders in the co-operative, will also have two sources of income, viz as shareholders they will receive a share of the net profits proportionate to their contribution in terms of land and, secondly, they can also earn a wage as an employee on the project. The increased size of the business will also result in the creation of more jobs of a greater variety and will afford Transkeian citizens the op-

portunity to be trained as managers who can take over such established projects or start new ones elsewhere. Furthermore, by producing more of those products within the Transkei which must at the moment be imported from outside the Transkei , money will remain within the Transkei and thus stimulate the internal economy. By increasing the income of all those people who are now enjoying agricultural rights the standard of living of a large percentage of the rural communities will be increased, instead of that of a few individuals only, thus achieveing another very important aim, viz ,that of income distribution amongst a large section of the population. Our planned areas lend themselves admirably to the introduction of this system . I consider it the prime objective of my Department to achieve increased agricultural production through improved agricultural techniques and agricultural land use systems . This can, however, be achieved only if my Department enjoys the full support of this House as well as that of all the local authorities and farmers themselves. I am further convinced, Mr Chairman, that such a new approach to agricultural development will revitalise the extension staff of my Department. Although subhead A shows a total decrease of R218 900 this year compared to last year, the reduction is due to decreases under items 7 and 8. Under item 1 I ask for R98 750 more this year in order to provide for increased salaries due to normal increments and promotions. It is however a commonly held fallacy that the loyalty and productivity of workers can be "bought" by increased salaries and wages. Research has shown beyond doubt that the so-called "job enrichment" acts as a much stronger incentive for higher productivity and a healthier and more satisfied staff than salary adjustments alone . By "job enrichment" I mean making the work interesting and more challenging, thus stimulating every officer or employee to give his best. I am afraid that our agricultural staff has fallen into a groove from which it is very difficult, if not impossible, to break away. They have been forced, through circumstances to follow a stagnant policy over the last thirty years or more to perform basically the same work with, I regret to say, only a relatively small degree of success. They are, alas, criticised and damned by many in authority as well as by the very people they are trying to assist as being lazy and disinterested in their work. I admire those officers who have retained their enthusiasm for their work although many of them may not know exactly what their true goal is . I think the time has come for a new dynamic approach to agricultural development which will provide a new interest to our officers and which will enable them to realise themselves in their work. The new approach of group farming can also serve this purpose. The expansion of Departmental activities and rising costs have necessitated the increases asked for under sub-heads B, C, D and E. Mechanization has become very popular in the homelands mainly because it is labour-saving. I cannot say with any certainty that it has contributed much towards increased agricultural production. It has most certainly increased the cost structure and, in the absence of increased yields, decreased the profitability of farming. These losses are mostly hidden but they are there. In the light of the fuel crisis this matter of mechanisation requires further closer attention. In general one can state, however, that because of the fuel shortage, the high costs of mechanisation, the scarcity of competent service facilities, and the smallness of farming units, mechanisation should be limited to the absolute minimum 175

while the efficiency of the available machines must be increased to the maximum. Once again, it is universally accepted that land units should be enlarged into viable farms in order to mechanise efficiently and economically and thus to raise production. You will notice, Mr Chairman and hon. members, that under sub-head F, item 1 I ask for an amount of R935 800, which is R609 400 more than the previous year, for the purchase of new machinery and equipment. Of the total R141 000 is intended for agriculture, R302 500 for forestry and R492 300 for engineering services. The amount estimated for engineering services could be justified by the fact that the Department has to provide a certain amount of infra-structure and facilities and protect the soil. The amount estimated for forestry is much higher than usual this year because of the take-over of road construction duties from the Department of Roads and Works and, furthermore, it could be regarded as income-generating to a certain extent. The amount of R141 000 for agriculture is to be used at departmental projects and for the rendering of departmental services . From a cost and efficiency point of view my Department is becoming concerned at the rapidly growing responsibilities it has to assume on behalf of the farmer, especially those on irrigation schemes, without the agricultural production at these schemes showing any marked increases. Again, unless the system is adapted to permit efficient mechanisation, it is a waste of taxpayers' money to extend these irrigation schemes. With the Ncora Scheme in the process of development, the time has now come to take serious stock of future mechanical assistance rendered by the Government to farmers on dryland as well as irrigation schemes . Departmental assistance should be limited to such schemes where the farming system promises success and only for such a period as to allow farmers to organise themselves into independent groups. The accent should, to an increasing extent, be put on selfhelp schemes and less and less on government sponsored projects. This is especially the case since the Xhosa Development Corporation has been established to undertake the development of projects. The government must assume its rightful role as the body responsible for long-term planning, supervision, control and financial assistance through subsidies, tax concessions, price determination, etc. The increased provision under sub-head G is mainly for the purchase of additional film units to improve the efficiency of agricultural extension services. It is also my privilege, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, to report with gratitude the donation by an Oil Company of a closed-circuit television set to the value of R10 000 for training and extension purposes. I am deeply grateful for this wonderful gift because it is not only a token of goodwill and tangible assistance but it is also of great value to my Department in our endeavour to uplift the rural communities. Equipment such as that mentioned, film units and others, are valuable aids but it is important to remember that no machine can completely replace the human being. Our extension service will therefore continue to rely on the Extension Officers. A lot of unflattering things have been said about our Extension Officers. I wish to stand up for them however because, as I have said before 9 they may have fallen into a groove, but should we not take the blame for that? If you leave your plough or spade or any of your tools outside it will become rusty and it will slowly wear away. The same happens to Extension Officers who should also be regarded as mere tools in the hands of the Govern-

ment and the Community in order to reach a goal. Leave these officers outside your work and deliberations, ignore them and you will find that they too will become rusty and lose their keen edge. However, put them to use, make them do the work they have been trained for and you will find that they become extremely useful, bright, keen tools. Under sub-head H I am asking for R226 000 more this year than last year. Item 1 is reduced by R15 000 due to less Departmental livestock being required. The increases under items 2, 4, 5 and 7 are due to wage increases. The decrease under item 6 is due to an apparent over-estimation last year. Item 3, however, warrants comment. The amount estimated under item 3 for the purchase of sires for resale has been decreased by R6 500. The Livestock Improvement Scheme has been in operation for the last 15 years or so and considerable numbers of bulls and rams have been made available to farmers. During 1972/73, for instance, 305 bulls and 430 rams to the value of R43 000 were sold to farmers for a total amount of R16 500, the balance of R26 900 having been defrayed from the Transkeian Animal Husbandry Improvement Account. As the balance in this account was rapidly depleted my predecessor approved a maximum subsidy of 50 per cent of the average purchase price of bulls and rams. In effect it means that a farmer must now pay R55 for a bull which the Department had purchased for R110 and R17,50 for a ram which the Department had purchased for R35. The actual cost to the Department is, however, considerably higher than the original purchase price. It was further decided that the subsidy, as from 1st April 1973, would be paid from approved funds. From time to time doubt was expressed as to the efficacy of this scheme and the possibility of abuse of this scheme was mentioned last year by my predecessor. It would seem that, after all these years and all the Departmental funds that have been expended, the improvement in quality of the Transkeian livestock, especially amongst cattle, is negligible. Furthermore, due to the sharp rise in the price of cattle, especially breeding cattle, the purchase price of sires will be considerably higher than last year which will mean an increase in the subsidy as well as an increase in the price paid by the farmer. In view of the disappointing effect of the scheme in practice and the increasing financial commitments it brings about for the Department, the time has now come to review this scheme. Here again, I am of the opinion that the farmers should introduce a system of self-help. While dealing with Agricultural Planning and Development under sub-head H, I wish to refer to the reference made by the Hon. the Deputy Minister for Bantu Development in his opening address to the necessity for long-term planning for socio-economic development which includes land-use planning. Due to the fact that the homelands have made relatively little progress in planning, these territories are now actually in a fortunate position since they can now adopt the modern planning techniques in order to achieve a higher standard of regional and national planning that that which is possible in developed countries. This is an aspect that I consider of utmost importance. Somebody put it like this: "The essence of planning is the intent to improve conditions through development". This means that planning must precede development. Much has been said about development but, except for the basic agricultural planning and the planning of

176

is, unfortunately, clearly illustrated this year by the large number of stock losses. I regret to say, Mr. Chairman, that the dipping of cattle for the efficient control of ticks does not receive the required attention. With a few exceptions, Regional Authorities are not pulling their weight as far as the provision of dipping material and the maintenance of tanks are concerned. Furthermore the Transkeian stock owner has for too long accepted severe annual stock losses as inevitable, and as an Act of God, so to speak. That should not be the case. Our country cannot afford these losses. It is high time that our farmers wake up to the reality of an economically competitive world where unnecessary wastages of this nature and this extent cannot lead the country to prosperity. The timber industry in the Transkei has developed into one of the most important industries in the Transkei judged by its income and employment- generating ability. What is more, these employment opportunities are scattered across the Transkei thereby bringing money into circulation where it is most needed, viz. the rural areas. As at the end of March 1973 the Forestry Branch alone had created 5030 jobs. During the past year no fewer than six long-term contracts for the disposal of sawlogs and pulpwood have been concluded. These will provide an estimated annual revenue of R1,1 million and create 2000 additional jobs. Five sawmills are to be erected on an agency basis through the XDC, viz. at Singisi (Umzimkulu district), Qumbu, Lusikisiki, Baziya and Cofimvaba. The development at Singisi promises to be a particularly exciting one. A sawmilling and woodprocessing industry will be established, necessitating the relocation of the railway station, the construction of about 35 km of road, the development on a properly planned basis of accommodation for about 500 families and the provision of school and clinic facilities. While my Department has always had to contend with a labour shortage in most of our plantations, I hope and trust that our labour force will grab this opportunity where permanent employment is created virtually on their doorsteps. In order to protect, expand and properly manage this extremely valuable national asset I ask for an increase of R534 600 under sub-head L. The increases under items 1 to 4 are mainly due to wage increases. Mention was briefly made under sub-head F of the take-over of the construction and maintenance of forest roads. In order to make up the tremendous backlog in this regard and due to the fact that the contractors require suitable roads for forest exploitation, this was necessary. The large increase under item 5 is due to this take-over. My Department is confident that progress will accelerate appreciably by this take-over. The increases under items 1-3 of sub-head M are also mainly due to increased wages. This division of the Forestry Branch, consisting of the Umtata planing mill with which is associated the four logmills viz. at Amanzamyama, Nqadu, Langeni and Engcobo and the preservation installations, has always been managed, and the financial results expressed, as a unit. Thus far, it has always showed a profit. It is however, disturbing to note that during the past year there has been a drop in the production of the logmills which, coupled with increased wages and salaries, has lowered the profitability of this unit. This clearly and dramatically confirms the economic principle that increased wages and salaries must be accompanied by a corresponding increase in productivity of staff if economic progress is to be made. Since this is, for a number of reasons, extremely difficult to achieve on a State project, I am of the opinion that

industrial growth points on a very limited scale, too little has been done about planning. Agricultural planning is however only one facet of planning which must be itegrated with full socio-economic planning on a regional and national basis. Mr. Chairman, there is still so much to be done in the Transkei and so little time left. In future it will increasingly become a race against time. It makes one wonder whether we have any time to waste on lengthy discussions of the policy of separate development with the accent on the word "separate". Has the time not come to place the accent on "development" which will require all our energy and co-operation for many years to come? It is disappointing and disturbing to see the lack of interest and understanding and, in some areas, the actual resistance and hostility my Department experiences in our planning. One wonders whether those who so vociferously and assidiously oppose agricultural planning have ever considered the future of our nation. Under sub-head J I ask for R239 200 less this year. This reduction is mainly due to the completion of the major contract works on the Ncora Flats irrigation scheme and the Butterworth water supply scheme. The recent floods caused considerable damage to the Xilinxa dam and the Gcuwa weir which were both still under construction. Everything possible is being done to pevent these set-backs from affecting the intended construction of the Tsojana dam which will ensure a permanent and sufficient water supply to Cofimvaba. The development of an irrigation scheme under the Tsojana dam is not envisaged in the near future. The development of further irrigation schemes will be considered very carefully. Unless a new approach such as a form of co-operative or corporative farming is accepted these expensive developments will not have the expected economic effect. Due to the fact that irrigation schemes are capital-intensive, highly technical projects with a high economic potential, these projects should, in my opinion, be under State control. Since we are still at the threshold of large irrigation developments, it is necessary, in my opinion, to consider the creation of a body with sufficient legal and administrative status and with sufficient administrative, technical and financial resources at its disposal to plan and control existing and future irrigation developments including infrastructural requirements for the development of secondary industries and its concomitant developments. The Veterinary Services Branch has been doing sterling work to protect and promote the livestock industry. In order to render the necessary protection it is unforunately necessary to introduce certain control measures. These are not intended to favour or "victimise" certain individuals or groups. They are applied as fairly and consistently as possible in the interest of the country. The much maligned Stock Inspector and Agricultural Officer are only carrying out the prescriptions of the law to the best of their ability and to protect the assets and interest of the stock owner. Ticks and internal parasites are the arch enemies of the stock owner as well as the veterinarian. Judged by the number of times that various aspects of dipping come up for discussion in the House, one can only come to the conclusion that what really should be a domestic affair between the Stock owners and the Regional Authority, is elevated to become a political issue. We have very effective dips to kill ticks. But ticks thrive on politics. If you allow politics to mix with dipping, ticks will survive and thrive while the farmers will lose stock by the thousands. The unrelenting danger of ticks

177

the Department should not involve itself unnecessarily with the continuation of commercial projects. The ideal would be for such projects, which include timber, tea, coffee, phormium tenax and general farming projects, to be transferred to the private sector. This can be done through agency agreements and with a view to the eventual take-over of such projects by competent Transkeian citizens. Under sub-head N I ask for an increase of R43 100 for the protection of wildlife and the development of tourism. The additional funds required under item 1 are intended for the fencing of an area at Dwessa to be developed as a nature reserve. The development of tourism will again be given attention since it has definite economic potential. However, the type of development which will make tourism an economically viable industry, requires careful planning and this is at the moment receiving attention. Initially, therefore, no large-scale developments are envisaged. Instead, attention will be given to the protec tion and utilisaion of existing facilities. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members, I wish to express my sincere appreciation to all members on the staff of my Department for their loyal service and dedication to the tremendous task at hand. I also thank you, Mr. Chairman and the Honourable Members, for your attention and now move the approval of the estimate of expenditure for Vote 5. MINISTER OF HEALTH: I second, Mr. Chairman. The debate was adjourned .

right through but there are certain matters which I desire to refer to and to bring home the fact that this is the eleventh year that we have discussed these things in the Assembly. The speech was very lengthy and after listening to the various headings and subheadings I have decided I cannot touch on all the items raised. What is of great importance as far as the Transkeian citizens are concerned is production on the part of the people generally. The question one would ask is: What improvement has been achieved in so far as production is concerned during this period of ten to twenty years back? As far as my observations go, out of an acre of land a person is able to produce two to four bags of maize and only about a quarter of a bag of kaffircorn and 10 lbs, beans. I am referring only to the average yield. If I am not correct, I hope the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will put me right. As far as I know, the Transkei farmer can be blamed to a certain extent in this respect. It is usual for the Transkei farmer to have a number of excuses. During drought periods he will say he is not in a position to plough his lands, and similarly during rainy seasons. When there are hailstorms that is also an excuse. Well, I cannot blame the agricultural officers very much, but the farmers must also be blamed. However, we do have a complaint against the department in that it has failed to see to it that the continued mistakes that are being made year after year are corrected. Surely things cannot continue on the wrong lines for a period of thirty years and more without a remedy being found to that situation. I was pleased to hear today that another attempt is to be made to put things right.

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was resumed. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we have come to a stage where we have to regularize the hon. Mr. Kutu moving an amendment on this vote. Is there a member of the Opposition side who wishes to move an amendment? Mr N. JAFTA: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to move an amendment that Vote 5 sub-head (1 ) in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced to R5 000. 'MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member for Qumbu is out of order. He must first of all seek to have his name substituted for that of the hon. member for Engcobo. Mr JAFTA: Thank you for the explanation. I move that the name of the hon. Mr. G. G. Kutu be substituted by my name. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You cannot substitute it before it is deleted. It must first of all be deleted and then yours substituted. Mr JAFTA : I move that the name of the hon. Mr. Kutu be deleted and substituted by my name and that I move an amendment ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You cannot move an amendment before your name has been substituted by the House. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Hon. members, the hon. Mr Jafta requests that he be allowed to move the amendment in place of the hon. Mr. Kutu . Is there a seconder? CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: I second. Agreed to. Mr JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon, members, I stand up to speak on this policy speech by the hon, the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. I wish to make a few remarks and to criticize certain portions of this speech. As I read this policy speech it seems to aim at certain things of importance. I have not read the speech

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon, member. Hon, members of the House, last week I appealed to the members that I am very sensitive to people who go out of the House shortly after we have opened. We have just been here for fifteen minutes and six members have gone out already. Please just sympathize with me. Mr JAFTA: I was saying, Mr. Chairman, that reference to the fertility of the soil has been repeatedly enunciated in this House so much so that with other people ten to fifteen bags of maize have been taken from the same extent of land. The trouble with our people is that they only want to work during the months of November and December, but sometimes they meet the disappointment of getting no rain when they expect rain. The truth is that an agriculturalist who knows what to do will keep on using his soil. Because our people choose particular times in which to plough their land the result is that they obtain poor crops. If you take into consideration these conditions you will see what happens. Whatever direction you go in the Transkei you will observe that nothing is obtained from the arable allotments. This leads me to say that when conditions are as they are at present a true and honest farmer would then plough his allotment again and plant something new. The soil is sufficiently damp and the oxen are in good condition . It is now for the farmers to take an active part. It would seem as we are talking that this is an easy matter, but when it comes to the practice you will find some of the people are adamant about ploughing only during a particular month of the year. This is largely due to the customs of the people. Mr C. DIKO: It is the people who are slow to understand in the matter. Why complain about the Minister and the department? He is continually blaming the 178

Mr NDZUMO: Employees and their families, and they have been living in that situation and so we are glad to find there is going to be a rapid improvement. In your concentration to improve the situation we would implore you to see that a clinic is rapidly and very at once erected. In those residential areas there are labourers, married with wives and small children, who inhabit those deplorable huts. Recently it has been found out by the district surgeon of Lusikisiki that there has been a typhoid outbreak in those areas. In three of the administrative areas surrounding those residential areas that accommodate the labourers it has been proved that there have been four deaths due to the typhoid outbreak. That area is sought to be quarantined so that there should be no further flareup of this disease. From these residential areas there are people who come from these adjacent administrative areas and they work together. There is therefore this dire necessity that there should be the erection of a clinic in that area. It is common cause that there have been several deaths in that area amongst the labourers who stay in that area. These people come from as far afield as Butterworth, Cofimvaba, Elliotdale, Umzimkulu, and they are accommodated there and some of them die there.

Minister and saying his salary must be reduced. What for? (Laughter) Mr JAFTA: In all I have said I am trying to explain that the people are to be blamed. I have heard that there is a new procedure that is going to be followed by the department, namely group farming. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: In view of the fact that the hon. the Shadow Minister of Agriculture on the other side we understand in representing the hon, the Leader of the Opposition, I crave that he be given more time, Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I don't want to speak against my colleague, but this sort of thing is going to put us in difficulties. He may speak for an hour but when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition comes he is legally entitled to his lengthy time which is more than the ordinary member's time, and what happens then? Shall we say he must not get his time just because it is eaten up by another member? If we can get that assurance, because the other day I saw the hon. the Leader of the Opposition being given his continued time, which is more than that of the ordinary members'. He spoke almost at the end and he got his quota of time which is legally due to him. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a point of correction. I think the hon, the Minister of Agriculture must have misdirected himself. The hon. member for Qumbu is not talking on behalf of the leader. He is addressing the House as Shadow Minister and he is requesting that the Shadow Minister be given ample time to exhaust himself in replying to the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture.

As it has been repeatedly said, there should be the provision of a graveyard for these workers. The adjacent administrative areas refuse to bury these people who come from far away. If I am not mistaken, Sir, I think your predecessor made a promise that something would be done about a graveyard for these people. Also, a desire is adduced to you that there should be a bridge across the Magwa River because of frequent deaths of people who are swept away by this flooded stream . The erection of buildings in that area is done for the people who do not reside in the adjacent area, but very many labourers live around the adjacent administrative area and they have to cross the Magwa River. Not less than four people were swept away about 1972/ 1973 as a result of the flooding of this Magwa River, so it would be desirable that you consider, in consultation with the Roads and Works Department, that there should be a bridge or bridges to be used by these labourers in the surrounding areas. Yes, it is requests that we are addressing to you, more than criticism. I will refer to a very sensitive point now in connection with the treatment of the labourers in that area. It is common cause that several labourers, as a result of misunderstanding between them and the field officers, have vacated and left that place rather than suffer the consequences of victimization. It is common cause that there have been several prosecutions as a result of the misunderstanding between the field officers and the labourers in that area. Some of these labourers criticize the tendencies of some of these field officers who, because of their behaviour, there is the offspring now of a Coloured community.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, please turn to the rules of procedure. Rule 30(2) says : "In any committee of the whole Assembly no member (other than a Minister or member in charge of the business before the committee shall address the committee more than three times on any question (including any amendment) nor speak for longer than fifteen minutes at any one time." I therefore rule that we are going to stick strictly to what is in this book. Mr S. K. NDZUMO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is a pleasure to speak after the last speaker on the Opposition side. His very first sentence was a total approval of the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. In fact, I think agriculture is above party politics principles. Agriculture is the blood of the nation. Everything that has been said in the policy speech was so educative that it just commends one to concentrate in order to survive. The citizens of the Transkei, especially the enlightened citizens, have much to do with the education of the people as a result whereof the last speaker said it is the citizens of the Transkei who are to blame not the department or the Minister. I also stand up, therefore, to support the policy speech of the hon, the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. In his department there are regional authority areas which need some concentration so that there should be progress in such regions. We heard with appreciation that in the Lusikisiki district, in the Lambasi area some buildings are to be erected for 900 labourers. I would desire your leave, Sir, just to enlighten you on what the situation is in that area. As it was said some time formerly, the people have been living there in very deplorable huts, so we are very glad therefore to find there is going to be erection of residential buildings to accommodate some 900 labourers. The population in that area is not less than 1 200 people. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Are those employees?

If it could be inquired into thoroughly it would be found that there are now no less than twelve Coloured children born in that area to women who come from far and wide. Among the labourers there are no Coloured people, nor are there any Coloured women whatsoever. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NDZUMO : It is common cause that there have been prosecutions because of sexual relations between the field officers and the Bantu women in that area. Now, when there is a clash with a labourer, skilled or semi-skilled or an ordinary labourer, such Bantu

179

male is victimized and chucked away, and some of these field officers and some of their henchmen or, shall we say, "good boys" cause that some of the contestants in this sex sphere are prosecuted for daring to go round the areas where these women stay. Trespass prosecutions have therefore been going on and on in that area several times.

matters require consultation between the people and the officials. CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. Minister. In fact, there is nothing more important than land, because we entirely depend on the produce of the land. There are certain officers known as extension officers and you will never find these extension officers at any time anywhere, teaching the people the correct method of ploughing their land. Even the poultry is not being attended to properly. I will not go deeply into the question of these extension officers, but we do not receive any assistance from them. The land is being washed away, there are many dongas and no-one is interested in seeing to the reclamation of the soil. We also know that there is an irrigation scheme which has been introduced in a certain district of the Transkei. We are thankful for these things, but if those officers who are working there are not watched then we will lose interest. What you find prevailing in the administrative areas is that when an extension officer has been transferred to an administrative area he takes the place of the chief, because nothing can be done without his consent. It is for that reason, hon. Minister, that you seem not to praise our efforts as far as the land is concerned. It is because when these officers arrive they seem to usurp our positions as chiefs. Notwithstanding the fact that they do not teach us to plough and till our lands, they say we must not buy cattle from outside but we should buy cattle from the Transkei. We do not know who in the Transkei is in a position to sell stock. Instead of these people staving off starvation they are just causing starvation. If they fail to teach us agriculture they should just let us go and buy cattle from wherever we can purchase them. We are grateful to the hon. Minister, particularly when we hear that he has been granted an increase in order that the servants of the department should be interested in their work when they are paid well. If these officers are going to be highly paid it will therefore be necessary that the people should be taught how to use their lands profitably. In the Qamata irrigation scheme we plant vegetables but we have no money. It would not be sufficient to pay good salaries to the officers when the people they work with cannot enjoy good results and therefore have no incentive to take an interest in farming. In fact, there are indications of a successful living in Qamata area, but it helps no-one in that area unless arrangements are made for marketing the produce. Because of your influence in Qamata area the people can make a living through the growing of vegetables and other produce. I am one of those who is not dependent upon my salary because I produce and sell lucerne. There are other people who can also live from the land, people like widows who do not even worry us to take them to the magistrate's office for pensions. When mention was made of the increase in the vote I was greatly pleased because I thought we would be assisted in our area of Qamata to acquire baling machines. As we grow lucerne and we have only two baling machines we have to wait until our lucerne has dried up. I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to the Qamata scheme so that it will be successful and even the Opposition would not always oppose, but would be interested. As far as rehabilitation and resettlement is concerned, we people who live in those areas enjoy quite a number of privileges. We are in a position to sell good beef because our stock feeds in good grazing

We would that an establishment of a certain board be introduced in that area so that the interests of the workers should be guarded. When these labourers are being victims they do not know what to do and where to go and they just become quite helpless. As I was saying, in these residential areas erected for these labourers there are young children and there are hundreds of them. When you effect the building of these residences for these 900 people it would be very desirable for a school to be considered too by the department. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was still talking about group farming and I am greatly interested in that proposition as it is a new procedure which would appear to promise some progress. However, I entertain fears of the manner in which this is to be introduced to the people because it would appear to be the desire of the people that they should follow such procedure. You also mentioned that it is desirable that the lower authorities have some say in this matter. However, one should guard against failure because, to my mind, the ordinary farmer is the person best suited to understand this matter. I am not trying to cast a slur against the chiefs, but I know that the chiefs are the people who only think of their pleasure. (Interjections) To do good service in land matters requires a great deal of concentration. All this depends largely upon the people. I do not mean to say that all chiefs are alike. Mention was also made of shareholders, and that would act as an incentive to the people to take an active interest in this work. Nevertheless, it is essential that this should come out of the desire of the people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But that is what is contained in the policy speech. Mr JAFTA: I would like the hon. Minister to say something about a certain meat project in Lusikisiki. I am not talking about tea, I am talking about beef. All these matters largely depend on the Cabinet and the committees which consider these questions. Reference has also been made to irrigation schemes. It is my opinion that people who apply for irrigation should have their applications considered, however small the project will be. I am grateful for the gift donated to us by a certain oil firm, which cost R10 000. I would urge the department to attend to afforestation so that we shall have more forests.

Sloping ground and mountainous areas are all suitable for the planting of trees. Trees should also be planted along our roads in the Transkei because that would enhance the beauty of the Transkei. As we travel around there are certain places where there is a scarcity of trees. We bring all these matters to the attention of the department. I wish to lay stress on the matter of group farming and the way it should be dealt with, because in that way we shall be relieved of starvation year in, year out. That should be considered in a suitable manner so that there will be no trouble nerally like innovations and they should be approached tactfully. We have experienced something in regard to between the people of the Transkei . People do not gerehabilitation because if people have not asked for rehabilitation we usually meet with difficulties. All these

180

the mud. In regard to these agricultural officers, we find there are grades 1 , 2 and 3. All this is just another way of avoiding paying these people. (Laughter) There are no such grades amongst the white people but only amongst the Blacks. They must all be bunched into one grade and that is the grade that carries the most money. (Laughter) When we talk of independence we want first of all to fill our stomachs and move wherever we wish. Once a person is educated all that is expected is that that person must earn money and we must stop this grading of people. Another point I would like to raise is that these agricultural officers have long distances to cover in order to do their work. Horse transport is outmoded and they should be given vans. In my experience a person who uses a horse for a period of twelve months must ultimately suffer from kidney trouble because there is so much discomfort. (Laughter) We have not seen a white man travelling on a motorbike or on horseback because they are looking after their health. It is designed that these Bantu agricultural officers should use horses so that they should die before they get to grade 1. (Laughter) Attention should also be paid to the supply of dipping materials . It takes so long for these chemicals to reach their destination that it appears the transport used is quite useless. If a firm in Durban has to supply dipping material a vehicle must be sent to fetch it. Now, we have another complaint in that in the afforestation section much attention is paid to the planting of bluegums and the planting of wattle is neglected although we use it a great deal for firewood and kraalwood. Wattle should be planted because it has a variety of uses for our people. The concentration seems to be mainly to bring in revenue, because once the gumtrees have been cut the shoots will grow. People are complaining that gumtrees are no good for firewood or for kraal-wood. It is no use for firewood in stoves. The Government must please pay attention to this and the wattle must be planted today. (Laughter) The roads in these plantations must be kept in good repair in order that the vehicles using these roads have no difficulty. All the gates around the forest must be opened so that people can go through any side. If a person comes for business in the forest to meet the officials there he must use the nearest gate to his home. We want a big forest established so that all the wild life should be put there and we should not have to go to other places to see these animals. Even the baboons will be collected and kept in these reserves and they will do less damage to our crops . (Laughter)

camps. However, I wish to make certain requests as far as rehabilitation is concerned. What happens is that people are removed against their will from certain localities in which they have established their homes. I don't imply that force is used, but it was not what they had planned to do. Also, a person is compensated with only R8 for a rondavel and they say that if a person has put up the walls and has marked his allotment he is told he has done absolutely nothing and is therefore not entitled to compensation. I think the highest amount payable for compensation is R16, but the amount is quite insufficient and should be doubled to R32. What happens in Emigrant Tembuland is that the men go to work on the mines and the women are left at home. They have to put up a home and because they have not strength enough they have to hire people to do so and they pay for that labour. When one has to put up a kraal stones have to be drawn by sledges, water has to be fetched, poles have to be cut and thatching grass has to be collected. The cost far exceeds R32. It would be appreciated if they were to be given poles free of charge because the forests belong to this department. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I should like to take up where the last speaker left off. I suggest that in this question of resettlement a person should be paid compensation immediately, before he is told to build on a new site. The removal in most cases affects females who have no husbands. In one locality in my constituncy there are people who have not yet received their compensation money. The people have now erected their buildings and the extension officers say that the matter was never finalized by the senior officials. This particular extension officer has now left the Mqanduli district and we have no extension officer there. We suggest we must be given an extension officer and he must be supplied with a motorcar. Another aspect is that where people are resettled the roads which have been in use must not be closed off. Now the portions by which we enter the town have been fenced in and the Hala tribe and the Maqiyas are unable to get into the town. (Laughter) At this locality of Ncanasini there is no chief, but it is the extension officer who allocates the arable allotments. We were lucky, however, when this extension officer left because he was no good and we are assisted by an extension officer from Elliotdale. He is doing his work well although the work is rather too much for him because his services are required at Elliotdale as well as at Mqanduli. We also request that people who buy cattle in the Transvaal must be allowed to introduce that stock here because there has been a high rate of cattle deaths here. The habit of the extension

Mr Chairman, I request that these complaints I have placed before the hon. Minister should be met, because these things are required by the people. The agricultural officers must go among the people to caponize their fowls. What we know is that an agricultural officer must do his work as such. He must divorce himself from the chief and must not assume the rôle of the chief, as I witnessed with one agricultural officer who asked the people for sheep to slaughter when he was going to allot their lands. It is very urgent that all the medicines used for the prevention of stock disease should be made available through the Veterinary Department. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I wish to remind members that the habit of coming in late is going to be checked . When we come back at 4.15 and the members are not in at that time I will order the Secretary to call the roll. CHIEF M. MAGADLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy

officers refusing to give permits on the pretext that the land is overstocked must come to an end. Our sons buy horses in Johannesburg and those horses die there because permits are not obtainable. The people must be given permits and the good relations which exist in their homes should not be disturbed. We ask that boreholes be sunk in the areas which have been rehabilitated. Nothing has been done towards that. Those boreholes have no water and we get water now only from the rain. In places like Jixini we require boreholes to be sunk in order to bring water to the people. What is the use of trying to propagate rehabilitation when nothing is done? People are therefore wary of accepting the scheme. Dams were put up in places like Darabe and they have silted up but nothing has been done to get rid of

181

centration of your field staff because the terrain there is very broken and the topography is very undulating. You can then understand how mercilessly erosion does bite and yet, Sir, it has been practically proved that the topsoil in those areas is very rich and very deep. It is considered to have about 36 ins. of topsoil. I am sure that under scientific management of these areas we are still going to be able to use those areas for another fifty years or more. Surely that is a good asset which your department will foster with care. Mr W. C. SINGATA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is clear that from the very beginning there was a mistake in the attempt to stop soil erosion. If you know the difficulties of your department you will find yourself immersed in further difficulties. In the administrative areas outside you will find that more than 50% of the people have no arable allotments or residential plots, simply because there was never any provision for land to be preserved or set aside for the children. The population is increasing but the land does not expand .

speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Never so good a speech made to the few representing so many. Truly speaking, after listening to the speech by the hon. Minister I have come to the conclusion that it is really not necessary to pursue this debate as far as I am concerned . Mr Chairman, shall I say by now, after the hon. Minister as delivered his speech, I am sure each and every one of us is aware ― or shall I put it this way? - it is a concrete fact which cannot be removed by any vocabulary that a young state like the Transkei as it stands has to increase its food production from the soil and improve its stock to the fullest of its ability in order that it should meet the demands of the population explosion. Truly speaking, Mr Chairman, it is not only the Transkei which is suffering from a population explosion. It is a worldwide problem. This reminds me of the remark made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposion when he referred to the hon. the Chief Minister some time back. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition remarked that there were African boys who are loitering in the streets of Umtata and by implication he suggested these boys should be taken back to work on the soil. It would appear to me that this ideology has been confirmed by the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta. May I draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that it is not each and every one who is on the soil who is a farmer in the true sense of the term "farmer". The very fact that these boys are loitering in the streets of Umtata is indicative of the fact that they are no farmers. We on this side do not regard them as farmers, but we either regard them as non-farmers or idle characters. As I have said, Mr Chairman, it would be of no use after such a good policy speech from the hon. Minister to go back to the details, except that I will just make some few references here and there. I see here that the hon. member for Qumbu complains and asks what has the hon. Minister done since he took over, or since 1963 what has been the increase in the production of food from the soil. I shall refer the hon. member to the annual Agricultural Report for 1972/73. If he would study it he would find that before 1963 the crop production was about 21, but if you read this report you will find it has increased by about 50%. Now, we have already heard about the irrigation scheme. The hon. the Chief Minister in his policy speech said there was a widow at Qamata who was making an income of R50 a month over nine months from an area of irrigation, and there is also an hon. chief who is making an income of about R100 a month from lucerne. The Agricultural Report for 1972/73 shows that an area of 8958 ha had been planned. I am not going to mention 60% of the Transkei having been planned because the hon. Minister has already mentioned that. Really, Mr Chairman, it is very pleasing to see (I have got the figures here) that there were 423 young improved bulls introduced into the Transkei during the year 1972/73 and 345 were sold to the farmers on subsidy. I can quote, Mr Chairman , and quote until I quote myself. If somebody paid a visit to Rhode location (I am talking about rehabilitation and planning) they would have seen the water and piping system in the whole location, which means that the fetching of water by our wives from the river some distance from their homes is at an end. Mr Chairman, may I, with your permission, make a request to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. The position is that in the northern areas - I am talking about higher up as you go - there is need for con-

Referring to the Veterinary Department, I wish you could have paid special attention to this department. There was a Dr. Williamson who was very patient and diligent, so much so that during his term of office there we never incurred any stock losses. Any time you telephoned him, even if it was for the immunization of chickens, he would travel more than twenty miles and come to your place the following day. People have been deprived both of their stock and their poultry. These veterinary officers should hasten to respond to calls from the locations. They are the people who have knowledge of how to treat cattle diseases . The stock inspectors are not only good for the regions, they are also profitable to the people. If they are not profitable it means they are not doing their work well We find quite a number of officers who are not promoted and yet people are regularly promoted in these departments . We therefore begin to entertain some doubts as to whether these people have a low standard of education. The stock inspectors seem to be very busy counting our stock constantly, as though we cannot count our stock for ourselves. You have also mentioned that these agricultural officers are doing their work in a routine manner because they have been in these jobs for a long time and they have fallen into a groove. However, we require agricultural officers who are able to give us advice on how to keep our trees in good condition. Some people have no idea of how to prune trees. There are so many names attached to these officers, such as "extension officers", "agricultural officers" and so on, and yet we are not certain of what their duties are exactly. As far as water from boreholes is concerned, these officers have to look for water underground and they are unable to locate the exact spots to drill. In my location they tried to find water in four different places but they could not find it. I asked why they were paid to find this water and the answer was that they could not see what was under the ground. (Laughter) I personally directed an officer where to drill and I said if he could not find water there I was prepared to go to gaol. He drilled and water was found there. (Laughter) In connexion with these co-operative societies, people become confused because the prices of commodities bought through these societies is exactly the same as those charged elsewhere. People were under the impression that they would get these commodities at reduced prices, but there appears to be no difference at all.

182

demned lock, stock and barrel. He has also mentioned something about group farming which will be a salvation for the Transkei. At this stage I think of the tractor drivers in my area who make a fortune during the ploughing season. The idea of agricultural co-operatives is progressive. If such ideas are carried out effectively the old, cherished, antiquated farming practice in the Transkei will be abolished. It always pains my heart in my own district when I look across the Umzimkulu River and see a few European farmers having vegetables throughout the year, making use of the Umzimkulu water which would easily flow into the sea otherwise, while my people on this side of the river continue to farm in the old way. On the question of agricultural officers having fallen into a groove I would suggest to the hon. Minister that in-service courses, bonus allowances to be paid to diligent officers should be used as methods of inducement. I would also suggest that while the system of understudying in the process of Africanization is applied we should also apply the other method of sending boys who are inclined towards agriculture to go abroad for further study in agriculture. Without wasting too many words, Mr Chairman, I would like to mention a few ideas which I call " inherited evils" in the Transkei system of agriculture. The men who were responsible for guiding our destiny in the past as a race cared very little for our agricultural and economic development. They were more interested in filling the Transkei with whiteprotected traders whose business was to suck blood from the African instead of teaching improved skills and techniques necessary for his elementary existence. The very primary aim of what was called Native education, sponsored through the auspices of missionary endeavour • · DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Would you kindly stick to the policy speech, please. Mr PAMLA: Here, Mr Chairman, I wanted to referto what The Rev Bernard Huss said at the beginning of the century in relation to agriculture. Mr K. M. GUZANA: We are interested in agriculture today. Mr PAMLA: He said that what you take from the soil must be returned to the soil. This was said at the beginning of this century. Mr GUZANA: We will bury you and return you to the soil. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr PAMLA: We also find some introduced evils in our system of agriculture through our schools. There were no funds made available for the buying of seed, for the buying of fences and for teaching agriculture in our schools practically. From my own experience, agricultural periods at school become nothing else but recreation periods, and how on earth can you hope to improve the standard of agriculture if our own courses in agriculture are so poor right from primary-school level? Finally, Mr Chairman, on this question of agriculture I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister that the Department of Agriculture works hand in hand with the Department of Education, especially on the question of selecting suitable trainees for agricultural purposes. We would also like to ask the hon. Minister to expedite the project of supplying water to areas which have been rehabilitated. It would also be a wonderful idea if some agricultural boards were formed in the various districts to advise the Minister on agriculture and forestry in those districts. The debate was adjourned. House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress.

The bulls we are getting now look quite majestic, but there are no people to tell us how to look after them. Another trouble is that the agricultural officers will tell us that the camps are overstocked and we must not take any more stock to that camp, and yet we know the carrying capacity of that particular camp. I went to the magistrate on Saturday and told him that our cattle should not be culled because I know the carrying capacity of our area. For some time there has been talk that our cattle must be culled but there is no necessity for that. This man simply goes there because he is a servant of the department. As you go round you will find people are not given certificates for their kraals and for their arable land. In the locations you will find a mass of officials, some of whom are called agricultural officers and some land constables, and their activities clash. The land constable represents the magistrate, so much so that you will always find confusion in regard to the allocation of land. The land constables would like to allocate an allotment to someone and the agricultural officers go directly against that decision. We don't know what steps to take in regard to the burning of grass in winter, but we would request the department to order a certain weedkiller which prevents the growth of weeds. A demonstration was given to us at Tsolo by a white demonstration officer. He told us that if we use that weedkiller no weeds would grow until about December. It is our wish that these cooperatives should order that remedy, because we have no mealies this year as the weeds have outgrown the mealies. We request the Government to assist us in this manner. The Government should obtain that weedkiller. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . After listening to a very carefully prepared address I came to the conclusion that our hon. Minister has matriculated in the college of commonsense and graduated in the university of experience. In fact, I would like to make one little quotation in which the hon. Minister falls into the first category. Somebody said that great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events and low minds discuss people. (Laughter) Going through that address it is clear that our hon. Minister falls in the first category in that he has given us food for thought in the field of agriculture. I am not going to waste time . . Mr K. M. GUZANA: But we want food for the stomach , you see. Mr PAMLA : · • I just want to make some observation on a few of the highlights of his address. He said that the pace of agriculture should be accelerated in order to forestall the possibility of starvation. It is very clear to everybody that people in the Transkei have to concentrate on agricultural development in order that the Transkeians produce sufficient food for themselves now that the white traders have left the country for fear of coming under the Transkeian Government. I was pleasantly struck to note that the Department of Agriculture has managed to get over 60% of the Transkei under the rehabilitation scheme. This is a marvellous achievement in so short a period as just a decade. Mr GUZANA: It started long before that. Mr. PAMLA: If you take into account that the rural community is more static than dynamic, this has been a wonderful achievement in the face of opposition from Guzana-ism .... (Laughter). Mr. GUZANA: That is nonsense. Mr PAMLA: • • where rehabilitation was con-

183

people to new residential areas and demarcating agricultural allotments. The result is that those who are in rehabilitated areas have many complaints against the scheme, not because the scheme is inherently unsuccessful but because the scheme has not been implemented fully. The consequent result is that those who have not accepted the scheme have nothing to look forward to in the land of milk and honey which should be the rehabilitated area, and I think this psychological reaction is primarily responsible for the reluctance we find amongst our people in accepting the soil conservation schemes. We feel this scheme can sell itself but it is not because it is done in a half-hearted fashion. Grazing paddocks are overgrazed and stock cannot move from one paddock to another in spite of the fact that the grass has been eaten down to root level. Windmills which have broken down take nine months to a year before they are repaired. Some reservoirs which keep this water are open and the water is despoiled and rendered unhygienic. The water is not even chlorinated for human consumption. Therefore there is need for some change in the policy of the department so that it does recommend to the public the new scheme of rehabilitation, with the scheme advertising and recommending itself. Considerable emphasis has been placed on bringing in industries and factories in the Transkei and I say this is good enough and that this is going to help draw people away from the land so that bigger areas of land can be available to those people who have an interest in farming, and I want to suggest that it is only those who use the soil throughout the year who should have a right to use the soil and those who do not use it must get off the land. How often do you find large stretches of agricultural allotments lying fallow for two, three or four years, or lying fallow for half the year when it can be used to produce food? This is the sort of thing that is going to hold back our agricultural production in the Transkei and most of these peasant farmers are really introducing into the Transkei what might be described as "Absent landlordism" because they are away from the soil for the greater part of the year and only come back for two or three months of the year. And whilst you have your chiefs recommending people for agricultural allotments with all that that entails, without our referring specifically to what it entails, so long will you have worthless peasants on the land, using the land merely to erode it and not to produce food. Mr W. Z. LUFEFENI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture in his policy speech which was read here. On this side of the House we were satisfied when we looked at the speech. As I represent the Tembus here I wish to raise a few points in regard to this department. As it is, what seems to be of importance is the question of rehabilitation. It is also suggested that in order that the Transkeian citizens should progress and move forward, their administrative areas should be rehabilitated. The Tembus have asked me to reccommend that even if rehabilitation does take place the size of the residential sites must be the same in measurement that is, 70 square yards. The sites that are 50 square yards are far too small. Sir, it is noticeable that the rehabilitated areas in Umtata contain people who complain, rather than those who have undertaken rehabilitation

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 11th April 1974. THURSDAY, 11th APRIL 1974

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it has been decided by the Cabinet that this House should bid farewell to the Honourable the Commissioner-General by way of tribute for the services which he has rendered to the Transkei during his term of office and that will be on Friday, 10th May, at 10 a.m., and that on that occasion he will be given an opportunity to reply. Now, at 11.30 on the same day the House will adjourn in order to attend a public gathering in the Jubilee Hall where the same sentiments will be repeated, involving the public of the Transkei. I hope the hon. members will take note of this and try by all means to advertise it to the general public, in addition to other agencies and advertisements. Mr Chairman, the members of the Legislative Assembly for the Gcaleka region will be absent on Tuesday, 16th of this month, to attend a regional authority meeting in Willowvale. I hope they will be excused for being absent. Again, Mr Chairman, I wish to announce that the House will adjourn at 1 p.m. today because of the holiday tomorrow. APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I move that the House resolve itself into committee. CHIEF MINISTER: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry was resumed. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would like to share a few thoughts with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture in connexion with his policy speech and our concern in agricultural development in the Transkei. My only regret is that the Government benches are today eroded to a degree that is quite alarming. There are more empty chairs than those which are occupied and I think the Chief Whip of the governing side should do something about that. Mr Chairman, it is quite pleasing to note that this department is committed to change, and that change can only be for the good . We have had this pronouncement ever since 1965 when Minister after Minister has insisted upon a change of attitude towards agriculture in the Transkei but very little can be chalked up under the head "Change". This change relates to the size of the land that each farmer uses ; it relates to the type of crop that is grown; it relates to the position of agricultural allotments, regard being had to slope and topography; it relates to the personnel that is on the land now. What have we done over the past ten years under these items which I think are part and parcel of the word "Change"? You have had the soil conservation scheme which was adopted and taken over by this Government in 1964, but there is very little to recommend it to the peasant farmer, and this is because no area which has accepted the soil conservation scheme has had that scheme implemented one hundred per cent. Half-hearted efforts have been made and these have been primarily concerned with fencing, moving

measures. It often happens that when these people have accepted rehabilitation and they have to be shifted, they are moved from dry residential sites and placed in marshy areas. Once they raise complaints they are told that they had accepted rehabilitation. I shall pass on

184

to something else now. I have been asked to put forward this matter by the Tembus. As we are all stockowners, when bulls and rams are available for sale preference is given to those who have accepted rehabilitation. There are bulls on a nearby farm which have been there for up to three years waiting to be sold to people who have accepted rehabilitation. We ask that these bulls be sold to people who have not rehabilitated their areas because they are also stockowners. We are farmers and stockowners in the Transkei. There is a certain type of fertilizer we buy when we are preparing to plough. When we approach these co-operatives we are required to produce cards which will prove whether or not our areas have been rehabilitated . We are taxpayers of the Transkei and there should be no discrimination between the taxpayers . We must all enjoy what is to our advantage. If the Government is keen to step up production in the Transkei they should encourage those people who want good production . I shall now come to the loss of stock through redwater fever. This is a very sore spot with us, Mr Minister. The black man's bank is in his livestock. I am suspicious that there is some sort of council which is aiming at the reduction of our stock, but as a new Minister in this portfolio I do not think you are sharing in that council. There is no reason why we should be told that remedies are unavailable when our stock is dying, when remedies are available at Pietermaritzburg. I also refute the fact that there are veterinary officers here in Umtata. They may be here only in name. What is the reason for not sending out these XG vehicles to fetch these stock remedies? We plead with you because our cattle are dying while we are here. I am quite certain this remedy has not been exhausted . It is the same as with the remedy we used for cutworm. Immediately the people started buying this we were told it was finished. It is the same as the levy which was raised in order to buy an effective tick remedy. Now the money has been collected but the remedy has disappeared. (Laughter) We are encountering this difficulty as people who now and again offer livestock for sale. When you send your stock to the salepens you find a senior stock inspector and a dipping foreman present. When you ask for a permit in order to offer your stock for sale you are told you should have got the permit at the dipping tank. We plead with you that when these officials of the department go to the stock sales they should carry the necessary books in order to issue permits to the stockowners because it sometimes happens that the stockowners are ignorant of the day on which the sale is to be held. Coming to the inoculation of the stock whose numbers are now dwindling, I want to know for what reason they were supposed to be inoculated. We have been notified in the Umtata area under the Dalindysbo region that our cattle will be inoculated in September. When shall we begin our ploughing operations in that case? We wrote to the department and the reply was to the effect that the decision could not be reversed. If you cannot reverse your decision we would ask that there be no inoculation this year. Before I sit down I would like to mention that there is an administrative area near Tabase store. The shop at Tabase serves a number of administrative areas and there is a bus which starts operating at 6 a.m. until 6 p.m. continually going backwards and forwards between Umtata and Tabase shop. It often happens that some of the people put up in the neighbouring homesteads. As that administrative area has now accepted rehabilitation it is going to be moved to a marshy spot. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. mem-

bers, one finds oneself compelled to rush over these matters which are of importance, because of limited time. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me. Will the hon. Chief Mabandla from Tsolo take his seat, please. Mr GUZANA: I am happy to note that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is taking kindly to group farming where people will organize themselves into cooperatives or corporations. Two weeks back some of us had the privilege (I call it a privilege) of going to Ilanti and Mbinzana in the Ciskei where a project of this nature is being worked out scientifically, and I must say with wonderful results. Started only (I mean operatively) in May last year, by February this year it had shown an income of R40 000 and the land is carrying a crop of cotton, tobacco, potatoes, gooseberries, etc., which might bring in a further R100 000 profit. I think one of the officers who is an African ( I don't know what grade he holds) is earning R100 a month and the neighbouring African inhabitants are employed on this project, women at 35 to 60 cents a day, men up to R1 a day, and if they work on Sunday they; receive double pay and if they have reported regularly throughout the week for work on Monday they are given a bonus of R2 to R4. These people are therefore staying at their homes and earning upwards of R30 to R40 a month, working on the soil, looking after the crops and staying with their families and earning money every day. The psychological rehabilitation is enormous and quite staggering, and economically these people are able to clothe themselves, buy food and send their children to school, and their income is guaranteed year in, year out; season in, season out. How I wish I could have carried that project into this House and dumped it here for all to look at. I suggest that we had better start on a programme of propaganda to get our people to accept group farming. The possibilities are enormous and here on this question of propaganda I want to warn the Department of Agriculture and Forestry on its programme in Radio Bantu, because up to now threequarters of the time is wasted on: "Ewe, oh ewe. Ewe, Ngxabane, ewe, ewe, Ndiyabona." (Laughter) (Yes, oh yes. Yes, Ngxabane, yes, yes . I see.) All nonsense! Wasting time and not teaching people. Why can't this department do something like this : "If you live in the belt from Engcobo through Umtata, Tsolo, Qumbu Tabankulu, Flagstaff, at this time of the year you can plant this, that and the other. This is what you have to put into your soil in order to get high production. These are the various types of seed you can use and you can obtain them at such-and-such a place for so much." Something constructive, something which teaches the people. I do not want to pay for a wireless licence to listen to man sucking his pipe. (Laughter) With regard to your department, Sir, I think it is quite obvious that you have none of these African employees training as veterinary surgeons. (Interjections) If you want to know if I do use the soil, come over to my place. Come and see my garden. I will give you a mealie cob the length of your arm. (Laughter) Has this Government ever made a positive approach to universities providing this instruction and training in order to get our men trained? You see, you cannot get anything done if you sit down and wait for things to come to you. I believe your department should have a committee concerned with the training of Africans who are in that department, and they will essay out to these universities and ask for facilities to be made available to these men. The days of manna falling from Heaven are over. Then, Sir, something has been said about mechanization and at Ilanti I saw mechanization which 185

from our regional authority and they knew nothing about this practice. It is a new departure now in that at present even if it is rainy weather the cattle are dipped. When there have been showers and the following morning it is still raining we are told to dip our stock. The result is that as the soil is wet the mud is carried by the hooves and that makes the dip in the tank very dirty. We request that after showers the cattle should not be dipped, because that dip will be mixed with mud. This department is very important to the people. I will come now to the agricultural officers. One often meets a sepctacle where these agricultural officers are entertained and fowls are slaughtered for them and you find them at table. Money is voted by the Government for cropgrowing competitions. Say an agricultural officer is in charge of three administrative areas, what is wrong in that agricultural officer having a demonstration plot of his own so that the people can learn from that? Mr Minister, you are paying these officers and it is one of their duties to educate the people in regard to agricultural matters. I think it is correct that even if the extent of the land is a mere acre it would meet the need for demonstration . Now I find that these agricultural officers are putting themselves in a difficult situation by allotting kraal sites - a job that devolves upon the chiefs. If the agricultural officers will teach the people our land will be like the Argentine, which has no minerals but the people are subsisting on agricultural production. We shall be like India which subsists on the production of rice without any minerals. We shall learn once we have people to lead us. People cannot know without being taught. One often sees an agricultural officer lying at the side of the stock kraal, doing nothing. I am sorry, Mr Minister, because you have just taken up the reins in a portfolio which has many difficulties . We ask you to exercise control. Kindly pay attention to our requests, Sir. Mr A. S. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is clear beyond all doubt that the department we are dealing with today is the most important, so important that I believe there should be two Ministers. Because we are taking this matter above party politics, each member just says the same thing as has been said by the other members. Everything that has been stated in this House is not mere criticism, but something that is constructive. I will now deal with the matter of forests. There are people employed to guard the forests and their salary is too low. A man is paid at the rate of R50 a month and receives no pension. When he is guarding the forests he is bound to work day and night. There is no night or day shift, but he is always on duty. Their salary scale should be revised, and as people who work for the Government they should be entitled to a pension. When a person works in the forest he is not in a position to enjoy the sunlight. Secondly, some new arrangement should be made as far as these forests are concerned . It should be made clear that we are now holding the reins. When our wives go to collect wood from the forest they are given only one receipt, no matter how many of them there are, and when, say, ten women have been issued with one receipt they have to wait for the last women to leave the forest. If that receipt is lost the whole ten of them will be in trouble for collecting wood without a permit. When it comes to stock improvement, there should be no discrimination in regard to the sale of bulls and even those who live in unrehabilitated areas should enjoy the same privileges . All these people are taxpayers and even the herds that are on the grazing commonages need a bull of a good breed. It will then be realised that people are being treated the same and that

increased labour opportunities for the people around this project. That farm employs about a thousand womenfolk, about 300 to 400 men, and after the childten have returned from school they may go into the farm and work and earn money, so that mechanization does not necessarily reduce the number of labourers on the farm if the two are related in such a way and if the crops grown are such that they are labour-intensive. Let me say that I do feel that your policy speech must have been written before this House began its sitting. We do not see any reaction to the suggestion that in each district we should have project farms. That was a matter raised very early during the sitting of this House and you could have made up your mind about it to give us what your reaction is to a scheme like that. If this was food for thought, it is time it became substance for expression. Let us react to suggestions by all means, and not find that one is speaking to a wooden face. I think we can justifiably say so, because nothing happens. We make suggestions but we don't get any reaction, nor the following year do we get any reaction. Everything is just quiet, as if nothing has been said. (Interjections) Let us have some reaction, please, otherwise there is really no point in talking. Just one last word may we ask you to identify this oil company which has given to your department a closed-circuit television set. After all, we must know to whom we owe thanks ― not just "an oil company". Mr C. DABULA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. He is quite right in saying that agriculture and forestry are very important. There are certain things which must be brought to your knowledge because you have accepted a portfolio which has many difficulties. One of the difficulties with which we are faced is that the people who are removed from their homesteads have their buildings evaluated by your agricultural officers and they have much to complain of. An ordinary thatched rondavel is valued the same as a building with iron roof - namely, R10. What happened in one area was that people were removed to a new residential area and when the payments for compensation were made even those who had not been shifted were paid out. (Laughter) Those who have been removed complained, and the cause of the complaint emanates from the agricultural officers. Another complaint is the question of water supplies. People are removed from a spot which has a sufficient supply of water and they have to take up residence in new areas where there is no water. They are promised that water will be made available and it takes from a year to five years before anything is done. They have to resort to going to swampy places where the water is contaminated and unprotected, and as a result the children suffer from all kinds of stomach ailments such as dysentry. We ask that it must be Priority No. 1 that when people are removed from one area to another, due regard should be paid to the availability of water, because water is a source of life. Another complaint is in the delay of payment of compensation. Some people in the area where I reside were removed as far back as 1964 and they have still not been paid. We ask that your department should go into this matter. It came to light that even the lists which contained the names of people who had to be compensated has been lost, and some of the buildings have been completely razed to the ground. That is in the Jijini Administrative Area in Mount Frere. Coming to the question of cattle dipping, there is a new practice of dipping cattle on Saturdays. I do not know which offices open so that the employees must work on Saturday. We asked for an explanation

186

regard to livestock. As we are people who have livestock we are not encouraged when we see that our stock is examined by stock inspectors because some of them know nothing about farming. They have to become inspectors because they can write figures. I say this because when a beast is sick we have to go to these officers and ask what sort of remedy to use, and they do not know. Some will advise us to go to the chemist and buy some sort of medicine and then we find that that medicine is not the correct one for healing that particular sickness. We would that whilst we are using these demonstrators there must be some who are thoroughly taught about diseases of cattle. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, having listened to all of you very attentively, I think all the main points have been thoroughly canvassed. The hon. member who is going to speak from the Opposition side will be the last one and I will then request that I report progress and the hon. Minister can reply on Tuesday. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, we have already stated that this matter should be above all party politics. However, I want to refer this matter to the department. I wish to suggest that some agricultural officers should tour right round the Transkei to decide on the most suitable places for stock farming or for crop farming and that the hon. Minister should go on that tour so that when he talks in this House he is talking about things he has actually seen. Another matter in regard to this department is that when anything in this connexion has to be done, the people are not advised. Stock such as poultry, pigs and so forth are available at the Tsolo School of Agriculture and the people who enjoy that right of knowing when stock is going to be disposed of are the neigh→ bouring people close to the school, whereas on the other hand we believe we should be entitled to enjoy such privileges as we are all taxpayers. Another complaint is that the department does not pay any heed to those residents who have not accepted rehabilitation. If such people apply for a windmill or a borehole they will be told that nothing can be done for them. but when taxes are being collected they will be demanded from everyone alike. That is a source of complaint, because the people feel there is discrimination. When a certain area accepts rehabilitation it has been suggested that a certain committee is appointed and this committee's duties are to advise the agricultural officer as to the areas which are to be demarcated for arable lands, for grazing and for residential sites, but when rehabilitation has to be carried out these officers do not consult with the committee. You find that at certain places the fences are broken and this is only because of the Government's actions. Another question arises when applications for land sites are made and instead of the officers attending to such applications the people will be told that they are still engaged elsewhere. We do not know whether it is the intention of this department that the people should live in caves. I know of some people who have been waiting up to twenty years without having been allocated any land . I hope this will be brought to the attention of these officers. I shall not speak at length, Mr Chairman, because much has been said already and I see they are all anxious to return to their homes. I would stress this point, however. As the cattle have been dying it is also suggested that the agricultural officers should tell the people whether the stock is sufficient, but this is not done. Another point was raised by the people in connexion with new stock introduced into a certain dipping tank area, and it may be that stock was stolen. We would ask that the dipping staff should be requested to make investigations

there is no discrimination. Probably even those people who live in unrehabilitated areas would then begin to appreciate rehabilitation. I will not talk at length as far as the agricultural officers are concerned, because much has been said about them. A great deal of trouble has been caused since the duty of issuing permits has been transferred to these officers from the dipping staff. When the dipping staff attended to these permits it used to take just a day to do the work, but now that the duty has been transferred to these agricultural officers it may take a month to obtain a permit. You have to spend money when you travel from your home to town. When you get to town, particularly at Engcobo, you will find that the whole country has to come to obtain permits from this one officer. During the time when these permits were dealt with by the dipping staff, people used to obtain permits at all these dipping tanks . I am drawing the attention of the hon. Minister to these points which have been mentioned too by other speakers. CHIEF N. SIBI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. Minister. We have discovered that there is no controversy as far as this matter is concerned, save that we request the department for a few items which must be put right. I have found that besides making certain requests there is also the possibility of the farmer getting advice as to how to improve his methods. I will not take a long time, therefore, to address this House because usually I never have sufficient time because I have to have two interpreters. I want to request the Department of Agriculture, and I am going to refer that department specifically to my region of Maluti. In my region I discovered that our arable land is tilled only during the mealie-growing season. It appears to me that the people there cannot get sufficient mealies to support themselves and as a result they have to buy mealies from the shops continually. We have discovered that the winter season is not used for planting and that is a loss because we get no crops in winter. I would request the hon. Minister to employ these agricultural officers to establish some organization which will encourage people to use better farming methods. I do not know what to call these organizations, but I think they are co-operative societies. It is my firm belief that if the agricultural officer in my region could form these cooperatives and encourage the people, they would then be able to buy farming necessities at a cheaper rate. It is my opinion that if all these improvements are carried out the economy of the country will improve. It is unbecoming for me to say this because it would appear that I am being cross, but I wish to say I am not blaming anybody. I say these agricultural officers must get instructions from their department in this connection I am loath to repeat what has been mentioned bp previous speakers, that these officers enjoy roast hens and cocks and that they neglect their work, but that is why I request the department to see that they do their work properly. Mr Chairman, we are not indulging in this House in saying bad things about the demonstrators, but as residents in those areas we see these things and must mention them so that these officers can be pulled up. The hon. Minister and his department do not know what is happening in those areas because they are in their offices and the demonstrators are working out in the districts . It is our duty, as we are in this House, to point out all the mistakes that are committed outside by these officers. When I speak in this manner I do not suggest that they must be sacked. All I am suggesting is that they must be warned and encouraged to work hard. Here is another point, Mr Chairman, in 187

volved himself in the administrative evolution of the Transkei. By that time the Pondoland General Council was already in operation and I am sure that he must have taken a prominent part in bringing about unity between the Pondoland Council and the Transkeian Territories General Council, to establish what was known as the United Transkeian Territories General Council. In other words, we can rightly say that the constitution of the UTTGC must have had the influence of the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Paramount Chief Victor Poto. In 1936 when the Union Government passed the 1936 legislation and provided for the establishment of the Natives' Representative Council, Paramount Chief Victor Poto was nominated by the Governor-General as a member of that body. It is in the debates of this Council that we find the statesmanship of Paramount Chief Victor Poto. I managed to read the verbatim reports of this Council and was in a position to assess what contribution the said Paramount Chief made in the deliberations of that Council. In 1957 Paramount Chief Victor Poto made a very dynamic speech in this House in his welcome to the then Minister of Native Affairs, Dr. H. F. Verwoerd. It was just after this House had been constituted a Territorial Authority. I have no doubt that the speech that he made on that occasion must have influenced the Union Government (as it was at the time) to pass the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act 1959, hence the establishment of this Chamber in 1963. As Leader of the Opposition, Paramount Chief Victor Poto stood for his principles and because we knew his historical background we respected him for his principles. He made a very valuable contribution to the debates in this House and the constructive criticisms which he made to the Governement assisted the Governement in carrying out its administrative machinery. For that he has earned the respect of everbody who heard him speak in this House. Mr Chairman, as I have said, Paramount Chief Victor Poto was a ruler for longer than any other chief or paramount chief in these territories and during that period he set an example for all the chiefs, not only in the Transkei but in the whole of South Africa, as a diplomat and a humble man who respected even the humblest of his subjects. For that the whole of the Transkei and the whole of the South Africa should mourn his death. He has left us at a very important time in the political history of the Transkei. Although not a member of the recess committee I am sure that all of us would go and drink in the wealth of his knowledge in shaping the future of our motherland. The Cabinet has decided to have a state funeral for Paramount Chief Victor Poto and I am sure that he deserves that, and I am sure the members of this House will agree with the sabinet that Paramount Chief Victor Poto deserves a state funeral. To his family we say that Paramount Chief Victor Poto has had his full innings and they should allow him to rest in peace. We hope, Sir, that your Secretary will convey these expressions of condolence to the family of the deceased. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the expressions of condolence to the family of the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto, and to endorse fully the words of tribute that have flowed from the heart of the hon, the Chief Minister. You will bear with me, for the occasion is a very sad one for me, for I knew him as my leader, I stepped into his shoes and I knew him as a father and a senior personal friend. When the mantle of leadership dropped

about new stock being introduced. I have already said I shall not speak at length. I thank you, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress.

ANNOUNCEMENT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would crave your indulgence to make a short statement. Mr Chairman and hon. members, it has been brought to my notice by the staff of my department that there was an unpleasant remark in yesterday's discussion. Unfortunately it was from the Chairman, but I wish to inform this House that that statement in connexion with actions of some of the departmental staff in the field at Lambasi having something to do with African women, with the result of having Coloured off-spring, I feel is very damaging to relations in my department, particularly because the matter has not been investigated and I somehow have the idea that there cannot be much truth in the statement. I wish publicly to refute that statement and I wish that to be known. If there is anything in that investigations will be made. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 16th April 1974. TUESDAY, 16TH APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is with the deepest sorrow that I have to announce this morning the death of the hon. the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto on Thursday last week. In doing so, Sir, I wish you to allow me and this House to pay tribute at this stage to the hon. member. You have no item on the agenda for obituaries, and I think this should be the appropriate time for it. Mr K. M. GUZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. OBITUARY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as I have already said, I am sure that the whole world, the whole of South Africa and the Transkei in particular must have been shocked to hear over the radio of the passing of what we term (including the Opposition members) the "doyen of the Transkei", Paramount Chief Victor Poto. He is one of the few traditional leaders who has held this position of chieftainship for such a long period. Born on 1st August 1898 the Paramount Chief grew up under the influence of his father, who was then Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, and the Princess of the Tembus, Mangangelizwe. As was traditional with all chiefs at the time, they had implicit faith in missionary upbringing and as a result the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Bokleni Ndamase, took his child to the Rev. Barrett. This missionary control, this missionary upbringing could be depicted in the very personality of the Paramount Chief who has just left us. He was a man of Christian principles, held himself with dignity, humble, a man of integrity, and Paramount Chief Victor Poto had the love of everybody that he met. If we were to recount his contribution to the politics of South Africa as a whole I think we would take the whole of this morning and even this afternoon. Suffice it to say that since he was installed in 1918 as Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Paramount Chief Victor Poto in188

pay tribute to a man who was almost Christlike in everything he did? A man whose royal personality was without arrogance and conceit? If he is dead because we cannot see him with our earthly eyes, let us know that Paramount Chief Victor Poto lives in the things he stood for. Let us remember him by honouring the things he stood for. Man can be better men if they set their pattern on Chief Victor Poto's life, for he stood for the qualities that never die, that know no tie. He was indeed the salt of the earth that gave taste to humanity. May his soul rest in peace. Paramount Chief Victor Poto is dead - long live his memory. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion was carried, the members standing as a mark of respect to the late Paramount Chief.

on my shoulders he was there to adjust it to size, and what I have done I owe to him. I do not wish to repeat his achievements which have been listed by the hon. the Chief Minister in a most able manner. May I be allowed to say how I reacted to him and how other people reacted to him. This man who stood head and shoulders above everybody else, reaching to the skies, could look down and observe the movements of an ant. A colossus politically and administratively, he became the source of inspiration and the source of guidance to all those who came into close contact with him in all walks of life. First and foremost this was a dedicated Christian. As a member of the Methodist Church of South Africa he served that faith as a circuit steward in the Marubeni Circuit. How come that a Paramount Chief should be willing to be the servant of the people in his church? Are we not justified in saying that his greatness lay in the humility of his heart and soul? During his reign over Western Pondoland Christianity flourished to such an extent that the Pondos were tamed into docile people. This man had a great compassion for man. He loved all persons high and low, black and white, rich and poor. His name was a byword in every household, in every chamber of discussion, no matter what subject was before the people. This man had become an international figure. How many of us did remember when we spoke of Paramount Chief Victor Poto that he was indeed Paramount Chief Victor Poto Ndamase? His surname dropped out of use and he became the man for the people living in South Africa, because Nyandeni could not contain him. He was larger than Nyandeni, larger than the Transkei, bigger than South Africa. This great man was an honest man. You never caught Chief Victor Poto on anything. What he said was what he believed in and what his convictions made him believe in, and for that reason he was a fearless debater with a mind that was clear and not befogged by side issues. He had the courage of his convictions so that as he spoke he never looked over his shoulder for fear of enemies. Because he was honest he had the courage of his convictions. He led a life which was disciplined. How often do we find men as great as he was crumble away early in life because they lack the quality of selfdiscipline. His position brought him great gifts and many and divers gifts, but his self-discipline brought him to an age of over threescore years and ten. This man was born a gentleman, lived the life of a gentleman and died a gentleman. Whoever complained that Paramount Chief Victor Poto had walked past him without a greeting, without a smile, without an enquiry after one's health? He had time for everybody he had time for every situation. Having gone to school in various institutions, he remained still rooted in Pondoland. Very carly in his career the Native Appeal Court realised that Chief Poto was the fountain of all Pondo law and custom and it was because of his clear understanding of Pondo law and custom that he was able to unravel the problem of succession to the Paramountcy of Eastern Pondoland Probably because of this Paramount Chief Victor Poto was probably amongst the first chiefs to be given the power to exercise criminal and civil jurisdiction over his subjects. Do we say he was a Pondo? Yes, but he spoke perfect Xhosa. He had an immense vocabulary and knew how to choose his words to express clearly and precisely the finer issues of sentiment and thought. He was amongst the first to accept soil conservation as a policy for his whole region, and his people today stand to thank him for his early wisdom. How can we

ANNOUNCEMENTS

CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, before we go on to the next item I just want to move that this House excuses the hon. members for Nyanda region for their absence until after the funeral. They form part of the family which is at present in mourning. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has just informed me that he has also been scheduled to perform certain duties relating to the funeral and if he should be absent from the Chamber it should be known that he has gone out to make the preparations . MINISTER OF HEALTH : Seconded, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. QUESTIONS QUESTION No. 9. Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Chief Minister: "When a Headman unjustifiably refuses to take deserving cases to their Tribal Authority to be recommended for old age and disability grants what should such applicants do in the circumstances, as they cannot go to the Magistrate on their own, more so without the relevant documents from the Tribal Authority?" REPLY: "I do not see any difficulty in the matter raised by the questioner. Prospective applicants for the social benefits mentioned should, in those cases where they feel that a headman does not give them satisfaction, themselves proceed to the tribal authority offices to lodge a complaint. If this does not avail, they are free to air their grievances to the Magistrate who, I am sure will instruct the headman to carry out his duty. If the headman fails to comply, he will expose himself to a charge of misconduct in terms of the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965." QUESTION No. 10. Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education: "Owing to the acute shortage of Sotho Lady Teachers in Mt. Fletcher, would your Department consider favourably as a matter of urgency, the question of appointing permanently the married lady teachers already in temporary employment and also invite applications from other suitbaly qualified married Sotho women to meet the said plight?" REPLY: "If there is in fact an acute shortage of Sotho female teachers, it is difficult to appreciate how the problem can be overcome by simply converting a temporary appointment to a permanent appointment, particularly when it is pleaded that this be done in respect of married female teachers already in temporary employment. In other words, the employment of these teachers on a permanent rather than a temporary basis cannot affect the issue as the number of posts filled will remain the same. 189

hon. members, I will start with observations made by the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr. Jafta. He wanted to know what the department has done to improve agriculture during the last ten years. I want to tell him that it provided funds to start co-operative societies to enable farmers to get seed, fertilizers, breeding stock, etc. I am also fortunate to say that he is a director of one of these co-operatives. The department has successfully demonstrated the economic value of products like tea, coffee, phormium tenax, which must be grown extensively if our economy is to improve. It has created job opportunities in forests and plantations. He complains that farmers are always pleading excuses for failure of crops due to drought and floods, but these are encountered everywhere by farmers all over the world. Fortunately the Transkei farmers hardly ever get subsidies and assistance. When their crops fail they look for work in the labour centres. Coming now to what the hon. member for Lusikisiki, Mr. Ndzumo, remarked about. He listed that they require clinics at the Lambasi complex, schools and a graveyard. He said that the former Minister had promised to grant the people at Lambasi a graveyard. Regarding the question of graveyards in government land I would like to tell him that everything will be done to assist those people who are unable to get grave sites in nearby locations. It is not very easy to make any promises regarding matters like clinics and schools in places of work but I wish to tell him that everything will be done to get these people some assistance, for we are interested to see that the children of those people get some education and I hope that the Department of Health will look into the matter of clinics. Regarding the very unfortunate matter he referred to the House of Coloured children being produced in the area, I want to state categorically that there are ever so many Coloureds in the district of Lusikisiki, so it is difficult to state fully that these would be the children from the employees. Mr C. DIKO : You must investigate the matter first. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : However, I wish to say that if there is any truth in what he said, the matter will be investigated. Regarding the request for a bridge over the Magwa stream the matter will be investigated. There was a reference by the hon. member for Cofimvaba, Chief M. Matanzima, who stated that the agricultural officers do not help them in any way. I am certain that if a proper approach was made to the agricultural officers every assistance would be rendered to the community. We were also informed that the agricultural officers in charge of the irrigation schemes were acting like chiefs. Naturally, if one is placed in charge and people do not want to obey instructions, he must take the initiative of informing the people what to do. He also complained that there are not many farmers from whom stock can be purchased. I want to assure hon. members that our aim is to improve the condition and the number and quality of the stock in the Transkei. I want to assure hon. members that personally I am sympathetic to farmers purchasing livestock. It is the aim of the department to get the country on its feet with its stock, and also agriculturally. It is gratifying to learn from the hon, member that at the irrigation scheme at Qamata they grow a lot of vegetables, but he stated they are short of markets. I think the reason is that most people from outside the Transkei do not know that there are vegetables in sufficient quantities. I think the people should organize and get transport to get their produce to markets. He also complained of the shortage of baling machines. I want to assure the hon. member that everything has been done to im-

Regarding vacancies which may still exist, I would point out that my Department has never objected to employing married women where males or single females are not available and there is no reason, therefore, why this should not have been done in Mt. Fletcher. I must add, however, that married females can only be appointed in a temporary capacity as my Department is obliged to find posts for hundreds of teacher trainees who have been trained at considerable expense each year and also for trained teachers whose careers have not been interrupted by marriage or retirement."' APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sits in committee to consider the Appropriation Bill, MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to.

House in Committee The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was resumed. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon, members, first of all I want to thank the hon. members who contributed to the discussions on this vote. I must also express appreciation for the concern noticeable from the speeches delivered by most of the hon. members regarding the position of our farming activities. We are all agreed that all is not well and we must be under no illusion, neither must we deceive ourselves. The position is serious particularly so as the country is on the threshold of independence. An independent country that is not able to feed itself is bound to end up in chaos and destruction . I want to assure hon, members that we are exerting every nerve to find a solution to the problem of the low yields of our agricultural activities. Initially priority was given to orderly development of the settlement of communities, but from now on the emphasis will be on high production of our staple food. I believe it can be done. People and scientists alike have said that the Transkei is one of the richest farming lands in the Republic. I do not wish to say that I do not share their ideas. Outwardly, of course, the country looks pleasing to the eye, particularly after good rains, but hand in hand with the unpredictable rainfall we have recurring droughts and hailstones which wipe out complete crops. Be that as it may, I want to repeat that our solution lies in our own hands by dedicating ourselves to our work. I have always thought and wondered why it is that people can work so hard enriching their employers and yet fail completely in working for themselves. It is a curse just like that found in Scripture where the Moabites deceived the Israelites, saying: "Look at our bread, it is all crumbs and it is stale and our clothes and shoes are torn because we come from a far country"; and yet they came from just under ten kilometers away. Then they were condemned to serve as slaves hewers of wood and drawers of water. But this was in Palestine, and there is no proximity yet the similarity is there in that our people are loath to work hard for their own account and benefit. The message therefore, to all your constituents is that they must work hard and help themselves, otherwise we will be bound to take the land and hand it over to syndicates and corporations who will produce our food, while those who are not able to work will be employed and they will be paid for their labour. This is no empty threat, it will become real in the near future. With reference to remarks made by some of the

190

prove the conditions at Qamata. I do not think I will be able to reply to individual members individually, because it would take too long, but I wish to make these remarks. Regarding the question of stock inspectors, stock inspectors are not trained veterinarians. They cannot be expected to diagnose and treat diseases. In any case, they would not be allowed to do so in terms of the Veterinary Act. The stock inspectors' main work is to apply the Stock Diseases Act and to apply the policy of the department with regard to the prevention of stock diseases. Regarding the question of permits, ever since the permit system has been in force in the Transkei the dipping staff has issued permits within the districts. With regard to moving stock from one district to 0 another, the dipping foreman has never been allowed to issue permits. Where areas have been planned, however, the agricultural officer must give permission for the introduction of stock into those areas. The dipping staff cannot possibly have the knowledge or information to be able to decide on these permits. Regarding the payment of compensation on displaced persons in rehabilitated areas, the procedure is as follows: Paying of compensation depends on the decision ofthe magistrate. He may decide to pay when the person has been moved completely; he may make partial or full payment when roof, windows and doors have been removed from the original building; he may pay 50% of the amount due to assist the person to move and the balance after removal. Sometimes payment is made when the building reaches window height. The tariff of payment is as follows : For round huts, diameter 10 ft., the compensation is R5. (Interjections) There are always conditions upon which they work, whether the house is in good condition or in a dilapidated condition. That is according to the condition, hon. members. Mr C. DIKO: In good condition? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In good condition, of course, it goes according to size. It may be R16. That depends more or less on the condition, and it has been laid down by the department. It is different, of course, when we come to houses which have been built under corrugated iron. The compensation there goes according to a formula and that rests with the agricultural officers who go inspecting houses and huts, and also on the decision of the magistrate. I am aware, Mr. Chairman, that most of the hon. members are not satisfied with the conditions. Well, personally you will appreciate the fact that I am new in the department and therefore cannot make any promises at the present moment. I feel the matter should be thoroughly investigated. Mr DIKO: What do you pay according to that formula?

that most of the members complain that some areas have been rehabilitated for a very long time and no water has been provided for them, but I am certain some of these requests have not been diverted to the Engineering Department. You can rest assured that the department is doing all it can to provide water. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister has moved that Vote 5 be adopted and there is an amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary. I shall first put the amendment. Amendment put and negatived. The sum of R14 025 000 under Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was passed to stand part of the schedule. The Assembly adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION POLICY SPEECH : MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly Despite the fact that my Department is still being severely handicapped by the lack of Professional and Senior Technical staff in all branches of its activities, especially in its Roads Branch, and the heavy summer rainfall experienced during the last year, my Department has again been able to perform its multitude of duties successfully and will continue its programme of road building and maintenance as well as the construction and maintenance of buildings and the provision of Transport Services . Although I have occupied the portfolio of Minister of Roads and Works for a comparatively short period, I will do my utmost to maintain the high standards envisaged by my Department. The Traffic Control Division is almost fully operational and is rendering invaluable service in enforcing road safety, checking on the roadworthiness of motor vehicles and ensuring that the requirements of the department's Local Road Transportation Board are complied with. "Spot Maps" pinpointing the location of road traffic accidents on rural roads in the Transkei are in full operation. The patrols of the traffic force are planned according to the data obtained from the "spot maps ". During the period 1st April to 31st December, 1973, 681 accidents occurred on rural roads in the Transkei 61 accidents were fatal, resulting in 81 deaths. In a total of 186 accidents 401 persons were injured. Animals on roads resulted in a further 69 accidents. These statistics are indeed alarming and it will be the duty of the newly formed traffic force to make every endeavour to prevent the slaughter that is taking place on our roads. The statistics quoted reflect that stray animals on the roads are a menace and it will be the traffic force's duty to eliminate this menace as much as possible. And now, Mr. Chairman, it is my privilege to proceed with the outlining of the proposed activities of my department for the coming year. Let me commence by inviting attention to the anticipated overall increase in my department's vote of R1 952 000 - from R9 952 000 for the 1973/74 financial year to R11 904 000 for the 1974/75 financial year. The increase can be attributed largely to purchasing of additional road construction machinery, the construction of special roads, the additional activities brought about by the taking over of all Government Hospital buildings, clinics etc., which became effective from the 1st April 1973 throughout the Transkei.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, hon. members, I think this is all I can say at the present moment. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Would you say something about water services, please. You have skipped that. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The department is doing all it can to make water available to communities, but hon, members will appreciate that the Transkei is so wide that it cannot be all served at one and the same time. I think the hon. members sometimes skip the usual way of approaching the agricultural officers with their requests for their respective areas, who then make representations to the department and particularly to the Engineering Department. I am certain 191

Subhead D. Printing, Advertisements and Publications. An increase of R5 900 is provided and is mainly attributed to the printing of forms, acts, and regulations pertaining to the Traffic Control Division. Subhead E. Miscellaneous Expenses. The increase of R5 800 in the estimates under this subhead is necessary to cover increased expenditure on protective clothing for technicians and the artisans staff, uniforms for Traffic Officers and to meet increased Third Party Insurance premiums.

Subhead A. Salaries, Wages and Allowances. An amount of R779 700 is required under this subhead. The establishment of my department has continued to expand since the last session of the Legislative Assembly and 95 additional posts have been created. It is with pleasure that I have to report that there are 10 officers who are being trained as Technicians. Of this number, 2 have completed the theoretical course and are now embarked on their practical training; 3 students are doing their final year; three their second year and the remaining 2 are doing their first year. The two Assistant Engineers who completed their course last year are still undergoing practical training with reputable firms of Consulting Engineers in order to become registered as Professional Engineers. The two employees attached to the plumbing section who were sent to Edendale Technical College to train as Sewerage and Water Purification Works operators have this year been sent to Zwelitsha where facilities exist for the six months' practical training required. On the 30th July 1973, the first group of 15 apprentice Electricians were sent to the Technical College, Umtata, for theoretical studies and at the close of the year passed their examinations. They are now back with the Department for six months' practical training. This year 18 additional apprentice Electricians have been taken on.

Subhead F. Furniture, Safes and Appliances. An amount of R56 000 is provided for this year for this service. Subhead G. Roads and Bridges. Good progress was made with major repairs to most of the main roads especially in the Pondoland area the main road between Pakade and Emagusheni ; Flagstaff and Lusikisiki to Port St. Johns has been completely re-gravelled. The portion between Emagusheni and Bizana has also been completed with major regravelling still being carried out on the section between Bizana and Port Edward. All main and secondary roads have been attended to. As is the case in the rest of the Republic, the adverse climatic conditions during the last quarter have played havoc with the Transkei road system and my department's road organisation is doing its utmost to effect repairs. Traffic counting on the more important roads is constantly carried out in order that reconstruction and replacement of wearing surfaces can be planned timeously. Despite the shortage of trained technical staff good progress is being maintained with bridge construction. The prospect of permanent surfacing to black-top standards of the Pakade - Emagusheni road will be taking a step further and it is hoped to complete the final planning up to tender stage during the 1974/75 financial year . A start will also be made during 1974/75 of reconstructing a special road in the Umzimkulu district from Langgewacht to Singisi Siding, which is required for the exploitation of the Glengarry plantations. From the 1st April the functions of providing internal forestry plantation roads has been transferred to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry as that department is in a better position to supervise this work. The total amount provided for under this subhead is R3 439 500 which represents an increase of R1 437 500 over the amount approved for the 1973/74 financial year. Subhead H. Plant, Machinery, Equipment and Tools. The total amount estimated for this year is R821 000 an increase of R206 000 in comparison with the previous financial year. This amount will be utilised to replace machinery and tools which have become unserviceable through wear and tear, and to purchase additional plant and machinery to cope with the ever increasing road building activities including assistance to Tribal Authorities.

The training of diesel mechanic apprentices has continued and 12 apprentices were sent for intensive study to the Technical College for the National Technical Certificate Part I. Seven of these apprentices passed the course after practical training and will be sent to the Technical College for the N.T.C. Part II. 6 apprentices have assumed duty this year (1974) and will also receive further technical training at the Colleges. The expansion of the activities of the Department has necessitated an increase in the strength of the establishment by the following additional posts:1. 1 post of Principal Clerk. 2. 1 post of Senior Clerk. 3. 4 posts of Clerks Grade II.

4. 7 posts of Storekeepers Grade I. 5. 3 posts of Storekeepers Grade II. 6. 24 posts of workman, and 7. 56 posts of semi-skilled labourers. The following promotions in the different grades have been effected since the last session of the Legislative Assembly:1. 2 Senior Clerks to the rank of Principal Clerk. 2. 3 Clerks Grade I to Senior Clerks. 3. 7 Clerks Grade II to Clerks Grade I. Subhead B. Subsistence and Transport. An increase of R39 000 is provided for under this subhead from R268 500 to R307 500. This subhead provides for three items namely: (a) Subsistence. (b) Motor Transport, and (c) General Transport. The increased expenditure is mainly due to the increase in the number of vehicles in use over that of

Subhead J. Building Services: Major Works. 71 Secondary school classrooms and various Laboratories, Domestic Science and Administrative blocks were completed during the 1973/74 financial year. The Butterworth Teachers ' Training College, Maluti High and Training School as well as the St. Johns College (Hostel Complex), were completed , providing accommodation for a total of 270 girls and 440 boys at the hostels. The Administrative Complex was completed and my department together with the Departments of

previous years. Subhead C. Postal, Telegraph and Telephone Services. An increase of R17 900 is provided under this subhead - from R26 500 to R44 400. The increase is due mainly to the extension of the P.A.B.X. telephone system to the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance, the Department of Agriculture and Forestry and the Department of Health. 192

Interior and Education, took occupation during July last year. An amount of R2 222 200 appears on this year's estimates. The amount is virtually the same as last year and differs by only R207 800. The all-important Qamata Irrigation Scheme housing, offices and stores project has progressed quicker than anticipated and should be completed by the end of this year. The accommodation project for workers employed at the Lambasi Coffee and Tea project at Lusikisiki, is to be re-planned and will be commenced with during the latter part of the 1974/75 financial year.

of Transport, an increase of over 200 units was involved. The increased amount estimated for is required to meet the rapidly rising cost of spares and fuel as well as additional replacements brought about by the fast increase in the number of vehicles on charge. In view of the present shortage of fuel every department's full co-operation in the campaign to conserve fuel is requested. My department will continue to consider ways and means of saving fuel without affecting productivity. Subhead P. Planning and Development of Townships. The amount provided for under this subhead is R200 300 and will be utilised in respect of housing and the supply of water to townships. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members, I wish to thank the staff of my department for their devoted services. Without their help the achievements attained during the past financial year would not have been possible. And now, Mr. Chairman, and Honourable Members, I trust that I have clearly outlined the activities of my department for the ensuing financial year and I now move the adoption of Vote 6 of the estimates. MINISTER OF HEALTH: I second, Mr. Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is an amendment to this vote by the hon. Mr. Zibi. Whilst we are dealing with comments on the speech, the hon. member will also move the amendment.

Subhead K. Building Services: Minor Works and Alterations, 165 Classrooms and various Administrative blocks were provided under the R1 900 per classroom/Administrative block scheme during the 1973/74 financial year. The previous grant of R1 600 per classroom and R1 080 for the Administrative block was increased to R1 900 with effect from 1st June last year, due to the substantial increase in the cost of building materials and wages. Although not so many classrooms were provided last financial year as the 1972/73 year when 242 were completed, the Transkeian Contractors are still showing good progress. The decrease in the number of completed classrooms is, to a certain extent, due to the large number of schools almost completed by the 31st March, 1974, but not taken over as yet. It must also be borne in mind that in addition 30 classrooms at various schools (in terms of the 12 year Educational Structure) were commenced with by the Transkeian Contractors as well as a number of Secondary Schools which the Departmental Works Group could not undertake due to pressure of work. Inclement weather as well as the shortage of building materials adversely affected the progress on most of the projects undertaken by Contractors or departmentally during the past financial year. An amount of R956 000 is provided under item 2 of this subhead. An increase of R556 000. This substantial increase is due largely to the provision of classrooms in terms of the new 12 year Educational Structure. The provision for these classrooms is R500 000 of which R240 000 is in respect of temporary classrooms to be erected by the Community. There is also a substantial increase in the volume of new minor works for the Departments of Justice and Health in respect of Prisons and Hospitals, respectively. Subhead L. General Maintenance Provision is made for an increase of R48 000 which is due to the increased volume of maintenance work at hospitals.

CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, with all due respect to you, Sir, I ask that my name should be subsituted for that of the hon. Mr Zibi as the mover of the amendment. Agreed to. CHIEF MAJEKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment:"That Vote 6, subhead (1), in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R5 000." As far as the Transkei is concerned the road question is of great importance. I heard the hon. Minister when he stated there is a shortage of experts as far as this department is concerned. He further stated that in spite of this shortage the work is continuing satisfactorily. As a matter of fact, we have also observed that there is this handicap in regard to the lack of skilled men, but I note that suitable arrangements are being made in this connection. However, I wish to inform the hon. Minister and his department that the condition of roads in the Transkei is deplorable. I appreciate the remarks contained in paragraph 2 of the speech, that as he is new to the work he will do his best to improve conditions. We commend his remarks in regard to the traffic officers and we hope they will perform their duties satisfactorily. I wish to lay stress on the menace of stray animals on the roads. In order to save lives on the roads we suggest this department should take very strict steps to ensure that livestock is kept off the roads. We would appreciate it if all the roads were patrolled and this should not be confined to the main roads. Byroads should also be patrolled in the same way as they do in the Ciskei. Today there are many vehicles on the roads. If the animals are allowed to stray on the roads, which are often misty and sometimes wet, many lives may be lost. As I have already said, the roads in the Transkei are in a bad condition and this should not be taken lightly. It is necessary for this department to expedite ways and means of putting the roads into good condition. I remember a former Minister stating that it is not easy to construct roads during periods of drought. This has

Subhead M. Rents, Rates, Water, Electricity and Municipal Services. The amount provided, namely R230 000 reflects no change on last year. Subhead N. Maintenance and Repair of Plant, Machinery, Equipment and Tools. An amount of R423 000 is provided for under this subhead for the repair and maintenance of road plant and equipment. Subhead O. Government Motor Transport. The amount provided for under this subhead is R1 586 000 which means an increase of R56 000 over the amount provided for the 1973/74 financial year. The previous financial year saw a rapid increase in the number of vehicles under this section's control. Including the vehicles taken over from the Department 193

been a very wet season and you will notice that the roads are in a worse state than before. (Laughter) Because of these statements a doubt is created as to whether this present Minister will in fact do anything about the roads. It should be noted that in all the districts the roads are in a very bad state. Yes, Tsomo too. As you have just heard hon. members asking me to name all their districts, you will realise that what I state is the truth, and these roads should be seen to. Pressure should be exerted on the road gangs to perform their duties properly. It is a general complaint in connection with the roads, It should be noted that even where the roads have been repaired there are still a number of potholes. You will observe that when they repair the roads they use a grader which simply removes the topsoil to cover all the portions of the road which have been washed out. Immediately, because of the traffic on the roads, the surface becomes as bad as it was before. As a matter of fact, if there has been some grading of the road the grader simply removes the gravel and then if it rains the surface becomes very muddy. The hon. Minister should not doubt what I say because I am serious about it. Even if the graders are used there should be someone on the road to fill up the potholes. A great number of labourers should be employed on the roads so that when the roller has been used the soil on the surface is hardened, and in that way it will remain in good condition for a long time. As the roller rolls over the road, the labourers should fill all the potholes with gravel and then the surface will remain strong. There is a tendency for the roads in the Transkei to be made very narrow, but today there are big buses which use all these roads. As a result, on all the bends you will find it difficult to manoeuvre buses and cars. I am not going to attach any blame to the hon. Minister, but I would put the blame on the wet season. I must mention some of the administrative areas where the roads are very bad, but that does not mean that conditions are any better in other areas which I do not mention. You know there are many mountainous areas in the Transkei.

The construction of many bridges has been delayed because of the lack of technicians, but nevertheless we hope that in a year or two these skilled technicians will be available. Bridges can be very dangerous if not well constructed and it is our desire that the Department of Roads and Works should pay close attention to bridges. Recently at Xalanga we sustained grave danger because the Lower Lafuta bridge there is low and narrow and there are no parapets which could direct people when the river is in flood. I am sure if there were pillars to guide the motorists, these accidents would not occur. The Tsomo River is very wide and the ridge is so narrow that when a lorry passes over the bridge the wheels touch the sides of the bridge. If that bridge were just a little wider vehicles could pass over safely. A lorry recently went over the side of that bridge and even if the driver had been able to control the lorry it would have been no use because as soon as the lorry touched one side it touched the other side and what happened could not be avoided . I must insist that these bridges are very dangerous to traffic. On the Ncora River there is a very dangerous bridge, the Mqwashu Bridge, and when you are going to cross this birdge at night the beams of your headlamps shine across the dip to the other side so that you cannot see the bridge. It appears that the bridge is in a dip and as a result the lights shine across the river, obscuring the bridge beneath. The regional authority has done all in its power to persuade the department to see to that because it is on the main road which is extensively used by traffic. We request the department, as members of the regional authority, to please repair this road. There is a bridge outside Cala which is in a bad state of repair. Two cars have incurred accidents there because the bridge itself is in such a bad state that the cars lose control and go right over the bridge. As I have mentioned these matters and as there is an increase in the vote, we ask the hon. Minister to please see to these bridges. On the road from Cala to Papasi there is a huge stone obstructing the road, and if this stone is not removed it will cause accidents. We have requested the Department of Roads to see that that stone is removed or dynamited but they tell us they have no means of doing this. In other words, portion of the cliff fell on to the road,

Mr M. J. SIGWELA: Mr. Chairman an hon, members, I have listened with much interest to the address by the hon. Minister of Roads this afternoon. It has become clear from his speech that he has foresight of what is happening in the Transkei. What he has mentioned here is known to all the members here, and even to the general public. The rain has been abundant9 so much so that we have been given more rain than we asked for by Providence. That has been the reason for all our roads being extremely eroded. I entertain a hope, seeing that there has been a larger amount in the vote, that this will enable the department to repair the roads. I also observe that the greatest hindrance to the progress of work in the Department of Roads and Works is the lack of machinery. As a result of this lack of machinery the roads in some of extremely the administrative areas have become eroded. Whenever we make requests for these roads to be repaired the reply is that there is no machinery for this purpose. They also tell us that some of the machines have gone for repair, but they never return from the workshops. The roads therefore continue to be eroded . We also noticed from the policy speech that more money has been voted which will enable the department to purchase more machinery. We have noticed that another difficulty is the lack of sufficient skilled workers. As a result, even minor repairs to the roads could not be undertaken for lack of skilled workers.

We are pleased to observe that there have been some promotions in the department, but my information is that the trainees who are to become technicians and so on are too few in number. It is our wish that our youth should apply for these courses in the Technical College. We hope that the building of schools will be accelerated seeing there is this subsidy of R1 900 per classroom. The people are quite willing to contribute R200 extra in order to make up the necessary amount. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: Mr Chairman, I was still on the subject of the mountainous areas such as Nqhayi in Qumbu district which borders on Mount Fletcher. That area has a population of close on 6 000. What I wish to bring to your notice is that right through this year, particularly during the rainy period that area has been marooned and there is no access to it. Chiefs and people going to town in Qumbu have to travel very long distances and they wear blankets. They do so in order to catch buses, but that is a main road joining Qumbu and Katkop. The road from Hlangalane to Mncuncuzo River is in a very bad state and causes a great deal of difficulty. This is a very long stretch in mountainous country which is covered with bushes, and I request that attention should be given to that portion of the road. In the east there is Kubusi administrative area and Lower

194

Nxaxa. People in those areas are also marooned in rainy weather. We request that a road should be constructed there. We are informed that the road there has been planned, but so far the road has not been built. We therefore ask that construction of the road should be undertaken. There is a road from Qumbu to Mount Frere which is tarred and from the tarred road through Sulenkama there is a main road which goes right up to Katkop on the border. I have already mentioned the fact that those roads are narrow, but what is put on those roads is crushed stone. It is not gravel. It is particularly bad as you near the hospital at Sulenkama. There is lose stone there which causes cars to

necting Emjanyana and the neighbouring location, because the absence of a bridge there militates against the residents of these surrounding administrative areas from getting to Emjanyana TB Hospital. They have to go via Clarkebury. For example, one patient is instructed to move from Emjanyana Hospital to All Saints, but that person cannot cross the Mgwali River and he has to go right round. We therefore appeal to you that this bridge should be constructed over the Mgwali River. There is an old road which is now out of use branching from a road to Clarkebury which goes straight to the drift where we require this bridge, and then there is a road across the bridge leading straight to Emjanyana. We are unable to use this road on account of the fact that there is no bridge. It imposes a lot of difficulty on people who have to send their patients either from Emjanyana to All Saints or from All Saints to Emjanyana. They have to use ox-drawn vehicles to cross. The state of the health of the patient may not allow him to be transported by animal-drawn transport. In some cases the patient has to see to his medication and may not have the necessary funds to pay extra to go from Emjanyana to All Saints or vice versa. Again, I will revert to the road between Philipsdale to Debera administrative area. It is a distance of 200 yards from the Philipsdale store to a quarry where there is gravel. From that quarry one travels one mile to another quarry which could be used for road repairs. Again, from there it is a quarter of a mile to a place called Tywina Poort. From Tywina Poort where there is a quarry it is only two miles to the top of Debera administrative area where there is another quarry. It boils down to this ― that a lorry which is

dry-skid. Mr Chairman, our request is that the Roads Department should have heavy rollers so that each region is supplied with one. Some soil should be added to this crushed stone and the road rolled properly thereafter to form a firm surface. I am sure that such a process would last a long time so that constant repairs would not be necessary. West of Qumbu village there is a road leading to Lonsdale Bridge and from there the road goes to Tsolo and on to Mclear. That road has been forgotten and it is in a very bad state. It also reaches Shukunxa area in the Qumbu distrcit and all the administrative areas in that district use those roads. More often than not people are marooned in rainy weather . One hon. member mentioned the narrowness of some of the bridges. I would add to that and say that all the bridges in the Transkei are narrow and require attention. I will now make a few remarks in connexion with the construction of schools. I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to the fact that it is alleged that when the tribal authority has already completed its application for the construction of a school and when authority is being sought, that application is turned down by the Roads Department. It is stated that the Roads Department will say the money required for building such school is too little and the contractors should have demanded a larger amount. Where do you step in in such a case? If you do step in you should not just refuse to allow the construction but you should say instead that with the amount already paid construction should begin so that the additional amount can be raised later. If you have not heard about this, you will hear soon. As I am still on the question of roads there is a particular bridge which has caused the loss of many lives in the Transkei. I want to mention this Tsitsa Bridge, although I know that it is not under the control of your department, but nevertheless it is in the Transkei and it has killed many Transkeians and people from the Republic. Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is my wish to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works, but nevertheless, Sir, we must suggest corrections where these are necessary. As a new incumbent to this portfolio I shall not be very severe, but at the same time I should like to point out certain flaws. You must understand that when we place requests and complaints, we place matters which are a real hindrance to our people. I will give an example of a road from Philipsdale where you travel ten miles to a place called Debera and the road is completely out of repair. The road starts at Clarkebury, goes through Philipsdale and buses and other vehicular traffic no longer use that road. Where the road has been badly damaged is between Philipsdale and a bridge in the Debera adminstrative area. In spite of your having assumed duty within this short time, we ask you to at least grade that road in order to make it travellable. I made a request to your predecessor for a bridge to be constructed con-

employed in gravelling that road has only a short distance to travel before the road can be made travellable. I am particularly stressing the stretch from Philipsdale store to Debera administrative area. If one has to cross from Philipsdale to Debera you cross a river called Nkobango where there is no bridge but only flat stones which a car cannot cross. We would be met in our request if some pipes were placed there so that a car could cross. I will make a request which I have made constantly in this House for a bridge so that one can take a direct route from Emjanyana to All Saints. If a person is sick and has to go to Emjanyana Hospital, that person cannot go except through Clarkebury. Emjanyana is not far as the crow flies. The distance is in the route you have to take to get to Emjanyana. Please, hon. Minister, take note of this request. There is a road from Namagele administrative area to the Ntlunkulu plantation and there is a disused road there. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was still talking about the dangerous bridge over the Tsitsa River. We would that the Government should make strong representations to the Republican Government to see that something is done to that bridge over the Tsitsa River. The bridge is situated on a bend so that as you travel along in your car it is impossible to see oncoming traffic. On the other side of Qumbu there is another devil (I call them devils) . There is a bend there and it is difficult to turn your car round that bend. The river seems to have the effect of drawing cars towards it so that many of them land in the river. We know that that road does not fall under the Transkei Government, but we request that strong representations should be made to the Republican Government. The Trans-

195

to just past the Ministers' residences. At Nyandeni that afternoon there will be a service conducted by the Methodist Church of which he was a member, and the family will be given an opportunity to see the body, but the funeral will be on Sunday, 21st April, I presume at 9 a.m. I hope the members will attend this funeral. Then as Sunday is a holiday the regional authority of Nyandeni have decided to observe Monday as a public holiday for the Nyanda region and all the shops and business places will be closed in the three districts of Western Pondoland. In consultation with the Cabinet I have decided that Monday should also be regarded as a day of mourning for the Transkei as a whole and that the flags will be flown at halfmast from 12 noon to 1 p.m. and that all shops in the Transkei, including the Republican shops - that is, the shops in the towns - shall be closed from 12 noon and open at 2 p.m. All offices will also close and the Assembly will rise at 12 o'clock on Monday. The schools will also be closed for that period. I hope this will be observed right through the Transkei and that everybody will take notice of this announcement. This is done because of the position which the late Paramount Chief has held in the Transkei since he entered the administration of this country. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to make a statement in connexion with the position of stock and the recent heavy losses of stock incurred in the Transkei.

kei is a beautiful country and it has been praised for its beauty. There are some exceptionally beautiful places in the Transkei and those places should be improved so that they can be admired by tourists. If those areas are improved then this country will be regarded as one of the most cultured areas. I am reminded of the Tsitsa Falls, but there is no road leading to those falls. There is a certain administrative area known as Lalini, but there is no road whatsoever leading to that area. It is a matter of one or two miles from Lotana trading store to Tsitsa Falls and from the same store to Lalini area it is a negligible distance. There is also a road which leads from Gura store to Mr. Maqubela's store via Gura school. That school is under construction and it is about to be completed. Your department is constructing that school but there is no road leading to that school. We even went to the extent of making certain requests that a road should be constructed there when the hon. the Chief Minister was going to pay a visit. This department should pay greater attention to trading stores and schools. In order to achieve progress in the Transkei all motor vehicles should be able to drive as far as these schools and trading stations. It is a sad plight to find we have such a number of trading stores in the Transkei and yet there are no roads leading to them. Although schools are being constructed yet there are no roads leading to them. I request that this matter should be attended to and the people of the Transkei have a similar request. Though I only mention Qumbu, the same circumstances prevail in other districts of the Transkei such as Tsomo, Cofimvaba, Nqamakwe. I have every hope that if the roads are attended to the Transkei will enjoy a blissful life. The debate was adjourned.

Mr Chinn, manager of T.M.I. and Mr Turpin responsible for the auction services rendered by the T.M.I. , visited the Secretary this morning to express their alarm over the tremendous stock losses occuring at the moment. The extent of the losses can be be judged from the following figures supplied by them: During January the T.M.I. lost 16 head of cattle. During February they lost 39 head of cattle. During March they lost 106 head of cattle. Total: 161 head of cattle. Calculated at the low average price of R125 each it means that the T.M.I. has suffered a loss of R20 125 during the three months. Information obtained from a trader at Tombo revealed that during the past long weekend he purchased 96 hides. A trader a little lower down purchased 100 hides during the same period. During the period prior to the Easter weekend the trader bought 300 hides, i.e. average of 100 per week. Until recently it was the farmer and the buyers who suffered the losses. However, due to the risk attached to the purchase of infected stock, buyers are now becoming hesitant to buy with the result that prices drop and general interest in Transkeian stock dwindle. The situation is now hitting back at the farmers and, of course, the internal economy of the Transkei. The T.M.I. has built up the stock sales to a high level and thus created an excellent market for the Transkeian stockowner. These stock losses can deal the sales a crippling blow but the T.M.I. nevertheless wishes it made known that the sales will be held as scheduled. Farmers must however not blame the auctioneers for the drop in prices and the lack of interest from buyers. That is entirely due to the riskiness of purchasing cattle which may die. This matter has developed to this critical stage mainly because, in my opinion, farmers have neglected the proper and regular dipping of their cattle. I therefore again make an urgent appeal to Regional Authorities and stockowners to institute regular dipping. If

House Resumed

The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 17th April 1974. WEDNESDAY, 17th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, several members of this Assembly have requested that they should be excused for absence. I refer to the hon. member for Willowvale, Mr. Moses Dumalisile, who will be absent today and tomorrow as he is attending his uncle's funeral. The hon. member, Chief H. Z. Zulu of Butterworth, is having a tribal authority meeting today and ,together with the hon. member for Butterworth, Mr. W. S. Mbanga, will be away today. The hon. member for Kentani, Mr. H. D. Mlonyeni, will be away attending an official meeting in Kentani, and also the hon. the Minister of Education. I move that these members should be excused for their absence and should be paid their sessional allowances. Mr K. M. GUZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Another important announcement, Mr Chairman. The body of the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto will be transported from East London on Saturday, 20th April, and will go through Butterworth at 10 a.m. and is expected to be in Umtata at about 12 o'clock. It is hoped that the Transkeian public in Butterworth will await the body and line the streets as they go through, and also those in Umtata who have cars will meet the hearse and accompany it

196

it rains on the day of the scheduled dipping, stockowners must please not wait until the next scheduled dipping day but dip their cattle at the next suitable day for dipping. Stockowners must organise themselves in committees, if such committees do not exist, to take the initiative to protect their assets. The Veterinary Branch of my Department also undertakes to do its utmost to counteract the serious stock losses. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, in connexion with the announcement which has just been made by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, the matter is of such importance that I would like to meet the members of all the regional authorities who are members of this Assembly on Tuesday, 23rd April, in the lecture room at 9 a.m.

it will be very difficult to activate regional authorities in this respect in such a way as to save the stock of the public. CHIEF MINISTER: The Government is powerless. Mr GUZANA: Two weeks back I tabled a question relating to dipping along the coastal districts and we were advised that three districts along the coast had not been dipping for a considerable time. If the initial responsibility rests on the stockowners, I think the ultimate responsibility was placed squarely on the shoulders of the regional authority which failed to buy the chemicals necessary for dipping purposes. The fact of the matter is that now stock has redwater fever, what do we do about that? I believe that there must be a concerted effort to make vaccine available in order to save the stock which already has, or is exposed to, redwater infection. CHIEF MINISTER : We cannot do that. It is only the individual who can do that, because the vaccine must be used the same day as it arrives. Mr GUZANA: The hon. the Chief Minister indicates that it must be used immediately after it is received. Is it not possible then for the Department of Agriculture to organise administrative areas in groups and take the vaccine out and get the people to bring their stock and bring the money to buy the vaccine and have the stock vaccinated ? The catastrophe as we face it now is no longer one to be faced by the individual, but rather by the Government, and one might liken it to a situation similar to that which has occurred in flooded areas where Departments have stepped in to save the people from the consequences of that situation. I would urge the hon. the Minister of Agriculture in consultation with the hon. the Chief Minister to do something positive just to save the stock, and I welcome the announcement that there is going to be a meeting with the regional authorities. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I think the catastrophic situation in connexion with the livestock of the Transkei has been sufficiently canvassed by this House. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman, I want a motion, please. CHAIRMAN : I am of the opinion that we shall just be wasting our time as it cannot be canvassed further than it has been done for the department's interest and attention. In the premises, therefore, we shall pass on to the next item.

Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the step being taken by the hon. the Chief Minister I wonder whether or not we could not express ourselves on this matter which is of significant national and economic importance in the Transkei. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, as the result of the seriousness of this question in connexion with livestock I think it is pertinent that some expressions could be put forward by this House. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, when the Transkeian Constitution was promulgated in 1963 certain powers were reserved for local bodies such as the tribal authorities and the regional authorities. Now, dipping became a function of the regional authorities and, as a matter of fact, the regional authorities inherited these duties and functions from the district authorities, but it is most disappointing to find that the regional authorities are not performing their functions as they should do in this respect. Unfortunately, I was not present when the policy speech of the hon. Minister was being discussed and I have merely heard that he was under fire with respect to dipping, certain hon. members saying there was too much dipping. Now, I want to advise the hon. members that without proper and regular dipping the stockowners are running the risk of losing all their stock. During the last weekend I happened to meet the wife of the hon. the Minister of Justice, who quickly took his cattle to the sales because they were dying from redwater fever. She did that without even consulting her husband. Now, you can imagine what loss must have been incurred by the people who bought those cattle. Redwater fever is caused by ticks, nothing else. With regular dipping, even if we dip weekly, we cannot have redwater fever in the Transkei. My cattle are in an area where there is no dipping, in Lady Frere. There is no dipping there altogether, and as a result the people of Lady Frere have no cattle. The people of the Transkei have got to be educated that dipping is in the interests of the farmer. I am the only person who dips in Lady Frere. I dip my cattle privately. I am happy that this matter has come up this morning from the hon. Minister, but it is a pity that the Government has got to incur such expenses because of the negligence of the farmers. Now, I think the regional authorities are to a great extent to blame, because it is in their power to exercise control to the extent of having to punish the stockowners . Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I think this is a tragic situation which requires quick action on the part of the Government. Whilst the regional authorities have the powers described, they seem to be slow in exercising their authority and in ensuring that stock is dipped regularly. In my view

APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr Chairman, I move that the House sit in committee. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee The debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was resumed. CHIEF D. MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. First and foremost, I listened very attentively to the remarks by the mover of the amendment to the effect that the Minister's salary be reduced, but I could not find any reason for the reduction of the Minister's salary. I therefore concluded that it was time that hon. members expressed appreciation for the policy speech. There have been very important steps which have been embarked upon in the way of training technicians, engineers and electricians. Those steps are a pointer to the advancement and progress of the Transkei.

197

In regard to the condition of our roads, as has been clearly pointed out by the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works, the torrential rains which we have had for a period have damaged the surface of the roads to a great extent. The rains have been so incessant that there has been no chance to attend to the roads and we cannot blame the department or the Minister in charge of the department for such a situation. At the same time we appreciate the fact that the department is acquiring modern machinery which is going to be used for road construction and maintenance. When we observe the condition of our roads we shall not be able to say that their state of repair is worse than it was ten years ago. Be that as it may, we shall constantly make representations to the hon. Minister in charge. As I have mentioned, the unfavourable weather conditions contributed to the bad state of the roads. We ask now that more attention should be given to the roads. When repairs are being undertaken, we notice they are not carried out along the length of that road but only certain stretches are attended to. The result is that the portion which has been gravelled will be all right, but the portion that has not been attended to will deteriorate. Our request is that gravelling must be applied throughout that particular road when repairs are undertaken. We shall not forget also to recommend to the hon. Minister that bridges must be constructed. I will give an example prejudicing or setting aside other areas. There are bridges which have fallen into a bad state of disrepair in the area of Bizana. Bridges such as the Matwebu, Mzamba and Dutyini all need attention. When one looks at those bridges there is no sign that the surface was ever cemented. All one sees is crushed stone which is damaging to the vehicles which use those bridges. We trust that attention will be paid to this particular state of affairs. We shall not forget to commend for the hon. Minister's attention that all the branch roads from government roads which lead to places like tribal authority offices should be gravelled . It is rather a pity because some of these tribal offices are visited by officials of the department and while these officials are busy with the officials of the tribal authorities rain threatens. It is difficult for those officils to get back and the position becomes worse when it is a white official who has visited the area. Mr K. M. GUZANA : Why? CHIEF MLINDAZWE : I am quite certain the hon. member has not accommodated a white official in his house. Mr GUZANA: What is the difference? He is just a human being. CHIEF MLINDAZWE : We are aware of the grants given to us by the Government towards the maintenance of our roads. Those grants only assist us to open up the road, but they are insufficient when rains pour down. That is why we ask that the roads leading to the tribal authority offices be gravelled, because on the average no tribal office is more than about three miles from the main road. With those words, Mr Chairman, I express thanks for the progress made in this department. I am surprised that the hon. member cannot appreciate the progress which has been made which is shown by the amendment they have introduced. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up in support of the amendment. It is a good thing to introduce such an amendment because if that is not done the hon. Minister will fail to do his duty. It is correct, as hon. members have

said, that the roads are in a very bad state because of the torrential rains, but the fact remains that there is no machinery for the repair and construction of the roads because there are no mechanics, except one. If there is a white mechanic there should also be a post created for a black mechanic so that we should at least have two mechanics. The black mechanic should have his assistant who will hand over to him all the instruments such as spanners, and then the vehicles used will be kept in a very good condition and there will be no delay when work is to be done. No-one can oversee a mechanic because the mechanic knows what he has to do. The trucks being used now are not as longlasting as the trucks which were used in the past. I would suggest that the department should not get its requisitions from one firm but they should also get some Bedford trucks. I wish to say that the young men who have been sent for training should have their salaries raised once they have completed their training and they should be promoted to grade 1. When a man has been trained as a mechanic he should not be kept in one post for as long as ten years. All I have enumerated should be attended to. Coming to the Public Works section, a white man man should not always be kept in a certain post. Another man should be trained to take his place. There are certain black people who have qualified as builders and there are also white people who have qualified , but when these people work together the white people will oversee and supervise the black worker even

though it may happen that the black worker has better qualifications . I suggest, therefore, that if there is a white supervisor there should also be a black supervisor employed. In order to assist the black people to know their work well they should be employed when white artisans are employed , because these people now know how to construct buildings. The black people should have their share and should be paid equally with the Whites. Coming back to the road section, I will make a request in connexion with a road which branches off near Mqanduli to Jixini. It branches off from the Qokolweni road . That road is impossible and the buses cannot use it. We have on occasion made representations for the reconstruction of that road. There is a very narrow bridge on that road over the Qokolweni stream. There is a stream known as Mtepa which is near the Qokolweni Secondary School. When that stream is in flood the children cannot get to school. We request that a bridge should be built over that stream . On the road from Umtata to Mqanduli there is a branch road to the lefthand side which leads to Mxambule. It passes the Great Place of the Nqabe tribe and crosses over a bridge on the Ngqungqu River. That is a very good bridge. Coming now to Mbozisa, if the road leading to the Coffee Bay road could be put into good condition it would be a most suitable road to be used by the Nqabe tribe. There is a branch on the same road which leads to a trading store. We would that the branch road be repaired . There is yet another branch which leads to Golomi store and passes a stream at Qingqolo. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, I want to make a special request to all the members. We have listened to seven members on this policy speech and each and every one has hammered on the bad roads throughout the districts. I think there are many other aspects in this policy speech and I now rule as follows: All people concerned with 198

broken and irreparable roads must approach the departmental officials so that they can be directed to the maps. I will not allow any other speaker on the state of the roads. Everybody knows that they are bad. (Laughter) CHIEF S. C. JOJO : The reason why the roads are eroded is simply because .. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member sit down. Chief Stanford Sigcau is the next speaker. CHIEF S. L. SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. It appears that we are one in commending the policy speech, except that we are criticizing some points . We appreciate the fact that although the hon . Minister is new to this portfolio there is not much that can be criticized. There are certain administrative areas in Lusikisiki district which have levied themselves to erect school buildings and we would request that the department applies itself towards the expeditious erection of those schools in order that the people may see that progress is being made. There are locations which have imposed levies upon themselves and there are others which have not yet levied themselves for the erection of buildings. That is why we recommend that the department must see to it that these school buildings are erected quickly so that the people can see the benefit. Another request comes from the workers on the roads. It happens that labourers in the Lusikisiki district are transferred to a district like Bizana and they find it difficult to get foodstuffs. How would it be if Lusikisiki workmen remained there and the Bizana workers at Bizana? They are unable to appreciate the increase in their wages because they have to feed themselves on their wages. Here is another aspect of the matter. There are a number of workers at the tea project and I remember it was mentioned last year that some of them were swept away by the flooded rivers . I am afraid the Chairman will bring me to order now. (Laughter) However, I must place it on record that we did ask for the construction of a bridge there. Mr K. M. GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it would appear that we have been kneehaltered altogether in relation to this policy speech. I was going to suggest that we need something to get us to the beautiful places which we find in the Transkei because if we are going to exploit the tourist trade we must have a way whereby we do get to where we want to get to. (Laughter) Much of our economy can be boosted up if these tourists can get there, and we must make it possible for those people to travel there safely and smoothly without difficulty. If in the course of their journey to those places of beauty and interest they have got to negotiate round precipitous areas , I wonder whether or not it is not possible for this department to consider establishing guard rails. My fear is that because of the broken topography of the Transkei quite a lot of traffic is exposed to the possibility of driving over the precipice, and therefore these guard rails at these dangerous bends are a necessity. I hope I have conveyed the idea without mentioning the word that is now taboo. (Laughter) Yes, Sir, stray animals in the Transkei are a menace where our cars are supposed to move along from one place to another and the law does not help either the motorist or the stockowner. That strip which is used by the car goes through an administrative area where the people reside and stock is there before this strip, and I have found that there are quite a number of legal difficulties as to who should be saddled with

negligence if a car and beast happen to come into collision. I can very well imagine the difficulties which are going to face your traffic force if they have got to keep stock off the place where cars move from one place to another. (Laughter) There is no obligation resting on the stockowner to keep his stock away from X, nor has the motorist the right to claim that he has first preference along X. (Laughter) Even if X is fenced in the stockowner has no responsibility to keep gates closed overnight or even during the day. I would suggest that your department looks into the legal implications relating to the control of stray animals in the Transkei. Some time ago, about two or three years back, we had some problem relating to houses bought over from Whites selling to the South African Bantu Trust and the problem arises over the fact that these houses are sometimes rented by either members of the public or civil servants . Your predecessors indicated that they had not worked out a system of rental and a system of collection of that rental. There has not been any mention in your policy speech of this matter and we are keenly interested to know whether or not your department has devised a system of accounting relating to the collection of rentals for these government houses. We are of the view that quite a number of people are getting away with insufficient rent or are not paying rent at all, or they are misusing the buildings that are ultimately to be sold to the public. We would like to know further as to what steps are being taken by your department to maintain these houses in a good state of repair before they are sold to prospective buyers. I have gone into areas where such houses stand vacant, to find the grass kneehigh, to find creepers growing up the walls, to find concrete floors broken up by kikuyu grass, apart from the inhabitants which are spiders , insects, etc. If this house was sold by the owner to the South African Bantu Trust for R10 000 three years ago, it is expected to be bought by a prospective buyer for the same price, if not more. Is your department aware of this deterioration and, if it is aware of it, is it doing anything about it and if it is not doing anything about it, why is it not doing anything about it? Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members , despite the austerity of the Chair I will have to appeal to you that in my speech the word "roads" will appear several times, though it will be in praise of the department. Hours of travel are a more significant measure than geographical miles in recognizing the size of a country, as if you ask even a mere blanketed man how far Cape Town is from Umtata he will tell you it is a matter of three days' travel from Umtata by train. We speak about 1 hour 15 minutes from Umtata to Mount Frere at 50 miles an hour, or three hours from Umtata to East London . Only about a decade ago the length and breadth of the Transkei, particularly between a district town and its surrounding rural areas, could only be covered by journeys lasting a day or So. The different regions had been so remote from each other as foreign lands , and throughout the summer when the few roads had become impassable and the towns held out almost in a state of siege people in the rural villages were very often marooned from their towns and the routine of business in the towns was broken. Workers on leave often failed to report for duty in time, due to floodwashed or muddy roads. Although these great setbacks in the smooth communication across and out of the territory still obtain, to the inconvenience of every commuter and road user, magnificent efforts have been made by the Department

199

tumble like all the other policy speeches. However, in fairness to the department I wish to express some gratitude that in the fourth financial year they were able to put up some secondary schools in our area and I must say we are really grateful to them for the effort they have made. I must say it was as a result of a tour by the then Minister of Roads who now is the Minister of Agriculture. He went out there to conduct an inspection in loco and did really establish that what I said in this House was really true and genuine about the position in the area. With due respect to the ruling of the Chairman I must now embark on something else and try to avoid the question of the bad roads. There is the question of traffic cops. We do notice that more often than not the victims are the African people and all other groups (say the Whites) are allowed to pass where Africans cannot do so. I am worrying particularly about the so-called white town of Matatiele. Cops in that area actually operate right inland into areas that are supposed to be African occupied, and those are cops who do not in actual fact belong to the Transkei. They have become a great menace right into an administrative area which is right in the Transkei and these people have to travel from the Natal side of the town into the Transkei side of the town and they create a menace to the African people only. I could be happy if the hon. Minister in his reply would tell us what he intends doing about that menace. Having made representations to the officials of the department who are responsible for the work of the department in the Maluti region, this is what I get: The geographical position of the area physically requires more machinery, especially bulldozers . That is now, the bulldozers will be the fitting machines to open up the narrow roads, to dig up gravel and even to assist the graders because the area is so mountainous that it is impossible to grade the roads without the assistance of bulldozers. Here it is that the Transkei is strenuously thinking in terms of the independence that they have in their minds. Without good roads there can be no development of any country. The Transkei is not exclusive in that, and in that case, Mr Chairman, it is imperative that in certain regions we must have the machinery befitting the geographical position of that particular area. Also, in the putting up of secondary schools which are the sole responsibility of the department, I would the department took the trouble of going round the country to find out the position because there is always the feeling that there are certain regions where more schools are put up than in other regions. We feel that every district belongs to the Transkei and it is entitled to a fair share of the work of each and every department of the government. My last point is the question of candidates who are sent to technical schools for training. Mr Chairman, please do something about those howling dogs in the corner. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Withdraw the word "dogs". Mr ZIBI: I do so, Mr Chairman, but please protect me. It is a question of the candidates who are taken to technical schools for training and I think the percentage is much too small. Of course, I do know it might rebound on the Department of Education that we might not have sufficient fellows who do maths at matric level to be able to attend technical schools, or is it perhaps the financial aspect of the department that makes it impossible for them to increase the number of candidates who must go for technical training? We do really require technicians if we are serious about going into independence as the Transkei. Finally,

of Roads to eliminate these backlogs in the movement of traffic in the Transkei. The hon. the Minister of Roads pointed this out in his policy speech. I am not going to mention in support of my argument the various roads that have been constructed and improved. That is listed in the policy speech. As I pointed out earlier, the roads reconstructed and improved are too numerous to mention as they are mentioned in the policy speech. I would like to point out that the incentive for the said construction and improvement was due to the rapid development of the country and also the tremendous increase of the traffic flow in the Transkei. Mr Chairman, the growth of any country to economic viability cannot be divorced from a good and serviceable transport system, and that is an irrefutable fact. We all know how the inadequate transport system of Zambia has forced that country to undertake the coastal railway line to Tanzania. We also remember why and how Great Britain in the 1800s had to undertake the building of artificial waterways and a network of highways as a good investment, and so this leads us to remember that our roads should be given a durable quality by converting them to tarred roads. Before I conclude, Mr Chairman, I wish to appeal to the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works not about the bad roads in Maluti, but about the workers there. There is a general feeling among the workers in your department there where the topography constitutes a serious setback. They feel that the machinery used is in the main antequated or old and needs constant repair, and again the white mechanics responsible for such repairs, like the average White in the Transkei whether he be in the Umtata Standard Bank or the Post Office, have fallen into a groove and adopted a passive attitude. I am not going to go into the details of that question as any man with open eyes knows the fact. Your attention, hon. Minister, is invited to this serious anomaly threatening good services to the Transkeian Africans. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Which is the anomaly? Mr LUDIDI: If you were listening very well I pointed it out in the former passage. I spoke about the machinery in Maluti region which is used in the repair of the roads and which is antiquated , and then went on to point out the attitude of the white mechanics. Mr GUZANA: But that is not anomalous. Mr LUDIDI: Well, it may not be anomalous to the hon. member because he thinks in a light vein, but I regard it as an anomaly. There is also a request with regard to the building of schools in the Transkei. While the people are still paying levies which have been imposed for the construction of schools, the people feel that the department, if it is possible, should help them by building the school while the levy is being collected, because it sometimes takes almost two to three years, and yet again once the Department of Education has approved the establishment of a certain school then the Department of Roads has to come to a contract with a certain contractor and the process is very, very slow in the building of the school . Again, there is a request that the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works should see if the building of schools cannot be speeded up because the people need the school once the people have applied for it. Mr H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it does not necessarily mean that we have got to treat this policy speech with leniency only because the Secretary as well as the Minister happen to be new to the department. It has got to go through the rough and

200

I must say I am also grateful to the present senior road foreman in the region who, on getting there last year, honestly made a positive effort in trying to improve the roads in that area when his predecessor had been doing practically nothing. My prayer to the department is please to give him more machinery and manpower and I hope the job will be done. The debate was adjourned.

ments. I will just refer to one incident when there was a hailstorm and we saw some stones falling right into the road on the bus route. I referred to the men who were working on the road and spoke to them personally. When they investigated they said a bulldozer would be needed, although the stones were not very large. After two or three days the shopkeepers on the other side of the river removed the stones with their own hands. These people do not care for their work and it applies to all departments. Because of the negligence of the workers the people come and blame the Government. I think it is the duty of each and every one in this House to do police work in this respect because ultimately the blame will come to the members themselves. If an employee is negligent in carrying out his duties even in the Department of Agriculture and Forestry or any other department, it is the duty of the members to bring these things to the attention of the Government. We should not wait for a whole year when a policy speech is being delivered in the House before attacking, but it should be done right through the year whenever we see things are not being done correctly. We must see that all government moneys are spent profitably. I have looked at the way Mount Hargreaves school was built and I came to the conclusion these people were paid for doing nothing, because they did no work at all. It was just sabotage of the Government's policies. The people in charge of that construction were not working properly there and the blame will ultimately come to the Government. We must look at it thoroughly and with open eyes. As the question of roads has been so thoroughly dealt with I will leave that out. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to say a few words in connexion with the Department of Roads and Works . Much has been said about the roads in the Transkei. Let it be clear in this House that if we are not going to say anything about the roads then we shall succeed in doing nothing else. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Are you questioning the Chairman's ruling? Mr JAFTA: I want to speak at large about stray animals on the roads. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That has been thoroughly canvassed. Speak about something else. Mr JAFTA : It is a daily occurrence that we meet pigs, dogs, sheep and whatever other animals there are. It is necessary that this state of affairs should be controlled. I wish to say something about the traffic officers engaged in patrol work on the roads. Their services are of the utmost importance. I may say this about cars and buses which are not in good condition. It is a daily occurrence that these defects are found but we wish these officers were not so extremely strict in the performance of their duties. For example, when a bus travels along these roads which are full of potholes, a lot of damage is done to the body of the bus. When it reaches its destination you will find that certain parts have been broken. What happens is that as the driver travels along he meets a traffic officer who finds a defect in the vehicle which had not been noticed by the driver before setting out. This is aggravated by the fact immediately these traffic officers find you they are already angered and have lost their tempers. That is most unbecoming because it is their primary duty to speak to those people and show them what is wrong. I wish the department would warn these officers not to be too severe. This brings the people to believe that the traffic officers are not there primarily to give assistance to the road users.

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was resumed. Mr K. T. MBOBO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I presume our policy has been dealt with by many speakers and most of the roads and rivers and so on have been dealt with. We shall now have to leave that side of it, otherwise I suppose I will be told I am out of order. I will just request the hon. Minister to speed up the road which has been promised between Mount Frere and Mount Fletcher. We are quite aware that they are working from the Mount Frere side and progressing slowly towards Ncome Springs. I think they are going to meet at Mount Fletcher. I still request the hon. Minister to try to make better progress with this road because we are being inconvenienced in a big way by having to travel via Maclear or Matatiele to get to Mount Fletcher from Mount Frere. We are quite aware that in the last ten years our area of Maluti has been neglected because there is much to be done in the Transkei and these things cannot be done all in one go. I wish they would concentrate on our area now, however. The House should be aware that we are on the boundary of Lesotho and the roads along the boundary should always be in good order for obvious reasons. Another point in this connexion is that our friends on the border have a tendency to take our stock across the border. It should be remembered that Mount Fletcher is almost on the verge of famine because we do not have sufficient land to plant maize on account of the mountainous terrain in that area. The menace of those stock thieves is therefore a hindrance to our progress in every respect. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the hon. member on the policy speech of Roads and works? Mr MBOBO : Yes, Mr Chairman, I am on the policy speech because I am referring to the lack of good roads on the border. It happens that stock thieves are actually seen driving the people's cattle ahead but even if you telephone the police they have no means of intercepting the thieves. The road is just over the border but we can only stand and gaze at them. We cannot even drive the stock back. Once more I say that if the thieves take stock across the border it takes a day and a half for us to reach the border and there is no way of intercepting them except by going right round. I am therefore sorry if it is a question of bad roads, but some of our places cannot be reached by road at all.

There are also big rivers on the Maluti side, such as the Gaqangana, Tina, Bethania and Tokwana, and in some cases there are no proper bridges across these rivers. The only means of crossing is by causeways made of loose stones. For the last four months I think the people in some areas have not been able to buy food because trucks and buses have not been able to reach these areas. It is a very important matter, Mr Chairman, and I am sorry I have had to refer to those roads. In most cases you find the employees on the roads are very careless. In fact, this applies to all depart201

were not keen to instruct members of the public on the correct use of the roads. All they concentrated on was the illtreatment of the public and arresting them, especially the black people. They were very much illtreated on the roads by these police. We are thankful that it has come to the attention of the Department of Roads that we have not sufficient engineers. We request that the number of engineers be increased so as to improve the service of this department. I come now to the question of building and we are thankful to the department because they have achieved much in the way of erecting buildings. If we had to make a comparison with the previous position, one cannot fail to see the improvement. This is more pronounced in the erection of primary and secondary school buildings. Times are marching forward in regard to educational matters and we are always looking for accommodation for the children. We request that where the secondary school buildings have been erected the Department of Roads and Works must concern itself with putting up hostels along with the school buildings because these schoolchildren do not live under very happy conditions and discipline is very much lacking. We request that where secondary school buildings are being erected they should be erected in as short a time as possible. They are rather slow in putting up these buildings. Sometimes the building contractors are slow because of the unavailability of building material and sometimes their work is retarded by the unavailability of building inspectors. We recommend that the department should employ more inspectors in order that when building operations have been commenced there should be no delay. It sometimes happens that when people visit Umtata to ask for an inspector, the inspector may be on holiday at the time. I come now to the tenders for primary schools. There is some misunderstanding between the tribal authorities and the department, and also the building contractors . The tribal authority makes arrangements with the building contractor for a school building to be erected, then the contractor submits his plans to the department . Sometimes the department will say they do not know the contractor so another one has to be produced and it happens that the contractors who are known to the department are at the time fully occupied with other contracts . It is therefore not possible for the school building to be erected when the people wish. Sometimes you negotiate with the contractor and you arrive at an agreed cost, then you approach the department but the department says the tender is too low. The building contractor will be unable to complete the building for the amount agreed upon. It is common cause that the contractor calculated the figure that he tendered before submitting it to the department and he was satisfied that he would be able to complete the biulding at the amount tendered . Even the location residents have made collections in order to meet payments to the contractor. The contractor is then refused and is told to step up his figure. Now it means we have to go back to the people and talk with two tongues. We now tell the people that the money must be increased because the department will not allow the contractor to proceed with the building. Why is it that the department will not allow the contractor to proceed, instead of asking for more money when he fails to complete it for that amount? It is difficult to go and ask people for more money when you have not used the R500 you have collected. I appeal to the hon. Minister to try to assist us in this regard because we are keen to move forward. We are thankful to the hon. Minister for the erection of hos-

When this House was opened by the Minister from the Republic he emphasized the importance of a good system of roads, especially in regard to access to the different beauty spots in the Transkei, explaining that a good deal of revenue could be derived from tourists visiting these parts. Could the hon. the Minister of Roads, in consultation with the Cabinet, not find ways and means of constructing good roads leading to these beauty spots? He explained fully how much wealth can be derived from such a project. As this Government is in such a hurry to obtain independence, why does it not put in an application for the construction of good roads leading to these places? If such roads are developed we would then have some revenue flowing into the Transkei. Because of certain difficulties with which we meet, I would request that the hon. Minister should ask certain officers to attend when they have been called upon by any region in regard to the construction of roads. This would be of great assistance even to what has been alluded to by the last speaker, who said there were certain people who have been employed to do absolutely nothing. There should be some consultation between the officers of the Roads Department and those regional authorities. There are also certain roads which have been allocated to tribal authorities. Should an officer be requested to attend any meeting of the regional authority or tribal authority which is composed of people who have little knowledge of road construction, that would be ideal. This will overcome the practice of throwing away government money because the workers do not perform their duties efficiently. I would be pleased if the hon. Minister would inform us what happened to the ox-drawn graders as well as the tractors which were used to draw those graders, because in our area we have never seen any machinery despite the fact that we have made application for it. This matter should receive the attention of the department because when people make these applications they do so in order to assist the department. There can be no civilization or progress where there are no roads. It is for this reason that we seem to dwell so much on the question of roads. In conclusion I just wish to mention that there is a stretch of road between Sulenkama and Nyanisweni which needs grading. CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am thankful that the Department of Roads and Works appreciates the fact that there is a high incidence of accidents on the roads and that it is doing all in its power to reduce the number of accidents . We have this request to put forward. Not all the road users are able to speak English and we request that the signs should also be printed in Xhosa in order to assist those who are unable to speak English. There are people who are involved in accidents on the roads not knowing whether the individual was on the right or the wrong side. The road user has the impression that he is correct merely because he did not read the code properly. We are thankful that we have been supplied with the personnel of the Traffic Department who are there to instruct people in the correct use of the roads. We request the department to impress upon these officers that their duties do not only end at arresting people, but also involve instruction to the public as to the correct use of the roads. We also commend to the department that the powers which were exercised by members of the police force be conferred upon these traffic officers in order to encourage the smooth running of the system. The members of the police force

202

cars to be damaged because of the bad state of the roads. I repeat that the Government should please assist us and build schools as fast as possible. I have already told the Government that at Mqanduli the XDC beerhall is a real menace. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon member, you are repeating yourself. Why don't you sit down if you have no new facts ? I will now ask the Minister to reply. MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr Chairman and hon. members, to begin with I must thank all the members who have taken part in this debate. I think their keenness is due to the fact that roads are such an important part in the life of any people, but, most unfortunately, some of the things that have been said in this House should have been referred to the department because I do not think much good will come out of the talking that is done here because the most effective way, I believe, is for people to come to the office and lay their complaints about what they wish to be done. Unfortunately, I do not think I will be able to refer to all the things which have been said in the House here because, as I have said, some of these things belong to the office. Mr K. M. GUZANA: The office is here now. MINISTER OF ROADS: No, it is not here. I will start by referring to the question of the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, where he wishes to know what happened to the ox-drawn graders. As far as I am aware, these graders can be found at regional depots and can be loaned to any tribal authority that wishes to have them.

pitals and clinics and we wish you to go forward. The people are not very healthy and it is necessary to have a number of clinics in the homelands. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The next speaker will be the last and then the hon. Minister will reply. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I must first thank the hon. Minister for erecting a beautiful school in the Mqanduli district. In so doing he has performed a very good work. I will now request the hon. Minister to attend to the proposed erection of a secondary school there and at the same time I will ask him to call for tenders for the erection of that school. I am trying to impress this upon the hon. Minister's mind . Next to the old site there is the XDC beerhall and the children there are illtreated by the people who come from that beerhall. As a result of the proximity of the beerhall to the school one of the scholars was asked to take a bribe and when he refused his throat was cut. That is why I say the school must be built where I have indicated. We also feel that people must be used in the construction of roads, because the machinery which has been used has resulted in deterioration of the roads. (Interjections) We request that human beings should be employed to attend to the roads. Those people could be very useful. We further request the hon. Minister to send experts to go and survey the buildings of high schools. These people should be sent to universities such as Wits to study higher education. We request the hon. Minister to pay attention to these requests. The gravel used on the roads decreases the area of the road to such an extent that cars collide when they travel on those roads. Generally speaking these roads are usually narrow and the gravel heaps are placed at the side which makes it impossible for cars to pass each other. My request is that when these gravel heaps have been placed along the roads they must be spread at once on the roads so that traffic can pass easily. Labourers should be used even on Sundays to level the roads. (Laughter) They must be made to work on Saturday and Sunday so that the roads can be levelled more quickly. (Interjections) We must give them overtime to work over the weekends so that the work can progress. It is sometimes necessary to work on Sundays when the work has to be done speedily. The machines could be used then because on Sundays there is no traffic. If these people are asked to work on Sunday that would not be defying the authority of the Church. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Stick to the motion, please. Mr NKOSIYANE: We request the hon. Minister to build a school at Upper Tyolo. Money has been collected there and we are just waiting for building operations to start. I ask that these schools be built at once because at the moment there are no proper classrooms. The Government must please attend to our requests. We do not want to be repeating the same requests year in and year out. We have requested these things before, but they are not carried out. We do not not know what the use of these vehicles is which belong to the Department of Roads and Works. (Laughter) We have recommended to the department that the ordinary workers on the roads should also be graded. The foreman who was in charge of the construction of the road through Qokolweni to Mqanduli was very good and I recommend that his services be used again to repair that road, because this is a very rainy season and the rain is washing away the road. The Government should take particular note of all we are saying because we represent the people here. People buy expensive cars and it is a very bad thing for those

Mr GUZANA : But the cattle are dying. How are we going to draw these graders ? MINISTER OF ROADS : I think that question should be asked of the hon. Mr Jafta. The hon. member for Qumbu said something about a dangerous bridge I think it is the Tsitsa - and for his information and for the information of the House I think I will give him what may please him, in that the Republican Department of Transport will soon be calling for tenders for improving this bridge, because it is the intention of the Republican Department of Transport to standardize all the bridges along the national road from the Kei River to Umzimkulu, so that the bridges across the Kei, the Bashee, the Tsitsa and Tina are going to be built. Also, he referred to the widening of the road. In the same way the Republican Department of Transport will later on widen the roads. Again, there it will be from the Kei to Umzimkulu. Mr C. DIKO : What about your roads? MINISTER OF ROADS : Hon. member, I am still dealing with the question posed by the hon. member for Qumbu. The other matter referred to by the hon. member for Cala was the unfortunate incident on the Cala/Lafuta road. In the first instance I think I must state here that the bridge over the Lafuta River is about nine feet wide from the kerbing, while the particular vehicle involved in the accident is 7½ feet wide, so that in normal cases the driver should have crossed over the bridge safely if, when approaching the bridge, he had applied brakes. Something must have happened, therefore. Mr K. M. GUZANA: The bridge as it is is narrow to take that width. MINISTER OF ROADS : The width of the bridge is nine feet and the width of the vehicle is 7 feet. Mr GUZANA: That is an allowance of 1 feet. MINISTER OF ROADS : That is all right, but the driver should have slowed down. All new bridges since 1959 have been constructed on the following dimensions: Bridges over secondary roads are twelve 203

feet wide and the width of bridges on the main roads is 24 feet. Mr GUZANA: That is more reasonable. MINISTER OF ROADS: Another hon. member talked about the Philipsdale/Emjanyana/Debera road and that I think the department will soon investigate and put the matter right as far as possible. Mr GUZANA: On condition the bridge is not used to visit the nurses at All Saints. (Laughter) MINISTER OF ROADS: Well, you can use it if you like. The other question mentioned by members is the question of contractors. When the department sends out tenders the amount of work that has to be done is stipulated, so if the department sees that the tenderer has put his price too low they take it upon themselves to protect the man in order that he should give a realistic tender, especially in view of the escalating cost of building material and labour. If he were to be allowed, he would become bankrupt and would not be able to finish the work. Mr GUZANA: Is this how tenders normally work? MINISTER OF ROADS: In connexion with the trucks referred to by the hon. member for Mqanduli, Mr Nkosiyane, the normal procedure used by the department in purchasing these vehicles is to buy on a government contract and at the same time what the department considers is the question of the garages and whether they will be in a position to have the spares for repairing these cars, so that they buy a certain make of car whose spares are easily obtainable. Someone else also referred to the building gangs. As far as my department is concerned most of these gangs have black foremen over them.

"

grass must grow tall. Coming to the question of tarring of roads I do not know whether the hon. members know how much is required for tarring one kilometre of road. For your information, to tar one kilometre costs in the region of R60 000 to R80 000, so I wonder where we will get the money from. Another hon. member talked about the provincial traffic officers who are operating in the Transkei rural areas. If the speaker could prove this I would definitely investigate. I now move the adoption of Vote 6, Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the question before the House is that Vote 6 be part of the schedule, to which an amendment has been moved. I now put the amendment. Amendment put and negatived. The sum of R11 904 000 in respect of Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was passed to stand part of the schedule.

House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 18th April 1974. THURSDAY, 18th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I just want to announce to the House that the funeral of the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto will be at 9 o'clock at Nyandeni on Sunday morning, and the programme is so scheduled that the funeral is to end at 1 o'clock, so it is requested that all the members should try to be at Nyandeni at 8.30 a.m.

Mr GUZANA : Why don't you do something about the foremen who are in the beerhalls? MINISTER OF ROADS : Why don't you report them? Mr GUZANA: That is what we are doing now. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am not going to allow any more heckling while the Minister is replying. MINISTER OF ROADS : As far as the transfer of labourers is concerned, no-one is really forced to take a transfer and as much as possible much can be done to relieve them if they are not willing to go to Bizana, say, from Lusikisiki. In connexion with the houses mentioned, the rental of the houses is not collected by the Department of Roads and Works. It is the magistrate in the various villages who do the accounting. Mr GUZANA: We won't ask any questions because we were told not to ask. MINISTER OF ROADS: As far as the selling price of these houses is concerned, to which one hon . member referred, the price that the Transkeian pays for a house in most cases is not the amount at which the house was sold. What a Transkeian is supposed to do is to make an offer and if the offer is acceptable he gets the house. Mr GUZANA: If the price is higher than the purchase price, what happens? MINISTER OF ROADS : If that is the case it is his own "indaba". He must first investigate. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I gave the members of this House sufficient time to canvass all relevant points on this policy speech. I am not going to stomach any frowning faces at me, (Laughter) and I am not going to allow any heckling while the hon. Minister is replying. MINISTER OF ROADS : In connexion with the vacant houses, my department only does that on an agency basis, the funds coming from the Bantu Trust, and of course if there is no tenant in the house the

TABLING OF REPORTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, in accordance with the proviso to section 12(4) of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963, I lay upon the table a return reflecting particulars of all persons appointed to posts higher than the entry grade of the Government Service since the commencement of the preceding ordinary session of the Legislative Assembly. This return refers to appointments in the Department of Health. APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I move that the House should sit in committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee POLICY SPEECH OF THE MINISTER OF HEALTH Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, the Transkei has controlled its own health service for a little over a year now. My own tenure of office as Minister may be measured in months. With the nature of its work literally being a matter of life and death it is therefore to be expected that the Department of Health has not had an easy passage, nor will the year ahead, I believe, be without its problems. The House has before it the printed Estimates of Expenditure and Revenue. Vote 7 accounts for R10 377 000 of the total of more than R73,4 million. This represents 14% of the budgeted expenditure, and

204

relieved of all but the more serious cases. At present we have one clinic to every 22 000 people. By the end of this year the ratio should have improved to 1 to 15 000. In these circumstances, the reluctance of certain tribal authorities to see my department assume responsibility for the staffing and running of their clinics is a little difficult to understand. It may be that they assume that the government will also be taking over buildings which the local inhabitants partly paid for. I wish to assure all conownercerned that this will not be the case at all ship of tribal clinic buildings will continue to vest in the tribal authority, but they will be relieved of contributing the 1/8 of the nurses' salaries and may well, in the event, find the staff increased at no cost to local inhabitants. I would appeal to those opposed to the idea to reconsider. Fears that the standard of service at tribal clinics might drop if their running is controlled from Umtata may also underly opposition to such a take-over. If that is so, I wish to reassure tribal authorities that at each clinic there will be an advisory committee consisting inter alia of prominent local people with direct access to the department. Should anything in the service of such a clinic give cause for complaint, the committee will be entitled to approach the department for redress. Whilst still on the subject of Clinics I am pleased to announce that all 26 pre-fabricated district clinics will become fully operational during 1974/1975. A newlypurchased mobile X-ray unit will also be coming into district service. As and when staff permits , the hospitalcentric health service will be extended to additional hospitals . Family planning facilities on a purely voluntary basis ― will continue to be available at clinics and, having regard to the Chief Minister's plea for a new look at this aid to the economic upliftment of the individual, I am asking the House to appropriate R15 000 as against the R6 000 voted last year. As a further step towards taking health to the citizen, the Health inspection service is being decentralised. Offices will shortly be opened at Engcobo, Mount Ayliff, Butterworth, Flagstaff, Elliotdale and Mt. Frere. Eight Nurses have also been appointed to make possible the launching of a school nursing service and plans are afoot to make anti-TB vaccination compulsory for all pre-schoolgoing-age children. Consideration is being given to making greater use of voluntary anti-TB associations for combating the spread of this disease. The importance of clinics in the comprehensive health service is exceeded only by that of the hospitals themselves. These fall into two main categories - on

shows an increase of 20% or R1,72 million over the funds voted last year. To gain a more complete picture of what is to be spent on health, however, we must also bear in mind the R377 000 included under Vote 6 (Roads and Works.) subhead J 5 (Building Services : Major Works), and the many tens of thousands of Rand more under that department's Subhead K (Building Services : Minor Works). The major works include a start to extensions to the wards at Umtata Hospital. We must also not overlook the R80 000 allocated to Tribal Authorities under Voe 1 (Chief Minister and Finance), Subhead 2 as government assistance towards the building of tribal clinics. Seen against this background, my department's share of total government spending is probably nearer to 16%. And, as the Honourable the Chief Minister pointed out in his budget speech when dealing with the functional allocation of the Estimates of Expenditure, such a share is near to the limit of the capacity of a developing Homeland. My task, and that of my department, is to make the best possible use of this share of limited resources. I do not intend burdening honourable members with a detailed repetition of the figures appearing in print. A few highlights will suffice. Remuneration and expansion of the establishment (Subhead A) require R1,84 million. Transkeian Medical Officers are incidentally paid the same as their White counterparts. Subsistence and Transport (Subhead B) will, despite all efforts at economising fuel by eliminating all but essential travel, amount to R419 000. Subhead J (District Clinic Services) goes up by 50% to R90 000. This amount represents a refund to tribal authorities of 7/8ths of the salaries of tribal clinic nurses. Medical Poor Relief (Subhead K) covers inter alia family planning, hospitalisation of non-infectious patients, the 100% subsidisation of Mission hospitals, purchasing of equipment etc. and will consume R3,54 million as against the R2,82 million last year. The hospitalisation and out-patient treatment of Tuberculosis (Subhead L) goes up by R476 000 to R3,16 million whilst Subhead N (other infectious diseases), which includes the hospitalisation and treatment of such patients at Mission hospitals, will take R163 000. Towards all this patients will pay only an estimated R76 000. Medical treatment, in all its facets, Mr Chairman and hon. Members, is, therefore, to all intents and purposes free to the masses in the Transkei. So much for the money, as such. I propose now to review the past year and give indications of developments expected in the ensuing twelve months. Flowing from a Cabinet decision, a survey was conducted by the Department of the Chief Minister to determine whether or not tribal authorities favoured the transfer of control over the running of tribal clinics to my department. With few exceptions such a transfer is favoured and my department will be approaching the Cabinet for a final decision during this year. Whatever the final outcome of the tribal clinic issue may be, I can state that it is the policy of my department to have a fully equipped, properly staffed clinic within walking distance of each and every citizen. This will be part of the comprehensive hospital- centric health service which, in layman's language means taking the medicine and treatment, as far as possible, to the patient instead of the patient having to go to distant hospitals for comparatively routine attentions . The benefits are obvious - the non-seriously-ill patient is cared for near to his home whilst the hospitals are

the one hand the five government hospitals and on the other twenty-one Mission hospitals and two SANTA Centres. The question of a possible take-over of the Mission hospitals has been the subject of negotiations for some years now prior, indeed, to the portfolio of Health even having been given to the Transkei. The tremendously valuable services the various churches have rendered , and still are rendering to the people of the Transkei, is common knowledge and the Transkeian Government is approaching the question of a take-over exceedingly cautiously. Any over-hasty action may lead to an exodus of key medical personnel which neither my government nor the Republic will easily be able to replace. Since the welfare of the patients is paramount, a take-over will have to be carefully phased and be accompanied by satisfactory personnel arrangements. Whilst it remains the policy of my department ultimately to assume full control of the

205

Mission hospitals, I wish categorically to assure this House and the various Churches that there will be no precipitate action towards this end. I shall make further announcements at future dates as circumstances permit. To assist me in my task, Mr Chairman, I have appointed a Consultative Advisory Committee consisting of four Transkeian general practitioners and one Medical Superintendent, namely:- Drs . D. C. M. Luswazi, W. K. Mbekeni, E. M. Mankazana, A. B. L. Pupuma and G. S. Fehrsen. These doctors perform the service free of charge but are re-imbursed subsistence and travelling expenses in connection with meetings . I wish to place on record my appreciation of their professional advice which will be particularly directed towards the evaluation of existing services, the definition of aims, the determination of priorities and the integration of our planning with that of other departments. I turn, finally Mr Chairman, to that component of my department without which all else collapses namely, Staff. Firstly, the good news : Africanisation is proceeding well. Six Transkeian Matrons have been appointed and a seventh will be appointed shortly. At Head Office two Transkeian Organisers of Nursing Services have taken up their duties. A Transkeian Accountant took over from a Seconded officer on the 1st April, 1974. In this process we are taking leave of a stalwart of many years standing, to wit, Mrs. S. Larter, Principal Matron who is retiring. Her familiar figure has long symbolised authority, professional competence and compassion amongst both black and white patients. She has set a standard against which all her successors will be measured. On behalf of the government and people of the Transkei we say "Thank you" and wish her a long and happy retirement.

ing them most sincerely for helping the sick of the Transkei in their hour of need. Mr Chairman, this brings me to the second part of my review of the staff position : During the year we lost the services of the head of the department Dr. M. J. van Schalkwyk who left to take up employment in the Republic. Dr. Van Schalkwyk did pioneering work in the Transkei, building up firstly a Regional Directorate of the Republican Department of Health from scratch and, later, steering the new Transkeian department through the rocky waters of its first year of existence. I wish to thank him, in this House, for his efforts and to wish him success in his new endeavours. The post of Secretary he vacated has still to be filled and it is my earnest wish that, in consultation with the Transkeian government, a suitable successor to the previous incumbent will soon be nominated. It is to be understood that the absence of a Secretary has an effect on the smooth functioning of the Department. Lastly, I feel strongly that, now that there is parity of remuneration between Transkeian medical officers and the seconded medical officers from the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, one of the most important steps has been achieved towards making service in the Transkei more attractive. Also our hospitals and especially the Umtata hospital must be up-to-date with all the necessary modern equipment and facilities to make working conditions really attractive to medical officers. I am happy to say plans are afoot to achieve this goal. Mr Chairman though I place the welfare of sick people far above paper technicalities, I am confident that these special measures taken by my Department will soon be attracting more medical officers to the Transkei. On that hopeful note, Mr Chairman and hon. member,s I thank you for your attention. I now move that the House approve the policy of my Department. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I had hoped to be able withdraw the amendment in my name, but after listening to the policy speech I now withdraw from withdrawing the amendment.

Training has taken a decided turn for the better. The Umtata Technical College will, if negotiations currently proceeding succeed, soon offer courses for Health Assistants and Health Inspectors. Six student Medical Technologists are to be appointed for training at the Umtata and Edendale Hospitals, whilst provision has been made for post-qualification training of 20 nurses at several Colleges and Universities. I have also appointed Dr. D. C. M. Luswazi , who is at present studying for a post-graduate qualification in Durban, as liason officer to the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine of the University of Natal. I am pleased to say. Mr Chairman, that several bursaries for medical studies both in the Republic and overseas have become available and will be suitably publicised. More Transkeians, will, it is anticipated , henceforth have the opportunity of studying medicine. Mr Chairman, it is of the utmost importance that there should be constant communication and discussion between hospitals and the various sections of my Department's Head Office. Much has been done to achieve this and I am happy to state that delays and bottlenecks, especially with regard to appointments , have been eliminated.

(Laughter) If anything, I want to press it with all the seriousness possible. One reason why I will not withdraw it is that the hon. Minister accepted to serve in a department which, as one hon. member said, was inheriting a deformed child from a previous Minister. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But you ought to give him more for his courage. Mr ZIBI : For purposes of formality, Mr Chairman and hon. members, I now move the amendment: "That Vote 7, subhead (1) , in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R5 000." We are now dealing with the health of a people a people of a State, not just a family. Somebody has said that wealth and wisdom without health mean nothing in the world. From the policy speech of the hon. Minister one easily deduces that he is presenting before us a heaven without angels within. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What are you going to do with angels, for goodness' sake? Mr ZIBI : That is what it means, because here we have a Department of Health but there are no doctors. Mr C. DIKO: Sit down, you haven't moved your amendment. Mr ZIBI: Please give me protection, Mr Chairman. I have moved my amendment.

I am also pleased to say that two or three medical officers who had left because of discontent caused by a lack of communication with senior officers are applying to return to the Transkei. Added to this apparent shortage of doctors, I am happy to say my department has been able to make use of the services of prominent specialists who fly down to Umtata from Durban at government expense, see to patients and fly back the same day. These specialists render this service entirely free of charge and I wish to avail myself of this opportunity of thank-

206

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr ZIBI: To start with, I admit the department is comparatively young, but we did recommend last year that doctors be imported from outside the Transkei whenever possible. I appreciate the effort made in bringing certain specialists from Durban by air to Umtata to serve the people of the Transkei, but we requested the department last year that, if possible, let them try to get even Indian and Coloured doctors from Natal and the Western Cape until such time as we have our own men to serve the department in the Transkei . There is no comment in the Minister's policy speech and I don't know if the attempt was made. MINISTER OF HEALTH : You didn't ask me that. Mr K. M. GUZANA: We asked the department. Mr ZIBI : Now, let us come to the question of clinics in the Transkei. We feel really, as is suggested by the hon. Minister, that tribal clinics should be taken over by the Department of Health. My experience is that there is always a delay when a nurse has to be paid out. The tribal authority pays out and then refers to the Department of Health for a refund of the amount and it always takes a long time to complete that transaction. The hon. Minister has stated in his policy speech among other things that they intend as a department to take clinical services to the people. We would really appreciate such a step but again we were informed at least the committee of the clinic where I stay was informed that there had to be a tenmile radius between the clinics. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Read the policy speech. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I have not said that. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr ZIBI: I would really be happy if the hon. Minister in his reply could state what the state of affairs is. (Interjections) MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Read the policy speech. It is stated here. Mr ZIBI: What is wrong with these native boys? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Who are "native boys"? We have hon. members here and hon. Ministers. Mr ZIBI: No, I am not talking about the Ministers. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you please withdraw that. Mr ZIBI: I withdraw that, but I am afraid some of them behave like that. (Interjections) I was still on the clinical services. Because of the difficulty of transport in the Transkei we would really welcome the mobile units. The hon. Minister made no mention in his speech about services of dentists, opticians and so on in the Transkei and what he intends doing about this . We are aware, and we appreciate very much, that you have no university of your own where you can train African doctors and I would be happy if the hon. Minister were to state in his reply specifically what arrangements have been made and how many students we have at any of the universities where some of our fellows are studying. We appreciate the effort you are making to improve matters, but there are, as you are aware, certain districts in the Transkei which have been

who are under my rule. It is rather an uncomfortable situation for a chief to rule over old men who are riddled with TB, young people who are riddled with TB, and one finds that there has been no family planning. We are looking forward to independence and we are envisaging a healthy young nation. We cannot have well-fed men when we have no health. We shall keep on asking the hon. Minister for more, in addition to what has been given to us. We are appreciative of the amounts that have been voted for the additional wards to be put up in Umtata and also the R80 000 which is a grant towards district clinics. We are grateful also for the assistance given to us in the contribution towards the nurses' salaries namely, that the amount has been increased to seven-eighths. We also appreciate the fact that these clinics will be taken over by the Health Department and we shall then pay nothing. It is also commendable step which the hon. Minister envisages taking, that each district shall have a clinic and also that there shall be compulsory inoculation against TB. I am making a request that each and every clinic should be provided with an ambulance. The hon. Minister mentioned the taking over of mission hospitals by this department and we request that this step should be speeded up because as chiefs we do not agree with certain practices at these hospitals . We also appreciate the fact that we now have African matrons. We commend this, especially in view of the fact that the tendency with Transkeian doctors was to keep away from administration. All they concentrated on was the work in their surgeries. They hadn't the same attitude as attorneys who found it fit to participate in the moulding of the affairs of the Transkei. We also appreciate the effort being made by specialists who fly from Durban to Umtata to render service to the inhabitants, especially of Umtata. While I am on my feet I should like to mention that there is no hospital in Cofimvaba. The closest is 45 miles distant from Cofimvaba and we pay something like R18 to get there. I heard mention in the policy speech about the erection of a clinic (I think it is called a polyclinic) in Cofimvaba and also in Maluti. We request that as we have sufficient number of clinics a hospital must be built, because people suffer under difficult conditions and they die far from their homes. We have the irrigation scheme there and plenty of water, so I do not know where the difficulty comes in. I will request the hon. Minister in his reply to comment on these requests. He must delete the poly-clinic and put in a hospital. So far as the policy speech is concerned there is nothing to criticize except that some people in the Opposition will oppose everything. As the hon. Minister has outlined in his speech that he envisages taking over hospitals and clinics we ask him to speed up the process. As you know, the inhabitants around the clinics make contributions and the department gave us a grant of R3 000. Now when these clinics are being taken over by the Department of Health we ask that our contributions be paid back or, alternatively, that the premises should be rented by the department. Mr Chairman, I think I am through with the remarks I wished to make in regard to the policy speech. I also request that when additional clinics have to be erected there should be consultation between the department and the residents in order that a suitable site should be chosen because I assume that the department is going to take complete responsibility for the building of clinics and we shall not be required to contribute a cent. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that the hon. the Minister of Health places the welfare of sick people above paper

without district surgeons for quite a number of years. We appreciate equal pay for all doctors, irrespective of colour and creed. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I second the amendment. CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Health. As the son of a chief and an African, I must commend such a policy speech which aims at helping the people

207

ment with new equipment. We need a larger laboratory with more technologists and fuller equipment. We need increased trained nursing staff and, of course, we need the medical personnel which should be upwards of about 20 to 25 medical officers attached to this hospital. I am glad that the two or three doctors who left may come back as a specific number, rather than as an ambiguous number. (Laughter) CHIEF S. M. LEBENYA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. Minister and to oppose the amendment which suggests that the Minister's salary should be reduced . The matter of health is the most important in the country. It is a matter that is so important that it needs both parties to be sympathetic to the hon. the Minister of Health. It rests mainly with the members of this House from the highest ranking to the lowest ― in other words, from the paramount chiefs to even the elected members - to educate our Transkeian people how to live under healthy and hygienic conditions in the Transkei . The matter of health has been well dealt with by the House. Mr GUZANA: You should have waited till four or five people had spoken. CHIEF LEBENYA: Well, I think I am the fourth now. We appreciate the fact that the clinics are being taken over and we are happy that there are going to be 26 wellbuilt clinics in the Transkei. However, there is one thing I would like to know and that is what will happen with those tribal authorities which do not want their clinics to be taken over by the Department of Health and what will happen to the money set aside for these services? It is pleasing to know that there are going to be health inspectors in all districts of the Transkei. I think this will affect most of the traders and ensure that they will keep their foodstuffs in hygienic surroundings. I welcome the family planning that is going to be encouraged throughout the Transkei and while dealing with this subject I would like to deal with the moral aspect of life in the Transkei. I think the Department of Health should go hand in hand with the Department of Education in order to introduce sex education in our schools. From as low as the Std 6 level this should be done. Mr. Chairman, this I think will combat the unbecoming bad habit of promiscuity. In passing, my request is that a mental institution be built in the Transkei in order to avoid the taking of mental patients as far afield as Pietermaritzburg and Grahamstown. It is difficult for us when patients die far away to bring them home. We request that proper hospitals be built too. To give an example, there is one at Mount Fletcher ( I am sorry to take as an example my own area), but I ask also that a hospitalization committee be formed in the Transkei in order to examine conditions in all government-owned hospitals in the Transkei and that this be done on a regional basis.

technicalities I shall ignore his statement, because I classify it as a paper technicality. (Laughter) I am concerned with certain aspects of the Department of Health and also the health generally in the Transkei to a degree that I think requires constant repetition, and I become apprehensive when clinics are going to be established within walking distance which might well be the distance that a camel can go without food for a long time. My only conclusion is that your department is going to engage itself in the establishment and proliferation of clinics throughout the Transkei. But there is a gloomy side, Sir, which attaches to some of the hospitals that are controlled by your department and I think certain policies are being followed which require revision. Whilst private medical practitioners may assist the Department of Health in the control of disease, one wonders whether or not a private practitioner is so disinterested in his own personal welfare that he can give unstinted service to the Department of Health. The private practitioner is concerned with his surgery and with his business, and what he can make out of that business. Would you expect such a practitioner to give unstinted support and feel loyalty for instance to this health scheme ― the comprehensive hospital centralized health service? The more the scheme flourishes the smaller is the number of patients that go to the private doctor, and are you going to expect the private practitioner therefore to stimulate and encourage and assist the realization of this health scheme? Your clinics are going to deal with probably 50%of the cases that come normally to the hospital or to the private practitioner. This is going to cut the income of the private practitioner by about 50% and then the doctor again has to assist at the hospital under this scheme. I ask if this is realistic. About October/ November last year a survey of health services was conducted in relation to the local hospital and the general consensus of opinion was that there was a deterioration of medical services. MINISTER OF HEALTH : At the local hospital? Mr GUZANA: Yes, at the local hospital. This is apparent to anyone who takes a sick person to the hospital where one has to wait a day or a day and a half before a patient receives medical attention. This may be blamed on the shortage of medical officers, but that is the situation which is causing concern at the present moment. Only yesterday I went up to the hospital and found out that doctors were not immediately available on call; that when a sister telephones a doctor on call the prescription is by telephone and there is no personal attention given by this doctor; that when a doctor does promise to come up to attend to the patient usually an hour or more elapses before the doctor comes up. Another factor attaching to the local hospital is the fact that supplies by way of medicines and routine stock are always in short supply. This is a very serious situation, regard being had to the fact that our health policy has always been directed at hospitalization rather than treatment at the home of the patient. In November last year there were 290 beds at this hospital and at a specified date in November there were 373 patients to the 290 beds. The result is that at a night call at the hospital one finds that patients are sleeping in the out-patients' department, lying on carrier strechers on the floor, crowded together because there is not sufficient accommodation. This is not creating either the right impression nor is it indicative of a full realization of the responsibilities of the department to the patients that come to this hospital. As regards other matters relating to the hospital there is, for instance, need for an enlargement of the X-ray depart

Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members , to wind up, we wish to make certain recommendations because we are keen on the wellbeing of that particular department, more so that we appreciate their difficulty of having no medical practitioners in the country. We would like to recommend strongly some facilities in all our hospitals and Umtata, being the headquarters, should be exemplary. If you go up there, perhaps because of the shortage of doctors you find patients who go to the out-patients' department and wait there for hours on end. We have at times seen nurses going down to town to look for little titbits for their bellies. What about a kiosk being put up at the hospital where nurses and patients can go and buy something to eat? 208

That would assist the nurses together with the patients in question as they would not have to go to town for these little titbits . The vendors who normally go all the way by bus to sell at the hospital could thus be eliminated. That would be an asset to the hospital financially. I was also thinking of a rereational hall at the Umtata Hospital. They are a training hospital and for all I know their results are usually good results . It would therefore encourage students if you were to organize some graduation ceremony a ceremony for completers. Here they would normally meet and have their own speech days and they would feel socially alive. For example, I know there used to be a tennis court there some years ago but it has since been turned into a piece of ground. Now, we would like to have important personalities visiting all our hospitals. At these ceremonies you could have speakers who could address the staff and teach them how to conduct themselves. By the way, is the hon. Minister aware that the hours of work in the Transkei hospitals are not the same? There are some hospitals which do 40 hours a week and others do 44. We would be happy if the hon. Minister would look into this because those who are doing four hours more may well expect some compensation for the extra hours they work. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Are these government hospitals you are talking about? Mr ZIBI: I could not say whether they are all government hospitals. There are also conditions of employment as regards your employees and we would that these people were told what their conditions of employment are. This refers to the nurses, clerks and, of course, other ordinary employees. MINISTER OF HEALTH: Just elaborate on that, please. That is not quite clear. Mr ZIBI: If one is employed as a clerk he must know that his hours of work are so much and when he leaves the employment he must give so much notice and if he is dismissed he must know how much notice. I am aware of certain cases where perhaps a nurse is just dismissed without any notice. This is my last point, Mr Chairman. In view of the shortage of nurses in the Transkei is it not possible to allow all your hospitals to train auxiliaries? You will find some of them assisting as some sort or auxiliary nurse without any training because of the shortage of trained nurses in the hospitals. Otherwise we are with you in your difficulty in finding doctors in the Transkei. We are aware that South Africa as a whole is in that difficulty itself. MINISTER OF HEALTH : You spoke about getting Indians and Coloureds just now and now you say there is a shortage of doctors throughout South Africa. Mr ZIBI: Lastly I want to say to you that there are districts which have been without district surgeons for a very long time and we would be happy to know what efforts you are making to find doctors from without.

of the people. If the health of the people is not there then the people are not there. I will begin with an important task, namely the task of preventing disease from attacking human beings rather than aplying preventive measures. I should like the department to pass a law prohibiting people from using forests, long grass and dongas as cloakrooms. It is rather unsightly to see domestic animals and pigs following a respectable person when that person wants to be private. It will be remembered that I mentioned that preventive measures are better than curative measures and we commend to the department that these measures be adopted in order that the provisions contained in the Bantu Authorities Act can be invoked because one of their duties is to see to the health of the people. I am thankful that in his outline of policy the hon. Minister said steps were being taken to educate our children in regard to health matters. Health inspectors are performing a big task which is not yet fully realised in the Transkei. It will be noticed, for instance, that at the bus ranks there are people who sell meat under all sorts of conditions and that situation would be avoided if we had health inspectors. We also request that lady health visitors should be employed in all districts. Even nurses have a big rôle to play in instructing our wives in the correct methods of preparing food. They also have a big rôle to play in regard to females who are due to be confined. to the extent that they even know when a lady will be due for confinement, then arrangements are made for the confinement to take place at a hospital instead of at home. The days have passed when it was the practice for old women to attend to a maternity case and the methods used there in order to induce labour were very antiquated. I am also satisfied that the hon. Minister promises to take under his control all clinics and hospitals. In the Umzimkulu district there used to be a hospital called Lourdes and when the Roman Catholic missionaries left the place the hospital was abandoned. The buildings are still there and I will appeal to the hon. Minister of Health to negotiate with those in authority so that this hospital can be reopened. The hospital was rendering a very valuable service because upper Umzimkulu has no hospital nearby. The nearest is Clydesdale and that imposes a hardship on the people who live in the upper regions of Umzimkulu. In the Umzimkulu district I was the first leader to impose a levy on the people for the erection of schools and clinics . Our difficulty is that this scheme is unable to be put into operation because the work is progressing very slowly, although plans have been submitted. I would request that the department should either reply to this point or meet our request. Sir, what is really worrying us is the slow progress in the matter of correspondence. I appeal to hon. members of this House that they should take drastic steps in relation to health matters and they must enlighten the people in regard to health matters, although they may not be officially known as health inspectors Mr Chairman, there are buildings which were erected there to meet the requirements of a clinic but nothing has been done although the buildings have been there for two years. When we inquired about it we were told they would be demolished but this has not been done and at the present moment they are still there. I would ask the hon. Minister to have these buildings put to some use whilst they are still standing in order to meet the clinic requirements of the people in that area. It is not a comfortable thing to see young babies crowded in the buses, proceeding to consult medical practitioners in town. The work rendered by the clinics is very important. It is

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 7, Department of Health, was resumed. Mr S. M. BALENI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am thankful that I have been given an opportunity to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Health but I am sorry that I have to address myself to empty benches. Mr Chairman, in my opinion I think the Department of Health should have been handed over to us from the word "Go", because it is a department which has to deal with the health 209

equipped hospital in the whole of the Transkei in order to render consultative service to other hospitals in the Transkei, so that the sleeping sickness which you see to your left can be treated properly? (Laughter. therefore, that if we accept I do feel,

where the mothers receive instruction as to the feeding programme that must be adopted for their infants. There is also a form of powdered milk which is used. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, one would like to hear from the hon. the Minister of Health a statement relating to the allocation of accommodation to doctors and medical officers at the hospital and to know whether or not civil servants of other departments have not received preference in the allocation of houses at the hospital. One is inclined to ask the question as to whether or not the territorial allowance given to seconded officals does really offset the expenses relating to electricity, water, etc. , which are not borne by medical officers who are attached to Republican hospitals. I am of the opinion that whatever allowances are given to white doctors who come here are not sufficient to meet these incidental expenses which are not met by medical practitioners in Republican or Provincial hospitals . As a matter of emergency has your department, Sir, considered providing state mortuaries in the various districts of the Transkei in view of the fact that, apart from the lack of district surgeons, post mortems are not immediately performed on dead persons, and bodies may sometimes have to be kept at the charge office for two, three or four days before these post mortems are performed? You can very well imagine what the feelings of the relatives of the deceased are in such circumstances . Sir, I would like to know what instalment has followed the announcement of the changeover in the Department of Health to the Comprehensive Hospital Centralised Health Services, and may I say in this regard that, as you have correctly observed, it is not absolutely necessary to take over mission hospitals if only they will co-operate under this scheme although I feel there should be a shepherd of mission hospitals as, between last year's sitting of this parliament and today, one mission hospital has been lost. (Laughter) In the policy statement given by your predecessor we were told there were 22 mission hospitals in the Transkei and now there are only 21. Somebody must look for the lost one. (Laughter) Speaking to the CHCHS scheme, may I know what propaganda is being done in this regard to put it across to the people? Is your department preparing pamphlets written in simple, straightforward language dealing with diet, dealing with health conditions , dealing with the proper use of foods available in the respective homes in the rural areas? Because with all the clinics we might require it will not help if the people go back to unhygienic conditions, if they go back to improperly prepared food, if they go back to conditions which are not conducive to health. Under this scheme have you considered the establishment of health councils for each district in order to co-ordinate control and supervise and promote the system in each district of the Transkei? Then is it in your scheme of things for the future to have established also advisory health committees at the clinic level and have your medical superintendent of the district hospital as the chief medical officer for this scheme in each district? At the various government hospitals and mission hospitals in the Transkei do we have personnel to refer the minor cases which can be dealt with at the clinic level back to the clinics rather than treat them at the hospital in order to teach the people to accept the clinic as the first port of call when illness attacks them, so that not every illness or ailment required to be attented to at the hospital, but rather more than half the complaints should be dealt with at clinic level ? Does your department agree with me that the Umtata Hospital should be the best-

this view of Umtata Hospital most of our funds should be used primarily to equip this hospital to the best possible standard in order to compare with other centres. Then I would like to see a committee in your department which will go out into the Republic to recruit doctors and counteract the rather bad image created by your predecessor. MINISTER OF HEALTH : The first week in May a team is going out. Mr GUZANA: Last but not least, Mr Chairman, may I suggest that whatever medical scholarships you have should be awarded to people who are going to be trained as general practitioners rather than specialists after that, as we still need the old-time GP next to our sickbeds . Mr W. L. SIPUKA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I will put it to the Chair this afternoon that the last speaker took off three minutes of my time. (Laughter) I will not say there was sleeping sickness in any case, but I will take it that the Chairman gave it to him because he is more used to talking than I am. Mr Chairman, we are speaking on health and one may be a multi-millionare but if his health is broken then he does not enjoy his wealth. Health is the most important aspect of our present life, even though it is the baby department in our present set-up in the Government. I stand up then to take the baby onto my knee, into my arms and to my bosom. It was unfortunate that this baby lost the first appointed Secretary who was experienced in the shortcomings of the department in the Transkei. However, everybody regretted this but it could not be helped because he left of his own accord, while some people blame the fire-eater They say the department was under the charge of a fire-eater and the fire-eater says he cannot help it because he is so small that ... MINISTER OF HEATH : Come back to the policy speech. Mr SIPUKA : The other thing which caused a great deal of dissension was the appointment of the medical superintendent at Butterworth. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon, member, I do not like a man going round and round . Stick to the policy speech. Don't bring irrelevant things into your address. Mr SIPUKA : In any case it is quite true that the appointment of this doctor was because of the transfer of the Department of Health to the Transkei Government. There was also the matter of the wall that was built at the Umtata Hospital here which we named the Berlin Wall. It is these incidents ... DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, I am sure by now each and every member has the policy speech before him. I would be very pleased and you will be helpful to me if you confine yourselves to the contents of this document.

Mr SIPUKA : Thank you, Mr Chairman. There are clinics which were not there before which have been put up by this Government nad TB patients and outpatients are now treated in these clinics by qualified nurses. Formerly ailments which were found to attack children in their early stages of life have now been brought under control. As we see, the field staff has been increased and six matrons have been appointed, which is appropriate. There is also an arrangement for eight nurses who are going to school other nurses. This shows the wind of change. The hon. Minister pro210

of doctors for our hospitals. Then, Sir, we have quite a problem in the Transkei caused by what is sometimes described as a "quack" or the "Medicine Man" and

mised to send some staff members overseas for training. This department really requires our full support by erecting clinics and encouraging people of the community to visit those that are already erected . We know full well that these clients are unpleasant to the white physicians who have centres of their own amongst the communities. Let us regard health as a source of wealth. May I ask the hon. Minister to see to the doctors who are already recruited under this department. There are two in Butterworth who come from different centres and they have no place where to lay their heads in Butterworth. The health committee is headed by the magistrate who appears to be helpful to the people and yet he is prejudiced . He has handed over some houses in the place which has been zoned black to the white people. The advisory council in Butterworth is strongly opposed to this and of course they also recommend an understudy for the secretary. That should be done immediately so that when one goes away there is somebody else who can take over. In the field there are qualified doctors who can do it. I do not know if I will be deviating if I say there is a new building which is meant for white people only. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You are deviating. (Laughter) Mr K. M. GUZANA: You are taking my time. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : He still has two minutes. Mr SIPUKA: We must thank the Department of Health for having closed the salary gap which has been an "indaba" between the non-white doctors and the white doctors. We heard the hon. Minister mention this during his speech and we do hope it is going to be done all through. I am handing over my two minutes to my friend. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am awfully grateful to my friend over there. The position relating to black doctors is still one causing considerable concern. Last year mention was made of the fact that Wentworth is a medical school for the training of Coloured and Indian medical personnel and that the black trainee gets in on sufferance and if there is room to accommodate him. This is an unfortunate situation for the simple reason that if there are any people who require doctors more than any other community it is the black community. I have been advised, and even from personal experience when I mediated on behalf of prospective trainees, that the authorities there set a very, very high standard of admission for black students. Then there is this preference for a student who has passed matric rather than a student who has a Science degree. I am unable to reconcile this preference with what we might regard as a high degree of entrance to the medical training centre at Wentworth. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me. There is a group of young chiefs there who are worrying me. Please concentrate on listening. Continue, Sir. Mr GUZANA: Thank you. It is my earnest hope that your liaison officer down in Durban will have, among other things, this matter as one of priority in acting on your behalf when he interviews the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I have done that already. Mr GUZANA: Last year I think this House was in agreement on the need for an approach to the heads of medical schools throughout the Republic with a view to arranging for the training of Blacks at these medical schools . I wonder if any of these medical schools have been approached and, if so, one would like to know what their reaction is to this suggestion. This is something quite different from the recruitment

more often than not they intercept the patient on his way to the doctor. I have wondered at times whether or not we cannot accept the principle of the fact that there are herbal medicines, and as to whether or not your department could not induce these people to come out of their hiding, as it were, or be prepared to part with their information on some of these herbs with a view to enriching our medical stock. We shall leave out the Lightning Bird, of course, but I know that quite a number of you have used the leaf of a shrub known as "mhlonyane" to help a common cold. This is the sort of thing which is a field of herbal medicine altogether ignored and I think it is time something were done in order to recognize what is intrinsically of medical value in the herbs these people use. Some of these men claim to treat cancer and to cure it. The hon. member for Tabankulu from his own experience bears me out. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Did you see an article in the Press where I was calling all these herbalists to come forward? Mr GUZANA: Well, you can call as loudly as you like but no-one will come. You have got to make the approach. Some of these men have associations with presidents and secretaries to whom communications could be directed. One could trade recognition for the knowledge that they have, because they want recognition. MINISTER OF HEALTH : And give them certificates? Mr GUZANA : I think the hon. members from Umzimkulu know very well how that business flourishes in Umzimkulu. (Laughter) They need not disclaim this in the presence of the Minister of Health. These are the things that require the attention of the Department of Health; and how can your department continue to function properly if it has not got a Secretary who is medically qualified ? I think this is the biggest handicap and if the Republic has been withdrawing or if it has transferred your former Secretary it was obliged to send somebody else in, as the department merely collapses if it has not got a head. My last question: May we know when the flying doctors from Durban come to Umtata Hospital? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would like just to pass a remark on what the last speaker said about Umzimkulu . I want to assure this House that it is the most civilized district in the Transkei and our proximity to Natal seems to give us this bad name. Mr Chairman, I would like to start my short comments by saying that a major attraction to our State Health Services in the Transkei has been the abolition of discriminatory salaries paid to medically qualified officers. This, in my candid opinion Mr Chairman, is a very significant achievement when we consider the fact that the general practice in South Africa is to discriminate in salary allocation on the basis of an antiquated criterion of the biological accident of skin pigmentation. The hon. the Minister of Health touched upon a very important topic of family planning. While this aspect of family planning is carried out we have to note that it is a controversial issue from a politico-socio-economic aspect. However, we find that it is absolutely imperative when we consider that the Transkeians are undergoing a transitional period in their development which is riddled with a load of socio-economic problems. Mr Chairman, the Transkeian Government has adopted a very 211

wise policy of what I call "hastening slowly" on the question of taking over mission hospitals. I feel that if the department had hurried to take over mission hospitals. our health services would have been somehow depleted. I would like to emphasize this one point, however - that while we keep mission hospitals as mission hospitals the department should introduce some system of supervision to see that health services are rendered and not religious services. We have the school and the church for that. Next thing, I would like to place emphasis on the importance of planning departmental activities on a much broader basis than has been done in the past. I feel that as a developing country we have to set aside liberal funds for training doctors, nurses, health inspectors, health educators, technologists, etc. The Department of Health through the Department of Education should organize some school projects on health matters so that solid foundations are laid on the principles of health . Mr K. M. GUZANA: E.g? Mr PAMLA : For instance in our schools we have lessons on the dangers of veld pollution and yet how many of the schools have facilities for that? We would also like to see the appointment of suitably qualified people to serve on hospital boards. We would like to see the granting of bursaries on a contract basis to our students to be trained in pharmacy, dentistry and other medical qualifications . Mr Chairman, I listened here to an amusing argument from a multi-racialist defending the financial losses of private doctors who stand to lose through the comprehensive medical scheme. I say I am amused because it has been our human cry in this country that the African medical men are not given an opportunity to practise medicine at hospitals. Mr GUZANA: You have misconceived the whole thing. Mr PAMLA: The Transkeian Department of Health is now giving our medical men a glorious opportunity of perfecting their skills and techniques learned at university. Remember that we now live in an age of new approach in practically every learning situation, except of course in the region of law studies. Finally, Mr Chairman, I would like to refer to two districts that have very poor health services. Expectant mothers at Umzimkulu, for instance, have to travel 90 miles to get to Rietvlei Maternity Clinic. We request the hon. Minister that a maternity clinic be established somewhere in the Umzimkulu area. The hon. member for Tsomo has just informed me that the position is also desperate at Tsomo. I would like to end my remarks by referring to this question of the medical school at Wentworth. It is a real mystery to find that people with a B.Sc. degree are said to produce weaker work than the one who has ony his matriculation. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Who said that? Mr PAMLA: That is what I have been informed that the medical school at Wentworth prefers students who go straight from school to those who go from Fort Hare with a B.Sc. This is why I recommend that we should adopt the same tactics as the Afrikaners adopted under the English regime of sending our students abroad for proper training and when they come back here they will feel second to none in their knowledge. This will help us to apply the process of Africanization from the top and not from the bottom. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this is the most important policy speech which has been delivered by the hon. the Minister of Health and it requires to be regarded as being above

arty politics. This is a new department in the Transkei. If what I am going to say is not being done then the hon. Minister's salary should be reduced. The first request is that in all these hospitals nurses should be trained. Mr C. DIKO: Our nurses are trained. What are you talking about? CHIEF MABANDLA: For example, at the Tembuland Hospital nurses received no training for a long time although they are now being trained. Even the mission hospitals should be transferred to the Government so that the employees there should be paid a good salary. The hon. Minister spoke about clinics in the rural areas, but these clinics are meeting some hardship particularly when women are to be confined because there is insufficient accommodation in these clinics. You find that some patients have to wait all night. The request is that additional rooms be built in order to accommodate such patients. Another question I have to put to the hon. Minister is this: What should be done with infectious diseases cases such as TB patients? With our people there will sometimes be a great feast where beer is to be imbibed and there is no discrimination there because people drink out of one calabash. What can be done to solve this question? Another matter is this: Take the case of a child who is suffering from TB. The parent is going to kiss that child even if it is suffering from TB. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: How can such a matter be approached? Is it not possible for some officers to go round and teach the people what to do? To pass on, I will make reference now to witchdoctors. You will notice that these witchdoctors are of great importance because even some of the members in this very House have certain marks which they bear on their faces. (Laughter) Sometimes if they want their daughters to be married they consult a witchdoctor in order that their daughters can be bathed with some medicine by the witchdoctor. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. chief confine himself to the policy speech, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: I will do so. I am talking about the doctors. I do not know, because even these witchdoctors are doctors and they fall within this department. Sometimes a person is given a bucketful of medicine to drink and he is suffering from TB. We want some advice as to what to do in regard to these matters . Another important matter is the question of family planning. I know what the old men will say that we should go so far in the production of children. According to our custom, particularly with the chiefs, some person is married in order to increase the number of children. Now, if the chief marries a woman and the issue are all females, the chief can never stop acquiring more wives until he gets a male issue. This is that the hon. the Minister going to be my request of Health should get special doctors who would administer such medicine so that a male issue is produced . (Laughter) Before I take my seat, the hon. Minister stated that there are too few doctors in the Transkei and that a greater number of doctors is needed. I met a doctor in Johannesburg and he stated that the reason he does not come to the Transkei is because of the low salaries. I hope the hon. Minister will promise... MINISTER OF HEALTH : I am not promising. It is happening now. They are being paid the same salary as the Whites. CHIEF MABANDLA : If the salaries are now the same I hope it is so, even for a black doctor. I will

212

dale there is no doctor. The last doctor who was working along the coast died and now there is no doctor available there. It is better up the coast, but even there there is a shortage of doctors. It would be better if all thesc clinics are cxpanded because we have no doctors. These clinics should be situated in places where the traffic meets and where all the buses converge. We would request the Government to see to it that there are people in all these towns who are taught the principles of first aid because people with such knowledge would be of great assistance in those places where there is always some trouble and injuries result from these brawls. There are certain clerks in the magistrates' offices who are responsible for the registration of births and deaths. We request that these clerks should be taken over by this department because these registration officers are not paid well although they have to travel long distances in order to register births and deaths. We believe those people should be paid more now, because previously they were paid only 5c per registration and when they take the trouble to go to town to report they are not given any allowance. (Interjections) I am not talking about the Department of the Interior, I am talking about the Department of Health. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Continue with your address . Mr NKOSIYANE: We require these clinics and the Government should take the necessary steps to see that this matter is attended to as quickly as possible. Mr E. DYARVANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am somewhat surprised at the system which is being adopted in this House. We all agree that this is a new department which has been in existence for just over a year. The hon. Minister mentioned in his speech that his own assumption of duty is not more than a few months ago and I find that a man who has assumed a new post is already faced with criticisms: Criticisms have been levelled against him on promises which were made by his predecessor . According to my way of thinking we ought to come to his assistance. He has already given us some foresight into the difficulties he has to face which may well continue into next year, more so when we have due regard to the efforts he has included in his policy speech in that he is attempting to shape this new department. What I mean to say is that during the tenancy of office and the establishment of this department we really commend his efforts and his work. When I scan the speech of the hon. the Minister of Health I cannot fail to realise that hope is held out for us. In the Estimates of Expenditure there is provision for a dietician. At the present moment there is only one post and the incumbent will come from the Republican Government . I do not know in what language we can plead with the hon. Minister that the number of these officials be increased. The question of diet was introduced into the discussion last session and even today mention was made of the matter of diet which proves that much depends on a person's diet in order to preserve his state of health. The hon. Minister has listed a number of new posts which will be held by health inspectors and health assistants, and amongst these officals we do not know who will be apportioned the responsibility of educating people in respect to diet. Among this large number there are 26 health nurses and my worry is that there is only one who will be concerned with the aspect of diet. What worries me is that the people should be educated in regard to the correct diet so that they can develop resistance against diseases. Again, I would like to know what powers are given to health inspectors if their advice is not followed. I am also in this difficulty

not speak at length as I have finished what I wanted to say, except that in connexion with family planning certain people should be picked out to follow this planning. Mr S. K. NDZUMO: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Health. We are very grateful that the establishment of clinics has been encouraged, and not only that but that they will be under the control of the department. In the east there are great distances between existing clinics, especially where there is a concentration of workers. While we commend the Minister for the increase in the number of clinics we make a special request, however, that more clinics be built where we have thousands and thousands of workers. Mention has been made of typhoid fever which is quite prevalent around the area of Lambasi. There are two hospitals in Eastern Pondoland, one at Mkambati and the other is the Bambisana Hospital. We make a special request that immediately you are able to get hold of medical practitioners please post some doctors to these two hospitals because at present they are being served by doctors who do not reside at those centres. The visits to these hospitals are few and far between, with the result that patients have to travel long distances to places like Lusikisiki. We also thank the department for envisaging the building of new hospitals. Sir, if due regard is had to population the concentration is greater in Eastern Pondoland. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am also going to speak in connexion with this Department of Health. This is a very good department because no people can live without considering health. My request is this : We have a hospital here which is a very big hospital the Sir Henry Elliot Hospital. We are grateful to Ngangelizwe who put up this hospital for us. There are many people who go to that hospital and they cannot find sleeping accommodation. We would therefore request the hon. Minister to see to it that a building is erected where these people can sleep overnight. It sometimes happens that a person who completes his business at the hospital goes out to catch a bus and all the buses have left. Most of those people do not know where to find accommodation in the town and they do not even know the location.(Interjections) My request is in connexion with those people who do not know this place when they have been in hospital and, leaving the hospital, do not know where to find accommodation. My second request is that this department should teach all the drivers first aid in order that when cars collide they should render assistance to the occupants. Even the patrolling traffic officers should have some knowledge of first aid in order that they can assist those who are victims of accidents. As we have no clinics in some parts and there are clinics in orther parts, we ask that males should be employed in these clinics so that they may be able to attend to people during the day and the night in order to deal with cases of emergency. There is a clinic at Wilo but we meet a hardship when boys have been engaged in a fight and some are injured. The clinic employee leaves work at 5 o'clock and after that there is no-one to attend to the patients. I submit that all the doctors in the Transkei should construct waiting-rooms so that the patients attending their surgeries should have a place in which to wait. Most of those people come a long way to attend the surgery and they bring their own food and they consume it in unclean and unhygienic places. The doctors should not only employ males but should also employ females to attend to female patients. In Elliot-

213

how are the health inspectors to be introduced to the people among whom they must work? Will it be through the district magistrates or the tribal authorities? What I am trying to drive at is the application of preventive measures rather than curative measures. These officers such as health assistants, health educators, district nurses and so on will be able to bridge the gap while we have not sufficient medical men available. I would rather the number of these officials should be increased, especially at a time when there is a shortage of medically qualified men. I have not many matters to raise but I hope we are on the threshold of further development.

liable to ill-health. Many people have spoken on this matter and I only desired to make a few remarks. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, indeed there are many speakers who have spoken and they have repeated themselves. I hope tomorrow we will finish this discussion and the hon. Minister will reply. The debate was adjourned. House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 19th April 1974. FRIDAY, 19TH APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak on the policy speech presented by the hon. the Minister of Health. I will say only a few things beginning with what he mentioned in his speech, that his vote amounts to R10 377 000 out of the total

APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

budget of R73 500 000. I would say that this is a very small amount as far as this department is concerned, although it is not very nice to have such complaints. Even if the total amount of R73 million had been granted to this department it would not be sufficient to cover the needs of the department as far as the health of the people of the Transkei is concerned . I have made this illustration to show the importance of this department. We are grateful to learn that the doctors, whether black or white, will receive equal salaries. It is our sincere belief that a similar action will be taken in regard to other divisions in the department. Stressing the importance of mission hospitals in the Transkei, these hospitals have performed great work as far as the people of the Transkei are concerned although they are meeting financial problems. TB is most destructive to the inhabitants of the Transkei and in this regard the mission hospitals play a great part, because they are situated in the administrative areas where the people reside. They also struggle to fight the incorrect feeding of children which results in a loss to the people from such things as dysentary, diarrhoea, whooping-cough, polio and the like. Such diseases have been treated by the mission hospitals. It is pleasing to learn that the clinics are to fall directly under the department. Clinics are of great value and should fall under responsible people. We meet difficult situations daily in the rural locations and are thankful to learn of the appointment of health inspectors and the provision of health services. The last speaker said there is some difficulty because it appears the people are not going to follow this procedure. However, I oppose that suggestion. The necessity for these health inspectors is great and they will be of great value. When we have these officers it will only be necessary to have them introduced to the administrative areas and they will be in a position to perform their various duties. The hon. Minister also spoke about the transfer of the mission hospitals to the Government. I agree with the Minister that the matter should not be hurried over because these people have rendered service for a very long time and what is required is consultation between the department and the hospital officals in order that the transfer will be carried out smoothly. It should be remembered that if there is some disagreement among these officials there will be some disruption in the health services of the Transkei. Mention was also made of black matrons who have been appointed by this department. Though we appreciate this we say appointments should be made according to merit. As far as I am concerned, sickness has nothing to do with colour. Everyone is

MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I inove that the House should sit in committee. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to . House in Committee The debate on Vote 7, Department of Health, was resumed. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the remark that we are supporting the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Health. In so doing, Sir, I want to read a very important passage from your speech, page 13 : “Lastly, I feel strongly that now that there is parity of remuneration between the Transkeian medical officers and the seconded medical officers from the Department of Bantu Administration and Development one of the most important steps has been achieved towards making service in the Transkei more attractive. " Honestly, Mr Chairman, the interpreter is going to waste my time because I have only fifteen minutes. Please, you must wake up. (Laughter) For many years we have advocated equal pay for equal work. Now, this indicates that the Transkeian Government has come to its senses and we want a sensible Government, so you must pay people equal pay for equal work. I am very grateful for this and honestly commend your department for so doing and I hope these young men who have been promoted to take the places of seconded officials in certain other departments will get the money that was paid to these seconded officials. Now, before I come to the arguments there is something important here which has not been mentioned in your policy speech, but I wish to draw your attention to it. There are two points exactly. You see, we now have nurses who have been put in your department. Now you pay these nurses as you do all the servants of your department by cheque. No, you don't pay them by cheque - the money is sent to some matron in the big hospital and she pays them on a cash basis. Now, the feeling is that they are not sure, these nurses, that nothing is done to reduce their money by some responsible official there, so the request is that they should be paid by cheque direct to themselves. That is the first point. The second point is this: We have got the Umtata Mouth as a sort of seaside resort for our young men and women. Unfortunately we have not got lifesavers in those seaside resorts. Now, I draw your attention to the fact - kindly have some lifesavers at all these resorts which are catering for Transkeian citizens. Just recently two girls were drowned at Umtata Mouth and in spite of the cry for lifesavers there was nobody to save them. So whilst we are

214

from overseas. The rank and file of the Transkei are paying for doctors' expenses and some of them are charging us, do you know, up to R6 a patient and we are able to pay it. So there must be no talk of shortage of doctors in May and June. (Laughter) So this Government must get doctors and I am supporting the Government to see to it. So all my criticisms are constructive. I am never a destructive critic, and I don't want to speak too long but I want health services to be attended to immediately in the Transkei. Mr G. N. SIPUNZI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am so fortunate in that whenever I speak I speak after the last hon. gentleman, but at the same time I will try to slow down the tempo a little. I will try to intrduce a certain variety. I will definitely associate myself with the remarks and comments of my colleagues, meaning this side of the House. The hon. the Minister of Health has clearly stated that his tenure of office as minister can be measured in months, and I will measure the time of my address with his short service. At the same time I will assure the hon. Minister that we are not concerned about his aims but we are

advancing to civilization you must cater for these things, hon. Minister. Now, a lot has been said about the Lambasi clinic. I still want to emphasize that though I do not object to these young Coloured chaps being produced there I want them catered for. (Laughter) Now, we don't want to be racialists but their fathers must pay, so we demand a clinic there. MINISTER OF HEALTH: You mean you request . Mr DIKO : I request your Honour to build a clinic there, but the point I am going to raise now I am not requesting. (Laughter) What reason on earth should we have an important department like the Department of Health without a head? So I am enforcing the Republican Government within a week (Laughter) to send a qualified doctor to go and be the head of this department. After all, so far we are still the responsibility of the Republican Government. It is most disgraceful, therefore, to find a department running for two or three months without a head. So before the Honourable "Somakhonkco" goes away he must see to it that there is a man at the head of that department. (Laughter) Now this is important - if you cannot have the Republican Government sending a man, please go and fetch Dr. Bikitsha from Butterworth. We must have someone in that department, so please take the services of Dr. Bikitsha. MINISTER OF HEALTH : It is not a question of just taking anyone. It is a question of someone applying for the post. Mr DIKO: You mean you cannot entreat and ask and propose a qualified man to go and do that work? Now, if you can allow me to do it I will do it for you if you want. (Laughter) It is very important. Now, Mr Chairman, this House was warned many a time, many a year that no nonsense will be tolerated of transferring the Department of Health to the Transkei before we have got doctors, so who has done this transfer? (Laughter) If it is the Republican Government they must supply doctors. Now, I am not requesting that - I am enforcing it. (Laughter) We cannot run a state or a self-government in three years' time without a multiplicity of doctors, so I want to suggest a drastic change to the Minister of the Department. If the Republican Government has not got doctors we must now, from tommorrow, invite men from overseas. We are going to send (I know, as you have said) young men and women to go and qualify as doctors overseas, but this is going to take six years, so I now advocate that while you are sending these young chaps across we must at the same time invite a corresponding number of doctors from America. I know America

concerned with the department which has been here for years. Mr Chairman, it is a great pity that we are so short of trained personnel in this department. I am referring more particularly to the Blacks. So many people lose their lives through very, very minor ailments and when you compare this number with people who are cured of the same ailments in other parts of the country, is it not wise, Mr Minister of Health, to try to reinforce your staff by getting qualified people from other racial groups, other than, as the hon. member stated, the Indians. As a matter of fact I was going to include Indians but he was so upset that I will exclude Indians. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Why must you be told to say things? Mr SIPUNZI : I am sure this will decrease the number of ordinary deaths which occur through these minor ailments. Now, Mr Chairman, I will say in the name of everything honest, I do welcome the statement that there is at last equal pay for equal work and I hope this will go down to the nurses as well. I also welcome the statements from the hon. the Minister of Health and still hope he will not give this House flowery statements and hollow promises as some of the Ministers have done. Let me hope that we will have these promises being put into practice. MINISTER OF HEALTH: Where have I made a promise in my speech? Mr SIPUNZI : Another point is the building of additional hospitals. Honestly, down at Willowvale we have practically no hospital. People have to take their sick to Butterworth which is just no more than an ordinary clinic. Through some accident of some sort a person will go there at about 9 or 10 o'clock, only to meet the doctor the next morning. Let us come back to the ambulance services. Mr Chairman, I remember quite clearly some time back people of Gcalekaland were told to pay up to 20c a taxpayer for the provision of these ambulances, but whenever we telephone for these ambulances they come the next day, if at all. Now, Mr Chairman, I will come to a very thorny issue that is the post of district surgeons. I have personally witnessed a very cruel incident where one white district surgeon at Willowvale had to examine a patient lying on the grass. The same district surgeon, after conducting a post mortem, demanded some payment from the bereaved family. MINISTER OF HEALTH : What did you do about it, hon. member? Mr SIPUNZI : I would like to inquire from the hon.

has got plenty of doctors. MINISTER OF HEALTH: I will send you. Mr DIKO: That will be welcome, but the hon. member from Mount Ayliff has said you must get Indian doctors here. We don't want Indian doctors in the Transkei . All others English, American - I would even prefer Russians to Indians. I don't mean communistic Russians. They are not all communists there. In any case, if a man can serve a country reasonably and faithfully it does not matter to what affiliation he may belong. You know the mentality of an Indian. They multiply like flies. (Laughter) Not only that but they will quickly acquire properties here and in no time the Transkei will belong to them. MINISTER OF HEALTH : But they will supply services here. Mr DIKO: We are not going to have services here at the expense of losing the Transkei to them. So you must get doctors from overseas. The shortage of doctors must be attended to immediately by inviting doctors

215

mentally. It is with regret that at the present moment, with such an acute shortage of medical officers at head office, this cannot be carried out. The lost mission hospital which was mentioned yesterday is the Bedford Orthopaedic Centre ... Mr GUZANA: I am glad it has been found. MINISTER OF HEALTH : ... which happens to be part and parcel of the Umtata Hospital. The question of reopening Lourdes Hospital will be investigated. Plans have been investigated and a site chosen for a mental hospital in Umtata, and I think I already know who will be the first to go there, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) Building operations will be commenced with as soon as funds are made available. Mr GUZANA: How soon will funds be available? MINISTER OF HEALTH: As soon as they are available. With regard to the provision of maternity wards at clinics this matter is being investigated as part of my department's new clinic policy. Though I may mention that some clinics do cater for this on a small scale. Mr Chairman, to meet the acute shortage of doctors in the Transkei I have arranged a recruiting campaign by the officials of my department for early next month. We can only hope that the results of this campaign will be fruitful. With regard to the districts without district surgeons the situation is under constant review and applications received will receive prompt attention. Experience has shown me, Mr Chairman, that other medical training centres, if approached, can take African students. Here I have in mind Wits University. I have been able this year to send three of our fellows for training. I shall however pursue this point as a matter of policy. Mr Chairman, with all due respect, I choose not to reply at this stage to the question of preference for matric to B.Sc. students as this matter is still the subject of discussion between me and the authorities concerned. I am happy to see that a start has been made in the field of dentistry in that there is a Transkeian student who is studying as a dentist. This is a Mr Yako who is studying at Wits. Though pamphlets have as yet not been printed on health educators so as to be available to all and sundry, as is suggested, health educators are charged with the duty of imparting knowledge to the people amongst whom they work. Added to these officials, clinic nurses as part of their routine duties are expected to do home-to-home visits giving education on preventative measures (here I am thinking of the question raised by the hon. Chief Mabandla in regard to drinking from one calabash, the kissing of babies, the pigs mentioned by the hon. member behind me and many other such matters) (Laughter) and also promotive, curative and rehabilitative care. Emphasis is also placed on nutrition. At times lectures followed by demonstrations in the traditional way of cooking food are given to communities and are followed up by visits from district nurses and health educators. However, Mr Chairman, the suggestion of pamphlets is very, very welcome. I have also been asked many times about accommodation for doctors at the Umtata Hospital. I ask leave of this House to make a statement in this regard later as this also touches on other departments. With regard to the cheques for nurses, as mentioned by the incumbent of the coming hospital, nurses are paid by cheque in all government hospitals. I am told that cash is only paid to nurses at Emjanyana and Mkambati, which are mission hospitals. I can say it is mostly in these mission hospitals this being because there is no bank in those surroundings, hence to make it easy for those nurses they are paid in cash. However if they desire to be paid by cheque and go to more hardship I can go into the

Minister if it is the policy of the department to allow these district surgeons to exploit a bereaved family. If not this department must, I request, get rid of such people, because they are not only cruel to mankind but are also an embarrassment to this noble profession. Mr Chairman, I have promised to measure my speech in short terms. Thank you. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to thank the hon. members who participated in the discussion on my vote. It is undoubtedly clear that we are all concerned about our health matters in the Transkei. Without repeating myself unnecessarily, hon. members are fully aware that with staff shortages and other incidental matters it will not be an easy task for me to effect all the suggestions made in this House overnight. However, I wish to say that I have taken note of all practicable suggestions and will do my best to see to the maintenance of high health standards in the Transkei. First and foremost, Mr Chairman, is the improvement of the Umtata Hospital which, to all of us, is the hospital of the Transkei. Though I did not mention this fact in my policy speech the unsatisfactory condition in this hospital was drawn to my attention. Some of the things pointed out as not being right were mentioned in this House yesterday. I now wish to inform the House that during the month of March I caused an investigation into this hospital by two members of my department and two members of the consultative committee. There was indeed need for immediate attention to certain matters. Here I may mention the medicines which were in short supply, replacement of certain equipment in the theatre, improved X-ray department, etc., etc. In brief, Mr Chairman, to bring the Umtata Hospital to the standard which I think it should be it was estimated that R80 000 would have to be spent. We have this money, Mr Chairman, and I can assure this House that everything possible will be done to effect these improvements. I may mention as well that an X-ray room for outpatients will be constructed within three months. The laboratory will be moved to the Tembuland side as soon as alterations to the choosen building have been carried out. In preparation for the envisaged extensions , my department intends approaching the Public Service Commission with a view to increasing the nursing establishment of the Umtata Hospital and that, nursing Mr Chairman, theatre includes extra staff. It is indeed a very deplorable fact that patients must be treated on the floor, hence the desire for extending the hospital here in Umtata. Mr Chairman, mention was made of a hospital in Cofimvaba. Before the Department of Health was taken over by the Transkeian Government there was talk of a hospital being built at Cofimvaba by Bantu Administration. I am informed that this matter was shelved due to lack of funds and the poor planning of the proposed hospital. Thereafter the Department of Health was transferred to the Transkei. As things are, my department has not got sufficient funds to build a hospital at this present moment in Cofimvaba. However, to meet the health needs in Cofimvaba a poly-clinic was decided upon. Plans have reached such an advanced stage that there is provision on the Estimates for a poly-clinic at Cofimvaba. A poly-clinic is a mini-hospital. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Everything short, eh? MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, with more or less the same personnel as you get in a hospital. That is, you get sisters, staff nurses, auxiliary nurses and a visiting doctor or doctors. Provision is also being made for an ambulance at this poly-clinic. It was suggested here yesterday that mission hospitals should be supervised depart-

216

matter. Mr Chairman, once more I wish to thank the hon. members for their contributions and to say that those points which I have not replied to here have been recorded and I will do my level best to see that they are dealt with where possible. I now move that Vote 7 be passed. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The question is a motion by the hon. the Minister of Health that Vote 7 should stand part of the schedule. To this motion an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr H. H. Zibi. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, at this stage could you give me leave to withdraw the amendment? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the seconder agree? Mr K. M. GUZANA: Yes, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The sum of R10 377 000 under Vote 7, Department of Health was passed to stand part of the schedule. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we have now dealt with all the votes and I now put the question that the schedule as amended stand part of the bill. Agreed to. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am deputising for the hon. the Chief Minister in his absence this morning. Clauses 1 , 2, 3 and 4 of the bill put and agreed to. Long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Appropriation Bill 1974 has been passed by this committee of supply, with amendments. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I will request that this House waives the rules of procedure and that the third reading of the bill be taken on Monday, or even today if possible. If it is possible I request that it be read today. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Which rule is this? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Rule 118. Agreed to.

Clause 4 Amends section 104(2) and (3) of the principal Act in two respects. Firstly, the terminology thereof is made scientifically more accurate by all references to percentages being transformed to concentrations. This is being done in accordance with a proposal of the Metrication Board of the South African Bureau of Standards. The second and more important amendment is, however, the diminution of the permissible percentage (now concentration) alcohol in the blood of the driver of a motor vehicle. The existing stipulation that makes it a contravention to drive a motor vehicle on a public road where the percentage of alcohol in the blood of the driver of such vehicle is not less than 0,15, is amended to make it a contravention in case the concentration of alcohol in the blood is not less than 0,08 gram per 100 millilitre. Through intensive research it has been established that the figure 0,15 is too high and that, even though the blood-alcohol content has not reached the figure 0,15, drinking drivers remain a potential danger on roads. Clause 5 Empowers the Minister to prescribe by regulation the uniform to be worn by all Traffic Officers in the Transkei. Like other uniformed staff, Traffic Officers in future will be identified by their uniforms. It is intended that the style, insignia, colour and accessories will be the same throughout with a star bearing the crest of the employer to be worn as a means of identification. Clause 6 Contains the short title of the Act. Mr Chairman, I have no doubt that this Bill will receive the whole-hearted support of all members of this House as it will serve to improve the control over and increase the safety of our roads and also bring the Transkeian Road Traffic Act, 1967, in conformity with the rest of the Republic. I therefore move that the Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as the hon. Minister has stated, there is nothing very much in this bill which he has put before the House. What seems to be important is that when the Cape Town Parliament shouts he must also shout, because as he states, we are part of the Republic. By this he suggests that whatever is done by the Republic should be followed by the Transkeian Government, because a cliff will re-echo any sound. (Laughter) I would like the hon. Minister to explain this clearly. You will note that most people in the Transkei are illiterate and when you tell them about 60,15 it is meaningless to them altogether. These figures mean nothing whatsover to them. Something must be done to show these people how much liquor they may consume before it is found that they broken the law. The kind of liquor we consume is Kaffir beer, Marewu, Jabulani and also European liquor. Sometimes a man is very hungry but before he has eaten he drinks some Kaffir beer. He then drives a car into town. It is my request, Mr Minister, that the people should be given some measurements of the amount of Kaffir beer which they may consume and when a man goes to the bar to buy liquor he should know how much liquor he may consume.

APPROPRIATION BILL : THIRD READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the bill be read a third time. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS :-

Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members : I will now elucidate the proposed amendments as they appear in the various clauses of the draft Act. Clause I Amends section 65 of the principal Act by repealing subsection 3(a) and subsection (5), the provisions of which are no longer applicable as a result of the repeal of subsection (2) of the said section 65 by section 10 of Act 3 of 1972. The amendment is, therefore, merely a consequential one. Clause 2 This clause contains an amendment which is necessary as a result of the amendment of section 140 and with which I will deal in Clause 4. Clause 3 Amends section 106 of the principal Act to realease local authorities from the obligation to keep a separate banking account for the Parking Areas Development Fund.

Mr H. PAMLA: Three tots of brandy. Mr GUZANA : I hear someone saying three tots. What I have said is of great importance, Mr Minister because we have to go back to the people and explain the terms of these laws. If we go to the people and

217

(Laughter) Most of the points he has raised have been noted, especially as regards the disicipline of the traffic officers and their appearance. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time.

tell them about these figures of 0,08 that will not be comprehensible to the people unless a definite measurement is given of the amount which may be consumed . In order to enable people to keep the law the terms of the law must be fully explained to them. We would like the hon. Minister to give a clear explanation of this. My fear is that even those people who are responsible for the making of this law may find themselves in trouble (Laughter) because they will not know how much they may consume. I am not making any insinuations, I am merely speaking the truth. Mr Minister, you must realise that even with those people who have to be taught to drive motor vehicles it is not everyone of them who understands the terms and requirements of the law. I was talking to a driver who had no idea whatsoever of the purpose of the broken and solid barrier lines in the centre of the road. Those are visible things and can be seen, but they cannot translate them in terms of the law. How much more when you speak in such meaningless figures as 0,08! Last week I was talking to a medical practitioner who told me that four glasses of beer may cause a man to be incapable of driving a motor vehicle. He said it was a general estimate because there is a difference in the amount of resistance of different people. This doctor asked me to advise other people who are generally thirsty that before they consume any alcohol they should see to it that they first of all consume something solid, whether it be a meal or a tin of sardines. You must therefore take note of the importance of this amendment and the explanations now being given. There is this one important matter in connexion with traffic officers. I believe these officers must be kept under strict discipline and there are some of these officers whom we generally meet on the road who, although they are mere beginners, appear to know everything about their work. The picture I have in mind of such an officer is a man who is a man who is well-dressed, with well-creased trousers and highly polished shoes. I have seen some of these officers so slovenly dressed that you cannot give due respect to them. It is expected of a responsible officer that he should appear impressive. What about the girls? (Laughter) If ladies are employed (and I am sure, Mr Minister, that you will employ them in some of the urban areas) they should be very well dressed . I place this matter before the hon. Minister although it appears to amuse some people that these officers should impress people. Lastly, I wish to state that the limitation on alcohol should be brought to the knowledge of the people as a whole. This should be made known to the people through tribal authorities, regional authorities, magistrates' offices, so that the people are aware of this limitation. Those people who drink too much should employ drivers to drive for them. Probably that would assist to decrease the number of loafers who will now be employed as drivers to those who are wellto-do, but consume too much intoxicating liquor. (Laughter) On the same subject I think there are other concoctions which should be considered because they also contain alcohol which may affect drivers. Also, when doctors prescribe drugs for sick people they should advise them to wait a certain time before driving a motor vehicle. Those are my remarks, Mr Chairman. I thank you.

MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on Tuesday 23rd. TRANSKEIAN PRISONS' BILL : SECOND READING MINISTER OF JUSTICE :Mr Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members: It gives me great pleasure to introduce the Transkeian Prisons Bill for consideration by the Legislative Assembly. As members are aware, the administration and control of sixteen prisons were transferred to the Transkeian Government on the 1st April 1972. As from that date a Prisons Section was established and through it, the Department of Justice assumed responsibility for the administration of these institutions. I am happy to state that no serious or insurmountable problems have thus far been encountered, and that the administrative machine functions well. These prisons were taken over in accordance with the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act. As the staff of the prisons remained substantially unchanged, this take-over passed by virtually unnoticed. Up to the present they have contained to be administered in terms of Republican laws, However, this take-over has marked a further significant milestone in the progress of the Transkeian administration towards self-government and to emphasise this fact, we deem it necessary to place this bill on the Transkei Statute Book. An Act dealing with prisons and matters related thereto, is as essential as one dealing with the establishment of Courts. It is as much in the interest of the general public as that of the unfortunate man who falls foul of the law and it is absolutely necessary that the matter receives timeous and proper attention.

Without criticising Republican legislation on the matter, in fact I think it deserves a lot of praise, I want to point out that it has the one great disadvantage of being spread over a number of statutes, government notices and administrative orders and that reference to certain provisions, especially by the unskilled, is indeed a cumbersome process . The instrument now before you is as comprehensive as is practicably possible and reference to any other statute or any gazette will hardly be necessary when it is sought to act in terms of any provision thereof. In addition to this it very clearly bears evidence of features identifying it as a document well in pace with our progress on the road of self-government. Needless to say Republican Legislation forms the basis thereof and I fail to see how it could be otherwise for their government has had the benefit of years of practical experience in this particular field and their legislation bears ample evidence of the present tendency to regard and plan prisons as places of moral reform rather than as penal institutions. The Bill before us is clear and straightforward and hardly requires any elucidation. I will, however, endeavour to deal in brief with some of its more important aspects in order to give members an idea of the very wide field it covers. In the course thereof members will realise that present tendencies in the administration of prisons bear the stamp of a policy to depopulate prisons, to give special attention to individual cases, to classify prisoners so as to facilitate rehabilitation and

CHAIRMAN : As there appear to be no further speakers I shall ask the hon. Minister to reply. MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have to thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for his constructive criticism. I think for once in his lifetime he has been an asset in this House.

218

sanction release on parole. In each case, such release shall be subject to such conditions as the competent authority may stipulate and on non-compliance therewith the prisoner concerned will be liable to undergo the punishment which remained unexpired at the time of his release. The Minister and the Cabinet also have the right to release certain prisoners on probation or even unconditionally. Clauses 37 and 38 deal in detail with this matter, which is merely mentioned to indicate the extent of provisions made to assist the prisoner whose circumstances and background warrant special consideration. Provision is also made for the payment of gratuities to prisoners in accordance with approved rates, as well as for certain ex gratia awards in cases where a prisoner's earning ability has been reduced as a result of any injury sustained in prison which was not attributable to his own negligence. Clause 44 provides for the establishment of a Prison's Board which shall exercise and perform powers, duties and functions as may be prescribed by or under this Act. The main function of such a board will be to look after the interests of all prisoners and to report to the Minister on all måtters concerning prisons of the Transkeian Government and the training and treatment of prisoners detained in such prisons. It shall report annually on all prisoners undergoing imprisonment for corrective training, prevention of crime, habitual criminals etc., and it may make a recommendation as to the remission of portion of the imprisonment or as to the release on parole or probation of any prisoner. As already pointed out, the primary function of this board is one of guarding over the interests of prisoners. The board consists of commissioned officers as well as private persons and any member of the board may be designated as chairman. It will be one of its duties to interview at least once a year every prisoner who is an habitual criminal, is undergoing imprisonment for life or who is serving a determinate sentence of imprisonment of nine years or longer. I have by no means dealt with a complete list of measures designed for the advantage of prisoners but during the committee stage ample opportunity will be afforded for doing so. I intend dealing now with a few of the administrative measures which are, for the sake of d' iscipline and good order, to be complied within any prison. Prisoners are, for instance, prohibited from being in possession of unauthorised articles such as money, liquor, drugs etc. A contravention of this nature constitutes an offence and any person, whether an official or not, who supplies or attempts to supply a prisoner with such articles, also commits an offence. An attempt to, or a conspiracy to escape, or the possession of instruments with which to facilitate escape shall also be an offence and subject to heavy penalty. Disobeying a lawful order, refusing to work, insolence towards a member of the Service, the use of threatening language and a number of other matters as are fully set out in schedule 3 to the bill, shall also constitute offences. This is necessary in order to maintain a standard of order and discipline and to foster a spirit of good relations between prisoner and prison authorities. At reasonable times and with the permission of the Commissioner, a prisoner may be visited by relatives and friends. Special provision is made in clause 77 for visits by an official such as a judge, a magistrate or a sheriff. In addition to this a prisoner shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity of interviewing his legal representative. However, such interview is to be

where possible, to so arrange that the punishment imposed fits the criminal and not the crime. It is aimed at present as well as future needs. At this juncture we do not have or even know, an open prison in the Transkei. We do not have a maximum security prison or a prison for the carrying out of a sentence of death and I am not prepared to make any statement as to when we are likely to need such prisons, but that does not stop us from making, as we now do, timeous provision in order to meet circumstances for when the need does arise. As an explanatory memorandum has been distributed it is not necessary to deal with individual clauses at this stage. We will get the opportunity of doing so at a later stage but it may be worth while to dwell briefly on a few of the more important issues. The Commissioner of the Transkeian Prisons' Service, duly appointed by the Cabinet, will be in charge of this service. With such staff as may be approved it will be his duty to administer and control Transkeian Prisons, and to ensure that all needs of prisoners, including medical and spiritual needs, are properly attended to. Specific provision is made in clauses 5 and 6 for the appointment of medical officers and religious workers . Where a prisoner is to receive treatment in hospital or even be operated on, it is done at government expense. Chapter 3 deals with a very important and farreaching measure. It empowers the Minister to establish different prisons for different classes of persons. He may appoint any prison to be an open prison, a maximum security prison or a prison for the carrying out of a death sentence. The basic principle aimed at through this is not only to separate first offenders, who may be detained in open prison where there are no high walls or locks and with a lot of freedom, from habitual and dangerous criminals who are usually detained in a maximum security prison, but also at social rehabilitation, as it creates, in open prisons for instance, an atmosphere conducive to self-confidence and a sense of responsibility. Not only are the interests of a prisoner serving a sentence regarded as a matter of high priority but a good deal is done to ensure that on his discharge he is better equipped to support himself. To facilitate opportunities to study or to learn a trade libraries as well as workshops are, where practicable, provided at prisons. Juveniles and mentally disordered persons are as a rule not to be detained in prisons. Where it is not possible to comply with this requirement, authorities are to ensure that it is only for such period as is necessary to arrange for the transfer of such person to a proper institution. In order to encourage good and exemplary behaviours and conduct, prisoners can earn a remission of imprisonment. Schedule 2 shows that those serving sentences of 6 months can earn a remission of one third of that period. Where sentence sof more than six months are being served, remissions of one fourth of such period can be earned. In the case of recidivists a remission of one-eighth of the period of imprisonment can be earned. Remission of sentences, however, remains a privilege which may be forfeited where a prisoner renders himself guilty of serious misconduct or where he is found guilty of committing certain offences whilst serving a sentence. Clause 36 is aimed at keeping the prison population as low as possible and authorizes the release on parole by the Commissioner of prisoners serving sentences of up to four months. In the case of sentences of over four months, the Minister or the Cabinet may also 219

this is entirely in the hands of the judicial officer who imposes the punishment. The prisons and the prisons officials merely carry out a punishment which is imposed by a court of law, and if we were to stretch this principle a little further we would find that A who is a graduate of Fort Hare commits an offence which is committed also by a Std 6 child, and A who is a graduate is a principal teacher whilst B who is a Std 6 child is still just a Std 6 child. Are we going to impose different punishments for the same offence if we are going to take into account this idea of fitting the punishment to the criminal and not to the crime? I do not reject the idea, but I would rather have it counterbalanced by an equally sound submission that the punishment which is imposed should fit the crime and not the criminal. Whilst we may show wisdom in legislating for future development and contingencies, my own view is that at this stage in this century the question of a sentence of death or capital punishment is one that we should approach with some trepidation, if not with a certain amount of revulsion. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I thought you said prisons are there for the carrying out of sentences? Mr GUZANA: Yes, I did. I see your point, but if we were to approach the judiciary through the Prisons Department MINISTER OF JUSTICE: By not providing places for the carrying out of the sentence? Mr GUZANA: Yes, then we will have people imprisoned for life, which is a determined number of years. My worry is over the fact that we should expect to carry out sentences of death when actually we should be expecting our judicial officers not to impose a sentence of death. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But the law is there, and there must be a place for carrying out the sentences. Mr GUZANA: Looking at this form of punishment one wonders whether or not by cutting short the life of an individual by carrying out a sentence of death we have not lost geniuses to the world. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There is a motion on that. Mr GUZANA : I have got it here. I am happy to note, and I would like really to stress the idea of having open prisons, and if there are prisons that exist that these should be places of rehabilitation . A person who commits an offence is not altogether a bad man or should not be regarded as altogether hopeless and incapable of being rehabilitated. Even the Lord Jesus, seeing some ragamuffin on the cross at the last moment forgave him and he is now sitting there assured of his heavenly seat, and I am here not sure whether I will get there. So I welcome the emphasis on rehabilitation so that the man who is serving a term of imprisonment which may be as long as a period of apprenticeship in any trade should, during his period of imprisonment be put to the apprenticeship of any trade. Then I believe that the prisoner must be a productive individual whilst he is serving his term of imprisonment and not be a liability on the State. I do, therefore, wish to encourage and, in fact, endorse strongly the emphasis on rehabilitation of the prison population. It is also worthy of comment that first offenders are not going to be put in the same prison as diehard criminals for the simple reason, again, that the man who has made a mistake should be given a chance whilst in prison to regret the error of his ways and turn back to the right way, rather than be associated with pseudo-judges, pseudo-lawyers who are sitting there as professional lawbreakers and thus corrupt a young and very sensitive mind. The idea, Sir, of providing libraries for people to study there is a very good one. May I also suggest that in co-operation

within sight but not within hearing of a member of the Prisons' Service. Prisoners who are obliged to perform labour shall be employed on public works. Their employment by local authorities or by private persons may, however, be authorised on such conditions and on payment of such fees as may be determined by the Minister. Thus far I have said very little about those officers who are responsible for the administration and control of prisons, viz. ― those men who are to ensure that prisoners are kept in safe custody, who are to carry out any punishment lawfully imposed, who are to provide employment for convicted prisoners and who are responsible for such training and treatment as may be necessary to reform and rehabilitate prisoners. As already pointed out the Commissioner of the Transkeian Prisons' Service will be in charge of the Prisons' Service, and he shall have the power to appoint suitable persons as members of the service. The appointment of commissioned officers remains, however, a function of the Cabinet. The Commissioner may authorise any member to be armed with a loaded fire-arm or such other weapon as he may deem necessary. He may also issue standing orders which shall not be inconsistent with the Act and which shall be obeyed by all members to whom they apply. The right, privileges as well as provisions dealing with remuneration, suspension from duty, resignation, retirement etc. of officers are fully dealt with in Chapter 12. These measures are basically similar to those applying to the government servants or to the police in the Transkei and I do not intend taking up the time of honourable members to refer and deal in particular therewith at this stage. I do want to point out however, that as in the case of prisoners , a disciplinary code for members of the Prisons' Service also exists and in this connection members are referred to schedule 5 which contains a list of acts or omissions constituting misconduct on their part. Mr Chairman, I know I could have referred to more of the aspects dealt with in the bill but I doubt whether it would have been possible to cover any new ground in doing so. Members are now in a position to make a study of all relative provisions thereof and I have no doubt that when we come to the Committee Stage, they will be able to render a valuable contribtion. Mr Chairman and honourable members I now move that the Transkeian Prisons ' Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF ROADS: I second, Mr Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, we can just but deal with the general principles at this stage. When I looked at this bill I saw a definition of a "Bantu" and I asked myself the question as to whether we were establishing prisons, etc., for Bantu only. My opinion is that whatever prison we have must receive all persons because it is not only the citizens of any given territory who will breach the laws of that territory . One would have thought therefore that there would be no specific reference of an ethnic group in the definitions and that we would have before us just a Transkeian Prisons Bill and that with no ethnic conditions. To my mind this question of who is going to be the prisoner and who is going to be the official seems irrelevant in a matter relating to the rehabilitative function of our prisons. I appreciate the sentiment behind the expression that the punishment imposed should fit the criminal and not the crime, but our Prisons Department can do nothing about this as 220

with the Department of Education classes could very well be conducted in these prisons. We are concerned with adult education and it is just as well that when people are inside a prison they should get the best treatment and be assisted in acquiring the Three R's. You have made reference to gratuities which could be awarded to prisoners who are injured whilst in prison and as a result of no fault of their own. Now, Sir, you have attached this ancillary condition that if a prisoner has been so injured that his earning ability has been reduced by that injury then a gratuity may be paid out to him. What would be the position where a prisoner was not in employment at the time of his incarceration? And would not this gratuity be a bar to a claim for damages by the prisoner against the Prisons authorities in the event of his suffering injury as a result of the negligence of a prison official, for instance? I would like this point cleared, because a gratuity is usually a conservative amount of compensation as against what might be recovered in a civil action against the department. And may we know whether or not a person who is in the offing for a gratuity may be allowed to have a legal representative to present his case and thus help the authorities to determine the amount of the gratuity? Now, Sir, all people outside prison are afraid of getting into prison and this psychological attitude has come largely because of what ex-prisoners tell others what has happened to them in prison. Then, too, prison officials take up the attitude, probably understandably, that a man who is put inside by the judge or the magistrate is a bad fellow and has to be handled with a considerable degree of force. I have walked past spans of prisoners and have heard the warders use the gruffest voice to give instructions. I hope the point has been made clear without my going into details . There is need for a change of attitude towards the prisoner, not only in the attitude of the public itself but also in the attitude of the prison officials to the prisoners. We must learn not to punish people beyond the three months' imprisonment by constantly reminding them that they were in prison for three months, because by so doing we break down their determination to do well and to turn over a new leaf. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where are they reminded? Mr GUZANA: By people who point and say: He was in prison. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What about the magistrate and the judge reading his previous convictions? Mr GUZANA: The judicial system is wise enough to remind him after he has been found guilty, and you can imagine the prejudice to the accused if his past history were read to him before any evidence is led in his case. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In this case it is the same as reminding him that he has been in prison in the past. The court reminds him. Mr GUZANA: In a court of law the man who does this is entitled to do so, but the public and the prison official has no right to punish a man beyond the term of his imprisonment by constantly referring to it. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are you talking about the public too now? Mr GUZANA: The public and the prison officials. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And who is going to control the public now? Mr GUZANA: Let me give an example of what I mean in regard to the reaction of the public. I apply for a job after I have served three months in gaol. I honestly tell the prospective employer that I have just come out of prison and would like to rehabilitate myself, and immediately the employer's attitude is one of

suspicion. I am sorry, I haven't any job to give you. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: That is natural. Mr GUZANA: It is this attitude that we have to change altogether so that we help the underdog rather than expect to get angels to work for us. CHIEF P. JOZANA: A thief is a thief. Mr GUZANA: The hon. member who says "a thief is a thief" reminds me of the days when he was a member of the Bunga and he sought to have all stock thieves branded on their foreheads. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And earmarked. Mr GUZANA: Yes, and earmarked. (Laughter) And may I ask if there is anyone here who is honest enough who has not stolen something or broken the law in some way? I think we must be honest in these matters. One is found out and the other is not found out. Both are lawbreakers and therefore we need a change of attitude towards the man who has stumbled in life. CHIEF JOZANA: I have never broken the law. Mr GUZANA: What about the extra lambs that re turn with your flock from the commonage? You have never been honest enough to send them back. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I hope at a later stage, probably while we are dealing with the respective clauses, to make further comments regarding the provisions, etc. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 22nd April, 1974. MONDAY, 22nd APRIL, 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TABLING OF REPORTS

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I lay upon the table a report on the constitution of Bantu urban boards in the various provinces of the Republic of South Africa. PRISONS BILL: SECOND READING The debate was resumed. Mr W. M. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to say something in connexion with this bill. Up to now there have been prisons under the Republican Government, although the Transkei has been given self-government. Today a law is being passed that these prisons, and the hon . Minister has spoken about these prisons , stating how they are going to be accepted and received by the Transkeian Government. I, therefore, associate myself with his speech. Prisons are largely intended for the punishment of people who have broken the law, either a Transkeian or a person who lives in the Transkei, and the sentence is passed on that person by a Transkeian. Formerly, when punishment had to be meted out to a lawbreaker it was a duty performed by a citizen of the Republic. It would , therefore, appear that that was something which had to be straightened out and the hon. Minister has brought before this House the manner in which these matters are to be attended to. It seemed all along that these prisons were something which came from the Republic, but now this system is to be reformed and the punishment will be meted out by a Transkeian. It is quite clear from the hon. Minister's speech that the Republican citizens will not be imprisoned in the Transkei prisons and it is only now that the Transkeians are going to realise that this is their own law. At the beginning of his speech the hon. Minister stated that these people

221

want that doctor he should be given a chance to consult another doctor. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He will be living in a hotel then, not in gaol. Mr NKOSIYANE : Should a female prisoner be about to give birth she should be placed in a nursing-home and not be kept in gaol until she is about to give birth. The baby should be kept elsewhere together with his mother until he grows bigger. When the baby is big enough the woman should be taken back to prison to complete her sentence, but the mother and child should not be confined in gaol. The Government should make arrangements for the child to be taken elsewhere and kept. I say this because if the child remains in gaol until the mother is released the child will be used to the gaol and will not want to move away because he has grown up in the gaol and is used to living there. We shall also be pleased if the African gaol warders should be given promotion like the white officers. If there is a white brigadier the black officials should also attain such positions. If there be a Major-General the black officer should be able to attain that position. The salaries should also be the same and they should enjoy equal rights. Should a white officer meet a black officer of higher rank the white officer should salute the black officer just as the black people do at present to the white people. We shall be pleased if this will be followed up. Should a person steal someone's property that person should be punished most severely, even if he has employed the services of an attorney. He should be sentenced to a term of 20 years so as to leave the people in peace. If a person is promoted to the rank of sergeant and if a sergeant commits an offence, his senior in the same office should not sit on the bench but another officer from elsewhere should be called upon. If the case cannot be heard by a court-martial it should be tried by a judge in circuit court. We will not speak at length on this but we would that people should receive treatment and no offender should be killed, although he should be punished. CHAIRMAN : As there are no more speakers I shall call on the hon. Minister to reply. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it became apparent from the very outset when the discussion on this second reading started that we were ad idem as far as the principles are concerned. However, I wish to assure the hon. member for Mqanduli, Mr Nkosiyane, that his remarks are noted. With regard to his plea about babies about to be born or born in prison, I may say that in life usually it is to the benefit of the child during his very early weeks and months to be with the mother. Usually the policy of prisons is to keep such baby with the mother until it is about six months, when attempts are made to contact the relatives. With regard to the question of salaries, salaries are considered and decided upon by the Public Service Commission and it is a known fact that we all agree that the salary gap between Whites and Blacks should be gradually decreased until it is finally closed. With regard to the remarks by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, he had something to say about the definition of "Bantu ". I must admit that I am in a way in agreement with the sentiments or feeling that he expressed, but I must point out that this is an unavoidable interim step. If we were to legislate otherwise that might have been ultra vires the powers of this Legislative Assembly. May I draw his attention to the Constitution Act. He has signified that he has since read that section.

would be handed over to people who would see to their spiritual welfare and to their recreational activities, and we are very grateful for this step. He also mentioned the fact that the Transkeian Government will have authority to build up their prison system. Mention has also been made about the ages of people who may be imprisoned and that the young offenders will be separated from the adults. The punishment too will be to suit the prisoner and therefore different sentences will be imposed, and the Board that will control the prisons will be in the hands of the Transkei. What is of great importance is that if our people are going to guard the prisoners they should be armed. It looks very dangerous and risky when a guard is supplied with only a small stick to guard the prisoners, or sometimes with a blunt assegai. We are also pleased to hear that certain arrangements will be made in connexion with hospitalization for prisoners. It should be remembered that prisoners are sometimes sentenced to a very long term of imprisonment and they are only given a thin blanket on a cement floor to sleep on . This causes some of the prisoners to try to escape because of this hardship. I believe there will also be improvement as far as their diet is concerned. Sometimes a diet of boiled mealies is not suitable. We are also pleased to learn from the Minister's speech that when a prisoner is discharged he will be given an opportunity to find work. That is a big improvement and it will provide work for many people. However, it sometimes happens that when a person has been discharged he again commits a crime, but this will cause a lot of people who have been discharged to refrain from bad actions. If one receives illtreatment it only encourages people to commit further evils. At one time when religious services were held for prisoners they were of no value whatsoever and therefore a person who has Christian principles will, it appears, be able to speak to the other people. In all this I am expressing support for this bill because even those who have been to gaol will be rehabilitated. Mr. P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I also wish to take part in this debate. True enough, it is the first time we have had a law of this sort. Previously we were just arrested and treated in any manner. Now we have the opportunity to tell the hon. Minister that we are also human beings. To do wrong is a matter of all who have been created by the Almighty, whether he be white, black or a red person. They all commit crimes alike. People should not receive such treatment as that meted out in places like Johannesburg known as No. 4 and Modder B, where people are thoroughly thrashed. The prisoners should not be given the right to inflict punishment on other prisoners. Old people should not be put together with young people because young people ill-treat the old people. Many bad things are committed there, such as sodomy. If people have committed different offences their punishment should differ accordingly. People who have been sentenced to long terms of imprisonment should not be confined or kept together with those who have been given short terms. As these offences are not . alike, people who have stolen the belongings of other people should be treated very severely but should not be killed. They should be so punished that they will learn a lesson. We would request that in order to make these people remain in gaol they should be given some education, even if it means they have to learn at night. (Laughter) Murderers should also be given such treatment so that they do not have time to think of evil. We would ask that doctors should be provided to see to the prisoners in gaol. However, should the prisoner not

Mr K. M. GUZANA: No, I read it before, not after.

222

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, if you read it before, hon. member, I do not understand why you raised it. Mr GUZANA : I am putting it before you so that you may bear it in mind and amend it. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Oh, when the time comes ? Mr GUZANA: Yes. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Thank you. Now, with regard to the gratuities paid to prisoners who happen to meet accidents while they are in prison and through no negligence of their own, I wish to point out to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that such a grant can never be a bar to any claim which might be contemplated by a dissatisfied victim of such accident. I am advised that it is usual practice that legal representation is allowed to such person. Mr GUZANA: Would a gratuity be relevant in estimating the damages due to the plaintiff if he were to bring an action? That is, if he were to be awarded R5 000 and a gratuity of R1 000 were given by the department, would that reduce the grant from R5 000 to R4 000? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I don't think so. That would be for the courts to decide. Now, with regard to the prowling eyes of the public and pointing fingers at prisoners, the law can never be able to prevent the public from saying what they want to say, but I must say again that the aggrieved party would have a right to claim damages for defamation, as you know, unless the defendant can prove truth firstly, and secondly that the statement was uttered for the public benefit, and I do not see how such a statement can be uttered for the public benefit. Mr GUZANA: Or in privileged circumstances. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, or in privileged circumstances. With regard to the provision of prisons for the carrying out of the death sentence, I do not think when we legislate we have to legislate in such a way as to inconvenience the people who carry out the provisions of the law, because if when legislating for these prisons we omitted the arrangement for prisons for carrying out of the death sentence while the death sentence is still on the statute book, it would mean if a person is sentenced to death we would have nowhere to keep such a person and nowhere to have that sentence executed. I think the first thing we must do is to have that motion piloted and agree on the abolition of the death sentence, then we shall have this section amended later on. I think, Mr Chairman, I have canvassed all the points that were raised during the discussion and I now move that the bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on the great day for the Republic of South Africa, 24th April, 1974, provided the officials shall have finished voting. Fortunately, I think they are voters in this constituency where there is no election. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, resultant from the announcement by the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei in connexion with the respect due to the late deceased Paramount Chief of Nyandeni this House will now adjourn until 2.15 p.m. The Assembly adjourned.

bers, while we were on item 6 on the order paper I forgot to table a very important motion, and I crave the indulgence of the House that they should allow me to do so. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 23rd April 1974 I propose to move the first reading of a bill, a very short bill, to provide for the amendment of the Transkeian Authorities Act, Act No. 4 of 1965. TRANSKEI MARKETING BILL SECOND READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY: Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members. I rise to move the second reading of the Transkei Marketing Bill, 1974. Agriculture and Forestry are the most important economic activities in the Transkei and are the main sources of raw materials on which local industrial development can be based. Unfortunately the agricultural industry has so far not progressed much further than the subsistence level. Through its agricultural, veterinary and engineering branches the Department of Agriculture and Forestry has tried to the best of its ability to increase producivity in the agricultural sector. Several notable developments have taken place. The Ncora Flats irrigation scheme is being developed and, together with the Qamata irrigation scheme which is nearing completion, a total of 9044 ha will be under irrigation. Improvement is also noted in the co-operative movement where many problems were encountered initially. Although one of the companies was liquidated during the past year a new one has been registered for the Gcaleka Region and it is intended to develop and expand the co-operative movement as rapidly as possible in order to provide farmers with credit facilities and with fertilizers seed, insecticides, stock remedies and other much needed farming requisites. Increased agricultural production necessitates an efficient marketing system which will provide the farmer not only with a market for, but also ensure a fair price for his products. In short, a proper marketing system gives the farmer bargaining power. Therefore, all attempts by the Government to stimulate increased agricultural production will be futile without the introduction of an efficient marketing system. Since the introduction of self-government in 1963, then marketing of agricultural products in the Transkei has been regulated in terms of the Republican Marketing Act, No. 26 of 1937. This Act has been repealed in the Republic and replaced by a new Marketing Act, Act No. 59 of 1968, which does not apply in the Transkei. The marketing of agricultural products in the Transkei is therefore regulated in terms of an Act which is obsolete.

Due to the existing inadequate marketing system it was found that many farmers receive low and unfair prices for their products. In the case of wool , for instance, farmers sell their product to local shopkeepers and traders who then sell it to the Wool Board in the Republic at appreciable profits. The primary producer, the farmer, does not share in these profits. I do not want to create the impression, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, that I want to derogate from their vital rôle when I refer to shopkeepers and traders in this context, I would like to take this opportuniy

AFTERNOON SESSION NOTICE OF BILL CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. mem-

223

to pay homage to the hundreds of traders in the rural areas and the shopkeepers in the towns of the Transkei. When I do that, I am sure that I also voice the senti-

promotion of production or consumption of products, research etc. In conclusion I wish to state that the Bill seeks to provide for the efficient control and administration of the marketing of agricultural products in the Transkei. Mr Chairman I now move that the Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF ROADS : I second, Mr Chairman. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would like to make a few comments on this second reading speech. With reference to the bill itself I think it has taken a rather long time in coming, because there has been a great need for these regulations. People have complained now and again of the lack of markets in which to dispose of their products. As the people of the Transkei have recently begun to take an active part in these matters it is necessary that they should receive some encouragement. Reference has been made to Qamata, Ncora and Malenge where irrigation has already been started and we expect the produce from these areas to have a market where reasonable prices can be obtained. Mention has been made in connexion with co-operative societies as well and they appear to be enjoying a certain degree of success . However, it is my opinion that these cooperatives should have their books properly audited from time to time. Passing on to the subject of wool, our wool clips are very important to us but I would impress that drastic steps be taken in regard to noxious weeds because of the damage they do to our wool even on the grazing commonages. These noxious weeds spread very quickly. The wind and rain cause the spread of these weeds and serious steps should be taken against this state of affairs. I say the Government should take the iniative in fighting against the spread of these weeds. People should be employed even for a period of up to three years in order that there should be a serious effort to eliminate these weeds. The time of the year when the weeds seed themselves should be noted. It does no good to wait until they seed themselves before they are destroyed because those attempts will be futile. Noxious weeds should be eradicated before they flower and that would decrease the number of weeds because if such steps are take one year, the next year there will not be so many weeds and in time they will be entirely eradicated . In that way we should save our valuable wool. Passing on to the subject of hides and skins, there are also valuable products and people should be taught how to treat them properly. However, we notice that people are inclined to value the meat more than the hides and skins. (Interjections) I hear some hon. members mumbling that I value skins more than the meat. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr JAFTA: I know what I am saying, that in fact hides and skins do have an economic value and for that reason I say they should be valued more than the meat. Amongst other things the hon. Minister said he commends the traders for the way in which they carried out this service. I would be pleased if certain reliable traders could be appointed as agents. In this way any profits which may accrue to the people will in fact be received by the people. As there were no proper markets in the past it was evident that the people did not receive all the profits due to them. Some advantage is derived by the trader when he sells because he receives something which is known as the "agterskot". That is the advantage which is received by the trader who sells, but the producer does not have that advantage. This results in the trader receiving two profits.

ments of the rural people. These pioneer men and women have played a vital and significant rôle in the economic, social religious, educational and agricultural development of the Transkei. I think historians would be best able to judge their importance in the development of this country. They have taken Western civilisation in all its manifestations to the most remote corners of the Transkei: They have supplied farmers with seed, stock remedies, implements, etc., and have provided the farmers with markets for all their produce. They have extended credit to farmers during hard times. They have acted as fathers and mothers to many. I want to salute these people for what they have done for my people. But, Mr Chairman, times have changed and we must keep pace with those very changes these traders have been instrumental in bringing about. Traders, be they White or Black, will still have a vital rôle to play in future. We do not want to leave them out in the cold. The time has, however, come for the Government to take active steps to commercialise farming and to assist the farmers in this process. Our farmers, unlike the White farmers, are not sufficiently organised to form a united front which can put their case, as producers, to the consumers. They have no bargaining power because they are not united. The co-operative movement which is catching on is the first step towards closing their ranks. Until such time as the farmers are sufficiently united and commercialised I regard it as my duty and the duty of my Government to take up the cudgels for them. But, more than that, I also regard it as the duty of the Government to take the necessary steps to stimulate, organise and co-ordinate primary production as well as secondary developments based on the raw material produced in the Transkei. This is absolutely essential for the development of a strong agricultural industry and the economic development of the Transkei. For these reasons it is necessary to introduce our own Transkei Marketing Act to regulate the marketing of agricultural products in the Transkei. The Transkei Marketing Bill is a piece of enabling legislation. In other words, it provides for Marketing Schemes to be introduced by the Minister with the approval of the Cabinet for the regulation of the marketing of a number of individual agricultural products . In this regard marketing Schemes in operation in the Republic may be applied to the Transkei in terms of the Marketing Act with such adaptations and modifications as may be deemed necessary. Temporary arrangements have been made whereby certain Republican Marketing Boards e.g. the Mealie Board, Wheat Board, Meat Board and the Milk Board are, at the moment, still continuing to administer their Marketing Schemes in the Transkei. Once the Marketing Act comes into operation these Marketing Schemes may be pplied to the Transkei in terms thereof. The Transkei Government may employ agents to manage the various schemes but it will retain control over all schemes applied in the Transkei in terms of the Transkei Marketing Act. This means that it will also control the imposition of levies on products to which any applied scheme relates as well as over the funds obtained by the imposition of such levies . These funds may then be utilised to the benefit of the producers of the products on which levies have been imposed by paying subsidies when prices are low as a result of over-production, by financing schemes for the 224

to end my remarks by making some observations in regard to these co-operatives which have been formed in the various districts. I do not know what causes these co-operatives to fail to function properly. A friend of mine told me that the Nqamakwe Cooperative Society has lost up to R10 000 and I know that in my own district too we have not obtained much success from these agricultural co-ops. I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister that great caution should be taken in the selection of the personnel operating these co-ops. I feel that some of our people merely accept positions and have really no appreciation of the significance of the position they are holding. We have actually experienced some of these things in the case of tribal authorities. I therefore feel that great caution should really be taken in choosing people in that particular aspect of life. Mr Chairman, without deviating and saying a lot of nothingness, I will say "Thank you". Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, although I do not live in the rural areas where you have these mini-farms, I feel I should share in the discussion on this bill in its second reading. I do feel that the definition of "agricultural products or product" in the bill is an all-embracive definition which will include even hoofs or horns, bones , etc., and also other products which are properly described as agricultural. First of all, I think the Government deserves a rap on the knuckles for not having a law regulating marketing in these territories since 1968 when the Republican law on marketing was substituted by another Act which did not apply to the Transkei. I think, therefore, the years 1968 to 1974 have been characterized by recklessness on the part of the Department of Agriculture in not regulating the sale of agricultural products in the Transkei.

There are certain other matters which are of great importance and we agree with the hon. Minister in this regard. As I said right at the beginning this bill has taken too long in being introduced to this House. We commend the hon. Minister when he says he is following suit with what is in practice in the Republic, and we agree with that. I made these notes while the hon. Minister was speaking but if we had had copies of the speech beforehand I would have had more to say on this. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition and the Minister of Justice are interfering with their dialogue. (Laughter) Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I want to make very few comments on this second reading of the Marketing Bill. Referring to the remarks made by the hon. Minister on the agricultural industry in the Transkei having not progressed to any great extent, I would like us to find out why it has not progressed. I feel convinced, Mr Chairman, that agricultural planning in the past has been very poor. I feel that people responsible for the planning aspect of our farming activities have really not applied themselves sufficiently. I am very happy to note that the hon. Minister refers here to quite a lot of changes which are aimed at improving the farming situation in the Transkei, and I would further wish to add that it would be a grand idea if agricultural advisory boards were instituted in the various districts. I would like these boards to deal mainly with the rural farmers that is, those who do not own farms. In respect of those people who own farms I would like to see them form agricultural unions and that the unions should adopt a constitution binding on all their members. I feel it is high time that the Transkei farmers are compelled to keep a certain number of squatters on their farms. I know some people in my district who have really big farms and instead of farming they collect these people on their farms and at the end of the year they collect rent and that is all. It is painful to watch the soil being eroded away. I also feel it would be advisable for these advisory boards to see to the general planning of the districts, such as stipulating the periods when ploughing should commence, the setting aside of specific marketing areas, assisting tribal authorities in the running of agricultural shows and also to encourage the formation of agricultural co-operatives . The hon. Minister has also referred to lack of commercialization in regard to farming activities in the Transkei. I feel, Mr Chairman, that this has been a major stumbling--block in our agricultural activities. While the hon. Minister praises the activities of traders in the Transkei so far as disseminating civilization and helping our people with one thing and another, I feel that these gentlemen have been guilty of gross exploitation. I know that people have been selling wool to these traders at next to nothing and I know that in the reaping season they buy four-gallon tins and give them very, very little. In fact, they usually give them goods to the value and do not give them the money. That is why we feel very happy about this Marketing Bill. I also know that some local authorities ― that is, the Village Management Boards ― have refused our people permission to sell their garden produce or farm produce. Time and again people are told they are going to make the village dirty and yet you find some of the white inhabitants keeping their stock right inside the town. I feel just as the hon. Minister feels on this point, that this Marketing Bill will create an impetus in our farming activities. Mr Chairman, I would like

This bill is an ambitious one which provides for the marketing of products which can be raised on a large scale, and one wonders whether this ambitious scheme can properly be related to the smalltime farmer who is the rule rather than the exception in the Transkei. My view is that we are providing for what might be regarded as a country which is farming scientifically and properly and finds itself with a lot of produce that might reduce the price if it were marketed without control . One would have liked , for instance, to have figures relating to wool production, hides and skins production, agricultural production in order to justify a bill of this nature. Then again, Sir, I have wondered whether or not this Government is not going to interfere overmuch in the marketing of produce in the country, because it is undertaking to give impetus financially and otherwise to agricultural enterprise in the Transkei. In this regard one is led to ask the question as to whether or not this Government has ever considered the idea of establishing a Land Bank for the Transkei . Such a bank would really be opportune when we have an Act such as the bill we have now, so that instead of having the Government facing the hazards of poor production it would be the Land Bank which would carry these hazards and these risks. It would be gratifying also to know what the department's attitude is to the system of land tenure in the Transkei with a view to having something to control under this bill. Impetus cannot operate where the farmer finds himself exploiting an acreage which is too small . Mr H. PAMLA: Intensive farming. Mr GUZANA: Someone speaks of intensive farming, but what can intensive farming produce on an

225

embodied in the bill? Surely we are not limited to what the hon. the Minister of Agriculture sought us to look at, but to look at all the principles. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is why you have a committee stage . Mr GUZANA: But we are dealing with principles and this is a principle of the bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are dealing with the bill clause by clause now. You started with the forfeiture which is not a principle. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, will you give me a ruling on this because I feel we are going to be circumscribed to what was said in the second reading speech. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, it is not by accident that the hon. Minister piloting the bill left this out in his second reading speech. It was because he knew the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would have a chance when the bill is in its committee stage to deal with the details of the clauses. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, is the hon. the Leader of the Opposition still prepared to continue with his remarks not on the principles of the bill? If he is still prepared to bring in things that are outside I rule that this will be considered during the committee stage, but you still have time to speak. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I shall try to stick to the speech. (Laughter) In terms of the speech the hon. the Minister of Agriculture indicates that he intends taking necessary steps to stimulate, organize and coordinate primary production . These are vague statements which we get year in and year out. What are the necessary steps to be taken? We know that something has to be done, but we want to know what it is. What is the necessary step to be taken to stimulate primary production? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Organizing. Mr GUZANA : Are you considering changing the system of land tenure? Are you contemplating propaganda to stimulate the people into activating their agricultural productivity? Because up to now we have had no stimulant other than pipesmoking over Radio Bantu. (Laughter) You have been told that agricultural co-operatives have been failing and your Table 14 shows us in your report for the year 1972/73 that whilst in Umzimkulu the sales were R52 000 plus, the outstanding accounts of the members is in the region of R99 000 with a corresponding "Outstanding Advances". Now I want to know what the necessary steps are in order to change that situation so that the sales are more than the outstanding amounts, for according to those figures we are running at a deficit. Now, what are the necessary steps? (Laughter) What sort of organization are you going to begin in making these agricultural co-operatives successful bodies? You relate, Sir, the stimulation, organization and co-ordination of primary production with secondary developments. Will you please spell out what is meant by these secondary developments? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: From the teagrowing. Mr GUZANA: May we know what secondary developments you are contemplating in order to stimulate wool, hides and skins, etc. ? My trouble with the Department of Agriculture is that it is thinking big but doing little (Laughter) Not so long ago we had a statement from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture indicating the stock losses that have been borne by farmers. (Interjections) Mr GUZANA: It means in effect that productivity then has been reduced considerably. (Intejections) When

area the size of a postage stamp? When we speak of intensive farming we must use that phrase relatively, because the farmer who is going to engage in intensive farming is a fulltime farmer who must produce sufficient to provide all his requirements educationally, socially and so on, and still earn enough to give him some comfort. In other words, the man must exploit an economic unit, use the land intensively and then produce adequately. I also wish to refer to a principle involved here relating to forfeiture of equipment to the department as a result of conviction and sentence. A court may declare certain equipment forfeited to the department and on appeal the order of forfeiture has been set aside. Whilst the original owner may recover the equipment there is the possibility of the equipment having been disposed of before the order setting aside the declaration has been made. He is entitled to claim the value of the equipment as at the time of the forfeiture but such value cannot be sufficient for purposes of replacement if he has to buy new equipment. Let me give an example. Let us say a tractor which has cost R2 500 has been forfeited to the department. At the time of the sale it realises R900 . The original owner may be reimbursed to the amount of R900, but he has got to find an extra R1 400 or R1 500 in addition to the R900 in order to buy the equipment which was otherwise still useful to him, and probably at the time it was declared forfeited he had not even paid the full purchase price of this tractor. On would have been happy if provision was made to the effect that when a declaration of forfeiture has been set aside any subsequent sale should be declared null and void and his equipment returned to him. I am always sceptical about these presumptions which throw an onus on the accused and this bill is not without it noxious provisions to that effect. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are you dealing with the clauses now? Mr GUZANA : It is a principle which is contained here so that I can amend. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Does it appear in the second reading? Mr GUZANA: Yes. All Ministers of State travel by devious ways to avoid loopholes and pitfalls and it is for us to point out these pitfalls. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: But it is not contained in the second reading. Mr GUZANA : But it is a principle in the bill and we are discussing the principles now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You will have your chance to mention that in the committee stage. Mr GUZANA: If we accept the principles now you will say my amendment is not relevant because I have accepted the principle. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, it will be relevant to the clause. Mr GUZANA : Let me speak to my point. I resent these presumptions in laws. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, while I was interjecting sitting down I thought the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would desist from discussing what is not being discussed. He is now dealing with the clauses and not with the principles. Mr GUZANA: Which clauses? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is no question of presumptions in the second reading. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. member must speak to the principles of the bill. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, isn't this a principle

226

the introduction of this agricultural measure at this stage of the economic and constitutional development of the Transkei is most welcome. In fact, the creation of a marketing place in the Transkei for African farmers is long overdue. As the hon. member for Qumbu has pointed out, the Transkeian farmers both parttime and fulltime have always expressed this need. It is also a truest and heaviest confession by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he says that unfortunately the agricultural industry has so far not progressed much further than the subsistence level. If we were an unparliamentary assembly - say a Rotary Stadium ―― the confession would have made me jump skyhigh. I think not only poor agricultural planning is probably responsible for this lamentable state of affairs - i.e. subsistence farming. Also, in a sense, the adoption of the African traditional way of farming with the aim to modernize it may be blamed for the farming for the family. Mr Chairman, I am no agriculturalist even in the lay sense, but I am unable to see much progress from the African farming system. You find a large stretch of land divided into small uneconomic holdings so that every person has his own. The fundamental question is whether every well-intentioned resident of a rural village is capable of farming. Where have you ever found everybody talented in farming, in that farming is an investment not only to support the farmer's family, but also the whole nation? I feel what happens to a lot of African students who enter the compass of Fort Hare happens to our average farmer. These students go as far as matric totally ignorant of their academic inclinations. When they get to Fort Hare they are disillusioned and have to switch over from one course to another. The farmer may be very keen on farming but he may come out a dismal failure in the economic sense of the word "farming". Then the market may fail in turn if its supplies have come from artificial farmers. Thanks that the co-operative movement seems to be conducive to some economic farming, some farmers in Qamata are said to have produced enough to look for a market. Though the open-field farming system has its own retarding effects, the markets may serve as a good incentive. A farmer who farms with the intention of taking his products to the market will definitely pull up his socks if he knows the marketing standard and the quantity that is going to earn him an adequate compensation for his labours. Now that we propose to have our own Marketing Act to regulate marketing activities in the Transkei, our farmers will be looked after and perhaps protected. Mr Chairman, as I have pointed out I am not even a layman on agricultural matters, I leave the platform for other hon. members to make their comments on the bill. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this is a great matter which is most important, because I am also a farmer. Firstly, I will refer to our livestock. Sometimes we slaughter stock for certain customary occasions and we sell the hides and skins to the traders. We are thankful to you, hon. Minister, for the creation of markets so that we should sell our products through the markets. I regard these traders as bloodsuckers. They suck our blood. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. members in the corner please give the speaker a chance. CHIEF MABANDLA: They only give us for our produce a certain percentage knowing well that they will sell our produce elsewhere for a greater amount. If possible our wool could be sent to East London to the woolbrokers where we would get reasonable prices for our wool. We would request the hon. Minister to send some officers to teach the people what to do, so that

we asked the department to do something about it they said it was a matter for the regional authorities. Mr Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture had commended the work done by the traders and shopkeepers in the Transkei in absorbing what agricultural products there were during their period of business in the Transkei. These shops have now been taken over by the XDC and a few of them have been sold to Transkeians. The result has been that the smalltime farmer who has taken his skins and hides to the shopkeepers now trading find that their goods are either rejected altogether or they are paid a lousy pittance for these skins . This has been a real setback on the economy of the Transkei and in particular on the subsistence level of the farmer in the rural area. In other words, because of the take-over there has been an economic recession. It is a pity that such a state of affairs should have been the result of Government policy where the people have had to draw the belt one notch in because traders who were carrying the peasant population have had to be withdrawn, and this Government has done nothing to cope with that economic recession. Mr H. PAMLA: Do you want the white traders to remain? Mr GUZANA: The hon. member for Umzimkulu asks me if I want the white traders to remain. I am not concerned whether a trader is black, white, blue or pink. I just want a trader, that is all. These people are constantly obsessed with the colour of the man in the job, instead of being obsessed with the quality of the man in the job. If we were to consider his complexion we would certanly eject him from this House. (Laughter) Last but not least, Sir, I think my next observation is relevant to this Marketing Bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am sure it is not that is why you say that. Mr GUZANA: We do need some planning in our different departments, but now I refer this particularly to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Some countries overseas, even Russia, have ten-year plans, three-year plans, five-year plans, even Israel, but we have not got a plan for our agricultural development in the Transkei, not even the suggestion of a plan where we can say, for instance, by 1978 we shall be producing so many mealiebags of mealies. I use the words "bags" because some of you do not understand the new measurements. (Laughter) We have no plan that in 1976 we shall have so many irrigation schemes which can handle so many hectares of land in the Transkei ; that be suchand-such a time we must have completed this plan, otherwise we have failed somewhere ; that if we follow a certain programme, by 1975 we shall be selling so many million more hides and skins than we are selling in 1974; that from our fisheries ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Whoa! What has that to do with the bill, anyway? Mr GUZANA: It has to do with marketing. In other words, we must have the thing to market and not have the law to market something which we do not have. When we ask you for necessary steps, you don't tell us what they are. (Interjections) Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, for a country to depend on overseas imports due to lack of co-ordinated efforts at the development of its own resources is a sorry state of affairs but it is worse when a country depends on markets outside its borders due to the absence of local markets . Proper economics requires the application of the principle of local products for local consumption and thereafter the surplus for consumers abroad. In view of these facts

227

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 23rd April 1974. TUESDAY, 23RD APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I crave the indulgence of this House to make a short announcement. On Saturday, 27th of this month, there is going to be a graduation ceremony at Fort Hare University and we feel greatly honoured when our leader, the Chief Minister of the Transkeian Territories will be honoured by being given an honorary Doctorate in Law. This is in recognition of the services he has rendered to the country as a whole. This also includes his scholastic achievements in education generally. I think this House should take the opportunity of expressing our gratitude to the University of Fort Hare. We hope the whole of South Africa will benefit by the conferring of this degree on the hon. the Chief Minister. This is to express our sincere gratitude. I hope many of our members will attend this graduation ceremony, although we are hampered by the restrictions on fuel. I hope the authorities will be kind enough to exercise leniency in this regard because I believe most of the members are keen to attend the graduation ceremony. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry had indicated to us that he was going to speak along these lines we should have asked him to postpone this announcement until tomorrow. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition had already had some idea on this matter for tomorrow. I would therefore ask the House to allow us to reserve our ideas on this matter until tomorrow. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

the producers should gain from their produce. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am now warning the hon. members for the last time. CHIEF MABANDLA: I will proceed, Mr Chairman. There is an hon. member from Umzimkulu who spoke about farms. It is very difficult to say anything about farmers because the people on your side, hon. Minister are unable to go to those farmers and give advice. Even if you make attempts to give some sort of assistance you will find these officers rather reluctant to do so because that particular administrative area has not been rehabilitated . We know that the soil gets washed away and the population is increasing, because there are fewer deaths. We would ask that attempts should be made to consult with those farmers. I do not know whether it is because of instructions from this department that those officers are unable to go to the farmers and show them what to do. We do not know how the sale of produce such as vegetables and stock can be effected unless you explain the advantages and disadvantages of rehabilitation, because most of the people say they get vegetables as well as good stock where the area is rehabilitated, but even with those who have not rehabilitated their areas the same conditions exist. We have all noted that observations have been made as far as the arable allotments are concerned, to see who is able to plough and who is not able to plough. I hope you will be in a position to do this after a number of years in regard to the rehabilitated areas - that is, to tell the people they will be given an allotment but if they fail to use it successfully it will be taken away from them. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is too much murmuring in this House. If it continues I will drive you all out. CHIEF MABANDLA : I don't know what they did during their lunch hour, Mr Chairman. I think it has affected them now. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Continue with your speech, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, as far as this marketing is concerned, stock sometimes dies probably as a result of some disease, and the vegetables do not flourish on account of drought, sometimes followed by hailstorms, and then you owe some debts which you have to pay. Having carried out your farming activities well, how will the Government assess what you would have gained from ploughing your land when there is a hailstorm ? Passing on to some other matter, leaving aside what these people have imbibed (Interjections), this is in connexion with tractors which are being used in our country. As we have no tractors here and our stock is dying, we would ask that tractors should be introduced everywhere in South Africa. One hon. member says we have tractors in the Transkei, but it is not so. We were referred to some place across the border.

QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 11 : Mr R. S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"(a) Would the hon. Minister report on the boreholes in Mbange Administrative Area, Ngqeleni? (b) Are these boreholes in working order? If not, how long have they not been in working condition? (c) What steps is the Department taking to place these boreholes in a working condition?" REPLY : "(a) There are no boreholes under the control of my Department in the Mbange Administrative Area, Ngqeleni. This question should have been directed to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . (b) Falls away. (c) Falls away." QUESTION NO. 12: Mr H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education :"(a) When are the two outstanding posts for Circuit Inspectors as stated in the Policy Speech going to be filled up? (b) Why was it necessary to leave the said Circuits vacant when appointments were made to others? REPLY : "(a) Appointments have now been made. (b) It was necessary to advertise these posts." Mr H. H. ZIBI : Arising from the reply, Mr Chairman, I believe I was here last year when the appointments were made, but the two referred to were left out and there had been no advertisement made prior to

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Is this the Marketing Bill? CHIEF MABANDLA : The reason we mention these tractors is because we are trying to improve our produce because we have no cattle to use. I said from the outset I would not be lengthy but I just wished to mention certain points . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, because of the noise you are making this afternoon. interfering with a chief of that stature, I am about to adjourn the House. (Laughter) Before I adjourn I want to warn you that no member should leave his seat until the Chairman or Deputy Chairman has gone out. The debate was adjourned . 228

In 1971 - 1972 for instance calf deaths represented 22% of the total cattle deaths, in 1972 1973 they represented 26%. The figures for Lamb and Kids are even higher. Taking the above into consideration, as well as the prices for livestock ruling during the two years under consideration one can estimate that the cash value of the losses was between R10 million and R15 million per annum . Over the last four years the average annual percentage deaths is as follows : Cattle 8,5% 28,0% Sheep Goats 22,5% Horses 12,5%

the appointment of the other circuit inspectors at the time. We were therefore keen to know why the two were left out when the others were filled. QUESTION NO. 13: Mr H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education :"(a) What are the prerequisites for the introduction of a adult night school? (b) Can any area organise one? (c) What are the educational requirements for teachers or instructors in such schools? (d) Is there any departmental remuneration towards the said teachers or instructors?" REPLY: "(a) That there is a need for a night school. (b) Yes, but such a night school would have to be registered with the Department. (c) In principle teachers would have to be suitably qualified to teach the subjects entrusted to them depending on the level of instruction.

QUESTION NO. 16: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) How many Transkeians citizens were repatriated from the Republic to the Transkei during the period from 1971 to date? (b) Will the Minister name two districts mostly affected and give the numbers of persons in those districts?" REPLY : "(a) 480. (b) Xalanga 114. - 111." Tsolo -

(d) In the case of a departmental night school, yes. An adult night school must, however, not be confused with classes conducted under the auspices of the Bureau for Xhosa Language and Culture. These classes are of totally different category and are intended to combat illiteracy and do not lead up to any examination. QUESTION NO. 14 : Chief Stanford Sigcau asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Does your Department know that a big group of residents in the Xura Administrative Area, in the Lusikisiki District, have not up to now been compensated for their orginal buildings? If so, what steps have been taken to remedy the situation ? If not, why not?” REPLY : "According to records at my disposal the last applica tion for compensation for buildings of 11 residents of Xura Administrative Area, Lusikisiki district was made on 21st March 1973 and, after investigation, was approved on 29th August 1973. Since then no further applications have been received from this area. This Department has no knowledge of a large group of residents in Xura Administrative Area waiting for compensation for their original buildings." QUESTION NO. 15: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:“(a) How many cattle, horses, sheep and goats have died during the years 1972, 1973 and part of 1974? (b) What is the cash value for these animals ?" REPLY : "(a) The number of deaths are as follows : 87 464 1/7/71 - 31/6/72 Cattle Horses 12 554 451 902 Sheep Goats 281 631 108 283 1/7/72 — 31/6/73 Cattle Horses 12 839 Sheep 563 891 Goats 246 167 1/7/73 ― 31/3/74 These figures are not available as the census is still being done. They will only be available at the end of May 1974. These figures do not include animals slaughtered for Human consumption. (b) It is extremely difficult to assess the cash value of these animals as very young animals form a large percentage of the total deaths each year,

QUESTION NO. 17: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Health :"(a) Who is responsible for the recruitment and appointment of the doctors for the Government Hospitals in the Transkei ? (b) How many of the 5 Principal medical specialists, 5 Principal medical officers, 11 Medical officers as reflected under Vote 7, page 65 of the Printed Estimates are for: (i) the Umtata Hospital, (ii) the Butterworth Hospital and (iii) the Tayler Bequest Hospital? (c) How many of the above mentioned doctors are on full time service in Umtata Hospital and in which posts? Can these be named please?” REPLY : "(a) The Public Service Commission, Umtata. (b) (i) Umtata Hospital : 5 Principal Specialists 1 Principal Medical Officer 5 Medical Officers. (ii) Butterworth Hospital :4 Principal Medical Officers. 2 Medical Officers. (iii) Tayler Bequest Hospital:1 Medical Officer. (c) No Transkeian incumbents; only seconded officials as follows : 1 Principal Specialist ― Mr. H. Cohen. 1 Principal Medical Officer - Dr. R. O. Harms. 1 Medical Officer - Dr. K. C. Rogers." TRANSKEIAN AUTHORITIES BILL: FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I will draw the attention of the House to page 20 of the rules of this House and the sections dealing with bills. In view of the shortness of this bill involving only two sections that is, the amending section and the short title

229

- I move that the rules of this House be waived so as to allow the Minister in charge of the bill to proceed with the second reading, the committee stage and the third reading of the bill today. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Is it contentious? CHIEF MINISTER: No, it is not contentious. It is just a small section dealing with the times when regional meetings are to be held. In any event, Mr. Chairman, let the House allow me to proceed with the second reading of the bill and if they have to consider any amendment it is a matter which can be considered at a later stage. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I wish to report that the bill has been accepted by the committee without amendment. TRANSKEIAN AUTHORITIES BILL : THIRD READING

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that the bill be read a third time. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. MARKETING BILL: SECOND READING The debate was resumed. Mr K. T. MBOBO: Mr Chairman and hon. members, while supporting this bill I must point out that we have to ensure the success of the products we are marketing. It is a painful and awe-inspiring spectacle to realise that within the last few years agricultural industry is failing to play the game pertaining to the demands of the time. There are reasons for this slow tempo and I will mention a few of them and sincerely hope this House will make an attempt to solve them. The small farmer does not own the land. He only has usufruct over it.. For him to invest his money by enriching it with fertilisers which agricultural science can afford him is a risk on his part because no sooner has he reaped a good harvest for three or four years than the headman will simply tell him that the land is being taken away from him and he has to give in to that because the land does not belong to him. So somebody else takes over this usufruct and the question is: Will the new owner be diligent enough to produce something from his land or will he simply sit and wait for the crop to be good enough without his exercising any energy? One would hope that he will produce double or even treble what the previous owner produced, but if otherwise it will remain unforgiveable and unforgettable. By this act of sabotage to his labour the previous owner will be transformed into some sort of malcontent and will be inclined to be sceptical about everything in his environment. He will despise and mistrust his headman and chief whose services are still essential to the future of our country. He will be reluctant to exert his labours on any other project. The dignity of labour becomes merely a paper philosophy. He will then propagate ideas either purporting to bring about complete land ownership or land collectivization which will take place under the guidance of the Government.

TRANSKEIAN AUTHORITIES BILL : SECOND READING CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this is a very short bill and there is nothing contentious about it. The only principle involved in the bill, as will be observed from the explanatory memorandum which is circulated among the members, is to make it not obligatory to hold regional meetings once every month as it is as present. In terms of section 24(4) of the Authorities Act 1965 a regional authority executive committee is responsible in the intervals between ordinary meetings of the regional authority for the exercise or performance of such powers, authorities or functions as the regional authority may from time to time determine and shall hold a meeting not less than once every month on such fixed day and at such hour as the head of the authority may from time to time appoint . It has become evident from the agendas and minutes of the various executive committees received in my department that the volume of business of the executive committees does not warrant the obligatory holding of executive committee meetings every month. In order to save time and money, Mr. Chairman, I accordingly move that the Act be amended as envisaged and that the bill be read a second time. This involves only one section of the bill, Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second this. In fact, it is necessary that work should be done but if there are no fixed times it means that all the work will come to a standstill. That is all I wish to say. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. Minister reply? CHIEF MINISTER : There is no need to reply, Mr Chairman. I have moved that the bill be read a second time and if it is agreed it should be read a second time and then we shall have the committee stage. The bill was read a second time.

While the population is growing every day the people must live, and it is the duty of the Government to support them. Another point is this: During the years of drought strange and obnoxious weeds have made an appearance on our land. They impose the same problems as are imposed by ticks on our livestock. Countermeasures to destroy these should be adopted as soon as possible otherwise the agriculturalists will receive little value for their products, and pastoral farming is actually the backbone of our economy. Tribal and regional authorities I suppose have requested the people to take the matter seriously because this state of affairs is detrimental not only to them but to the country as a whole. These weeds also lessen the value of our wool by half. I therefore request the Government to enforce the tribal and regional authorities to apply stricter measures in that regard. As you all know, we use cattle for ploughing and these play an important part in our agricultural industry. Recently, however, everyone is aware that the numbers have diminished and this means the people

TRANSKEIAN AUTHORITIES BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE

CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, what I said at the second reading applies to this committee stage, and I do not feel it is necessary for me to expatiate any further. I move that section 1 of this bill be adopted. Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to.

230

who took part in this discussion. They displayed great interest and understanding. We have no option but to provide legislation to control the marketing of our agricultural products. This was necessitated by the repealing of the Republican Marketing Act. Remarks were made that we are introducing this Act when there is nothing to market, but the fact remains that the Republican Act was applied throughout the Republic, even in the Transkei despite the fact that there was nothing much to offer. Our mealies fell under the Marketing Act, meat, hides and skins fell under the Marketing Act and were subject to its provisions. Today everyone is enjoying the fruits of the Marketing Act. During the 1950s when there was a boom in the wool industry, when a bag of wool fetched between R50 and R60, the wool levy amounted to about 35c a bag and this accumulated levy was handed over to the Transkei. At that time it was said that the beneficiaries could not be traced individually, while the white farmers were given their share, so this money was handed over to the General Council. It is the same money which has started the co-operative societies fund, where one just goes and asks for credit to buy fertilizer, seed, etc. This applied to everyone whether one owned a sheep or not. It was also given to anyone whether he spent his money on the Rand in the shebeens. Today, we are able to finance our co-operatives through that fund . Hon, members should be aware of the goodness of the Marketing Act. Without the Marketing Act the farmers will not be able to realise good prices, and many members in this House complained that the traders were sucking their blood. One of the hon. members here admitted that the traders were sucking their blood. One of the hon. members have admitted that the traders enjoyed the "agterskot" which was handed over by the Wool Board. Those moneys never reached the wool farmer and nobody was able to trace whether the farmer got the benefit from his wool. Under the Marketing Act such things will be a thing of the past, because the marketing is going to be regulated and the price will be stipulated by the department. Coming to the remarks of the hon. member for Qumbu, he suggested that co-operative societies must be inspected regularly. He suggests that there are irregularities practised by some of the officials of the cooperative societies. For the greater part we rely on the officials that is, the chairman and the secretary -

have no means of ploughing their land. Cattle are very expensive to buy these days and the result is that most of the land that should be ploughed is not ploughed at all. Most people cannot afford tractors and the land therefore remains unused. It goes back to the fact that collectivization would be the best method of using that land, so if there are no people strong enough to take over these lands then the Government must do it for them and socialize the land, using only modern methods of farming. (Interjections) The shopkeepers have for so long thrived on the miseries of the poor people that when co-operative societies make an attempt to raise the standard of living they feel that these co-operatives are depriving them of their right to exploit the people, and every time there has been a farmers' co-operative which has tried to buy seed and fertilizer from elsewhere they try to sabotage these efforts. They are no different from undertakers who, while they sympatrise with the bereaved, still feel that the luck is on their side. In fact, as long as there is drought they always feel happy and sure of success in their business. Their prices for fertilizers are exorbitant so the people can never afford to buy them and they remain undernourished as they are. I am sure that this Bill will embrace all these matters and make it possible that the produce of the people will be sold to the best advantage. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I also wish to add some advice. As we have gone right round the country, mention is made about certain things which would cause people to plough their own land and the places where this produce could be sold but we don't know where we will plough because the lands we have at present are so very small. I cannot understand those people who own large farms because they don't know yet how to cultivate lands. However, they can obtain the services of the Italians to do their work (Laughter) because it is such people as the Italians who know how to produce vegetables. I don't know what sort of cultivation can be done by people who are in the rehabilitated areas and own very small pieces of land. There is the other aspect. Our lands are covered with dongas and nothing is done to reclaim that soil. If attention is paid to those dongas, however, and they could be filled in we would be in a position to have some produce to market. There was a commission known as the Tomlinson Commission which advocated that the people should be given adequate land to plough. From that report it appeared that the people would be given enough land to use, but when this Government took over they decided to take away most of the arable allotments for afforestation. (Laughter) Now we are in a fix because we do not know how to cultivate with such small pieces of land. It is clear that now that some of the farmers have sheep, shearing sheds should be put up so that the wool can be marketed properly. Demonstrators should be used to show the people how to shear their wool and market it. I will not be lengthy but I am merely giving this advice. These co-operative societies should order a fertilizer immediately it is needed by the people and to those people who have no means of buying fertilizer it should be supplied on loan with the hope that it will be repaid, in order that they can produce something from their lands. I will not stop talking about afforestation, but I say it is not only bluegums which should be planted but also wattle. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon, members, I will now ask the hon. Minister to please give us his reply. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to commend the hon, members

to do their duty. If they do not pull their weight then there will be losses, as has been mentioned in connexion with the Fingoland Co-operative Society. I can assure the hon. member that the department will do its best to inspect these co-ops. Then he also remarked about the noxious weeds that are not destroyed. As a matter of fact, noxious weeds are becoming a menace to our wool industry. They also reduce its value. Formerly the farmers were required to destroy noxious weeds on their lands. Lately, however, there has been a laxity in the destruction of noxious weeds . I can assure hon. members that our wool industry will not prosper until we destroy these noxious weeds. We do not want to revert to the time when our wool industry had a bad name on the market. It was labelled "Transkei wool" and had a very bad name. He also remarked that more value should be placed on hides and skins than on the meat. I think it was a slip of the tongue on his part because today it is very hard to get even one kilo of meat for your household. I must admit that our people are very careless in skinning their animals, whether sheep or cattle, with the result that our hides and skins do not find very good markets. It will be necessary that our people adopt new methods of skinning their animals. I do not think hon. 231

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: My information is that these were distributed. Mr ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, we only have the second reading copies and not the bill. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Secretary tells me that the actual bill was distributed and if you have lost it it is all the better for the Minister, so he can push it through. Mr D. H. MLONYENI: Mr. Chairman, we have here the Minister's speech for the second reading of the Road Traffic Amendment Bill 1974. In other words, we have not got what you are reading. Mr ZIBI: That is the position this side. We do not have a copy of the bill at all. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House will bear with us a little. Hon. members, this is what was distributed to the members - the explanatory memorandum. Mr ZIBI: Yes, we have got that. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: And the actual bill is pinned on to this memorandum. We shall now continue. On Clause 1 MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, clause 1 amends section 65 of the principal Act. This amendment is consequential to the deletion of subsection (2) of the said section 65 by section 10 of Act No. 3 of 1972. The repealed subsection (2) of section 65 required the applicant for a driver's licence to surrender to the registering authority a driver's licence already held by him and which would be superseded by the driver's licence for which the application was made. The provisions thereof could however no longer be applied when the system requiring a driver's licence to be contained in an identity document was introduced. This led to the repeal of the said subsection (2). I move the adoption of this section. Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2

members are aware that the white farmers derive huge incomes from their hides and skins and the Transkei being poor as it is, I think we must mend our ways in this regard. The hon, member also asked that those traders who gave good service should be appointed to committees and these marketing schemes. I can promise this House that if I am still here, as I am, they will be the last people to be appointed because of their tricks and the large amounts of money they have derived from the "agterskot". Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Umzimkulu suggested that there should be agricultural advisory boards to advise the people of the times to plough their lands and when and what to plant. I can assure the hon. member that as far as we are concerned we will do everything to get the farmers to co-operate with the department in all these activities. Mr. Chairman, coming to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said, he asked what the department's view was on land tenure. This is a very thorny question. It is very difficult for any Government to say definitely what its attitude is towards land tenure. I know that hon. members are keen to have freehold ownership of the land, but our set-up is wellknown to everyone. I think we must consult the chiefs about this matter because the matter revolves on them and I think some of the hon. members are, fortunately, subjects of the chiefs and they can advise the chiefs about this matter. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition also wanted to advise the Government not to be over enthusiastic about the implementation of some of the measures of this Act. We are always very cautious in our movements with the people and it is not our wish to push our policy. Our policy is to educate the people in our activities. He also said that we are expecting to introduce the Marketing Act when the land allotted to each individual is as large as a postage stamp. You know, hon. members, I have been to Natal at some stage and I saw the Indian farmers ploughing smaller lands than those used by our farmers here, and you know how prosperous they are. It is our honest wish that we should get our farmers to work as hard as the Indian farmers. Hon. members, I think I have covered most of the ground that was debated by the members in this House and I now move that this bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman,

Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that about threequarters of the House does not have copies of the bill we would crave the indulgence of the hon. Minister that he motivates every clause. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, the information I have is that these were distributed amongst members and you have lost them apparently. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Even so, Mr. Chairman, it is the right of hon. members to call for motivation from the Minister. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : All right, then we proceed. Does the House agree to the adoption of this section? Mr MADIKIZELA: An application has been made by the hon. member for Mount Fletcher that the hon. Minister motivates each clause.

I propose that the committee stage will be on Thursday or so soon thereafter. The Assembly adjourned.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister, in order to get me out of this trouble, I am afraid will have to motivate.

AFTERNOON SESSION ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House convert itself into committee. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee Mr G. G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, we would like to follow something that we can understand. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does that mean that you have not got copies of the bill? Mr H. H. ZIBI: Yes, we only have the second reading speech, not the bill itself.

MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, the amendment in clause 2 is consequential to the amendment of section 140 of the principal Act in that the terminology is being improved. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, "Such local authorities shall keep proper books of account of payments into and withdrawals from the fund." We are lost, Mr. Chairman, and we ask for motivation. MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, at the present moment this amendment is purely academic of nature but with the developing of the towns in the Transkei it will eventually become applicable. The

232

whole purpose of this clause is to release the traffic officers from keeping separate books. In other words, they have merely to keep one book. Mr ZIBI: Who is going to be responsible for the keeping of the books? Who, by the way, does it now and who is going to do it then? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : The local authorities will be responsible, Mr. Chairman. Mr ZIBI: If it be the local authority, what do we understand by the "local authority"? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I think the hon. member understands that in any district either you have a VMB or a municipality. That is termed the "local authority". Mr ZIBI : Tribal authorities are also local authorities. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the explanation given by the hon. the Minister of the Interior is quite clear, that a VMB or a municipality is a local authority in these towns. Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4

marked in the late evenings and early mornings when drinking drivers are most likely to be on the roads. In the first year casualties fell by 10% in total and by 33% between 10 p.m. and 4 a.m. In 1970 casualties for the late night period were still 12% lower than a year prior to the Act coming into force. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, we are very grateful to the hon. Minister at least for the quantity in tots. Now, what about the quantity in Jabulani and other concoctions? (Interjections) I am saying so because we have quite big numbers of our drivers who have not been adequately schooled to appreciate percentages and some of them do not take spirituous liquor but they do take the African stuff. To come nearer home, couldn't you tell us how much we can take of the ordinary stuff such as Jabulani? MINISTER OF ROADS : As far as that question goes I think my department is going to do everything in its power to go about explaining how much of these liquors can be taken. Clause 4 put and agreed to. Clauses 5 and 6 put and agreed to. Long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, I wish to report that this bill has been approved by this committee without amendment. MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will be tomorrow.

Mr H. H. ZIBI : We are not too sure how much alcohol has to be in the particular individual, Mr. Chairman. I think it was canvassed during the second reading and we were hoping that some convincing explanation would be given to us. Motivation, please. MINISTER OF ROADS: Clause 4 amends section 140 of the principal Act in two respects. Firstly, the terminology thereof has been improved by changing, inter alia, all references to percentages to references to concentrations . This has been done in consequence of a suggestion by the Metrication Board of the South African Bureau of Standards. The second and more important amendment is the reduction of the permissible percentage, now concentration, of alcohol in the blood of the driver of a vehicle. The existing stipulation which makes it an offence to drive a vehicle on a public road if the percentage of alcohol in the blood of a driver of such vehicle is not less than 0,15 is being amended to make it an offence if the concentration of alcohol in the blood is not less than 0,08 gram per 100 millilitres.

PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY The debate was resumed. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Unfortunately, hon. members, the Chairman of the House is not present and we have no record of who the last speaker was, so to start the ball rolling I will give a chance to a speaker from the Government side. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am very much pleased to speak on this motion. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : To support it? Mr DIKO: Definitely I do not support the motion. There is a point I want to explain to the hon. members of the House and I wish them to know and keep for the rest of their time. The idea of a parliament with two houses is a western idea and most probably the idea of "lordism" comes from England. (Laughter) That is exactly what I mean, as the hon. member is saying, in your civilization you must not assimilate and swallow everything that is done by the Whites. There are things that are fundamentally African so when we are building a state as we are now doing, we have to take good things from the West and good things from the African way of life and build a complete whole that will be understood by everybody. There is nothing to quarrel with the idea of chiefs being in the same House with the commoners. That is exactly what I want to explain to the hon. members of the Opposition . Look round the history of the development of the African people from all tribes. You have never found a society among the Africans where an important issue was under discussion and the presence of the chief was not required. (Interjections) Now I am telling you and I want you to understand that the first question of the people when they are discussing an issue, they want to know what is the opinion of the chief. Now, the "it" in the case is the "it" in the matters of a tribe in all events and in all tribal functions - the chief

Through intensive research it has been established that the figure 0.15 is too high and that even though the blood alcohol content has not reached the figure of 0,15 these drivers remain a potential danger on the road. In countries such as Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Yugoslavia, Finland and the state of Victoria in Australia the permissible blood alcohol limit is 0,05, whereas in Great Britain, Denmark, Canada, Germany and the state of Utah in America the permissible level is 0,08. In Yugoslavia, Norway and Sweden there is a total restriction on professional drivers and in Czechoslovakia there is a total restriction on all drivers.

The diminution of the blood alcohol level is strongly recommended by the National Road Research Institution, the Scientific Industrial and Research Board, as well as the National Traffic Safety Board. All instances in the Republic of South Africa have accepted the recommendation . The figure recommended is 0,08 and this figure is now taken up in the amendment before the Assembly. One-and-a-half tots of spirits will not amount to 0,08 gram. It is for drinkers the figure quoted in the latest legislation on drinking. In a townplanning pamphlet in Britain the following is quoted: "For the first time a maximum permissible blood alcohol level for drivers was laid down at 0,08 gram in every 100 millilitres of blood . There was an immediate drop in casualties after the Act came into force, most 233

was always among his counsellors. Now these modern people have an erroneous idea that the chief goes and sits in the house and the counsellors go and report to to him . Now, those are the modern people, the civilized people, the educated people who have got that idea, but take it from me, it is not the case with the African people. Right from Swaziland, Zululand, Pondoland, Xhosaland and Tembuland the chief is always in council. So the people who are taken in by ideas of the western way of life must take the example from Lesotho and all the other countries where we have got revolt after revolt. Now those revolts and quarrels are caused by the very fact that they have adopted a system which excludes the chief from the people. I am speaking as a veteran in African customs and I want this House to make no mistake. If you take away the chiefs from the commoners there is going to be revolution in South Africa. (Interjections )

cerned a chief was always among his people when an important issue is under discussion. CHIEF MINISTER : Hear, hear. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: He has got no right to be involved in politics . Mr DIKO: Now you are talking about involvement in politics now, during the days of Faku and Hintsa no-one could have said : This is political, this administrative. (Interjections) Let me tell them further, a chief in the olden days was the symbol of statehood and all powers were invested in these paramount chiefs. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr DIKO: Now, the administration of that particular race or nation was definitely in the chief. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I want to implore all the members to give each member a chance to voice his opinion. Mr DIKO: Mr Chairman, you know some people get so excited, get so heated that when you analyse what an important motion this is you realise that the fundamental reason for their being heated is their hatred of chieftainship. It is the lack of respect for the chief. So now that we have come to our senses we want one Assembly. Now, let that be very clear one House. We shall be unilateral. (Laughter) We want one House - chiefs, elected members in this Assembly. For the last ten years the Transkei has debated most peacefully and in a dignified manner in the presence of these chiefs, and they have contributed their best. The commoners have contributed their best, so I will be very sorry if the hon. members of the Opposition will not take this to heart.

CHIEF MINISTER: Hear, hear. Mr DIKO: So to avoid any misunderstanding, any bloodshed, we must follow the system we have inherited from our ancestors. Always be with your chiefs in your council. The other day the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland asked this question: Why do you want to counsel apart from your chiefs? Why do you want this upper house? Why do you want to put your chief in cold storage? What functions are they going to have there, knowing they are going to be stooges there, going to be powerless and all the power will be in the Assembly ? Now, I want everybody to understand the idea of an upper house is just the luxury of the rich people. I want the hon. member from Nyandeni, the lawyer, to tell me in actual fact if he has ever seen two "inkundlas" in Nyandeni. I ask him: Is that Pondo custom? I ask the hon. member from Qaukeni : Have you ever seen two "inkundlas" in Qaukeni? Take the regional authority as it is now. All regional authorities are following the custom and the usual tradition of the African people. Now, some idiot here says that is just existing in administration. You have been urbanized and you don't know the custom of the African people. Don't speak nonsense in this House. (Laughter) Where do you get the idea that regional authorities exist only as administrative bodies? Regional authorities do not administer. That is where every suggestion we have got in that region must first be discussed and moulded before it is passed on to the authorities. It is the backbone of that tribe or tribes that compose that regional authority. Now, honestly, I want you to be sensible. It is no use being taken away by European ideas or Western ideas. Some people have read the history of the Tembus, the Pondos or the Xhosas. Go back to the days of Hintsa ― have you ever found, Ramsay, (Laughter) in the days of Hintsa where counsellors discussed whatever matter was put without the

CHIEF MINISTER: Tell them you are speaking as a member of a royal house. Mr DIKO: Yes, they seem to forget I am speaking now as someone of royal blood, (Laughter) as a man who knows the feelings of the people. At no stage will the people accept anyone calling a meeting in the location ― they want to know where the chief is. They go along with the chief, they go along with the headman, who is a royalist. You must not be mistaken by them at times drifting along with the stream of Western civilization. I once thought the chiefs must be put in an upper house, but on thinking in the final stages now when we are going to our independence I stand up to say: Let us have one House and the chiefs and the commoners will be in that one House. So I want the hon. Chief Majeke to understand that the sooner he comes over to the idea of one house the better it is for the Transkei. Yes, I know some people will not take me to heart but I am speaking seriously. In Uganda there has been revolution - did you know it? In Ghana there has been revolution. Now, Ghana and Uganda, you do not know the difference. Just look at this man. (Laughter) Now, I want you to know Lesotho is the latest to be given independence, and there has been revolution. Yes, you know the revolution which was there which is silly because when a commoner is given power he will not want any other man to enjoy that power but himself, so I want the members of the Transkei to take it seriously. A commoner once given power will not want to give up that power. A chief at all times has no ambition to hold power forever, and I am talking about a chief. A chief has always had that power from birth. He is not worried that some day this power will go away from him, so, you people, a chief is never a fool. (Laughter)

presence of the chief? Now, look at those people. (Interjections) Listen, listen! There are people who read (like my learned friend here) books without differentiating between a novel and a history book. (Laughter) That is a novel, not a history book. (General disorder) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, hon. members.

Mr DIKO: I was quoting Hintsa and I will continue. From tomorrow he must lead me to understand . A novelist speaks on ideas he has got and ideas with which he distorts the true facts which existed at the time. I am trying now to tell the hon. members of the House that in so far as African tradition is con-

234

motion which stated that all the labourers should be given an increment in their pay. Now when these two houses are created it would mean that the chiefs will receive a higher remuneration, and where will we get these funds ? DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Continue, hon. member. Mr XOBOLOLO : The chief I have referred to , Chief Mphaphudi of Lebowa, is a member of parliament and he supports our aims. The hon. members of this House should realise that we will continue bringing this motion forward until we are successful. If the Government side introduce this same motion during our next sitting we will be prepared to support it because we are prepared to accept the truth. We do not mind who it comes from. When we attain independence it is becoming that everything we do should be something worth while. It is true that they clamoured for independence, but they stated that they had no funds. Each speaker when discussing the question of independence started to shake off separate development from their shoulders. (Interjections) Lastly, Mr Chairman, I am going to say, let it be clear and made very clear that there is a very great difference between a chief and his counsellor. I therefore request the hon. members not to mix up the idea of chiefs staying together with their counsellors.

A chief is never a fool, believe me, because a chief keeps wise counsellors around him. Now these civilized people who want to come when we get independence must be sifted and we take into this Chamber fellows who have not communistic ideas. You see, I am not only a royalist, I am a capitalist and a Christian and I want the Transkei when our day comes to be always a peaceful country, where a man who has amassed wealth must keep it and enjoy it. I do not want communism in this country. So you must withdraw this motion, you people on the Opposition side. I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as I have to speak just after the last speaker, I wish first to support what has been said by him in this House. He stated, Mr Chairman that this motion which relates to two houses for this Assembly is a most important matter that is to create an upper house as has been done in the Republic. All the members in this House know that we stand for multi-racialism and when we speak to this motion in regard to an upper house we are assisting the ruling side. I would therefore request hon. members when they speak to this motion not to oppose it. As the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said when we were discussing the question of independence, we should hasten these matters. Similarly, as we have piloted this motion relative to an upper house and a lower house they should accept it. They already know that Lebowa entertains the same idea. The hon. the Minister of Education mentioned that we are worried about the great number of chiefs on the Government side. We are not worried about the numbers of the chiefs and elected members in this House. We know that their numbers are greater and even if the chiefs should be placed in the upper house they will still have a number left on their side. What they are afraid of is that any piece of legislation which is discussed by the lower house will have to be approved by the upper house. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. chief from Qamata, please keep quiet. Mr XOBOLOLO : We find it unbecoming for chiefs in this House because a commoner may address a chief in a most unbecoming manner. We thus believe that we shall be giving respect to the chiefs by placing them in an upper house. Much has been said about refrigerating the chiefs by placing them in an upper house. I do not know where this freezing will take place because even if an upper house is created it will not be the first time. As we have now reached the stage of gaining independence we have nothing against the chiefs. What we are concerned with is to give due respect to the chiefs by placing them in this position. My membership in this House is on the same level as that of the chiefs when we are together in this House. As long as we are in this House it should be forgotten that we are not on the same level with our chiefs. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr XOBOLOLO : If we give them this upper house it will keep them on a higher rung than we are. If these chiefs fear the cold we will request the hon. the Chief Minister to provide good heaters in the upper house. (Laughter) The hon. the Chief Minister has performed his duties to the extent that we have reached this stage. We now desire that he should occupy an upper house as a chief. In Lebowa there is a chief by the name of Mphaphudi. He has told everyone that today the educated and enlightened people should be given the opportunity of governing the country. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI: Mr Chairman, I wish to ask the speaker this question, as they had a

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member for Willowvale either stay where he is or go back to his seat and then he can talk when he gets back to his seat. Mr XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, the fear has been expressed that we may discuss matters unbeknown to the chiefs if they are in a separate house. I wish to draw the attention of the chiefs to the fact that this is a house of parliament. It is not the "inkundla" which is generally enjoyed by people sitting next to the stockkraal. Everything that is discussed here will have to be reported to the upper house. Mr C. DIKO : Tell us what you want to do in the absence of the chiefs. Mr XOBOLOLO : Hon. members must know that this is not a private house or a tribal authority. It is a House of Assembly. If we occupy the lower house we will make arrangements for their salaries to be increased, because they are afraid to do this for themselves. Mr DIKO: Can't you raise their salaries in the present set-up? Mr XOBOLOLO : Even if we do introduce such a motion they would turn it down because they fear to do so . CHIEF M. MAGADLA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am somewhat confused because the mover of the motion is not present in the House. There is an old adage to the effect that the good that a man does is oft interred with his bones and the bad lives on in the memories of the people. I find this is the second epoch of Nongqause, the event which happened in 1857. When Sir George Grey died the bad that remained has now been inherited by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The hon. members of the Opposition do not state exactly which chief is obstructing their progress in this House and why they should advocate the idea of the chiefs being put in a fridge. Mr Chairman, I would like to warn the hon. member for Mqanduli who, unfortunately, is not present. I understand he is a Christian. Herod killed a lot of children but he was after the blood of one child. It appears there is only one chief who worries them in this House. (Laughter) Now, Mr Chairman, it is wonderful how an event which happened in the past does recur. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition in his reply to the hon. the Chief Minis-

235

will be members of the upper house by right of their status. (Interjections) These hon. members are repeatedly asking about money. We have often told you that there was money long ago. Our grandfathers paid taxes long ago but the Republican Government only waits for your request. (Interjections) Please, hon. members, just keep quiet. I will appeal to you, Mr Chairman, these hecklers are putting me off my form. When this upper house has been created then the members in the lower house will not be afraid of expressing their opinions lest they annoy their chiefs. The elected members will be able to represent the electorate as they have been sent into this House by the electorate. We, the chiefs, by virtue of our status will be members of the upper house. We are attempting to enable the elected members to voice their opinions freely. We have been dealing with this matter for a very long time and I hope the members will regard this matter in a serious manner. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr E. A. PINYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. member for Qumbu has alleged that the disturbances which occurred in Eastern Pondoland were caused by the paramount chief. That is not true. Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, If I am not making a mistake I think the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland had his time to speak on this motion. I do not see why, therefore, the representative of the hon. Paramount Chief has a second chance to speak. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Thank you , Chief Dumalisile, for reminding me. The next speaker, not the hon. Mr Pinyane. Mr W. Z. LUFUFENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am going to address this House, but will take no sides whatsoever. Nevertheless I shall invite every member in this House to pay particular attention to what I am going to say. As we are now discussing the feasibility of an upper house and a lower house we must really try to pursue this question diligently. As we are on the verge of gaining independence in 1976 we must deliberate very, very clearly. There is a great difference between the chiefs and the counsellors. As we are counsellors here we have left our chiefs at home and are discussing our affairs. I want to know from this House what it is that they fear as chiefs. (Interjections) As we are here together we are just members of this House. I would urge this House that as we need . . . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : As Chairman I must guide this House, hon. members. We do not want a wirewalker here. The discussion is either for or against. We do not want a middle line. Mr LUFUFENI : My explanation is simply that I support the motion from the hon. members opposite. (Interjections) If you really are aware of the fact that you are chiefs you should not rub shoulders with commoners. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr LUFUFENI : What is it that you fear about an upper house for the chiefs, as all the motions emanating from the lower house will go to the upper house? I have been elected by the Tembus to come here and they did not just elect me as a blanket to cover everything. A chief is created a chief and the elected members here are elected by the people. They cannot be rubbing shoulders with the commoners here. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I want the members to please give the speaker a chance. Mr LUFUFENI : Mr Chairman, I shall not continue with that, but as we value chieftainship we differ sincerely. As we are moving towards complete indepen-

ter said there was something like physical terrorism. Now, by the way he is presenting this whole matter is he not attempting to terrorize the minds of the chiefs ? (Laughter) In other words, is he not engaging in sabotage activities? Mr Chairman, we are very anxious and suspicious that the protagonists of the idea of expelling the chiefs from the lower house have an ulterior motive, as though there is something they want to do in the absence of the chiefs. Over and above that, Mr Chairman, we are not unmindful of the manner in which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has presented the case. Those tactics were exactly the same as those employed by Sir George Grey. There is something on which we have an apprehension in regard to the motion by the hon. member for Mqanduli. Does he think that a chief is not a human being because he is born to that status? A chief has an important rôle to play in the customs of his people because in some of the most important functions connected with ritual matters he has a finger in the pie. Where have you ever heard of a situation where a chief was isolated from his people? If a Chief is unable to live among his subjects, how will he know who are for him or against? Those tribes whose customs DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, this motion has nothing to do with the circumcision of boys. Stick to the motion, please. CHIEF MAGADLA : Mr Chairman, I come back to the motion then. We are suspicious that there is an ulterior motive in regard to these chiefs being placed in an upper house. In that respect I remember what the hon. chiefs from Qumbu said in regard to chiefs, when he mentioned the elections where chiefs took an active part in threatening people to vote one way or the other. He referred to the Pondoland disturbances and we understood him to mean that once a person is a stumblingblock to the people that person must be removed. The general imression created was that it was the chief or the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni who was instrumental in creating the situation leading to those disturbances. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : No, I did not say that. CHIEF MAGADLA: It is one of the reasons why we are very suspicious of the motive behind the motion to remove these chiefs to an upper house, because they will be strangled . CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to speak on this motion because, as you know, it is a very reasonable motion and has been correctly piloted. Firstly, I do not know why the hon. members on that side should entertain any fear with reference to the creation of an upper house for the chiefs. It is not uncommon to hear members opposing remarks when a chief speaks, ordering him to sit down as though he was a baby. Sometimes in this House with the House full of people you hear someone insulting his chief. That is indicative of lowering the dignity of the chief or paramount chief. In any gathering where councillors sit together in the presence of the chief it often happens that the councillors come together and consult the chief in order to find out his views. It is the chief's duty then to see what is right and what is wrong. That is perfectly identical with what is now being proposed, that there should be an upper house where the chiefs will sift what has been dealt with in the lower house. It surprises me to hear members wanting to know what these commoners are going to discuss alone. The commoners are going to discuss politics as we are now doing. When such an upper house has been created, only the elected members will become members of the lower house and all the chiefs 236

dence it is not everyone who will come to this House - even those who speak peculiar English. Nevertheless the chiefs will come exactly as they are now. They will not be sifted but they should be placed where they can be together. Mr G. N. SIPUNZI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this is a very important motion. I once lived among people who live in a place where they are in constant fear. People would even run away from their own shadows. It is not usual that when a person is told: Here is a medicine; drink it because it will make you better - or: Here is a medicine costing R100 - he will choose the expensive medicine every time. We are here on this side with chiefs of royal descent and we also have paramount chiefs. Just now I am sitting between chiefs and they do not come from a land where fear reigns. Mr Chairman, if you live in a bad environment your dignity is lowered. Even where you now sit, Mr Chairman, you are worried because of the noise emanting from the chiefs. (Laughter and interjections) The reason why they are the source of all the noise is that instead of being in a house of their own they have been brought down to street level. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you please withdraw that. Mr SIPUNZI: I think I will leave that alone Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please withdraw it straightforward. Mr SIPUNZI : I do so, Mr Chairman. Coming back to the motion, if we as counsellors are making arrangements for an upper house for the benefit of the chiefs I think we are placing them in their rightfull place, which is a place of respect. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr SIPUNZI : One hon. member stated that it has never occurred that even when a case is being discussed the chiefs should not be among their counsellors. I dispute such a statement because even while they are heard the court cases are proceeding. (Interjections) Please stop heckling, hon. Mr Diko, because even when you spoke you said nothing. I have been disappointed in that hon. member who has shown that he cannot give honour to his chief. Nowhere will you find that a chief or paramount chief will go on his own to the "inkundla" when a case is on. If such a case should be brought to the chief or paramount chief he will call upon the counsellors to deal with that particular case. Not one chief can dispute what I have stated, except that there might have been some liquor imbibed . (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: It is the chiefs. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will send all these chiefs out. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Send them to the upper house. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr SIPUNZI : Mr Chairman, what I am saying now I refer particularly to the chiefs. Though the chiefs realise that this is a very good motion they entertain some fear that there is going to be some terrorism, Mr Chairman, in the lobby I was talking to two of the chiefs and they confirmed what I say as the truth. I can name the two chiefs who are presently in the Assembly. (General disorder) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, order. Mr SIPUNZI: However, Mr Chairman, those two chiefs should not worry because I will not name them. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, there is a phrase in En237

and that is one of glish - "inferiority complex" the incurable diseases. It is their fear that if they are placed in an upper house their weaknesses will not be covered up because even in this very House some of them have never even uttered a word. Nay, Mr Chairman, we can pardon them because of what they can achieve, if only to make unnecessary noise in order that their presence should be felt. I can see that they fear, in fact they tremble, because they think I am going to say something about them, but it will not be an empty threat. If they continue heckling me I will point them out. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 24th Aril 1974. WEDNESDAY, 24TH APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . NOTICES OF BILLS MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on 30th April 1974 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkeian Motor Carrier Transportation Act 1972. NOTICE OF MOTION Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I ask leave of this House to give notice of motion. I further request and move that the rules of this House be suspended so that I get on with this motion at the same time as I gave notice. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, here we are being given a cat in the bag. No intimation as to what type of motion this is, and we do not know what the urgency of it is. How are we expected to consent or otherwise? Just an intimation to know whether the motion is urgent or not. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, this motion comes from a responsible member of this House • MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Responsible enough to hide the nature of the motion. Mr GUZANA: . . . because it tends to have a personal touch in it, and I don't want to anticipate the content. May I be allowed to move this in good faith? CHIEF MINISTER: I am certain that this side of the House will have no objection to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition moving what he considers an urgent motion. Agreed to. CONGRATULATIONS TO PARAMOUNT CHIEF K. D. MATANZIMA Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move this motion:- "That this House records its warm congratulations to Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima, B.A. (S.A.) on the signal and literary honour to be bestowed upon him on Saturday, 27th April 1974, when the University of Fort Hare at its Graduation Ceremony will confer on him the degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa)." Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am assured in my own mind that this is probably the first time when I am going to carry this House with me. (Laughter) The motion speaks for itself and I hope that the Council for Fort Hare will not take it amiss that we should anticipate their citation listing the reasons why it is conferring this degree on Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima. They will speak their mind at Fort Hare, but we are, I think, entitled to speak our own mind this end. After the University of Fort Hare

am correct, Sir, you are the first member of a royal house in the Transkei to graduate from Fort Hare. When other chiefs have dissipated their minds and bodies in enjoying the perks of royalty, you subjected yourself to the discipline of the school, and that is responsible for what you are today. Your example, Sir, has not been without a follower, for on 27th April 1974 at Fort Hare with you shall stand a son of the royal house of Nyandeni, namely, Pondolwendlovu Zanembeko Ndamase, who will be graduating as a B Juris graduand. He is a child of the royal house of Nyandeni and he is continuing at Fort Hare doing the LLB. degree and, I repeat again, you set the example for the generation of royalty to follow, so that, Sir, as a paramount chief you will not be without a

attained university status it is now for the first time conferring a degree Honoris Causa on an African, and the second "first" is that the personage who is the receiver of this signal honour is a Transkeian citizen. The third "first" is that that personage is the First Citizen of the Transkei, and the fourth "first" is that he has been Chief Minister for the Transkei for almost ten years. If there are so many "firsts" therefore, is it not right and proper that we of this House should feel that we share in this honour which is being bestowed upon Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima? Probably becauce we live with him and live in close proximity with him he has been to us like the prophet who attains no greatness in his own home, and those who live in big cities never see the variegated neon signs of the city because they are in it. One has to stand a little afar off to see the brilliance that marks the beauty of a lit city, and so Fort Hare has seen the brilliance of Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima and has found it fitting that it should honour him with a Doctorate of Laws degree. Having been with him at school for many years I tended to look upon him as "the other fellow", and I must say I was favoured with an indulgence from him because he regarded me also as "the other fellow". We walked through the streets of Lovedale, tramped the corridors of Fort Hare and graduated together in 1940. Then our ways parted and we little knew that we would come together again and, I say again, particularly on this heartwarming occasion. He served his people after leaving Fort Hare; he turned his back on wealth to be the servant of the people of Emigrant Tembuland, and in order to serve them more perfectly he took the attorneys ' admission examination and obtain a first in the final examinations. Then with all that knowledge and background he again went back to his people to serve them. We have seen him growing with the administrative and political development of the Transkei until today he is Chief Minister of the Transkei. In his hands has been placed the destiny of millions. For that position there was need for a man with a vision, a man with dedication, a man with wise judgment. He has been the spearhead of all legislative enactments which have gone through this House and nobody will gainsay the fact that his legal mind must have been exercised fully when he crossed the t's and dotted the i's of every bill that came before this House. If all the Acts of this Assembly have had to pass through his hands, can we wonder then that the University of Fort Hare, amongst other degrees which it could have conferred, has deceided rightly and properly to confer upon him the degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa)? Some men are born great, some achieve greatness and others have greatness thrust upon them. How is this quotation relevant to this occasion? He was born of the royal family of the Tembus in the Righthand House, so indeed he was born great; he went to school and graduated through Fort Hare and obtained his attorneys' admission and so indeed he has achieved greatness ; he has been engaged in political activity of a constructive calibre and in this regard he has indeed achieved greatness. The writer of this quotation must have had in mind a disjunctive analysis, but I use this quotation as an accumulative quotation in relation to the hon. Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matazima, for at the apex of his success now the University of Fort Hare is thrusting greatness on him by conferring the degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa). May I congratulate you, Sir, and admire you for refusing to allow your birth in the royal house to give you an ego that would have kept you away from school. If I

counsellor when this distinguishing degree is conferred upon you. I have spoken at length, but you know what the relationship is between you and me personally, and I am sure this House joins with me in these words of congratulation to you on this signal honour. I am sure that all paramount chiefs, chiefs, sub-chiefs, head men and sub-headmen (Laughter) will go to Fort Hare on Saturday to see the honour being conferred on Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima, so that that occasion should be source of inspiration to them to send their sons and keep their sons in school to follow in the footsteps of the Chief Minister. When I mentioned members of royalty I am not excluding the "hoor-hoors" and the proletariat, for a chief goes along with a swarm of bees around him. (Laughter) Please accept our congratulations, Sir, and we feel assured that in the future Fort Hare will agree to say that their judgment was wise and justified . Mr D. H. MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to associate myself with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in his remarks on this solemn day, and with his pertinent words. This is not an occasion on which we are talking over a grave, but we are talking over a man who listens with his two ears. Just by the way I do think we could agree with Horatius that "even the ranks of Tuscany could scarce forbear to cheer", so that when his first remark was about the carrying of the day, one wondered whether the hon. the Minister of Agriculture had not ploughed the first furrow yesterday when he spoke about this gentleman, the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei , in this House. With everyone looking at their minutes one will see that this point has been touched on, but this does not mean to say that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has definitely missed the boat by speaking today. We knew he would speak. However, Mr Chairman, by some pertinent incident or accident the father of this man is not here today. The mother of this man is not here today. He is merely sitting close to his brother, the only two in the family, but Kentani where the mother was born reverberates with joy. In the midlands of Tembuland the men of Tembuland ride their horses wild with joy over this great day for them. I want to go quickly to what Kipling has said : "But there is neither East nor West nor breed nor birth when two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth." Fort Hare to Chief Kaizer Matanzima, the Paramount Chief, the leader of the nation, the leader of the Transkei, the child of this country who is known to the world, has brought West to Africa in Africa's midst. What could have happened if Kaizer Matanzima was in Oxford or Cambridge on this particular day? What is the influence of this momentous occasion going to be on the British Universities in this country towards Africans who have also made their mark? A Guzana on the other side, I mention seriously,

238

Before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, I just want to advise the members that those who wish to go to Fort Hare can apply for a permit to carry a few gallons of petrol from the magistrate of Umtata, but they will not be able to come back if they do not pull up in King William's Town and fill their cars there at 6 o'clock on Friday. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

who with all good intentions and from the bottom of his heart knows Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima from the classroom and he today shakes his hand and says: I am with you in the heights and the depths to which you have grown and come down. You know, Mr Chairman, Nongqause was a daughter of Mhlakaza, born in Kentani. Once more I want to mention that Kentani takes the greatest pride in the second Nongqause who has come with a bright literary prophecy of the future for this country. My belief is that when Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima flies he should start at Kentani and take us along to Umzimkulu. If he does fly high, will he go over with Dr. Aggrey's words: "As you grow higher, see the depths below you." Alis velut aquilarum surgent. Motion put and agreed to with acclaim. PARAMOUNT CHIEF K. D. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, allow me to take this opportunity to convey my heartfelt thanks to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, my friend Mr K. M. N. Guzana, and the hon member for Kentani, Mr Hubert Mlonyeni, and the House as a whole for the signal honour they have bestowed on me in their congratulatory remarks on the conferment of the degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa) which, as anticipated, the sentiments expressed have indeed overwhelmed my joyful heart, but I wish to observe that the honour conferred by the Fort Hare Governing Council on me is not mine alone. It is an honour conferred on the Transkeian citizens — nay, an honour conferred on the citizens of the Black Republic of South Africa. When I was at the Lovedale Missionary Institution with Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau, Chief Douglas Ndamase, Mr K. M. N. Guzana, Mr Harold Zibi, Mr Dekeda and other members of the TLA not mentioned, little did I anticipate that I would go through the tuition buildings of Fort Hare University and obtain a B.A. degree, because my people were without a successor to the chieftainship vacated by my father. Little did I anticipate that I would be honoured with the arduous task of leading the Transkei, and less still did I anticipate that I would be invested with a degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa) by my alma mater, Fort Hare. I am looking forward to Saturday, 27th April 1974, with excitement, but I shudder to think that on this occasion. I will be delivering the Graduation Speech. Hon. members I wish to assure you that this honour will spur me to further dedication to the service of the people of the Transkei. I must admit that at Fort Hare I drew inspiration from the brilliant Leader of the Opposition, Mr Guzana, as we sat side by side in the English I, Politics I and Psychology I classes of our B.A. degree studies. I say "brilliant" because he was the first student to take Latin in the matriculation classes only for two years and pass the subject with merit. Indeed , I was the first member of a royal family to pass a university degree in the whole of South Africa, the President of Botswana, Seretse Khama, being the second. I am happy about the remarks which have been showered on me and I am sure they come from the bottom of my friend's heart (I refer to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition) about my career as a student and also as an administrator. I am also happy about the remarks which have been made by a member of the royal family on my mother's side in Kentani district. I hope the members of the Transkeian royal families will take notice of the advice given to them by the hon. member who has just moved this motion and to see to the education of their children, for chieftainship is a very important aspect in our administration.

ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING

MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr. Chairman, I move that the bill be now read a third time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. PRISONS BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I move that this House sits in committee, may I crave your indulgence, Sir, to ask or move that this House waives its own rules in order to enable me to proceed with the bill in the committee stage without the Xhosa version. The reason, Mr. Chairman, is that the Xhosa version is with the printers and the hon. members will appreciate the fact that this is a very long bill covering not less than about 90 clauses. I can assure the House, however, that before the third reading the Xhosa version will have been included in the bill. I move Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second Agreed to. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I move that this House sits in committee in order to consider the clauses of this bill. MINISTER OF HEALTH: Seconded. Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I move the adoption of section I which deals with definitions and I do not think it calls for any elucidation. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, when this bill becomes an Act I would like to know what the hon. the Minister of Justice is going to do with White, Zulu , Shangane, Pedi criminals in the Transkei. Then under "juvenile", subsection (xvi), the Commissioner of Prisons is given authority to classify a person as a juvenile. My question is whether or not this power does not belong to the court which has sent the prisoner to the prison or to a labour centre. Alternatively, in what situations will the Commissioner of Prisons be required to exercise this power of classification? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, my reply to the first question is as follows: I do not think there is any difficulty with regard to Zulus, Shanganes and other ethnic groups because they fall under the difinition "Bantu". Now, with regard to the Whites they have never been inmates of the prisons where the Africans are inmates. Mr GUZANA There are two now in the local prison . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Well, that prison is not under the Transkeian Government yet and when we assume responsibility over all the prisons we shall legislate accordingly. Now, the reason why the Commissioner is required to give an opinion as to whether a person is a juvenile or not is that sometimes the courts are silent on the question and for purposes of treatment in the prison he has to make that decision, and that is more often than not used to the benefit of the prisoner.

239

important provision relating to medical officers. Complaints have constantly come from inmates regarding the treatment that they have received and that if they have been assaulted they are not given the opportunity to present themselves before the medical officer who visits the prison regularly, and sometimes time heals the wounds and the grievance remains with the people. I do hope medical officers will not ask those in charge of prisons who are ill, but rather look at the people to see that they are well. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has read through the bill and has noticed that the spirit of the bill is to make the inmates of the prison to be such persons as will not have a grudge against the prison authorities and the officials and anyone else after they leave prison. Magistrates will visit prisons and it will be part of their duties to find out any grievances those prisoners might have, and if there are any complaints with regard to assaults the magistrate will impress upon the district surgeons to examine such complainants to find out about the validity of their complaint. Mr GUZANA: Yes, this was just a comment as to what obtains. Clause 5 put and agreed to. Clauses 6 to 10 put and agreed to.

Mr GUZANA Mr. Chairman, subsection (xxix) defines a prisoner and speaks of a person who is detained in custody in any prison, and subsequent provisions as to work, as to treatment, relate to a prisoner. What is the position of the awaiting-trial prisoner? Will he be subject also to the obligations and duties and discipline and treatment that is accorded a prisoner who is, for instance, a convicted prisoner? Would you not say that there should be a prisoner who is convicted and an awaiting-trial prisoner? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do not understand the

difficulty of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, because prisons are made and meant for both convicted as well as for awaiting-trial prisoners, but in this very bill there is provision, and, in fact, even according to the usages in prison you cannot treat an awaiting-trial prisoner the same as a convicted prisoner. Here, however, we are dealing with the definition of a prisoner and we have got to say to whom it refers. It refers to any person, whether convicted or not, who is detained in custody in any prison or who is being transferred or removed in custody or is en route in custody from one prison to another prison, and for the purposes of section 54(1)(c) includes any Bantu person who has been arrested and is in lawful custody in any district of the Transkei or has escaped from custody or has been executed or has died while in any custody as aforesaid . Clause 1 put and agreed to.

On Clause 11 Mr K. M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, would the hon. Minister just motivate this, please. I ask because it is psychologically good for a person to serve his term of imprisonment, particularly if it is short, in the prison of his district so that relatives and friends may be able to visit him. I am sure the effect of those visits is really to rehabilitate and keep the man in touch with his family and with his environment while he is in prison. If a prisoner then can be moved to the prison of another district, what would probably be the reason for such transfer?

On Clause 2 Mr K. M. GUZANA : May I know what ranks relate to members of the Prisons Service and if it is possible to indicate the scale or the method or promotion in view of the fact that you are going to have now a civil service branch working in the Prisons Department. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, if you look at the first paragraph of this section you will readily see that the Public Service Commission will be the persons who will prescribe some of the matters raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Now as you will see from (a), most of the personnel of the Prisons Service of the Transkei will be the persons who have already been employed under the Prisons Act of the Republic of South Africa. As I have already pointed out, the Public Service Commission, as you know, is an independent body which will have a discretion on what ranks are to be appointed. Mr GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I raise this point because in the Police Service we have had ranks introduced which have not been found in the Police Service of the Republic, thus in the case of Black/White you have Constable/Constable, Sergeant/Sergeant, Senior Sergeant/Warrant Officer, Chief Sergeant . . · In other words, what I want to suggest MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, I see what you want to suggest . Mr GUZANA: Yes, and we would not like to have that repeated in the Prisons Department. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What the hon. the Leader of the Opposition refers to is an anomaly which happened when the Transkeian Police Force was established. That anomaly has been rectified and therefore the nomenclature that you find in the Republic of South Africa with regard to prison officials will obtain in the Transkeian Prisons Service. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 put and agreed to.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition the other day mentioned something about curious eyes, pointing fingers and so forth, and some of the prisoners might feel embarrassed to be seen serving a sentence in the same area. He might prefer to be away from his own district. Sometimes , too, it might be found that the particular prisoner is such a hardened prisoner that he requires to be placed in a maximum security prison when it might be found that such a prison is not available in that district. Clause 11 put and agreed to. Clauses 12 and 13 put and agreed to.

On Clause 14 MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, will you grant me an opportunity of saying something on Clause 14? Those who have any knowledge of our civil law will remember that some time back there was such a thing as civil imprisonment and that such imprisonment has since been abolished in the magistrates' courts, but it has not been abolished in the Supreme Court. For instance, there is civil imprisonment for failure to pay money in terms of a judgment arising from any edict in the Supreme Court, any liability of the debtors to maintain a wife, parent or child, and also arising from seduction or the birth of a child, and also a person may be imprisoned or arrested if he is suspected of being about to run away from the jurisdiction of the court. That is why this clause is inserted. It is to provide a place for the keeping of such persons. Clause 14 put and agreed to . Clauses 15 to 17 put and agreed to.

On Clause 5 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, this is a very 240

On Clause 18

kept in custody? There is that problem which probably arises. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition from his legal practice knows that when once a person has been convicted that person is a convicted prisoner. Mr GUZANA: When he is sentenced to strokes only? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If at all the sentence cannot be executed immediately by reason of the provisions of this clause the court will, of course, give directions that if the person was on bail the bail will stand; if the person was allowed out on his own recognizances such will remain; and if the person was allowed in the custody of the parents that will remain. Clause 20 put and agreed to. On Clause 21

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, just a reference to clause 18(2), where sentence of imprisonment with solitary confinement shall commence before any other sentence of imprisonment imposed at the same time. I take it that if the prisoner is unwell and probably has to go to hospital the period of imprisonment will run until he is well enough to serve the sentence with solitary confinment? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is correct. Clause 18 put and agreed to. Clause 19 put and agreed to. On Clause 20

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am always worried over the question of corporal punishment. You know the reaction of an individual to corporal punishment. It either becomes an aggressive reaction that "I shall do it again"; alternatively his whole character is broken altogether because of this humiliating consequence of receiving strokes. Sir, I am happy about the need for the presence of a medical officer to say whether or not a person is in a fit physical state to receive corporal punishment. Mr H. PAMLA: (Inaudible interjection) Mr GUZANA: I am not concerned with these brutes. Probably it is the only way they keep discipline in their homes, with a stick. I would like to put one down now and give him six of the best. (Laughter) I mentioned the fact that I welcomed your insistence on the presence of the medical officer for this reason. Many a time have I been in court where the sentence of whipping has been imposed upon juveniles and half-an-hour later your hear these young whippersnappers howling away in the cells. One often wonders whether or not a medical officer has been to see whether they are fit to receive corporal punishment or not. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Immediately after sentence? Mr GUZANA: Yes. Then again, there is this aspect that whipping brutalizes the whipper. He seems to think that all sorts of misdeameanours can be corrected with whipping. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Even in his own house?

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, may I beg an assurance that before a person is put on spare diet such person shall first of all be medically examined to make sure that the spare diet punishment does not leave him either a cripple or an invalid. Is there provision to that effect, Sir? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, this clause deals with solitary confinement and so on. No prisoner is to be subjected to solitary confinement or any kind of dietary punishment where it is likely to be detrimental to his health, or on the day preceding his release from goal, or his appearance in court. So this gives an assurance that the prisoner will be medically examined. Clause 21 put and agreed to. Clause 22 put and agreed to. On Clause 23 Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I did comment on this clause during the second reading and my sentiments are perfectly known. Clause 23 put and agreed to. Clause 24 put and agreed to .

On Clause 25 Mr R. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, subsection (c) says that every prisoner shall be provided with a separate bed and with bedding of adequate warmth. What is your definition of "bed", Sir? It has been reported to me that these people are provided with mats and a couple of rugs. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are not really beds or mats, but I am informed that sick prisoners do get actual beds. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Can a bed in the proper sense of the word "bed” be provided for a person who makes justifiable representations for a bed? MINISTER OF JUSTICE. That could be done only in the case of awaiting trial prisoners and, as I have said, if a person is sick he will be provided with a proper bed. Clause 25 put and agreed to. Clause 26 put and agreed to. On Clause 27 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, in relation to sub-section (1) (d) · "be examined and treated by a private medical practitioner or dentist" - where this person is an awaiting-trial prisoner would he be personally liable for the fees incurred? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, in the case of persons examined by private medical practitioners they would be liable to pay for the medical expenses personally. Clause 27 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned.

Mr GUZANA : I would be happy, therefore, if where there is whipping it is not the same member who does this whipping all the time, because the experience is a soul-destroying one. MINISTER OF JUSTICE. Mr Chairman, I welcome the remarks that have been made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, but wish to say that we in the prisons can do nothing as far as sentences are concerned. When once they have been imposed by the law courts they have got to be carried out in the prisons, so I hope the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will have a motion next year for the abolition of the whipping sentences. In any event I do not think once this has been made law that you will hear of this whipping almost immediately after the sentence. You see, in terms of this clause no sentence of whipping imposed on any prisoner shall be carried out until the member of the Prisons Service has been notified in writing by the registrar or clerk of the court which imposed such sentence that such sentence has been confirmed on review or on appeal, that no appeal has been noted, and that no application for leave to appeal is pending. I move the adoption. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I accept this assurance save that where you have, for instance, a sentence for review. In the meantime will the convicted person be 241

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr GUZANA: No , the obligation arises if the relatives have not arrived.

The debate on the committee stage of the Prisons Bill was resumed. Clauses 28 and 29 put and agreed to. On Clause 30 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, the question of the burial of a person who has died in prison requires some comment. This would seem to be giving the prison authorities the right to bury (it says "shall bury”) unless the Commissioner, of course, directs otherwise or authorizes the removal of the body. Would it not be better if the reatives were advised and could bury the person, and if they cannot then the prison authorities should bury him. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It must be remembered that when a person has been detained, that person is the responsibility of the prison authorities. The clause could not use the word "may". It must be a duty incumbent on the prison authorities to bury the body. Of course it gives the right to the relatives to apply for the removal of the body,9 which right is never refused. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I agree that the prison authorities are obliged to bury the person. My request is that the relatives should be advised and, if they so desire, be allowed to take the body and bury it, otherwise the authorities shall bury the body. As the section stands now the authorities shall bury the person and just at that time the relatives may very well be applying to the Commissioner to remove the body so that they have a private burial. If the obligations should be reversed so that the relatives are advised and may bury it but if they do not then the prison authorities shall do so ...

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, you see, the obligation is upon the prison authorities to bury the body of a prisoner who was their responsibility. Now, if you say it must be the relatives first it means that the obligation upon the prison authorities will only arise if the relatives are not prepared to bury the body. Mr GUZANA: That's right, the obligation will still be the same. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, if it will still be the same let it remain as it is. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, I do not know whether we all realise the importance of this matter. It is our wish that the relatives should first be informed and then we would like to know how long the body will be kept before burial. It happens sometimes that the deceased is a most important person who should be buried according to the custom of his own people. I want the hon. Minister to tell us how many days the body can be kept in order to give sufficient time for the relatives to be advised of the death. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think it might have been better for the hon. member for Tsolo to have left this matter in the hands of people who know the law. I shall first of all reply to the question raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the word "forthwith" and how we understand it. "Forthwith" means as soon as it is humanly possible to advise the relatives. That is what I understand by the phrase or word "forthwith". I still cannot see the difficulty that is bugging the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in this matter. This subsection (1 )(b) is put there so that the first thing that must be done is to advise the relatives in so far as it is possible to do so. The prison authorities cannot bury the body without having tried by all means possible to advise the relatives. It is only when they have found that the relatives are either not traceable or, if traced, are not prepared to bury the body that they take it upon themselves to bury the body, otherwise I do not see the need for having put "forthwith" there. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, my fear is if it will be expected that relatives must come so that they collect the body - now, my fear is that the prison authorities may shirk their responsibility. If the emphasis is that in the first instance it must be the relatives who shall bury the deceased person, now the tendency in the long run is that the prison authorities may shirk their responsibility and may be careless because they know now that the responsibility is not theirs. In my opinion, Mr Chairman, I think a guarantee is given to the relatives as long as once the prisoner dies it is reported immediately to the relatives. Secondly, I do not think that the prison authorities would feel happy to undertake the responsibility of burying this person if ever the relatives are traceable and they can be found at any time. They would always find it convenient to report in the first instance to the relatives. Clause 30 put and agreed to. Clauses 31 and 32 put and agreed to. On Clause 33 Mr K. M. Guzana: Mr Chairman, this seems to provide for the production of a prisoner in criminal proceedings. Would the same provision apply where a prisoner, for instance by way of subpoena, is required to give evidence in civil proceedings? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes. Clause 33 put and agreed to. Clause 34 put and agreed to. On Clause 35

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, this would indeed cause a lot of trouble on the prison authorities. Supposing the relatives are advised and they do not turn up in time, what would be happening to the body? And supposing the relatives cannot be traced at the time, what is going to happen to the body? The section says that upon the death of any person detained in prison the head of such prison shall forthwith (a) report the death to the Commissioner and to the magistrate (this is all "forthwith"); (b) advise the nearest relatives of the deceased or if the whereabouts of such relatives are unknown any other relatives of such death. That "straight away" coupled with "forthwith" shows that a chance is given to the relatives to know of the death of this person and if they wish to bury the body they forthwith, too , go to the prison authorities and ask for permission to bury the body. Mr GUZANA: When we speak of "forthwith" in relation to time, what do we actually mean ? Where the relatives are in an administrative area in Mount Frere and the prisoner dies in Umtata what does "forthwith" mean? In any event the prison authorities are obliged to keep the body for some time in order to accommodate relatives who may be living very far from the prison where the prisoner dies. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Now where do we differ? Mr GUZANA: We differ on this issue, that the prison authorities shall bury the person unless the Commissioner has authorized the removal and burial of the body by a relative. I would rather have it that the relatives will bury unless they fail to come and collect the body. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In other words, you want to relieve the prison authorities of their obligations? Mr GUZANA: No, not so much that . MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, that is what it is.

242

Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, subsection (3)(a) what are the circumstances implied in exceptional and meritorious service? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is difficult to say. Every case will be dealt with on its merits. Mr MADIKIZELA: For instance, a prisoner who does good clerical work? Mr K. M. GUZANA: Or good digging in the garden? (Laughter) MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I do not think that will be taken into account. Clause 35 put and agreed to. On Clause 36 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I think we are getting into a very difficult situation. I would like the members to be with us all the time and we have extended the indulgence to the hon. Minister that we go on with this bill even though we have not got the Xhosa version. You can hear them, Sir, complaining somewhat. Let us take them with us rather than leave them behind. Will you just make a short comment, if you don't mind. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the old adage that if a baby does not cry it will die on its mother's back holds good sometimes. We take it that if the members do not ask for motivation they understand the clauses. Clause 36 deals with the realease on parole of prisoners. Mr GUZANA: Just the substance that is, how these people may be released on parole and so on. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, I will not go into details, but the Commissioner may release a prisoner on parole where the term of imprisonment does not exceed four months. Those are the cases which fall to be decided upon by the Commissioner. Then when the period of imprisonment is between four and twentyfour months the Minister will have to deal with such cases. Clause 36 put and agreed to. On Clause 37 MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This clause gives powers on the recommendation of the Prisons Board or the Medical officer for the unconditional release of a prisoner. Mr GUZANA: Is that tantamount to a free pardon? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, where there are no conditions . Clause 37 put and agreed to. Clauses 38 and 39 put and agreed to. On Clause 40 MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In short, Mr Chairman, the Minister may where justified and subject to such conditions as we are deemed necessary authorize any prisoner to temporarily absent himself from prison. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: What are the conditions that will enable the man to apply for absence? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It says "subject to such conditions as may be necessary" . Clause 40 put and agreed to. Clause 41 put and agreed to. On Clause 42 MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition touched on this in the second reading. It is simply money that may be paid out to prisoners who get injured while in prison on duty and through no fault of their own. Some of the hon. members are asleep so that my explanation does not mean anything to them. (Laughter) Clause 42 put and agreed to. Clauses 43 to 47 put and agreed to. On Clause 48

Mr R. MADIKIZELA : A little explanation from the hon. the Minister of Justice, please. Subsection (1)(a) (i) - what is meant by "communication"? Nowadays you find prisoners stopping you in the street and asking you for tobacco, asking you for cigarettes. Who is communicating with whom in that case, and is he doing so with lawful authority? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman , this is unlawful on both. If the prisoner is found to be doing so he is contravening the law. Now, there is one thing that has always intrigued me, of course, and that is whether members of the public are expected to run away of keep mum or dumb when the prisoners are talking to them. (Laughter) But I think you have always noticed that the prisoners, when they try to talk to you, try first of all to see whether the guards are not watching. I do not think your reply, for instance, by saying you have no tobacco and then moving on would land you in trouble. It is the act of actually stopping and talking to the prisoner or giving a cigarette to him that is wrong . Mr K. M. GUZANA: But you let them smoke, don't you? They actually smoke in prison. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are not allowed to give them anything. If the warder does give you permission then you are not liable. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : I would like to be clear on what kind of correspondence this means, because a prisoner in gaol may write to you or give someone a letter to be handed to you. The prisoner may be found out when he is handing this letter over. I want to know which is the correct procedure and whether he should write the letter in gaol or when he is out of gaol on the road. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I think the safest thing for the public is this : You see, the prisoners are always with a warder. If the prisoner tries to hand a letter to you, ask the warder whether you my accept that letter. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, we want to be clear on this point. A few years ago the prisoners kept their distance from the public but today they advance and they ask for tobacco. Has there been some relaxation in the regulations of the Prisons Department? Are they doing this without authority? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You see, generally the prisoners are not allowed to communicate directly with the public without the permission of the authorities, so that any prisoner who tries to communicate with you is at once contravening the regulations. Of course, as you can see, the prisoners are better treated today than in the past and they sometimes even forget they are prisoners. Mr MADIKIZELA : And they abuse their privileges. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You know there are prisoners who work in the Department of Justice and one day as I was going up the street a young girl was in front of me and there was a young prisoner also in front of me. As the girl passed he tried to talk to the girl and of course the girl neglected him. You see, today they put on shoes, they put on long pants and they are just like gentlemen. I think that is why sometimes when they mingle with the public they think they are part of the public. Clause 48 put and agreed to. Clauses 49 and 50 put and agreed to. On Clause 51 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, the sanction does not seem to give the alternative of a fine. Would the magistrate, for instance, exercise his inherent jurisdistion to give the alternative of a fine when there

243

is no specific provision for that in this section? If he cannot do so, would the hon. Minister consider providing an alternative of a fine to the five year's imprisonment?

to voice their opinions. As it is we are just galloping to an end. Clause 56 put and agreed to. On Clause 57 Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, can we have some motivation on this? I want to know how these cases are tried. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, the hon. member for Mqanduli wants me to explain how the cases will be tried. I assume he wants to know the procedure. The procedure is provided for under clause 58, but there is Schedule 3 which lists the number of offences which are triable by a trial officer. That is on page 56. If you read that you will see all the charges that may be preferred against the prisoner. One important feature here is that there is no appeal against the judgment, but sentences of whipping are subject to review. The Commissioner is also given a right in certain cases to require a certain record to be submitted to him. If once the Commissioner has called for the submission of a record of the proceedings to him the portion of the sentence will be suspended and the Commissioner may either confirm or set aside the conviction. Clause 57 put and agreed to. Clause 58 put and agreed to. On Clause 59 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, where are you going to get a stenographer? Will it always be easy to get a stenographer here? It says here that the legal representative and any interpreter and stenographer shall be present at a prison trial. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: One will have to be

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, it will be noticed that the question of escaping prisoners is viewed very seriously and you find that some prisoners may well be relatives or sons of tycoons who may aid or incite or encourage them in the event of their escaping, knowing full well that if they come to grips with the law they will be able to pay the fine. But if there is anything the tycoons and many other people are afraid of it is imprisonment without the option of a fine. The intention of this section is to show how seriously the legislative views the question of assisting anybody to escape from prison. Then, of course, I am sure you did notice that the five years is the maximum. You see, the law has got to discourage as much as possible any attempt at escaping or inciting or aiding and abetting a person to escape from prison. Mr GUZANA : Sir, here you are legislating for the majority and the general run of people, and if one tycoon conceals an escaped prisoner there might be fifteen labourers who have concealed a prisoner. They will suffer when they go to prison, their families will suffer when they go to prison. The tycoon's family will not suffer if the tycoon goes to prison and, after all, if the tycoons can spare the money then you can have a very stiff fine imposed where the judicial officer may well say: I am going to make an example of you. I do feel that there should be some provision for the alternative of a fine. In the very nature of things people really do not, shall I say, as an instant reaction wish to conceal a prisoner. More often than not, the sight of a prisoner without a warder with him is a matter for excitement and comment in case he has escaped, and more often than not the warder is called in case the prisoner has escaped . I plead for an alternative of a fine, even if it is a very heavy fine.

found. Mr GUZANA: It will hold up the proceedings if you cannot get one. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You see, it is not always that you have a legal practitioner appearing. I think you appreciate that fact. Clause 59 put and agreed to. Clauses 60 to 65 put and agreed to. On Clause 66 Mr MADIKIZELA: Will the hon. Minister moti-

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, if there is anything the attorneys are well skilled in, it is to plead and to plead that there be a fine instead if imprisonment. However, you will have noticed in my second reading speech that I said this was based on the principles of the old Republican prisons law. Despite this very stiff provision there have been many cases of either aiding or assisting or harbouring prisoners, which makes me feel that if there can be any relaxation as far as this is concerned, giving the alternative of a fine, you can imagine how many more cases there will be.

vate here, please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This is the practice which is followed all over with regard either to the Police Force or to the Prison's Service. Mr K. M. GUZANA: In the Police Force they can buy their discharge. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, that is why it says it prohibits a member from resigning except with the consent in writing of the Commissioner and upon such conditions as may have been determined by the Minister. Mr MADIKIZELA : Can a member of the Prison's Department buy his discharge like the police do? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, I think he can . Clause 66 put and agreed to. On Clause 67 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, whenever a member because of his ability is retained beyond retirement age what will be his remuneration? Will he get his pension plus the normal salary of a man in the job, and whilst he is on extended service will he continue to make contributions to the pension fund? Could you explain these matters ? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, Mr Chairman. When a member applies for an extension of his services and such application is approved it means that he is still in the same service, under the same conditions of employment with the same remuneration as he had been

Mr GUZANA: Isn't the provision in the way in which it stands a rather terrorizing provision, and is this the way. . . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Terrorizing who? Mr GUZANA : It terrorizes the public: "If you do this you will have to serve a term of imprisonment." MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Most enactments which have a punitive measure have, in a sense, a terrorizing effect. You cannot run away from that, because they are meant to be a deterrent. The person must know the consequences of his action if he does fall into the grips of that particular section or punitive measure. Clause 51 put and agreed to. Clauses 52 to 55 put and agreed to. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I will request the Chairman to be a bit slower in taking these clauses in order to give the hon, members a chance

244

getting. I don't read into this the case of a man who was pensioned off and then he was re-employed. Mr GUZANA : See subsection 67(5) where the initiative is on the part of the authorities and not on the part of the civil servant. Will he just continue? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is just the same whether it is from him or the authorities. Clause 67 put and agreed to. Clause 68 put and agreed to. On Clause 69 Mr MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, under subsection 69(4)(b) has this officer the right to retain legal representation during this inquiry? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes. Clause 69 put and agreed to. Clauses 70 to 72 put and agreed to . On Clause 73 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, where a member of the Prison's Service becomes unfit as a result of his work in the Prisons' Department is there any provision for compensation or for placing him on pension at the time when he becomes unfit? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, if he is medically unfit. Clause 73 put and agreed to. Clause 74 put and agreed to. On Clause 75 Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Would the hon. Minister motivate in respect of "unfitness for his duties"? I can understand incapacity, I can understand his duties, but what does "unfitness" mean in this context?

after the other slips had been inserted. I move the adoption of this schedule as amended. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second. Schedule 2 as amended put and agreed to. Schedules 3 to 6 put and agreed to. Schedule 1 to 6 passed to stand part of the bill. Long title and whole bill as amended put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, I wish to report that this bill has been approved by this committee with one amendment. Will the hon. Minister indicate the date of the third reading? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Monday, 29th April 1974, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter. PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I wonder if this has not been thoroughly canvassed and whether the hon, the Leader of the Opposition should not reply? Mr D. H. MLOYENI: Mr. Chairman, this side still has some speakers and I learn from the Opposition that they have about two speakers. The debate was resumed. Mr W. S. MBANGA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members when the debate on this motion was resumed yesterday an air of frivolity bordering on tomfoolery on the part of some of the members of the House was prevalent, to the extent that we still experience that attitude now, and then one wonders if all the members appreciate the seriousness of the involvement in this matter. All along our history we have had the chiefs playing a very important role and if a move is being attempted to shift them physically almost overnight to an upper house it does not require any stretch of imagination to see how much a bloodbath is being precipitated. If we recall that chiefs are human beings and they have so much at stake in the social development of their people then we will stop short and see what can be done before we bundle them out in this way. Admittedly there have been in the past episodes which tried to strip them of their traditional power and prestige, but as recently as 1963 fresh attempts have been made no only to recall them, but to entrench the power of chiefs. Since the first law of nature is selfpreservation, one can imagine that the chiefs will not take this suggestion lying down. OPPOSITION MEMBER: We are trying to preserve their status. Mr MBANGA: Then the solution --- one must ask what is the solution, since it is felt that there should be some constitutional development to put them in an upper house. This has happened in our part of the world where chiefs have had to be shifted physically after some civil war or other eruption of the kind, but my advice to the House is this: If we are serviceable and not servile to the chiefs they will stand for us. If we strive to gain their confidence and enjoy it there will be no reason why the chiefs will not trust their commoners and· after the style of George I of England in 1714, will just desist from attending the House of Commons on their own. We have a sprinkling of very, very enlightened chiefs among our own and only this morning a tribute of outstanding value has been paid to one for his academic achievements, and a sincere wish has been expressed that since this brilliant example has been set nothing will stop the rest of the chiefs from following.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This may not result from illness. For instance, if a person is found to be some sort of an alcoholic such person is definitely unfit. Mr MADIKIZELA: Doesn't that fall under misconduct? Isn't he chargeable under misconduct in a case like that? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : He may be charged but that does not mean he is fit for his work. It may give rise to all sorts of departmental inquiries either in regard to his conduct or his fitness for his duties. Clause 75 put and agreed to. Clauses 76 to 80 put and agreed to. On Clause 81

Mr K. M. GUZANA: In that event would the person issuing a faulty warrant be the person against whom the person detained may proceed, since this gives cover to members of the Prisons' Service? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Definitely. Clause 81 put and agreed to. Clause 82 and 83 put and agreed to. On Clause 84 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, subsection 84 (2), would a situation be contemplated under this provision where prima facie it was shown there was negligence then the member will be liable to criminal prosecution? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You put it well when you say "prima facie". That is correct. Clause 84 put and agreed to. Clauses 85 to 90 put and agreed to. Schedule 1 put and agreed to. On Schedule 2 MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you will notice that I gave notice yesterday to have this schedule amended. You will notice that there are pieces of paper all over this bill. This has been due either to typographical mistakes or omissions. This amendment also is the result of an omission of all that is said to be amended here. It was noticed only 245

These enlightened chiefs can read the situation and interpret it. They are aware of the revolutionary spirit that agitates our youth. They are aware of looming dangers on our borders from the communistic countries. They are aware of terrorist activities and they are making every effort to improve the position. Attempting to develop our country constitutionally before we have developed it economically is like putting the cart before the horse. Students of history and constitutional law are unanimous on the fact that it is the economic development that must precede constitutional development. Look at it this way: There is the land vested in the chiefs and all the people hanging on the chief, and the same people are requesting to put the chief aside and let the commoners decide their fate overnight. That will be a second Fall of the Bastille, and you are aware of the consequences of such a fall. Yet we have another useful and very illustrious example of a constitutional development in the country of the English people where industrialization and urbanization took place before the development of the Constitution. Hitherto we have only two growth points of any significance in the Transkei and the population in these two is not enough to talk about. When more of these industrial centres have been established and the country, perhaps, has more subsidiary industries, when more people have been attracted to it and we have more people in urban areas than we have in rural areas then it will be time enough to talk of a change in our Constitution. What we can successfully do is to adapt these features of other constitutions and adopt them to suit our local conditions. It has been said that a constitution of a people mus grow from the grassroots of their country. Any amount in the nature of pressurization or duress will be regarded by the chiefs with not only apprehension, but with suspicion. If I may I will refer hon. members to a situation which exists now in Vendaland. Perhaps you will regard this as quite unique, where chiefs of their own selves decided to hand over to the enlightened section of the population. I will quote a section where the Venda chief in their parliament was quoted on 15th April 1974:- "Events throughout the world have brought change which also applies to our own daily lives in bringing enlightenment, and those who are opposed to the everyday changes are in fact in the dark and are in danger of being swallowed by ignorance. The necessity of education, particularly in a democratic world, is of paramount importance for any developing nation. Education is absolutely necessary for every nation in the world because we have now accepted democracy as a means through which the Venda people must be ruled ." Unlike Vendaland the Transkei has, as I have said before • a preponderant number of enlightened chiefs and they are capable of leading the people constitutionally. To avoid, as I have said before, any tendencies to a bloodbath, civil war and things of that kind we must encourage literacy of a high standard among our chiefs.

is not a healthy practice to have a speaker having his speech disjointed, because there are times when you speak with all emotion and if you are cut off, the following time when you have to speak that emotion has gone. In order to avoid such a thing, Mr. Chairman, I move that this House should now adjourn. The debate was adjourned. The assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 25th April 1974.

THURSDAY, 25th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon, members, it is with regret that I have to inform the House that the hon. member for Libode, Mr. Walter Singata, has been sick from 16th April and to date he has not been able to attend the sessions of this House. I move that his absence should be condoned and that he should be paid his sessional allowance. I have a doctor's certificate here, Mr. Chairman. The hon, member for Butterworth, Mr. W. S. Mbanga, is to be absent today and tomorrow attending official matters at home. Mr. Chairman, in consultation with the Cabinet the House will adjourn at 12 o'clock tomorrow morning. We meet at 10 a.m. and adjourn at 12 o'clock. The reason is that many of us will be going to Fort Hare and we have to travel all the way on Friday in order to get petrol either in King William's Town or Alice before 6 o'clock. MESSAGES OF CONDOLENCE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon, members of the House, I have here the following telegraphic messages :(1) "Kindly extend deepest sympathy to the Pondo peoples, the Assembly and to the House of Poto on the death of the illustrious Paramount Chief Victor Poto - Mrs. Lang and family." (2) "Chief Minister Bophuthatswana, Chief Mangope and his Government express deepest sympathy with your Government and people in sad loss of late Chief Victor Poto Tswana ." MARKETING BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House converts itself into committee. MINISTER OF ROADS: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Will the hon. Minister motivate, please. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this clause concerns itself with the introduction of schemes for the regulation of the marketing of agricultural products. It is impossible to deal with all aspects of the marketing of all agricultural products in the bill itself. Provision must therefore be made for separate schemes to be introduced for the regulation of the marketing of different agricultural products. Each scheme introduced in terms of the bill will cover all aspects of the marketing of the product to which it relates and the introduction of every scheme will be subject to Cabinet approval. Mr MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, reference is made to any specified class or group of persons. What it the significance of that? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This refers more

I shall end up, Mr. Chairman, by asking a question : What shall we have learned if we cannot avoid the pitfalls of other nations which grope around to find their way towards constitutional efficiency? After all, it was only in 1884 that England attained its present position of democracy and it has taken them a journey of over 400 years to attain that position, while we have only traversed a journey of ten years. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, while not being too lazy to continue until 5 o'clock, I do feel it

246

or less to groups like co-operative societies, traders or farmers. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, this clause provides for the imposition of a levy on a regulated product. The intention is that every scheme should be financed by its own funds. In order to obtain funds for this purpose, it is necessary to impose a levy on every regulated product. The imposition of a levy will be subject to Cabinet approval. I move the adoption. Mr H. H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, I am not clear about this. Does the hon. Minister imply that even if I mean to sell some bags of maize the Cabinet will probably impose such a levy? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: If mealies are included in the scheme each farmer will be required to give a return of his income from these products. Consequently you would have to pay the levy. Mr N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman, I would like an example to be given - e.g. should it be mealies, wheat, lucerne and the like. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, you will note that this levy only applies to regulated products. Now "regulated product" is defined under section 1 (viii) and members will have, in order to understand what regulated products are, to refer again to subsection 1(ii) which further defines the applied scheme. "Applied scheme" means any scheme for the marketing of an agricultural product as applied to the Transkei or to any portion thereof, and then it says that “regulated product" means the agricultural product to which any applied scheme relates, so that first of all there must be a certain scheme for marketing purposes in thot particular area. Then the product of that scheme means a regulated product and then the levy will apply to such product, which means that if, for instance you have a scheme for marketing beans in your area the product, which is the beans, are known as a regulated product and the levy will then apply to such regulated product. It does not mean, Mr. Zibi, that if you have a bag of mealies you will have to pay a levy because that bag of mealies is not part of a regulated product. It does not fall within a marketing scheme. Mr JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, I have heard the explanation given, but now I wonder what is going to happen to a person who is not a member of such scheme? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, if the scheme has been approved for a certain product it is incumbent on the farmer that he will have to provide himself with the regulations. Mr C. DIKO: Are you thinking of the Qamata scheme? What is the "scheme"? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, Qamata does not fall under that. Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4

known to the person asking for motivation and that does not help at all. The best way is for hon, members to put specific questions. As it appears now the hon. member wants the Minister to do his homework for him. Now, for instance,• I will give an example of the answer which was given by the hon. Minister for motivation. He merely gave what is in the explanatory notes, because he does not know what the difficulty of the hon. member is. Mr. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, we have to ask every Minister to motivate and we are not going to let them get away with it. When we ask for motivation there is some point in it and we will go on asking for it. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. I will send those three members out. Clause 4 put and agreed to. On Clause 5

Mr H. H. ZIBI : Motivate, please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, the section merely means that there may be a special levy imposed on regulated products - that is all, Clause 5 put and agreed to. Clause 6 put and agreed to. On Clause 7 Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Could the hon. Minister give a little more explanation with reference to subsection (1 )(b). MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I think this is very clear because it says it prohibits producers of any unregulated product from selling in an area defined in a notice in the Official Gazette any quantity of such product except a specified class, grade, quantity or percentage thereof or except for a specified purpose. This seems to be very clear, Mr. Chairman. For instance, if you are in Ngqeleni and want to go and sell your product in Engcobo or Tsomo . Mr H. H. ZIBI : Please explain subsection (2)(a) and (b). MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This is the payment of the proceeds into an account in the department Mr ZIBI: In subsection (3) it says the Minister may grant exemption from the operation of any prohibition imposed by him under paragraph (d) of subsection (1). I am interested in the conditions. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this subsection seems to be very plain. It is in no obscure language. It is straightforward that a Minister may exempt the prohibition from applying. Clause 7 put and agreed to. Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9

Mr H. H. ZIBI : Motivation, please. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this clause deals with certain incidental powers of the Minister in connection with the imposition of a levy on a regulated product or on an unregulated product. These powers are set out in detail in this clause and require no further comment. Clause 9 put and agreed to. Clause 10 put and agreed to. On Clause 11

Mr. H. H. ZIBI : Motivation, please. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This clause merely deals with the calculation of the amount of the levy and calls for no other comment. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point or order, Mr. Chairman, the hon, member for Mount Fletcher just calls for motivation without stating specifically what he does not understand . What will assist the hon. Minister is for members to put questions on those matters they do not understand, not to say "Motivate" all the time, because he does not know what to motivate. He may reply and give a reply on something that is well

Mr MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, there is reference to information sought from an owner or a custodian with regard to a product - that is in subsection 11 (1)(c). What type of information is this? Is it to inquire where this was grown where it was grown and how the man came to possess it? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: This refers to 247

those farmers who sometimes do not want to bring returns to the notice of the department when they are required to do so. The inspectors can walk into any premises to inquire and find out whether the goods were there, whether he keeps any books and so on. Clause 11 put and agreed to. On Clause 12 Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman, I am asking for motivation on this. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Motivation on what section? Mr NKOSIYANE: On Clause 12. Mr MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, you will bear with the hon, member for Mqanduli because there is no Xhosa version, so that he can legitimately ask for motivation on this. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, when I was at the second reading stage I delayed the committee stage because I thought the Xhosa version would be ready today. I apologise most sincerely to the hon. members for this. However, the motivation is that subclause 12(1) provides for the formation of an advisory committee to advise the Minister in regard to any matter relating to a product on which a levy has been imposed . The reason why an advisory committee can only be formed in respect of a product on which a levy has been imposed is to obtain funds for the possible remuneration of any person so appointed who is not permanently employed by the Government. Clause 12 put and agreed to. Clauses 13 to 17 put and agreed to. On Clause 18 Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Please motivate this section. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The provisions of this clause are in accordance with existing legislation in clauses 93 and 94 of the Republican Marketing Act, Act No. 59 of 1968. This means in essence that there is nothing new that is being introduced in the legislation now before us. It means that evidence can be given by those people who give evidence in a court of law, so that one does not understand where the difficulty lies. This is a matter of giving evidence on anything that anyone knows. Clause 18 put and agreed to. Clauses 19 and 20 and agreed to. On Clause 21

well presented. He therefore wants to satisfy the buyers and he will sort the wool. I am aware that this practice is being carried out by some of the agents of the farmers at the coast, sometimes to make extra charges but in more cases it is genuine. Regarding the second question by the hon. member, I believe that everything will be done to get the bonus or the "agterskot" now because when we introduce this marketing scheme we do so with the intention of giving our farmers the true value of their products. That is why I said yesterday that I will do everything in my power to eliminate the trader, because I was informed by the members of this House that some of the traders were bloodsuckers. Clause 21 put and agreed to. Clauses 22 to 25 put and agreed to. Schedule put and agreed to. Schedule passed to stand part of the bill. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I wish to report that the Transkeian Marketing Bill has been approved by this committee without amendment. Would the hon. Minister please indicate what day he fixes for the third reading? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I propose it be on Tuesday, 30th April. PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY The debate was resumed. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to take part in this discussion relevant to chieftainship. Chieftainship is something which is very important in our lives. It is something we love and respect, and we should nurse it as though it is an egg. An egg should be handled with the greatest care because should an egg fall down it breaks and ceases to be an egg. The motion proposes that an upper house should be created solely for the Chiefs. It seeks to separate the chiefs from the Commoners. This House, which is a lower house, is occupied by commoners and there are many things which are unbecoming in this House. There is smoke in this House which is occupied by commoners and the smoke may interfere with the eyesight of the chiefs. This motion states that the chiefs should be removed to a separate house, which house will be clean and aired so that the chiefs can enjoy some comfort. (Laughter) The commoners should not be placed in a house where they will exchange words with the chiefs. Some of the hon. members have asked where the Chiefs have ever been excluded from any matter which is to be discussed. That is true enough• but the chief was amongst his people as a chairman or as a judge. He was not there to engage in discussion. He was there to listen and follow opinion of his subjects. In this House these chiefs sit and hold discussions with commoners and words are exchanged between them. Though the motion seeks to create an upper house for the chiefs they will not be precluded from the right of taking part in the legislation. When we bring a motion from Ngqeleni, this motion has been discussed by the people of Ngqeleni together with the chiefs of Ngqeleni. Those people then pass the decision on to the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni. We will discuss the question and come to a conclusion, the commoners as well as the chiefs of Nyandeni, and then we will pass the decision on to the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon, chief from Nqamakwe is always talking in that corner. I am mindful of what I will do to you.

ACTING CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: May we have an explanation on this clause, please. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In a case where a product is sold through the department or a specified person it is necessary that the ownership of such product should pass over to the department or the specified person, whichever the case may be. This is to enable the department or the specified person to sell or to deal with such product as they may deem fit. In certain instances it may be necessary to grade, sort, repack or store such a product before it is sold, in order to obtain a better price. ACTING CHIEF SIYABALALA: Mr. Chairman, I want to put another question. If I have my clip of wool and I take it to market, is it presumed that this clip has no been graded? And if that be so can arrangements not be made locally for the sale of such wool? In this particular market shall we be given a certain bonus such as exists presently where we sell our wool? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman• it sometimes happens that the farmer maintains that he has sorted his wool properly but the agent or his representative at the coast feels that this product is not 248

Mr MADIKIZELA: The chiefs in this House ask us what we are going to do after we have removed them to the upper house. We ask them a question: Why do they refuse to leave this House? We say this House is not suitable for them because we exchange words with them and also point fingers at them. (Interjections) When we leave this House we press together with them in the doorway and sometimes even trample on their feet. When you ask pardon of the chief one of the commoners will say: What does this chief want here? Why do you trouble to ask his pardon? (Interjections) Comparisons have been made with our chieftainship to the royalty of England. They have their own type of chieftainship in England and we have our own paramount chiefs in the Transkei. The King of England is not amongst the people who discuss matters of law and we are anxious that our chiefs and paramount chiefs are not in a room where discussions are taking place. What they should do when decisions have been made is to endorse them. Mention was made of the House of Lords in England. Similarly we have chiefs and paramount chiefs here. The peers of England are placed in a house of their own and it is our desire that our chiefs and paramount chiefs should sit separately from us. (Interjections) Our chiefs need have no fear whatsoever. Even in our homes in the administrative areas we love our paramount chiefs and chiefs. We respect them at our homes and we respect them even in this House. It is out of our great respect for the chiefs that we have introduced this motion, so that they can have their own house which will be respected. Why do the chiefs refuse to leave this House? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Ngqeleni seems to have shifted from our private agreement. I had expected him to stand up and ask that this motion stands down until the hon, the Leader of the Opposition be present. I am sure the hon. member for Ngqeleni has been greedy and wanted to participate in the debate. If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has to reply it is only fair to him that he should be present when the discussion takes place on this motion, because before he left he asked me whether we could not make it possible for the motion to stand down until he comes. Mr MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Justice is quite right in his remarks with regard to the presence of the hon, the Leader of the Opposition with respect to this motion. I therefore ask you if we can put off further discussion on the matter. The debate was adjourned.

which always emanates from the hon. members of the Opposition. Experience has shown me that because of the dual police force in the Transkei the hon. members across the floor are never able to know at what target to direct their weapons. I move this motion in order to assist the hon. members of the Opposition to have one target at which to direct their weapons. During the parliamentary or Legislative Assembly session of 1973, after I had delivered my policy speech, all the weapons emanating from the hon. members of the Opposition were directed towards the misdeeds and misdemeanours of the South African Police. During this present session of the Legislative Assembly most of the criticisms which were levelled against the police were levelled against the South African Police. That, of course gave me an easy channel of replying to whatever criticisms were levelled because all I could say was that the South African Police are not under the Department of Justice of the Transkei. But, Mr. Chairman and hon, members, I am not an escapist and I would like the whole police force in the Transkei to fall under the Department of Justice in the Transkei. That is why my motion is in two parts, because if I had only said all the police in the Transkei should be transferred to the Department of Justice of the Transkei then, according to the definition of the Transkei as contained in the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, the towns and villages of the Transkei do not form part of the Transkei . Whether we like it or not, hon. members, we are now going towards full and complete independence as far as the Transkei is concerned.

It was an anomalous position from the very beginning that there was formed in the Transkei a Department of Justice and, instead of having the police force under the Department of Justice in the Transkei, a small police force for the Transkei was formed. Admitteldy we have made some progress in the transfer of some of the police stations to the Department of Justice of the Transkei, but, as I have said, it is a most anomalous position where one section of the police force in the Transkei is administered and answerable to the Department of Police in the Republic of South Africa. I do not want to list the number of misdeeds and misdemeanours which we experience as far as the Republican Police are concerned in the Transkei. That is common cause and very well known to everyone in this House. I remember one evening I met a certain two very important citizens of the Transkei in the persons of Attorney Mr. Letlaka and Attorney Mr. Nakani. It was the day of the unfortunate occurrence when Dr. Mbekeni lost his daughter. Because of certain difficulties of having the bodies of those young girls admitted to the mortuary at the Tembuland Hospital the two attorneys and myself had to go to the charge office at Umtata.

TRANSFER OF ALL POLICE STATIONS TO TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to move the motion standing in my name, namely:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Government of the Republic of South Africa to transfer: (a) All the Police Stations situate in the area known as the Transkei as defined by the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963; and

As we entered the charge office there were two young white constables sitting at a certain table. There was an elderly African member of the force at the counter. As we entered and greeted these two young constables they just lifted their heads and looked at us and continued with their work - if they were doing any work at all. Now, it is part of courtesy in any office, including our offices, that when somebody enters, it does not matter who it is, you stand up and greet that person. We do it in our offices. It doesn't matter who comes into our offices, we stand up and greet a person and inquire what the person wants, but these two young constables just could not be bothered. Then an interesting thing happened while we were talking to

(b) All the Police Stations situate in the towns within the magisterial districts of the Transkei to the Department of Justice of the Transkei ." Mr. Chairman, I move this motion with full confi. dence that today, for a change, even the hon. members of the Opposition will support this motion. I move this motion partly on account of a constant misdirection

249

this elderly African official. Another white man, dressed in shorts, entered and as soon as he entered they both stood up and stood at attention. I then formed the opinion that this must be their senior in rank, and all the time as they spoke to him they were standing to attention. Of course, they would not be bothered even though they knew that the Minister of Justice of the Transkei had entered their office. (Laughter) GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Disgraceful! MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Now, the most discouraging factor of it all is that when they do these misdeeds they always say they don't care for the Transkeian Government - they are not under the Transkeian Government. Mr G. N. SIPUNZI: Secondhand officials, not seconded.

tude because he knew that we were criticizing the police that were not his. We fully support this motion, Mr. Chairman . . . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear hear. Mr MADIKIZELA: and we regard it as a step in the right direction and as a sign of the growth of the Transkei. We are wondering, though, if the bringing of this motion before this House is not a redundant matter. Only a few weeks ago we were discussing the motion of full independence for the Transkei and this motion was carried. The ordinary connotation of the word "independence" imply the objects sought in this motion. We cannot see the Transkei fully independent without effective control of the police, the effective control of all the police stations in the Transkei, including those stations that are in the villages and towns of the Transkei . We have always wondered at the attitude of the Republican Government in passing sections of administration to the Transkeian Government in dribs ad drabs. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is correct. 'Mr MADIKIZELA : As the hon. the Minister of Justice has indicated, only last year (I think it was) a couple of stations were passed over to the Transkei and we wondered why the others were left behind. We always regarded this as a serious omission. In ten years the Department of Justice has proved itself competent in many respects. Why the Republican Government did not seem to have confidence in it, nobody knows. We do not have to debate at length on this matter, Mr. Chairman. We fully support the motion by the hon. the Minister of Justice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I do not think it would be wise to allow further discussion on a motion that is supported by the Opposition, and even if some of the members are keen to take part in the debate what is the point? Mr C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman, it is very important that many remarks should be made about the police force, because some of the African police may have inherited the habit of mishandling their people, so for this reason we must discuss this. They must respect their people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I think if the hon, members still feel they could say something I think the Chair must allow them, because whatever they have to say might influence the Republic of South Africa to expedite the question of handing over this police force.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, many allegations have been made in this House about delays in the execution of complaints which are placed before members of the South African Police and, in fact, this misdemeanour on the part of the members of the white police in the Transkei has even infected some of the black members of the police force in the Transkei because they also say they do not care for the Government of the Transkei, black as they are. I have had occasion to be at the charge office, I went there one day in connection with the arrest of the son of the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. The hon. Minister was at home and it was reported to me that his son was under arrest at the charge of'fice. Now while I was there I had a most unpleasant experience of witnessing the mishandling of our people at the charge office by members of the police force. Our own black members of the South African Police, especially when females go there with complaints, instead of attending to the complaints of the females they start playing love games with them, disregarding the fact that a charge office and a police station are official places where a person must exercise his officialdom , and if at all he has amorous feelings towards the lady he can go and do that away from the charge office. Now, the question is: If persons are aggrieved at these local police stations, how long is it going to take the aggrieved persons to send their complaints to the Minister of Justice of the Republic of South Africa. I do not think, hon, members, I need to belabour this point much because the complaints have been made in this very House. There seems to be a fear of having the white police placed under the Department of Justice of the Transkei as if they belong to a different class of white people from the white people who are seconded to the Transkei. It is easy if the police force of the Republic of South Africa is transferred to the Government of the Transkei. The white personnel will be seconded to the Transkeian Government in the same way as other seconded officials are seconded to the Government of the Transkei. I move, hon, members, that these members of the police force in the Transkei should be transferred to the Department of Justice of the Transkei. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second, Mr. Chairman. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to speak to this motion which, according to the hon. the Minister of Justice, is intended for the benefit of the members of the Opposition. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I must correct you and say "partly" . Mr MADIKIZELA: Partly. We are happy that our criticisms passed on the misdemeanours of the police have had the desired effect. Whenever we criticized these police the hon. Minister adopted a passive atti-

Mr R. MADIKIZELA : By all means, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF H. Z, ZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members. I stand up to support the motion moved by the hon, the Minister of Justice. In supporting this motion I want to be quite candid in order that we should bring to the surface all the grievances we have against the members of the police force. One might gain the impression that some of us are hostile towards the members of the police force, but that is not the case. The case is they make themselves objectionable to the public because of their misdemeanours. It appears that as they wear these uniforms they take themselves to be above the law and illtreat members of the public with impunity. The hon, the Minister of Justice has correctly stated how cruel some of the SAP members can be to the members of the public in the way they illtreat people. They have therefore earned themselves the nickname of "Satan After People". (Laughter). In fact, the police play a very important role in any society or country, but now the police have earned themselves the disrespect of the people and the people 250

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, you are out of order and I cannot tolerate someone speaking to something that is outside the motion. Mr NKOSIYANE : I am coming back to the motion, Mr Chairman. Our desire is that even if the police are transferred to the Transkei they will behave as police. This is the request I would make, that if these Republican police are transferred to the Transkei they should be paid the same salary which they were paid by the Republic, even if this Government is less than the Government in Johannesburg, because a person should not be refused his salary. Our objection is the lack of respect shown by these police. Even at Mqanduli the police, notwithstanding the fact that reports are brought to them and particularly when there is going to be some fatcion fighting, just sit down and do not attend to these reports. What we want is that when such reports are brought to the notice of the police they should act immediately and put a stop to the fighting. When these police are called and told that the boys are out in the open preparing to engage in a fight, the usual reply of the police is that they should just be left alone. The reason why a report is made to the police is to save life, but the police will only say: Let them fight. In the meantime lives are lost. In all this, Mr Chairman, I mean that we would be pleased if the police were transferred to the Transkeian Government. They have been sheltering behind the Republican Government. When these police are transferred to the Transkei the Government should see to it that they are kept on transfer and not one unit should be allowed to remain for more than a year in one station. A policeman should not be allowed to lay eggs because in the long run he will hatch the eggs. (Laughter) The Government should see that accommodation is provided for the police. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish whatever I am going to say in this House to be seen against the background of a deliberate attempt to blackmail the Matanzima Government in the eyes of the Transkei. The ordinary man in the street does not know that there is Transkei Police, there is the Republican Police Force in the Transkei, so when the white police do all these indignities to the African people they do it to prove the inefficiency of the Matanzima Government. I will quote an instance which I once reported here when they took a chief of the Amanci and put him in the boot of a car, assaulted him and when we questioned them about this they said : Get out, we have nothing to do with the Matanzima Government. Go and report to him. Now, that was definitely an insult not only to the chief but to the people of the Transkei. It was explained that those people do not differentiate between acts of the Republican police and the Transkeian police. Just last year they did exactly the same thing. This young chief who sits here was assualted by white police and when this was reported that man was transferred, but no case was ever heard. So what we want to impress upon you which I have been sent to report in Umtata, is that when things are reported to a station commander who is a white policeman he ignores those things. When you go to the District Commandant in Kokstad no action is taken. Now I will prove what I am saying. These things you can investigate if you like. I will stand for this. At Ludeke when there was a faction fight seventeen people were killed in one day. Now, what is most surprising and what is most disheartening is that the station commander and his gang of police were there before the people could actually engage in fighting and the African police were crying tears and saying: Please, Sir, let us

look upon them always with fear on account of the way they conduct themselves. Mr. Chairman, we are airing our grievances in the hope that they will get to the ears of the members of the SAP. We have noticed some of these misdemeanours which have been shown by younger members of the police force towards their own seniors. Those members of the SAP who do not want to be under the control of the Department of Justice are quite free to leave the Transkei . If they do not want to be under the strict control of the Department of Justice they are free to go because there are many incumbents for these positions. Now there is a tendency for the African members of the police to inherit some of these bad habits from their white counterparts. They show no respect for a man, no matter what his status may be in life. They are very fond of that. They have even taken a paramount chief whom I shall not name and put him into a van with the remark that they have no chiefs because they are not under the Transkei, and they were shaming this man in the eyes of the public. With those few words, Mr Chairman, I don't want to take the time of the House but I support this motion entirely. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the transfer of all police stations in the Transkei to the Transkeian Government was resumed. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am going to speak on this motion. Everything has been put right for me and I am going to talk. A black man also wants to enjoy human rights and I hope what we say in this House today will be known right through the world, so that even these constables should realise that we are people. We like the white people - in fact, we love all people, and today we have been afforded the privilege of speaking so that... DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member please talk about the position of the police stations in the Transkei. That is what the motion is about. Mr NKOSIYANE : These remarks I am making are in connexion with the police. It is only right that the police should be transferred to the Transkeian Department of Justice so that they should realise the rights of other people, but I wish to add that we are not only confined to the boundries of the Transkei. We will probably have to cover the boundries to the Republic so that the police should realise we are human beings. Sometimes you are on a visit as a member of parliament and a constable will just push you backwards and demand the production of a passbook, though he has not bothered fo find out what you are there for. Just because you are black he regards you as an obstruction. This motion seeks to create friendship between the people and the police. Even the people in Port Elizabeth should realise this. We are aiming at closer relations. Whenever you get to some place you should not ge asked what you want and you should only have to tell and after that whatever you desire should be made easy for you. At present when you meet the police you are asked what you are looking for, but immediately you say you have come to report the loss of your stock you are told to go outside and you will be called back. When you return the following morning you will be told to go back simply because the officer is too lazy to write. Some people do not even bother to report at the charge office because of this attitude on the part of the police. You are told to go home and return later. Today our deliberations in this House will make the poliice realise what we are looking for. The police do not do their work.

251

affairs of the black man in the Transkei. Now, can you tell me why on an important day, Monday, which was supposed to be a holiday from 12 o'clock - why did the police here in Umtata not have the flag at halfmast? They did not have it. It was only the Transkei police and the Matanzima buildings that had it halfmast, but as far as the white police were concerned nobody worried, nobody cared. So I think this thing, even more than the District Commandant in Umtata, this thing deserves Minister Muller himself. These men must be removed from the Transkei. They are not worth it They are sowing seeds of destruction, destroying humanity, destroying civilization, destroying progress. So when you take over these black police you will start from :A, training them how to handle other peoule in a state which must be theirs. It must be peaceful. In one night they arrested the people who were at Ngquza so why shouldn't they crush that thing now? To my greatest surprise, you know what they did? They went there, built a big camp and a lot of helicopters arrived. These helicopters were interested in finding dagga and those boys we call Mbombela boys were stealing a lot of cattle and sheep and goats and bringing them to the police at Ludeka. They encourage these Mbombela boys to destroy our way of life, so when we support you we say you must transfer the Police Department immediately. By "immediately" I do not mean next month ― I mean next week. (Laughter) Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to speak to this motion by the hon. the Minister of Justice. Unfortunate as it is that, in fact, I have just arrived in the House, but I feel it my fervent prayer from my people whom I represent in the Engcobo constituency that I must speak on this motion. In principle we are not opposing the motion. The motion reads : (Read motion) First and foremost I will deal with the (a) part of it. Now again, Mr Chairman, you will recall or this House will recall , that I have deliberated extensively on this subject of the police in this Transkei. It is gratifying to know, in fact, that in this moment of truth, the truth has come out that in fact they must be transferred and seen to be transferred to the Transkei. The very area known as the Transkei according to the Act is not the Transkei as such, in that in fact we know the boundries of the Transkei as were shown to us on a map one day here in this Assembly Evidence has it, and not to the contrary of that fact found and proved. Now, Mr Chairman and hon. members, why should there be such a motion from the hon. Minister? It is because of his interest in the citizens of the Transkei, or if that interest does not emanate from yourself it emanates from the Government of the Transkei and it is because they are acting on our mandate. We are all members of the Government here. Can we be fooled for so many years in that in fact this area called the Transkei is not ours as defined in the Act? Are we such fools, in fact, in order to be so fooled that we do not understand what our rights, what our privileges, what our boundries are? The truth is the truth and nothing else but the truth, so in support of this motion which we are not going to oppose this side of the House, as I am led to believe or know, I feel that section (a) must go as I have propounded my ideas there or thereanent. (Laughter) Now I come to (b), Mr Chairman and hon. members : "All the police stations situate in the towns within the magisterial districts of the Transkei to the Department of Justice of the Transkei." I would add that in fact when that happens it must happen forthwith without any qualms and with nothing ado about

go and separate those people before they fight. He said: Let them fight first. Now they saw one man on horseback who was shooting all these people with a firearm. The white station commander did not care to interfere, so on that day seventeen people were killed and after that he said to his police: All right, let us go and collect the dead bodies. To make the situation still worse, after that no arrests were made. So what I want the House to understand is that it is not the inefficiency of the police. It is a definate step for sabotaging the Matanzima Government and, unfortunately, it is done by the white Government. Now, when we reported this station commander to Kokstad nothing was done about him. That is why I was delegated to draw the attention of the officials in Umtata and I did not want to go to the white police, I wanted to go to the Department of Justice. Now, before I stop I want this House to understand there is an organization which is now going on in Pondoland. I am not saying in Eastern Pondoland, but in the whole of Pondoland. These fights which are termed "faction fights" are no more faction fights. It is an organization which is going to do exactly what was done in 1960. They call themselves the Mbombela gang. They come from Ngqeleni and Port St. John's and they join Tabankulu , Flagstaff and Lusikiski and they ask: Ramsay, on which side are you Mbombela-ing? (Laughter) In Flagstaff they have killed about 30 people. I am telling you of things which happened between March and April. Just now I have heard that Bizana has joined and these people are anti-chiefs, anti-headmen, anti-authority, anti-progress, anti-civilization. What is more, for your information, hon. Minister and the House, behind them it is no more communists and Ahrenstein. It is the white policemen. It is the herbalists on that side. The herbalists and the white police are making money out of this. Now, when I went home I was told people had gone to pay a herbalist R400 to give them herbs so that they could be tuned up to kill the other side, and that is going to spread right through Pondoland. It is coming, but what I want you to take note of is that this thing is encouraged by the white police. At Dungu, close to 50 head of cattle were found in a forest. Now, to my greatest surprise a number of police were shareholders in those stolen cattle. (Interjections) Yes, they get loot. They encourage people and just about last week a hundred head of cattle were taken from Flagstaff to Tabankulu and in those cattle the police are shareholders . So what happens when you take your car there is that you find young children, old women and men sleeping in the forests. Can the Districh Commandant of Kokstad say they do not know about that? Can the police at Tabankulu say they know nothing about that? I have tried to interview them often and nothing has been done. Now, before I finish we want you to take the Department of Police to yourself, not because we hate the white man — we don't hate anybody - but because we have seen they are so generating hatred of a black man, to the extent that they do not regard him as a human being. Even if a motor vehicle crushes an African on the road these people think it is a nice thing. They have no respect for the black man. Shall I draw your attention to an incident to which, personally, I would not have liked to refer, but to strengthen the belief that we have no more police? That is why I want to draw your attention to these things , so that we can find means to defend ourselves because there is no more police in the locations. These people who don't care for the black people, they don't care to investigate his complaints, they take no interest in the

252

are in doubt, address questions to him for clarification. The position as it obtains is that we were always told there are the Republican police and the Transkeian police. We ordinary people are unable to make any differentiation. We just say all the members of the police belong to his department and that is why I warmly support his Motion. There are certain ailments that we do suffer from this police force, where one loses a beast, a horse or a sheep, and you go and report the loss to the police and the question put to you is: Whom do you suspect? In that way it is suggested that if you have an enemy you are likely to cite him, to the extent that some have actually named others as suspects. This person is apprehended without any investigations having been instituted, but merely on you own suspicion and suggestion. In that way we say they are encouraging misunderstanding among the citizens. A similar situation obtains where you have people breaking into the trading stores. If a store is broken into and the matter is reported by the shopkeeper they carry on in the same way, so it is clear that they do not perform their duties. All they do is to encourage misunderstanding amongst the citizens. As there is fighting going on in Pondoland, when it is apparent that a fight is about to take place and you quickly take steps to report the matter to the police in order that the fight should be stopped before it starts, they will ask you how many people have died already. That is a difficult situation because we take these officers of the police force as people who are there to maintain peace. When the fight now takes place they will go and look on. All they do is to collect the corpses and those are then subjected to post mortem examinations. When the corpses are in town the relatives of the dead people are told to go and fetch those dead bodies. The corpses were brought to the police station by the police vans, but when they have to be returned the relatives are told they must bear the cost. That is why we support this motion and we are motivating our support of the motion so that the hon. Minister should know what we have been suffering. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is to be regretted that the hon. Minister concerned is physically out of the House and I do not know what he will say when he starts summing up. From the outset we did indicate that we were not opposing the motion at all because we feel it is a step towards the right direction, but I wanted to point out to the hon. Minister that he has defended the police as a whole that is, including the Republican police as well for their misdeads and misdemeanours, as he said. It is only this year that he is owning to this regard to the Transkei police in his policy speech, and the question arises now that these police are operating physically in the Transkei : What does one do if a policeman attached to the Republican Government does not act as he ought to? Another thing, we have towns like Matatiele and Port St. John's and in terms of our Constitution they are supposed to be white towns. They have police stations in those towns and within the districts as well. I would have been happy to know from the hon. Minister what he intends doing about that anomaly because, though the police stations are right inside those said white towns, the people who live in those areas are Transkeian people because they live in those areas under the chiefs. Of course, one would also ask the question of the hon. Minister as to what arrangements he has in mind of preparing training for our Transkeian police, and we are happy now because he will no longer, as a Minister, have the excuse that that

nothing. (Laughter) Really, Mr Chairman, you will appreciate that as things are now we are heading for independence. What of it if your police are in another camp and you are in this camp and this camp is heading for whatever it is heading for? Know you, as a person who is heading for whatever you are heading for, there are still smotherings of yourself outside yourself. (Laughter) Mr Chairman and hon. members, we have got to face facts and especially reality, because if you are behind the screens of a euphoria what do you expect of yourself in the actual end, in the eventual end? Why do I ask that question? It is because in the electioneering campaign of white South Africa we have heard what they have been saying about us. We read the papers. They seem to be capitalizing on this as their electioneering campaign. If the Transkei becomes independent, what of defence matters? What of security of the State? They have gone so far as to ask for the amendment of the Constitution in order to maintain law and order in the Transkei, but what of (I think that is Sir de Villiers Graff in yesterday's paper or the day before) where we are faced with a political situation now. Let the Transkei stand for itself. Mr Chairman, this is a question that has to be gone into deeply, and especially deeply, and I implore even the members of the select committee that has been entrusted with the onerous duty to see to it that the independence of the Transkei is carried out that they should delve deeply into this with the deepest consideration, taking consideration of the many factors that are inevitably bound up with this, inter alia the relationship between the Republican Government and the Transkeian Government; the situation of the Government of the Transkei in relation to that of the Republic; the overall importance of the attachment of the police of the Republican Government in so far as the Transkei is concerned . As has been mentioned by previous speakers, there are certain ills which, in fact, to my mind are unbearable and which certain ills have been perpetrated by the South African Police. I remember in Engcobo one year the assailant was the station commander himself. He was assaulting someone because he had bashed his car. What about our courts ? Don't we have recourse or redress to our courts? Our courts are courts of law and not of morality. They have been established by an Act of Parliament. Why do we have a high ranking officer taking the law into his own hands? But why should that state of affairs be allowed to obtain? Mr Chairman, in fact I think it is high time that these police stations situate in the towns within the magisterial districts of the Transkei must be transferred to the Transkeian Government worthwith, and in fact after they have been transferred the Minister must be empowered to administer over all, be he yellow, brown or white, because there is a travesty of justice which I may mention, Mr Chairman, where in fact you will find attorneys they have passed their law and you will find an accused person if he is a white man, but a prosecutor may not prosecute in that case or a magistrate may not preside over that case. At the very police stations where a European accused is concerned, a statement will not be taken by any of these investigators who are black. Why that? Justice must be done and must be seen to be done, and justice is justice and nothing but justice. with these words I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr D. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support fully the motion by the hon. the Minister of Justice because he has now offered us an opportunity in order that we must, where we 253

section of the force does not belong to him because they will all belong to the Transkei. Another thing I wanted to know from him is this ― whose police are those (you know the ones) with bands on their arms who normally operate round the magistrates' offices or at the magistrates' offices ? I am aware that they present a great problem even to the chiefs and the headmen when it comes to land matters. One other thing, which is the last I would have asked him, is: What does he intend doing in the Maluti area on account of those marauding thieves who operate in the mountain areas and take sheep from the Maluti area right across to Lesotho? Normally the said thieves are armed, and on the Transkeian side if you have a stock post below the Drakensberg and you want a firearm to cover you, you are never given it. We all believe that once they belong to the Transkei they will cease to be symbols of oppression but they will work as peace officers and we hope their misdeeds , their misdemeanours will be normalized . Finally, I could have been happy to hear what the remunerative aspect of the force is going to be - that is, compare

Johannesburg and that royal time ends when they get to Ibisi police station. I have known cases where people have had to wait six hours while attending a funeral because the police stopped them and asked them if they have paid a fare. The driver says the people have not paid and the people say they have not paid, but the police keep them there until they tell "the truth". What is worse at this particular police station is to find an unqualified driver demanding that you manipulate certain parts of the car which he does not know in an effort to test the roadworthiness of your own car. While carrying out these stupid activities he is supposed to be discharging his duties. We have another interesting case of cruelty that took place quite recently at Mount Ayliff . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is that really relevant? Mr PAMLA: I can perhaps leave this out, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think so. Mr PAMLA: Now, I would like to endorse that this motion be put into effect as soon as possible because this dual control is responsible for sowing these seeds of confusion in our society. As a matter of fact, if we want to avoid the Transkeians hating the white police I would suggest that the younger policemen be removed at once from the Transkei and leave only the senior officers who are, in most cases, very reasonable. In fact, Mr Chairman, if we do not remove these young police at once we will find ourselves in a situation that was experienced by a DRC priest in Nigeria when he saw an African policeman in charge of white prisoners. They were standing along a pavement while awaiting the arrival of a van. One of the prisoners got a bit tired and started to sit down and this African policeman, a Nigerian, got hold of this man by the neck of his shirt, pulled him up and gave him a good slap on the face. The South African was surprised and went to the Nigerian and asked him: What are you doing? Why did you do that? The Nigerian policeman said: Don't worry, we are paying them in their own coin this is what they used to do to us. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members this motion has been thoroughly canvassed and I have the respect to call upon the mover to wind up. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am finding myself in exactly the same position as an army which is required to perform the duty of mopping up, but in this case I am required to mop up when there is nothing to mop up. (Laughter) I am very happy that my anticipation of what would happen in this debate has turned out to be as I anticipated namely, that this House has been ad idem. I usually say that anything may be good but may turn out to be bad, depending on the use to which it is put. A knife is a very good instrument but when a young tsotsi starts using it on somebody's tummy it becomes a very bad thing indeed. In the same vein the police institution is a very good institution for keeping peace and order, but when they become bad in their actions the whole police force is something that becomes dreaded by the community. It is for that reason that we feel that these Republican police who are in the Transkei should be under somebody. I have a note here from one of the speakers who forgot to mention it when he was on the floor canvassing this motion. He alleges that the fights, the socalled faction fights in Pondoland may be the beginning of, or a rich ground for terrorists. The allegations that were made by the hon. member for Tabankulu, Mr. Cromwell Diko, are very serious indeed. Owing to the fact that we have been so busy with the major

the Transkei police to the Republic police irrespective of colour - because already with the doctors we know it is equal pay for equal work. Mr Chairman and hon. members, many I believe have canvassed this motion sufficiently because we are all agreed on it in principle and I do not know what is going to happen to the questions to the hon. Minister in his absence. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am not going to waste your time by repeating what has already been said on this subject. I want to discuss it very briefly under four little subheadings . I want to talk about the image of a policeman; hatred avoidance; most white police in the Transkei in sinecure positions ; and how the Afrikaner race earned a bad name with the Africans through the police. Mr Chairman, one major reason why we want to take the Police Department under the Department of Justice is because we want to build a good image of a policeman in this country. In fact, if we can afford we would love to see our young men develop their careers as policemen to the same standard as that of the London police. Mr Chairman, I do not think you will call me out of order if I illustrate this question of the image from a little experience I gained as an inspector of schools . In the Std 1 to 2 syllabus in the Republic we had a subject called Environment Study and among some of the lessons listed there was the duty of a policeman. I want to assure this House that each time I questioned the children on the duty of a policeman I got a very poor impression of the police force. My first question used to be: Is a policeman a good person or a bad person? The answer was always "A bad person" , and, Mr Chairman, I must assure this House it took me quite a bit of time to convince the children that the police are doing good social service. The reason why the African children have such a picture is because the only time they experience a situation where their fathers are treated like small boys is when the police come along. Now, a developing state like ours cannot afford to build that type of police image, and that is one reason why we want to request the Republican Government to hand over what belongs to us. In fact, I feel that this has been long overdue. On the question of hatred avoidance I once more want to quote one little instance where a very active police station has ended up by being the worst-hated in the Republic. This station is situated somewhere in Umzimkulu and if you want to find real torture, find them when they have a road-block. Taxi-owners have a royal time from 254

business of this House it was not possible for me to arrange the intended meeting between the Paramount Chief of Pondoland and himself. I can assure him that the facts that he has brought to light before this House are being taken so seriously by me that I am going to take the first available opportunity to arrange a conference between the hon. the Paramount Chief of Pondoland and the senior members of the police force in the Transkei both Transkei police as well as Republican police. We definitely cannot stand this wanton loss of life which is going on in the Transkei. This thing is spreading all over the country. You hear it in the mines, in the rural areas, all over where the African people are butchering one another. I do not think, Mr. Chairman, I am being required to reply to anything because, as I have said, the House is agreed on this motion. I therefore move that this motion be adopted by the House. Motion put and unanimously agreed to. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, the information I have as Chairman is that the next speakers on motions are not ready and at this juction I wish to appeal to one of the Ministers to move that we adjourn until tomorrow. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On the contrary Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourns until 4.15 in order to enable us to have consultation with the hon, the Chief Minister.

specimen for that deep-freeze. (Laughter) But he is the exception and I do not class all chiefs in that category. Why do you anticipate that the upper house is going to be a deep-freeze if you do feel that you are an essential element in the legislative machinery of the Transkei? I am led to the view that you yourselves, the chiefs, indeed feel that they are just a useless appendage and all carcasses, of course, should be put in a freezer to be kept fresh. (Interjections) I am not insulting you. These are the thoughts which have been expressed by the chiefs themselves in this House. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: When? Mr GUZANA: The hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland said so very clearly in this House. The hon. the Minister of Education said so specifically in this House. (Laughter) MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Quote! Mr GUZANA: And surely we have no reason to stretch ourselves unduly to save people who think they are themselves dispensable. But we do not think in that way, nor am I motivated by base intentions. I am more concerned about retaining the dignity of the chief than destroying it. How often have chiefs stood up on the Government side, even on this motion, and have pontificated on their position as chiefs, so that in spite of the Constitution which says all members of this House are equal we have this anomalous situations of chiefs in this House who are priding themselves and seeking themselves to be sacrosanct members because they are chiefs. Isn't it preposterous in the twentienth century that a chief can stand up and boldly say that chiefs are nominated by God and the rest of the people are there to serve them? There is a danger of a man becoming overbloated with a sense of his own superiority, and this personal arrogance results in a mind that is stultified by self-centredness. Let me tell you that all people on this earth kings, queens, commoners, are made by God and it is merely an accident of nature as between man and woman that some of you have been born chiefs. (Laughter) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I wonder if that is not too strong, Mr. Speaker? ' Mr GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I say it is probably as a result of chance that some of us have been born chiefs.

The Assembly adjourned. AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, since the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is here and he was the mover of Motion No. 12, I will now call upon him to wind up the motion. PROVISION OF TWO CHAMBERS IN LEGISLATIVE ASEEMBLY

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have been taken rather by surprise but I think I can manage all the ideas that were expressed in this House on this motion. First of all I want to congratulate an hon. member from the Government side who spoke out his mind independently of party control. (Laughter) It is my fervent hope that he has been able to influence some of the Government members to see the reasonableness of this motion. We on this side of the House are like mothers feeding good milk to obstreperous babies. (Laughter) The milk is good for them but they will not take it. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Cows are good for you too. Mr GUZANA: I can understand the feelings of the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland because he wanted to have second bite from the cherry. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: Who told you that? Mr GUZANA: My view is that he would have spoken in a manner contrary to that he had done before. The whole argument from the Government side has been one of terrorism. They are frightening themselves out of the good idea of going into an upper house. They say they are going to have their throats cut. They say they will be going into a deep-freeze. They say they will be a rubber stamp. The hon. member down at the tail end of the governing party is saying: Yes, yes, that is what we feel. (Laughter) What has he done to contribute to the debate in this House ― a debate on this motion or on any other subject in this House? If there is need for putting anybody in a deep-freeze, that hon. member is a good

Mr C. DIKO: You said yesterday that some have been born great. Mr GUZANA: Yes, some have been born great, to live in the gutter (Laughter) and therefore they should be kept in the gutter where they belong. Then there was that partisan sentiment - an appeal to the chiefs that they should all as a block of chiefs vote against this motion, and probably it is because of their majority membership in this House that people can have the impertinence to make that cheap appeal, as if chiefs have distinguished themselves in administrative functions to such a degree that they would be regarded as indispensable. How many of them have blundered in their administrative functions, blundered in exercising civil jurisdiction, where matters heard before the chief's court have been brought up by way of appeal to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court, 90% of them. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon, members, to me the speaker seems to be attacking the chiefs instead of sticking to the motion and justifying the need for an upper house. Order, please. I am trying to bring light to the speaker who is attacking you viciously and you are making a noise, chiefs. (Laughter) 255

the mind of an individual associate the upper house of chiefs with the opening for terrorism, as if when the chiefs are in the upper house they shall lose their administrative functions, they shall lose the position of head of the tribe? May I tell the chiefs just one little thing with the development of commerce and industry, with industrialization, with urbanization, tribalism is tottering into the grave. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: How long will that take? Mr GUZANA: It will be so quick that you won't know what has hit you, and soon you will realise that you have to cease to be tribalistic in your administration in the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. I do not want the chiefs to be left in the lurch when tribalism disappears, I want them to be entrenched in the upper house for all time, Tribalism or no tribalism, industrialization or no industrialization, they will be there for all time. (Interjections) CHIEF MINISTER : You want to put them in the cold, in a refrigerator. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr GUZANA: Now, Mr Chairman, what do I do with this interjection?

Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman , I am merely reacting to what was said by the chiefs. Deputy Chairman: Please stick to the motion. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, how can I let their sentiments go without reacting to them? That is how they talked on this motion. Let me say that it has been suggested that this motion has been moved by this side of the House because of sour grapes. (Interjections) To spell it out more clearly for those who do not understand, it was suggested that we sought to move the chiefs to the upper house because the majority of the chiefs does not support the Opposition ― understood now? and that if the chiefs were supporting the Opposition then we would be happy about their membership here. I think we can regard this idea with the contempt it deserves. This side has survived for ten years in spite of the crowd of chiefs that is on the Government side. Put together they have not been able to wipe out the Opposition in spite of their efforts to do so. (Interjections) The hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland says we are dying. If we are dying there is never a more vicious kick from a horse than when it is dying, but if you feel the pinch now we are very much alive. (Laughter) May I implore the chiefs to see reason. May I implore them to see how objective this motion is. May I implore them to be selfcentred by supporting this motion. May I implore them to preserve themselves by giving support to this motion. Only the other day in Lebowa the Chief Minister of the Legislative Assembly, who is a chief, moved in the House that there should be an upper house of chiefs. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Is Lebowa the Transkei? Mr GUZANA: He did so because he feels that in order to perpetuate the institution of chieftainship these men must be accorded dignity in an upper house away from elected members. Are you going to say that the chiefs in Lebowa are more stupid than you are? (Laughter) Or are you going to say they are wiser than you are? I would be sorry if our chiefs were to be classified in that fashion, for I see a glimmer of hope and intelligence in some of you. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Stick to the motion. Mr GUZANA: I am sticking to the motion like glue. Sometimes I just wonder what this Assembly would be like if I did not come along and tell you these home truths. (Laughter). Then, of course, only yesterday we had a most revealing utterance from the hon. member from Butterworth. Now he is an elected member and I handle elected members with kid gloves, and if you do not understand what he said, may I say in plain language that he feels that chiefs should go into an upper house. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: He did not say so. Mr GUZANA: The hon, the Minister of Agriculture says he did not say so. The English language is not one of "a" and "i" and "u". It is something much more intricate and expressive than that, and so some of you may miss the idea because they do not understand the language which is used. (Interjections) Let us be constructive and move with the times. If you are traditionalists and you are steeped in tribalism, at least in the tribal set-up you do not get commoners and chiefs living and discussing cheek by jowl but you want to eat your cake and have it and have the good things of both systems, both in the tribal set up and in the democratic set-up. At one stage you want to be accorded the prestige and the dignity and the position of chiefs and at another stage you want to be regarded as political leaders. The two things do not mix. How does

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Stick to the motion. Mr GUZANA: I want them to live for all time. They argue (for the benefit of the Chief Minister) that they will be in a deep-freeze in the upper house, but how can a man like you, the Chief Minister, be in a fridge in the upper house with all your intelligence, with all your integrity, with all your education? How is it possible to regard your sons who are at the School for Chiefs, your sons who are at Lovedale and Fore Hare - how can it be suggested that those people will come out sans mind, sans thought, sans reaction? If anything, they will invigorate that upper house and make it a live adjunct of the Legislative Assembly which is purely an elected body. Or is it that the present membership fears that it will not know what we mean by an Appropriation Bill when it gets to them? (Laughter) When we talk of a bill carrying certain provisions and other incidental matters, you will ask: What is this incidental matter now? Probably this incidental matter means cutting our throats. (Laughter) Let us not undermine our chiefs. Let us do something positive for them. They are our chiefs and I would like to know if any chief has had his "induna" or counsellor working for the destruction of his chief. I would like that chief to put up his hand. Come on! (Laughter) Yes indeed, your position is secured by the commoner, your subject, and the speaker here is one of those subjects . Am I doing you harm? I am sure you will all vote for this motion which gives you dignity. Thank you, Mr Chairman. (General disorder) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will only start speaking when you finish. Tell me when you have finished. I want discipline in this House. Motion put and lost. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, I am a bit worried about the conduct of members during sittings. I refer you to regulation 33(j) of the rules of this House, which says that when the Assembly adjourns the members must keep their places until the Chairman or Deputy Crairman has left. There is a tendency among you that when I descend from this platform , before I even get to the door there is a lot of talking and moving around.That must come to a dead stop. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m, on Friday, 26th April 1974.

256

surprise and was not ready to speak on this motion because I have my notes at home. If I am not mistaken this motion has been brought before the House three or four times. As I have stated, it could be the third or fourth time that the motion has been before the House. This indicates that there is something questionable about this Proclamation R400. We say we want to be allowed freedom of speech and to be able to speak to people whenever we have meetings. I dispute that this question of the proclamation only refers to the Opposition. It is a matter which pertains to all citizens of the Transkei. Transkeian citizens know that this proclamation exists and they wish it to be repealed . Further, people are aware of the fact that this proclamation gives power to the chiefs to see that people are being prosecuted when it is not necessary to do so. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr JAFTA: Even if you are a member of the Assembly you are not allowed to make a report-back on matters which have been dealt with. (Interjections) The trouble arises when you want to speak to people and you have no permit. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Why don't you get a permit? Mr JAFTA: On occasions when you want to meet people on Saturdays the magistrate is not available and you cannot obtain a permit. It is only all right as long as you say something good in regard to the Government (Laughter) That is exactly why I say this is a dangerous proclamation. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: There is interference in this House caused by certain dialogues down in the corner there. Please give the hon. member his opportunity to speak to the finish. Mr JAFTA: I see some unrest among certain members when I say this proclamation gives the chiefs some authority to prosecute people. It is usually said by the members that this proclamation is far from being dangerous if we go and talk to people, though they know that we are prohibited from holding meetings and speaking to any number of people in excess of ten. I wonder why they should entertain such fears? As it is quite evident that you also realise this is a dangerous proclamation because people are liable to prosecution, you should make arrangements that this proclamation be repealed. If anyone breaks the law there are courts where cases can be heard, but our main complaint is this: Why should we Transkeian people be under such a proclamation over a period of ten years? As I have already stated, all the Ministers who come to open our sessions here have repeatedly stated that there is peace in the Transkei. Why is it, therefore, that the Government of the Transkei cannot release the people of the Transkei from this oppressive proclamation? The hon. member for Tabankulu stated that in Tabankulu district there are certain disturbances, but although there may be such uprisings it does not mean that this proclamation should be retained. There are officers who are well known in the Department of Justice who can make regulations without retaining this proclamation. As I have stated, there are certain aspects in which the chiefs who have the authority under this proclamation are in the habit of prosecuting people. I do not want to cite any particular incidents but I am merely speaking generally in connexion with this proclamation. This is an old proclamation and we do not know why it should be retained in any democratic state. I ask the hon. the Minister of Justice to be a true Minister of Justice and request the Republican Government to repeal this proclamation. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Mr Chair-

FRIDAY, 26th APRIL, 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. Chief Nelson Sigcau of Flagstaff has been away from the House for several days and I received a telegram to the effect that he is ill and is unable to attend the session. Mr Chairman, the movers of Motions Nos. 4, 16, 17 and 5 have intimated to me that they are not ready to proceed with these motions and they should stand over till Monday. I would that we fire on with Motion No. 10, as I am certain that everyone is ready with their bullets for this motion. That is the motion on Proclamation R400. REPEAL OF PROCLAMATION R400 Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have been taken by surprise and I am not quite ready for this motion. However, I shall continue without my notes and I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should request the Republican Government to repeal Proclamation R400 in the Transkei." Mr Chairman, this proclamation was introduced on account of certain disturbances which occurred in Pondoland during 1960. Those were very serious uprisings which emanated on account of certain conditions. After some time, however, those disturbances were brought to an end, and everybody knows they were brought to an end. During the last ten years, whenever the session is opened by the Republican Minister who has been allotted to the duty of opening the Assembly, he invariably declares that there is peace in this country and he states clearly and with undoubted truth that there is peace. As a matter of fact, it is so. I know that years ago there were some little differences with people arising from certain faction fights, but that does not mean to say that people should always be placed under these restrictions contained in Proclamation R400. This proclamation brings some hardship on us and one of the hardships which we experience is that though we are members of this Assembly it is only with difficulty that we are able to convene meetings, except when one has obtained a permit from the magistrate. This difficulty is experienced when it would be quite easy to hold a meeting with the people, but the requirement is that one must first obtain a permit from the magistrate. This creates a lot of difficulty. Again, you cannot speak to people freely because you have no permit. For this reason we make this application that the proclamation should be done away with. As I have stated, this has created a great deal of difficulty, to the extent that people cannot live in a peaceful manner. Because this proclamation applies only in the Transkei and nowhere else it causes people to have many complaints. We were altogether with the hon, the Chief Minister at Sulenkama and this matter was brought up, and there are many other places where this is brought up. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is it only at the Opposition meetings that this is asked? The only place I have been asked for this is East London and nowhere else. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Have you been anywhere else? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, in Johannesburg and all over. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr JAFTA: What I am saying now is well known to everyone. As I have already stated, I was taken by

257

don't perch on Proclamation R400 it will do you no harm. The hon, member speaks of meetings. Yes, meetings are prohibited unless you have a permit to hold that meeting, but what is difficult in going to get a permit for meetings that you know? When you go back from parliament you draw up your itinerary and you go to the magistrate and apply for a permit. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : Sometimes you are invited to meetings without a permit having been obtained · MINISTER OF JUSTICE : How can you be invited to an unlawful meeting? If at all you are invited to a meeting, first of all the meeting must be lawful. Mr MADIKIZELA: The headmen call lawful meetings but we are unable to attend those meetings to address them.

man, I would like to put this question to the hon, member. We are looking forward to our independence and you are requesting that Proclamation R400 be done away with? Mr JAFTA: Mr Chairman, I was still asking the hon. the Minister of Justice to make representations to the Republican Government for the repeal of this proclamation. (Laugher) The hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland is asking me how we shall enter into an independent state when we ask that this proclamation should be repealed. As far as I know this proclamation has nothing whatsoever to do with independence in the Transkei. I do not know the reason for the fears entertained by the ruling side. If they have fears those fears are known only to them. My motion is quite clear as it has been introduced many times into this House. The hon. the Minister of Justice should take this question into serious consideration as Minister of Justice. Mr Chairman, I move accordingly. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: I second . MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the mover of this motion when moving this motion started off by taking us back to the year 1960 when there were disturbances in Eastern Pondoland and reminded us that Proclamation R400 of 1960 was enacted in order to suppress the uprisings in Eastern Pondoland. He further alleged that since the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland subsided there was no reason to retain Proclamation R400. I would like to know of a wise man who, after having ammunition and weapons to fight a certain enemy and after defeating his enemy, throws his weapons and ammunition into the sea; and I would like to know how that wise man would ever be able to fight another enemy of such nature should such an enemy arise. Mr JAFTA: Through emergency regulations which can be introduced when necessary .

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Headmen are capable of calling you to meetings and they have a reason for calling you to have a meeting, and if you go to that meeting • Mr MADIKIZELA: We haven't a permit to address the meeting politically. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If the headman holds a political meeting he must get a permit for it and if you are invited to address that meeting you don't transgress any law. The trouble is you go to a wedding, you go to "mtshotsho" dances, you go to all these places and you start addressing people on political issues. If at all you go to Ntlombe at Willowvale I know you do that, and if those occasions turn into a political meeting the person who organised it is in trouble. I have my suspicion that the reason why hon. members are worried about Proclamation R400 is because they want to hold surreptitious meetings . (Interjections) Mr MADIKIZELA: We are responsible people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If you are responsible people you must be responsible enough to come and get a permit for your meeting. I have held meetings in most places in the Transkei and the tribesmen have never asked me about this Proclamation R400, unless there are people like you. Mr K. M. GUZANA: How can they dare ask the Minister of Justice who is the custodian of the law if he has complied with the law? How can they? Don't ask for the impossible.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Nos, that is the misnomer that you give to Proclamation R400 - that they are emergency regulations - and that misnomer is usually given by people like the mover of this motion who do not know much about Proclamation R400, except for the question of meetings. Proclamation R400 of 1960 provides a means whereby an area which is a troubled area can be declared a prohibited area, and therefore that can be termed an emergency state, and that is provided under Part 3, section 4 of Proclamation R400 of 1960. Proclamation R400 is an enactment which is retained in order that when a situation arises it should be resorted to. I well remember in 1960 when these disturbances started in Eastern Pondoland, weeks and months passed by with people and chiefs dying in E.Pondoland and nothing could be done because there was no weapon by which such disturbances could be suppressed. The laws that you referred to were there, but they were useless as far as the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland were concerned. It was only after the enactment of Proclamation R400 of 1960 that the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland could be contained and suppressed . The mover of this motion is correct when he avers that we always say that Proclamation R400 does no harm to anybody who does not transgress the provisions of that proclamation. I remember what was said once by the late Mr B. B. Mdledle in this very House. He gave me example of certain crows which had a meeting and one old crow said: "You see that windmill, it will destroy you when you perch on it." Then another crow stood up and said: "Now listen, has that windmill ever come to you, or do you go and perch on the windmill ?” Proclamation R400 is exactly in the same position. If you

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I say I have held meetings throughout the Transkei and I have never been asked about Proclamation R400. Mr GUZANA: Without a permit? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: My meetings are always held with permits. I always go to the magistrate and ask. The hon. member for Qumbu knows that I addressed meetings in Qumbu and they were always with permits. (Interjections) The hon. member for Mqanduli knows that I addressed meetings at Mqanduli and I had a permit. Mr GUZANA: You don't get a permit. You just go into the magistrate's office and say "Ha-ha”. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do get a permit for all meetings. Even the hon, the Chief Minister gets a permit. I think hon. members are just lazy to do their work and that is to apply for permits beforehand. It is a simple matter and, furthermore, Proclamation R400 is intended to keep the dignity of the chiefs, which is always assaulted by some hon. members. Mr GUZANA: Why should this be in an emergency proclamation? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is because of the troubles and disturbances which are usually initiated by people who go to the tribesmen and speak badly about the chiefs. CHIEF MINISTER : We are going to repeal that pro-

258

clamation and re-enact it with the same provisions. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We know very well that the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland were initiated by people who went to the tribesmen and told them how bad the chiefs were and how bad the tribal authorities were. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Ngquza. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is true: We know that at Ngquza there were certain people who incited the tribesmen. Mr GUZANA: So you continue to protect these political heads with Proclamation R400 and make them immune from criticism.

out of his area of jurisdiction, but this section is still soft enough to say he will remove him from one place to another within his area of jurisdiction. Mr GUZANA: That is not being soft. He still loses. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is still soft in that the loss was greater in the olden days when a person had to go right out of the area of jurisdiction of the chief and wander about in other areas looking for a place to stay. Mr GUZANA: This is beastly. Sit down! MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am not going to sit down. I still have lots to say and lots of time to say it. Subsection (b) says : "to cause the demolition of any hut or dwelling owned by or occupied by any Native referred to in paragraph (a) or members of his household situate at the place from which he has been ordered to move without incurring any liability to any person for compensation for the value of such hut or dwelling." Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Very ungodly. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, but when you treat your chief with contempt you are ungodly too. Mr GUZANA: You treat these chiefs like sacred COWS. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, the point is they were placed there by the Almighty to look after their subjects. Mr GUZANA: What errors of creation ! MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are a preacher and in church you say: We speak to our chiefs and our chiefs speak to God. Mr GUZANA: Never! MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You have no right to speak to God without going through your chief, (Laughter) so that anybody who transgresses the power of the chiefs transgresses the power of God. (Laughter) Mr GUZANA: You are reading the Bible upside down, that is the trouble. (Laughter). MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which Bible do you read? I can give you chapter and verse. Mr Chairman, this side of the House will retain this proclamation until such time as some of these people who want to visit other people in the night and kill them cease to do that type of thing. The hon. member for Tabankulu had a lot to say about the disturbances that there are even at the present time in Pondoland, and yeserday he further said that his fears are that the disturbances that are there at the present moment seem to have a similarity to how the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland started in 1960. You heard me saying that we were taking that very seriously, and if need be we shall resort to Proclamation R400 to suppress those disturbances . Mr MADIKIZELA: But it is in force right now. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I say we shall resort to it. The other time a mobile unit had to be sent to Lusikisiki to go and suppress some of the disturbances there, so, hon. members, you must understand and know that Proclamation R400 is kept for a bigger purpose, and that is the internal security of the Transkei. As I said, there are very few people in the Transkei who know about the existence of this proclamation, in as much as there are very few people in the country who know about the Stock Theft Act, and the thieves can quote you some of the sections in the Stock Theft Act and, of course, I am tempted to say that even murderers can quote you sections in Proclamation R400 of 1960 . Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in fact in all the changes that there be, in associating myself with this motion I would say without fear that this old proclamation which is one which has been inherited from the Republican Government should be taken and thrown back there. The hon, the Minister of

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We protect everybody by the provisions of this proclamation. Mr GUZANA: They don't protect me, they protect the chiefs. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They do, they protect everybody. I will read a section which protects you too. Part 6, section 11 reads: "Any person who makes any statement verbally or in writing or does any act which is intended or is likely to have the effect of subverting or interfering with the authority of the State, the Chief Native Commissioner, Native Commissioner or any other officer in the employ of the State or any chief or headman . . ."" Mr GUZANA: I am not a headman. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, I am coming to that. "(b) makes any statement verbally or in writing or does any act which consists of or contains any threat that 99 You are "any person". any person Mr GUZANA: Just read on. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : 66 ... will be subject to any boycott or will suffer any violence, loss, disadvantage or inconvenience in his person or property or in the person or property of any member of his family and household . . ." You see, it protects you. Mr GUZANA: It does not give me anything. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It doesn't have to give you anything, it merely protects you . You said you are not a headman and I am telling you you are "any person", so being any person you come under subsection (b) . Mr GUZANA: Fancy that! I don't need Proclamation R400 to be protected . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It doesn't matter whether you need it. Other people need it. Mr GUZANA: The law provides protection. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This is the law. Mr JAFTA: And demolishing of houses? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Houses? I will read that. I am not ashamed of it because it is an enactment of what happened long ago. Removal of subject by chief ― we are not ashamed of it because it happened long ago to subjects like you who did not subject themselves to the authority of the chiefs, and it will still happen. Section 12 reads: "It shall be competent for any chief authorized thereto by the Minister either generally or in "" (Laughter) Yes, respect of any particular Native . you Natives! CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, it is intended for you 66 Natives. (Laughter) (a) to order without prior notice to any Native concerned a Native to remove with the members of his household and any livestock and moveable property from a place within the area of jurisdiction of such chief to any other place specified by such chief within such area either permanently or for such period as specified by such chief. " You know, this section is still soft. In the olden times when the chief punished a subject he would kick him completely

259

Justice asks why we should worry ourselves about a' tattered blanket. A blanket which is in rags is usually worn by boys and not by men. From the excerpts read by the hon. Minister from this proclamation it is quite clear that this is a very pernicious proclamation. We would first like to know why this proclamation was ever introduced. It is stated that it was introduced because of certain disturbances. These uprisings were quelled and in the Republic where this proclamation was introduced it has been done away with. Why should we retain this thing when in fact there are no serious disturbances in the Transkei. An important question was asked by the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland to the effect that as we are going for independence now, how can we repeal this proclamation. If we are going to enjoy an independent state should we go there in manacles? (Interjections) One chief says when we enter into independence we will be well armed. Why should you have to be armed instead of arming yourselves? He says we have been armed, but I maintain we have been handcuffed. Why should I say so? You clearly heard the hon. Minister when he read out these extracts and used the word "Native". I heard the hon, members laugh, but I had no cause to laugh. What is Native with a capital N? He read out some very cruel provisions. The Prime Minister too is a native of this country, with a small n. I am a native with a small n too. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : You will be sent to Robben Island. MR. MGUDLWA: Then if I am taken to Robben Island I will still find people there. I will find people just like me. The hon. the Minister of Justice says this proclamation is to stop all surreptitious meetings and that it safeguards the dignity of the chiefs. He further stated that the chiefs are people who are born and ordained by divine right. Why is it that this proclamation was initiated by someone in Pretoria who was never even a chief? That is why I say this proclamation is like an old tattered blanket. I have never seen an uncircumcized boy clothing a man who has been circumcised. I have only witnessed men who perform that duty. I have never even seen a recently circumsized boy being attended to by an uncircumcized boy. This proclamation is the child of another parliament and you have never introduced such a proclamation. You are holding on to proclamations which were not promulgated by you. In fine, I associate myself with this motion. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am almost disheartened to find a lot of political dishonesty from the hon. members of the Opposition . Let us look into the value of things. Now, some people are worried about a man who is removed by his chief from one spot to the other. What I want the hon. members to look into is this: This man who is removed from his area to another part has killed two or ten people in his area and he is still in danger of killing more people in that particular area. (Interjections) No, the people in so far as that section 12 is concerned are the people who threaten and even kill their chiefs and the people in that particular area. Now, unfortunately some of the people who speak in this House are not versed in administration difficulties . Every chief and headman here will agree with me that in most cases you take these things to the police and the police say under the present law they cannot detain this person. They cannot detain these persons - not even one, and there are many. So don't you think it reasonable that when such a situation arises R400 is a help? You see, some of you are civilized and

260

stay in civilized areas. You have never been in a situation where people want to kill your wife just because they think she is a witch. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Is this for witches now? Mr DIKO: No, I am telling you it is the law for people who kill others, and what objection should these people have? I want to tell my friend in the corner there, the hon. member for Mqanduli, he has never been in a most backward area in Pondoland. People who originate in the Ciskei where they were civilised four hundred years ago don't know about these things. Now, I want to say that these people in the Ciskei up to this stage have no intention of killing each other. There are no such things in the Ciskei as faction fights and there are no things at Ncambedlana like Mbombele so he must honestly tell us in this House what things could be done to curb these Mbombela people who are existing now. I told you yesterday that many women, many children and many aged men were now living in forests, living in dongas living in bushes. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : In spite of Proclamation R400. Mr DIKO: It is in spite of that, but the Republican police have not reported the affair to the man who is responsible for Proclamation R400. Now, if that was reported that thing would be stopped in two weeks' time, so that is one good side of R400 and you are getting that information from a man who has been arrested more than once under Proclamation R400. I have been arrested. Now, I have no quarrel with R400 because I was arrested. (Laughter) The purpose of arresting and detaining a man is to investigate the allegations against him, so what is good enough in Proclamation R400 is that it gives the opportunity to the police to arrest a man who is suspected and the investigation can be carried out without his interference. Now, the mover of the motion says there is peace. Is he being honest, or what definition has he got for peace? Never mind what the Ministers of the Republic says, I want to know from you, a Transkeian. Never mind what a man says from the Republic. Do you honestly say there is peace? Yes, if there is peace in Qumbu, Willowvale, therefore don't think there is peace all over the Transkei. If people are being murdered is there peace in that particular spot, be it Qaukeni or Willowvale? So what we are concerned with is protection of life, is protection of human rights. So this Proclamation R400 does not interfere with anybody. It only works and is only applied when somebody disturbs another man's privileges or rights. Now, why I am inclined to think there is nonsensical thinking in the minds of members who have slave mentality is because they have said a thing in 1964 where, in a way, there was peace and orderliness in the country (Laughter) but you must not say it in 1974, even when there are disturbances. So this time we need Proclamation R400 because there are disturbances. It does not matter what place it is, but what I want these people to understand - the hon. members of this Legislative Assembly ―is that this thing is spreading, hon. members of the Assembly, the disturbances that are existing now. No we have heard that at Welkom there was killing and fighting. That is in the Republic. Mr K. M. GUZANA: They don't have Proclamation R400 there. Mr DIKO: So the fire will soon come to Ncambedlana, will come to Willowvale, and when it comes I am sure the hon. member for Ncambedlana will rush to the Minister and say: Please protect me, please protect my family. (Laughter)

Mr GUZANA: There is no member for Ncambedlana. Mr DIKO: So what we seek and what we want is order in our country, in our state. Now I want to educate these hon. members on the other side. Rather than move a motion which seeks to repeal R400 you should kindly draw the attention of the hon. Minister that at the moment Proclamation R400 is not properly applied. With all due respect to the members of the Special Branch and with all their courtesy they are finding it difficult to work with the Republican police. The members of the South African Police are not cooperating in so far as the situation is concerned . Where they get the idea and impression that a Native, as my learned friend said there, is a dog or a something not to be cared for, I do not know. So what they should learn now is that as a force their duty is to protect life, protect property, and they must value human life - it does not matter what colour that man is. Even if he is an Indian his life is very important (Laughter) so the way they should act is the way the Special Branch is acting to be courteous and responsible to everybody. Now when I spoke about political dishonesty I meant this the mover of the motion knows very well when they were in trouble they ran, his supposed leader ran to the magistrate of Engcobo and said: Please stop Mgudlwa, I don't want him to have that meeting. And he was applying Proclamation R400. (Laughter) Now, what right have you to apply Proclamation R400 for your own purpose when you say it is a bad thing, and now this nincompoop who has gone out now does not understand that he was once protected by Proclamation R400. It was only due to the mercies of the magistrate who protected the hon. members of Engcobo when their meeting was being disbanded by a certain group of political nonentities. So what I want you to understand is that we chiefs, we royalists, seek to disturb nobody's life. All we seek is to protect dignity in the Transkei, so get it deep down in your mind that the purpose of this proclamation is protection of life and property. Unfortunately the hon. member of Engcobo is not here. What I want to say to the Opposition is that you must be constructive. You must see reason in things that are sensible. Value the life of the people you represent in this House. Now, if you are against the Republican Government, don't be against things that protect you here. So all the arguments which have been advanced by the last speaker were only directed against the Republican Government. Proclamation R400 has nothing to do with the Republican Government. It has been asked for by the people of the Transkei because of circumstances and things that existed at the time. Lastly, to finish the whole thing, these people who do not know politics, what do you think about the infiltration of terrorists from up north? According to the Press reports these people up north in Rhodesia and Mozambique are killing the aborigines of those very countries . Can we sincerely and safely say these people are freedom fighters? Why should they kill the people of their own country and their own origin? So you can see that these people are drifting down to the Transkei. We must be very careful and we must watch. Now, people are usually talking about the disturbances in 1960. That was not only the Pondos, and I can point out some people who were there. Some Engcobo people were there, some were from Willowvale (Laughter) and some from Umtata here. I know them. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr DIKO: So when that mushroom is growing there, the Mbombela, if we don't kill it at once you are going to find some of these political upstarts in those meet-

ings. I am going down this weekend and I am going to find some of them in those meetings. I must warn you I will take your names and I will report you and have you arrested. (Laughter) So that is the most dangerous thing. We must unite in keeping this Proclamation R400. No, honestly, I appeal to you, Chief Majeke the honourable - Proclamation R400 is for your protection. Let us be united. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon membetrs, I think throughout my political career I have never seen such an exhibition of political dishonesty as has characterised the manoeuvres of the last speaker. He has warned us against political dishonesty. Now, since he is the personification of political dishonesty I think he should be the first man to take the warning to heart. Those who were in this Assembly for the last ten years know how Mr C. DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we shall not tolerate anybody going out of the subject and discussing my person. The motion here is on Proclamation R400. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is educated enough to know that we are dealing with the abolition of Proclamation R400 and he is quite aware of the regulations of this House in regard to the attack on individuals outside the question before the House. Please let us come to the topic and be pertinent. Mr GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is because I am aware of these strictures that I want to point out to this House that the hon. member, during the first five years from 1963 to 1968, spoke vehemently against Proclamation R400 and today he is defending it. I am therefore proving that he is politically dishonest. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr GUZANA: Today he is eulogizing the proclamation and he says it is our best armour against what he described as "terrorists". As far as I know, the best means of protecting oneself against a bullet is to wear a steel vest, and Proclamation R400 will not keep the terrorist bullet away from your body. The misconception is that laws and regulations, restrictions and inhibitions are the best form of fighting terrorism; that the more limited is your liberty, the more circumscribed is your activity, the more secure you are against terrorism. They don't seem to realise that restriction engenders restlessness and restiveness, and so in your legislative etffort to keep out terrorism you are inversely generating unrest and disturbance within your ranks by reason of your restrictions and inhibitions. The best guarantee against terrorism is to make the people happy, to give them work, to give them food; and a contented population is the best guarantee against terrorism. Remove the cause of unrest among your own ranks and nobody can superimpose unrest amongst your people. Let us remember that when we speak of freedom one of the attributes which we seek to hold sacrosant is the right of the individual to free speech, and that in the exercise of that freedom of speech criticism is not necessarily subversion. Any critical comment which happens to cause uneasiness to a chief or a headman or subheadman brings upon the speaker the harsh consequences of Proclamation R400, so that you cannot support the retention of Proclamation R400 on the one hand and again champion the freedom of speech on the other hand. If your intensity of support is strong for the maintenance of Proclamation R400 then you are merely paying lip service to freedom of speech on the other hand. In any democratic country the individual liberty is valued more than most things, and you don't

261

lose that liberty unless and until you have breached the law or you have been found guilty of an offence before a court of law, so that in a democratic state we uphold the principle of no punishment before conviction. Now, Proclamation R400 provides for the curtailment of your liberty even before you have been proved guilty. You will be detained indefinitely until the police have finished nosing about, but in the meantime you have lost your liberty before you have been convicted of any crime. The provision of Proclamation R400 therefore negative some of the basic rights of a citizen of a democratic country and one of these is a person's liberty. The Englishman says a man's home is his castle, and everywhere we say we have a right to have a home and the privacy of that home must be protected. One of the basic principles of a free country is that no-one can interfere with your residence in your home .. Mr DIKO: What about people attacking you and committing arson? Mr GUZANA: so much so that you can kill in order to retain the sanctity and the privacy of your home. The law of the country, in order to recognize this fact, requires a police officer to have a warrant to enter a person's house. Under Proclamation R400 people can be arrested without warrant, men may disappear under the cover of night and nobody can explain where they have gone to because Proclamation R400 provides for that. One then asks the question : Can anybody say we can move into independence when our rights are being curtailed by Proclamation R400? Obviously, therefore, our attitudes and our conceptions about the rights of the individual are circumscribed by selfishness and we have not reached a state of mind and attitude ready enough fo rindependence. What is going to ready enough for independence. What is going to happen, for instance, to people who want to speak out on the question of independence when they know that they may become the victim of Proclamation R400? At no time, so long as we have Proclamation R400, are we able to get a sincere and frank expression of people's thinking on matters of national importance , because there is that political windmill, Proclamation R400, flaying the air day and night and the argument for it justifying its existence is that it does not come to the crow ― it is the crow that will go to it and get hurt. If we argue by the same analogy we might allow high-voltage wires to crisscross the pavements and the streets of Umtata and say to the people: It is your own fault if you put your foot on this. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 29th April 1974.

MONDAY, 29th APRIL, 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, Chief Stanford Sigcau will be absent from the Assembly as he has been called home. I think this is probably a very important message, Mr Chairman. Also, Chief Douglas Ndamase has been away on important official matters.

the Xhosa version. I therefore crave the indulgence of this House to ask that this third reading be allowed to stand down. Agreed to. REPEAL OF PROCLAMATION R400 The debate was resumed. CHIEF MGCAWEZULU MTIRARA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as the hon. the Minister of Justice has already mentioned, this Proclamation R400 has not yet enterferred with anyone. All that it aims at is to maintain peace and it does not interefere with the rights of other people, to the extent that in spite of all the disturbances which have taken place they have not got to the stage they should have reached had this proclamation not been there. The aim of this piece of legislation is to maintain order and to assist us as we are now aspiring to be an independent state. Many speakers, such as the hon. Mr Diko, have voiced their support of this proclamation. I do not know what is really worrying the minds of the hon. members of the Opposition. I do not know whether their aim is to go to the electorate when this proclamation has been repealed and tell them they can do as they like because Proclamation R400 has been abolished. As I am one who has witnessed these disturbances both in Pondoland and in my own area of Mqanduli I do not see now why this proclamation should be repealed . In my own area people were shot down, buildings were set alight and had this proclamation not been in operation I do not know how we would have restored peace. I appeal to the mover of this motion to rest in peace even if he had promised his electorate that he would ask for the repeal of this proclamation. The Opposition side has several times proposed the abolition of this proclamation. I do not know what the aim whether they of the supporters of this motion is want to hold meetings which the law does not allow, because if meetings are convened legally they always get permission to hold those meetings. We have heard there have been disturbances in Pondoland by an organisation known as "Mbombela" and through the operation of this proclamation the situation is under control. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Is it under control? CHIEF MTITARA: We say the governing side is looking forward to the maintenance of peace. People know well what they could do in the absence of this proclamation, but because it is in operation it acts as a deterrent. As we are in these various administrative areas there are many individuals who are prone to break the law. Hon. members of the Opposition, we are looking forward to a state where we shall obtain independence and that is why it is necessary that this proclamation be retained. Even if we do not attain independence we shall maintain this law because it does not interfere with anyone. I now appeal to the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, that he should not worry because there is nothing irksome in the provisions of this proclamation. I do not want to be lengthy and elaborate on this proclamation because time and again this proclamation. I do not want to be lengthy and we have explained its purport. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I will not be lengthy on this question because it has been sufficiently canvassed. I will state briefly my own opinion of this Proclamation R400. As far as the black people are concerned this is a grievous matter because people generally find themselves imprisoned under this proclamation. Those people who

PRISONS BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as I said last time when I was dealing with the committee stage of this bill, the Xhosa version is with the printers and they are not yet ready with 262

R

are on Robben Island. As a person who has been in the liberation movement as far back as 1950 I am going to educate him. I never met him in the African National Congress, neither did I see him in the circles of the AAC, neither did I see him in the ANC Youth League, nor was he a member of the banned African Congress. The first time I met him in a political association was in this Assembly. The people who are on Robben Island are leaders of the African nation, some of whom served with me on the African National Congress Executive, and I have the highest respect for those gentlemen but I must bring in this explanation before the members of this Assembly - that in the late 1940s during the time when the late Dr A. B. Xuma was President-General of the African National Congress from 1943 up to 1949 there was a pressure group which was the African National Congress Youth League. I belonged to that organization but, though we were in the African National Congress, Congress at the time had begun to become pink in colour because of the infiltration of the Communist element. We were following then a very important leader, the late Lembede who was the protagonist of African nationalism , and his contemporaries in the shaping up of the policy of the ANC were such stalwarts as Oliver Tambo, Walter Sisulu and others . Those are the people who revived African nationalism in the southern hemisphere. There is absolutely nothing wrong with African nationalism , as there is nothing wrong with it now because everybody has to be proud of his national identity. As the years went by, in 1949 in Bloemfontein the able leadership of the late Dr. Xuma of the African National Congress was ousted and Dr. J. S. Moroka was elected leader. OPPOSITION MEMBER : Come to the motion. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I am coming to the background of Proclamation R400. It did not take Dr. Xuma a long time until he lost the leadership. He was ousted because at the time there was formed what we called the "Alliance Congress " which included Indians, Coloureds, Africans and even Whites. It is these Whites who had a communistic ideology who made Congress deviate from its policy of African nationalism; and later on we had what we called the "Congress of the People" which was held in Kliptown in 1955, and the principles of the Congress of the People at the time were communistic in ideology. The Communists had indoctrinated our people into accepting their communistic outlook. The security of the state was at stake because Communism believes in revolution. The Congress took a positive line against the introduction of the Bantu Authorities Act, the All Africa Convention was against chieftainship, and in a book which was written by I. B. Tabata there is a paragraph even aiming at the assassination of chiefs. (Interjections) It is then that the ANC had a splinter group called the Pan-African Congress because of the attitude of this Congress of the Alliance who then instigated the trouble that took place in Pondoland. Many lives were lost there. The Ahrenstein who was an attorney in Durban was right in the Congress of the Alliance. And where are they now? We have lost many a life of our fellow-Africans. How many of our leaders have been sent to the gallows, how many of our leaders are rotting on Robben Island because of Communism which infiltrated the African National Congress! It is very important that if the Transkeian Government has to maintain order and peace in these territories Proclamation R400 should be sustained, because when all these organizations were banned ― the Pan-African Congress, the ANC, the Congress of Democrats - there was a decision that

want to retain this proclamation state that it is a protective measure. How can this proclamation stop people from molesting one another? Mr C. DIKO: It detains people without the interferences of an attorney ,and that is what we want. Mr XOBOLOLO: In the midst of these very locations fights are still taking place and people are killed. Even in municipal locations people are killed. It has been stated that this proclamation causes no worry to anyone except those who break the law. By way of supporting this proclamation they say it does not interfere with anyone except those who break the law. Mr Chairman, there is a regulation in connection with influx control, and all the black people complain about influx control. My question is : When did this influx control go to anyone's residence and when did it cause someone to be arrested ? When a person leaves his place because he is experiencing difficulties he immediately comes up against this proclamation. A person has been given senses enough and, as a sensitive being, when he goes out into the street he comes up against this law. The second point is that as it has been intimated that the black races should form a federation , are we as Transkeian citizens going to join such a federation whilst we are under the provisions of Proclamation R400? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes. Mr XOBOLOLO : It should be rememberetd that the Republican Government stinks today because of its cruel laws. Are we going to allow ourselves to become disliked as well because we retain these repulsive regulations? (Interjections) Mr Chairman, it is quite a common thing for people to be removed to Robben Island. As the members of this House pride themselves on Robben Island, what is there on this island? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr XOBOLOLO : It is only found in this Transkeian Legislative Assembly that certain members feel it is right to place people on Robben Island and yet they do not sympathise with those people who have been banished there. (Interjections) It is a simple thing to say you are going to Robben Island. Mr H. PAMLA: Have you nothing to say? CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr XOBOLOLO : Many people have stated that they have been locked up under Proclamation R400 and after being locked up they are imprisoned without a charge being laid against them. When one has been locked up you find that the person who arrested you has no grounds whatsoever on which to charge you and the person who has been arrested is not asked to answer to any charge. The last speaker spoke about the disturbances in Pondoland where people were shot. When you relate those disturbances, do they compare with what happened at Sharpeville? Why is this proclamation not applied in those other places? In this House it should be noted that what happens here is that people just dispute whatsoever is said by the other side. I am glad to hear people telling me to sit down. The next speaker must not just repeat what you have all said. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am happy to speak to this motion and in my opinion I feel if ever there is a piece of law which has to be sustained in the Transkei it is Proclamation R400. I am going to motivate and give reasons why I say Proclamation R400 should be sustained in this area. I am happy to stand up after the hon. member for Engcobo has finished speaking because he has made mention of certain people who are on Robben Island but he has failed to give reasons why these people 263

they should work underground. It is this underground movement which has to be watched with a very vigilant eye. How many of the sons of Africa have crossed the border to other countries abroad to receive this training which has today become a threat to South Africa. Incidentally, some of them were with me in the ANC but there were two sections of the ANC. There was a section to which I belonged - the section which was converted by the ideas and ideals of the late Dr. Lembede; there was the section that was so indoctrinated in Communism. This is the section which is responsible for the upheavals in the Transkei. That is the section that was responsible for the Poqo murders in Emigrant Tembuland, because this element will never hold meetings in broad daylight. They always hold meetings at night or they will hold their meetings in the bushes right in the forest. Now, does it mean when we are so mindful of

resuscitation of their chieftainship was picked up from among the debris then this proclamation is worth its salt, because the aims and provisions of Proclamation R400 are there to protect chieftainship which is not wanted by communists and communist fellow-travellers .Today, we talk in the hope of gaining independence, and even these men who are dressed in sheepskins when in reality they are wolves want to be independent. The world knows my road in the political sphere. All you are are mere political opportunists who come here in order to feed your stomachs. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: You come here to feed yourselves because the money is available here. We have travelled a long way before we reached this present stage and we don't want anybody to come and tell us to deviate from the path we are following. If there is a better law to protect the chiefs in this country we would welcome that law. We say the day is dawning when we must reach our independence. This proclamation must therefore not be tampered with in any way. As we are now going out as propagandists of independence, educating people to our goal, if there are people who wish to deviate from our ideals this proclamation will come into operation. The hon. member, this political upstart from Engcobo what does he know about the struggles of the people in the past? With these few words I appeal to the hon. members not to upset the law and order which is at present prevailing in the Transkei. There is something which I particularly marked in Proclamation R400. For example, if the hon. Chief S. S. Majeke of Qumbu calls a certain counsellor to his Great Place and that counsellor does not turn up — like Xobololo. - if Xobololo fails to turn up he has committed an offence. I do not think the hon. member for Engcobo knows that provision in this proclamation. I don't know if his chiefs on that side are aware of the fact that if a counsellor disobeys the lawful order of a chief that is an offence. That is why some of these chiefs and subchiefs are put in disrepute. You find a commoner kicking a beaker of beer right in his face. It is because those chiefs do not know the provisions of this proclamation. How can we be against a law which protects the dignity and authority of the chiefs to whom we owe allegiance? Don't be mad? CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Please be sensible. CHAIRMAN: Withdraw that word. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I say they are feebleminded. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: He must withdraw, Mr Chairman. He has not withdrawn. Mr. KA-TSHUNGWA: I withdraw the word "mad". We are doing this to protect people like the hon. Chief Majeke. If we don't have these laws the people will put you into disrepute and they will end by by killing you. While I was speaking I was trying to point out the destructive influences brought about by the communists in our own organigzations. I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I support this motion. This is not the first time this sort of thing has been done in the world. The Persians even used this law. (Laughter) They took Daniel and convicted him under the regulations of such a law. In addition they took Shadrack and Abednego under the terms of a law like this. (Laughter) We well know those people who wish to reign by force will make such a law to effect their purpose. You will note that this very law, Proclamation R400, is not in

a subversive organisation we must expose our country to danger? It is all right and very nice for people like the last speaker to come and yap and yap in this Legislative Assembly, whose political activities in the past are unknown. We are here to see that this boat is steered by our Chief Minister must land the Transkei people on good ground. We people who have been attacked by the Poqo element in Emigrant Tembuland are not happy about these subversive organizations . We people whose relatives are rotting on Robben Island because of Communism are not happy. We people whose relatives like the late Chief Nkosana Mtirara who was killed because of subversive activities in Engcobo are not happy. Why must people of sane mind say this Proclamation R400 should be repealed? What do they want to do, or are they connected with the subversive organizations? These people are quite mindful of the fact that there are many sons of the Transkei who are amongst those people who call themselves "freedom fighters", and they are terrorists . I must say that if we are prepared to see that the Transkei is safe we must have this Pro clamation R400. There is something I am unable to understand. This law does not chase after anyone. What is it that perturbs the minds of these people in regard to this proclamation? Must we assume that they are fellowtravellers with the people who have subversive ideas? All we must concentrate on is that all these organizations which I have enumerated here did not want the policy which we are following. At one time the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei was labelled a "sellout" by members of certain organizations, and today the very people who were flinging mud at him are praising him as having emerged the greatest son of South Africa, because when he accepted the Bantu Authorities Act he knew - his eyes saw beyond the horizon and today you people are enjoying the fruits. He is a man who has emerged like a Moses leading the people of Israel out of Egypt. There is nothing I detest like a political upstart like the hon. member for Engcobo. I have never before seen political upstarts in this House. He never belonged to the AAC, the ANC Youth League, and today you have come to this House as though you are someone. I say this with very clear conscience - I was right in the liberation organizations and the point of difference was whether we should be ruled by these Whites who were in the Congress of Democrats when we well knew they were communists. (Interjections) He is asking me where was SASO. SASO was only born yesterday. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: You know better what the aims of SASO are. Mr Chairman, hon. members, one point I wish to drive home in this House to the paramount chiefs and chiefs who are ruling here - if the 264

existence anywhere else but here. This law is known as a "State of Emergency". (Interjections) It is called a state of emergency because it is used only temporarily. No-one can make a living under such an axe as this law. A proclamation of this nature is merely introduced because it is supposed to be a solution for something which was done long ago by our forefathers. Mr Smuts was asked by Professor Jones what is going to happen to this world, and Mr Smuts gave a reply and Professor Jones put his reply in writing. On that particular occasion Mr Smuts' aeroplane was struck by lightning. His reply was that when freedom is approaching such occurrences would take place. He said there is something which will come from the direction of Pondoland and that people from the South would cause an uprising. All these things happened when they were prophesied to happen. What we object to is that when you are given to rule people you fool them. Firstly you begin by making your own laws in order that you should arrest people who break them. This is a very bad law because when people want to cast their votes the chief will dictate to them for whom they should cast their votes. Also, people's kraals are demolished when they have committed no offence. This proclamation is only wanted and trusted by cowards because they want to force people to do what the people do not want, and yet it is stated that anything the people want should be decided by vote. When something has to be done by people it is usually requested that it should be done through voting, but instead of that this proclamation is introduced so that the people should do exactly what they don't intend to do. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, the speaker has a tendency to have a dialogue between the seated members and himself, as a result whereof whenever he speaks there is always a noise in this House. Please speak to the motion. Mr NKOSIYANE: I am dealing exactly with this matter. I still say that this law has a tendency to illtreat our people as it gives the chiefs authority to do anything the people do not want. How many of our people have been arrested because it is said that they had agreed to rehabilitation, whereas in truth they had not agreed. This is due to the fact that if a chief wants something to be done the chief does not want anybody to say anything against his decisions. Through this proclamation the chief is well aware that if he reports this matter then his statement will be believed and when people go to the authorities they will not be listened to. When the people say they don't want any fencing, yet they are told that they have to accept fencing because the chiefs say so. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we have been listening ad nauseam to the deliberate untruths which have been uttered by the hon. member for Mqanduli. There has never been anybody arrested under the rehabilitation scheme due to Proclamation R400. You can never substantiate that. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Is that a point of order? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Could the hon. member be called to the point? This is not a place for telling those untrue stories which are usually told at beer drinks. Mr NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am just sticking to the point and I am hitting at the sore points. If you saddle a horse which has a sore back the horse will buck. (Laughter) Things that are not good or correct should not be done. I told you about this rehabilitation scheme because people are being forced to do it. This proclamation which is in force is not good because people are like chickens fearing a hawk. Immediately

the chickens see a hawk they lie flat on the ground. Similarly this proclamation acts so on the people. I have already told this House that this is something which was applied formerly, but had no good results. Why should this continue when even in the Bible it has been stated as something bad. Similar Acts were passed even in the times of the Bible and people like Daniel found themselves in difficulty. It was exactly this proclamation which was appled in those days Proclamation R400. (Laughter) Even Jesus Christ was crucified because of this law. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will request the hon. member on the floor to desist now from making up these fabulous stories. We are dealing now with the abolition or repeal of Proclamation R400 which was promulgated in 1960. We have nothing to do with actions that took place prior to 1960 and Proclamation R400. Will the hon. member please be relevant and stick to the repeal of this proclamation. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, the hon. member is quoting from history. Interjections) MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Are you as foolish as he is? This foolishness is infectious across the floor. CHAIRMAN: I have asked the hon. member to carry on. Mr NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, even if you discuss any matter you must have reference to something which occurred in previous times. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are making no reference, you are making a statement. Mr NKOSIYANE : Even in the case of laws being introduced reference is made to previous laws. I am carrying on with the debate and just referring to what happened in the past. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order . . . Mr NKOSIYANE : This Proclamation R400 has been taken from some occurrence which took place previously. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, he has told us enough untruths already and we are not going to let him dispute the ruling of the Chairman. If the Chairman tells him to desist from what he is saying and he stands up and advises that he is in fact disputing the ruling of the Chairman ... Mr NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I have said in this very House that when a horse has a sore back and you place a saddle on it the horse bucks. (Laughter) In a country such as we have here, a country where there are no arms, such a regulation has never been passed. When such regulation is passed over people living in a country like ours it is quite clear that . . (Interjections) For example, if it is dark at night and a fire is lit the chickens will go to the light to see what it is. I compare this law to a car driving at night and a hare runs into the light and it is run down. As soon as the hare sees the light of the car it runs towards it because it believes that light is a candle. (Laughter) Tell me, before the introduction of this law and the people had not got these ideas, when this law was introduced did it not attract the people towards it because before the introduction of this law nobody interfered with the rights of other people? It is quite clear that something which is not wanted by the people has been introduced. Even if you have to train a horse, at first it will be broken in by boys who will ride it without a saddle, then when the horse is tamed the men will ride it. I have explained this proclamation and if you like you can tell me where else this proclamation is found, except here. This is what should be done with this law: When there are certain disturbances this law can then be applied, but as soon 265

political relevance of Proclamation R400. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I did. When those organizations were banned then there was this subversive movement. Mr MADIKIZELA: We are all of us interested in peace and order in the Transkei. We dislike subversion; we dislike sabotage; we dislike communism; but all these are provided for in one or other of the statutes promulgated in Cape Town. Indeed, nearly all the provisions of Proclamation R400 are to be found in one or other of the statutes from Cape Town. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I say no. Mr MADIKIZELA: As I have indicated, where the peace and the order of the Transkei is to be guarded we are there with the law. (Interjections) the hon, the Minister of Justice has indicated that he is going to repeal this proclamation but reimpose it in the form of a bill. That measure we welcome. It will be a bill that will pass through this House and which we shall criticize constructively. As it is, Proclamation R400 is merely an imposition. The hon. member for Cofimvaba says he does not want one jot, one title of this law repealed ... Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: That's right, we want more. Mr MADIKIZELA : ... and he gives the reason that this law interferes with no-one, but this law does interfere with all of us, particularly the elected members. We cannot address meetings without permits, yet we are none of us saboteurs - we are responsible people. We are acknowledged as such by the people who have returned us to this Chamber. They have full confidence in us. When we seek to address meetings it is not because we intend going in for agitation. In most cases it is to explain to the people the activities of this Chamber. Sometimes you meet a headman and he tells you : I am ready for you, I have a meeting arranged for you on such-and-such a date. You are bound to decline because you have got first to obtain a permit from the magistrate. Some of the magistrates demand as much as two weeks' notice for a permit, others demand as much as thirty days. (Interjections) It is not a matter of going into the magistrate's office and applying for a permit and coming out with one, and those magistrates are not trying to be difficult. They have other work to do in their offices. Now, while you wait for thirty days for a permit you are missing good chances. As I have indicated, you say you want to meet these people on such-and-such a day and he says he has a meeting the day before and invites you to address them. You are bound to say you cannot. Now, it is tiresome for anybody to call meeting after meeting when one should have served. We on this side of the House are not against the general principles of Proclamation R400, but there are certain aspects of it that are galling to us. In ten years I do not know if one hon. member of this House has been caught up in agitation in a meeting that he held an indication that members of this House are responsible people and interested in the welfare of the Transkei and in peace and order. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I trust that this matter has been thoroughly canvassed and I trust that the hon. chiefs on the Opposition benches understand their mistake when they said that this law must be repealed. I would like to understand whether the disturbances which brought about the introduction of this proclamation have ceased. Mr MADIKIZELA: They are continuing in spite of the proclamation. MR VAPI: These organizations known as Mbom-

as the disturbances are quelled this law should be done away with. I want you to realise that good and bad things happen in this world because they have been so created. You must not think that everything will follow the way you think, but these events will happen because they have been ordained by the Almighty. What I want to tell you is that this law is like a thornbush which you want people to go through, but the people cannot move freely because of the thorns. It is our desire that when we live in a free country we should entertain no fears of being arrested. We know that the Government has all the power and if anything happens which is not legal the Government can immediately apply its authority. Immediately the disturbances come to an end such regulations can be put aside because there will be disturbances as long as people suffer starvation. Mr W. Z. LUFUFENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to oppose this motion and will present a few points to the debate and also explain to members of this House that if this proclamation had not been in operation many of them would not have been in this House. Many of the members are enjoying the privilege of holding meetings in their constituencies because of this proclamation. The hon. Mr Nkosiyane mentioned in this House that there was a law passed in Mqanduli for the circumcision of boys. (Laughter) Mr NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, on a point of order ... CHAIRMAN : Just take your seat, please. Mr LUFUFENI: Now the hon. member is jittery because I have touched a sore spot. It is in the area where the hon. member comes from that there are disturbances. As there are secondary schools in his area there are times when these schools are closed and our children cannot have the benefit of lectures. He does not appreciate the fact that the reason why there is peace and order is because of the application of these provisions. Order is maintained by the police, but he will not appreciate that because he was once a soldier Mr Chairman, we must appreciate the fact that if this law was not in existence chieftainship would not exist today. Everybody knows of the disturbances which took place in 1960. If this proclamation had not been enacted in 1960, what would our position be today? Many chiefs were provided with bodyguards under this proclamation to save their lives and there are even some on the Opposition benches. One chief had his firearms confiscated by the police and he placed his case before the Government, stating that he was being threatened by his people. Thereafter this chief appealed to the Government for bodyguards to save his life. That same chief today is advocating the abolition of Proclamation R400. What is he relying on? That particular chief is on the Opposition benches and he is looking at me now. Mr Chairman, if we remove this proclamation we will not be able to get the independence to which we are aspiring. Another hon. member from Pondoland, Mr Diko, talked about subversive movements in Pondoland. If that subversion is present it is bound to penetrate throughout the Transkei and it will affect everyone. If we then repeal Proclamation R400 what will there be to protect us? I stand up to say that the provisions of Proclamation R400 must remain for as long as there is need. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the hon. member for Cofimvaba gave us a long history of the political struggle of our people. He made reference to some of the organizations which have since been banned, but he failed to show us the

266

bela ― do they not constitute disturbances? If this law was enacted during 1960 when people were dying, are they not dying today? Mr MADIKIZELA: That shows it is a useless law. Mr VAPI: This proclamation came into operation because there were illegal meetings held under cover of darkness. I would like to know whether those meetings have ceased. Have the Mbombelas stopped fighting with battle-axes? How does it happen that when we are looking towards independence the very weapon upon which we rely for our safety must be done away with? Is it not true that the communists and their fellowtravellers, while they realise that we are heading for independence, are now infiltrating our ranks ? If we now remove this measure which is for our protection, on what can we rely? Could the hon. members of the Opposition tell us the exact reasons why they have come to the conclusion that this measure must be repealed? I think their decision is premature. They ought to hasten slowly until we reach the stage of being independent so that we can eliminate these movements. The Mbombelas and the Bomvanas must put down their battle-axes. Even the communists who are amongst us now ― I don't know whether they are preparing the ground for their machinations. It is apparent that among them there are people who serve the interests of Communism, because if that communistic influence was not there they should not have raised this matter for the repeal of Proclamation R400. The hon. member for Mqanduli has suggested that if the provisions of Proclamation R400 are brought into operation to meet a certain situation, once that situation is controlled the law must be done away with. I put it to him that if we remove Proclamation R400 what will protect us as we are in these difficulties ? I would like the hon. member for Mqanduli to reply to that question. The debate was adjourned .

common to all other people. If you read the newspapers you will find that in all the countries of the world there are certain individuals who cause a certain amount of unrest. I was pleased to hear the hon. the Minister of Justice saying that Proclamation R400 is not of their making and he made a statement that this law would be repealed and another one introduced in this House. I say that is the correct procedure, because that would be a law passed by this House and not something we have inherited from elsewhere. As I have stated, we are the only people who are required to carry permits for anything and yet the other races in the same country are treated differently. Why should we be so discriminated against? We request the Government side to carefully consider this question and follow what has been stated by the hon. the Minister of Justice when he said he would introduce his own law through this House, and that law will be handled by us. One hon. member of this House mentioned certain leaders such as Dr. Xuma, Tambo, Mandela and others, and he said some of them are presently detained on Robben Island . Arising from that statement, I would put a question and ask him whether those leaders whom he respects would agree with the terms of this proclamation. When he spoke he said that most of these people are communists. I dispute the allegation that those people were sent to Robben Island because they are communists. What I know is that those men said things which could be followed even by the Government of the Republic. Because those people stated their case so clearly and it was not liked by those in authority it was decided that they should be locked up so that they could not voice their opinions. I have stated the truth here. My motion is quite clear and there are many people who are in support of it. I know most of the members on the ruling side are in complete agreement with this motion but they wish to please their party. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, I am not going to say much more except that this pernicious law should be repealed, even if for the very reason that the hon. the Minister of Justice said that he will introduce his

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the repeal of Proclamation R400 was resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, before we proceed I will ask the Whips to please collect the members, because the House is almost empty at the moment. I shall now call upon the mover of the motion to reply. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am the mover of this motion and I request this House to consider the advisability of repealing this proclamation. I have listened attentively to all the speakers in the House and none of them has convinced me that we should withdraw this motion. Most of the speakers have caused me to believe that this Proclamation R400 should be repealed. They made it clear that in spite of this proclamation the disturbances have never been cleared up. This proves that this is a law which has just been made with the sole purpose of interfering with the voting rights of the people. Other speakers seemed to regard this proclamation as merely a joke, and this grieves us because they are not speaking the truth although they are aware of the truth. This is what is most grievous to us : The black people are obliged to obtain permits, which requirement does not exist as far as the other races are concerned. Truly this law introduced on account of certain circumstances, but those circumstances no longer obtain. The uprisings which are said to be taking place at present are minor uprisings. They are common occurrences which take place in all the administrative areas, even before the proclamation was introduced. These little uprisings are

own law in place of this proclamation. We are pleased about his remarks. This is what I am submitting to the House and I request the whole House to agree unanimously that Proclamation R400 be repealed and removed from the statute books . Motion put and lost.

REVISION OF CONTRACT LABOUR SYSTEMS CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, with due respect I ask to be allowed to amend this motion by the deletion of the word "abolition" and the substitution therefor of the following :"revision of the laws and regulations governing the present system." The motion will therefore read:"That in the opinion of the Assembly the Transkei Government should make strong representations to the Republican Government for the revision of the laws and regulations governing the present system of contract labour.' CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to the amendment to the motion? Mr N. JAFTA : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MAJEKE : I move accordingly. Mr Chairman, this motion is self-explanatory and it is a most important motion, particularly as far as this House is concerned because it refers to the people of the Transkei and their working conditions as well as to the circumstances which prevent people from finding work. A lot of restrictions have been introduced in order 267

to stop the people obtaining work. The amended motion seeks to relieve people from the oppressive laws which prevent them from looking for work and it seeks to allow them to go out and look for work freely so that each workseeker should be able to sell his labour whereever he wishes. This motion seeks to give freedom to a black person who is obstructed from obtaining work, and it is only the black people who are affected by this contract system. This depression as far as the black people are concerned is caused by the simple fact that it requires the employer to come to the Transkei and pick those people whom he requires to go and work for him. When the employer comes he goes to the magistrate's office where he finds crowds of young boys looking for work. The employer then makes his choice. When it has been stated that there is a certain form of work which is going to be provided you will find that in all these towns the youth from all directions come on foot to try to obtain these jobs. They trek for long distances. What a piteous sight it is to see them returning to their homes because they have not been chosen to go to work. This motion seeks that a person should be allowed to go of his own accord to look for work. This is a onesided affair, this contract system, because it was devised to provide only for the employer. As these workseekers want work and they are picked out they have to sign certain documents, the terms of which are that the employee will find only work for that employer and no-one else. Even if that employee finds his working conditions to be adverse and he can obtain work with a neighbouring firm he will not be allowed to assume that job. Should the next employer offer a better wage that labourer is not allowed to accept the offer, otherwise he faces arrest and imprisonment. After he has finished his term of imprisonment he is repatriated to his home. What kind of country is that which gives such bad treatment to its citizens? What is wrong with us that we are subjected to such laws? What is wrong with our accepting better pay? What are the protective measures to safeguard the employee from illtreatment by the employer? What is the difference between him and a slave if he cannot obtain work where he desires? As I have stated, this contract system favours the employer. The employee goes on a six-months' contract and even if the work is unfinished at the end of that period he is forced to return to his home. These people who have been working for six months have to return home as soon as the contract

to find work. Those people who have their families and dependants to look after cannot make ends meet. How can people progress when only a few are able to get work and the majority are unemployed? There are certain laws which have been made for the sole purpose of creating things which even the Government dreads. Then you find that the Government is full of fear, just as with this law which has just been discussed in the Assembly. Our people are in a fix because when they meet to discuss their state of unemployment it may end in something which I personally know of and which has been referred to as the Mbombela in this House. Who knows whether the people who join this Mbombela organization are not in fact doing so because of their present state of being unable to get work? (Interjections) Our pepole are often placed in the difficult situation of falling victim to temptation. For instance, who will not be tempted to grow dagga when he cannot find work, in particular when a man offers himself for work but the application is turned down? When one is hardpressed to support his wife and family who will stop short of planting dagga in order to get money for it? I blame this Government ( I am not referring to the Transkeian Government because the Transkeian Government does not know anything) who are childish and have childish minds and therefore they will oppose this. (Interjections) What can be done to stop people from stealing others' property? At present we are harrassed by thieves and we enjoy no sleep because our livestock is being stolen. I know the cause of this situation, because our people are not given the opportunity to look for work. Why is the Government afraid of giving the people an opportunity to go of their own accord to look for work? It is because of such laws that there are these terrorists whom we all fear. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF MAJEKE : Most of these things that worry us come from that side of the House. It is for that reason they are trying to interfere with my address. Mr Chairman, the whole of South Africa belongs to us and the white people should desist from the habit of thinking that we should not go and obtain work at the labour centres because no work opportunities have been provided locally. There are no industries in the Transkei or other sources of work. It a is cruel method which has been emloyed of restricting people from going to look for work at the labour centres. That is oppression. Take a person who has gone under contract to a certain labour centre. When he took up this contract he was told how much he would be paid and that he would be provided with food as well as with accommodation. When he gets to the work centre he finds that the money he has to be paid is not the amount that was promised. Similarly, when it comes to accomodation and meals the conditions are very bad. The accommodation is suitable only for pigs. It is a piteous thing that the labourer has no right to cancel this contract in spite of all the bad conditions, and this leads the worker to desert after spending sleepless nights and he goes to find work elsewhere. When he deserts he will be searched for all over the show. The police will follow him right to his home and leave all other important matters in order to catch up with this person who has been dissatisfied and has deserted his job to look for other work. This is a sorrowful subject and it pleases me that the hon. the Chief Minister is present and can hear all we say. It pleases me more to know that he will meet the Prime Minister of the Republic because I know that between him and Mr Vorster certain agreements have been made, although

comes to an end and the employer has to get some other people to do the work. When the contract expires it is time for them to get increment but instead they have to return home and so the employer has to get new workers who have to start right from the beginning. Some people refer to this state of affairs as cheap labour, but I call it slavery. I can give no other explanation for it. The strength is sucked from these people and they do not get any reward for their labour. It must also be borne in mind that the black people of South Africa are not even permitted to voice their opinion lawfully. They cannot form trade unions as the white people do who, when they feel they wish to express their opinions, can do it through these organizations. On the other hand, if the black people wish to complain about their wages or working conditions they usually land in gaol. As a black person you cannot go out to look for work for fear of being arrested. The white people as well as the Coloured people in South Africa can go anywhere in South Africa from north to south, looking for work. Even those people who get work under the contract labour system are very few compared with the great numbers who are unable 268

before I wind up, quite a number of people have come back from the work centres - batches of people who were recruited into certain labour centres - having been told they would be allocated certain jobs at particular rates of pay and when they arrive at the labour centre it was just the reverse and these people had no alternative but to return home. In those circumstances we must support the mover of the motion, but if we had factories in the Transkei I would not be supporting it. Mr S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I support the motion because our people are experiencing great difficulties in so far as this system is concerned . There is plenty of work available but when people go under contract there is a law which prohibits them from obtaining such work. This is what comes between the employer and the employee. The employee is allowed to take a contract for twelve months and when this is over the law steps in and says they must return home even though the work is not finished. As a result of this law, when the employer has this work and the time has expired - mind, Mr Chairman, he has signed for twelve months whereas the job can only be done over a period of, say, five years - he has to return home and go back again to work, probably three times. Last year in June when I was in Cape Town there was a particular day when the cases of 300 people were heard. It became necessary to open a second court to deal with those cases. The report we received on that day was that the fines amounted to over R2 000. Mr Chairman, how can we say this has done any good for our people? Whilst we were still in Cape Town we received a complaint from a young man from the Baziya administrative area. CHAIRMAN : I will request the hon. members to desist from the habit of reading while the debate is on. This is not a reading-room. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I don't think you completed the sentence. You should have mentioned newspapers, because some of us are reading official papers. Mr XOBOLOLO : This man had been fired from his work and when he approached the magistrate's office to fix up his pass he found there had been a report from his master that he had deserted his employer. He made a request that if it was said he had deserted his employment he should be allowed to return to his job. This is one of the things which is causing a great deal of concern under this contract system. Many have returned from the labour centres wearing rags because their clothes have been destroyed by the dogs which were set upon him. Lastly, Mr Chairman, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to make these remarks. CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with this motion.

I will not mention them. I am pleased now because when they do meet to discuss things he will mention this motion. We know a lot but we will reserve ourselves, and we hope that when he meets the Prime Minister he will mention this. We want this system revised to suit the people. The motion states that our Government should go and request the Republican Government to revise this contract labour law. What we seek is that if a person goes under contract and finds he is not in agreement with the conditions existing there he should be allowed to cancel that contract and find other employment. I think I have said quite enough, Mr Chairman, but lastly I wish to remind this House that this motion has been introduced to this House a number of times and an argeement was arrived at that this system should be revised as I have today put to the House. The reason why we bring it forward again is because we have received no reply. I desire that when this House comes to a certain decision the Government should see to it that we do receive a satisfactory reply. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the motion that has been put forward to the House by the mover is to the effect that he Republican Government be requested in strong terms to revise the present contract system. In the first place the mover of the motion must be aware that the Transkeian Government is not responsible for the enactment of this contract system. I am very sorry that the mover of the motion has referred to very strong representations being made to the Republican Government for the repeal of the contract system. There is nothing so painful as when a man propounds something that is not of his own conviction. (Laughter) Speaking literally now, these bloodsuckers .. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I don't think the interpreter interpreted that correctly. The hon. mem. ber did not say "bloodsuckers", he means the Afrikaners. He used the Xhosa term for "Afrikaners." CHIEF ZULU : I am very sorry that when the white people have seen signs of co-operation from the black people that they want to work together with them then they show this type of behaviour. They always show signs of enmity. In supporting the motion by the mover I now endorse the fact that there is no reason why the Afrikaner people should not be told the truth. I always feel this way - that if a man does not like me I do not like to court his favours. There is one inescapable conclusion and that is that the white man looks upon us with spite and they consider us nothing less than tools of cheap labour. I had an idea I would not support this motion, but the facts have persuaded me to support it in so far as we have no factories, for instance, in the Transkei. If we had more industries we would not be supporting the motion by the mover because we would say we should give the white people a chance to show us what they are going to do. There is one fact we are sure of - that the black man is able to stand starvation much longer than a white person, and then we shall observe what they will do. Cities such as Johannesburg and Cape Town are thriving at the expense of the labour of the black man but in spite of that they have no respect for the man who supplies the labour. Let us take a practical situation, Mr Chairman. The vehicles in which these recruits are transported to the labour centres and the conditions to which they are subjected are not conducive to peace. Our people often return to their homes on account of the unbearable conditions under which they work, whereas they are giving their labour for the enrichment of the white people. To give an example

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MATANZIMA : No-one can tolerate the conditions under which this contract system is operating. I also think that the Republican Government should pay due heed to the sentiments expressed in this motion in order to maintain good relations between all the different national units in South Africa. As this particular enactment emanates from the Republican Government and the white people we must forward our requests to them and find out if they will listen to us. Mr Chairman, the operation of this law under the contract system leaves much to be desired when one observes what happens in the labour centres, particularly in the cities. It often happens that an Afrikaner 269

will move from a labour centre to recruit labour in the homelands. He explains certain conditions which are accepted by the recruits, but when they reach the work centre they find it is the reverse of what they had agreed upon. They are often told that their conditions of work will be such that they will work between certain hours, have lunch at a certain time, have tea at a certain time and knock off at a certain time, but when they get there they find that the conditions are not as explained to them. Apart from the treatment meted out to these people, which I would describe as worse than that meted out to a dog, the African would rather starve at his kraal than tolerate such appalling conditions. The position is that recruits are taken to the work centres, they are medically examined on arrival and some are found to be suffering from TB. They are then repatriated and immediately the employer shirks his responsibility of seeing to the medical treatment of the TB sufferers. The situation arises that when these people get to the centres of work and it is the employer who breaches some of the contract conditions, the employee decides that he must get home and he is the person who must now suffer the consequences as a deserter. I spent about five years in Cape Town and year in, year out I witnessed European employers breaching the terms of the contract, agreement, but I have never come across a case where the white employer was prosecuted . When an employee has a complaint against his employer because of certain conditions which have been breached he appeals to the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner's office, but there is already a message requesting the Bantu Affairs Commissioner to send this recruit back to his work. What these Afrikaner people do is, immediately you are dissatisfied with the nonfulfilment of the contract agreed upon, your case is discussed and decided upon on the telephone and by the time you get to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's office your case has already been decided . At one time I was one of the recruits joining a certain firm and I objected to certain conditions which had not been explained to us. Immediately, word was sent that I should be separated from the rest of the group because I showed signs of intelligence. I told them that as a person with a sense of balance I was not going to leave my fellow recruits and co-workers , but we should rather appeal to the law. There was a committee there which was supposed to settle complaints by employees and we were told to meet this committee on a certain day. A certain Mr Lombard was in charge and he told us to see him the next day. When we got there he told us what the results of our complaints were without our even having voiced our complaints. The enactment which was made by the Afrikaner people has no semblance of protection for the African employee in those labour centres. White people will not be ashamed to imprison an employee for six months merely because that employee said he was not willing to work overtime, which was not stipulated as compulsory. I say the law governing the contract system in so far as our African people are concerned is unacceptable. The white people, on account of the enforcement of the contract system, have gained the impression that we Africans can do nothing for ourselves. Flowing from their attitude we justifiably assume that the treatment they mete out to us presumes that we can do nothing for ourselves. It is a rather painful aspect with us as chiefs to find out that when a white man has breached some of the conditions of the contract and our men desert, the

police are set after him and he is recaptured in the homeland. Certain deductions are made, as far as I know up to about 5c. per employee. Those people are never told beforehand that such deductions would be made and they never get the benefit of those deductions when they are out of employment. The result is that when those people leave their places of employment and return to their homes they are issued with a green card and when a person wants to follow up exactly what is happening the employee is told the time is up and he is precluded from claiming his rights. The question we pose is this : As this money emanates from the results of your own labour, where does it finally end? Mr Chairman, the position under which the recruit ing of labour in South Africa is carried out is very lamentable. There are stories which, if related, would hardly be believable, which took place in those labour centres. What usually happens is that in our own area, for instance, certain employees are in a poultry farm and if one employee is picked out to get some milk, for example, merely because he objected to certain irregularities he is never seen again. We do not know where they end. An individual who was dressed as I am, but it was the only suit of clothes he owned, and merely because he had it on the clothesline and he had a blanket round him he was told to go and work, and he said he wanted to wait for his clothes to dry. He was locked up for six months on that account. When one considers the standard of accommodation provided at their places of employment it leaves very little hope for their health. At Langa, for instance, the Jabulani beerhalls are erected close to the residences of the people so that they spend all their earnings there. About 30 people will be accomodated under one roof and wooden slats are equated with beds. This creature of God is expected to get up at 7 a.m. and assume duties and he knocks off at 7 p.m. He is expected never to be sick although he has to sleep on wooden slats. Some of the employees from the Transkei are transported in almost unprotected trucks. They sit on wooden planks throughout and they are expected not to get sick when they finally get to Cape Town after two days. When one gets into the Western Cape and happens to have fallen victim to the conditions to which one is exposed, one is quickly repatriated. I don't know if the Transkei is a depot for all the sick people by reason of the fact that the white people have imposed such conditions. Mr Chairman, we require an improvement in the conditions of these workers. Even the period allowed them on the contract - namely, twelve months ― is far too short. There is a current attitude that one may as well leave the contract alone as go for twelve months, but in the meantime the people are starving. When you enter into a labour contract you are selling your labour, not your health. If you enter into a contract in the homelands and you are told you will earn R18 for a certain period, when you get to the centre of work you will be paid R12 and the man who breaches the conditions of the contract is not held responsible in law. It often happens that an agent for a number of subsidiary firms comes to recruit these people so that the labourer never knows with whom he has entered into a contract. When these men are recruited they get into the worst type of Coloured society. The foreman may be a Coloured so that the recruit is never in contact with the person for whom he contracted to work. For example, there is a man by the name of Mr Scheepers who recruits for a number of firms in the Western Cape and he is not 270

getic about their existence because they are now spineless. One of the reasons given for justifying contract labour is that it breaks the labourer when he gets to the urban areas, that the rural black worker finds himself in strange surroundings, knowing nobody, his chief is not there, the "induna" is not there, he must be protected by this contract. (Laughter) I ask the question: Are we going to be circumcized babies and bearded babies? Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: No! The answer is No! Mr GUZANA: How long before we are going to be allowed to rely on our own self-discipline to look after ourselves in the urban areas? These arguments I reject with the contempt they deserve, for they begin to suggest to the whole world that a black man cannot stand on his own feet if he is in some land unknown to him. Now, Sir, what amendments, what improvements do we require in this system? I think one of the basic rights which should be accorded the employee is that he should be able to reside out of contract if it turns out to be an irksome and onerous one. GOVT. MEMBERS: Yes! Mr GUZANA. This right to a limited degree gives the employee the opportunity to bargain for better conditions with his labour, and this will bring home to the employer that the employee is an indispensable part of his industry or factory or commercial undertaking, and therefore he will have a humane attitude towards his employees if he knows they can pull out of the contract if the contract becomes irksome. Flowing from that, the employer will know that the employee who has pulled out of the contract can offer his labour to some other employer without necessarily having to come back to the Transkei to be recruited. This will

responsible when complaints come up because he says he recruited for so many firms. With those reasons, Mr Chairman, I support the motion. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am indeed very happy that this motion was brought in for discussion today and the gratifying that the hon. members of the governfeature is this ing party have had a moment of emancipation. (Laughter) When for once in a while they are able to speak from the bottom of their stomachs (Laughter) it is indeed something to be grateful for. The motion seeks to have rules and regulations relating to the contract system of labour amended in order to do away with some of the irksome provisions that fall heavily on the labourer. Speaker after speaker has pointed out these hardships in strong language, indicating that not everything is right in the State of Denmark. Now, Sir, we have heard what the obvious disadvantages are, but we must also look at the other aspects of this contract system of labour because if a man with a wife and children can be sold for R1 for a period of twelve months then there is something radically wrong with a Government that condones that sort of business. For that period of twelve months the Government which received financial gain from this contract could not care less what happens to that labourer, and whilst we might place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Republican Government we must make this observation that evil begets evil. Any homeland government which condones the present system of labour is equally in the same boat in the sense that it receives financial gain out of the present set-up. (Interjections) Whenever we speak well of a son we say he is a chip off the old block, but if we have to explain the present situation in relation to the contract labour we can just say "Like father like son". The question of recruiting people to work raises the question as to why the Whites do not do the work for which Blacks are recruited . The claim has been made that more jobs or semiskilled jobs are made available to Blacks and the job which was held by one White employee has been split up into three smaller jobs, with the manual part being dropped by the white employee to be taken up by the black man, so that you get a white employee who becomes an overseer, the supervisor, just because the manual aspect of the work that he had has been divided up amongst three or four Blacks whilst he remains some sort of glorified intellectual supervisor. (Laughter) But what is the spiritual crucifixion which flows from this contract system of labour? The man who cannot earn a living except by putting his X mark at the bottom of a contract of labour is reduced to a state of mental helplessness and hopelessness. If he were a man who prided himself on his dignity, who had a sense of self-respect, he is compelled by circumstances beyond his control to swallow his pride and allow himself to be reduced into the position of humiliation which attaches to this contract, so that the individual becomes automatically subhuman because of this psychological depression which is repeated year in, year out throughout his living lifetime because he cannot choose his own place of employment. Is it any wonder that these men when they work in these labour squads look half sane, half mental, unable to react and almost insensitive even to the harshest treatment meted out to them. And these are the people you call citizens of the Transkei, the people who have been dehumanized by harsh and irksome legislative requirements . They crawl along almost bent over, apolo-

induce the employer to handle his employees with consideration, with respect. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: And with tender, loving care. Mr GUZANA : Then I would like to see that whenever there is disagreement between the employer and the employee, immediately the employer is obliged to write down the cause of grievance and the employee should be given a copy of that statement. If the employer should falsify the reason for the termination of the contract then there should be a criminal sanction falling on the employer. Then I would like the employee to be able to remain in the town of employment until his grievance has been resolved, and if after three weeks it is found that the employer had no right or reason to treat the employee in the fashion which was the subject of the complaint, then the employer must be obliged to pay the employee wages in respect of those three weeks. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Hear, hear. Mr GUZANA: Then I would like it to be obligatory on the employer that when the employee terminates his contract at the end of the contract he should take him to the Unemployment Office and have him registered as an employee out of employment, so that he should derive benefit from those contributions which were deducted from his wages. This will interrupt this prescription period of three months which is unknown to these employees and compel the Government to see to it that people who were employed and are not employed do get unemployment benefits. Then I would like a provision in these regulations to the effect that after completion of employment an employee is entitled to remain in that urban area for about two months , looking for alternative employment. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

271

Mr GUZANA: In other words, the entry of the worker into the urban area legalizes his presence there even if he is not in employment for about three months, during which he can pick up some other job. I would like also to see this Government appoint inspectors of labour to look at the conditions of these people in the factories and work centres and follow them up to see what actually happens to the human beings in these places of employment. If anybody argues that there are already government representatives, I think those are just glorified clerks who are in those urban areas. We want an official who could, without notice, reach the compound at 5 o'clock in the morning and see how these people are sleeping; reach it at 7 o'clock to see how they are able to prepare their food in the evenings ; see how many bugs are biting them in the night; (Laughter) see how many cockroaches they have got to share their room with. These are the things which really dehumanize a human being. How often have I been by train along the Garden Route and, looking across, you see people preparing their mealie-pap or porridge in a four-gallon drum in the open with the wind blowing the dust all round them. How are these people to remain healthy? There is need for us to be concerned about our people. It is not to show concern merely to say these are my people. They are your people because you have an interest in their welfare. The chief should not visit them to get largesse, but visit them to find out how they are living in these compounds. I mention that, Mr Chairman, because we are seeking change and our attitude must be a civilized one to our people. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 30th April 1974.

(iii) Why have some of these houses been standing vacant for months past?” REPLY : "(a) 1. Private medical practitioners have no rights in a Government Hospital, but they have certain privileges, e.g. (i) they may admit private paying patients to a hospital, provided always that beds are available; (ii) they may visit and treat their private patients in he hospital; and (iii) they may use all the hospital facilities i.e. X-ray department, theatre, laboratory. 2. If private medical practitioners utilise the services offered by a Government Hospital they are under an obligation to observe the Hospital rules and regulations laid down by the medical superintendent. Also if they are employed on part-time basis by the hospital they then are obliged to perform duties allocated to them by the Medical Superintendent of that hospital. (b) (i) All permanent medical officers are adequately housed in flats or dwelling houses. Those who wished to occupy the new houses were allowed to do so. Two doctors are now living in the new houses. (ii) Housing for White officials seconded to the Transkeian Government is the responsibility of the Bantu Trust. On behalf of the Bantu Trust, a committee consising of all of the Heads of Transkeian Government Departments decides on the utilisation and allocation of all available accommodation. That Committee decided that it was in the interests of the Transkeian Government as a whole to allow officials of departments other than the Department of Health to occupy some of the new houses in question. (iii) The vacant houses have been reserved for occupation by Medical Officers. It is obviously necessary to reserve accommodation for medical officers who may be appointed at any time to the numerous vacancies existing at Umtata Hospital. It was for this very reason i.e. that so many houses were standing vacant for such a long time, that the Housing Committee decided to allocate some of the houses to officers of other Departments ." QUESTION No. 19: Mr M. W. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: " (a) Will the Minister make a statement as to why cattle vaccinaions will take place in September this year instead of April, or thereabout, as is usually the case? (b) Is it the same vaccine as has been used before?" REPLY:

TUESDAY, 30th APRIL 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I have a medical certificate on my desk from the hon. Chief Nelson Sigcau who has been away from this Assembly for some days on account of ill-health. If I am not mistaken, I think I made a report to this House some time back, but this has been confirmed by a medical certificate. NOTICES OF BILLS MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on 1st May I intend to introduce a bill to amend the Transkeian Forest Act. QUESTIONS QUESTION No. 18: Mr K. Guzana asked the Minister of Health:

"(a) It has long been felt that April is a good month for stock sales, as the cattle are in very good condition. In the past however all stock sales were suspended during this period because of the vaccination programme. The change to September is thus an effort by the Department to help the stock owner sell his surplus stock before the winter while they are in good condition and he can get good prices for them. (b) Yes." Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, arising from the reply, people have been complaining in so far as the immunization of their stock is concerned. When will they be able to plough their lands if these inoculations take place during the period mentioned? Formerly,

"(a) What are the rights and privileges op private Medical Practitioners in the Government Hospitals and what are their obligations towards these Hospitals? (b) In view of the terrific and chronic shortage of Medical Officers and the constant change of the few Medical Officers : (i) Why do the more stable Medical Officers working in the Umtata Hospital for the Transkeian Department of Health not occupy the houses built on the grounds of the Umtata Hospital? (ii) Why are some of these houses allocated to personnel of other Departments ?

272

inoculation used to be done during May, giving time for the oxen to be used during ploughing season. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The intention of the department was not to interfere with the ploughing season. Its main aim was to assist those farmers who had surplus stock to sell and the time set for April and May was the best time when the cattle are in good condition. For that matter it does not take very long before the cattle can be used for ploughing purposes. All the same, they can still use their oxen then. Mr NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, we begin ploughing during the month of September. CHIEF MINISTER: Is this a debate now? You must put in a motion. CHAIRMAN : Hon, member, please resume your seat.

ence books. The fact of the matter is, of course, that they are not at all registered and will, therefore, not appear in the voters list. This Department has constantly stressed the necessity for Transkeians to register as voters not only through Magistrates, but also through the media of the press, radio and a campaign by the Department of Information. Whilst it is the intention to continue with these efforts I must point out that it is in the first instance the duty of the voter to ensure that he is in fact registered and that his name actually appears in the current voters roll. This can be done by checking the voters list which is available at any Magistrate's office. Honourable members of this House can, of course,

also play a most important role in assisting their constituents to ensure that their names do in fact appear on the voters list. "

QUESTION No. 20: Mr M. W. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "(a) Is there any effective remedy for Red Water Fever besides berenil? (b) As this remedy is now out of stock will the Minister advise a substitute which is as effective? (c) Does the Department stock any remedy or remedies to help people to fight this disease when it has attacked cattle? (d) If none why?" REPLY: "(a) and (b) Yes. Unfortunately the effective alternatives are also unavailable. (c) The Department does not stock any remedy in bulk. It keeps sufficient for use on Government owned animals and for treatment of animals seen by the State Veterinarians. (d) The remedies, when available, are stocked by all co-operatives, Trading Stores and Chemists, and normally will be easily available in the districts. It is not the function of the Department to stock remedies in bulk for retailing to the public." Mr G. G. KUTU: Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply, if this is not the duty of the Government - a matter which concerns stock over which you have made regulations ― who is the person to bear the responsibility for such stock? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I think it is well known that stock is the responsibility of the owner, and providing remedies for stock diseases is the obligation of the stockowner.

Mr ZIBI: Mr Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister, after the last election there were a great many people ―― about 200 - in Mount Fletcher who approached the magistrate's office and the magistrate satisfied himself by going through the registers and he could not find their names. What we want to know is why, if people have actually registered as voters, their names do not appear on the voters' lists. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I think in that case the magistrate should have gone further and informed the department of this. QUESTION No. 22: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education: "Is it not possible to increase the annual quota of Post Primary Teacher Trainees by setting aside the Cicira Training School for the exclusive training of such teachers only, in order to meet the increasing demand for teachers suitable to fill up posts in the envisaged new structure due to operate the on-coming year?" REPLY : "This is already being implemented." QUESTION No. 23: Mr R. S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "(a) Would the Hon. Minister report on the boreholes in Mbange Administrative Area, Ngqeleni? (b) Are these boreholes in working order? If not, how long have they not been in working condition? (c) What steps is the Department taking to place these boreholes in a working condition?" REPLY: "(a) Three boreholes exist in Mbange of which one is dry and the other two had a very poor yield at the time of drilling. (b) (i) A new handpump was erected on borehole T 31506 during July 1972. Since then some of the parts were removed by the residents in the area. Parts are on order and pump will be repaired on receipt thereof. (ii) The windmill on borehole T 31507B was out of order and on investigation by the contractor and consultants during March 1974 it was found that the borehole had dried up. (c) An investigation is now under way to find an alternative for the borehole T31507B which dried up. " QUESTION No. 24: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Health: "(a) In your effort to bring the medicine and treatment to the patient within walking distance of each and every citizen in the Transkei how many Tribal clinics and District clinics have already been built?

QUESTION No. 21 : Mr H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of the Interior: "(a) As the last General Election revealed that there were many Transkeian Citizens duly registered as voters but did not appear in the voters' lists what arrangements is the Department making to put right the said anomaly? (b) And what of those people who are not registered at all?" REPLY: "(a) and (b) My Department is not aware that there are many Transkeians who registered as voters without their names appearing on the voters list, if in fact the said averment is true. It has, however, come to my notice that many Transkeian who were registered as voters on the old Regional Authority area basis failed to reregister for inclusion in the current voters list for the Transkei. These persons are apparently under the mistaken impression that they are duly registered by virtue of such endorsement in their refer-

273

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr Chairman, the second reading will be on Thursday, 2nd May.

(b) How many clinics are foreseen in your final planning? (c) Where will these be located? (d) Can the administrative area be named please?" REPLY: "(a) The total number of authorised clinics is 113. Of these 64 are Tribal Authority clinics. There are 26 Departmental clinics and 23 Mission or Welfare Committee clinics. (b) At least one clinic for every Tribal Authority area; and there are 145 Tribal Authorities in the Transkei. (c) The sites for the clinics will be determined in consultation with Tribal Authority concerned. (d) Falls Away."

REVISION OF CONTRACT LABOUR SYSTEM The debate was resumed. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support this motion referring to the contract labour system for our people. In most cases these people are not employed here in the Transkei. They are recruited to work on the mines, on the farms, with building contractors in factories and in the Railways and Harbours Administration. Those are the people who have transformed the Republic and the Transkei to their present state. As long as we mention the progress made in the Transkei and elsewhere we have to associate that progress with these workers. Most of the people are recruited from the Transkei. Agents are found in different areas recruiting people to work in various places and various occupations . These agents usually go to the owners of the factories and state they can obtain labourers for them at a certain rate of pay and these people have to work at stipulated hours. They are collected and taken to the place of employment. Everyone goes individually to these agents. Some are still juveniles, barely 18 years of age, and they are persuaded to sign a contract which is going to be binding on them. In order to induce these young people to sign, the agents will make all sorts of glittering promises and our children agree to be recruited. From there they are usually taken to the magistrate who approves and makes them understand that this is legal. The chief and parent are usually not there. The chief and parent are usually left at home. It becomes obvious that this young man or boy has virtually been sold to these employers by the agent. As they travel to the labour centre you will find the transport is very poor indeed. As soon as he arrives at the centre he is immediately provided with tools and often this young man is not even instructed adequately in his work. As they begin working, the very same day this young man is expected to perform his duties as though he has been working there for a long time. They always make sure that the man who looks after them is a complete stranger to them, particularly in Natal where you find that the work overseers are Indians. This is done deliberately and in order that this young man should be confused. If he is unable to perform his duties properly he is immediately thrashed like a beast. If he can tolerate these thrashings he gradually learns to do what is required of him. When he leaves home he is branded by a certain mark - by that I mean his reference book. If he deserts his place of employment the reference book will immediately show that he has deserted from such-and-such a place. It will be construed that he has broken a contract which he did not understand. He will immediately be thrown into goal for about three months and taken back to the place from which he deserted. It becomes necessary that he must complete his contract. Some are healthy and strong enough to do the work but they don't want to be pushed around. Such a man may then turn round and assault his overseer. Instead of charging him with assault they dismiss him from work. Usually the period of the contract on the sugar estates is six months. They always make sure that this man is dismissed after the completion of the contract of six months. The reason is that the transport he used in coming to this place is recorded, as well as his rations and quarters. They then deduct all the money they think is due to

QUESTION No. 25: Mr H. Pamla asked the Chief Minister : "What are the duties, rights and privileges of the elected members of the Legislative Assembly in relation to the following :(a) Assistance of work seekers who fail to procure any labour contracts due to either the negligence or reluctance of the officer in charge of such services? (b) An unsatisfactory decision by the tribal or regional authorities with regard to a trading licence etc., etc? REPLY: "This question should please be directed to the Honourable the Minister of the Interior who is responsible for labour and trading matters." QUESTION No. 26: Mr H. Pamla asked the Chief Minister: "Is there any good, genuine reason why the elected members of the Legislative Assembly do not automatically become members of the regional authority after election? REPLY : "The constitution of Regional Authorities is determined by section 10 of the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965 which does not provide for such automatic membersrip. I wish to point out further that in terms of this Act the registered voters are given the opportunity of electing their representatives on tribal authorities. These representatives then elect one of their number to represent the area in the regional authority. " QUESTION No. 27: Mr H. Pamla asked the Chief Minister: "Is there any general circular minute which informs the district magistrates of the duties, rights and privileges of the elected members of the Transkei Legislative Assembly?" REPLY : "No circular minute was issued." MARKETING BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am pleased to announce that the Xhosa copies of the bill are now ready and will be distributed accordingly to the members. I now, therefore, move the third reading of the Transkei Marketing Bill. MINISTER OF HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. MOTOR CARRIER TRANSPORTATION AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill to amend the Transkeian Motor Carrier Transportation Act 1972 and I move that it be read a first time.

274

them and then discharge the man. The Republican Government has seen to it that these employers are well protected so that they never lose a single worker. This man is now discharged and if he goes to another place to look for work the new employer looks for the stamp in his reference book. As soon as the stamp is discovered in his reference book he is immediately told to go back to where he was working or to go back to the Transkei. This means that since the man has lost his contract he cannot find other work anywhere. Immediately he leaves the gates of his employment he meets a policeman who demands his reference book. Then he is marched straight to prison and from this reference book they can read all his sins and omissions. From there they return him home. I am talking about the contract system, which forces a man to go and look for work because of the difficulties at home. Even those who succeed in working the full contract of six months, the difficulties which caused him to look for employment are not half met. It becomes apparent that this Government must compel this man to sign a contract again and look for work once more. I am now referring to the people who are the reason for the prosperity of the Republic, people who could be of use at home and elevate the standard of their homes and the standard of living in our country. Some go to work on the mines and the usual procedure is followed. He is given clothes and tools and sent to work underground for the first time in his life. The work underground is pretty severe and there people are thrashed. Those who are weak are thrashed until they become physically incapacitated. Nevertheless, as time goes on they acclimatize themselves. Some feel they cannot endure this type of treatment, particularly those who are strong enough and are able to fight. He thrashes a white man underground as well as an African. They usually ask that one how he thinks he should be treated, and he says he would like to be an overseer over these people. They immediately agree to that. This simply means that this man has a heart of stone and can only go on working because he has conquered. Even then there is nothing pleasant. His money is constantly deducted, at least for the first four months. That is the position as far as mine work is concerned. Even in the building industry the position is not very glamorous. There are big farms where a man is required to work for the rest of his life. Those are farm tenants and they are hardly ever paid in cash. They are told they will be paid in kind and this is what will be given to him. If he is working on a farm he will be given a beast and this will multiply. CHAIRMAN: Is that under the contract system? Mr MADIKIZELA: If I am amiss, Mr Chairman, please put me right. CHAIRMAN: This motion deals with the contract system .

contract it is, but there should be money on one side and labour on the other. Those contract workers remain there for a long time under their contracts. Some stay so long they have families, keep livestock, plough the lands and as the children come to maturity they discern the kind of labour this is and they get away from the farm . CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, I will read the motion to you so that you will understand. (Read motion) This is not individual contracts. Mr MADIKIZELA: I see no difference here. From he first regulation of the contract to the last one, they are all bad as far as I am concerned . I am talking about the regulations specifically referring to our people, the black people. These regulations go hand in hand with this contract. These regulations also empower the employers to transport these people elswhere where they are going to be given work. This country has its own specific laws. When a white man is looking for employment there are provisions which allow you to find work. Those provisions must equally apply to black people. There are no agents for white workers. Our black people are not protected and there are no laws to protect them from agents. No people have been employed to go about in the administrative areas explaining these regulations of the service contracts to our people. This simply means oppression. If we are inhabitants of this country we must be treated accordingly. We are oppressed. If you oppress a human being you must of necessity stand there for all time. It simply means that our oppressors have so degenerated that they are even below us in morals. This oppression does not mean we are wicked. It simply means that the oppressor has a type of heart I am unable to describe. His tendency is to create poverty for others and to enrich himself. It prevents these people from appealing to anyone even if they are illtreated. Is this parliament not a civilised one? Where are the sons of these people? Are they not working on the mines? That is why I plead that we must hasten to make preparations and meet those people halfway. We must see to it that our country is elevated. The reason why these people leave the Transkei is because of starvation. Why is it that this contract between the employer and the employee benefits only one man - the employer? What advantage do we get from that? The people who leave the Transkei and go out to work are unable to help our country to enrich itself because the wages they get are so low that the people cannot even pay income tax. A good contract would be one which would give employer and employee equal benefits. CHAIRMAN : I think this motion has been sufficiently canvassed by this House and the House seems to be unanimous on the request. I will therefore ask the mover to sum up. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I am happy that this motion is receiving the full support of this House. The call for the revision of the laws and regulations governing the present system of contract labour is urgently needed. I hope the Transkeian Government will take up the revision of this harsh and oppressive law strongly with the Republican Government. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Motion put and unanimously agreed to. ABOLITION OF BEERHALLS IN TRANSKEI

Mr MADIKIZELA: The man working on the farm went there on contract. However, I will withdraw. Coming to the wages these people get, the wages are so low because part of his wages have been deducted for the labour agent. Mr Chairman, I believe I am stil in order. CHAIRMAN : It is the contract system we are dealing with. The motion says it should be revised. Mr MADIKIZELA: Yes, I am coming to that. It would be difficult for us to ask the authorities to repeal this system without explaining the difficulties of the people. The fact that the people are treated like slaves is the reason for this motion being put forward. The contract does nothing for the employee but only favours the employer. It does not make any difference what

Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move accordingly: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should request the XDC to abolish all beerhalls in the Transkei." At this juncture I find myself in some difficulty because I realise that the XDC is not the Transkei Gov275

ernment, but as I know the responsible body is the XDC it will be assumed that I am making reference to the XDC. These beerhalls which we have are a source of trouble. Firstly, these beerhalls have given no assistance whatsoever to the people because we have always had the ordinary Kaffir beer. With the creation of these beerhalls the people have become what I may term “abpeople who leave their homes and spend sconders" all day in these beerhalls. I have realised that money is being made through these beerhalls but the damage that is done there is greater. Anyone who has knowledge of human nature will agree that the drinking at these beerhalls has a damaging effect on the morals of the people. You will find that murders only take place in these beerhalls. People are killed indiscriminately, assaults are committed there and that is where all the undesirables gather, such as thieves who plan what they are going to do. That is where people from time to time meet with accidents. You will find women and girls in a sad condition where formerly they were regarded as the flower of the country, but now they come under the influence of intoxicants. Laziness is encouraged there because people are tempted to remain for the whole day in these beerhalls. For that reason you will find that many of the wives lose their husbands. Without any doubt this causes us, the onlookers, to realise that it is most dangerous.

people who are being endangered. I accordingly move. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : I second the motion. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as I sat here I watched the members of the Opposition going out one by one and I assumed that they wanted to get some Jabulani before the place is closed. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I stand up to move an amendment to the motion by deleting all the words after the word "should" and by substituting therefor the following words:"investigate the effects of beerhalls on the moral life of the Transkei people." Hon. members, I have since 1964 had to listen to the hon, member for Qumbu moving motions in this House but I have never seen him in such difficulties as he was when he was moving this motion. The only conclusion I can come to is that he was, as we usually say, short of facts and fads. The amendment seeks to provide this House at some future date with facts as to whether or not Jabulani should be done away with. At the present moment all that we hear and have are mere matters of conjecture. You see a man moving or swaying from one side to another in the street and it is said Jabulani is responsible. The question is : If you see a man under the influence of liquor, whatever it may be, how do you distinguish that this is the result of having taken Jabulani or whether it is because of "mpalampala❞ or beer or brandy? The mover of this motion I presume happens to be one of the lay preachers in some church. Now, we have various denominations ― we have the

You will find that the general life of the people is at stake, because the Almighty bestowed some blessings on the people and one of the blessings is that a man lives a happy life with his wife. When a man is under the influence of this liquor you will find that these blessings have no meaning. When you are in this condition you lose all your natural powers. (Laughter) Even if you laugh and heckle, you know very well what I mean. In our administrative area in Qumbu district, close to the village more than ten people have met with death in these beerhalls. In our district the Manyano women and the Guild have made representations to the magistrate that the beerhall should be closed down in order to relieve them from these conditions. I expected there would be some people in this House who would ask how many people there are who bear me out. I know also that the majority of people like the idea of beerhalls. That may be so, but the people who are leaders should be able to see what is good for the people. I know that there are certain individuals who have now become slaves to this Jabulani . You will also note that it is cheap to buy Jabulani and even the poorest person is able to buy it. I have seen young men leaving their homes to look for work in the village. As they reach the village they become thirsty and go to the beerhall for a drink. They remain there imbibing Jabulani and quite forgetting they have gone to look for work. It should also be noted that this drink has an effect upon the senses of a person, so much so that one who drinks it loses control of his thoughts. Not only that, but he remains in that state. What I have stated is quite clear to anybody and it is therefore not necessary for me to go into further detail. What we require is the removal of Jabulani and these beerhalls. I appeal to this House that we should be unanimous in respect of this motion so that these beerhalls are done away with. I hear a remark next to me, asking why I do not say anything about European liquor. I see the evil in European liquor but comparing it with Jabulani you will find that if a poor man has only 10c he is prepared to part with it in order to obtain abulani. (Interjections) I will reply to your remark. When we talk we usually look at the majority of the people. If this question of Jabulani is ignored then it is the majority of the

Methodist, Anglican, Roman Catholic, the Sigxabayi and many others. We know that the Methodist Church is against the taking by its members of intoxicating liquor, but we also know that the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church are not so strict on its members as far as liquor is concerned . Now, these different churches are to be found in the different regions and localities of the Transkei. Now, must it only be Jabulani which must suffer? What about brandy? I know most of the members are against Jabulani because they don't partake of Jabulani; they are against Jabulani because they prefer "mpalampala” which is the cheapest type of European liquor. Now Jabulani was preferred because it is one of the most highly hygienic beverages. Why didn't the hon. member say Kaffir beer as well as Jabulani should be done away with, because Kaffir beer also has intoxicating elements in it? Kaffir Now, he prefers Kaffir beer to Jabulani beer, the most unhygienic beverage you could ever have. I would like you to watch some of those woman brewing Kaffir beer. They dip their arms into the barrels as far as the armpits (Laughter) and stir away, and these barrels are usually put in the upper part of the hut where there are flies, moths and sometimes it is not unusual that some mice die and drop into the barrel. (Laughter) Sometimes when this old lady is stirring away, stirring away, she starts having a runny nose and she .. goes on stirring. Sometimes as stirs away she starts perspiring (Laughter) hence it was decideed to brew a type of Bantu or African beer which is similar to the traditional one, and that is Jabulani which is brewed under highly hygienic conditions. Now, what I cannot understand is that when people cannot have enough self-control in the use of Jabulani the whole blame should be put on Jabulani. The hon. member has said Jabulani is so cheap that one can get Jabulani even if one only has 10c. Well, if a person has only got 10c., whoever got drunk because he drank Jabulani worth only 10c? The trouble with these people who get drunk is not because they buy Jabulani for 276

Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion which has been piloted by the hon. member of Qumbu in connexion with Jabulani. Many people will be surprised that objections should be raised against Jabulani, although Jabulani is a liquor that is much used by some of the people, but people approached us and told us that Jabulani endangers the lives of the people. The trouble with Jabulani is that it is a very cheap liquor and as a result many people become drunk. Jabulani is brewed somewhere by someone and that person, together with his white overseer, does not care about the people. It is customary that anybody who brews liquor should give some of that liquor to a chief. (Interjections) I personally detest Jabulani because the people do not want it. I want to reply to the hon. the Minister of Justice when he made remarks in connexion with Kaffir beer. You will note that doctors have recommended the drinking of Kaffir beer. (Interjections) I want to impress it on this House that whenever Kaffir beer is made it is not a person's hand and arm that is used to stir it. There is no better-prepared liquor than Kaffir beer which, in fact, has been blessed. (Laughter) Though Jabulani is at present being used, if someone has to perform a customary ceremony, Jabulani can never be used. Only Kaffir beer can be used in those ceremonies. I object to anyone who says anything about Kaffir beer. (Interjections) This Jabulani is an innovation. I am going to tabulate the reason why people say they do not like Jabulani. The month before last a child died at Ngebulani because this child was killed by people who had drunk Jabulani. A certain person who was killed by people in a Jabulani beerhall was the son of Majola and he was killed by a woman. This man was the only son of Majola. I cannot mention all the names of the people who have been killed as a direct result of Jabulani, as I have to go all over the country. In my district of Mqanduli there is the Holomisa Secondary School and the people of that area approached me and asked me to see that Jabulani must be abolished in that area. (Interjections) I therefore have a great mandate from the people of that area that they don't want Jabulani. There are many cases of bad things that happen through Jabulani. For instance, a woman collects money from the post office and instead of taking it home that money is used in the consumption of Jabulani. The moneey made in these beerhalls is of no use to anyone in South Africa because it is handed over to the XDC officer. The XDC should have granted this money for school purposes. I then come to the conclusion that Jabulani is of no help whatsoever. The amount of drunkenness as a result of the introduction of Jabulani is incomparable . Just last week in the bus there was a woman who had a baby and she dropped the child. When I asked her why she did this she said she had had a drink of Jabulani. I then directed other women who were in the bus to look after the baby because the mother was drunk. I cannot enumerate the great crowd of such people. It is not only one woman in Mqanduli who killed a child. One other woman who came from a visit to the beerhall killed her child when she got home. I know why some people speak on behalf of Jabulani. It is because Jabulani is the child of the XDC and therefore the Government will support anything that is XDC. They are not aware of the fact that this institution is a shark and they do not know where the money is taken to. (Interjections)

10c. , but much more money which becomes the equivalent of the amount paid for brandy, wine or spirits, so the argument that Jabulani is cheaper than the other beverages does not hold water at all. In any event, are we in this House going to legislate or do away with something which is loved and liked by the elecorate? If people do not like Jabulani why do they go and drink it? It merely shows that they like it. I have gone down here to the Jabulani hall here and I have found scores and scores of people drinking it. I have passed through Idutywa and I have found scores and scores of people drinking it. Now, have these people asked you to come here and say Jabulani must be done away with? I am not talking about those scarlet-bloused women who are saying that because of their own convictions about intoxicating liquor. I have no right, because I don't drink brandy or liquor or Jabulani, to say other people should not do so. I will advise my hon. friend from Qumbu to go to the tribal authorities and move a motion there that Jabulani be done away with. Then if the tribal authorities propose, or the regional authorities were to approach the Government and say Jabulani should be done away with the Government will have no alternative but to do so, but because you happen to be a lay preacher in some church you fail to go and preach to the people to stop drinking Jabulani you come here through the back door to say we must stop people drinking Jabulani. (Laughter) My other advice is : Go to the people and preach to the people to stop drinking Jabulani. You know there is the IOTT - Independent Order of True Templars. They preached long ago that people should not drink intoxicating liquor but the drinkers have grown by leaps and bounds, and instead the IOTT is dying a natural death. Now, I do not think that we can do anything about the matter. We are all living in an era of the permissive society and permissiveness is not only to be found amongst the educated and literate people, it is also to be found among the red-blanketed people in their own way. As a result of the permissive society in which we live there is more drunkenness today amongst the youth, both male and female, and are we going to say a pleasure which is age-old should be done away with just because today you find men and women, boys and girls drunk? It is the same even with those people who take Jabulani we are not going to say Jabulani should be done away with simply because it causes males and females to be drunk. That is why this amendment seeks that this House must be convinced as to what effects Jabulani has on the morals of the Transkei people, and I would even go further to say that even brandy, beers and "mpalampala" should also be included in this investigation. I do not know why, because brandy, beer and "mpalampala" happen to be European liquor, it should be taken as something good. The worst part of it is that these people who get drunk as a result of drinking Jabulani mix "mpalampala" and brandy. I move the amendment accordingly. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, it is unfortunate that we have to proceed with the discussion with so few members in the House. We have just made a bare quorum. In any event, we shall continue. The debate on the abolition of beerhalls in the Transkei was resumed.

277

A person who collects money from the poor people, just as Jabulani does, should give such money for the education of poor people, especially as this money is collected mainly from the poorer classes so that those ignorant people who give away their money at the beerhalls should have some benefit from their contributions. You remember how the Coloured people were destroyed. Wine was introduced and sold to the Coloured people and so they were destroyed. This Jabulani is introduced to kill our people. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE: It is for that reason that I support the motion. Before this Jabulani was introduced not one person had died in Mqanduli village. (Interjections) The people I am talking about have not been killed with battle-axes, but knives were used. I say Jabulani has a nice taste to those people who drink it, but mark this, the results are very bad. I should tell you that I go along with people and when they drink Jabulani and ask me to have a sip I do so. (Laughter) Even now when I get to a place where Jabulani is being drunk and I am offered a drink I will have one and take money out of my pocket and buy it because there people there. I never go to a place where there are no people and drink Jabulani. I want to impress this on the members of the House, that as the Coloureds were destroyed by the introduction of wine by the Whites, so the black people today are going to be destroyed by the introduction of Jabulani. There is something which is most objectionable the drinking and the state of drunkenness in a woman. Immediately we become drunkards you must realise that the nationhood of such people is doomed. I say to you that Jabulani is no use whatsoever because even women drink and become drunk. Many people are living separately from their wives on account of that Jabulani. People in the village of Mqanduli live in fear because immediately those people who have been drinking in a beerhall pose a danger to the people the moment they leave the beerhall. I am always conscious of the danger when I go to the village in the evening and I see to it that I don't go near the beerhall. (Interjections) In those places where Jabulani is served no boys go in with battle-axes. You never even see boys fighting near a Jabulani beerhall. The people who fight are the people who get drunk and then they start a fight and stab one another. The reason why we speak so strongly against Jabulani is because lives have been lost. If you could see the amount of blood that has been spilt in Mqanduli it would be enough to make you shed tears. I have now spoken and I shall resume my seat. I have given reasons why Jabulani is not wanted. It is something that is of no help to anyone, but it causes loss of life. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up in support of the amendment to the motion. The hon. members, in the majority of cases, understand that Jabulani is much better than the customary Bantu beer. Jabulani has some nutritive value, and certainly the processing of Jabulani is done not by human hands but by machinery. It is inspected regularly. You will find that our people are greatly assisted when they visit the cities because while they are waiting for their buses they will go and have a drink of Jabulani in the meantime. You will find there are many people who partake of this beverage. There are clerks , teachers and chiefs who partake of Jabulani . CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I wish to draw the tttention of the House to rule 33 of the standing rules of this House. Members have been persistently break-

ing regulation 33(c) which prohibits any member from intervening between the speaker and the Chair. No hon. member is allowed to pass between the Chair and the speaker. From now on I will take stricter measures against the contravention of this rule. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI: Mr Chairman, I shall discuss this question of Jabulani. I think the hon. Mr Jafta who moved this motion does sell Jabulani and he derives some form of income from this sale. Does that imply that the shopkeepers must lose now, because they also sell Jabulani? I heard a remark from one of the clerks when a truck transporting Jabulani arrived very late. The remark was to the effect that the truck had come as a saving factor. The hon. member for Mqanduli has admitted that he does partake of Jabulani. He also admits that he buys Jabulani for people to drink. Even at 1 o'clock he visited the place where Jabulani is sold. I cannot see why he opposes something which he also partakes of. Mr NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, the hon. member must withdraw the statement that at 1 o'clock I was at the beerhall. CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, can you prove that he was at the beerhall at 1 o'clock? CHIEF MKWENKWEZI: We were going together, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) I therefore do not see any reason, Mr Chairman, why any member should object to the sale of Jabulani. In supporting this amendment I stress the point as to investigations being instituted as to whether it is solely Jabulani that demoralizes the characters of people. What is the comment about the other types of liquor that are sold at the Transkei Hotel? Are there no casualties or undesirable incidents that occur as a result of that? What the hon. member should suggest is that these centres where Jabulani is sold must be hygienically controlled and that peace and order must be maintained . People who are patronizing those places are of different stages of civililation and hygienic conditions must be enforced. A police officer should be there to keep order and to avoid all those incident. The reason why they suggest that Jabulani should be done away with its because there is no government official to see to the maintenance of order. We would welcome a step by the XDC towards the sale of some of these beerhalls to the people. I am certain that if the control of these beerhalls was vested in the people the hon. member for Mqanduli would not have said what he said in this House. It is because the control of the beerhalls is under the XDC and they do not work hand in hand with the XDC. Mr Chairman, I stress lastly that there must be a thorough investigation as to whether these evils which they complain of emanate from the sale of Jabulani or from other types of liquor. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, we have been discussing this question of Jabulani for a long time now. In fact, liquor has been drunk for a very long time, but when Jabulani was introduced there was a difference. Jabulani is put into plastic tanks and it is never put into a tin can because if it is put into a can the tin will rust. If Jabulani can corrode a tin, how much more damage will be caused to a person who drinks Jabulani? If you go into those beerhalls you will hear very bad insults going on. To prove I do not want Jabulani , in Tsolo district we abolished it and where there were beerhalls you will now find grass growing. If a person has had a good drink of Jabulani you will find in the morning that that person has wet himself. With other types of liquor such a condition does not exist. I remember a certain occasion in a beerhall when a woman

278

came out of that place and lifted her dress right above her head. (Laughter) Those are the reasons why we move this motion for the abolition of Jabulani. To prove that this is not good liquor, what happened in Tsolo? A certain woman took her child to a doctor and when she left the surgery she decided to go and drink some Jabulani. There was no food in the beerhall so this woman kept on giving her sick child Jabulani. In that beerhall they kept on dancing and they danced and when she left the beerhall she forgot her dress and went out in her petticoats . When she arrived at her kraal she was asked where the baby was. It was only then she remembered she had left the child under a shawl. Some people found it and took the child to the charge office where that woman eventually found her child. As far as the original Kaffir beer is concerned, no such incidents take place. You can say that steps should be taken to see that this beer is not placed in dirty places, but everything has to be done in a certain manner. If you go to

Hotel and I found people in a ditch there throttling each other. Is there Jabulani in that hotel? Our concern should really be directed towards the moulding of the characters of our own people. Why is it that we are still adhering to the drinking of these concoctions? Why is it we do not pass legislation in order to stop a certain concoction which is distilled from cane? Even with our traditional Bantu beer the ingredients are different today. One finds it is brewed according to the traditional methods but once it has been imbibed the results are otherwise. The hon. the Minister of Justice mentioned that the conditions under which our traditional beer is brewed leaves much to be desired. A person will stir with an unclean arm , but something which my chief has omitted to mention is the fact that at the porridge stage the porridge is spread on the mud floors. Now when this porridge is collected it is taken together with some soil from the mud floor. (Laughter) Now, where are the hygienic conditions in such circumstances? Mr Chairman, I think our minds must be directed towards rescuing our people who have lost their sense of respect and character. I am somewhat apprehensive because some of you may not receive votes to be returned into this House when you say something which the people love must be done away with. This particular beverage is a favourite with high-ranking people and these people with character do not behave in the same manner as those who have lost their self-respect. If we advocate the abolition of Jabulani we might just as well start with brandy, through to the wines, and even the half-jacks. While we have been talking of Jabulani all the time, at a certain spot in the municipal location there was a man at whose side was a bottle of brandy and he was dead drunk. One is unable to say whether this man was drunk from Jabulani before he started drinking brandy. An hon. member mentioned that in the process of manufacturing brandy naked people dripping with sweat tramp the grapes to extract the juice. As a man who has been travelling to aid the sale of these products I have seen the processing of liquor right from the grape stage. Mr Chairman, I think we should just stop this thing instead of engaging in a fruitless debate like this. We shall continue talking until some of us do not know the beginning from the end. Some people do not know the processes which are engaged in in the production of the final product. They merely buy the finished product. Even those who take brandy cannot tell you the different stages in processing that brandy. With those few words, I support the amendment. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as leaders of the nation we ought to examine carefully the question placed before us. Jabulani, like all intoxi cating liquor, is not a good thing. (Help me, please, Mr Chairman, and stop these chiefs who are interfering.) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr ZIBI: I want to say that Jabulani is placed in the category as all illegal liquors. There are some known as "shimiyane" or "skokiaan", but our trouble is that Jabulani has been introduced into the Transkei by the XDC which is supposed to improve the economic conditions in the Transkei. The problem is that Jabulani is supposed to assist improving the economy of the Transkei, yet the results are disastrous. The hon. members who want to equate Jabulani with ordinary Kaffir beer are not being sincere. Kaffir beer is brewed from grain and Kaffircorn and it is very nutritious. Jabulani is brewed by certain municipalities , the people buy the brew and these municipalities accumu-

places where brandy is brewed you will find people dancing over the grapes and they dance until the perspiration drops from them. In all these things which I have stated I am trying to tell this House how all liquor is made. Even if you compare the people who drink these different types of liquor you will find that the person who drinks Jabulani exceeds all those who drink other types of liquor. In saying so I desire that the mover of this amendment should withdraw it. I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr A. MFEBE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, there are some topics we take very lightly, whereas they have some important aspects to be delved into. First of all, I stand up to associate myself with the amendment. From the outset I want to say that generally no good is derived from any intoxicating liquor. When good harvests have been enjoyed by people in the rural areas there are people who hide themselves in the land because they have evil intentions. Some of them may be rapists. The reason for that is ascribed to the fact that the harvest has been good and the people are afraid to go to the lands. At the same time one finds there is no truth in such statement. The fact is that an averment is made to the effect that the lands have produced . Today Jabulani has been cited as one of the worst intoxicating drinks, as though it is the first time we have had intoxicating drinks . Let us scan the position. Is it Jabulani or is it the lack of character in ourselves? This habit of drinking intoxicating liquor is as old as the hills. The rogues cannot be helped. There are people who have taken to strong drink even before some of us were born. They drank this under control and with respect. Those people who have been referred to as pulling their dresses up shoulder-high are of low character and there is a saying that when you display goods people will buy. (Laughter) There is something queer when one has taken a strong drink because that person is not prone to inhibitions. One who has not imbibed strong liquor is prone to respect himself. When a person is inclined to do something evil he says he must get rid of his self-respect by having a drink so that he does away with all the remaining self-respect he has. We must understand that once a person has no respect for himself and for others the element of humanity deserts him. There is nothing wrong with Jabulani in itself. The fault lies with the behaviour of the individual. I do not know if the hon. chiefs have ever come into these hotels and lounges where people entertain one another. In October last year I went to the Transkei

279

a doctor and the medicine is to be taken a teaspoonful at a time. What would happen if he took a cupful? Would the mover and his supporters not agree to an investigation into the component parts of the commodity known as Jabulani? We agree that Jabulani has intoxicating properties. Is it the first species of intoxicating liquor we have seen? What is being said about the different types of liquor such as brandy, wine and all these concoctions? I think the people of Port St. John's will be very glad to know that I stood up to speak against the abolition of this liquor because Jabulani is the main beverage imbibed in Port St. John's. In hot weather when you offer "marewu" and Jabulani, people will go for Jabulani. I have not heard what alternative the mover has offered to Jabulani. Jabulani has been proved by experts to be non-injurious to health. If this particular beverage has been inspected by those best qualified to do so, who has the right to condemn it? I think the mistake the mover made was to suggest that Jabulani must be further investigated. I think we are lucky we have this amendment. Is it not better now to support that amendment? Hon. members, there is nothing much we can do except to support the amendment to the motion. I am certain that the mover has never partaken of Jabulani. If he had he would not have moved this motion. Another point is that I do not think the mover of the motion is aware of the trouble that was taken to investigate the question of Jabulani by those people who had to finance the undertaking before it was introduced . The XDC did not force the sale of

late funds. Not only certain municipalities sell Jabulani, but almost all of them do. What we should try to find out is how to protect our people from the iniquities of Jabulani. There is no need for an investigation because as you go down the streets of Umtata you will see for yourself the results of Jabulani. I have mentioned that all intoxicating drinks come into the same category. The problem confronting the mover of this motion is that Jabulani has been accepted by our Government and yet it is an innovation that is very destructive to the people. To allege that Jabulani is harmless is false. When a person has not partaken of Jabulani he remains exactly what he is. There are other dangers we must try to avoid. I want to suggest there are certain battles which you can win by running away, rather than by facing them, and if we can find a way of getting the economy on its feet, if we can devise a method of accumulating money without the sale of Jabulani we should use those means. Before the introduction of Jabulani into the Transkei one never saw a man walking about naked or using a bare arm in agitating the beer. The truth is that some of the intoxicating liquors which have been brewed are illegal. There are members in this House who have constantly maintained the same character and they are not a good example to others. I should mention that the paramount chiefs in this House are a good example to all the members but certain members in this Assembly are a disgrace on account of Jabulani and other drinks. One hon. member says I am mentioning the chiefs, but I did not mention the chiefs specifically. However, if the cap fits they can wear it. (Interjections) Hon. members should realise that certain beers are very

Jabulani. It was an agreement with the Government. What will be the position of the XDC which has taken the trouble to have factories and distribution points for Jabulani? In the meantime we are asking for the expansion of industries. Shall we be encouraging the XDC to boost our industry then when we are going to put the XDC in such a quandary as this motion suggests? That is why we suggest that a further analysis be made into the component parts of Jabulani, so that if any faulty elements are found they can be eliminated . What will those people in the XDC say when they find out we have been doing them down? I would like to know whether any of the members who support the abolition of Jabulani have been in contact with those who partake of this beverage. I would like to know if we have come to this House to starve the people or to promote their wellbeing. Hon. members, I think we should support the amendment wholeheartedly. I am certain that if we are unanimous in the view that the component parts of Jabulani be inspected and analysed then we shall be in the right direction. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, now I see the effect of Jabulani in this House, because the Government benches have been emptied altogether. (Laughter) When I came in here I had a sinking feeling that some of the hon. members on the governing side were merely sticking to their chairs and eager to get out as soon as possible. The evidence this afternoon has justified that impression. I have no reason to believe at any time that any nation can be helped economically, socially, morally by giving it Jabulani. One apology of the arguments to justify the sale of Jabulani is that it provides funds for social amenties; that local authorities would be impoverished without the proceeds of Jabulani and that sports facilities, entertainment facilities, recreational facilities would not be provided without the funds from Jabulani. I have, however, asked this question of this fallacious argument : How are you going to get the drunk to kick the ball that you bought with the proceeds of

expensive but because a man has 20c. he is able to go round the corner and get a drink. Let us face the broad issues of this motion. The bare fact is that Jabulani is iniquitous. The protagonists of Jabulani cannot stand up and testify that what we see taking place today occurred before the coming of Jabulani. In supporting this motion I would suggest that the XDC must find other means of assisting the Transkei economically, apart from this Jabulani . We are all parents here and should be a good example to our children. Hon. members who sustain the drinking of Jabulani would not be comfortable to know that their daughters were lying drunk at the beerhall, nor would any member be pleased to know that his wife is busy drinking Jabulani while he is here in the Assembly, and that when he meets her afterwards she is in a drunken state. With those words I support the motion. Mr B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up in support of the amendment. Personally I do not say that Jabulani per se is no good . It all hinges on the character of the person. There are some people who are prone to over-indulgence in something pleasant. The aim of the amendment is to put Jabulani in a state where it shall not be imbibed in such large quantities, namely that it should not be so tasteful. (Laughter) I would like to understand from the hon. member and his supporters whether, if a certain food is delicious and appetizing and it is taken excessively, those foods must be abolished . (Laughter) Ordinary porridge may be dangerous if it is taken excessively and even beans may be responsible for stomach trouble. Even meat taken to excess is not good for one. I would like to know from the hon. member who supports the abolition of Jabulani if he has investigated these cases and found out to what extent these sufferers have taken. Jabulani . Now, the homely example is this: A person suffering from some complaint gets a prescription from

280

you see the effects of Jabulani and I am worried because I cannot speak in this House because of the effects of Jabulani on some of the members. (Laughter) It has beeen suggested by the amendment that some investigation of some sort should be conducted into Jabulani, that the effects of beerhalls be investigated as affecting the moral lives of the people. Do we really need to look again at what we see? Do we have to appoint a commission to write down what we already know? Do we have to temporize with the situation and allow it to continue ravishing our people whilst we know that it is destroying our people? you know, this question of investigations and inquiries and what have you is a way out for all Governments. The popular formula is that this matter is being investigated or will be investigated. You never know whether an investigation is held because by the following year, twelve months thereafter, the Government hopes that no member will remember the matter again. (Laughter) Do we need to investigate an evil when we know that it is an evil? Do we need to look at the mud when we see that it is mud? Let us not take evasive actions, and I submit that this amendment is just an avoiding action. You are moral cowards. (Interjections) I must call you these names because you are so. One of the hon. members from the governing party said this afternoon that if you oppose Jabulani then the voters who drink Jabulani will not vote you back here. That is the type of man we have coming into the Assembly the man who panders to the weaknesses of the electorate because he wants to come here and get money.

Jabulani? How is he going to take advantage of the recreational facilities if he has to be drunk in order to provide the money to provide these facilities? For that reason alone I think any argument suggesting that money is made available for local development is fallacious because in the first and final instance you destroy first the people who are ultimately supposed to enjoy those facilities. Then again, with the introduction of Jabulani there has been a spate of immoral and abnormal behaviour on the part of those who drink Jabulani. You have had evidence here of incidents which are altogether tantamount to a degeneration of humanity, and anything which destroys the man, the woman, the child, no matter how much money it makes available should be condemned left, right and centre. Men do not live for money alone. There are better things for which we are on this earth, and Jabulani certainly militates against the better influence. Then again, you have got to go to some of these villages which have beerhalls to realise to what extent these centres are the breeding places for all sorts of diseases. Mr H. PAMLA: That is hearsay evidence. Mr GUZANA: If it is hearsay evidence I would like your personal experience then, (Laughter) and if you do not give us your personal experience you will be a dishonest man. Toilets are provided and they are never used. The whole area inside and outside the yard becomes an open toilet, and a degrading familiarity develops between men and women who are neither married nor lovers nor of any relationship whatsoever. We have, consequent upon that, relationships which may result in the spread of venereal and other diseases of a similar nature, so that a beerhall once established becomes a big hazard to the health of the people, not only of those who go there but of those who are living in the town itself. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Do you agree with me that all liquor has these results? Mr GUZANA: This may be said about all liquor, but today we are speaking specifically about this obnoxious introduction of Jabulani. We can mention evils of other things, but today we are dealing specifically with Jabulani. Now, we are concerned with the health of the people and at the same time condoning a breeding place for health hazards. If the XDC has money to invest in beerhalls, why does it not use that money and invest it in industry other than the beerhall industry? (Interjections) There is a dearth of factories and industries in the Transkei. There is a demand for labour-intensive enterprises . Why is this money not used to meet this demand for jobs in the Transkei , rather than have it used to degenerate the character of the black man? Is there anybody in this House who can say from the human and personal point of view that Jabulani has done the black man, or anybody for that matter, any good? It is just an agent for destroying the people, for destroying the tribe, for destroying the nation. CHIEF P. JOZANA: What do you say about brandy and wine? Mr GUZANA: The hon. member for Umzimkulu is worried over brandy and wine and wants to know what my reactions are. I don't know what to do about those intoxicants, particulary when they have enslaved the hon. member to such a degree that he would drop dead if he were to do without. (Laughter) I like you better alive than dead, so I shall close my eyes to brandy and wine just to keep you alive. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please

(Interjections) They will continue to temporize with a wrong and indefensible situation because it is going to prolong their income. (Interjections) At least I do not get the people drunk in order to fight. They fight because they are full of beans. I charge this Government with dishonesty if it can support this amendment. They are moral cowards and they are not worthy of the name "Christians". Because they don't want to be reported as opposed to Jabulani they pander to the evil of the sale of Jabulani, finding a way out by saying we are going to investigate. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Have the people of Mqanduli asked you to come and abolish Jabulani here? Mr GUZANA: They have decidedly and unequivocally set their faces against Jabulani, and I invite you to go into the Mqanduli district to hold a meeting in my absence and they will tell you so. Hon. paramount chiefs, hon. members, let us see the beginnings of the destruction of the black man through Jabulani. Those who come from Mount Currie, Matatiele, Mount Ayliff, Umzimkulu and know the history of the Coloured community vis á vis their farms will see that that is the writing on the wall for you and me everybody who is in the Transkei, and that you have got to call a spade a spade and not call it a digging instrument. Some people have suggested that there should be a chemical analysis of Jabulani to find out whether or not there are dangerous ingredients in it. We need not be scientists, but let us look at this: Keep Jabulani for three days and it becomes poisonous. What do they say of White Horse? "It's never sold until it's old." The longer you keep it the better it is. They tell you that Johnny Walker was born in 1820 and is still going strong. But Jabulani goes bad and poisonous in three days. (Laughter) You compare it with the ordinary Bantu beer. The longer you keep it the more pungent Bantu beer becomes. Younger men are not given that beer which has been kept long. It belongs to old men, and yet if you keep Jabulani it becomes more and more poisonous . Do we

Mr GUZANA: Now, it has been suggested ... Now

281

need any scientists then to analyse Jabulani and show it to be what it is ? The government party came to this House very early this session, rather fullsome with the subject of independence, and one of the aspects of independence, I believe, is that we must be free to drink as much Jabulani as we please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You can drink it now. It does not need independence. Mr GUZANA: But much more will be consumed when the people think they are independent . I ask the question: What responsible society are you going to have which is sunk in Jabulani to look to and look for employment and make a success of independence? Didn't President Kaunda say he would resign his post if he was going to have a nation of drunkards? This Government is going towards independence and is condoning drunkenness and will have a drunken independent state. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr GUZANA: I said "a drunken independent state" . I suppose you don't know the metaphor. I have used the one for the other. I mean the people of that independent state will be drunk. It is just as well that we should know these things and know the threats to human dignity, human personality, self-respect, coming as they do in the mark of Jabulani and in the packet of Jabulani and in the beerhalls. I charge the Government that it is indeed condoning the consumption and sale of Jabulani. Mr H. PAMLA : We are going to have an investigation.

tor's certificate has just been handed to me this morning. I move that his absence be condoned by the House. The other day I intimated the absence of the hon. Chief Stanford Sigcau because he was required at home. from a subsequent report I heard that he lost one of his children so he is not in the House, Sir, and I recommend that his absence be condoned and on behalf of the House I wish to express our sincere condolences to the hon. member. The hon. Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa has lost his uncle who will be buried on Saturday an uncle who was only recently one of the senior members on our staff in the Department of the Interior. The person responsible for the arrangement for the funeral is away in South-West Africa and so Chief Kaulele is the only close relative now to see to the funeral arrangements. He has just left this morning and I move that his absence be condoned until Saturday. Sir, the members of the Assembly for Umzimkulu are required to attend a very important and urgent official meeting in Umzimkulu on Friday, 3rd May. Actually, they are required by the Chief Minister to attend that meeting which is very important and I hope that their absence will be condoned as from tomorrow afternoon. The hon. the Minister of the Interior is also absent as she feels unwell today. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second, MI Chairman. Agreed to. NOTICES OF BILLS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Friday, 3rd May 1974, I purpose to move the first reading of a bill to amend Proclamation R334 of 1963 - that is the statutory provision governing the conditions of service of officers and employees in the Transkeian Government Service. MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon. the Minister of the Interior I beg to give notice that on Thursday, 2nd May 1974, she proposes to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Act, 1970 in order to provide for the consolidation of annuities, bonuses and allowances payable to pensioners. Further, Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon. the Minister of the Interior, I beg to give notice that on Thursday, 2nd May 1974, she proposes to move the first reading of a bill to regulate the training and employment of apprentices in certain trades in the Transkei and provide for matters incidental thereto. She further craves that permission be granted for the first and second readings of the bill to be proceeded with in one official language namely English.

Mr GUZANA : Imagine me seeking to investigate the hon. member for Umzimkulu when I know who he is! He asks me who gave birth to him. It is a very difficult question. (Laughter) Mr PAMLA: My mother knows, of course. Mr GUZANA: But certainly you don't know. You were only told about it. Now, I come back to this subject. I said you are indeed supporting the sale of Jabulani. If Jabulani then is so good for us in that it is a drink that stimulates the nervous system, that breaks down all inhibitions, let us bring some Jabulani into this House and have a good fill of it before we start our discussions. Let us see whether it can stimulate some of the members here. Let me tell you that anybody of any standing will say No to Jabulani. Just a straightforward No, and you say so to the electorate and the chiefs will say so to their subjects and this Government will say so to the XDC. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 1st May 1974.

FOREST AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill. It is unfortunate that the Afrikaans and Xhosa copies are not yet available and I move, therefore, that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I propose that it be read a second time tomorrow.

WEDNESDAY, 1ST MAY 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr Chairman, there is something which seems to be an irregularity in the minutes. The name of the Secretary is given as W. Z. Lusu. After investigations I have discovered that Mr Ndibongo is now the Secretary. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, Mr Lusu remains the Secretary of the Legislative Assembly. Never mind his absence, hon. chief. I think that is correct.

ABOLITION OF BEERHALLS IN TRANSKEI The debate was resumed. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment to this motion. The amendment seeks that there should be an investigation into the question. In the amendment there is nothing to suggest that this side have been labelled

ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the hon. Chief Gwebizilwane Sigcau of Flagstaff has been away from the 8th April to the 29th because of ill-health. A doc282

as people who like Jabulani and the very mover of this motion sells Jabulani in his store. (Laughter) I saw how anxious he was when he looked at the hon. members of the Opposition. What surprises us is that the mover should come direct to this House with a motion of this nature instead of first consulting the people and the tribal authorities to find out what they feel about the matter. We do not know whether they are afraid of the people, but whatever they are afraid of we also fear. Yes, we had some open admissions from members on the Opposition benches that they are afraid to take this matter direct to the people lest they should not be re-elected to this House. (Laughter) They admit that the people like to partake of Jabulani , but it is the Government who must abolish the brewing and sale of Jabulani. The mover of the motion has suggested that Jabulani reduces the resistance of a man and has disruptive effect on the family. I do not think there is much truth in that statement because people are living peacefully together in spite of the fact that they drink Jabulani. I admit that when Jabulani was first introduced it was quite a strong beverage, but now it appears that the strength has been reduced . If hon. members feel that Jabulani is undermining the health of the nation it is their duty to go to the people and convince them of the dangers of this drink. If there is any truth in the fact that Jabulani is dangerous to drink, why should the hon. members not educate the people in regard to the dangers since they are able to educate the people on other matters? We are busy persuading and educating the people in regard to the evils and hazards of all alcoholic drinks and I do not think this question of Jabulani is very important.

will not voice an opinion when they fear that their seats might be at stake. (Interjections) If it is a question of having to tell lies I would rather people did not vote for me than not speak the truth. The hon. the Minister of Justice described the unhealthy methods employed in the making of Kaffir beer. This is not so. He has exaggerated the whole process so that his listeners would detest the idea of drinking Kaffir beer. As far as I know, anyone who has to handle this type of liquor first washes her hands and arms, but in our modern days these people use a wooden instrument to stir the beer. I am sure it was a mere exaggeration when the hon. Minister stated that flies, cockroaches and dead mice could be found in Kaffir beer. Seeing things like flies and cockroaches drop into our meals is something that is quite common. I have seen chiefs drink this Bantu liquor and they would not partake of something filthy. (Interjections)

CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr JAFTA: One day the Paramount Chief of Pondoland had important white visitors from Pretoria and when he welcomed them he gave them some Kaffir beer and told them that that is how respect is shown to visitors according to his custom. It was a large container and the white people partook of that beer. In making this reference I want to prove that there was no truth in the statement that Kaffir beer is made in an unhealthy manner. What members should remember are the evil results brought about by people drinking Jabulani. The people who live in Umtata area should know that as a result of that beerhall the children are becoming a serious problem, even the students at the college. Which of you takes a pride in the development and improvement of our youth would be pleased to witness such a bad state of affairs? Mr Chairman, men and women spend day and night in these beerhalls. (Interjections) You also find young girls remaining in the beerhalls. These are sights dreadful to see and no nation can tolerate such things . We regarded ourselves as a lucky nation seeing that our leaders, right from the hon. the Chief Minister to the lowest member, are total abstainers. We are now surprised that these leaders of ours should try to evade a matter which we point out to them as a source of evil. Jabulani is poisonous and effects the minds of human beings. I did not bring this motion because I pride myself on being a Christian. I brought it for consideration by the leaders of the people, and those leaders are the members of this House. This is a question which should receive serious consideration by these people. It would be a most disgraceful thing to have a nation of drunkards. Instead of these Jabulani beerhalls, why were milk bars not introduced? Milk bars would quench the thirst that always seems to worry some people, but it is also a valuable food. Mr Chairman, I will not speak at length because this matter has been well canvassed by members. All that is left for me to do is to request members to support this motion unanimously. To terminate I will speak now as a Christian. All the members of this Assembly who are preachers, whether they belong to the Roman Catholic, the Methodist, the Anglican Church or even to a "donkey" church as we say, should all come and vote unanimously for the original motion.

CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I am of the opinion that this matter has been thoroughly canvassed and I shall now call upon the mover to reply. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members , I have listened to all the speakers who voiced their opinions in regard to this question of beerhalls. In fact, the first speaker on the Government side attempted to discourage me and other people. He stated that I did not bring forth any facts in support of my motion, but the truth is that I did lay facts before this House in support of my motion, which facts he purposely neglected and deliberately made amusing remarks. He tried to close his eyes to these facts and made a further attempt to influence his supporters to act likewise. Why did he speak in that strain? The only conclusion I could arrive at was that he was attempting to shelter and protect his rights as far as the electorate is concerned. These rights which he was attempting to protect are simply that the electorate who are keen and wish to drink Jabulani would, on learning that he stood against this motion, give him the vote as well as his party. All the people who have been enslaved by Jabulani cannot tell the difference between what is good or bad for them. We as citizens of the Transkei should sympathize with people and even if we have to state a truth that is unacceptable to certain people we must speak out and not attempt to make them favour us when we know that we are protecting them from something that is destructive to them. The hon. the Minister of Justice stated that we cannot stop people from anything they like. As sensible leaders we believe that we should lead people to something that will enable them to succeed. As an enlightened person I would not want to keep my mouth closed and not say a word when I know very well that I might stop people from doing something that is injurious to them. I know the temptation that affects all members of parliament. It is that they

CHAIRMAN : The question is a motion by the hon. Mr N. Jafta, to which the hon. the Minister of Justice has moved an amendment. I shall first put the amendment.

283

Mr Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr Ramsay Madikizela Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr Gotgot Nathan Jafta Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Khalakulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile Mr Gebane Norman Sipunzi

Amendment put and accepted after a division as follows:AYES Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr Silas Walker Mbanga Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr Popo Pakamile Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Chief George Sibidla Ndabankulu Acting Chief Msopana Bonkolo Mr Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr Walton Langalibalele Sipuka Chief Devilliers Tsotso Mapassa Mr Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Matanzima Magadla Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Mr Kolisile Timothy Mbobo Mr Colley Dabula Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Kaizer Ndamase Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr Mbele Eleven Dekeda Mr Bokololo Phillip Vapi Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Acting Chief George Bangilizwe Siyabalala Acting Chief Mbuzo Ngangomhlaba Matanzima Mr Tembekile Enoch ka-Tshunungwa Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo Mr Cromwell Diko Mr Dorrington Ndamase Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Chief Wiseman Gon'tsana Nkwenkwezi Chief Solomon Tobigunya Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Chief Msukukeni Dlamini Mr Lenford Sipiwa Baleni Mr Hamilton Pamla Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Mr Mxosana Jackson Sigwela

TELLERS:

1. L. L. Mgudlwa 2. C. Diko

TOTAL: 17 Motion as amended put and agreed to. TRANSFER OF ALL TRANSKEIAN TOWNS TO TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT Mr W. S. Mbanga : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to cause the transfer by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope of all the remaining towns in the Transkei to the Transkeian Government." Mr Chairman, in introducing and discussing this motion I would like to draw the attention of the House first of all to a similar motion that was discussed here at the last session of parliament. This motion was moved very ably by the St. Mark's member Mr T. E. kaTshunungwa, and will be found on page 84 of the Hansard for last year. It was discussed and debated on by the House at length. Among other things this motion mentioned the zoning of the towns and the control and management by Africans in the towns which had already been handled over to the Blacks. This takes us to the position where we must now consider the 1963 Act which sought to eliminate all the white spots in the Transkei. When the first Black broke through in one of the chief white areas under discussion now, namely Butterworth, Idutywa, Umtata, Engcobo and Umzimkulu" when we had a black man taking over a property in Norwood in 1964, this was the reaction of the Whites in Umtata. It was summed up in a quotation by the then Mayor of Umtata: "We are not worried because an African has moved into town. We have accepted Government policy and we know that the plan envisages the gradual take-over of the white spots by the Blacks." The first noticeable reaction of the Whites was the emergence of three classes of white people in the Transkei. We could refer to the first group as the "Nelson Group", who fell under this quotation in regard to the handing over of white spots and they are the people who gave themselves to co-operate with the Government's policy. Then there was the second group who did not agree to the policy and dissented in plain actions, hence the exodus of a stream of white people who decided to leave the Transkei. The third group is that of those Whites who, we can say, are opportunists. In all this movement they saw a chance for themselves to get what they could get and get it as quickly as they could. We could subdivide this last group into (a) and (b). I have referred to (a) as clearcut opportunists in this movement. The second subdivision are those Whites who were undecided on the issue. They just remained, hoping things would improve on their own. With the exodus of these white people who were unwilling to co-operate with the Government's policy there was a noticeable decrease in the population of white people in the Transkei . This gave a chance to the Government to arrange a plan whereby Blacks could be trained to take over the man-

TELLERS: 1. H. D. Mlonyeni; 2. S. A. Xobololo. TOTAL: 55. NOES Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr Sipiwo Alfred Xobololo Mr Lingham Maninjwa Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane

$284

more for their properties. Mr Chairman and hon. members, I put it to this House that now is the time to request the Republican Government to approach the Provincial Administration to hand over the five towns. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I second the motion. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have the onerous duty of keeping the children away from the burning fire. (Laughter) They see the fire as a fascinating object and want to put their finger into it and I have to keep them away all the time. When you look at this motion you wonder whether or not the mover knows what he is talking about, for to my mind he seems to confuse zoning with transfer and he seems to think that because certain villages in the Transkei and portions of towns in the Transkei have been zoned black they have automatically been transferred out of the control of the Provincial Administration to the conrol of the Transkeian Government. Mr MBANGA: You must have been sleeping when I spoke. Mr GUZANA: If I was asleep when the hon, member spoke I think I am safer sleeping sitting down than to be asleep on my feet. All towns in the Transkei are in the control of the Provincial Administration, whether zoned or not zoned, and purchases of immovable property in zoned areas result in transfers being effected at the Deeds Registry in Cape Town. As the motion stands it seems to suggest that all zoned towns have been transferred to vest in the Transkei Government and that there are "remaining towns", when in fact all of them have not vested in the Transkei Government. So we can really blow out this motion by asking which are the "remaining towns" remaining from what which has been transferred? Mr H. PAMLA: You are confusing the issue. Mr GUZANA: If I am trying to confuse the issue you should remain clear in your mind so that you can argue it objectively. The whole complex which motivates such a motion is one of segregation by the black man. For once in a while for once in his lifetime, the black man imagines that he has in his hand the handle of the whip and he is cracking the whip of apartheid, separation, segregation. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Amen. Mr GUZANA: Amen indeed, (Laughter) and this side of the House has found you out. You pay lip service to unity with white South Africa and then growl when you get back into your pondokkies, because the intended transfer, or the requested transfer is specifically for the purpose of excluding other racial groups so that the black man has a monopoly, so that the Old Testament adage of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is relevant to the thinking of the governing party. I would understand if you sought merely control without this magnificent obsession about who is going to own in these particular towns, but we know that whilst ostensibly people ask for the transfer and control of the towns, right beneath the table, right under the floor there is a creeping, poisonous snake which is hissing to bite the other racial groups to death. Mr PAMLA: Are they not biting you? They are biting now. 'MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We never saw this snake. Mr GUZANA: The hon. member for Umzimkulu asks whether the white man is not biting you now. Now, there is a revelation of the intention behind this motion! (Laughter) We need not emphasize it. It is obvious for every man to see that he is waiting for a time to bite because he says he was bitten. We are, you are and everybody is talking of independence, and if

agement, starting first of all with the smaller villages of the Transkei. Altogether we had 19 of these small villages which were first handed over to this intermediate body known as the Townships Board. As hon. members will recall, this body is constituted of a representative of the Government and an official of the municipality who is an expert in municipal management, and also trainees of Blacks. So satisfactory has been the work of this Townships Board that we have it on record that twelve Village Management Boards are now under the full management and control of black staff, and as we know, with this gathering of momentum it is only reasonable and logical to see that the remaining towns would be ready for handing over. It is very painful to try and consider with you, hon. members, the position of those Blacks who happen to fall within these municipalities which are controlled by Whites, but we are under an obligation to mention the plight of these Blacks. We shall not go far for an example. Take the case of Umtata itself. Ngangelizwe is supposed to be in the Municipality of Umtata, Noambedlana falls under the direct management of Umtata, and so does Norwood. You take together the black population of these three divisions together with the black population inside Umtata. Knowing as we do that they pay the same rates, but the catering falls far short of satisfacory services. You know he condition of the roads in Ngangelizwe and elsewhere. You know what is happening at Ncambedlana which is supposed to be catered for by the Municipality of Umtata, and only very, very recently the Municipality gave up and said somebody else must take over the administration of Norwood and Ncambedlana. That does not improve the situation at all, so that with the saisfactory progress of the Transkei Townships Board training Blacks to take over in the last three years we have come to believe that now is the time to hand over the remaining five towns. If we allow a position like this to remain any longer then we shall come to a position where even these opportunists will wreak more havoc than they have done, and it is the duty of this House now to follow up the takeover, and this has been done very sensibly in a gradual manner. With independence just round the corner it is only logical to submit this legitimate request to the Government. Mr K. M. GUZANA: You haven't got independence yet. Don't talk of the future. Mr MBANGA: I said it is round the corner and we must think in advance of things to come. The very fact that you have such small numbers shows that you are incapable of thinking in advance. After ten years, taking these things step by step, it is just in order now that we must tie up the loose ends of the take-over. Mr GUZANA: The whole thing is loose. Don't just talk of loose ends. Mr MBANGA: We have had this experience before that when things are moving we hear of things which do not matter. The distance covered in ten years is no small distance at all . . . ' Mr GUZANA: If you are on a merry-go-round what happens? Mr MBANGA: • and very soon we shall not be hearing these small noises. In fact, it is proof that we are moving if we hear these noises. Another point we should be careful of is the matter of regulations . If we allow any length of time which would give the opportunists a chance to ruin relations between Black and White by their liberties then we shall not be thinking forward. We know only too well their tactics in the black-owned areas, how they have faked up valuation and made extensions to buildings just so they can get

285

by way of the Townships Committees, been trained in local management. Mr Chairman, may I move an adjournment. The debate was adjourned.

that were to happen (and the "if" is in capital letters) then it would be incongruous for any government other than the Government of the Transkei to control any particular area within the boundaries. I am wondering whether the governing party understands what it means by independence for the Transkei, because once independence is granted it solves all these problems ― con-

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the transfer of all Transkeian towns to the Transkei Government was resumed . Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, if the Africans in the Transkei are members of advisory committees and local boards this is a very good thing to have happened. Before they can assume greater responsibility there is need for them to get training in local administration and local management; but whilst the governing side contemplates exclusive control and management by these black citizens we are happy they are being prepared for participation with other races in local government. Lastly, it serves no purpose to say that we must watch race relations and then

trol of zoned or unzoned areas, control of remaining towns or not remaining towns. All that is solved by independence. Mr PAMLA: Give them the last chance to suck you dry. Mr GUZANA: The hon. member for Umzimkulu asks if I want to give the white man more time to suck us dry. Considering the hon. member's avoirdupois weight he does need to be sucked down to size. (Laughter) Let us think more objectively about these matters. Let us drop the side issues and concentrate on the main thing, for prinpricks, these sidekicks, these sensitive areas which we constantly irritate will create an atmosphere altogether hostile even to your thinking. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, no. There were motions like that, but not this one. Mr GUZANA: That is why I say we must look at the big thing .. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This is the big thing all right. Mr GUZANA: . . . and leave the small things to solve themselves. The hon. member told us there were four groups of Whites which emerged after the zoning of certain towns in the Transkei . (Interjections) There is what he describes as the "Nelson Group" which sought to co-operate. Now I want to ask him whether he is making provision for the Nelson group which seeks to co-operate when these towns are transferred to the Transkei, because the Nelson group has not bitten the black man — it has said they will co-operate. Is he providing for the Nelson group or is he going to kick the Nelson group out as well ? Then there is the group which left in what he describes as an exodus, because they were opposed. But human beings have a right to and are entitled to decide where they will live and where they will not live, and if the future looked dark in their eyes they were entitled to look for brighter areas. Indeed, the hon. member should be happy that there was an exodus, because this played right into his hands. Then he tells us of the white opportunists. I don't know of any white person owning property in town being described as an opportunist. He sold his property to the South African Bantu Trust or privately to the black buyer who wanted to buy, and in a transaction of purchase the sale the buyer wants to pay the lowest price whilst the seller wants to get the best price. The definition, therefore, of some Whites being opportunists is unfounded altogether. Then you say that there is an undecided group which does not know what to do. That is the group to which you should address yourself so as to give them an assurance for the future, so that they should be assured of what their position will be in the Transkei. It is no use seeking to assure them when they have got their bags packed or have crossed the Kei River and try to beckon them back. The time is now to give them an opportunity. (Interjections) The hon. member for Umzimkulu says that is the reason why they always fill up my house. If he didn't live in the bundu, probably they would visit him regularly. There is nothing to boast about in that. If anything, it is because no animosity exists between myself and themselves, and certainly no lamb will walk into a lion's den to provide a meal for it. The hon. member indicated that black residents have,

not say and do the things that do protect good relationships in South Africa. If in our utterances and in our actions we are going to betray race intolerance then we have no reason to expect that there will be good race relationships, and what would be a suggestion in the present circumstances which might help to improve these race relationships in relation to the control and management of these towns and in relation to ownership in these towns by Blacks, may I suggest that, if anything, our Government should make representations for the cutting up of new erven, virgin erven in the commonages, to enable Africans to buy and put up their own structures. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What was your attitude when that motion was brought by the hon. member for Cofimvaba? Mr GUZANA: When the hon. member for Cofimvaba spoke about new erven being cut up we said that is the right thing, for it means that the black man does not have to buy up century-old houses. He would put up houses based on his own plans. That was our reaction. Both sides of the House were agreed upon the fact that some of the houses released for purchase by the Blacks were old, built of mud bricks, deceptively plastered, and we wanted them to be able to build their own houses. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I wanted to be reminded. Mr GUZANA: And we still stand on that principle. As the Africans begin to settle and put up houses and own property in Butterworth, Engcobo, Idutywa, Cofimvaba, etc., they shall have a right to participate in the management of the town. Not that the hon. member for Umzimkulu would be allowed to cast a vote! (Laughter) Hon. members, the operative word is this : What are we going to do to maintain good race relationships without jeopardizing the rights and the dignity of the black man in South Africa? I think the common denominator is that we must respect democracy irrespective of race, colour or creed . Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr W. S. MBANGA : Mr Chairman, may I crave the indulgence of this House as well as apply for the suspension of the rules of this House to effect a slight, very slight ... Mr GUZANA: And very significant . . . Mr MBANGA: . . . amendment to my motion. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. Mr GUZANA: Is this a second bite? You see, we talk to the motion as it is tabled and then it is amended. I am going to talk again.

286

As a result of these factories we see quite a number of white people coming into the Transkei. We are definitely not opposed to this influx of the Whites in so far as the economic development of the Transkei is concerned, but one thing must be quite clear. Their existence in the Transkei, a country that is being handed over to us - we will stay with them as far as industrialization is concerned, and as far as they are concerned on an agency basis. The policy of separate development is aimed at handing over things that are Caesar's to Caesar, and the Transkei belonged to our great-grandfathers and we are happy that the Central Government of the Republic of South Africa is restoring to us that land which was lost. I will not say I am claiming Tanganyika, Kenya and those other countries. I was born in the Transkei so I am claiming only what belonged to our greatgrandfathers. Whilst there are negotiations between these two Governments and there is promise from the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic that any homeland that wishes to be independent he is willing to give it over, during this interim period it is only humanly correct that the black people must have access to the administration in all these towns. Let us assume we get this independence for which we hunger so much, I am sure the African people will not be as callous and as bad as what the Whites did to our fellow brothers and sisters when they had to be removed from certain spots like Sophiatown which were termed black spots in a white enivornment. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: It was because of separate development that that was done. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: In fact there were people shedding tears in places like Sophiatown and Korsten in the Eastern Province when they were told that the spot they occupied belonged to the white man. If the same Government that removed our black people from areas that belonged to them in the past, and because of this separate development that has been going on they decided to sell those people, then there will be a time when we shall say: This is black, you had better go to the white area. I am sure our Government will be full of humanitarianism in so far as the existence of the white man in a homeland is concerned, as against what was meted out against our people in Sophiatown when their houses were bulldozed. When we say Butterworth, Idutywa, Umtata, Umzimkulu and Engcobo must be transferred over to us we are looking forward to a time when we shall say: Right, we have got these towns. And indeed the Republican Government should appreciate the fact that these towns I have mentioned are within the borders of the Transkei, and we are quite certain that the Republican Government will see and pay a very sharp ear to our request about all the towns in the Transkei falling under our Government. Nobody has any animosity towards the white man in the Transkei . (Laughter) Mr K. M. GUZANA: You are not going to deceive us. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: We are quite grateful to them for the know-how, but the position is quite clear and no person must be under a misdirected outlook. The position is such that under the policy of separate development all that is within the borders of the Transkei belongs to the black man. GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I am happy because one of the remarks from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was that after independence, if we get it, all these things will just be settled . We cannot have a situation where there are people who have a dual alle-

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are not going to talk again. CHAIRMAN : Order please. Mr MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, when this noise has subsided, this is intended to amend by deleting only one word in this motion - "remaining" and the motion will therefore read thus:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to cause the transfer by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope of all the towns in the Transkei to the Transkeian Government." MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second . CHAIRMAN: I call upon the next speaker. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members .. Mr GUZANA: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, just as a point of procedure may we have the motion as amended. (Amended motion read) Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the mover, the hon. member for Butterworth, who is the mover of this motion. In passing I would just touch upon the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and express how happy I have been when we listened to him with all glee and jubilation, fighting for the interests of the Whites just over that word "remaining' towns. Never in the past has he been so vividly clear in showing himself how much of a black Englishman he is, beecause we are fully aware of the fact that the hon. member has always been against the zoning of the towns completely black and he has always stood for the interests of the Whites in the Transkei. He showed that characteristic of his when he was debating on this motion before it was amended. We have in the Transkei 19 towns which are already zoned black and we know the existence of the Transkei Townships Board that is implementing a policy of having the black man in these various towns to be in the machinery as far as administration is concerned. Even last year these other towns were included when we wanted to have all the towns in the Transkei zoned black. The inclusion of that word "remaining" - I am happy that the mover has moved and requested that this word should be deleted from the motion because our clarion call now is that all these towns must be transferred to the Transkeian Government and that whilst the Whites are still residents in these towns our African people must receive a share in the administration. We can never allow a situation whereby some towns which are geographically inside the borders of the Transkei, but these towns are administered by Pretoria. The hon. member from Willowvale asks me whether there are any other towns transferred . Well, I concede to one point that they have not been transferred to us, but they are in the process of being transferred and we are enjoying now a right which was ours of having our men serving as town councillors, which means that this wagon is really on the move. In fact, the motion which follows this one is exactly touching on the administration of all these towns. That is why the motion I am speaking to requires that there should be a complete transfer to the Transkeian Government of all the towns in the Transkei. It is something that has to be handled with care because with repeated negotiation and dialogue with the Central Government, indeed these towns will be ours. Some of these towns, especially Umtata and Butterworth, have become growth points and we see a number of factories springing up. 287

Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: I was the seconder. You are curious - not the motion. Mr MGUDLWA: First and foremost, Mr Chairman, in fact the legal implications of this transfer, which I do not anticipate as a transfer as such more than that on the one hand there is the Transkei Townships Board, and the Transkeian Government and the mover does not know whether the Government is government or the Townships Board a government of its own. (Interjections) The hon. member for Cofimvaba alleges that I have a stomachful of Jabulani. (Laughter) I am happy to hear that inference from him because there was a division in this House and we objected to Jabulani. I wonder if he has been supporting Jabulani this afternoon? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr MGUDLWA: I am very happy to note that if a person had examined his own conscience before giving us this motion he should have realised and found out exactly how to present this motion to the House. I have never before heard an hon. member in this House discussing his motion and turning round halfway and amending his motion, in as much as I have never heard of a man curing himself of his own illness ; nor have I heard of a circumcised man wanting to be circumcised for a second time. The great idea in the minds of the hon. members is that they feel the advantage of being in the majority and it is for that reason that they think they can do and say as they like. (Interjecitons) CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

giance, because you cannot rule those people correctly. That is the situation as existing today. This must be an eye-opener to them. In fact, they should well appreciate the fact that should the Central Government agree to our request of declaring the Transkei independent it will be better for them to start packing their things now, and by those words I am not sounding any threat to the white man in the Transkei. All I am saying is that when this policy of separate development is carried out to its logical conclusion, I say we have accepted being driven out of the towns and they should also accept going back to the towns. The mover of the motion has put it so clearly before us that we want all these towns administered by the Government. It will only be a person who is insane who will not see the sense in what the mover of this motion has moved, because what is actually happening even in other departments of the government? We have African men who are understudying in every sphere and we want a similar thing to happen throughout the towns in the Transkei. The hon. members of the Opposition should reconsider their thoughts in so far as this motion is concerned . I will be surprised if they are going to follow the stupid action they do each time we clamoured for more land, because the motion now requires that our Government should negotiate with the Republican Government and the Provincial Administration to hand over all these towns to us. If we have such capable boys in our departments who today have been promoted to positions of being chief clerks, do you think the work of a town clerk in these small towns is more complicated than the work they are doing in these departments? We are on a preparatory phase now, that before the big thing comes our men must be quite efficient in the administration of these towns and dorps. With these remarks, Mr Chairman and hon. members of the House, I want to end up by saying we must live and let live. The Whites across the border of the Transkei will ever remain in good neighbourliness with us because we want a state of co-existence. We are not happy when there are certain times when a confrontation can just crop up because the Whites in these towns will look down upon us because they will say they belong to Pretoria. This motion is by no means any different from a motion which was piloted in this House by the hon. the Minister of Justice when he piloted a motion aimed at the transferring of all the police stations in the Transkei under his department. The hon. member for Butterworth wants all the towns to be transferred to the Transkei Government. Any white man who is against this may just leave. He must not say we have kicked him out. We are willing to give exit permits to even an African who does not want this policy. This is our country and God must bless us. We want liberty in our time.

Mr MGUDLWA: As a result of this independence mentality they have, they think they can ask for all this land outside the borders of the Transkei and they have been told bluntly they will never get those lands outside the Transkei. I implore the mover of the motion to explain to me why, as the Transkei is semiindependent, those towns have to be given to the Transkei in instalments. If the Transkei is a selfgoverning state why are the villages in the Transkei not under the control of the Transkeian Government? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, hon. members. Mr MUGDLWA: It is because they have not taken the trouble to scrutinize the Constitution Act diligently. You only see this Blue Book and you mistake it for the blue skies. (Laughter) The hon. member for Cofimvaba asks me if I am against the transfer of these townships . I want to direct the attention of the hon. member for Cofimvaba that if you want to secure anything you must secure it legally and not just grab what you want. I want to appeal to you, Mr Chairman, because there are some members in this House who are unable to discuss and when someone stands up to speak they just heckle all the time. We have been elected by the electorate and we must have a chance to speak. The hon. member, Mr Mbanga, quoted from page 84 of the Hansard for 1973 the discussions on a certain motion moved by the hon. Mr ka-Tshunungwa. I imagine that his aim is to eliminate the white spots, but I feel there are no white spots. The whole place is black. Our country is brown in colour and policy is that the whole country belongs to everyone be he brown, white or black. (Interjections) The hon. member has just informed this House that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is in the habit of protecting the white people. This motion is quite clear. It seeks negotiations with the Republican Government and the Provincial Administration for the release of these towns to the Transkei Government.

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am glad to participate in this motion moved by the hon. member for Butterworth to the effect that in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to cause the transfer by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope of all the remaining towns, and which has since been amended by the mover thereof. By the very fact that after having discussed a motion he comes out with this curious amendment it means that the hon. member is confused.

Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: What is curious? Mr MGUDLWA: The mover can ask that question. 288

Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: We know the motion. Are you against it? Mr MGUDLWA: I cannot understand why you have to knock at several doors to ask for something, because the Transkei Constitution Act says we must deal with the Republican Government. Now you are confused because you also mentioned the Provincial Administration. Mr C. DIKO : The man is wasting time. He is talking nonsense. Mr MGUDLWA: Are you asking for the zoning or the transfer of these villages ? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr MGUDLWA: This hon. member for Cofimvaba says some of these towns are geographically inside the borders of the Transkei. What is his interpretation of "geographically inside the borders of the Transkei "? Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: That is just what I said. We are talking about what is in the Transkei. Mr MGUDLWA: How otherwise are they geographically outside the borders? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is legally and administrviately otherwise. That is what is sought in the motion, to legalize the geographical situation. Mr MGUDLWA: To legalize the geographical situation? Why isn't the motion specific then? Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Are you against the motion? Yes or no? CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr MGUDLWA: You were given a chance, so I must have my own chance to speak. (Interjections) It is in fact so disgusting to listen to men who are dreaming in the daytime whilst they are standing on their legs. In fact, this motion as it is is no motion. There should have been introduced a fresh motion. Mr DIKO: All right, put a better one. Mr MGUDLWA: The motion is not from this side. (General disorder) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Hon. members are making too much noise. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I the remarks by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, thought I was coming to debate on this motion, but now I am convinced, after listening very carefully to that I have no alternative but to lecture to this House I have to lecture to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his misled followers. He did not make a single statement which contained any element of truth in relation to this motion in question. He did not even state whether he was opposed to the motion or agreeing with it. In fact, he spoke like an immature highschool debater. I wish to remind hon. members of the Opposition that this is not a preaching chamber. We want facts and constructive arguments here. Mr Chairman, I think I have given them enough education now and I can start my lecturee. Why do we want the transfer and control of these towns and villages to us? For over three centuries these towns and villages in the Transkei have played the rôle of nothing else but money-collectors for white merchants in the Transkei. This money collected by white traders has not been used for the economic development of the Transkei. Instead it has found passage to Greece, England, Germany, etc. If these white friends were interested in our economic development then we should be able to boast of at least one African millionaire. For over three centuries the whitecontrolled village management boards and municipalities have jealously guarded their trading rights and privileges. In most villages the minority have governed and controlled the majority. This reminds me of one

quotation I want to make. Somebody once said : Never in the history of mankind have so many been oppressed by so few for so long nor unnecessarily. And yet the irresponsible Bantu on my right wants the status quo maintained. If you allow the Whites to remain in these towns and villages then you automatically repel and oppress the Blacks. A glaring example of what I am saying is borne out by what happened just near here in Kokstad, when the town was zoned according to the Group Areas Act and the African landless who were occupying decent houses with electricity and all modern facilities of a home found themselves bundled in tin houses across the Umzimvubu River, and they had to pay exorbitant monthly rentals for tin houses. All their efforts to oppose this removal were crushed by the Town Council very ruthlessly. The Coloured people, of course, were given preferential treatment. They occupied Marais Street and the lower portion of the town. We know, of course, that they are called "amper baas", and that is why they had preferential treatment. The Africans who could not stick this unsuitable accommodation had to move away from Kokstad and some settled in Mount Ayliff, portion of Umzimkulu district and even Umtata. In the face of what I have said, Mr Chairman , I cannot imagine how we can suggest in this House that these towns should remain multi-racial. We want to take over the control of these towns and villages because we want to industrialize them. I have known several firms that have tried to create some industries in my village and who have never been granted any piece of land for sale for such purpose. The companies in these villages will do everything in their power to maintain the monopoly of trade. They even go to the extent of chasing away our own people from the streets when they try to sell their garden produce. We also want to control these towns because we feel it is high time our people were paid a living wage. Labourers in my village earn as little as onetenth of the so-called Poverty Datum Line. In fact, when we control the towns we shall encourage our people to form trade unions so that they can bargain for better salaries. The popular saying by some of the white traders, that if they leave the Transkei villages and towns the African people will starve, is utter nonsense. This argument is always used to frighten the Doubting Thomases on my right. We will be able to survive because we have even managed to survive under terrific exploitation from these people. Mr Chairman, I sometimes wonder if General Amin did not adopt the right attitude in dealing with these people. In fact, I feel that if these people are allowed to stay longer they are going to do far greater economic damage between now and 1976. Look at the fantastic prices they want for old dilapidated houses, in places like Bizana and Tabankulu, for instance. I know a place where an attorney has offered R2 000 for a house and the magistrate who conducts the purchase demands R5 000. I thank the mover of the motion and I hope our Government will take up this matter immediately so that at least we can now have a black Mayor of Umtata. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, the sight resembles a man who reads fairytales ... (Inaudible) CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the noise effected by the hon. members after the speaker has spoken in Xhosa interferes with the stenographer. Please permit the stenographer to do her work efficiently. Mr NKOSIYANE : The reason why I make this reference is because the Republican Government first 289

requested you to do all these things. They first zoned these villages and divided them into two and you concurred, and yet you still want to claim these villages. How successful have you been in using the portion allocated to you? When these villages were zoned the portions handed over to us really belonged to us. That is exactly what we require, and when you accepted that offer who did you think was going to be in control of that section? You accepted the zoning and yet you had no hand in the administration of these villages. These villages originally belonged to you. You are very much confused and you are great cowards. What has happened to the law which says if you reside here you cannot be driven away? If you have to move away you move of your own accord and leave your house there. (Interjections) What I mean is that the habitations I refer to are the old houses which we have purchased from these people. You should have told these people when you accepted separate development that these villages belonged to you. As it is, if you had thought previously the white people would have known they were building in places that did not belong to them. They are our villages because they are built in our country. The town of Umtata belongs to Dalindyebo. (Laughter) I am surprised you have adopted such a merry-go-round method because this country belongs to you and these towns belong to you. Do you think that a man who has migrated to this place from England has the right to move his house to England? (Laughter and injections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE : Don't you know that when he resides here is he contributing to the progress of the Transkei? If you require this place you should insist on asking the people to stay here with you on equal terms and if they don't wish to they may leave. We are protected by this idea that we have not told them to go away, but sell what you have and we will buy it. If you come across a pauper and you have nice garments, you cannot expect that man to purchase your garments because he has no funds. That is why General Amin decided to expel the white people — because he could not afford to buy their properties . (Laughter) He knew very well that he would not be able to buy their properties. General Amin felt it was useless to allow people to remain when they had all the property and he hadn't enough money to buy it. (Laughter) You are now beginning to cause a lot of confusion when you say these villages must belong to you, and yet you have been promised independence. When you have attained independence you must know that these villages are erected on your own soil. Have discussions and dialogue with these people and tell them when they want to go away they can sell their properties on agreed prices . If they don't want to sell their properties we shall ask them to stay with us, and if they don't want to stay with us they can quit. Mind you, some of them know they have erected these properties on ground that does not belong to them. Some of them have not even paid properly for them and they sell them for exorbitant prices although they got them only for a bottle of brandy. (Laughter) That is a good policy which states they must stay with us, then if they don't want to stay with us they must quit. They must not be driven away. They will leave of their own accord if they wish. These villages have always been zoned. If a white man feels he does not want to stay with us and wants to go to Durban he can do that because we will not have the money to

buy their properties. Some have already left. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, the motion is about the transfer of towns. Mr NKOSIYANE : I am exactly on that question, Mr Chairman. I am stressing that point because I cannot understand why these towns should be transferred to other people because they have been our towns all the time. (Laughter) I want to explain to you that these towns were established on our ground and they henceforth became our inheritance. We have been very fortunate to have white people come and build houses in our territory. The law says you cannot pull down a property. You must sell it before you go away. There is really no need for us to put forward this motion because we are looking forward to complete independence and when we attain full independence all that is in the Transkei will belong to us. Please don't ask for this transfer because they have already enriched our country. When you discover a beehive all you do is get busy and get the honey. You don't have to punish the bees. You just take the honey. When you find a beehive you just get honey, fill your stomach and leave the bees alive there. God has manifested his love in you in that he has allowed a strange nation to come and improve your place. Whatever you find in the way of improvements they have made here belong to you. There is no need to kill a man who has brought that blessing to you. All you need do is praise him and let him stay, because he will still teach you further. You will get more and more honey. (Laughter) I am going to tell you a little story. We Tembus accepted people from various places and allowed them to settle here under our Chief Dalindyebo. When the Prince of Wales visited the Transkei Dalindyebo donated 70 head of cattle and those cattle were sold and this hospital was erected. Do you think this hospital is going to be moved? Who are the patients there? These villages were built by the strangers who came here. Why do you say the towns must be zoned? They are our villages. Rev G. T. VIKA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the motion as amended . In fact, Mr Chairman, I don't think there is much now to be said on this because a lot of good points have been canvassed in favour of this motion. The motion seeks to rectify an anomaly which was created by the omission of the towns when the Transkei was given self-government, but this operation to rectify this anomaly has been very slow. We started by saying these towns should first be zoned, but now we are speaking of the transfer of the towns and we would like all the towns transferred. Perhaps one might give the reason for the omission of the towns as being the fact that originally the towns were preponderantly white both by ownership and settlement, but I think we should accept the fact that now the position is reversed. There are today in the Transkei more Blacks in these towns than there are Whites. For this reason alone I think the time is long overdue that this ownership should be granted to the Transkeian citizens and these towns should have been already transferred to the Transkeian Government. If in the 19th century and the time before that Blacks were essentially rural dwellers they are now in the 20th century attracted to towns no less than the Whites are. For this, as my second reason, the Transkeian towns should be transferred to the Transkeian Government. Also, we should observe that towns are centres of development. It is in the towns that we get such facilities as electricity

buy his property. Let them stay with us and they will soon find that the people have not enough money to 290

no interim bodies created to take over before the Transkeian Government takes them over. With these few remarks, Mr Chairman, I support this motion as amended. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the motion before the House to my mind should never have come before this House. May it be in its original form or in its amended form, I believe it should never have come before this House. I am saying so, hon. members, because only a few days ago, or a couple of weeks ago, we decided in this House on the principle of independence for the Transkei so that if we had to get the independence in question then virtually we have these towns transferred to the said Transkei. Now, the motion to my mind presupposes that the independence we are expecting will not be independence as it should be. (Interjections) I am only quoting this motion. It is this motion that is not keeping to the point. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, though it has been alleged that he was a high-school debater, did throw light in his remarks to the House and most of the hon. members here, if they were to be truthful, would be aware that even the towns zoned black in the Transkei do not belong to the Transkeian Government. (Interjections) The position is that members have sought to tell us why they want the transfer of these towns . They have mentioned, among other things , strained race relations and other disabilities. Nobody denies that the relations are not strained in those towns, but what is the point in getting these towns transferred to the Transkei when sooner or later you will be getting the transfer you want as an independent Transkei ? Perhaps it would even have made a bit of sense if the mover had asked for the transfer of towns such as Matatiele and Port St. John's which do not belong to the Transkei at the moment. Mr C. DIKO: All right, amend this motion. Mr ZIBI: So, hon. members, we are merely on a merry-go-round. As a matter of fact, if the mover of the motion were aware of the revelations made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, as a man of reason I am sure he would have withdrawn the motion, (Interjections) but some other ninny tried to amend it only to make it worse. My last word is this : Let us look forward to this independence you want, when all these towns will belong to the Transkei. Mr C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the motion here seeks the transfer of all towns in the Transkei to the Transkeian Government. In so far as this motion is concerned there is no need whatsoever for us to talk about the policies of multi-racialism and the policies of non-multi-racialism. The mover of the motion was sane and he clearly put forward his points. The hon. member for Mqanduli is so insane about the security of the white man in the Transkei that ...

and transport amenities. Towns are also ideal for educational centres. The intention of this motion is not to exclude Whites from these towns. It is simply that the administration of the towns should fall under the Transkei Government because they are within the Transkei. Indeed, it would be incongruous for these towns to remain under the Republican Government after indepence. It is also because we are anticipating independence that we would like these towns now to be transferred to the Transkei Government. I should like to make one or two points on the point already made about race relations. If the position in the Transkeian towns is left as it is it will continue to aggravate the question of race relations in these territories. In the past Blacks had to accept that the towns were white places, but today you have a number of blacks, as I have already mentioned, being attracted to towns, more especially in those towns which have already been zoned black. Now, it means that more and more Blacks do experience the injustices that are perpetrated in these towns where you will find one race enjoying privileges which are not enjoyed by the other. It has been stated that there are three groups of Whites who are here in the Transkei. Now I think mostly it is the first group who are remaining in these towns and it has already been stated that it is hoped this group will be protected -- the group that voluntarily, without reservations, accepted the fact that Blacks should be given their self-government in the Transkei. Now, our relationship even with that group will be hindered if the present set-up continues, where you see them enjoying privileges that we do not enjoy. We cannot dissociate every illtreatment that comes to us from the Republican Government from the Whites. It is unfortunate, but if we do not see them trying to help us out of this situation then we cannot but help associating them with the situation. Someone is asking me which situation. The situation whereby we find ourselves not enjoying the same privileges as our white counterparts in the same towns. It is unfortunate that in this day and time we find there are still some Whites who will show us that they are essentially superior to the black man. One would like to see a group of Whites in the Transkei making representations themselves to help us persuade the Republican Government to transfer these towns to the Transkeian Government, but instead you will find a single White remaining in a town which is otherwise black, wanting to wield power indefinitely. Mr K. M. GUZANA : That is your policy. You want him to wield power. GOVT. MEMBERS: No. Rev VIKA: Now, Mr Chairman, as I want to come to the end of my remarks I would like to state that we want to call for the unconditional transfer of these towns to the Transkei before impatience and suspicion overtake us. In fact, I am against this gradual handing over or transfer of these towns. These bodies such as the Transkeian Townships Board should not have been allowed to exist. Why is it always necessary for powers of administration to be handed gradually to us? Why is it necessary that we should always be expected to be trained by someone else? That training you get from a person other than your own? Blacks have their own philosophy of life, they have their own way of doing things. Mr GUZANA: Black Theology? Rev VIKA: You would be lost if I started talking about Black Theology. It is my fervent prayer that when these towns are being transferred there must be

Mr K. M. GUZANA: He must withdraw that. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, in referring to the Leader of the Opposition if you said he is insane you should withdraw that. Mr DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon. members, now I am instructed to withdraw the word "insane", so I withdraw as instructed. Mr GUZANA: That is unparliamentary. He should withdraw it. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr DIKO: Mr Chairman, the hon. member for Engcobo wanted to know why we should accept selfgovernment before the transfer of these towns. Again we could see a lot of idiotic thinking. At the time

291

towns, we are people who buy property in these towns. It happens at Tabankulu, it happens at Umzimkulu, it happens everywhere, but if the administration is onesided there is always an unfair treatment of the black man. We want the black man to feel at home these days, but I want to emphasize the fact that while we want to feel at home we don't want anybody to feel a stranger. We are all ... In so far as I want to put it, and before I put it that way, nobody must anticipate what we shall do, what policies we shall adopt when we get independence. Why presuppose that when we get independence, therefore, we shall be bosses over the white man in this country? (Interjections) Where do you get that idea? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr DIKO: We shall all be sons of the Transkei, white, black and yellow. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : What about brown? Mr DIKO: Even brown. Indians will not be allowed in the administration when we get independence . That I want you to be sure of. Mr K. M. GUZANA: What did the Indians do to you? Mr DIKO: Now, Mr Chairman, I have no quarrel whatsoever with the Indians, but I know that in spite of the fact that we have doctors, lawyers, teachers, these will always be outwitted in business by the Indians. So for self-preservation we must make it very clear that the Indians will take a hundred years before they are provided for in the Transkei. Mr GUZANA: Come back to the motion. Mr DIKO: I am on the motion now. Now, you are insane and I don't want insane people here. There is no home for insanity here. (Laughter) So we want the Cabinet of the Transkei to make a recommendation, though all the time these villages and towns have been administered through the village management boards and municipalities by the Provincial Administration, I say these towns must now be ruled by our Government of the Transkei . You see, your trouble is you are static, hon. member for Mqanduli and Ncambedlana. (Laughter) Your way of thinking you are always behind the times. You don't know how to be a politician and statesman. When the time comes for change you must change. You must have principles and must adapt to the situation. Now, all I want to say is that the idea of transferring these towns and villages must be hastened. We want them immediately and the Government must make these recommendations to the Republican Government. We admire the mover of the motion and in his reply he must try and educate these people. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 2nd May 1974.

of the inception of self-government virtually every town was owned by the Whites and the policy was to gradually acquire these erven which belonged to the Whites for the black man. There is a provision for the gradual acquisition of land for the Blacks in the Transkei where it is owned by the white man. It is only just and fair that when that land has been acquired in three-quarters of these towns, then the administration therefore must be transferred to the Transkeian Government. Now, I emphasize that for the education of the hon. member. Now, there is one other thing which we must observe. This motion has nothing to do with the treatment of the Whites after transfer, so what insanity it is to talk about the treatment of the Whites, and who seeks to see an underlying motive in the transfer of our land? As the hon. member, Mr Nkosiyane, said, this is our land and it must be eventually transferred to us with no underlying motive whatsoever. There is no intention in the motion either of mistreating the Whites, and therefore I don't want anybody to think of illtreatment of anybody. It doesn't matter who dragged in this foolish argument of Whites and Blacks illtreating each other, because some insanity has been brought in. The hon. member for Mount Fletcher quoted "mfundis" who were saying that. There is no "mfundi" saying that. He was only answering your leader. It is your leader who is concerned about the security of the Whites in this Transkei and must assure the white man their security is not at stake. Now, if a white man in this Transkei is going to feel insecure it is because of his own conception. A white man who hates a black man will reap the seeds that he sowed and when he reaps what he sowed that is not our business. Anyone who sows the seeds of hatred will one day reap, so what we are concerned with and what we are requesting from the Republican Government is the transfer of the towns. I want the hon. members of the Opposition to emphatically say they refuse the transfer, from the first speaker of the Opposition to the last one who was wallowing around with no facts and no preparation. They don't tell us they don't want the transfer. He makes a silly point, and if not silly then very much foolish. (Laughter) He says we have asked for independence, so why ask for the towns as they will eventually be ours when independence comes. Honestly, I want hon. members in this House to be sincere statesmen and politicians. Independence may come after two years, perhaps after five years. Meantime we want these towns and villages to be administered through the Government of the Transkei . Now, perhaps we must give you some of the reasons why we say so, hon. member for Mqanduli, my learned friend. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, he is making untruthful utterances. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is no point of order. CHAIRMAN: Order. Please continue. Mr DIKO: Now, what people will hate the idea that when these towns, be they municipalities or Townships Board - now, what is wrong in these being administered by the Africans or the black man? What is your objection? What are you making this noise for? What is your complaint? Let us be united in asking for the transfer of these towns. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : It must be legalized . Mr DIKO: What we want is the transfer so that the administration must pass through the Government of the Transkei. Now he is talking about legality while he is sitting down, and we are legal enough in this Assembly. One of the reasons why we want these

THURSDAY, 2nd MAY 1974 Prayers were read. MINUTES CHIEF MDANJELWA MTIRARA: Mr Chairman, there is a mistake here as far as the division list is concerned. When the division took place the hon. Chief G. M. Mabandla was not on the other side. My objection is to the fact that he was not in the House when the division took place but his name is included in the list. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, in accordance with the list that was forwarded by the tellers Chief Mabandla was in the "Ayes" group. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

292

NOTICES OF MOTION Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I wish to request you to waive the rules in order to allow me to move a very urgent motion some time today or soon thereafter. CHAIRMAN: Could the hon. member please indicate as to the urgency of this motion? Mr PAMLA : Mr Chairman, the motion deals with education as well as the control of educational establishments in the Transkei. CHAIRMAN: I think it would be pertinent for the hon. member just to give notice of motion. It will be for the business committee to see to the precedence as far as motions are concerned as to whether it shall be given first preference or not. Mr PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I move that the motion be given first preference. CHAIRMAN: You must give notice of motion. Mr PAMLA: I give notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of expropriating and paying of reasonable compensation to all mission hostels and classrooms presently under the control of the various churches." GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING

tions. You will note that the proposed amendment makes provision for the appointment of a magistrate to act in an advisory capacity on the Central Board. Mr Chairman and hon. members, taking into consideration that the amended clauses will be common to the Transkei I have no doubt that this bill will receive the whole-hearted support of all members of this House, especially that of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and his following. I therefore move that the bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr Chairman, as this bill is very short I now move that the rules of this House be waived and that the bill be dealt with in the committee stage. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. CHAIRMAN: I will suggest that the bill be dealt with tomorrow morning as the Deputy Chairman is away at present. MINISTER OF ROADS: I agree, Mr Chairman. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF ROADS : The committee stage will therefore be tomorrow, Mr Chairman. FOREST AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING

MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a certified copy of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Amendment Bill and move that the bill be now read a first time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second . Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, the date for the second reading will be Friday, 3rd May, or so soon thereafter.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the Forest Bill has been on the law books for some five years now and small things are needed to modernize certain clauses. In the first instance it is necessary to substitute metric units for imperial units of measurement wherever it is necessary. Secondly, the opportunity is being taken to simplify the procedure in connection with the calculation of the volume of timber. Thirdly, the botanical names of certain trees in the principal Act are being changed as a result of an international reclassification and it is therefore necessary to substitute certain new names for those used hitherto. The common names remain unchanged and, Mr Chairman, I consider that it is not necessary to enter into the details on this matter as the intention is to effect necessary changes. I move that the bill now be read a second time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, these amendments are here to amend Acts that are already in operation. Mr H. PAMLA: What else does an amendment mean? Mr ZIBI : I don't make such interference when other people are speaking, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr ZIBI: The position is that we have got to consider the people of the Transkei, that is, I am referring to the educational standard of our populace. There are botanical terms here and one wonders what the hon. Minister intends doing about driving it home to the ordinary citizen of the Transkei . He is amending an Act for the people who know nothing about the Act as an Act, and my worry then is what is going to be done to drive home the meanings of all these botanical words . I appreciate, of course, the fact that we in our Xhosa language haven't the terminology to drive home the meanings of these botanical terms. Otherwise we appreciate the change, as it is in keeping with the times. It was just that observation I wanted to bring forward, Mr Chairman. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I

APPRENTICESHIP BILL : FIRST READING MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a certified copy of the Transkeian Apprenticeship Bill. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkeian Constitution Act 1963, I table a recommendation by the hon. the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128(b) of the rules of procedure that the bill be considered by the Assembly. I move that the bill be now read a first time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The second reading will be on Tuesday, 7th May, Mr Chairman, or so soon thereafter. MOTOR CARRIER TRANSPORTATION AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr Chairman and hon. members, you will recall that during the 1972 Legislative Assembly session the above Act, which was based solely on the South African Act, was passed by this Assembly. Now, Mr Chairman, I want to propose the amendment of section 2 of the principal Act in which no provision was made for the appointment of a person with law qualifications as a member of the Central Transportation Board. As this Board is the final instance to which an applicant for a transportation permit can appeal, it is advisable to have a member serving on this Board who is in possession of law qualifica-

293

in doubt in the same way as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I would like to quote again from the Daily News of 2nd April 1974 : "Transkei free in five years - so says Vorster. The Prime Minister told more than 700 Nationalists in the Heidelberg Town Hall last night that the Transkei could become totally independent within the next few years. This is the first time since the Nationalist policy of separate development was first formulated that a Prime Minister, or for that matter a Cabinet Minister, has publicly made an independence commitment for a homeland giving a specific period of time. Mr Vorster is quoted as having said: 'We said time and time again over the years that the homelands would have independence if they wanted it. The Transkei have now said that they want to negotiate. I will negotiate with them and it is logical to expect that the Transkei will become independent within the next five years." Then the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was at pains to question this House as to what would happen to the white persons in the Transkei - that, in the towns within the Transkei. I think their position is made clear by the Minister of Bantu Administration, Mr M. C. Botha, and I think their position was made clear by the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei when he spoke to the motion of independence. The Chief Minister said if the white people want to stay in the Transkei they can do so, provided they are prepared to subject themselves to the rule of the Black Government of the Transkei . He further said we would stay with them and even teach the Republic of South Africa a lesson that the Blacks and Whites can stay together. Mr M. C. Botha is reported in the Daily Dispatch of 1st May 1974 as having said (the heading is: "Bantustans Whites warned on Citizenship") : "Whites who chose to stay in independent Bantustans would lose their South African citizenship, the Minister of Bantu Adiministration and Development, Mr M. C. Botha, said yesterday. He was addressing the Transvaal Congress of the Nationalist Party here yesterday (that was on 30th April). He said the South African Government would not accept responsibility for Whites in independent Bantustans and would not buy them out when things got hot for them." (Laughter) I think, therefore, the position of the Whites in the Transkei has been succinctly put by the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei as well as by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, echoed by that stocky parrot from Mount Fletcher, asked as to why we asked for the transfer of the towns in the Transkei since when the Transkei gets independence then the towns would automatically fall within the Transkei. I honestly fail to understand the logic of that argument. We know that Port St. John's is historically and geographically within the Transkei. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: And how without? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Howlers will howl and speakers will speak. We know that Matatiele, we know that Uzimkulu are historically and geographically within the Transkei; but supposing the Transkei gets independence without these towns being transferred to the Government of the Transkei, how do they automatically become part of the Transkei. (Interjections) In any even this shows the inconsistency of the thinking of hon. members across the floor. A few days ago a motion seeking the transfer of all the police stations within the Transkei to the Transkeian Government was adopted . Why didn't the hon. members across the floor advance the same argument namely, that

propose that Monday, 6th May, be the day for the committee stage . TRANSFER OF ALL TRANSKEIAN TOWNS TO TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT The debate was resumed. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that the hon. members across the floor have let out enough steam that they are now short of it, I shall continue with the discussion of this motion. It is a great pity that at a time when we have agreed on a motion seeking to request the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei we should drag in the humdrum of political ideologies. The pity becomes even greater when the Leader of the Opposition becomes the precentor in this political discord, but those of us who have been members of this Assembly from the days of the inception of self-government are not surprised that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has adopted the attitude he did on a very important motion. When the idea of zoning of the towns was first mooted the hon. the Leader of the Opposition fought tooth and nail against such an action. He even went so far as to call it a pipe dream. But the most surprising part of it is that when the Transkei seeks more land in the Transkei, as is sought in the motion before us, the members of the Opposition are always ready to fight against such a move and say they want the rest of South Africa. They don't want land in the Transkei but they want the rest of South Africa. Mr J. M. DUMALISILE: We want the land in the Transkei as well as in South Africa. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If the hon. member for Willowvale says he wants land in the Transkei as well as in the Republic you should first of all support us when we say we want land in the Transkei. I am always intrigued by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that whenever the Government of the Transkei seeks anything, especially land, he always imputes sinister motives as far as the Government of the Transkei is concerned . I would like to assure him that what the Government of the Transkei needs is the land it needs, and nothing more. Mr K. M. GUZANA: That is the assurance of a crocodile.

...

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I remember when we said we needed more land in the Transkei, and when the Opposition retorted that they needed the whole of South Africa we told them that there were other racial groups in the Republic who would need and make demands for it. I am very glad that in the Daily News of 30th April 1974 there is a report of the big land claims made by the other Bantustans in the Republic of South Africa. I have an article here:- "Threat to the Transvaal Blacks Huge Land Claims. The Lebowa Government is claiming more than one third of the Transvaal, including 20 towns, scores of villages and many mines, including Phalaborwa and Cullinan, hundreds of white farms and the southern half of the Kruger National Park." That teaches you hon. members across the floor to concern yourselves with the land claims in the Transkei and allow the other Bantustan leaders to make claims to the lands that originally belonged to them. What surprised me yesterday was when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said "if" the Transkei gets its independence, and he said he was underlining “if”. I don't think I will be wrong if I presume that the “if” was intended to show a doubt in his mind that the Transkei will ever get independence. To those who are

294

Act is clear on this matter and thorough observation will reveal that in clause 2(a) to (i) of Part 1 of the Act there is a deliberate attempt to prevent the falling of Whites in the towns under black rule, hence the towns are administered by the Provincial Administration and/or Pretoria through the Townships Boards which are administrative bodies instituted by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. The fact of the matter is that Whites, particularly in the Transkei, will not suffer the humiliation of falling under the jurisdiction of a Black Government as if, if I may speak as a disciple of Darwin, they are the descendants of a super monkey other than the ordinary monkey, which was Adam. (Laughter) Agree hon. members, when I say the Whites in the big cities of the Republic are more humanely inclined towards the Blacks than are the Whites in the small insignificant towns like Matatiele and Umtata. The disillusioning fact that those towns are legally not ours up to this moment, after ten years of self-rule, should not be viewed with impatience and dismay by hon. members, for what did the hon. members expect from a Department of Bantu Administration whose policy is founded on the advice of strong protagonists of the "Divide and Rule" doctrine? One of the white hero-worshipped protagonists of separate development, Dr Eiselen, then Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development, wrote: "The utmost degree of autonomy which the Union Parliament is likely to be prepared to concede to those areas will stop short of actual surrender of sovereignty by the European trustees. There is therefore no prospect of a federal system with eventual equality among members . The maintenance of white political supremacy over the country as a whole is a sine qua non for racial peace and economic prosperity in Southern Africa." If hon. members took Pretoria's word seriously then they are in great danger of frustration, but if they have kept these policy words by the Secretary of a Department they must accept that they are a "bundu" government and keep on talking of the transfer of the towns .

when the Transkei gets independence all the police stations would automatically fall within the Transkei ? Instead, they all ad anum supported that motion. In any event the asking for the transfer of these towns to the Transkeian Government is intended to be a completion of a chain of processes which took place from the time we got self-government in the Transkei . The towns had to be first zoned, they had to be taken over, then the land is now being requested to be transferred to the Transkeian Government from the Provincial Administration. Independece may come in about two, three or four years, and all the members here know what sufferings are endured by our people in these towns and villages. The people of the Transkei have always looked to the Government of the Transkei for the amelioration of their hardships, and, of course, the Transkeian Government can do nothing because it has no control over the towns and villages of the Transkei. Now, some ignoraImus said these towns should have been taken over when the Transkei got self-government. It is some of these people who were Rip van Winkels at the time we got self-government who do not know that the very land of the Transkei in 1963 up to 1966 was under the South African Bantu Trust and did not belong to the Government of the Transkei and its people. It was through negotiations that the land in the Transkei was transferred to the Transkeian Government in 1966, but in any event the Republican Government could never have offered the bill of buying out all the properties in all the towns in the Transkei at the same time. The properties had to be bought piecemeal and the process has now gone so far that we have no doubt that these remaining properties can be bought. I could not understand the argument of the hon. member from Mqanduli, the hon. Mr Ntabayitshi Nkosiyane, and of course he has got to be excused because where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise. (Laughter) He even said there was no need to have these towns transferred to the Transkeian Government because they are our towns. He spoke of the great Paramount Chief of the Tembus. Yes the great Paramount Chief of the Tembus gave the land to the white people to build the towns of Tembuland, and that did not entitle him or his tribe to say that those were his towns automatically, so, hon. member for Mqanduli , we must distinguish between those things we can say to the Tembu tribesmen at beer drinks and those things we can say in this House. (Laughter) The hon. the Leader of the Opposition yesterday said that we must avoid discussing those matters which might have a bad taste as far as the Republic of South Africa is concerned. I agree with him, and I concede that fact, but in the motion under discussion I do not see what can be construed as being likely to have a bad taste as far as the Republic of South Africa is concerned, because what we ask for is the fulfilment of the policy of the Republican Government, and, as I have pointed out and quoted, I am glad that the other homelands are also asking for the control over some of the towns in the Republic. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition spoke about maintaining good race relations. I agree with him, but I refuse to agree with him if the maintenance of good relations will be at the disadvantage of the black man and at the advantage of the white man. GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, these towns which are geographically within the Transkei are still administered in the Republic after a tedious period of ten years. The Transkei Constitution

Nevertheless, Mr Chairman, as I have not the honour of access to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development I will endeavour in earnest to transmit to him through the constitutional channel of this House my idea of these towns in order to rescue him from the misadvice of his constitutional advisers a misadvice that has given birth to an administrative crisis. I wish, hon. members, not to lose a day in this urgent and pressing crisis. An hour now lost in allaying ferments in these towns may produce years of calamity. For my own part I will not desert for a moment the conduct of this weighty business from the first to the last, unless nailed to my bed by the extremity of sickness. I will knock at the door of this sleeping and counfounded Ministry and will rouse them to a sense of their important danger. When I speak about the importance of these towns to the Transkei and the magnitude of the danger hanging over South Africa from the present plan of misadministration practised against thousands of Blacks only, I desire not to be understood to argue for a reciprocity of indulgence between the Transkei and the Republic. Mr Chairman, I contend not for indulgence but for justice to the Transkei . Before I come to the danger itself and the means whereby it can be eliminated, I wish to analyse the causes thereof. I have referred to the crisis born of maladministration of these towns of which the motion seeks their transfer. Mr Chairman, Pretoria does well to remember that

295

Umtata, including Ngangelizwe. When the Whites stayed in Norwood the Municipality never failed to keep the place in a high degree of public cleanliness. Now that Norwood is a black residential zone the Umtata Municipality has fallen into lethargy. The removal of refuse and stercus is regrettably insufficient. Some of the toilet buckets are sometimes left in the streets in full view of the public as if there was some glory in the violation of the principles of hygiene and public decency. Grass over there is left to grow to the extent of sheltering both human and animal adders and lizards. In the streets the man who removes litter and paper wastage is seen once in a blue moon. Green pools of water remain in the streets as if there is not enough heat from heaven to dry them up. This is what you find in Umtata. Go to any Transkeian town administered by municipalities and you will find, or you are exposed to this similar dehumanizing treatment by Whites. Everywhere the fundamental grievance is the white man's prejudiced administration of these towns. Townships Boards have their own faults. I cannot mention them here. This is my analysis of the administrative crisis. The danger which I mentioned earlier is that the African in the Transkeian towns is becoming increasingly convinced that the white man is a colonialist ever and therefore an exploiter and bloodsucker. To Pretoria I wish to say the inevitable consequences of allowing indirect representation to continue in these areas and of vesting the administration not in the people themselves, such consequences can be seen in the steps of the British American colonies. They are also to be seen in the grievances of the Voortrekkers themselves, whose descendants the Pretoria Whites are. While we in the Transkei will not follow the Voortrekkers' example, I wish to indicate the dissatisfaction of the Africans in these towns with the fact that they have no claim to them. It is not merely the question of good administration and management. The fundamental question is when they will be transferred to us, for once they are ours the other problems will fall away by themselves. With these words I support the motion and I close with conjuring this House to persevere in their present course. Let us ask for the transfer of what is ours, then we will know where we stand. Thank you, Sir. CHAIRMAN : I think this motion has now been thoroughly canvassed and I call upon the mover to reply. Mr W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, apparently there is not much to which I am expected to reply. The little that was there has been sufficiently disposed of by the speakers on this side of the House, but in appreciating the golden silence this morning from the opposite benches, I shall certainly be very brief. In passing there will be no harm if I refer myself to a few remarks made yesterday, certainly out of ignorance, jealousy or mischievousness. I listened with absorbing interest when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition decided to arrogate to himself the position of father of this House, safeguarding the children from the fire, and I was sorry when he stopped short and didn't go further to say that his children had in the past ten years outgrown him. (Laughter) You see a father who watches for ten years, being outstripped by the children without knowing why, watching his castle of ambition crumbling and crashing down, tumbling down to the dust, (Laughter) while his erstwhile followers change into a bunch of parrotlike adherents. My motion seeks the control over the towns in the Transkei without prejudice to anybody irrespective of colour

misadministration is caused among other things by indirect representation which we see when one man administers on behalf of another. In South Africa we have a wide reference on this score. It happened when Professor Molteno and Mrs Ballinger, who were budding multi-racialists and hard fighters for African rights, represented in Cape Town. Their strong representation did not stop the urgent African call for direct African representation. This fact is not unknown to Pretoria. Only yesterday did an indirect representation by a white Bantu labour officer of African needs in the Industrial Council result in labour unrest in Durban. We also witness this anomalous situation of indirect representation in the administrative machinery of these towns - that is, the municipalities running these towns. For sentimental reasons I wink at the Townships Boards and hasten to the municipal and village management board aspect of the crisis, and on that I shall leave no stone unturned. We speak about the need to leave these pinpricks, these thorny questions and sensitive areas and not to irritate them lest they disturb peaceful relations between Blacks and Whites. Who has been and is responsible for the tense race relations in this country of South Africa. It is the white man. GOVT. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr LUDIDI : In those our towns, run by municipalities, the white man harms human relationships by constantly neglecting African needs and no fool does not know this. In my analysis I shall always refer to the Umtata Municipality in order to deal quite extensively with my subject. Umtata Municipality affords a good specimen for my analysis. The town, right in the heart of the Transkei and supposed to be our capital town, has more Blacks than Whites, but poor Africans have been denied franchise rights so as to be elected to the Town Council. Yet these Blacks are ratepayers no less than the Whites are. However, because they have no say in the administrative machinery of the Munuicipality of Umtata, Africans must suffer from bitter hazards of misadministration of a municipality whose councillors were elected by an insignificant minority of an ethnic group, so few and small numbers to deserve to be called Umtata Municipality. The examples of misadministration of the Umtata Municipality are too numerous for me to mention for you hon. members . The hon. member for Engcobo asks me to look up and speak. I want to tell you that when I prepare a speech I prepare it and I want to speak perfectly. I will not stand and speak just from my mind. Mr K. M. GUZANA: May we come back to the motion, please. Mr LUDIDI: As I said, these examples are too numerous for me to mention. Let us take the large number of highly educated African ratepayers . There are doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers, artisans and traders, all of whom are educated according to their stations in life, yet the Umtata Municipality cares not a whit to provide library facilities for them , to say nothing of the negligent limb of the Municipality called the Electricity Department. Go to Norwood in the dead of night, or in the evening for that matter. Some of the street lights ceased to function the day Whites gave up their residence in Norwood. The street lighting on the old Umtata Bridge is so neglected it is as if it had never existed As a result of this punishable and unforgivable neglect by the Electricity Department of the Umtata Municipality, that spot plus the area near Jabulani and in the vicinity of the taxi rank are notorious for the death of many African citizens. Then I think of cleansing in the black zones of

296

or creed. Our starting point had been since before we were born separate development, and we are not to blame for that position, and if it had been a monologue from Pretoria all the time then separate development provided a platform for dialogue. Over these past ten years no-one in his sane senses will say it has been lip service, when twelve out of nineteen towns have been handed over to the management of the black people. It is at this stage I feel compelled to congratulate the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkeian Government for his skill in using an impossible weapon of separate development to place us where we are today. His tact, his diplomacy and strategy have been so successful that today we are hopeful of rounding the corner and gaining independence. With the declaration of independence then we can say we possess something in the Transkei and it will be only from that point that we will be able to say whether we can accommodate all these different groups of people. The hue and cry from the other tables was that we were trying to monopolize against the white people and we have listened to some remarks, especially when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition tried to ridicule the hon. member for Umzimkulu that he had no white friends. On this side of the House we can justifiably claim a larger number of white friends than anybody else elsewhere, with this exception, of course, that we don't dance to their tune. We let them know the policy of this country and tell them our policy will be forthcoming with the declaration of independence. Another hon. member asked why it was necessary to introduce this motion at this time. The reason is to give ample time for everybody concerned to make up his mind. Those white people who are not prepared to assist in the development of the Transkei will arrange in good time. The fence-sitters will have sufficient time also to make a decision and, of course, the legislation concerning the transfer of these towns will follow a very circuitous route because they are administered by the Provincial Administration. We have to request Pretoria and when they have consulted with the Provincial Administration they will come back to us. The hon. member for Engcobo tried to say there was no need to make a change in a principle. That reminded me of what the British veteran politician Churchill said about a change in tactics, though not in principle. He said that seven days was too long a period to harp on the same tactic, and this hon. member will expect us to do the same. I regard him as that bearded boisterous boy blundering between reasonable speeches from this side. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I request this House to join us in saying this motion should be adopted.

and think it my duty to disburden myself of them before, and expose them for the serious consideration of, this House. I think of the hideous injustice meted out to our people in the urban areas when they have hoarded enough and want to embark on business undertakings. Let us assume you are an African in one of the urban cities. You go to the local authorities to apply for a hawker's licence or a trader's licence and the interviewing officer draws your life file from the registration office. On paging through it he lifts up his head to tell you that you only qualify in terms of section 10(c) of the Urban Areas Act and that you cannot be allowed to start a business in the Bantu townships in the Republic. The last thing he tells you is that you should go to the homelands where there is room for you to embark on business and adds with a sinister look that in the homelands the sky is the limit. I think of the trade irregularity prevalent in South Africa, witnessed when there is an exodus of Whites, particularly Greeks, from Huguenot to the Transkei to start businesses in the white-zoned areas of the Transkei. I think of the alleged favouritism of the white magistrate in the towns zoned black and white, which favouritism is experienced every now and then by African businessmen. It is alleged that when a white business site becomes vacant and applications and objections are called for, the advertised business in most cases falls into the hands of the white applicant, as if there had been no African applicants. Then, Mr Chairman, I am of the opinion that this is what usually happens when a man of a different racial group in a racially-ridden atmosphere occupies the key position. He tends to look after the interests of his own race. Anyway, no man who knows human nature can blame these officials, for blood is thicker than water. Then as a result of the alleged magistrate's colour bar, I think of the number of Whites who remain in these black zones or who enter the black zone in the name of trade. The position is this : White traders may remain in the black zone as long as they have not decided to get out, but when they decide to sell their businesses, each business should be taken over by an African. You can see, hon. members, the idea is a good one in that the African takeover of businesses in the black zones is affected in a non-revolutionary or systematic way and not in a revolutionary way of Africanization, but it would appear that the magistrates or the Bantu Administration officials in Pretoria abuse this fine idea behind the smooth Africanization of the businesses in the black zones. Contrast this situation with what I said earlier. In the urban cities business-inclined Blacks will not remain there as long as they choose. Quite often conditions are made to harass them to quit voluntarily, or should any African be caught contravening any local business regulations the municipal labour officer or the Bantu Affairs Administration Board labour officer grabs his passbook, endorses in it the stamp of repatriation, and to crown it all, throws it into his face in a most contemptous manner. Mr Chairman, the whole question boils down to the fact that Blacks are given no business chances in the black townships of the Republic and Whites enjoy in the black zones of the towns of the Transkei what Blacks are denied in Bantu townships. Sometimes a white businessman who decides to give up his business won't sell it. He simply fetches one of his poverty-stricken fellow-Whites from the Republic to carry on business in his name in the black zone, so the white business undertakings in the black zones merely exchange white hands. Then I question the purpose of the black zones. Then, Mr Chairman, I think also of the restrictions heavy on the black trader. He is con-

Motion as amended put and carried. The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION ZONING OF CERTAIN TOWNS COMPLETELY BLACK Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to declare the municipal areas of Butterworth, Idutywa, Umtata and Umzimkulu totally black in order to allow free trade competition in the business areas of these towns." Mr Chairman, when I consider the affair of the black and white zoned towns in the Transkei as expressed in the past in this House, and now again the subject before the deliberation of this House, I find my mind crowded by a variety of melancholy thoughts 297

Transkei with the cream, or where business tends to flourish. That also will give us strong African traders whom we know are here, because they are Transkeians and will be able to contribute to the Transkeian economy. I do not imply that foreign traders work to do down a country's economy, but in the Transkei white the trade stinks of bloodsucking and exploitation

fined to the black zone. I remember the said incident of a certain African professional of note who applied for offices in the Umtata Old Mutual building. The proprietors of the building had agreed to let the offices to him but the Umtata Municipality objected very strongly on the grounds that he was a Black and the offices were situate in the white zone. The same Municipality which is notorious for neglecting the needs of African ratepayers - no library facilities, dusty and muddy streets, ugly soulless conglomeration of stinking hovels which are supposed to be dwellinghouses in Ngangelizwe, donga-ridden roads in Ngangelizwe Township, irregular removal of refuse and stercus - the same

exploitation of the Transkeian financial resources, for Greeks hoard the money made from the African customer and when they feel they have made enough from the African they go back to the glorious city of Athens. With these words, Mr Chairman, I move. Mr W. Z. LUFUFENI : I second, Mr Chairman. Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this side of the House does not intend introducing any counter motion in the jigsaw puzzle of this hon. member's speech. I elect to speak in Xhosa this time because the hon. members opposite are unable to understand our English. It is not because they cannot understand English thoroughly, but because their brains are at the bottom of the pit. This can easily be observed if you manage to extract some sense from the words of the mover, where he alleges that these black zones are similar to concentration camps. This implies that although he is still a new member of this House and I don't want to give a detailed analysis of him, it is clear what he is. We have often reminded you that these released areas are indeed concentration camps, in as much as a youngster believes that the horizon is the edge of the world . He speaks of the releasing of these towns mentioned in the motion and he proposes that there should be free trade competition for everyone. I fail to understand whether he realises that his motion means multi-racialism. Our side of the House, whatever tricks you employ, will not be a partner to separate development. As far as trading is concerned, and as far as free competition is concerned, we find that even here in Umtata there are white traders and black traders and it is the same in Butterworth and Idutywa. Which town do you imagine has no free competition, in Umtata, Butterworth and Idutywa? The hon. member for Umzimkulu says there are no black traders in Umzimkulu. There would have been no black trader in Idutywa either if people had no money. We have been governing this country for ten years and this is the Government which agreed to the zoning of towns. When you consented to these villages being zoned it was because you wanted the races separated - the black people one side and the Whites on the other. You have mentioned there are Greeks here who have recently come to trade. They were admitted by you. Why did you allow them to come and trade? The mover of this motion lays the blame on Pretoria. What has Pretoria to do with the affairs of the Transkei if you are a genuine Government? We have long told you that there should be equal facilities in all the towns, not only in Butterworth, Idutywa and so on. We on this side of the House know that most of these properties at the moment are under the control of the Bantu Trust. Who do you think must release them and hand them over to you? Who has stopped you from trading in York Road? Who has obstructed you from trading in Idutywa where people like Sobuza are already trading? Who has obstructed you from trading in Butterworth where Mayekiso is trading at the moment? One of the hon. members here has a mortuary where he keeps dead bodies. (Laughter) What is the stumbling-block against anyone who wants to start a business is a man's pocket. We would have supported your motion if the towns were open everywhere. The beautiful phraseology and wonderful terminology of your English only reveals to

Municipality does not object in any way to the white man's occupation of black businesses in the black zone. Mr Chairman, I think of the discrepancy prevalent in the South African business world for which job reservation and other apartheid laws are responsible ― the discrepancy of the bulk of South African capital being controlled to circulate among the Whites only, so that you had the unhappy situation of black businessmen without enough capital to start businesses . The black people who aspire to business cannot go to the banks for overdrafts. They are not accorded credit facilities , yet white business aspirants who were born with silver spoons in their mouths and who enjoy these facilities are allowed, sometimes against the law, to remain in the black zones or to enter them, Then I think of the inevitable imbalance in trade in these towns which are zoned black and white. Africans find it difficult to compete with these white traders. We do well to remember that Whites, especially the new Greek petty bourgeoisie, have a tendency to form strong combinations against the African businessman. Mr Chairman, these are the melancholy thoughts that crowd my mind until it ceases to function properly. It ceases to function once I remember that Africans in the Republic are not free to carry on businesses. Now in the homeland, a little world mostly barren to which the African is banished, in that very place he is given scanty chances to trade. No wonder some of the local African businessmen have their business acumen killed. These scanty chances enlist the popular African belief that the homelands are models of concentration camps, and these ideas have to be taken seriously because they are not my ideas. They are the ideas of the people outside this House. Traders are the backbone of any country. We know the truth of this fact. Let us turn to the South African economy itself. One of the main reasons for the dismal failure of efflux control laws that is, the laws aimed at reducing the number of Blacks in the prescribed areas is the backlog formed by the industrialists or commercialists. To indicate the importance and influence of businessmen in any country, I wish to quote you an incident which took place in the Republic of South Africa. Last year or the year before last there was a conflict between the Republican Government and the South African business magnate by the name of Mr Oppenheimer. He had defied the authoirty of Bantu Administration by threatening to treat his African employees in a humane manner. Though the Republican Government made hollow threats to him, his pressure was keenly felt in government circles and, hon. members, find your own answer to who won the political dwarf or the gigantic economist. In short, Mr Chairman, traders ― whether commercial or industrial — influence the destiny of any country and give it a rôle in world politics. So it is imperative that these towns mentioned in the motion should be zoned completely black. That will allow free trade competition to them as they are the only towns thus far in the 298

us where you come from. Let us get down to solid facts. Just because the bag you carry on your shoulder is heavy you want to pass it on to someone else. Mr C. DIKO : Which bag is that? Mr DUMALISILE : The onerous, heavy bag of separate development, hon. Christian minister. (Laughter) What we object to, Mr Chairman, is being dragged into separate development. We are not blind and we are not going to be dragged into separate development. All you have said emanated from this side of the House. You come to this House because you are a timid man. You fear our ideas and that is why you come in big numbers, so that you can rely on the preponderance of your vote. When you lift up your hands against us you come back and propose our own motions. I don't want to take too much of your time, Mr Chairman, but I have warned you, my people. When I look at you I feel very sympathetic. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, they are all shivering. Mr B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, there are several towns here in the Transkei which have already been zoned black and there are a few remaining villages which we are now trying to have zoned black. The policy we follow indicates that in due course all the towns of the Transkei will be released for black occupation and for free trade enterprise therein. We are now aware of the fact that the time has come when all these towns and villages in the Transkei should be zoned for black occupation entirely. We have appreciated the progress made in these zoned towns by the black traders. Mr Chairman, trade competition between Black and White is absolutely necessary. The man who proposed that we must not live together in this country was a very clever man. The white people do not like the black man, neither are they prepared to live side by side with a black man. They are not even prepared to stay side by side with the hon. member for Willowvale. The towns and villages we have just mentioned have given our people a lot of trouble and hardship. The towns I have just mentioned are ruled by municipal officials who are white people and they are in those areas. Furthermore, when this zoning is taken into consideration these white people who are the rulers of these municipalities usually select the poorest section of the village which will have scanty business and hand it over to the black people, leaving the best part of the village for themselves where business will prosper. You will then find that the white people ignore completely the portion zoned for the black people and pay attention only to the part of the village zoned for their occupation. That is why we mention that we do not have free trade in the towns which are zoned, because they put their interest foremost. What these white people in the zoned areas do is to keep on persecuting the people there, and the police run up and down from sunrise to sunset trying to make the lives of the people there unbearable. The conditions under which we black people trade are entirely different from conditions when they started trading in the infancy of their business life. If conditions similar to the conditions under which we now suffer as black people were meted out to the white people when they arrived in this country, they would never have attained the stage at which they have arrived now. They are now quite certain that as long as the white man oppresses the black man in the manner in which he is oppressed now, the black man will never move an inch. If the white people were prepared to live side by side with us it is now the time they could show their willingness to assist the black man attain independence in an easy way. If the white people persist in their attitude I think the best thing for them

to do is to leave the Transkei altogether. Let us take the village of Lusikisiki, which is completely black. Al though this village is completely black you will still find the police station is under the control of the white people. One of the duties of this white man at least the duty he thinks is paramount - is to run up and down persecuting the black people. I must mention further that in all the villages zoned for black and white occupation you still find the white man predominating, unlike those villages which are zoned completely black. I want to know what interest the Opposition side has in protecting a white man. Have they been given an inducement of some sort to protect the interests of the white people? Have they come into this House to represent the interests of the white man or have they come to look after the interests of the black people? I challenge that one hon. member of the Opposition to stand up and tell us if he ever heard anyone on the Government side say he detests the white man. Don't the hon. members opposite realise that as we are assembled in this House we are following the policy of separate development? If they are not prepared to follow the policy of separate development why do they not walk out of this House? For the last ten years the Opposition party has been constantly trying to defend the white man so that he should remain in the Transkei. They want the white man to remain in the Transkei and enjoy the same privileges as we do in the Transkei, whereas the white man has his own rights in the Republic. If the Opposition members would like us to occupy the whole of the Republic, is it a fact that we are the only black state in the Republic? Do the Vendas and Zulus support them in their ideas, as well as the white people? I suggest that we remain in our portion of the country and improve this place. The Shangaans will see to the improvement of their country and likewise the Zulus. I would never like to go and dwell among the Ndebeles because I don't know their language. I would be a complete stranger there. We shall not be able to go into self-government if we still mix with white people. The intention of the white man is to continually oppress a black man. Even now, as we are supposed to be governing ourselves, the white man still persists in oppressing the black man. We only require the presence of the white man solely as an agent. The white people must leave and abandon those towns which we want to be declared black. Mr Chairman, I would be pleased if these hon. members would stop heckling me. I am trying to solicit protection from the Chair because all I say is not my opinion but the feelings of the people I represent in this House. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. There is continual murmuring down there. Mr VAPI : Take for instance a trip to Nigeria or Malawi. If you go to those countries you will discover that the black people in those places are free because they have been given free enterprise and as a result they have prospered immensely. In order that we should prosper, these Greeks who are to be found in every village must be made to leave our country. I have never heard of any black man owning a cafeteria in Greece, (Laughter) neither have I ever heard of a black man having a prospering business in Greece. We are unable to conduct businesses and trade in this Transkei of ours because there is an influx of these Greeks and we are unable to do anything. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr VAPI : A black man in the Transkei has not sufficient financial resources to establish a big business . That is an indication that we would be incapable of competing with white people as far as business and 299

a decent livelihood because they are trading in Soweto and other townships. Now, you say the Blacks must have exclusive trading rights in these towns. In other words, your idea of having these towns declared black is to refuse, for instance, a licence to a white man to trade, but I have never seen people more selfish than hon. members of this Government. What would happen if, because you say these towns must be black, because you want trading rights in the Transkei reserved for Blacks, the white Government were to say that all Blacks who are trading in the townships in the Republic must stop trading there? What would be the consequence? Mr PAMLA: They are not even allowed to have more than two businesses there. Mr GUZANA: Is it not likely that in your selfish concern about your own welfare, because you live in the Transkei, you are undermining Africans who are trading in these townships ? (Interjections) If you apply separate development in the Transkei you must expect it to be applied rigorously against you in the Republic. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: It is applied now. Mr GUZANA: It is being applied vigorously, yes, and you have assisted in the application of that policy. For the last ten years you have been dedicated protagonists although you profess now that it had nothing to do with you that it was the policy of the white Government. If you did not believe in separate development and apartheid, why is this side of the gallery for Blacks and that side for Whites under your Government? As I lifted up my eyes I saw sisters, but because they are black they had to sit this side, and because one is white she has got to sit that side - your policy! So although you deny your allegiance to the policy of separate development you still apply it so long as you mistakenly think it will be to your own advantage. (Interjections) Some misguided person has said here that Africans do not get credit from the banks. Well, we must look at these things and investigate them before we make irresponsible statements. The XDC will give you a loan; the Standard Bank will give you a loan. Volkskas will give you a loan; Barclays Bank will give you a loan. All these banks will give you an overdraft on condition that you pledge security sufficient to cover the overdraft. If the white man goes to the bank and he is carrying in his shop stock to the value of R10 000 or more and asks for an overdraft of R3 000 he must get it. But you think that because you are a black man you can go to the same bank carrying stock of R5 000 and raise a loan of R5 000, which cannot happen. If you have an insurance policy that has endured for a period to make it an asset, that can be pledged even, and you will get an overdraft facility or you will get credit facilities in the bank to the value of your policy, if surrendered. The Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland has been pulling me up for putting my foot on this chair, and now he wants me to face the Chair. Will the hon. member sit properly in his chair and look forward. (Laughter) So it is a misrepresentation to suggest that Blacks cannot get an overdraft from the bank. Mr E. M. DEKEDA : Where is the motion? Mr GUZANA : I am replying to the mover and the points he raised. Mr DEKEDA: We want your opinion. Mr GUZANA: You will get it. Haven't you been listening? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr GUZANA: I want to go on and say this to the governing party that so long as you want to be

trade is concerned. I am trying to persuade the hon. members of the Opposition to understand that we cannot prosper as long as the white man is still in our midst. Mr Chairman, let me make this point clear. If the hon. members of the Opposition intend to stand up and address this House against this motion, I will realise they are lost in their way of thinking. I will not be surprised because I have been suspicious all the time that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has been bought over to assist the white man. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, one finds it hard to reply to people who really agitate the discussion to such a degree that you don't know whether they are coming or going or what they are standing for. The motion seeks to have these towns declared totally black in order to allow free trade competition, but if these become black towns and the white man has no business rights I ask whether or not you are still going to have free trade competition. Free trade includes everybody, irrespective of race or colour. The trouble is that the thinking of the hon. members of the governing party is conditioned by colour and that black is synonymous with freedom, white is synonymous with oppression. Probably they have never seen a pictorial representation of Satan with his long tail and looking as black as some of them look, and in order to burlesque their thinking I suppose they think that once you are black you are a free man. Mr H. PAMLA : Black is beautiful. Mr GUZANA: Black is beautiful ― I will run away when you say that, especially when I scan the members of the governing party here. Some of us have sleepless nights because of the faces we see here. (Laughter) You argue that if these towns were black then you will have the opportunity to realise yourselves in business , as if once they are declared black you will automatically have capital to trade; that immediately they are declared black all the stringent regulations which apply to business premises and trading shall fall away and it will be a free-for-all. Some of you think that freedom is synonymous with licence, and yet freedom extends only in so far as your freedom does not interfere with the freedom of the next man. Now, we have had the Government saying time and again during this session that separate development is not their policy, that at some time in the future when independence comes then they will begin to sit down and think out a policy. First of all, let it be clear that this is an admission of this Government that it has been no more than His Master's Voice the master in Pretoria, the voice in this Assembly. (Interjections) So when they have suddenly realised that there is something like independence they are beginning to shed the blanket they have been wearing for the last ten years. But if you have been blanketed in the skin of a jackal, even when you throw it off the smell of the jackal remains on you and so we find this unpleasant effluvium coming through a motion such as we have this afternoon. There is an obsession against colour division. If the white man discriminated against the black man, now the black man must discriminate against the white man. That is your philosophy. Now, it has been alleged that the black man has no trading rights in the Republic, and yet if you walk into Soweto, Langa, Guguletu, all these places, you will find prosperous Blacks trading there, so that it is false to allege that the black man does not trade in white South Africa. Mr H. PAMLA: Have you seen any Black trading in West Street, Durban? Mr GUZANA: So they are making their money in the Republic and they have been able to maintain 300

coddled in cottonwool in the economic sphere, so long will you remain economic babies. So long as you feel that before you can start trading you must have regulations to protect you from competition against other racial groups, so long will you remain children in the economic sphere. I have the suspicion that a black man wants to trade in an exclusive environment because he wants to exploit. We have had quite a lot of that. For instance, taximen over the weekend, because they can get petrol, charge double the fare over the weekend. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

Mr GUZANA: That is what you are doing in the Transkei I am not talking about Paarl. And because all taxis running in Umtata re subject to segregation laws (they either serve Whites or Blacks) the Blacks now are exploring the fuel crisis. That is what you want. You are certainly getting your own deserts coming to you. When zoning came in by proclomation, this side of the House told you that you should not accept zoning but rather ask that the towns be declared open towns so that the same standard of service and care should be extended to the whole town and stop having a black area of the town and a white area of the town, but you wanted a black area and a white area. Now you come squealing to this House and say the white man is discriminating against you. Had you listened to our advice then on zoning there would be none of this squealing which we are getting today. You would be having the right to buy a shop anywhere in town; you would have the right to trade anywhere in town. You have always complained that you haven't the muscles to get into commerce competitively, but you have yourselves to blame for that. You start a business and before it has grown you lie in your bed until 10 a.m. and leave the shop at 4 p.m. to go somewhere. There is nothing more lucrative than a bus service, but once you have about R1 000 or R2 000 you think you are rich and you take life easy and you turn your back to the business and you go under. The hon. member for Port St. John's says we cannot compete with the Whites. Mr H. PAMLA: But that is true. Mr GUZANA: The trouble is that the black man is too lazy to work. That is the trouble, and if you were to exploit all the rights and privileges you have we would be in better circumstances than we are now

for petrol, of course they will go to Boss So-andso. It is typical of these separate development blokes, and so because you don't want to help each other but rather, handicapped by jealousies, you kick one another down then you come and tell me that the black man cannot compete with the Whites. If only you would stretch a helping hand to your neighbour trader who is black there would be no need for these squeals and howls and what have you. Then I have heard you say you want to trade alone so that you are the worst discriminators on the basis of colour. You won't enjoy a privilege or a right unless it is yours alone. The white man has a very fitting expression to describe that type of attitude ― the dog-in-the-manger attitude, refusing the other man a chance to lift himself. But you can, as you rise, lift one another. Let us look at just one example. Most of the members of this House own cars. They buy them from XDC garages, they buy them from garages belonging to Whites. How many of you, when you go in there, are addressed as Mr So-and-so because money speaks? When you get there your car is given first service because you have money, so that the economic aspect overrides the question of colour prejudice. Let me tell you, hon. members, you won't be called a Mister unless you have money jingling in your pocket. In our tribal tradition a poor man has no wisdom and everybody listens to the stupid but rich man. May I hope that you are going to have some sense sufficient to realise that competition is the best form of uplifting an individual ; that if you have no competition you tend to rest on your laurels and to render secondgrade service to the public. And isn't it right and proper that you should have a white man next to you so that you may learn from him? A Xhosa idiom states that a bird builds its own nest with the feathers of another bird. You get bottlestores in the rural areas just about surviving. They are alone and without competition, trying to get money out of people who are not earning a cash wage. Compare them with other bottlestores which are competing in urban areas and see how flourishing the town bottlestores are. To put it in the most simple language, in order to get a knife sharp you sharpen it over a rough edge, not a smooth edge. That is the reason why we on this side say you must go into competition with the white man. Don't underestimate your ability and your intelligence. Don't grade yourselves as lower animals in the competitive society of commerce. Your psychological attitude handicaps you even before you have started selling five cents' worth of sugar. You say: "Oh, Mr So-and-so, the white man is going to ruin me. I shall struggle on for a while and then surrender in shame." And then you will join the ranks of those who believe in separate development because you want laws, regulations and rules to protect you. Somebody said they would then control these towns because they would be black towns. I have seen this type of control which you are so keen to have being exercised in some of the towns . I will give you just one example where a member of an advisory committee of a village moved a motion that there should be curfew regulations controlling the movement of Blacks in that VMB area. Is there any municipality or any divisional council or any VMB in a white area which has ever introduced that type of legislation or asked for that in order to control the movement of Whites in the evening? You need not believe it, because I don't expect you to believe anything. (Interjections) You will wait for your master's voice to sound before you believe anything.

economically. Mr PAMLA: That is a big insult. Mr GUZANA: He says that is a big insult to the Africans. The trouble is that once you tell an African a straightforward fact he begins to resent it. When you tell him to work harder and harder he thinks you are making him a slave. They want to retire at 35 years of age when the retirement age is when you are lowered into your grave. Mr PAMLA: Why did you leave teaching if you were paid well? Mr GUZANA: You ask that you have the whole of the trade in these towns. What have you done with the trading opportunities in the towns that have been zoned black or partly black? The trouble is that with the black man we have so much greed and jealousy that we will not even support one another, and you know that to cover that up you go and point a finger at the white man . I want to ask the hon. members on the governing side how many of them have bought the clothing they are wearing now from a black trader. (Interjections) How many buy their groceries from black shops ? As 301

So whilst you want control you don't know what to do with the power to control, and some of you might well use these powers to the detriment of your own people. To you there is something fascinating about the image of General Amin. The jungle law is still very much in your minds. (Interjections) Let me tell you just one thing — so long as you don't develop yourselves, ourselves, economically, so long shall we remain a subjugated and oppressed race. That position is clear in the Transkei where our own budget depends upon an 80% grant from the Republican Government. (Interjections) If it was your money you would collect it from the taxpayer, but you have to get somebody else to collect it and then give it you. You make the mistake of thinking that because it is your money and you think it is your money therefore you are entitled to it. (Interjections) He is talking about income tax. I pay my income tax to the Transkeian Government. Mr H. PAMLA: It goes to East London. Mr GUZANA: I wish I would earn less so that I should not pay any money, because there are some of you I am carrying every day of my life ― some lazy people who will crawl along and are too lazy to walk. (Iterjections) Will the hon. member be thrown out of this House, please. He is losing his head now. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr GUZANA: Let us remember that whatever you do to separate and subdivide and close up people in pondokkies, the races in South Africa will continue to remain interdependent, if in nothing else at least in the economic sphere. We had better orientate our thinking in that direction so that we become positive. When are you going to form companies? When are you going to form partnerships ? One would be interested to know what hon. members of the governing party have done with the parliamentary allowance that they get. (Interjections) Some of them cannot boast even a tractor after their ten years in this House. Some of them cannot boast even a decent house after ten years in this House. Probably most of the money remains in the pondokkies and in the shebeens and in the warm beds in Umtata. (Laughter) But I must tell you that if you don't wake up on your own you will never be helped anywhere. If you talk about black towns, white towns, yellow towns, pink towns, you will never improve yourselves because you are conditioned to race thinking. Some of you are boasting that you will get foreign aid ― money for jam coming into the Transkei to develop it. Nobody will give you money unless you show the initiative and incentive to do something positive, and whilst you are thinking of black, white, yellow, pink, an idustrialist or economist or entrepreneur has no time for you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support this motion. We have been interested in observing the white people exchanging inheritances which they did not actually possess. First it was the English people who were sitting in butter, and they handed over to the Afrikaner to enjoy those rights and privileges. As God would have it the wheel has turned and has turned in our favour. This motion seeks to have these towns declared black like other villages. We are tired of these people who want to usurp everything, like the white people who say Port St. John's is theirs. We know as of right that we have no doubts as to who owns this country. Because we are powerless we must submit that Port St. John's is not ours, although we know it belongs to us. Similarly, the towns we refer to must

be declared black. Whatever transpires after they have been declared black is no concern of anyone else. Why must we be allocated certain portions of these villages and be told that this portion is for the Whites and that for the Blacks? We have already been apportioned the Transkei and have been told it belongs to us. Why must the villages now be fragmented? I am not suggesting that a white man or, for that matter, a human being of different race must pack up and go. What we want to impress is that these villages must remain firmly in our grip. Even in these rural areas we have not asked the white people to quit, but they are quitting of their own accord. In like manner the Europeans who are now with us in these villages, when they feel they cannot tolerate us they will pack up and go. It is our desire that a black man in the Transkei must be allowed free movement and must attain the wishes of his heart in whatever manner. The Afrikaners are so accustomed to ruling and giving people what they think is good for them. I observed in yesterday's paper that they say they alone have the right to allocate and apportion land for the homelands. If that is so then it must be allocated as it was done during the regime of the English people. I refer to God, the allocater of rights to men. We must not be impoverished intentionally by the Afrikaners. Why do they delight in apportioning to us the lean places and take the areas that are fully developed into their possession? It behoves us to require the white man to give us all these villages, in as much as they controlled those villages when they were there as white businessmen and in their business enterprises we supported them. They should entertain no fear that when these villages are declared black the white people will be anathema in those villages. What we require is full rights. We do not want some portion of the village zoned for the black people when certain portions are prosperous you will depart from putting up businesses there. I don't find any premises on which the Opposition party stands, as they allege that they proposed we must live together. There is nothing so discouraging as when one has a specific object attained and one finds onself hemmed in on all sides by unnecessary confrontations. From my experience I know very well that the noisiest elements are the puppies. As puppies in this House they say they have told us that this is not correct. When puppies are baffled they will tell people that man has not been allowed to prosper. Leave everything to us because we shall conquer. You have no way out. Little puppies when on a run are unable to turn back. Mr Chairman, we have had enough oppression from the white people. There is a hue and cry in this House that when the white people are sent away we will not be able to fend for ourselves. We are not afraid. If we find it necessary we shall tell them to pack and go. We are not afraid of that. We want the right to tell them to tell them to pack and go when we say so. If the Afrikaner rulers in Pretoria wish to see coexistence prosper they must of necessity be able to live with us peacefully so that the intended objective is attained . You never feel happy as a black man because even if you have trading rights in the Republic you are curtailed in your business enterprises. Even when you return to the Transkei you are again told you can trade here and not there by the same man who told you to quit the Republic. To my way of seeing things, I believe we are making preparations for our future generations so that when they are evicted from the white areas they will have a place to abide. I am told 302

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I crave your indulgence on behalf of the mover of the motion who is absent now, but I feel it my duty and the duty of this House ... CHAIRMAN : Just resume your seat, please.

that our African people have trading rights in the urban areas. I have never seen anybody who has complete rights to trade as he wishes. They are told to go and trade in the municipal areas known as locations. Similarly, they want us to have the same rights here as though we are trading in the locations. What place do the Afrikaners think really belongs to us? They are full of nonsense in their areas and they bring their nonsense here to our place. We cannot allow that to carry on. We want people of the Transkei to realise that if these villages are not granted to us it will be because the other man uses his power and we are unable to resist his power. The Afrikaners have this queer misconception that we must be regarded as babies and when they do what they think is necessary for us they think we should be satisfied and fold our arms. If they think they are going to shake their heads and say No when we want our country which they say belongs to us, we shall retain this land in the same manner as they deprived our forefathers of the land. Whether we shall apply methods of fire or water or anything else, we shall attain our place. Why must we be enslaved forever and all the fertile land apportioned to the Afrikaners, leaving the rocky barren areas to us? Places like Ngangelizwe and Norwood must be improved and they must be decent places where our African children can reside. The upper portions of Umtata close to the hospital there could easily be occupied by us. Why must they tell us where to settle and where not to settle? We have accepted separate development. What else must be done? The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 3rd May 1974.

GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Government Service Amendment Bill 1974 and I move that the bill be read a first time. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the second reading of this bill will be on Monday, the 6th day of May 1974, or so soon thereafter. GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, before moving the second reading of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Amendment Bill, I wish to explain briefly its nature and purpose. It has been the practice in the past to supplement civil pensions with bonuses and related monetary allowances in order to compensate pensioners for periodic increases in the cost of living and corresponding decline in the purchasing power of money. While pensions naturally remained constant in accordance with the prescribed formula by which they were calculated at the time of retirement, the rates of bonuses and allowances were adjusted from time to time in keeping with rising living costs and other economic factors. This method has, however, undergone a change recently in civil pension schemes elsewhere in the country, and it has now become accepted practice to consolidate bonuses and allowances in the pension annuities payable to individual pensioners in order, inter alia, to avoid fragmentation of benefits which, in the case of bonuses and allowances were previously paid from revenue, and in the case of annuities from the pension fund concerned.

FRIDAY, 3rd MAY 1974 Prayers were read.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, yesterday the members of Emboland Regional Authority interviewed me in my office and informed me that they had received an urgent notification of a meeting of the regional authority to be held today, so they are all absent, Sir. That does not include the elected members for Mount Frere. If they are absent that is their own "indaba". I know nothing about them. The hon. Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara will be away on Monday and Tuesday as he will be attending a court session in Butterworth. The hon. member for Engcobo, Mr G. G. Kutu, was away yesterday and will be away today because of ill-health. Sir, then hon. the Minister of Health had to rush down to East London yesterday. This morning he is having a series of interviews. As you know, that department is very important and everyone would like to see the hon. the Minister of Health. Mr Chairman, the hon. member for Cofimvaba, Mr T. E. ka-Tshunungwa , is away on official duties and he requests that the Chairman should conduct the committee stages of any bill. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : Hon telegram which has Legislative Assembly, "Congratulations governing Glory to (Laughter)

The new procedure has the all-important advantage of ensuring that each pension payment in the form of e a consolidated annuity (payable wholly from the pension fund) does not become reduced in any way, such as could conceivably happen in the case of a pension supplemented by a bonus and allowance, the latter of which were entirely subject to fluctuating costs and the availability of the necessary government funds. Further provision exists in the relative pensions enactments for the consolidated annuities to be increased periodically as and when circumstances necessitate this being done. My Department has taken note of these developments, and, after careful study of the implications thereof, is convinced that application of the new concept of consolidated annuities to the government pension scheme in the Transkei, together with provision for subsequent increases, would be of undoubted benefit to our civil pensioners now and in future. Mr Chairman, I accordingly move that the Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to applaud the hon. Minister for this bill but in fact I have to make some comments re-

MESSAGES members of the House, there is a been received addressed to the Umtata. The telegram reads: on abolition of beerhalls good God Proverbs 20-Rev Hoyana".

303

House in Committee

garding the allowances and bonuses being subject to the availability of funds and it is as and when funds are available, depending on circumstances. Each and every financial year we vote funds in this House, then funds are available the moment we vote such funds. Now then, why should it not be specifically stated that so much of the funds that are voted for that financial year are available and then pension gratuities and allowances are granted every year and they must just accrue to people? In fact, we should feel secure, because security is Preference No. 1. The sick, the disabled and the able people are in this House. Why should we not insist on the security of such people? In fact, this is an enactment, and a bill is very important, more important than anything. It is Preference No. 1 , in fact. I wish I would, but I will canvass that in the committee stage of the bill. With those few remarks, Mr Chairman . . Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish just to make a few observations in connection with the said bill. First of all I want to say we welcome this bill. In fact, it is long overdue. Now, why I say this, Mr Chairman, is because I am one of the people who suffered over this pension business. You know, for a long time Africans were never regarded as civil servants while in the government service. When we were employed as inspectors of education we were called "Supervisors of Education". The reason was the designation of inspector automatically meant you were a civil servant and the powers that be at the time could never imagine a black man enjoying the rights and privileges of a civil servant. The Department of Education in the Cape of Good Hope operated some funny pension scheme which, in actual fact, was no pension scheme. A lot of female teachers donated a few cents to the Government which they never received . Under the Natal Provincial Administration t' here was never a pension scheme, except for what was called a Provident Fund. That is why I lost a lot of money after many years in the service. Now we can see straight away here that we are now prescribing the destinies of our own people and we want those who give service to the state to be assured of something reasonable when they retire. In fact, when they are subject to such pension scheme they will be more interested in their work and they will look after their jobs just like the Whites themselves. The other day I read about a white railway servant who lost a lot of money on his pension for having committed a crime. In fact, one of the reasons why so many teachers resign from the teaching profession these days is because they have been complaining about this question of pension schemes. As I have said, Mr Chairman, we welcome the bill and I hope the multiracialist on my right will support it. Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on Wednesday, 8th May.

Clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. House Resumed CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, I wish to report Mr E. DYARVANE: Mr Chairman, I wish to request that the Chairman should move to the Chairman's seat before reporting progress. CHAIRMAN : I wish to report that this bill has been accepted without amendment. MOTOR CARRIER TRANSPORTATION AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as I requested I move that the bill be read a third time today. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. ZONING OF CERTAIN TOWNS COMPLETELY BLACK The debate was resumed. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to make my observations in connection with this motion by the hon. member for Matatiele. This side of the House — I have the full assurance of it - are going to make our observations in so far as this motion is concerned. Firstly and foremost, where there is blackness there is no light. (Laughter) Now, I would ask the hon. member in fact, but unfortunately he is not on the floor now, what he means about being totally black. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You must be serious. Mr MGUDLWA: The hon. Minister is interjecting. He is not black, I think he is rather white. (Laughter) To allow free trade, that is laissez faire if I am directed to infer from his allegations. For example, in the Transkei the confusion lies in this - but they want these towns to be totally black in order to allow free trade, but if at all, how is Umtata? Why should you ask specifically for these towns if all you think in your own town you are black? Mr H. PAMLA: Umtata is not my home town. Mine is Umzimkulu. Mr MGUDLWA: This hon. new member from Umzimkulu is specifically talking about his home town because it is included in this motion. We represent the people of the Transkei, not of Umzimkulu. Even in the regional authorities that are nine in this Transkei, Umzimkulu is just a district on its own. Mr PAMLA: Talk about the motion. Mr MGUDLWA: And in the motion I wish even to find out from the mover of the motion if he is aware of the fact that in theTranskei there is, in fact, free trade. Laissez faire belongs to nobody but to everybody, in that there is the law of natural selection as propounded by Darwin the survival of the fittest and the elimination of the unfit. If you are fit you reconcile yourself with the idea of survival. If you are unfit you have to reconcile yourself with the idea of being eliminated and weeded out of existence. Be that as it may, Mr Chairman, it means that in fact laissez faire as it exists in the Transkeian Territories, in this Transkei of ours, does not warrant any thing of this motion. Any connotation from the mover or from whoever about this motion means that in fact, because this motion or whatever feeling he has got, it is the child of separate development. Have you ever heard a saying that where there is nothing there will be something?

MOTOR CARRIER TRANSPORTATION AMENDMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF ROADS : Mr Chairman and hon. members, before I move that the House goes into committee, yesterday I requested the House and the Chair that because of the brevity of this bill it should be disposed of yesterday, and I think the Chair and the House consented. I now move that the House should sit in committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to.

304

Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I have heard people talk but I am not supporting this motion. It is quite clear from what I can gather from the hon. members on the governing side that they have introduced this motion is to follow in the steps of General Amin. (Laughter) They think they will then be in a position to drive out the white people. I would understand them if their request was that they should carry on business together with the white people in these towns. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, it is a pity that we seem to be on a point of having to have a lot of interpreters interpreting for that hon. gentleman who does not understand anything. The motion says "to allow free trade competition" in these towns. It does not say that the black people must trade alone. Mr NKOSIYANE: The hon. Minister who has now stood up did so because he is ignorant. He is a person who has never used his brain. The motion affects three towns and in these three towns there are black people who are carrying on trade. There is Sobuza, there is Mnyani in Umtata. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are ignorant yourself. He is a foolish old man. Mr NKOSIYANE : You are a foolish old man yourself. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, order. Mr NKOSIYANE : I have been sent here to represent people who voted for me in Mqanduli . That is what I say, and we will never support the rubbish introduced by people following separate development. We were born in this country and we have never been put separately from others. We cannot take something that has been brought here by strangers like Dr. Eiselen and Dr. Verwoerd. We cannot accept such a dirty thing brought by those people. We are in this country and we are the aborigines of this country. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, we are surely not discussing where you were born, hon. member, so please come back to the motion and collect your senses. Mr NKOSIYANE: This is what I am stating. You are introducing this motion for the sole aim of kicking out the white people. The last speaker on the Government side stated that they have no money. I say why should the Government not increase the money so that we have such money? Today they keep on making requests that we have been given self-government. They must look up Clause 6 in the United Nations Charter. Clause 6 states that if you have been given self-government you can go by air to UNO and put up your case before UNO. (Laughter) You must stop hesitating and going about licking people's feet. It is a deplorable thing that these people have been highly educated and yet they can do nothing because of cowardice. (Interjections) You were given self-government and you have the right to go to UNO and state your case. Now you are making a dirty request. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, order. Mr NKOSIYANE : What I say is that these people are succeeding in stating nothing. We will never join them in their separate development. What we require is land. (Interjections) This town is mine. The white people came and built towns in our country. This country was given to us by God. After he gave us this land he did not give us knowledge, but some tribes who were given wisdom came and they taught us and now we are in the know. Even the white peorle who came were welcomed by our forebearers.

With those words, I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr D. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to support this motion because it is aiming at the implementation of separate development because Umtata, Umzimkulu, Idutywa and Butterworth are situate in the Transkei, which area has been earmarked for the black people. When the mover of the motion suggests that the control of these towns be given over to the black people we ought to support that idea. There are those villages which are controlled by black people and some villages have been zoned black and white, and during all those stages an opportunity is being given to the black people to get training in the administration of these towns. Independence is not very far away and it is only correct that in the meantime these towns should be controlled by black people. As we have had some of these towns zoned, the white people had preference to remain in the more prosperous portions of the town. It often happens that when zoning takes place portions which are unproductive are given to the black people and the more productive areas are given to the white people. As we now look forward to independence it is only correct that we must now get gradual control of these towns. There was no free trade in actual fact, in so far as our people were concerned. It was pointed out yesterday by one hon. member that there were African tradesmen in Umtata, Idutywa and Butterworth. These Africans who are trading in these towns I have mentioned did not occupy those trading sites because of their own choice. They were told to trade in that particular spot. In general the African has not much capital and it is found that when he takes over that business he has not sufficient security. On the other hand the white trader has a title deed for his premises which he pledges in order to obtain credit facilities from the bank, so that the section that is occupied by the white people will advance much faster than the other side. Even when the African trader goes to buy at the wholesaler he is told to pay cash because he has no security to offer. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned yesterday that even the suits that we are wearing are bought from European traders. That is quite correct, but it is because the African tradesmen are unable to supply what we want because they are always made to pay cash for whatever they buy from the wholesalers. We are told that we do not advance sufficiently in our business, but the very fact that we have no title deeds militates against our progress, whereas from the word Go the title deed can be used as security so that the white man can get credit. The European child while he is growing up is already secured whereas we are in perpetual debt. Now, when these towns are controlled by the black people we shall be in a position to equalize the position. The Whites will have to subject themselves to the rule of the black man. We black people were again accused by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with laziness, whereas if you look at the development which has been made it has been through our labour on very little pay. We would understand if you admitted that we have no money. That is quite correct, but to label us as lazy is not correct. It would be wellnigh impossible for us on the threshold if independence to take control overnight of these towns. Instead we should take control gradually while we are being trained. In short, Mr Chairman, we ask that right away these towns should be handed over to our control so that we have sufficient time to see what the position is going to be. With those words, Mr Chairman, I support the motion that seeks control of these towns to be given to us so that we are able to see what the position will be.

305

on the Opposition side I will not be lengthy. Mr H. PAMLA: Speak wisely or not at all. (Laughter) Mr XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, I have observed from the discussions advanced in connexion with this motion that there is something which seems to be confusing the minds of the members relative to the previous motion by the hon. member for Butterworth. This motion in question has nothing to do with the taking away of towns. It only refers to trading. It seems that the tendency of members is to discuss the policy of separate development instead of talking on the present motion. Mr Chairman, it should be noted that even the supporters of this motion seem to be running away from the policy of separate development because they want all races to stay together. I will just make a few remarks in connexion with the aspect of competition. In Engcobo there is competition with the white people. When we approach the wholesalers in Engcobo to buy stock we find that they sell to us at a retail price, but when you go to the supermarkets you find that the customers there pay less than we pay at the wholesalers. We came to the conclusion therefore that the white people are all out to destroy the black traders. We in Engcobo have not made a request that the white trader should leave. Instead we formed a traders' association so that we should be in a position to buy from the factories as the white wholesalers do. Our aim was not to enrich ourselves as traders, but we were making suitable arrangements for our own people Immediately we formed this association even the factories had competition. We purchase a bag of mealies for R4,38 but when we buy in bulk we pay R4,10. Our customers then derive some benefit from this because they buy their mealies from us at R4,85 a bag instead of R5. Now the white trader is feeling the pinch. It was not our aim that the white trader should be put out of business, but we merely desired that we should be able to compete with them. For that reason we support competition with the Whites so that we should all trade together. We will meet a difficulty in having competition amongst ourselves when we have no funds. We would prefer to have this competition together with them. We entertain no fears because we will be able to meet this competition. We are sure they will leave. Mr Chairman, it should be noted that if we stay together with the Whites that is the only way they will leave soon. (Interjections) There is an example here at the Umtata post office when it was stated that there should be one staff, then the Whites left. Mr Chairman, what is of great importance is that as we know the people don't want to stay side by side with us, the only approach is that we should desire to stay side by side with them. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, it is in our nature that we should stay peacefully together with other races. As this is natural we cannot say just because certain people don't want to stay with the Whites that we should just follow suit. (Interjections.) One thing of great importance is to do everything in a civil manner and if one is not civilized he will show himself up. It is for that reason we can carry on trade in competition with our white counterparts. We have nothing to fear. I have already stated I would not be lengthy and I thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is pleasant to stand in the Transkei Legislative Assembly and to utter a lot of impressive, clever political nonsense and then to cast a glance at the Press galleries to see an impressed "pro-you" newspaper correspondent. But no pleasure is comparable to standing on the vantage ground of truth - a hill not to be

CHAIRMAN: Come to the motion, please. Mr NKOSIYANE : We must all stay and live together in these towns and do the same services. No-one must be precluded from such rights. We want to stay together. There is a quotation that says we should grow together and be alike. What the black people want is freedom and that we should receive equal pay. We will not be fed by the transformation of the towns becoming black towns. Anyone who wants to change these towns should go. Mr D. J. NDLELENI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I feel very perturbed and unable to speak to this motion on account of the terrible noise being made in this House. There has been a great deal of irrelevant discussion on this motion, to such an extent that I do not know what exactly they are talking about. The hon. members have a misconception in that they believe the white people are asked to leave the towns and the black people should remain on their own. That is a wrong interpretation. The motion is not directed to that conclusion. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: The motion says "totally black". Mr NDLELENI : The motion seeks to allow everyone, irrespective of colour, to trade wherever he wishes , even in the zoned areas. Some of the speakers have mentioned that the Africans are jealous. I don't understand where jealousy comes into this motion. It is clear that they have a misconception about the object of the motion. The motion seeks to request the Government that, seeing there are some villages in the Transkei which are already totally black, all the remaining towns should be black. That does not mean to say that we are rejecting the white people. As we are on the verge of attaining complete independence, that cannot be achieved as long as there are still some zoned areas in our country. What we require is for everybody, black and white, to be able to trade anywhere he pleases. Who does not know that the black man is still a novice as far as commerce is concerned ? For that reason he should be allowed to trade anywhere. For instance, if there is a place where a small business could be conducted successfully he should be allowed to conduct a business there. He should not be debarred because that area is zoned white. As we know, the black man is financially weak and seeing that he has not sufficient financial resources it woud be impossible for him to start any business on a large scale. Zoning must be done away with altogether because it does not go hand in hand with the policy of separate development. It is obvious that zoning must of necessity come to an end sooner or later. We cannot allow our country to be permanently zoned. I cannot think of any independent state where there is zoning. This is the first stage towards complete independence and we therefore feel it is high time that all these towns should be declared black. That is not going to be the end of the road because there are still some towns which must be declared black. Regarding financial resources it is impossible for a black trader to compete with another trader who has had these resources at hand. If I could secure a trading site in the location that would be appropriate because it would be commensurate with my financial resources. In the same vein I must be allowed to trade as a hawker even if I go up to the hospital side. There should be no closed areas where people are not allowed to trade. CHAIRMAN : I now call upon the last speaker from the Opposition before I ask the mover to reply. Mr S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon. members, as you have said I will be the last speaker

306

commanded, where the air is always clear and serene. That hill is separate development. Though we (including this grumbling group opposing us) have half-claimed that hill of separate development, nobody doubts the abundance awaiting us from the summit of that hill. Yes, we pay allegiance to separate development. I for one support it whole-heartedly and will continue to do so until I am laid to my bed by the extremity of sickness. The hon. members of the Opposition are confused as to whether we pay allegiance to the policy of separate development or whether we were its co-genitors, yet they are sitting in a House established in terms of the separate development policy, in that way paying allegiance to it as well never mind a great deal of opposition lip-service from them. Mr Chairman, I wish this invertebrate group under the banner of multiracialism would make up their minds either to believe in separate development or to disbelieve in it. CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please stick to the motion and not to policy. Mr LUDIDI : Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am trying to reply to their remarks. Well, they accused Blacks of laziness to begin with. That alone shows they do not know the status quo outside. That is a false accusation. If you went to Cape Town or Johannesburg you would find that those two cities were built by the sweat of the African. Africans are industrious. They have always wanted to be tradesmen or businessmen, but because of apartheid restrictions they could not be. Then another argument is that the Blacks have trading rights in the Republic. This statement shows clearly that the utterer is a fanatical ignoramus. Those Blacks who have trading rights in the Republic are not Transkeians. They are the Blacks with whom the Republic does not know what to do. In any event, they are continually reminded that they should go to the resettlement areas where they will be able to trade. You eventually find out, therefore, that Blacks have no trading rights in the Republic. Another argument based on a false premise is that "if you listened to our advice on multi-racialism you would have the right to buy shops anywhere”. The hon. members of the Opposition say this as if they are the first multi-racialists in this country. Let them be reminded that separate development was accepted despite strong opposition of better multi-racialists than they are, so even if they did not exist we would still have separate development and then we would not have the right to trade in the Republic or anywhere we liked. Then the hon. member for Willowvale said I described the homelands as a concentration camp. It is always the case with the hon. members of the Opposition - they will seize a certain point of a member's speech and distort it to suit themselves. If he has a very good sense of hearing, I did not say that the homelands are concentration camps. I said that according to popular belief by Africans outside this House the homelands are regarded as concentration camps as a result of their being unable to trade freely. Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : That is your second thought. Mr LUDIDI: It is a curious fact that this popular belief outside was propagated by them, so in the end, should you go deeply into this question, you will find that homelands are not concentration camps. There is a lot of things we could quote to prove they are not concentration camps. The fact that they are regarded as such is just the result of the workings of an irresponsible group who are committed at certain stages to agitate people to reject separate development . CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please concentrate on the motion more than on general principles .

307

Mr LUDIDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The motion says the municipal areas of Butterworth, Umtata, Idutywa and Umzimkulu should be zoned completely black in order to allow free trade competition. A lot has been said in this wise by hon. members of the governing side and I need not say further about this, otherwise it would be tautology. All I would like to say is that I move that this honourable House should adopt the motion. Motion put and carried unanimously. ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I crave your indulgence to make a very important announcement which should be made now. I move that the rules of the House should be waived in order that I should make this announcement. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, as you know, there were serious disturbances in Carletonville at the Western Deep Levels Consolidated Gold Mines and I have just had a telephone conversation with the manager of that mine. He has informed me that the mine requires about 3 000 workers from the Transkei and on inquiring about the wages he assured me that the minimum wage for underground workers on that mine is 90c. a shift rising to R5,60 per shift. I think you understand that a shift is a day's work from the time you go underground until you come up again and the average wage is R1,80 a day. Now, Mr Chairman, I am requested to ask that the chiefs and headmen should as soon as possible inform their subjects at home. Trucks will come down to Pondoland, Umzimkulu and the whole of the Eastern Transkei, including Bomvanaland, Mqanduli, Engcobo, Cofimvaba, etc. Now, the management will get here on Monday, together with the urban representatives, to inform me about the causes of the disturbances on that mine. They will bring trucks with them to collect these people to go and work on the mines. In other words, Carletonville will now be a Transkeian mine if they get these 3 000 workers. I visited this mine while I was in Johannesburg and I was satisfied that the conditions under which our people are working there are quite fair and satisfactory. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, I take it the whole House is happy to learn of the statement put forward by the hon. the Chief Minister. The hon. the Chief Minister has given us the figures that presently obtain in that mine but he has not indicated to us by how mush the rise has been effected. What was the minimum wage before the disturbances? CHIEF MINISTER : That was the minimum wage 90c . a day. Mr MADIKIZELA: The chiefs and headmen will certainly place this before their people and I am sure the hon. members will assist them in the operation. Thank you, Mr Chairman. . Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman ... was this a mere anmembers, Hon. CHAIRMAN: nouncement by the hon. the Chief Minister so we shall close the subject. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, it would appear that the movers of Motions Nos. 14 and 21 are not present in the House today. I therefore crave the indulgence of the House to allow these motions to stand down and instead to proceed with Motion 24. I move accordingly. Agreed to.

TRANSFER OF TRIBAL AUTHORITY ROADS TO GOVERNMENT CONTROL

of the roads they could not exploit the forests. Today people are having difficulty in finding firewood unless they go to the forests. People were stopped from getting scrub bush in my district. When they were stopped from collecting this scrub it meant they had to get wood from the forests. We request the Government to see to it that these roads are well-constructed and that they should lead right into these forests. I am sure people who have knowledge of road construction will be employed in such matters. We request that the Transkeian Government should take these roads over. Coming to the matter of mission stations, it is a disgraceful state of affairs when one finds there is no good road leading to a mission station especially when the missionary authorities expect visits from missionaries from other parts. I was greatly disappointed on one occasion when we expected the President of our Church to visit our mission and his car had to be left on the other side of a river. I felt like hiding myself. There is another member of this House who could have introduced this motion to the House. It is a disgraceful state of affairs because it was believed that a new set-up was going to make suitable arrangements for all the people. The people were told that the roads right through the residental areas would be put into good order. Our request is that this matter should be taken up strongly and all this should take effect not later than tomorrow. With regard to the establishment and construction of clinics in various places, clinics should not be erected along the roads, but they should be established in the residental areas. If there are no roads and these clinics have to be put up in residential areas, what would be the purpose of constructing them? It would be a sheer waste of money. The clinics are there for us to attend, but we have to use all kinds of vehicles at all times, day and night. This matter needs no explanation because it is obvious that at any time, day or night, they should be able to attend these clinics . We place our trust in our Government and it is our sincere desire that the roads leading to the clinics should be constructed. Whilst we are collecting funds to put up the clinics the Government should see to the construction of the roads leading to these various residential areas. Now for the trading centres. I consider the traders as an asset and also help to the Government of the Transkei. I know they pay some taxation as far as their stores are concerned and the amount is payable to the Transkeian Government. How is it feasible when there are no roads leading to their stores and their trading stock is on the other side of a river and they have no means of transporting that stock to the store? One trader wrote to me inquiring why it is that no roads are constructed to their stores, whereas there were roads leading to the white stores. In reply I told him that nothing can be done overnight. Near my place there is a big store belonging to a certain trader. He is doing good service but he is hindered by the fact that there is no road leading to his store and he therefore cannot transport his stock. We ask that this matter receive the attention of the Government and that these roads be taken over by the Transkeian Government. Last but not least, let me touch on the residential places of the chiefs. It is very disappointing when you want to go to the chief's place by car and you cannot get there on account of the bad road. All the residences of the chiefs are visited by a great number of people. I remember one chief telling me that some dignitaries from Cape Town had visited his place and because there was no road leading to his place they had to leave their vehicles far away. Then we feel small, whether people who are working hand in

Mr M. J. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of taking full control of all roads leading to government schools, forestry plantations, mission stations, clinic centres, trading centres and chiefs' residential places in the Transkei." Mr Chairman, this is a motion which is self-explanatory and everyone should be clear about it. Everyone will lift his hand in support of this motion. In my motion I have given preference to roads leading to schools. Difficulty is experienced in the administrative areas because of the lack of good roads leading to these schools. It will be noted that after the acceptance of rehabilitation no consideration was given to roads leading to those establishments. Some of the residential areas are far away from the roads and no arrangements were made so that residential areas should be on level ground and close to the roads. In former days there were such places that caused difficulty even to school inspectors making visits to those schools on account of the bad terrain. Even when the new set-up was introduced, nothing was done to remove such schools to places where they would be suitably located near the roads. As a result, some of these schools do not have inspectors visiting them for periods of up to three years or more. Because these schools have not been visited by inspectors the work is not progressing. I am reminded of a school where I taught which was situated in such a place that when an inspector came to inspect the school he always looked at the weather for fear of showers, when he would have had difficulty in returning home. It should be noted that some of the teachers who lack initiative would take advantage of this state of affairs and neglect their duties. With the advent of the new structure we wish these matters to be attended to so that there should be frequent visits by inspectors. We therefore desire that this House should request the Government to see that good roads are constructed leading to the schools and that such roads should be under the control of the Government. It is a pathetic state of affairs when vehicles find difficulty in travelling to the secondary schools which have been established. There is a school which is not far from my place of residence and the school is quite close to the road, but the deviation to the school is in a very bad state. When I requested some of the workers on the road to see to this road they referred me to Umtata. Even when I requested them to put some gravel on a certain spot in preparation for a car which would be going to the school on that particular day the workers told me they had not had instructions to proceed and I must apply to Umtata. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the reading of newspapers and the like in this House is strictly prohibited . Mr SIGWELA: I have shown what is of importance as far as the roads leading to the schools are concerned. In various places in the Transkei forests have been established and I regard these as a source of revenue for the country. Amongst these forests there are some which are situated in such places that it is difficult to reach them either with oxen or by truck. On account of the heavy rains in my area I found that people had difficulty, and in fact they could not get to the forests . When I asked the forester about the income derived from the forest he replied that they could make a good income but because of the bad state 308

glove with the Government or not, when these people ask why it is there are no roads leading to these important places. I beseech the Government of the Transkei to do something good for the chiefs in this respect. Sir, I have placed all the facts in connexion with the motion which I am piloting in this House. CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA: I second, Mr Chairman. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this side of the House is supporting the motion. We are here to see that the needs of the people are met. The people have sent us to this House because their affairs are out of order. We support this motion whole-heartedly and we desire the Government to expedite what is requested in this motion. The position is as he has stated . We on this side are not here to oppose any good motion. We only oppose those which must be opposed. In my district of Mqanduli there are schools which cannot be reached at all because of the lack of roads. We implore the Government to hasten to construct the roads to those schools in order that the inspectors can reach the schools. We are going to make a list of all the roads and the bridges leading to these schools and we shall forward them to the department and expect the department to treat them sympathetically. We shall first direct our applications to the tribal authorities and if the tribal authorities are unable to do anything then the next step will be to send our request to the appropriate authorities. We shall also advise the authorities not to employ only two or three people, but to get a number of peaple so that the work can be expedited. Crossing the streams we shall request the tribal authorities to get cement pipes and see that the water 'is conveyed through these pipes, forming a bridge as it were. It is a fact that all the roads leading to the chiefs' places have been neglected. Roads leading to the shops are also neglected, to such an extent that even the delivery of bread cannot be effected as there are no roads at all. These people are paying road tax and the pity of it all is that these roads are totally neglected . The shopkeeper becomes compelled to take a wheelbarrow and cart the bread back into his shop even in rainy weather, and you can imagine what happens to the loaves of bread. The trouble is there are no proper roads leading to the shops because they have been neglected. Roads leading to the forests are equally neglected and we have to cart our wood along those roads from the forest. Seeing some of the roads have to traverse mealielands and these mealielands are full of dongas, when we go through those fields the people stop us and ask us why we don't do something as we are members of parliament. The mealie season will soon have arrived and we will be compelled to carry bags of mealies on our heads because of the lack of roads. We request that when our petitions are sent to the Government, immediate attention should be paid to them. As we go home we shall be confronted by the shopkeepers who will ask us why we haven't seen to it that there are roads to the shops. The people will say: "Ntabayitshi, we have elected you. Why don't you do something?" (Laughter) We are very pleased that this motion has been introduced to the House by the hon. member. I want to repeat that this side of the House supports this motion whole-heartedly. I praise the mover of the motion and, as I have said, we support it. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, it would appear that this is unanimously supported so I feel it fit that I should call upon the mover to reply so that we can dispose of the motion. Mr M. J. SIGWELA : Mr Chairman and hon. mem-

bers, I am very pleased that this motion has been unnamiously agreed to and I am certain that all our people see it in the same light as far as this motion is concerned. I thank you, Mr Chairman. Motion put and carried unanimously. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 6th May 1974. MONDAY, 6TH MAY 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF BILLS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Education I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 7th May 1974, he proposes to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the amendment of the Transkei Education Act No. 9 of 1966. NOTICES OF MOTION

37. CHIEF MINISTER gave notice to move(1) That whereas the Nyanda Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) resolved that new chieftainships be created in respect of the Pondo tribes resident in the areas of the Manzamhlope, Mvumeland and Ndluzula Tribal Authorities in the Port St Johns district and that Headmen Dumisa Meji, Mussolin Ndaben'i and Jackson Sita Ndamase, respectively, be designated as chiefs 'thereof; (2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new chieftainships in the Transkei ; (3) Now therefore, this Assembly recommends to the State President in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 : (a) the creation of new chieftainships in the Port St. Johns district in respect of the Pondo tribes resident within the areas of the Manzamhlope, Mvumelwano and Ndluzula Tribal Authorities in the Port St. Johns district ; and (b) the confirmation of the designation of: (i) Dumisa Meji as chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of purisdiction of the Manzamhlope Tribal Authority; (ii) Mussolin Ndabeni as chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Mvumelwano Tribal Authority; and (iii) Jackson Sita Ndamase as chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Ndluzula Tribal Authority, with effect from the date of assumption of duty as chiefs. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this being a very urgent motion and also a motion which is non-controversial, I move that the rules of this House should be suspended in order that I deal with it straight away. It has the support of all the members of the Opposition who are members of the very regional authority which has submitted this request to the Government. The Government side has no opposition to this. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CREATION OF CHIEFTAINSHIPS : PORT ST. JOHN'S DISTRICT CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, this is a non-contentious motion before this House and I have no doubt that this House will dispose of it as

309

having convened all the necessary meetings, this was the decision of all the people of Port St. John's. It is quite correct, as the hon. the Chief Minister stated, that the head of the tribal authority of Manzamhlope is Dumisa, the son of Dyantyi. Dyantyi was the son of Bokoda and Bokoda was always the head of the amaJola tribe in Port St. John's. Similarly with the tribal authority of Mvumelwano, the head is Mussolin, the son of Sigxokolo and Sigxokolo was the son of Zintonga, the son of Gqaza. Gqaza came from Qaukeni to Nyandeni. Even at that time of Gqaza was the head of the Gingqi tribe and so Mussolin was accepted as the Chief of the amaGinggi. The head of the Ndluzula Tribal Authority is Jackson Ndamase. Jackson is the son of Sita and Sita was the son of Ndevu. Ndevu was the son of Nqwiliso in the "qadi” house and Nqwiliso sent Ndevu to Port St. John's. He was attempting to create the Manyauza clan in Port St. John's, Ndevu was thus the head of the Manyauza clan of Port St. John's. It is therefore right that his descendant should be designated a chief in that area. I accordingly support this motion and am grateful to the hon, the Chief Minister for bringing it into this House in order that it should be forwarded to the authorities for confirmation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Motion put and unanimously agreed to.

soon as possible. In motivating the request for the creation of new chieftainships in the Port St. John's district and the designation of Headmen D. Meji, M. Ndabeni and J. Ndamase as incumbents to these chieftainships I wish to state that they comply with the requisites for designation as chief, namely:- Firstly, the customary right to recognition as chief, i.e. being a descendant of a royal family. Now, the tribes in the Port St. John's district have their traditional leadership and the chiefs designate occupy senior positions, genealogically, over these tribes. Their followers owe allegiance to them by tradition. Secondly, the followers must be numerically strong to warrant such chieftainships. The three chieftainships are sought to be created over the three tribal authorities in the Port St. John's district and those are the only three tribal authorities in the Port St. John's district. The tribal authorities comprise 16 administrative areas with a total population of 28 414. The creation of these chieftainships will accord with the Bantu Authorities concept of a chief as head of a tribal authority. The third prerequiste is that the tribe must constitute a distinct entity. The creation of chieftainships in the Port S. John's disrict has a long time ago been accepted by my department in principle and with this end in view the tribal authorities have been re-organized in accordance with the wishes of the registered voters, the tribal situation and the interests of these administration . The tribes in the Port St. John's district reside in separate and clearly defined areas and are distinct from one another. The Government ethnologist of the Deepartment of Bantu Administration and Development who conducted a survey of chieftainships in the Transkei towards the end of 1971 commented as follows in connexion with the aspect of chieftainships in the Port St. John's district: "There are at present no chiefs in this district. In my opinion chieftainship should be granted to Dumisa Bokoda (i.e. Meji) of the amaJola, also to Msoleni Ndabeni of the amaGingqi and also perhaps to Jackson Ndamase if the paramount chief so desires." Now, this Dumisa Bokoda is well known to me to be the descendent of the royal line of the Mpondomisis in Pondoland, that is, the amaJola. I do not say they are Mpondomisis, I say they are Pondos but they are amaJola. I am probably confusing with the amaJola of the Mpondomisi houses. Mussolin Ndabeni is the head of the amaGingqi, which is a section of the tribe in the Lusikisiki district and that tribe in the Lusikisiki district already has a chief designated as Chief of the amaGingqi. Now, Chief Jackson Ndamase is a member of the royal house of the Pondo. I know that the creation of these chieftainships had the blessing of the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland. I move that this House should recommend to the State President the confirmation of these designations in terms of the motion. CHIEF T. N. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second this motion which has been brought before this House by the hon. the Chief Minister in regard to the names of these three chiefs who reside in the district of Port St. John's. The success of this motion fulfils the wishes of the late Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland . On account of certain difficulties there has been some delay in connexion with these three chiefs whose names have been brought before this House. One of the difficulties was caused by the fact that the tribal authorities within the district of Port St. John's had to be established. When these tribal authorities had to be established the late Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland had to go right through all those separate areas . Then,

TRANSKEI PRISONS BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table the Transkei Prisons Bill in the three languages. The House will remember that this bill had to be kept back because of the unavailability of the Xhosa version. Mr. Chairman, the bill is laid down as amended and I move that it be read a third time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and Honourable members , 1. The proposed amendment of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963, i.e. the statutory provision governing the conditions of service of officers and employees in the Transkeian Government Service is designed firstly to provide for the secondment to the Transkeian Government Service of persons who are employed by other institutions or governments when necessity demands, and clause 2 thereof is intended to debar public servants from participating actively in party politics and from becoming members of political organisations or other organisations which, while falling short of being regarded as political organisations, pursue objectives which are considered prejudical to the administration. discipline or efficiency of the Transkeian Government. 2. With regard to the first clause of the amendment - that is, the clause which relates to the secondment of persons from outside bodies to the service of the Transkeian Government, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that provision exists in section 14(7) of the proclamation aforesaid for the secondment of officers or employees of the Transkeian Government to the service of the Government of the Republic or any other public institutions. There is, however, no provision in the proclamation aforesaid for the secondment to the Transkeian Government of persons from outside the Transkeian Government except that section 63 of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 (Act 48 of 1963) provides for the secondment of

310

White officers or employees of the Republican public service to the Transkeian Government. It is expected that cases will soon arise neccessitating the secondment of persons from mission hospitals. When the Transkeian Government takes over the management and control of mission hospitals there may be cases where the transfer of the management and control does not coincide with the date of transfer of the property and the staff who man these hospitals. Machinery is also being devised that will enable these persons, upon transfer, to be admitted to the Transkeian Government Employees' Pension and Gratuity Fund retrospectively to the dates on which they were appointed in the mission hospitals. This you will appreciate needs careful planning and might delay the transfer of the personnel concerned. 3. Coming now to what the second clause of the proposed amendment is intended for, I may mention that according to the present statutory provision an officer of the Transkeian Government who becomes a member of any political organisation or who takes active part in political matters shall be guilty of misconduct

them from associating themselves with party political associations. To me this was quite novel and intriguing, but I viewed it objectively as a means whereby civil servants who may be frustrated by the order of silence may be able, by work not necessarily in public, to associate themselves politically with political organizations. This, I think, is a safety valve which lets off steam for men and women who are otherwise bottled up and cannot speak out on matters affecting the country in which they live and to which they owe loyalty. My experience over the last ten years has been that even teachers and civil servants have at some time or another betrayed themselves into political activity, but that the Government has looked at them with blind eyes . I think this should be so, for the simple reason that we have a dearth of intellectual material to come to the Legislative Assembly and one would like to have a situation where a civil servant could resign, contest, and if he is unseccessful go back to the civil service. The ideal of course, is that a civil servant is an uncommitted individual who will serve whatever government is in power. That is the ideal, but on the other hand one wonders whether this proviso, which is a prohibitive one, does not result in steam building up to a degree that you get a civil service revolting against the Government. CHIEF MINISTER : We will dismiss them. Mr GUZANA: That is the sort of thing which may result in a dismissal of civil servants and a dearth of replacements. CHIEF MINISTER: We will have seconded officials . We will bring back the white officials who are loyal. Mr GUZANA: There seems, to my mind, a suggestion or a tinge of intellectual strangulation and emotional emasculation of these civil servants. Probably the hon. the Chief Minister anticipated my question when he said membership of the World Council of Churches might mean misconduct, but this remark rings a warning bell in my mind, for individuals cannot affiliate direct to the World Council of Churches but they may be members of Churches which are in turn members of the World Council of Churches. An impossible situation arises if and when the World Council of Churches is designated in terms of this provision. Organizations whose objectives are laudable and acceptable should, however, not fall victim to the provisions of this clause just because they happen to have quasi-political matters to discuss. And is it not correct that probably 90% of our educated folk are in the civil service and yet they should be the yeast that is going to generate interest, thinking and expansion amongst the people themselves? This might result in a retardation of development of the intellectual people of the Transkei, because our civil servants are altogether muzzled. Then I suppose there must be certain organizations which are in the subconscious mind of the hon. the Chief Minister which are probably going to fall under the axe very soon, I think this House is entitled to know what organizations are contemplated at the present moment, CHIEF MINISTER: Strictly confidential. Mr GUZANA: If the Chief Minister says that that list is trictly confidential then I think the legislative body can be taken into that confidence because it is the supreme body which is legislating. CHIEF MINISTER: You must trust me. Have confidence in me, I will not act lightly. Mr GUZANA: The hon, the Chief Minister asks us

There may, however, be organisations which although not answering to the description of political organisation, pursue objectives which are prejudicial to the smooth functioning of the Government Service. You will appreciate that such a situation cannot be tolerated. It will be a sad day when civil servants are allowed to participate actively and freely in organisations whose aim is to undermine the Government. The proposed amendment will enable me to publish in the Official Gazette the organisations of which officers and employees of the Transkeian Government may not be members. After this has been done those who are or become members will be guilty of misconduct as defined in section 18 of the proclamation aforesaid. The penalties that may be imposed are listed in section 19(19) of Proclamation R.334 of 1963 as amended by Act No. 2 of 1965. Similar provision has been made in the Transkei Education Act and in the Prisons' Act and the Police Regulations also cover such cases. 4. The draft Bill to amend Proclamation R.334 of 1963 now before the House is, in my opinion, not a contentious one and I hope it will receive the full support of all the honourable members. 5. Mr. Chairman, I now move that the Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr. Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that this is not a contentious bill but one wonders sometimes how far-reaching innocent provisions may be when it comes to the practical application of the law in relation to civil servants. First of all, let me say that this side of the House does not oppose the provision whereby employees of institutions and missions, and employees of the Republican Government or any other Government may become members of the civil service in the Transkei. I am contemplating a situation where a member of the civil service, for instance in Great Britian, Joins the civil service of the Transkei and he is covered by this provision; and the fact that there will be no financial disability if he does join the Transkei civil service will, I am sure, be an inducement to dedicated men to render service to the Transkei in these offices of the Government. As regards the second provision, I have some reservations to which I would like to make reference. I think in the Republic there is a growing relaxation of the restriction on civil servants precluding

311

2

to have confidence in him but he does not seem to reciprocate that confidence to us as members of the Assembly. CHIEF MINISTER: Security matters are never disclosed to the public. Mr GUZANA: I was not aware that the provision relates to security matters, for the speech of the hon. the Chief Minister relates to organizations whose aim is to undermine the Government. CHIEF MINISTER: That's right it will secure the Government. Mr GUZANA: And now an organization that asks people to vote out the Government must be said to be undermining the Government, because past experience has brought us to the view that ordinary English words which we knew to have a certain meaning have acquired a connotation in South Africa altogether foreign to the original meaning. "Undermine" might mean something else, and Governments tend to identify themselves with the political party in power. The dictionary definition is quite clear as between a political party and a government, but from practical experience there seems to be a merging of the two and a political party in power identifies itself as a government. That is where the danger lies. And so I give this warning, that a party in power must not think that is is the State.

this respect. Civil servants are permitted to form their own organizations which are non-political. This section is very clear. It refers to a member of a partypolitical organization. It is a known fact and no Government can expect that human beings can have no political affiliations in themselves. It is well known that both in the Republic of South Africa and also in the Transkei civil servants have got their own political views. They are allowed to take part in voting and they vote according to their own political dictates, but what is and will not be allowed is for them to be members of party-political organizations. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made reference to a person who happens to join an innocuous body. Yes, that body perhaps might at the time of his joining appear to him to be an innocuous organization but when once that body has been by notice in the Official Gazette declared by the Chief Minister to be an organization of which a civil servant may not be a member, then it is up to that civil servant to know that that body has ceased to be innocuous. It is for that particular individual to desist then from being a member of such body. With regard to the time factor, surely it cannot be expected that the hon. the Chief Minister would declare an organization to be an undesirable organization today and then take action against persons who were members of such a body the following day. They will surely be given time within which to put themselves in the right. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made mention of the fact that about 90% of our intellectual folks are in the civil service. That is well and good. They are employed to carry on the work of the State. They are employed to work themselves up and make themselves in to a sound civil service which is the cornerstone of any government, and for goodness' sake to leave politics in the hands of those people who are politicians. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to the World Council of Churches and certain Churches belonging to this World Council of Churches. I think it is the duty of the members of the various Churches to tell their ministers to look after the souls of the people. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, no. CHIEF MINISTER: Hear, hear. Mr GUZANA: I can throw that one back at you. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I know you are capable of doing so. You know the ministers busy themselves too much with politics. Mr GUZANA: The hon. member for Tsolo will remember that, I hope. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There are many, many people who want to be converted into the Churches and they must do their job, and that is their job. With regard to the allegation by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that the teachers and civil servants have at one time busied themselves with politics and the Government closed their eyes towards such persons, I would have loved it if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition had drawn the attention of any Government members to such persons and actually saw them closing their eyes. With regard to those persons who were known to the Government to have taken part in party politics, appropriate action was taken and the hon. members squealed about it at one time. Mr GUZANA: Because whatever action was taken was sectional and did not deal with all. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If that was sectional it was only known to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr GUZANA : That is why I bring it up today.

It must know itself to be a party which should be undermined through the ballot box, but not think that this should not be done. Then just one last comment. Here is a civil servant belonging to an organization which he has regarded as altogether innocuous and the Chief Minister, in a state of agitated apprehension, names this organization in the Official Gazette. In effect it means now that a civil servant is a member of a named organization. I would like to have this assurance from the hon, the Chief Minister in those circumstances, that if an organization is named there will be time given to those who belong to that organization which has now been named to disentangle themselves from such an organization. Thus if the TNIP is named its members will be given thirty days within which to disentangle themselves before they become liable for misconduct. I am also happy to note that this provision is not retrospective and I am happy to note that there is no provision giving the Chief Minister power to make the naming retrospective. One would like to see a contented civil service in the Transkei and one becomes a bit worried when one realises that they will have to walk on thin ice all the time they are serving this Government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as I listened to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I came to a conclusion that he agrees with the first provision of this bill. With regard to the second, I am in a difficulty to fathom as to whether he is in agreement or whether he is in disagreement or whether he is in doubt. He made mention firstly of the fact that in the Republic of South Africa there has been a relaxation with regard to the prohibition of civil servants from taking part in party politics . If there is indeed such a relaxation then I must honestly say I am not aware of it. Mr GUZANA: The relaxation is by closing the eyes. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is a different thing to relax by closing the eyes and to relax by an enactment. Mr GUZANA: It shows the trend. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: All I know is that all over the country and the world civil servants are prohibited from taking part in party politics, and the Transkei is certainly not going to be an exception in

312

Mr GUZANA: How can they do that? CHIEF MINISTER : They can do it. Mr GUZANA: How? CHIEF MINISTER : No , you will know when I have to publish some of these in the Official Gazette how they will do it. Mr GUZANA: Are you promising that when you have named an organization you will make a report to this Assembly and give us reasons for that? CHIEF MINISTER: No, I will not. Mr GUZANA: Why not? How are we going to know then? CHIEF MINISTER : The reasons will be strictly confidential and we cannot publish them as they might affect the security of the state. Mr H. H. ZIBI : What is the position of the chiefs and headmen? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They are chiefs and headmen, not civil servants. CHIEF MINISTER: Now, the civil servants will be the servants of any Government that is voted into power, but the strength and stability of a government rests entirely on a sound civil service. You know what has recently taken place in Portugal. Those were civil servants who rose against the Government. Mr GUZANA: That is a dictatorship . They were intellectually strangled there. CHIEF MINISTER: No, we don't know what happened in Portugal. They were suppressed all the time, but the Government did not take note of that. A Government must watch for any signs of disloyalty. M ' r R. MADIKIZELA: The Government of Portugal did watch . Mr GUZANA: And stopped anything against the party in power. CHIEF MINISTER : I say any people who threaten the security of the Government should not be employed by the Government. You cannot bite the hand that feeds you. I am talking of any Government, and even if the Opposition were in power they will have a loyal civil service. I am trying to get this bill enacted in order that the Transkei should be safeguarded . Mr GUZANA: You have got Proclamation R400. CHIEF MINISTER: Now, as far as the Republican Government is concerned I want to let you know that the White people have been schooled in loyalty. Mr MADIKIZELA : In loyalty to a party. CHIEF MINISTER : To the Government. They are loyal to their Government . Now, as a young State we have got to school our own people to loyalty. ' Mr GUZANA: This sounds like a threat" you know. CHIEF MINISTER : We are schooling our young fellows to be loyal to the State. (Interjections). We have sufficient opposition from the members across the floor. Mr 'MADIKIZELA : Without the civil servants taking part? CHIEF MINISTER : So the civil service need not take part. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The Bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I have been requested by the hon. the Chief Minister to advise the House that the committee stage will be tomorrow.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Unfortunately at that time the hon. the Leader of the Opposition did not bring the attention of the Government to the fact that so-andso had taken part in party politics and had been left out. Mr GUZANA: They were the "good boys" of the Government. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If they were left out because they were the "good boys" of the Government then it was all the more necessary that the members of the Opposition should have drawn the attention of the Government to them and actually pointed out the individuals. I just had those remarks to make, Mr. Chairman, in support of the second reading of this bill. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members indeed we are in support of the first clause of this bill, but when it comes to Clause 2 we have our doubts and reservations . How are we going to determine membership in the first instance ? How is the Government going to say that so-and-so is a member of this particular organization against which they seek to legislate? Are they going to call for registers from the organizations to find out if the names of the persons they hope to pursue or to persecute - are there? Further, the hon. the Minister of Justice says that it is about time the Churches and ministers concerned themselves with the souls of the people, but the souls of the people are not suspended in space. (Interjections) The souls of the people are contained in their bodies and the Churches and the ministers are interested in the bodies of the people. The Churches must concern themselves in house arrests, they must concern themselves in all forms of injustice which are often the product of politics . 'MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They are ministers of religion, not Ministers of Justice. Mr MADIKIZELA: In religion we happen to be concerned with people, and both the bodies and the souls of the people are the concern of the ministers and the Churches, so that when it comes to Clause 2, Mr. Chairman and hon, members, we are certainly going to cause trouble in this bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Cause as much trouble as ' you can. CHAIRMAN : Hon, members, I think comments have been sufficiently made in connection with this bill. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the clause which appears to be contentious in so far as the Opposition speakers are concerned relates to all public servants irrespective of their party affiliations. The existence of any state depends on a very efficient and loyal civil service. Mr MADIKIZELA: With emphasis on "loyal". CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, the civil service should be loyal, and loyal to any Government in power. Now, the present Government is having this legislation not that it should only apply when it is in power. It should also apply when there is an alternative Government. Mr GUZANA : We shall amend it immediately if we come in. CHIEF MINISTER: Political participation of civil servants actively can damage the running of the state. I want to make it clear that civil servants are state servants. They are not the servants of a particular Government. They serve the community as a whole; they have got to be loyal to the country as a whole. That is why they are paid officials. They are paid in order that they should work for the existence of the State. Now, can you imagine when the civil servants are allowed to work for the destruction of the State?

The Assembly adjourned.

AFTERNOON SESSION FOREST AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, I move that the House convert itself into committee. MINISTER OF ROADS: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. 313

House in Committee, Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2

original Act itself. Here they are only changed because the botanical names used previously are no more used now. Mr MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, I appreciate your

Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Will the hon. Minister please motivate for the benefit of the man who does not understand English, because there is no Xhosa version of the bill. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, it is greatly regretted that the Xhosa version is not available. This is not done to inconvenience any of the members. The main thing in this section is to make it easy to calculate the volume of the timber so that the mass of the logs is calculated, and also . Mr K. M. GUZANA: What do you mean by "mass"? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The metric system. ' Mr GUZANA: What does it mean? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In this way the volume and the mass of timber may be calculated. For instance, we have stacks at the sawmills of various types of timber and it is stacked in layers. In that way it will be known, by calculating it in this fashion, the quantity of the timber there. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : 'Mr Chairman, I want this to be made clear to me. This sale of wood was done previously and I don't know whether charges are not going to be increased. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The tariffs are

appreciation of the fact that new members, perhaps, do not know the meaning of this, but even the old members of the House . . . MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I have referred them to the Act. Mr MGUDLWA: They haven't got it. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They can obtain it. 'Mr MGUDLWA: Old members are supplied with a gazette which contains the Act but what about the new members who are not supplied with that gazette? (Interjections). MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They must buy it. The Department of the Interior supplies Acts to any member who wants them. They can purchase them from the department. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, here is a point we are trying to put over. It is the fact that in the original Act there is this botanical terminology and he now seeks to substitute the terminology we see in this amendment, but to ordinary members it is still as much Greek to the new members as the original Act is. Further, Mr Chairman, what is before the House now is the amendment and not the original Act. That is why we want this explanation. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is sufficient explanation given in English and in Latin, but I told the House they would get the translation in Xhosa in due course. That the translation into Xhosa is not available today is unavoidable. Clause 4 put and agreed to. Clause 5 put and agreed to. Schedule passed to stand part of the bill. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed.

not going to be raised in any way. The only thing that is being done is to convert this to the metric system, because feet and yards are no longer used. We reckon now in metres. The price is the same in rands and cents. It is no longer in pounds, shillings and pence. (Interjections). DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order. There is too much noise. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, the members are not acquainted with this new method of calculating, using metres and centimetres and we would like this to be motivated, more so because of the absence of the Xhosa version, for the benefit of most of the members who are not acquainted with any other language except Xhosa. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, this section affects the terminology here, where before they used the measurement of five miles. This is now going to be converted to ten kilometres instead of five miles. That is all it means. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Although five miles is not equal to ten kilometres? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: It is approximate. Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Forest Amendment Bill has been approved by this committee without amendment. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I propose that the bill be read a third time on 8th May. NON-COMPENSATION TO WHITES FOR RECENT IMPROVEMENTS TO PROPERTIES ' Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government not to compensate any Whites still resident in the Black-zoned areas for their recent and unnecessary improvements to their properties with a view to receiving fantastic prices when they decide to sell to the Adjustment Committee." Mr Chairman, I am very thankful that I have had the opportunity of introducing this motion this year, because last session the House was prorogued before this motion came up for discussion. The treatment we receive from the Whites of the Transkei is really painful because with the advent of the zoning of some of the Transkeian towns the Afrikaners decided and saw the opportunity of renovating their dilapidated buildings. Some of these houses were put up with what we call Kimberley bricks and what has happened is that the Whites plastered these mud walls with cement and the walls are veneered with paint in order to catch the eye and give the impression that the houses are well built. The owner of this dilapidated structure then asks

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: ' Mr Chairman, because these are botanical terms which, in fact, I do not know whether the hon. Minister is very conversant with . . . (Interjections). DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order. What is happening to this House? Mr MGUDLWA: I would in fact it is my fervent prayer to the hon. ' Minister that he should motivate and, in fact, he must explain to us what the context and the actual meaning of these things are as they are put down in the bill. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I appreciate the difficulty of some of the members of this House, because some of them do not have the original Act where the names of all these trees are translated into Xhosa. I would only refer them to the

314

a fantastic price for this structure. The man who is a prospective buyer is put in an invidious position because he has to borrow money from the XDC in order to purchase this house. The XDC demands interest on the amount borrowed. Sometimes it is postulated that the houses have been bought by the Bantu Trust and when a prospective buyer goes to make inquiries he is asked how much he is offering for the building. The prospective buyer will make an offer but he is not told that the White person sold the house for so much. Another prospective buyer comes and makes his own offer and then we find that we reduce this to the state of a market where the goods go to the highest bidder. That kind of treatment which is meted out to us is very painful. Where I come from in Cofimvaba there are certain Whites who are erecting buildings on their vacant erven at this moment. These Whites are quite aware of our deliberations in this Parliament - namely, that in the not far distant future they will be vacating these areas. It is not a concealed fact that it has been accepted that we shall gain independence and the Prime Minister of the Republic has indicated that he will not stand in the way of our getting independence. As these Whites are now persisting in putting up new buildings in the Black-zoned areas one would like to know what is their aim. Will they not complain when we get our independence and we tell them they will not be compensated for what they have now put up? It is time that they knew the old adage that a "nqoma" beast never belongs to the one who is enjoying the milk. It is quite plain and clear that the land of our forefathers is reverting to our possession. On the other hand I would not blame their attitude because even in Holy Writ it is said they shall dwell in the houses you never put up. They can carry on and erect these structures and our sons will take occupation. I would like to sound a note of warning to those gentlemen before we reach independence : Please put a stop to erecting buildings on land that does not belong to you. We have understood now that even the South African Bantu Trust time and again has refused to pay out on account of the fact that the prices called for are prohibitive. The XDC is also reluctant to make advances to the prospective buyer in as much as these prices have been so inflated. There is this awkward day that we shall come to - the day when the Transkei shall be independent and free of the tethers that tie it to Pretoria and they will have to decide their own fate. I don't want them to be obsessed with the idea that such members as Tshunungwa are evil-minded . We want to stay alongside them peacefully but we don't want any of these evil machinations where a building is taken, well known to the public as being old, a superficial veneer of plaster is applied, and an exorbitant price is demanded. They complained when I said last session that they had long been leeches on us. They are still sticking their proboscis right into our blood even though independence is on the threshold.

They will owe allegiance to the Government of the Transkei. Even when they want trading rights they will know the proper procedure to take ― right from the tribal authorities to the regional authorities and so on. What I am aiming at is this: Let us plan ahead in order that we should not find ourselves in a quandary later on because the renovations they are effecting in their properties are aimed purely at suppressing and sucking more energy and the wealth of the Black man . When I speak on this note I am reminded of many Transkeian citizens who are anxious and willing to pay for vacant erven, but they find the prices prohibitive. Even these houses they offer for sale are full of cracks. A shameful state of affairs is often experienced when the sale ultimately succeeds, dilapidated as the house is, and all the household amenities are cut off, such as electricity, water and the rest. Now, those things are perpetrated by a supposed civilized society. I am proud of some of our countrymen who are much more advanced than some of the Whites. You can imagine a situation where you have offered your building for sale and you become a catalyst in some of the amenities attached to that building. What really is a thorn in their flesh is that they had never conceived the idea that they would ever march out of the Transkei. Where we have a unique situation is where they don't want to go and join their own fellowmen. The reason is that our blood is very nutritive to these people. They have seen they will be unable to exist and thrive when they join the ranks of their own people. I trust that this House and this Government will convey the request contained in this motion to Pretoria in order to enable the citizens of the Transkei not to pay excessive prices for these houses while a note of warning and advice has already been given by this House. They boast of the fact that it is their property and they can effect whatever change they wish to their property. They must understand that the assumption of such arrogance will lead to their being put in an unenviable position in the future, because once we get our independence and they decide to join with us in this our motherland they will have to follow suit with our Government and its laws. Mr M. C. Botha has told them that they should not put the blame at the door of his administration. I am going to appeal to the hon. members on the Opposition side that this motion be unanimously passed by this House because we are considering the ordinary worker from the Transkei who toils year in and year out. When he wants to invest his money in buying property he finds that the prices are prohibitive. I hope that we shall be ad idem in passing this motion. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second, Mr Chairman. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, whilst in fact this side of the House is ad idem with the mover of the motion we feel that we have got to make some remarks pertaining to the motion. I am glad to participate in the motion by the hon. Mr T, E. ka-Tshunungwa. Whilst so thinking, because we have got that line of thought in so far as this Assembly is concerned whilst so thinking about the motion that faces the White man, what of when you think of the Black man who wants to sell now? For example, I want an exit permit to Britain. I no longer require any South African citizenship apart from the fact that I have no South African citizenship because I am a native of the Transkei - a Native male as defined by this section of my reference book (Laughter) which was issued to me recently. Now, hon. members, I have to say in support of this motion that in so far as the

I have heard those who have claimed they are Tembus and will never march out of this country. I know in my own area there are those who have said they will be the last to leave the Transkei. The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development Mr M. C. Botha, has publicly declared that those Whites who choose to remain in the Transkei must not blame anyone should they find circumstances adverse to their wishes. Should the day come when we attain our independence while they are present amongst us we shall not ask them what prices they are demanding for their structures. They will stay together with us in this land.

motion is concerned it pleases me beyond all doubt, but

315

it displeases me in so far as the actual connotation of it is concerned, in that in fact, you know, really, as I have recently put it, what of the person who wants to sell and wants to leave, be he yellow, brown or mauve? The truth is the truth and nothing else but the truth, Mr Chairman. You know the Whites build wherever they please because they know they are not moved anywhere. With us it is only if you build in an administrative area you know that your rights are fortified, even if in fact they are not fortified there, and we have in fact bought from this XDC genuine firewood in these buildings which have been taken over by the XDC and sold to us. Those buildings have been taken over from the Whites. That is a fact found and proved. Think of when a Black man like myself, having nothing, but he has to pay such an exorbitant price for such genuine firewood. (Laughter) Fairness is fairness. It surprises me that the hon. chief my brother, always interjects when I am talking but he never stands up to talk. (Laughter) When will these things be settled in fact? It is from a White Government that we are asking for this thing to be settled . In fact, about the White people - that is, the accused in this motion ... .. (Laughter) Just wait, let me speak, Mr Chairman, and let me speak in this wise. Look at the sheep walking up to a wolf and then asking the wolf to tell them how to make a living. Fancy the sheep approaching the wolf and asking him how they can make a living! (Laughter) What about coming together and finding ways and means of dealing with this matter successfully? The chief from Mqanduli says we have met. Mr Smith was satisfied with the conditions existing in Salisbury, but how did the Government of Britain deal with that situation? Mr KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Support the motion. Why do you try and water this thing down? Mr MGUDLWA: Please, Mr Chairman, on my behalf, as far as the remarks made by the hon. gentleman from Kentani are concerned . . . CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please stick to the motion.

selling their properties under these circumstances, are now indulging in a jackpot. (Laughter) I have this example to give. There is a certain White man who, when putting up his building, collected stones from the administrative area. He did not get them from his own yard and he charged an exorbitant price for that property. I shall mention that even the White people who have their properties in the villages got their bricks from the soil outside their properties in the administrative area. You wll note, Mr Chairman, that in my place we don't charge them for the ground they collect and yet they transport that ground to build their properties. If the Republican Government would understand me well, it would be appropriate for us to give these Whites their windows and doors and let them go. I say this because they have occupied these houses for so long and in doing so they have had their compensation in that long occupation of their dwellings. If the Republican Government wants to be faithful it must show us why these people should not sell their houses reasonably. The Transkeian people are greatly worried when they see the White people selling their properties in such a wicked manner. I would suggest that it would have been appropriate for the buyer to go to the house with the magistrate and see whether it is in proper condition. The seller of the property quotes his price and the magistrate agrees that that price must stand. We are not sure whether the magistrates are enjoying the same benefit from this, but as far as we are concerned we are not satisfied with the procedure. I feel confident when I refer to the jackpot that is being conducted by these Whites. It is difficult for me to understand why a man should effect the purchase of the building in the magistrate's office and not on the site. I believe that both sides of the House will be unanimous in supporting this motion because it is the feeling of the people of the Transkei that it must be as it is proposed in the motion. If the Republican Government does not hasten to allow the people of the Transkei to buy these properties it means they will be obstructing the progress of the people of the Transkei. We have many Africans who have sufficient cash and there is not one who is prepared to take his money and throw it into the water.

Mr MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I was appealing to you to intervene on my behalf because the hon, member for Kentani passed a certain remark. He said why must I pass water in connexion with this matter, whereas the mover of the motion said I was watering it down. (Interjections). That should be made clear if it is said I am lowering the dignity of this House. Mr Chairman, as this motion has been so worded we have, as an Opposition • to make certain remarks. In Engcobo I have seen them putting up new supermarkets and garages and it must be realised that I am powerful, and in fact I am strong. You must not just pinpoint a White person. Even black as I am I will go overseas and noone will stop me from doing so. (Interjections).

Most Africans have observed that these properties are not sold in an appropriate manner. If you go to Cofimvaba you will find that people like Mr Geyer are just beginning to build now, and yet Cofimvaba was zoned a long time ago . Mr Short has just started building and yet Cofimvaba was zoned long ago. We don't know why we are put in this position because building in this manner is only going to jeopardise the next buyer. When the White man was still a citizen of the Transkei he did not build as he is doing now. If you go round the Transkei villages you will observe that the White people are very busy starting to build now, although they have been in those villages for a long time. The fact of the matter is that when the White people leave the Transkei they want to get as much money as possible from the Black people. Mr Chairman, I request that the Republican Government must take note of what is happening in the Transkei. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I stand up to contribute to the debate on this motion by the hon. member for Cofimvaba. As far as I am concerned, this motion was unnecessary because there are established rules which guide the buyer and the seller. It is the law of demand and supply. If a commodity is very much in demand by the people the price rises. If the commodity is not greatly needed the

CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Come to the motion, hon. member. 'Mr MGUDLWA: No, hon, Minister, you can also read the motion. Mr Chairman, I am being insulted and nothing is said when I am so insulted. I thank you, Mr Chairman, and I beg to sit down. ACTING CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, the motion being discussed by this House is very important - so important that I anticipated that the hon, member for Engcobo would support this motion because he knows the conditions. I suppose that something has gone amiss and that is why he was not able to support the motion properly. Before I discuss the motion fully I want to point out that our people find it difficult to cope with these exorbitant prices. I believe that the White people, in

316

building there, the reply is usually that Mr. Matanzima will pay them and they can then leave immediately. It is my sincere request that this motion should be given consideration by all the hon. members of this House. These White people who are still remaining here should give us room. They should go away. They must release the stores they have because there are people who want these shops. They are bringing us a lot of difficulties. Mr Chairman, when our people from Sophiatown were told they had to move and they said they did not want to go, their buildings were bulldozed. I must give a warning to the White people who are in the Transkei and who refuse to leave the Transkei because they are enjoying sucking our blood if there is a law which caused our people to be driven out of Sophiatown and their buildings bulldozed, the White people who are still here should know that we will apply that law to them . One may think, Mr Chairman, that we are driving The White people away from the Transkei. It is not we who are responsible for that. It is the policy. The policy requires that it should be followed and it states that the Whites should be removed from the Transkei and that they should leave their shops which should be taken over by the Black traders. Because they will not go away we were compelled to pilot this motion which seeks that they should leave the Transkei. If they were ignorant they should at least have realised by now that they should not carry on with the construction of more buildings. It is beyond all doubt that the reason they are renovating their old buildings and putting up new buildings is because they are aiming at making a lot of money through the sale of their stores. However, we are aware of their wiles and we say they should leave. The White people in the town of Port St. John's are determined that they will never leave that heaven of theirs. They do not care for the policy which states that Port St. John's belongs to Chief Faku . If that land belonged to Faku it is time we got that town. The White people who live there have been told now that the area is being given to us and they should not build any more. If they continue to build we will draw their attention to the law which states they should not build any more. Mr Chairman, I firmly support this motion by the hon member. I am quite sure that even the attorneys whose interest it is to speak on behalf of the White people, the attorneys who are members of this House, will today understand this. I cannot see eye to eye with those people who say they have to pick up certain points and debate about them. Are they employed by the White people? What is the matter with them? Is it necessary that people should say something against a move that will be of benefit to the people? I am sure these hon. members will understand that we are not in agreement with them when they constantly raise objections whenever anything is brought up in this House. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker on this motion will be the last before we call on the mover to reply. 'Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I support the motion before the House but I wish to make a few remarks about certain things which are not good in this motion. (Interjections) What is being discussed here is the construction of buildings and now some distinction has been made in regard to Black-zoned areas. It has been stated that any building which has been erected in a Black area should be reduced in price. Nevertheless, people should not be stopped from constructing buildings in such areas.

price falls. That is a well-known fact and it does not have to be applied according to colour. What I mean is that if the people of the Transkei refuse to buy these houses the prices will drop. Mr KA-SHUNUNGWA: In other words , you are against this motion? Mr JAFTA: What I wish to drive home is that when the owner of the house occupies that building he has the right to ask his own price. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr JAFTA: It is the duty of the buyer to examine his interest in that house. If you buy a house that has been built of raw bricks without investigating properly, that is your own fault. (Interjections) It is your duty as the buyer to find out how this house was built. If you suspect anything it is your duty to find out from the owner whether he built it with raw or burnt bricks. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr JAFTA: It is the buyer who must satisfy him self and find out whether he is satisfied or not with the deal. The innovations and improvements to the house which is now occupied by the owner are something which should be investigated by the prospective buyer. I have already mentioned that the price of a commodity in demand is always high, and if there is no demand the price drops. If we don't wish to pur chase these buildings we need not buy them, and as a result the prices will drop. If the owner of the property decides to put up a new building he is doing that at his own risk. (Interjections). GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Sit down. Mr JAFTA: It is the property-owner who must understand that when conditions are as they are now it is unnecessary for him to build a new house. If the magistrate is selling a certain property and he gets no buyers he will be compelled to lower the price of the ' house. I also do not encourage people to put up new houses on stands which they know they will have to leave ultimately. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order. Hon members, please be quiet. Mr JAFTA: However, if they do build they will be doing that at their own risk. It is for these people to know that they must not build when they know they will not get good prices. I agree to the motion stipulating that these people should stop putting up new dwellings. (Interjections) . Every commodity is governed by popular demand. (General disorder). Mr B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I support the motion whole-heartedly as moved by the hon, member for Cofimvaba, Mr T. E. ka-Tshunungwa. Mr Chairman, this is a clear motion and I do not know why we should appear as people on a football ground playing soccer. It is our contention that as from the date of zoning in any area a White man who fell into the Black zone and started building should not be compensated for such structure. It amount to this, that if this motion is successful, as I believe it will be, the White people who put up buildings in area zoned for Blacks will not be compensated as from that date. The policy which we are following is that the Transkei belongs to the Black people. This means that the people who are causing us a lot of headaches are the White people who are still remaining in the Transkei. I do not know why they should still be here. The Whites who are still in the Transkei when others have already left - why should they refuse to move away from the Transkei? In Port St. John's there are three shopowners who are still there. Since they heard that they should leave they started putting up new buildings. When you ask them why they should start 317

If a person desires to put up a building in a Black area he should be allowed to do so because he is doing it on our behalf. Why must you refuse him the right to do so? (Laughter) . There is one thing good and there is one thing bad. These people who have been putting up buildings in Black-zoned areas should be allowed to put up these buildings, but at the same time they should realise we have no money. If they sell they must be put up for sale at reasonable prices. (Laughter). The one thing that is bad is that some of these buildings which have been constructed of raw bricks, such as police stations, have now been put up for sale at exorbitant prices. Those buildings have been put up with our own money and now they are being put up for sale at these exorbitant prices. What worries me greatly is that you say this motion refers to certain areas only, although these people have so ruined you. (Laughter). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE: When these people got those ' buildings or lands or sites from the people who originally owned them, having paid negligible amounts , the present owners are now offering the same sites at high prices to us. For example, at my place a certain Mr Sparg acquired certain landed property and he sold this property to the XDC. The XDC now has a double sale in connexion with the same property. It has been divided into two and rent is being paid on both sections, and yet the XDC paid one lump sum for the whole building although it is now exacting rental from two people who are paying high rentals for each section. Take the charge office-rent is now being paid for that charge office and yet they never bought it. It is a house that belonged to the Government. In that way I maintain that the selling price of those properties should be reduced and not increased, but these people should not be stopped from putting up new buildings. If a person puts up a building on his site you cannot say to that person he must stop building, because you can do anything with that building. You can sell it if you want. Now that person has previously been warned.

strangulation. With the advent of this policy of separate development, which has given us the Transkei, then we must not in our jubilation still shed tears. We have been forced by circumstances beyond our control to be a subservient race. The question of land has always been the crux in determining who shall rule, and if the Transkei is going to be ruled by us all the inhabitants of this territory must be in peace. We don't want to occupy these properties in pains, because the exorbitant prices that are put before us by the magistrate mean only one thing - that I will die before I have finished paying even the XDC that lent me the money. A person who is lucky to receive a loan from the XDC is always in a state of anxiety because if a person has been loaned money and he dies, the wife and the children are kicked out. The insidious immigration laws of South Africa make it possible for many Europeans to come and flood this country, leaving the aborigines of this country landless and homeless. There have been so many Whites from all over the country coming into the Transkei and now it is difficult for them to get out of the Transkei. I want also to make this request: We must be told what the value of the property was before a man has to pay out money. Evaluation must be clear because what is actually happening as I have said, is like auctioneering now. Just to go back a little into history, Hitler was definitely correct in condemning the Treaty of Versailles which put the German people under subjugation, hence the German youth had to be taught history. We don't want to teach our daughters and sons how we have been mishandled because history evokes hatred. We are at the present moment negotiating, having a dialogue with them peacefully. We don't know what our sons will say to them. This House has to be made clean now whilst we understand one another as man to man. The XDC must not just lavishly hand money over to the White man because of the promises made to them that they should be compensated . It is not fair to adequately compensate these men at the expense and tears of the buyer.

Even in Port St. John's they should be allowed to put up those buildings. If we are given Port St. John's those people will sell their properties at an amount which will be dictated by us. (Interjections). We expect the Government to make suitable arrangements to lower the price of those properties. The White people should not be driven away, but they should leave the Transkei of their own accord. Everything should be on a par, even the money, and anyone who does not want to agree to such terms is at liberty to leave the country. In so saying, I shall resume my seat. I like this motion, but something should be added to it. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in winding up my motion I wish to express my gratitude for some of the very good contributions to the motion. Naturally, I discard the puerile remarks from childish people. The purpose of this motion is to see that justice is done. The entire area of South Africa is mainly occupied by Whites who are men of European descent. Governments have come and Governments have gone and now we are ruled by a Government that has introduced apartheid, and in our acceptance of the policy of separate development, justice must be done. There are, of course, apartheid barriers and if this is God-ordained the Whites should not have crossed the oceans to interfere with our domestic affairs in the southern hemisphere. We have been robbed of our political and even social rights by the Whites and we have been rendered to financial

I have quoted this analogy of Hitler because my motion has to be construed against this background. We are not exceptions to the rest of the nations of the world. What we want is justice, and justice has to be seen to be done. Then we shall say Hurrah! to those architects of the policy of separate development. We have struggled very hard to get to where we are now educationally. Our mothers have toiled hard as washerwomen, as kitchenmaids. We managed to get this piece of education through the sweating of our parents. The meagre savings we have had must not be exploited to the detriment of the people of the Transkei . We are not going to enrich the Afrikaner. With those few words, I have really been moved as one can observe from the expression on my face. I am worried and I have been thoroughly moved by the events that are taking place. We must know the original value of these buildings from the word go. Even when these buildings have to be sold now, we would like a valuator to valuate the present value of the house so that if it cost R1 000 we must not be charged R2 000. We are not sheep. If you are shearing and you cut the skin of the sheep it does not bleed. It is only Christ when He was crucified who did not cry out. The child that does not cry dies on the mother's back. Let us put right the question of these houses while there is still time. Motion put and carried unanimously.

318

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 7th May, 1974.

due course. The Department is negotiating with the XDC to act as the agent. "The Qaukeni Regional Authority has already been informed of the Departments attitude and the matter will be discussed with the Regional Authority in the near future."

TUESDAY, 7th MAY, 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

QUESTION No. 29: Mr H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : "In view of the statistical information recently given to the House in respect of the death rate of livestock in the Transkei is there still any justifiable reason why people should not be allowed to introduce livestock freely into the Transkei without conditions attached as the said livestock losses adversely affect the country's economy?" REPLY: "The fact that permits are issued for the introduction of livestock into the Transkei negates the view that introduction of importation could be free and unconditional. However the Government is equally aware of the severe losses suffered by farmers from Red Water fever and other diseases throughout the Territory. In that light therefore every effort will be made to restore and regenerate the livestock industry to its maximum capacity without impairing the grazing potential of the land. Officers of the Department have already been appraised of the dire need to rejuvenate our livestock industry with a view to enhancing the economy and well-being of the country." Mr ZIBI: Mr Chairman, I thank the hon. ' Minister for his reply. What I want to know is when this rejuvenation to which the hon. Minister refers is to take place. In other words, what is the modus operandi to be? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The hon. member wants to know how the rejuvenation of the livestock will take place, but I think the matter has been sufficiently explained . QUESTION No. 30: Mr H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education : "(a) In the new structure is the Department going to offer Latin in our Secondary and High Schools as a subject? (b) Or is it going to maintain the same attitude as that of the Department of Bantu Education with regard to the teaching of the said subject? (c) If so what arrangements will be made for students who desire to take law when they get to post-matric level?"

ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I received several messages from the hon, member for Tabankulu, Mr C. Diko, that as a result of impassable roads he was not able to get to the main road to catch a bus to Umtata. I have passed over to the Secretary one of these telegrams. Again, Mr Chairman the hon. the Minister of Health is away on duty elsewhere and I move that the absence of these hon. members should be condoned by this House. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr W. S. MBANGA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table the Report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts 1974. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon, members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill to amend the Transkei Education Act 1966, Act No. 9 of 1966. The bill has no financial implications, Mr Chairman, and I move that it be read for the first time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to . The bill was read a first time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I think in fact, I must say I am certain ―- that the second reading will take place tomorrow. That will be the 8th May.

QUESTIONS QUESTION No. 28: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "Will the Hon. 'Minister kindly make a statement in the House about the Co -operative Cattle Farming Society of Eastern Pondoland Ltd.? What progress has been made, etc. , etc.? REPLY : "The Co-operative Cattle Farming Society of Eastern Pondoland, as originally envisaged, has not been established yet. This project was to have been financed from the Transkeian Development Fund and would thus have incurred heavy commitments on the part of the Transkeian Government in terms of funds, staff and equipment. My Department reconsidered the matter in the light of the foregoing and decided not to recommend the establishment of the Society as envisaged originally, to the Minister and the Registrar of Co -operatives. Instead, negotiations are underway to establish a company on the agency basis in which Transkeian citizens of Eastern Pondoland can become shareholders. Transkeian shareholders will have representatives on the Board of Directors in proportion to the number of shares they hold. The function of the agent will be to provide the bulk of the initial capital requirements as well as competent management and the required expertise. In addition, the agent will provide the necessary training at all levels of management to enable Transkeians to take over the company completely in

REPLY: "(a) As in the past, Latin will be offered as an optional subject. (b) This statement is not understood as the Department of Bantu Education also offers Latin as an optional subject. (c) This question falls away but, for the information of the questioner, Latin is no longer a requirement for the study of law." Mr ZIBI: Mr Chairman, what is the substitute for Latin? I am asking this because we know that some of the students have failed because they had no Latin. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Who told you that ? You collect a lot of untruths and come and tell them in this House. QUESTION No. 31 : Mr H. Pamla asked the Minister of the Interior: "(a) How many registered voters entitle an electoral division to two or three elected members of the

319

Dr G. Draper Dr B. Draper Dr Mills Dr Sigmund (ii) Is it correct that of this list some of the doctors will soon be leaving and why will they be leaving? (iii) What has the Public Service Commission done on the recruitment of doctors for Government and/or Mission Hospitals? REPLY : "(a) Yes. (b) His contract of service expires on 12th July, 1974. He is now on terminal leave. (c) It is not in the interests of the parties concerned to divulge this information publicly; however, if the Honourable Member would care to discuss this matter with me in my office, I shall be quite prepared to give him the required information. (d) (i) Dr Jodrey : Principal Medical Officer Dr G. Draper : Intern Dr B. Draper : Intern Dr Mills : Intern Dr Sigmund : Principal Medical Officer (ii) None of these doctors have resigned. (iii) The Public Service Commission falls under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance and the question should be addressed to that department .” QUESTION No. 35: Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : "In view of the fact that the Sneezewood tree provides valuable and strong timber for fencing and other purposes, why is it not permissible for mature trees to be sold to Transkeian citizens since many such trees are allowed to rot in the forests?"

Legislative Assembly? (b) Is your department having any plans about increasing the number of elected members on the basis of registered voters?" REPLY : "(a) The number of members for each electoral division is controlled by section 26( 1 ) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act 48 of 1963) , which reads as follows : 'There shall be twenty-six electoral divisions for the election of the forty-five elected members of the Legislative Assembly, and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters in the various electoral divisions : provided that there shall be elected at least one member in respect of each electoral division'. It will therefore be observed that the number of members of an electoral division is affected by its number of registered voters in proportion to the total number of registered voters of all the 26 electoral divisions . (b) No." QUESTION No. 32 : Mr H. Pamla asked the Minister of the Interior: "(a) Is there a real good reason why election results take so long to be announced e.g. 14 days taken in the case of the Umzimkulu by-election? (b) What was the response of the registered voters in the urban areas in the last by-election of Umzimkulu?"

REPLY : "(a) A delay in the announcement of elections results is inevitable due to the fact that the Electoral Officer must await the results from 352 returning officers in the Transkei, the Republic of South Africa and the territory of South West Africa before a final count can be made. (b) It is not clear whether the questioner refers to urban areas in the Transkei or the Republic of South Africa. Whatever the position may be, my Department has no information in this respect." QUESTION No. 33: Mr H. Pamla asked the Minister of Health: "(a) Does the department supervise and control the training of auxilliary nurses in mission hospitals that fall within the boundaries of the Transkei? (b) (i) Are there any African representatives in the mission hospital boards? (ii) If there are any, how are they elected to these boards ?" REPLY : "(a) No. (b) (i) Yes. (ii) Board members are appointed by the Mission Authorities in accordance with the constitution of their various Hospital Boards." QUESTION No. 34: Mr R. S. Madikizela on behalf of Mr K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of Health : "(a) Is it correct that Mr H. Cohen, principal specialist in the Umtata hospital has left the hospital? (b) If so, why did he leave? (c) If he left because his contract of service was not renewed, can the Honourable the Minister of Health say why his contract of service was not renewed ? (d) (i) In what specific posts are the following doctors working in the Umtata Hospital? Dr Jodrey

REPLY : "Sneezewood trees are reserved or protected by Section 7 of the Forest Act, 1969. Living trees which are capable of producing seed for the regeneration of the forests are not sold. Dead trees and those which have to be removed for the construction and maintenance of roads are available for sale and are being sold under permits issued by the Director of Forestry, Sneezewood is very durable and does not rot easily but treated poles are also durable and are available for sale at the Preservation Plant at Umtata." QUESTION No. 36: Mr J. M. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Education : "(a) Whether the Department is aware of the case of the late Mr Mpahlwa of Isikobeni School, Idutywa, the circumstances of which are: (i) that on the closing day he received his cheque of R84,00 ; (ii) that a few days after, he died, but before cashing the cheque; (iii) that the cheque was subsequently handed over to the Department to be made in favour of his widow ; (iv) that when she later received the cheque it was an amount much less than the amount originally reflected on the cheque - to wit R35,00? (b) Is the Department aware that the same position obtained in the case of the late Miss Mvunguvungu of Sebeni , Willowvale, who received a cheque of R50,00 but that when the cheque was made over to her mother it had been reduced to R25,00? 320

raised by the hon. member has no relevance to the matter under consideration now. However, I believe if a case as he states would ever occur in the near future there would be no difficulty in dealing with the matter as it arises. The department would deal with it with a great deal of competence if ever such a situation arises. QUESTION No. 39: Chief S. M. Lebenya asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: “(a) Is it true that a White Senior Stock Inspector in the Maluti Region was on the transfer list two years ago and he refused such a transfer? (b) If so, was there no sufficiently qualified Black Officer to replace the said White Senior Stock Inspector then?" REPLY : "(a) No. (b) Falls away."

(c) What would have been the position if the deceased persons had already cashed their cheques? (d) What is the policy of the Department with regard to a teacher who having received his cheque, dies during the course of the month, but before cashing?" REPLY : "(a) Yes. Excepting that the amounts reflected are not correct and that payments were made to the deceased's Estate and not to a relative, the circumstances are as stated. The reason for the reduced amount finally paid in respect of salary and allowances, is that payment is effected only up to and including the date of death. (b) Same as (a). (c) A claim would have been lodged with the Estate for whatever amount had been overpaid. (d) Without the teacher's signature the cheque cannot be cashed and must therefore be returned to the Department where, if necessary, an adjustment is made and a fresh cheque issued in favour of the deceased's Estate."

TRANSKEIAN APPRENTICESHIP BILL, 1974 : SECOND READING MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, I rise to explain the main purposes and principles embodied in the Transkeian Apprenticeship Bill. As stated in my policy speech, the Bill will doubtless be especially welcomed by employers and prospective apprentices alike, particularly having regard to the fact that the cumbersome administrative procedure prescribed by the Republican Apprenticeship Act, 1944, as amended, has thus far precluded my department from introducing a system of apprenticeship in the area of its jurisdiction. The introduction of our own apprenticeship system had perforce also to be delayed in order to allow for the establishment of a Technical College in Umtata to provide for the theoretical and practical training of apprentices and for their trade-testing prior to the issue of certificates of competency in one or other of the recognised trades. The Bill now before the Assembly is based largely on the Republican Apprenticeship Act already referred to, but has been modified in certain respects to render the legislation more appropriate to conditions prevailing in the Transkei. It represents a positive and systematic effort to regulate the training and employment of apprentices in various trades, necessitated chiefly by the rapid growth and diversifcation of industrial and other related development within the Transkei. The Bill provides for the establishment of an Apprenticeship Board consisting of official and non-official members whose main function shall be to make recommendations regarding the trades to be designated for purposes of apprenticeship, the qualifications and minimum ages required of apprentices, the period of apprenticeship, the rates of remuneration of apprentices, the classes and full-time technical training which apprentices shall attend, the general conditions of work of apprentices, the tests or examinations which apprentices shall undergo, the minimum or maximum number of apprentices to be employed in any designated trade or by any employer, etc. Further provision is made for the appointment of a Director of Apprenticeship and such other officers as may be necessary for carrying out the provisions of the Act. In this respect, the appointment of inspectors to undertake on-the-spot investigations of the practical implementation of the requirements of the apprenticeship scheme is of particular importance to employers and apprentices alike. The Bill also provides for any employer or appren-

QUESTION No. 37: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Health : "Referring to Question No. 24, replied on 30.4.74, I request the Honourable Minister to kindly specify as follows with regard to the 113 clinics authorised : (a) How many tribal clinics ? (b) How many district clinics have already been built? (c) How many are actually in operation? (d) Can these be named please?" REPLY : "(a) 64 Tribal Authority clinics . (b) None. (c) None. (d) Falls away." QUESTION No. 38: Mr N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education : "(a) What is the policy of the Department in connection with the purchasing of books at secondary schools? (b) Are children allowed to acquire books on their own and by other means other than through the schools? (c) Is it correct that principals of schools insist on students using new text books as from the beginning of each school year? (d) If so, why is this so?" REPLY: "(a) The books are obtained by the schools from the booksellers for sale to the pupils. (b) Yes. (c) There is no instruction to this effect and pupils are not obliged to do so as long as the correct books are in the possession of the pupil and they are naturally in a useable state. (d) Falls away. Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply to (a), I am on the purchasing of books . What explanation could the hon. Minister give about a case where a student pays fully for the books in advance and the books are never delivered up to the end of the year at times? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : How can he reply to a hypothetical question without facts? Mr ZIBI : Let the Minister reply, please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is a different question. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I am mindful of the fact that the question that is being

321

this bill because it now throws open the opportunity to anyone who has the ability to pursue any trade. As the hon. Ministers wish me to sit down I shall comply. (Laughter) The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on Wednesday, 8th May, or so soon thereafter.

tice who feels aggrieved by any decision of the Director of Apprenticeship to appeal against such decision. In addition, apprentices are afforded adequate safeguards against any form of victimisation by their employers, including wrongful dismissal or arbitrary reduction of remuneration, etc. In terms of clause 36, the Minister may make regulations in regard to any matter which is considered necessary or expedient for purposes of achieving the aims and objects of the Act. Finally, in view of the fact that the Transkei stands upon the threshold of phenomenal development requiring the services of an ever-growing number of welltrained qualified tradesmen in all fields of industrial and other enterprises within the territory, who are capable of rendering first-rate service in their various spheres of employment, it is earnestly trusted that the present Bill will be regarded by all members of this House as a noncontentious measure providing for apprenticeship needs in their entirety both now and in the future. Mr Chairman, I now move that the Bill be read a second time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would say that this bill which is being put forward by the hon. the Minister of the Interior has been anticipated, and it is most acceptable because the Republican Act in connexion with this subject contained discriminatory clauses. In regard to the present bill there is nothing to indicate that there will be any discrimination on the basis of colour. It pleases us more when mention is made of the Board which will consider complaints from the employers or employees. Arrangement is also being made for the appointment of a director of apprenticeship who will deal with matters of contract between employers and employees. This side of the House accepts the principle of this bill and that is all I wish to say in this connexion. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, when the hon. the Minister of the Interior has presented to this House such an important bill we feel that the governing side should also make some observations. We always want to show the world that by accepting separate development we were not stupid. We wanted to prescribe the destiny of our own people. You only have to look at page 29 and see the long list of laws that are being repealed. Because of these laws our children have never been afforded an opportunity of proper apprenticeship in any form of trade, and to any Doubtful Thomases I would like to pose this question: What happened to all the children who were to train at Madwaleni? They all ended up as spanner boys and not one of them actually ended up as a mechanic. All these things happened because the Whites wanted no competition in these various forms of trade in the country. Now we are sure that the future of our children who are gifted in these various trades will be bright in that they will have no laws that debar them from completing their training. In short, Mr Chairman, we commend the hon. Minister. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to make a few remarks in regard to the bill which has been placed before the House, dealing with apprenticeship. I also associate myself with the favourable remarks made by the hon. member for Ngqeleni, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase. In particular I want to express appreciation for that fact that the department is now doing away with job reservation . The job reservation regulations were a deterrent to our people 'in advancing and applying their skills. We welcome

GOVERNMENT SERVICE ADMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider the bill. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Seconded. Agreed to. House in Committee

Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment to clause 2 (g), that all the words after the word "organization" as it appears for the first time be deleted . I heard the hon. the Chief Minister yesterday speaking about the efficiency and loyalty of the civil servants. I feel it is sufficient if all the other words that follow the word "organization" are deleted . It definitely will suffice if it just reads "becomes a member of any party-political organization" and ends there, instead of having "or of any organization which the Chief Minister may, by notice in the Official Gazette of the Transkei, declare to be an organization of which an officer may not be a member, or takes an active part in any party-political matters". I see no reason why, in fact, the Chief Minister should be empowered to preclude public servants from being members of organizations by way of notice in the Official Gazette. We all know that public servants as a rule must not take part in politics but they have political convictions. In their everday lives politics affect them, as they affect anybody, in fact. Only if they become members of political organizations -that is sufficient enough. With those few words I move the amendment. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : I second, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to lodge an objection to this amendment because it is vague and embarrassing. The hon. member says we should have in this amended bill what we already have in the proclamation. Mr Chairman, if you turn to section 18 (g) of this proclamation it reads as follows : "An officer (other than a member of the Transkeian Police Force) shall be guilty of misconduct and may be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of section 19 if he becomes a member of any political organization." Then what are we amending? What the hon. member says should be deleted is the actual amendment to this proclamation. (Laughter) In other words, we have no amendments from the hon. member. I would understand if he said the whole section should be deleted . Now, I am arguing as an attorney, Mr Chairman. An amendment should be reasonable and objective. What is the object of the amendment as it stands? He says the proclamation should stand as it was, so I feel there is no amendment before the House, Mr Chairman. Mr MGUDLWA: In view of what the hon. the Chief Minister has said I feel I am out of court. (Laughter) I therefore withdraw.

Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, I am standing on a point of indulgence from the hon. the Chief Minister, 322

please. Nearly all of us are not aware of the provisions in the original Act perhaps. Would he please, for the information of the House, define what he means by a civil servant as contained in the Proclamation R334. I am thinking 'in terms of teachers, chiefs, headmen, etc. That is why I am keen that he should educate the House, for all and sundry, in regard to this term . CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, by a civil servant, as defined in this proclamation is meant any person who is employed continuously, full-time, under the Government Service. He is a servant of the State, a servant of the people and is paid for his services. Mr ZIBI : So that the headmen and chiefs fall under this definition? CHIEF MINISTER : The chiefs and headmen are not public servants as defined in this proclamation. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clause 3 put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed

was expected without a reasonable degree of literacy of the black people, and this was apparently nil. Another factor which obliged the missionary enterprise to engage in this field of education was the continual shirking of responsibility by the various governments of the then Union of South Africa to educate our people. Now is the time, Mr Chairman, when the Transkeian Government must assume the full responsibility of running hostels to ensure a smooth running of these institutions. After all, the education of a people in all modern states is the sole responsibility of the central government. It is on this submission, Mr Chairman, that I move the expropriation of and payment of reasonable compensation for all mission hostels and classrooms, and these must be under the control of the Department of Education. The general running and maintenance of these institutions is a big financial responsibility, especially during this period of inflation. The wardens of missionary institutions have made representations to the Department of Education to increase boarding fees in order to meet rising costs, and yet the state of buildings in some of these missions is deplorable, to say the least. It is no exaggeration to say that the social amenities and the students' diet in these institutions leaves much to be desired. Some wardens of these mission hostels are lamentably inefficient in running an education establishment. To call a spade a spade, I feel that it is no insult to refer to some few rectors or wardens of some of these mission hostels as men with doubtful moral standards. Who on earth, therefore, could feel happy to send a grown-up daughter to such doubtful characters? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr PAMLA : I wish to remind this House that the Anglican and Presbyterian Churches have already handed over their church hostels to the Government. I am thinking of such institutions as Lovedale and Blythswood. The Methodist Church and the Roman Catholics still cling tenaciously to the power of running these hostels. For instance, they still run Mariazell and Osborne, Emfundisweni, Lourdes, etc. Comparatively, the Government schools such as Sigcau and Blythswood are fine classical examples of good schools. There is another aspect of the matter and that is the dual control in these institutions which has caused friction. This friction is always between the hostel head and the school head, resulting in poor and bad discipline in our boarding-schools. Now and again the department has been called upon to arbitrate when a principal who is a layman and the warden who is a churchman more often than not don't seem to agree about how to run these places. It is for that reason that this motion seeks to expropriate and compensate in order to solve this problem once and for all. In conclusion, let me remind you of the fact that throughout known human history all governments have had to take drastic steps in order to gain access to missionary land and institutions. Mediaeval history has pages and pages on the struggle for supremacy between the State and Papacy. Rev. Simon Gqubule reminds us in the Daily Dispatch of 3rd May about the attitude of the early missionaries. I quote: "Can you believe something like this? This is a quote from an 1855 instruction to missionaries: ' You must teach English to the total exclusion of Kaffir dialect ." This is sufficient evidence to prove that the time is now opportune for the expropriation of mission hostels and classrooms. Before I sit down I once more wish to warn all upstarts in Christianity to refrain from criti-

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Government Service Amendment Act 1974 has been approved by this committee without amendment. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the third reading of this bill will be tomorrow. EXPROPRIATION OF ALL CHURCHCONTROLLED HOSTELS AND CLASSROOMS Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to crave the indulgence of the Chairman to allow me to move Motion No. 36, if you will please waive the rules of the House. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: I second. Agreed to. Mr PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of expropriating and paying of reasonable compensation to all mission hostels and classrooms presently under the control of the various Churches." In piloting this all-important motion in this House I am mindful of the signifcant rôle which the missionary enterprise played in the education of my people throughout the entire black continent of Africa. I would be the last man to criticize missionary endeavour in the field of education because my own greatgrandfather played a very notable rôle in missionary work. In fact, I want to warn all upstairs in Christianity to refrain from criticizing this motion. We do not only owe the missionaries a deep debt of gratitude for their dedication and devotion to the work of educating our people, but we sincerely appreciate their sincere activities as protagonists in the educational sphere in Southern Africa. The missionaries laid a very sound foundation in the education of our people. Among other things they taught us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. With this good Christian background the missionary institutions of our land have produced some of the finest characters in the world. This landmark which features prominently in the pages of history books, in our libraries and archives, shall remain a memorable era even for posterity. However, Mr Chairman, may I remind this House that the function of a missionary enterprise is not that of education more than that of evangelization, but, as is well known to everybody, there are two main factors which obliged the missionaries to educate our people: (a) Evangelization of our people could be proceeded with and as effectively as

323

ciate that they have put up decent dormitories, and if the Government has got the money to buy over these missions why won't the Government set about seriously putting up more schools? We emphasize that the Government must continue to negotiate with the missionaries, that by negotiation and persuasion they should eventually succeed in the project. We are convinced, Sir, that missionary institutions mean no harm to our education. The word "expropriation" as used by the hon. member for Umzimkulu is too strong in this context. They want a strong MINISTER OF JUSTICE : word. We have been giving them soft ones. Mr MADIKIZELA: So without any fear, without any trepidation whatsoever, we put forward this amendment. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon. members I did not intend to speak to this motion because I did not anticipate that it would be a contentious one, but as a result of the intoxication of the hon. member for Ngqeleni by the religious opium I feel I must stand up and speak. (Laughter). Firstly, his main objection would seem to be the use of the word "expropriation". He avers that that word is too strong in the context. I am very happy that the word has got the target which it was intended to get. Mr MADIKIZELA: I am not a missionary. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It was indeed intended to be too strong, because ever since the inception of the Transkeian Government negotiation after negotiation has gone on with the missionaries who still cling to the hostels and classrooms. Mr MADIKIZELA : You must not tire of negotiating. Go on negotiating.

cizing this motion. I speak with a background of a century and a half of missionary enterprise because my great-grandfather was a missionary as far back as 1832 and we have produced a family of ministers of religion. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: I second the motion. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the expropriation of all Churchcontrolled hostels and classrooms was resumed. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I rise to speak to this motion by the hon. member for Umzimkulu and forthwith I move an amendment to delete all the words after the word "advisability" and substitute therefor the following:"of negotiating with the Church authorities by requesting them to relinquish all control of mission hostels and classrooms and to accept reasonable compensation for the loss sustained." The hon. member for Umzimkulu warned all Christian upstarts to keep away from this motion. It is a known fact that ministers of religion have so often had disappointing progeny. A minister, a good man with a good wife, often has a poor son as a follower. (Laughter) The worst "tsotsi" are often the sons of ministers and I am not sure that the hon. member for Umzimkulu is not such an example. (Interjections) MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A "tsotsi"? Mr MADIKIZELA: We have had a very good example set by the missionaries of old. They were pioneers in education. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And the present ones? Mr MADIKIZELA: They introduced education to our people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Don't tell us about the old ones, tell us about these. Mr MADIKIZELA: When the country cared very little for the education of the black man MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We want to take the hostels and classrooms from these, not from those. Mr MADIKIZELA: The hon. the Minister of Justice who is being so noisy is a product of those institutions. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am not Mr MADIKIZELA: From among the raw Natives, out of the wilds of Qamata they created a gentleman. (Laughter and interjections). MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Withdraw that. How can you say a big chief was a raw Native? Mr MADIKIZELA: The hon. member says I must not confuse his father with being a gentleman. (Interjections). DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon Minister is being too noisy. Mr MADIKIZELA: That is a fact, Mr Chairman. Under heavy odds the missionaries built up Native Education. The Methodist missionaries did that; the Bantu Presbyterian missionaries did that; the Anglican missionaries did that; the Roman Catholic missionaries did exactly that. We must therefore appreciate the efforts made by those people for the education of our people.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, we feel on this side of the House that the reason why the missionaries will not let go these hostels and classrooms is because they are receiving fantastic sums of money as rental therefor. Some of these hostels and classrooms are asylums for mice and I think some of the money we pay is rent for the mice too. (Laughter). The most pitiful part of it is that the parents are required to pay large sums of money for boarding and lodging, and they don't receive the equivalent of that money as far as the conditions of living of the children are concerned, and, of course, the principals of schools in those establishments have no say in the matter because they are not in charge of those hostels. It is pitiful to find health inspectors going to these institutions, prescribing what they believe is a proper balanced diet for our children, and such balanced diet is not followed by the powers that be in these boardingschools. All we have now received is that from quarter to quarter the boarding fees are escalating higher and higher and by the end of this year the boarding fees in these hostels will be R30 per three months' quarter. When you compare that with the Fort Hare University where we pay R35 per quarter, there is very little difference. Must we then sit down and keep on talking, talking to these missionaries who have decided to turn a deaf ear to all our pleas to hand over these hostels and classrooms?

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That is what he said. 'Mr MADIKIZELA: If they will not pass control from themselves to the Government it is for very good reasons sometimes, and some of these have surrendered their missions to the Government. Others are doing so now, but others are still carrying on the old work. Even if all the missionaries were to surrender the Government could not in one day cope with the work. We appreciate the fact that the Government has put up decent classrooms in government schools; we appre-

It is a tried procedure with all governments that if they negotiate and negotiate and negotiations do not bring forth any fruit, the best remedy and outlet is to expropriate the land. The hon. member for Ngqeleni has seen an example of what the Transkeian Government means to do for the children of the Transkei as far as boarding facilities are concerned. You have seen it in Blythswood. The students at Blythswood were living in hovels and, in fact, the hostel there was just

324

because opposition is part of representation. That is something I cannot understand. In fact, you should be ashamed of yourselves, of trying to strangulate your own children. Mr MADIKIELA: Do you want to strangulate the Church? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, we have to strangulate the Church if at all they will not reason. If at all they want to escape this expropriation they must build decent hostels on their establishments. If at all they had decent hostels we would not quarrel with them. If they gave our children decent food we would not quarrel with them, but we cannot sit back and watch when our children are being subjected to all the iniquities to which they have been subjected. And the hon. member for Ngqeleni wants to be a party to that! Surely, I don't think you have children of schoolgoing age. Mr MADIKIZELA: I have. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If you have then you are inhuman to allow your children to be subjected to such conditions and to actually plead for the perpetuation of such injustices to our children. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, there is too much noise in this House. Mr N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment moved by the hon. member for Ngqelni. The request which is embodied in the motion by the hon. member for Umzimkulu is quite clear and understandable. We know the great amount of work done by the missionaries in regard to education. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The trouble is you speak about the past when you should speak about the present. Mr JAFTA: There is a time for change in all things. When you make a general statement, namely, that missionaries are bad people, it is not true of all missionaries.

about falling when the Transkei Government decided to put up decent hostels for the students at Blythswood. You have seen it in the new training school at Butterworth; you have seen it at Rhode in the Daliwonga High School! you have seen it in Maluti; you have seen it next door at St. John's College here; you have seen it at the Technical College. That is what the Government means to do for the children of the Transkei. You know, if children live in hovels the psychological effect is that they become hovels too. (Laughter). I am sure you realise what the St. John's College students are today as a result of the place where they live. They are now gentlemen. We know what they looked like a few years ago when they were living in those abandoned hovels. Hon. member for Ngqeleni, even if you were promised stewardship, if at all you are going to defend these missionary establishments, you will get it even if you don't defend them in the manner in which you are trying to defend them. (Laughter). You tell us about missionaries of old. Those were proper missionaries. Mr. MADIKIZELA: What are these? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They knew their work and what they had come for. These missionaries of today have got multifarious duties. They are so busy ... Mr MADIKIZELA: Converting the heathen, MINISTER OF JUSTICE:.. • so busy with earthly matters that they forget what their religious duties are. The other day I even had to say that I wished the missionaries would concern themselves with the souls of the people and leave the flesh alone, but they are busy with the flesh in all respects of the word "flesh". (Laughter). I said they must leave the attention of the flesh of the people to ourselves, the politicians. Now, hon, members across the floor, please bear with us. You have always tried to show us that you are people who champion the cause of the people of the Transkei. This motion is intended for the benefit of the children of the people of the Transkei. The hon. member says if the Transkeian Government has enough money to buy these hostels and classrooms , why don't they build schools elsewhere? But why drive the Transkeian Government to go and build schools elsewhere when they have to leave their children living in irksome conditions? In fact, the Transkeian Government is still being asked to be reasonable in that in this expropriation these missionaries will be adequately compensated. If they resist, and this is not a threat, we shall expropriate them and give them what we want to give them -not what they ask us to give them. Look at the conditions in Buntingville; look at the conditions in Clarkebury; look at the conditions in all these hostels under the missionary control. They are not worthy of being inhabited by children, some of whom come from very, very decent homes. So, hon. members across the floor, we plead with you. Although we know that we have got the voting power we still plead with you - please see reason. We know that sometimes the very fact that a motion comes from this side of the House you must always feel that even if you have nothing to say you must at least say something. (Interjections). In fact, I sometimes wonder as to the wisdom of people who come here to represent people and say: We go there to oppose. Opposition, even if there is nothing that has been placed before you, you are already prepared to oppose. Mr MADIKIZELA: That is part of representation. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are having the wrong end of the stick if you say opposition is part of representation, so that even if there is something good brought by the Government you are still going to oppose it

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The motion is for the expropriation, not about the conduct of the missionaries. Mr JAFTA: It was mentioned in your speech. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Never mind the speech. Mr JAFTA: Everything must be viewed from both sides. What I read in your motion is that you want authority to rule more than to do any good for the people. There are a few schools which have been built and established by the Government and the buildings are in good condition, but there are still many things you have to do before you proceed to do what you now propose . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just give the speaker a chance, please. There is too much murmuring here. Mr JAFTA: There are a lot of things the Government has to do and even what it is doing is not yet complete, and yet they want to take on something else. There is a lot of work being performed by these schools which are under missionary control. I do not say there are not certain things which can be criticized, but can you not deal with the work you have in hand at present and allow the missionaries to go on, and negotiate with them in the meantime? (Interjections). Amongst other things which have been stated, mention was made about some bad characteristics of certain missionaries, but if you observe well you will find on the other hand that even some of the wardens of the schools under the Government also have some things to be criticized as far as their characters are concerned. It is the general rule that if a person holds a high position and commits a small indiscretion, these things are exaggerated. When we are in this House we don't want to waste time talking about individuals, but to discuss general matters.

325

members of the House, at a time when the successive governments of the Union of South Africa had shirked their responsibility for the education of the black man. Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Is expropriation part of that gratitude now? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : So we will always be thankful to the missionaries for their devotion to the cause of the black man when the black man was let down by the governments of the time. and you repay Mr MADIKIZELA: That's right them by expropriating. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But the most important thing for the hon. members to consider - I would not like them to be emotional about this matter, especially the church stewards ... Mr MADIKIZELA: Of which you are one.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Just discuss the expropriation, leave the missionaries. Mr JAFTA: We want progress and we maintain that the Government should stop exceeding its authority and take something that belongs to other people who are doing good work as far as education is concerned. (Interjections). This very Government has not yet accomplished everything and they are at present not in a position to fulfil all its obligations as far as education is concerned. The Government has only accomplished a few things. The Government has no right to go and label something disgusting as far as the missionaries are concerned. (Interjections) . We are all the products of missionary schools. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And we thank them for that. Mr JAFTA: They should not be relegated to the background because of their little mistakes. To err is human and common to everyone. (Interjetcions). That is why we say they should not . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If the hon. members continue to be so noisy on this motion I will decide to bring it to an end. Continue, hon. member. Mr JAFTA: Mr Chairman, I will request the hon. members of this House to look at the amount of work that has been done by the missionaries, because any progress that is being achieved in the Transkei is the result of the work done by these people. It is only right that we should commend their work. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member for Mqanduli, are you defying my authority? I will demonstrate with one member and he will tell the others how painful it is to be ordered out of the House. That is my very last warning. Mr JAFTA: Hon. members, we must not look down upon the work done by the missionaries formerly. These people led us and taught us what we know and how to follow the Word of God. That is not a minor matter as far as the people are concerned. The mover of the motion is a descendant of Christian people. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That shows his sincerity. Mr JAFTA: His ancestors performed good work . (Interjections) Even the hostels which you want to lay stress on are not so important in this issue. I know that there can be no peace when there are two bulls in one kraal. That means that the smaller one is always the victim. What I want to state is that we cannot look down on the work performed by the missionaries. It is my personal opinion that the Transkeian Government should not hurry over this matter but should carry on negotiating with these people. In the meantime the Government should carry out all the work it has not yet accomplished . I think this will suffice. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I feel that from the very onset I must make an apology to the church stewards if they have felt offended when the mover of the motion has piloted this motion through the Assembly. I can assure them that it was not the intention of the mover of the motion to offend anybody. In fact, I know his motives and his intention. He did so, as I believe the hon. the Minister of Justice has said, because the whole intention is to do good for our children. In fact, most of us ― particularly those of us who have been educated in these missionary institutions, myself included cannot be accused of being ungrateful to the missionaries. We acknowledge the fine contributions they have made towards the education of the black people and I believe the mover of the motion has clearly stated about this fact, particularly, Mr Chairman and hon.

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The motion really seeks to state quite clearly that, after all, originally the function of the missionaries was never that of educating people. No doubt everybody knows that their main intention was and is and, I am afraid it ought to be, that of spreading the good news. Mr N. JAFTA: They go hand in hand. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In other words, you can boldly say it was an anomalous position that the missionaries must find themselves featuring prominently in a sphere which was never theirs - a sphere of education. Mr Chairman, I know for a fact that the hon. members of this House cannot gainsay the truth, that the education of people is undoubtedly a State responsibility, and this had to be so because, after all, missionaries are just private bodies and have slender resources and it is the Government with the money that should be running the schools, hostels and classrooms . In other words, the motion seeks to bring relief to the missionaries who have been faced with a problem of running schools which essentially ought to be run by the State. As a matter of fact I think all the hon. members of this House should be thankful to the mover of the motion because it makes things easier for the missionaries concerned, and at the same time it is reminding the government of the time of its responsibility. May I just tell the hon. members, if they are scared because perhaps there is a strong word having been inserted in the motion that is, expropriation when we talk of expropriation it is because time and again the Government of the Transkei has been trying to talk sense to the missionary bodies concerned, particularly the Methodist and Roman Catholic Churches , and they have been adamant. Mr MADIKIZELA : Haven't the Roman Catholics yielded? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They have been adamant and I am afraid then the Government, not only of the Transkei but a civilized Government anywhere and, of course, if you are a civilized Government you are a Christian Government — all Governments usually have great schemes for the people. A Government is a custodian, you see, for its people. When we set about an act of expropriation we will be doing so because when we have been entering negotiation with the missionary bodies, the missionary bodies are adamant and they do not want to see eye to eye with us in spite of the fact that we are helping them. I think those of us who are prepared to be objective should know that the present position is anomalous, to find, for instance, missionaries such as the Presbyterian and the Anglican Churches have had to hand over, and rightly too, and yet you find on the other hand the

326

Mehtodists, and they are missionaries too, refusing to do just the right thing. The mover of the motion has mentioned a very, very important fact, and that is that today all governments and all the people, in fact, all over are faced by inflation and the missionaries are finding increasing difficulty in maintaining these hostels and they are finding it more difficult every day to buy food for the children in these institutions. My department has had the experience of having representations made by the Methodist heads of these institutions. They are asking to be allowed to raise the fees. That is very, very

habitation. I visited that school recently and when I saw the inside walls I found cracks all over the inside, cracked from inside to outside, and you could even see what was happening outside through the cracks in the walls. (Laughter) The plastering outside is peeling off, the floors are sagging in. Virtually, such floors have become potentially dangerous for those girls who are living there. And, so to speak, this is not an isolated case — this is the general tendency. So I would appeal to the hon. members of the Assembly that they must be very serious about this motion. We are not blundering and we are not emotional, but we are stating a genuine case that honestly these pious gentlemen (Laughter) must leave off so that the Government of the Transkei, which is the custodian for our people, must be given a chance. Fortunately for members, I am the head of the Department of Educaiton and I am the custodian - my department is the custodian of your children so whatever we do, we do in the best interests of your children. So I think this motion has been sufficiently canvassed. I suppose other members might take part but I am giving you an assurance that we are not malicious when we want to take over these hostels. I have lots of missionaries, black and white, who are friends and I am a Christian gentleman myself and I have missionary sympathies. Mr R. MADIKIZELA : And you are a church steward too.

unfair, honestly, for poor African parents. In other words, that is clear evidence that the missionary bodies concerned are aware that this responsibility devolving on their shoulders is becoming difficult for them. That being the case, I think this House will like me that if, when we expropriate these properties, as I am going to do, as I am explaining here (Laughter) ― they will like me as a fine chap, but when we set about the expropriation of their properties we shall have a clear conscience because we are going to give the missionaries concerned a very, very specific and unequivocal guarantee that they will get their reasonable compensation - reasonable , I emphasize . It is only when negotiations collapse that the Government will be reluctantly compelled to expropriate these properties. So I think I have stated the position clearly. Now, to allay the fears of the church stewards and also other sympathizers - you know, some of you can speak when you have not got facts . You know, recently I was intrigued when representatives of certain missionary institutions came to my office, and presumably these gentlemen came to tell me they do not want Mr So-and-so, who is a lay principal who is not interested in missionary activities, and he is mainly concerned with the work of the school, and I knew pretty well that this is a fine gentleman from our point of view when we think of the future of the children. The results are good , the administration of the school first-class and the gentleman concerned, in my opinion, although he may not be attending church regularly — but in my opinion a Christian gentleman . But the church stewards have no patience with this type of gentleman in spite of the good work he is doing teaching the children. Also, I think there was reference ― and that reference was quite appropriate to deal with the control of these places . My department, if I may tell this House, is placed in an extremely awkward position because of this dual control . We must send officers to these places to investigate friction which is taking place between the warden and the principal, and now and again we are sending these men, but why must all this trouble be taken when the Government of the Transkei is accepting this responsibility - e.g. of taking over these hostels, and they will be on a sound footing? I think the example given by the hon. the Minister of Justice when he made reference to St. John's College — my son was educated there and when I visited that school before the Government took its responsibility of improving that school I was appalled when my son was there because of the deplorable condition of the school, but the position of the school now is a transformation, really. If one of you hon. gentlemen were to visit another school which is run by the Methodist Church in Tsomo, I think the hon. chief across there will bear me out, the conditions of the hostel leave much to be desired. In fact, I do not think I am using too strong language when I say those rooms are not fit for any human

MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Although I am not a prominent church steward I am playing a leading rôle in church activities. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, there is some disappointment to the Church in this motion which has been introduced today. It is the evident that there is something against Church. I will give this example of when we were boys. One boy was given a brush and one was given a horse-comb to brush the horse. The horse-comb is rough and a brush is soft. This motion is very rough. (Laughter) The amendment I would liken to the brush, but the object of both these instruments is to clean the horse. The amendment seeks the identical end as is sought in the motion. I was pleased to hear the hon. the Minister of Education say that if the instrument that is to be used is the rough horse-comb, he will use the soft brush to clean the horse. If I was saying something definite I would say this whole matter should be left alone, because we are saying the same thing. However, I would lay stress on the fact that the missionaries should examine themselves in relation to the old missionaries

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That's right. CHIEF NDAMASE : ... . . and find out whether their actions compare with those of their predecessors and whether their intention is not a desire to accumulate money. If they are only interested in getting money then such motion will be introduced. Nevertheless, even on the Government side there is this to say ― that with the old Government there were certain arrangements for particular schools known as "grammar schools" where children were under the control of the missionaries, and the Government gave monetary assistance and all the arrangements in connexion with the school were controlled by the Government. I believe we are wasting time as far as this motion is concerned, because it seems we are in agreement. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, indeed I feel this motion has been properly canvassed . I will now call upon the mover to wind up. 327

Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that this motion has received a unanimous decision, as it were, I feel it is not necessary to answer every point that was raised by our pseudo Opposition. I would like to draw the attention of members to a circular from the Clarkebury District Methodist Church, which draws the attention of parents to increased boarding fees. The circular is dated 2nd April 1974 and it is issued by the Chairman of the Clarkebury District. Among other things it states that the hostel fees will be raised from 1st July 1974 to R25 per quarter, and then raised from 1st January 1975 to R30 per term . This means it will now cost a parent R120 per annum in boarding fees only from next year. Mr Chairman, to help the mover of the amendment I decided to calculate a small bill sum and also to show him the economic importance of our motion. The cost of educating a child from Form 1 to Form 3 under the new boarding conditions will come to R941 in a matter of three years. This sum includes book fees, pocket money, travelling expenses, basic needs in clothing, clinic fees, sports fees, tuition and entertainment fees. Unless we take immediate steps to grab the hostels and classrooms we shall find ourselves in the invidious position of having the door of education closed to most of our deserving children. If you reduce this whole rise in boarding fees you will find that it works out to R1,66 a day spent on one student, because there are 200 school days per annum on an average. Now, what will be the position of the widow who is paid R1,20 a day and is supposed to spend R1,66 a day on education? For the information of the hon. member who moved an amendment I would like to tell him that this very circular complains that the Department of Education has withdrawn what is called the capitation grant of R6 per annum per boarder. If these missionaries had made use of the grant for all these years then we should not be complaining of hovels and dilapidated classrooms. I just want to quote a small passage from this circular: "We have been assured that you parents and guardians desire church hostels for your children ." If I were to remark about that, Mr Chairman, I would say the people who have assured them are these upstarts in Christianity. "It is because of this (that is, the assurance) that we are attempting to continue to administer them. If this is not so, inform us and we shall be relieved of a very heavy responsibility." And that is precisely what we are doing now. Mr Chairman, I would like to tell the House that this increase in fees will apply to all mission hostels, irrespective of amenities. I have known schools that have a poor water supply, no electricity, toilets almost nil, charging the same as schools that are well equipped, and some of the missionaries who are superintendents of these hostels brook no interference from the so-called hostel committee. They collect school fees from parents anywhere, even at funeral parties, and in some cases no receipts are issued unless you pay by cheque. To end up, Mr Chairman, I want to remind the Opposition that if they talk of negotiation, which has failed for all these years, they are in fact encouraging an ugly situation which is developing in our schools today. When the Government of the Transkei started building secondary schools in different administrative areas as well as in different districts, the intention was to bring the schools closer to the community. What now prevails is that children from as far afield as Johannesburg and Cape Town come and register at those schools . These children do not want to be under any control,

but you will find these children hire huts in the administrative areas for their accommodation. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder if that is connected with your motion? Mr PAMLA: I was trying to demonstrate that there is great need for this motion because this situation is caused by the poor running of these hostels. What I am driving at is that if we allow such a situation to exist it will amount to the fact that although we say we are looking after the interests of our children, instead we will be the destroyers of our people, because some people cook food for these boys and in return they receive some advances. The hon. member for Ngqeleni made an unworthy contribution to the missionary enIdeavour in the field of education. He referred to old missionaries as good examples, but his silence on my remarks on missionaries simply means nothing else but consent. Finally, I would like to thank the hon. the Minister of Justice for his very fine summary on this motion, and the hon. the Minister of Education has assured the House that the Department of Education will be the custodian after the expropriation. I just want to end up by saying this amendment seems to be applying a diplomatic approach and diplomacy, Mr Chairman, at times is usually an excuse for moral cowardice. This is the time when we must speak the truth and shame the devil. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr PAMLA: Without throwing a spanner into the works, Mr Chairman, I thank you. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The question is a motion by the hon. Mr H. Pamla, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. member for Ngqeleni, Mr R. Madikizela. I shall put the question for the amendment. Amendment negatived. Original motion put and carried. SUGGESTED EDUCATION PROGRAMME Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to move this motion on behalf of the hon. member for Libode, Mr W. C. Singata, and thank you at the same time, Sir, for having granted me the indulgence. I hereby move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of embarking on the following programme in relation to the Department of Education:(a) The establishment of more post primary schools i.e. Secondary and High Schools ; (b) Subsidisation of training of teachers; (c) Employment of clerks to handle all matters of Finance; (d) Increased emphasis on adult education; and (e) Employment of married women on a permanent basis." Surely, Mr Chairman, classification is a sign of a tidy mind. The very illustrious nature of the motion tells this House ab initio that it emanates from a tidy mind. First and foremost, I deal with the establishment of more post-primary schools - i.e. secondary and high schools. It is a known fact that in this Transkei there is dire need for the establishment of such schools. In so far as the education of our children is concerned I think without any qualms we are ad idem in this House, more especially when, in fact, the number of schools that is secondary and high - is sadly lacking in so far as we are concerned. More especially, Mr Chairman, I will have to deviate a bit, but you will have to bear with me. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I won't bear with you if you are irrelevant. Stick to the motion. 328

Mr MGUDLWA: In Engcobo there is the Nyanga High School, for instance, which was razed by fire and up to date it has not been rebuilt. Mr Chairman, please bear with me. I am sorry that when piloting this motion on behalf of the hon. member for Libode, you took me unawares, otherwise I would have had statistics in this regard. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You knew as early as yesterday you were going to move it. Mr MGUDLWA: In fact and in anticipation of this new structure of education I think the increase in the number of secondary and High schools should receive priority. Think of the sad plight of our children who pass Std 6 and who do not get accommodation in secondary schools. Think of our children who pass Junior Certificate. They pass in big numbers these days and they are not accommodated because of the lack of high schools. Surely, Mr Chairman, it is high time that the Department of Education should embark on a policy of taking positive steps to establish these schools envisaged in this motion in fact, even training schools, for that matter, because they are also postprimary and I would say they are also included in that category. Training schools are very few and far between in the Transkei to meet the production of teachers. That will meet the shortage of teachers. I would, Mr Chairman, implore the Education Department to create these training schools, and even the syllabus must suit the times. We cannot put the clock back. We are marching with the times. Now I come to the subsidization of the training of teachers. I remember, Mr Chairman, during our times when I was training as a teacher, whenever a student got a first class he was given a bursary by the then Cape Education Department. If our Department of Education follows suit, surely that is an impetus and is encouraging to our children to train as teachers. There is a shortage of teachers and where, alas, are we in respect of the shortage of teachers? Education is our only political safety and outside of that I can see nothing but a deluge of water. (Laughter) Really, if this can be subsidized, surely more and more students after completing their Junior Certificate and Matric will be attracted that noble profession to the teaching profession which is so indispensable, Mr Chairman. Now I come to section (c) - the employment of clerks to handle all matters of finance. That is an intricate and delicate matter, Mr Chairman, which I have to delve into a bit. All financial matters in the schools, almost, are handled by principal teachers. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: Where? Mr MGUDLWA: I am not talking about the feeding scheme. You will find the principal loaded with the onerous task of performing administrative work as well as teaching duties because our principal teachers, unfortunately, do not only perform administrative work. They teach sometimes for periods. I imagine this man, if I am put to the same plight as he is, during the opening of schools he has to handle all these funds, issue receipts, he has to attend to admissions. Where will he do justice to his work, because I know liars do figure, but figures don't lie. (Laughter) If fulltime clerks are employed to handle the finances of the schools surely there will be efficiency and the smooth running of the schools will be the resultant These principals are put to order of the day. made to handle temptation, surely, by being the finances. You will find time and again that a principal of a certain school has been suspended because there is suspicion that funds are missing. (Interjections) Now and again funds are misappropriated, but

those are public funds and as taxpayers we are entitled to an explanation, and not only must it be reasonable, but it must be reasonable beyond all doubt. This means now that a very important trust has been betrayed. We cannot be authors of that betrayal of a trust,, with all due respect, Mr Chairman. (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Listen to the speaker, please. Mr MGUDLWA: I wish that members will thumbnail this issue. I come to (d), Mr Chairman, and that is the increased emphasis on adult education. Whilst applauding the steps which have been taken by the Education Department in the Transkei recently in this regard, in that in effect I learn through the planner of cultural affairs in the Transkei that there are positive steps which have been taken in this regard, we wish, in fact, that it must spread to all the districts in that each and every district in the Transkei must have an established school for adults, fully subsidized by the department. The people are illiterate and their numbers exceed the number who are educated . Mr Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Justice is disturbing me. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the Minister of Justice take his seat. Mr MGUDLWA: I am sure all the members will support me when I say that adult education should be provided in all these districts to assist those unfortunate people who missed education in their youth. Mr H. PAMLA: They had not accepted rehabilitation. Mr MGUDLWA : The hon. member from Umzimkulu says we should begin by rehabilitating all the areas, but that does not come into this motion. The Government, therefore, has to take serious action to ensure that adult education is encouraged. In those books provided for primary schools I saw a picture drawn in one of them of a red-blanketed woman who was smoking a long pipe. She was saying: "Although I have not been educated I will see to it that my issue receives education." We don't want education of that nature. We want our children to receive education. This is what we want to say. As we have been educated, so should our children be, because that poor woman had a negative attitude to life, cursing her parents who failed to educate her. She was probably thirsting for education but her parents did not make the effort. In all these schools this book was provided with the picture of this woman. Now I come to section (e) - the employment of married women on a permanent basis. It is very important that one should find oneself secure in one's employment. We don't want to follow the old custom when these women knew once they were married they would not be employed as teachers. As a result, if a young man wants to marry a teacher the teacher will turn down that proposal, fearing she will lose her employment as a teacher. The teachers who will benefit greatly are the older married women, because the young women usually become pregnant. A married woman is generally a very good teacher. For example, how can a married woman leave her husband's kraal and go to work, knowing that the work she is taking is not secure? (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. chief from Engcobo has been making continuous noise. Mr MGUDLWA: The hon. the Minister of Justice wants to know why this woman wants to leave her husband's kraal. This woman has a number of children and is desirous of giving them a good education , thereby assisting the Government. (Interjection) I appeal to you, Mr Chairman. The hon. the Minister of Justice is causing a lot of interruption. I hope you will 329

name him and that an assegai will be used to drive him out. (Laughter) It grieves me that the hon. the Minister of Education is not present because I know he would be taking some notes and then these married women would be employed permanently. I accordingly move this motion on behalf of the hon. member for Libode. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : I second, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 8th May 1974.

sioner-General for each Bantu National Unit. Speculation, suspicion, resentment, pessimism dominated discussions in the streets, at beer drinks and in social gatherings on the intentions of the Republican Government. The Old Guards who had been orientated in the belief of the liberal outlook of the Victorian age burst out occasionally with: "It is one of the successive oppressive laws of the Dutchman". The Young Turks reiterated : "Let us accept it and call upon the Dutchman to move on." The honourable the CommissionerGeneral, Mr J. H. Abrahams, a stranger to the scene of Transkeian politics, was appointed to the Transkei post of Commissioner-General with specific and defined duties. The most important of these functions was to establish a link between the Transkeian people and the Republican Government and to bring about the most harmonious relations between these two bodies. It was the beginning of a new era in Transkei politics ― an era of self-determination and an era of the evaluation of separate nationalities based on ethnic grouping. This the Afrikaner termed "Apartheid", which was a synonym of segregation. The honourable the CommissionerGeneral was saddled with this task of propagating this policy and of expatiating on its implications on the general life of the multi-racial society of South Africa. From time to time at social and official gatherings he made poignant and dynamic speeches which met with a sharp reaction from the anti-Government Press and he was the subject of vociferous attacks from the opponents of separate development, but the honourable the Commissioner-General was able to, and did in fact, hit back vigorously and effectively at these unwarranted attacks, and proceeded with the mission he had accepted. to undertake. When the Eastern Pondoland disturbances, which were communistic-inspired and flared into Tembuland, started, resulting in the taking of innocent lives, the honourable the Commissioner-General was present at the meetings of the Transkeian Territorial Authority Executive Committee which made decisions on measures to be adopted to counteract this vandalism and probably through his able advice the Transkeian Territorial Executive Committee, acting in consultation with the Department of Bantu Administration, was able to suppress these disturbances. When the Transkeian Territorial Authority resolved to ask the Republican Government to grant the Transkei selfgovernment, the honourable the Commissioner-General played an important part in influencing the Republican Government to grant the said self-government, and his influence was always felt when the recess committee appointed to draft proposals for the Transkei Constitution Act of the Transkei was deliberating on such matters. He was actually present at the deliberations that took place between the Prime Minister of the Republic, Dr. H. F. Verwoerd, and the Transkeian recess committee in Pretoria. During the fourteen years of his official appointment as our Commissioner-General Mr Abraham has made his presence felt in all the 26 districts of the Transkei. He knows by name practically every one of the chiefs and more in the Transkei and practically all the political figures of the territory. This is proof of the interest he had in the people he was serving and his unparallelled deducation to duty. A man whose office doors were always open to all and sundry rich and poor, Mr Abraham will ever be remembered for his kindheartedness, his human approach to racial problems and his sympathetic assistance to those who sought it. Between the Commissioner-General and certain Transkeian leaders, including the Chief Minister there were at times points of sharp differences but these were solved in the manner that domestic disputes are

WEDNESDAY, 8TH MAY 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members. yesterday the hon. member for Bizana, Chief D. Mlindazwe was absent and he is expected to be absent probably for the rest of the week as a result of the Ideath of his brother. I move that his absence should be condoned by the House. Certain members have approached me that the House should adjourn this afternoon at 3.45 to allow members to attend the small congratulatory function arranged for the Chief Minister and I am made to understand that all members of this House are invited to attend. This will be somwhere in the vicinity of Enkulukweni, I believe. Mr Chairman, I have to announce that this House will adjourn and be prorogued at 11 a.m. on Friday, 10th of May 1974, in order to allow the members to attend the public function which has been arranged by the people of the Transkei to bid farewell to the honourable the Commissioner-General at the Jubilee Hall. The payment of members' allowances will certainly be at about 2 o'clock that afternoon. I am appealing to the Secretary to attend this function in order to observe those members who are absent at the Jubilee Hall, because it will still be during the session, so as not to pay their sessional allowances if they are absent. (Laughter) Mr K. M. GUZANA: You shall have prorogued parliament then. CHIEF MINISTER: It will be prorogued on the understanding that the members will attend the function. It will be conditional. OFFICIAL FAREWELL TO THE COMMISSIONER-GENERAL CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, we come now to a very important item and in this respect I request you, Sir, and the House to accept my motion that the rules of the House should be suspended in order to allow the House to bid a formal farewell to the Commissioner-General who is present here this morning, and that the rules of the House should be waived in order to allow him to sit with us in the House and to allow photographers to take pictures. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman. I second the motion. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. mem-

bers, I am sure that you will all agree with me that this is one of the saddest occasions that we, as members of this Assembly, have had to experience, in that we have to bid farewell to our beloved friends, the honourable the Commissioner-General, Mr J. H. Abraham , and Mrs Abraham. Little did we know what was in store for the African people of South Africa when the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act 1959 was promulgated, providing for the appointment of a Commis-

330

always resolved in a family, and a man of his integrity and calibre usually forgot the past. A great man, a statesman, usually displays his true personal endowments when intricate matters of State are to be solved. This characteristic can fittingly be attributed to the honourable the Commissioner-General. The constitutional development of the Transkei will always be associated with his name. I am unable to say how many bills passed by this House went through his hands in the constitutional transmission to the State President, but one thing I know is that none of those bills was ever referred back to the House of Assembly for reconsideration. As a person who has been leader in this House for now ten years. I do not remember a single occasion that the Cabinet has made a request to the Government and met with a reactionary attitude from the honourable the Commissioner-General. We can refer to him as a man who acted as father of the people of the Transkei. I am sure he could not have been able to perform his duties efficiently were it not for the inspiration and assistance that he received from Mrs Abraham. I have been informed that he is assuming another responsible post elsewhere in the Republic of South Africa and I am sure that I am expressing the feelings of this House and the feelings of the Transkeian people when I say we wish Mr and Mrs Abraham God speed. We bid you farewell, Commissioner-General and Mrs Abraham. Don't forget us and come back whenever we want assistance from you. You are leaving at a very difficult moment when the Transkei is about to enter another era of development and while we are trying to take this further step in development we shall request you to come and assist us. We shall not forget your tones that we often hear over the radio. I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would like to say something. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, it is indeed my pleasure to be associated with the complimentary remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister on the occasion of the retirement of the honourable the Commissioner-General from his office in the Transkei. You will no doubt realise that the hon. the Chief Minister had to give you an official farewell, Sir, and he has dealt with some of the most important activities and performances which have been characteristic of your official position here, and I wondered whether or not everybody was feeling sorry about these because nobody even smiled - least of all yourself, Sir, I do believe that an occasion like this should be one of joy and merriment, for we are bidding farewell to a man who has been a distinguished character in the life of the Transkei and when we speak to it we are not delivering an obituary, but rather saying: Go from strength to strength. You were appointed, Sir, to be the Commissioner-General of the Xhoa National Unit which was sub-divided into two entities, your onerous task was to present a picture of

had left the Cape Town Lesgislative Assembly and had been appointed to the position of a quasi-diplomat with political functions; a man who had been a dedicated supporter of the policy of separate development placed in a situation where he had to soft-pedal that policy in order to make it acceptable to all parties. I must admit, Sir, that in spite of this invidious position in which you were placed, you have been able to sail through without harm, because from the political benches in Cape Town you came to the Transkei and became a diplomat . Your position, Sir, should have placed you above the reach of all men and I, for one, looked upon you as a formidable personification of separate development, (Laughter) but as the years passed and my association with you became more and more close I began to realise that you were here not so much to peddle a policy but to see the Transkei developed to its fullest potential. You reached down to everybody. Even the man in the street knew you and called you “Somakhonkco", and it was this human touch which made people forgive and forget some of the things which would have made them your enemies. Why, indeed, you began to learn the Xhosa language and use it now and again, with some success, and this is one of the things which goes to the heart of the African, where a man speaks to him in his own language, and I am sure that when you began to learn the language it was not only because you sought to make yourself popular but because you loved the language. It is my hope that when I meet you again we shall converse in Xhosa and not in Afrikaans. (Laughter) Here we had a man who could speak the English language to the bedazzlement of every opponent, whose quick mind and witty repartee demolished opponents even before they had squared up to him — so much so that I wondered whether political colts did not take on the Commissioner-General in order to sharpen their political wits on this imperishable grindstone of political maturity. Many a time have you been presented by cartoonists as a comical figure, but your sense of humour gave you the attitude to laugh at yourself and become bigger than the man who thought he was deriding you. It has been my wonder to fathom your inexhaustible energy. You were here today, tomorrow in King William's Town, the next day in Umzimkulu , another day in Pretoria, the next week in Cape Town and back again in Umtata. How a man of your age could manage this is impossible to explain. This was evidence of your devotion to your work, Sir, and today we want to thank you for that dedication. Then, Sir, you were an inexhaustible fund of political and historical information. You were a versatile man who was at home on any subject upon which you spoke. You knew the political developments in every country of Africa and your statistics were rolled off from the tips of your fingers. This, to me, was always cause for amazement and wonder and admiration that a man could be so intelligible about all things. You spent fourteen years in the Transkei in the service of a people. You will not recover those fourteen years again, but I think you can look back on that period with pride for there has been achievement and purpose and determination and dedication in your work. May I say that one of the subjects of development in the Transkei which was close to your heart was agriculture, for you saw quite clearly that if a country is underdeveloped it must use its natural resources as the basis of further development. If we have done very little in this regard, Sir, it is not for lack of encouragement, direction and advice from you. We hope

unity in respect of the Transkei and the Ciskei. Many a time have I wondered how you could ride the two horses at the same time, but today we are able to say that during your period of office you have brought these two homelands closer and closer together and that there is reason to believe two that in the future there will be amalgamation of the two because of your service, Sir. A man who is appointed to your post and holds that post for a period of fourteen years, if he is any man of substance at all, must make friends and also bitter enemies. On this occasion we have locked the enemies out and you have only friends with you. (Laughter) Here was a man who 331

that when you come back again, even for a visit, you will see the fruits of your labours visibly on the land of the Transkei. And now, Sir, for members of this House there is something which they are going to miss. There is that traditional invitation to Abrahamskraal which is annual, (Laughter) and even as somebody knew I was going to speak this morning he asked me: What about Abrahamskraal and the braaivleis? (Laughter) I assured him that the Commissioner-General has never had a lapse in his hospitality. Now, this is a tradition which you have established, Sir, and it is hoped that it will go on. Then you have established another tradition, and we must mention this to you. When members of the Republican Parliament representing the State President came to the Transkei to open our Legislative Assemblies you invited him and the Cabinet and myself to your house to have some champagne. This is now a tradition and I hope that when you move out of your office you will leave a note on the table that these traditions shall not be broken. (Laughter) Now, Sir, it would be unfair to Mrs Abraham if we did not say a word of thanks to her. She was willing to spare you for your work in the Transkei. You returned sometimes late at night from your official functions, but I am sure you were never asked : "Now, Hans, where have you been?" (Laughter) Now this is the sort of thing that married men value most from their better halves, that they should receive encouragement, they should receive concern, they should receive dedication for the success of their husbands; and we are assured that the success you have achieved in your work has been due to the understanding of Mrs Abraham and her encouragement, and because she shared your work privately at home to present you as the man you were in public. We want to thank her most sincerely for that. Sir, we wish you and Mrs Abraham a happy future and success in your new work and, as the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated, we hope that you will not be a rare bird amongst us. What is Umtata going to be like if we cannot say: “Daar gaan Hans Abraham"? How will the men enjoy their beer if they are not able to refer to "ou Hans"? So you have struck root here and you must return to nourish the tree you have planted in this country. May the Lord be with you in your new work. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, at this stage I think the honourable the Commissioner-General is ready to address us. Mr J. H. ABRAHAM: Mr Chairman, honourable paramount chiefs, chiefs and members of this House, I never thought that I would some day end my parliamentary career in the House of Assembly of the Transkei. When I am in the debating chamber of a parliament I feel like an old war-horse smelling powder (Laughter) but today we are not going to burn any powder. I feel more like shedding tears instead of burning powder. So much has been said about me that I thought they were speaking of somebody else, and it will be very, very difficult to reply adequately to what has been said by both the hon. Dr. Kaizer Matanzima and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , whom we hope the University of Fort Hare will honour some time. (Laughter) Let me in the very first instance here in public (I have never had the occasion to do it in public) ― but let me congratulate the hon. the Chief Minister, K. D. Matanzima, on receiving a Doctorate in Law. When I went through Fort Hare in October 1960 for the first time I never thought that Fort Hare, notwithstanding all the winds of change that passed through its treetops , would achieve what it has achieved today, and if history stands in cold justice to what has

been happening during these past years, this year will be known as the Renaissance of the new Black South Africa. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM: You know, South Africa is a tangled skein of history because various people from various parts of Africa and people from Europe and other continents in our universe converged on Africa, and here they tried to establish something. In the course of their wanderings, in the course of their treks, in the course of their nomadic existence in this subcontinent there were necessarily to be clashes with each other, and it is out of that crucible of time that we are trying to mould a future and better and happier South Africa for all races. Looking back along the road of the past fourteen years a panoramic view passes before my mind's eye, and all the personalities that I have known, so many who have passed on to the Great Beyond I see them all in this Hall today. They are too numerous to name. I can only name a few of the great names that spoke to the benefit of this House and to the benefit of South Africa. If I think of only one man whose death we still feel very near to our hearts - Paramount Chief Victor Poto, who has been playing such a paramount rôle in the formation of the Transkei ― we see a great man passing in this panoramic view before us. If we think of a man like Saul Mabude who died in a motor accident - a well-versed man, a man who actually pulled himself up by his own bootstraps to become a power behind the throne - we see another man who would have thrown a long shadow across the history of the Transkei. If we think of a man like C. K. Sakwe who was an old man when I came here already, and he sat there for many years, but the lips that spoke his wisdom are quiet now; and last but not least a man like Columbus Madikizela that very lovable man. I see the live members here, and it is better to let living dogs lie. (Laughter) I may just step on a corn here and a corn there, and I don't like corny things (Laughter) In any case, as the hon. the Chief Minister has pointed out, we have gone through a most eventful, historical and interesting period during these past fourteen years. You know, somebody asked me the other day: "Are you going to write a book?" I said: "I hope to write a book. " He said: "Will it be biography?" I said I didn't think so because a human being's life is cut up into certain compartments. Through the life of a human being who has certain beliefs, or who has a religion which is the binding factor of his life, there is a golden thread that binds one era to another and eventually ends at the bleak coast of sorrow, but if I attempted to subdivide my life (I am old enough to start with the dissection of my life now) (Laughter) I would say the very eventful Do you know, I was under years of my youth ... farm arrest when I was 14 years old, so house and farm arrest is nothing new to me. It was an eventful and a wonderful period your youth years when you were filled with fire. I am looking at my friend, Cromwell Diko, who could deliver such venomous speeches here and when I see how he has piped down I think of applying to him the adage of the great statesman Disraeli, who said if a man is not an anarchist at 25 he cannot be a conservative at 45. (Laughter) Now, what we have achieved here, Mr Chief Minister, during these past years has been done by our common cooperation. Co-operation was the word, it was the password to success. Yes, we differed sometimes and we differed bitterly sometimes, but it was always done in the spirit in which Christian gentlemen should differ, and if I may give you a sound bit of parting advice

332

it is this: Never nourish a grudge. If you keep nourishing grudges you will feel like a human being trying to hatch ostrich eggs.

soil and I am full of faith and hope that this edifice will grow and grow until it is seen from far and near as something which can take its place amongst other nations of the world. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM : If there is ever a champion for independence for every nation in the world, it is me. Independence is in my blood and I don't begrudge another man his desire to become independent. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM : On the other hand, I am anxious to assist. Do you know who are the best neighbours in the world? Two men who are dependent on each other but independent intimately, each in his own home. We are being encroached by common dangers in South Africa at this very moment, which are of such dimensions that we cannot see the end of it, and this South Africa of ours with its more than 20 million people will have to bear the brunt of the onslaught that is encroaching upon us. A man can only be a man in his own right and associate freely with other men when he is independent, and if he is independent in his own right he can say: Let us stand together and fight together. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM : So where you are, on the threshold of independence, how I wish I could be in at the kill. (Laughter) I hope you will invite me to come to your celebrations when some time you have an independent Transkei. To the paramount chiefs and chiefs present here today I wish to extend a word of hearty gratitude. Wherever and whenever I went to their Great Places they received me with the greatest courtesy and the greatest respect and the greatest hospitality. I would feel in my heart that these are my people. Mr Chairman, I would have liked to have answered so many things that the Leader of the Opposition said, but he might have construed it as a reply to a motion of no confidence. (Laugher) Now, you know, a funny thing about a parliament is that I have never heard an Opposition leader get up and propose a motion of confidence in anyone, but I would like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for the motion of confidence he has proposed in me, in fact. And, Mr Chairman, I think some of the things he said were true. If we forget everything else but remember one thing, it is this he asked me how I could carry on as I did at my age (but I am young!) (Laughter), and dedication to anything in which I believed has always been my mainstay in life and that has been the invigorating factor that allowed me to do what I did, or tried to do. Inspiration is a small portion of the creative might of God that is endowed to all human beings and if we have that little bit of creation in us we must create. I wish to wind up now, but I am winding up as the old Roman Senator Cato did. You know there were the wars between Rome and Carthage which lasted for years and years , and Senator Cato saw these wars between Carthage and Rome as the bane of progress to Rome and he ended every public oration (he was a wonderful orator) with these three Latin words: "Delenda est Carthago "; which means "And what is more, Carthage must be destroyed". (Laughter) One thing is that poverty must be destroyed, and poverty can be destroyed here in the Transkei by the correct cultivation of the land of your fathers under your feet. We have made progress. You know, there is an adage that says a man always sees his own neighbour's cattle getting fat. We have made progress, but we want more progress. And now, ladies and gentlemen (I am not calling you "members" because there are ladies too ,

You will sit there for ages and you will always think that a chicken will appear, but nothing will appear. (Laughter) In the meantime your soul gets embittered and you don't feel well if you don't feel bad. If there is one thing that is necessary amongst yourself and between the white Republican Government and your Government it is tolerance, tolerance and another time tolerance. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM: And a second thing which will be necessary more and more is sacrifice. Most of you have been towards the Cape across the great Storms River Bridge, this wonderful bridge spanning that deep gorge of the Storms River. It was constructed by Italian engineers and they constructed each span separately and they were lowered slowly by winches to hitch into each other but when they locked they were absolutely locked and they spanned the gorge which nobody thought would be spanned by a bridge. That is the way sacrifice goes. I don't want to cover the field that the Chief Minister has covered. He has done it very ably and he has sketched to us the historical events that took place, but I would like to thank him and his Cabinet and his colleagues for the fine co-operation that I have had from them at all times. On the other hand, I wish to thank the Opposition. Never did I have a bad word from them. You know what Dr. Verwoerd said to me in fact to all Commissioners-General when they were appointed . He said: "In the political developments which are bound to take place by granting greater self- sufficiency to the Bantu homelands there may arise political parties. Now, you who have been appointed to this task should not select one party above the other or try to disregard the Opposition and only regard the Government as the only means of communication. Keep friends with both parties, or with three or four parties if they exist. " You know, a man was once walking over a narrow bridge across a gorge and everytime he put forward one foot he said "Good God", and when he put forward the other foot he said "Good Devil", and there was a parson standing on the other side and he asked him why he kept swearing so much. The poor man said : "Well , I don't know where I am going to end so I must keep friends with both." (Laughter) I have been Commissioner-General for the Xhosa National Unit for the past fourteen years and when I was offered this post I said I would only accept it if I could go to the Xhosa people. Dr. Verwoerd asked me why I wanted to select the Xhosas, because I am a Transvaler. I told him my mother and father were born in the country of the Xhosas. They spoke typical Xhosa. That is why I said I wanted to go to the Xhosa people, because I had studied their history. I have spoken of compartments, and I had another compartment when I tried to eke out a livelihood at certain periods ― all of them honourable , though and then I went to parliament and, if I may so, I have had my off-days in parliament but I have had my on-days too . (Laughter) And all these various eras are very interesting to me and each one of them is worth writing a book about. I am still operative and I don't know what I will achieve until the end comes, but I want to make this very serious statement here today. Of all the phases in my life those that have been and those that are to come - these fourteen years are the copingstone of my life. I feel like an architect who saw a mighty edifice arising out of the

333

tion of principals and vice-principals to these senior schools should also be considered by the Public Service Commission. In so doing the Public Service Commission would, as it were have prior knowledge of the material available for future appointments to the inspectorate. It is therefore proposed that the Public Service Commission should in future consider the appointment and promotion of principals and vice-principals to high schools, training colleges, training schools and vocational schools and submit their considered recommendations prior to such appointments and promotions being approved by me in my capacity as Minister of Education. I may mention, Mr. Chairman, that the proposed amendment in no way alters the present method of appointment of other departmental officials, nor does it affect the transfer or discharge of any departmental official, including the principals and vice-principals of high schools, training colleges, training schools and vocational schools as originally provided for in the Transkei Education Act No. 9 of 1966. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I now move the second reading of the Transkeian Education Amendment Bill 1974. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I second, Mr. Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am happy to note that at last the hon. the Minister of Education has admitted that he has been acting rather arbitrarily, without control, in relation to the transfer or appointment of principals and viceprincipals of high schools, training colleges, training schools and vocational schools. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where is the admission? There is no admission there. Mr GUZANA: I am happy then, to note that he will now have to base his decision on a recommendation from the Public Service Commission. Principals and vice-principals of schools are responsible officials who should not be appointed arbitrarily, nor transferred or dismissed arbitrarily. This side of the House had at one stage some fears as to whether or not there were not political considerations in the transfer of principals and vice-principals from some of the schools to other schools in the past. We are happy, therefore, that you are going to have the brakes applied on what we regard as a turbulent Minister of Education (Interjections)

and I wonder whether my wife and the hon. Stella Sigcau are both weight-watchers, because I see they have both lost a lot of weight) (Laughter) it has been my honour to try and serve you for fourteen years, and if I can be of any assistance within the bounds of decency I shall be at your disposal when you call. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr ABRAHAM: I wish to thank you all for all the love, forbearance and patience you have shown to me here. Do you know, what makes my heart glad as I travel through the streets of Umtata or travel along the road is to hear "Ah, Somakhonkco !" It feels to me like a Zulu "Bayete!" I thank you all, each and everyone of you, and may God bless the Transkei. I shall not pray for unnecessary things because if you pray for unnecessary things you tire the Lord, but I will pray for the Transkei and I will pray for better race relations and I will pray for progress. May God hear our prayers and keep us friends, all of us, at all times. Thank you. Mr Chairman, I have seen many pictures of many white men who have shared in the construction of the Transkei as a state somewhere in this building, and I thought I would also like to be in that gallery. I would therefore like to hand over to the Chief Minister a photograph of myself. I may change the frame later on, but please accept it with my best wishes. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, just in one vociferous word I would ask this House to stand up and say "Hamba kahle, Somakhonkco!" The members responded accordingly. TRANSKEI FOREST BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Forest Bill be read a third time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second . Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.

PUBLIC SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkeian Public Service Amendment Bill 1974 be read a third time. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEIAN EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL: SECOND READING

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: A dynamic Minister of Education .

MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that this bill" the Transkeian Education Amendment Bill, be read for the second time, and if the Chairman permits me I have got a motivation here which is very short indeed. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister, won't that motivation be for the committee stage? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I think it is the second reading. It is not motivation, actually. CHAIRMAN: The Minister may continue. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, up to now the power to appoint and promote all teachers, including principals and viceprincipals at high schools, training colleges, training schools and vocational schools under the control of my department has been vested in me in my capacity as Minister of Education without reference to any other body. However, as it is from the ranks of the principals and vice-principals of these senior schools that the inspectorate is as a rule drawn, the Government has, after careful consideration, come to the conclusion that it would be desirable that the appointment and promo-

Mr GUZANA: Well, he describes himself as dynamic, but the word "dynamic" is derived from dynamite, and dynamite can demolish the best structures in the world. (Laughter) It is to be hoped that other teachers may well have to fall under this same principle in the future, for our complaint has always been that good teachers are transferred out of the classroom into fieldwork and you will have the bad teachers to do the work and the good teachers to come and inspect the bad work. One would have liked to see a reversal of that policy so that the good teachers remain in the classroom to teach the children efficiently, and be paid a salary which will cause no complaint, and get rid of the bad teachers out of the classroom by promoting them into the inspectorate. (Laughter) After all, what harm does the inspector do to the work of a good teacher? A good teacher need only ignore the stupidity of a stupid inspector (Laughter) What matters is how the children are taught, not how the teacher is inspected or what the inspector says of the teacher. And how is a good teacher who is an inspector going to inspect work which does not exist

334

abling clause providing for executive and administrative control as stipulated, Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, the question is "to appoint an officer to be styled the director of apprenticeship" what sort of man will he be? Where will he be appointed from? Mr H. PAMLA: Do you want an explanation of administration? Mr ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, if they strike this attitude we will be here until tomorrow morning. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. members have requested the hon. Minister to motivate where possible and it is in full agreement with our procedure. They are entitled to that explanation. I will not tolerate any heckling or remarks in so far as the motivation is concerned. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Will the hon. member repeat his question, please. Mr ZIBI: In connection with subsection 3(a) - in

because you have a poor teacher in the classroom? Your best guarantee for good work is to have the good teacher in the classroom. In the circumstances we will not oppose the second reading of the bill. The bill was read a second time. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think the committee stage of the bill should come tomorrow, 9th May. The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION PUBLIC SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House sits in committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second . Agreed to. House in Committee

Clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Public Service Pensions Amendment Bill has been approved by the committee without amendment . MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman the third reading of the bill will be on Thursday, 9th May.

fact, sction 3 as a whole. I am particularly interested in what kind of person is going to be appointed as a director to this office shown in this section who will be appointed by the Minister. Will it perhaps be a person who is already in the government service or just anybody who may be appointed to that office? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : If the hon. member looks at section 3 itself, it is said he will be appointed subject to the laws governing the public service and accordingly, with people who are appointed by the Public Service Commission it is usually a person with matric and in this case it will be somebody with the necessary experience. Clause 3 put and agreed to. Clause 4 put and agreed to. On Clause 5

APPRENTICESHIP BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sits in committee. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Seconded. Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, in connection with (xviii) I am asking for an explanation of the phrase "in kind", because that could very well mean free quarters, free medical attention or even food. What is the particular meaning of this phrase? (Interjections) Please help me, Mr. Chairman. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I think the hon. member has asked me a question and answered himself. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the hon, member satisfied with the answer? Mr ZIBI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Clause 1 put and agreed to . On Clause 2 Mr R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, while we appreciate the need for speed in dealing with these matters, it must be remembered that we have not got the Xhosa version of this bill and for the benefit of the hon. members who find difficulty in reading and understanding English could the hon. Minister take it upon herself to motivate, please. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Let them ask if they don't understand . They did not ask you.. Mr MADIKIZELA: They did. We would ask the hon. Minister to explain every clause. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. Minister please motivate. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What must she motivate on in particular? (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What was the request of the hon. member? Mr MADIKIZELA: My request was that the hon. Minister should oblige when we ask for explanations. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 MINISTER OF INTERIOR : This clause is an en-

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, section 5(2)(a), where one of two members shall be the chairman of the board. That, read with section 6(1)(a), where when the chairman is absent the members will allocate one of their members to be chairman - I am asking whether or not, in view of the fact that under section 5(2)(a) one of the two members appointed by the Minister has to be the chairman, the second member could not automatically be acting chairman when the chairman is absent, since you insist on one of the two appointed by the Minister being the chairman¸ MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I think this provision was made in case both of them are absent that is, both the member from this department — and where you still have a quorum to hold the meeting. Mr GUZANA: After all, Mr. Chairman, the Minister requires that the chairman shall be one of the two nominated by the Minister, therefore the second one who is also nominated by the Minister could possibly be the chairman when the other is away. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman, with regard to clause 5(1 ) . . .. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just a point of procedure, hon. member I have not managed to grasp the finality of the question asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I said, Mr. Chairman, that the point raised by the hon, the Leader of the Opposition, though it could be accommodated, we must also give cognizance to the fact that there might be an occasion when both these members are absent and there is a quorum, and then one of the other members can be chosen. Mr MGUDLWA: With regard to clause 5(1 ) which

335

states that the board shall consist of not more than seven persons as official members, I would like to know why it should be so fluid, because as far as I am concerned it is very fluid. Why specifically seven members? Why not eight? This is apprenticeship and these officials may not be conversant with the trades to be prescribed by the Minister at his or her disposal, and the very majority, in fact, consists of officials who may not be well conversant with apprenticeship or with the trades to be prescribed by the Minister. In so far as this section is concerned it is only two non-official members. I would that the Minister should put us in gear so far as that is concerned.

ing the question put by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in regard to (c), I think, in any case there can always be elasticity depending upon circumstances. Mr GUZANA: Is there a subsequent provision relating to this? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Yes, in clause 31 (1)(b). Mr GUZANA: I think we are creating too many penalties. Why can't a person give evidence without being put under oath? I will tell you why I say this. In terms of the Police Act where a board inquiry is held as to the fitness of a member to continue in the police force, witnesses do not take the oath nor do they make an affirmation. This, of course, dispenses with possible perjured evidence, but again I think it is an incentive to honesty in the sense that a person is put on his own conscience to tell the truth. When people can be charged with perjury because they have given false evidence this gives these inquiries a sort of judicial or semi-judicial effect. I just want your reaction I don't want to bind you, MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I think personally I would rather leave this section as it stands, because the intention of the whole Act is to protect both the apprentice and, to some extent, the employer too, and if there can be such elasticity the whole thing, according to my opinion, will lose meaning. (I am arguing like a layman.) (Laughter) Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9

MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I think if the hon, member read this section well he will know that section (d) says that one shall be an officer of the Public Service Commission appointed by that commission who shall act as a member of the board whenever any matter affecting any apprentice in the employ of the Government of the Transkei is being considered by the Board. That leads to the fluidity, as you point out. He is only appointed when things concerning the Government are discussed. Coming to the second point, if we are going to have people who are responsible to see to the carrying out of the Act we cannot have a group of interested persons — that is, a group of employers who may be employing these apprentices hence we only make an allowance for two members to represent organizations.

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, just the first line - "or other person present at any meeting of the board or at any investigation or interrogation under this Act" - isn't this rather a stringent provision ?

Mr MGUDLWA: In fact, I feel this is a bill and it affects the people and as such I feel there must be some parity. There are vested interests now in this bill and there must be some degree of parity because in fact, civil servants in the ordinary course of affairs are people who have followed just a mouse-track, as I may call it. (Laughter) They may not be very conversant with things that affect the apprenticeship of the Act. In the circumstances I move that the hon. Minister should bear with me when I ask such questions, because they are very relevant to this issue and it is not a question of rushing time more than that we must be thorough in legislating, because eventually there will be the penalty clauses where perhaps the intention of the legislature has to be sought by courts of law, and we do not want to be found wanting in that respect as lawmakers.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In what sense? Mr GUZANA: Here is a man who has been called as a witness and he gives evidence before this investigating body. Is this person not to speak to his evidence to a person other than members of the board after he has given his evidence? For instance, a witness in a criminal or civil trial can speak to his evidence after he has given his evidence MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I think the point about this secrecy to be observed is connected with the discussion while the case is being dealt with because you will find that the board might deal with the matter and later it might be referred to the director and then to the Minister, and if there is any disclosure in the interim it would not be in the interests of the board.

MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, as I said to the hon. member, at the stage where we are, where there has not even been a designation of the various trades, I think those two members are still sufficient. Any law is subject to amendment at a later stage. Clause 5 put and agreed to. Clauses 6 and 7 put and agreed to.

Mr GUZANA: I will accept that that may be the intention, but in terms of the section as it stands it does not say the secrecy will apply until there is finality, unless I am misreading the position. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There are many other things which are contained under this section. For instance, it says that any information relating to the proceedings or the discussions at any meeting of the board or concerning the financial or business affairs of any person, firm or business, which he has acquired in the exercise of his powers or the performance of any function or duty under this Act or while he was present at any such meeting, investigating or interrogation, as the case may be, shall not be disclosed. Now, you can imagine if a person, by reason of the fact that that person was subpoenaed or happened to be present at that particular meeting, should be allowed to go out and disclose all these matters which are mentioned here. Mr GUZANA: I can understand that. The point I am making is this : Here am I called to give evidence before this inquiry on a matter which is within my knowledge or within the knowledge of several people

On Clause 8 MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I wish to explain that the provisions of this section are designed to assist the board or the investigating officer to obtain information relevant to an inquiry into any matter falling within the functions of the board. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Under subsection 8(3) witnesses may be put on oath before giving evidence. Would perjured evidence before this board of inquiry be the basis of a criminal charge? Then under 8(5)(c), service of a subpoena, in view of the fact that our postal system is not of the best would a person who fails to appear where the subpoena has been served in terms of that subsection be regarded to have held the board in contempt? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, concern336

MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, I have explained the clause. Clause 11 put and agreed to. On Clause 12

other than myself. As a result of this prohibition, after I have given evidence before this board I may not refer to this information although this was within my knowledge before I gave my evidence and I might have used that information. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, this is quite clear and it does not relate to the evidence which a person gives. It relates to matters which he has acquired during the proceedings. Mr H. H. ZIBI : In the event of a breach, what is the penalty? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Never mind , you will hear. Clause 9 put and agreed to. On Clause 10 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Motivation on clause 10(2)(b) , please. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : When it comes to subsection (b), those are still things to be prescribed by the Minister. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I want some motivation from the hon. Minister in regard to section 10(2)(0) ― that is, the minimum or maximum number of apprentices. Why is it there is no ration of entitlement of apprentices to any such employer in that . . . MINISTER OF INTERIOR: It is because it has not been prescribed or designated as yet. Mr MGUDLWA: But why? Why should we be allowed to move in darkness in this matter? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We are not moving in darkness, we are making a law. Clause 10 put and agreed to. On Clause 11

MINISTER OF INTERIOR: This clause really is a safeguard against things like bribery. Clause 12 put and agreed to. Clause 13 put and agreed to. On Clause 14 Mr K. M. GUZANA: Is there any provision which requires that this contract of apprenticeship should be registered within so many days? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : See subsection (2) . It is within one month. Clause 14 put and agreed to. Clause 15 put and agreed to. On Clause 16 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Motivation, please, Mr Chairman. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What section of the clause do you want motivated? Mr ZIBI: The whole section. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: I think the hon. member is just saying "Motivation" for the sake of talking. That section is really self-explanatory. Clause 16 put and agreed to. On Clause 17

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : In subsection (5) I am worried here and I wonder if the hon. Minister will not take this into consideration ― that is, the word "shall". It says that if the apprentice fails the qualifying proficiency or trade test prescribed in terms of section 10(2)(h) in respect of the designated trade concerned, his contract shall be extended by twelve months. Why should this be peremptory? Why should it not be "may"? MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: If he has failed , how can it be "may"? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I don't think there is any need for an explanation there. Clause 17 put and agreed to. Clause 18 put and agreed to. On Clause 19 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, I am worried about the suspension of these apprentices. I would like to know what the circumstances may be, etc. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : As the clause explains, suspension occurs when there has been a breach of the terms of the contract, and the period for which a person can be suspended is stated in this clause. It does not exceed the number of days worked in a week. Clause 19 put and agreed to. On Clause 20

MINISTER OF INTERIOR : There is a question I am anticipating, Mr Chairman, and I want to explain beforehand. I want to emphasize that the clause refers only to persons employed in a designated trade. “Trade” is the keyword there. It does not prohibit employers from employing any persons who do not fall within the category. For instance, you cannot call a clerk working in a motor mechanics firm an apprentice. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Referring to clause 11 ( 1)(a) , won't that wording confuse, or is not confusing? For example, I would anticipate that after the word "employment" there should be "as a skilled worker" perhaps. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What is wrong with "designated"? Mr MGUDLWA: There is a labourer who is not required to pass any test, in fact. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What is wrong with "designated" in that context? Mr MGUDLWA: There is nothing wrong which has been designated as yet. It is still to be. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, and this will function after something has been designated . Mr MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, we are dealing with a bill here and we have to be serious about it because a labourer may be employed ... MINISTER OF JUSTICE: A labourer will not be employed in a designated trade. Mr MGUDLWA: For example, there is the Industrial Conciliation Act, you know, and it seems as if there is some overlapping in this. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is no overlapping. Mr MGUDLWA: There is.

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Under subsection 20(1)(b) what would be, in a hypothetical situation, the reasons that would satisfy the board or the director that the contract should be cancelled? Could you give us an example? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Drunkenness on duty. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I think in any trade or form of employment, if there is prolonged illness, for example, which is detrimental to progress that could be a reason. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Or he has been proved to be such a dud that it is realised he will never qualify. Mr GUZANA: Then he should never have started .

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The attorney from Lusikisiki who briefed you briefed you wrongly. Mr MGUDLWA: I would require some motivation.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Who could know? MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Education is going to provide us with applicants . 337

On Clause 26

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. members please stand up when they speak. Clause 20 put and agreed to. On Clause 21

Mr H. H. ZIBI: In subsection (1) it says the Minister may, subject to the laws governing the public service, appoint any person as an inspector. I would like to know how this inspector will be chosen. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is subject to the laws governing the public service. Does that not give you what you want? Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am afraid the Chairman is now participating in the discussions. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: No. Mr GUZANA: With respect, Sir, you can rule us out but you are not required to give explanations. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Chairman is not giving an explanation. He is merely pointing out to the member who is asking the provisions of this. Mr GUZANA: That is for the Minister concerned. MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He wants to know if the member does not understand even if it is so clear. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does it mean the Chairman will be stupid even when this thing is so clear. Clause 26 put and agreed to. On Clause 27

Mr H. H. ZIBI : How are the terms going to be modified? MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Say, Mr Chairman, there are some facts which were not fully put in the contract and it causes dissatisfaction of one party or the other, then if these facts are included in the contract that is a modification of he contract. ' Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Isn't there a prescribed form of contract between the employer and the apprentice? And is there not a uniform standard of agreement? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They may disagree even with that. Does it mean because it is uniform that people cannot disagree? Clause 21 put and agreed to. Clause 22 put and agreed to. On Clause 23 Mr H. H. ZIBI: Motivation, please. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: As I said before, I think the hon. member just says "Motivation" for the sake of talking. The whole clause is purely administrative and it sets out what procedure to follow when appealing to the Minister. Clause 23 put and agreed to. On Clause 24

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, subsection 27(1)(b) ― "or at any other time". I require an explanation from the hon. Minister so far as that is concerned. (Interjections) I wish to draw your attention Mr Chairman, to that hon. member - I don't know whether to call him Mr Jomo Kenyatta or what, but he resembles him. (Laughter) Also subsection (c) is contentious too, and I would like an explanation . MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is this explanation

Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, subsection 24 (2)(b) — I think it is common knowledge that cases before our courts may take upwards of four months or more before they are finalized and the dismissed employee may not be in employment for that period until the employer has been convicted, yet the court here may order that the employer pay the employee a sum estimated by the court to be equal to three months ' remuneration when the employee has been out of employment for six months. Now, what would happen in respect of his pay for a period in excess of three months ? Can he sue the employer, or what redress can he have, especially when the finding of the court is that the employee was altogether innocent and it was the fault of the employer? MINISTER OF INTERIOR: The intention here, Mr Chairman, is to cover an employee who is dismissed, and that three months is taken as if it is in lieu of notice. Mr GUZANA : No, the employee is not responsible for the delay in the finding. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I must admit, Mr Chairman, that the speaker has a point there. Can we leave it hanging for future reference? Mr GUZANA: Yes, future reference being before we rise from the committee sitting. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does it mean we will not approve of this clause? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No.

you want? If it says "at any other time" what do you want to know here? Mr H. H. ZIBI : The explanation is on the "other". MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is not this time, it is the other time. It is obvious. Clause 27 put and agreed to. Clause 28 put and agreed to. On Clause 29 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Motivation, please. We want to know what the conditions of exemption are. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: This is an enabling clause which empowers the Minister on the recommendation of the board to grant exemption from all or any of the provisions of the Act or from any condition of apprenticeship where special circumstances exist to justify such exemption. For example, in the case of a government apprentice or, where remuneration is concerned, to an employer who pays an apprentice at a rate higher than that laid down. Clause 29 put and agreed to. On Clause 30 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, what acts and omissions are referred to here? MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Acts or omissions which appear under the Act whereby the employer becomes responsible for the omissions of the employees. Clause 30 put and agreed to. Clause 31 put and agreed to. On Clause 32

Mr GUZANA: If I may suggest, Mr Chairman, it is just approved subject to further explanation. Clause 24 put and agreed to. Clause 25 put and agreed to. Mr H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman, for the benefit of these "Agreeds", can we have motivation of these clauses? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Not for the benefit of yourself? Mr ZIBI: No, for the "Agreeds". MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, if people agree they agree.

Mr H. H. ZIBI : What happens to the amount in question if the employee shall have left the firm in the meantime? Who orders the employer to pay, and suppose the man has left the employ of that particular employer, what then happens? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is obvious he will be present because he has made a claim. Clause 32 put and agreed to.

338

On Clause 33

reading will be on Thursday, 9th May, or so soon thereafter. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 9th May 1974.

Mr K. M. GUZANA: In subsection (2) where the age may be estimated by the inspector, and if any interested person is not satisfied he may require a district surgeon to examine and estimate the age, would an estimation of age previously made by a judicial officer or magistrate be accepted if it is at variance with that of the inspector? Just to save him from the expense of going to the district surgeon. MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I think the estimation of the district surgeon applies in a case where a person himself, without any previous authority · Mr GUZANA: In other words, if there is a previous estimation then that will be accepted? Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: In subsection (9) "Whenever any person is charged with having, in contravention of section 24(1), dismissed any person employed "" by him or reduced the rate of his remuneration . . Is this not an apprenticeship bill? MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, it is. Mr MGUDLWA: Read down to the last sentence. What about the Wage Determination Act and the Industrial Conciliation Act? Isn't this bill intended to encroach or infringe all those? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, it is not. This is an Apprenticeship Act. Mr MGUDLWA: There is nothing specific about the person employed. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member for Tabankulu go back to his seat and stop that noise. I never make threats. Go back to your seat.

THURSDAY, 9th MAY 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day, were after amendment, taken as read and confirmed. NOTICE OF MOTION

CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman, may I crave the indulgence of the House to introduce an unopposed motion, and to move that the rules of the House be waived in order to allow me to move this motion. Agreed to. CHIEF NDAMASE : I move accordingly, Mr Chairman and hon. members: "That the Pondo people request this Assembly to place on record their sincere appreciation and heartfelt gratitude for the part played by the hon. the Chief Minister, the Cabinet, the Transkei Government and the Republican Government in respect of the funeral arrangements of the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto." Mr Chairman and hon. members, I would like to make a few remarks in connection with this motion. No sooner had the hon. the Chief Minister heard of the passing away of the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni than he released all the members of Nyanda region to go home and make arrangements. With great appreciation we listened to the speeches of the hon. the Chief Minister as well as the Leader of the Opposition when they spoke to the motion of condolence. When we had advised the hon. the Chief Minister of the time the hearse would leave East London for Nyandeni the Chief Minister acted immediately in advising the towns of Butterworth, Idutywa and Umtata of the procession, and he also made suitable arrangements for those people who accompanied the body from East London in order that they could obtain petrol . Similar arrangements were made for motorists to get petrol on Sunday, the day of the funeral. The Chief Minister then came with his Cabinet to advise us that our Paramount Chief would be given a State funeral. That was most commendable as the Government assisted

Mr MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I want to know whether this Act does not encroach into the Wage Determination Act and also the Industrial Conciliation Act.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The reply is simple, Mr Chairman. It does not infringe. Clause 33 put and agreed to. Clauses 34 to 36 put and agreed to. MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I think it is high time that the members of the gallery realise they are here by privilege, including the members of the Press if they are responsible for this humming noise which we constantly hear in this House. We make enough noise here and we don't want any addition from persons who are not supposed to be here, so they should please bear with us and not disturb us. If they want to disturb us they must seek election when elections take place and come and discuss things here. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Any more noise and you will walk out.

with the funeral expenses. The roads were attended to so that all who went to the funeral had no difficulty. The Republican police as well as the Transkeian police were present at the Great Place to ensure that all arrangements were carried out smoothly. We received counsel and advice from the hon. the Chief Minister in order that the funeral arrangements should be carried out smoothly. Respect was not only shown on the day of the funeral but the whole of the Transkei mourned the death of our Paramount Chief on Monday when all businesses were closed for two hours. When you have been rendered such assistance it is not an easy thing to find the necessary words of thanks. This assistance was greatly appreciated by the children of Faku and they have been much comforted. We hope you will do so even tomorrow, as we say in our Xhosa idiom. Thank you, Mr Chairman. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the remarks made by the hon. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase. In truth, together with all the Pondos I am very grateful for all the Transkeian and the Republican Governments did. They performed a service which we had not expected. The hon. the Chief Minister and his Cabinet attended the funeral and even that was a

On Clause 37 Mr L. L. MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, there is no Xhosa version and I would that these terms be translated, because some of us have not had the privilege of education. What does "repeal" mean? MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, it means to pull back. In other words, it means to put an end to a law which was in existence. Clause 37 put and agreed to. Clause 38 put and agreed to. Schedule put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Apprenticeship Bill 1974 has been approved by the committee without amendment. MINISTER OF INTERIOR: Mr Chairman, the third 339

in court that the employee was victimized by the employer, and provision has thus been made for the payment of compensation to the employee equal to three months' remuneration, the period of three months being regarded as reasonable under these circumstances. It may be added that even where the employer has given the employee a month's notice and has paid him for that month, he will still be liable to pay the three months' remuneration under this section if it has been proved that he has victimized that employee. The amount is payable notwithstanding that the employee may have already taken up other employment. It is clear, therefore, that this is an additional penalty. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, is the hon. Minister who deputized prepared to put his foot into it and go further? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I will make notes. Mr GUZANA: Is it the contention of the hon. Minister that the dismissal, though illegal, terminates the contract of apprenticeship? Would the employee who has been dismissed illegally, and this is proved to be so by a court, be entitled to take up other employment in view of the fact that there might probably be a finding against the employer? I take it that if the court finds the employer at fault then the contract of apprenticeship still stands as between the employer and employee, and the employee must return to the employer to continue his period of apprenticeship. In other words, he may not enter into another contract with another employer while this case is still pending, and if the court finds that the employer acted illegally, and it means the termination of the contract is illegal and the contract still binds the two - that is, the employer and the employee - and if that is so what if the matter is not finalised until a period of more than three months after the illegal termination of the contract? I think the argument that a clause has been in existence for thirty years does not hold water, because we amend these laws which are becoming obsolete. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, my explanation to the queries which have been raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in this matter is that it is a well-known fact that no employer can be forced to keep an employee in his service. Mr GUZANA : But there is a contract of apprenticeship. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is known and there is no doubt about it that the relations between the employer and employee will be strained before the contract has been ... CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, this is the third reading and not the committee stage of the Apprenticeship Bill, so I think ... Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, may I crave your indulgence on this issue? The hon. the Minister of the Interior did reserve comments on this section to be made at the third reading because at the time there was not a ready answer to the queries which had been raised, and that is why we are taking advantage of this opportunity, Sir. CHAIRMAN: It is most unfortunate that the hon. the Minister of the Interior is not present, so I don't think we should proceed further because there is no responsible Minister. Mr GUZANA: There is the responsible Minister. He is acting for her. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I have replied, Mr Chairman. Mr GUZANA: Well, we should take you up on the matter.

source of comfort to us. Even the words they spoke to us comforted us and made us strong. We very much appreciated the casket in which the Paramount Chief was laid to rest. It is only the second time I have seen this. In reading the messages of condolence I was certain that the Paramount Chief was known throughout the country. That is what is required of a paramount chief. Everyone was there, to the extent that our hearts were comforted. The last speaker said you should not be tired even tomorrow. What he means by that is that other paramount chiefs should be buried in like manner. That is a task placed upon you as a Government. In short, Mr Chairman, we are grateful for what the Government did. This is a motion that is non-contentious and we are not expected to expatiate much on a motion of this nature which is unopposed. The entire nation of the Pondos, both east and west, are very thankful to the Government. All the people who were there were outnumbered by the people who attended from Eastern Pondoland. We commend your action and we shall never forget your gesture and that of the Republican Government. We say even tomorrow please repeat this gesture. Agreed to. GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, hon. members, on behalf of the hon. Minister concerned I stand to move that the bill concerned be read for the third time. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Who is the Minister concerned? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Minister of the Interior. Mr GUZANA: Well why not say so?

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.

Mr

APPRENTICESHIP BILL : THIRD READING MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Again, Mr Chairman, before I move the third reading of the bill I must lay on the table certified copies of the Xhosa and Afrikaans versions of the bill and at the same time move that the bill be read a third time. Also, Mr Chairman and hon. members, there is a motivation of clause 24(2)(b), and if you will allow me to read it I will do so. This provision is taken from section 34 of the Apprenticeship Act 1944 of the Republic and has stood the test of time a matter of thirty years. The provision is an additional penalty upon the employer who victimizes his employee by dismissing him on the grounds of a suspicion or belief on his part that the employee has given information to an inspector which might be prejudicial to him. The dismissal of an employee in these circumstances is a criminal offence for which the employer will be fined . The imposition of a fine is, however, not satisfaction in so far as the employee is concerned, and the Act consequently enables the court which convicts the employer to order him to pay a sum equal to three months' remuneration. Such an order has the effect of a civil judgment and is consequently a summary procedure whereby the employee is saved the cost and expense of instituting a civil action. Ordinarily, the employee would be entitled to pay in lieu of one month's notice - notice which the employer could have given him in any case for the purpose of terminating his services. In the circumstances contemplated by the section, however, it has been proved

340

reply to the hon. Mr Zibi's question, I would like the hon. the Minister to enlighten me, because he has said "No" so far as the head of the department is concerned, so I should like him to enlighten the House of the procedure when the discharge of the head of the department is contemplated. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, so far as I believe, if ever this has been done that the Secretary of a department be discharged, I think really it will be the Cabinet and such contemplated action will be referred to the Cabinet. Mr GUZANA: Doesn't the Public Service Commission have a say in it? MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And at the same time the Public Service Commission, which is an instrument of the Cabinet, will have to be consulted . Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. House Resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members of the House, I wish to report that the Transkeian Education Amendment Bill 1974 has been adopted by this committee without amendment. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I propose that the third reading will be tomorrow.

CHAIRMAN: So could the Deputy Minister of the Interior please motivate. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I move that this bill be read for the third time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second. CHAIRMAN : So we shall pass on. Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I do think we are forgetting our procedure. I do think you should ask those who are in favour and those who are not, because we have indicated a dissension. Motion put and agreed to. The bill was read a third time. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I move that this House should sit in committee. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that this bill is so short and also that the bill is so non-controversial and in view of the fact again that I know the positive attitude of the Opposition, I move that this bill be read a third time. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister, please move the adoption of clause 1 . MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I move accordingly the adoption of clause 1 of the bill. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, we are a bit confused. May we have this committee stage properly piloted? MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, let me make this clear. I stand to move that this House must sit in committee. CHAIRMAN: We are in committee now and we are dealing with section 1 and you have moved that section 1 be passed . On Clause 1 Mr H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, section (1)(b) says subject to the provisions of this Act the Minister shall have the power to discharge any departmental official from the service of the department. My interest is to find out from the Minister if that affects the Secretary of the department as well. I am thinking of what we have always been told by our Minister, that the Secretary of a department heads the department. Is he now also affected by this particular section? That is all I want to know. May I make it clear that I am not referring to seconded officials, but I am looking forward to a time when the Secretary will be a Transkeian citizen. MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In answer to what the hon. member across the floor wants to know, if this is applicable to the Secretary of the department, I will say definitely not. Mr K. M. GUZANA: I suppose these transfers and discharges will be motivated? What I mean is that we don't want an arbitrary transfer and discharge of departmental officials. Do we take it that before such transfer or discharge is effected there shall be motivation to the Minister for the transfer or discharge? And since discharge is termination of services, will the official concerned have had representation either by correspondence or by legal assistance. MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I think the procedure already is being followed. There is no officer, really, who can be discharged unless, if that should be the case, a motivation will have to be made and submitted to me. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Arising out of the Minister's

SUGGESTED EDUCATION PROGRAMME The debate was resumed . Mr M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I rise to move an amendment to the motion by the deletion of all the words after "should" and by the substitution for them of the following words : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should be congratulated on its extensive programme for the improvement of education and educational facilities in the Transkei." Granting that the hon. piloter of the motion is still burning with enthusiasm . . . Mr K. M. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member indicated that he would substitute words for words appearing in the motion and he did not give us the words, but merely said so that t' he motion should read thus · May we have the words which are being substituted and then the motion read with the substitution. Mr LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I said I wished to move an amendment by the deletion of all the words after "should", and here are the words that I substitute for the deleted words: "be congratulated on its extensive programme for the improvement of education and educational facilities in the Transkei." Granting that the hon. piloter of the motion may still be burning with the enthusiasm of representing the Transkeian people, and by reason of the power vested in him by the electorate may still agitate for better educational facilities in the Transkei, this side of the House, being far from the intention of applying brakes to the progress of the Transkei, will nevertheless not indulge such feelings of enthusiasm. Yes, we have no hesitation in pronouncing the hon. member's speech decidedly the best ever delivered in this House on a motion of this nature. His speech contains quite new and curious information of which excellent use could be made, but the valuable message of his speech clearly borders either on a stupendous lack of appreciation or on total ignorance of the activities of this Government. The amendment to the motion therefore seeks to rouse in the heart of this hon. member a sense of appreciation, or to remove from his beclouded mind the darkness of ignorance. At the same time the amendment has thoughts of

341

arousing awareness in the minds of the public of what has happened, and is still happening in the field of education in the Transkei. Mr GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I originally asked for the words of the amendment, and I think this amendment has not been submitted to the table because when I asked for it from the table it was not there. We would like the amendment to be available and that it be at the table. Mr LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, the amendment will be on the table just now. So, Mr Chairman, I will begin by stating quite categoricaly that the Government has launched an extensive programme for the improvement of education in the Transkei on which it ought to be congratulated. We all know that financial matters used to be the sole responsibility of the White boardingmasters who were ministers of religion. Mr GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this amendment has no source from which it comes. It has not been signed, it has not been dated, it has not been submitted in duplicate. I move that this hon. member cannot speak to an amendment which is not properly before this House, Mr R. ' MADIKIZELA : I second, Mr Chairman. (Interjections). Mr GUZANA: It is not a matter of who agrees or who does not agree, Mr Chairman. It is just that the hon. member has not complied with the rules, that is all. CHAIRMAN: Could the hon. member please comply accordingly. Mr LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I ask that the House should indulge me and allow me to proceed with my speech. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will give the opportunity to the member to proceed because there is a precedent to that effect.

ment is subsidising the training of teachers to a point of exhausting the coffers of the country. Hon, members should desist from thinking that money from Pretoria and the Transkeian sources of revenue comes like manna descending from heaven. Already the Government is providing a lot of equipment for the training of teachers who, once they have qualified, make through the very same hon, members a disturbing noise in the ears of the Government with their demands for better wages or salaries. Again, the delivery of teacher-trainees by bus to all the primary schools is another form in which the Government subsidises the training of teachers. Perhaps the hon. members of the Opposition think that the buses delivering these teachers are XGs or Government buses. It is time hon. members uncovered their eyes and understood that Bam and other bus concerns drain the coffers of the Government in this way. So we can see already that the Government is doing a lot of subsidisation. Next year the Government will be subsidising books for junior secondary schools, and that expenditure in itself will be very high. If more subsidies in addition to this were incurred then other Government services would have to starve. In fact, there are free bursaries for everyone doing JSTC and a few for those doing PTC, but hon. members don't know anything about that, I suppose. Mr Chairman, the happiest and truest confession that has been made to the Government and this House came from the mover of the motion, when he implicitly acknowledges Government concern for adult education. That is the secret of it. If the mover and the piloter of the motion had only embraced their discovery instead of quarreling with it, what a splendid contribution they could have made, but instead they destroyed their discovery when they implied to the House that the Government is not laying emphasis on adult education. If I were to repeat to this House the efforts of the Government to emphasise adult education some of you hon. members would be lulled to sleep, others would be bored out of patient listening and forced to mix the drugs of Lethe and the water of immortality. But just think of the work of Mr Ntloko. Last year the cultural section of the Department of Education, which is responsible for adult education, established about 40 adult schools. In Engcobo, where the hon. member who spoke to this motion comes from, there is the Hambani adult school, there is the Pongomile adult school , there are many more. So why all this fuss? On the point of more secondary and high schools I cannot help but sympathise with the mover. The point is that some of these things are too complicated for the understanding of the simple minds of some of the hon. members of the Opposition. I am thinking of the new system of education that will come into operation with effect from next year. The old system of education has been streamlined mainly to give us what the motion seeks of the Government.

Mr LUDIDI: Thank you. Mr GUZANA: May we be referred to the precedent, please - specifically. CHAIRMAN : I may quote several speakers and hon. members in this House who have done that. The Paramount Chief of Tembuland and the hon. Chief S. S. Majeke have done that before . Please continue. Mr LUDIDI : Thank you, Mr Chairman. However, under this Government financial matters in all government schools are now handled by Government-employed clerks, which hon. members of the Opposition who honestly think that parliamentary papers are a bookshop decoration did not see, but which will be found under sub-head A of Vote 3 of the Estimates of Expenditure for the year ending 31st March 1975. Mr Chairman, on page 19 of that White Paper we find what the hon. member tried to put across to this House, at times in a choleric manner. We find it written there in black and white. Indeed, any hon , member of the Opposition who is not blindfolded and mentally disabled will not fail to see under that subhead the existence of the designation of clerks, grade 1 and 2. So the call by the motion for employment of clerks at schools is entirely an irresponsible statement which reveals the ignorance of the hon. member. (Laughter). Or should we interpret his redundant call as a deliberate move to imply to the public that the Government is doing nothing in this respect? Then I may add that equally irresponsible is the move for the subsidisation of the training of teachers. Hon. members for Engcobo and Nyanda seem to be wearing blinkers if they are unintelligent enough to interpret Government policy in that they expect subsidisation to be carried out by the Government in the only and simple form they can understand. In view of this, I am giving it to them now that the Govern-

Let us consider the new system, usually referred to as the "three-year structure". We will be having SubStandards A and B and Std, 1 as lower primary. (I am trying to make this structure simple for some of the members of the Opposition) , Stds 2, 3 and 4 will be higher primary; Stds. 5, 6 and 7 junior secondary; Stds. 8, 9 and 10 senior secondary. Now, what is important about the system is that Stds. 5, 6 and 7 are, roughly speaking, an equivalent of the former Junior Certificate. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: What has that to do with the motion? Mr LUDIDI: According to the new system almost

342

established more secondary and high schools. Whilst the Department of Education intends to introduce a new structure in 1975, at present we still have secondary and high schools and therefore it is proper that we speak to what is in existence at the present moment. The insistence of the mover on the stablishment of more schools derives from the fact that our ultimate objective is to have compulsory education in the Transkei, so that our programme should be geared to this objective and we should build more schools so that when we introduce compulsory education the facilities are available. What is happening now at our secondary and high schools? Almost at every secondary school in the Transkei pupils are turned away because there is not sufficient accommodation both in the hostel and in the classroom. These children are lost to education altogether, because some of them are absorbed in the labour market and do not return to school again. Potential scientists, potential geniuses, fall by the wayside because this Government thinks that it has done enough in providing secondary and high school education. Many of the children are turned away after passing Std. 6 and the parents are filled with frustration in their aspirations to educate their children and ask the question: Is it worthwhile trying to get my child to school when he will only go as far as Std. 6 and will not be accommodated beyond that standard? So that propaganda to have parents send their children to school is thwarted by the fact that when the parent sends the child to school the child cannot be taken into any school. How often have you met frustrated parents sending telegrams, making pleas, coming to the Department of Education seeking to have their children squeezed into an overfilled school? How many of you as members of this House have had to make representations on behalf of parents in order to get their children into a secondary school, so that no Government can ignore the frustration which comes upon the parent and the intending pupil by saying it is doing enough in the field of education.

every school formerly known as Higher Primary will almost automatically become Junior Secondary. How many schools with Std. 6 are there at present? And when some of those schools assume the status of Junior Secondary, how many of those schools will there be? Indeed, more than necessary, Mr Chairman. So the Government has already done something in this regard. The motion is just a symbol of an ill-advised and illinformed marching behind the times. To drive my point home, I wish to quote the Secretary for Education. This is a cutting taken from the Daily Dispatch edition of 13th February 1974: "Mr Heystek said many of the Higher Primary schools would be upgraded to Junior Secondary schools when the new system was to be put into effect. In our existing secondary schools we should have sufficient classroom and hostel accommodation and these will further increase facilities for pupils in Stds. 8, 9 and Matric and decrease the time spent in boarding-schools by two years. " So, hon. members of the House, what is going to happen to the number of secondary schools in the Transkei once the system comes into operation? The concern for permanent employment of married women seems to spring from economic motives rather than from care for the education of our children. Mr H. PAMLA: Hear, hear. Mr LUDIDI: In most cases the concern appears to be motivated by the selfishness of certain persons who want to augment their family purses, yet to employ married women permanently would certainly leave young qualified girls with no employment opportunities. That would mean that they won't taste the fruits of their labour and their parents would be the losers. In the end girls would see no point in going into the teaching profession. There is another objection to this idea, no matter how feeble the objection may be. The African is not yet mature in the sense that he is socially responsible. His individual needs override those of the whole community, so the average African will not release his wife to be a fulltime civil servant. Sometimes the wife must go to the field to hoe (Laughter) if she is not tied down by the care of a newly born babe. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr LUDIDI: Is that what they mean by a civil servant? Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I really do hope that we are going to have this amendment which does not get to the table, and you are placed in a difficult position where you are unable to call for a seconder to that amendment because it has not been placed before you. May I have direction, Sir, as to whether I speak with the knowledge of an amendment before you or I just speak to the motion as it stands?

Many of these children then roam the streets, become the victims of drugtaking, some of them fall pregnant and all sorts of evils become consequential upon the fact that the Department of Education is not having sufficient schools to take up these children. Therefore anybody who says there are adequate secondary and high schools must have his mind read ... Mr PAMLA: He said next year. Mr GUZANA : • • for there are the visible facts, the tangible facts, the well-known facts which are crying aloud for more secondary and high schools. If by June this year we will have thirty (I challenge anybody) - thirty new secondary schools established they would be filled to capacity with students, and I can never condone an attitude which accepts as a matter of course that those who seek education should be kept out of the school because there is not a sufficient number of schools to absorb them.

CHAIRMAN: Is there any seconder to the amendment? Mr GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I shall speak to the motion as it stands until the amendment comes. The trouble with the last speaker, the hon. member for Matatiele, is that he thinks that the best thing to do to a Government is to pat its back so that sooner or later we will have a Government that thinks it is the Almighty and All-doing without applying itself to the needs of the people, and one sometimes wonders whether or not the hon. member should not be sent to one of these secondary schools and take part in the debatingsociety debates where students still think that to use flowery language is to speak English. Mr H. PAMLA: He is being personal, Mr Chairman,

If ever there was any factor which contributes to "tsotsi ism" and delinquency it is the lack of education facilities, particularly in developing countries ; and as you continue not to provide adequate schools to take up young folk in education, so must you invest more and more in adult education because these prospective pupils are going to grow into adults who will require adult education. Therefore as you proliferate educational facilities for the young, so do you reduce your expenditure on the education of the adults. The Roman Catholics say: Give me your child for the first six years and I shall give it back to you and you won't make anything different of it from what I did to it in

Mr GUZANA: As the motion stands, it seeks to have

343

the first six years of its life. So that it is altogether callous and almost suicidal on our part to ignore education facilities for our children as they are at a susceptible growing age. The hon, member continues to run out with the amendment. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : He is coming. Mr GUZANA: Nobody can gainsay the imperative need, therefore, for the establishment of more schools, be they secondary, be they high, be they primary, be they junior, be they senior. More and more schools is the operative phrase. Mr PAMLA: Raise the taxes.

is subsidizing civil servants who take correspondence courses in order to improve their academic qualification; it makes available bursaries and scholarships in order to have members of the civil service trained at Fort Hare for judicial posts and otherwise, and the motive for this subsidization is to get the best man in the service. Why should we then sneeze at a policy of subsidization of the training of teachers who are handling the minds, the bodies and the souls of the nation as it grows? Then I speak to the third subsection of this motionthe employment of clerks to handle all matters of finance. The hon. member for Matatiele indicated that there were such clerks employed, but I am afraid the majority of the members here do not know of that fact. In fact, I can boldly state that there are no clerks employed specifically to look after funds and various sums of money falling into various categories passed from the pupil and from the parent to the school authorities. There are tuition fees, book fees, boarding fees, sports fees, fees for medical services and deposits against damage to school property. The net result is that these various sums which are paid in are never accounted for separately. In most cases receipts in respect of payments are not issued. Sums sent by ordinary post and sometimes sums sent by registered letter are disputed. It is impossible to get an on-the-spot report as to the parents' balance of financial obligation to the institution or to the school. No statements are sent to parents in respect to the use of the money that is paid in and I say this with particular reference to book fees. Now, it is impossible for the principal or the vice-principal to do this work in addition to his teaching and organizational duties. Were a clerk to be employed specifically to look to the finances then statements would be issued and there would be none of that confusion which characterizes the accounting of some of these schools - and, since money is like honey which catches the flies, the principal would find himself insulated from the honey. Were he not to handle the funds there would be no finger pointed at him when there is dispute over finance. Then I speak to the fourth subsection - increased emphasis on adult education. I think this is a very important factor in any educational system in a country that is looking forward to development, and this is more important than most things in the Transkei where people who can neither read nor write are required to define and to determine their destiny. One of the reasons why the governing side has skirted away from referring the subject of independence to the electorate is that it regards the electorate as an illiterate body. (Interjections). The Government therefore has a responsibility to those adults who have to be made productive in the Transkei so that the adult population which forms a considerable labour force in the Republic can look after itself, so that when educated they can provide a home environment conducive to educational progress,

Mr GUZANA: To suggest that because part of the present primary school will become part of the future junior secondary school does not necessarily multiply the number of schools, so that the hon. member is labouring under a misapprehension if he thinks that to split an orange into eight sections you have eight oranges when there is only one. (Laughter) I move to the next subsection of this motion — the subsidization of training of teachers. If you are honest to yourselves you will see that this is a key to uplifting the educational standard of our people, for I believe that money spent in training teachers is an investment which will yield dividends first of all in the standard of education that the people attain, in the quality of education that the people attain in their utility as workers in the economic field. Most teachers get the minimum qualification to be able to teach because of economic circumstances that compel them to maintain a father and a mother, to maintain brothers and sisters, so that his earnings are not available for him to extend his training in the job he is supposed to do. We want that the man or the woman who handles the minds and the souls of our children at their formative period must be properly trained for the job, so that the teacher who is in the primary school should have at least an academic qualification equivalent to matric and the teacher who teaches in the secondary school must at least have a degree so that he has the material, the subject matter to deliver before he is trained professionally - that is in the methods of teaching. What do we have now in our secondary and high schools? We have matriculants teaching matriculants. Now, what is he able to impart by way of subject matter to the pupils in matric when he passed the class probably by mistake? He has none of the vast knowledge and subject matter which should be at his disposal to pass on to the children. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr GUZANA: Now, how are we going to put right that wrong? Any government which has any responsibility to its people will subsidise the training of teachers so that we have a razor-edge of a teacher in the classroom and none of these rusty instruments. (Laughter) I move an adjournment, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned.

so that as educated adult folk they help to reduce the conditions that militate against health, that militate against social stability, that militate against exploitation.

AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the suggested programme for education in the Transkei was resumed. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon, members, I was speaking to the subsidisation of the training of teachers, and my emphasis is on the fact that a teacher must be a well-trained man. It is unbelievable to think that in a sphere where the best should be our minimum demand we should be prepared to settle with the second best and it is not as if this Government is not aware of the benifits that derive from subsidizing the training of personnel . the At present moment this Government

Let me say as a last observation that the wealth of a nation is in the physique of the people who comprise that nation, as well as in the minds that are open, as well as in the spirit that finds fulfilment in that society. Then I am amazed to find that anybody can stand up in the twentieth century and advocate that women, particulary married women, belong exclusively to the kitchen, to the rank of hoers of mealielands - in fact to the position of subservience in the society in which they live. Obviously, Women's Lib has missed him altogether, and people begin to wonder whether or not 344

Mr M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I prefer to address myself in Xhosa in order that the people will understand me. In civilized society when we reach a situation of this nature suitable people are chosen to contribute on different subjects . We notice that in the Cape Town parliament if matters pertaining to education are to be discussed, members who are expert in that subject are chosen to address the House, and then there are experts in agriculture and so on who make a contribution in that particular debate. I sat here listening to people taking part in this debate who are ignorant of the subject. Even if a man was trained as a professional teacher it might happen that he has no interest in that particular subject. It is also very painful to find that a person in Sub A is admonished not to copy and yet a man who reaches maturity copies what other people are doing. It is remarkable to find that what is asked for in this motion is already contained in the Government's plans and it was also mentioned in the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. I would like to challenge the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in regard to a remark he made while addressing the House. For his information, is he aware that there is not a single high school in the Transkei which is not provided with a second-grade clerk? I shall now address myself to section (d) of the motion. The reason why I say these members are copying is because on page 3 of the policy speech of the Minister there is this statement: "Under the Bureau of Xhosa Language and Culture 80 schools which are offering literacy classes were established and a further 80 applications for the establishment of such schools have been received." I am under the impression that some of the hon. members, when returning to their constituencies, want to point out at the schools which have already been established or those which will be established and tell them that they are responsible. The last section deals with the employment of married women on a permanent basis. People who are well travelled know that married women in any country are employed. Even in the Transkei they are employed. They are in employment now. What is confusing is that such a statement should emanate from the hon, the Leader of the Opposition who is a legal practitioner.

we do realise that the hand that rocks the baby rules the world. And if the mover of this motion considers financial gain because his wife or somebody else's wife will be teaching permanently, then what of it? Most homes cannot be maintained on the wages or the salary of the breadwinner, and many things have to be supplemented with the earnings of the better half, and many marriages have floundered or been broken up altogether because of an inadequacy of funds to maintain the family. Therefore even for economic considerations in relation to the family the idea of a permanent employment of married women is justified . Then I must say that married women will bring stability to the personnel or the staff of a school. The married woman is teaching in her locality permanently, and there are no possibilities of transfer to another locality. CHIEF J. NTOLA: And if the husband doesn't agree? Mr GUZANA: If the husband would not like his wife to be employed permanently, who can put his nose into the domestic affairs of a family? Let me point out that whilst the unmarried lady holds a teaching post, inevitably, consequential upon her single state, she must resign when she gets married. Mr H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman, on a point of order I would like to know whether we are discussing the amended motion or the original motion , CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition is supporting the motion. Please continue. Mr GUZANA: A married woman, on the other hand, does not have this risk attached to her. Secondly, the present trend is for single lady teachers to use the teaching profession as a halfway house to nursing. Only the other day, in January, a lady teacher gave 24 hours' notice to leave a school in order to take up training at a hospital. Some of you may raise the question again as to what happens when a married woman is in the family-way. This is no problem that faces the married woman alone, as your experience and information tells you that this is a problem that faces the single woman also, and the pregnancy of a married woman is more honourable than that of an unmarried woman , so that even from the moral aspect the married woman has an edge over the unmarried woman. People are never congratulated until they have completed the work that they are doing. I can imagine a runner doing a mile race being congratulated as he starts off at the beginning of the race! Therefore we need not spend our breath fanning this Government and peppering it with perfume at a very early stage in the development of the Transkei. This side of the House feels that it should urge this somewhat drowsy Government into a state of wakefulness to the urgency of providing educational facilities for the people of the Transkei. To have to congratulate the Government for its extensive programme, for the improvement of education ― that is as if to say we have got to the moon before we have left the earth and we must congratulate ourselves on the programme to get to the moon. This side of the House will congratulate the Government when the programme has been implemented and produces results, and it is our privilege as an Opposition to commend the Government ---- it is not for the Government to commend itself. I get the impression it is getting somewhat bigheaded . (Interjections) . I do believe that if the Government, to put it in the words of the hon. member, is finishing us we shall be providing for you material which is probably going to invigorate and rejuvenate you, because at the present moment the Government looks like flat dough which requires a bit of yeast. (Laughter). Thank you, Mr Chairman.

The reason why married women are not given permanent employment is because before employment is taken up a contract must be signed. A married woman, if we know anything about law, is unable to enter into a contract by herself. Going on now to sub-section (b), I taught in Johannesburg for eight years and in the Transvaal married women do not hold teaching posts. The factories pay better wages so that these girls want to start work on Monday and on Friday they will get their wages. Athough the married women hold teaching posts they are not on a permanent basis, but on a temporary basis. I pointed out that if a person is not versed in a particular subject he must not address himself on that subject. Here we are speaking of subsidizing student teachers. I do not think they are aware that in places like Cicira students who pass in the first, second and third grades don't pay a cent. The Government pays. Those are the beginnings, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, and no teacher will teach now without a matriculation certificate. For example, the junior secondary students (those who have passed Std. 7) will not go and teach. Stds. 8 to 10 are the equivalent of matric and those are the children who will be trained as teachers. I will pass on to a further point. Mention has been

345

As there appears to be an acute shortage of teachers it behoves the Government to employ married women on a permanent basis. Some people before they get married are physically weak and as a result they feel bound to marry a woman because she is a professional teacher. (Laughter) . As a result, this frail man will have someone to support his family. Some men may be very extravagant in spending their earnings. We find some difficulty, as school buildings have to be erected for the children as well as hostels. We find some of the schools in the administrative areas have no hostel accommodation . Mr H. PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I don't know whether this is a mistake on the part of the Whips, and whether this hon. member is now consuming some other political food. CHAIRMAN : Please continue. Mr KUTU: As a result of the lack of accommodation you find three or four students occupying a house without any supervision from an adult. When they receive money from their parents they use this money extravagantly because there is no guardian to look after them. If we could have these proposed clerks looking after the finances of these children then the money would be put to proper use. I must appeal to you once more, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr KUTU: Mr Chairman, I must inform you that these people are just like dogs. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Please withdraw that. Mr KUTU: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. The hon. Chief Jozana calls me a bitch. CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please withdraw that remark. CHIEF P. JOZANA: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. Mr KUTU: We are Xhosas and I for one am a full-

made of the Government offering financial assistance to students who wish to go to Fort Hare. I admit I have three children who have been assisted by the Government to go and take a SATD course. Coming to the last portion of the motion, namely, the erection of further buildings, the schools which were subsidized to the tune of R1 900 per classroom will now be used for junior secondary schools. The secondary schools which are now in existence and which were erected by the Government will now be used as senior secondary schools, and those were built purely with Government funds. Nothing was demanded from the people. I am not aware that there can be anybody who is doubtful about the progress embarked upon by the Transkeian Government. That is why I am standing here, to support the amendment to the effect that the House must praise the Government for the achievements they have accomplished. It is the amendment I am speaking about, and not the motion. Mr. Chairman , I commend the members of the Opposition to read the policy speech by the hon. Minister when they go home so that they will not distort the facts to the people. Mr G. G. KUTU : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion by the hon. member for Libode. However, I feel displeasure in having to speak after the last hon. member on this motion. (Interjections). I appeal to you, Mr Chairman, CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Someone is about to be ordered out. Mr KUTU: Mr Chairman, it was decided in this Chamber that educational matters must be taken above party politics. Mr Chairman, the speaker who has just sat down stood up to support the amendment and here I show him the picture of schoolchildren who are demolishing a school building. (Interjections) . These are the children whose food was eaten by the last speaker. Mr M. E. DEKEDA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, what has that to do with the debate? The hon. member must withdraw that. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members. I request the hon. members please not to be personal when they argue or speak in this House. The principle is wide enough without attacking individuals. Mr DEKEDA: I ask that the hon. member must withdraw what he was saying. CHAIRMAN: What is this to be withdrawn? GOVT. MEMBERS : He knows. CHAIRMAN: Please inform me. A MEMBER : He referred to schoolchildren who were demolishing a school where the last speaker taught. CHAIRMAN: Please continue. (Laughter).

blooded Tembu. A woman is entitled to go elsewhere and find a blanket. If she does not obtain that blanket she returns home. (Laughter) . CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr KUTU : I discovered that the Government is destitute. They are so poor that they have not even got money to build schools. (Laughter). It is better to return to your old dilapidated house, rather than to go and occupy another dilapidated house for the first time. (General disorder). CHAIRMAN: Order, hon. members. Mr KUTU: Mr Chairman, I shall sit down because the House is too noisy. Mr W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the last speaker has summed up everything in connexion with the attitude to this debate today. The comic element contained in his speech is found throughout all the discussions since this morning. This suggests that no-one, either for the motion or the amendment, has been serious in their discussions, especially the speeches which came from the other side. It is quite clear there are as many different aims for this comic element both on this side and the other side, which means that everyone has the same aim. It being the end of the session it appears that most of them would like to go home and say at least he has said something just before going home. A few of them have personal aims and ideas about this thing and they are taking an unfair advantage of their followers because of the literary attainment of their position which they are able to exploit in order to mislead their followers. It has been stated over and over again that the policy of the hon. the Minister of Education has contained all these points and because most of the members across the floor did not avail themselves at the time of the

Mr KUTU: Mr Chairman, when we discuss education it must be clear that we are discussing the future of our generation. The backbone of any nation is education. There can be no government which can be praised without producing first the fruits of education. The motion by the hon. member needs no amendment. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Mr KUTU: I appeal to you, Mr Chairman, the hon. members there are barking at me. The Government can rightly be praised if it has performed something to build up the nation, but if nothing tangible has been done by the Government it must be told that it has done nothing. This motion is a dire necessity for the people. As that hon. member has moved an amendment it simply means that he is causing confusion and at the same time that the Government is not sincere in its dealings. All these items listed by the mover of the motion, Mr Singata, are very necessary and important.

346

after a time they introduce the very things which were asked for by us.

opportunity of reading the speech (or perhaps they were not able to read it) they follow like parrots without really knowing what is being said. As a result, those who read it have managed to twist it in most beautiful and eloquent language which has been taken by the House as meaning something, but when all the fluff and chaff has been removed from such speeches they have been left threadbare. For instance, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said that if you cut an orange in pieces you still remain with one orange. On the face of it this appears to be true, but the existing position is this (and this is already existing) - that the 80- plus

CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, stick to the motion. Mr NKOSIYANE : We have observed that accommodation in the schools is lacking and that is why we have brought the motion to this House. As far as staffing of the schools is concerned it is lamentable. Even now I can tell you of many schools in my area which we know are without a full complement. That is why we request the Government to send students to training schools so that our children will have sufficient teachers. As I stand talking here, most of our children have left the teaching profession to look for work elsewhere because our teachers are badly paid. The teachers in the Ciskei are better paid than ours. Some have resigned to become insurance agents because the salaries of the teachers are so meagre. That is why we issue a request to the Government that they should employ married women permanently. You should realise it is the married women who can teach properly, and they are in the majority today in our schools. (Interjections). If you visit any school you will find that they have no unmarried teachers because the young girls have deserted these schools for nursing and other professions. Some have joined the XDC and others have gone to Johannesburg because they get good salaries there. Married women cannot leave their places because they have families. They cannot leave the teaching profession because they have children and they are teaching in the schools where they are also teaching their own children.

secondary schools will be, as soon as the new structure is operative, anything up to 900 schools, which means day scholars will have their post-primary education brought to them . It means that on the departmental plan 900 schools will come up to meet the demand. It has been said here before that if people will say the correct thing to the correct people at the correct place but at the wrong time, then it comes to nothing, because here we are and our Education Department which has only been ten years in existence is expected to achieve all the idealistic propositions of the Opposition overnight. It is for this reason we make an emphasis on this comic play of the Opposition on such an important subject. The Transkeian Government has had a heritage of this situation politically and they are not to be blamed for it, and according to the words of the last speaker these other members on the opposite side should not have played party-political differences up. We have to be very sympathetic with this delicate situation which we meet. One is really astonished to see people on the other side stand up one after the other to say there are no clerks at these schools . To say the least about that, it detracts a lot from their integrity and honour, and for that reason when there are no commendations coming from the opposite side we are in order to stand up and say this Government should be commended for all it is doing at the moment. I would urge the Opposition members to refer themselves to the policy speech once more and this chaffing will cease. Finally, Mr Chairman , I say I stand up to second the amendment as tabled.

We want to inform you, hon, members of the Government side, you obstinate members, (Laughter) don't you realise that the backbone of the nation is education? Are you from Nyasaland? (Laughter). Education originated in this part of the country. Countries as far away as Nyasaland have just now started getting education . When those countries obtained their freedom it became necessary for them to import educated people from this part of the continent. That is why we implore you to realise it is necessary to employ married women in permanent positions. We don't suggest that unmarried ladies should not be employed, but whenever a vacancy occurs it must be filled by a married woman who can be taken on permanently. Married women can no longer join the teaching profession. They should remain in the schools to teach the children. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

Mr J. M. DUMALISILE : May I ask the hon, member a question? I would like to know if it was the policy speech from the Minister of Education that came first or the motion, because the motion has been standing on the order paper from when we began. Mr MBANGA: To reasonable people, Mr Chairman, with your permission, this is immaterial because a reasonable man will see whether it is time to withdraw the motion or accept the amendment if he is a gentleman, especially as the subject is non-political. Mr. Chairman, I am ready for another question from the opposite benches. (Interjections) . CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Next speaker. Mr P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion by the hon, member for Engcobo. Hon members on this side have belaboured this motion, trying to instruct the Government members who do not want to take heed. We on this side are elected by the people and we move among the people and therefore in bringing the motion to the House we do not say the Government has done nothing, but we want it to go further to improve the situation. The Government cannot do anything unless it is goaded, because they like to sit down and do nothing until they are goaded into doing something by the Opposition. They have refused to perform many of the duties which were originated by us and then

Mr NKOSIYANE : Married women will not attend night concerts because their duty is to teach the children. We don't mean to say that the vacancies in the schools will all be filled by married women. What we mean to point out is that these unmarried girls do not stay because they go out to improve their educational qualifications. Some of them are matriculated and they desire to join the hospital service where there are better chances of promotion. If you look at our schools you will find a deplorable position because the children have no teachers to teach :hem. The girls are not taking up employment in the teaching profession. Please note that we have now established adult schools. Who is now going to teach in those schools? That is why we request you to please come to reason. Don't be obstinate and turn your back on what you realise is the essence of the matter. With those words, I wish to tell you that you stubborn people have long been told and you don't seem to understand. Your generation has no ears to hear. (Laughter). You are similar to Lot's wife who was told not to look 347

back and she looked back. You want to turn the Transkei into Sodom. (Laughter). CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr NKOSIYANE: We want this Transkei to flourish . Where do you think these doctors come from? They are the result of education. CHAIRMAN: The next speaker will be the last before the mover of the motion replies. CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am going to speak in support of the amendment. Let me first refer to the remarks of the hon, member for Mqanduli, who told this House, amongst other things, that the young girls desert the teaching profession and go to work in Johannesburg, in the hospitals and elsewhere. He suggests that married women who have families should be employed and that they should be paid well because he says these young girls desert the teaching profession because of the low salaries. The hon. members will have to make their own deductions and find out whether there is any substance in the allegation that the young girls desert because of the low pay and that married women, who have greater responsibilities than the young girls, should be employed. The hon. members opposite are making a desperate plea that married women should be employed. At the same time they are very busy sending their children to school for education with the intention that when they finish their education they must come home and work to support their families. If we employ married women and put them into our schools, where will these young girls find vacancies for themselves? This motion is not clear because it proposes that the Government should perform what it is already doing, instead of elucidating how the Government should perform its duties. We don't know what they mean because these people are already employed . It is impossible to comply with the suggestion that these young girls should not fill the positions which they are trained to fill. I don't see the possibility of married women being employed. It is necessary for married women to reapply at the end of every year. It is for that reason we feel the Government should be commended for what it is doing. We doubt the mentality of the mover of this motion. Adult education is already in operation and there are a number of schools which have been established. The motion is therefore not clear. What we should say is that the mover of the motion is merely requesting what is already being done. He should have informed us in his motion what he really desires because the number of these schools is increasing every year. He says they must be increased . What does he mean by that?

wish to point out that no parliament can continue enacting and re-enacting laws every year just because there are members who are hazy in their minds. We are requested to see that clerks are appointed in all the schools and these clerks are already there. I would like the inspectorate to inspect the brains of the mover of this motion to see whether his mind is in order. Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, it was not long ago when the speaker on the floor muttered that the integrity of the mover is questionable. That is a direct attack on the mover. In the premises I would that the speaker or the floor should withdraw. ( Interjections).

CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Hon. members, it is a different matter to attack an individual than to attack the mentality or integriy of an individual. Will the hon. member please continue. CHIEF MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman, I stand up now feeling very fresh . It is an old habit of some people to interfere. Those clerks are already employed. Those who need clerks in their schools go and request the department to appoint these clerks. I will advise the mover and tell him that the people of the Transkei know exactly what they want. It is not necessary for him to come to this House to educate the people. We need not educate people who know what they want before we come to this House. In as much as the mover of the motion has suggested that the clerks must be employed, we on this side of the House feel that the Government must be praised because it is already employing these clerks. The erection of schools, primary and secondary, is the direct responsibility of the people in the administrative areas who must approach the Government and ask for the erection of those schools. I am afraid, because this is going to be broadcast in the news tonight, that the members are asking for what is already there, and they are wasting the time of the House. I want the world to know that the hon. member for Engcobo is unstable and there is no truth in him. CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, I asked this House to desist from making personal attacks on members of this House. Would the hon. member please withdraw that remark. CHIEF MATANZIMA: I shall do as I am told by the Chairman. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : That is not a withdrawal. He must withdraw. CHIEF MATANZIMA : If I have to address this House so that people who cannot understand should hear, I therefore withdraw. In supporting this motion we on this side are quite right to commend the Government for what it has done. As I studied the motion I became very doubtful because we do approach the Education Department for the same things that appear in that motion and they are always complied with. I don't understand, because the Government builds schools and other premises and the people don't appreciate all that because they have had no hand in it by way of contributing towards it financially. In this House we must speak constructively of things and give ideas and not go round and round talking on Saturdays. The Government puts up a school and some people burn it down .

In the same vein this side of the House doubts the intentions of the mover of the motion. It is desirable that the electorate must first find out whether these men they send to parliament are really suitable to represent their interests. When the hon. members go home they should understand that it is not the business of this House to suggest that schools should be erected here and there. It is the duty of the administrative areas to visit the department and make representations for he erection of schools in their various areas. Reasonable motions have been delayed by this unnecessary motion because the people who have introduced it should have visited the Education Department. I will request hon. members of the Opposition not to interfere with me when I address the House. I don't know why they sit dumb and contribute nothing to the debates of the House.

Mr L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I am very thankful to this House for having listened to me when I moved this motion on behalf of the hon. member for Libode who is physically indisposed, more particularly the Chair for having craved me its indulgence. If this House, perhaps, as I moved this motion on behalf of the said hon. member, heard

Adult schools have long been established and the mover of the motion is apparently unaware of this. I

348

me well ab initio, Mr Chairman, I delved into the fact that educational matters are matters that are beyond party politics . It surprised me that, in fact, in a motion of this nature there should be an amendment. The amendment was vague. It is bad in procedure, it discloses no amendment at all. It is only if when we deal with educational matters that one must have in one's mind the fact that education must be balanced by wisdom, whence wisdom will be advanced by education. We must all of us here, hon. members, especially clected members who have to go out to their electorate and tell that what has been happening here, what motions were passed, what motions were not passed, what motions were not discussed we must let the truth be our watchword and wisdom our guard. First and foremost, Mr Chairman, I will deal with the first speaker ― that is, the mover of the amendment. I think he confused this House a bit, Mr Chairman, and for a generator (that is in motor mechanics) → for a generator to perform its function it must be primed initially. You must give it a kick and then it will go. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr MGUDLWA: I am sure the mover of the amendment thought of mending. Mending is not amending. Those things are two different things altogether. They are as different from each other as chalk is from cheese. (Laughter) The amendment reads thus : (Read amendment) (Interjections) I am going to deal with all his contentions. "This House is applying brakes." The newlycreated member of this House said that. Mr M. P. LUDIDI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon. member for Engcobo misquotes me when he says I said this side of the House is applying brakes . I did not say so. I said "this side of the House, far from the intention of applying brakes to the development of the Transkei · That is what I said. He must listen. Mr MGUDLWA: Any reasonable man can draw an inference from what he says. In fact, I did not say we are applying brakes but I said he infers we are applying brakes. (Interjections) From the very onset the hon. member said "the best speech ever delivered" . He was referring to the very speech I made when I moved this motion on behalf of the hon . Mr Singata. Mr LUDIDI : And so what? Mr MGUDLWA: He talks about clerks grade 1 and grade 2. The motion is specific in that clerks must be appointed to handle financial matters in order to relieve the principal teacher of the burden of this work. He spoke of the Libode and Engcobo members as wearing blinkers. That is an unfounded contention. I repeatthat is an unfounded contention. This motion is from this side of the House and from this side of the House wholly. Mr T. E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who is your leader? Mr MGUDLWA: I will come also to the JSTC and PTC, where the hon. member said there are bursaries fully subsidized by the Government, and he never substantiated his submission with any statistics thereto. Member after member on the benches across told this House about the fact that several schools will be increased. (Interjections) . I will appeal to you, Mr Chairman, please, in connexion with that hon. member for Cofimvaba who has just recently arrived . CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

a right to speak. Coming to the remarks made by the hon. member for Nqamakwe, he stated that anybody who has to speak on a subject must be well conversant with that subject. Here in this House we are discussing matters in connexion with education. When you look at this side of the House you will find that we have been educated and in fact we are educated. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Wind up. Mr MGUDLWA : He went on to say all this was included in the policy speech of the Minister of Education and the hon. member from Butterworth also spoke in such strain. The unities of space, time and action they appear not to be aware of and yet they profess to have been one-time teachers. The speech by the hon. member for Nqamakwe was full of inaccuracies, explaining to this House about the new approach in the education syllabus. That has nothing to do with the motion, in fact, because he did not come to the subject matter of the motion. The hon. member for Butterworth spoke of a comic element. Alas, I thought he was going to say something in this House. His speech resulted in a damp squib. He says the policy speech on Education contains all these things. We are not interested in what is said . We are interested in what is done and seen to be done. CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member wind up. Mr MGUDLWA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I wind up now. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Mr MGUDLWA: I will come to the last speaker on that side ― that is the hon, chief from Cofimvaba, He dealt at length with the appointment of married women on a permanent basis and he was averse to that. The overall picture, Mr Chairman, in this motion is that, in fact, here as we are sitting here we represent the people of the Transkei. Mr Chairman, an hon¸ member cannot be addressed by his name by another member sitting down . For a member to say to me " Hey, Lamwell!" (Laughter) That is the hon. member for Cofimvaba. CHAIRMAN : Order. Mr MGUDLWA : We are here representing the people and as such we are the custodians of their interests. As such we have got to see to it that these matters are deliberated in this very House. GOVT. MEMBERS: Sit down. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Will the hon. member wind up .

Mr MGUDLWA : You know, Mr Chairman, remarks like that are allowed because that is the hon. member for Cofimvaba. There is no need for heckling of that nature. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, the hon, member for Engcobo, Mr L. L. Mgudlwa, moved on behalf of Mr. W. C. Singata, and there is an amendment by the hon. member for Matatiele, Mr M. P. Ludidi. I shall first put the amendment.

Amendment put and accepted. Motion as amended put and carried. The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Friday, 10th May, 1974. FRIDAY, 10th MAY, 1974 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

Mr MGUDLWA: He is hurling insults at people now and again. We are here to handle the affairs of men and as such we have got to be serious when we deal with matters of education. The hon. member who moved the amendment has spoken just because he has

ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon. members, it did not come to my notice until last night when the doctor from Tsolo telephoned me and told me that 349

characteristic feature of the debates and such freedom was enjoyed with gentility and responsibility and distinctive signs of manhood on the part of the members. There were points of difference, but many more of a consensus of opinion, which is a natural phenomenon and characteristic of all democratic parliaments. It is hoped that this spirit of manhood and brotherhood will be maintained after the attainment of independence when the political parties shall dissolve themselves and new parties be formed, for a stable and efficient administration can be achieved only when matters of state are dealt with soberly and in a friendly spirit.

the hon. Chief G. M. Mabandla has been ill and that is why he was not able to attend the sessions of this Assembly. I move that his absence be condoned by the House. Mr K. M. GUZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: I wish to announce again that immediately after the adjournment all the members will have to march down to the Jubilee Hall to attend the function in honour of the Commissioner- General. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I move that the bill be read for the third time. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second . Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.

May I assure this House that should I continue to lead the Transkei as Prime Minister after independence has been attained, opposition parties will not only be welcome but they will enjoy Government recognition, for it is inconceivable to imagine a successful democratic government without critical observations made by people who love their country and would like to make the best out of the principles they hold with a view to superseding those principles held by the ruling party. The people should have a right, a democratic right, to decide on the party that should rule in the best interests of the country.

ADJOURNMENT OF ASSEMBLY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon, members, before moving the prorogation of the Legislative Assembly I crave your indulgence to allow me to make certain observations on the termination of this session. It is traditional at the end of the sessions of this Assembly for the leaders of the two major parties to make brief impressions on the members' participation in the debates and the success or otherwise of Government control in administration. It is now a full ten years since the Transkeian Government and the Legislative Assembly were inaugurated . The objective was to render unqualified service to a people who have for many years been denied all the basic human rights enjoyed by other racial groups in South Africa and elsewhere. We can be proud of our achievement when we take stock of the imminent changes around us. The Transkeian towns which are now occupied by Transkeian citizens ; the industrial complexes in Butterworth, Umtata and Lusikisiki ; thousands of Transkeians employed in the administrative offices, the industries, the municipal boards, the Government departments; human development generally - the number of schools, both of high and primary stages built by the Government; the marked improvement in agricultural development; the wide afforestation of our mountain ranges are substantial and practical features which are remarked by all who live in or visit the Transkei. The numerous laws passed by the Legislative Assembly leave no other impression than that the Transkei has attained the stage where full sovereign powers should be conferred on it. This year we have quickly passed through all the stages more bills than we have ever done in the past .

Mr Chairman and hon. members, I wish to compliment our Chairmen during both the ordinary and committee stages for the manner in which they have conducted and controlled our debates. They have always displayed an impartial attitude and observed all constitutional procedures. Their dignity was superb. The spirit of the House of any parliament depends on the manner in which the Speaker conducts the proceedings. May I take this opportunity, Mr Chairman, to thank all the officers of this House without mentioning their names for the selfless application to duty and for the service they have rendered to the members during the proceedings. This applies to all the Secretaries, the printers, the translators, the Sergeant-at-Arms, the stenographer, the interpreters, the messengers and all those who participated in making the Assembly the success it has been. Lastly, but not least, Mr Chairman, without the inspiration of the Press and Radio Bantu the results would probably not have been what they have been. I wish the hon. members who will go and submit themselves to the voters at the next election in an independent Transkei every success. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Mr K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, may I begin with a word of thank-you to all officials who have been mentioned by the hon. the Chief Minister for the dedicated work which they have done to make this session the success that it was. Although this is customary , I want to assure them that the thanks comes from the bottom of our hearts. The Chairmen who have taken over the reins have discharged their duty as best they could in the circumstances, regard being had to the fact that they had no previous experience in these offices. At times they have not had our co-operation; on occasions we have taken the bit between our teeth; and on occasions we have bent the rules and somewhat detracted from official procedure a characteristic which I believe should be stopped from developing into a habit but by and large we have had a very successful session. Those on this side of the House have at times wondered whether a majority does not sometimes become dictatorial. Then the session has been associated with quite a number of important events, some happy, others sad. One cannot forget the loss to this House caused by the death of Paramount Chief Victor Poto. That has been a shadow over this House, and the Opposition,

Mr Chairman, a recess committee has been appointed to draft recommendations to the Republican Government on the constitution of an independent Transkei, such proposals to be embodied in a bill to be tabled before the House of Assembly in Cape Town. This is a breakthrough and a very important stage in our constitutional development. We hope the negotiations between this committee and the Republican Government will not break down because of unilateral decisions on the part of the latter. May I take this opportunity to compliment members of both sides of the House for the manner in which they have conducted themselves in the deliberations on all contentious issues tabled for discussion. They have showed signs of maturity and purposeful handling in the affairs of the people they represent. Their objectivity and serious dedication to duty were clearly depicted at all stages of debate on vital and controversial issues. Freedom of speech and expression was the

350

ment in the right direction. If indeed we mean what we say when we speak of democratic rights, then we must enshrine these rights in our constitutions . We must guard our right to free speech; we must guard our right to free association; we must never isolate ourselves and think that a threat to one racial group is not a threat to the other racial group. If we feel that we have to enjoy together the privilege of peace, then we must stand together in the hardships of war. If the house of your neighbour is on fire you cannot rest in your own house lest the fire should spread to our own house. And so the hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that if and when independence comes political parties will be welcome, and in making this observation he has thrown the shadow of death on the present existing parties. Probably it is the inevitable consequence of the attainment of independence that any party basing its policy on race discrimination is doomed to die, (Laughter) and that those parties which have stood to accommodate all racial groups should thrive in the new state. But having taken advantage of the opportunities of the present we look forward to the promises of the future, and if we are going to guarantee that future for all races we shall have to watch our utterances and that whilst constitutional development may be going our way this is no justification for venomous talk, for I have come to the conclusion (and this has been my conviction for all time) that rights and privileges are indivisible as between races and if you seek to divide these up you destroy them altogether. May I wish the members of this House a happy recess period. May I point out to them that they have a responsibility to the people who elected them to this House and that that responsibility is greater now than ever before, and added to it is a responsibility even to those who have not elected you to this House, for the silent and unspeaking citizens of the Transkei are your rseponsibility as well. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members, I now move that this House be prorogued until further notice. CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, I now request the Leader of the Opposition to lead us in the singing of the National Anthems. The Assembly adjourned after the singing of "Nkosi Sikelel i-Afrika" and "Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Hesu".

in respect to that man, has left this seat vacant throughout this session to pay its respects to a great man. Then again, we have had to say goodbye to the hon. the Commissioner-General and Mrs. Abraham . This is bringing to an end a period of dedicated service by this political diplomat who has been with us right from the beginning up to now. Then we were moved to great ecstasy of pleasure when the hon, the Chief Minister received the degree of Doctor of Laws (Honoris Causa) from the University of Fort Hare and in this connexion we have achieved first, in that no other homeland (I am subject to correction) has a doctor as its chief minister. Then, fourthly, we have had to face up to the question of independence squarely. I shall be forgiven if I have to state here that the Opposition party has stood squarely for a one-and-undivided South Africa, but independence seems to be almost an inexorable consequence of the policy of separate development and our view was, in order to give the people the right to determine their future, to refer the matter to the electorate. It is my view, and I hope it is the view of every member of this House, that whilst a majority has decided this issue they shall seek the views of the people so that they will speak wisely to this constitutional change. If and when independence comes, then we hope to have a society for all men and for all persons; that we shall grow out of the type of thinking which is conditioned to the racial classification of an individual; that we shall realise that it is a fact that all races in South Africa are interdependent; that if we have a future that is assured to work for, if we have a hope of remaining intact, if we hope to perpetuate what we know as a South Africa for all races, we shall grow more and more tolerant to one another. And just as the left hand cannot keep itself clean by itself and requires the right hand to help it keep clean, we shall continue to wash one another's hands in this bowl of industrial and constitutional development, Political independence may well satisfy the theorists of government, but the realities of independence are based on strong economic structures that give a guarantee of future development. That is probably one of the main issues which shall face us in the future, as to whether or not we can feed our sheep, and this is where, probably more than in any other sphere, we should accept the fact that we will continue to be interdependent. There must be development, and develop-

351

Tuesday,

RULE 147(b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

26th

1974

March,

at

9.30

a.m.

PRESENT. As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof:-

Messrs . W.S. Mbanga (Chairman), R. Madikizela, D.J. Ndleleni, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Rev. G.T. Vika. Mr. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor in attendance accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl.

On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing (b)

Committee deliberated and adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until Wednesday, 27 March, 1974 at 9.30 a.m.

The

the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure . When the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee.

Wednesday, 27th March 1974 (at 9.30 a.m.) PRESENT.

APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEE. The following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts:-

Messrs. W.S. Mbanga (Chairman) . R. Madikizela, D.J. Ndleleni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Rev. G.T. Vika . Mr. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor in

Mr. W.S. Mbanga - Chairman Mr. D.J. Ndleleni, Rev. G.T. Vika, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Mr. R. Madikizela.

attendance accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl. The Committee 10.30 a.m. 9.30 a.m.

MATTERS

and

adjourned

at

until Thursday, 28 March, 1974 at

REFERRED TO THE COMMITTEE. SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC COUNTS : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkei for the financial year 1972/73 tabled. Referred to the Committee in terms of Rule 147 (b).

having

considered

Messrs. W.S.

Mbanga

(Chairman) ,

R. Madikizela, D.J. Ndleneli , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, Rev. G.T. Vika.

REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS, 1974.

Committee

AC-

Thursday, 28th March 1974 (at 9.30 a.m.) Present:

Your

deliberated

Messrs . W.Z. Lusu, Secretary ofthe Legislative Assembly, M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, D.C.T. van Dyk, Assis tant Chief Auditor (accompanied by

and

examined the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government

G.C. van Zyl), R.P. Wronsley, Deputy Secretary for Finance (accompanied by G. Oosthuizen and J. de la Harpe) in attendance .

and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1972-73, referred to it, and having taken evidence , which it submits herewith, begs to report that it has no observations to make

1 - CHIEF MINISTER AND FINANCE (PAGE 6) - Paragraph 17 (1) EX GRATIA PAYMENTS. VOTE

upon them. W.S. Mbanga. Chairman .

Chairman - Mr. Wronsley, would you enlighten 1. the committee further on the matter of ex gratia payments? (Mr. Wronsley) - Yes, Mr. Chairman,

Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, UMTATA.

the first payment is one of R5.50 and the reasons are as follows:- It is compensation to Mr. W.K. Sobinta , Forester, grade 1 , for the loss of a fairly new shirt which he used to extinguish a fire which developed on a government vehicle during the course of duty.

PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE . PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACOUNTS, appointed in terms of Rule 147(b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee consisting of Mr. W.S. Mbanga (Chairman), Mr. R. Madikizela, Mr. D.J. Ndleleni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamas and Rev. G.T. Vika.

The vehicle was not equipped with a fire extinguisher and he used his shirt to put out this fire. The Government considered it only fair that he should be compensated for the loss of this shirt. The second item is an amount of R150. A function was held for 250 delegates and guests attending a 352

meeting of the Bantu Library Association of South Africa in Umtata. Although it is a private organiza-

committee why vacancies could not be

tion it was deemed appropriate to show official goodwill towards the association which was holding its congress in a Bantu homeland for the first time, and for the first time in the Transkei. It was felt it

for assistance having been received than anticipated ; and (b) amounts previously granted not being fully utilised . Could you enlighten the committee further on these matters? (3) Subhead K- Saving due to

would add to the prestige of the occasion and demonstrate the Transkeian Government's goodwill

fewer applications for bursaries having been received than anticipated . (Mr. Wronsley) - Mr. Chairman, as far as vacant posts are concerned, the situation was

towards cultural affairs. It must also be pointed out that government officials, especially those connected with the library and with the cultural affairs of the Department of Education, took a leading role in the

filled ?

(2) Subhead G- Saving due to (a) fewer applications

that we provided for a certain staff expansion in our taxation branch but the seconded official we needed to run the section and train the staff - the taxation expert - was not forthcoming from the

organization of this meeting and we has several precedents for assisting a body which was holding a congress here in Umtata under the auspices of the Government. This sum of R150 was contributed towards the cost of the function at the close of the congress. Item 3 is an amount of R50 – reimbursement of costs of materials - that is, frame, canvas,

Republic . Despite repeated requests we failed to obtain the services of this expert, so the subordinate posts we have created in that section could not be filled. It would have been pointless to fill those posts if the man was not there to train the people. Although it falls outside the scope of the question, the Republic did, late last year, provide the services

oil-paints, etc., for the Chief Minister's portrait . The portrait was done by the wife of one of the seconded officers in the Transkei - a Mrs. Gerrand and she

of a taxation expert and the posts have now been filled, but it was no good appointing the juniors earlier if the man to teach them was not there . (2)

donated the picture to the Transkei Government. It was deemed appropriate that we should reimburse her the costs of the frame and canvas. Item 4 is an amount of R20-50 and it is the payment of reason-

The next question related to a rather large excess of R25 370,46. Mr. de la Harpe is head of the branch dealing with this, but he has given me an explanation and if you require any further details he is here to

able out- of-pocket expense incurred by Mr. M. Kweshube of Durban on accommodation in Umtata

supply them. The explanation is that in terms of the general regulations for lower authorities, estimates

and in travelling to and from Umtata. The Chief Minister required him to attend urgently a meeting held in the Chief Minister's office to sort our

of the authorities for the ensuing financial year have to be submitted to this branch not later than the end of August each year and all grants approved in the estimates are recorded in a commitments register.

certain problems Mr. Kweshube was having with the urban representative at the time . There was personal animosity between these two gentlemen and it was causing a lot of trouble in Durban . There was cor-

In addition, the estimated cost of supplies such as safes, stationery, etc. , requisitioned for by the lower authorities is entered in the commitments register. Provision is also made in the commitments for

respondence and they were admonished in writing to settle their differences, but in the end it was found that the only way was to get them down here and meet them over the Chief Minister's desk . (Mr. de

contingencies. Savings on this Subhead have been occasioned mainly by the lower authorities having not utilized in full the grants paid to them in the previous financial year, and thus the grants payable to them were reduced by the unspent portions of

If you want more details, I can give la Harpe) them to you. This Mr. Kweshube was a strong personality. He was in Durban and was generally accepted as the leader of the Pondos in Durban, but

previous grants. An amount of R18 928 could for

then Mr. Mdingi was appointed as this Government's representative and he actually held a more important post than Mr. Kweshube . Mr. Kweshube resented the fact that he had to occupy a minor position and he organized a campaign against Mr. Mdingi. All efforts

this reason not be paid out. Orders for the supply of safes and stationery to the amount of R949

to solve this problem from Umtata failed, so the Chief Minister decided to get the two persons here and talk to them, and this is what we did . Mr.

yet been received . Another contributory factor to this state of affairs is that magistrate in one district failed to debit the subhead concerned with an amount

Kweshube was a private person so we could not pay him S & T, but it was felt he should be refunded his expenses . From latest reports, all is settled .

of R3 500 in respect of a clinic grant authorized to be paid out during the financial year. Mr. Chairman, that is the composition of the R25 000 which was not utilized . If there is anything you would like to

were placed during the financial year, and the necessary funds reserved therefor, but could not be paid because the relative invoices and goods had not

ask on that, Mr. de la Harpe is here . ( Rev. Vika) - I understand there is an amount of R3 500 used

Paragraph 17 (2) - Appropriation Account .

2.

Chairman · In the explanations of variation

but not debited, and another R900 outstanding

between expenditure and vote , the following remarks appear:- ( 1 ) Subhead A - Saving due to vacancies and staff fluctuations. Could you kindly inform the

because of supplies. This means we are left with about R21 000 which has just not been used . (Mr. de la Harpe) - Mr. Chairman , may I explain to you

353

how our whole system works. Tribal authorities have to submit their estimates at the end of August every

apparently. Normally they do it by way of taxing themselves and then they get the money together and we give them R3 500 as a matter of policy, provided

year, then they ask for grants from this department to provide certain services mainly roads, clinics,

the Department of Health has approved of this specific clinic . You can realise then that if we only get four or five applications we immediately have a saving of R17 000 to R20 000 only on this one portion of the money. That is what we refer to when we said that fewer applications were received .

shows, crop competitions . We approve what they ask within certain limits - that is, provided that the grants are properly motivated - but that is in August, and we approve of the estimates which will come into operation the next year. Then, in order to see to it that tribal authorities use the funds and to obviate an accumulation of grants in any specific tribal authority which will then be tied up, we have introduced a

(Mr. Ndleleni) Isn't the system a bit tough for the tribal authorities to raise an amount of R1 500 before they can qualify for the grant ? (Mr. de la Harpe) - The pliocy of the department has always been to assist those who are prepared to assist themselves . The normal way of subsidizing matters such as this is the rand for rand basis. In the case of

system whereby these tribal authorities, when they apply for the payment of the grant (that is, after it has been approved and in the new financial year) are paid out the full grant only if the previous grant has been expended fully . In a number of cases you find that we might have given a tribal authority R1 000 for roads, but they have only used R500 or R700. Then we pay them only the grant we promised , less

clinics the Government is prepared to provide R2 for every R1 which I think is a fair method of subsidization. On the question of difficulty, if you have seen the accounts of the tribal authorities who have taxed themselves ( I think the hon. Chief D.D.P.

the unspent amount of the previous year. That is all with a view to efficient administration of the funds.

Ndamase will be able to confirm what I have said) they can quite easily tax themselves for a fairly small amount. They can collect an amount of R1 500 for their own benefit. I do not know whether

This saving we have here is the saving we have because the tribal authorities could not spend the money we gave them in the previous year. I think the committee will agree with me that it would be highly irrespon-

you agree with the principle, but I think the principle of contributing to their own welfare is a healthy

sible to go on paying out grants and letting them accumulate in the tribal authorities' accounts while

one . (Mr. Ndleleni) - Seeing there is such a need for clinics in the country and people are really suffering, could the Government not change the system for a

money is needed elsewhere . We cannot really commit ourselves for more than our vote allows. If we have committed a full amount we cannot commit any-

while to begin with ? Say once they commit themselves to a special lecy which is going to be spread

thing further if we find we have savings, and this R18 000 was probably not the whole amount not spent. We usually know before the end of the financial year what we have left over, and if we have

over five years or so, and once they have made that commitment and it is approved by the department , couldn't the Government go ahead with assisting them with this grant, at least for a number of clinics so as to have something going on in the meantime ? (Mr. de la Harpe) · We don't normally require a

money over for special grants we make them then. They would have been considerably more if we had to reflect all the savings we have made on that fund. (Chief D.D.P. Ndamase) - I would like more explana-

certificate from the magistrate that there is R1 500 in the bank for this purpose . We promulgate the levies here and we know when the levy is imposed

tion about stationery so far as the tribal authorities are concerned. Do they get this free of charge from

and we approve it, and even if they assure us that a levy will come into operation before the next financial year we make that grant. I can assure you we are

the magistrate or by way of grant from head office? Sometimes we buy stationery out of our funds. (Mr. de la Harpe) - The policy of the department is to provide stationery free of charge to the authorities through the magistrate's office . That is your normal

really very sympathetic towards the tribal authorities. I want to make it clear that we are trying to get them to do things, but we don't get the response . The

channel of communication. (Rev. Vika) - It was said that fewer applications for assistance had been received. Does this mean these authorities do not

problem is not on the Government side. The money is left over every year, but there is apparently a lack of interest on the part of the tribal authorities to do things for the people . These are local matters and the Government cannot provide the services , so if the

apply? (Mr. de la Harpe) - That is the other aspect of the matter. we make provision in terms of a undertaking we gave to the Department of Health to assist tribal authorities to erect a least ten clinics every

chief and his councillors do not provide the services it remains undone . I would be very pleased to see at the end of the year that this whole vote had been spent

year. The government subsidy on a clinic is R3 500, which amounts to R35 000 for ten clinics we have given that undertaking Since we

properly to the benefit of the people. That is what we would like, but we don't get the necessary response . (Mr. Ndleleni) · I am quite happy about Mr. de la

have never had applications for then clinics. The requirements are that a tribal authority should pay for the rest of the costs of the clinic. That is normally R1 500, and they just cannot get the money

Harpe's answer, especially that once there is that arrangement of the levy the department can go

354

ahead and help . I am sure many of the tribal authorities are not aware of that . (Chief Ndamase) - Mr. Chairman, paragraph H(b) says that fewer applications for rations were received than anticipated .

own experience that a man with 30 points on the basis I have outlined to you has a very slim chance of succeeding at university level. It is sad but true that if a man has such low symbols for his matric - lower

(Mr. Wronsley) - That arrangement has been scrapped at the request of this committee last year. May I just add something to what Mr. de la Harpe said ? Mr. de la Harpe has answered this fully, but you know it is a hardy annual and every year the same question

than 30 points - we cannot accept him. That is really scraping the barrel, and even on that relaxed basis we

is asked and we give the same answer. If I may refer

sad in a developing homeland that we do not allocate each year more and more for post-matric studies , but practical experience has shown it is pointless raising this amount each year because each year we pay back an unspent balance . It is unfortunately one of the facts oflife that the money is there for the asking, but even with extremely easy conditions we still are not able to spend the money fully each year. Again, it is not a case of people not being aware of it, because each year the Secretary for Education distributes to all high schools the details of the Public Service bursary schemes . Each year the Public Service Commission publishes the details and I don't know what more they can do to induce officers to study. If the man succeeds in passing his examinations and

you to the 1973 Hansard, pages 358/9 , substantially the same ground was covered . As Mr. de la Harpe has said, it is a matter for the tribal authorities and unless they pull their socks up during the year you will have to ask the same question again next year. (Mr. Ndleleni) - If the committee members can see why these tribal authorities are lagging behind, what can we do in order to remedy this and get the tribal authorities to work properly ? (Mr. Wronsley) - I don't know if we are going beyond the scope of the committee's functions here . We can explain how it happened but I do not think we can, in this committee, go into how it can be improved . We can just note that there is room for improvement and the branch here can take note . (Chief Ndamase) - Is the department not considering increasing the R3 500 on each grant due to the rise in price of materials, etc. ? (Mr. de la Harpe) - I think the hon . chief will recall that some time back we asked all tribal authorities whether they would be agreeable to transferring control of their clinics to the Department of Health, and that is still being dealt with . I expect that the Department of the Chief Minister will not be involved next year again in giving grants to tribal authorities' clinics. I cannot say, because it has not been decided yet what the position will be , but I expect there will be a shift of authority. (Mr. Wronsley) With regard to sub-head K- fewer applications for bursaries received than was anticipated · the unspent balance was R440-50 . I have asked the Secretary of the Public Service Commission to provide me with some information and he says that bursaries for Blacks are considered according to a system where points are awarded for work performance , matriculation results and post-matriculation qualifications . The maximum points that can be so awarded is 100 , and every applicant is considered in relation to his total score the major part of which is based on his matric symbols. If I recall correctly, if the symbol is A he gets 10 points , B is 8, and so on . He also gets bonus points if he has a good conduct record and his

still don't get enough applications for bursaries. In this coming year an amount of R5 500 is again being asked for. It was the same last year, and this is rather

he qualifies, he then immediately gets three notches in salary and promotion very often is accelerated . I don't want to mention names, but we have with us at the moment here a man who has benefited on this basis . Unfortunately, however, not everybody puts their shoulders to the wheel . Another reason why the amount is not expended fully each year is that if an unsuccessful student has to repeat his year he has to finance himself. We cannot anticipate how many are going to fail each year. We have to estimate for the full amount of the bursaries awarded , but each year a number disappoint us and the money we budgeted for, if they have to repeat a year, is unspent. (Chairman) - While I am not quite conversant with the points system, I think the committee will be interested to know of a specific case I have of a boy who passed his matric and had a B for maths. He applied to headquarters for a bursary but came back empty-handed . Fort Hare grabbed this boy and said . he was just the type they require , because with that sort of distinction he could go far. I have not all the facts about him, but I know the boy has been admitted to Fort Hare at the expense of friends , because the parents are helpless finacially in this regard . An application has again been submitted to the Commission here and we are interested to see what is

work is good. The ideal situation would be if only

going to be done . As a result of the irregularities in the results this year this student was one who did

candidates who obtain 48 points and higher that is, first-class matriculants or candidates with the proven abilities of first-class matriculants - were

not know whether he had passed or not until the middle of February and when his results did eventually come out it was found he was one of the best

granted bursaries, but the Public Service Commission

at Fort Hare . (Mr. Wronsley) - I do not know the particulars of that case either, Mr. Chairman . I am at the same disadvantage as you are , but if a man

understands full well that to set such high standards would result in no bursary applications at all being received. They have already relaxed the qualifying mårk to 30 points and to relax it any further would be a waste of public moneys . I can speak from my

wants to study a particular line which has no particular application to the Public Service he may fail to get a bursary. You don't know what he is study-

355

ing ?

(Chairman) · No (Mr. Wronsley) - You see,

agency agreements and the rest that goes towards industrialization . It goes without saying that you cannot have all that industrial or commercial activity if you haven't a satisfactory infrastructure. Roads communications, water, power all has to be available before an industrialist can be persuaded to put up a

suppose a man wants to study Divinity. He may have excellent symbols but he cannot acquire a bursary because it has no application to the Civil Service. If that is not the case, and he is studying in the sciences and not in the arts, then he is a rare

factory. While the XDC has set up the industires and business here the Transkei Government, in common with the other homelands, has undertaken to provide

chap indeed , and I am surprised he failed to get a bursary. There may be other factors which we are not conversant with. However, if the parents failed to submit their application correctly, I suggest they

the infrastructure . In the two growth points of the Transkei, Butterworth and Umtata, there were many

reapply. (Rev. Vika) - Does this scheme not apply to people already working in the Service ? (Mr.

gaps in the infrastructure. In some ways Butterworth was better off because it had Escom power, but it

Wronsley) - Yes, and outside . Bursaries for part-time studies are not awarded during a probationary period . He must work at least for a year before becoming

was felt there was need for long-term planning of the two growth points. For that purpose what was called the "Transkei Regional Planning Committee" was

eligible . That is not being nasty , but until you get to know a chap a little better you may be throwing good money after bad , so his probationary appointment must have been confirmed . Having worked for a year his chances of getting a bursary are good , especially for post-matric studies at university . We

set up. This committee consisted of consulting engineers, the Townships Board , this department, the Railways, municipalities - any body that had a direct interest in it and the committee finally brought out a report after investigation by a firm of Consulting Engineers of East London . The cost of this report by the consultants was at that stage to be R5 000 , and since the Transkeian Government had accepted the responsibility of providing the infrastructure for the

have a number of clerks who have passed senior certificate but without matric exemption, so they cannot be admitted to universities. Some , after the age of 25, may obtain conditional exemption from UNISA, so it does apply sometimes, but we also award full-time bursaries to clerks, for instance, who

Transkei, it also accepted responsibility for payment of the R5.000 which was the cost of the preparation of this report. It was decided that this money should properly form a charge to the Transkei Development and Reserve Fund Fund from which, incidentally, money can only be drawn after estimates have been submitted to the Cabinet . That was done and the

have been working for a few years and decide they want to go into some other line - become a surveyor, for example. We have one of those who has gone to Fort Hare to study surveying, which is right outside the work he had been doing . As far as outsiders are concerned , if a chap comes from school and he has

but there they have to bind themselves contractually

R5 000 was duly paid to the consultants. Although falling outside the scope of the question I may add that Escom power will be joining us in Umtata within the next few months which has made it possible for a

to the state. By and large they are required to serve the state for a period equivalent to that for which the studies have been subsidized , failing which he has to repay the money spent on his studies. If they wish

much more detailed plan to be drawn up for Umtata and surrounding areas. I think next year further amounts will be indluded which will be explained at the time . It is all in the interests of industrial

to study arts they must study at night.

development. (Chief Ndamase ) - I wonder whether the department is not thinking of any growth point towards East Griqualand ? Umtata , I think , is central in the Transkei and Butterworth is towards the

not yet worked for us and he wants to study sciences, particulary, we send him even straight from school ,

Miscellaneous Funds and Accounts ; Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund Paragraph 23(4), Page 20.

3.

South .What bout the nother areas ? (Mr. Wronsley) --The question is not really for this department to answer. The designation of a particular place as a growth point is for the Decentralization Board of the

(Chairman) - This relates to expenditure in

connection with planning of growth points. Would you kindly enlighten the committee further on this

Republic in consultation with the XDC , but if a homeland itself wishes to propose a new growth

matter ? (Mr. Wronsley) - With pleasure , Mr. Chairman . With the attempt on the part of the Republican Government to decentralize industry , particularly

point a procedure has been laid down as to how to make the necessary representations to the Board. Guidelines have been laid down, but it is a matter of

with a view to the industrialization of the under-

high government policy here . If they decide they

developed Bantu homelands, it was necessary for the Decentralization Board in the Republic to designate

want to have a particular area in the northern region designated a growth point, or if the Legislative Assembly members wanted to make such a suggestion, they could do it and it would be referred to the

certain towns, villages or sometimes just a spot in the veld as a growth point . These places were decided upon by the economists as being suitable for reasons related to accessibility, road transport, rail points,

Transkei Planning Committee through the Chief Minister's Department . We know what the procedure is. (Chairman) · That brings us to the end of this

etc. Once having been disignated , the XDC (in the Transkei, in this case ) channels funds , know-how,

356

at the best, unsystematic and half-hearted checking. To make matters worse , in some of the cases the charges preferred against the accused were either wrongly laid or so inelegantly drafted that the

morning's activities, and we thank the officials very much for their attandance here.

Tuesday, 2nd April 1974 ( at 9 a.m.) Messrs . W. S. Present: Mbanga

(Chairman)

prospects of a successful prosecution were hopeless from the start. 4. The Department is not unaware of the difficulties being experienced by its senior officials as a result of the inexperience, and , in some instances, the irresponsibility of their staff. It cannot ,

R. Madikizela, Rev. G.T. Vika , Mr. D.J. Ndleleni . Messrs. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by Messrs . G. C. van Zyl and J. D. Bam), J. A. Burger, Secretary for Justice, W.Z. Lusu, Secretary of the Legislative Assembly, and

however, permit or connive at any relaxation or neglect of financial control and must therefore insist that urgent and effective steps be taken to remedy the position. Heads of offices are consequently requested to give special and immediate attention to the matter. In terms of the financial regulations the ultimate responsibility is theirs , and it will avail them nothing if, in the final result , they are unable to prove that they themselves have done everything within their power to ensure full and adequate compliance with all the applicable instructions . To do so they must of necessity exercise internal control personally by also undertaking monthly checking duties themselves, thereby making sure that the checking carried

M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, in attendance. VOTE 2 - DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (Page 7) : Paragraph 18 ( 1 ) THEFTS AND IRREGULARITIES INVOLVING GOVERNMENT MONEYS AND PROPERTY.

4.

Chairman - Mr. Burger, it was observed that it was again necessary for the Controller and AuditorGeneral to refer to the absence of internal checking and control in connection with these irregularities .

out by their supervisory officers is regular and systematic and , most important of all , correct , complete and purposeful. 4. The Department has hesitated in the past to order the recovery from supervisory officers of losses suffered by the Govern-

Can you inform the committee what steps were taken to rectify this state of affairs and whether these particular cases have been finalized ? (Mr. Burger) Mr. Chairman, you will remember that last year we had a very long discussion about internal checking

ment as a result of the malpractices of officials under their control. However, unless there is an

and proper control at our district offices . At the time

improvement in the position it may have to reconsider its attitude in the matter. That , indeed , would be a sad day." Mr. Chairman , in addition to his I have endeavoured to discuss the matter personally with magistrates, and I have visited , about 50 to 60 per cent of our district offices. I have not

I promised to take the matter up personally with each and every magistrate , and also to send out circular instructions. That I did , Mr. Chairman . I have here a copy of a circular which I sent out on 22nd October 1973. It reads as follows :- "Rising incidence of theft in the Transkeian Government

yet had the opportunity of visiting all offices personally. I want to say, however, that our problem remains the same as last year. With a younger and ,

Service. 1. In his report on the appropriation accounts of the Transkeian Government for the financial year 1971/72 the Controller and Auditor-General has expressed concern at the apparent lack of internal control at certain offices and at the appreciable increase in the number of audit queries raised during

a less experienced staff and with our service expanding, I think that is going to remain a problem for some time to come. However, Mr. Chairman, I

that year in comparison with previous years . 2. In the opinion of this office there is justification for such concern, particularly when regard is had to the

do think that we have achieved a lot by discussing this matter with magistrates, by taking it up with them personally, by talking to various members of the staff and also by the circular which we have sent out , a copy of which has been handed in. Then there is particular reference to item (b) which refers to the

fact that, in the twenty-six districts of the Transkei , there were no less than eleven cases of theft and other irregularities involving a total amount of R3 221. The position, to say the least, is regrettable . What is all the more disappointing is the fact that these moneys were misappropriated notwithstanding the existence of comprehensive control measures specially designed to prevent such occurrences. One can only conclude that these measures, which have

cash shortage at a government hostel. The question is whether the case has been finalized . There was a criminal case pending and it was finalized during last week. The clerk concerned was found guilty and was sentenced to a term of imprisonment - ten months it was · and he was ordered to refund the

proved adequate in the past are not being applied at all or else that they are being applied so perfunctorily as to render them worthless. 3. This conclusion is

amount for which he was found guilty. I am not sure of the exact amount now, but it was something like R2 500. I want to point out that although there

confirmed by the evidence recorded in a number of prosecutions arising from the abovementioned

was gross negligence in this case, I do not think the blame rests on the shoulders of the Department of Justice , for the reason that thefts were committed

cases which reveals that the thefts became possible only as a result of a complete absence of checking or,

at a government hostel, at the Mvenyane hostel in

357

the district of Matatiele , some 50 miles from the office of the magistrate , who is the receiver of revenue with the authorities at the hostel, a sub-

I will not deny that there exists an element of dis-

receiver. In terms of regulations it is the duty of the magistrate to compare not daily , not weekly, but once in three months the receipts issued with bank statements, to make sure that money collected has

(Mr. Burger) - That is internal checking and control. (Chairman) - Yes, to curtail any chances of letting these fellows handle loose moneys. I have known it, as I say, that once they think you cannot check and

been accounted for and banked ; The responsibility for internal checking and control rests on the shoulders of the Department of Education and I think, in particular in this case, on the shoulders

they have a balance over... (Mr. Burger) - I agree with you. In this particular case it was recorded by the

of the school principal . I have referred the matter to the Department of Education and I have also for-

honesty among our young people, but I think our first duty is to see that there is thorough checking.

magistrate that this man was perhaps more negligent than anything else, because when the police went to his office they discovered money all over - cash in a drawer, postal orders in one of the shelves, cash again

warded copies to the Controller and Auditor-General. I did so and I only could do so within the last eight or

in a canvas bag, at various places in his office they they found money. Whether he did not know what to do with it or how to handle the money I don't know,

ten days since the case has been disposed of. I think, Mr. Chairman, that answers your question. I do not know whether there are any other points you want

but he was a 1st grade clerk and certainly no beginner. He has handled money before. (Chairman) - And this

me to explain or to reply to . (Rev. Vika) - The question I should like to put is what Mr. Burger has alleged that some of these thefts are because of the inexpe-

reverend gentleman should have mentioned in connection with dishonesty is consumption of liquor at

man is well-educated , I happen to know. What the

rience of the clerks. Would you say that theft is contributed to by inexperience? Is a new man capable of stealing just because he is new? (Mr. Burger) - We can lose money through inexperience , that is so. You know

wrong hours. (Mr. van Dyk) - Dishonesty can be cut out completely if you have a man on the spot to check daily. (Mr. Burger) - So we come back to control again. We discussed this matter at length last year. Our problem is that even our control officials do not

it takes several years to train a man to handle financial matters, to know all the regulations, the codes and so on, to know why a thing has to be done and

have the experience they should have , and we find it impossible to appoint a checking officer to check on checking officers and to do that every day. Even 1 our checking officers are young men today, and

how it has to be done . We are simply forced to put men on counter work, on responsible work, who have not had sufficient experience . They are put

inexperienced. That goes right to the highest official ; it goes for the magistrates themselves in some cases young men with less experience than would have been the case fifteen years ago with a magistrate. But we are aware of that, Mr. Chairman, and we are

through a crash course , told they have to do this, that and the other, and they have to do it . That is so. You are always better off at any office by having an experenced clerk at your counter than an inexperienced one . (Rev. Vika) - Mr. Chairman, I am not

doing our best. We do get assistance from departmental inspectors , the Controller and AuditorGeneral, the Department of Finance . It is just one of the battles that we have to fight and we can only

yet satisfied . My problem is that it seems this practice is going to continue for some time of having new and inexperienced men on the counter. Now, I think

hope and trust that in the end we will be successful. stealing money is due to dishonesty more than inexperience , and if a man is experienced and steals

But as a department we are well aware of this . (Rev. Vika) - In my district of Tsolo I have always found that the magistrate does checking every morning from 8 o'clock till about 8.30. Is this what is taking

money he is the one who thinks he can steal money and get away with it because he knows the methods . But why is it that our men are so dishonest ? (Mr. Burger) That I do not know. I do admit that even an experienced man, if he wants to steal , will do so. (Chairman ) · I do not know if I could say from my own experience of inexperience versus

place in all offices, or is this what is lacking ? (Mr. Bruger) - It is not always the magistrate who checks. In some offices there are principal-grade clerks who are appointed as checking officers , like Umtata, which is a big office , and , Lusikisiki - if the magistrate in these offices were to check the finan-

dishonesty. In most cases I think these young gentlemen have become dishonest simply because of inex-

cial registers every morning he would not have time to do anything else. A magistrate has to attend to a great number of matters out in the district as well as in his office, and he has not always the opport-

perience, as Mr. Burger has put it . If these young fellows cannot be checked and shown how to balance, and they find some loose money somewhere , it is easy for that money to go anywhere but into the office safe. This has been my practical experience and because of lack of opportunities of checking the fellows think they are correct because no-one has pointed out from day to day that their balances are incorrect. From that moment dishonesty sets in and eventually large sums of money are misappropriated .

unity. We have been fortunate in having at some of the smaller offices a magistrate with an assistant, who are able to undertake daily checks between the two of them. (Rev. Vika) - Could we ask Mr. Burger about items (d) and (e) before going on to the next item ? In regard to (d) the matter was still being ivestigated at the time of writing. (Mr. Burger) - Mr.

358

Chairman, I have not ascertained from the police whether they are still investigating or whether they

and J.T. Lunika), J.L.K. Heystek, Secretary for Education , W.Z. Lusu, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, and M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, in attendance .

are prosecuting or what is being done . This is a very difficult case and it has been difficult from the very start. This money disappeared from a bank deposit that was made at Ngqeleni or Mqanduli . The deposit was made up, sealed in the bag, taken to the post office and submitted through postal channels to Volkskas Bank in Umtata. When it got to the

VOTE 3 - EDUCATION (Page 8)

PARAGRAPH 19( 1 ) - CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS THE COMPILATION OF A XHOSA/ENGLISH/ AFRIKAAN DICTIONARY.

bank the money was missing and there is doubt, and there has been a grave doubt as to whether that money disappeared whilst the bag was still in the office of the magistrate or whilst it was in the hands of the postal officials at either Ngqeleni or Mqanduli . It was most difficult to determine and the police were

11. (Chairman - Mr. Heystek, it is observed that a total of R46 440 has thus far been contributed towards the compilation of a Xhosa/English/Afrikaans dictionary. Would you please enlighten the committee on the progress that has been made and whether the

investigating . In regard to (e) - R162 , being a shortage for which a clerk was convicted of theft, the full amount was recovered , Mr. Chairman . (Chairman) - I noticed under (d) that after Mr. Burger's reply there

dictionary will be completed within the extended period of two years or whether any further funds will be needed for this programme? (Mr. Heystek) -

was no talking in this meeting . Whilst we were silent you could feel everyone was thinking whether this is good enough, that this money was lost in transit . It is for this committee to decide whether it was

Yes, Mr. Chairman, in short the progress on this project has not been as rapid as was originally anticipated . Problems experienced in obtaining and retaining the services of suitable staff has been the root cause of the problem. The latest progress report for the period ending 15th April 1973 indicates that the

necessary to send small amounts like this to the bank at the time and whether this is a suitable method of transmission . This silence was very eloquent, as far as I was concerned .

translation of words commencing with the letter "S" and a portion of "T" had been done, whilst editing on preceding letters was in progress . The latest available estimates indicate that the work will only be

APPROPRIATION ACCOUNT (Paragraph 18 (3) 5. (Chairman) - Mr. Burger, in the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and vote

completed in 1978. This , of course, means that further funds will be required , to which end Treasury

the following remarks appear: "Sub-heads C and D - Savings due to economy measures." Would you kindly enlighten the committee on these economy

has been approached in so far as it concerns the contribution by the Transkei. I may add that up to date an amount of R52 977 has already been spent, so this actually is less than the R10 000 a year agreed

measures ? (Mr. Burger) - During the course of the year, Mr. Chairman, it was obvious that we were going to overspend under item F, and we appealed to

upon . The Department has now approached the Treasury with a suggestion that the grant be made on a year to year basis instead of deciding on so much

magistrates to try to cut down expenses in connection with postal, telegraph and telephone matters , as well as printing, advertisements , publications and so on . I may add that as far as publications are concerned,

for so many years, and then await developments . The director of the dictionary wrote us recently to say that at the moment, since Mr. Burns Ncamashe entered politics they have been left stranded and have now been able to obtain the services of Mr.

savings were partly due to the fact that some of our orders could not be carried out before the end of the financial year, but we did appeal to magistrates to try to cut down on certain items, to see that no

Ndungane, and Mr. X. Time (Assistant Inspector of Bantu Education) has been elected to the committee ,

unnecessary telephone calls are made and so on , and we are satisfied it had the desired effect, to some

and it is now hoped that better progress will be made than in the past . (Rev. Vika) - May I ask the Secretary if this period of two years falls away completely.

extent at least . We have got to do that regularly. Whenever I get to these offices I make a point of enquiring from the switchboard clerk whether he

(Mr. Heystek) - I am afraid so, because it will not be possible for them to complete the project within two years. They expect to be another three or four

keeps a register of private calls , and trunk calls , and how these matters are controlled . When deemed

years, up to 1978. (Rev. Vika) - Just as a matter of interest, Mr. Heystek, do you think that in the long run this will be an economic project for the Transkei? I am asking because it has been felt that this

necessary we send out a circular to magistrates asking for stricter control.

Wednesday, 10th Present: Messrs.

April 1974 (at W. S. Mbanga

9.30 a.m.) (Chairman),

is going to be such a large volume that only a few will be able to acquire it . (Mr. Heystek) - Even so it

R. Madikizela, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, Rev. G. T. Vika.

is necessary for the survival of any language, and the work will never be able to stop because as the language develops new words will have to included.

Messrs. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by G.C. van Zyl

359

(Chairman) · Were you thinking of it for use in school, etc.? (Mr. Heystek) - No, that is out of the question. This is purely a reference book. We shall need a smaller one for general purposes.

Heystek) - I would point out that the excess under this subhead in so far as it relates to the new system of marking the Std VI examination papers actually amounted to R10 048,81 . Against this amount should be offset the saving of R5 961,34 under subhead L, which amount was available for the pay-

PARAGRAPH 19(2) - EXPENSES OF COMMISSION OF ENQUIRY .

ment of markers' fees prior to it being decided to abolish the payment of such fees in preference to the new system. The real excess would then amount to

12. Chairman) · Mr. Heystek, would you please on the expenditure referred to? (Mr. Heystek) - Mr. Chairman, the figure of R207 represents the calculated salaries of the three members of the commission , viz. Messrs . Kakana, Ntusi and

R4 087,47. I would say the excess , or conversely the new system of marking, is justified in that under the

Nkungu, in respect of the time spent on travelling on commission work during the period under review. The figure of R45 represents the mileage charges levied for the vehicle used for this purpose . I would

particular subject, thus promoting a uniform standard

elaborate

new system the marking of papers is carried out under the direct control of the examiner for each

of marking. This was not previously possible where each of the eleven inspection circuits marked all papers of the various schools in their particular circuit. Under these circumstances uniform standards

point out that the three members of the commission are officials of my department and to calculate that portion of their salaries in respect of time spent on

of marking are impossible. I may point out that the number of circuits has now been increased to 24. Previously this was an examination conducted on the basis of a circuit and every inspector was responsible

commission work during office hours would only be pure guesswork . The report of the commission was tabled in the Legislative Assembly on 15th March 1974. To a certain extent I was rather disappointed

for the marking. He had his own panel of markers for all subjects. This differed from circuit to circuit and you will appreciate that you can nenver maintain the same standard. It was therefore decided to do this

that in this session nothing has come forward by way of motions, etc., but I believe this will be discussed next year. I approached the Chief Minister and the Minister of Education and they said they would like members to scrutinize and study this report and

under the supervision of the chief examiner and he has only one team. We bring the markers into Umtata where, under the supervision of the chief examiner,

come back next year with recommendations . The commission was appointed to investigate the low standard of education in the Transkei in the primary

the papers are marked . Then all the marks are sent to the Department and by using the computer we have now one norm for all candidates , whereas before you

as well as post-primary schools and, at the same time, the dropout that we have in our schools. To my mind this is an excellent piece of work and I think for years to come this will be used as a reference book

had different people to supervise and control . I think this is a good thing because in the very near future we will have our school-leaving examination at the Std VII level and I can predict that it will not be long before we shall abolish the JC examination . (Mr. Madikizela) - You said that under the circumstances mentioned , uniform standards of marking are im-

and we will go back to it from time to time . The material content in this could serve the Department and the Transkei as a whole for a very long time . I think this was rather a cheap work, considering what

possible . Do you mean were impossible? (Mr. Heystek) - Yes, they were impossible under the old system. (Chairman) I am sure the departure from the old system will be very welcome to the critics. By critics I mean those who

we get here . (Chairman) - Yes, one should have commented on that , the three gentlemen going right round the Transkei, and this nominal amount is something to commend . (Mr. Heystek) - Yes, they met all nine regional authorities, inspectors of schools , visited many schools and so on.

are constructive in their criticism. Personally, I have wondered when the time would have come, if the new structure had not been introduced , when principals of schools would have been placed in such a position as to be directly responsible for the promotion of pupils up to Std VI . There was a time when even Sub A candidates had to be personally

PARAGRAPH 19(3) - EXCESS PROVISION IN ULTIMATE EXPENDITURE . RELATION ΤΟ 13. Chairman) - In the explanation of the causes of variation between vote and expenditure the following comment appears : " Subhead B - Excess due to (a) the introduction of a new system of marking Std VI examination papers which do not require the payment of marking fees but that of subsistence allowance for which no provision had been made." Could you inform the committee whether as the result of the new system of marking Std VI papers the apparent excess expenditure was justified? (Mr.

360

and individually examined by an inspector, then the principal was entrusted with this job up to Std II and then up to Std IV, but we found that principals were not considered sufficiently competent to select pupils for Std VI or Form I. Could you say from your experience why that was that we should have progressed a good way to have our teachers placing themselves in a competitive position , competitive enough for them to select pupils for secondary education without the centralizing of examinations at this

great expense. Our teachers are so qualified that one would have expected at least they would be in a position to know which child would be good enough in three years to pass JC. (Mr. Heystek) - This is an

Interior, W.Z. Lusu, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly and M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, in attendance.

educational matter, of course, not financial . It will take us a long time once we start this. To have an an examination or not to have an examination is a

VOTE 4 ― DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, Paragraph 20 (2) SUBSIDIZATION OF (Page 9) SHELTERED EMPLOYMENT PROJECT.

question that has been discussed by educationists for years. Personally, I believe a system of examination is unavoidable. It is an evil without which you cannot

6.

(Chairman) - Mr. Niksch, it is observed that an

amount of R20 811 as compared with R12 472 the previous yearwas paid to the Efata Welsynsvereniging. Can you please inform the committee of the

do, but I know that especially my inspectors in the Transkei believe that an examination is a "must", because it is the only way to foster children to learning. I do not agree. An examination is merely a norm of evaluation but because there is no other

reasons for the increased subsidy paid? (Mr. Niksch) Yes, Mr. Chairman . The Efata Weslynsvereniging compiles its annual estimates in accordance with an approved five-year plan. During certain financial years the organization embarks on capital works and

way to measure the knowledge of your student we have to apply it. However, as far as your question is concerned about our principals, you must bear in

other extension projects which naturally increase the amount budgeted for. This accounts for the dif-

mind that with the newcourse syllabi that have been introduced many of our principals are not up to

ference in expenditure between the financial years 1971/72 and 1972/73.

standard. They find it hard to adapt themselves to the new project, especially in subjects like arithmetic or maths, as it is called these days. They find it very hard even to teach the children , let alone evaluate them, so if you have an external examining body it

APPROPRIATION

ACCOUNT

(Paragraph

20(3) .

7. (Chairman) - In the explanation of the causes of cariation between expenditure and vote the

has its advantages , especially for the sake of upholding standards of education . (Chairman) - I should have mentioned that in fact I welcome the new

following remarks appear:- ( 1 ) "Sub-head E - Saving due to fewer admissions of indigent persons to institutions. (2) Sub-head F - Saving due to review of disability grants and the stricter application of the means test by district offices." Could you please elaborate on these paragraphs ? (Mr. Niksch) - Mr.

standard, but before that my surprise was that our staff was not competent enough to select children in the primary school for the secondary school , and the fact that there were so many instances of cheating in the examinations I would have imagined , basing

Chairman, it is extremely difficult to estimate expenditure under this item with any reasonable degree of accuracy, as it is impossible to determine in advance how many additional cases will require

this on my experience, if the local principal were allowed to deal with the promotions directly and the parents knew the principal was directly responsible for the promotion, it would not take more than

assistance during the course of the financial year. Budgeting is therefore based on certain known factors, such as the number of persons already

three years before the parents knew that it was not the system that was wrong. We have seen this before working well where the principal was responsible for

admitted to institutions, and on the anticipated number of new cases for which provision requires to be made. It is this latter unknown factor which

promotions. (Mr. Heystek) - There is another aspect we must bear in mind and that is diversification , because the whole idea of the new-course syllabi is to select students for vocational schools , technical

could bring about a saving or an over-expenditure under the relative item of Sub-head E of the vote.

schools,

schools .

As regards Sub-head F, when it became apparent

(Chairman) - Yes, that is why I say this should have come much earlier. (Chief Ndamase) - Under subhead

that an abnormally high number of applications for old-age pensions were being submitted by district offices for approval, a special review of pensions was called for. This review brought some disturbing facts to

agricultural

schools ,

academic

F, may I know why there was a delay in the opening of Butterworth and Maluti High Schools? (Mr. Heystek) This is actually a matter for the Department of Roads and Works. The Education Department is not to blame for this. It was the erection

light which resulted in the cancellation of a fair number of pensions · thus the savings under Subhead F. The review clearly showed a certain lackadaisical approach in some district offices as regards

of the buildings and they had difficulties with the contractor.

gauging the ages of applicants and determining their

Wednesday, 3rd April 1974 (at 9.30 a.m. ) Present: Messrs. W. S. Mbanga (Chairman), D.J. Ndleleni, Rev. G.T. Vika. Messrs . D.C.T.

financial means. Cases came to light where old-age benefits were recommended for persons who had reached the ripe old age of 35 years, and many applications were submitted in respect of persons

van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by G.C. van Zyl and J.D. Bam) E.F. Niksch , Secretary for the

who are gainfully employed. These special reviews will be called for at regular intervals in future and I will not hesitate to press for legal action being taken

361

trying to save money there should be this large surplus when there are so many people who need this assistance . It was stated last year by the Minister that they have noticed quite a number of young people

against persons who perjure themselves by making false declarations as to their age or their financial situation in order to enrich themselves at the expense of the taxpayer. (Mr. Ndleleni) - Mr. Chairman, I

who benefit. I have discovered that many of these young people get disability grants. Now, how do these disability grants work? If a young woman with a husband working has got chest trouble , is she entitled to a disability grant? Quite a number of young

think we usually have more applications for these disability grants than the department can cope with. Now, where such irregularities are spotted and the grants have to be cancelled , do you not replace them with others on the waiting list so as to avoid this saving? (Mr. Niksch) - I can only say, Mr. Chairman, that all the applications are dealt with . They are not held back. In other words , applications are not withheld because of a large number being received and only a certain number can be passed because of the budget. All applications are dealt with, so it does not affect the situation . (Mr. Ndleleni) - I happen to be a member of a tribal and a regional authority and I know that at least for a year no new applicants were

people are getting these grants and the old people suffer. (Mr. Niksch) - I must say I congratulate the member for asking such an excellent question . The Department is unfortunately completely in the hands of the magistrates as far as disability grants are concerned . Although we do control it at head office , it is difficult to do this from afar, and I am almost certain there are many cases where young people have been granted these disability grants where the husband or the wife is in full employment. The means test should also be applied in these cases. In other words, if

taken for the whole year. I know for a fact that there are many such needy cases which are not entertained The tribal authorities handle these applications and pass them on to the magistrate's office where we are

a man is a millionaire you cannot expect his wife to draw a disability grant because of her chest complaint. Mr. Chairman, I believe you will realise that the Department must work within its budget and that at any given stage, working with a total number

told they have been passed on to Umtata, and they end there . These applications sometimes take over a year. We had a lot of difficulty canvassing among the

of close on 93 000 pensioners at the moment, it is difficult to predict your expenditure over a period of a year. I believe my Minister will once again appeal to the populace to ensure that those who do not

people because that was the cry throughout the district. (Mr. Niksch) - I would not like to express an opinion on that. In some of the magistrates' offices I know pensions are held back for quite an extended period and are then submitted in batches for the Department's attention, and this affects the

qualify for pensions should be pointed out to the authorities so that the necessary steps can be taken to put the matter right. (Chairman) - There is a closely related question - that of needy ex-soldiers. In this case one would like to know how the means

issue of pensions because the section dealing with these applications is relatively small, but I can assure the hon. member that all pensions are dealt with. (Chairman) - I too, have some comment to make in this connection . Recently I have been associated with the activities of these authorities and I am aware of individual cases where the in-

test is applied to decide which are needy or not . One is aware of certain cases where these grants are not paid and should have been paid . How do you decide on needy ex-soldiers? (Mr. Niksch) - There again I can only reiterate that we are in the hands of the

formation from the magistrate's office and recently from the pensions clerk is that some legitimate applicants have not had replies, and the reason is ascribed to headquarters in Umtata. These applications have been submitted more than twelve months

magistrates, and if an applicant feels that he is entitled to a pension, but for some reason or another it has not been granted , he is quite free to approach the Department directly to investigate his case . (Rev. Vika) - Why should our Government take over as far as these ex-soldiers are concerned? In some

before and no reply has been received . It is a common complaint down our way. (Mr. Niksch) I am glad you mention that , because I personally made it my task to check up in the pensions section because of

cases we have been referred to a regional office here in Umtata and in some cases we are told the magis-

complaints received of a large backlog of pension applications in the department. I can only reiterate that all applications have been dealt with. I may add

trate should give the old-age pension . Where do we draw the line? Where does our Government take over? When some person applies for this ex-soldier's

that this does not mean that all applications for pensions have been granted, but they have been dealt with . I mentioned during the session of this commit-

pension he is told to go to the magistrate, and the magistrate will tell him he can only grant an old-age pension, if the applicant is entitled to an old-age pension. My submission is that these ex-soldiers

tee last

year

that the applications for old-age

pensions are out pacing the population growth to be many there seem In other words, more

applications

for

old-age

should be entitled to a pension because of the fact that they served in the war. Now, where does our Government come in? (Mr. Niksch) - I am afraid I cannot reply to that question off-hand . I think that ex-soldiers receive pensions from the South African Government and that should these not suffice, taking into consideration their age they also possibly qualify

pensions than

there should be, and the Department will no doubt be forced in due course to appoint pensions inspectors to follow up all applications for pensions. (Rev. Vika) - My concern, Mr. Chairman, is that in 362

for an old-age pension, but I am on dangerous ground when I say that, because I am not fully conversant with the situation . (Chairman) - Can it be hoped that at some stage such information will be available ?

areas where the magistrate is regarded as part of the adjustment committee, there are properties which have been transferred to Whites in spite of many black applicants for houses there. I do not know if

(Mr. Niksch) - Yes, Mr. Chairman, and I would advise such applicants to approach the Defence authorities

this falls under the same section? (Mr. Niksch) No, the department does not deal with the purchase of adjustment committee properties. This is a matter for the Department of Bantu Administration and

as regards their ex-soldiers ' pension and if they do not get any satisfaction they can always approach

Development, Pretoria. Our budget only provides for

the Department who will take the matter up on their behalf. However, I think your question goes further.

the purchase of land and properties for use by the Government. (Chairman) - And the Bantu Trust does

It seems to refer possibly to the stage when the

not form any part of it? (Mr. Niksch) - No, this applies to school properties, for instance, or land bought for some Transkeian project.

Transkei will be independent and how this will affect these pensions . I take it that when this stage is reached, people who are paid pensions by another government will still be entitled to those pensions. That will certainly apply in the case of the public servants who still belong to the Republican pension fund .

Thursday, 11th April 1974 (at 9 a.m.) W. S. Present: Messrs. Mbanga

APPROPRIATION ACCOUNT – Subhead O.

Messrs. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by G.C. van Zyl and J.T. Lunika) F.C.T. Coetzee , Sec-

8.

(chairman) This relates to savings due to the slow progress in the development of Maluti Township. In view of the previous year's evidence , Mr. Niksch, could you please furnish reasons for the continued slow progress? (Mr. Niksch) · This is unfortunately a hardy annual, Mr. Chairman . The slow progress in the development of Maluti was due to the delays experienced in the provision of a suitable supply of of water for domestic use . An abundant water supply is now available and many erven have been sold , but

retary for Agriculture and Forestry, W.Z. Lusu, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, and M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, in attendance . VOTE 5

still waiting for the approval to arrive . (Mr. Niksch) Once again, Mr. Chairman, I find it difficult to answer the question offhand . As far as I know, all

- AGRICULTURE AND

FORESTRY

(page 10) GOVERNMENT SAWMILL, LOGMILLS AND PRE-` SERVATION PLANT - Paragraph 21 ( 1)

the progress is still very much retarded due to the fact that the owners of erven have thus far not effected any improvements on their land . (Mr. Ndleleni) - Mr. Chairman, I know a number ofpeople are very keen to proceed with the erection of houses on these erven, but unfortunately , as was disclosed on their application forms, they have to put so much down and then wait until their applications have been approved in Umtata. There are a number of people

(Chairman) ,

R. Madikizela, Rev. G.T. Vika and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase .

14.

Chairman) - Mr. Coetzee, could you please

furnish reasons for the decline in profit as compared with the previous year? (Mr. Coetzee) - Mr. Chairman , this is really a very complex matter because , as was stated in the policy speech, the planing mill works in conjunction with the logmills and with the preservation plant , and the method of financial control followed is that all these different projects are combined . The financial results of all the various stages are combined in the final figure for the planing mill. Just to give you an idea of the set-up I can tell

applications for the purchase of erven have been dealt with. It should however be quite obvious that the processing of these applications is time consuming. It is a Lands matter and the erven must be registered in the name of the owner. The fact remains that owners are not effecting improvements . The indications are that they find it difficult to get

you that the logs are taken from the plantation to the logmills and the plantations charge the logmills on a certain laid-down tariff according to the class of the log, etc. The plantation therefore gets a certain amount of income from the sale of the raw logs and the logmills purchase the logs from the plantation . The logmills then saw these logs and the cost of the sawn timber is arrived at by working on the purchase

the necessary capital to build houses, because the houses in Maluti must comply with certain standards . We have asked the magistrate to inform the people

price of the logs plus the operating costs , including labour, etc., at the logmills. The logmills in turn sell the sawn timber to the stackyard at the planing mill

that they can apply to the XDC for loans, but without houses I am afraid a town will not develop. (Chairman) - Under the Appropriation Account , sub- head L, you talk of the purchase of land and improvements, which I correlate with sub-section L on page

where the sawn timber is stacked to dry, and there again the wages of the labour, etc., are added to the

10, where the saving is due to unforeseen delays in purchase negotiations and transfer of properties. I know a situation our way where , in the black-zoned

to the planing mill , where it is finally processed and sawn into structural timber. The planing mill in turn adds the wages of the labour there and all the other

price of the sawn timber supplied from the stackyard

363

costs such as depreciation on machinery and build-

very complex matter and if I had my own way I

ings, operating and administrative costs etc., and the actual timber they sell is costed to include all the additional costs right from the plantation through

would prefer that the logmill had its own profit and loss account - that it should be dealt with as a sepa-

the logmill , stackyard, planing mill, up to the final

rate entity; that the stackyard should be dealt with as a separate entity and the planing mill be dealt with

product that is eventually sold . Now, the plantation obviously cannot show a loss . It only shows a profit .

as a separate entity as far as costing is concerned , but in the system which has been followed for the last

The logmills , as you will see on page 13, do show a profit but they cannot do anything else but show a

number of years everything comes down on the planing mill and it is very difficult, therefore , to identify

profit because the profit they show is the income

exactly where the loss in profitability occurred because the whole thing is considered as a unit. I can mention also that in spite of the increase in wages of

from timber which they sell directly to the consumers. It is therefore the sawn timber at cost price plus a little added to derive a profit . The sawn timber

labourers in the plantation and at the logmills, the production did not increase in the same ratio and therefore , of course , your cost of production of the

is also sold at laid-down tarrifs, but the profit that the logmills show comes from the difference between the cost price of the sawn timber and the selling price at

article produced either in the plantation or the log-

which they sell to the public However, the bulk of the sawn timber from the logmills is supplied to the planing mill and the cost price of the sawn timber at the planing mill is , of course, derived in the manner I have explained . It is the cost of the log plus operating costs, including wages, and that is passed on with the

mill is increased, but the profitability is lowered by the increase in wages if it is not accompanied by a similar increase in productivity. That is one thing that the Minister also mentioned in his policy speech yesterday. If we want to make these government projects profitable then the productivity of the labour should increase on a par with increasing wages,

losses to the planing mill . At the planing mill there are also losses to a certain extent . The sawn timber differs in quality. I have looked it up for 1971-72 and the percentage recovery was much lower than the

otherwise your profitability goes down . (Rev. Vika) I just want to follow up the idea about separating these accounts. I was going to suggest is it not

previous year. It is 82,22% as against 95,74% the previous year. That is due to differences in the quality of

possible for these accounts to be separated? For instance, now there is a lot of guesswork and the

the logs which are again reflected in the sawn timber which the planing mill must process in the end . Now , the planing mill purchases, say, 1 000 cubic metres of sawn timber from the logmill at a fixed price , but in

increase in wages is contributory to the low profit, but it is difficult to pinpoint in what area exactly. Is it not possible to separate these accounts so that we can see in which area it is not profitable - whether in the forest or the sawmill? (Mr. Coetzee) - I can-

the processing stage in the planing mill the recovery varies. It was lower last year and therefore the cost of the final product delivered by the planing mill is

not see any reason why it should not be possible and I will go into the matter. It might mean that we shall have to increase the staff again at various points

much higher, comparatively speaking, due to the losses in quality and the smaller percentage recovery.

- competent staff to do the costing - but it is something that I will definitely go into because I think it is necessary, also in view of the changing conditions ,

The cost price of the processed article sold by the planing mill is therefore much higher. Now, the processed timber sold by the planing mill is also sold

that the people concerned with a specific division such as the plantations , logmills and so on , should be

at fairly fixed prices. The prices are laid down by the Department of Forestry and we always follow the

trained or taught the principle of economics , of costs versus production . (Rev. Vika) - I also heard you mention the increase in rail tariffs. Now, if you are

price structure as laid down by the Republican Department of Forestry, so the profit margin on the products differs from year to year, depending on the selling price and the cost price of the finished article .

selling something is it not possible to increase your charges? Must you , if you are selling, pay for the increase in the rail tariff? (Mr. Coetzee) - This is mostly on incoming cargo. It is not the final timber

That must definitely be one reason, therefore , why the profit of the whole project, including all these various stages which I have mentioned, was lower

product. It is on all the requirements we must get into the Transkei where the difference in rail costs

during 1972/73 . Furthermore, during 1972/73 there plays its rôle .

was a bit of a slump in the timber market . The demand was not as good as it was before and that also

TEA PROJECT - Paragraph 21 (4)

contributed to a certain extent to the lower profit. In addition to that there was, during 1972/73 an

15. Chairman) - Mr. Coetzee, could you kindly inform the committee when this project is expected to be in full production and whether the revenue is expected to increase substantially? (Mr. Coetzee) At the end of 1972/73 , Mr. Chairman , there was a

appreciable increase in rail tariffs, up to 40%, and also an increase in wages (about 15%) and all those costs are , of course , reflected in the final instance in the financial results of the planing mill . Now, I think those are the reasons that I can furnish for the lower

total of 730 ha under planted tea. Of this total 318 ha was in production . During the last financial

profitability of the sawmill . As I have said, this is a 364

made available? (Mr. Coetzee) - We know of more

year another 100 ha was established and during this financial year another 50 ha will be established , to

available land in that vicinity, but unfortunately it is patchy . We have been fortunate in being able to acquire this large area of 880 ha so that we have the

bring the total up to 880 ha. That is, as we see it at this stage, the final total of the area under tea. Now,

whole plantation in one, but if we extend in the

this total area of 880 ha will be in full plucking during 1978/79 but it will only be in full production eight years after that - in other words, in about 1986/87. Then the 880 ha will be in full production.

bite off more than we can chew at this stage . We

I will just mention in passing that the tea bush can grow to a very old age, so it should remain at a high

want first of all to get the established area fully productive on a proper basis before we consider

level of production for many years to come. It is, of course, very difficult to predict what the income

expanding the area under tea. It is a technical project requiring special equipment and staff, and therefore we do not want to overreach our powers at this stage .

future we will have to establish relatively small areas separated from each other. We don't want to

from tea will be . Here again the profitability of the whole project is determined by a number of factors. The selling price of tea is very important, and then, of course, the cost of production is also very important .

COFFEE PROJECT - Paragraph 21 (5)

The wage levels paid to labourers on the project will will be a determining factor which could be offset

Chairman) - Could you please inform the committee when this scheme is expected to be 16.

to a certain extent by the productivity of the labour. Now, theoretically we think that the income during 1973/74 could be R250 000. The next year, 1974/75 it could be R270 000 ; 1975/76 , R400 000 ; 1976/77 ,

fully established and in production? (Mr. Coetzee) Here again we are busy with pioneering work. We hope to have an area of 230 ha under coffee by

R450 000; and 1977/78 , R500 000. That is at the

1976. When we reach that stage we will also stop expanding the project for the time being in order to bring the existing project on a profitable basis . We

stage when it reaches full production . That is calculated on an average price of R1 per kilogram of made tea, but there are all sorts of unpredictable things which we do not know of at this stage , so it is

know what quality of tea we can produce and we have proved that the quality is good, but we don't

difficult to say exactly when this whole project will come on a profitable basis . It certainly has

know what quality of coffee we will be able to produce . We have not produced any coffee so far but we hope to reap the first crop this year and we

tremendous potential but we are still in the development stage and we will experience growth pains, as it were, so we hope it will reach profitability in the

hope also to process the crop if the factory is operational by that time . That is the position . By 1976 we hope to have the area planted and from that year onwards we will start reaping coffee . The

near future . (Mr. Madikizela) - Mr. Coetzee mentioned that the tea plant can remain in production for a very long time. Can you give us any indication of what is a very long time - 20 years , perhaps? (Mr. Coetzee ) -

total area should be in full bearing by 1978/79. (Mr. Madikizela) - Does it remain as long in production as the tea plant? (Mr. Coetzee) Yes, it should. There again I must add that we hope , but we don't know what the effect of the soil and climate

In Kenya, which is renowned as tea-growing country, the tea bushes reach the age of 30 years and more, but then, of course , productivity declines. We do not

will be. I think we are the most southerly coffee and tea producers in the whole world. (Chairman) - Would you say the land suitability in the Transkei favours

know what the position will be here . We are on new ground here and we do not know what the effect of soil and climate will be on the age of the tea bushes or at what age the productivity will decline to such an

more the growth of coffee or tea? (Mr. Coetzee) - It is difficult to say, Mr. Chairman . Both crops have

extent that it will not warrant keeping them any longer. (Mr. Madikizela) - In Kenya what do they do when they have reached full production and the bushes have to be destroyed? Do they replant tea?

more or less the same climatic requirements. The area must be frostfree and almost subtropical, the soil must be right and the average temperature during the year should be suitable , so the only places we know of where coffee and tea could be grown

(Mr. Coetzee) - Yes, but as far as I know it is not economical to plant new tea on old tea-grounds , but

successfully are along the Pondoland coast . If I

this is something we hope to encounter only in 30 years time . (Chief Ndamase) - At what age do they

may just revert to tea , I suppose you know about the other tea project at Majola which we are now

reach full production? (Mr. Coetzee) - At about eight years. (Chairman) - You mentioned an area of about 880 ha to be in production in two or three years' time . What is stopping your Department from increasing this area? (Mr. Coetzee ) - Mainly suitable ground. Tea requires a specific type and

pushing. It is a more marginal area than Magwa but we hope to make a success of it. The tea experts reckon we should be able to make a success out of tea there , but I think coffee is not as hardy as the tea bush, as drought-resistant, as cold-resistant and so on. The area for coffee is therefore limited to

depth of ground and coupled with that there are rainfall , temperature , etc. the climatic conditions (Chairman) · Have you made sufficient surveys in

Port St. John's down to Coffee Bay where the whole thing originated , so it is more limited in area than tea. (Chairman) - You mentioned full production,

the Transkei to see whether any other land can be

365

etc. When this stage is reached will the product be intended for domestic consumption only, or for

must admit that it is extremely difficult for me and for the Department, in fact, to state conclusively whether things have improved or not. We must rely

export? (Mr. Coetzee) That is difficult to say. You know that in the case of tea we are dependent on the

mostly on an objective judgement. This season we thought that, judged by the overall appearance of the scheme and crops on the land , things had made appre-

Republican market . We sell all our tea through tea brokers in Johannesburg to the various firms which blend our tea with imported teas, so unfortunately

ciable progress but, as I have said , that is just an opinion . We cannot substantiate it by definite production figures for the yield of maize per hectare, the yield of wheat per hectare and so on, simply

the tea that we produce is not sold as such, simply because our volume of production has not reached the stage where we can venture it on our own and market our tea independently. At the moment, therefore, and this I foresee for a long time in the future,

because we have not got those statistics and it is difficult to obtain them because we are working with

the tea will be exported to the Republic and it will be consumed in the Republic. The same applies to

approximately 1 800 lesses, and to obtain this sort of statistic from them is extremely difficult, if not

coffee . It all depends on the volume of coffee

impossible . We are trying our best to supply the machinery and equipment and all the services that

produced . We could perhaps consider putting up a coffe factory here to process it further. We can

we are called upon to render to the lessees, but of course this only goes as far as ploughing for cash crops and cutting and raking and baling of lucerne hay. In other words, we are only responsible for

only take it up to the bean stage and then sell it as a raw bean to be further processed elsewhere. There is a coffee factory in East London where they roast it, but it could develop into a Transkeian

one portion of the total production . Most of the work, or the responsibility, is left to the individual lessees to fertilize properly, to use the proper seed , to

industry where you take the raw product and process it up to the final stage and market it in the Transkei. The same applies to tea, but it all depends

practise the necessary cultivation methods and so on

on the economics of the project. Personally, I think it would be wise to sell it or market it in the

and to reap the crops, so it depends mostly on the lessees as to what yield they obtain from the lands. If I may summarize, I regret to say that there has not been a marked increase in the production on the Qamata scheme . (Chairman) - Could you say

Republic . (Chairman) - With this selling of the products to the Republican tea merchants, what terms exist between the Transkei and those mer-

how the lessees are selected , because it would appear that you are not quite satisfied with the

chants? I am thinking now of if and when the time comes that the tea merchants decide not to buy, what will happen? (Mr. Coetzee) As far as the tea is concerned, we sell it to a reputable firm of tea brokers whom we are sure try to obtain the on

maximum, quality,

for

or

improvement here. Are you satisfied you are selec ting agriculturally inclined lessees for better production? (Mr. Coetzee) - Mr. Chairman, you know the irrigation schemes are controlled in terms of the Irrigation Proclamation R.5 of 1963. In terms of

a fair price anyway, judged

our

teas.

But here again I do

that proclamation the superintendent of the scheme has full authority over management of the scheme production, what to produce , when to produce , how to produce , on the selection of lessees, etc. Unfortunately, the provisions of that proclamation have never been enforced or carried out, but don't ask me

not know what the future holds. I would say that being relatively small producers we will have to rely on tea brokers or coffee brokers to obtain a fair price. All we can do is to ensure that we obtain a fair price for the quality of the tea or coffee we produce, but I am afraid we are not in a position, due to our limited production, to call the tune,

why. That was before my time , but ever since I have known this scheme at Qamata it has been extremely difficult to implement the proclamation , simply because there are vested interests . The tribal autho-

as it were. We must also remember that the amount of tea and coffee produced in the Republic is a very small percentage of the tea and coffee con-

rity has a very strong interest in the scheme and

sumption. Most of it is imported, so we must compete with the foreign producers and I am happy to say that we are enjoying a certain extent of protection · that is, the local producers - from the central Government .

only people from that location or, at the most, of that regional authority area can be settled on that irrigation scheme . Now, you know how strong the Bantu feel about the land and consequently it will call for a very strong authority to select settlers for an irrigation scheme on a proper basis. In other

PROBATIONER LESSEES - Paragraph 21 (8)

words, you will have to take a man, put him on his plot where he must prove himself. If he does not

17. Chairman) · At a previous session the Chief Minister in a Budget Speech referred to the extremely disappointing results at the Qamata irrigation scheme. Could you kindly inform the committee

prove himself he must be evicted and another person put in his place . As I have said, it is very difficult to achieve that sort of control and authority in a Bantu area, with the result that virtually no selection of settlers has taken place over all these years. As

whether the position has since improved and, if so, to what extent? (Mr. Coetzee) - Mr. Chairman, I

soon as an area is suitable to be settled then people

366

of that location in that vicinity apply through the headman for a plot, and we are not really in a position to say he is a potential settler or he is not a potential settler because the man has had no previous experience. He is raw, as it were, from a dryland area.

1½ morgen adjoining his present one which, of course , is a weakness. (Mr. Madikizela) - With your part of the bargain, do you advise these lessees what to grow? (Mr. Coetzee) - We definitely do that - what to

He knows nothing about irrigation, so we cannot practise a system of preselection before we settle

farmers is difficult . (Chief Ndamase) - Would it be difficult to extend these plots so that these lessees

these people on a probationer - lessee basis . Once he

can stay on the plot itself, instead of walking long distances from their kraals to the arable plots ? Mr.

grow, how to grow it · but to advise 1 800 individual

is there it is virtually impossible to get him off the scheme again. That is our problem - it is a matter of authority. (Chairman) - There is an element of finance in the running of this scheme, so I would like to ask to what extent your Department is responsible for financial assistance in the running of schemes like this. Is it a full or partial subsidy, or

Coetzee) - It would be difficult because we would have to surrender a large area of irrigable land . (Chief Ndamase) - How do they do it with the white lessees in white irrigation areas? (Mr. Coetzee) - They stay on their plots but then, of course, the area is limited to the absolute minimum. The crops are

As you know, we pay a grant of R40 to enable him to lessees to all probationer establish himself the first year. Thereafter the Depart-

growing almost up to the front door and the back

what? (Mr. Coetzee)

door, depending on what type of farming the man

ment assumes almost one hundred per cent responsibility for the supply of mechanical assistance. We must have the tractors and all the implements , trailers, the lot, to plough, plant and in some cases reap and transport the crops from the lands and so forth, and that runs into an appreciable amount because mechanization is very expensive these days . Of course, in addition to that, the extension officers are still there , for whom we also pay, so directly and indirectly there is quite a large investment in the management and running of the scheme. Apart from that, of course, it costs us between R3 000 and R3 500 per hectare to develop the land for irrigation . (Chairman) In view of such large sums being spent by your Department , you don't think the Department should have more say? (Mr. Coetzee) · I believe it very strongly, Mr. Chairman . (Chairman) - Otherwise we will have to keep on asking why production is not increasing. (Mr. Coetzee) - It is simply because we do not have control . (Chairman) - We are trying to drive you to this point. (Mr. Coetzee) - I do not think I am the first to admit that. (Chief Ndamase) - What is the extent of the plots? (Mr. Coetzee) - At the moment they are still about.1½ morgen. (Chief Ndamase) - Do the lessees live on the plots or have they kraals elsewhere? (Mr. Coetzee)· The residential area is on the perimeter of the irrigation lands . Unfortunately some

practises. If he practises irrigation farming only then he uses almost every inch of land . If he practises mixed farming he has dry land outside where he runs his livestock and so on, which is the case at Qamata, of course. There is also dry land attached to the irrigation land . (Chief Ndamase) - Don't you think they would do better if they resided on their plots ? (Mr. Coetzee) - If a lot of other things change they would do better, but just to make this one adaptation will not improve the old system appreciably. In fact, I think it will have the opposite effect. THEFTS AND IRREGULARITIES INVOLVING GOVERNMENT MONEYS AND PROPERTIES Paragraph 21 ( 11)

18. Chairman) - Could you please inform the committee on these points , Mr. Coetzee : - (a) Have there been any further developments in finalizing these cases? (We shall take them one by one .) (Mr. Coetzee) - To take case ( 11 ) (a) , as stated there this man was dismissed from the service and a small amount of R49 was recovered from him but since he has no assets it is virtually impossible to recover the outstanding balance of R1 118. Treasury approval has already been obtained to write this off as irrecoverable. There is nothing we can do about this . ( Rev. · Was it not possible to retain the services of this particular man so as to recover this amount from him? (Mr. Coetzee) · We could saddle ourselves with really difficult cases because if a man is employed Vika)

of them stay, in my opinion , too far away from the lands. That is a problem too, but as things are the size of the area of 1½ morgen is perhaps too small in the sense that you cannot mechanize and properly cultivate 1½ morgen of land when it is situated in a large area or irrigated land . It is too big in the sense that without your mechanical assistance the settlers cannot manage 1½ morgen of intensive irrigation land the way they should . On top of that, of course, between 30% and 40% of the male settlers are not on the scheme, which is also not allowed in terms of the proclamation . Nobody is allowed to be away from his plot for longer than fourteen days. (Rev. Vika) - Is there no provision for a progressive lessee to get two plots? (Mr. Coetzee) - There is, but the problem is that we cannot guarantee that he will get his second

367

and he knows that his employment is continued simply for the Government to recover losses of state money, then I think you can imagine yourself what the attitude of such a person will be . In this case it was a driver/operator who cannot be used in any other capacity than in driving expensive equipment and machines . I think in cases like that, from a disciplinary point of view it is much better to cut your losses and get rid of the man before he causes more damage . If you work on this basis it is , of course , the best assurance the man has for continued employment but it can cause all sorts of complications. (Chairman) - In regard to (b) and (c) , may we know

improvements at the logmills such as fencing, employing guards at the gates and so on will add much more to the cost of the whole matter than what we will

if these thefts were perpetrated over extended periods and, if so, whether this was the result of lack of internal checks and controls? (Mr. Coetzee) - In the case of (b) it was actually two people involved there. It was a clerk and a forester at one of our logmills and when this irregularity was discovered in the process of a check the clerk resigned and disappeared before he

lose through occasional thefts like this. I can assure you that since this case was brought to light the staff at the mill are doing their utmost to prevent similar incidents, but I must at the same time inform you and

could be apprehended . The

The case against the forester was proceeded with. He was convicted in the magistrate's court of theft and

admit that it is impossible to make the control absolutely watertight to prevent a re-occurrence of this. Case (d) was a semi-skilled labourer who was in charge of a plantation at Butterworth. There again he falsified receipts , was convicted and he is serving his term of imprisonment at the moment . We were not informed of the date of the hearing of the case

ordered to refund the amount, but he appealed against the judgment and his appeal was upheld so he went scot-free . In the meantime our Department instituted a case of misconduct against

so that we could ask for repayment of the amount stolen, so he is now serving his sentence . We have gone into the matter to find out whether he has any attachable assets but he has none , so I am afraid

him and he is still under suspension. His case of misconduct was heard and he was found guilty

we will not be able to recover that amount from him.

forester was suspended from service pending investigations. Now, when investigations started the clerk, as I have said, had disappeared and they could not trace him so he could not be brought to justice.

There again it is a matter of checking. These checks on the individual plantations are made by the district forester and it is done monthly or, in some cases where they are far away from banking facilities,

by the investigator. He lodged an appeal against his conviction to the Public Service Commission and the case has still not been finalized so there is still a possibility that the amount of R559 can be

fortnightly more to collect moneys to be paid in to the bank. Due to distances to be travelled , the time

recovered from his pension and other assets held by the Department. In the case of the clerk , he reappeared and we informed the police of his where-

involved to make a really thorough investigation and

abouts . We asked the police to lay a charge against him but nothing was done , and at a later date we again informed them of this man's whereabouts , and

so on, it is not always easy to discover an irregularity like this soon enough. This one was rather clever in his way of doing things and he got away with it long enough to rob the Government of R425.

again asked them to investigate this matter, but so far nothing has happened . (Chairman · How often are these checks carried out? (Mr. Coetzee ) - As

I cannot quote you the number of individual points in the whole of the Transkei, but this is, I would say, less than 1% of all the checking points which has gone wrong here . (Chairman ) - Is it possible to have the applicants to your Department screened for honesty, or do you just take them at face value ? · (Mr. Coetzee) It is virtually impossible to have everybody screened , as it were . We could at most ask for a police report, but even that takes a long time to obtain and we must just take the chance and rely on the integrity of the person . (Chairman) - Is there a system between the government departments

I said, this happened at one of the logmills which forms part of the sawmill complex. These checks are made from time to time . I do not think there is a set time · say, monthly or bi-monthly. The logmills are expected to submit monthly returns, but due to the scarcity of trained men to investigate this matter properly at the various mills it is possible that cases like this can go undetected for quite a considerable time. It is only when the officials at the sawmill go to make a thorough investigation and check at these mills that they can really bring these things to light . This whole matter has been the sub-

to interchange experienced staff where one department is short of trusted and honest people at the time? (Mr. Coetzee) - Yes , that of course is the function of the Public Service Commission to regu· late that sort of exchange in the administrative staff,

ject of a lot of discussion and correspondence between my Department and the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , and certain suggestions were made by the Department of Finance to make

of course . (Rev. Vika) - Just as a matter of interest on an item that is not here - Paragraph 21 ( 3)(d) Eradication of noxious weeds - I just want to know where this eradication is taking place . (Mr. Coetzee) · Most of our efforts are concentrated on the Kei

the whole case a little more watertight to tighten up control . However, after officers of the Department of Finance together with our officers had gone into this matter and had thrashed it out thoroughly they came to the conclusion that although there are

Valley and in the Kentani , Willowvale and Elliotdale districts. We are mostly concerned with the eradication of lantana and jointed cactus. Jointed cactus is really the most difficult one and we are a bit worried about the spread of lantana because it is spreading

weaknesses in the set-up as it is at the moment it is the best that can be done under the circumstances. It may not sound very satisfactory , perhaps, to your committee but I can assure you that this whole thing has been gone into very, very carefully and if this whole matter should be made absolutely watertight the costs in terms of manpower , salaries, additional

all over the Transkei . Nothing is done about it . I can perhaps mention that in terms of section 25( 1 ) of Act No. 10 of 1966, which is our agricultural Act,

368

staff and certain facilities a minimum standard of buildings and equipment and so on, which all costs a lot of money. Now, if you have a factory like that and you can put, say, a hundred head of stock through that factory with the facilities you have it will cost you less per unit of the product you pro-

every occupier of land is responsible for the eradication of the noxious weeds on his land, so primarily it is the responsibility of the occupier or owner of the land . The Department only assists where the problem reaches such an extent that the occupier or owner cannot cope with it. Then we step in and assist by employing people to get rid of the weeds .

duce than when you put only 50 head of cattle through the same establishment. That is why the volume of the turnover is so very important for any

TRANSKEI MEAT INDUSTRY - Page 20 - Paragraph

commercial undertaking, because of the relatively high fixed overhead costs involved in this. There again I am coming back to the supply of livestock and that is a very important reason why they could

23(2) . 19. Chairman) - It is observed , Mr. Cotzee, that the scheme is still operating at a loss. Could you please inform the committee what the prospects are of reversing these

losses?

up till now not show a profit on the whole undertaking. You must remember that during 1973/74 the Bantu farmers sold about one per cent of their livestock. Of the total cattle population only one per cent was marketed . You must remember that the

(Mr. Coetzee) - This is

another difficult matter, Mr. Chairman. Like any commercial undertaking the profitability depends on the availability of the market for the products of that undertaking and also the volume of turnover of that undertaking. There is also the difference between the cost and sale price of the products. The Transkei Meat Industry depends very heavily on

meat industry must compete with any purchaser on the sales where the livestock are offered for sale . They are not the only purchasers, so that they cannot purchase these animals at their own price. Of the one per cent marketed, therefore, only a fraction of that was really purchased by the meat industry

livestock supplied from the Transkei itself and the industry must develop its own markets. Now, meat is a perishable product and you cannot carry it

at competitive prices , and I can assure you that the meat industry pays very, very reasonable prices. In fact, they are under an obligation to purchase an

indefinitely unless you can it. In the fresh form it is perishable and therefore it must be sold as quickly as possible . In order to do that and guarantee an assured market they must arrange for contracts to sell most of their meat under contract . Once they

animal, no matter what the condition of that animal, if the farmer wants to sell it on the basis of weight and grade . So sometimes they must purchase animals which can be termed "risky". That, of course , also

have entered into a contract they must honour that

reflects on the profitability . For instance , measles in cattle is a very definite problem in the Transkei . Now, if an animal is slaughtered and the carcass inspected and it is found that it is not sound - the animal could have been sick or it is infected with measles · then that carcass must be destroyed and it

contract and therefore they must be assured of a minimum number of livestock in order to supply the products they have contracted for. In the past the support received from the Transkeian farmers or stockowners was not up to expectation , with the result that in order to fulfil their contracts the meat

is a total loss to the TMI because they purchased it and paid for it and the farmer loses nothing. In cases of mild infection of measles they freeze the carcass for a certain time and the meat is sold , but I think

industry had to import livestock from outside the Transkei to make up the volume of meat they had to supply. Another thing is that the supply of livestock is also very seasonal in the Transkei . People mostly sell during February to April , with the result that the industry must carry a large number of livestock to supply them with slaughter stock during the

about 8% of the carcasses they handle are condemned for measles , for animals having been sick and so on, and that loss the TMI must carry.

rest of the year. In the process quite a number of stock are lost through deaths and so on, and it

RELIEF MEASURES - Paragraph 23(3)

costs the industry quite a sum of money to maintain these livestock at various centres throughout the

20. Chairman) - Mr. Coetzee , could you please inform the committee of the reasons for the slow rate

Transkei. They must appoint staff to look after the livestock, they hire the land from the Government

of payment of the outstanding balances? (Mr. Coetzee) - Chairman, this refers to ploughing debts. As you know, this has been going on for a long time and in an effort to finalize this matter the Depart-

and on top of that they must feed the animals during winter in order to keep them in good condition. They must also run the risk of stock losses . All those things again add to the cost price of the beast. the day it enters the abattoir to be slaughtered , so if

ment has asked the magistrates to issue writs to all those who still owe money under this ploughing scheme. It turned out that many of these people have died in the meantime . Some are widows and

they paid R110 for that beast, by the time it is slaughtered the basic cost of that beast can be R120 or more. That reflects on the profit they make on the whole venture . Furthermore , they have a certain overhead cost structure . To come back to the volume of

many others do not have any attachable assets , so that it is virtually impossible to recover the outstanding debts . Where people who were debtors have any attachable assets the magistrates take care of

turnover again, they must have a certain number of

369

that and they will recover the outstanding debts , but

have a better picture of accidents. A tractor and a

we have asked the messengers of the court in cases

trailer are regarded as one unit, but they are two items. If an accident happens to the trailer it is

where people have died and have no attachable assets to return nulla bona returns just to certify that

reported as an accident and if an accident happens to the tractor it is reported as an accident . If an accident happens to both at the same time you then have two accidents. The reason for the increased accident

these people have nothing. We intend to approach Treasury in such cases for Treasury approval to have the outstanding debts written off as bad debts. In the meantime this whole thing is presenting a com-

figure is firstly the increase in the number of vehicles.

pletely wrong picture because the interest is cal-

To give you some idea , the Transport Branch controls 780 vehicles and the distance travelled by those

culated on the outstanding amount, and that is fictitious interest and an irrecoverable amount, so instead of continuing with this for years to come,

vehicles during the year 1971/72 was 7 996 456 km. In 1972/73 the distance travelled was 10 632 920 km - an increase of approximately 33%. Now, if you take the increase in the number of vehicles and compare

while we know for certain that it will be impossible to recover it , we have decided now to try to call a halt to this and get matters settled once and for all , but it will involve a considerable loss to the Govern-

it with the number of accidents you will find that there were roughly 25 accidents more than the year

ment.

before, so there is still an aincrese in accidents. The

Thursday, 4th April 1974 (at 9.30 a.m.) Present : Messrs . W. S. Mbanga (Chairman, D.J. Ndleleni, R. Madikizela, Rev. G.T. Vika.

reason is the quality of the drivers. Take e.g., an officer appointed to the public service. He has a driver's licence and his work requires him to be able

picture is not so black, but it is still bad. Another

to drive, but he is not tested by us. You will find that most of these accidents happen with people

Messrs. D.C.T. van Dyk, Assistant Chief

Raods and Works (accompanied by C.L. de J. Loubser, Assistant Secretary) , W.Z.

who are inexperienced in driving. In other words. their profession is not driving, and that must be taken into account . Then, of course, there is the use of intoxicating liquor, which is one of the common

Lusu, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly and M.D. Ndibongo, Assistant Secretary, in attendance.

causes, and also excessive speed . A tachograph is a recording machine which is fixed to a vehicle , and it is locked . This gives detailed information about the

-

journey travelled , speed , what gear the vehicle was in if an accident takes place and it is accepted in a court of law as evidence . However, these instruments cost

Auditor (accompanied by G.C. van Zyl and J.D. Bam) , P. Jager, Secretary for

VORE

6

DEPARTMENT

OF ROADS AND

WORKS (Page 14) – Paragraph 22(3)(b) .ACCIDENTS

R170 and you cannot fit them to every vehicle . Then there is the matter of the increase in the cost of

9. (Chairman) - We refer this to Mr. Jager. It is observed that the number of accidents increased by

repairs, also due to the price of spare parts which has increased considerably. Some have risen by over

95 as compared with the previous year, while the total net loss increased by R21 390. Could you

42% whilst the average is 27% . The cost of labour has gone up too, so every year, even if you have the same number of accidents , the cost must go up. The next

kindly elaborate on this unhealthy state of affairs and also inform the committee of the reasons for this

question was in regard to the steps taken to remedy the position. It is difficult to put officials through a training school for drivers, but the transport drivers who are professional drivers are put through a training school. We cannot force other departments, but all drivers in our department go through a training

and the steps taken to remedy the position? (Mr. Jager) - Before I reply to this, Mr. Chairman , I would like to give you some information as background. The number of accidents reflected here (302) includes accidents to vehicles and plant, but only the number of vehicles is reflected in this list. In other words, if you compare the number of accidents with the number of vehicles you will gain the wrong impression. To the number of vehicles - that is , 1 128 - should be added the figure of 353, giving a total of 1 481. If you then divide the total 1 481 into the total cost of the accident repairs , which is R48 663, an amount of approximately R33 per vehicle per year is arrived at, which in itself is not high. However, I agree that the number of accidents is very high . As far as the accidents are concerned , however, any little

course of three to six months and they are thoroughly trained . After that they have to write an examination and undergo a test . That is one of the ways we use to get more experienced drivers, to enable them to enable them to handle plant more carefully and so prevent accidents . Another means of preventing accidents is through the use of the Alcotester (breathalyser). If a man is suspected of being under the influence he is tested with the Alcotester and if proved to be intoxicated he is penalised in

thing that happens to a vehicle is reported . If a

terms

driver scrapes his car it is reported as an accident so if we could divide these into serious and not serious

is now being passed through parliament to make the Transkei Traffic Act uniform with the rest of the

accidents we would have a very different picture . I ave given this information in order that you may

370

of P.S.C. regulations. Furthermore , a Bill

Republic. In the Bill it is laid down that the alcohol content of the blood (reduced from 0,15% to 0,08%)

may not exceed 0.08g/ 100ml. If it is higher than that the man can be convicted of driving under the influence. The Transkeian traffic police , too, are now

they obtain that very valuable certificate for a qualified technician. All the posts for professional

on the road and they have been instructed to watch out specially for XG vehicles and to check them for roadworthiness and to look out for XG drivers com-

engineers in my department are vacant. We simply cannot get these people. We have two graduate Transkeian citizens training to become registered

mitting traffic offences. If a driver appears not to

practical work with us and once they have passed

traffic police came on to the roads in January this

professional engineers and we hope to get them back in two years' time. After obtaining a B.Sc. Engineering degree graduate engineers have to do three

year and from this month we will have speed-trapping devices on the road. One of the most modern devices ,

years' training which we cannot offer in our department, so they are with selected firms of consulting

called "Speed Guard", will be used . It is not a gatsometer and it is not radar, but it is a fantastic instrument and the man who controls it is not even at

engineers operating in the Transkei. Once they are registered as professional engineers we will have two

handle the vehicle properly he is stopped. These

the instrument. It is set for the speed limit, but how it works further I am not prepared to divulge , except that if a driver exceeds the speed limit an alarm is sounded. That is all I can offer, Mr. Chairman , in the way of preventive measures against accidents. (Mr. Madikizela) After this course of training for drivers, do you find a marked improvement in the proficiency of the driver? (Mr. Jager) Yes, this course we are giving is not only for newly-appointed drivers , when a man is appointed he must have a heavy-duty licence , but that is not enough for us, he also goes through our own course and we find definite improvement . Mind you, if the man drinks anything we do goes by the board. However, you can usually notice it at once and if he is suspected of being under the influence the Alcotester is used . (Rev. Vika) - How much use of the Alcotester is being made? (Mr. Jager) - During the course of the past week, I think it was used three times in our offices. It is used regularly and is available at all roads depots .

engineers in our department. White engineers are impossible to get. The Department of Bantu Administration advertises for Whites and the Public Service Commission for Blacks. However, these young black engineers are paid more by the consultants than a white engineer with one year's training in the Public Service, so the question is whether or not they will return to the Transkei service. I see them regularly and urge them to return to Transkei service after registration. (Rev. Vika) - Have these people been sent by us for training? (Mr. Jager) - Yes, and they have signed contracts , but a contract is there to break. The best of the trained technicians of whom I had great hopes has left the service because he was dissatisfied with the salary he was receiving. Salary scales are laid down by the Public Service Commision , although I shouldn't criticise another department . (Rev. Vika) - Is he in one of our departments? (Mr. Jager) - No, he is in the Transvaal with a firm of contractors. I should also mention that we train apprentices as motor mechanics, plumbers, metal-

EXCESS PROVISION IN RELATION TO ULTIEXPENDITURE MATE Paragraph 22(4)

workers , electricians, carpenters and so on . This year an Apprenticeship Act will be passed through parliament, so in a few years' time you will have qualified men. (Mr. Lusu) - I happen to know of the particular case mentioned. The man concerned was not put on the salary scale of a qualified technician. (Mr. Jager) -

10. (Chairman) - Mr. Jagar, in the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and vote the following remarks appear:- "Sub-head A - Saving mainly due to the fact that vacancies in connection with administrative and technical posts could not be filled ." Could you please inform the committee what steps, if any, have been taken to attract and , where

When he came back after doing his final theoretical

necessary, train suitable candidates for these po-

not complied with that at the time . Once he had

sitions? (Mr. Jager) - Mr. Chairman, there were 127 vacant posts, adminstrative and technical, that could not be filled . To fill these vacancies every effort was

completed his six months' practical training the Public Service Commission put up his salary, but he still was not satisfied . (Mr. Ndleleni) - Is this scale for the probationary period laid down and did he know

made to find people in the ranks of our own department and other departments, and applications which were received were referred to the Public Service Commission for appointment. The P.S.C. are the main recruiting body and we have to look to them for staff. They advertise the posts and broadcast over Radio Bantu , but we have still not been able to fill these posts. Technical posts are impossible to fill unless we train our own people and that is what we are doing. We send people to such places as Mmadikoti Technical College in the Transvaal. At present we have twelve students there , of whom three are in their final year. They then do their final

course at the college he was not fully qualified . A technician is not qualified until he has done satisfactory practical training for six months and he had

he would be paid that amount? (Mr. Jager) - There is a scale laid down , but I do not think I should answer questions on scales. That is for the Public Service Commission. (Rev. Vika) - I think the point we are trying to make is that we are supposed to penetrate all departments. Now, if we get something from you it might help us to influence other departments. Firstly we have establsihed that the man left because he was not satisfied with the salary scale offered . Is it possible for our Government to offer a comparative scale to try to attract these men (Mr. Jager) - I cannot reply to that, Mr. Chairman.

371

What happens is that these people compare themselves with clerks - a matriculant with four years'

between the employers and the Government that these people must work on full pay, but attention must be given to the improvement of their know-how by giving them these three days of practical work

training, for instance - but after four years I don't think they get the same as a clerk after four years' service . Do you know, Mr. Loubser? (Mr. Loubser) I am not sure, I haven't got the figures . (Chairman) Each time there is a discussion on these votes I feel

and two of theory. Those who do not fit into the job are replaced. I do not know if the information I have submitted is of any use to this committee, but I have

personally guilty, because in 1965 I received a scholar-

had a talk with the Education Department on these

ship to the U.K. on condition I would have to plough back the knowledge I acquired . I never had the opportunity to do this and I am saying this now because one of the courses I attended was on apprenticeship, which Mr. Jager mentioned. I want to

things. Mr. Kakana has been on a course elsewhere and I have been overseas, and he has included some of

catch on to this thing because I thought it belonged to this committee now that it has been mentioned . I

these points in his report. However, I do not know to what extent the department would consider and recommend the dovetailing of some of the information which fits in here with other departments. (Mr. Jager) - I think we are doing exactly the same ,

saw how it was applied and again in 1972 I had occasion to watch this in West Germany and also in Switzerland and Italy. There the departments are

but we do not have these two days of theory and three days of practical work, apprentices go to the technical college for six months' training and then

not fragmented, but the Government sees that the departments dovetail the services and apprenticeship courses are graded from the lower schools to a stage where , when they are ready to enter secondary schools, they are channelled along their strong sub-

they have six months of practical training in the workshops. (Chairman) - How long has this been

jects to satisfy the needs of the country . They do not follow courses chosen by the parents but are guided by government advisers and technical advisers . • Along those lines they can advance, taking practical as well as academic lessons. They can go to university and end there with degrees that way. In this way inservice courses are allowed to be taken in shifts of

first year and others cannot cope with the theory. In the first year we had five drop-outs, but it was discovered that two of them had a penchant for

practical and theoretical work, three days a week on the job and the other two days at lectures for the same kind of work. In that way they do not suffer as we do according to sub-head L where it is stated that saving was due to the continued shortage of skilled staff resulting in maintenance work, etc. , not being carried out according to plan. There would be a continuity of employees based on an agreement

3 1

372

operating? (Mr. Jager) - Since last year. We started earlier but the technical college was not ready for us until last year. You find you get drop-outs in the

panel-beating. The rest had to go because they were not suited for that particular trade . (Mr. Ndleleni) Have those vacancies been filled? (Mr. Jager) - Yes, At present we have 33 apprentice electricians . (Chairman) - In your personal opinion don't you think the alternative of following two or three days a week of study would suit them better, because they would earn money in that way? (Mr. Jager) - They are earning money all the time. I think they should do the course as they are doing now at Mmadikoti. It is better for the teachers too , because what can they do on the other two days? It doesn't dovetail .

t

3

BIADE HECKMAN BINDERY INC.

Б

DEC 84 N. MANCHESTER, INDIANA 46962

ALF Collections Vault

3 0000 139 907 939

988